39: iOS 7 Deforestation

0:00:00this week's episode of the talk show is brought to you by back blaze online

0:00:05backup five dollars a month unlimited unthrottled uncomplicated go to back

0:00:11blaze comm slash daring fireball for more information I saw you I saw you're

0:00:19getting you're digging in deep on the PHP stuff again I am yeah and now you're

0:00:26going to switch to NGINX? Are you thinking of mine?

0:00:29It's Enginex.

0:00:30Enginex. I don't know how to pronounce it.

0:00:32Yeah.

0:00:33Why don't give -- nobody name your software something where it's ambiguous how you're

0:00:35supposed to pronounce it.

0:00:37[laughter]

0:00:38Enginex. Jesus Christ. What a stupid way to spell that.

0:00:43I'm still like -- I'm one of those people where even if the project owner or the project

0:00:48maintainer insists that the correct pronunciation is a certain way, if I think that pronunciation

0:00:53is stupid, I won't use it. So like, like, SQLite is one of those things where I think

0:00:59the, the, the actual official pronunciation I believe is, is SQLite or something or it's

0:01:07something weird that, that I thought was dumb so I don't use it. Same thing with like GIF

0:01:12versus GIF. I say GIF and I don't really care what the correct pronunciation is. It's GIF.

0:01:16You know?

0:01:17I was about to ask you how you pronounce GIF. I pronounce it GIF as well and, and it's,

0:01:23I know that it stands for graphics interchange format, so I feel like there's a reason to

0:01:28stand on that.

0:01:29And it ends up, it ends up though that the guy who invented it pronounces it JIF.

0:01:33And all the JIF people say, well, if he invented it and he calls it JIF, it must be JIF.

0:01:39And I say, no, it's GIF.

0:01:40I don't care what the hell.

0:01:41See, I feel like this is like a George Lucas scenario.

0:01:43Like at some point, you got to override the creator.

0:01:46Right.

0:01:48We're not changing the format.

0:01:49No.

0:01:50Right?

0:01:51redefined what the GIF interchange, you know, graphics format is. I haven't rendered it

0:01:57technically, you know, and it's some kind of incompatibility. I'm just telling you it

0:02:01should be pronounced GIF.

0:02:02Exactly. And at some point, you just have to say, you know what? I respect you for creating

0:02:07this thing or working at the company that created this thing, but you're just wrong

0:02:12on this.

0:02:13Also, GIF already is a thing. It's peanut butter. It's kind of a crappy mass-produced

0:02:17peanut butter but it is a very popular peanut butter whereas GIF is out there

0:02:22for the taking there is no GIF right it's unambiguous if you say that this

0:02:26image format is going to be pronounced GIF then anytime you hear GIF you know

0:02:31that they're talking about peanut butter and not an image format I'll go even

0:02:35further and say hey look we've got a whole bunch of words in the English

0:02:38language that have a G and it's sometimes hard G sometimes a soft G but

0:02:43if you're gonna make up a new word with a G why not go the unambiguous route and

0:02:47and use the G in the hard G format,

0:02:50where there is no other letter that makes that sound.

0:02:53And if you want the soft G sound, use a J.

0:02:58- Right, and 'cause then also when you hear GIF,

0:03:00there's no ambiguity on how it's spelled.

0:03:03- Exactly, exactly, exactly.

0:03:06I tell you to get a GIF file,

0:03:07and you don't even know what it is.

0:03:08Well, how are you gonna write that down?

0:03:10Maybe you'll add an extra F, I don't know,

0:03:12but at least you'll be in the ballpark.

0:03:14- Or at the worst, you add an extra F.

0:03:16You read it.

0:03:17See, and I'm one of those guys who, like, I know people say "ping" for the PNG format,

0:03:23but I stuck with PNG for a long time. I think I might even still say it. I don't get a chance

0:03:28to say it very often, so I'm not positive on that, but I still say "png" for the ambiguity

0:03:32reason.

0:03:33Hmm. I think I'm not quite sure. Hmm. I think ping evolved so late in the game relative

0:03:43that I was already sort of working by myself most of the time by the time PNG became widely

0:03:48used. Whereas GIF and GIF, that was when I was collaborating and working with people.

0:03:57So I had to say it a lot. I don't remember saying PNG a lot.

0:04:00Tim Cynova Yeah, now that you work in a hole alone, you

0:04:05can avoid saying everything out loud except when you podcast or speak somewhere.

0:04:08In my head though I think of it as a PNG.

0:04:11Yeah. It just seems right. Ping already means something in computers.

0:04:16And business people stole it to mean something even worse.

0:04:20What's that? Oh, you're like, "Hey, I'll

0:04:24ping you later and we can talk about our action items."

0:04:27They stole download, they stole so many things.

0:04:31Terrible. Speaking of business people,

0:04:34you hear Windows Live,

0:04:37they're like phasing out that brand and they're totally getting rid of the Hotmail brand.

0:04:42I saw something on Twitter last night before I went to bed about that.

0:04:47Aren't there like, there's like a billion people on Hotmail?

0:04:50Yeah, I'll have to double check. I believe, I know it was the largest webmail service for quite a long time,

0:04:56even long after Gmail was released. I believe it might still be the largest.

0:05:01Oh, I thought Yahoo was the biggest.

0:05:03Gmail's always been third place there,

0:05:05but especially like worldwide,

0:05:08if you go past just the US,

0:05:09I think Gmail's more popular in the US,

0:05:10and then worldwide it gets worse for Gmail.

0:05:14But it's crazy, like Hotmail was the first

0:05:18mass scale webmail, and that name is now

0:05:21gonna be totally gone.

0:05:23But Microsoft changes the name of their online

0:05:25consumer service stuff like every five years.

0:05:28When did Windows Live start?

0:05:30Like with Xbox Live after that,

0:05:32You know who knows what was that seven or eight years ago? They started that that's all gonna be gone

0:05:38And now they're going to outlook calm and who knows what else?

0:05:40That's not very interesting they don't think Microsoft often doesn't have their shit together in terms of

0:05:49Getting acquisitions on brand

0:05:54Like I you know like the hotmail thing if they were gonna do that why not do it years ago. Why wait ten years?

0:06:00Well, I'm not really sure Microsoft knows what their branding is, you know

0:06:04they I think one of the problems is they keep changing their own minds about it and

0:06:07Like over like about five years ago. They started really maybe even more than that

0:06:12They started really shoving windows in your face more like they started adding the word windows

0:06:17To the names of all the programs that they made that ran on Windows

0:06:20it was like, you know Windows Explorer Windows Internet Explorer and

0:06:24Windows every and like things that the end and they starting the same thing with office

0:06:29So now it's like Microsoft Office Word, Microsoft Office Excel, which is just kind of clumsy.

0:06:34And I don't really know what the goal there was, except like to beat people over the head

0:06:39with the fact that it's Windows that you're using and Office that this is a part of. But

0:06:42I think there's better ways to do that, and I think people don't really care. It just

0:06:46made everything more clumsy.

0:06:47Yeah, I've always interpreted that from the outside as being Balmer. That Balmer thinks

0:06:51that Windows is a winner, because Windows makes a lot of money, and Windows is a clear

0:06:57market winner. And so it just, it's like him insisting that everything is Windows. Whereas

0:07:03it doesn't even make any sense, you know, like, and I've said this before, like when

0:07:07with this whole thing where they couldn't figure out what to call Metro after they lost

0:07:10the name Metro and they still call it, you know, Windows. But it doesn't even, the whole

0:07:14thing with the new UI is that it doesn't even involve Windows. I mean, literal Windows,

0:07:20lowercase W Windows. I mean, it was at least, the name Windows at least applied to the software

0:07:27originally. It was, "Hey, here's the thing you put on your computer and everything runs

0:07:30in a rectangle that's called a window and you can have lots of them." And everything's

0:07:36in these overlapping rectangles called windows.

0:07:39Yeah, but they lost that long ago. I mean, even back with Windows CE and what then became

0:07:46Pocket PC and then Windows Mobile 2003, they kept changing the name of that too. But even

0:07:53like it looked like Windows but I think everything was full screen wasn't it?

0:07:57Yeah I think so I think it was sort of like Windows it looked like the Windows

0:08:02Chrome but you couldn't couldn't make the Windows over right and they crammed

0:08:05it that was another example of them overusing the Windows brand and the

0:08:09Windows theme of Windows everywhere like they they crammed in the start menu and

0:08:13they crammed in like the little minimize and close buttons and the title bars and

0:08:17so yeah you're right like it looked like Windows but it didn't really work that

0:08:21way and it didn't work very well on devices of that size.

0:08:23Right. And to me it makes even less sense for the online stuff.

0:08:27Yeah, because what is, I mean, well, I mean, but obviously, you know, they're not thinking

0:08:31of the word Windows in the lowercase w way anymore.

0:08:34Right.

0:08:35And they haven't thought about it that way for a very long time. You know, they own that

0:08:39word now.

0:08:40It's like a weird extra superfluous level of hierarchy though, branding-wise, where

0:08:45why not just emphasize Microsoft, right? There's the thing that you can get that everybody's

0:08:50he's heard of and it's already familiar and it, you know, it, you know, it's a well-known

0:08:58popular brand. I mean, I know for years and years, you know, Microsoft was, you know,

0:09:03in the worldwide brand survey was like top three, I think. Like a head of Apple, a head

0:09:07of Google, like up there with like Coke and something else.

0:09:10Yeah, I never understood why they didn't emphasize that more because you're right that, you know,

0:09:16been driving home the Windows brand for years so hard, but I don't think it really sticks

0:09:21with people. If you ask people, "Do you have a Windows computer?" I bet more people would

0:09:27not really know what to say to that than if you asked them if they had a Microsoft computer.

0:09:33I feel like people don't really care about the Windows brand.

