131: ‘If Only the Death Star Had That’ With Guest Rene Ritchie

0:00:00Oh man, what a day.

0:00:02Yeah, crazy.

0:00:03We are recording on Wednesday the 16th show, probably be out tomorrow.

0:00:08Wow, what's even happened so far today?

0:00:12So far today, watchOS 2.0 has been postponed indefinitely.

0:00:17My guess is for a few days due to some sort of last minute bug that has popped up

0:00:23and which Apple is not describing.

0:00:26- Yeah, it doesn't sound like a user-facing bug though.

0:00:27It sounds more like a developer-facing bug.

0:00:30- Do you think so?

0:00:31- Yeah, and if you're on the GM or if you're on the beta,

0:00:34you don't have any reason to be concerned about anything.

0:00:37But if you remember last year,

0:00:38I think there were problems with extension signing

0:00:41and then with the health kit apps,

0:00:42and it took them a week or so to figure those out.

0:00:44- I was wondering if maybe it was some kind of bug

0:00:46that affects the upgrade process.

0:00:48- Maybe, I mean, the beta upgrade worked fine.

0:00:51And it just, it seemed more like a not front-facing issue

0:00:55they're a front-facing issue.

0:00:57- Yeah.

0:00:57I don't know though.

0:01:02It's hard to say, but I think anybody who wants to complain,

0:01:05bugs happen.

0:01:07I mean, it's a hell of a lot better for Apple

0:01:09to find a bug before it ships.

0:01:11And obviously it's a little embarrassing for them

0:01:13to have pre-announced the date and then have to yank it.

0:01:16But compare and contrast with the,

0:01:18what was it, 9.0.1 last year?

0:01:23- Yeah, 8.0.1.

0:01:24- Oh, 8.0.1, nine is this year, no.

0:01:26I, God damn it.

0:01:28- No, it's, might as well be a Monday.

0:01:30- Remember the 8.0.1 last year came out

0:01:34and it didn't break everybody's phone,

0:01:36but for some subset of users

0:01:37who were downloading it over the air,

0:01:39it temporarily bricked their--

0:01:42- It killed touch ID and it killed LTE.

0:01:44So if you were Jessie Chari,

0:01:45you noticed no problems whatsoever,

0:01:46but if you're anyone else, you had issues.

0:01:49- Wait, she doesn't get LTE?

0:01:51- I don't think she uses her phone as a phone.

0:01:53- I think it was just the phone call part.

0:01:54- Oh, I got you.

0:01:56Right, but her fingers did not register.

0:01:58What else has happened today?

0:02:02So iOS 9 is rolling out as we speak.

0:02:06- Yes.

0:02:06- And one interesting thing you mentioned

0:02:09before the show started,

0:02:09it does have a different build number than the GM

0:02:12that Apple distributed, was that last week?

0:02:16- Yeah, the GM is 40 and the release version is 44.

0:02:21So obviously something minor at least in there changed.

0:02:24So far so good on that from what I've seen.

0:02:27- Yeah, absolutely, and if you do have the GM,

0:02:28you'll get a software update.

0:02:30It's very small, it's a few megabytes,

0:02:31I think 100 megabytes or something.

0:02:33- Yeah.

0:02:34Content blockers are rolling out,

0:02:38which I think is going to be a major,

0:02:41it's just interesting to see how this is going to be

0:02:45because this is the sort of thing that is going to change

0:02:49a lot for people like me and you, maybe, I don't know.

0:02:54- And it's also the only sort of app

0:02:56that you can really look for this year.

0:02:57I mean last year there was all sorts,

0:02:58there were share extensions and action extensions

0:03:00and widgets and the only really big new kind of app

0:03:03you can get this year is Content Blocker.

0:03:05So they're gonna get featured more than anything else.

0:03:07- Right, in terms of, and it's funny too,

0:03:09and I'll get to it because you've written

0:03:12a massive, massive review.

0:03:14But it does, it's one of those things though

0:03:16that makes it hard to judge these OS releases

0:03:21by based on, even if you just assume that the GM is good,

0:03:25you know, is real, it's hard to judge the OS as a whole

0:03:29until after it ships and you have some time to use it

0:03:33with the real world stuff that ships.

0:03:36In other words, nobody's gonna really form

0:03:38a serious opinion of iOS 9 until after

0:03:43the content blockers have come out

0:03:44and people have picked the ones they want, if any,

0:03:47and see how that affects their usage.

0:03:49And there was ways to beta test them beforehand,

0:03:51but it's like maybe you didn't get to beta test all of them.

0:03:55- And you and I discussed this about the watch too,

0:03:57like just testing complications

0:03:58and how much that would actually change your workflow.

0:04:00It's gonna be very different.

0:04:02- Yeah, I thought the same thing

0:04:03and I don't have any beta apps.

0:04:05I don't even know if that was possible with the watch.

0:04:07So I have been playing with watchOS 2.0 for a few weeks now,

0:04:12but I haven't written anything about it

0:04:15because I don't see how I can judge it

0:04:18until after the complications come out.

0:04:20And really, frankly, even just native apps in general

0:04:25on the watch and see if it solves some of the,

0:04:28just so slow to launch problems that we've seen

0:04:33with the WatchKit 1.0 watch.

0:04:35- Yeah, whether it's like slow apps

0:04:37or whether the watch isn't the same kind of app platform

0:04:39that maybe the phone or the tablet were.

0:04:41- Yeah, it's just impossible for me at least

0:04:44to make a judgment of it until after this shakes out

0:04:49and we live with it for a while.

0:04:50- Me calling what I write reviews is kind of half a lie

0:04:52'cause most of them are just trying to explain

0:04:54how things work and how you can juggle the different options.

0:04:56- Yeah, I thought of that too

0:04:58'cause I linked to your review at iMore,

0:05:00your iOS 9 review, and it just says iOS 9 review.

0:05:04And at this point, you're nine versions in

0:05:07to writing these things.

0:05:08You might as well not change it now.

0:05:10But review, it sells it short in some ways,

0:05:15and it's misleading in others,

0:05:17because it's not really, review sort of is like,

0:05:19is this good, is this bad?

0:05:20And there's obviously some of that,

0:05:22but it's really more just like, I don't know,

0:05:25like everything you would wanna know about IO-Sign.

0:05:30- Yeah, I'm just fascinated about the technology.

0:05:32- Yeah.

0:05:33Well, but you do more than just the technology, though.

0:05:35You absolutely write about it

0:05:39from the perspective of the experience.

0:05:43Like it's one thing to just say here,

0:05:44now you can do this and that.

0:05:47But yours is more, look, I've been banging on this thing

0:05:51for months, living with it, and here's what it's like.

0:05:56Here's not just a list of what's new in the Notes app,

0:05:59for example, here's what this enables you to do with it.

0:06:03It turns it into a totally different app now.

0:06:05- Yeah, absolutely.

0:06:07- Just to name one example.

0:06:08So when did you start using iOS 9 full time?

0:06:13- Well, you made fun of me the day of the event

0:06:16'cause I showed you that I put it on my phone already.

0:06:19- That was WWDC.

0:06:21- Yes.

0:06:22And I put it on my carry and immediately,

0:06:25I had no data signal and it took me a while

0:06:27to get that working.

0:06:28- Well, I think this year was actually

0:06:30a pretty good one for that.

0:06:33It's funny if anybody would have reason to install it right on day one and start living

0:06:39with it, it would be someone like you or Federico, somebody who's planning on writing one of

0:06:46these comprehensive, and I mean it sincerely, I mean book-length reviews of it, and you

0:06:52know the rough timeline.

0:06:54And again, this year we can talk about the fact that Apple's not having an October event.

0:07:00The October event was always the one,

0:07:02if there's only gonna be one event,

0:07:03that's the one that was gonna be dropped

0:07:05because September is just sort of set in stone

0:07:08for the phones.

0:07:09I mean, and again, you never know.

0:07:10Something unforeseen could happen that would delay it,

0:07:13but it was a pretty good bet that iOS 9 was gonna ship

0:07:18sometime in the first two weeks of September.

0:07:21- Yeah, absolutely.

0:07:22I mean, this event going all the way back to the iPod days

0:07:24is the holiday event for Apple,

0:07:25where they set up everything that they expect

0:07:27everyone's gonna buy for the holidays.

0:07:28- Yeah, yeah.

0:07:29even back to when they called it the music events.

0:07:31- Yeah.

0:07:32- You know, and it would just be, you know,

0:07:33before the iPhone, it was this is when new iPods came out

0:07:36and, you know, sometimes there'd be like a,

0:07:40it would be weird, sometimes there'd be like a iWork

0:07:42or something like that.

0:07:43- Yeah, and they occasionally, like I think they had

0:07:44the first Unibody Mac event in October,

0:07:46but those were always, they weren't regular for a while.

0:07:49They would just be when they had something to talk about.

0:07:50- Right.

0:07:51So anyway, somebody like you who wants to write down,

0:07:53how many words was your review?

0:07:54How many words?

0:07:55- Like 22,000.

0:07:56- So there you go.

0:07:57And that's, again, that might be short for a book,

0:08:00but if you printed it out,

0:08:01it's a lot more book length than it is article length.

0:08:05- Yeah, I did take stuff out,

0:08:06like I took out stuff

0:08:07that I thought was only developer appropriate

0:08:08or was getting too far into the nitty gritty,

0:08:10so I did cut a lot as well.

0:08:11I just wanted to keep it small book length.

0:08:14- I mean, like a typical,

0:08:16I mean, it's hard to say what's typical these days

0:08:18with the way stuff gets cut,

0:08:20but something like a 4,000 word article,

0:08:22if you're doing, like a freelance writer,

0:08:24that's like a feature article in a magazine for length.

0:08:27and I think books obviously range in thickness greatly.

0:08:30But I think once you're measuring in the tens of thousands,

0:08:33it's book length or booklet length rather than article.

0:08:37- And iOS 8 is, sorry, iOS 9 is deceptive.

0:08:39So I already did our Coles Notes version,

0:08:41like this is the important stuff you need to know,

0:08:42and I think that hit four, 6,000 words,

0:08:44just doing the rough take.

0:08:47- That's pretty amazing.

0:08:49I think in broad terms,

0:08:52I think everybody keeps trying to set the stage

0:08:57that everybody who's writing about it

0:08:59is trying to set the stage.

0:09:00Just the basic expectation,

0:09:02like for somebody who hasn't really been paying attention

0:09:04all summer, which is actually not a bad way to go

0:09:07if you're a lay person.

0:09:08Take a look, take a listen at WWDC,

0:09:10think about what interests you.

0:09:12Tune out for the summer and wait to see what actually ships

0:09:15because sometimes stuff drops and stuff like that.

0:09:18But everybody trying to give people the lay of the land,

0:09:20the basic gist is, okay, this is not like a radical upgrade

0:09:22like Iowa 7, this is a year over year thing,

0:09:25which is fair enough.

0:09:26I don't disagree with that, but I don't think we're ever going to see an iOS 7 update again

0:09:33for iOS.

0:09:34I think iOS 7 was where they reset to a foundation to build on for years, I mean decades to come,

0:09:45I think.

0:09:46Yeah, I know I agree.

0:09:47I mean if you look back in hindsight, maybe some of it was serendipitous, maybe some of

0:09:50it was planned, but you couldn't get to iOS 9 without iOS 7 and iOS 8.

0:09:55You needed the kind of an interface that could go through

0:09:57the size class changes that could go from being a regular

0:10:00to one of the smaller size classes.

0:10:04And you needed, so much of iOS 9 is built on extensibility.

0:10:08And I remember we talked last year about how transformative

0:10:11extensibility could be, that it was literally uncoupling

0:10:14features from apps.

0:10:16It was setting them free from the binary and they're doing

0:10:18everything from content blockers to Safari view controller

0:10:20to the gameplay recording is to a lot of the privacy stuff

0:10:23all being done through extensibility.

0:10:25And all the search stuff is being done through continuity

0:10:27because they're indexing our activity

0:10:29so they can take us back to it.

0:10:30They can use it as a reminder.

0:10:31It's all coming together really well in iOS 9.

0:10:34- Yeah, I think so.

0:10:36But a lot of that really comes back to resetting,

0:10:39just resetting the table for iOS 7

0:10:46and saying let's get back to somewhere

0:10:48where we can build on and they knew where they needed to go.

0:10:50And some of that is just purely engineering

0:10:53and it didn't require necessarily a visual refresh,

0:10:56you know, like size classes and extensibility.

0:10:59Obviously they could have done extensibility

0:11:01with the old look, I mean it's nothing.

0:11:03But I think it was worth it for them

0:11:07and I think this is the way they thought about it.

0:11:08It was worth it to do all this resetting at once

0:11:12and then build from there.

0:11:14- Yeah, I agree.

0:11:15I mean I just can't even imagine green felt

0:11:17or wood paneling changing from compact

0:11:20to regular size class on an iPad with split view.

0:11:22- Yeah, I mean, and now look at Mac OS X.

0:11:25I think Mac OS X is a good comparison.

0:11:28And it has had, there have been a few times over the years

0:11:30where there's been a more significant visual refresh

0:11:33than others.

0:11:35Last year would be, for example, with Yosemite

0:11:38going to a more, it's again, not really iOS 7 lookalike,

0:11:43but more like, looks like a sibling to iOS 7.

0:11:47And a few years before that, there was the one

0:11:51where they got rid of all the metal

0:11:53and having two different window types,

0:11:57the aqua windows and the brushed metal windows.

0:11:59But those weren't radical, right?

0:12:04I don't, I think Yosemite maybe was arguably,

0:12:07but none of the previous ones really were radical

0:12:11in terms of having the sort of controversy

0:12:13that iOS 7 really, almost the upheaval

0:12:17and the wow, this looks all together

0:12:18different sort of reaction.

0:12:20And I think iOS 7, I think that this look,

0:12:23I think it will evolve over time.

0:12:25Everything gets stale and fashions change.

0:12:27And obviously even just the system font this year changed.

0:12:30So it'll evolve and there might be some year coming

0:12:32where there's a more significant change

0:12:35than in recent times.

0:12:37But I really think that part of the plan

0:12:39with the iOS 7 look and going to a much more simpler

0:12:43and unadorned overall look was to get to something

0:12:50that's a little bit less about trendiness

0:12:53and a little bit more towards a design that's timeless.

0:12:58Specifically so that they don't have to do things

0:13:02like that again and that they can just keep iterating

0:13:04like they have this year.

0:13:06- I agree completely.

0:13:06I look at it almost in architectural terms

0:13:08and it's just got great bones now

0:13:10and they can build out some differences.

0:13:11They can put in San Francisco and it refreshes everything.

0:13:14Or if they decide not to wait for Quantum Dot panels

0:13:17and they go with OLED panels and they need a night theme

0:13:19because that's better on OLED.

0:13:20They can add all that in, but the structure, the physics,

0:13:23the playfulness of iOS that they've built now,

0:13:26I think that's a really long-lasting platform.

0:13:28- Yeah, and I think it was definitely the intention,

0:13:30and I think part of it is just the simple fact

0:13:33that even with their vast resources now,

0:13:36that a lot of the teams at Apple are still relatively small.

0:13:40Johnny Ive's group is relatively small,

0:13:43and it's always going to be relatively small.

0:13:47and not having to worry about spending specific,

0:13:51a lot of time every year updating the look of iOS

0:13:55and Mac OS X and watchOS, just to keep 'em looking fresh,

0:14:00trying to stick to something

0:14:01that's a little bit more timeless,

0:14:03even if it decreases the sort of trendiness like,

0:14:09wow, that looks good again this year, this is new, you know?

0:14:11Like, you do lose something marketing-wise

0:14:14if there's not like, wow, that looks new every year.

0:14:17But it saves them the time of having to just keep reinventing

0:14:20the stuff they've already done

0:14:22and lets them spend times on expanding.

0:14:26Like last year they could expand

0:14:27and spend a lot of time on a watch.

0:14:29This year they could spend a lot of time on Apple TV.

0:14:32- Yeah, no, absolutely.

0:14:33And the interesting thing is that was a painful moment.

0:14:36That took a huge amount of willpower

0:14:38and a huge amount of effort,

0:14:39and they turned that around in less than even a year.

0:14:41And then they did another massive change with iOS 8

0:14:44and built out all the new frameworks.

0:14:47But now that's done and they can do things

0:14:50that are super interesting.

0:14:52And I think you need those moments.

0:14:53You need those moments of this is what we thought

0:14:55the platform was gonna be.

0:14:56And six years, seven years later,

0:14:58this is what we understand it is now.

0:14:59And if we wanna go 10 years forward,

0:15:01we need to build that out now

0:15:03'cause it's only gonna get harder as we move on.

0:15:05And they can do a gold phone or a rose gold phone

0:15:07and that will appeal to people who just want a new color.

0:15:09But the software inside it,

0:15:11You know, yes, maybe the wallpaper will match

0:15:14the rose gold or the gold or the new sport bands, whatever,

0:15:17but the software itself will scale through all of that.

0:15:20- Yeah, I mean, I know that this is,

0:15:21in a lot of ways, a problematic analogy,

0:15:25but if you just compare it to a paint of coat on a building,

0:15:28I think for the first few years of iOS,

0:15:31Apple was sort of not necessarily picking,

0:15:33it wasn't like radically changing every year,

0:15:35but they were going back and having to repaint

0:15:37a lot of the building every year.

0:15:39And I think with the iOS 7 look is like a longer lasting

0:15:43coat of paint.

0:15:45And then they can just go back and update some of the trim.

0:15:48And so okay, now it's not Helvetica Neue,

0:15:51it's San Francisco as the system font.

0:15:53But the whole thing didn't have to get repainted.

0:15:56- It feels almost like they switched from doing iOS

0:15:59as a bitmap and made it a vector.

0:16:00- Yeah, yeah, sort of.

0:16:03I think that's a very good way of putting it.

0:16:05And I think that fitting it in with the size classes

0:16:08is part of that too.

0:16:09I think that that Pixel Perfect stuff,

0:16:11I was, you know, and I really do hope over the years,

0:16:15I'm a fan of this design, I think it was the right thing.

0:16:18I know there's still people who still complain about it.

0:16:21But it doesn't mean that I've suddenly dropped it

0:16:23and think that the old iOS look was bad.

0:16:27I mean, there's certain aspects of it that I miss,

0:16:29but it just, I don't think it gave them

0:16:34the flexibility that they need.

0:16:36- Yeah, and we can subjectively like or dislike

0:16:38individual elements of the latest iOS or iOS 6 or 5, but objectively there were huge gains

0:16:42that were made by going this direction.

0:16:44Yeah. Let's take a brief break and then when we come back, let's talk about the event last

0:16:50week. Maybe not spend too much time on it, but then we'll go on to iOS 9. But let me

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0:20:43All right, so last week's event, you were there.

0:20:51- Yes.

0:20:52We've sat near each other.

0:20:54I was wrong in advance.

0:20:57I thought, you know, I think they'll do the same thing

0:21:01they usually do, have the two events, one after another,

0:21:03because it would be busy and because, you know,

0:21:07otherwise they're not gonna be able

0:21:08to talk about the Mac at all.

0:21:10So I was wrong.

0:21:12They're only having one event this year.

0:21:14I'm almost certain.

0:21:16And talking to friends behind the scenes,

0:21:18that certainly is the plan.

0:21:20If there is another public event this year,

0:21:22it would be something that the,

0:21:24addressing some kind of surprise.

0:21:25But I was right, it made for a very busy event

0:21:30and it left no time at all for the Mac.

0:21:32- Yeah, no time for the Mac OS X was,

0:21:36it was a Easter egg in Craig's email box.

0:21:39- I caught that.

0:21:40It's funny because I take notes

0:21:42and it's funny when I rewatch the event,

0:21:44I never once catch everything.

0:21:46They're too dense, especially when they go fast like this.

0:21:49So I always, there's always some things I caught.

0:21:51I did happen to catch that.

0:21:52So what was it?

0:21:53Craig was up there.

0:21:54- Yeah, and he was just demoing

0:21:58the email preview abilities,

0:21:59the hint, peak, and pop for 3D Touch.

0:22:03And he did the preview on Phil Schiller's email,

0:22:05and it had secret release date

0:22:06for OS X El Capitan September 30th.

0:22:09Don't let anybody find out.

0:22:10- Yeah, and then I think it said the bottom note,

0:22:13Apple Confidential.

0:22:14- Yeah.

0:22:15- That was about it for the Mac, though.

0:22:20- In hindsight, I guess it makes sense,

0:22:21and especially if they don't have new Mac hardware

0:22:26ready to go later this year.

