106: ‘Star Wars Holiday Spectacular’ With Guests John Siracusa and Guy English

0:00:00[MUSIC PLAYING]

0:00:03So I don't know how well this is going to work.

0:00:18When's the last time I've had more than one person

0:00:20on the show?

0:00:20Probably when I was on stage at WWDC.

0:00:23It'll work out fine.

0:00:24You'll see.

0:00:24We're doing a couple for 10 people.

0:00:26It'll be fine.

0:00:27Yeah, that's what I thought.

0:00:27Yeah, and John and I have talked enough before.

0:00:29We get the gist in my basic gist though is let's shoot the shit on Star Wars for two hours

0:00:36Movies so you know what's funny before you before you said this side

0:00:39I wanted to tell you to do the Christmas spectacular again this year except then actually have a guest I thought about

0:00:46we

0:00:48And it's actually to screw people and it's actually Syracuse it well. That's what it is here

0:00:53we are making up for last year where it was a total sham and

0:00:56I got a

0:00:58surprising amount of email from people who told me that in that we must have screwed up the editing because we cut it off before

0:01:04John or Marco made it. Well, I mean they were a little bit in the back

0:01:07They weren't really ready for the stage right now

0:01:09Poor molt

0:01:13His wife had to drive from home and that was not a pretty scene

0:01:17So have you guys done John you're on the the incomparable

0:01:24frequently frequently semi-frequently pretty frequently have you done Star Wars on the incomparable

0:01:29You obviously don't listen to the show. I don't listen to anybody shows. Yeah. No, I we have done

0:01:35all of the Star Wars movies the original Star Wars movies and

0:01:40We've done episode 1 & 2 for the prequels and we did but the Star Wars holiday special

0:01:46Well, see I've never seen that guy. Have you seen the Star Wars holiday special?

0:01:52No, and I don't want to yeah, especially after listening to the uncomfortable. I don't watch it. Don't don't watch yeah

0:01:57I I feel exactly the same way you did John like you were

0:02:00You sort of took one for the team there and now to watch it

0:02:03Yeah

0:02:03if I can if I can possibly avoid this is Jason's revenge for me making him watch like hours and hours of anime and

0:02:08play video games

0:02:11special a couple of years ago one of the sites published a

0:02:14like

0:02:17What do they call him now explainers?

0:02:18You know like this concept of an explainer which I kind of like it's sort of like a blog post

0:02:23crossed with like a Wikipedia entry

0:02:27Here's an exercise try to think of pretend the word explainer doesn't exist and then try to think of another phrase or

0:02:34Summary or description of what we now know as an explainer

0:02:38Because whenever I do it I come out with something that's insulting

0:02:44What would it be? I'm not sure. I don't know. It's like I mean I'm falling back on like the four dummies things or whatever

0:02:49Let me simplify this to the point where it seems understandable

0:02:54But what you're actually coming away from the article with is not a true understanding of the subject because it's really complicated

0:03:00Let me do it take a complicated thing and make it really simple

0:03:02Let me like it just I don't know explainers. I

0:03:06Understand why you but some people are attracted to the concept but the actual articles I've read that are described as explainers

0:03:13just leave me angry. Yeah, like overview, maybe it's a good summary, executive summary overview,

0:03:20like it's not much. I don't know, like whenever I read something that's described as an explainer,

0:03:25it's just like, you know, because no one like if there's an article in the Atlantic or something,

0:03:29nobody calls it an explainer. Like an article is supposed to explain things once you call it an

0:03:33explainer. That's like code for, oh, we're not actually going to get the real anyway,

0:03:38I'm unreasonably angry about explainer gone. I interrupt.

0:03:40Yeah, well, I remember I'd one that I remember that I appreciated was a one from Vox calm on I

0:03:47Don't know if it was Benghazi or or one of these things where it it seemed like I would have had to read

0:03:5320 articles to catch up and it didn't make any sense and I read their

0:03:58quote-unquote explainer and it kind of figure I

0:04:01Figured the whole thing out because you know in the gist of the explainer there like this is really nothing

0:04:07It's really just political with you see well

0:04:09they just did us call that the news that you would watch and it would tell you a summary of what's going on and

0:04:14Well, anyway, somebody wrote an explainer on the Star Wars holiday special and they had a just enough screen caps where I was like

0:04:21Holy cow, it really is worse than the terrible reputation would have you believe and so I knew I never had to watch it

0:04:27Yeah, and not only that as I said in the uncomfortable thing

0:04:30It's not even the type of thing if you care about Star Wars at all that you can watch and be like haha laugh at

0:04:35It's so bad. You know what I mean. You can't even do that. It's just it's just bad. It just it's not fun

0:04:40It's not interesting and if you care about Star Wars, it will hurt you and it was shot on video

0:04:45It's so bad how shot is the least of its problems so we're having a holiday special

0:04:51We're talking about Star Wars, but it has nothing to do with the star ways Star Wars holiday

0:04:55Spectacular or whatever they called it

0:05:00Not yet at least.

0:05:02Alright, and also I only want to talk about the movies.

0:05:05The whole expanded universe thing is a pile of crap as far as I'm concerned.

0:05:09Yeah, I don't mind the cartoons as much but I don't.

0:05:12They're a different thing. You know what I mean? Like if the movies are like a good steak dinner,

0:05:17they're kind of like a beef jerky that you'd buy at a corner store.

0:05:19You know what I mean? They're meat, but you know, not really the same kind of thing.

0:05:25Have you watched all of the cartoons, Clone Wars and now the Star Wars Rebels?

0:05:30I have and there's some there's some things to commend them to some Star Wars II stuff, but I

0:05:35I don't see how they could possibly fit into the to the story that the movies are telling in any sensible way

0:05:42I mean, I actually feel the same way about the prequels

0:05:45So, you know, but it's you know, every now and then they light up a lightsaber and fun stuff happens

0:05:50There's spin-offs in the traditional sense where it's like, alright

0:05:54We'll make a TV show out of the movies and it's in the same universe and it's more or less fits in the same timeline

0:05:59But there's no specific expectation that they feel or behave exactly like the movie because they're not.

0:06:06They're an animated television show as opposed to movies.

0:06:10And for what they are, they're actually pretty decent.

0:06:13Wasn't the original premise for Star Wars Rebels, though, that it would be live action?

0:06:17There was talk of a live action Star Wars TV series a very long time ago.

0:06:24Around about the time I think the prequels were either in the process of being made or before they were made.

0:06:28And that seemed to fall by the wayside it just didn't it didn't didn't work out for whatever reason

0:06:33I forget what the actual situation was and more recently I've heard the idea of it coming back up again

0:06:39I'm not opposed to such a thing. I think it would be cool, but

0:06:42Clone Wars the the computer animated one was kind of weird because there was another

0:06:48Animated thing called the Clone Wars that was cell animated as opposed to CG

0:06:54Which was great.

0:06:55Yeah, it was very interesting.

0:06:57All of them very different stylistic choices than the movie.

0:07:00Wait, when was this?

0:07:03Around about the time of the prequels, around about the time of maybe I guess episode two

0:07:06or something.

0:07:07It was cell animated.

0:07:08It was before episode two.

0:07:10Very stylized, kind of looked like Samurai Jack.

0:07:12I don't know if it was the same guy.

0:07:13It was the same guy.

0:07:15And it was great.

0:07:16And you know what?

0:07:19It ends with the opening scene from episode two.

0:07:24The end of that arc, of that animation arc, ends with the invasion of, or the assault

0:07:28on Coruscant from the bad kids.

0:07:32Grievous's army.

0:07:33Grievous's army.

0:07:34Yeah, it shows up and they kidnap the chancellor.

0:07:38That's the final episode.

0:07:39Is it in the cel-shaded one or the CG one where you learn why General Grievous is all

0:07:43wheezy and everything?

0:07:44It's the shell shaded.

0:07:46Oh yeah, keep trying.

0:07:48Cell shaded.

0:07:49So are these things about...

0:07:50How come I'm not aware of this?

0:07:51How could that possibly be?

0:07:52Your kids are kind of the right age. I don't know the cel-shaded one. I don't I don't think Jonas was born yet

0:07:57But I saw that it wasn't it certainly wasn't as big as the clone but Clone Wars my son watching. What was it called?

0:08:03Clone Wars. Yeah, that's the problem. They're both called

0:08:06And I think well, here's the thing. I think you actually had to be a bit of an animation nerd to get into it

0:08:11Or to hear about it

0:08:13That's right. Like how did you hear about it John?

0:08:15From when those quicktime movies came but that's how I

0:08:19Do you think I'm gonna be able to get these on iTunes or something? I doubt it

0:08:23I would have found it by now right the CG Clone Wars has got to be available. Oh, yeah CG is I've

0:08:28Seen I I I to him. I'm completely caught up. I've seen every episode of the Clone Wars

0:08:33I saw the theatrical release which is really just a two-hour episode of the movie or the TV show

0:08:40And just recently caught up Jonas and I caught up on the I guess I think there's only seven episodes so far as Star Wars rebels

0:08:46right? Yeah, I believe so. Well if that's the case then I'm caught up.

0:08:49I like the way that the Rebels TV show is doesn't feature any of the characters from the feature

0:08:56films. Yeah but it's very clearly in the world and it's creeping up on a new hope timeline so

0:09:01you start seeing TIE fighters look like TIE fighters and you know the kind of rebels in the

0:09:06Empire in more or less the shapes that you would have expected but you know it's a totally different

0:09:11thing it's a you know different cast of characters doing different things within the same universe.

0:09:15There's a bit of a weirdness in that there are Jedis running around.

0:09:23Whereas as of New Hope, we know that there's, well, at least Yoda believes that there's

0:09:26no other Jedis.

0:09:28In hiding.

0:09:29I mean, you're gonna have a Star Wars show, it's a good idea to have some Jedis and some

0:09:33lightsabers in it.

0:09:34Oh yeah, in terms of the narrative device, yes, for sure.

0:09:36But I mean, it kind of goes against what we heard of Luke being the last Jedi, right?

0:09:41Yeah, that's what Yoda says on his deathbed.

0:09:43or no wait is it Empire or is it return of the Jedi when he's dying it might be return of the Jedi when he's

0:09:48dying and he says something to the effect of

0:09:50You know in ten seconds from now when I die he laughs last of the Jedi you will be

0:09:55He'll ask the it'll be the last accredited

0:09:59So I there's something new that I

0:10:07Have to learn but to see I don't know my way around the the underground internet

0:10:12So I don't know how I'm gonna get these cell-animated. Yeah, let's try made it once it there

0:10:16So I said I haven't been quicktime movies. They're probably like 320 by 200. I know

0:10:21postage stamps, you know, like what cook time used to look like I remember when that was the big size I remember when 160 by

0:10:27Yeah

0:10:29120 was the was the regular so it's cinepak compression is high fidelity though. So to look great

0:10:33Well, I'm surprised though that that didn't wasn't like a bigger deal

0:10:41well anyway, and what I understand is with the Disney purchase of Lucasfilm and the

0:10:45Archive and I talked mentioned this with Weskis a couple weeks ago that they're they're more or less saying with this movie all those

0:10:52Novels and shit that you've been reading for 20 years. That's all out the door. We're not looking at any of that and

0:10:57You know, none of that's canon anymore

0:11:00Yeah

0:11:01They have to do that because if they're gonna make it chronologically after return of the Jedi the expanded universe has like told all those

0:11:06Stories like 20 times over like we know what happens to all the characters that we love and there's two whole other bad guys and

0:11:11Good guys and like they just rung it out

0:11:14So if you can't put anything chronologically after jai unless you either do exactly what happened in the books

0:11:18Which would probably be a bad idea or put it way way way past where the books go or something and then say okay

0:11:24It's the distant distant, you know, it's way past. So and it was always called expanded universe

0:11:29So I think this is the only possible way to make a movie with the original actors. You just gotta say forget about the books

0:11:36Yeah, I read I think there's a there's a problem with fetishizing the cannon right like it's gonna hamstring your story

0:11:42Just go tell good movie stories and just don't worry about the rest

0:11:45Doesn't mean you can't meet those books and have fun, but you know you don't need them to be in the exact same

0:11:51canonical universe really

0:11:54Yeah, and I only read the first of those books the first one with the Grand Admiral Timothy's on yeah

0:12:02It was and it was so bad that you know, it it kept me from ever reading anymore

0:12:07But I at least am enough aware of what happened that it and one and I you know

0:12:12I saw the headlines that in one of the novels Chewbacca gets killed and you know

0:12:16There's no way they're not bringing Chewbacca back in the new movie

0:12:19No, everyone dies eventually

0:12:22Yeah, but if they're gonna kill him they're gonna kill him in the movie. They're not gonna they're not gonna just say well sure bist Chewbacca

0:12:30Like they did in like they did in last crusade where they just kind of panned over to a picture of Sean Connery on on his

0:12:37desk

0:12:38Yeah, because they couldn't get him to do the movie

0:12:40You mean indie for Oh indie for any for?

0:12:43What

0:12:48I always

0:12:50I like to pretend that that movie didn't happen. Yeah, it didn't happen. I don't know it

0:12:56Happened in the same screwed up universe at the prequels. Well, so episode 7 potentially

0:13:01is in the same kind of danger zone because everyone was excited about in d4 for a long time and they couldn't get the

0:13:07Principles together to do it by the time they did Harrison Ford was really old and it was like hmm

0:13:12You know, I don't know if they can pull this off. So here we have

0:13:14It works out a little bit better here because I think

0:13:17Chronologically speaking everyone is more comfortable with the actors being the age. They're supposed to be in episode 7

0:13:22It's like how many years of passing the Jedi?

0:13:24Well, that's exactly how much older you're supposed to be. So you're fine. We don't need any makeup

0:13:27This is what you look like when you're this age fine

0:13:29and and the other thing too it can the same point is there's clearly gonna be a cast of

0:13:3720 to 30 something heroes and villains who will be in major roles to do that sort of

0:13:45Running and jumping and falling stuff that you need who are not Shia LaBeouf

0:13:51Right right so that the you know the classic characters can all sort of take on the roles of like obi-wan's and grand Moff Tarkin's and

0:13:58Just be there be there that fear though like when they said I guess what everybody's coming back

0:14:03It's like oh geez everybody's coming back, and you start to worry that like it's going to be like their last hurrah

0:14:09And yeah, they'll be these young actors

0:14:11But like it'll be a movie for the oldsters, and they'll transition to the youngsters during the movie

0:14:16That that was the fear like you're gonna make us old guys run around for as long as you've got them

0:14:20and you'll kill some of them off or they'll kind of you know pass the baton and the next movie will

0:14:25be really about the youngsters but like what they like what they did with obi-wan in uh the phantom

0:14:30menace yeah kind of i mean like well it it's like you're we're going to introduce um what's going to

0:14:36be one of the flagship characters of the whole six movie series obi-wan kenobi and then we'll just

0:14:41spend the entire middle hour of the movie with him waiting on a spaceship in the desert yeah or like

0:14:48I mean, you just didn't know who the-- because we know so little about-- at least I know

0:14:51so little about the movie because I've been avoiding spoilers-- that just based on the

0:14:54casting alone, you say, "Well, given this cast, I can make a movie mostly about the

0:14:58old people and about the idea of, like, now they're past their prime and they're passing

0:15:01the baton on to a new generation, but this is their, like, one last heist or whatever,"

0:15:05you know, if you want to use another movie cliche.

0:15:08Or you could do a movie entirely about the young people, and these guys are just in supporting

0:15:12roles and there are brief glimpses of them or whatever.

0:15:15I still don't know what kind of movie it's gonna be, but based on the trailer, there's

0:15:18no old faces in the trailer at all.

0:15:19So there's a clear signal right out of the gate that says, "I know we've got all these

0:15:22great people, but this is a movie about these youngsters, and here they all are on the trailer,

0:15:27and we're not even gonna show you any of the other people."

0:15:29Yeah, who's flying the Falcon?

0:15:31Yeah, somebody.

0:15:32Well, I'm gonna...

0:15:33Somebody.

0:15:34Good answer.

0:15:35It's gotta be either Han or Lando, right?

0:15:37Chewie flies the Falcon.

0:15:39Han just gives orders.

0:15:41I don't know.

0:15:43Fly casual.

0:15:44It's a great line.

0:15:48Yeah, so I mean, starting out with our anticipation of The Force Awakens is as good a place as

0:15:55any, because it's really what motivated me to do the show, you know, to get me excited

0:15:58about Star Wars again, too.

0:16:00And the severe letdown.

0:16:05I would describe Indy 4 as more of a letdown than even The Phantom Menace.

0:16:10I would not disagree.

0:16:12I disagree.

0:16:13Yeah.

0:16:14You would not disagree?

0:16:14You think anything's moving?

0:16:15- I would not disagree.

0:16:16No, episode one is the biggest cinematic disappointment

0:16:21of our generation because of just the massive anticipation.

0:16:26And like, it was promised, it was foretold, right?

0:16:31We wanted to know what happened in this whole, you know,

0:16:33how did Anakin turn into Darth Vader?

0:16:36What's the whole deal?

0:16:37You know, like we wanted to know.

0:16:38We were promised like a nine movie arc

0:16:40in the fan magazines for so long.

0:16:42And we waited and waited.

0:16:43Whereas Indy 4 was like, I suppose they can make another Indy movie, but if they never make another one

0:16:47I feel satisfied that the arc of Indy, you know, he had three good movies

0:16:51Well, two good movies and another movie that was okay

0:16:54And that's fine. Like you weren't aching to know something that has been

0:16:58Talked about or alluded to for the entire run of the series

0:17:02So whether or not they made another Indy 4 you wouldn't satisfied with Star Wars was just massively anticipated with a huge gap in between

0:17:08And the disappointment I think was even more crushing because I've only seen Indy 4 once but

0:17:13But my recollection is it was not as incompetently made as Phantom Menace.

0:17:18It's like the Johnny Dangerously joke.

0:17:20I saw Nd4 once.

0:17:22Once.

0:17:23Once.

0:17:24God, we're all making that joke.

0:17:26So you and Whiskers were talking about excitement about the new Bond or the new Star Wars.

0:17:33And hands down, it's gotta be the new Star Wars.

0:17:35Yeah, for next year.

0:17:36As much as I like Bond.

0:17:37But I mean, come on.

0:17:38Like, new Star Wars?

0:17:39There's what, 25 Bonds now?

0:17:41Yeah, the Bond has the out that it's like, "Alright, there's gonna be some bad Bond movies,

0:17:45there's gonna be some good ones, we're currently in an upswing because everyone loves Daniel Craig."

0:17:49And like, no matter how big a Bond fan you are, you're like, "Well, this is a bad Bond, but I'll wait."

0:17:53Like, it's evergreen, in the same way we were just mentioning Zelda before,

0:17:57in the same way that the Zelda franchise is.

0:17:58You're like, "Well, I don't like this Bond, I like it different."

0:18:00You don't have to worry about continuity, you don't have to worry about actors aging out,

0:18:04they'll just-- or like Doctor Who, they'll just rotate in a new guy,

0:18:06there'll be ups and downs and it's fine.

0:18:08Whereas Star Wars is a defined continuity in story with specific actors playing specific characters that doesn't have that out

0:18:14So it's like it's got oh, it's got a count. You don't get a million shots. Well, even if specter ends up stinking

0:18:19We would get just as excited next time when whatever they cast is just over

0:18:24Yeah, like it would just be reset you like any expectations would be fine like oh cool another new one

0:18:29Yeah, I think it's safe to say I think I forget exactly when Goldeneye came out

0:18:33But I would say in the last 20 years we've had four pretty good Bond movies

0:18:37We've had GoldenEye and then the three Daniel Craig ones. So in 20 years, we've already we've got four good ones under our belt

0:18:43So it does a dud, you know next year wouldn't weigh us down. Yeah, like a swing and a miss is not weird

0:18:49I don't understand your attraction to GoldenEye, but I'm willing to concede that we've had a

0:18:53Pretty good set of Bond movies sprinkled throughout the bad ones and even the bad ones are like well, whatever, you know, right?

0:19:01Yeah, I don't love gold Star Wars on the other hand. We're drawing in. Yeah. Yeah

0:19:07Well, but I do think the long term, and this is another reason I thought to convene this,

0:19:13and you know, I've done specials on Bond back in the day with Dan, and now we're doing Star

0:19:18Wars.

0:19:19I do think though that ultimately, like 20, 25 years from now, we'll look back at Star

0:19:23Wars as a sort of Bond-like franchise where I think we're going to see an endless series

0:19:29of trilogies.

0:19:30Well, we hope so, because when it was tied up in Lucas, like Lucas is the one who waited

0:19:3416 years or whatever to give us episode 1 and it was all because he controlled everything no

0:19:39I'm not gonna say no cooperation would ever have waited that long because it'd be like you're sitting on this cash cow

0:19:44What are you doing right?

0:19:46And turning it into a franchise frees it from the constraints and I suppose by the time this new trilogy is over

0:19:53We'll also free it from the constraints of those characters that we know and love because they'll all be too old or dead

0:19:58Certainly the actors will and then you're free to do whatever you want within this universe

0:20:02Which you could have done all along but because Lucas didn't want to do that that never happened, right?

0:20:06so I have I have a weird take on that maybe that I

0:20:10So I obviously love the universe

0:20:14I like stories being told in the universe

0:20:16but I'm kind of of the opinion that the universe exists in order to tell us like the you know, the

0:20:22Vader redemption story and the Luke becomes a hero story and

0:20:26While it's fun to go play in that playground, I don't know if

0:20:32I don't know if the value of the universe is worth it.

0:20:37Like maybe you can have another universe

0:20:42to tell other interesting stories.

0:20:43Do you know what I mean?

0:20:44Like it seems like just because you've got this well-defined

0:20:47sort of universe that's being laid out

0:20:49to tell this particular story,

0:20:51the fact that you can shoehorn other stories into it

0:20:53is cool, but maybe not the best use

0:20:58of your storytelling skills.

0:20:59- It's not really shoehorning.

0:21:01It's kind of like in the Star Trek universe where like the story of Captain Kirk and the

0:21:05Enterprise is one story and but what you're left with when you're done with that story

0:21:10or you set it aside is essentially a sci-fi a fleshed out sci-fi universe with a built-in

0:21:15audience and it's really just an excuse to make sci-fi movies like I'm looking for anything

0:21:20that will that will let sci-fi movies be made where they don't have to be constrained by

0:21:25world building because everyone understands the Star Trek universe that's why I mean they

0:21:29it for TV, you know, Deep Space Nine and all the next generation. It's like next generation

0:21:33is not Captain Kirk again, right? But it is the Enterprise or whatever and all the way

0:21:37over to, you know, the, the more, you know, Voyager and stuff like that. I mean, I'm not

0:21:41saying that those are all great examples of what you can do. But the idea is once you

0:21:44have an established sci fi universe, you can do lots of interesting sci fi things in it.

0:21:49And I want to see more sci fi. I think there's not enough of it. And every time someone wants

0:21:53to do something sci fi ish, they are faced with the problem of I have to describe the

0:21:58the sci-fi world before I can even tell my story.

0:22:00Yeah, you spend 30 minutes establishing the world.

0:22:0430 minutes if you're lucky sometimes to spend the whole movie doing it.

0:22:07I think what you need is exactly what you said, Guy, but it lets the writer just concentrate

0:22:12on just give us a handful of really interesting protagonists and antagonists who have an arc,

0:22:21you know, and then you have a world to put them in immediately.

0:22:24But give them a different, you know, just give them, give us somebody, don't give us

0:22:27a new version of Vader for God's sake don't just you know yeah in a way it's

0:22:31like yeah like all of these superhero movies sort of fault because they end up

0:22:35telling the origin story over and over again well that's because they don't

0:22:39have a universe they have like each if superheroes universe in and up to itself

0:22:42it's not like we've established universe now we can just tell stories it's like

0:22:44well I have a new character who the heck is Iron Man well I've got to tell you

0:22:48Iron Man is no new Captain America wait a second who is Captain America each

0:22:51character is a universe the universe they're in is just normal there's

0:22:55nothing about like, whereas the Star Wars universe, the Star Trek universe, you have rules about like, how do people get from place to place? How is the system of government organized? How do the alien races get along roughly? And the beauty of Star Wars is that these stories, the original story that's told within the universe, so many things are hinted at and touched on, that may be interesting that are already there. Like you just want to have an entire story about the, you know,

0:23:19Yeah, yeah, what happened to Nord Bandale?

0:23:21Yeah, I actually really want to find out like and and you can take that you can end up with like I'm gonna do a bounty

0:23:26Hunter story not Boba Fett

0:23:27Maybe something else if you're lucky and you give this to the right people you can end up with a new mini franchise where say there's

0:23:32Some bounty hunter that uses a very charismatic actor that becomes like a cross between

0:23:36Indiana Jones and Han Solo but in the Star Wars universe and

0:23:40They get a series of movies and like you don't never know which one is gonna hit in the same way

0:23:44You never know which one of these the superhero movies is gonna hit but there's lots of things that have been touched upon

0:23:49They could say, "Oh, we could try that as a movie."

0:23:51And the stakes are low.

0:23:52You're like, "Well, this is mostly going to be...

0:23:54You can make a Star Wars heist movie, or you can make a sort of...

0:24:01Like the Clone Wars did a lot, like a Rebel Academy type movie, where it's more like Top

0:24:04Gun and they're jockeying to be the best X-wing pilot.

0:24:07So many movies you can make in this universe with things that are already established that

0:24:11can just be plain old science fiction space movies.

0:24:13Right.

0:24:14Okay.

0:24:15Yeah.

0:24:16I feel better about it now.

0:24:17Yeah.

0:24:18protagonist bounty hunter is a little bit more like a

0:24:20Privateer well like a real bounty hunter though who's looking to bring people in alive not never really an assassin

0:24:27You know, it's let's face it would like Boba Fett

0:24:29Some of the other like those guys no no disintegration, right?

0:24:33Who's maybe like Han, you know or like like Indy the way that Indy kept losing out to Belloq everything

0:24:39He went for Belloq at first like a guy who's you you want to root for because he's you know, he's not evil

0:24:45He just you know, he's just a bit of a rogue, but he keeps losing out to IG 88 or something like that

0:24:49And IG 88 keeps disintegrating it's his bounty

0:24:54Yeah, I mean they are doing like so then you have the three

0:24:57Episode seven eight and nine that they're doing right and there's also going to be

0:25:01Stand-alone movies and dispersed to them in my understanding and the standalone movies will feature

0:25:05You know one of them will feature like Boba Fett and one of them, you know with the well-known characters

0:25:09But that's trying starting to establish the cadence of like art. There's a trilogy

0:25:13There's an arc here for these three movies that's gonna be a main story

0:25:16But then we're gonna start having these standalones to get people used to the idea and I bet you if any one of those standalones like

0:25:22Really catches like oh that standalone

0:25:24You know those characters that set or that conflict or whatever now spins off into its own little mini arc like

0:25:29It's giving you the freedom to try a bunch of things see which one sticks without people being upset of you know

0:25:35They're like, oh, yeah

0:25:36There's the only three chances we get episode one two and three and one episode one stinks

0:25:40Well, maybe episode two will be good episode two sucks off forget it now

0:25:42There's no hope for episode 3 and that's it. Yeah. I'm actually really excited about

0:25:468 and 9 because it's it's

0:25:49Fender the show every on Johnson, right? Well, at least writing we don't know. I don't think you're buying you pronounce it, right? Yeah

0:25:55I don't think I think he's directing an 8 and then he's doing the

0:25:58Sort of the treatment for 9 I thought but maybe I'm confused. I I'm not quite sure what's

0:26:05Official on that but either way, it's pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome

0:26:11Because episode 7 is going to set up the conflict that I assume will play out over the course of the next three movies.

0:26:16I do think that's the strength of J.J. Abrams though. He does a great setup.

0:26:20Yeah, I just hope it's a strong arc because that like...

0:26:23In, you know, so the original trilogy had such a strong thing of like an iconic villain and an iconic hero, a young hero.

0:26:33The hero gets to evolve over the course of the thing, but it's such a clear conflict.

0:26:37Rebel Empire Luke Vader a little bit of twisting some Yoda, you know

0:26:41Yoda stuff in there and I am your father and all this stuff like that is such a good satisfying sturdy simple arc

0:26:47And modern movies I find tend to over complicate things with like too much

0:26:53I don't know

0:26:56Not gonna say too much nuance

0:26:57but like

0:26:58It's that the bones are not as sturdy like there always has to be a lot of a lot of things in the mix and

0:27:04It's it's just Star Wars for me seems to be

0:27:06be more about clarity, simplicity, and sturdiness of, you know, archetypes.

0:27:12And you have to do it well.

0:27:14And that's what you can hang your three movies on.

0:27:17I don't want to duplicate it.

0:27:19The talk show research department has just beat me.

0:27:22According to IMDB at least, Rian Johnson has been named as the director for both episodes

0:27:278 and 9.