0:09:37If you want something to parlay your new product, your new initiative, "Here's a new thing we're

0:09:42doing, we're doing online services, why not just stick with the company instead of, you

0:09:48know, going two levels deep and having Microsoft Windows live. Now you've got these two levels

0:09:53of branding hierarchy. Everything's under Windows.

0:09:55Right. Or Office.

0:09:56Right. It'd be like if you took your hard drive and put everything in one folder at

0:10:02the root level.

0:10:03Called hard drive.

0:10:04Right. Called hard drive. Or called folders.

0:10:08Yeah.

0:10:09Right.

0:10:10Files.

0:10:11Why have that one extra level of hierarchy at the top?

0:10:17It doesn't make any sense.

0:10:19I don't know.

0:10:21They always have this kind of like, you kind of think something's maybe in the water

0:10:25up there.

0:10:27It just seems like Microsoft lives in a slightly different reality than the rest of us when

0:10:32it comes to things like branding and marketing of their stuff.

0:10:36just seems like you can tell that they, like in their world of Redmond and their various

0:10:43office campuses and everything, like in their world where all those people live and hang

0:10:47out and talk to each other, this all makes perfect sense. And then when you get like

0:10:52some kind of weird new commercial out of there or some kind of weird new product name they

0:10:57come up with, the rest of the world, you're just kind of like, "Eh." It's a little

0:11:02bit off. You know, it's like if you ever spend any time in Western Pennsylvania, especially

0:11:08Northwestern Pennsylvania in the Erie region, almost everything there is just a little bit

0:11:13off.

0:11:14Yeah, I've never been up there. Been to Pittsburgh many times.

0:11:18Pittsburgh is a pretty nice place. Western Pennsylvania, like Northwestern Pennsylvania,

0:11:21I went to college there and spent quite a lot of time there. And it's, you know, Microsoft

0:11:26could be headquartered there. It's very much like the same kind of, just a little bit off.

0:11:31Pittsburgh's a little off too though. I always joked with Amy that Pittsburgh is a little

0:11:38bit like the Simpsons Springfield where it's sort of sequestered like half part of-- well,

0:11:47mostly part of modern North American pop culture but it has its own stuff. And the best example

0:11:53is the way that Springfield has Duff Beer. They've got the Iron City Beer in Pittsburgh

0:11:59which you can buy nowhere else. No one else carries Iron City beer. And in Pittsburgh,

0:12:05it's everywhere. It's like Budweiser and Miller and Coors all rolled into one.

0:12:11Yeah, Pittsburgh is is I live there for a couple years. I like Pittsburgh a lot. It's

0:12:17it's a really nice city in a lot of ways. But yeah, there are some things about that

0:12:21are like that are just kind of bizarre. And but no one there thinks it's bizarre to them.

0:12:26you know, it's just that's how things are. And I guess it's true of most places, but

0:12:31I feel like Pittsburgh has more of a quirky personality than most cities do. But that's

0:12:38true of a lot of things in Pennsylvania in general. I mean, Pennsylvania is just kind

0:12:41of quirky.

0:12:42Totally. So tell me something weird about the Erie people or what's going on up there.

0:12:50Well first of all, I think the whole place is made of cigarettes.

0:12:52What?

0:12:53What?

0:12:54It's just like you can just – if you're driving anywhere within 20 miles of Erie,

0:13:00you'll smell cigarette smoke the entire – I mean I don't know what – like everyone

0:13:03there smokes.

0:13:05And I mean it's kind of a depressing place.

0:13:08It's – the economy of Erie has been pretty terrible for a pretty long time.

0:13:12It's one of those post-industrial places that just never really recovered when everything

0:13:15was outsourced.

0:13:18The climate is awful.

0:13:21gets way more snow than you would expect based on its latitude, and it's just really miserable

0:13:27most of the time. And it's kind of out in the middle of nowhere, too. So it has everything

0:13:33working against it. But people who live in Eerie, people who are from Eerie, and I include

0:13:40a lot of my family in this, actually, a lot of my family is from Eerie, but people who

0:13:44live in Erie tend to be perfectly fine with it and not recognize or not care that it's

0:13:51such a depressing place. And a lot of them have literally never been anywhere else, like

0:13:56never left the Erie area. And it's just fine, as long as they smoke constantly. I guess

0:14:03that makes it okay. So, I've never been a cigarette guy, so I don't really know what

0:14:06it does to you, but that makes it okay to live in Erie. So, hey, you know, whatever

0:14:12it takes shirts I'm sure they're fine people oh yeah they're very nice I would

0:14:17be interested in seeing a map that shows like areas where smoking is still

0:14:26permitted and like restaurants Pennsylvania is the big red dot well you

0:14:33you've heard of James Carville the form I guess he's on TV now but yeah the

0:14:39Is that a Clinton guy?

0:14:40Yeah, a Clinton guy.

0:14:41But his description of Pennsylvania, I think it applies both politically and culturally.

0:14:47But he said it's Philadelphia on one side, Pittsburgh on the other, and Alabama in the

0:14:51middle.

0:14:52Yeah.

0:14:53That's pretty accurate.

0:14:57To win the state, you've got to run that way.

0:15:01You don't just campaign in Pennsylvania.

0:15:03You campaign very differently on the Pittsburgh and Philly areas than you do in Harrisburg.

0:15:08Yeah.

0:15:09And New York is very similar too. I mean, everyone thinks of New York who's not from

0:15:12here, who's from the other side of the country. Everyone thinks of New York as being like

0:15:16the city. But in fact, it's this extremely diverse state and a very large state with

0:15:23lots of different political climates, lots of different types of people, and lots of

0:15:26different types of places. But yeah.

0:15:29Right. Like the state legislature in New York is nothing like the city politics in New York

0:15:34City.

0:15:35Oh yeah, and the state can't get anything done because the state is so incredibly diverse

0:15:38that the state legislature just can't agree on anything.

0:15:42Yeah. I think it's a little bit. I think Pennsylvania's non-urban areas, though, have more people

0:15:49than New York's. I could be wrong. Or if I am wrong about it being more split, like I

0:15:57feel like New York is so big. It's clearly way bigger population-wise than Philly and

0:16:03Pittsburgh combined. It may not even be that the non-urban areas in Pennsylvania are more

0:16:11populous. It's just that the urban area isn't as populated enough to compensate the way

0:16:16that New York City can in New York. But I feel like when we get a Republican governor,

0:16:23we get much more of a regular Republican governor, just like typical Republican governors throughout

0:16:29the country as opposed to New York where you get like a Pataki who's you know is

0:16:34a little bit more moderate same thing with New Jersey with what's his name

0:16:40over there big guy Christy yeah it's Christy Chris Chris Chris yeah how can

0:16:44you forget a name like that it sounds like he's a comic book character Chris

0:16:47Christie he signed a bill that if if you're taking drugs with your pals and

0:16:53one of them has an overdose and you report it you can't you won't be you

0:16:58You won't get pro- you know, you're immune from prosecution for having taken the drugs

0:17:03yourself.

0:17:04That seems very sensible.

0:17:05I'm kind of surprised that wasn't already the policy.

0:17:07Can you- I mean, that's the thing is that can you believe that the conservatives are

0:17:10giving the guy shit for signing the bill like that?

0:17:13Yes I can, but-

0:17:15I love the guy.

0:17:16His explanation on TV is like, look, I don't want anybody breaking laws.

0:17:19I don't want anybody taking drugs, but if you think it's more important to prosecute

0:17:24someone for taking drugs than saving somebody else's life, then, you know, we're going to

0:17:28a disagreement. Exactly. But anyway we don't get Republicans like that in Pennsylvania.

0:17:34Anyway enough politics. Now that we've lost all the listeners.

0:17:39Right. Now that we've lost all the listeners let me take the first sponsor break and tell

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0:18:12I run a site called Daring Fireball. Anyway, the URL you want is backblaze.com/daringfireball.

0:18:18slash daring fireball. Now that's weird too because this is the talk show not

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0:18:26Kind of interesting. Kind of interesting I thought that's a little nutty and then

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0:19:52That's a pretty good line. www.backblaze.com/daringfireball. My thanks to them.

0:20:01A couple other things that I wanted to add to that also. So first of all, I'm a Backblaze

0:20:04user. I've been a Backblaze user for a couple of years. I just checked. I currently have

0:20:081.3 terabytes from my computer backed up, and then my wife's computer, I believe, has

0:20:12about another 1.8 terabytes.

0:20:15So we're looking at over three terabytes of stuff

0:20:17we've backed up to them over the last couple of years.

0:20:19And it's pretty great, especially

0:20:21if you have big photos and stuff like that, where

0:20:24other options can be more expensive or unwieldy.

0:20:28Also, one thing that's really great that I've used before

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0:20:33And I don't use Dropbox for everything.

0:20:35I have small documents, a handful

0:20:38of small documents in Dropbox, but nothing really big

0:20:40and not all of my stuff.

0:20:42So what you can do is--

0:20:44like I was away from home one time,

0:20:46and I couldn't get back to my computer

0:20:48because back to my Mac or whatever it's called this year

0:20:51was not going through the airport extreme properly

0:20:53or something.

0:20:53Well, whatever reason, I couldn't access my files

0:20:56directly.

0:20:57And I needed a file off my desktop.

0:20:58So I just went to Backblaze and pulled it off there

0:21:02onto my laptop from vacation.

0:21:04And it was fine because it's online backup.

0:21:06It has all your files.

0:21:07And so it's kind of like an infinitely sized dropbox

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0:21:11you know, you can go, if you forgot to bring a file with you on vacation, you can go fetch

0:21:15it from your Backblaze backup.

0:21:16>> It's amazing. I actually didn't know that you could do that.

0:21:19>> Yeah, it's pretty cool. And that's, and I believe that's one of the headlining features

0:21:24of the iPhone app they just released, is the ability to do that from the iPhone too, which

0:21:28is pretty nice.