0:22:28Although I think if they do,

0:22:29and it's just Retina 21-GI Mac,

0:22:31and minor refreshes to MacBook Pros or something,

0:22:35they can just do those with a press release.

0:22:38- Yeah, the MacBook shipped in March,

0:22:39well, it was announced in March,

0:22:41and Intel took so long to get Broadwell out,

0:22:43and now they're just beginning to roll out Skylake

0:22:45that it's hard to see that they have the chips

0:22:48to make the sort of MacBooks

0:22:49that they would wanna show off on a stage.

0:22:51- Yeah, and otherwise there's not much left for an event.

0:22:55I forget what other, a few other readers have sent in

0:23:00as speculation, more or less--

0:23:02- New routers?

0:23:03- Yeah, who knows, I forget what somebody else,

0:23:06it's just not possible, there's no way

0:23:07that they can make an event that's worth it.

0:23:10Would it have been worth it to have a separate event?

0:23:14Now if they had held the iPads, including the iPad Pro,

0:23:18I think they could have done it.

0:23:19And then what they could have done, I guess,

0:23:21although, maybe not.

0:23:23See, I was thinking because there's a new iPad Mini 4,

0:23:27which is now technically equivalent to the iPad Air 2.

0:23:31- There's a slight processor difference,

0:23:33but that's about it.

0:23:35- That's interesting, and that's a new machine.

0:23:38Actually, it does kind of make for a hard demo, though,

0:23:41once you've shown off all the features

0:23:43in the new OS on the iPad Pro.

0:23:45So maybe it doesn't make for a good event.

0:23:47Maybe part of it, you know, part of it obviously,

0:23:51I think, talking to people behind the scenes

0:23:52was that Apple really wanted to only have one event

0:23:55because doing one event and putting all of the wood

0:23:58behind that arrow is easier than doing two events,

0:24:01even if one of them is sort of a smaller one

0:24:03right there on Apple's campus.

0:24:05But second, maybe that wouldn't have been enough to,

0:24:08you know, maybe that would have left people, you know,

0:24:10people who go and travel to get there

0:24:12thinking this wasn't worth it.

0:24:14- And the people who watch from home,

0:24:15They're watching and they see 4K iMacs,

0:24:18not as impressive as a 5K iMac.

0:24:19The iPad Mini 3, it's not as impressive as the iPad,

0:24:22sorry, iPad Mini 4, not as impressive as the iPad Air 2.

0:24:25And then you have the iPad Pro, which is great,

0:24:27but Apple is usually really good

0:24:28when they have a double barrel event.

0:24:30- Yeah, yeah, and I think it's just like last year's

0:24:34Retina iMac, except smaller.

0:24:36And it's just like last year's iPad Air 2, but smaller.

0:24:40It isn't really, that's great if what you want is smaller,

0:24:43but it doesn't really make for a demo.

0:24:46- I will miss Craig getting up on stage

0:24:48and saying OS X is available today.

0:24:51But other than that.

0:24:52- Yeah, yeah, the only thing really they would have left

0:24:54to demo is to rehash, and I think that would be good,

0:24:57but it just, I may not make for a great event,

0:24:59is to just go through, here's the top 10 best features,

0:25:03the 10 poll features in Yosemite.

0:25:05Or not Yosemite, okay. - They didn't even do that

0:25:06for iOS this year.

0:25:07I mean, iOS didn't get any time.

0:25:09- Yeah, they kinda, yeah, again,

0:25:11'cause they went long enough as is,

0:25:13they kind of skip that rehash of, you know,

0:25:16what they call the tentapoles,

0:25:17and usually it's 10 of them, you know,

0:25:19but here's the top 10 things that we want you to know about.

0:25:22And people forget, I know people sometimes complain about it

0:25:26because they're like, "They showed all this at WWDC."

0:25:29I think, you know, people who are really,

0:25:32really cued into this, I mean, sometimes I get that feeling

0:25:35too when I'm watching it,

0:25:36but I totally understand why Apple does it

0:25:38because that's how you teach people things.

0:25:40You have to repeat it.

0:25:41It's both a pedagogical axiom and a marketing axiom.

0:25:46You have to make your point multiple times

0:25:48to get it through to more people than you would.

0:25:53- Absolutely, and it's not like Apple talks to us

0:25:55very often, us being the greater community.

0:25:58They just don't have a lot of air time.

0:26:00So when they have that air time,

0:26:01they wanna do that exactly.

0:26:02Here's what we're gonna tell you.

0:26:03We're telling it to you.

0:26:04Did you see what we told you?

0:26:05- Yeah. (laughs)

0:26:08The event itself was, if I had known,

0:26:12if I had somehow gotten advanced access

0:26:15inside the facility and seen what they had built,

0:26:19I would have been a lot less likely to guess

0:26:22that they were gonna do two events this year.

0:26:24- Yeah. - Like, it's hard for me

0:26:25to, you know, in my write-up afterwards,

0:26:27I don't think I'd, I had so much to cover,

0:26:30but it's really hard for me to express

0:26:32just how impressive the build-out inside

0:26:35that the Bill Graham Civic Center was.

0:26:39- Yeah, if you'd never seen the Civic Center without it,

0:26:42I had never seen it before, I didn't know what it looked

0:26:44like, so I went and looked at some other pictures

0:26:45afterwards, and if you'd only ever seen it

0:26:47without what Apple did to it, you may not appreciate it,

0:26:49but they transformed that structure.

0:26:51It's almost like a movie set when you come

0:26:52into an empty warehouse and all of a sudden

0:26:54it's The Force Awakens inside it.

0:26:57- Yeah, that's a good way to put it,

0:26:58that it was like a movie set.

0:27:00They built a movie set for an Apple keynote room.

0:27:04I was saying that they build a building within the building

0:27:06and then maybe that's not right

0:27:07because it didn't have an outside structure for you to see.

0:27:11It was all inside.

0:27:13So a movie set is maybe a better way to put it

0:27:15because it was all meant to be seen from the inside,

0:27:19like a movie set.

0:27:20And the outside, who knows what it looked like?

0:27:22You know, it was impossible to sort of see that.

0:27:24- And from one direction, I mean,

0:27:26people kept saying 7,000 seats,

0:27:28but they had maybe 1,500, 1,700 available in there.

0:27:31- Yeah, yeah, I think that was it

0:27:33'cause it's, you know, they took up a bunch of that,

0:27:37what would be the floor space for like,

0:27:39if you wanted to hold a concert or something

0:27:41with max, you know, and sell the most tickets,

0:27:44you would just set it up an entirely different way.

0:27:46I mean, it really was more like a movie set.

0:27:48360 degrees all the way around.

0:27:51Even the flooring, you know, the stadium seating

0:27:55that we sat on was all built by Apple and temporary.

0:28:00- Yeah, it's not like they have a big warehouse

0:28:03Cupertino that they cart the stuff in and then put it away again for next year's event.

0:28:06They built this stuff, they build it like bespoke every time.

0:28:09Yeah, they even put in an air system so the building is not air conditioned.

0:28:15And I was talking to somebody at Apple and when they were talking, you know, in preliminary

0:28:19talks to maybe use this building, they were like, "Well, what's the air conditioning

0:28:22situation?"

0:28:24And the Bill Graham people were like, "Oh, it's easy.

0:28:27It's great.

0:28:28You just open the windows."

0:28:29Yeah.

0:28:30No, their events team is spectacular.

0:28:31They really could run production for any major studio.

0:28:34- I was thinking about this.

0:28:37What do you think that costs them?

0:28:38- Oh man, I mean just the air conditioning.

0:28:41And we were actually joking at the event

0:28:43that we'd rather the wifi went out

0:28:44than the air conditioning 'cause it was so hot.

0:28:47But it must have been in the millions.

0:28:49I can't believe how high.

0:28:51Tons of millions.

0:28:53- I'm not in that field so I could be way off.

0:28:55I'm guessing 10 to 15 million dollars.

0:28:58- Doesn't sound crazy to me.

0:29:00- Well and think about it.

0:29:00what's a Super Bowl ad cost?

0:29:02- Yeah.

0:29:03- Like five million dollars and plus the production cost

0:29:06to make the commercial.

0:29:07So, you know, it's not unheard of for a company

0:29:10to spend 10 to 20 million dollars on a TV campaign

0:29:13or a commercial.

0:29:15And Apple certainly gets super, you know,

0:29:18well they get more than Super Bowl commercial exposure

0:29:21out of these special events.

0:29:23- And unlike a commercial, it has to be done live.

0:29:25They have to get it right the first time.

0:29:27- Right, but they don't have to share the day

0:29:29with anybody else.

0:29:30So instead of racing to, being one of 40 different,

0:29:33all trying to be the commercial everybody's

0:29:36talking about tomorrow, Apple knows that everybody's

0:29:39gonna be talking about them tomorrow.

0:29:40But I think spending 10, 20 million dollars on it

0:29:43is not outlandish, and I think it looked like something

0:29:45they might have spent 10, 20 million dollars on.

0:29:48However long they'd rented the place out,

0:29:50however many people it took to build it,

0:29:53however much it cost to put all that stuff up.

0:29:57I mean, the seats, again, I wrote this,

0:29:59that I think that they just,

0:30:01I don't know if they threw them out,

0:30:02I don't know if there was someone they could donate them to,

0:30:04but the seating that we sat in was all brand new.

0:30:07I mean, and I don't know that there's a way to rent that.

0:30:10Like it wasn't, they weren't chairs

0:30:13that you can like pick up and move.

0:30:16They were like rows of seating

0:30:17that were connected to each other.

0:30:19You know, there's certain types of folding chairs

0:30:21that you can latch next to each other for ad hoc events

0:30:24that you can take them down and stuff like that.

0:30:25- Yeah, it didn't look like condo association seating

0:30:28had used that last week.

0:30:29- Right, and they all look, the ones I was in,

0:30:31look around our section, they all look brand new.

0:30:35But on the other hand, and some people,

0:30:37when I wrote that, they were like,

0:30:38well, maybe they're gonna use those on the campus

0:30:40in their theater, and that's a good idea,

0:30:43but they weren't that sturdy.

0:30:45There was a lot of rock to them.

0:30:48I mean, they were nice and they were cushioned,

0:30:50but I'd be shocked if those exact seats

0:30:54were the ones Apple has in their new theater on campus,

0:30:57'cause they weren't that nice.

0:30:59- They didn't look Johnny Ive team designed.

0:31:00- No, they definitely did not.

0:31:02And they also did not feel built to last.

0:31:05But they were, it just was just an unbelievable build up.

0:31:11- And the crazy thing is it wasn't just that.

0:31:12Like if you ever go to CES and talk to them

0:31:14about how much those booths cost,

0:31:15they built the equivalent.

0:31:17They had pods for the Apple TV demos,

0:31:19little living rooms, and I don't know how many.

0:31:21It looked like 10 or 20.

0:31:22And those are all, it's like that's a CES style pavilion

0:31:25as well as the event they're already running.

0:31:27- Yeah, absolutely.

0:31:28The screen was enormous, the stage and screen were enormous

0:31:33and that's the sort of thing that's really,

0:31:35I think it's impossible to gauge if you're not there.

0:31:38And again, does it really matter that we were there?

0:31:40Message-wise, no, but in terms of understanding

0:31:42the scale of the show, it does,

0:31:45because when you're on TV, watching the video,

0:31:48it reduces that scale.

0:31:50You're really just watching the slides go by

0:31:52and you don't really see the size of it.

0:31:54It was enormous.

0:31:55It was so big that I noticed several times

0:31:58that when they were switching to videos,

0:32:01and they're like, you know,

0:32:02like when one of the Johnny Iimes narrated videos,

0:32:04that whoever was speaking, Phil or Tim or whoever,

0:32:09would say, you know, now we wanna tell you about it.

0:32:12They'd start playing it

0:32:13while they were still standing in front of it,

0:32:15because it was so big that it would create an awkward pause

0:32:19if they waited until they walked

0:32:20until they weren't in front of it anymore.

0:32:22- Yeah, it was almost like an IMAX version

0:32:25of a tech demo.

0:32:26- Yeah, like ordinarily you would never, never,

0:32:28and I think it had to come through rehearsals.

0:32:31I think even like your instincts,

0:32:32even as, you know, not that polished of a public speaker,

0:32:37you would, it would occur to you,

0:32:38I'm gonna hit the button to play this

0:32:40after I'm off to the side.

0:32:42But it was so big that they had to do it

0:32:44while they were sort of standing in front of it.

0:32:45- And because it was so big, they never,

0:32:47at least I didn't even notice anybody.

0:32:48Once the video played, they were so small in comparison.

0:32:53- Yeah, yeah, oh definitely, definitely.

0:32:56And I even thought that too while I was watching it

0:32:58that it didn't make that big a difference

0:32:59'cause you really just sort of saw it, you know,

0:33:01little tiny bit of their silhouette instead of the screen.

0:33:05It was a truly enormous screen.

0:33:06Good sound, really good sound.

0:33:10And again, that's a big build out

0:33:12because it wasn't like there was a sound system in there

0:33:14that they used, they put one in.

0:33:17- They put like a couple of those new iPad Pro speakers

0:33:20just in each corner.

0:33:21Turned them to Macs.

0:33:23And then the other thing, in addition to those cubicles they built, it was like off to stage

0:33:30left was where they had all of these little living rooms to test Apple TV and iPad Pro

0:33:38demos that were hosted by talented artists who already had exposure to the thing and

0:33:46could show you what somebody who knows what the hell they're doing when they're drawing

0:33:49can do.

0:33:52And they were really nice, but it was real dark over there.

0:33:54And then stage right, you went down a hallway,

0:33:56and it was like you were entering a temporary Apple store.

0:33:59And the most amazing thing is as you came down that hallway,

0:34:03it looked like it was flooded with sunlight.

0:34:05Did you notice that?

0:34:06- Yeah, actually I didn't pick up that it was sunlight,

0:34:09but there was almost like a golden glow coming in

0:34:10as you walked through the room.

0:34:12- I was waiting to get in, and I look,

0:34:14and it was flooded with sunlight,

0:34:16and I thought, remember that one time Apple

0:34:18cut a hole in the wall at the Urban Buena Sweater Center

0:34:21to get sunlight in there.

0:34:22And I thought, oh, they must have cut a hole in the roof.

0:34:24And then I thought, no, wait, that doesn't make any sense

0:34:26because the Bill Graham Center has like three floors

0:34:30above the floor they were on.

0:34:32And it just, they put in like some kind of fancy

0:34:36lighting system that gives off light

0:34:39in the color temperature of sunlight.

0:34:43- You gotta wonder if that was HomeKit.

0:34:44There's just some guy there with Siri controlling all of it.

0:34:47- I don't know, but again, I think it's sort of like

0:34:49a movie studio quality lighting.

0:34:52- Absolutely.

0:34:52- Like the sort of thing that a TV show or movie would use

0:34:56to simulate sunlight without having to actually

0:35:01have sunlight.

0:35:02- Again, that's all them.

0:35:03They don't have an external events team

0:35:05like some people do.

0:35:05They don't hire anyone to put this together for them.

0:35:07It's all internal.

0:35:08- Yeah, and it's incredibly impressive.

0:35:12I don't know, I thought so.

0:35:14- Well, I agree completely.

0:35:15- The other thing that was interesting,

0:35:17and you and I talked about this,

0:35:18is even with the seating for 1400,

0:35:20they did not greatly expand.

0:35:23In fact, I think they might have contracted

0:35:25the number of media and analysts who were invited.

0:35:29In other words, outsiders,

0:35:30non-Apple people who were invited to the event.

0:35:32- So I heard, and I didn't hear anything official,

0:35:34but I heard that the constraint wasn't the seating

0:35:36of the arena, but the capacity of the on-hands area,

0:35:39that you just couldn't have that many people

0:35:41in the Apple TV and the iPad testing areas at one time,

0:35:46and that limited how many,

0:35:47'cause you can't just have a bunch of media people there

0:35:49and just never let them in.

0:35:51So they had to figure out that number,

0:35:52then that's as many presses they could invite,

0:35:54and then the rest they used for engineers.

0:35:56- Yeah, that actually, I did not hear that,

0:35:59but that makes my experience, my firsthand experience,

0:36:02that makes total sense to me.

0:36:04'Cause I stayed until they so politely asked

0:36:08- You, likewise.

0:36:09- those of us remaining to leave.

0:36:12And in the old days, that trick used to get you

0:36:15some really good hands-on time with stuff.

0:36:17I remember very specifically, and it's just funny

0:36:21because Apple's back to having a keyboard

0:36:24you can latch onto an iPad.

0:36:26The first iPad, it was so hard to get time with them.

0:36:30And you really just felt like there's so many people waiting

0:36:33at every table that after you did get some time

0:36:35and got to play with some things that it would occur to you,

0:36:38it was so many people you just felt like a jerk

0:36:40if you didn't hand it back over to the Apple rep

0:36:42and get in line again somewhere else

0:36:45or think about new things to do.

0:36:46But by the end of that hands-on session,

0:36:48Dan Morin and I had an iPad with the hardware,

0:36:52the original hardware keyboard thing to ourselves

0:36:54for, oh, I don't know, like a good 15 uninterrupted minutes.

0:36:58And we got to play with as many things as we could,

0:37:01test out keyboard shortcuts, and it was fantastic.

0:37:05And there was nobody over our shoulder

0:37:06because most people left.

0:37:08That's not the case anymore.

0:37:09Like, it was crowded and hard to get time with stuff

0:37:14right up until they asked us to leave.

0:37:16- Yeah, no, absolutely.

0:37:18- And that's with just the people they didn't fight.

0:37:21- And I heard also that they tried to have

0:37:23much more international balance

0:37:24in the media presence this time as well.

0:37:27And when you look through the media,

0:37:28it was obvious that there were people from Europe,

0:37:31Asia, I mean, just everywhere.

0:37:33- Yeah, a lot of people from Europe, clearly,

0:37:35and a lot of people from Asia, clearly.

0:37:37Yeah, and the story I heard about that

0:37:42was that for years what they used to do

0:37:43run simulcasts around the world. I don't know how many, but let's say they'd have one in London,

0:37:48and they'd have one somewhere in Asia, maybe more than those two, maybe more, but at least

0:37:54one in Asia and one in London. And that way people wouldn't have to fly as far. Someone from Germany

0:38:03would only have to travel to London. And Apple has PR staff on those continents already, and that PR

0:38:10our staff could man those events.

0:38:12- But they were all here this year.

0:38:15- Yeah, well the gist of what I heard is that more and more

0:38:17the people from around the world,

0:38:19even with the expense and time of traveling,

0:38:22wanted to be at the real show.

0:38:24They didn't wanna watch on a screen at the same time,

0:38:26they wanted to be at the show.

0:38:28And as more and more people were,

0:38:31the media people were asking for that,

0:38:33it left less and less reason for them to simulcast it.

0:38:36And so they didn't.

0:38:37Anybody who wanted to be there was here,

0:38:39but that meant though that the 400 spots for outsiders

0:38:43had to be split from everybody around the world.

0:38:46- Yeah, and conversely, they had so many products.

0:38:48They had the all new Apple Watch stuff,

0:38:50they had the iPad, they had the Apple TV,

0:38:51they had the iPhones, and those teams aren't big,

0:38:54like the press teams, the marketing teams.

0:38:56As far as I could tell, they were being manned

0:38:59by people from all over the world.

0:39:00If you worked at Apple in those departments

0:39:02anywhere in the world, you were there helping out that day.

0:39:04- Yeah, definitely.

0:39:07It's just wild.

0:39:08It's just an incredible, incredible effort that goes into it.

0:39:12Whatever you think of the announcements.

0:39:14The meta commentary on the effort Apple puts into the show itself is truly extraordinary.

0:39:22They've taken it to a level with this show, I think, that they've never done before.

0:39:26It's almost like, I don't know, you mentioned before that the idea that Apple was a product,

0:39:29but it's almost like the events themselves have become products.

0:39:32I've gotten to go to shows by other companies, and when you see the difference in how they're

0:39:37Like I won't mention any names, but some of them don't even think about streaming it

0:39:40It just doesn't occur to them as they're setting it up

0:39:42And then there's massive problems at the last minute or they do

0:39:45Simulcasts and one starts before the other and then I remember one year I forget London New York started early

0:39:51So these they started handing out phones to keep reporters busy

0:39:53While they were trying to get the satellite back and those reporters sort of blocking the phones immediately

0:39:58Like there's just so many things that could go wrong and that and that these tend to go right as a testament to the effort

0:40:03put in.

0:40:04Yeah, and it seems like the streaming held up once again very well for everybody at home,

0:40:10everybody out there listening.

0:40:11I bet probably a majority of the people listening to this episode probably listen live.