0:27:28Oh, cool.

0:27:29Okay.

0:27:30So that is good.

0:27:31That's good, because I like Looper a lot.

0:27:32Now, I do agree with that, and I think what John just said is in a nutshell, and I feel

0:27:35like we can continue on for most of the rest of the show and sort of compare the

0:27:39first trilogy versus the prequel trilogy in detail and in broad strokes but in

0:27:44broad strokes the single biggest problem between the two well it's hard to say

0:27:48it's the single biggest because there's maybe three or four enormous problems

0:27:51but one one of them is the simple lack of clarity over who's the good guys and

0:27:56who's the bad guys in the first one right before you ever see anything it

0:28:00You see the logo, you hear the fanfare, and it's already very exciting because it's a cool logo, and it's really cool

0:28:07Fanfare to start the theme song and then boom you get the scroll and the scroll says right at the beginning of the scroll

0:28:14There's these good guy rebels who've just won their first victory against the evil

0:28:20Galactic Empire and there that you've already got the basic gist of it

0:28:24You could if you're a little kid and you can't even read that fast if you could at least get that first paragraph

0:28:30Rebels win first victory against evil Galactic Empire. Just right there, evil.

0:28:35And then all of a sudden you miss the rest of the words and then you see a

0:28:38little tiny spaceship being chased by an enormous badass looking spaceship. You

0:28:43know exactly what's going on. You've already got it. Good guys, outgunned, bad

0:28:48guys, enormous resources. And that's the whole three movies right there.

0:28:53Yeah, the prequel setup, like the type of movie it would have to be to

0:28:59use that type of setup is like it would have to be kind of like not even this even this

0:29:05is simpler like like like Rome on HBO or like you know it's all about political intrigue

0:29:10and the fall of a decadent empire and that is a much more complicated story than you

0:29:15know underdog rebels versus oppressive empire you know like it's it's it's a different story

0:29:22it's like it's like turning it into a political thriller it's like well that's not really

0:29:26what Star Wars is and then you fail to confidently execute a sort of geopolitical thriller because

0:29:34geopolitical thrillers don't have a lot of spaceship chases and gunfights like they're

0:29:37all about backroom dealings and and you know it's like what is it House of Cards in space

0:29:43like they just it's not no one involved in that movie was equipped to do that the script

0:29:47didn't support it the characters didn't support and that's not the story we wanted to hear

0:29:50we wanted to hear hey this Darth Vader guy who supposedly was nice turned into Darth

0:29:54That's what we wanted to hear you got three movies to tell me that and you're just like actually I want to tell you about

0:29:58The the fall of the decadent Jedi and I'll do a really crappy job of it. No not interested and you did a bad job

0:30:04Yeah, I think it's yeah, it's two levels deep or one you didn't want a political thriller anyway, and two the political thriller

0:30:12That George Lucas wrote and made zero sense whatsoever

0:30:15And I don't mean that in a small sense and like to exaggerate how little sense it make it just it just doesn't hold any

0:30:21water at all. I can see the story he was going for because you it's sort of like this is he tells you

0:30:29flat out like this is you know he has characters say things that are basically like the text of

0:30:33the movie you know and went with the emperor saying stuff it's like that I can imagine a story

0:30:41like that as like a side story or as like maybe one of the expanded universe novels describing

0:30:46the fall of the republic and why the republic fell but it would have to involve entirely different

0:30:50characters and it would have nothing to do with Darth Vader or anything we cared about

0:30:55knowing in these prequels.

0:30:57I always think it's a mistake to tell the backstory of your most intriguing villain

0:31:01or anti-hero. Because all you can do is lessen them. Like, a lot of their power comes in

0:31:08there from being mysterious.

0:31:09Well, no, you can, because here's the thing with Vader. Vader is a cartoon villain in

0:31:12the first movie and by the final movie you sympathize with him. So that's the arc of

0:31:16his character.

0:31:17Yeah, so that's it. You're done. That's what I mean.

0:31:19But you still want to know how did Vader get to the place where he is in A New Hope?

0:31:23How did this supposedly sympathetic person come in?

0:31:27I always compare it to the best case scenario of this is the Godfather series, not counting

0:31:31movie three, where you take Michael Corleone, who is a good person, smart, he means well,

0:31:39he's thrust into a difficult situation, and he tries to do the right thing in every time

0:31:44he's presented with a decision, he tries to do what he thinks is the right thing for himself

0:31:47and his family and a series of what he thinks are good decisions lead him to the place where he is at the end of

0:31:52Godfather 2

0:31:54It's how can a good person make a series of moves they think are right end up in a super dark place

0:32:00And the Godfather is obviously this is a high bar right you know, but if you want to say

0:32:04Goodfellas does the same thing in a way, right?

0:32:06Bad place is being witness protection like yeah, that's more like how do things fall apart whereas what you want to know in Vader

0:32:14Is how do things come together?

0:32:15How do they come to a head where you are just this net, you know?

0:32:18Where you are the one of the the top people in the Empire and eventually with the end of the Death Star by the time

0:32:24Empire strikes back you are you know, the the fist of the Empire crushing everybody else

0:32:29You're like this was a good person. How'd that happen? And so we catch it at the end, right?

0:32:34I would like to see the story of how does this good person fall into that because that can be a variant

0:32:39I like that story. It's kind of like I don't know what you would call it. It's a it's a tragedy

0:32:43It's the downfall of a great person

0:32:45It's a person who you care about who you identify with is it through all through the godfather moves you feel for Michael Corleone you

0:32:50Identify with him you you you feel like he is the the protagonist that he is the good of which is why godfather 2

0:32:56Is so brilliant like this is the good guy like it it takes you through that journey and realizes

0:33:00Makes you realize along with everyone else in the movie that this this arc has bent in a particular direction

0:33:05I would like to see that movie about Anakin so I so I agree with you. I would like I'm sure

0:33:11You know since I was a kid. I've always been curious about how

0:33:13Anakin like Luke's father turned to the dark side that that's fascinating

0:33:19but I think the degree of difficulty of telling that story in a satisfactory manner is

0:33:23So high that you basically just run the risk of ruining

0:33:27The character well you could rate is basically ruined if you pay attention to this the prequels Vader sucks

0:33:34Basically, I just associate them

0:33:37Yeah, you have to you have to write because you can't believe that that's the same guy and you don't

0:33:42You don't root for him. Really? I mean, yeah

0:33:45Michael Corleone is a good example because you do root for Michael and you sympathize with his decisions

0:33:51Like I mean, I think clearly probably the biggest decision, you know that starts him on a path

0:33:56He's never gonna get out of his when he volunteers to

0:33:58I don't remember its name, but he's oh, yeah kill so lots

0:34:03So is you know all of a sudden he's not you know up until then on the on paper. He is clean

0:34:10He's a war hero

0:34:11He's you know I think he's college educated

0:34:14You know his father said blood all over your Ivy League shirt or something like that

0:34:17Yeah, is you know he's he's set up for a career in politics and where maybe his family isn't clean

0:34:22He is like somebody could look at whatever he's done, and if they knew the truth

0:34:26They'd find out that you know he was a good kid from a you know gangster family

0:34:30Whereas once he pulls the hit on Salazzo that's you know

0:34:33He's got to keep that secret and it's motivated by love of family love right there like so here's the thing they could you know

0:34:39He said I go it's very difficult to tell that story

0:34:41One of the the videos that John sent around that he wanted us to watch before this was the kid bash thing

0:34:46Where they were trying to show some of the influences that George Lucas has been intercutting those influences into the the video of a new hope

0:34:56like like George Lucas was inspired by you know these Carrasa movies and westerns and Flash Gordon and

0:35:01He just pulls nose and puts the movie and the modern example that I love the best is look at Quentin Tarantino

0:35:06All the movies all the genres of movies that he loved particular movies particular scenes particular images that he grew up with

0:35:12he repurposes and and

0:35:14remixes and filters through his own mind and imagination and make something

0:35:18Greater than the whole if you wanted to tell the downfall of Darth Vader story and you didn't have any better ideas

0:35:24You can do that same appropriation and remixing directly from gangster movies the Godfather or like you said Goodfellas or any

0:35:30there are so many sources for you to

0:35:32perform the same creative function of saying I mean you could you could just pull that story straight out and

0:35:38Use that as the bones to have with and use particular scenes and like, you know

0:35:42Just there are there other examples of this type of story from cinema and it is essentially a tragedy and even when we know the ending

0:35:49That makes it all the more poignant because the first few movies you'd really wanted to have us identifying

0:35:54With and rooting for Anakin and then at the end it would be all the all the worst for the audience

0:35:59They would feel terrible that they know what's coming kind of like Titanic me

0:36:02You know the boats gonna sink right but you just got you got a build-up

0:36:04And then have the sinking be meaningful because now you've become attached to these characters, right?

0:36:09Well, you know, there's even like historical precedent like I don't know Caesar and Rome like where he goes and basically becomes the Emperor

0:36:15That's it seems like a decent model for

0:36:18For the takeover of the Republic, right and you know, it's gonna happen to him too

0:36:23They've told that story many times exactly. No, it's not gonna happen to Caesar

0:36:26You just gotta how can I tell that story so that I care when it happens?

0:36:29Yeah, knowing that knowing knowing the ending is actually a very well

0:36:33It's a well trodden path for for especially I think tragic fiction

0:36:40I mean Shakespeare all the shit most of so many of Shakespeare's plays were not original stories. They were either historical

0:36:47Or they were these you know parables that had been passed down by spoken word for a hundred years people knew the gist of them

0:36:55All he did was do them really really well with really clever dialogue and really crisply defined characters

0:37:03But the fact that people knew where they were going

0:37:05Emphasizes the tragedy of it. Mm-hmm. It's like the Hitchcock thing where the Hitchcock thing was

0:37:09Have the bomb under the guy's chair the character doesn't know the bomb there's but show the audience the bomb under the chair

0:37:15So the audience knows ahead of time that there's a bomb in the chair by the characters don't know

0:37:18So when you know Anakin's gonna turn if you're rooting for Anakin everything Anakin does that brings him closer to the dark side

0:37:24You're like the audience knows like no Anakin is a bomb under your seat

0:37:26You're gonna turn don't you see you know what I mean?

0:37:28Like you this is ample precedent for how to do this

0:37:31Well, this is it wasn't done. Well doesn't mean it couldn't be right you you lose the surprise and you gain

0:37:37Tremendous tension tension that lasts whereas like and I think in that the other side of that Hitchcock

0:37:43Parable, you know his advice on show the audience the bomb under and put it under a little girl's seat

0:37:48I have it a little girl eating a piece of popcorn and you show the bomb that's under her seat

0:37:51He said, you know everybody's first instinct though

0:37:55if they're making a thriller is to make the bomb a secret and

0:37:59We don't find it goes off until it goes off and that makes us the real audience no different than the audience in the theater

0:38:05Where the bomb is and he says it's you know

0:38:07You you surprised you can surprise the hell out of the audience that way but there's no there's no tension

0:38:13Mm-hmm, you know the tension is what what makes cinema interesting

0:38:17I think that it there

0:38:25Yeah, there's there's there's just no arc with Anakin in the in the prequel trilogy

0:38:31it's all just

0:38:34Annoying annoying annoying annoying annoying and then all of a sudden with 45 minutes to go flip to the dark side

0:38:40So I don't for no good reason I mean we'll talk about this when we do the episode 3 and the incomparable

0:38:45I'm sure but it's like you've got three movies to explain why this guy's gonna turn and just the movie

0:38:50hours are ticking by and you're talking about the Emperor and you're talking about people running around shooting each other and

0:38:55other

0:38:57Insequential things and at no point you're like so so why is he gonna suddenly turn evil?

0:39:02Oh because the script tells him to like god. I guess and now I kill children sure that comes yeah, right that fits perfect

0:39:08It just doesn't make any sense

0:39:09Yeah, I was so shattered after the like the original teaser trailer for Phantom Menace

0:39:15There's one shot of Anakin

0:39:18Standing and everybody's cheering him and Anakin the little boy

0:39:22And I totally had this weird

0:39:25Like my interpretation was that he's just so force powerful that everybody thinks he's awesome

0:39:30And he and it basically is his ego is gonna end up eating him and turning him to invader

0:39:34And then it turned out it was whatever because he ran a goofy

0:39:38Padres which

0:39:40What'll let down like there's so many rich things that they could have done with that character

0:39:44That is a simplified way to go like oh, he's super powerful

0:39:46It goes to his head like that's more of the Marvel villain type of thing where if you're super yes

0:39:51And you're just like you know what I'm such a super genius everyone else on earth. They're just like ants to me

0:39:56I should rule over them, and they're crap you know that's one way to go

0:39:59It's a little bit more cartoonish villain

0:40:01It is definitely not a sophisticated as a micro core

0:40:03the only thing is that's what you want to happen because the arc promise in the original trilogy is that

0:40:07Vader is actually a

0:40:09thinking feeling sympathetic person who finally connects with Luke and has a you know

0:40:14Cares for his son repents for his sin dies for them

0:40:18and you know has like that's the person that you're promised and

0:40:23The the crazy egomaniac it's difficult to reconcile that was say

0:40:28I think you have to go kind of a Marco Carl Jung where it's like he did want to do the right thing and they

0:40:32tried you that it's like

0:40:33Anakin is whiny and annoying and the romance angle, there's no chemistry there.

0:40:38There's... romance is a way you can kind of go bad, but that's more like...

0:40:42leads you into a crime of passion. It doesn't lead you to become...

0:40:46you know, rule over a giant empire and kill all the Jedi and start by slaughtering children.

0:40:50And then it's like, well, I really didn't want my mom to die, so I guess now I should

0:40:53kill these children because some guy promised me I'll be able to help people stay alive.

0:40:56Like, if you want people to stay alive, you're not gonna be killing children.

0:40:59I don't know. It doesn't make any sense.

0:41:01Yeah. There's some other disappointing stuff there where they advertise him as being incredibly

0:41:10powerful, more powerful than you know. And he doesn't do anything powerful. I felt that

0:41:16they sort of lost an opportunity in the second movie when, first of all I don't like any of

0:41:22this, but when the Sand People have captured his mother and he loses it, I kind of just wanted them

0:41:27to just force destroy this city you know the the encampment like just tear it apart with his mind

0:41:34if you want to go with that angle like the he that he's super powerful then you can start pulling

0:41:39from child prodigy movies you know exactly where they're child prodigies who are very good or you

0:41:44know you can do like a bobby fisher type thing like they're yeah a chess genius or like you know

0:41:48an ender's game type thing where they're they're a child and they have amazing powers but they're not

0:41:53not emotionally ready to deal with them and you know but that wasn't played up

0:41:57like he was he was but it wasn't about his strength otherwise he was just like

0:42:02it's pretty good Jedi seems fine yeah he seems I mean he's seems to equivalent

0:42:07power to Obi-Wan yeah he's not as wise he's stupid he doesn't listen to

0:42:11instructions but he's not super like the Jedi powers are kind of like the Marvel

0:42:15powers and that depending on the scene especially in the prequels there there's

0:42:19There's no real arc to the Jedi powers, and it's not clear what they're able to do or

0:42:24not able to do.

0:42:25Like, whereas in the original trilogy--

0:42:26>> CHIP/JASON Yeah, it's whatever the writer needs at the time.

0:42:28>> MIKE Yeah, in the original trilogy, it's like the Force is mysterious and weird and

0:42:31pretty weak, and by the time Yoda is pulling next wing out of swamp, it's genuinely impressive.

0:42:36Whereas in the prequels, it's like sometimes we're moving to giant rocks, sometimes we're

0:42:40pushing one dude away, sometimes we're moving to salt shaker or an apple.

0:42:45Sometimes you've got lightning, but you can block the lightning, but it's like, the rules

0:42:49Are all worked out whereas in the original trilogy there was a clear arc across three whole movies

0:42:53They made an arc of force powers lightning doesn't appear until the third movie and when it does you're surprised

0:42:57And it's clearly a higher echelon of power and the prequel sits all over the map

0:43:01Yeah

0:43:01I thought that the other lesson that was very very clear in the the original trilogy from all three movies

0:43:09But in a growing especially in the second two where Luke is, you know more and in

0:43:15training to be a Jedi or and then in the third one be you know be

0:43:19growing as a young Jedi was this this point of

0:43:23you

0:43:25If you're gonna be a Jedi you cannot you can't touch the dark side

0:43:29Like once you go it's it's all corrupted like you can't just dip your toes in the dark side

0:43:33You're you know, once you touch it, it's it's it's gonna corrupt you

0:43:37So I have a theory on that. I think I'm gonna talk John offline some of the time

0:43:43Um, I think so. I mean, Vader's supposed to bring balance to the Force and effectively he does that by murdering everybody who's got a Force powers except for Luke.

0:43:52And I think the thing with Luke is that he does touch the dark side.

0:43:58Right.

0:43:59He uses a Force choke on a guard. That's not cool. No other Jedi has done that. But he just walks into Jabba's palace and strangles a guy.

0:44:07uh he's dressed all in black in jedi um and he beats he defeats vader by just getting really

0:44:15really angry yeah and beating the crap out of him but that's not i think i think the balance is where

0:44:21when he tosses his lightsaber aside uh and decides that like no i can like luke uniquely can pull

0:44:28back from the dark side right i'm so i'm so willing to reject the dark side that i'll leave

0:44:32myself defenseless. But the balance thing is he did it but he accepted it right yeah isn't that

0:44:37entirely a creation of the prequels the whole entire business yeah entirely right and that's

0:44:41why i think it's bs because it's like it's like saying well we need to have a balance between

0:44:45like you know uh murder and and safety we need to have a balance between robbery and having your

0:44:51goods be secure we need to have some robberies but then sometimes things are stolen and we need to

0:44:55have some murders mostly not murders like we need to have some uh you know anger and hatred but not

0:45:00No, I disagree. I think, if anything, ham-fistedly, the Jedi Order is depicted as being emotionless

0:45:11and detached, and ultimately that kind of leads to their downfall.

0:45:17But that's not the type of balance you're talking about. You're talking about dark side

0:45:20balance. You're not talking about emotional detachment. That's like Zen versus...

0:45:24But I think dark side is embracing the passion angle of it.

0:45:28They're the only people, they're not passionately loving anybody.

0:45:31Uhh...

0:45:34You know what I mean? Like I know what you're saying, like there's the emotional detachment depicted, again, this is all dependent on their prequels.

0:45:39If you pretend their prequels don't exist, the arc is clear. The dark side is using your powers for evil.

0:45:44And Jedi have tremendous powers, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

0:45:48That's the dark side. And the whole idea is, "Look, we're going to give you these powers, and it's going to be really tempting to use these powers to essentially get your way."

0:45:54And even if the way that your way is the good like well

0:45:57I really wanted to feed the Empire you still should be careful because it's really easy to slip into like, you know

0:46:02using your emotions to you to tell you what you should do with these powers and his whole arc is like

0:46:07I'm gonna try he's a hothead and we're gonna try to stay away from the dark side

0:46:12But you know by the second movie that you know

0:46:14His father had problems dealing with this and he's a hothead too and he really wants to defeat Vader and Vader does terrible things

0:46:19And you as the audience you're like pound him Luke kill him or whatever

0:46:21But in the end as I've talked about in the episode we did about trying to die and the added story of pacifism where is

0:46:26The only movie hero ever to embrace pacifism in the climactic scene

0:46:30Yes, he gets away with it because Vader who's already completely, you know corrupted has no problem killing the Emperor

0:46:36But he's like I would rather die

0:46:38Than fall to the dark side because it's a personal victory for him

0:46:41He essentially says I've he's had his victory his whole victory was like can I master the forest? Can I master myself?

0:46:47Can I not give in to my hatred and everything and in the end he does and that is his victory and even if he?

0:46:51had been killed by the Emperor and by Vader he still would have won and Yoda

0:46:56would have been proud of him but we still get the happy ending because Vader

0:46:59does. That's his arc it's not like well I had to I had to choke that

0:47:03Remorian guard I had to get angry to defeat Vader you didn't have to do all

0:47:07that stuff that was his battle against himself and when when he's doing that

0:47:10when he's wailing on Vader the sad music is playing not the happy music there is

0:47:13no balance in him there's no balance in him using his anger to beat up on Vader

0:47:17That is his slow defeat the balance angle coming from the free pull

0:47:21I think you'd have a better argument for the balance being that the Jedi have to you know

0:47:27Sort of be more in touch with their emotions and not be you know

0:47:31It's kind of more like it arguing for that priests shouldn't be celibate in the church. Yeah

0:47:35I don't think that's coming away from this. Yeah, but I don't think Luke walks away from Jedi squeaky clean right like

0:47:41he's

0:47:43He's gone to the dark side and he's come back. Well. Yeah, he's gone to the brain

0:47:47Let's put it that way because he stopped himself

0:47:50And the thing is like he was not trained for his entire life to be a Jedi like like the other and the part of the

0:47:55Training it's like you know

0:47:57Like to answer these or like priests or whatever where you were denying in our parlance because we just that map humans and everything you're

0:48:03Denying a part of your humanity. You know if you're gonna be celibate because you're a monk

0:48:06It's like well

0:48:07It's important for your spiritual and a life and so on and so forth but the number of humans who deal well with being celibate

0:48:12is very low because it's a strong, you know, urge that we have and so wouldn't it be better if there

0:48:16was a philosophy that embraced everything that it means to be human and just took the good from that

0:48:20and that's what the Jedi are in a bubble and never mind that they're aliens and it doesn't really

0:48:23make any sense in that context anyway. Yeah.

0:48:25And never mind too though, also that like let's say with the Catholic church where priests are

0:48:32celibate, there is no argument within church doctrine that what makes somebody a good priest

0:48:40an inheritable

0:48:42quality like genetic

0:48:44whereas with the Jedi even in not even going to the second trilogy where they

0:48:48Backwards, you know rewrote in a million. Yeah the medical or the I was gonna call it the m-word

0:48:54But even even in the first trilogy they say, you know, the force is strong with the Skywalker's and stuff

0:49:00They even admit then that it's you know

0:49:02Why in the world with the Jedi Order

0:49:07Have everybody be celibate if like the best the best source for new Jedi would be their offspring

0:49:13The celibacy angle makes sense in this in this respect and that because priests don't have super magical powers, right? So

0:49:20these individuals have tremendous power and it seems if I had to describe what the whole purpose of the Jedi would be is like look

0:49:29Some percentage of people in this universe or have have this amazing magical power. They're just like super dangerous

0:49:34so we need to get these kids young and we need to

0:49:37Tamp down some aspects of what you know human nature essentially we need to get their tempers under control

0:49:42We need to make it because it's very easy

0:49:44You know if you give if you give like a five-year-old, you know the ability to use the force and learn to you know

0:49:50By the time they're 13 year olds

0:49:51They will have built up an amazing ability to use this force and they'll just be they'll be very destructive and we like we need to

0:49:57Act as a balance against the the worst parts of human nature because if we don't we're gonna have a bunch of these people running

0:50:03around with, you know, that their power would corrupt them, that they may have been good

0:50:08people, but we need to get them early. And what we need to do is give them more of a

0:50:11monk type mindset because if we don't, we'll have a bunch of hothead teenagers running

0:50:15around with superpowers and that is a really bad formula for peace. And so there is some,

0:50:21I could come up with a justification for why it's really important to find force sensitive

0:50:24kids young, get them into the program and teach them to, maybe they took it too far

0:50:30of like total detachment and celibacy and whatever like that I think is too far but

0:50:34have them in a program that lets them deal with their emotions and understand that they

0:50:39have, you know, with great power comes great responsibility to pull a line from another

0:50:43movie.

0:50:44But they have to deal with that in a certain way.

0:50:45So make some sense that the program for Jedi would be like, dude, chill.

0:50:49Like not otherwise you've got – can you imagine teenagers with the Force?

0:50:54It would be a bad scene.

0:50:56Yeah.

0:50:57Let's take a break and we'll come back to that.

0:51:00I'm going to come back to this question of the Jedi Order.

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0:52:46slash daring fireball Jedi Order see this is one of those things big picture

0:52:56big picture Star Wars to double trilogy the thing that has always stood out to

0:53:02me even I thought even with the original trilogy by the time we got to return of

0:53:07the Jedi that Lucas didn't really have all this shit worked out at the

0:53:10beginning I mean not even by a long shot but then with the the second trilogy it

0:53:15It just it just reeks to high hell of stuff that he made up on the fly.

0:53:21Like almost everything in the prequel trilogy to me shows it and it almost

0:53:27wrecks the stuff in the original trilogy.

0:53:28So I think it was great.

0:53:30I think it was, I think it worked really well when you're doing star wars, because

0:53:36you can just say stuff as throwaway lines and people can fill in the background

0:53:40because it's not particularly pertinent to the, to the tale of destroying the

0:53:44Death Star, right? And Empire kind of builds on that a little bit because there

0:53:52was a flimsy enough sort of shell before that it could build into it a

0:53:56bit. Return of the Jedi just kind of goes a little bit off the rails, like I don't

0:54:00understand what's going on so much. But the prequel trilogy makes no sense at

0:54:05all. I don't understand the Jedi Order. The Sith seem like the most ineffective

0:54:09like really? There's only ever two of them? What? I don't get it. I don't

0:54:13I don't understand the rationale for that at all.

0:54:16Or how that can be a legitimate threat.

0:54:20To a Jedi Order of thousands.

0:54:22Yeah, well, turns out they were, because they took them out, but still.

0:54:26I'm sure it's explained in the Expanded Universe that I haven't read, but it makes sense to

0:54:29me that kind of in an evil organization, where might makes right, if you are mighty enough,

0:54:40there is no reason to have a bunch of henchmen hanging around.

0:54:43And so if the Sith all kill each other until there's only two left, I mean I didn't listen

0:54:47to the talk show with Whiskas yet, but the title "Leads and Relieves" you came to the

0:54:51same conclusion.

0:54:52Like why have an apprentice then?

0:54:53Because the whole idea with the apprentice isn't going to kill you, but it's like a wolf

0:54:55pack where like eventually the lead wolf gets old and some other wolf challenges into a

0:54:59fight and wins and then he's the head wolf, he's the alpha wolf, right?

0:55:02That type of model where the strongest survives and the Sith tradition, you can hang a lot

0:55:08of stuff on tradition because tradition is like "Well it doesn't make any rational sense

0:55:11It's just the way it's always been done.

0:55:12Like, the biggest bad is the big bad,

0:55:15but you always gotta have someone who's an apprentice,

0:55:17because eventually you're gonna get old and die or get defeated,

0:55:20and we need someone to replace you.

0:55:21What we'd rather have happen is you train some guy up,

0:55:23and eventually he gets stronger than you and defeats you,

0:55:25and it's kind of like, that's an honorable way for you to go out,

0:55:29and it keeps the Sith going, and so it's not an entirely crazy system.

0:55:32Okay, fair enough.

0:55:34But, you know, two against the entire Jedi Order is weird.

0:55:39And also the way the Jedi Order sort of sits next to the Republican government.

0:55:46That's exactly what I think is a huge mistake.

0:55:49I felt like...

0:55:52Being in exile makes some sense, where, you know, because of the Empire, Yoda and Obi-Wan

0:55:57are both old and they kind of have to hide.

0:55:58But I thought that the way that the Jedi were set up in the first trilogy was that they...

0:56:06that they were all in hiding but that they weren't centralized. There was an

0:56:12or-- They were like knights or like samurai. Yeah, well samurai is exactly what I'm

0:56:17thinking. Where there's not like one central like samurai headquarters where

0:56:20all the samurai come out of, there's a tradition and there's a code,

0:56:23clearly there's a code, and the training might be, what would you call it,

0:56:29regularized? You know, there's a systematic training to become a new one,

0:56:32But then once you do you're all sort of lone wolves, you know, and you know

0:56:37But you're serving they're serving the

0:56:41Good government or like the Republic essentially like they would you know, they would be the sort of benevolent enforcement arm

0:56:47I did like I think you could make again you can make an interesting sort of geopolitical thriller about look at this weird system of

0:56:52Government, you know where they have a kind of weird Jedi Order with these magic people. It's an uneasy truce with the

0:56:58democratically elected non magic people like

0:57:01that could work out as a different kind of movie and you can see how a

0:57:05Government could get into a really weird shape, especially if there's legitimate magic running around you're like well who should run the show?

0:57:11Should it be those magic people or should we like vote for people and they were voting for a queen and then she's a teenager

0:57:15And like there's all sorts of government ends up in all sorts of weird distorted shape

0:57:20So I'm willing to to believe any weird galactic government shape could work out

0:57:25But if your movie is gonna be about that then that's what your movie is about

0:57:28It's about like well, how do we reconcile this thing?

0:57:30And what if the magic people started to go crazy and what if the political people started to become a correct?

0:57:33What are the checks and balances here and how do empires fall and so on and so forth?