0:21:29>> Yeah, it is pretty neat. That way you don't have to worry about syncing stuff to your

0:21:31iPhone. You just sort of pick and choose and access.

0:21:33>> Exactly.

0:21:34>> And again, I make a joke about their pun about losing your stuff in a Fireball or a

0:21:40Blaze or whatever. But the truth is if your only backups are in your house, you are at

0:21:44risk of what if your house catches on fire? What if you get robbed? If you get robbed

0:21:48and a burglar comes in your house, they're probably just going to grab anything that

0:21:52looks computery, including your hard drives and stuff like that.

0:21:55Oh, yeah. I would say if you have any kind of reasonable upstream, if you're still on

0:22:00a 128K upstream DSL, then you've got to be careful with what you back up online. But

0:22:05If you have anything faster than that, if you're on cable or if you're on optical like

0:22:08Fios, you got to do this.

0:22:13Online backup is awesome.

0:22:15I will say that they didn't pay me or you for me to say this, but online backup is ridiculously

0:22:20awesome and I've tried a few of the options and my favorite by far is Backblaze.

0:22:24It's amazing.

0:22:25I had no idea that you were a regular Backblaze user.

0:22:28I did not invite you to be my guest this week because of that.

0:22:31Honestly, I don't even know.

0:22:32That would have been a pretty weak reason.

0:22:33It would have, but it's a happy accident.

0:22:35But smart sponsors, smart guests, and it's not entirely coincidental that they're already aware of each other.

0:22:45It was like Molt last week with the Igloo, the internet people. It was exactly what Molt needed in his last job.

0:22:57What else this week? The big thing I guess, well one of the big things is this all of

0:23:04a sudden like this week there was like a spate of reports. I think Mark Gurman at 9to5Mac

0:23:14was first and then John Pachkowski at all things D and Adam Cetoriano at Bloomberg all

0:23:23sort of reported on iOS 7 being a little bit late behind schedule sort of under

0:23:30the gun to get it ready to show at WWDC and have it ready to ship presumably you

0:23:37know September October when a new iPhone and maybe iPads or something like that

0:23:42are coming out and be that it's one of the reasons it's behind is that they're

0:23:47they're doing like a top-to-bottom UI overhaul. I presume you've read these stories.

0:23:53I have, yeah. And I mean, first of all, you know, what is... whenever something is reported

0:23:59to be behind that's still, you know, six months out, you gotta wonder like what...

0:24:04what... is it actually running behind schedule or is it just not the schedule

0:24:08that the reporter assumed or wanted? Yeah, I... well, in this case I... I, you know, and... and all of

0:24:14them, I think, I don't know about Germin. Germin's story at 9to5Mac was so long and

0:24:18meandering that I did not finish it. He's a good kid and he's doing really good work,

0:24:22but boy, that story he had was a lot of words for very little information.

0:24:27But I will say, and I'm not the type of person who gets hung up on it, but I started rolling

0:24:34my eyes at all of this because I put all this in a branch discussion like a month ago. They

0:24:41gave me credit. Both Satoriano and Pachkowski graciously said that it was first reported

0:24:48at Daring Fireball, but it was like a month ago. So I did hear that, and that was like

0:24:55a month ago, that iOS 7 is behind not just in terms of speculation, but within Apple

0:25:03it was behind where they wanted it to be in terms of... And I think that it actually affected

0:25:10the WWDC announcement date in terms of they were not 100% sure that it would be ready

0:25:17even to show at WWDC until late in April. I don't think that they really purposefully

0:25:24like announcing WWDC only five or six weeks before the date. In years past sometimes they've

0:25:32announced it in March and I think that if everything had gone perfectly according to

0:25:36schedule I think that they might have announced WWDC a month earlier but that it was a, you

0:25:41know, are we sure that we're going to have it in shape to show in June?

0:25:45Right. And then whatever they show in June, you know, it's such a high profile event with

0:25:49the keynote and they're expected to show iOS 7 and show details about it during the keynote

0:25:54and then tell all the developers about it for the next few days. So, you know, it pretty

0:25:59much has to be feature complete and ready to demo what is that six weeks from now five

0:26:06weeks from now and it's really soon.

0:26:09And they don't have to give a developer beta but it's it would be weird if they don't because

0:26:14if they're gonna be telling you about these new things like things that are different

0:26:19and things that are new and they want you to start working on them it would be I mean

0:26:25and usually they do usually they have you know a developer beta you know that

0:26:29you if you're you know after the keynote you can sign into ADC and then there's

0:26:34you know iOS 7 beta 1 or something like that exactly and and also you know they

0:26:41they have to have it ready a couple weeks ahead of the presentation so they

0:26:44can make the presentation and make sure that's gonna be solid right and you know

0:26:47it's the developer betas of iOS and Mac OS 10 they are betas I mean you know and

0:26:54it's just the people who, and somebody always does it, because it's new and shiny and they

0:27:01have to have the newest shiny thing, they go ahead and install it on their regular day-to-day

0:27:05iPhone an hour after it's available.

0:27:07You're never going to let me forget that.

0:27:08You did. I don't mean to, but you're an actual developer though, and you knew what you were

0:27:13getting into. You did that at WWDC.

0:27:16Yeah, I did it for iOS 5. I will never do it again.

0:27:21I actually remember where I was when I gave you shit about it. We were in the lobby at

0:27:24at the W. No, we were in a taxi going somewhere. Oh, no. I thought it was. But wasn't it when

0:27:30we left the W? I remember being in the... I think there were multiple shit-given occasions

0:27:34there. Yeah, I remember being in the lobby bar at the W Hotel and you were like, "Damn,

0:27:39this doesn't work." And I'm like, "What did you think?" But that's, you know, even given

0:27:47the fact that bugginess is excusable and understandable and that's the whole reason that it's a beta

0:27:51and it's not actually released, it has to be, there's a certain minimal functionality

0:27:55that has to be there.

0:27:58Right. And almost all of the headlining features, whatever those are going to be, those have

0:28:05to be at least working. They don't have to be done, but they have to be demo-able to

0:28:10some degree. They have to be functional.

0:28:12Right.

0:28:13And that's going to be tough.

0:28:16Was Siri functional last year? I think it was, right?

0:28:19I think so.

0:28:20Yeah.

0:28:21Well, no, Ciri didn't come as the WVDC release. Ciri came as, I think, a 4.1 or 5.1 kind of

0:28:30thing when the 4S actually came out.

0:28:32Oh, that's right. That's right. That explains why. Yeah, that's right.

0:28:39I'm looking forward to 7, though. I want to see what they do. We don't really know how

0:28:47much is going to change since 4Stall's been out, because he hasn't been out for that

0:28:51long. And so, you know, it's going to be hard to really look at 7 and say, "Wow, this was

0:28:56all Johnny Ive stuff." Like, certainly, it's going to be a lot of difference, but it hasn't

0:29:02been long enough for us to see the full effects of what that major change in design leadership

0:29:07is going to lead to.

0:29:11And to Patch Kowski and Satoriano's credit, especially Patch Kowski in his report, "At

0:29:15things deep. Again, I'm not real good with show notes, but I'll put it in the show notes.

0:29:21But anyway, a lot of this stuff I don't put in show notes because I've linked to it on

0:29:24Daring Fireball and I just presume that everybody out there who listens to this podcast listens

0:29:29or reads my site too. But Pat Czkowski had some quotes from sources at Apple, which was

0:29:35new, like people who are obviously familiar with what they're doing with Iowa 7 talking.

0:29:42There's no names, but it's still better than the rest of us have.

0:29:47I've talked to people, but I've not talked to anybody who'll let me quote them.

0:29:51I've not talked to anybody who's actually told me anything specific about what it actually

0:29:56looks like.

0:29:57What did the guy say?

0:30:00It's a deforestallation.

0:30:01It's impossible to pronounce a word.

0:30:05Right.

0:30:06It was funny.

0:30:07Somebody on Twitter—I wish I'd favorited it or something—but somebody on Twitter

0:30:10last night said, "What's this I hear about iOS 7? A deforestation?" Shame on Apple.

0:30:17The Wall Street Journal front page scandal ahead tomorrow.

0:30:20That's awesome.

0:30:21iOS 7 is going to lead the deforestation.

0:30:24Maybe the next New York Times Pulitzer?

0:30:26Yeah, I don't know. It's hard. I don't know. Seriously, I'm not being coy. I have

0:30:31not spoken to anybody who's actually seen iOS 7 and what the direction they're going

0:30:36and is... I don't know anybody who's actually seen it. What I've heard is people who've

0:30:40seen people who have seen it and know about those filters that they put over the phones.

0:30:46Yeah, the security filters. So you have to be looking at it at exactly the right angle

0:30:50to see it.

0:30:52And I also know that this is, in fact, the first time that they've done that, like with

0:30:57iOS 6 and 5 and 4 and 3, that the people who had the permission to carry the builds before

0:31:06was released on their personal phones outside the campus did not have those filters.

0:31:11Right. So obviously, that supports what we hear from everyone else, which is basically

0:31:16that it's a big change. Six didn't look that different. Six had a minor refresh on some

0:31:22of the gradients and some of the coloring and some of the shading, but it was a pretty

0:31:24minor overall difference in appearance. And if you were just looking across a bar and

0:31:30saw someone's phone on, you wouldn't really notice that that was something really different.

0:31:34But in this case, it sounds like they are prepared for that particular outcome and want

0:31:39to prevent that.

0:31:40And, you know, so it's different enough that you would notice.

0:31:43So one comment I've gotten from a couple people by email and Twitter.

0:31:49Here's one.

0:31:50It's a tweet that I noted from a reader named Sven Siewitz.

0:31:54Siewitz, S-E-W-I-T-Z.

0:31:56Sven, I hope I'm pronouncing your name right.