0:40:15It seemed like there were very few, if any, complaints about the streaming.

0:40:20Yeah, accidents and bad things happen to everybody.

0:40:22I think it's a testament to a company that they often do not let the same bad thing or

0:40:25the same mistakes happen twice.

0:40:27Right.

0:40:28Nobody got switched to the Chinese audio track or something like that?

0:40:32No.

0:40:33Anything else you want to talk about from the event itself?

0:40:37It was interesting to me is when we talked to a bunch of our friends about it

0:40:41how split some of the opinions are. I know there was a little bit of that at WWDC

0:40:45because some people actually did like the music stuff. A lot of us didn't but some people did.

0:40:49And this year there was nothing as divisive as that but there were still some people

0:40:53like I know Jeff Williams owns Apple Watch at Apple, it's in his org, but he presented it and it wasn't

0:40:57Phil Schiller. And some people like the fresh new voice and some people would prefer to have Phil

0:41:01Phil do all those things, and some people don't find Phil

0:41:03excited enough, so they like Craig,

0:41:05but some people think Craig is just a bunch of dad jokes.

0:41:07And then, like, there's just so many opinions now

0:41:09about who should be doing what, and I think that almost

0:41:11shows that they're getting to a level where we're not

0:41:14worrying about their products as much anymore,

0:41:15and we're worrying about Apple as a show.

0:41:17- Yeah.

0:41:19It's, I, you know, I don't get the complaints about Schiller,

0:41:23and I know that there's some people who, you know,

0:41:25like Twitter and email are like,

0:41:26"What's wrong with Schiller, was he depressed?"

0:41:28know I like his demeanor on stage I think I think it's very carefully dialed

0:41:33in and it is it is very much it's I don't find it to be lacking in

0:41:40enthusiasm I find it to be completely without artificial enthusiasm absolutely

0:41:46and you know even Federighi who's who is more enthusiastic I don't find it to be

0:41:52phony though I really do think though that that's exactly what he thinks he's

0:41:56He's just more of a jovial guy than Schiller is.

0:42:00- They're all, as far as I can tell,

0:42:02and you spend a lot more time with them than I have,

0:42:04but they come off off stage

0:42:06the same way they come off on stage.

0:42:07- Yes, very much so in my experience, very much so.

0:42:10Even Eddie too.

0:42:13He is, you think, well, that guy might be a little goofy.

0:42:17He is a little goofy.

0:42:19It's funny.

0:42:20- He runs iTunes, he has to be.

0:42:21- You wouldn't, you know, and the idea,

0:42:25Like when you hear that Steve Jobs and Tim Cook are ferociously scary negotiators, it's

0:42:33believable.

0:42:34And when you hear about Eddie based on his on-stage demeanor, it does seem hard to imagine.

0:42:40I can't imagine it, but I think if there's ever any place where he's got a different

0:42:46demeanor it's when he's at the negotiating table.

0:42:49It is different, clearly different than his stage demeanor.

0:42:54if you say hi to them backstage or something like that.

0:42:57- And that must be so disarming

0:42:58because if someone comes in like they're Darth Vader,

0:43:00you're preparing yourself for Darth Vader,

0:43:01but if someone comes in as your best friend,

0:43:03then all of a sudden,

0:43:04all the oxygen gets sucked out of the room,

0:43:06you're just not ready for that.

0:43:07- Right, I saw one complaint.

0:43:09I saw an article that somebody wrote about,

0:43:11that I don't think I linked to it.

0:43:16I almost did, not because I agreed with it,

0:43:18but in the spirit of sometimes

0:43:20I like to link to things I disagree with,

0:43:22but that I find worth considering.

0:43:25It's like the rarest thing, it was an article about,

0:43:28that called Apple's event creepy as hell.

0:43:31And one of his complaints was that it was just

0:43:34one guy after another all dressed the same,

0:43:36with the exact same, almost the exact same shirt on.

0:43:40And I see what he means,

0:43:41we actually commented on it in the show.

0:43:43It almost seems like maybe Apple needs to coordinate that

0:43:45a little bit better, that it was, you know,

0:43:47it really was a series of very similar bluish,

0:43:51with muted dark blue button-down shirt.

0:43:55- Eddie had his Product Red shirt on.

0:43:56- Well, that's the thing.

0:43:58I don't see how you, I see how you can complain,

0:44:00and I see how Tim and Jeff Williams and Schiller

0:44:05and a few others had roughly similar shirts on.

0:44:10I don't see, though, how you write that sentence

0:44:13without at least putting in a parenthetical about Eddie.

0:44:17(both laughing)

0:44:20Like Eddie's shirt was so crazily Eddie

0:44:23that it demanded to be mentioned.

0:44:27If you're gonna talk about the shirts

0:44:28of the people on stage, you gotta,

0:44:30you really had to mention that.

0:44:32I almost think like Eddie is going in like,

0:44:35you remember Doc Severinsen, the guy who was the fan leader

0:44:41on the Johnny Carson show?

0:44:43- Absolutely.

0:44:44- He wore deliberately outlandish costumes

0:44:46and Carson could crack jokes about it.

0:44:48Like I feel like Eddie's going in that route

0:44:50He he he's just wears he wears goofy shirts on purpose. It's part of the negotiating

0:44:55He distracts you with the shirt and then goes in for the kill, right?

0:44:58Cuz he actually didn't have that shirt on before the event, you know, like pre event apples

0:45:02senior executives

0:45:05mingle down in front

0:45:07in front of the stage

0:45:09You know like in the you know half-hour 45 minutes leading up to the event and and I saw you know

0:45:15Eddie down there and he was wearing I don't know what it was

0:45:18I didn't really take notice but I certainly would have taken notice if he was wearing that shirt and he wasn't like so he actually

0:45:23Gets into costume backstage like to come out. I

0:45:26Joked about this, but I seriously want to just turn off the internet often after Apple events

0:45:30I saw a whole thing about how Johnny I've didn't appear physically in the video and there must be something wrong

0:45:35But we saw him all over the event. He was he was exactly like Johnny always was. Yes, exactly

0:45:39No, he was all over the place afterwards

0:45:42No, there's nothing right stupid. It's the fact that the fact is that they've upped

0:45:47they've well

0:45:49It's I guess it's a matter of taste whether they've upped the style of those narrated videos, but they have seemingly

0:45:57abandoned the previous

0:46:00I'm gonna call it a format, but you want to call it a style like template where it's the

0:46:06white background that that seemingly infinite white

0:46:11universe background and

0:46:14You'd see the people doing the talking, you know

0:46:18Oh, I think they were always on the right side looking to the left if you're looking at the screen

0:46:24And you know this like as though they were filmed doing a sit-down interview and instead now

0:46:29it's a black background and they're darker and

0:46:33it's entirely shots of the products and

0:46:37Pure voiceover from Johnny and just Johnny. There's I mean, they don't have Dan Ricci. Oh, they used to have

0:46:43They used to have a bunch of people in those ads.

0:46:45They don't have Johnny Srouji.

0:46:47It's entirely a Johnny Ive.

0:46:48But it was getting to the point

0:46:49where people were making fake versions of those.

0:46:51And I think once you have your Saturday Night Live moment,

0:46:53you've gotta move on.

0:46:54- Yeah, I think maybe that's part of it.

0:46:56And that, you know, they just got old.

0:46:57You know, what's his name?

0:46:59Big Bob Mansfield appeared in them as well.

0:47:03- Dan Riccio was in some of them.

0:47:04I mean, they've had several people.

0:47:05They've had Joss Wieck in some of them.

0:47:07- Yes, definitely.

0:47:08I always like to see him, Big Bob Mansfield.

0:47:12- He was great.

0:47:13It just seems so nice.

0:47:15- A lot of them, they really do come off

0:47:18the way they come off in those videos.

0:47:19I think they really do enjoy what they're doing.

0:47:21- Yes, well, absolutely.

0:47:23I don't see if there's any other reason

0:47:24that they would stick around.

0:47:25- No.

0:47:25- I'm trying to think, anything else with the event?

0:47:30- No, just that it was, I mean, we spoke about it briefly

0:47:33before the event and we said if they were gonna do

0:47:35all this stuff, they were gonna have to yada yada

0:47:36a lot of things and they did, they yada yada

0:47:38a lot of things.

0:47:39- Yeah, they definitely did.

0:47:40- And apparently they cut a lot of stuff,

0:47:40like there was apparently a lot more stuff

0:47:42that just couldn't fit in.

0:47:43- Yeah, I heard, yeah.

0:47:46I'm curious who does that?

0:47:47'Cause previously it was without question,

0:47:51it was Steve Jobs.

0:47:52He was the director of those shows

0:47:55and it was unquestioned and he had a gift

0:47:59and they were easier to put together when he was around

0:48:03because his gift was such that if you laid out

0:48:07the products that, here's the stuff we'd like to announce,

0:48:11here's all of it.

0:48:12Jobs can just look at that table of stuff,

0:48:15whether it's software, hardware, whatever the mix is.

0:48:18And the show just came to his head,

0:48:22like the basic structure.

0:48:24What do we do first?

0:48:26What do we do second?

0:48:27What do we do third?

0:48:28What gets cut?

0:48:30And it just came to him.

0:48:31And it's not that they came to him

0:48:32and then they didn't have to rehearse.

0:48:34And then they'd start rehearsing.

0:48:36And as they're rehearsing, the flaws in the flow,

0:48:39the lulls and everything just came to him.

0:48:41And he would just say, "That's too long.

0:48:44"That's gotta be 30 seconds."

0:48:46And that's it.

0:48:47And nobody, there weren't really arguments over it.

0:48:50And went, and somebody who's maybe stuck.

0:48:53See, and the thing that really sticks out to me

0:48:55when you watch other companies' events

0:48:57is that the inner company politics

0:49:00just comes spewing out the sides of the event

0:49:03in terms of you can just see

0:49:05that it's this division and that division

0:49:08and they both want time on the stage.

0:49:11and they want it for the sake of their own internal

0:49:14bureaucratic status.

0:49:21Not whether giving equal time or 10 minutes of time

0:49:25to this other thing is good for the flow of the show

0:49:28and therefore best for the interest of the company

0:49:31as a whole in terms of keeping people's interest

0:49:33and making sure that the limited time of this event

0:49:35is allocated properly.

0:49:37And I think Steve Jobs could single-handedly solve that

0:49:41because whatever internal quabbles there were

0:49:44in turf wars under him, the buck stopped with him

0:49:47and he could stop it.

0:49:48Tim Cook obviously has that authority

0:49:51and I think it would be unquestioned.

0:49:52But he doesn't have, I don't think he's the guy

0:49:55who has the sense of showmanship to know

0:49:57which stuff to put in which order and stuff like that.

0:50:01And I really do think that's what was wrong

0:50:03with the WWDC keynote is that it was just sort of a jumble

0:50:07and sort of randomly structured as opposed to ordered in a way that was harmonious.

0:50:12Yeah, to your point, I felt like Steve Jobs could look at one of those weird, you know,

0:50:15those weird paintings and just see the pattern that was hidden inside it.

0:50:18It would just pop out at him.

0:50:19He would wonder why no one else could see it.

0:50:21It's so obvious.

0:50:22And now Tim Cook seems to treat them where before it was Steve Jobs and Johnny Iovine,

0:50:26everything radiating out from there.

0:50:28Tim Cook seems to treat them as if they're running their own sub companies in a way.

0:50:31And it feels like, you know, just running watch.

0:50:33Who does Jeff want to present the watch?

0:50:35If he wants to, that's fine.

0:50:36if not, we'll find somebody.

0:50:37Eddie's gonna do the iTunes or segment

0:50:41if he doesn't wanna do parts of it, who's gonna do those.

0:50:43And they get to make those decisions.

0:50:44And maybe arguably you'd want Tim Cook

0:50:47or Johnny and I have to make some of those decisions,

0:50:49but he seems content to allow them to own those fields.

0:50:51- Yeah, but not if he doesn't, if he,

0:50:53I think one of the seemingly amazing things about Tim Cook

0:50:57is that he seems extraordinarily comfortable

0:51:00sticking to what he's good at

0:51:04and knowing what he's good at.

0:51:05and he's clearly very, very good at certain things,

0:51:09and then not feeling the least bit defensive or inadequate

0:51:13about the things that he's not good at,

0:51:17even though those are some amazing things

0:51:19that his immediate predecessor was amazingly good at.

0:51:23Like, I don't think it bothers Tim Cook in the least

0:51:25that he's not, he doesn't have that sense of showmanship

0:51:29that Steve Jobs had.

0:51:30- No, he's like a very different apple.

0:51:32- Yeah, and clearly it doesn't bother him in the least

0:51:34he doesn't have the sense of design that Steve Jobs had. I mean I'm sure Tim Cook offers

0:51:39feedback and he's very very tuned in to the development of these products. And I think

0:51:43if he does have an opinion or a question I'm sure he doesn't hesitate to ask. But he doesn't

0:51:48have any problem letting Johnny Ive take over as the buck stops here sense of design for

0:51:54the company.

0:51:55One of my favorite moments during the event was Tim Cook walked into the Apple TV area

0:51:59with OneRepublic and he wanted to show them an iPad or they were asking about the iPad

0:52:04and it wasn't in that area, but there were a group of people,

0:52:07some of the guides there had them,

0:52:08so one of the guides offered it to him

0:52:09and he just picked it up

0:52:10and started giving a complete hands-on demo

0:52:12to OneRepublic showing them the features,

0:52:14almost like he was working at an Apple store,

0:52:16it was remarkable.

0:52:17- Yeah, it was nearby, I actually saw that

0:52:20until they wandered off, but it's,

0:52:23his knowledge of what's being announced

0:52:27is as deep as it could be.

0:52:30Like, you know, if he needed to, he could do everything.

0:52:32I mean, it would take forever

0:52:33because he talks so slow, but.

0:52:35- Well it seems like he doesn't drive design

0:52:37the way Steve Jobs did, but he really does appreciate

0:52:39the details of what they do.

0:52:40- Yeah, or he pays attention to what they do.

0:52:43He is very much aware of it,

0:52:44like there's no glossing over on that stuff.

0:52:47Event-wise though, that probably wraps it up.

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0:56:26All right.

0:56:28So, I guess we can talk about

0:56:31what they announced at the show.

0:56:33- Yeah.

0:56:34- I'm curious what you think of the iPad Pro with the pen,

0:56:37because you are maybe not a serious illustrator,

0:56:40but you're certainly a hobbyist illustrator,

0:56:43or at least you're a Batman illustrator.

0:56:45- Well, so I do that to screw around,

0:56:46but I drew every day comic book-y stuff

0:56:51when I was growing up and I went to college for art,

0:56:53And then I worked as a designer for seven, eight years

0:56:56using Wacom tablets every day.

0:56:59And doing Photoshop and Illustrator and InDesign

0:57:02just constantly until I became muscle memory.

0:57:04And though I had a love-hate relationship with those

0:57:06because they were better than anything else,

0:57:08but they were never exactly a digital pen.

0:57:11And Apple's pencil, it's remarkable.

0:57:14I'm sure if you just used it, you'd find that too.

0:57:16But if you've been using Wacom for a while

0:57:19or you've used styluses on the iPad,

0:57:20it's hard to properly frame the difference,

0:57:23but it just never felt like a proper pen to me.

0:57:25It wasn't heavy enough, it was too slippery,

0:57:28and Apple's fixed all of that.

0:57:30There is no paper drag, but they've got a material

0:57:32on the tip of the pencil that has just enough drag

0:57:34on the screen that makes you feel like it's a real thing,

0:57:37that there's real contact there.

0:57:38And the weight is absolutely perfect.

0:57:40And the way that it, they do this really fancy

0:57:43sort of prediction algorithm for where you're gonna go,

0:57:46and once in a while you can fool it,

0:57:48but it catches up super quick, but it makes you feel

0:57:51like you're literally drawing right on the screen.

0:57:54And because there's no inter mediating layer

0:57:56the way there is with Wacom,

0:57:57they have a whole layer between the display

0:57:58and the sensors.

0:58:00It feels like you are drawing those pixels into the glass.

0:58:03And I used it for about,

0:58:05I did the same thing that you did.

0:58:06I went there at the end and I used it for about 20 minutes.

0:58:08And I put my hand down on it to test palm rejection.

0:58:11I did very quick cross hatching.

0:58:13And Shrenity gave me a whole long list of things to test too

0:58:15because she did all the stylus reviews.

0:58:17And I did everything I could to screw that thing over

0:58:20and it kept with me.

0:58:21And it was the first time I actually felt like

0:58:23I could sit there with a pad of paper and sketch

0:58:25on a digital device.

0:58:27- Yeah, that's something that didn't really occur to me

0:58:29during the event.

0:58:30I thought, I was thinking of it,

0:58:32I mean obviously it was rumored that it was a big iPad

0:58:35and there would be some kind of optional stylus type thing

0:58:39attached to it.

0:58:40So drawing was obviously part of it.

0:58:41It hadn't occurred to me though that they weren't

0:58:44just going for a better stylus on iPad experience.

0:58:49experience than what was possible with third-party styluses until now and that

0:58:54instead they were going to take like the Wacom stuff and make it look bad you

0:59:03know that this is the preeminent computerized drawing thing in the world

0:59:07period it just didn't occur to me until afterwards in the hands-on area when I

0:59:12I was walking around with Michael B. Johnson,

0:59:16AKA Dr. Wave on Twitter.

0:59:18Honestly, I've forewent firsthand experience

0:59:23with the iPad and pen, 'cause like we said,

0:59:27the hands-on area was crowded.

0:59:29I've forewent doing that myself,

0:59:32just to hang with Dr. Wave and listen to his questions.

0:59:35He was a guest, you know, but,

0:59:38you know, what he does at Pixar is build internal tools

0:59:42for Pixar artists and this device is of great interest to him and to listen to

0:59:49his questions about refresh rates and parallax and and and all of that stuff I

0:59:54felt like I learned more by letting you know just sort of being a you know just

0:59:59looking over his shoulder really really fascinating so and it became clear in

1:00:03that aftermath that that's really what Apple had done is that this is you know

1:00:08a dramatic step forward in terms of drawing, you know, for any kind of artist.

1:00:15It's one of those things where they see an area where something is just not as

1:00:19good as they want it to be and if they believe that they can make a difference

1:00:21they're gonna go all out and try and do it and they doubled the refresh the

1:00:25scanning rate inside the Mac, sorry, the iPad Pro so it technically doesn't work

1:00:29on older generation iPads so they could update the hardware eventually for that

1:00:33but they're combining that with technology like the the Force Touch or

1:00:363D touch inside the pencil and a lot of smarts

1:00:39for tilt direction positioning and they're measuring

1:00:42on a bunch of different axes and they've got all

1:00:44the software behind that too and it really,

1:00:46it feels like magic and that's a really dumb thing to say

1:00:49but they're doing so much computational work there

1:00:51that it ends up just feeling like a pencil.

1:00:54- There was a blog post I linked to yesterday

1:00:56written by Linda Dong who, now admittedly she's

1:01:00a former Apple designer so if you wanted to say

1:01:02she's biased, you can but she's former.

1:01:04Well, because if she was present,

1:01:06she wouldn't be blogging about it.

1:01:07But she's done interaction design and stuff for Apple,

1:01:11and does a lot of her work, has done a lot of her work

1:01:14on the Wacom Cintiqs.

1:01:16I thought her little just quick,

1:01:19you know, like here's all the ways that this is better.

1:01:21It was amazing.

1:01:22So the Cintiqs aren't retina,

1:01:24so they have pixels that an artist can see.

1:01:26The pen, she says, you know,

1:01:28the pen you use with them is janky,

1:01:30and it feels junky, and has a bunch of buttons

1:01:33you can actually hit.

1:01:34There's parallax between the surface of the thing and the actual display underneath,

1:01:40which for almost any angle that would be comfortable for an artist is going to be an issue.

1:01:45And there's latency. There's palpable latency.

1:01:49So combine those highlights of "here's how this thing is better," it's blow away good.

1:01:55And you can almost see them the way that they did with the smartphone.

1:01:58They looked at the existing market and said, "What are the problems? What are the pain points?

1:02:01we fix them?" and they made that list and they just knocked them down one after the other.

1:02:04Yeah, my question, here's my big question about all of this though, is, and obviously there's,

1:02:10you know, however many other uses for the iPad Pro, but how big is the market for making the

1:02:18pen work as well as this is? Like, I have no idea how big that market is.