0:57:38Not the story. I was interested in hearing I wanted to hear about Vader and Anakin but that's that's a story

0:57:42You know right from the start in a phantom menace where the first thing we see is Qui-Gon and his you know

0:57:49Padawan obi-wan, you know being sent by the Chancellor to to do something, you know fix a trade dispute or whatever

0:57:57It's just that just didn't seem to me and what the Jedi were about it

0:58:01It didn't seem to me like the Jedi were people who did the bidding of the government like cops, you know

0:58:05Well, I mean like Knights serve the king, right? Yeah, like samurai serve their their feudal masters

0:58:12Well, I loyalty to that man. I think they were Ronan I think is the right word

0:58:16I thought I always imagined the Jedi is as a sort of Ronan, you know that they didn't serve a master

0:58:21They served the force was their master and like a natural sense of just truth and justice

0:58:26Yeah, that would make sense and I mean and then you don't have the Jedi Council at all

0:58:30But then you have basically a government you could still do the government angle if they really into that was like well

0:58:34You've got through public

0:58:35But what's the deal with these Jedi that don't serve any master that are super powerful that are running around we just supposed to trust

0:58:40That they're gonna be like

0:58:42Benevolent or whatever you can the other angle you can go is like Merlin serving King Arthur

0:58:46it's like well, there's not that many of these guys, but they are running around and

0:58:49We would like to have one in-house, but there's other ones out there. How do you deal with wizards?

0:58:54How do you deal with people who can who are not not constrained by any government and

0:59:00have powers that you don't understand it but that are significantly powerful?

0:59:04Yeah, well, and then you could have something like that where maybe one or so a very small

0:59:11handful of Jedi could volunteer to be the handful of ones who serve the Chancellor of

0:59:18the Senate or something like that but not the whole order.

0:59:21I feel like how you know they were they were like a sort of quasi independent police force

0:59:25which I thought was just way off for the tone that was set by the original and they did

0:59:30once they bring in the whole youngling and like the kids and everything I mean that that

0:59:35the presence for that was set in the movie when Luke shows up and a go by it's like he's

0:59:38too old yes too old to begin the training it's like well I remember when I watched the

0:59:41movie like what do you mean too old he's not too old he's like he's just just barely an

0:59:45adult like it's that's isn't that the perfect time to that's like when you would go into

0:59:49the army or be trained or whatever but the that comment from Yoda and the prequels make

0:59:54clear that the whole idea was like it get them when they're young get them like pull

0:59:58them away from their parents either get when they're toddlers bring them in here and that

1:00:01again my explanation for that and my head can is like well you really need to get them

1:00:05when they're young because if you left to their own devices you'll have a serious problem

1:00:09so that the whole order and system is like that seems like it would be the most important

1:00:15function of the Jedi order it would be finding these people and bringing them into art and

1:00:19training them and they could disperse that though. They don't have to remain and become

1:00:22a Jedi Council who sits around in a circle and makes pronouncements. You don't need to

1:00:25do that. But once you've established that very young kids get the Force early and that

1:00:30Yoda said that you need to be trained from a very young age, I think it's reasonable

1:00:35to stick with that and say there's got to be like a school like Xavier's school for

1:00:40gifted. Same thing with the X-Men. If you don't get them into Xavier's school, they

1:00:44might end up falling Magneto and then you've got a problem.

1:00:46Even with just the original trilogy even not even go into the prequel trilogy. I always thought that Yoda's

1:00:51protestations in that scene were

1:00:54He was just playing hard to get to make Luke work

1:00:58I don't know no intention a minute because even in even from what we only know from the original trilogy

1:01:04We know that Ben lived near Luke his entire life and that he'd sort of had a you know

1:01:10and they met each other before he knew him as Ben and

1:01:14You know, they'd met each other before it wasn't the first time that they met when when he rescued him from the sand people

1:01:20So obi-wan Kenobi clearly purposefully for the first 20 years of Luke's life

1:01:25Never even mentioned the force to him not even like it's like telling stories

1:01:29Like Luke didn't even know what a lightsaber was

1:01:32Yeah

1:01:32That they have a timing problem with the prequels to this like you you you to tell me that these Jedi were around but then

1:01:38Within one generation they're so forgotten that that just believe they exist like and Luke doesn't know what a lightsaber was if every kid in

1:01:45Our world where the Jedi are fictional knows what a lightsaber is how in the world doesn't every kid in that galaxy

1:01:51Yeah, like even if Vader had killed them all be just before you were born. You're still gonna know about it like they have

1:01:56Right. We know recorded in the same the way that in the same way that we all know who the samurai were

1:02:02Exactly, right

1:02:04So that I mean that's timing wise that's a problem

1:02:06but when when Yoda said he's too old the reason that always stood out to me because because he seems to be the perfect age and

1:02:11The fact that Yoda would pull out the too old and that you know because it would be ridiculous like well

1:02:17It would say like he's too short like it would be the same. What do you mean? He's too short?

1:02:20He's like average height for a person seems fine. Maybe did I have to be super short, right?

1:02:23So when he said he's too old he wouldn't pull that out and yes

1:02:26He didn't want to train him who's trying to back out or whatever

1:02:28But why pull up something so preposterous and the answer is it's not preposterous that

1:02:32Jedi actually are trained from a super young age and

1:02:35You don't usually get him by the time they're they're practically an adult because by then it's there

1:02:41They're too set in their ways

1:02:42it doesn't make much sense in the context of Luke because again my whole rationale of wanting them young is like

1:02:46They should be feeling the force when they're very young and by the time they get that old

1:02:51They'll just be like completely reckless force users

1:02:53Whereas Luke has no idea that even has the force until I knew hope so that's well

1:02:56There's two things there a I don't believe for a second that Yoda did not intend to train Luke

1:03:01He's just saying that because he wants to see what how Luke reacts. That's my

1:03:05He's testing him. No, he's

1:03:07Arguing with obi-wan because he doesn't what's he gonna do not train Luke and then just let let the galaxy go on being the way

1:03:13It is no, but he didn't like it. He's out of the game like he's on de go boys hanging around

1:03:18He's looking at the animals and the lizards and stuff

1:03:20He's kind of checked out and like he's trying to try and pull him back in like oh, he just can you train one?

1:03:24I think I think it's a at best a protestation. Like I don't want to get out of bed fine

1:03:29I know I gotta get out of bed and train this guy. That's how

1:03:32Well, yeah, it is a legitimate argument and and this is where I back you up is that

1:03:37Luke

1:03:41Doesn't believe he can lift the x-wing and that goes to him being too old because he's got an experience and he's got

1:03:47Like he he understands how heavy one

1:03:55You can't you don't believe in this stuff enough. So it's like in the matrix when the little kid has no problem

1:04:00You know, you know there is no spoon and when you're older you're like what you mean?

1:04:04The spoon is totally there and it's harder because you're more set in your ways

1:04:07That's the that's the other angle for him being too old

1:04:09I think it's it's the least his age is the least of the problems with the chronology there. The boy is reckless

1:04:16Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I know I mean the the the Empire just it should have been around for like hundreds of years

1:04:23Yeah, it should not have been only 15 years old and in fact. They don't say that though well

1:04:27They do say before the Empire because you could have had a benevolent Empire

1:04:30But you don't know how old Obi Wan is he could you don't know how long life spans are in this universe

1:04:38And he's a Jedi and Yoda is super old too and like there are many outs like that the chronology

1:04:43Made sense when you just had the original trilogy

1:04:46But when you when you connect it up in the way they did then you're like then you think

1:04:51Everyone forgot about the Jedi. I know you're on Tatooine. It's far away and stuff. But seriously man, like you get TV

1:04:56And like yeah, I mean what what's his name even calls tells Vader? It's an ancient. You're the last practitioner of that ancient religion

1:05:03Yeah, it's not too ancient. It's like yeah, you know, yeah, it's like 20 years out of day. What are you kidding?

1:05:08I have like computers that still work better that old right? Yeah, I always yeah, I always just had the vague sense

1:05:14Just as a rough canology and whether it actually worked out or not

1:05:18But that let's say like in that scene on the Death Star where the guy is saying, you know

1:05:22You're the last practitioner of that thing that at least the the age of the Empire and the age when the Jedi were

1:05:29either a dominant force missing or

1:05:32reduced to just a handful hidden around the galaxy was around the length of those

1:05:37Men's ages like that guy was born in a world where the Jedi were already decimated. Yes, you know like 35 40 years. Yeah

1:05:45you know because if it wasn't, you know, it's sort of like for what for like people like us like the the the

1:05:51World without TV like we know that there was a world without TV

1:05:55We believe in a world without TV, but we don't we haven't experienced it which makes it because it predates our life

1:06:00You know our us being born it seems ancient or even black and white TV black and white TV seems ancient to me

1:06:06Yeah, it's intellectually fathomable, but kind of viscerally just you can't really picture it, right?

1:06:12Right, whereas if I was maybe 10 years older then black and white TV would just seem like something from my childhood exactly

1:06:18Yeah, the other angle you can go to explain the chronology is the backwater thing where yeah these things were around but information is not

1:06:27Evenly distributed and so if you are really far away from all the action on some remote planet

1:06:33Maybe you're not interested in the history of the Republic or any sort of

1:06:38Galactic government or anything like that and maybe you just you know like the Jedi story that we heard the samurai stories because Japan's not

1:06:44Too far away, and we had a war with them

1:06:46And we know about Japanese stuff in their culture came over here how much culture about maybe it's how do we and they didn't get any

1:06:52Culture about the Jai and it still doesn't as John said that all right well Ben is down the street

1:06:56He's purposely not mentioning it

1:06:57Maybe that's part of his strategy of keeping an eye on Luke put him in a backwater where they've never even heard of the Jedi

1:07:01You can kind of explain it

1:07:03But once you get like Han Solo supposedly been jetting all over the galaxy

1:07:07And he's like I've never seen anything that made me think all-powerful for you never seen anything

1:07:11Like you should have seen like movies of Jedi things with their mind and you'd be like, alright

1:07:16Well, I guess that was a thing. Yeah, and then in the new trilogy, I mean again, he's supposedly super super powerful

1:07:21But we see Anakin as a kid doing some things that would require the force

1:07:25You know that if just because the Jedi are decimated doesn't mean that human beings who have force related powers

1:07:32Yeah, you know that you wouldn't run into him with what we can only assume to be the wide variety of action that Han Solo has seen

1:07:40You know heretofore in his his adventures. Well, I mean Anakin's whole thing was like he's got Jedi reflexes

1:07:46He's the only human who can podrace you could just be a child prodigy and have amazing reflexes at that point

1:07:50You don't necessarily have to you know, he's not he's not moving salt shakers for his mind quite yet

1:07:54I just I bet I just think that if a seven-year-old is showing those type of abilities that Han Solo would have seen

1:08:00You know something a guy who could cheat at dice, you know in a casino because he can yeah

1:08:04I mean, there's no explanation for Han not being so doubt

1:08:07I mean other than the fact that it works in the context of the original trilogy

1:08:10But as soon as you tack on the prequels with that timeline between them then all of a sudden

1:08:13Everything in a new hope is just doesn't read is true. Yeah, you have to be willfully stupid at that point. Yeah

1:08:19I

1:08:22So I wouldn't I want to touch on some of the writing things that to me just clearly showed that it wasn't thought out in advance

1:08:29advance.

1:08:30And I'm going to say this, though, before I do that.

1:08:32There's so many writing complaints that we can do

1:08:34and should do, and I think it's fundamental to the prequels'

1:08:38emptiness.

1:08:40I'll say, though, I'll forgive Lucas

1:08:42for those expositional problems, like Luke not knowing

1:08:46what a lightsaber is or the Force is.

1:08:48I'll forgive those completely because of the need

1:08:50to explain to us, the audience, what those things are.

1:08:54And yes, it was a little clumsy.

1:08:57If you really think about it, it thinks a little clumsy.

1:09:00But in hindsight, though, overall, it was a good scene.

1:09:04I remember very fondly looking back

1:09:06on that scene in Obi-Wan's house where he gets the lightsaber

1:09:09and turns it on and hears about the Jedi and the Force.

1:09:12That scene is perfectly acceptable

1:09:13if the prequels don't exist.

1:09:14It's perfect because he really wouldn't have known.

1:09:16He's a farm boy.

1:09:17How would he know about this?

1:09:18Obviously, the farm boy shows up with the old man.

1:09:19The old man shows him something from a box.

1:09:21It's an ancient thing.

1:09:22It's a device.

1:09:24Yeah, you get someone who's naive,

1:09:26And then you have the wiser person explain to them and you really explain to the audience

1:09:29It works perfectly in the context of that story

1:09:31I think it would be a little bit more elegant if it was a little bit more and I hate to say it but a

1:09:35Little bit more like the scene in a phantom menace where young Anakin

1:09:40Asks if he's a Jedi because he's you know, he sees his laser sword

1:09:45He doesn't even know the name lightsaber, but it's like even if Luke had just said, you know

1:09:50It just expressed some sort of I've heard of lightsabers, but never believed I'd see well

1:09:55You want it to be more mysterious than that.

1:09:56Like, you don't want Neo to know about the Matrix before I get--

1:10:00like, you want him to be a complete neophyte,

1:10:03because he's got a-- his arc is he's

1:10:04a farm boy who dreams something more,

1:10:06and then this wider world opens up to him.

1:10:08So I'm perfectly happy with him not knowing at all.

1:10:10And the explanation, as delivered by Alec Guinness,

1:10:12was so laid back and not going into a lot of detail.

1:10:15Like, sure as hell not mentioning midichlorians.

1:10:17It's like two or three sentences of vague--

1:10:19it's the type of explanation you would get if this guy's like,

1:10:22I've decided that I'm going to bring you on board this thing,

1:10:24But I can't explain it all to you now

1:10:26Let me just give you the broad strokes and let's move on to the next scene because we gotta go to Mos Eisley

1:10:30Right and it's a well, you know Luke is our you know, he's there for us

1:10:35We see this we see that whole thing through Luke's eyes and up until that point in the movie

1:10:39You know, it's actually it's not like this hybrid fantasy science fiction combo. It's more just science fiction

1:10:47It's just spaceships and laser guns and then all of a sudden in that scene. We're we're explained that it's also a little magic

1:10:54And that movie, A New Hope is not force heavy.

1:10:56Like, it's like, alright, lightsabers, force, Jedi, I guess Vader's got one, it's an excuse to have a sword fight.

1:11:02But like, really, Luke is like...

1:11:04He's not so sure.

1:11:06I think it's only the mind trick that is magic.

1:11:09They don't even do the force move stuff.

1:11:11Yeah, but what I'm saying is like, what Luke dreams about is being a pilot.

1:11:15Like, he wants to fly a spaceship and he's interested in the rebellion.

1:11:18You know about the rebellion? He's totally interested in the rebellion.

1:11:20So he's a liberal, basically. Like, he's against the Empire.

1:11:23He's for he's for the rebellion

1:11:24He just wants it big since friend has gone off into war to join the rebellion and he's totally into flying things and be like

1:11:31He's he's a young

1:11:33Punk who you know wants to get off this stinking rock and do great things and none of that has anything to do with the force

1:11:39Or swords or sword fighting or moving things with your mind or anything like that's totally the second movie gets him into that and then

1:11:44The first movie he's just like, you know

1:11:46It's like a coming-of-age story and going off to the war and even though he does a little bit of force stuff

1:11:51It's like Obi-Wan says taking your first step into a larger world he has but that larger world does not yet interest him

1:11:57He doesn't realize the importance of it until more or less

1:11:59He sees obi-wan disappear in a puff of smoke and then starts talking to him through his you know

1:12:04He can hear him in his mind. He's like, maybe there's something to this force thing and and that aspect of it

1:12:09I do think was loosely plotted out by Lucas where here in this first movie

1:12:13the force is really just for Vader and obi-wan and Luke gets a

1:12:18Taste of it he gets a few drops on his tongue, you know

1:12:21And it helps him is it helps him have final victory in the movie like in the end

1:12:26His piling skills are not enough and he has to you know, use the force

1:12:29That's the whole big takeaway from and that's the climax. No, but what has he done?

1:12:32He's barely scratched the surface of like he didn't find anyone with lightsaber the whole movie, right?

1:12:37He got shot in the butt by the little floaty ball

1:12:39But in the end it was all I mean, this is why the movie resonated so much

1:12:43It was you know, the the force stuff is like

1:12:45It's a little bit of Luddite ISM of turn off your targeting computer

1:12:48But like you know that that things that are inside you your emotions and feelings and thoughts

1:12:53Are that feel so powerful inside you can actually have an external manifestation

1:12:57manifestation of that power and it will lead you to victory and it'll be a good victory and the star will blow up and no

1:13:02One else could have made that shot and so on and so forth. All right, I

1:13:05Think and I know this is might be controversial. I think and I think John you and I have even talked about this

1:13:11I think that when Lucas wrote

1:13:14Star Wars or what I call Star Wars the new hope episode 4

1:13:18And I think he thought if this is a hit and I get to make the rest of the trilogy

1:13:22You know, that was the whole thing

1:13:23I say I've got to make this first one and if it's successful, holy shit

1:13:26Then I can you know worry I can write and finish, you know, that's planned trilogy

1:13:30I think he wrote it with the idea that Luke was gonna be the guy who gets the girl. I

1:13:35Think so, yeah, it's reasonable and the whole first movie completely supports that right

1:13:42I don't think there was any plan at all for Leia to be his sister. No, he did plan on Vader being his father

1:13:47I mean and there's the whole thing where Vader's I think the German word for father

1:13:51I

1:13:53Think that might have been there

1:13:54Although I'm still not even convinced of that because when obi-wan tells him that Vader he was killed by killed by Vader

1:14:02It it plays well in hindsight

1:14:06But I can't help but think that in from what we know of Lucas overall like he's if that's what he thought overall

1:14:11He would have overplayed it and it would have been like he killed your father. So if you watch a scene

1:14:16I just well actually as it happens. I just watched that scene just before coming on this podcast and

1:14:21There's two ways you can take it one way if you look at it with hindsight, it is acted perfectly to be like

1:14:27He's thinking of like what he's gonna say

1:14:32You know, how is he gonna say if he knows he's gonna lie, right in hindsight?

1:14:36It can look like that the other way that the same

1:14:38Performance from Alec Guinness can look is you don't want to tell kid what happened to his father especially his father died like

1:14:44Don't ask me about your father. I gotta tell you that you know he was killed by Darth Vader, and it's unpleasant and

1:14:50The same performance read like either one of those things reads on it perfectly obviously the one with hindsight

1:14:57You're like oh, it's totally that performance, but it could also just as easily be a little kid

1:15:01Just asked me about his father, and I know this father was killed. He didn't he didn't die peacefully in his sleep

1:15:07He was killed by Darth Vader. Darth Vader's a bad guy. He's leading those people who are you know like it reads that way as well

1:15:13I don't know if Lucas told Alec Guinness by the way when Luke asks about what happened to his father

1:15:18You're going to be essentially lying even if I can't tell you what did happen to his father what you're gonna

1:15:22Tell him isn't the truth so play

1:15:24I get the feeling I get the feeling that Lucas made up Vader being his father in the second one

1:15:29And I get the feeling that

1:15:31He just went back in so many things in Jedi. I feel that he just went back to the well

1:15:36He made another Death Star.

1:15:38Like that, even as a kid, I found that kind of boring.

1:15:41But it makes a nice circle.

1:15:43Like, again, I was thinking of a new hope when 3PO is going to the oil bath.

1:15:48And I forget, Luke is talking to him or whatever.

1:15:51And he's like, you know, I'm just a protocol droid and not very good at telling stories.

1:15:55Like, throw away lines like that that get paid off two movies later.

1:15:58I'll give you that one.

1:15:59I agree.

1:15:59I agree.

1:15:59But I do think that he shoehorned Leia into being part of the Skywalker family in Jedi

1:16:08because I think he felt that he needed the reveal that was akin to the Wannian Empire.

1:16:12- But yeah, but he did, in Empire, he said, "No, there is another." So he's got to pay off

1:16:17"there is another." I'm glad he didn't leave that dangling. The fact that the another is Leia...

1:16:21- That's true.

1:16:21- Nah, it's mostly immaterial, unless they build on that in episode seven or something.

1:16:25It's mostly immaterial. It's like basically, he says there's another, which means that like,

1:16:29Basically that's there to let you know that Luke could conceivably die an empire and he came pretty darn close to dying like

1:16:34To make you think guess what guys I'm willing to kill off a main character because there is another right and just so happens

1:16:40It turns out that he lives and in a Jedi way find out who the other is

1:16:43But it's mostly inconsequential because hey Luke is alive Luke again if Luke had died a Jedi then the other would be

1:16:48What we would be hanging our hat on for the future

1:16:50Well, I mean the concept the consequence is that it makes Luke go

1:16:57Ballistic and ultimately defeated Vader through anger, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean it was it was worked into the movie

1:17:02It's just like talk about making it up as you go along. I'm willing to believe that like having

1:17:08Vader turn out to be his father fine that works but how many surprise familiar relationships are you allowed in a trilogy?

1:17:14Right, yeah by saying oh and guess what another main characters also related to you really is everybody related to me

1:17:20Yeah, it could have been it didn't have to be a sister

1:17:24It could have just been that Leia was the the other one. Yeah

1:17:27Late late and untapped force right and what's next when I say Darth Vader made c3p out come on. It's ridiculous

1:17:33And actually he does exactly that yet don't listen. I talk about that

1:17:37But he does he does like do the the Vulcan mind chat with with Leia as her escaping best man

1:17:44yeah, no, I think this the who the other is and

1:17:47The fact that they can have their relate that communication with each other is either

1:17:52They related or the both Jedi's are both and either one would be semi-plausible because there's plenty of movies

1:17:57You're like, oh, I just feel that my non magical movies like I have some somehow a feeling that my my brother is in a terrible

1:18:04Car, you know people totally buy into that stuff especially

1:18:06In this movie we have established

1:18:09Telepathic links between people even when one of them is dead like the first movie

1:18:13Ben is in his ear saying, you know use the force of the Kubernetes

1:18:17So as soon as he's communicated telepathy with Leia like I guess she's the other

1:18:21See and I think and if you look remember the original posters and it's like the even the Star Wars logo is a little different

1:18:28It may be even a lot different. It's still got like the connected letters, but it's like in a different almost like a pyramid shape

1:18:34And it's like there's it's a lot more stylized

1:18:39It doesn't I don't know that any of the characters quite look like likenesses of the actual actors

1:18:43But Luke is holding his lightsaber above his head his chest. He's got his big chest coming out. Yeah

1:18:50Lay is wrapped around his leg it it to me that that poster gets authorized

1:18:57Because it's a tale of this

1:18:59Boy from a farm which is what it ended up being who goes on this grand adventure and gets the girl

1:19:06Well, he rescues the princess. He rescues her I swing across the canyon on a rope together

1:19:11Like she gives him a kiss for that for luck and then there's the famous kiss in on Hoth in

1:19:17By that time you're doing actual romance and the first movie was so gentle

1:19:21It's like yeah, even Disney even Disney movie has like Belle kiss the beasts and the lips at the end

1:19:26There was nothing like it's Star Wars. There's no kissing on the lips

1:19:28It's just like all kind of it's understood that Luke has saved the princess

1:19:33Nothing is you know, nothing is as sexual though as that poster, right?

1:19:38And you know because that was the way they did movie posters

1:19:41like you had to promise even if there's no actual sex in the movie you have to promise there's gonna be a guy there's gonna

1:19:46to be a girl and the girl is going to be a submissive princess who wraps herself

1:19:49around the hero's leg and the hero's chest is gonna be gigantic I mean Mark

1:19:52Hamill's chest is not gigantic but on those posters it's busting out of his

1:19:55white tunic you know it's the way they advertise things. I'm looking at it now and and if

1:20:02I'm correct and Han Han and Chewie I don't think are even in it it's you know

1:20:07there's a big Vader behind him but it's Han it's it's Luke and Leia and the

1:20:14droids yeah and it's a good call what they like if you're gonna if you're

1:20:17gonna call an audible it's a good call it's the reason Empire is so great it's

1:20:21because after the first movie you've got you know the childhood fairy tale we're

1:20:24gonna save the princess Luke gets to swing across the canyon with her they

1:20:28all get medals at the end Leia gives them a special smile during the medal

1:20:31ceremony it's appropriate for like prepubescent boys who understand the

1:20:35concept of getting the girl or whatever but once you're about to make the second

1:20:39movie, you say, you know what? You know, Leia, actually, the

1:20:44bickering Leia did with Han is a better indication of a budding

1:20:47romantic relationship than anything that happened between

1:20:49Leia and Luke. And that is a much more interesting

1:20:51relationship. So why don't we go in that direction for Empire and

1:20:54they did and it was smart. And again, it doesn't have to be

1:20:56Luke's sister to do that. Because that that is the actual

1:20:59relationship with chemistry. Right? chemistry between Luke

1:21:02and Leia for the second movie to build.

1:21:04You could, well, I don't know about at the time when I first

1:21:07Probably not because I was very young, but you can tell when she kisses Luke that it's basically just to get at Han, right?

1:21:15Like it's got very little to do with kissing Luke.

1:21:19And Luke is not ready to handle it. Luke is like putting his hands behind his head going, "Oh, a girl kissed me!"

1:21:25It's like that's, you know, it's, it's... And Han is, you know...

1:21:29Yeah, but he plays it cool. He's like, "Yeah, take care, kid."

1:21:31kid. Luke is not, Luke is, as far as we know, Luke hasn't even had a girlfriend here, whereas Han

1:21:37is, you know, is worldly wise and, yeah, like he's wise enough not to... There is chemistry between the...

1:21:43He doesn't, he's not even upset with Luke or anything, he's just like, okay, well, she wants,

1:21:48basically he's resigned that she won that argument. Right, but it's still the two of them.

1:21:53He still knows it's the two of them and Luke is just a bystander. That's exactly it, that's,

1:21:57That's the way he plays as a guy.

1:21:59- And Luke does not spend any part of Empire

1:22:01pining over Leia or thinking about Leia

1:22:03in as anyway, except for a friend.

1:22:05Like when he's having these trances on Dagobah,

1:22:06he's like, "Oh, Leia, like in terms of his friends

1:22:09that he's gotta save, Han, Leia,

1:22:11he's got to go save his friends."

1:22:12He is not, he's not hung up on Leia at all.

1:22:15- Right.

1:22:15- Speaking about sort of the beginning part of Empire,

1:22:20what I loved, 'cause I, you know,

1:22:22after we decided we couldn't do this,

1:22:24of course I watched them all over again,

1:22:26The story of Han in the first one ends with him basically turning around and saving the day, right?

1:22:34Or at least helping Luke save the day. And then we come immediately into Empire Strikes Back

1:22:40and we keep building on that. As soon as he finds out that Luke is out in the cold,

1:22:46he's willing to die to go get him. The character progression starts exactly where it ended.

1:22:52Han had already decided that like no he's all in he's committed to saving like these people are his friends and he's gonna go help them

1:22:58And we don't we don't we don't repeat the arc. You know we don't need to repeat the arc

1:23:03It's like immediately. He's jumping on his taunt on and

1:23:06Seeing people in hell there's a continuation of the arc of like he's being chased because he's got a price on his head like we know

1:23:11There's there's that yeah, but he but he but we don't see him being that the scandal to his friends anymore like he's completely dedicated

1:23:17Oh, yeah, no, he goes out he goes out he goes out for luke and when uh the imperials attack the base

1:23:23He immediately goes to get leya and try to try to get it out

1:23:26Like that's the first thing he does like there's and we've had time removed because the the end of a new hope and the beginning

1:23:32Empire there's a substantial amount of time during which there's more skirmish like that. They've been to war together

1:23:37So now they're essentially not just friends, but war buddies. Yeah, there's hijinks in there. There's a word mandel

1:23:43Well, exactly, but that to me is like the brilliant that's like Star Wars at its best is the Ord Van Delft story where it's just

1:23:49They just mention it. It's a cool sounding name

1:23:51You know something happened, you know, there's just this in in the in the quickest way possible simply through dialogue

1:24:00They just imply and it feels genuine that they've been through some shit in between the two movies and we haven't seen it

1:24:06And it reminds you that bounty hunters exist in the universe which comes in later right and thereafter

1:24:13Yeah, all right. I think I can't I could do a whole show just on Empire because I think Empire

1:24:18Yeah, I think Empire is what what holds the whole thing together

1:24:22I think Star Wars was clearly, you know, the original one was a huge sensation. It was the biggest pop cultural

1:24:28You know

1:24:30Movie of the whole series nothing is ever going to top that

1:24:32But the one that makes it something that we're gonna keep hoping for sequels that are good is Empire

1:24:38I mean how when when else has there been a sequel that is?