0:32:01He tweeted yesterday to me, "Johnny Ivan software.

0:32:05I fear he might take the fun out of the OS.

0:32:08Mac software has always had elements of playfulness."

0:32:12That's a sentiment that's perfectly expressed that a bunch of people have said, "Hey, this

0:32:18whole flat thing."

0:32:19I hate that term, but "This whole flat thing and the anti-skewomorphism, is this all going

0:32:26to be like no fun?"

0:32:28I don't think that's something anybody should be worried about.

0:32:33I think that there's a difference between the sort of exuberance-- I don't know what

0:32:42you want to call it-- the corniness even of Game Center.

0:32:46Game Center is one of the ones that they mentioned specifically, that it's not going to look

0:32:49like a craps table anymore.

0:32:51Well, in Game Center, I mean, Game Center was always like an extreme example of just

0:32:57something really, I mean, it was just really inexcusably bad because, you know, that was

0:33:02back from the, from various oddly into the Steve Jobs era and it was pretty clear throughout

0:33:08Steve's career that he did not really respect or understand the gaming market at all. And,

0:33:16And that's like, you know, if this is what they think gaming is, like this felt card

0:33:20table from a casino, like that's their interpretation of video games.

0:33:26I mean, it's like, it's so different from the actual world of video games, and it's

0:33:31so -- it betrays a deep misunderstanding or lack of respect of the gaming market.

0:33:37Right.

0:33:38So that's always been looked at as a very extreme example.

0:33:42Yeah.

0:33:43And I think that's a good way to put it.

0:33:44And again, I don't know.

0:33:47For all I know, it could be that the new look of iOS 7

0:33:51is completely sterile and no fun and unemotional and robotic.

0:33:57I don't know.

0:33:57But I don't think so.

0:33:59I'd be very surprised at that.

0:34:00Because I think the key word to keep in mind is--

0:34:03or one of them is emotion.

0:34:06And Apple is always designed for emotion.

0:34:10That stuff they make makes you feel a certain way.

0:34:13And I would say look no further than their product marketing,

0:34:15right?

0:34:16Their commercials and stuff.

0:34:17The latest one is the one with the iPhone camera,

0:34:19which I think is one of the best commercials they've

0:34:22had in a while.

0:34:24And there's nothing silly about it,

0:34:29like in the way that Game Center is silly,

0:34:31or the leather in the calendar app is silly.

0:34:37It's not silly, but it's definitely emotional.

0:34:40And it's definitely-- there's playfulness and fun.

0:34:42There's kids on skateboards.

0:34:44You know, there's-- it's not dead serious either, right?

0:34:49I feel like that's exactly what they'd probably

0:34:53be going for in a less textured, less fake 3D depth OS

0:35:02look and feel.

0:35:04Yeah, and we have to consider, too,

0:35:05what exactly their styling and where

0:35:08the fun and playfulness and emotion should come from.

0:35:11I mean, if they're going to give the default UI kit

0:35:15widgets new default styles, like they kind of did with iOS 6,

0:35:19but if they're going to do a more severe version of that,

0:35:22then what that's going to affect are apps that

0:35:24use the default UI kit widgets.

0:35:27And I mean, I think I could argue,

0:35:29and you would probably argue, that you probably

0:35:32shouldn't be looking to the default widgets

0:35:34to provide a whole lot of personality

0:35:35to your application.

0:35:36If you're going to want to add that emotion and personality,

0:35:39Or even if you're going to want an application that everyone says, "Wow, that's a fantastically

0:35:42designed app," these days you probably should not be using stock appearances of anything.

0:35:48You should be custom skinning almost everything or custom designing almost everything that

0:35:52your app uses, or at least tweaking the defaults. And if you look now, apps that use just the

0:35:57defaults, they don't show any emotion. They don't show much playfulness. Apps that use

0:36:03defaults today look old and terrible.

0:36:05Yeah, and there's certain... maybe there's some playfulness to it though. Like one thing

0:36:10is that the default look across iOS has a lot of glossiness, you know, and just starting

0:36:17even with app icons where if you do nothing, your app automatically gets that fake U-shaped

0:36:24gloss across the top third. And I know you can suppress that, you know, there's a way

0:36:28that you, you know, like in your P list file, you can suppress that by specifying something.

0:36:34But you get that by default. And most-- a lot of icons have that.

0:36:37And all their--

0:36:38Apple's icons have that.

0:36:39They do eat the dog food on that.

0:36:41If you look at--

0:36:45I think Safari has it.

0:36:46If not, they've-- yeah, they have it on Safari.

0:36:48But messages and phone and stuff like that,

0:36:51they have this glossicride that's across the top.

0:36:55You get it in the system standard alert box,

0:36:58that blue translucent thing that pops up

0:37:01you need to put your Apple ID password in or when it says, "Hey, you've got airplane

0:37:08mode on and this thing requires network access. Do you want to go to settings or cancel?"

0:37:14Everybody has seen that dialog box 10,000 times. It has that fake glossiness to it.

0:37:19Like that...

0:37:20A big swoop through the middle.

0:37:21That, I can guarantee you, that's going away. I don't know if they're going to completely

0:37:25redesign the look of that dialog, but the glossiness is going away.

0:37:30What I would love as a developer is for half of what I just said to be wrong.

0:37:36What I would love would be enough of a refresh of the default components that you can start

0:37:42using them again.

0:37:44Right now, if you release an app that uses default components, it will look old, just

0:37:49because the style is kind of outdated now.

0:37:51A lot of that still looks like 2007.

0:37:56And iOS 6 tamed some of it.

0:37:58They changed some of the gloss to just flat gradient, stuff

0:38:00like that.

0:38:01But there's still quite a lot of it there.

0:38:03And I would love, as a developer,

0:38:06to have better defaults again, or to make it easier

0:38:10to customize those defaults.

0:38:12Right now, if you want to pop up an alert dialog box, like what

0:38:15you were just talking about, with a custom look on it,

0:38:19you have to re-implement the entire alert dialog box

0:38:22yourself.

0:38:23You have to re-implement all the behavior of it yourself.

0:38:26And they've been slowly integrating more--

0:38:28the UI appearance stuff-- slowly integrating more of that

0:38:31into the OS since iOS 5.

0:38:32But there's still so many things that

0:38:35are so fixed in their default style

0:38:38that the most you can do maybe is tint them or replace

0:38:41the entire thing manually.

0:38:44And if the new defaults are kind of less heavy-handed

0:38:50with their looks, with their default looks,

0:38:53the default styles, if they're a little bit

0:38:55lighter and simpler, and if that's what people mean by flat,

0:38:58you know, if they're a little bit lighter and simpler,

0:39:00then it'll be better for everybody.

0:39:01It'll be better for developers,

0:39:03it'll be, you know, less old looking for users,

0:39:06and easier for designers to work with.

0:39:10- Yeah, and I think we've gotten some hints already

0:39:14about the direction they're going

0:39:16and maybe the magnitude of it.

0:39:18So one of them is the podcast app,

0:39:20the Apple podcast app, I think it's just called Podcasts.

0:39:24And the new version that came out a couple weeks ago

0:39:28is not just like a bug fix release

0:39:30compared to the original version.

0:39:32They famously got rid of the reel-to-reel tape recorder

0:39:36interface, which was--

0:39:40if that doesn't count--

0:39:41and there's all sorts of arguments

0:39:42about what counts as quote unquote "skeuomorphic."

0:39:44But that's as skeuomorphic as anything can get.

0:39:48I mean, it actually looked like a 3D reel-to-reel tape

0:39:51recorder.

0:39:51That's gone.

0:39:52But there's other things in the change, just aesthetic changes in there that like the buttons

0:39:57have become a lot less 3D. They don't look as much like physical buttons on a Braun tape

0:40:04recorder from 1965. They're just, you know, they're just, you know, a triangle for play

0:40:10and, you know, a thing for fast forward and stuff like that. If you look, if you Google

0:40:14for like, you know, the changes between the podcast app, it's not radical. It's not like

0:40:19unfamiliar. It's not like if you were already familiar with the old podcast app that now

0:40:24you're lost in the new one. It's, you know, just taking out some of the exuberance of

0:40:30the fake diviseness. I think it's, you know, and I'm not super down on the skeuomorphism,

0:40:39but I do think, though, that it's taken to the level that it has been in certain of the

0:40:43apps. It's dishonest. Yeah. And a lot of times it's unnecessarily clunky.

0:40:49That's, I think, where it gets in the way.

0:40:53People often cited "Find My Friends" and its crazy leather thing as being the epitome

0:40:58of bad skeuomorphism.

0:40:59I don't really think it was that bad.

0:41:00It was just a skin, and it didn't really interfere with how you use the app.

0:41:04It was just, that's just how the toolbars look.

0:41:06But the podcast app, with that giant reel-to-reel thing, that was actually interfering.

0:41:12It was taking up too much space.

0:41:14Things like gestures didn't work.

0:41:15The speed knob thing didn't work the way you'd expect it to, and it was hard to use. That's

0:41:21when it actually is a problem, when it gets in the way.

0:41:22Right, and it's dishonest. Here's a perfect reason why I use the word "dishonest," because

0:41:27if you have a real reel-to-reel tape, or any sort of tape, you have a real limiting factor

0:41:33in terms of seeking to go ahead. If you have an hour-long podcast, and you know that the

0:41:40part that you're interested in is 45 minutes in, and you're at the beginning, you've got

0:41:45to wait and hopefully, you know, and fast forward can only go so fast or else it's going

0:41:50to shred the tape.

0:41:51Right.

0:41:52And you've got to wait to get there.

0:41:53Well, there isn't, you know, one of the great advantages of going digital with our video

0:41:57and audio is we no longer have to do that.

0:42:00Right?