1:02:23Yeah, I don't know either. I mean, there were a lot of people who went out and bought Microsoft

1:02:26services just because they wanted to do this kind of illustration work, and that's, you know,

1:02:30obviously it wasn't enough to make the surface successful product but it was

1:02:33interesting to me that there was that demand and I don't think I think

1:02:35sometimes Apple just wants to do what they think is better and they know that

1:02:38that technology will trickle down like maybe in the future an iPad Air and iPad

1:02:42Mini maybe even an iPhone will benefit from this technology but it takes their

1:02:46launching a big product to bring everything together to make it a reality

1:02:49right because there's a there's all the magic that's in the pen and in theory

1:02:53that that you know the pen could work you know with any other device but

1:02:59But there's also new technology in the iPad Pro itself

1:03:03that works with the pen for getting the, you know,

1:03:07the pressure sensitivity and stuff like that.

1:03:09Like however thin the layer now is

1:03:13in the modern Apple devices between the actual display

1:03:17and the surface of the glass above it,

1:03:21however thin that is,

1:03:22and I really do think they're not exaggerating

1:03:25to call that gap microscopic,

1:03:27They've got sensors in there to measure at microscopic levels the degree of pressure

1:03:32that's being applied.

1:03:33>> Twice the resolution of the ones in the iPad Air and the iPhone apparently.

1:03:37>> Yeah, yeah.

1:03:38And they do magical stuff now with the refresh rate where if they sense that you're not doing

1:03:43anything that's very dynamic, they can cycle that down to save power.

1:03:46There's a lot of technology in that display.

1:03:48>> Yeah.

1:03:49And I think that they've, again, I think they've improved refresh rates in two ways.

1:03:57There's the drawing refresh rate, where just what it's displaying, what the iPad Pro is

1:04:02displaying has this dynamic visual refresh rate.

1:04:07So if you're watching a video where everything is changing all the time, it's refreshing

1:04:10at whatever rate, but if this, you know, it stops, if you're drawing something and you

1:04:15and it detects that you've stopped and nothing is animated on screen it'll slow

1:04:19it down and that can you know definitely save on the energy but I also that

1:04:24believe if not know that they have doubled the refresh rate of reading the

1:04:30touch sensors yeah right and so as even if you're just drawing your with your

1:04:35finger even if you're just sliding your finger over it it's got double the

1:04:39refresh rate of checking just where your finger is yeah and it all comes together

1:04:42like to Linda's post that it just does so many things that no one else is doing

1:04:46right now because they're hard things to do that all those refresh rate things

1:04:51those seem like things that could couldn't will eventually trickle down

1:04:55to across the whole iOS lineup I mean why not I mean whether they'll work with

1:05:00the pen I don't know but at the very least you know you know increasing the

1:05:05touch refresh rate you know seems like it would be just you know useful and in

1:05:09in ways to any iPad and phone.

1:05:12- Yeah, there is so much, I mean,

1:05:13they've shown their own custom timing controllers

1:05:15for things like the 5K iMac and now for the iPad Pro.

1:05:18They've shown that new chip that lets them flash

1:05:20the iPhone screen three times as bright

1:05:22to make a selfie flash.

1:05:24They've shown they can do OLED with the Apple Watch

1:05:26and keep things to super low refresh rates,

1:05:28sorry, super low, super efficient energy rates.

1:05:32Where they're going with all this,

1:05:34the thing that's always so impressive to me

1:05:35is that Apple, they're not like Qualcomm

1:05:37and they're not even quite like Samsung,

1:05:39they get to make the parts exactly for what they wanna do.

1:05:41So you take a look at like the A9 processor.

1:05:44And to me, this is light years ahead

1:05:46of the rest of the industry now.

1:05:47And if you told me 10 years ago,

1:05:48Apple would be leading in any chipset business,

1:05:50I would have thought it was insane,

1:05:52but they're doing it and they don't have to care

1:05:54about profit or loss on a chipset like Qualcomm does,

1:05:56'cause they're not selling them.

1:05:57They don't have to worry about supporting Microsoft

1:05:59and Android and other architectures,

1:06:01'cause they're only supporting their own.

1:06:02If they wanna make a feature like this,

1:06:04they can just make the silicon that supports it.

1:06:06And I think that over time, that becomes a stronger

1:06:09and stronger advantage for them.

1:06:11- I really do wonder, and I know that something

1:06:14like Geekbench is not, it doesn't give you everything

1:06:19you need to know about how fast one machine is

1:06:22comparable to another, but it's not bad.

1:06:24It's not a bad starting point if you just want

1:06:27to put a number on it.

1:06:28And I think Geekbench in particular is designed in a way

1:06:32that to me seems like a good balance

1:06:35of the various factors.

1:06:37Really, really curious to see where the iPad Pro benchmarks

1:06:42because I said last week that I think it'll benchmark,

1:06:45like it might beat like a 2013 MacBook Air.

1:06:49I'm wondering if I sold it short.

1:06:53It might beat like the MacBook Air

1:06:55that you can go in and buy today.

1:06:57I'm not, maybe that's too much, I don't know,

1:06:59but I'm pretty sure that it's gonna be close.

1:07:02- It's almost like apples and oranges now

1:07:04because again, they are building the software

1:07:06and the hardware down to the chipset all to work together.

1:07:09And you don't see that.

1:07:10Like people will complain,

1:07:11oh, you know, an iPhone needs more RAM.

1:07:13Android's got four gigabytes of RAM,

1:07:15but that really is meaningless

1:07:16because they're running an interpretive language,

1:07:18they're doing garbage collection.

1:07:19They're not have, they don't have,

1:07:20they have software that's built

1:07:21for a wide set of devices, not specifically.

1:07:23If you're saying you need more RAM because,

1:07:25oh, Safari can't keep a tab loaded in memory,

1:07:27that's absolutely justified.

1:07:28But their ability to do this lets them pick

1:07:31and choose exactly the components that they need.

1:07:33And I think that's where you get that performance from.

1:07:35- Yeah.

1:07:36It's just sort of astounding though.

1:07:40I mean, it's, to go from where the iPad started

1:07:44in 2010 and 2011, and it was a compelling device,

1:07:48especially starting with the iPad 2 in 2011.

1:07:51But not for reasons of pure performance

1:07:57compared to a Mac, or even just like a MacBook Air,

1:08:01which has always been the slowest Mac in the lineup.

1:08:04It's for other reasons.

1:08:06It was, okay, so it's not as fast,

1:08:08but you can carry it around all day,

1:08:10but it'll last 10 hours.

1:08:12But touch is more intimate.

1:08:15It sounds touchy-feely, no pun intended,

1:08:20but it really does give you a more intimate experience.

1:08:23There were all these buts.

1:08:24It's kind of fascinating

1:08:26that performance is no longer a but.

1:08:29- Yeah, well if you look at the MacBook,

1:08:32the brand new MacBook, that's running Broadwell Y,

1:08:34and it's hard to look at the Apple A9 and not think,

1:08:37you know, Apple's just sound like

1:08:39kicking their ass in mobile too.

1:08:41- It really does.

1:08:42And again, I think, again, we'll see, maybe I'm wrong,

1:08:45but if not, if I'm wrong, it's not gonna be my much,

1:08:47that the iPad Air 2, or not iPad Air 2,

1:08:52iPad Pro is going to benchmark faster

1:08:54than the Surface Pro 3s that are running Intel chips.

1:08:58And that was like the whole thing with the Surface,

1:09:03is that they had, well we've got the regular Surface,

1:09:05which is ARM, and that's if you want something

1:09:08thinner and lighter, and then we've got the Surface Pro,

1:09:12which uses Intel's mobile chips,

1:09:14because that's what you need for the speed.

1:09:16And Apple has, in relatively short order,

1:09:19just like two years later, has said,

1:09:22you don't need to make that compromise.

1:09:24You can get all of the advantages of ARM,

1:09:27and beat Intel on performance.

1:09:31- I used to say this and people thought

1:09:32I was just being a dick, but I meant it,

1:09:33that when you look at the Surface,

1:09:36running Windows was not an advantage.

1:09:38It was a detriment in many cases,

1:09:39'cause Windows was just not designed to do that at all,

1:09:42and iOS was, and that's why I think Apple

1:09:44with their tablets and even with the iPad Pro

1:09:47gets that right.

1:09:48I always wanted them to put,

1:09:49before they started merging everything,

1:09:50I always wanted them to put Windows Phone on a Surface

1:09:52and see what it could really do.

1:09:53But just the idea that this is a touch first

1:09:55mobile operating system built on a device that is mobile.

1:09:58It gives them a tremendous advantage.

1:10:01- Yeah, I think so too.

1:10:02The next thing, in addition to the pencil for the iPad Pro,

1:10:06is the, and here, you know,

1:10:07you can't not talk about the Surface in this case,

1:10:10is the smart keyboard.

1:10:11Where you've got a magnetically attached keyboard

1:10:16or cover that when you unfold it

1:10:18has a physical keyboard inside.

1:10:21- So much better than the original iPad

1:10:23with that keyboard stand.

1:10:24- Oh, absolutely, but it's funny how you go around

1:10:28and in five years it just looks like,

1:10:30what the hell were they thinking?

1:10:31But at the time, they didn't know.

1:10:33- Yeah.

1:10:34- They just didn't know.

1:10:35But clearly this smart keyboard is,

1:10:38Microsoft did it first.

1:10:42I mean, so credit to them.

1:10:43I'm curious why it's,

1:10:52And maybe the answer is just wait a year.

1:10:55Or maybe wait half a year, who knows?

1:10:56Maybe there'll be an event,

1:10:57I don't think there's gonna be an event this year,

1:10:58but maybe there'll be like an early 2016 event.

1:11:01Why there's not one for the iPad Air 2.

1:11:04And I know that it's full size,

1:11:07you know, it's bigger and more comfortable,

1:11:09and I've tried the ones in the demo area last week.

1:11:12But it seems to me like an iPad Air 2

1:11:14is big enough for a keyboard.

1:11:17- My guess is they're waiting for the iPad Air 3,

1:11:19which will have those same three connectors

1:11:21that the iPad Pro has that makes the docking and undocking

1:11:24so easy for the new keyboard.

1:11:25- That's exactly what I was thinking too, exactly.

1:11:28I think it's gotta have those three,

1:11:30it's gotta have those three,

1:11:31whatever they're calling it, smart connector.

1:11:33- Yeah, smart connector.

1:11:35- Look at me remembering the name of something.

1:11:37I think it's gotta be that they're waiting

1:11:38for an iPad Air 3, it'll have the smart connector

1:11:41and it just wasn't ready yet.

1:11:44Or maybe they didn't want to,

1:11:46maybe they didn't want to release it yet.

1:11:50- Yeah, going back to your older point,

1:11:51And the thing with Steve Jobs that was so great on stage

1:11:53is he could not, it wasn't just that he saw the story

1:11:55and could arrange the products,

1:11:56but he could tell you the story.

1:11:57And maybe the original iPhone and the iPad 2 events

1:12:00were quintessential examples of that.

1:12:02And I think this Apple knows that they're not quite as good

1:12:04at telling stories yet.

1:12:06And, you know, absent that narrative,

1:12:08I think that they have to be more focused.

1:12:10And if they start talking about an iPad Air

1:12:12with the keyboard or with a pencil,

1:12:14it just takes away from the iPad Pro.

1:12:16And they need to be very careful about keeping the focus

1:12:18on that one product.

1:12:20- Yeah, I think you're right.

1:12:21I think it makes sense even if they could have done it now

1:12:24that it made sense to wait.

1:12:26And maybe it will be.

1:12:27Maybe they'll go off cycle with iPad Air 4,

1:12:30or I guess it would be iPad Air 3,

1:12:33and maybe do it in the spring

1:12:35if they have something else to announce with it.

1:12:37- Yeah, it's interesting 'cause the watch,

1:12:38the watch debuted with watchOS 1,

1:12:41but watchOS 2 is coming out with the same hardware.

1:12:43They're not linking those product cycles,

1:12:45so maybe they're willing to do that more often.

1:12:48- Yeah, and it's, you know,

1:12:50I don't think they're married to it.

1:12:51I think they kind of are with the iPhone.

1:12:54- It's convenient though.

1:12:55I mean, the best time to show it off is WWDC

1:12:57and the best time to ship iPhones is in September

1:12:59and those things just line up very nicely for them.

1:13:02- Yeah, I think with something new like the watch,

1:13:04it's so unpredictable, or not watch,

1:13:07yeah, well the watch is new.

1:13:09It's so unpredictable that it makes sense

1:13:11to just not worry about getting it on the exact quarter

1:13:15that you want it to come out on

1:13:17until they're more regularized production and everything.

1:13:21- Absolutely.

1:13:22- And know more about the, you know.

1:13:25- And also they need to stagger,

1:13:27I mean those, Apple, like you said,

1:13:29they have small teams and those teams

1:13:30are continuously running marathons of sprints

1:13:33and they have to, almost like when Guy talks

1:13:35about the video game industry,

1:13:36they have to be careful to balance those people out

1:13:39because they will burn them if they're not careful.

1:13:42- Yeah, I totally agree with that.

1:13:46So here's what's in our smart keyboard cover,

1:13:50is 169 bucks, which is a lot, really.

1:13:55I mean, especially since the starting price

1:13:57on the iPad lineup is now like $249.

1:14:01You can get an iPad, I mean, it's the old mini,

1:14:06but you can get a whole iPad for 249,

1:14:10but the keyboard for the iPad Pro is 169 bucks.

1:14:13I think it's the most expensive Apple keyboard

1:14:15since my beloved Apple extended keyboard 2.

1:14:18- The Microsoft Surface Pro Type Cover keyboard

1:14:20in Canadian dollars at least is 175.

1:14:23- Yeah, and it's, you know,

1:14:25I think it's a complicated bit of machinery.

1:14:29So I, and I think it feels like a valuable cover.

1:14:32And obviously since the whole machine is

1:14:36800 to $1100.

1:14:40And I think, I think most people who buy this

1:14:42are gonna get the $1100 one.

1:14:44are gonna get the one with 128 gigs in the cellular

1:14:47for consumers.

1:14:49- You go big or you go Kindle.

1:14:51I think that's what we've learned.

1:14:52- Yeah.

1:14:53Well, I think that the entry level one, oddly enough,

1:14:58is more for like a internal professional setting.

1:15:02Like--

1:15:03- Yeah, I think sometimes people aren't,

1:15:04like, and Apple could do more.

1:15:05They could absolutely, like they used to do with the eMac

1:15:07and identify those SKUs better,

1:15:09but like 16 gigabyte iPhones and iPad 2s

1:15:12and this entry level iPad Pro,

1:15:15there are people who are buying 2,000 of them for enterprise

1:15:17and all they want is business to business apps

1:15:19and web portals and they will take almost no storage.

1:15:23- Well I think even for like an artistic purpose

1:15:26where you're doing really high-end work

1:15:27but at a place like if you've got like a studio

1:15:31and you're doing work on special effects on a movie

1:15:34or something like that and you want all of your artists

1:15:36to have this, it makes sense to just buy the Wi-Fi

1:15:40low storage one because the storage isn't really

1:15:42going to be on the iPad anyway. It's going to be on the server within your outfit. It's

1:15:49not like the artists working on Star Wars are keeping all of the data on their local

1:15:54machine.

1:15:55Yeah, it's exactly the Scott McNeely or Larry Ellison thin client. That's where we've gotten

1:15:59to, finally.

1:16:00Yeah, it's exactly that. And so it makes sense to just get the one without the... And the

1:16:07studio, these artistic machines, they're not leaving, so they don't need cellular. That's

1:16:11just wasted money and wasted thickness if they're a little thicker like they were or

1:16:18just a wasted antenna.

1:16:20And they don't need the storage.

1:16:21If they're never going to use the storage, why in the world buy it?

1:16:24Why not just get the low end one?

1:16:26So I think that's…

1:16:27It is odd that there's no LTE SKU for that because Apple's always had the same Wi-Fi

1:16:30and LTE SKUs for all of their iPads.

1:16:31This is the first time where you have to get the more expensive one if you want LTE.

1:16:35Yeah, that is interesting.

1:16:36But I do think it's telling towards the intended use.

1:16:39I think that if you wanna use it as a laptop,

1:16:44this is my portable, no, I shouldn't even say laptop

1:16:47'cause laptop word is loaded in terms of how you use it,

1:16:50as your portable computer.

1:16:51You're gonna want the additional storage

1:16:58'cause 128 gigs of bytes of storage

1:17:00is not that much for a portable computer.

1:17:04- No, and it's four gigabytes of RAM too.

1:17:06So I mean, it does have the constraints

1:17:07of a mobile device still.

1:17:09- Right, but it's, you know, that's the one

1:17:11that's specked out like a, this is my portable computer.

1:17:15And the 32 gig one is specked out like,

1:17:19this is like an artist's--

1:17:20- This is my studio computer.

1:17:21- Right, this is my drawing tablet.

1:17:23- Did you get a chance to try the keyboard?

1:17:24I spent only a few minutes with it,

1:17:26but I like the Mac, like I like low keyboards.

1:17:29I like the MacBook keyboard a lot,

1:17:30and I know you have very different tastes than keyboards.

1:17:33- Yeah, I don't like any laptop keyboard though.

1:17:36Like, I don't even, you know, like,

1:17:37I think that the MacBook Pro keyboard I have right now

1:17:42is probably my favorite laptop keyboard I've ever used.

1:17:47And if not, it's close.

1:17:49And I still think it's kind of a crap keyboard

1:17:51compared to my big, clacky Apple-extended keyboard, too.

1:17:54I make do.

1:17:55I mean, I write thousands of words a year

1:17:57on that MacBook Pro.

1:17:59- And if you could connect an IBM Selectric, you would.

1:18:02- Well, probably not in any of the areas

1:18:04where I would use the MacBook Pro.

1:18:06I would only do that if I were using it

1:18:08as my only computer at my desk.

1:18:10But then when I'm away.

1:18:11So I mean, I make do.

1:18:12I mean, I am picky about keyboards, but I make do.

1:18:14I don't find the new MacBook One.

1:18:15Again, I haven't lived with that machine, so I don't know.

1:18:18But just playing around with it in the stores and stuff,

1:18:20I mean, I could definitely make do.

1:18:22It doesn't seem that much worse than the

1:18:2511-inch MacBook Air

1:18:31that I used as my portable for four years.

1:18:34- Yeah, I use it, it took me an hour to get used to it.

1:18:36The only problem I have now is that it's still,

1:18:38it goes right to the edge of the machines.

1:18:39Every time I pick it up, I accidentally hit escape

1:18:41or enter or something.

1:18:42I have to remember to pick it up from the bottom.

1:18:44- Yeah, and it does, having tried this thing

1:18:47at the event last week, the keyboard,

1:18:50the travel is obviously very low,

1:18:51but it travels enough that it's,

1:18:53there absolutely is a clickiness to it,

1:18:56which in and of itself is a huge win over

1:19:02and anything like that that I've tried before, you know.

1:19:05- And I like that Apple had,

1:19:06I mean Logitech announced the same day,

1:19:07so Apple's letting anyone connect,

1:19:09maybe not anyone, but they're letting partners connect

1:19:11to those smart connectors,

1:19:12and that means that there'll be a range

1:19:13of different keyboards available for it.

1:19:15- Yeah, I thought that that Logitech announcement

1:19:17was interesting and sort of another new Apple thing

1:19:19where they obviously, you know,

1:19:22looped them in in advance,

1:19:25and you know, they haven't unveiled the details,

1:19:27but they obviously looped them in,

1:19:30And I think the thinking is that Apple decided

1:19:33this is what we wanna build.

1:19:34We wanna build one keyboard.

1:19:35It's gonna be a fold-up cover.

1:19:37Obviously with this port, the potential is there

1:19:41for all sorts of other things,

1:19:42including something that's more of like a

1:19:44leave it at your desk base station, right?

1:19:47So if you're just gonna use this,

1:19:49and I think this is for a lot of people,

1:19:51I think it's a really interesting scenario

1:19:54where this is your main computer and you take it around.

1:19:58When you're at your desk, why don't you,

1:20:00wouldn't you want a keyboard that's even better

1:20:03as a keyboard than the Smart Cover?

1:20:07Well, that's exactly what this Logitech seems like.

1:20:10We don't know the details.

1:20:11They've only shown one little carefully cropped photo of it,

1:20:15but I mean, that's what it seems like to me.

1:20:17- Yeah, I still have a drafting table

1:20:19that I've used since I was in high school,

1:20:20and I was figuring, you know,

1:20:21could I put the iPad Pro on that,

1:20:23and then tilt it down when I wanna draw on it,

1:20:25then tilt it up and just stick it in the keyboard

1:20:27I'm trying to figure out all the possible use cases.

1:20:30It's almost like a lazy boy situation now

1:20:31where you can recline as much as you want.