1:24:42You know as good or better than

1:24:45The mine aliens aliens, here's the thing about maybe aliens, but here's the thing about Star Wars versus Empire

1:24:53Empire took it to another level like it's not just because the Godfather one and Godfather two are at the same level

1:25:00They're both the same kind of movie their movies for adults. They're serious

1:25:03They are there

1:25:04They're aiming for the same type of things and the fact that Godfather 2 was just as good and some people might say better

1:25:09But they're still the same.

1:25:10"Star Wars," "New Hope" is like kind of more of a kids movie.

1:25:15Again, the romance is not real romance.

1:25:17It's very simplified.

1:25:18It's very sort of fairy tale.

1:25:22It aged right along with the kids.

1:25:24And "Empire" is like, actually, we're

1:25:25going to take this even more seriously.

1:25:27And not in a everything is gritty,

1:25:29Tim Burton's Batman or Dark Knight or Batman begins.

1:25:32Like, everybody's got to be dark and gritty or whatever.

1:25:34Just say, we're going to have real emotional stakes.

1:25:36We're going to have relationships

1:25:38that read as true to adults, right? So it will, and kids will pick up on the fact that the

1:25:43relationship between Han and Leia is a more legitimate adult relationship than anything that

1:25:49took place in A New Hope. And that's why it stands out. It's like, it's taking it to the next level.

1:25:54Yeah, I loved your observation, probably on the incomparable, in fact, I'm sure it was, that

1:26:04Han and Leia kiss on the Falcon and then they get interrupted but when they end up in in cloud city

1:26:09And she's think they're there. They're in that sweet that they're being hooked up on

1:26:14It's kind of I never thought of it before but you had the observation that it's clearly that slept together by that point

1:26:21This is just their demeanor together like there's so much more like

1:26:25Relaxed around each other and a release of tension. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they're just like pretty chill with each other and yeah

1:26:31Yeah, the way they relate to each other is that finally so much more?

1:26:34You know is will will they won't they the answer was that they will and they did and now they can relate to each other

1:26:40Directly without because they're so guarded with each other before kind of like you know that they're trying to guard themselves

1:26:45But not reveal too much of themselves

1:26:47But show that they want to get together and like and eventually that settles down and they can finally

1:26:52Relate to each other directly without sort of the artifice of like and it happens it happens off camera and all you see is like that

1:27:00Just the familiarity and like that. They're still teasing each other, but it's so much

1:27:05There's less tension going on, you know up until then nothing that they've said to each other is actually what either one is actually feeling

1:27:12Exactly, right. Yeah, except maybe

1:27:15The oh you you do have your moments not many but you do have them yeah

1:27:26about the fact they slept together where they believe both me and Dan Morin as

1:27:29Often happens had the same thought at the same time in that podcast

1:27:32Yeah, but Hans whole take up until then is I could take you would leave you and

1:27:38Which isn't true. He's obsessed and her angle is I'm not interested in you at all, which is not true

1:27:43She's interested even though she knows she shouldn't be right. Like if there's a line that that is honest. It's her. I like nice men

1:27:51Yeah, I'm nice man

1:27:55But that's so basic

1:27:57That brings us to to me. What was the great thing about Empire was that it seemed as though George Lucas

1:28:03recognized his weaknesses and recognized everything that would could have been improved in the first one and

1:28:11then did they either took action to rectify it or or

1:28:15Delegated so for example stilted character dialogue. Guess what George Lucas very creative at making stories create a brilliant

1:28:24Seriously brilliant world builder probably I would argue the most brilliant

1:28:28Cinematic world builder we've ever seen like you could argue that the Lord of the Rings is a more fully realized world

1:28:36Yeah, but that's big something but that's a novel. It's not cinema. You know as a purely cinematic world

1:28:41I would say he's unparalleled. Guess what? He can't write dialogue. What was the Harrison Ford line George?

1:28:47She can't say we can't you can write this but you can't say it. Yeah, you can write this but you can't say it

1:28:52So he brings in two great screenwriters Larry Kasdan who I guess yeah did Raiders came first

1:28:59did great work on Raiders

1:29:02which is a fantastic story and has

1:29:04fantastic dialogue and a fantastic relationship between Harrison Ford and

1:29:09Marion yeah, well Larry Kasdan second and ladies

1:29:13Right. Yeah. Well and with the talk about legend the Lee Brackett, right?

1:29:18who wrote stuff for

1:29:21for Humphrey Bogart and you know from that whole era from the 40s those 40s film noir

1:29:31which is great and that's what you know now that I'm older I mean obviously in 1981 when

1:29:36it came out I had not seen the Maltese Falcon you know I thought black and white movies

1:29:41were for you know old people but now that I have like a richer film vocabulary and I've

1:29:46seen movies like that. That's what The Empire Strikes Back crackles with.

1:29:51They threw away most of that script though like and the spirit of it

1:29:54still embodies it like but in the big Empire, Making of Empire book by what

1:29:59Risner or something like that the big giant coffee table book about Making of

1:30:02Empire which is great I recommend everybody reading that made me feel like

1:30:06that Lucas picked these people who are amazingly talented who'd work with

1:30:10before or new or you know like he picked he picked people who whose work he

1:30:14admired. And then when they said about doing things, either he was disengaged from it, or if

1:30:18he was engaged, the feeling that I got from him is like, guys, it doesn't have to be that good. Like,

1:30:23that he would be fine with it if it was like, that they were, they wanted to make it the best

1:30:27it could possibly be. And if it, up to him, he'd be like, you guys don't need to argue, just go home.

1:30:31Like, what you've got is fine. Like, for today, yeah, that's fine. Whereas the people actually

1:30:34involved in making the movie were just like, we're going to make this as good as we can possibly make

1:30:39it. And they were arguing with each other about every little thing, right down to the actors of

1:30:42Harrison Ford arguing about Hans' motivations and what he would say in the scene of like

1:30:46very collaborative, very contentious, aggressive filmmaking on the part of actually making the

1:30:51movie and that Lucas would be like, "It's just a kids movie guys, just chill." Like you don't,

1:30:56it's not that like, if Lucas was more involved, he would not have been pressing people to,

1:31:01and we see what happens when he did have the say over everything that gets involved,

1:31:04it's like what he cared about deeply was like the design of the ships and the computer graphics and

1:31:11stuff like that and what he cared less about was like dialogue, story, acting performances,

1:31:16you know all that type of stuff. So anyway, I'll take a time out for a sponsor break but anybody

1:31:23who's looking for some good older movies to watch could do worse than some of the ones that

1:31:28Leigh Brackett worked on the screenplay for. Going backwards in time and just looking at her IMDb

1:31:34credits, some of the ones that I've seen that I know or stand out. The Long Goodbye from 1973,

1:31:40that was a

1:31:42Robert Altman movie but to make a Philip Marlowe detective story set in the 70s starring

1:31:49What's-his-name the guy from Oh Elliot Gould from

1:31:54Young kids will know him from oceans 11

1:31:57Like a 70s take on a 40s film noir, which was awesome

1:32:06Probably my one of my favorite Westerns ever made Howard Hawks Rio Bravo you guys ever see Rio Bravo. Yeah

1:32:11Oh my god. It's one of the best movies ever seen Dean Allen are nothing Alan Dean Martin plays alcoholic

1:32:19Sheriff you don't say

1:32:22But it's actually to me like a pretty interesting take on

1:32:26alcoholism in a kid's

1:32:29action movie, you know with John Wayne as his boss great great great movie and

1:32:34the big sleep from 1946 with

1:32:37Humphrey Bogart and

1:32:40Lauren Bacall

1:32:43Lauren come on

1:32:45That's probably the wife. You're only gonna watch one of the ones I just listed watch the big sleep

1:32:48And I know you're right they didn't use a lot large parts of her script, but it definitely infused the

1:32:55dialogue of Empire Strikes Back

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1:35:23Yeah, and I know our friend Marco uses Fracture for his... he makes Fractures out of his app

1:35:32icons. It hangs them on his wall, which I think is a nice idea.

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1:35:39the old one.

1:35:40Yeah, but it's a cool idea. I like it.

1:35:41Yeah, it is cool. I've heard other people say that, that they do that. Empire. We could

1:35:48go on and on about Empire but it's there's almost no wasted exposition

1:35:52you're just like you said you're thrust back in this world it feels like yes

1:35:56some stuff has gone on but the characters are on this exact same arc

1:35:59that they were before I always use this word I and to me it epitomizes the sense

1:36:05of camaraderie between the heroes of the original trilogy it's this palpable

1:36:11sense of camaraderie which I think is so hard to capture in movies I feel like TV

1:36:17Shows do a better job of it because can do a better job of it because they have so much more time

1:36:22Right if you watch Mad Men for six seasons

1:36:25There's a camaraderie between Roger and Don because they've been through so much together because we've seen them through

1:36:32You know, I don't know a hundred and forty hours of television

1:36:36Whereas it for Star Wars to have gotten to this palpable sense of camaraderie between these characters that you truly believe

1:36:44after just you know

1:36:47two hours and 15 minutes of

1:36:49Film so far when Han says, you know, they say you're never gonna survive the night and he goes well

1:36:55Then I'll see you in hell and he goes out. You just believe it. I believed it as a kid

1:36:59I'd still it chokes me up

1:37:00I get a lump in my throat when not when he does that when I watch that because I feel to me like it's the

1:37:05it's not just

1:37:07Serving the story. It's that's what this guy would do. Yeah, of course. He's going of course

1:37:11He's like what else is he gonna do?

1:37:13And the way you build that camaraderie is you have to have the people, the ensemble cast, you have to have them

1:37:19not sort of

1:37:22come together and just be friends from the beginning and go through. You need to have them be like at odds

1:37:27over certain things and have them butt heads about those things and come, not so much resolve those things,

1:37:33but come to an understanding about those things. Whatever things they disagree on.

1:37:36I'm totally into the force and think it's great. You think it's hokey. I'm with the rebellion

1:37:42you're not so sure about it, I'm a hothead, I'm more calm.

1:37:47Whatever personality traits that don't mesh,

1:37:51you have to show them clashing,

1:37:53and then you have to show that they,

1:37:54through the other things that become more important,

1:37:57they come to an understanding about those differences

1:37:59and become friends.

1:38:00And then you also need to have them go through things,

1:38:02like John said about madmen,

1:38:03you have to have them go through the moment

1:38:05where they succeed in business, fail in business,

1:38:07where one person is vulnerable because he's drunk

1:38:09and says something, the other person to have

1:38:11one or two true moments between people and have like,

1:38:14you could even have on a TV series,

1:38:16you could have a misunderstanding or betrayal

1:38:18that eventually, you know, they figure out how to work out.

1:38:21Like you have so much more time to have those things,

1:38:24but in Star Wars with the ensemble cast,

1:38:25in the first movie, you throw these guys together.

1:38:28They don't know what to make of each other.

1:38:29They probably never seen anybody like each other.

1:38:31And there's other characters in the mix and that, you know,

1:38:33that Obi-Wan is there and Han is just, you know,

1:38:36gonna do a job, but you know,

1:38:38it kind of feels for these people.

1:38:40The old guy's weird and he dies and they're both there when the old guy dies

1:38:43Like you have to have that right?

1:38:45I think the problem with a lot of ensemble movies the more modern ones is you throw together this group of attractive personable

1:38:50Well-adjusted smart witty people and they just kind of walk parallel to each other side by side through the plot and that does not build camaraderie

1:38:58Yeah, like hon

1:39:00It's very clear out because I just watched a new hope recently and it's very clear, huh?

1:39:04Hon when he first meets them, he just doesn't even believe him

1:39:08He doesn't believe he doesn't know what the hell kind of trouble they're in

1:39:10But he it's just his his cynical self thinks whatever problem whatever it is

1:39:14They want me to take them to Alderaan for it's no big deal. They're telling me it's the Empire. I trust me

1:39:19I've seen trouble with the Empire. This is bullshit. Yeah, he doesn't believe I'm gonna until the two starters for show up and he's like

1:39:24Oh, yeah, okay

1:39:25actually did you know in the cantina all he's thinking about is ripping them off right and

1:39:30vastly overcharging him

1:39:36episode about Empire. So Han is doing the thing where he's talking to them and you know negotiating the price and Luke is being not a

1:39:42good negotiator and Obi-Wan's trying to you know, tell him to calm down and work it out, right?

1:39:46They both leave the table. What you're left with at that point, I think at that point you had seen Han

1:39:50I forgot if you've seen him with Greedo or not yet

1:39:52But anyway, you saw Han dealing with these guys as like I've got a fast ship here or whatever as soon as they leave the table

1:39:57He talks to Chewie person to person with his true self

1:40:01These guys must really be desperate and at that point when you see him talking to Chewie with his true self

1:40:05you realize this guy's not such a hard ass, right? He clearly cares for Chewie, they have

1:40:11a real relationship with each other. He doesn't talk to Chewie like hired help, he doesn't

1:40:16have this bluster and everything with Chewie, so you know that there's a heart of gold inside

1:40:20this scoundrel. So that's set up from the very beginning, and that's how it works out.

1:40:25It's not like this guy is a hard ass and then suddenly turns over a new leaf. The whole

1:40:30movie he has this conflict about, "I have to show that I'm tough on the outside, but

1:40:34the inside I'm a sensitive soul.

1:40:37There's a great--go ahead, John.

1:40:39Well just also the sense that he's in some financial trouble to some bad, you know, some

1:40:44bad people.

1:40:45And he's scared about it.

1:40:46Yeah, Guito comes almost immediately after this, after the stormtroopers show up and

1:40:51then the next time we visit Han, Guito's there.

1:40:56There's a great scene like that.

1:40:57And then he does the indie thing in that scene where he's like, "Don't have it with me."

1:41:00That's kind of the sarcasm.

1:41:01Indiana Jones and Han Solo blended a lot in my mind as a kid because there's a lot of crossover in terms of Harrison Ford playing

1:41:07the kind of

1:41:08You know gonna talk his way out of a jam type of thing

1:41:12Like he'll fight his way out of a jam and he'll talk his way out of jam and he's able to do both and he'll switch

1:41:15Between them based on the needs of the situation

1:41:18So eventually he doesn't have to shoot Greedo, but he tries to talk his way out of it first

1:41:20And if that doesn't work, he's setting up his shooting the way

1:41:23Yeah, and I think what I'm getting my own self off point

1:41:26But I think that's why it's okay that that Han shoots first

1:41:29is that he really did try to get out of that without any trouble and only when it became ultimately

1:41:34Really clear that Greta was just gonna shoot him

1:41:37and as

1:41:38storm say that sets up his moral journey in like that he is slightly more amoral the beginning of the movie because he's like I just

1:41:44Care about he's trying to he's trying to put up a front that says I'm tough. I only care about myself

1:41:49It's not true, but that's the front he's trying to put up. See you later

1:41:52I don't care about your rebellion

1:41:54He can't actually stick to that but he's totally willing to shoot first because that's what a tough guy

1:41:58He's he's play acting the tough guy that he wishes. Yeah, he's cut his paints himself into a corner by being a tough guy

1:42:03They didn't have to shoot the guy and so they should screed Oh like greed Oh a scum and like indie

1:42:07Yeah, you know Indy shoots the guy with the sword in the street

1:42:10Yeah, you don't feel a little bit of a hard ass because he's survived this long doing this job exactly

1:42:15I think there's one

1:42:16Just two seconds. There's one scene in Empire that I think really speaks to this

1:42:20Aspect of Han which is he's already saved Luke and Luke's being

1:42:25rehabilitated in that and it backed a tank and Luke is about to go out in this snow speeder to

1:42:29You know try to slow down the the Imperial assault

1:42:33Meanwhile Han is on top of the Falcon trying to patch it back up and

1:42:38Luke says goodbye to Chewie and Chewie gives him a big hug

1:42:43And then there's just no words spoken between between Han and Luke. They just kind of smile at each other and nod and it's

1:42:51still it's it's

1:42:54Luke kind of accepting Han's tough guy, outer shell.

1:43:01Like, they can't actually say anything, but there's just such a good connection between them then that I love it.

1:43:07I love that there was an intentional choice not to provide any dialogue there,

1:43:12because I think anything you could have said would have just ruined it.

1:43:14Well, he stops him when he's walking away.

1:43:16Like, Luke was walking away.

1:43:18It's like, well, I've got my hug from Chewie, I'm going to walk away.

1:43:20And then Han basically stops him by yelling, hey.

1:43:23But then after after he's gotten his attention, that doesn't need to be a big, you know, exactly.

1:43:27It's kind of that's a macho.

1:43:29They just just not. But it's not even that macho.

1:43:31It's more like I think there is a line there that could be.

1:43:35But it's like the line is not the line is not what they would say.

1:43:37The line is not what George Lucas would write for them, which is take care out there because you are a good friend and I like you.

1:43:42Yes. Yeah. It's something like take these or something.

1:43:45It's maybe good luck.

1:43:46But it's so it's so minimal.

1:43:48But the way that they're communicating, it's not a tough guy thing.

1:43:51It's more of like a good friend thing.

1:43:54Do you know what I mean?

1:43:55It's not like, yeah, like fist bump.

1:43:57It's not that it's,

1:43:58Well, no, it's the, it's the slight reveal of like bringing down that wall ever so slightly.

1:44:04Exactly.

1:44:04So they are communicating without that wall being in the way.

1:44:08But if people looking on the outside, they don't see it's still a little bit of a macho thing because you can't show your emotions.

1:44:12Yes, I take that.

1:44:14But it's yes.

1:44:15And it's an interesting contrast with Chewie, who is, I think, the actual toughest of the heroes.

1:44:21and, you know, the one with the boars temper, and he's the one who just lets the hug fly.

1:44:26He's in touch with his emotions when the doors close.

1:44:30He wails because his friend is out there. He is much more able,

1:44:34he's much more in touch with his emotions, does not feel the need to tamp them down like Macho Man.

1:44:38Right, he always lets his emotions fly.

1:44:40As Lato finds out.

1:44:41I

1:44:43Was just gonna say to me

1:44:48Circling all the way back to earlier in the show when I said that I found indie for more disappointing than Phantom Menace

1:44:54I agree with your assessment that the Phantom Menace had more

1:44:58The hope that it would be good was bigger than the hope that indie would be good

1:45:03My thought my line of thinking on that was simply though that Spielberg is still a very talented filmmaker

1:45:09And I thought that meant you know, there was a good chance

1:45:13It could still be a good movie. Whereas by the time Phantom Menace came out because of the special editions. I was already so

1:45:19deeply pessimistic because

1:45:21Almost everything I would say like nine out of every ten changes in the special editions was for the worse

1:45:27Yeah

1:45:27Yeah, and I just made me think this man George Lucas has lost his fucking mind and now he's gonna make a whole movie and I

1:45:35To me everything that I thought would be go wrong because of the special edition to the original trilogy was exactly what went wrong with

1:45:42the whole

1:45:43Original trilogy so I will say this about Empire Strikes Back

1:45:46It is the only one that survived being special edition and I think came up better for it in many ways

1:45:52Yeah, I think the changes they made to Empire and special edition were pointless

1:45:56They did not need to be made but because Empire was so perfect

1:46:00So what can you do to it? Like, he had to fight to even find things to put in.

1:46:05Like, "Well, when Vader leaves Cloud City, how does he get back to his starter store? We should see that."

1:46:09So wait, that's stupid, but the running around--

1:46:11That's the level of crap you see.

1:46:12That is stupid, but the running around in the hallways of Cloud City makes it look nicer, because you can see outside.

1:46:17I kind of like it when it was all white. But that was Lucas's whole thing, is like,

1:46:20"What could I not do because of budget or technology or time or both?"

1:46:23Like, "Well, I couldn't have things through the windows. I had to paint them all white, so I'll put stuff in the windows."

1:46:27in the windows. I didn't like the stuff in the windows. I liked it being all white. When

1:46:30I was a kid I didn't feel like, "Hey, why are the walls opaque?" I felt like this is

1:46:33a weird futuristic looking set where everything is white. And when they changed it, it jumped

1:46:38out to me.

1:46:39Sure, but it didn't make it worse. It was the movie that didn't get worse for being

1:46:42special editions.

1:46:43It didn't get a pretty--because who cares about that? Like, it's a minor point. Like,

1:46:46"Oh, we get to see them fly into Cloud City." Meh, it doesn't fit in with the rest of the

1:46:49movie. It sticks out, you don't need it. But like, there was so little they had to do.

1:46:53They weren't inserting entire new musical numbers, for example.

1:46:56They weren't altering major plot points like having Greedo shoot at Han.

1:47:01They didn't load up 20 more AT-ATs in the Hoth battlefield.

1:47:06Right. They were like, "Oh, I wish I could have had more things going on in the Hoth

1:47:09battlefield." No, the amount of things in the Hoth battle scene was appropriate. It was fine.

1:47:13You don't need to have, "Oh, let's put a bunch of things in the background, too."

1:47:15And then we have a whole other section where we fly around. It didn't need to be there.

1:47:19Yeah, they cleaned up the mat lines. They added a few things here and there.

1:47:22They showed the wamper arm getting chopped off.

1:47:24The matte line thing that annoys me with that is, I don't know if you guys remember, but they redid the matte line.

1:47:30So it wasn't called Special Edition, but they did a cleaned up effects version of it.

1:47:33I don't remember what release it was for. Maybe it was for like VHS or maybe like, but they, they,

1:47:38he did go back and clean up a lot of the worst of the optical matting.

1:47:41And that was the approach, like, that's why I kind of had high hopes for Special Editions,

1:47:46because it was kind of like, oh, it's going to be more of that stuff.

1:47:48It's going to be like things that were limitations of technology at the time,

1:47:51where the mat lines were super annoying or when there was something just clean that i don't know

1:47:55if you remember better than the snow speeders used to be able to see through the cockpit into the

1:47:58yeah yeah slightly translucent and you oh yeah make that if you can make it opaque now fine

1:48:03because that's you feel like that's not changing the movie and it's a special edition and it's like

1:48:07cleaned up but it's not like insert entirely new footage yeah yeah and i i remember and i believe

1:48:12it too as i've read that uh with the mat lines on the spaceships like in the dog fighting

1:48:18A new hope when it was theatrically shown originally they might it you might have able to squint and see them

1:48:24But just because of the nature between projecting versus the home video transfer

1:48:28They were nowhere near as noticeable a lot of it was really just that it was that the first home video transfer was too light

1:48:34They blew out the blacks

1:48:36Whereas everything looked it was a lot richer black. It wasn't like wow

1:48:40I don't remember seeing those lines around the tie fader fighters when I was a kid West cuz you didn't really see him

1:48:44Yeah, I'd buy that. Yeah

1:48:47But anyway, that was my thing as I and to me nothing epitomizes it more than the Han shooting first

1:48:52And I know it's a cliche. I know that it's like a super popular t-shirt, you know Han shot first

1:48:57But I feel like it's one of those things that it it's a cliche because it really does it

1:49:03It's a way to just put your finger on everything that's wrong with the special editions

1:49:07because it seems to me it always and this is the way I put it is it's almost as though like if

1:49:12George Lucas had sold Star Wars to Disney in 93 and then Disney did the exact same things

1:49:19You'd be like, oh my god. This corporation doesn't know jack shit

1:49:23It's like they don't even understand Star Wars and they're ruining this great thing

1:49:26It's almost mind-boggling that it was all done by the guy who made it

1:49:31Well, it's not my body. It makes sense to me because the guy who made it got older

1:49:35It's the same thing that happened with the walkie-talkies in ET

1:49:37It's like both people are like I'm I'm very well known for this famous movie now

1:49:41Now I'm an older person and when I go back and look at the movie that I made when I was

1:49:44a younger man, I feel differently about it.

1:49:47And if I was making it today, I would make it differently.

1:49:49And I feel it's too harsh for Han to shoot first because Han is a sympathetic character

1:49:54and you start thinking of the children and I'm a father now or whatever.

1:49:56And the whole lesson from this is fine, then make a different movie now.

1:50:01This is the movie you made when you were a young man and this is a movie made by a young

1:50:06man.

1:50:07And when you go back and change that, that is the worst sin of the movies.

1:50:11I know that you have changed.

1:50:12If you have changed, make new art

1:50:13that expresses where you are today.

1:50:15But don't, and Spielberg,

1:50:16the fact that his contemporary Spielberg

1:50:18did the same thing with E.T.,

1:50:19oh, it's too upsetting that the people chasing after E.T.

1:50:22have shotguns, put a walkie-talkie in there.

1:50:23That's how you feel now as a 50, 60 year old man,

1:50:26it's fine, but you can't go back

1:50:27and change the thing you made when you were a young man.

1:50:29- Did he go back and change that back to guns at one point?

1:50:31- Yeah, I mean, he was guilted into it

1:50:33because he's also less stubborn than George.

1:50:35- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:50:36He was like, yeah, that was--

1:50:36- But it's the same impulse,

1:50:38because the people who made the movies got older,

1:50:40And they still had the creative control to say you know what I want to make a new version of this movie that better reflects

1:50:45Who I am today, and it's like no make make a new movie for who you are today

1:50:48That's the movie you made then when you were a different person, and it was a valid thing to be I

1:50:52Agree with both of you. I think we're saying the same thing which is that you know the

1:50:57You would have to write an entirely different scene to not have him shoot first because the thing if you if you've seen the film

1:51:04Even once you can see that that he tries to talk his way out of it

1:51:07He realizes he doesn't and there is no way out for him other than to shoot credo

1:51:11Greedo is going to kill him right there over my dead body. Yeah, that's the idea

1:51:14I mean and the thing is he's prepping for like he's he is a cagey person. He is prepping for that the whole time

1:51:20He's like he's not gonna say

1:51:21Oh after I fail to talk myself out of it then think of a plan B plan B is already ready plan B has to already

1:51:25Be ready because that's how he lives this long in his business

1:51:27It feels like a change that was mandated by like Disney corporate, you know

1:51:32Like we we can't have a hero shoot first

1:51:36Barely can be bothered to take out the blackface in their old movies

1:51:39I would have just left the shooting first like that's fine. Well, I'm just upset about I'm just saying though

1:51:45It feels like somebody outside the film who hadn't even seen it is just holding up a check lock a checklist

1:51:51That says the heroes can't do this

1:51:53It feels like it feels like somebody from like that. What is that thing the

1:51:55Something parents Association people always write to the FCC to complain

1:51:59It's like sort of like an old person who's like Oh kids these days and they're cursing and

1:52:06baggy pants and we really need to quill this up and like it's that type of that

1:52:10type of idea that older people who are uncomfortable with things that younger

1:52:16people think are cool like because you know it's just it's just too harsh and

1:52:19that character feels he was like Han Solo is is a lovable likable good

1:52:23character and he would never do something that bad whereas a younger

1:52:26filmmaker or anybody with more artistic integrity to say is good people do bad

1:52:29things people grow the same reason you know that he grew he should have been

1:52:32able to say this is what Han was like when he was younger and less wise and

1:52:36you know and when I made the movie that's the character I made and now Han

1:52:40is older and more wise and kinder and he has changed but you can't retroactively

1:52:43go back and make yourself it's like retroactively going back in your own

1:52:46life and making yourself not do stupid things when you're a teenager that's

1:52:48part of who you are we haven't spoken much about return of the Jedi yet just

1:52:55the opening where Luke you know it's sort of you know vaguely touching the

1:53:00on maybe what a Jedi would do in terms of the dark side so that movie that

1:53:07movie I think the more I watch it as I get older the more I like it really yeah

1:53:12I don't love it and it's nowhere near it doesn't make me anywhere near as happy

1:53:15as Star Wars or Empire does but I almost feel like I don't know how else I'm

1:53:20nostalgic yeah okay well so I put it I put it above Star Wars for me just

1:53:26because I feel like it is a more,

1:53:29it's like, so Empire took it up to the next level.

1:53:31Say here's a movie that's appreciated for all ages.

1:53:34It has sophisticated story, emotion,

1:53:37things for adults in it and also kids will love it.

1:53:39So that brought it up to the adult level.

1:53:41Jedi brought things back down a little bit

1:53:43with the EOOC business,

1:53:44but I feel like the culmination of the arc,

1:53:45how this story ends, the whole angle of like Luke

1:53:48doing something that movie heroes never do,

1:53:51which is, you know, pacifism is the victory.

1:53:53Like that never happened.

1:53:54pacifists are wimps.

1:53:56Nobody wants a pacifist.

1:53:57You want John McClane to shoot the guy.

1:54:00You want the cop who was guilty about shooting

1:54:02a little kid. - And drop him off the roof.

1:54:04- Right, yeah, and you want the cop who felt bad

1:54:07or who couldn't pick up his gun again

1:54:08'cause he accidentally shot that kid to get his gun back

1:54:10and say, "Now I'm confident enough

1:54:11"that I can shoot people again."

1:54:13Like, pacifism never wins.

1:54:14Can you think of any other movie anywhere

1:54:17where pacifism leads to victory?

1:54:18Again, it's kind of a-- - Gandhi.

1:54:20- Vader does a thing.

1:54:21Maybe Gandhi, like, but that's, you know,

1:54:23You gotta dig pretty deep down.