0:42:01And so using that as the metaphor, it's a false metaphor because all the limits that

0:42:05apply to actual, to tape or to a strip of film, you know, if you wanted to do that and

0:42:12have like, you know, carry that analogy to a video player and have a film projector.

0:42:16None of those, it doesn't hold up.

0:42:18Right.

0:42:19And that's why, that's always been my complaint with calculator apps and why I always prefer

0:42:23solver instead.

0:42:25Because like calculator apps, they would just mimic this old type of device, you know, the

0:42:30old calculators that would have this one line of digits and there'd be like no real backspacing

0:42:36ability.

0:42:37Like you can't like hit 100 plus and then go back and edit that number, you know.

0:42:40And there's all these stupid limitations

0:42:42of real calculators were carried on exactly directly

0:42:46to computer calculator apps, to almost all of them.

0:42:50There are very few that have broken that.

0:42:52And whereas Solver is rethinking the entire way,

0:42:57rethinking what a calculator is,

0:42:59because now it's a computer and you don't have to do

0:43:01all that old crap that you used to,

0:43:03and you don't have all those old limitations

0:43:04that you used to have.

0:43:05And skew-a-morphism gets in the way

0:43:07when it starts bringing in those limitations

0:43:10unnecessarily. Yeah. No, that's a good example. Says the guy who

0:43:14still loves p calc. But I agree with you. I do agree with you.

0:43:19But that's for me the reason and the main reason that I agree is

0:43:24that if I was doing something that would involve more than

0:43:26just one, you know, a couple of digits in a multiplier or

0:43:32something like that, I probably would use salt silver instead of

0:43:35p calc, like for, you know, it's a neat middle ground between

0:43:40what I might have in the old days gone to a spreadsheet for as opposed to a calculator.

0:43:44Whereas if I just want to multiply two numbers together, PCAL still works perfectly for me.

0:43:49There's a new version of PCALC out too.

0:43:52Every page.

0:43:53Great app.

0:43:54Here's a good example too, I think, of where Apple's going and why I don't think people

0:44:00who are worried about the fun or the playfulness being taken out of the OS, I think it's

0:44:05needless.

0:44:06And I think that these have been up for a couple of weeks now.

0:44:10Obviously, anybody who's listening to this show years from now, you know, you can't do

0:44:14it.

0:44:15But if you go and load apple.com now in two different tabs, once to get the iPad Hero

0:44:21layout, and once to get the iPhone Hero layout, you can see some of the apps, like third-party

0:44:29apps that Apple is celebrating.

0:44:31So on the iPad one, they've got two apps.

0:44:34I'm not sure what the one on the right is.

0:44:36some kind of photo app, but it's mainly a big photo of a little girl playing in a

0:44:42tent or in a balloon or something like that. But it's, you know, it's there

0:44:45because it shows the color and it's a happy kid. But if you look at the...

0:44:49One of those elementary school gym parachutes. Yeah, something like that. But if you look at

0:44:52the UI around it, though, there's no 3D depth to it. It looks good, but it's like

0:44:57just a translucent overlay to put text and thumbnails. Very... It is flat, I mean,

0:45:05but it's, you know, it's attractive.

0:45:06And in the other app that they're showing,

0:45:07they're showing letterpress, which, again,

0:45:11is not really flat.

0:45:12It actually does, and you can see it in the screenshot,

0:45:15it does use depth.

0:45:16It's when you play a tile, it pops off the screen

0:45:20three-dimensionally and, you know,

0:45:22so it's, that's why I say flat's not quite the right word.

0:45:25But, famously, it's relatively unadorned and minimal.

0:45:29But I think anybody who's played letterpress

0:45:32would realize that it's a very playful and fun interface.

0:45:39It's perfectly appropriate for a game,

0:45:43but in a way that is not at all like Game Center visually.

0:45:50Well, Letterpress achieves a lot of that fun and playfulness

0:45:53with gesture response and animations.

0:45:57And everything is very tactile.

0:45:59And it can be tactile without looking like a textured button.

0:46:05Certainly there are some design challenges there

0:46:08with usability and getting people

0:46:09to figure out what's touchable and what's draggable.

0:46:12But I think letterpress is a great example

0:46:15to show that it can be done in the flat aesthetic.

0:46:19It can still be done.

0:46:20And you don't have to make everything

0:46:23look like a 3D textured button for people

0:46:25to know that they can touch it.

0:46:27And then if you look at the iPhone Hero layout, it's three apps.

0:46:31They show one built-in photo app.

0:46:34And again, I think that's just to put a photo up there.

0:46:37But not a particularly skeuomorphic design.

0:46:41Then the two third-party apps.

0:46:42I don't know what the photo one is.

0:46:44Do you know?

0:46:46That is the Tumblr app.

0:46:48Oh, is it?

0:46:49OK.

0:46:49Wow.

0:46:50Yeah.

0:46:51I didn't even know that till just now.

0:46:52So there you go.

0:46:53It's the Tumblr app.

0:46:54Yeah, that's the Tumblr app.

0:46:54See, I don't use that.

0:46:55So I didn't know.

0:46:56And then there's, it's a notes, note-taking app called Catch

0:47:01that I actually just checked out last week.

0:47:03Not entirely flat, you know, it's,

0:47:07but it is more flat than a lot of apps, you know,

0:47:10it's flatter.

0:47:11Maybe that's the better way to describe,

0:47:13like I think the trend.

0:47:14It's not flat design.

0:47:16It's not Windows 8 style, completely flat,

0:47:19no textures, no gradients.

0:47:20It's just flatter.

0:47:21- See, and looking at this shot with,

0:47:24It shows a full screen photo in the camera roll,

0:47:30but with the toolbars showing.

0:47:32And so it has these semi-transparent, kind

0:47:34of glossy toolbars overlaying this photo.

0:47:37And to me, that looks old.

0:47:39Like, I think what we've seen for a while

0:47:42is that the default UI kit styles are out of style.

0:47:47And they've been holding on-- iOS 6 did a slight tweak,

0:47:50but they've been holding onto them still

0:47:52a little bit too long.

0:47:53But even if you go back to the iPad hero layout,

0:47:57I think one of the reasons they didn't put anything there

0:47:59that uses default widgets is because UIKit on the iPad

0:48:02has always looked horrible, I think.

0:48:04I mean, it's always been, you know,

0:48:06if you use the default UIKit navigation bars on top

0:48:10or if you use the default alerts,

0:48:12like it's always looked like a scaled up version

0:48:14of the iPhone.

0:48:15It's never really come into its own

0:48:16if you use the built-in stuff.

0:48:18And a lot of it just, I think, is ugly.

0:48:21Like, one of the things I loved most with doing the magazines app was that I finally

0:48:26could really replace the popover chrome.

0:48:30Because the default popover chrome, which is a border of a navy blue gradient thing,

0:48:37framing something with a deep shadow inset in the middle of it, that should always look

0:48:41like a hack.

0:48:43And until iOS 6, you could not fully replace it.

0:48:45iOS 5, you could change the chrome, but you were stuck with that weird inset shadow.

0:48:49and six, you could finally hide the shadow also.

0:48:52And so I think the popovers are some of the best looking

0:48:58interface I've ever done.

0:48:59Because-- well, I'm taking credit to Louis Mantilla,

0:49:02who actually drew it.

0:49:03And you're talking about the ones

0:49:04you get for the footnotes.

0:49:06For any popover.

0:49:07I replaced every popover in the magazines app for iPad.

0:49:10In fact, my goal with that was to not show any default

0:49:14Chrome ever.

0:49:15And the only time I do show default Chrome

0:49:17is logging into Instapaper, I have some text inputs

0:49:21and an alert box if you do it wrong.

0:49:23And then if you subscribe, then I have to show the systems

0:49:27in-app purchase dialogues, which look completely out of place

0:49:30in the rest of the app.

0:49:31But my goal there was to make this look well-designed,

0:49:35I'm going to have the entire app just be custom-designed.

0:49:38And that alone looks better than if you just use,

0:49:41like the default pop-overs I think look horrible.

0:49:43- I think it's a great design in the abstract.

0:49:46I love popovers as opposed to, and I think that popovers should be used a lot more in

0:49:53iPhone apps, not just iPad apps.

0:49:56Oh yeah, me too.

0:49:57I wish I could.

0:49:58There's tons of developers who have made their own popover class for iPhone because Apple's

0:50:03popover class only works on iPad.

0:50:04Right.

0:50:05I think that the iPhone, maybe just because it's called "phone," I think maybe like back

0:50:13in 2006 when they were cranking out and iterating on that initial design I think

0:50:20they got too caught up thinking about it as a phone and in traditional phones

0:50:23every time you got a new menu it would be a new screen and everything so many

0:50:27things are an entire screen and you go in and do it like you know just look at

0:50:32like when you do you when you want to toggle Bluetooth and you go to settings

0:50:37and you hit Bluetooth and you get an entire new screen just for a checkbox to

0:50:43toggle Bluetooth. Now, I do think it's important to have that checkbox be a nice, big, fat

0:50:49target like big 44 pixels in every dimension so that you have a nice, big, fat, thumb-friendly

0:50:55target. But why not just a popover that comes underneath it when you hit Bluetooth and settings

0:51:01that would give you the checkbox?

0:51:05I think this might change in the future as phone screens get bigger. The iPhone 5 already

0:51:11give us tons more real estate and then we'll see, you know, my prediction is that they're

0:51:14going to have a bigger screen iPhone fairly soon. You know, we'll see if that actually

0:51:18happens or not. I think the hint that Cook gave on the earnings call sounds like it might

0:51:24be happening soon. And, you know, I think as we see, I mean, one of the great values

0:51:30of bigger screen devices, including the crazy phablets that everybody hates, except for

0:51:35all the people who keep buying them, which is a lot of them, one of the great things

0:51:39about them is that you can bring you have more space to bring in some of the

0:51:43conveniences of tablets and tablet interfaces and you know you aren't

0:51:49limited to just these very very deep navigation stacks of full-screen things

0:51:53on a little phone screen yeah but to your point from a minute ago I do think

0:51:57that the iPad has suffered all three years of its life from having default

0:52:02default Chrome that really originates with the 2007 iPhone oh yeah and the

0:52:08scale is all wrong. Like, I can't even look, the screenshots of my first version of Instapaper

0:52:14for iPad are unbearable for me to see because it was just blowing up the iPhone interface.