1:20:33- Yeah.

1:20:34Yeah, exactly.

1:20:36I wonder how much you can adjust the Logitech keyboard.

1:20:39And obviously there's gonna be others.

1:20:41Everybody else who makes these sort of peripherals

1:20:43is going to make something for this.

1:20:45And it is going to be a MFI port.

1:20:51Is MFI still made for iPhone?

1:20:53- Or iPod originally, but yeah,

1:20:55like even the Apple Watch stuff,

1:20:56I think they're calling MFI songs at MFW.

1:20:58- Right, which is really weird there

1:21:00because there's no I involved.

1:21:03Yeah, it's gonna be MFI, it's exactly,

1:21:07licensed exactly along the same way

1:21:09that they license things like the Lightning adapter.

1:21:12So anybody who wants to is gonna be able to play along.

1:21:15But I think that's really interesting.

1:21:17And it really occurs to me,

1:21:18people have been chasing the dream of the docked computer.

1:21:22I mean, as long as there have been portables.

1:21:24I mean, and Apple's had, you know,

1:21:26what were they called, the duos?

1:21:27- Yeah, PowerBook duos. - The PowerBook duos

1:21:29with docs, and there's pros and cons with all of 'em,

1:21:32but the big thing whenever you try to do it is,

1:21:36and you know, even today, maybe not,

1:21:38there's no doc for a MacBook Pro,

1:21:41but certainly you can, and I know lots and lots of people

1:21:45who do live off one computer that's probably a MacBook Pro,

1:21:50but when they get to their desk,

1:21:53they have a nice big display to connect it to.

1:21:56The hassle of the docked lifestyle

1:22:02is in the tethering and untethering

1:22:04of all the various things you need to plug in,

1:22:06power and USB and,

1:22:09you know, especially on the Mac,

1:22:12the big annoying thing is if you have,

1:22:14if you need to connect external storage,

1:22:16well now you've got this thing that you can't just unplug,

1:22:18you actually have to go in software and unmount it

1:22:21and make sure that whatever software was using it

1:22:23is no longer using those open files.

1:22:25And if you just wanna get up and go,

1:22:27it's a huge pain in the ass.

1:22:29With the iPad Pro, you're never gonna have to do

1:22:31anything but get up and go.

1:22:33And you probably won't even need, in most cases,

1:22:37because of the battery life that things get,

1:22:38you won't even need to plug in lightning

1:22:40to charge the iPad while you're using it.

1:22:43You'll just charge the iPad overnight,

1:22:45come in to the office, and just kachunk,

1:22:48put it right on your keyboard,

1:22:49and then whenever you wanna get up and go,

1:22:51just pick it up.

1:22:53- And it's super fascinating to me too,

1:22:54because there are some companies

1:22:55who really think that they can,

1:22:56that was a famous Microsoft saying, right, no compromises.

1:23:00And it resulted in the biggest compromise ever.

1:23:02'Cause you literally cannot be all things to all people.

1:23:04You can't serve every market equally well.

1:23:06And Apple is being very,

1:23:08they're taking interesting choices here.

1:23:09Like the MacBook is as close as you can get

1:23:11to being an iPad while still being a Mac.

1:23:13And this is as close as you can get to being a MacBook almost

1:23:16while still being an iPad.

1:23:17And they're not trying to do it all in one device.

1:23:19They're giving you these devices

1:23:20that both have unique identities still,

1:23:22but are optimized along the same sort of line,

1:23:25and you just pick which side of it you wanna be on.

1:23:27- Yeah.

1:23:28That's a good way to put it.

1:23:33And there's obviously compromises with all of it.

1:23:36The compromises with the iPad Pro are obvious.

1:23:39There is no external storage,

1:23:40'cause there's no concept of it in iOS.

1:23:42There is no USB port or USB-C or anything

1:23:44that you can plug in an external drive.

1:23:46It doesn't have built-in SD card.

1:23:50You have to go with the lightning to SD card thing

1:23:53and it's not, it works, people use it,

1:23:56but it's not something you're gonna keep plugged in

1:23:58all the time.

1:23:58- You have to mostly want a tablet

1:24:00and then just occasionally wanna use a keyboard

1:24:02or just for a certain segment of things,

1:24:03use a keyboard for it.

1:24:05- So I'm interested, what do you think

1:24:08they're gonna sell more of?

1:24:09Off the top of your head,

1:24:10do you think they're gonna sell more smart keyboards

1:24:12or pencils?

1:24:13- I'm just assuming, and maybe I'm biased

1:24:16because that's my background,

1:24:17but I'm assuming the pencil because that really is

1:24:19a completely better take on that technology

1:24:22where we've had sort of keyboards on iPads before

1:24:25and maybe Logitech will sell more than Apple even,

1:24:27we don't know, there'll be fragmented

1:24:30across a variety of manufacturers.

1:24:32But I think the pencil's gonna be unique

1:24:33to this device for a while.

1:24:35- Yeah, and I think that there's, as kids grow older,

1:24:38I know the ATP guys mentioned it last week,

1:24:40but I've heard about it from Apple people for years,

1:24:43is that the younger you are, the less likely you are

1:24:46to really give a crap about on-screen keyboard

1:24:48versus physical keyboard of any kind,

1:24:50whether it's built into the cover or whatever,

1:24:52that kids who've grown up or are growing up

1:24:56in the iOS era see an on-screen touch keyboard

1:25:01as completely normal.

1:25:03- It's interesting because previously,

1:25:05like you and I went through the migration

1:25:07from digital to become digitally native.

1:25:10People weren't digitally native, they were analog native.

1:25:12They were reading newspapers

1:25:13and they became digitally native.

1:25:14And now you have people who are touch native

1:25:16and using external and intermediated input devices

1:25:20is just not the computing that they understand.

1:25:22Even when the MacBook launched

1:25:24and people were complaining they couldn't plug

1:25:25their external monitor into it,

1:25:26the amount of people who plugged an external monitor

1:25:28into a MacBook is tiny.

1:25:29It's all of our friends on Twitter,

1:25:31but it's single digit percentage points

1:25:33and it's just not normal behavior

1:25:35and that's I think increasingly driving Apple's products.

1:25:37- Yeah, I think so too.

1:25:38Anything else on iPad Pro you wanna talk about?

1:25:43- I mean, I don't have a chance to try them,

1:25:44but the speakers were just, they were marvelous.

1:25:46You could just turn these big echo chambers,

1:25:48four really loud speakers,

1:25:50and when you rotated from landscape to portrait

1:25:52or just 360 degrees, it kept up with you.

1:25:55- Yeah, it occurs to me that for all the bellyaching

1:25:59that's gone on about the mono output of iOS devices,

1:26:04that the way that they went stereo with this is like,

1:26:11oh, and going with four speakers,

1:26:14That had never occurred to me before.

1:26:16Maybe because I'm unimaginative.

1:26:19But, and that, you know, obviously,

1:26:22just like the screen rotates, the speakers rotate,

1:26:24or at least, you know, the speakers don't physically rotate,

1:26:27but the concept of which sound is coming from whichever.

1:26:29- They crossfade, yeah.

1:26:31- Right, it knows what's up, what's down,

1:26:32what's left, what's right,

1:26:33no matter which way you're holding the device.

1:26:36And boy, in the demo area, as noisy and crowded as it was,

1:26:41boy, it certainly seemed like something.

1:26:43like hey that's something.

1:26:45- Yeah, it was really impressive.

1:26:47I just can't wait to actually get the device

1:26:48and put on like Avengers Age of Ultron or something,

1:26:50full blast, and start rotating it and see how well it does.

1:26:54- Yeah, it's kind of interesting and I wonder, you know,

1:26:56I don't know, a lot of people watch a lot of video on iPads.

1:27:01It's, sizes obviously makes it better

1:27:06if you're willing to carry it around,

1:27:07but boy the difference in sound output

1:27:08if you're not using headphones is dramatic now.

1:27:10- And this, I mean before people used to joke

1:27:12that the iPad was a big iPhone.

1:27:14I always thought it was more like an iPhone gone IMAX.

1:27:17And this really is an iPad gone IMAX

1:27:19because when you're holding it close,

1:27:20it fills your field of view.

1:27:21And whether it's a game or a movie or something,

1:27:22it really is immersive.

1:27:23- Yeah, totally agree.

1:27:25The weight, I guess the last thing I'll just mention is,

1:27:30I know that it sounds bad that it's a little,

1:27:34like a three hundredths of a pound heavier

1:27:37than the original iPad,

1:27:39'cause the original iPad sure feels heavy

1:27:40compared to modern iPads.

1:27:42And there's certain scenarios where I guess

1:27:45if you're walking around with it

1:27:47and holding it in certain ways,

1:27:48you're definitely gonna feel that.

1:27:49But it's so much more balanced

1:27:52and it sure is hard to believe

1:27:56that it's as heavy as an original iPad

1:27:57when you pick it up and hold it

1:27:58because it's so much more distributed

1:28:01throughout the whole device.

1:28:02- Yeah, it's like the iPhone 6 Plus

1:28:04is equivalent to a smaller, heavier iPhone

1:28:06but because it's so spread out,

1:28:07you really don't feel that in normal use,

1:28:08especially when you hold it near the middle.

1:28:10- Yeah, it definitely feels lightweight,

1:28:12even though it's, by iPad standards, humongous.

1:28:16All right, let's move on.

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1:32:08igloo software comm slash the talk show what was the next thing they announced

1:32:14Apple TV yeah I don't want to spend too much time on it yet because we just

1:32:18don't know that much but my first impressions are that it's exactly what I

1:32:23I wanted and I even bitched last week on the show

1:32:26that the main thing I really wanted

1:32:28is something Syracuse has been talking about for years too

1:32:32is to get fast forward and reverse scrubbing,

1:32:36get the latency on that and the user experience of that,

1:32:39modernize that, do what you know that a computer can do

1:32:42which is give it a good feel and give it a sense

1:32:45that you know where the hell you're going

1:32:46and where you're gonna stop.

1:32:48And at least on the, I know in the on stage demonstrations

1:32:52that look great.

1:32:53In the hands-on area, it worked as advertised in my hands.

1:32:58It was really good.

1:33:00And that's a real pet peeve. - Especially if you've ever

1:33:01used the iPhone remote app, where you slide

1:33:04and it goes too far, it doesn't go far enough.

1:33:06- It doesn't solve, the iPhone remote app

1:33:08doesn't solve the problem at all for me.

1:33:10In fact, it never does.

1:33:11It never works the way I want it to.

1:33:13- And this was phenomenal,

1:33:15it was just exactly where I wanted it to be.

1:33:17- Now, whether it'll work like that for all content

1:33:20from all sources, I don't know,

1:33:22because I have found with the current Apple TV

1:33:25that some are worse than others.

1:33:27And iTunes movies, which you don't really stream,

1:33:32which is kind of download in a chunk work better.

1:33:34So who knows how the streaming will work.

1:33:38But I know that there were people from the,

1:33:42that streaming in particular was something

1:33:44that they wanted to get better too.

1:33:45So we'll see how it works in the real world,

1:33:47and we'll see what kind of partnership they get

1:33:48with the companies like Netflix and HBO.

1:33:51- And we're seeing more partnerships too.

1:33:52Like HBO famously switched to the MLB team

1:33:54streaming for their, and those companies

1:33:56are just gonna get better and better at it.

1:33:58- Well, and I think that they have every interest

1:34:01in working with Apple on getting their experience

1:34:04on this thing as good as possible.

1:34:06And talking to people from the Apple TV team last week,

1:34:09there's no doubt in my mind that they take that seriously.

1:34:11Like they're exactly like I was hoping that they were.

1:34:15They really, they were completely dissatisfied

1:34:18with the fast forward and reverse experience

1:34:22on the old Apple TV.

1:34:24And didn't wanna just make it a little better,

1:34:27wanted to really kinda bring it to the modern day.

1:34:31Really just take a great leap forward in that.

1:34:33And I couldn't be more excited about that.

1:34:36- And I know this is nerdy, but what I really like

1:34:38is that for a while now, at least on the Apple TV,

1:34:40iPhone, and iPad, we've been running iOS under the covers,

1:34:43so just across the platform.

1:34:44And now the watch is that too.

1:34:45They all run iOS and they all have, you know, backboard and frontboard as the platform for

1:34:51those technologies.

1:34:52And then the iPhone and iPad have springboard, the watch has carousel, and now Apple TV has,

1:34:55I forget, it was a pine board and headboard or something.

1:34:58But they're all the same thing.

1:35:00They're all running the same platform.

1:35:02As a user, I don't know the details of the watch compared to the TV, compared to the

1:35:06iPhone, but I can figure it out because they are very similar things.

1:35:09And for developers, yes, Apple's doing things like they're making WebKit and the web basically

1:35:15a private API for the watch and the Apple TV and that does have consequences but essentially

1:35:19if you know how to make apps for one of them you can make apps for all of them making a

1:35:22watch extension or making an Apple TV app is not something foreign to you it's not a

1:35:26whole new platform you have to learn and all the technologies that Apple has been doing

1:35:29like we talked about for iOS 7 and iOS 8 and now an iOS 9 those are leveraged across all

1:35:35of these devices and it's one of those things where everything Apple does for one of them

1:35:39ends up making all of them better again.

1:35:43- I totally agree, right.

1:35:44There's a lot of reuse.

1:35:47- Yeah.

1:35:51- And everything is not as siloed as it was in the old days.

1:35:56- No, they have teams working,

1:35:59like the messages team on the watch knows,

1:36:01like are part and parcel with the messages team.

1:36:03Maybe not the exact people,

1:36:04but they're not segregated anymore.

1:36:06And on demand resources, I mean, that's interesting at WWDC,

1:36:11when they talk about it as part of app thinning.

1:36:13But then you see an Apple TV and they don't want,

1:36:16and I know there was some concern about this,

1:36:17but they don't want you to have a 32 gigabyte Apple TV

1:36:20and you go to download an app

1:36:21and it says your Apple TV is full.

1:36:23You have to delete something

1:36:24and you gotta go and try and figure out.

1:36:25They don't want you to be anywhere near that experience.

1:36:27So there, if your Apple TV is empty,

1:36:29they'll download a 200 megabyte initial file

1:36:32and then immediately start downloading a two gigabyte tag

1:36:34and then immediately start downloading more

1:36:36and as much as they can.

1:36:38But if your Apple TV is almost full,

1:36:39they'll download that first really small file,

1:36:41which will almost assuredly fit,

1:36:43and then start removing the less frequently used

1:36:46and older data so they can make room

1:36:47for the new frequently used data.

1:36:49And they're doing this whole Nearline management system

1:36:51that makes these devices, hopefully,

1:36:54the goal is to make that all seamless for the end user.

1:36:57And yes, it's absolutely more work for developers

1:36:59to go through and make these resource slices

1:37:01and tag them and do everything.

1:37:03But the result is, you're sitting there

1:37:04and you wanna play Minecraft,

1:37:05you don't get that pop-up saying, "Sorry, can't install it."

1:37:08- Yeah, absolutely.

1:37:10Yeah, and I think, you know,

1:37:11and Serenity Caldwell tackled it very ably in a piece,

1:37:16I don't know if it came out yesterday,

1:37:17or at least yesterday was when I saw it,

1:37:18but you know, it quickly got misinterpreted

1:37:23as apps for Apple TV have a 200 megabyte limit,

1:37:30and knowing that there's an awful lot of games

1:37:35that that's not enough for, that's not the case.

1:37:38It's just a 200 megabyte initial download.

1:37:41Just to have an app that's on your Apple TV

1:37:44that you can launch, 200 megabyte limit.

1:37:46And then after that, whatever other resources you need,

1:37:48and let's face it, we're mostly talking about games,

1:37:50you can start downloading immediately.

1:37:52- And it can be anything.

1:37:55It can be levels, it could be texture maps,

1:37:57it could be, like you've seen the introductory tutorial

1:37:59video, you don't need that anymore, it throws it away.

1:38:02You don't need these cut scenes anymore.

1:38:03You don't need these costume packs,

1:38:05or you don't need this expansion pack.

1:38:07it just throws those away.

1:38:08I mean, Guy did a really good explanation of this too.

1:38:11And I understand that this is not,

1:38:12if you just use Unity or you just use Epic's engine,

1:38:16maybe this is, could even be impossible, I don't know,

1:38:18but it might be very difficult to slice your app this way.

1:38:21But they're solving for me sitting on my couch

1:38:24on a small capacity device.

1:38:26- Yeah.

1:38:27So I'm impressed by the video latency.

1:38:31I am delighted at this prospect of apps and games

1:38:36for the thing.

1:38:37I think I like the controller.

1:38:40I don't know that it's gonna be a great controller for games

1:38:43I think how much gaming actually takes place on this thing

1:38:47I really don't know about but I think in terms of using it

1:38:51to watch TV it has the potential to truly

1:38:56be what we've always hoped Apple TV would be.

1:38:58- I agree and you can only, right now you can only have

1:39:00one of them attached and unfortunately--

1:39:02- The remote you're talking about.

1:39:03- Yeah you can only have one of the Apple remotes attached

1:39:05If you want to have other things, you have to use iOS devices, probably running an updated

1:39:09version of the Apple remote app, or you have to use the made for iPhone, which is now in

1:39:13the misnomer, the made for iPhone game controllers.

1:39:16And recently it looks like there was a change in policy that says you have to at least include

1:39:19controls for the Apple remote.

1:39:21You can't make a game that's MFI controller only.

1:39:25And that's led to some consternation too, because the Apple remote doesn't have the

1:39:28physical capabilities of a full game pad.

1:39:30- Right, like there's no way to simulate a D-pad

1:39:35and an analog stick.

1:39:37- And a trigger button, yeah, and all those things.

1:39:39- And shoulder buttons and et cetera, et cetera.

1:39:42So yeah, that's obviously gonna limit,

1:39:44it's obviously gonna limit some of the games

1:39:50that can come out, but.

1:39:52- My hope is that, 'cause again,

1:39:54this causes a lot of angst on Twitter,

1:39:56but the best thing you can do is file a radar,

1:39:58write an article explaining,

1:39:59Like if you just write an article,

1:40:00"Apple hates gamers,"

1:40:01then that doesn't really get anyone's attention.

1:40:02It's easy to dismiss that.

1:40:04But write a really informed article

1:40:05about this is what the game you wanna make,

1:40:07why it's awesome, and how Apple is stopping you.

1:40:09And these debates go on inside, like we all hear them.

1:40:11They go on inside the company too.

1:40:12There are people fighting for both sides of this

1:40:14all the time.

1:40:15And if you have a stake in one side or another,

1:40:17just arm them as best you can.

1:40:19- Yeah, I have heard though,

1:40:20and I know we talked about it offline,

1:40:22but that the buttons on the remote are programmable

1:40:27by the app.

1:40:28So you can use the buttons for game buttons,

1:40:32but you're still, you know,

1:40:34you're obviously limited in some way

1:40:35by the fact that it's just a,

1:40:37you've got the accelerometer,

1:40:38so you can do like the paddle game type stuff

1:40:41that they showed on stage.

1:40:42And you know, whatever else you can do

1:40:46with that Wiimote style,

1:40:48waving the thing at the screen.

1:40:49And you have a touch pad,

1:40:52but clearly that's no substitute for a D-pad.

1:40:54- Yeah, I mean, it's just,

1:40:57these things are always attention,

1:40:58whether it's gonna, like what do you need to control

1:41:00a great entertainment center,

1:41:01and what do you need to control a great video game?

1:41:04And I remember using my Xbox media center

1:41:06with the Xbox controller, and that wasn't great,

1:41:08I had to go and buy the hardware controller.

1:41:10But that wasn't stupid for games,

1:41:11so you end up with these environments.

1:41:13- I also saw some confusion,

1:41:18a lot of people seem confused,

1:41:19that when you look at the user interface guidelines,

1:41:21that they have the difference,

1:41:22they have something, things that involve a click,

1:41:25and things that involve a tap.

1:41:27And I think, it's funny, I didn't see any confusion

1:41:31over this until after I'd had my hands on period with them.

1:41:34I think that,

1:41:37I think that what it is is that the touch pad

1:41:42clicks when you press it,

1:41:45but you can also just tap it without clicking.

1:41:48Sort of like a MacBook trackpad.

1:41:52- Yeah, I couldn't get a clear answer about that,

1:41:55and there was so much going on

1:41:56and I neglected to follow up properly,

1:41:58but I heard both that you couldn't, couldn't tap on it.

1:42:01- Yeah, well, I think you can tap and you can click,

1:42:05and the click is actually a physical click,

1:42:07and the tap is just like tapping.