1:54:26That is the struggle at the end.

1:54:27It is a sophisticated struggle,

1:54:31an emotional struggle between Luke not giving in

1:54:34to his anger and fighting Vader,

1:54:37and the moment when Luke is winning the fight,

1:54:39which is what you want the good guy to do in most movies.

1:54:42Kids are rooting for the guy, beat the bad guy.

1:54:43Good guy, beat the bad guy.

1:54:44Good guy may be down for the count.

1:54:46Good guy may be on the ropes, but he's gonna come back

1:54:47and he's strong and he's gonna beat the bad guy.

1:54:50When that's happening in Jedi, that's the bad.

1:54:53You're like no Luke don't do that you bring little kids along on that journey because all little kids want is the good guy to

1:54:58Beat the bad guy to bring little kids along to the point where they are sad when the good guy is beating the bad guy

1:55:04I think it's a nice message. I think it's a message that is never ever seen and I think the sophistication of that culmination

1:55:10Yes, they do blow up the Death Star again, but the sophistication of the resolution of the Luke Vader story

1:55:15Elevates the rest of that movie silly walks and all okay

1:55:19So I totally agree with you in terms of Luke's arc and yes, that is the most satisfying thing and it's ultimately it redeems

1:55:26Vader and and Luke and and the space battle is good too. Oh, yeah. Oh my god

1:55:31They don't make space battles like that

1:55:35Yeah, it's not just a bunch of ships flying around you care about Lando by that point because you know him you care that he's

1:55:41Flying someone else's ship, right?

1:55:43You care like the the three fronts thing people down on the planet people in the space station Luke and the Death Star

1:55:48The coordination between those three lines of action is I think very well done. I'm tempted to do in many other movies

1:55:55I think is it you know it's in a modern device

1:55:57It's like oh we see that all the time the multiple lines of action culminating around one thing

1:56:01But this was an early occurrence, and I think the balance between those three plot lines is just very nice

1:56:06So sometimes when they're on the you walk planet

1:56:08You're not that interested, but at least it's all connected in a way that you understand and in a way

1:56:12But what I don't like about it is

1:56:14Sorry, John. I think I cut you off, but just well

1:56:17I was just gonna say that it makes sense not scientifically not like if you really try to think it through

1:56:22But if you just go with the flow of Star Wars level logic, it makes sense that all three things are simultaneous

1:56:28Yeah, I mean just as a narrative

1:56:30They're relying on each other like this this this cast that we've come to know and they've been with each other their ensemble cast

1:56:37They're friends

1:56:38They are spread out to be different missions for this final battle here and they're all relying on trailer

1:56:43If Han doesn't get that shield down, they can't do the attack.

1:56:45And if Luke doesn't defeat the Emperor inside there, it doesn't matter because,

1:56:50you know, if he gets turned, then they could blow up the Death Star.

1:56:53But then they have a problem anyway because the Emperor will survive.

1:56:55The only person who kills the Emperor is Vader.

1:56:56So all they're all depending on each other and they're all leverage of each other.

1:57:00Like the Emperor saying, oh, your friends out there, you think they're,

1:57:03we know about their plan.

1:57:04They're screwed.

1:57:04Like it all, it all connects nicely.

1:57:06So I, so I completely agree with you that I guess the, the last third or at least

1:57:11the second half of that movie is great.

1:57:13We've got Akbar, he's amazing. The ship battle is great.

1:57:17The surprise appearance of the bulk of the Imperial fleet, amazing.

1:57:22The shield being up and all of those ships having to dodge, amazing.

1:57:26Everything's great. I love it. And you're totally right about everything coming together.

1:57:30Jedi for me starts out with the world's most inane Higgledy-piggledy plan of like,

1:57:38like what the hell are you doing so you give you give the droids to Java and

1:57:44you've got Lando embedded and then you hand over but then wait then you hand

1:57:52over Chewbacca and then you try to get and solely released but here's what

1:57:59hand but you back is already in the thing and then when it comes down to it

1:58:03you you thought you were gonna get dragged over so like pit so that are too

1:58:07DJ would be serving drinks and jettison at like a lightsaber to you so you can just had not as

1:58:12It is the stupidest plan

1:58:15They're outgunned right because the people are going after Han it's not the entire rebellion the entire rebellion is not coming down to me

1:58:21No, no, no, it's just it's just it's right. And so they can frontal assault is not gonna work sure

1:58:26So they seem to have planned ABC and D. So they have a lot of things going on here

1:58:31They have people embedded there. They have the droids Luke goes there like he's planned

1:58:35You know he's probably his primary plan is probably you know talk his way

1:58:38We can get maybe we can get him out with these guys who are embedded if they can't send in Luke

1:58:42But don't send in Luke with his lightsaber because if Luke gets screwed we need to have his lightsaber available so smuggle that into our

1:58:46two right it's a lot of contingency plans and basically all their contingencies needed to be there because

1:58:52everything goes wrong and they're at the brink of death and their final contingency was

1:58:57Luke can get out of this as long as he has his lightsaber. We do have his lightsaber like yeah

1:59:01I don't see them as contingencies. Yeah, so much as like we're gonna set up a bunch of things that may be useful and

1:59:07Maybe it'll all work out like but that's a good opening scene. It's like a good bond opening scene. It's like yeah

1:59:13That's exactly it's contrived. It's silly it goes on a lot longer than a bond opening scene

1:59:16It is a little bit contrived

1:59:17But you get to see first of all you've got to resolve the Han angle and get that out of the way

1:59:20Yes of the movie and second of all it's it's like a series of fun action set pieces

1:59:25It's it's like it's you know three bond ones you got the rank or you've got the the Sarlacc pit

1:59:31And then you've got a lot of like intrigue with people in this guy Bob Bob affair sadly, sorry, John

1:59:35I keep cutting you off. Well, the only Star Wars movie that doesn't have any scenes on Tatooine

1:59:40empire, yeah, right and

1:59:43Here they are back on Tatooine and instead of feeling at that time because at that point

1:59:4850% of all Star Wars movies had scenes on Tatooine just you know half just the one here

1:59:54It is it felt like a you know, he started on Tatooine

1:59:58He didn't know shit about the force now. He's back on Tatooine and he's a Jedi. Mm-hmm and it felt like a

2:00:03Another loop you're not just closing the loop on Han being kidnapped and frozen in carbonite. You're closing the loop on Luke's

2:00:10You know childhood and my that sets up the rest of the arc of the movie though because he you saw him at the end

2:00:17Of Empire and he is defeated his hand is cut off. He's a mess emotionally. He just found out Vader his father

2:00:23He is at his low you see him in Jedi

2:00:25I hear like who is this guy cuz last time I saw him he was drenched in sweat with his hand cut off and looking

2:00:30Like crap now this guy is confidently strolling into here. I'm strangling people

2:00:34Confidently going in and he's like super powerful like wow Lucas super powerful

2:00:40I guess his his arc is done and you find out his arc is not done because what he's got to deal with now is

2:00:44Oh, so you think you're the master of the force everything

2:00:47You don't even know what the actual battle is against your nature of not using your newfound power is for evil

2:00:52And that is the actual battle and that's why he goes back to Yoda and is like, "Oh, you think you're a Jedi? No, you have to face Vader."

2:00:57Why does he have to face Vader? It's not like some trial.

2:00:59Like, "Oh, you have to..." The understanding of it being as a kid is like, "You have to face Vader because when you beat him that shows you're the best guy."

2:01:05"Because the best is the guy." No, you have to face Vader because you have to deal with the whole dark side angle.

2:01:10Like, remember your failure in the cave. You have to face Vader to show that you really are on the light side of the Force and not the dark side.

2:01:17The only way to do that is to test yourself against someone that you totally want to kill and not do it.

2:01:21I agree with you guy that it logically

2:01:25Probably should just gone in with the lights. Yeah, you know that the whole idea that instead of going in with the lightsaber

2:01:32I'll smuggle it in our - and I'll just assume that if and when I really need it

2:01:36He'll be in but he can't go with the lightsaber because if he's got to kill every man woman and child in Jabba's Palace

2:01:42It's not like he's gonna run race out of there with a gigantic car

2:01:44No, but he but he grabs somebody's gun and tries to blast jab in the face

2:01:49That is not that is not Jedi stuff that is he's improvising at that point because he's trying to shoot an unknown guy in the face

2:01:56That is not he's trying to negotiate his way out of the thing and they're like, oh actually we're gonna send you into the pit

2:02:01And he tries to use the force to get out of it

2:02:03It's like things don't go well for him isn't isn't that the first time in the movies?

2:02:08We've because we you know, the whole the whole original trilogy is relatively light on Jedi action, you know

2:02:15Yeah, it's the first time we've seen the Jedi mind trick not work on somebody

2:02:18And that's where we learn that it only works on weak-minded fools.

2:02:23Well no, actually I think Kenobi says it, the force can have a powerful influence on

2:02:28the weak-minded.

2:02:29Yeah, I mean the original trilogy is really good at paying off things in ways that movies

2:02:35are not patient about now.

2:02:36Movies today have something in the beginning of the movie and they're going to pay it off

2:02:39by the end of the movie.

2:02:40Very rarely do you have something in one movie and pay off in a second movie and the Star

2:02:44Wars trilogy has tons of things in the first movie that do not get paid off until two movies

2:02:48Which nobody has the guts to do anymore except for maybe like the big Marvel arcs now that they have I mean

2:02:53But even that is like you're much more assured like they set up so much stuff in a new hope even Jabba the Hutt himself

2:02:58Is set up in a new hope would have been in the movie they had the time or budget they didn't put him in the second

2:03:02Movie he's in the third movie, right?

2:03:04Yeah pay off that the debt that we from we first seen we meet Han Solo 40 minutes into a new hope

2:03:10We don't pay it off until the third movie

2:03:13To an empire right like I've got to assume that the guy I know what Mandel is sent by Java. Yeah. No they say that

2:03:19Yeah, that's a death. What does he say the general says like a death sentence? Yeah

2:03:22Yeah, they don't mention Java by name, but it's clearly

2:03:27And I think Luke's idea that hey, I'll try the Jedi mind trick on it. Maybe this would be easy

2:03:33Who would that have been dissatisfied if Java was like, okay?

2:03:37You have to end up puncturing Luke's confidence because he comes in as a star-coated figure

2:03:42Who could this be and like he works any super confident you will give Han Solo to me and like gradually things fall apart

2:03:47Well, he gets passed out. He's like how we doing, you know, same as usual. Is that bad, huh?

2:03:51Like at that point like his his confidence in buster has been pierced and he's back to the old likable Luke that who's like

2:03:58Well, he's more powerful now, but things really aren't going well anyway

2:04:01No, cuz he does get past the butler with that the Jedi mind trick, right?

2:04:05And that's what sets up jabber to be like, oh, yeah fool you idiot like yeah

2:04:11get his right hand to help, you know? Yeah. Yeah, his twisty-headed consigliere. Yeah,

2:04:15I'm sure there's a name in people yelling at us right now, but whatever.

2:04:19My only problem with the opening scene, which I agree pace-wise, even more than the battle at

2:04:25Hoth, which is almost more of like an opening act because it involves everything from Luke,

2:04:30you know, getting captured by the wampa and Han rescuing him to the whole battle,

2:04:35to me that the the the Java scene pace-wise feels like a bond opening yeah thing my only problem

2:04:42with that whole bit is the ignominious way that Boba Fett yeah it's his end no that's not good

2:04:47it's not it's not talk about it it's a sign of things to come yeah I don't know how you can do

2:04:53that what I think they do give him a Wilhelm which is a little nod of respect but other than that

2:04:58Well, yeah, I don't I just don't understand

2:05:01You know

2:05:05They knew how cool he was. Why would you do that?

2:05:07There's a lot more slapstick in Jedi

2:05:10There's a lot more humor and slapstick stuff which I think for the most part works

2:05:13But the fact that Boba Fett gets wrapped up in a slapstick joke and that ends up being his death is a shame

2:05:18He's the only guy that can go toe-to-toe with the Jedi and he looks like he's gonna win like it

2:05:23Yeah, and normally he's crafty and waiting for his moment. Like he's established as

2:05:28as not the toughest bounty hunter, but the smartest, the street

2:05:31exactly. An empire that establishes his character.

2:05:34And he doesn't even get taken out by purpose. He gets taken out

2:05:37by what like, yeah, like a blind hand.

2:05:40He either should not have been there at all and just leave, you

2:05:44know, he's not there. Or he should have gotten away. Well, I

2:05:47mean, I'm okay with Luke cutting his gun in half because like,

2:05:50well, you're up against a Jedi. Yeah, that can happen. I'm not

2:05:53okay with the way he died. That's garbage.

2:05:56But they made him even worse by having him basically be all into that musical scene that they added.

2:06:01Like, they just keep making Bompafette more and more sad.

2:06:04Well, in the original run, he just gives the little nod to the sexy girl dancer, which is totally a Bompafette thing.

2:06:10Of course, yeah. That's badass.

2:06:13But, yeah. And let's not even get into Jango Fett and the whole...

2:06:18God, what a waste of a character.

2:06:22Well, I you know and the only other thing I'll say about return of the Jedi is that to me the weak spot is the

2:06:27whole thing on

2:06:28the

2:06:30Endor moon that third moon event like the whole the middle bit with the Ewoks

2:06:33Yeah, it just doesn't live up and it's it's partly just that the whole Ewok thing was where the merchandising started getting out of hand

2:06:41Because it was like have you guys heard this?

2:06:44There's the I don't know, you know

2:06:45You never know how much of this is apocryphal and how much is true but that the toys had already been put into

2:06:49production before they made the costumes and the costumes were like just incredibly hot and

2:06:54Just and it really limited the actors ability to move. That's why they just sort of waddle instead of walk. I

2:07:01Hadn't heard that. I had heard that eventually was gonna be

2:07:05The Wookie planet Kashi. Yeah. Yeah. Well, which would have been a lot cooler

2:07:10Yeah, but your work is taking on a strong troopers. You can believe that

2:07:13Right, and there's just a silliness to it that these little furry, you know

2:07:18fit tall creatures are beating stormtroopers literally with rocks.

2:07:22I do like that.

2:07:22I do like the...

2:07:23There is a good insurgent angle, like native people insurgent type thing,

2:07:27but the Ewoks are one of those characters that are mostly

2:07:29made for kids and don't have much value for adults.

2:07:34I do like the notion that the Ewoks represent nature,

2:07:39while the Imperial troops represent like some kind of technological terror.

2:07:43Yeah, there's that obvious angle and there's also the angle of like an insurgent force

2:07:46against a much more dominant military force than the fact that insurgents could

2:07:50Native Americans versus you know during the Indian war.

2:07:56The same type of territory that was trod much more seriously in Ballastar Galactica.

2:07:59Yes.

2:08:00I think that was an allegory for the Iraq war.

2:08:02Yes.

2:08:02And I feel like the other thing that was evident with the whole segment is that they had these

2:08:08characters Han and Leia who we wanted to see more of and would they just they so we got these

2:08:16scenes with them, you know, having this assault on the shield generator. Whereas the real,

2:08:23what really mattered, what was left to really matter in the story was the other two angles,

2:08:28which was the big space battle with the fleet, the two fleets fighting each other. And, you

2:08:34know, and then primarily the Luke Vader emperor. Yeah, I mean, so the whole Endor thing, in

2:08:38addition to being silly, just because they're little Ewoks, it really felt a little forced

2:08:44because it's like well we just want more Han and Leia and we're never gonna see them again.

2:08:48That was the gorilla action supporting the larger thing it's like you got to deactivate the shield

2:08:52generator which is in a remote place you're going to send a small strike team because this is your

2:08:55stealth mission that's why Luke doesn't go on it he's endangering the mission he shouldn't have

2:08:58come because they could sense him and all stuff you get to have a speeder chase through the the

2:09:02redwoods that's also a nice action scene there. It's brilliant. Yeah well it fits a lot better

2:09:07than like the pod racing scene which is just this whole giant digression whereas the the the

2:09:14speeder bikes and the moon was just a really cool action and the speeder bike is like uh you know

2:09:19the whole idea is that stealth and so it's jammed their comlink with just a little yeah script he

2:09:23used to say we want to have a chase scene and the stakes of the chase scene are as if you let these

2:09:27guys escape they're going to tell the whole empire that you're down here never mind the emperor already

2:09:30knows you're down here at that point the audience doesn't know that but there's a reason for the

2:09:33chase scene there's a reason for the desperation it's basically hide and seek we don't want

2:09:37The Empire to know we're down here some people start getting us the whole thing

2:09:40You think you got them all then you see two other guys get off on speeder bikes

2:09:42Then you got to jump on a speeder bike and make sure they don't get out of here

2:09:45So one thing that used to bother me as a kid and only recently have I come around to the thought that maybe Lucas actually

2:09:51This is like his last hurrah and he knew what he was doing and it's actually pretty good

2:09:55Character development and screenwriting is it always bothered me as a kid that in Empire

2:10:02Vader doesn't really want to hit and not even really just doesn't want to kill Luke

2:10:06He wants to turn Luke and doesn't want to turn him for the Emperor

2:10:09I think he truly and sincerely means it when he says join me and

2:10:14Totally he meant that an empire to possess the whole no. No, it's only an empire

2:10:19He doesn't even make the offer in return of the Jedi

2:10:22You know

2:10:23He just takes custody of Luke and at that moment where he takes custody of Luke and he and he takes his lightsaber

2:10:29he says he was carrying this sir and he gives him his lightsaber and

2:10:32It's the little I've said this before on other podcasts

2:10:35It's one of my favorite little moments in all of the whole series is what does Vader do when he gets Luke's lightsaber?

2:10:40Well, of course, he turns it on and he tries it out a little bit just waves it around feels the weight

2:10:45It's like that's what like when I used to ride a skateboard when I was a teenager you get somebody else's skateboard

2:10:50What do you do you take you know, you may not take it all the way around the block

2:10:52You just try it out a little bit see what it's like, you know

2:10:55Well, so the whole father-son angle like you're coming in the beginning like an empire

2:10:59It's like oh my you're identifying with Luke like oh Darth Vader is my father. What a dramatic revelation

2:11:04and I'm upset about it and so on and so forth.

2:11:06By the time Jedi comes around, you're looking at it from the other direction.

2:11:10Vader is going, "Luke is my--"

2:11:11Obviously he's known as "Luke is always his son,"

2:11:13but now he's like, "I've seen my son. This is my son."

2:11:15If your son made a lightsaber, you'd be kind of proud of like,

2:11:18"Hey, my son made a pretty good lightsaber here."

2:11:20- You know, like-- - Your training is now complete?

2:11:22If you are internally a, you know, a thinking, feeling person,

2:11:26and you meet up with your son, like, those feelings are going to be there.

2:11:29Like, the fatherly feelings are going to be there,

2:11:31and that is the feeling that Vader has in Jedi.

2:11:33You know there is no conflict, but there is and the conflict is that you know my son is actually pretty cool

2:11:37And I I wanted him to join me in the last one

2:11:40But that was me rationalizing my I can still be evil and still have my son here when it's clear that my son is

2:11:44I'll never join you right clearly. He's not gonna join me

2:11:47I'm not too gung-ho and kill him cuz I actually kind of like my son. He's actually pretty cool

2:11:50He does some great things and I feel ashamed of the things that I've done in front of my son

2:11:54It's too late for me son blah blah blah that

2:11:56Conflict is present and because Darth Vader wears a mask for all of Jedi you get to be like is Luke like

2:12:02Wishing that was there and it's not really in Darth Vader, you know and like many times like, you know father

2:12:07We can he tries it right there on the in the scene and on Endor

2:12:09He's like come with me father

2:12:11We can go and like you get nothing from Vader's face mask because it doesn't change expression and you know

2:12:15Is Luke totally wrong about Vader or is he right?

2:12:18And they is that what is that when he is that when he turns Vader in or at least starts to turn him like he

2:12:22Walks off the ad ad and just calls him father immediately

2:12:25Yeah, no playing up the angles. That's a superpower move right like hi dad

2:12:30- Yep, yep.

2:12:31- Like, boom.

2:12:32- And Vader is resisting it.

2:12:34- The hole that I always thought I saw as a kid

2:12:36was that why doesn't Vader make the same offer again

2:12:39and just be like, look, I'll give you your lightsaber back.

2:12:41Let's go kill this guy.

2:12:43You and I have our differences.

2:12:44We can sort them out after we kill some of the big jumpers.

2:12:46- I think he's established by the hole.

2:12:48You know, I was threatening to kill you.

2:12:50I cut off your hand, I was threatening to kill you,

2:12:51and you still turned me down.

2:12:53Like, that's not gonna happen.

2:12:54- Nope, and then watching it again in recent years,

2:12:56I think that that's actually the way it plays out.

2:12:58And it also fits with the way that Luke is clearly a more mature character and more composed

2:13:06at the beginning, even just at the beginning of Return of the Jedi than he was.

2:13:11That scene on Bespin in Cloud City, that was Vader's chance to turn him.

2:13:15Well, just the fact that he surrenders willingly, hands over his lightsaber to the stormtrooper

2:13:21patrol shows a resolve in Luke that I think Vader recognizes he won't be able to break.

2:13:29- And also, Luke was optimistic. He thought he could turn Vader. He was right in the end,

2:13:33but he thought he could turn. There is good in him, I have felt it. When did he feel it?

2:13:36He felt it after the end of Empire when Vader... Basically, Vader could have killed him many times

2:13:41and then he was trying to turn him. And then when Luke was going off, he's like, they're

2:13:44communicating telepathically as father and son, right? That's the point where you feel there's

2:13:49us some good in him because he is not communicating telepathically, "Boy, I'm gonna get you, Luke.

2:13:53When I see you next time, I'm gonna kill you." It's like father-son across this distance.

2:13:56Not only that, one of my favorite parts of Empire is when the Falcon finally jumps into

2:14:02hyperspace. Vader doesn't kill anybody.

2:14:05Yeah, Vader just turns around. He's too depressed, though.

2:14:09There's two things. A, you did everything I told you to. You disabled the hyperdrive,

2:14:12everything. It didn't work out. But my son got away, I'm kind of depressed, and I can't

2:14:17even be bothered to murder anybody at this point.

2:14:19- Yep, yep.

2:14:21It's an emotional moment for Vader.

2:14:23And again, we don't see emotion on his face

2:14:24'cause it's just a mask and it never changes

2:14:26and it's not even that much body language

2:14:27but what you've got is--

2:14:28- No, he just turns around and kind of walks off,

2:14:30kind of dejected.

2:14:31- The hothead that was constantly killing people,

2:14:33the frustrated hothead that was constantly killing people

2:14:35because he wasn't getting what he wanted,

2:14:37he realizes that nothing could get him what he wanted to hear

2:14:39because what he wants is his son to love him.

2:14:41(laughing)

2:14:43- For some reason, the helmet is oddly expressive

2:14:46in a certain way.

2:14:47I wonder if that's like lighting. It's a blank canvas, right?

2:14:50Right, and and it's you know, I think it's all tied with musical cues, but it like in the whole first movie

2:14:56It just looks like the most evil badass mask you can imagine and there are some differences

2:15:01I know that in the next two it was a lot more polished like in the first one. He changes

2:15:05And they had a problem in in the original one of getting the eyes to be completely black and opaque like sometimes there

2:15:13They're a little bit lighter gray and it was a little bit danger Empire

2:15:16I think is the best Vader because it is it is sleek and menacing but like you said also

2:15:21There is more body language now

2:15:23It's more expressive with like him reaching out with his hand doing all this stuff like he he's able to act more with his body

2:15:28In Empire also in Empire his cape seems to not cover his shoulders a lot like you see those big massive shoulder pads a lot

2:15:36More yeah, and it waves behind him and there's wind like you've got like the body language of Vader when you know the surprise dinner with

2:15:44Orlando leaving them all open the door is that Vader standing at the head of the table both at how cool is it?

2:15:49Han Solo yeah, everybody come on. Let's just get Han Solo tattoos. He knows he knows to goes law yeah proudest moment

2:15:55It's so good proudest. He stands in front of layer and just start shooting. That's

2:15:58That's what you do. That's it's that's the answer

2:16:02so perfect

2:16:05Doesn't work the best the best James Bond ones the best James Bond speaking trans bond like the best James Bond

2:16:10sequences are the sequences in which

2:16:13Bond does bond reacts in the appropriate way

2:16:16Before the audience has time to think about what the appropriate way exactly because he's the one who's been in the situation many times for

2:16:22And the only reason he's still alive is because he immediately knows what to do

2:16:24Yeah, and there's not a lot of reaction shot

2:16:27What should I do about blood bond as a man of action immediately?

2:16:30We knows when it's the action is called for immediately goes into action and it catches the audience by surprise

2:16:34That's the kind of that I like so that everybody wants on everybody wants to think they're good in a pinch

2:16:39Yeah, but Han Solo is good in pain

2:16:41But that's the only time I think we've ever seen that I don't know if it's the force or because he's a robot

2:16:46But he just catches a bunch of laser bolts

2:16:49Which is super super badass, but it's kind of this steady ramping up of what is possible with the force

2:16:55Yeah, you know we knew that you could

2:16:57Think we might have known you could block

2:17:00Blaster bolts with the lightsaber, but he does it with his hands, and it shows that he's we don't we don't see that

2:17:05We don't see that to legit. I actually yeah, especially like Yoda moves lots of stuff with his money

2:17:10So that shows that it is powerful, but he's not teaching Luke karate moves or how to chop things.

2:17:16There's not a lot of scenes on Dagobah where he's showing him fancy lightsaber moves.

2:17:20This is how you chop stuff up.

2:17:21It never does.

2:17:22That's not what the Force is about then.

2:17:22Yoda never changes.

2:17:25So the dark side Force, what would you do with the Force if you were not in the Yoda school of

2:17:29what the Force is all about?

2:17:30And that could involve blocking things with your hands and in a third movie shooting lightning

2:17:35bolts out of your hands.

2:17:37We don't know where how far this this leveling tree goes

2:17:40But I would almost say that it comes right out of like a horror movie where you don't you know

2:17:44Like the monster can you just oh shit?

2:17:46You can't even see this you empty you a gun right a vampire or the mummy or something. Yeah, nothing happens

2:17:51It's like and what you want to show there is Han being a man of action and not going Vader

2:17:56I knew I would find you because that's stupid to goes right right and also showing that Han may have that inclination

2:18:02But he is not of the magic using grass and that like his everything he can do it is

2:18:08It's like a child's toy now

2:18:10He'll block a few things then take Hans gone and say please sit down because you you hon

2:18:15That's something like why can't Han Solo go and fight Darth Vader? Why does it have to be Luke?

2:18:19well the reason is because

2:18:21Yeah, it's never been clear to me though

2:18:24I'm not quite sure though if that that move of blocking the blaster with your hand because we never see that even in the Clone Wars

2:18:30Where the general shot that?

2:18:32I it might be because he's got robotic. That's what I was thinking. I'm not sure. I'm just gonna go with whatever

2:18:36You think the force has to be involved? Yeah, I'm gonna go with it

2:18:39Yeah, because it's the most powerful thing a little bit Vader do and fine

2:18:43I'm gonna go a little bit column a little bit column B

2:18:45It's both like maybe Vader's like the only guy who could yeah, maybe it would really screw up your hand if you had a real hand

2:18:50but

2:18:51Whatever, you know like either way you've got a robot

2:18:54hand afterwards. As a small observation, this is such a small detail, but it seems as though

2:19:07the advances in, what would you call it? What do you call it like when somebody gets an artificial

2:19:18limb? Prosthetics. Prosthetics. Prosthetic technology advanced pretty significantly.

2:19:24significantly in the 22 years. You think it's the only technology that advanced? It could have also been a fashion choice

2:19:29Like one is try to make it look at most like a human hand and the other one is can you make me into a

2:19:34machine of war? Yeah, that's two different goals. So wait, we're talking about the end of episode two, right? When he's got

2:19:39Yeah, yeah, I'm not even talking about Vader. I'm talking about

2:19:42Young Anakin, you know. That could also be a style choice too because it wasn't it was like steampunk

2:19:48It was like well kind of brass and it was kind of like art deco steampunk kind of thing

2:19:53which is a lot of the aesthetic of--

2:19:55- Like Luke went to a nice cosmetic surgeon.

2:19:57- Yeah, yeah, he got a real hand.

2:19:59His poor old pappy got like a steam engine

2:20:04attached to his wrist.

2:20:05- How are we doing on time?

2:20:07I know that it's getting late.

2:20:08Can we have 15 more minutes?

2:20:10(upbeat music)

2:20:12(upbeat music)

2:20:15- Yeah, for sure.

2:20:32Do you gotta do another sponsor?

2:20:33- Maybe I do.

2:20:36At the very least I want--

2:20:37- You run the show.

2:20:39- At the very least I want John to get a good night's sleep

2:20:42before going to work.

2:20:43- Oh yeah. - No work tomorrow.