0:52:21It was everything that you would never do today if you were designing a new iPad app.

0:52:27I did everything wrong in that first version because I didn't have an iPad yet. I designed

0:52:32it before anyone had iPads so it would be there on day one and as soon as it was out

0:52:36realized, "Oh man, this is... I got some work to do. This is bad."

0:52:41I had forgotten that you're the guy who did Instapaper.

0:52:43Yeah, it's been so long. Yeah, it's been so long. I had totally forgotten

0:52:48about that. That the other weird thing about the evolution

0:52:54of iOS over the years, because now, you know, it's been six years, right? This is six years

0:53:00since we've had the original iPhone, is that if you compare it to Mac OS X, Mac OS

0:53:06Mac OS X has undergone numerous aesthetic tweaks every, you know, two or three revisions

0:53:13or so, you know, and it's slowly evolved what the default look and feel of the system is

0:53:19every couple of years and has never gone this long, not six years, with so many of the elements

0:53:27looking exactly the same.

0:53:30But if you look at the way that, like, you know, whenever there has been a visual refresh

0:53:35in Mac OS X, like the time that they got rid of brushed metal

0:53:39and just replaced everything with the, you know,

0:53:42the non-brushed metal windows, the brushed metal windows, all of them, all of a sudden

0:53:46looked exactly the same.

0:53:49Which is, you know, in some ways, in terms of like the textures and the actual

0:53:53pixels you see on screen, that was a pretty major change.

0:53:57But, nobody who was a Mac user

0:53:59was lost or confused or,

0:54:02"Oh my god, where is everything?

0:54:04I don't know how to use my computer."

0:54:07Like that's to me is what I think they're going to do

0:54:10with iOS 7.

0:54:11Like I don't think,

0:54:12and that's the other concern I've seen out there,

0:54:14that, oh my god, if my parents,

0:54:16I just got my parents an iPhone last year,

0:54:19and now they're going to what?

0:54:21To get an automatic upgrade to iOS 7,

0:54:23and then they're gonna call me

0:54:25and they can't find anything, right?

0:54:27I don't think it's gonna be that type of,

0:54:28I don't think that's what they're working on at all.

0:54:31I think it's like when they change the way the windows look in Mac OS X.

0:54:34Right.

0:54:35Right?

0:54:36There's still a red button up in the corner that you use to close the window.

0:54:40You know, there's still an Apple menu up in the top left corner where you go to get to

0:54:44system preferences and stuff like that.

0:54:46I think too, you know, you can look at the trend that they've been doing with OS X design

0:54:51and with Mac.

0:54:52Oh, didn't they drop the word Mac?

0:54:54I don't know what to call it anymore.

0:54:55Yeah.

0:54:56I still like calling it Mac OS X though.

0:54:58To me, it immediately emphasizes the word Mac,

0:55:02whereas otherwise with OS X and iOS, OS is at the middle of it,

0:55:06and I have to think about which one is which.

0:55:10Right.

0:55:11Anyway, with Mac OS X, Mac in brackets there,

0:55:14I think the trend has been very clearly towards less

0:55:19ornamentation for the most part, and making the default Chrome

0:55:23be less visually noisy, and making it easier

0:55:26to ignore or forget about.

0:55:29And iOS started out being the complete opposite of that,

0:55:33with all this very heavy-handed visual kurama

0:55:35as all the defaults.

0:55:36And so, as I said earlier,

0:55:38if they move towards a more subtle default look,

0:55:43then people who make custom-designed apps

0:55:47are still gonna make very high-personality designs.

0:55:50Now, that's not gonna be a risk,

0:55:52but it'll just make everything else a little bit less,

0:55:56I don't know, saccharin.

0:55:57- Yeah, that's a good way to put it.

0:56:01So yeah, I think we're on the same page

0:56:05in terms of the scope of the sort of redesign

0:56:07that we're gonna see.

0:56:09I don't typically, this is the last point I'll make on this,

0:56:12is I don't typically do the game

0:56:14where you read into Apple's invitations,

0:56:17the design of the invitation,

0:56:20and try to interpret what it means

0:56:22about what they're going to announce.

0:56:25But I know a lot of people have taken this whole flat UI,

0:56:27you know, that they're going to get rid of this.

0:56:29And then they look at the WWDC logo.

0:56:32Yeah.

0:56:33And they say, well, that must be the direction they're going.

0:56:36And maybe there's something to that, you know?

0:56:39Because the one thing I noticed with that,

0:56:41it's like a stack of these vibrant primary color, like--

0:56:46Gels.

0:56:47Yeah, like app shapes, right, though?

0:56:49It's the--

0:56:50Yeah, it's the round rec, the icons.

0:56:51The round square.

0:56:52It's like if somebody cut out an icon's shape out of lighting gels and stacked them up.

0:56:57Right. But they're not, you know, there's no gloss on them. But there is depth, right?

0:57:03And there is translucency. So, you know, again, I think it's like a don't throw the baby out

0:57:08with the bathwater. I don't think that, you know, I really, really would be shocked if

0:57:13they went full on, like, Windows 8, no depth, sharp.

0:57:18You know, I didn't notice that until now. But now that you mention it, I'm looking at

0:57:21and on the corners, especially on the left side of the low,

0:57:23you can see there are shadows between each layer,

0:57:26so it does show depth,

0:57:27that this isn't just a pile of lighting gels

0:57:30that are just flat and have no meaningful depth.

0:57:32This is a pile of, it's more like letterpress tiles.

0:57:34- Right.

0:57:35- Because it's a stack of things

0:57:36that have some depth to them,

0:57:39but the things themselves are flat.

0:57:41I don't know, yeah, this could be interesting.

0:57:43- Yeah.

0:57:43- If this really is an indicator.

0:57:44- I'm stealing it from our friend Brad Ellis,

0:57:48great user interface designer now at Pacific Helm.

0:57:53But the line I've heard from him is,

0:57:56if you're going to have something stacked visually

0:57:59on the z-axis in your UI, and it's going to have a shadow,

0:58:03it doesn't have to be four inches off the surface.

0:58:06Like, just a little, just a tiny little bit goes a long way.

0:58:11Whereas I think that that original 2007 iOS design

0:58:15is everything.

0:58:16if it has a shadow, it's like four inches of shadow.

0:58:20- Right, exactly.

0:58:22And Six actually made that worse.

0:58:23Six made the shadow depth bigger on some things,

0:58:25and it even added shadows where there weren't any before,

0:58:28like under navigation bars and above toolbars.

0:58:31There's now, by default, there's a shadow there.

0:58:34And before Six, that wasn't there.

0:58:36- Let me take a break here and thank our second sponsor.

0:58:41Our second sponsor is a very interesting company.

0:58:46It's Transporter.

0:58:48It's the name of the product, and the company is Connected Data.

0:58:51And it's a team.

0:58:55You go to their website and you can check it out.

0:58:56They tell you this.

0:58:57This is the team that originally made the Drobo.

0:59:00And what they've done is the team that made the Drobo has gotten together,

0:59:04and they've made a thing.

0:59:06You buy it.

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0:59:08It's a physical device that you have in your hand.

0:59:12Put a hard drive in it.

0:59:14You connect it to the internet and you sign up with Transporter and that drive is accessible

0:59:20anywhere.

0:59:23They'll say this too.

0:59:24It's not like I'm mentioning Dropbox and it's uncouth because it's sort of a competitor.

0:59:30No, they actually – it's sort of like having your own private Dropbox.

0:59:35They sent me one to let me try it out.

0:59:40It works great.

0:59:41It's very simple to set up.

0:59:43you buy it, you just plug it in, you install the software on your computer,

0:59:46and it's like you have your own little private Dropbox. And so instead of it's

0:59:52cloud access being the access is everywhere and where is your stuff

0:59:57stored is I don't know it's out there. The where is my stuff stored is right

1:00:03here and you know where it is and so there's a privacy layer and the cloud

1:00:08aspect that they've solved is punching a hole through your local network to the

1:00:14internet at large so that you can access the stuff from anywhere and what you can

1:00:19also do is if you anybody else like if you sign up for their service you don't

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1:01:58So you get cloud-style access from anywhere, over the web or on your Mac or Windows through

1:02:04the transporter software, which puts a folder right in your finder so you can see it all.

1:02:13But you get the privacy of storing your data on your own hard drive.

1:02:19So it's really, really interesting.

1:02:22great. They have apps for the iPad and iPhone, no surprise. You can use it. It's

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1:02:42That's pretty cool. It's very cool. See, what I like about this is that they

1:02:48don't need to, like, act in denial that Dropbox exists.

1:02:52Exactly. That's a great way to put it.

1:02:54A lot of things are like, you know, you hear about something and you're like, "Well, why

1:02:56don't I just use X?" You know, and, you know, because X is better or free or whatever. And

1:03:02in this case, I think this is like, this is some really concrete advantages over Dropbox.

1:03:06And so they don't have to, like, hope you don't hear about Dropbox.

1:03:09Exactly. No, that's exactly why I brought it up. Let me tell you what to do to find

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1:04:53to sign up for the service so there's no monthly fee you just buy the device and

1:04:59then you you get to use it my thanks to transporter for sponsoring the show

1:05:04let's see what else we got Winky you see the Winky app it is as creepy as it

1:05:12sounds yet it isn't what it sounds like Winky is a is an app somebody's developed

1:05:17for Google Glass that lets you take photos by winking so you don't have to

1:05:23say okay glass take a photo you could just wink your eye and it starts snapping

1:05:27photos?