1:42:08So it's effectively like the way that a MacBook

1:42:11can have taps that don't actually click it,

1:42:13and a click, which is a click.

1:42:14- Like the Magic Trackpad, if you have it set up that way.

1:42:17- Yeah, I think we're gonna need more than, you know,

1:42:20two minutes of hands-on area demo time with it

1:42:23to really figure it out.

1:42:24- And the Siri stuff, it was way better than I thought it.

1:42:27'Cause you know, Siri has often been a point of concern

1:42:30for some people, but I tried all that stuff

1:42:32and just the ability to say, what did he say?

1:42:33And it goes back 30 seconds or something

1:42:35and gives you the subtitles at the same time.

1:42:38- That is such a great feature, it really is.

1:42:40And part of it comes to the whole being better at scrubbing

1:42:44and keeping more of that stream to video

1:42:48alive in memory so that you can do that.

1:42:51But then turning on the captions for that,

1:42:54It's such a great accessibility feature.

1:42:56And it's one of those accessibility features that is like,

1:43:00it just shows that accessibility is for,

1:43:03can be for anybody.

1:43:05Like you can have, you know,

1:43:07absolutely nothing that you, you know, perfect vision,

1:43:09great hearing, you know, no motor skill problems at all.

1:43:14But a feature like that,

1:43:15like if you just can't make out what a character said,

1:43:18that's accessibility, right?

1:43:20That just shows how accessibility,

1:43:22don't think of accessibility as being for others,

1:43:24for people who have some sort of disabilities

1:43:26or something like that.

1:43:28It really, you know, it certainly is more important

1:43:31for people who have disabilities.

1:43:34But to me, that's a great example of how accessibility

1:43:38is a mindset and it really works for everybody.

1:43:41- And it is amazing, 'cause one of the first things

1:43:43that'll happen when I go to any event,

1:43:44I imagine it's similar for you,

1:43:45is I get a bunch of people saying,

1:43:46"Please ask them before it's over, it's still there."

1:43:48Because the accessibility community

1:43:50is incredibly passionate and incredibly engaged,

1:43:52So they always feel like they don't really make Apple

1:43:54any money or companies in general

1:43:56and they'll be the first thing that gets chopped

1:43:57if any deadlines get tight.

1:43:59So they're always really, really concerned

1:44:02that there's not gonna be there.

1:44:03- And they've seen it with other products.

1:44:05- Yeah, absolutely.

1:44:06But day one Apple had voiceover for the Apple TV.

1:44:09They had voiceover for 3D Touch on the iPhone

1:44:13and I asked them about that and they said,

1:44:15it's not even a point of pride for them.

1:44:17It's just they believe that is something

1:44:18that has to be done and they have teams of people

1:44:19making sure it gets done.

1:44:21Tell me, I don't know anything about voiceover for 3D Touch.

1:44:24- So right now if you press the 3D Touch on it

1:44:27and you have voiceover enabled,

1:44:29it'll tell you what it is and then when it pops up,

1:44:30you can flick through and it'll read out to you

1:44:32the different option choices,

1:44:33for example on a home screen icon,

1:44:35and then you can choose the one that you want

1:44:37and that makes it accessible to people

1:44:38who can't see the actual 3D Touch controls.

1:44:41- Gotcha, yeah that makes sense.

1:44:43Yeah, I'm not surprised, but that's really great.

1:44:47- And the Siri responsiveness in the hands-on demo area

1:44:51was as good as shown on stage.

1:44:56I mean, I was completely uncreative

1:44:58and just did the same thing they did.

1:45:00I mean, perhaps it wasn't a good test,

1:45:02but I did the, you know, show me some James Bond movies.

1:45:05- I did show me episodes of the talk show

1:45:08where Maltz is a guest and got like 300 results.

1:45:10(laughing)

1:45:12- That's a pretty good one.

1:45:15But I saw other people doing other ones,

1:45:18I forget what other ones, show me action movies,

1:45:20only the new ones, and stuff like that worked.

1:45:23And I, okay, it's not gonna make

1:45:28a truly magical upgrade year over year.

1:45:34Siri isn't gonna suddenly become HAL from 2001.

1:45:38But it does seem like it's getting better,

1:45:41and it does seem like the Apple TV team in particular

1:45:44has somehow figured out a way to get it even better

1:45:48than the other platforms where Siri is available.

1:45:52- Well, my understanding, I might be wrong,

1:45:53is that the Siri team was still doing a lot of this work

1:45:55and it was delivered to the Apple TV team.

1:45:57But just in general, that team,

1:46:00'cause Siri is one of those things

1:46:01where the first time you try it, it seems magical,

1:46:03but when you do have problems,

1:46:04you just off-forget it on not using it again.

1:46:06And they have to be really careful

1:46:07'cause they don't have that many shots

1:46:08to make it a permanent part of your workflow.

1:46:11But with this, Siri does this thing called,

1:46:13if people aren't familiar with it, sequential inference,

1:46:15where when you say something

1:46:16and then you say something else,

1:46:17it bases its answer not on the thing you most recently said,

1:46:21but on the context of the history,

1:46:22going back to when you first started talking to it.

1:46:24And they were doing that like,

1:46:25like show me James Bond movies,

1:46:27only show me the new ones,

1:46:28only show me the ones with Sean Connery,

1:46:29only show me the ones with this or that guest star.

1:46:33And it could keep up with the context

1:46:35and it could both reduce the amount of options

1:46:38and increase them in a way that really seemed

1:46:41like you were talking to somebody.

1:46:42And that to me was the most impressive thing,

1:46:44just the way it could do such fast set sorting

1:46:46and give you a result that was what you wanted.

1:46:48- Yeah.

1:46:49Another thing, again, something that's not, you know,

1:46:54go back seven seconds is a feature that never occurred to me

1:47:01because it just seemed too good to be true.

1:47:02Now that I've seen it, I can't wait to have it.

1:47:04Some of the features though that they have

1:47:05are things that we've all wanted since forever,

1:47:08like Universal Search, where if you know you wanna see

1:47:11Caddyshack you say show me Caddyshack and you have a Netflix subscription and you maybe have HBO

1:47:16Show me if that if Caddyshack is available for me

1:47:20So I don't even have to pay anything to get it because it's already on Netflix and show it in one place

1:47:24Don't make me go into Netflix and search there then go to HBO then go to iTunes

1:47:30There it is. Now. They've done it. This is one of those things where it really does suck to be Apple

1:47:35it's almost like

1:47:36because people have been asking for this for years and Apple wanted to do it for years and the

1:47:40media companies would not let them.

1:47:42They did not want to be reduced

1:47:43to one of many options on a TV set.

1:47:46And it's almost like when they gave Amazon

1:47:48DRM free music and wouldn't give it to Apple.

1:47:50Once in a while, Apple does,

1:47:52Apple not only does not get what they want,

1:47:53but gets the opposite of what they want.

1:47:55And I don't know how they ended up getting this deal,

1:47:57but when you see it and you start asking for those things

1:47:59and it just works and I,

1:48:01the media companies can't be completely happy about that

1:48:03'cause it does reduce them to a commodity

1:48:05and they can't be happy about skipping around

1:48:07and all these things, but Apple was able to do it.

1:48:09And to me that makes just for a much better experience.

1:48:12- Yeah, but I think that in some ways,

1:48:14maybe they sold it to them on the merits

1:48:17of the user experience, which is,

1:48:19and especially like if you're a Netflix subscriber,

1:48:24if you're not, you're not gonna get those results anyway,

1:48:26'cause you don't have Netflix.

1:48:27If you are a Netflix subscriber,

1:48:30and you wanna see a certain movie,

1:48:32why wouldn't you if the results from Siri say,

1:48:35okay, you can get it from iTunes,

1:48:37and it'll be a $1.99 rental or 99 cent rental

1:48:41or $3.99 rental, or you can just hit play on Netflix.

1:48:44Why wouldn't you just hit play on Netflix?

1:48:46- And I believe they're doing it with,

1:48:48not everyone has access to the search on Apple TV.

1:48:50I think that's still partner program based.

1:48:52- Right, and it's definitely partner based.

1:48:57And so, for example, if and when Amazon submits

1:49:02an Amazon Prime Video app to the App Store,

1:49:05just because they've submitted the app,

1:49:07the content of it won't just show up magically.

1:49:10Those universal results are limited to partners.

1:49:14But I really can't see in the modern world

1:49:17where they wouldn't want to partner with that.

1:49:20And how many other places are there where you could see it

1:49:23if it's the same movie or TV show?

1:49:25How likely is it gonna be?

1:49:28'Cause HBO usually has a rotation.

1:49:30Like this month, these are the movies HBO has.

1:49:34And so sure, maybe sometime there's gonna be a movie

1:49:38that's available on both Netflix and HBO.

1:49:41And so you, the person who just did the query,

1:49:44are gonna pick one and you wouldn't pick the other.

1:49:47But who's to say you wouldn't have searched

1:49:48in the one you picked first anyway, right?

1:49:51In which case you still wouldn't be giving them the play.

1:49:54And ultimately what Netflix really wants

1:49:56is you to just remain a subscriber.

1:49:57I mean, whether you watch, you know,

1:50:00Smokey and the Bandit on HBO

1:50:02instead of watching it on Netflix,

1:50:04doesn't cost them any money if you're still paying

1:50:06your monthly bill.

1:50:07And lastly, I think they all seem to know

1:50:10that the future for these services is their exclusive stuff.

1:50:15What's made HBO, HBO is HBO exclusive shows

1:50:19like Game of Thrones and True Detective.

1:50:21And what's keeping Netflix relevant?

1:50:23What's keeping, what's making Netflix more popular

1:50:26than ever?

1:50:27It's the Netflix original content.

1:50:29And when you search for that original content,

1:50:31wouldn't you, why wouldn't you want it to show up?

1:50:33if you just ask Siri, you know, show me,

1:50:37you know, what's the Kevin Spacey one?

1:50:39- House of Cards.

1:50:40- House of Cards.

1:50:41Show me House of Cards.

1:50:43Why wouldn't you want that to show up

1:50:44as just universal search wherever you are?

1:50:46I think the fact that they know that the stuff

1:50:48that's most important for you to find from them

1:50:49is their exclusive stuff, which you're not,

1:50:52you can't find anywhere else,

1:50:53it changes the dynamics of why they would want

1:50:56to be involved in that.

1:50:58- Yeah, the entire thing is changing.

1:51:00Sometimes it's frustratingly slow,

1:51:01but I think absolutely at a certain point,

1:51:03they're gonna be exclusive data

1:51:04and that's more important than being an exclusive interface.

1:51:07- Yeah, and I think if there's anybody

1:51:08who maybe wouldn't want to be involved in it

1:51:10for a nickel and diming,

1:51:12from a nickel and diming angle, it would be Apple,

1:51:14in terms of if your option would be to rent it from Apple,

1:51:19and this is right now speaking before

1:51:21any sort of hypothetical streaming package

1:51:23that they might offer in the future,

1:51:24but as of today, as of when we first get

1:51:26our first new Apple TVs later this year,

1:51:29If there's a movie that they have for rent,

1:51:33but Netflix has it or HBO has it,

1:51:35and you're a Netflix and HBO subscriber,

1:51:38it's gonna cost Apple money,

1:51:39'cause you're not gonna rent it,

1:51:40you're gonna go watch the copy of it you can see for free.

1:51:43- Well, to your point though,

1:51:44I mean, their biggest deal now is the early access things

1:51:46where you can get, for example,

1:51:48Age of Ultron or something else,

1:51:49weeks before any other service,

1:51:51and yes, it's full price,

1:51:52but if you want it badly enough, you can have it.

1:51:54- Well, and ultimately,

1:51:55I think it just gets to the usual Apple mantra of,

1:51:58that, you know, let's just make it awesome.

1:52:00Let's make an awesome experience

1:52:01and we'll worry about, you know,

1:52:02we'll get our money eventually.

1:52:04But we don't have to make every single $3

1:52:06that we have, you know, at a time

1:52:08that we theoretically could get.

1:52:10If people are gonna be happy using Netflix on Apple TV, good.

1:52:13- Yeah, they would absolutely rather you have an Apple TV

1:52:16than they worry about who you're gonna rent something from.

1:52:18- Yeah, so we still haven't even talked about the iPhones.

1:52:22- I know. (laughs)

1:52:24- This is such a long show.

1:52:26- With so much to cover.

1:52:28iPhone 6S.

1:52:31- Yes.

1:52:32- I heard there's anything, anything surprising?

1:52:38- No, I liked Apple's tagline because every year

1:52:42they get shit free.

1:52:42All it looks exactly the same as the last one,

1:52:44which is the same with the 911.

1:52:45Every Nokia phone has looked the same for years.

1:52:47Every HTC phone, every Samsung, I mean, they're phones.

1:52:51And this year they sort of turned that around

1:52:52where they said nothing has changed except for everything.

1:52:54And I thought that was a good wink and nod to that meme.

1:52:56- And I really like that commercial.

1:52:58The way that the commercial just takes that reaction

1:53:01square on and even starts with it.

1:53:04Even really starts, and with the narrator, Lake Bell,

1:53:08really isn't, she's not, she doesn't sound sarcastic.

1:53:11She really sounds like she's going with the idea

1:53:13that there's not much that's new

1:53:15and then starts telling you everything that's new.

1:53:18And ultimately, I don't know, my take is that if anything,

1:53:24If you're on a two year upgrade cycle,

1:53:26if you get a new iPhone every two years,

1:53:28which is totally sensible, it's a lot more sensible

1:53:30than the get one, buy everyone that comes out

1:53:33upgrade cycle that I'm on, I mean, you know, likewise.

1:53:36I think it's totally sensible.

1:53:38I think in general, you're better off on the S cycle.

1:53:42- Yes.

1:53:44- I think that the S upgrades are often the ones

1:53:46that have the more stuff.

1:53:48I think it was the 5S that invented touch,

1:53:50that not invented, but brought Touch ID to us.

1:53:53Yeah, 4S was Siri, 3S was the new chipset and video recording.

1:53:57Yeah, and some of the performance upgrades really seem most noticeable.

1:54:02And that goes back to the original S, the 3GS.

1:54:04The 3GS was a huge upgrade, maybe in hindsight.

1:54:09It's hard to rate these things because it's largely an iterative process and it's been

1:54:14so close to annual that you really, we've been hearing these complaints ever since the

1:54:213G.

1:54:22I mean, honestly, the second iPhone ever made,

1:54:26well, now it's plastic and all they did was add 3G.

1:54:30And every single year since then,

1:54:33some of the same people have been complaining

1:54:35that this is not a major upgrade.

1:54:37And yet here we are, you know, eight years later

1:54:41and we have this phone instead of the original iPhone

1:54:44and it's almost incomprehensible how much better it is.

1:54:48I mean, every year is like that,

1:54:49it's incremental in some ways.

1:54:52But I think in general, some of the more impressive

1:54:55engineering stuff comes on the S year cycles

1:54:59when they can work within the design constraints

1:55:02of the previous year.

1:55:04- Yeah, it seems oftentimes, and I guess it depends

1:55:06on what department you're in, that your chief challenge

1:55:08in the redesign years is to get all your stuff

1:55:10to fit in the new design, whether it's a camera

1:55:13or a processor, it's thinner, it's got more

1:55:15thermal constraint, and you've gotta figure all that out.

1:55:17And then you figured that out already, you've paid that tax,

1:55:19and the next year you can just start racing ahead again.

1:55:22- Right, I think like the six obviously was about

1:55:25making it bigger, and that certainly is

1:55:27some engineering involved.

1:55:29But all of the technologies were the same

1:55:31as the technologies that were there before.

1:55:33And it's the S-year model that comes with 3D Touch.

1:55:37- Yeah, and you always wonder what story,

1:55:41like to me, and I think we've talked about this before,

1:55:43to me what Apple is gonna do is never that interesting.

1:55:46It's the same reason, like I don't wanna know

1:55:47what's gonna happen in the new Star Wars movie.

1:55:49I wanna see how well they're gonna realize it.

1:55:51If you just look at Phantom Menace on paper,

1:55:54you know, there's this character, that character,

1:55:55that tells you what's gonna happen,

1:55:57but it doesn't tell you what the movie is gonna be.

1:55:59And I wanna see how Apple presents this stuff.

1:56:01Like you hear about, you know,

1:56:03they use Force Touch in the watch,

1:56:04they use it in the trackpad,

1:56:05they're gonna use it in the phone,

1:56:06but how are they gonna use it?

1:56:08And what difference is it gonna make in me using the phone?

1:56:10That's always a super interesting part.

1:56:12And they did way better with that

1:56:14than I thought they were gonna do.

1:56:15They just made a really well-crafted story

1:56:17around 3D Touch for me.

1:56:19- I think it's interesting that they've settled

1:56:24on this two year cycle of industrial design.

1:56:29And it's been, other than the original iPhone,

1:56:33it has been, I mean, there's been no exceptions whatsoever.

1:56:38So there's the original iPhone, which was like a one-off.

1:56:41Then there was the 3G.

1:56:42Then the 3GS, which was exactly from the outside,

1:56:47you know, like the 3G but with better internals.

1:56:50Then the 4, then the 4S, then the 5, then the 5S, 6S.

1:56:54I, you know, again, you know, like I proved last week,

1:57:00you can definitely go wrong by expecting

1:57:02that Apple will keep doing in the future

1:57:04what it's done in the past.

1:57:05But for some reason I feel like it really works

1:57:08for them here and that they've got this down

1:57:10and that it gives the industrial design team two years

1:57:14to come out with what's next.

1:57:16and they're not scrambling every year.

1:57:18And I think it gives the ecosystem

1:57:24an extra year of like case compatibility.

1:57:28I know that there was some talk or speculation,

1:57:31I haven't even looked at the specs.

1:57:32I honestly don't even know,

1:57:34but that the 6Xs are slightly,

1:57:37like in terms of tenths of a millimeter thicker or something.

1:57:42But I asked and they are case compatible.

1:57:45Like any case that was certified for your iPhone 6

1:57:48should fit on a 6S.

1:57:50- Well, that's like a super cheap case

1:57:51with no manufacturing tolerances at all.

1:57:54- But that, yeah, so there might be exceptions,

1:57:56but I think the ones, I think like, I don't know.

1:58:00To my knowledge, if there are exceptions,

1:58:02it would have to be something that is, you know,

1:58:04some kind of totally rigid thing, I don't know.

1:58:07I honestly-- - Yeah, no,

1:58:08they're compatible.

1:58:09Within tolerance levels, they're completely compatible.

1:58:11- And that's such a big deal for some of the things

1:58:13that ecosystem wise are such a big advantage

1:58:16of being an iPhone user, like when you go to Disney World

1:58:20and if you wanna buy a case from Disney for your iPhone.

1:58:24The fact that all the ones they already have

1:58:29are gonna fit the phone, like if you buy a new phone

1:58:31now in September, you can just go there

1:58:33and all those cases that are running in stores already work.

1:58:36It's a huge advantage.

1:58:38- Yeah, and the manufacturer will tell you

1:58:39exactly the same thing, that they don't have to

1:58:41cut new cases every year and also they don't have

1:58:43and try and cover nine or 10 different designs

1:58:45from the same company every year.

1:58:46- Right, yeah, I totally think so.

1:58:48And for example, so like for the engineering team

1:58:51working on 3D Touch, and who knows how many years

1:58:53they've been working on this.

1:58:55- A lot apparently.

1:58:56- Probably a lot.

1:58:57But they, as soon as the hardware design

1:59:00for the 6 and 6S was set,

1:59:03a whole bunch of the constraints

1:59:06that they would have to know to worry about were set.

1:59:09And yes, they made a change and they switched

1:59:11from whatever series of aluminum to 7,000 series of aluminum.

1:59:15And I'm sure there were all sorts of little things

1:59:17along the way where they got, you know,

1:59:19monkey wrenches thrown into works.

1:59:21But at a basic level, they knew the sizes of the devices

1:59:24that they would be working with.

1:59:25They knew the sizes of the displays.

1:59:27And I, you know, and that's not like they knew that

1:59:31last year, that's like they knew that two years ago

1:59:34because the design of the 6 and 6 Plus

1:59:36was set two years ago, a year in advance.

1:59:40You know, somewhere within Apple there's a team

1:59:42that knows exactly what the iPhone 7

1:59:43is gonna look like next year.

1:59:44- Yeah, if not further ahead.

1:59:46- Yeah, it might have been set months ago.

1:59:49'Cause that's how far in advance

1:59:50some of this stuff has to go.

1:59:52But I can only assume that that's the schedule

1:59:58that they're on.

1:59:58But I don't think there's any advance.