2:20:45You don't work tomorrow?

2:20:46- No, I get off.

2:20:47- Well then we can go on. - Oh man, okay.

2:20:48We got another couple of hours, yeah.

2:20:50- All right, well, let me take one more break

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2:24:17slash the talk show

2:24:18of slash talk show no that

2:24:21even i got that

2:24:23so that brings me to a point here's a point i wanted me it's a funny time but

2:24:27i wanted to make this before we wrap up the show

2:24:30One thing that Star Wars does, and I think it's a good thing, but it doesn't really make any logical sense,

2:24:36is there just always been very hand-wavy yada yada yada dot dot dot

2:24:42about how long it takes to get from one planet to another in hyperspace.

2:24:48It's seemingly a big deal to get from Tatooine to Alderaan because they have to pay

2:24:5310,000 credit 10,000 credit 17,000 and it's enough that Luke says we could almost buy our own ship. It's you know

2:25:00But how long is it nobody changes their clothes, you know, they do the movie is not about long space flights

2:25:09So that's not an important part of the movie needs to be in there

2:25:11And all you got to do is make it seem like a really long car trip because that's what people can relate to

2:25:15It's gonna be like a really long car trip guys

2:25:17And then that's how much time you have in terms of time passing in the movie

2:25:20That's how like well if you're in if you're in some town in the middle of nowhere and you want to get to the big

2:25:24City, you got to somehow get there either by doing a long car trip or taking a bus or train or something like that

2:25:29I guess it's not a lot of public transportation the galaxy, but if you're gonna have any galaxy spanning civilization

2:25:33You just got a hand wave travel time. Yeah, and there is some notion of that

2:25:37Tarkin does not want to blow up down to in because it's too remote to make an effective demonstration

2:25:43Yeah, I don't know what the media situation is

2:25:45Yeah, like it's far far away, but the media situation is again, you know

2:25:49If we're gonna say that Tatooine is remote, like they don't have any kind of

2:25:52Galactic media that is sort of giving any sort of shared like they're not all watching Space Seinfeld together

2:25:58They're not all on the same page in terms of culture. They're not listening to the same songs

2:26:02They're not interested in news about what's going on in the other systems

2:26:05If you're a remote enough system, you could be like rebellion Empire doesn't really affect me

2:26:10We're kind of in a lawless planet run by the huts anyway, so no big deal

2:26:13It's more like the entire galaxy is about the size of the United States and it's in the United States

2:26:18It's like in the pre-Interstate Highway Age.

2:26:22Tatooine is like Arizona, Nevada maybe.

2:26:25You got the Wild West.

2:26:26It's a little bit of the Wild West.

2:26:27You got what's going on with the big city and there is organized crime and maybe there's

2:26:30prohibition and that type of communication delay.

2:26:34You guys and your American-centric line of thinking.

2:26:38But yeah, I tend to agree.

2:26:40Is there a sister in Canada?

2:26:41I don't know.

2:26:42What about this timeline?

2:26:43This timeline to me is all...

2:26:45It's just very...

2:26:46I accept it.

2:26:47mind it but it if you think about it too much it's pretty hard to explain is the

2:26:52Falcon leaves Hoth and the hyperdrive you right hyperdrive doesn't work so

2:26:59they go hide in an asteroid field because at the very least we can go

2:27:02there and these stardestories will start stop shooting at us so far so good I'll

2:27:08it just just forget that this space worm somehow gets huge on an asteroid with no

2:27:13atmosphere and yeah whatever whatever the biology of that thing is it's

2:27:17spaceships yeah it eats hydrogen maybe it's meters who knows yeah so what so

2:27:22what it's a good was a cool scene and a great surprise so I forgive it but they

2:27:26don't have a hyperdrive and they never fix the hyperdrive and then Han is

2:27:30flipping through his computer and he goes Lando huh and so somehow he can get

2:27:35to Bespin which is well it's clouds in that system they're in the know add

2:27:40system already. Where are we? He's already left the Hoth system. There's not much there.

2:27:44He's left the Hoth system. They're in the Noad system.

2:27:46That's what I'm saying. It's going to be like a long car ride. Well,

2:27:48hyperdrive will get you there faster, but if you're willing to just go along the highway at 55,

2:27:52you'll eventually get there. It's just preposterous, scientifically speaking,

2:27:55but that's the way it works. But then he's going to go to Bespin, or the Lando system,

2:27:58quote unquote. So, sorry, continued. But that's a different solar system, right?

2:28:03Yes. They're not trying to say that Bespin is on a different planet in the Hoth solar system.

2:28:08I actually don't know someone someone who knows more about Star Wars could probably map this out for us

2:28:12but I don't think so because the system could also mean the planet being the central and the moon's being the

2:28:17System, right? I think that the loosey-goosey

2:28:20site, you know Star Wars scientific explanation is that hyperdrive is really really fast and gets you, you know,

2:28:28like you said like a couple of hours you can get from one A to B and

2:28:31If you don't take hyperdrive

2:28:33there's still some kind of faster-than-light way that you're gonna get there, not like 100 years

2:28:40from now, you're gonna get there in a couple of weeks. Because that's the whole period where Luke

2:28:44is training on Dagobah. Yeah, exactly. Right? The time it takes the Falcon to get from the asteroids

2:28:50to Bespin is the time, the entirety of the time that Luke trains. Either Luke spends a grand total

2:28:56of about eight hours training, or those guys are sitting around playing an awful lot of that video,

2:29:02>>Steve, that table video game.

2:29:03>>Corey, because we covered these same topics.

2:29:05In fact, this was the title of one of the episodes of an empire, was "Jedi Weekend",

2:29:10because we were discussing how long does he spend on Dagobah.

2:29:13Is he there for a month?

2:29:14Is he there for a week?

2:29:15Or is it just like a Jedi Weekend?

2:29:16>>Corey, what's this show you speak of?

2:29:18>>Steve, you should put it in your show notes.

2:29:20>>Corey, I will.

2:29:21>>Steve, and by the way, I just Googled that.

2:29:23There's a question on swtor.com.

2:29:27How did Han get to Bespin with no light speed?

2:29:29It's a question right in the forums.

2:29:31The first answer is that it's pothole.

2:29:33Yeah.

2:29:33No, do you know what?

2:29:34I'll tell you what.

2:29:35Oh, a pothole.

2:29:35You know what?

2:29:36I'll tell you what.

2:29:36This is classic comic book writing.

2:29:40Like the hero's only ever as powerful as you need him to be for any given scene.

2:29:44Like Superman can move the moon in one scene and then just get beaten down

2:29:48by Batman in the next scene.

2:29:49It's, it's fine.

2:29:51Like I, I think, you know, Scott McNulty, forgive me, but Star

2:30:00Star Trek kind of overly fetishizes this kind of thing and it's just a detail.

2:30:04It doesn't matter.

2:30:05It has nothing to do with the narrative expression of the story.

2:30:08Right.

2:30:09Like Star Trek has gone on to explain that the warp factor going from 0 to 10 is like

2:30:15a logarithmic scale.

2:30:16Yeah, and they've changed it a couple of times in order to make more sense given the

2:30:21end.

2:30:22So apparently Hoth and Bespin are both in the NOAD system.

2:30:24I sent you a NOAD sucker.

2:30:26Oh my god, look at this.

2:30:28You know that this was backwards.

2:30:31This is somebody who this really bothered them.

2:30:37And bless them.

2:30:38Because the expanding universe and everything has to explain all this.

2:30:43People who are more into it know all these answers already because they have to make

2:30:46you know the movie gets to do throwaway lines when you write novel after novel in this universe

2:30:49you have to eventually figure out where everything is.

2:30:51Oh no wait no wait that's a second it's not the same solar system.

2:30:54It's the same sector.

2:30:55What does that mean? It doesn't matter. It's all just hand-waving.

2:30:58But you still need faster than life travel. Faster than life.

2:31:01And I feel like the movie doesn't suffer for it at all. And it would have been a whole

2:31:08midichlorian moment if they had gone the whole Star Trek factor and explained that we can no

2:31:13longer go in hyperdrive past speed one. But Star Trek doesn't do that either.

2:31:20Star Trek basically just says if it's a dramatic part of a plot, we would just simply have someone

2:31:24and explain in the moment that whatever speed we're going now is either adequate or inadequate

2:31:29for some made-up reason to escape or not escape from. It's like when they're trying to do

2:31:33the, trying to get out of the black hole in the J.J. Abrams reboot. Like the big hole

2:31:37going and the red matter and they're trying to get away from it. Like, "Oh, we're at maximum

2:31:40warp. We're not going to make it out and blow a thing up behind..." Like, they just need

2:31:42a dramatic moment. Like, there's no, there's no, before that they didn't have long discussions

2:31:47about what it would be like trying to escape from an antimatter bomb with warp engines,

2:31:52It doesn't matter.

2:31:53You just need a dramatic moment.

2:31:54In the moment, someone yells something that tells you the rules.

2:31:57You can't do that too much because then you get Doctor Who.

2:31:59Yeah, exactly.

2:32:00But in terms of Empire, what we needed is we needed Luke to be trained by Yoda,

2:32:04and we needed time for Han and Leia to sort of come together in some kind of way.

2:32:12And sort of the downtime in both the asteroid field and on Dagobah provides that story tempo, right?

2:32:21And then after you're done with that, it's, you know, wave your hands and it's on to the

2:32:27next thing.

2:32:28Right.

2:32:29And it also makes sense then that the Empire could have gotten there before they did because

2:32:33they have ships with fully functioning hyper drives and could get there and, you know,

2:32:37work out their dastardly plan.

2:32:39Yeah.

2:32:40I mean, clearly, I mean, well, yeah, what does Lando say?

2:32:41They got there just before you did.

2:32:44So...

2:32:45Oh, does he say that just before?

2:32:46I think it's...

2:32:47Obviously enough before that, you know, Vadius has time to plan a dinner party.

2:32:51So I always thought that was pretty classy.

2:32:55He's totally classy.

2:32:55That was the Bond villainiest moment in Star Wars.

2:33:00Yeah, he was pretty classy the whole time.

2:33:01And I, you know, I think it makes sense to test the carbonite freezing on Han.

2:33:07Why would you not do that?

2:33:10Like, and again, it's like, we don't want the Emperor's prize damage, but even at that

2:33:14point you'd be saying maybe he doesn't want to.

2:33:16Of course he doesn't want to meet a son. I mean even at that point if he's got delusions that it's going to be like father and son the evil duo.

2:33:23Yeah.

2:33:24Yeah.

2:33:24Yeah, either way.

2:33:26Of course he doesn't want to test it. Who would want to test it or not? That's fine.

2:33:29Do you think it's made further uncomfortable? I mean I presume that they did get a meal.

2:33:33I do.

2:33:34They did that in Robot Chicken, I think. The Robot Chicken parody where they play out the rest of that scene where they're awkwardly eating.

2:33:41And like, I didn't see- Oh, I have to put this in the show notes.

2:33:44I think it's Robot Chicken.

2:33:45- It's gotta be.

2:33:46Yeah, so what's Vader doing?

2:33:47He's just sitting there?

2:33:48So...

2:33:49- Well, Vader and Boba Fett both wear masks

2:33:53that they don't take off, right?

2:33:56- Oh yeah, I forget Boba Fett steps in from the side.

2:33:58- They just wanna see other people enjoying their food.

2:34:00- Boba Fett being in that scene is basically

2:34:02just a fuck you to Han Solo at that point.

2:34:04- Yeah, 'cause he just comes out from the side, he's like,

2:34:06- He has no reason to be there other than like,

2:34:08"Heh, I got you."

2:34:09It's just to rub it in.

2:34:11- Oh, I guess he wants the bounty.

2:34:12He's like, you know, that guy's worth a lot to me.

2:34:15Yeah.

2:34:16Like, do you think Vader ate his meals alone

2:34:21in his little meditation chamber?

2:34:23Yeah, it's the only way he could take the helmet off.

2:34:27He ate in front of the big screen, put on some sports.

2:34:30Oh my god, you remember in the prequels

2:34:32when they had like robots playing football,

2:34:34some kind of American style football?

2:34:36Oh, yeah.

2:34:36Yeah.

2:34:37Oh, it's so horrible.

2:34:38Well, in Star Wars Rebels, they bring back that little,

2:34:41whatever it's called, the circular table in the Falcon with a little

2:34:43Yeah.

2:34:44clay animation monsters.

2:34:45Yeah.

2:34:45What is that game called?

2:34:46I don't know.

2:34:47I'm sure there's an idea.

2:34:48I'm cool with that.

2:34:48They pull that back in Rebels.

2:34:49Whatever.

2:34:50But really playing American football, George playing American football is just,

2:34:54come on.

2:34:54What?

2:34:54Or even something vaguely.

2:34:58Yeah, sure.

2:34:58Whatever.

2:34:59I mean, the guy had basically, yeah, they look like a line of blockers and

2:35:02they could, somebody with the football.

2:35:04So.

2:35:04Once you've got a fifties diner, all bets are off.

2:35:07Yeah, I know.

2:35:07God damn.

2:35:09So let's blow through the prequel trilogy.

2:35:12Can we just blow it up instead?

2:35:14Yeah, but to me, among the worst things...

2:35:18Alright, the dialogue is terrible throughout.

2:35:20The character motivations are terrible throughout.

2:35:21The definition of who's the main characters in this movie are terrible throughout.

2:35:27So you get that from the Plinket things, right?

2:35:29I am, yeah. That's the red letter media.

2:35:32I watched them again.

2:35:35I would hardly recommend them except for all of the weird side plot stuff.

2:35:39I don't like the Plinket things.

2:35:41I don't like the characterization of the framing device.

2:35:43I think it's pointless.

2:35:44I think the framing device...

2:35:45And the thing about the no main character, which a lot of people pull away from that,

2:35:50in ensemble movies, it's perfectly fine.

2:35:53Who's the main character in The Usual Suspects, right?

2:35:55Who's the main character in Firefly?

2:35:57It is possible to have, you know, or you can have arguments about,

2:36:01"Mao is the main character in Firefly."

2:36:03Well, is Kevin Spacey the main character in Jules Hoss specs or is it Gabriel Byrne?

2:36:07Like, you know, like ensemble casts are fine. Who's the main character in Oceans 11?

2:36:11Is it George Clooney because he's the most famous and got paid the most?

2:36:14Like ensemble casts are fine. But what he was trying to get at with the

2:36:17who's the main character in The Phantom Menace is that we don't care about any of these people.

2:36:21Right. I totally agree.

2:36:22The main character is like, who do I care about? Who do I identify with?

2:36:26Who should have been Kenobi?

2:36:27Who am I rooting for? And in Phantom Menace, the answer is nobody because they're all just

2:36:31cardboard cut out pieces of crap. The entire prequel should have been Kenobi. And Kenobi's

2:36:35ultimate failure to effectively save Anakin from going to the dark side. You're like,

2:36:42"Who the hell is Qui-Gon? Never heard of him before." And he's pointless. And in fact,

2:36:45Kenobi said he was trained by Yoda, so what... why are we... you know... and I like Liam Neeson.

2:36:53"Well, everybody's trained by Yoda, it's like saying, 'I was taught by a famous professor at

2:36:57at famous school you really weren't really maybe had one class with him but yeah that's it so

2:37:01everyone's always trained by yoda because he's sort of the head of the training hierarchy but

2:37:05anyway like yeah introducing all like every level of the prequels has problems you can get a little

2:37:10picky you and things you can complain about them in the micro level and you can pull all the way

2:37:13back to level i always like to go out and says they just failed in their fundamental tasks explain

2:37:16why and it can turn to the dark side i i think the reason qui-gon exists is because of i well one of

2:37:23One of the reasons is that I feel like Lucas got a bug up his butt to have a parallel to

2:37:27the first one where, you know, there's this great moment where Obi-Wan sacrifices himself

2:37:32and dies and you know, oh my God, this Jedi who was so wise and sage and powerful throughout

2:37:36this movie, all of a sudden he's dead.

2:37:38I didn't expect that.

2:37:39Well, I want that again, but it can't be Obi-Wan because I need Obi-Wan, you know, for the

2:37:43next six movies.

2:37:44And so we'll invent this new guy.

2:37:45And then what happens to Obi-Wan?

2:37:46Well, he gets to sit on a spaceship for 45 minutes.

2:37:49So the one thing I will say about that Obi-Wan thing is that Qui-Gon's death kind of gives

2:37:54him the option, at least, to do what Luke did in Return of the Jedi, where he just goes

2:38:04bananas and really wails on Darth Maul, another character we don't care about.

2:38:09But that doesn't really even happen, as the Plinkett thing points out.

2:38:13Well, he does, but then you don't get...

2:38:15There's no payoff.

2:38:17There's no idea that Obi-Wan is constantly teetering on the edge of the dark side.

2:38:19Yeah, exactly.

2:38:20What you get is more like Qui-Gon is kind of like the problem student who's always a

2:38:26little bit disrespectful and kind of, you know, I don't know, like a little bit of a

2:38:33rebel.

2:38:34But never do you get the idea that Qui-Gon is teetering on the edge of the dark side

2:38:37rather than Obi-Wan.

2:38:38No.

2:38:39It's just that they're kind of like the trouble students.

2:38:43But whereas Luke's whole thing is like, "Yeah, you're teetering on the edge of the dark

2:38:46So when Obi-Wan goes nuts and starts wailing on him, we're not... sad music is not playing.

2:38:51We are rooting for Obi-Wan to win. He does win. There is no, you know,

2:38:55pacifism angle or anything. So I've got two things about that. First of all, I loved...

2:38:58I mean, so visually, that battle was stunning, as contrived as it was. It looked pretty cool.

2:39:06I liked that as those arbitrary doors closed, like laser doors closed, Qui-Gon sat down and

2:39:15and meditated while Darth Maul stalked back and forth.

2:39:19That was nice. I liked it.

2:39:22I liked that after Qui-Gon had been killed, Obi-Wan was like jumping up and down, just

2:39:29ready to go, like he's clearly pissed, right?

2:39:32But you're right, there was no payoff.

2:39:34And worse than there being no payoff, and this is horrible, he ends up in a tactically

2:39:42inferior position.

2:39:43basically fallen halfway down the hall

2:39:44and he's got no lightsaber.

2:39:46And he manages to beat Darth Maul by jumping over him,

2:39:51force grabbing the lightsaber and cutting him in half.

2:39:53- It's the henchman thing, when henchmen in the movies

2:39:56like just get into position in front of the hero

2:39:58and then stand motionless

2:39:59while the hero does some cool move to them.

2:40:00- Exactly, now here's the thing.

2:40:03That is an incredibly inferior position.

2:40:05And at the end of "The Revenge of the Sith,"

2:40:10we see we have Kenobi in a marginally elevated position over Anakin.

2:40:19And they have to speak the lines out because like, I need you to understand that now I

2:40:25have the advantage because I want you to know that the next decision Anakin makes whether

2:40:29the fight or not will be like it's just it doesn't make any sense because we've seen

2:40:33Kenobi beat way crazier odds against a guy that was, you know, arguably,

2:40:38Maul was like, probably one of the better fighters that we've seen, right?

2:40:42So it's, it's just, it's so frustrating.

2:40:45It's all nonsensical.

2:40:46It is nonsensical at every possible level.

2:40:49You go, you go really picky, you're like medium level, like from moment to moment,

2:40:53scene to scene, action to action, motivation to motivation.

2:40:56Like the fight scenes make no sense.

2:40:58The larger stories make no sense.

2:40:59At any level of zoom, you still get the poo emoji.

2:41:03is what... To jump to that Vader... Well, he was Vader, but the Anakin/Obi-Wan's

2:41:10fight in Revenge of the Sith, in that very fight scene, it is... I never

2:41:14thought about it before, how it parallels the Darth Maul/Obi-Wan, you're in a lower

2:41:19position, and he didn't even have a lightsaber in his hand yet. You're right

2:41:21though, that is pretty damning. But even in that one fight scene, in the

2:41:26ebb and flow of one guy having the upper hand, one guy having the lower hand, you

2:41:30know upper hand lower hand you know ebb and flow the fights going back and forth

2:41:33that was so far and away not the worst position one of them in in those guys

2:41:39would come back from so much worse position everyone to go farther level in

2:41:43that in that scene where the two of them fighting you want the fight to not be

2:41:47about the fight yeah I want to be about something else but there's something

2:41:50else it's about is so stupid and you don't care about it at all and you've

2:41:53totally checked out an Anakin as a character for three whole movies you

2:41:56could give a damn about what the like the underlying you didn't even check out

2:41:59You never checked it.

2:42:00You just yeah, right, exactly.

2:42:01But no, it's like if you're going to have a long fight scene,

2:42:05like culminate a trilogy of movies, a long fight scene between

2:42:10two people, you have to have established whatever the underlying

2:42:13issue is to the degree that the attention of the fight scene

2:42:15is not just about the fighting part.

2:42:17But by the time episode three comes along, you're just like,

2:42:19whatever.

2:42:19That's why it just seems like all this drags on so long and

2:42:23it's boring.

2:42:24Who cares?

2:42:24Who cares who win?

2:42:25You know who wins?

2:42:26You know what happens?

2:42:26You don't there's no emotional stakes because you don't care about any of the people and then the mechanics of the fight scene aren't any interesting

2:42:32Phantom Man is I think had a well choreographed fight scene with some interesting things in it

2:42:36That didn't make too much sense. Did you care about the characters?

2:42:41Maybe you kind of cared about obi-wan because you knew he was gonna be Qui-Gon

2:42:44I mean Liam Eason is fairly charismatic and his character was vaguely interesting

2:42:48Darth Maul was a total cipher and was stupid and then they killed him so so much for that. Yeah

2:42:53He was almost like a red shirt. Yeah, he really was just a red

2:42:56It was just like a big mean looking scary guy who's got like two lines and you're only reason you you think he's intimidating is

2:43:02Because like you assume he's a good fighter and you later to see that he is and that he seems scary

2:43:06But I mean Vader had a whole movie to be intimidating before he took out obi-wan

2:43:10Yeah, I'm always like you saw him briefly

2:43:12I feel that that final fight would have almost been better served have just I

2:43:16Don't know like obi-wan kicks down the door and just eviscerates

2:43:21Anakin, like immediately just chops it into pieces.

2:43:23Like, because that's what you need to have happen, right? Like that's...

2:43:26Well, I mean, you need to have the emotional payoff of whatever their supposed conflict is about and whatever is like,

2:43:32"Oh, Anakin, why are you turning up?" But it was just so squandered at that point.

2:43:36Yeah, yeah.

2:43:36It's like, whatever.

2:43:37But I feel like once you've decided, once Kenobi has decided, I think there needs to be a decisive thing.

2:43:44And what happened was not decisive, really, you know?

2:43:47Obi-Wan was supposedly holding back. It's like I really don't want to kill you

2:43:51I can kill you because you're a stupid kid and you didn't take all my lessons and I'm a good fighter

2:43:55I can but I don't want to I'm trying to convince you and talk you down from it eventually

2:43:59I hope the high ground if the next move you make is something he just says to the audience like I'm setting up a scenario

2:44:05Which now this fight is over now

2:44:07and I'm telling you that the decision Anakin makes now will determine whether the fight ends for him and for me and

2:44:12The rash move would be for him. I'm telling him don't do this rash move because I'm in a superior position

2:44:17Even though that makes no sense the context in terrified. I am simply like where it's whatever this description has run out

2:44:23So now yeah, I'm just going to tell you what is going to happen here

2:44:27I can't actually make it happen organically through a story, you know, where things were events unfold and situations arise

2:44:34We can't have that because that'd be too complicated

2:44:35I'm just gonna tell so this is the ending part of a dick move to let your friends slash

2:44:39I thought if you like a brother to burn alive maybe you know put him out of his misery

2:44:45Yeah, no, it doesn't make any sense.

2:44:47Like, do I try to save him?

2:44:48Like, even Batman saves the Joker.

2:44:50I'm gonna take your lightsaber.

2:44:52Yeah, he's gonna give it to Luke.

2:44:54And like, I'm gonna hand you later, and you, it's like,

2:44:56I don't know if we're supposed to believe that you thought,

2:44:57well, he's a goner, or we just let him burn to death,

2:44:59and it's like, it doesn't make any sense.

2:45:01It's horrible.

2:45:02There's no reason it has to play out that way.

2:45:04Right.

2:45:05It's like when you're writing the script,

2:45:07this is the type of thing you think about.

2:45:08Like, you know where you want to go,

2:45:09and you have to have a series of events

2:45:11that leads naturally to the place you want to go.

2:45:12Right. You need to trap--

2:45:13You can't force it. You need to trap your protagonist into a course of action that

2:45:17Needs you down down the path that you've voted for. And nothing was nothing was forcing Obi-Wan to have like an appointment

2:45:24He had to get to. All right. Well, I wouldn't pull you out of the lava

2:45:26But I it's not it's not even that hard to think of something very close where you are

2:45:30You're and and this is one of those things that I don't know if you guys remember but I remember even as a kid

2:45:35that the fan magazines had rumors that if they're ever if they ever made the

2:45:40prequel trilogy that the way that Vader got the way he was and the whole reference to you know, the

2:45:46You know last we met I was but the learner now on the master, you know that these guys knew each other

2:45:50Was that you know?

2:45:52There were rumors all the way back then like 80 81 that it was some kind of lightsaber duel and obi-wan knocked him into lava

2:45:59Yeah, that's what screwed him up

2:46:01Something something Vader, you know obi-wan gave him a ass-kicking and he fell on so just make it an edge

2:46:06You know you're on a cliff or something like a volcano and you he cuts off his arm his lightsaber falls to the ground and he

2:46:12falls into a pit of and he does it's unintentional effectively like

2:46:15If I wanted to do it what I would have I mean you got to have a whole other different three movies in front of

2:46:21This delete on this but what you'd want to have happen is to have them have whatever

2:46:24Underlying issue and have it play out through through a lightsaber thing and have oh

2:46:30basically have Obi-Wan try and fail to save him from the lava thing.

2:46:35Like that it's not like he hit him into the lava then in second thoughts and tried to save them.

2:46:39Like the fight led to a situation in which Anakin was going to fall in the lava and the battle was

2:46:47Obi-Wan trying to save him. Not like Obi-Wan pushed him into the lava in second thoughts.

2:46:50Because then you have...

2:46:51Well, he needs to try to save him both from going to the dark side and from

2:46:55the ultimate physical demise, right?

2:46:57Right. It depends on what you want that want the conflict to be. If you want the conflict to be

2:47:01that can feels like he was betrayed by obi-wan then you could have it be like you know obi-wan

2:47:05trying to show him that he wasn't betrayed if you want the conflict to be something different like a

2:47:08love triangle or some other like i don't know it depends on the conflict how you want it to play

2:47:12out but you've already written a thing where he has to survive and he's all smart and messed up

2:47:16and obi-wan has his saber those things were already set so you have him cut off his hand

2:47:21his sabers there on the ground he falls in the pit and he's gone and you know obi-wan's not nuts

2:47:26He's not jumping down into a lava pit to make sure the guy's dead. He just assumes he's dead and somehow

2:47:31He's still so powerful. He's got the dark side

2:47:33He can keep himself alive in a lava pit even while he's getting all burned up and there you go. You're done

2:47:38Oh, I mean, I think you probably also I would have obi-wan to know that he's still alive and know that he has failed to save

2:47:44him but the you know, like because yeah, that's because I don't be one is hiding on Tatooine so he knows like

2:47:49Who's he hiding Luke from if he thinks Vader?

2:47:51Well, I like the idea of Vader being a thing and then slowly

2:47:55it's

2:47:57You know obi-wan recognizes it like oh my god that that's what happened. I wouldn't be tired of a lot of it

2:48:03Yeah, I know the lava pit is from it's from Lucas. It's from the fan

2:48:06I guess from way back who cares you had a good story

2:48:09That's pretty ham-fisted because it's like first of all Lord of the Rings did it first and see

2:48:12And it's slightly differently the second of all like anything we were established anything that involves like a pratfall or a slapstick or like whoop

2:48:21I lost my balance and fell into this thing. It's like it's such a

2:48:24Ignoble my god, imagine they dropped Anakin into like a so like pit

2:48:28Yeah, someone bumped into him like he was just walking

2:48:31Various walkways that has no railings on it and like they tried to pass each other

2:48:35Real ham screen

2:48:39So the whole the whole prequel trilogy I feel like it's mostly in hindsight it's a

2:48:47Like fanfiction ask trying to write in as many coincidences as possible

2:48:52You know, like you've already mentioned don't say see he don't see 3po made by a boyhood

2:48:57You know Anakin even though he's clearly as we've seen through all of the movies like right off the assembly line

2:49:06He's right off the assembly line. There's like other

2:49:09Protocol droids who look exactly like him Anakin was not a very imaginative child

2:49:13They just made one looks exactly like the ones you maybe had like a radio

2:49:15shack, something, you know, it's like a kid.