1:05:28You know, I think you can… I mean, I think every generation, as we get older, looks at

1:05:37the newest technology at some point in their lives and says, "I don't understand why

1:05:42anybody would want that. That's going to be so problematic for our culture." Whatever.

1:05:48And maybe this is my moment to do that, but I just cannot understand Google Apps. I don't

1:05:54and why anybody would want to wear that on their face all the time. I don't understand

1:05:59why any right-thinking person would trust Google with all that extra data on them. And

1:06:04I don't understand why Google thought it would be a good thing for society if everybody

1:06:08started wearing these things. I mean, there's so many problems, including the picture-taking

1:06:13aspect of like, you know, there's a problem enough where you kind of don't know if someone's

1:06:17paying attention to you, even if they're looking right at you, sort of. And then there's

1:06:21it was the secondary problem of like, now it's even easier than it was. And we've already

1:06:25made it pretty easy as a society to take photos and videos covertly with our phones. But now

1:06:32Google is trying to bring it even more mainstream in a way that is even easier to take photos

1:06:38or videos of people without their knowledge. And that's, I just think that's kind of creepy

1:06:44in so many ways. Plus, I mean, you look ridiculous with the thing on. But besides that, I think

1:06:49it's just it's just kind of socially kind of gross yeah I want to write about

1:06:54this I have to get it out of my system is sort of a why I'm so down on Google

1:06:59class and I'm not against heads-up displays in general right and I'm not

1:07:07denying that there's a bright future in them and that you know that the amazing

1:07:11stuff is going to happen in the next decade or two along the lines of this

1:07:17it's this particular product in the current configuration that I just think

1:07:25is absurd right and it gets back I don't know if you listen the last week's show

1:07:28but like moltz pointed out a thing I wrote back in 2003 about the quote-unquote

1:07:33iPhone and that I said that you know it was like a New York Times story that's

1:07:37that claimed in 2003 that Apple was working on a I thing that they call the

1:07:44iPhone that ran a stripped-down version of Mac OS X and involved apps like Sherlock and

1:07:49stuff like that.

1:07:51And what they said was, you know, the article made it seem as though that it was something

1:07:55that might come out like next year.

1:07:58And it wasn't true.

1:07:59It wasn't -- I wrote, "That's impossible.

1:08:00There is no technology that would do it."

1:08:02And I was right.

1:08:03There was no --

1:08:04HOFFMAN, Off-screen -- less space than a nomad, lame.

1:08:05SIMON ROGERS Right.

1:08:06But it wasn't -- I didn't say that Apple would never be able to make a device that would

1:08:10would run a stripped-down version of OS X and, you know, like a cell phone or something

1:08:15like that, and that would have software like that. What I was saying was impossible was

1:08:19that in 2003, it was impossible, and that they weren't working on anything like that.

1:08:25And in fact, they weren't, right? It was – they were working on a tablet-type thing. Like,

1:08:28the thing that eventually became the iPhone was in some level of work, but it was more

1:08:32like they had the idea that it was like a tablet-type thing.

1:08:35The story that I said wasn't true in 2003 wasn't true. It does seem funny in hindsight,

1:08:39though because that is actually what they ended up doing four years later.

1:08:42It's the same thing with Google Glass where I'm not denying that there won't

1:08:46be cool and maybe even possibly useful wearable headset type things eventually.

1:08:54But this one is not. This one is ridiculous. It looks stupid.

1:09:01Yeah. Well, and yeah, it looks like a medical device.

1:09:04Right. Doesn't it? It looks like some kind of like enhanced hearing and visual aid.

1:09:09but not in a tech way, in a medical assistance way.

1:09:13Right, or something that you might have to wear for certain jobs, you know?

1:09:17Yeah, if you're like inspecting a plane in the airport, walking around the runway

1:09:23wearing one of these things with a clipboard in your hand.

1:09:24Right, and I could even see that there are uses, especially the camera part, that if you,

1:09:32even if you look stupid, I could see it how it, for certain people, it might be useful to have a

1:09:39have a stupid looking camera that you wear like this over your eyes so that you can get

1:09:44a first person perspective while you do something where you want your hands free. Right? Like

1:09:50so you can make, I don't know, like the one that Google even made. Like if you're going

1:09:54to take a video while you jump out of an airplane with a parachute, well, I don't know. You

1:09:58don't want to have a camera in your hands. That's for sure.

1:10:01Right. I mean, and you can look at aspects of this and you can say, okay, well, the technology

1:10:06will get better in Area X, so that's not going to be a problem for long. I think you

1:10:11can look at especially things like size and battery life. You can say, "Okay, well,

1:10:15those will get better over time." It will get smaller. It will look sleeker. The battery

1:10:20life will get longer. But I think the social aspects of it are the big, long-term, what-the-fuck

1:10:30moment.

1:10:31And, you know, I guess, you know, and again, I'm right there with you, where maybe it's

1:10:36just that we're too old and we're getting curmudgeonly and we just, you know, stuck

1:10:42in the mud and we're, you know, already old-fashioned.

1:10:45Because I could see how if, you know, you went back to the '80s and told somebody about

1:10:50how all of us have little pocket computers with three, four-inch screens that we check

1:10:57all the time and if we go out to dinner and you go to the bathroom, I'm going to get my

1:11:02phone out until you come back.

1:11:05I could see how someone would say, "Well, that sounds like hell on earth of everybody

1:11:10always looking at these computer screens."

1:11:14Whereas I see it as, "My God, it's a relief from boredom."

1:11:17It's great.

1:11:18I try never – like if I'm at dinner with people, I try never to be on my phone while

1:11:23we're at the table together, but if I'm out with one person and that person gets up, I usually take

1:11:29out my phone. I don't know. I do that and I can see how that's, you know, there's like a slope

1:11:38along the lines of, well, how far away is that from having your computer always in your field

1:11:44of visual stream in your glasses? That it's, you know, it's along the same continuum. But to me,

1:11:49that goes over this border that to me is just ridiculous. Yeah and you know we

1:11:56don't know how that's going to change over time with with generations and

1:12:01social stuff. Like I think there was this great video I'm trying I think it might

1:12:05have been by Dan Savage maybe? I'll have to find it and put it in your

1:12:14in your non-existent show notes but there was this great video where this

1:12:17guy was talking about, I think it was back with the governor or senator, Wiener, whatever

1:12:24that was, when he sent his pictures of his junk to people and then they got out.

1:12:28He was a congressional representative from New York, New York City.

1:12:33Right. So there was a big deal about that. And he made this video about it afterwards.

1:12:39It's on YouTube somewhere. I've got to find it. And I think it's Dan Savage, but I'm not

1:12:42positive on that. And he basically said, "Yeah, today our politicians are so afraid of pictures

1:12:52of their junk getting out that if it does happen, then you're like, 'Well, that's pictures

1:12:57of someone's junk. I don't know.' You try to deny it. And then at some point, the tide

1:13:04will change socially because everyone's having pictures of their junk all over the place,

1:13:08especially if you're younger, and sending it all over the place." I'm so glad to acknowledge

1:13:11like this did not exist when I was younger.

1:13:13(laughing)

1:13:15And then eventually, a politician can get up there

1:13:19and say, "Yeah, that's my junk.

1:13:21"Of course, who cares?"

1:13:23Eventually, the times will shift in social tolerance

1:13:27of certain things that it will just become normal.

1:13:32And so I think with my concerns with Google Glass

1:13:36of it kinda sucks when you can't tell

1:13:39someone's looking at a screen overlaid over your face or looking at you, and it kind of

1:13:44sucks if everyone can be taking pictures or video all the time and you can't even tell

1:13:48if they're doing it or not. You know, all those things make me nervous, but having a

1:13:54cell phone in my pocket that can take a quick picture or video makes other people nervous,

1:13:59especially older people, in older contexts. You know, it's like everything we're doing

1:14:04is adding more things that make people uncomfortable

1:14:07who are older or who are more conservative.

1:14:11And we keep pushing that boundary back

1:14:13in all these other ways.

1:14:14We've been pushing it back for decades.

1:14:17So maybe this is just the next step of that.

1:14:19But I don't know.

1:14:20This to me seems like it crosses a line

1:14:23that shouldn't be crossed.

1:14:26And I think we'd actually be worse off

1:14:27if that line was crossed.

1:14:29But I don't know.

1:14:30People probably say the exact same thing about camera phones.

1:14:34Yeah, probably.

1:14:35You know, I see my difference with that is, and what's his name?

1:14:39I don't know how you pronounce his name.

1:14:41He's the guy who writes the OS news site, Tom Holwerda.

1:14:44I don't know.

1:14:46T-H-O-M.

1:14:47You know who I'm talking about.

1:14:50I know the site.

1:14:51But he, Twitter replied me yesterday after I linked to the Winky app and my only comment

1:15:01was a fake quote from a hypothetical Glass user saying, "Okay, Glass, let's be creepy."

1:15:10And his Twitter thing was, "Oh, come on." Because he's a huge Glass enthusiast. He's

1:15:15super excited about Glass and thinks that I'm being some either like a Pollyanna or

1:15:25combination of a prude and a if it isn't from Apple it's crap zealot which the

1:15:34Pollyanna part the the prude part maybe is true that's what we're talking about

1:15:38the Apple part man I would be so depressed if Apple came out with Google

1:15:42Glass it's exactly like this I would think I would then then that's I in some

1:15:48sense it would be great though and I've talked about this before because man I

1:15:51Nothing would be better for my reputation than for me to have something to really dig

1:15:56into and just rip Apple apart on.

1:15:58Like, you know, I don't do it because they haven't released anything that I think is

1:16:03terrible, you know, but it would be great.