1:59:59I just think as the years go on,

2:00:02I've always thought this, but I think as the years go on,

2:00:04you look more and more superficial

2:00:06if you really are gonna judge whether the iPhone

2:00:09is an improvement year over year

2:00:10just by whether the exterior design looks new.

2:00:13- Yeah, I wanna tweet that every year

2:00:15and just make a general reminder to people

2:00:16that we know who are reviewing these things

2:00:18that human beings aren't buying them every year.

2:00:20For a lot of people, they're upgrading from a 4S, a 5,

2:00:22a 5C, a 5S, and it's a substantial upgrade.

2:00:26And the really funny thing is that Apple can do all this

2:00:29and people will say, "Oh, it's boring.

2:00:30"It's not a big upgrade."

2:00:32And then they'll make it like gold or rose gold

2:00:34and some of it flying off the shelves

2:00:35because it turns out you scratch our surface

2:00:37and what you find more surface.

2:00:39- Yeah, well speaking of that before we move on,

2:00:43what did you think of the new rose gold anodized aluminum?

2:00:47- That's what I ordered.

2:00:48- Did you really?

2:00:49- Yeah. - Wow.

2:00:50- I tried to get the new color

2:00:51because I photograph these things a lot

2:00:53and it's a very monotonous page

2:00:55when everything is the same color.

2:00:57So I always try to get whatever new is available

2:00:58'cause it livens things up.

2:01:00But I was interested, I wasn't sure if it was gonna be

2:01:01'cause usually rose gold is much more coppery than this

2:01:04and this is really much more rose than it is gold.

2:01:07and the watch matches and it's different,

2:01:11it's a very different direction for Apple.

2:01:13- That was one of the things I was interested in,

2:01:16is I know that the watch started them

2:01:18with the 7000 series aluminum,

2:01:20and now the phone is on it and talking to them,

2:01:24and it's one of those questions

2:01:25where they're not gonna quite give you a complete answer,

2:01:27but you know, like a wink-wink judge answer,

2:01:29is it the same aluminum?

2:01:30And it's like, yeah, it's the same aluminum.

2:01:33It's, you know, and it's the same metallurgy teams

2:01:36working hand in hand.

2:01:38So looking at it, I was looking at the watch,

2:01:40the rose gold watch at the event last week.

2:01:43And it's under the, like I said, this really nice lighting.

2:01:46Like really nice, I mean you just cannot believe

2:01:48it's not sunlight lighting.

2:01:49Like nice and diffuse and seemingly a very, very

2:01:53neutral color.

2:01:54And the guy from Apple at the desk, I was like,

2:01:59well, what do you have a question?

2:02:00I was like, I'm just curious how well it matches the phone.

2:02:03The rose gold phone, but the phones were at another table

2:02:05and you can't just walk around with these things.

2:02:08And he goes, oh, you wanna see it?

2:02:09And they were ready for that, and he had a little key,

2:02:12and he could unlock a drawer right there,

2:02:13and even at the watch table,

2:02:14he could take out a rose gold phone

2:02:16and put it side by side for me.

2:02:18And I got really close, I got as close as I could,

2:02:21and those things are identical.

2:02:24I mean, it's far beyond the capabilities of my vision

2:02:27to notice any difference in the color.

2:02:31- Yeah, I asked them if they could hold it up for me,

2:02:33and I got a photo of them together,

2:02:34and they were, it's hard to see from the picture,

2:02:36but they were so very similar.

2:02:38But there's almost a running joke,

2:02:40the space grays have not always matched.

2:02:43Like they've changed over the years

2:02:44because black is the hardest color to anodize

2:02:46and if you try to make it really black,

2:02:48it chips and it flakes, so you go down to gray

2:02:50and then maybe you get a little bit better at it

2:02:51and like with the watch they can make it darker again.

2:02:53Does that hold up on a phone?

2:02:54So that's always a moving target.

2:02:56But my understanding is gold is the easiest color

2:02:58and some of these variations are much easier

2:03:00to just nail time after time.

2:03:02- Yeah, and I, when I was in the,

2:03:07I mean this is the worst type of evidence,

2:03:10it's an anecdote of one, but what happened was,

2:03:13I think it was, was it yesterday or Monday?

2:03:14Well, one of the last two days,

2:03:16I was walking my son home from school,

2:03:19and I know he's really interested

2:03:21in the Product Red strap, the sports strap.

2:03:24And so I said, well let's swing by the Apple store

2:03:29on the way home, it's a beautiful day,

2:03:30let's walk by and go in and look,

2:03:32and we went and looked, and not for sale yet,

2:03:34but they were there on demonstration.

2:03:35And while we were there, a guy came in

2:03:36and he wanted to see the rose gold watch.

2:03:39So, anecdote of one, the new colors seemed popular.

2:03:45- Yeah, and that's just it, because we do respond.

2:03:48We respond to some form of individualization

2:03:51when everybody has the same color watch.

2:03:52You start to feel like if you get something different,

2:03:55it's just a little bit more of your own.

2:03:57- Yeah.

2:03:58And I, again, I don't, I think it's interesting

2:04:01It's I I think that the silver

2:04:05silver back and white face watch and I think you know is is

2:04:09Truly, I think all of them are but my point is I think they're all relatively gender neutral colors

2:04:15I think that the rose gold is gonna skew a little bit more towards women and I think space black probably

2:04:22Watch phone all devices probably skews a little bit more towards men. But even at those extremes, I don't think it's I

2:04:30Don't think it's that far from 50/50, you know

2:04:33and if you talk to any I've talked to all the manufacturers over the years and they will always tell you that black is by

2:04:38Far the biggest seller because it's cliched as it sounds it is a little black shirt a little black dress

2:04:43It's the one thing that you get that goes with everything and people just tend to go that way because you know

2:04:48You want to dress it up or you want to do something else?

2:04:49So you don't be able to notice it and the flashy colors they get a lot of attention, but they're never high sellers

2:04:54yeah, I think I

2:04:57Think that maybe if there's if there's a sport band that may be skewed specifically towards women

2:05:03It's the rose gold with the I think they're calling a lavender. Yeah, they have several is is

2:05:08Probably, you know pretty feminine, but I guess the way I would put it is even the ones that skew a little feminine don't skew

2:05:16Girly, none of them look and you know

2:05:19I mean like in terms of linguistics that there's a difference to me between what's feminine and what's girly and

2:05:23This stuff doesn't look girly. It looks feminine. No the entire park line like it's not childish in any way that

2:05:29Everything from the blue like nothing is boyish either. Everything is sort of it's not like it's not a gold gold phone

2:05:35it's not a hot pink phone everything has sort of this layer of

2:05:39Not conserved isn't our way but just a restraint on it

2:05:43I

2:05:46Think what else I guess the only other thing I can think of right off the top of my head to cover with the iPhone

2:05:50and success and success plus would be

2:05:53the live pictures feature?

2:05:54- That and I was really impressed with the camera.

2:05:56That was a big question to me.

2:05:58- Yeah, well and I guess they're semi-related.

2:06:01There were a lot of arguments last weekend at XOXO

2:06:05about whether live pictures are a new thing

2:06:09or whether they're just videos.

2:06:12They're just really short videos.

2:06:13- Phones have been doing,

2:06:14like I just had this ongoing joke

2:06:15that Nokia invented everything in 1812.

2:06:17'Cause there have been live pictures on Windows Phone

2:06:19and there have been live pictures on HTC phones before.

2:06:22But whoever, inventing it first is like who's being first

2:06:24in a comment section on the internet, first, first,

2:06:27is who makes it successful that really matters.

2:06:29- It reminds me of the photos in the Daily Prophet

2:06:34in the Harry Potter world.

2:06:36It's, you know, I don't know, there's still photos.

2:06:40- But those were visually impressive when you saw the movies.

2:06:42- Oh, definitely.

2:06:43They're also visually impressive at Universal Studios

2:06:46when you look at the, when you go through the rides

2:06:47down there.

2:06:48- And I don't know what you heard,

2:06:49When I was talking to Apple, they were very careful

2:06:51not to call them videos, but to say that these are

2:06:53still photos being taken in quick succession

2:06:55and then animated, like they didn't wanna make it sound

2:06:57like they were just doing a quick video.

2:06:58- Wasn't even so much that they wouldn't say

2:07:01that they're videos, is that if you called them videos,

2:07:03they would say, no, they're not videos.

2:07:06These are live photos, and videos are videos,

2:07:08and these are live photos.

2:07:10- These are 12 megapixels.

2:07:12- Yeah.

2:07:12But yeah, I think the camera is impressive too,

2:07:18But that's the sort of thing that's really hard to tell from their demos.

2:07:21And you certainly can't take any pictures in the hands-on area that prove anything.

2:07:25But the interesting thing to me was that when you generally, a lot of times when you take

2:07:29a camera and you add megapixels, a lazy company will just cut up the sensor into smaller and

2:07:33smaller bits.

2:07:34And then you get less and less light in those pixels.

2:07:37And you get shittier pictures.

2:07:38They are noisy and there's not a lot of fine-grained detail.

2:07:41And yes, you can still crop them and digitally zoom them, but you're dealing with bad data.

2:07:45And Apple went to a lot of, like they did not,

2:07:48the iPhone camera's always been about making

2:07:49really, really smart compromises on aperture

2:07:51and sensor size and all these things.

2:07:53And I was happy they kept doing it.

2:07:55They didn't just capitulate and say,

2:07:56we'll put an 18 megapixel or 30 megapixel lens on here.

2:08:00They went to 12, but they did, you know,

2:08:02and Phil Shiller kind of made fun of himself,

2:08:04but they did do the deep trench isolation,

2:08:07which if only the Death Star had,

2:08:08we, the Empire would still be in business.

2:08:11But--

2:08:11- That's a good joke.

2:08:13- But they did that so that you don't get the color bleeding,

2:08:15and you don't get the noise and it makes for really,

2:08:17like the sample pictures, and they said they were genuine

2:08:19and they're always very honest about that.

2:08:21Those sample pictures in not just low light,

2:08:24but when you had a light source in the middle

2:08:25or on the sides in an otherwise low light setting,

2:08:27they look spectacular.

2:08:28- Yeah, and it really does seem like the color balancing

2:08:31that they're doing is really,

2:08:32the tone that they're getting off the sensor

2:08:34is extraordinary.

2:08:36So I'm always super excited about it.

2:08:38And if there's any way that I can justify

2:08:41in a logical sense, buy a new iPhone every year.

2:08:45It's the ever increasing quality of the camera

2:08:49and the ever increasing proportion

2:08:52of the photos I take every year that I take with my iPhone.

2:08:56Like buying a new iPhone every year

2:08:58is going to make the pictures I take on my family

2:09:01in the year 2016 better than they would be if I didn't.

2:09:05- And that's what I like is that goal.

2:09:06I think their goal is not to do a bunch of crazy stuff.

2:09:08Their goal is that you take the phone from your pocket

2:09:10and you snap something that's important to you,

2:09:12and the better chance you have of getting a great shot

2:09:15is what they're gonna focus on.

2:09:17- Their ambitions in photography are boundless.

2:09:20There is no limit to it.

2:09:21There is no good for a phone sort of mindset.

2:09:26Their goal, and in their mind, I think internally,

2:09:32they still feel like the camera in the iPhone 6S

2:09:34and 6S Plus is shitty.

2:09:36Their goals are so far ahead

2:09:39for where they want to get to.

2:09:41And I feel like that sort of doggedness is what you need

2:09:44to get the sort of iterative improvements

2:09:46that we're getting every year.

2:09:47- They consider themselves a camera company.

2:09:49- Oh, absolutely.

2:09:50Schiller said it on stage with me at the show.

2:09:52I said, "Do you consider yourselves

2:09:56"one of the leading camera companies in the world?"

2:09:58And he said, "The leading camera company."

2:10:00I mean, I think it was the only time in the whole interview

2:10:03where he sort of bragged a little bit.

2:10:05- And they're like the chips.

2:10:07They will spend boundless amounts of money

2:10:08'cause they don't make money on the camera,

2:10:10they make it on the entire iPhone

2:10:11and that affords them the luxury

2:10:12of deeply investing in these technologies.

2:10:14- Yeah, it's really, really interesting.

2:10:16Anything else on the phone?

2:10:19I don't wanna, I wanna get to iOS 9,

2:10:21so I'd rather, we can talk about the phone.

2:10:22- Yeah, no, it's got like interesting wireless and stuff,

2:10:24but yeah.

2:10:25- Yeah, we can talk about that detail later.

2:10:28I wanna do one more sponsor

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2:14:20keep them in mind. Alright, iOS 9. Man, we really left a lot of time for this.

2:14:25Luckily, here's the thing. The reason I wanted you on this week. I've read your

2:14:30review. You were nice enough to give me advance access to it. Really, really

2:14:34comprehensive. Again, just like the phone itself, you can say, looking at iOS 9,

2:14:41"Wow, this doesn't look like that big a deal year over year." I read your

2:14:45review and really dig into everything that's new and it almost seems it it

2:14:51just seems like it's too much year-over-year like not too much like

2:14:54it's overwhelming the user but too much I can't believe Apple pulled off all of

2:14:57this yeah I mean I thought I was in for an easy year because like the rumor was

2:15:01they punted a lot of stuff till the future and even if that's the case there

2:15:05I just kept writing and it wasn't that I wanted to write this much about it I

2:15:08would have much preferred to you know go to Vegas or something but this it there

2:15:12was just so much in it and it was so much stuff that wasn't really apparent

2:15:15because when they gave the list that tentpole list,

2:15:18like new notes app, new news app, smarter Siri,

2:15:22but when you start digging into it,

2:15:23I mean they didn't even put content blockers up on stage,

2:15:26that was all in the sessions.

2:15:28There is so much just incredibly interesting technology

2:15:31and things that really make the experience,

2:15:33it seems like they're really focused on performance,

2:15:35but not just how fast the processor goes,

2:15:37but how fast you can move around the system

2:15:39and how enjoyable that experience is.

2:15:41- This is, that's the most common question

2:15:44I've been getting today from people is,

2:15:47and it makes sense, 'cause everybody out there

2:15:50who hasn't been running the beta over summer,

2:15:52which is smart, now has the option of upgrading.

2:15:55And they already have a phone,

2:15:56and their phone is working okay, pretty good.

2:15:59And their worry, I think, and it makes sense,

2:16:01the biggest worry people have is they're gonna upgrade

2:16:03to iOS 9 and it's gonna feel slow.

2:16:06- Yeah.

2:16:06- I ran it all summer long, and not since WWDC like you,

2:16:10but I upgraded to nine on my daily carry iPhone 6

2:16:15at some point in July, so it was about a month

2:16:18after it came out and never once regretted it.

2:16:21I found, so again, your mileage may vary out there,

2:16:26I found that it was as fast or faster.

2:16:29There was never a point where I thought

2:16:31I saw animation stuttering that didn't stutter before.

2:16:33It felt pretty good, and in fact,

2:16:37I would have to say that for betas,

2:16:38especially for ones that I was running since July,

2:16:40I found the whole OS to be remarkably stable.

2:16:43- The one thing that I always point out to people

2:16:45is that when you first download

2:16:46and you first install a new version of iOS,

2:16:48there's so much that's going on internally.

2:16:50It's updating libraries, it's migrating data,

2:16:52it's re-indexing all the spotlight stuff,

2:16:54especially this year with all the new spotlight things,

2:16:57that it is gonna be operating as fast as it can for a while

2:16:59and it's gonna be using,

2:17:00like the radios are gonna be on

2:17:01and the process is gonna be on

2:17:03and it may not be the best experience,

2:17:05but give it that day, give it that data update

2:17:07and then sort of make up your mind.

2:17:08- Yeah, like just because it's let you restart

2:17:11and log in and go through the little welcome thing

2:17:15that you go through when you do a major update

2:17:17doesn't mean that it's done with everything.

2:17:19- Yeah. - Yeah.

2:17:20Did you find that, do you find it to be as fast or faster?

2:17:23- I find it to be better and I did some tests

2:17:25with one of the betas on an iPhone 4S

2:17:27and it was very good.

2:17:28I don't, I wanna do it on the release version,

2:17:30I haven't had a chance yet

2:17:31because that to me is a really honest test

2:17:33and let you install it, let it wait a day

2:17:34and then try everything on it.

2:17:36But Apple seemed especially laser focused after last year

2:17:39to make the ability to install and run iOS even better.

2:17:43So they're shedding a lot of things

2:17:44that don't need to be on older devices.

2:17:46They're even shedding features when, you know,

2:17:48people would like every feature,

2:17:49but some of them don't make sense on lower powered,

2:17:51the lower processor powered devices.

2:17:53And they're doing all that.

2:17:54They thin down the OS to one gigabyte.

2:17:56They're doing all the app thinning stuff.

2:17:58They are, they really want, 'cause they have relatives.

2:18:01I think you've said this.

2:18:02They have relatives who are running these devices

2:18:03and they want that to be a great experience.

2:18:05and they want people to update to another iPhone.

2:18:07They don't have to get pissed off and go to another phone.

2:18:10So it really behooves them to get all this right.

2:18:12- Yeah, I think one of the things that I think

2:18:14most annoys people in Apple, from Tim Cook, I think, down,

2:18:18but especially to the people who work on this stuff,

2:18:20is that it really annoys them that there's this

2:18:23widespread belief that Apple purposefully

2:18:26makes a new version of iOS, make your old film slow,

2:18:30old phone feel slow so that you'll upgrade

2:18:32to a new phone right away.

2:18:33- People Google iPhone slow at peak velocity

2:18:36because every single iPhone in the world

2:18:37is updated on the same day,

2:18:39where every Android phone is updated on other days,

2:18:41so they Google that over an entire year and it doesn't peak.

2:18:45- And that's not to say that it hasn't happened.

2:18:47That's not to say that there haven't been iOS updates

2:18:49that have performed disappointingly on older hardware,

2:18:52and especially if you're maybe two years behind.

2:18:55And there's the, hey, isn't Apple,

2:18:58the one angle is, isn't it great that Apple supports

2:19:01so many years back of iPhone models,

2:19:04as opposed to Android,

2:19:06where this year's new version of Android,

2:19:09it often is available on phones going back one year.

2:19:14But the flip side of that is that there have been

2:19:16some releases where the lowest supported phone,

2:19:19especially, performs worse than that.

2:19:22And it is what it is,

2:19:27and whether that's a mistake or not,

2:19:28or strategically on Apple's part,

2:19:30but the people who hear it,

2:19:32they're nothing but disappointed in themselves for it.

2:19:35They really are.

2:19:35And they really do,

2:19:37their interest is not in selling,

2:19:40or their primary interest is not in selling

2:19:43this year's new phone right now

2:19:44to as many people as possible.

2:19:45Their interest is in making as many people as possible

2:19:49happy and satisfied iPhone customers

2:19:51so that their next phone,

2:19:53whenever they buy it, will be an iPhone.

2:19:54And that one way, the easiest way they could burn

2:19:57through that is by making people think things

2:20:00like hey Apple is just trying to screw you

2:20:03with the iOS updates and make your phone feel slow.

2:20:07- Yeah when I heard they were gonna support everything

2:20:08that iOS 8 supported I felt that they were probably

2:20:10pretty confident that they've got this under control.

2:20:12- Yeah I think so.

2:20:13I have heard, and maybe they even announced this,

2:20:16I don't even know if that, I don't know why they would,

2:20:18but going back to WWDC I had heard that they were doing

2:20:22a lot more, have engineers actually carry older phones

2:20:28for some period of time during development

2:20:30or for whatever they're working on.

2:20:31And so that it's not just like, oh, go install it

2:20:34on an iPhone 5 and run a few tests and see if it's all right.

2:20:38But do some serious dogfooding on older iPhones themselves,

2:20:44just to sort of keep themselves honest.

2:20:46No better motivator in the world.

2:20:48I don't know if that's true, though.

2:20:49I mean, how do you find the volunteers to do that?

2:20:52[LAUGHTER]

2:20:54Oh.

2:20:55What is going on?

2:21:01This isn't something-- even having read your review,

2:21:03I'm not 100% sure on.

2:21:04So with the new Notes app-- the new Notes app

2:21:06is a major, major update.

2:21:09It really does-- like you say, you previously

2:21:11used Apple's built-in notes as sort of a--

2:21:14and it's exactly how I've used it for a long time,

2:21:16as a multi-device, multi-platform clipboard,

2:21:20where for a couple of pieces of text or URLs

2:21:23or something like that, something where even like Handoff

2:21:25isn't quite what you want,

2:21:26'cause you wanna do it later or something.

2:21:28- Yes.