2:49:18But somehow he didn't have the outer shell for him.

2:49:22Uh, you know, to Django fat, uh, we all we've killed Boba fat and he was a

2:49:27bad-ass, so we can't still have him around, but we'll just put his father in.

2:49:31And then we'll say that he's, Oh, also that cool fat guy.

2:49:34He's the, the, the parent of all the clones.

2:49:37He's the template clone zero.

2:49:39That's horrible.

2:49:41It seems like you're getting away from that and then well who knows but

2:49:45I I don't even you could list them forever

2:49:49I'd say flaw number two is turning the Jedi from these like

2:49:54martial artists who are masters of subtlety to

2:49:58Superheroes, right? Like it just suddenly jumped from you know, like these guys who specialize mostly in like going unnoticed

2:50:07I mean, that's what obi-wan does in like to shut down the reactor beam. It's it's awesome

2:50:11It's so cool in the first movie the way obi-wan is this lone old how he deals with the sand people, too

2:50:16He just makes a crazy noise. Anyway, he doesn't go slice and dice them

2:50:19He just you know, right and there's this totally cool scene

2:50:23you know super cool scene where there's the two stormtroopers by the the the

2:50:28Tractor beam control and you know, it's like have you seen the new tk-421?

2:50:31It's pretty I heard it's quite a thing to see your memory of Star Wars lines is quite a mishman

2:50:37- The one that is Han Solo.

2:50:39Yeah, whatever the model name is.

2:50:42What's the model name of the Skyjumper

2:50:44that he's talking about?

2:50:45- Syracuse.

2:50:46- Whatever, it's like, have you seen the new Camaro?

2:50:48- Yeah, exactly.

2:50:49- It's just a cool scene and it's a nice little,

2:50:52it's like George Lucas when he made films for humans,

2:50:54it's like, well, you know what,

2:50:55that's probably what stormtroopers would talk about,

2:50:57you know, cool spaceships and stuff like that.

2:51:00But then all he does is make like a little noise,

2:51:02like, you know, they hear something over there.

2:51:04They turn their heads and boom, he's gone.

2:51:07Perfect. That's what the Jedi's did. And then whole trilogy, it's established that they're like Marvel superheroes.

2:51:13Well, and you know, growing up that that line of like, you know, I fought in the Clone Wars with your father. I never thought of it like they were generals or anything. I just thought that they fought together and they happened to be

2:51:31General Kenobi.

2:51:33Oh, sorry. Yeah, I did. But I didn't think that they were

2:51:36commanders of troops. No, no, no, no, I didn't think that they

2:51:40were outside of the weird general command structure,

2:51:45right? I just thought that they were Jedi that happened to be

2:51:48part of the army.

2:51:49Ah, I see.

2:51:51Like, yeah, it's not a Jedi. That's not a problem. You can

2:51:55have, you know, but the prequel certainly sort of preclude that

2:51:59possibility. But like,

2:52:00- Yeah, when I was a kid, when I thought of them,

2:52:02you fought fighting in the Clone Wars,

2:52:04what I pictured was them fighting in the way

2:52:06that Luke was aspiring to fight

2:52:07and that they were pilots of, you know,

2:52:10X-Wings or whatever, and they were shooting things

2:52:12with guns and flying X-Wings around,

2:52:14and the fact that they happened to have the force

2:52:15maybe gave them a little bit better piloting skills,

2:52:17but in general, that's how they were operating

2:52:19within the missionary of the war as young men,

2:52:21is that you fought in the Clone Wars

2:52:22as a warrior of the type Luke was in that movie.

2:52:25- That's exactly it, yeah.

2:52:26And maybe you pull out a blast and you blast some people,

2:52:28but when you need to get the honor thing going,

2:52:31you can pull out your lightsaber and do it.

2:52:32- Not that they were a bunch of priests in robes

2:52:34running around and that there was some,

2:52:35I mean, that was the problem with the prequels is that,

2:52:37you know, if you're gonna do that timeline

2:52:40and you're gonna make Jedis normal

2:52:43and you're gonna have a lot of them,

2:52:44they're no longer special and you have to embrace that

2:52:48to a degree that the prequels

2:52:50didn't feel comfortable embracing.

2:52:51Like, it's as if you had a movie in which

2:52:54one person had a gun and it was a big special thing.

2:52:58You know like that Stephen King the guns the gunslinger series guns are a rarity or whatever and then you do prequels to them

2:53:03Where everybody has guns if you're gonna do everybody has guns you have to do it like Saving Private Ryan

2:53:08I know where guns are not part of the story at all

2:53:09It's just normal and you move on from it very quickly on to whatever the actual story is

2:53:13The story is not can you believe all these guys have guns, right? Yeah now we know they all have like it's normal

2:53:19You have to have another story there. That's the story of that

2:53:22You know a dramatic thing happening in war or whatever. So you're gonna have a million Jedi running around

2:53:26The Jedi can't be that special and you have to have another story

2:53:29That takes place and people just happen to have lightsabers in the same way that people happen to have

2:53:33I completely agree and one thing that I always liked about Star Wars that I feel has been sort of betrayed over the years

2:53:40Is something that sets it apart from Star Trek and in Star Trek each alien species

2:53:47They call them races each alien race

2:53:50has a prescribed set of

2:53:55Sort of values and a cultural aspect to it like Klingons are warriors. The Ferengi are traitors like the humans are

2:54:03Vaguely fleshed out the Romulans are duplicitous. The Vulcans are logical and

2:54:08I always thought and I think it stems from the from the cantina scene in Star Wars that

2:54:14these are just a bunch of people hanging out or aliens like it's

2:54:18You can have Greedo can be an asshole

2:54:21But that doesn't mean that everybody looks like Greedo is gonna be a bounty hunter out to kill people

2:54:26Well, you've got the huts that are all gangsters supposedly, but not in the movies

2:54:30I'm Lee but it's not in the movies that they don't say it is Java the hut. That's all you hear about

2:54:34Well, no, but I did mention that the huts run the show sure

2:54:38But I mean that could be I mean maybe the hut is as far as I know that's their family's family name

2:54:44I don't know. Yeah, exactly

2:54:46Maybe it's just an end but that's what I mean about it

2:54:48It's been slowly betrayed over the years of this notion of like

2:54:51this group or you know, or this this alien species acts in this way and

2:54:56There is a nice touch like that

2:54:59It would Star Wars

2:55:00You know if we're going to be be nice and say nice things about the prequels in the in phantom menace one of Anakin's

2:55:06Childhood friends is a yes

2:55:09Except I think he's greedy. I think he's actually greedy. Well, oh you do

2:55:14I really do. Oh

2:55:17Yeah, I appreciate your notice. Yeah the Jedi Council. Oh my god. No, that's green. Oh, yeah

2:55:24That's hard. I'll go check

2:55:27I tried to forget that it's it's Warwick Davis anyway. It's Warwick Davis. Oh, yeah, I think they call him Peter

2:55:32But the the Jedi Council and Phantom Menace though is the kind of the United College of Benetton with it like anyone can be in

2:55:38Jedi so they think every single Star Wars race they try to throw in one of them including whatever Yoda is because they've

2:55:43So wait, one thing, oh man, I'm just I'm gonna use this just to air all of my Star Wars grievances out

2:55:50Yoda should not have a lightsaber. I never thought I was eight years old when I was like, no

2:55:56There's no way Yoda should have a lightsaber, whenever it came out

2:55:59I would not have done that

2:56:01Yoda is just a, I remember being a kid before Jedi came out

2:56:06Oh, no

2:56:07It was after Jedi trying to figure out if Yoda could beat the Emperor and it was always like well

2:56:13Well, Yoda's too good for that shit.

2:56:16He doesn't fight.

2:56:18He's beyond that kind of level.

2:56:21It doesn't matter to him.

2:56:23He definitely does not pull out a lightsaber and try to cut people in pieces.

2:56:26I couldn't agree more.

2:56:28I was so proud of what Jonas and I were talking about.

2:56:31I've been really on a Star Wars kick lady.

2:56:33I was so proud of him.

2:56:34He said that Jonas came up with the same thing.

2:56:36He thought Yoda shouldn't have had a lightsaber because in the first trilogy, the Emperor

2:56:41didn't have a lightsaber.

2:56:42And wouldn't that be cool if like the top dark side guy is so powerful he doesn't need a lightsaber and the top

2:56:47Lightside guy that's like that's for kids. I want elegant. Yeah like an elegant. What is it an elegant weapon for a more civilized age?

2:56:55They don't need weapons. They're there and then sex secondarily even if you're gonna say, okay, he does have a lightsaber

2:57:02He shouldn't fight like a pinball miss

2:57:04Bouncing around a machine once you're gonna have him try to fight with a lightsaber

2:57:10That's really his only viable strategies to be a little chasm eating devil whirling dervish because otherwise

2:57:16I like people had to bend down to even like so should I swing at you down there somehow?

2:57:21He should be so powerful if he does have a lightsaber that it's like it would be like his his battles would be like that

2:57:27The the first battle between obi-wan and very slow very simple and it's like he's just he's he's one step ahead of you

2:57:35I was too small. I can just cut your ankles off

2:57:37I mean like it's a mistake to give him a lightsaber if you do give them one that you go with the the

2:57:41Anime cliche that they also do in samurai movies where it's like two motionless people standing facing each other

2:57:47Then there's some flash of action and then one guy falls apart because he's been sliced in half. Yeah

2:57:51You know the Emperor didn't have one Yoda doesn't need one the end the frenetic pace of his lightsaber battling

2:58:01It's just it just reeks to me of like they they were so hobbled when he was a practical effect

2:58:08By the limits of puppetry and it's like so hard to make him even like walk right and they had like seven puppeteers

2:58:15Working Yoda simultaneously so that his eyes could move while his mouth moved and it's a fascinating

2:58:21You know backstory of how they made that Yoda puppet as realistic as they did and clearly they had trouble making him eat soup

2:58:28The first one and make him believable and then all of a sudden they come to George Lucas and they're like well as a computer

2:58:35Generated effect he can do a triple somersault right over Count Dooku's head. I think it was led the other way

2:58:41I think Lucas wanted to see him fight with lightsaber. Yeah, I agree. I agree

2:58:44Yeah, I yeah, I blame George Lucas entirely that it was like but like these front

2:58:49You know that he saw no beauty in in the economy of the limits of Yoda as a practical

2:58:54No, it doesn't.

2:58:56Or even like the whole philosophy of the force as expressed in Empire, which is Lucas's least

2:59:00favorite movie.

2:59:01Wait, is it really?

2:59:02Is that, is he on record saying that?

2:59:05Yes.

2:59:06Oh, God.

2:59:07Are you surprised?

2:59:09No, I just hadn't heard that.

2:59:11I mean, now I'm in, like, I still hold a grudge against Stephen King because he doesn't like

2:59:16The Shining.

2:59:18That is explicable because it's not that I don't think he doesn't like The Shining, it's

2:59:22That the shining is so different from the book. He's like this is not an adaptation my book

2:59:27I think my book is good and this movie is a different movie

2:59:29I think he would admit that the shining is a good movie, but he would say it's a

2:59:32Vaguely, no, actually he's said that it's a bad movie

2:59:36But because he doesn't think it under see though he's he's a fan of like typical horror movies like he likes darkness

2:59:41He likes surprises. He's

2:59:43Appreciated psychological horror - it's just that it's it is it doesn't capture anything about his book that he feels like there was value in

2:59:50My book and this movie captures none of it, which is true. It captures different value that is not in the book

2:59:54Yeah, you know well actually we know the answer

2:59:57Have you guys ever seen his shining miniseries for ABC which starred the guy from no because I was angry at him

3:00:04the guy from the guy from

3:00:06You can see what he you can we see we know what Stephen King thinks is a good film

3:00:12I did see I think it's I don't know if you know that was good, but at least it's faith more faithful to the book

3:00:18Well, I know he likes the Pet Sematary movie, and that tells me everything that I need to know about his...

3:00:25It's basically like... Kubrick's The Shining is based on the book in the same way that Blade Runner is based on Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep.

3:00:33That's basically the connection.

3:00:34Yeah.

3:00:35Yeah. Source intro.

3:00:36And it's good. Anyway, whatever. I don't want to diverge into that. But...

3:00:39How do we get there? Anyway, yeah, so no, I'm not...

3:00:44Jedi is a superpower.

3:00:46not surprised but I am depressed that Lucas dislikes Empire Strikes Back or

3:00:52it's his least favorite one. That boggles my mind.

3:00:56It didn't turn out the way, like that's the reason he started to take

3:01:00over a little bit more control in Jedi and in total control in the prequels is

3:01:04that he was distracted by you know building his empire and like the

3:01:07success of Star Wars or whatever that he basically had to outsource and he didn't

3:01:11want to direct another movie because it was so exhausting to do Star Wars. You

3:01:13You should read the book. It's JW Rinsler.

3:01:16They're huge hardcovers. One for New Hope, one for Empire, one for Jedi.

3:01:20They're beautiful giant hardcover books. You can also get ebook versions.

3:01:23And they are long and there's tons of stuff in them about the making of all these movies.

3:01:28I didn't buy the Jedi one. I have the first two.

3:01:34You gotta buy the Jedi one. You gotta have the complete set.

3:01:37Yeah. At this point I'll probably have to pay extra.

3:01:39do it really cool. I mean, as annoying as the Ewoks are that the integration of the

3:01:45stop motion animation of the scout walkers into the forest scenes is bananas.

3:01:50Joe, that was like the top, the highest level, the peak of a bunch of model

3:01:56spaceships coming out. Because after that it was like all going to be CG. And so it's like, this is, you know, the most money, the most experience, the people who know how to do it best, doing the kind of battles that they could have only dreamt of in A New Hope.

3:02:07And then after that, it was basically like, and no one will ever top that

3:02:10because everything else after that will be CG.

3:02:12That's space.

3:02:13Fine.

3:02:13CG is good, but it's a different kind of space and no one is ever going to do it.

3:02:16That space battle blew my mind.

3:02:17Like the, you see it from the front of the cockpit of the Falcon, like just

3:02:22that swarm of firefighters coming at you.

3:02:23Yeah.

3:02:24Or even just the thing where they, they, you know, flip over to go into the little

3:02:27tunnel into the Death Star, like the motion control camera moves to, you know,

3:02:31point this out on any camera as well.

3:02:33Like that they didn't just do the straightforward, easiest things they

3:02:36wanted to, which is why it's great in the Force Awakens trailer, the ridiculous

3:02:40camera moves and tracing the Falcon around, that's part of the Star Wars

3:02:45aesthetic is that, unlike for example Star Trek where the ships kind of fight

3:02:48like naval things where they're kind of moving in different directions.

3:02:50Which is cool too, but it's not the same thing.

3:02:52Right, but it's a whole different thing, but in Star Wars it's like everybody flies fancy.

3:02:57Like everyone does everything like the hard way, it looks cool, because it looks

3:03:00cool basically. There's no other reason, like why do you have to spiral and twist around

3:03:03you go into the star why does the camera fall because it looks exciting dramatic

3:03:07and yeah like the way that han parks in the

3:03:09yeah yeah he flies over his parking spot and then

3:03:13like doesn't he million like right down into it

3:03:16yeah because he's got style yeah he's got like you you just know that his

3:03:20signature yeah he does not fly casual yeah and and

3:03:24like the the fact that you you know if you think about how the motion control

3:03:27with all these models was done for jedi that you know everything all shot

3:03:30separately or whatever the way that space battle was choreographed with the

3:03:33the different things that happen in it and so that you get coherent action.

3:03:36It's just, I mean, it's easier to do it in CG because you can plan the

3:03:40whole thing out and you can put the camera that you want in the scene.

3:03:43With models, you got to shoot an individual model doing its thing and then

3:03:48knowing you put them all together, it's going to make one coherent scene.

3:03:50And if they don't, it's not like you can move the camera to a different

3:03:52position and try it from here.

3:03:53Like, yeah, it takes ages.

3:03:55Yeah.

3:03:55Much more.

3:03:56You get it.

3:03:56You get a sense of spatiality that, that it just, you could do in CGI.

3:04:01You can tell they've got weight.

3:04:02You know, I don't know how to describe it.

3:04:04Well, and the thing is they had, you don't realize it, but you like go, if you go back on with the stopwatch and see at how much time during this space battle scene are models on the screen.

3:04:13And it's incredibly small amount of time because it was so expensive and time consuming to do.

3:04:17Spent a lot of time seeing people's faces and cockpits and stuff like that.

3:04:21And the trick is, how do I make a coherent battle scene where I can only show the models for a total of like 10 percent of the of the battle time because it's just so damn expensive.

3:04:30And so every camera every shot of models has to be like in this scene. There's like three storyboards

3:04:36We have to see big ship big ship move this way

3:04:39Death Star fire ships scatter and the message is getting across here is the Death Star is active

3:04:44It's shot a ship ships are scattered is the lame Falcon this scene? Yes

3:04:47No

3:04:47like and you get like

3:04:49three seconds of screen time to convey an entire movement of the thing and then a more a bunch of people's faces and talking and

3:04:55stuff and then you get

3:04:55Three more seconds of ships moving and what happened between that one shot of ships moving the other one

3:05:00It's communicated by the people talking by the interior shots by al-mahab are yelling or whatever, but it's still all weaves together

3:05:06Yeah, it's a good. Yeah, we're to

3:05:09Exactly. Yeah, don't show the show you make it do with what you have

3:05:13Yeah, you make do with what you have and you say how do I how do I make this coherent?

3:05:17When I know that I can only show the ships flying around the screen for fraction a second you make every one of the seconds

3:05:23Versus like you know episode three

3:05:25Flying everywhere. I mean whatever so that brings me to my man

3:05:30I'm basically just using you as my Star Wars therapy at this point

3:05:34The battle at the end of a new hope to take out this house death star is brilliant

3:05:40You can tell what's happening like the you know the rebel ships are holding pattern somewhere above the death star

3:05:46And they keep going on trench runs and effectively getting cut down by TIE fighters

3:05:51So basic it's great and there's and and there's a map in the rebel base that shows how close the

3:05:57Makes no sense if you think about it for three seconds is like we can go all across the galaxy

3:06:03But the last ten meters we have to do in dramatic

3:06:05but well, whatever let's buy it for artistic license and the same thing with like the

3:06:09In broad strokes a very large space station, which they were the gravitational

3:06:16fighters

3:06:18Well, they weren't careful that you know

3:06:20It wasn't designed for a tech for an attack like this and this kind of attack is the only attack the rebels have it's a typical

3:06:25underdog type story

3:06:26We're gonna attack with a small number of people we're gonna go through this little exhaust port with the never thought like

3:06:30It sure less works in broad strokes

3:06:33But the most important thing is like you said once you've established that stuff even if it's yeah

3:06:37Nonsensical the idea that there's a trench. There's a target. We've told you what it is

3:06:41We're gonna make a bunch of runs at it and it's gonna look cool because trenches are cool because the walls are close to you

3:06:46So this is right exactly so this is my argument

3:06:48It's about the battles as portrayed in in over the Star Wars movies that battle makes sense

3:06:53Granted you know your Death Star has a dumb design, and you know did everything that you know stipulate to everything that John just said

3:07:02the

3:07:04The Battle of Hoth makes perfect sense kind of I don't know how jumping out of with the hand waving of like why can't we?

3:07:11Just bring these things down. Yeah, well as a shield and like perimeter

3:07:14We have to fly, we have to land far away.

3:07:16Like whatever, but whatever.

3:07:18Yeah, and you eat like, why do the walkers have to walk through the place?

3:07:20Yeah, yeah, yeah.

3:07:21Why can't they just come?

3:07:22Suffice to say, they have to walk and that's fine.

3:07:25And the rebels are fighting a holding action.

3:07:27They have no illusion that they're going to win.

3:07:29But they're fighting a holding action.

3:07:31Mostly ineffective.

3:07:33But they stay in their trench and they start blasting at stuff.

3:07:35Good.

3:07:36The kind of crazy Ewok attack.

3:07:40Kind of crazy.

3:07:41A little bit of the insurgency thing.

3:07:43I think it would work if those guys were just Wookiees. I think that would just work

3:07:47Because you could picture a Wookiee hitting somebody over the head with a stone and it would you know, you'd be laid down

3:07:53Yeah, and like in the way that in the first movie the Empire had overlooked the possibility of what are they called snub fighters?

3:08:00Being something to worry about you can say

3:08:02Whatever they call them

3:08:08that the Empire sort of

3:08:10There's an implicit racism to the Empire because everybody in the Empire is exactly you could see them overlooking force of Wookiees is being something

3:08:17That's like that and and really if they had a bigger budget or like more like if they had CG basically

3:08:23They what they may not realize that many occupying forces don't realize that you are vastly outnumbered by the yeah

3:08:29And you know, it doesn't matter how much technology

3:08:31Is being used as slaves and then like overthrow that there's way more interesting things you could have done with that movie

3:08:37Anyway, they didn't. But that said, at least that battle makes sense. And certainly the

3:08:42space engagement makes a lot of sense. Because the rebels get totally...

3:08:47I mean, it's a trap. It's a trap. And it works.

3:08:50- It's a good play, because they have a plan, they execute on their plan. Their plan does not

3:08:54go as planned because the Emperor knew about it. That's a typical, you know, in any type of war

3:08:59type scenario where you do have a plan. For the battle seemed to be dramatic, you can't simply

3:09:04execute your plan and then when in the end you have to have you know oh things are going badly

3:09:08we thought this was going to be our plan but it turns out the Death Star is active and oh here's

3:09:11the entire uh Empire's fleet and we have a serious problem here. And the a trap between the Imperial

3:09:16fleet and an entirely operational Death Star. Not a good place to be. All of these battles make sense

3:09:23but let's go to the prequels. Totally. Well I would say this just let me say before we go to the prequels

3:09:29Let me say this that in their first trilogy. Let's say it takes place over roughly six years

3:09:34Which is what the movies took place, you know in real life to make them takes place over six years

3:09:38the the three movies spend an inordinate number most of their time on the most

3:09:43Interesting things that happened in the whole galaxy in those six years the space battles that took place were monumentally important like historically

3:09:52And the personal scenes are about the most important people in the galaxy at that time

3:09:58Right now go to the original trilogy which takes place over like more than six and three cool

3:10:05What is it? Yeah, it's like 20 something what?

3:10:08Like seven and then he's like ten years ten years maybe a little

3:10:16At the beginning of it there's a gap there's a galactic Senate and

3:10:23There's a Jedi Order that seems to order, you know number in like the thousands and by the end of it

3:10:29The entire Jedi Order is wiped out and the Republic is replaced by an empire

3:10:33they spend like a

3:10:36grand total of like two and a half minutes on screen showing the Jedi Order being wiped out and

3:10:42You know the Emperor just says he's the Emperor

3:10:45So they they just the the most interesting things that you would think they would show over the trilogy

3:10:51They cover in about two and a half minutes.

3:10:53They don't know what they're doing.

3:10:54So, OK.

3:10:55The battle in Phantom Menace won the

3:10:59OK, the Gungans, the Gungans versus the droids.

3:11:03Boring because you're fighting on a flat plane.

3:11:07But what if you got the shields and it's kind of cool in a weird

3:11:10Roman phalanx kind of way?

3:11:12Until. Whatever.

3:11:14Until it falls apart and...

3:11:16The slapstick.

3:11:18Yeah, exactly.

3:11:19They're throwing big, glowy purple balls at each other.

3:11:22Yeah, like it starts out kind of cool when they start deploying the army.

3:11:25It's like, I don't know why you'd fight in a flat field,

3:11:27given this kind of level of attack and whatever.

3:11:30They're fighting on the window of XP. Exactly. Exactly.

3:11:33And the and, you know, the idea that they're fighting droids that,

3:11:37you know, if their control ship goes off their head.

3:11:40Yeah, it doesn't make sense.

3:11:41So the space battle is inane, completely inane.

3:11:44They're going after what the control ship and it's stupid.

3:11:49And Anakin gets lucky, like he doesn't even get smart.

3:11:52He just, it's horrible.

3:11:54So that can't touch, and even can't even touch the Ewok battle.

3:11:59Like it's it's night and day worse than that.

3:12:02You care more about the Ewoks than you do about any of the Gungans or anybody.

3:12:05Of course you do.

3:12:06Yeah, the Ewoks have that touching moment

3:12:08where the guy in the glider gets shot down and the other Ewoks like...

3:12:11And you'd establish them as characters of like capturing them

3:12:14and bringing them back and discussing them, being convinced by, you know, C3PO

3:12:18that he's a god and I think it works in their favor that you can't understand

3:12:22what they're saying because yeah well and there was the one guy who got it

3:12:26there's like an explosion that goes off in the one ewok yes he rubs the other

3:12:31one yeah yeah it's getting it's getting at least there's some sense that there

3:12:40are serious yeah and you killed one of the cutest things on screen that's you

3:12:43know that's something um in the second one we have the inane yeah we have the

3:12:51beginning of the Clone Wars whatever I don't want to talk about that because

3:12:55none of it makes sense what they did how did all those Jedi's just walk in there

3:13:00I don't know who knows why would you I'm not a really tactical savvy guy but if I

3:13:08was 500 Jedi's I would not walk into the middle of an arena if you everything

3:13:13can just shoot me.

3:13:14- It's like they so wanted to have a, you know,

3:13:16Roman Colosseum, good guys versus the lions type of thing.

3:13:19- Yeah. - It's alien lions

3:13:21and exciting you just have it in this big stadium.

3:13:23- Yeah. - And like.

3:13:25- The only cool thing about that is that

3:13:28Vietnam era helicopter gunship coming in

3:13:31with all the stormtroopers, the clone troopers,

3:13:34basically shooting all the bad guys

3:13:36and kind of trying to dust,

3:13:37like trying to extract the surviving animals.

3:13:40That's the only thing.

3:13:41- It's the same problem as the first battles.

3:13:42like I don't care about either side of these battles like I vaguely know that the good guys

3:13:48are the guy with Yoda and I know they want to do like the well the good guys are using stormtroopers

3:13:52isn't that weird but you don't care it's just a bunch of things it's like it's like uh what do

3:13:58you call it man of steel just people banging against each other but it's more than that

3:14:01whatever I guess though but it's more than that they get tactically stupider as the movies go on

3:14:07So as soon as they dust off, they land and the Jedis end up taking squads of stormtroopers.

3:14:14And the stormtroopers, the clone troopers, are a finite resource. They've been cloned over, what,

3:14:2010 years against an advancing droid army. And what do they do? They just run at them.

3:14:27They just run at them. Like, flat out run at a bunch of robots that we've seen,

3:14:33A factory pumping them out by the hundreds.

3:14:35Like, it's the dumbest thing ever.

3:14:40It's the whole...

3:14:41This is a George Lucas-ism in the entire movies.

3:14:44The idea, and everybody succumbs to this, especially older people, but the idea that

3:14:48the, well, not everybody, I mean, James Cameron has it, the idea that the Droid Army is obviously

3:14:54going to be inferior to even clones because living things are so much smarter than droids

3:14:58and droids are so dumb.

3:14:59Yeah, but living things are smarter because they will duck and take cover and shoot at

3:15:01the dumb ass robots.

3:15:03Well, but that's the idea.

3:15:04There's so many droids in the droid armies,

3:15:06even the Gunkins can defeat them.

3:15:07And when it's the clones versus the droids,

3:15:09even though there's a factory turning them out,

3:15:10obviously the living thing is going to win.

3:15:12And I think the much more likely and reasonable scenario

3:15:15is the Terminator one.

3:15:16It's like, no, the machines win

3:15:17because they're really good at killing them.

3:15:18Yes, that would be my...

3:15:19It's like, at least take cover.

3:15:20That's why the living thing wins

3:15:22because it's got a sense of self-preservation, effectively.

3:15:25And here's where we get to where I want to just

3:15:30murder every Wookiee I see. I don't see a lot, so that's okay. Yoda is on Kashyyyk, the Wookiee

3:15:39homeworld, in the third movie, and the Droid Army is coming. And for whatever reason, the Droid Army

3:15:46has decided to cross a lake or a river or whatever it is and land on a beach. And the beach is covered

3:15:55on two sides by elevated cliffs. And on the top of the cliffs are a bunch of clones with

3:16:00machine guns or whatever the hell it is like blasters. And on a trench on the beach are

3:16:08a whole bunch of Wookiees with all of their bowcasters and their badass stuff.

3:16:13And then the droids start coming and as they get onto the beach,

3:16:17the Wookiees in the trench, what do you think they do?

3:16:23They jump up out of the trench and run at the droids in the water.

3:16:29You're in a trench.

3:16:31Shoot the robots.

3:16:32Why would you jump out of the trench?

3:16:34It's horrible.

3:16:37It's the most revolting...

3:16:43Not revolting, but it's...

3:16:44Like, we've gone from a completely understandable, really complicated scenario

3:16:49of assaulting a Death Star with multiple fighter squadrons

3:16:52into such a simple scenario where it's like these living things should probably not jump out of cover.