2:21:29- Just put something here and then I know from there,

2:21:32you know, whether I'm on my phone or whether I'm on my Mac,

2:21:34I can put something there and then later,

2:21:36when I'm on something else,

2:21:38I can go and I know where it is and I can get it.

2:21:40And then I can, usually I just delete them, you know,

2:21:42it's little temporary things.

2:21:44And that Notes now, the built-in Notes app

2:21:46is now a serious Notes app and it's got, you know,

2:21:50a lot more pages-like features with titles and headings

2:21:55and stuff like that and styles and built-in checklists

2:21:59and a lot more features related to image attachments.

2:22:03And you can do doodles in them now too.

2:22:05- Yeah.

2:22:06- And they even--

2:22:07- And that's pressure sensitive on a 6S,

2:22:09which is really nice.

2:22:10- That's crazy.

2:22:11- Yeah.

2:22:12- But I don't see that yet,

2:22:16and I think it's because I haven't hit the upgrade button.

2:22:19Is that right?

2:22:20that's the thing you have to do to get those new features.

2:22:23And the hitch with the upgrade button,

2:22:26it's just sort of like you're going from the old notes

2:22:29to the new notes.

2:22:30And when you go to the new notes,

2:22:33the biggest thing is that syncing only takes place

2:22:36through iCloud Drive.

2:22:37And it's no longer doing that hack that

2:22:40used based on IMAP folders.

2:22:43Yes.

2:22:44But the hitch is, once you've done it,

2:22:47you've kinda gotta, you know, you gotta get everything

2:22:50on the latest and greatest.

2:22:51And the thing I've been putting off,

2:22:53and probably will put off for a while,

2:22:54is upgrading my Macs to El Capitan.

2:22:58- Yeah, it's because they still don't really,

2:22:59and I don't want them to release everything on the same day,

2:23:02but every year now we're having this thing

2:23:03where half of something is ready on iOS in September,

2:23:07and then you have to wait 'til October

2:23:08to have the other half of it.

2:23:09Like I think it was iCloud Drive last year,

2:23:11and it was something else the year before.

2:23:13- Yeah, so if anybody out there is confused,

2:23:16I thought I had the story, but I just wanted to make sure with you, but if anybody's out there is confused

2:23:19Why they can't put doodles in their notes even after they upgrade to iOS 9

2:23:23It's it's because you're like me and you didn't do this upgrade which they're very clear about they did once you upgrade this than the sinking

2:23:30You'll need your need your max on El Capitan to do the sinking and you know if you're not the old system

2:23:35It's just not capable of sinking all the data types that are in the new notes app. Yeah, I don't blame them

2:23:39I don't in fact that makes it makes more I'd be more worried if they let it if they tried to do it

2:23:44You know, I really would because the whole IMAP syncing thing that Notes did was a clever

2:23:49work around, but it's a terrible, terrible hack.

2:23:51Like using IMAP as the syncing back for Notes is just a terrible hack.

2:23:58Yeah.

2:23:59No, yeah.

2:24:00And this is a nice clean modern, not just a nice clean modern Notes app, but a nice

2:24:03clean modern architecture for it.

2:24:05Yeah.

2:24:06So I'm really looking forward to that, but I wanted to see it.

2:24:10What about Apple News?

2:24:12Do you use it?

2:24:13I have used it a little bit.

2:24:15Apple news is one of those things where it's not,

2:24:17it's only officially supported in the US right now.

2:24:19It's supposed to be in the UK and Australia,

2:24:21but there was an article saying it's being delayed

2:24:22in the UK and that, and so I had to flip my,

2:24:26my iPhone to the US in order to get it.

2:24:28Now I'm getting directions in miles,

2:24:29whatever the hell those are, but it's,

2:24:31it's, and as people weren't putting content in yet,

2:24:34'cause it wasn't really switched on, but it's a huge,

2:24:37it's a huge, interesting thing for me because,

2:24:39is it really worthwhile of Wired and Vanity Fair

2:24:42and all these articles to make content specific

2:24:44for Apple News and to sell ads.

2:24:46And yes, you can funnel in your old ads,

2:24:48but you can also sell iAds specifically for it.

2:24:50And this goes into the whole content blocker discussion,

2:24:53but a lot of companies just don't wanna have to deal

2:24:55with that complexity.

2:24:56They want one place to go to sell ads

2:24:58and one place to go to buy ads.

2:24:59And they want one type of content that they can,

2:25:01you know, spit out a PDF or a ping and put it everywhere.

2:25:04So I just wanna see what sort of reward Apple gives people,

2:25:08like whether it's gonna be huge volumes of eyeballs

2:25:10that makes them wanna put in the effort

2:25:11to support all of this.

2:25:12I find, I've tried to get into it and it just never sticks

2:25:15and there's nothing I can put my finger on

2:25:17that's wrong with it.

2:25:18And sometimes I've found plenty of articles

2:25:22that I've enjoyed.

2:25:23But I never find my, the only reason I ever go to it

2:25:26is 'cause I think I wanna get to know this.

2:25:29This is new, it seems important to me.

2:25:30I mean it seems important on a couple levels as a user,

2:25:33but it also seems important to me

2:25:34as the guy who runs during Fireball,

2:25:36I gotta understand this.

2:25:37But the only reason I ever launch it,

2:25:38and like I said, I've been running the iOS since,

2:25:42since July, I only go there when I force myself to go there.

2:25:45It just isn't for me.

2:25:48I don't find it compelling.

2:25:50But I don't know.

2:25:51See, it's one of those things that this is an app

2:25:53in particular where I really wanna get to know it,

2:25:55but it really, like what do I do?

2:25:57What does John Gruber do?

2:25:59In some sense, I'm like a professional news junkie.

2:26:01Like what I do is like my career is being

2:26:06an obsessive news junkie who reads and reads and reads.

2:26:09And so maybe it's no surprise that this isn't for me.

2:26:13This is meant for people who aren't news junkies

2:26:15so they don't have to be a news junkie to stay up to date.

2:26:18- Well, it's a weird experience too

2:26:19because it does run off of RSS,

2:26:21but a lot of people don't give full RSS feeds.

2:26:24So then you start reading a paragraph

2:26:26and you have to tap a button and you go into a web view.

2:26:28And I don't even think it's Safari View Controller.

2:26:30And then you can't, like you can go to,

2:26:33I can go to Daring Fireball,

2:26:34but if I've heard that Jon did a great article on something,

2:26:36I can't search to find it.

2:26:37I have to swipe to find it.

2:26:39then if I go to the topic that you wrote about,

2:26:40I can't find that publication.

2:26:42So it's not really suited to someone

2:26:45who's used to a net newswire or a reader

2:26:47or something like that.

2:26:48It really is, it is way better in many ways

2:26:51than the Newsstand app because not everything

2:26:54is a completely different user experience

2:26:56every time you launch it.

2:26:57But it feels like one of those things

2:26:59where it might take, in a year from now,

2:27:01we'll see if it's either really, really good

2:27:02or it's just not gonna go anywhere.

2:27:04- Yeah, it's nothing like Newsstand

2:27:05'cause Newsstand was at the root level,

2:27:07Nothing but literally, I mean, it was a great name for it.

2:27:11Newsstand was well named.

2:27:12I don't think it was a great idea,

2:27:13but it was well named because it's just like

2:27:15going to a newsstand.

2:27:17You just see a bunch of covers for publications.

2:27:19And if anything, you learned less from newsstand,

2:27:21'cause at least when you look at a real newsstand,

2:27:23you may be able to read the headlines on the covers.

2:27:26And you have to pick something and you go off

2:27:27and everything remains in its own silo.

2:27:29Like with Apple News, stuff is intermingled

2:27:31and you'll get like a thing from the New York Times

2:27:34and a thing from Sports Illustrated and whatever.

2:27:36but it just isn't for me.

2:27:40And I didn't really expect it to be,

2:27:42but I'm just curious to see once it rolls out

2:27:44how many people really take to it.

2:27:47- Yeah, and also it's like they've been doing things

2:27:49with the servers in the backend for a long time,

2:27:51and ideally it's gonna be like Apple Music

2:27:52where you go to 4U, it wants to learn about your preferences

2:27:55and present you with a bunch of interesting stuff

2:27:57you may not have found yet,

2:27:58but how well that hits and misses

2:28:00will determine a great deal of what the value is to you.

2:28:02- Yeah.

2:28:03I thought it was so interesting.

2:28:05I love the way that you include in your links,

2:28:08in your review, your links to all your previous reviews,

2:28:11and you have the icons, the icon logos

2:28:15that Apple has used for each OS release,

2:28:19and the ones for seven, eight, and nine

2:28:20are just sort of the same, except that it's just

2:28:23seven, eight, and nine, you know.

2:28:25I wonder, I actually didn't even think to notice,

2:28:29'cause the nines look similar,

2:28:30but I bet they switched the nine to San Francisco

2:28:32from Helvetica Noya, but they're all the same.

2:28:34Whereas the ones for two three four five six are all like all over the place

2:28:39Yeah, and I reflect whatever the skeuomorphic Tennessee was at the time. Yeah, I think it really

2:28:45Epitomizes what I mentioned to you

2:28:46You know a while back on this episode that it it just shows that the design of i07 is really started starting with i07

2:28:53really matured

2:28:55Anything else I guess anything I can think of that's really I really want to hit hit your thinking on because you know

2:29:03just item by item item by item I'm just gonna send people to your just go read Renee's review

2:29:07The show's gone on long enough. But what about the the deep linking?

2:29:12That to me so, you know mutual friend Marco Arman

2:29:16He has an app called overcast and I was just playing around with it and I had an episode

2:29:19Daring fireball or ATP or something and I said remind me of this and it said okay

2:29:24I'll remind you of this and put the little overcast icon in and then I went and listened to a bunch of other shows and

2:29:28and then I went back to reminders and tapped on it,

2:29:30and it took me back to the episode

2:29:32I wanted to be reminded of.

2:29:33So I pinged Marco and I said, "Did you set this up?"

2:29:35And he said, "No."

2:29:36And I started looking into it,

2:29:37and it turns out that because he'd enabled continuity,

2:29:40continuity does the activity indexing,

2:29:42that that's exactly what they were using,

2:29:43and they were using that for the back button,

2:29:45and they were using that, not in a creepy way,

2:29:46so basically anytime you leave an app,

2:29:48it just drops a bookmark,

2:29:49and then it'll take you right back to there.

2:29:51Anytime you leave a reminder,

2:29:53it just drops a bookmark to where you were

2:29:54and takes you right back to there.

2:29:55And this is a technology that they created

2:29:57for continuity.

2:29:59And there's another continuity technology

2:30:00that let you move from your website

2:30:02to an app back and forth.

2:30:03And they use that essentially for universal links.

2:30:06So if I get a Twitter article in messages,

2:30:08I can tap on it.

2:30:09And instead of going to mobile.twitter.com like an animal,

2:30:12I go to the Twitter app.

2:30:13And if that Twitter app's not installed, it doesn't care.

2:30:15It's a universal link.

2:30:16It goes back to the mobile Twitter site.

2:30:18And all of these things just work seamlessly.

2:30:20I think that's what they're calling it, seamless linking,

2:30:22based on existing technology.

2:30:24So, you know, really like if Marco had to do extra work

2:30:27to support it, it wouldn't bother me that much,

2:30:29but he's got enough to do already.

2:30:30And he got all of that for free, essentially.

2:30:32And to me, that's one of the really awesome aspects

2:30:34of iOS 9 is how it took all this stuff

2:30:36and gave us tremendous new features for almost no effort.

2:30:40- Yeah, and I also think it's at no additional

2:30:43cognitive load on the user.

2:30:46If you figure it out and you get the hang of it,

2:30:48you're moving around faster.

2:30:50But if you don't, if you just ignore it,

2:30:53you're not bothered by anything new.

2:30:56There's nothing new to do.

2:30:58I almost worry that some of the richness of this

2:31:01is just going to go unnoticed

2:31:05because it's so not in your face.

2:31:08But I would have never even thought that.

2:31:10That's something that's new to me

2:31:11that you can just go to Siri.

2:31:14So you're listening to a show and then you jump to Siri

2:31:17and say, "Remind me of this later?"

2:31:19- It's not just a show.

2:31:20If you send me a text message or I get an email on,

2:31:22you just say, "Remind me of this,"

2:31:24and it'll put the icon for that app into reminders

2:31:27and deep link to the spot in the app that you were in

2:31:30when you made that request.

2:31:32- Yeah, I can just imagine right now

2:31:33how many listeners of this podcast are right now

2:31:37in overcast listening to us say this,

2:31:40and they're trying it right now saying,

2:31:41remind me of this later,

2:31:42and they're making a reminder of this,

2:31:44of me and you talking about this right now.

2:31:47- Yeah, and it's great,

2:31:48and you can say things like remind me of this,

2:31:50like remind me to listen to this when I get in the car,

2:31:52and if you plug into a car kit,

2:31:53knows that you're plugged into a car. And it's just very clever.

2:31:56The thing that's really hit me is, because the back buttons that go in the top left,

2:32:02like when you jump to a web link from something and then Safari has a back to wherever you're

2:32:07from, like back to mail. It looked clever and I thought this was the, as soon as I saw

2:32:14it at WWDC I thought that what I'm about to say was the case. But in the summer of using

2:32:18it is the case where for years, one of my pet peeves

2:32:23have been the hardware or system level back buttons

2:32:29on Android and Windows Phone.

2:32:31And to me, it's the single biggest mistake

2:32:33that Windows Phone made because Android was already out

2:32:36and the designers of Windows Phone,

2:32:38which I think is a really well-designed system,

2:32:41overall really should have seen the inherent problems

2:32:44of that button.

2:32:48And again, like everything, it's trade-offs.

2:32:50There are times when you just want a go back

2:32:52to where I was right before this,

2:32:54even if it's a different app.

2:32:56You've opened a link, you're in a browser window,

2:33:00now you wanna go back to where you were.

2:33:02And that's the counterargument from the Android people

2:33:05as to why this is supposedly a good design.

2:33:08But among the many problems that I've had

2:33:11every time I've ever used an Android phone,

2:33:13no matter how long I've given with it,

2:33:15is that for every time that it works

2:33:17takes you back where you want to go there's all the another time where it

2:33:21takes you somewhere where you didn't want to go yeah they conflate enter and

2:33:26intra app navigation exactly so a lot of collisions that's exactly it in tra and

2:33:30inter app navigation and it's just and it's never labeled it's just a back

2:33:36button whereas in iOS it's extremely clear it tells you exactly where you'll

2:33:41be going back and it only it is only up there for when it remains contextually

2:33:48useful so like if you switch from mail to Safari it's up there and then if you

2:33:52just stick around in Safari making new tabs and stuff it goes away yeah it's

2:33:56great and the Safari view controller doesn't have a back button and now it's

2:33:59you can't just swipe backwards but then there's collisions about swiping back

2:34:03inside the view controller and through the app so I understand why that's like

2:34:07that but you can just see so almost you don't have to do the double-click

2:34:10and then try to hunt for your app,

2:34:12or go to the home screen and try to hunt back

2:34:13where you're going to.

2:34:14You can just go to an app, go right back.

2:34:16And the iPhone is a single column.

2:34:18It's not like the iPad where, for example,

2:34:20you can just tap a bunch of messages in the list view

2:34:23and see the details change quickly.

2:34:24You had to tap, go to another message,

2:34:26tap, go to another message, tap messages, go out.

2:34:29And they have done all this stuff from the backlink

2:34:31and the deep linking to the 3D Touch

2:34:33to make navigating a single column interface

2:34:35just almost accelerated.

2:34:37- Yeah, I think, you know, if there's anything

2:34:41that surprised me in how much it's affected,

2:34:43just not affected, like it's like revolutionized

2:34:45my use of the iPhone, or iOS in general,

2:34:49'cause all of this applies to the iPad as well,

2:34:51but it's that stuff.

2:34:55- Yeah, I just, I can't live without it,

2:34:58and I went back to using an iOS 8.4 device

2:35:00when Apple Music was coming out,

2:35:01and I kept trying to hit it and it wasn't there,

2:35:03and it really was a blockage on my entire device.

2:35:06- Anything else you wanna say before we truly wrap it up?

2:35:10I mean, I could talk to you for another three hours

2:35:13about iOS 9, but we've gotta go.

2:35:16- The multitasking, I really like the multitasking.

2:35:19I mean, it's limited on other devices,

2:35:21but they did give the slide over,

2:35:22so even if you're on an older iPad, you can use that.

2:35:24But just the ability to have multiple apps there,

2:35:26and to start, you don't necessarily need it all the time,

2:35:29but when you do need it, if you're watching something

2:35:30and tweets are coming in, or if you're trying to write notes

2:35:33while you're referring to a webpage,

2:35:34It's another way where it just enables you to do more

2:35:37without continuously carouseling out to a different app.

2:35:40And that, to me, is a tremendous time saver.

2:35:42- Yeah, and I think the thing you have to get used to is,

2:35:45and it'll come to you if you don't even think about it,

2:35:47but what you have to get used to is

2:35:49if you see two things on screen at once,

2:35:50the one on the left is primary

2:35:52and the one on the right is secondary.

2:35:54Even if you're 50/50, even if, like on the iPad,

2:35:57you've gone to 50/50, if you Command + Tab,

2:35:59the Command + Tab is switching the primary,

2:36:03and the secondary is still secondary.

2:36:05And you just remember it, just remember that primary's

2:36:07on the left, secondary's on the right.

2:36:08And you can switch 'em if you want.

2:36:10And it all just sort of makes sense as the thing on the left

2:36:16is exactly what you're used to in iOS since forever,

2:36:20and the thing on the right is a new thing you're able to do,

2:36:22which is you're allowed to have a secondary thing

2:36:24open on the right.

2:36:25And it's, you know, if anybody out there is concerned

2:36:30that this is adding, I mean, it's obviously

2:36:32is adding complexity, but it's not adding to me confusion.

2:36:37- And you don't have to, I mean, it's one of those things

2:36:42where like, there's people who just don't know

2:36:44that notification center or control center are there.

2:36:47They have a wonderful experience without any of that stuff,

2:36:49but if you do need more, it's almost like depth of design.

2:36:52People who are just nominally interested,

2:36:54they get the first layer and they're happy,

2:36:56but if you wanna put in the effort and dig deeper,

2:36:58you have greater levels of functionality.

2:36:59I think that's a really good way of staging design.

2:37:02- Yeah, it's amazing how much that they've gotten

2:37:04out of side swipes over the years.

2:37:06- Yes.

2:37:07- You know, from, and I don't think there was anything.

2:37:09I think in the original iPhone there was nothing

2:37:10that you got from any of the sides.

2:37:12'Cause there was no control center.

2:37:13No control center, no navigation, no notification center.

2:37:18And now it's, you know, but it's,

2:37:22if you've discovered either of those things,

2:37:24the way that you saw it slide in from the side

2:37:27to open up a second app is very natural.

2:37:30- Yeah, and it's the same thing with 3D Touch,

2:37:32they're using it consistently,

2:37:33and consistency is a user-facing feature,

2:37:35because if you can't predict and rely on it,

2:37:37you stop trying, but if it's there,

2:37:38when you just don't even think about using it,

2:37:40it just becomes natural,

2:37:41then it becomes part of your workflow.

2:37:43- Yeah, that's one of the things I'm really curious about

2:37:45as iOS 9 rolls out into the real world,

2:37:47is as I go into a coffee shop

2:37:50and see what devices people are using,

2:37:52I'm keen to, and airports is another place

2:37:56where I always do it, but keen to see

2:37:58whether this becomes something like when you're going back

2:38:01to your seat from the restroom on an airplane

2:38:03and you're just looking at what devices people are using,

2:38:05how many people are using split screen iPads.

2:38:10- Yeah, and with keyboards and pencils.

2:38:12- Yeah, exactly.

2:38:13Renee, Richie, thank you for your time.

2:38:17People can get more Renee.

2:38:19Number one, you can go to iMore.com right now

2:38:22and find his comprehensive iOS 9 review.

2:38:28On Twitter, you are Rene Ritchie.

2:38:31- Yes.

2:38:32- And your podcasts, what are all your podcasts?

2:38:35I always forget.

2:38:36- I do debug with Guy English,

2:38:38where we talk to developers about developer stuff.

2:38:41We do vector with Georgia and Guy and Dave Whiskis,

2:38:44which is more about how humanity affects technology.

2:38:46And I do iterate with Seth and Mark Edwards about design.

2:38:50- Well, there we go.

2:38:52Talented podcasts are prolific.

2:38:53Slow down a little bit, all right?

2:38:55- I'm trying, I am.

2:38:57and I'll talk to you soon.

2:38:59Thanks for the good work and thanks for your time.