3:16:58Why would why did you bother building the trench?

3:17:00I've often said about like the Roger Morier Bond movies that he he gets you know like when he gets

3:17:07captured and is you know facing seeming certain death he doesn't even seem perturbed he's not

3:17:12worried he's not sweaty and he it's like he acts as though he's a character who's read the rest

3:17:17of the script and knows knows he's getting out of it like it's like the Wookiees knew like well we

3:17:21We read that we don't get shot, so we'll just run right at the point.

3:17:25So they didn't have good analogs for the...

3:17:27Because the other movies had analogs for you.

3:17:29World War II dogfights.

3:17:30Or like we just said, in Star Trek you had naval battles.

3:17:33- Sure. - Or samurai swordfights.

3:17:35So you have analogs, right?

3:17:36And so the obvious analog for infantry,

3:17:39there's plenty of analogs for them,

3:17:40depending on what you want to do,

3:17:41they just chose not to do any of them.

3:17:42So one analog is like the Lord of the Rings thing,

3:17:44where you can do a medieval formation type of, you know...

3:17:47Which they kind of did in Fatimidus, right?

3:17:49of all the Lord of the Ring movies,

3:17:52including the Hobbit ones and everything,

3:17:53they did a reasonable job of saying,

3:17:55here is something that looks vaguely like

3:17:57a maneuver that might've been done

3:17:58by large standing armies with medieval weapons.

3:18:00Whatever they may be, protective patterns with shields,

3:18:03the use of your bowmen and the use of cavalry

3:18:07and mounted things, stuff like that.

3:18:08And there's plenty of analogs to choose from

3:18:10in Star Wars I, they do have trenches,

3:18:13like they were doing that, they did it on the hot scene,

3:18:15it's just that they're like, at a certain point,

3:18:17they're like, okay, here's a setup,

3:18:18But rather than trying to sort of model footage from similar large infantry battles, we'll just do whatever seems the most dramatic.

3:18:27And wookiees leaping from the barricades seems dramatic.

3:18:30It's bananas.

3:18:32My complaint with that is that I didn't know any of those wookiees.

3:18:36I didn't care whether they won.

3:18:37I didn't care about it.

3:18:38I don't care about anything that's going on there.

3:18:40It's just like, I have more investment in video game.

3:18:43I think, yes, exactly.

3:18:45I think you might have had they acted in any kind of way that made any kind of sense at

3:18:49all.

3:18:50I think there's probably characters or at least, I was about to say NPCs, but whatever,

3:18:58extras in Empire Strikes Back that you are more interested in than any of those Wookiees.

3:19:04Like, you know, the guy that presses the remote control button that fires that cannon at the

3:19:09AT-AT leg in Empire Strikes Back?

3:19:13Yeah, but that was, yeah, but see the thing is that was a battle that was happening around our heroes who we care about.

3:19:19This thing that the prequels do, that they add at the end of Jedi as well, is...

3:19:23It's pointless.

3:19:24A survey of conflicts happening across the galaxy not involving anybody you care about.

3:19:29It's like they needed to express the idea of "we've given this order, and everywhere on every planet, any Jedi out there are being killed."

3:19:36And so it's like a survey of like, "on this planet, these people are fighting. On this planet, these people are fighting. On this planet..."

3:19:41And that does not make a movie that doesn't even make a good documentary Ken Burns

3:19:44like you have to you have to have investment in the conflict and

3:19:49You can briefly show that maybe something else is going on elsewhere

3:19:51Like they do this in disaster movies like in the beginning they showed that the the crumbling of civilization

3:19:56But that's just like a brief aside to the main story

3:20:00It can't be the cut your climax can't be a survey of battles happening on other planets

3:20:04just suffice it to say the good guys the bad guys are fighting people everywhere and we will tell through music cues or whatever which

3:20:09I don't care is anybody here that I care about where are my heroes do I care about any of these movies?

3:20:15like imagine if the first and only time we meet Sonny and the Godfather is two minutes before he

3:20:22Rashley leaves and you know goes through the hole they would just show all the death scenes

3:20:27They wouldn't show the movie for and they'd be like guys killed that guy that guy killed in a revolving door

3:20:31This guy got killed at a toll booth

3:20:33It's like yeah

3:20:33Oh and we we care about sunny in the tollbooth because we've seen him in two hours and we've seen him before

3:20:39act out of bad temper and

3:20:42You know

3:20:44We don't want to be he's kind of a bad guy, but we still kind of like him, you know, and it's you know

3:20:48It's like the culmination of Michael's plan is all those people dying. It's because we realize it's the culmination of plan

3:20:54We know who those people are we you know

3:20:56And and we understand how he is coordinated all this to happen when he is he is in someplace that is essentially untouchable

3:21:02while it's going on and by the time he gets out it's all settled.

3:21:04Right. He spent the entire three movies showing the wrong stuff and developing the wrong stuff

3:21:11and then just rushed through with and therefore with no emotional impact whatsoever these characters

3:21:18who should have been developed. We had three whole movies where they could have developed,

3:21:21let's just say six Jedi, six different Jedi who in the course of three movies could have been made

3:21:28into real characters with varying flaws and personalities and then they die at

3:21:33the or you just show like even if you didn't that or you just show whatever is

3:21:37happening to the characters that we supposedly care about and have them have

3:21:42them establish to be I care about the Jedi and have them here that the Jedi

3:21:46are dying elsewhere you don't need to show them because if I care about them

3:21:49like you can have heroes in situations where they find out that bad things are

3:21:53happening elsewhere but you don't need to show the bad things right happening

3:21:56You can just show that my main characters care about this therefore I care about it, but it's not so important

3:22:00So how do we how do we feel about the execution of order 66 because I thought that was actually one of the most effective

3:22:06I

3:22:07You know, I feel like there should have been a musical

3:22:10You know like

3:22:14What do they call them like it's not a segue like a

3:22:18Motif like yeah, I keep thinking about goodfellas when when he's trying to get the cocaine all sort of that

3:22:24You could sell any of that, but you have to have...

3:22:30If you have a better movie leading up to it, how you communicate that a coordinated attack is taking place with essentially brainwashed clones who are always...

3:22:41It's like the Manchurian candidate, like "oh, trigger this" and they all just do this order, they all know this order, and when the order comes they kill all the Jedi.

3:22:47Fine, you can do that in lots of different ways, but you need to show the people who

3:22:54care about that.

3:22:55We care about these people, and these people care that all the Jedi are being killed.

3:22:58That's what you need to focus on.

3:22:59But it did kind of work.

3:23:00It was ham-fisted, but we had seen many of those Jedi do stuff.

3:23:07Or at least being in the background.

3:23:08Right?

3:23:09Yeah.

3:23:10They didn't have many lines, they sat around a table, they smiled, they helped out in some

3:23:13other movies, and now they're getting gunned down.

3:23:15they played sad music, but it's just like yeah, it

3:23:18Yeah, it doesn't matter something good

3:23:20At that point you either earned it or you're having and they did yeah

3:23:24Yeah

3:23:25Which which brings us to the end of of that movie and it's the whole end of the whole trilogy

3:23:31And it's the whole reason that the truth that prequel trilogy was even made which was to set up

3:23:35the middle trilogy which was already established and it had to therefore had to

3:23:41Leave us in a certain place and had to explain certain things

3:23:45The whole point of it. This is the whole point

3:23:47This is the only reason that the prequel trilogy was even made or written and it makes no goddamn sense whatsoever

3:23:54So let's just say let's just give it up that all the most of the Jedi have been

3:23:59Extinguished their dead exit order 66 killed him but obi-wan and Yoda are still together. Yeah, and

3:24:07and

3:24:09they figure out what's going on. They know who the Emperor is.

3:24:12So,

3:24:14why in the world would they split up?

3:24:16Why wouldn't they either A)

3:24:19go after Anakin? I would suggest that the first thing they should do is go after Anakin.

3:24:27Together. Well, first of all, I think maybe they think Anakin is dead at that point. Or at least a non-factor.

3:24:32No, they decide Yoda is going to go after the Emperor. Oh, sorry. Obi-Wan is going to go after...

3:24:37I thought you meant after, like at the end when they rendezvous on what becomes said.

3:24:42No, but that doesn't make any sense either. But before that, when they decide who to fight,

3:24:46if they decide we should get the emperor first, they should go together. If they decide we should

3:24:51go take care of Anakin, either see if we can turn him back to the good side or do something

3:24:56with him, why in the world would they split up? It makes no sense whatsoever.

3:25:02The only conceivable rationale for that is that if you act swiftly and by surprise and take out both of them, maybe that counts for something.

3:25:12But no, I would just go, I would take Yoda and go talk to Anakin.

3:25:16Like to see it's, if you have to kill him, Yoda could do it.

3:25:22You know, like, while I, I mean, Kenobi even says on stage, on screen that he can't kill him.

3:25:30kill him and then Yoda says no go do it like what why would you why would you assign him that like

3:25:35he's already basically said that it's not gonna be but then even given that the asinine nature of

3:25:43their let's split up even though there's only two of us left and you know right now we have the

3:25:48we could have the element of surprise and go if there's any chance that one of us could beat the

3:25:52emperor surely we have a better chance together we could do it right now even if you take that

3:25:56Just let him do that and say, "Yoda fights the Emperor, and Obi-Wan fights Vader and

3:26:02thinks he kills him."

3:26:04Even then, afterwards, you find out, "Well, Obi-Wan did almost kill Vader and left him

3:26:11deformed and semi-crippled, and Yoda at least fought the Emperor to a standstill."

3:26:17And then they decide, "Well, now we'll just spend 20 years."

3:26:21Yeah, it seems like they could have teamed up and taken out the Emperor at that point.

3:26:25Like Yoda did come pretty close to taking him out

3:26:28Especially since their plan wasn't okay you go take Luke to Tatooine

3:26:33Hide him from the Emperor and slowly train him as a Jedi that wasn't their plan either

3:26:37It was like you go hide in Tatooine. Luke will be there keep your eye on them

3:26:41But don't try to actually train him up for it. Like what are they waiting for?

3:26:43What was there? What was their plan for victory?

3:26:46Right at the moment that they split up and went into hiding they both had fought they wanted defeated the other and Obi wanted

3:26:54soundly defeated Vader

3:26:56And Yoda had fought the Emperor to a standstill

3:26:59I would say and certainly I would say given that he fought him to an almost standstill if they went after him together

3:27:04Obi-wan and Yoda you you know, I like their chances

3:27:07See like by the time a new hope comes in an empire what what those movies say is that Yoda had checked out

3:27:14He had a colossal failure

3:27:16institutional failure to deal with the whole, you know, he

3:27:19he was

3:27:21He has failed and as he thought he could you know be the head of the light side

3:27:25And you know so he's basically not an exile

3:27:27But he's like he's given up and he's gotten off to live in the woods right so he's checked out right and obi-wan same thing

3:27:33He's a crazy old man. He loves that and both of them are like we are defeated

3:27:37This is our great shame the best obi-wan can do is to make sure Luke

3:27:40Continues to hide from the Emperor hope he never exhibits any force powers keep him down on the farm

3:27:45And then at the very least he can say at least I'm keeping these kids safe, but the Empire is one

3:27:50We are defeated. We have no plan for victory. But like you said at the end of stupid episode 3

3:27:54They're not in that headspace. They're not both

3:27:57So massively defeated and so crushed by their own personal failings that they check out entirely from the conflict and say well

3:28:04This is never gonna change. It's gonna go off somewhere hide and die, right?

3:28:07Exactly, exactly. I had I just assumed even as I was suffering through those prequel trilogy

3:28:13I was like something's gonna happen at the end of this that's gonna leave

3:28:16Obi-wan and Yoda both like morally defeated and instead they both left like oh my god. We were so close

3:28:23Not not only so close like if you were gonna kill Anakin he was right there you could have killed him

3:28:28It's not like you didn't know he was still alive. Did you just assume he would die?

3:28:32It's like a game of the Bond villain. It's like well. I'll just assume this machine will kill you mr.. Bond

3:28:35I'm gonna leave the room now

3:28:36Yeah, when I see you later in the movie. I'll be genuinely surprised I do I

3:28:41I do kind of understand the notion of not wanting to murder Anakin in cold blood, which is effectively what it would have been.

3:28:47But then you save him!

3:28:48Well, exactly. You either save him or once he catches fire, maybe you walk back down an embankment and just-

3:28:53It's like the most morally cowardly thing. It's like, "I'm not gonna kill you, but if you happen to slide into that lava a little farther, I'll deal with that too."

3:28:59Yeah, that's horrible. It's what it is. It's just awful.

3:29:01No, I mean, no wonder he ends up extra pissed off.

3:29:04Yeah, and...

3:29:06I hated that fight between, um...

3:29:10Yoda and the Emperor. That was awful. That was just awful.

3:29:14I liked when Yoda walked in and just totally destroyed the two Imperial guards.

3:29:19The Emperor is a fun guy to watch fight because he's kind of ugly.

3:29:24He was fine when the four Jedi showed up. When the Jedi showed up to arrest him, I was fine with that.

3:29:29Because I liked the fact that he actually would. I could see him using a lightsaber because,

3:29:35Well, A, he's no height, so it's not that obscure.

3:29:39But I also like the notion that he's just... hasn't quite reached that level of enlightenment yet, that he doesn't need one.

3:29:46Yoda always strikes me as somebody who's just...

3:29:49Well, before the...

3:29:51The emperors seem kind of like...

3:29:52The emperors seem kind of feral.

3:29:54Exactly.

3:29:54I liked when the emperor and Yoda were fighting, and Yoda was like using the force to move heavy things,

3:29:58and the emperor was, you know, shooting at him with lightning or whatever.

3:30:01Yeah, well, yeah.

3:30:02Although the lightning ultimately screws him up, doesn't he?

3:30:06He gets thrown off and his little nails get stuck into the...

3:30:10That's a good question.

3:30:13I've never seen a good...

3:30:14Jonas and I have talked about that a lot.

3:30:16So we've never even mentioned Mace Windu, who to me, I love Sam Jackson.

3:30:20A waste of Sam Jackson.

3:30:22Exactly.

3:30:23Yeah, a waste.

3:30:24What?

3:30:25What a waste of him.

3:30:26Yeah, what a waste, because he's awesome.

3:30:27He could have been a bad guy, or he could have been some kind of weird, vone-in Jedi.

3:30:31awesome and he's also in he's also into Star Wars he wanted to be in the movies

3:30:34and what he was given is like he does a bad job with the line readings he has no

3:30:38charisma to the character the character has nothing to do he doesn't seem like a

3:30:40badass it's just like how can Sam Jackson not seem like a badass well he

3:30:44seems more badass than anybody else if only because everybody else is

3:30:47completely wooden so there is a cool thing in that scene where they go to

3:30:52confront the Emperor and the Emperor just jumps at them with a weird fighting

3:30:57style like you said Farrell is perfect and I love the way that he like killed

3:31:01four of them in like ten seconds like he's so badass and there's never been a

3:31:05lightsaber fight like that every other lightsaber fight we've ever seen up

3:31:08until this point was dramatic and had ebbs and flows and even like when Dooku

3:31:13in the second movie was kind of dominant over Obi-Wan and Anakin it took him a

3:31:18while took him a while to cut off Anakin's hand it took him a while to

3:31:21get Obi-Wan you know pinned under a column whereas the Emperor is such a

3:31:24- Badass, like boom, boom, boom.

3:31:26- Yeah.

3:31:27I mean, they light their lightsabers

3:31:30and then they're on the floor.

3:31:31Like that's just, yeah.

3:31:31- So this is the thing about the fight scenes

3:31:33in all these movies.

3:31:34If you're going to have a fight scene,

3:31:36unless your movie is about fighting styles,

3:31:38unless it's like one of those classic Kung Fu movies

3:31:40where the whole frigging movie is about,

3:31:41I'm gonna learn crane technique

3:31:42and I'm gonna learn the tiger technique

3:31:44and my technique is better than your technique

3:31:45and I'm gonna train at a monastery.

3:31:47Like unless your whole frigging movie

3:31:48is about fighting techniques,

3:31:50the fight can't be about who is a better fighter.

3:31:52The fight has to be about something else.

3:31:54and in the case of the Emperor going feral,

3:31:56the part of that fight that was dramatic is

3:31:59the Emperor is revealed.

3:32:00He's revealed in a sudden fashion.

3:32:01The people who are there are surprised that he's revealed.

3:32:03It is not about how exactly he defeats those people.

3:32:06When you have Emperor versus Yoda,

3:32:08it's not about who is stronger and who is not.

3:32:10The fight always has to be about something else.

3:32:11Because again, unless your movie is a Kung Fu movie

3:32:14where you're actually concentrating on fighting styles,

3:32:16you always have to have the fight

3:32:18be about something else from the fight

3:32:19because that's what happens.

3:32:20We're not like, otherwise you would just have a movie

3:32:23where people have a conflict and then they just have a long grown out sword fight and

3:32:26the winner of the sword fight wins the movie. That can't be what the fight is about. The

3:32:29fight has to be about something else and they just happen to be fighting to work out whatever

3:32:33else. It doesn't mean they need to have a conversation the whole time in the fight,

3:32:36Princess Bride style or anything. But like, the fight has to be about something else.

3:32:41The Emperor killing all those people, that particular fight is about, I am revealed,

3:32:46this is me, I bet you're surprised this old guy can do this and here I am and quickly

3:32:49kill them. And once that is done, the fight is over.

3:32:52So here's the thing with that. I mean, I totally agree with you. And I think that goes back

3:32:55to the point I was trying to make about the battles is that, you know, without anything,

3:33:01any skin in the game, it just really doesn't matter. Really, the only character that showed

3:33:07up to arrest Palpatine was Windu. The other guys were just fodder to prove that like,

3:33:14Whoa, this guy's serious. And, you know, sure enough, he dispatched them and, you know,

3:33:21popcorn. They didn't matter. The actual fight came down to Windu and Palpatine. And I thought

3:33:26it was actually a pretty good fight. I did too. I actually think it was the best part of the whole

3:33:32prequel. Because I think they both had something at stake. Certainly Windu represented the old

3:33:37school strict Jedi order. And Palpatine was more so than the Yoda-Palpatine fight. Because it...

3:33:46You know my interpretation of the way that scene went was that mace windu is indeed a badass

3:33:51Maybe he's even more powerful than yoda because he's at least at the at the athletic

3:33:56There is a line in there. It's uh, I think anakin delivers

3:33:59It says something like I will be I want to be a better, uh sword fighter than mace windu than

3:34:05Master windu something like or maybe yeah

3:34:08They definitely shout out to to windu to be like yoda was always held up in that whatever this conversation was

3:34:15Yoda was always held up. Yeah.

3:34:16Which was really, yeah, there is one that shout outs that

3:34:21sort of props Windu up as being a badass.

3:34:26And I forget what it is.

3:34:27Yeah, but like but but Sam Jackson, the actor could not deliver on that

3:34:31because I guess they didn't have enough body doubles forever.

3:34:33And he just looked kind of old and tired.

3:34:34I like the way well, I kind of like that because I.

3:34:37I kind of like the idea that I mean, he hasn't really been.

3:34:41Well, actually, we just saw him fighting the second one.

3:34:44I was gonna say maybe he was attached like he did. Yeah, I don't know

3:34:48I liked it because it was less frenetic and you could just sort of see them. Yeah battling Palpatine was seen my interpretation

3:34:54Yeah

3:34:56Well, my interpretation of the cino is that Windu actually actually got the better of him and that Emperor Palpatine was not

3:35:03Sandbagging he was desperate and that the only way he could save himself

3:35:08The only way was if he could completely if he could complete Anakin's turn to the dark side

3:35:14It either he could turn Anakin and and have Anakin, you know

3:35:18Knock Windu out the window or cut off his arm, whatever he did first or he was dead

3:35:23Palpatine was a loser his only chance had nothing he couldn't beat Mace Windu in the fight

3:35:29He'd lost so the only way he could win was to complete Anakin's turn that was

3:35:32I think Windu

3:35:35It's a failure of the filmmaking that it's not clear that those were the stakes

3:35:40And I always thought he was sandbagging a little bit just because that's kind of his MO where he was like, you know

3:35:45It's hard to say I manipulate Anakin

3:35:47That's my take but I have to admit that the other take that he was sandbagging and he could have

3:35:52Up the force on Windu at any moment, you know, yeah

3:35:56But it's sloppy filmmaking for that to be ambiguous is probably not intended to be ambiguous

3:36:00It's like but then in my reading it was him

3:36:03when he was shooting the force lightning at Windu and Windu was successfully blocking it with his lightsaber and

3:36:10And his that's when he got deformed and you know

3:36:13That was him like to Pete depleting his own life force like he'd I don't think he wanted to be disfigured

3:36:18It wasn't like it was his true

3:36:20Form he's not a shape-shifter. He was like wrecking himself

3:36:23Because he was so desperate, you know

3:36:26He was giving it everything he had and even everything he had wasn't enough to

3:36:30Beat me that's my take - if only because again he deforms himself

3:36:34but I'd really do think that it's just it's just a

3:36:39condemnation of the filmmaking that it's ambiguous because this at the same level when that you know the the culmination in return of the Jedi

3:36:46It's all very clear what the stakes are

3:36:49There's amber couldn't beat mace Windu and one-on-one combat

3:36:52He also couldn't beat Yoda like it at best you could say both of them came to draws or maybe mace at the upper hand

3:36:57but that doesn't make sense in the context of the later movies the idea that

3:37:02The Emperor is the top of the heap on the dark side and you would assume that

3:37:07that one-on-one the Emperor could take out any of the single light side people simply because the dark side, you know

3:37:13Not more powerful, but like in terms of killing people like you know, how do you get to be the head of the Sith?

3:37:20Well, we also don't know how it works

3:37:22It could be like the Peter Pan thing where every time you believe in a Sith guy he gets more powerful, you know, like

3:37:27Yeah, I don't know

3:37:29Is basically the question is is the Emperor at the end of Return of the Jedi more powerful than the Emperor in episode right?

3:37:35And who knows also who cares just yeah, I would say yes

3:37:39I think so too because it's like the Sith get like more powerful as they get old and more evil

3:37:44Yeah, cuz I mean he's had 20 years to get rid of it being a badass, right or

3:37:47Maybe not with his lightsaber, but at least with his you know his research into being evil

3:37:53Well, no because I mean he you know they talk about that at the Opera. That's a great scene by the way well great

3:38:00It's it's it's really good

3:38:02It's nonsensical

3:38:05How are you?

3:38:07Stop people from dying. Did you ever care about somebody? Maybe you should slaughter children, but it's it's tense

3:38:13It's an opera which I thought was kind of interesting. I like this stuff

3:38:17But like and the actor what's his name?

3:38:22He's creepy he's one of the better actors in the prequel trilogy who despite the fact that he's given stupid things to say deliver

3:38:30Yeah, I regret saying great. It's great in the toilet bowl in which it swims. It's actually

3:38:37it's pretty good. Isn't it so telling though that like

3:38:42in the first trilogy, the original trilogy, everybody was at least clamoring for these

3:38:50backstory prequels of, well, how did Vader get like this? How did Anakin turn to the dark side?

3:38:55Whereas after the prequels nobody was like well, how did the Emperor learn to be a Sith while he was an up-and-coming politician?

3:39:02That's the thing where you mentioned like in A New Hope where like they

3:39:05offhandedly mentioned sorts of lots of things like Clone War or an Empire Ord Mandel or the the you know

3:39:11All these things like they laid these little seeds of like oh you could flesh those out forward or backwards

3:39:15What seeds were laid in the prequels? It's like the time began in the prequels. Like there was nothing mentioned in the prequels

3:39:20Well, it was about things that happened before the prequels.

3:39:22Darth Sidious, what was the name? The previous guy?

3:39:25Darth Malus? Like the Plagueis?

3:39:28Seriously?

3:39:31Right, but like but those are that's not that's actually spoken in the thing. It's not like, you know, something casual

3:39:36That was like a major plot point where they're describing a backstory, right?

3:39:40Like the one and only thing I could think of that I'd kind of wanted to know more about was this

3:39:45I have no idea. Thank you for bringing that up because that none of it makes it right

3:39:50He was a Jedi who somehow commissioned a building of the was he killed by Dooku and then Dooku posed as him

3:39:57It's too much exposition for like there's just too much plot happening

3:40:01or like the structure isn't sturdy and then they hang

3:40:04tinsel and ornaments all over the friggin thing until it's just a big giant mess and it's like you didn't even have good bone structure under

3:40:09there and now now you

3:40:11like a clone army of I don't know how many strong it's got to be hundreds of thousands right from what we see just

3:40:17appears and the

3:40:19Galactic Republic is like, "Oh, cool. Let's just use these guys? What?"

3:40:24That's mind-boggling.

3:40:27Clones aren't humans. It doesn't matter about the clones.

3:40:30It doesn't matter, even if that many droids showed up to be on your site.

3:40:36It's not a matter of what they are.

3:40:38It's worse than that. It's like saying if you wanted to have a standing army made entirely of identical twins,

3:40:43it would be okay if they all got slaughtered.

3:40:45Because they're all genetically identical.

3:40:47Once you're genetically identical, it's like, well...

3:40:49There's only that aspect.

3:40:51You don't even count as human. If anybody shares their genes with you, you don't count as human.

3:40:55But even a guy like Dooku, who has in broad strokes sounds like an interesting guy,

3:41:01was a real Jedi, turned to the dark side, left the order...

3:41:05Which, you know what, they make it sound like no big deal.

3:41:08Oh, he's an ex-Jedi. He can't possibly do that.

3:41:11So that makes me think that ex-Jedis are a thing.

3:41:14Yeah, that's you know, some guys leave and get whatever they do. Yeah into yeah go into

3:41:21professional sports or something. That's still good guys, but you know, yeah.

3:41:25In broad strokes, if you just defined the character before you showed me the movie,

3:41:30I would think, "Oh, that's an interesting guy. I would like to know more about him."

3:41:33Then you watch the movie and you're like, "I would I am not interested in the least

3:41:36bit in this broad caricature of evil." Well, I have something for you. And you know,

3:41:43He's a robot with four arms and eight lightsabers.

3:41:46How much less could you care about somebody's design?

3:41:53I mean.

3:41:54Well, I like the idea of taking lightsabers from here.

3:41:57That I like.

3:41:58And you know what?

3:41:59He worked well in that in that cell animation one that we were talking

3:42:03about at the top of the show.

3:42:05I like that character.

3:42:06And then I saw him in in in film and he stinks.

3:42:13He's awful. It's just yeah, he was just empty

3:42:15He was just empty bad guy and they even reused the the the idea of having a respiratory problem from vader

3:42:22You know

3:42:24It's just a hodgepodge. I do like the way he's dispatched by kenobi with a blaster because you get a cute

3:42:29You get a cute action hero line out of it

3:42:32Yeah, that wasn't that wasn't good but it you know wasn't bad yeah no

3:42:38Well, and it raises the question of how many?

3:42:41um how many one-on-one duels can you fit in one movie

3:42:47i mean because that's really what that last movie devolved into is just one

3:42:51after it was pretty hilarious that um

3:42:55uh grievous just starts shit talking kenobi despite the fact that

3:43:00and he keeps doing it despite the fact that kenobi's chopped off to his arms

3:43:04ready and he's still he's still giving like you

3:43:06can't escape it's like i've just started cutting you to pieces i'm pretty sure

3:43:10I'm doing pretty good here

3:43:12like he jumps into like a

3:43:14ring of a hundred droids and then just you know

3:43:17Chops up the bad guy and the bad guy is still giving him shit like, you know, maybe turn that back a little bit

3:43:23So there's there's Darth Maul. There's Count Dooku. There's Grievous and even the Emperor himself

3:43:30You've got four major bad guys in a whole trilogy and there's not one of them who I would like to know more about

3:43:35You know or how he came to be who he is

3:43:38No, you could combine them all into a janko fit maybe

3:43:42Yeah, maybe maybe

3:43:46But I still think it's kind of a jit that they just duplicated at least he meets a better end in his son

3:43:53Yeah

3:43:55Yeah, all right. I think we've gone on long enough. This has been everything I could ask for more. It's a true holiday

3:44:01spectacular

3:44:05Yeah, I don't thank our sponsors we've got to get Marco on

3:44:08Holes and Dan Morin, that's it

3:44:15You guys did yeah, sorry for not getting you out of the greenery now. I want to thank our sponsors

3:44:21We had Casper we had fracture and we had back blaze

3:44:25This is all I could ask for and more

3:44:28John Sir, Cusa and Guy English. Thank you very very much for

3:44:33enormous amount of your time thanks it's been a lot of fun it's a lot of Star

3:44:37Wars to cover you know yeah we're still not done but it was pretty good no no

3:44:41we'll come back for part two perfect or or Empire Day all right thank you guys

3:44:49I'm going to bed