1:16:04Right.

1:16:05I mean, they have, but they've been smaller things.

1:16:06Right.

1:16:07You know, like the iPod HiFi was a massive flop.

1:16:10But who cares?

1:16:11It was a speaker dock.

1:16:12You know, no one—it wasn't like a big PR problem for them to release a speaker dock

1:16:16that was actually a pretty decent speaker dock, just too expensive.

1:16:20But the difference, yeah, and the difference,

1:16:24his reply to me was, oh come on,

1:16:26like nobody's taken a surreptitious picture before?

1:16:31Like it's not happening all the time now?

1:16:32And that is true, people do sneak photos, you know,

1:16:36and you can be creepy by taking photos with your phone now.

1:16:40But there's a physical,

1:16:42there are physical limitations to it, right?

1:16:44Like you have to be sly about it.

1:16:48And so yes, somebody could take a picture of you in someplace

1:16:52where you don't want to be photographed,

1:16:54and you don't know it, and you may not notice them doing it.

1:16:58Presumably, especially if the flash is off on the computer

1:17:02or on the camera, obviously.

1:17:04But they have to work at it.

1:17:07It's not they're strapped to their forehead always,

1:17:11constantly.

1:17:12I would find it so uncomfortable if I went out to dinner

1:17:17and somebody just had their phone up

1:17:19and in a position that looked like it was filming

1:17:23a video of the entire meal.

1:17:25And I don't know if they're--

1:17:26Exactly.

1:17:26I don't know if they're doing it or not,

1:17:28but they're holding it up the entire time.

1:17:29Well, to me, that's what it would

1:17:31be like going out to dinner with Scoble with his glasses on.

1:17:36Glass on, I guess.

1:17:37You have to--

1:17:38Who knows how you--

1:17:39--singularize it.

1:17:40I think also it's worth considering

1:17:44If you are a user of Google Glass,

1:17:47do you want Google getting all that information

1:17:51from your face all the time?

1:17:53- Right.

1:17:53- Do you want Google to know

1:17:55that you just loosed up the waitress's butt?

1:17:57And what are they gonna do with that information?

1:18:00They're an advertising company.

1:18:02People think Google just does some of this stuff

1:18:04for the fun of doing it,

1:18:06and some of their projects do seem like

1:18:07they're just kind of engineering for fun,

1:18:09although since Google+ has come out

1:18:11and the company's focus has been shifted,

1:18:13you can tell those have been lessened in the company.

1:18:15But at the end of the day,

1:18:17they gotta make this a business somehow.

1:18:19They have to make it work with the rest of their businesses.

1:18:21And the way they're going to do that, in all likelihood,

1:18:24is by tying this in extremely deeply

1:18:28with everything they know about you,

1:18:30which is their business.

1:18:31Their business is to know as much as they possibly can

1:18:33about you so they can charge more for the ads

1:18:36that get shown to you.

1:18:38And so when you look at it from that perspective,

1:18:41it just feels kind of dirty.

1:18:43Like, wait, do I really want Google

1:18:45to know every minute of every day of my life what I'm doing?

1:18:50It's bad enough that I'm carrying a phone in my pocket.

1:18:53If you have an Android phone, then you

1:18:55can already do quite a lot of that stuff today.

1:18:58But it's different when it's your face.

1:19:01When your phone is this thing that you can kind of put away,

1:19:04and technology is such that phones can't really

1:19:08afford the battery problems of keeping GPS on all the time.

1:19:12So they at least aren't live tracking you precisely yet.

1:19:17But who knows in the future?

1:19:19There was that thing this week with the Google Now app

1:19:21burning battery time on iPhones.

1:19:23That's exactly what I was going to say.

1:19:25We're segueing perfectly into the next thing.

1:19:28Well, and there's a thing--

1:19:31I'm not even sure I completely understand the why of it

1:19:36and the way that knowing your location helps Google serve you ads and stuff better.

1:19:43And part of it, obviously, is not even about advertising or creepiness, and really is.

1:19:47And this is why I think it is so insidious, because there's obviously usefulness to it,

1:19:54where in theory, if they know where you are and you say, hey, I'm hungry,

1:20:02I'm in the mood for pizza but I don't you know this is I'm not familiar with

1:20:06this neighborhood it's useful if they know where you are and can say you know

1:20:11there's a well-regarded pizza place two blocks over to the left right and you

1:20:17know and if they know even more about you and they know and you've you have

1:20:21you know a Google+ the pizza restaurants that you've been to in the past and

1:20:31and said, "I like this one and I don't like that one," that they can, if they have millions

1:20:36of users, that they can correlate all of that and say, "Given the type of pizza that you've

1:20:40said you've liked before and the ones you've said you don't like, this is almost certainly

1:20:44a pizza place that you're going to like." And that, if it's accurate and it works, that's

1:20:48-- that is -- I do understand that is useful, right? That's the whole pro-Google argument.

1:20:53Right. Well, it's useful sometimes. It's useful when you have purchasing intent. And so if

1:21:01you think about these examples, and that makes sense. You think about these examples of,

1:21:07where should I go eat pizza right now? You have purchasing intent. And that's what Google—Seth

1:21:11Godin did a talk about this a while ago. There's a video of it online somewhere. But that's

1:21:16what Google and their advertising model excels at. And that's why Facebook's advertising

1:21:20model sucks.

1:21:21Google's advertising model excels at that

1:21:23because it's really easy to sell ads against purchasing intent.

1:21:27If you're searching for something like,

1:21:28what kind of coffee maker do I need to get from my office?

1:21:32Then that's a great place for not only Google

1:21:35to recommend things to you based on knowledge it has from Yelp

1:21:39or user reviews or whatever, but they can also then integrate

1:21:42ads really well into that in a way

1:21:43that the ads are not trying to distract you.

1:21:46The ads are actually possibly helpful to you.

1:21:48And same thing with-- that's why local search matters so much

1:21:52to them, because it's the same kind of thing, where

1:21:55if you are looking for a pizza place around you,

1:21:58that's a great time for Google to not only use all this data

1:22:01they know about you to give you better recommendations,

1:22:04but then for them to be able to go and sell that

1:22:07to the advertisers, for them to go to local advertisers,

1:22:09for local advertisers to be able to say,

1:22:11I'll pay you $1.50 to put my ad on top

1:22:13and put a yellow box around it.

1:22:15And so in all those contexts, that's great.

1:22:19It's great for Google, and it actually

1:22:21is kind of helpful for the user at those times.

1:22:24The problem is all the other times,

1:22:26when you don't have that purchasing intent,

1:22:28or when you're doing something that is not

1:22:30commercial in nature or that you don't think

1:22:32of as commercial in nature, and they kind of surprise you

1:22:36with either an ad that you weren't expecting,

1:22:39or they surprise you with knowledge

1:22:42that they have that you didn't think they had about you

1:22:45or what you did or what you intend and that's when it that's when it gets

1:22:48creepy yeah and you know and Amy has run into this recently where she's noticed

1:22:54and she's you know called my attention to it with her computer where like

1:23:00she'll she'll have searched for and who knows even if it's Google I might you

1:23:05know I don't even know it might be through some other similar to type

1:23:09aggregate collection of stuff we're like she searched for product X like four

1:23:15days ago. And now she's on this other website that isn't even related to that product and

1:23:21here are ads for exactly what she was searching for four days ago.

1:23:26Yup.

1:23:27Right?

1:23:28And it's not like a general audience thing like that. It was definitely not a coincidence.

1:23:30Right. And it, the result is not, "Oh yeah, I should buy that." The result is, "I am creeped

1:23:36out and I'm going to tell my nerd husband and, you know, this is freaking me out." Right?

1:23:44It is creepy.

1:23:45And that to me is where I see that Google and I really do think Google has shifted over

1:23:51the second half of its life.

1:23:53In the first couple of years of its life, it just seemed amazing and helpful in the

1:23:59second half of its life.

1:24:01And especially I think, even though I think Eric Schmidt is a pretty creepy guy, I think

1:24:06it's really accelerated though since Larry Page took over as CEO.

1:24:09Yeah, it's really accelerated since Facebook really. Since Facebook got so big that it

1:24:14started becoming an obvious threat to many of their core markets.

1:24:17Yeah, I think that really is the – I think – and again, correlation is not causation,

1:24:23but boy, the correlation is very strong that when Facebook got big and when it became clear

1:24:29that Facebook was not the next MySpace but was going to be a standalone thing and they're

1:24:37to be acquired there they've reached the critical mass where they were going to IPO which was

1:24:42far in advance of you know years in advance of when they actually did IPO like it was a long you

1:24:48know there were a couple of years there where it was clear that Facebook was going to eventually

1:24:52IPO and no you know Google wasn't going to have a chance to buy Facebook uh that's when it does seem

1:24:58like that they really had like a freak out and have really gotten creepy about the personal stuff

1:25:05And any and and so it all goes back to the location

1:25:07I mean not all but in terms of what we're talking about here is that they really want to know where you are

1:25:14like all day every day and

1:25:16I find that in the context of everything else Google is doing very very disturbing and it it

1:25:23I think it's actually the root. I think you know in terms of their desire to know where you are. I

1:25:31I think is the entire reason that Apple Maps exists.

1:25:36Oh, yeah, definitely.

1:25:37You know, and I feel like everybody has this wide--

1:25:40and it's held up as the criticism of Tim Cook as a CEO,

1:25:45and that Apple--

1:25:46it's all of these stories, these, hey, Apple's hit a rough patch,

1:25:51Apple's doing poorly.

1:25:53Inevitably, they bring up Apple Maps,

1:25:55and that Apple Maps is a disaster and a shit show,

1:25:57and it's terrible and inexplicable.

1:26:01Well, it's not inexplicable.

1:26:02I think it's that Google--

1:26:04and some of this I actually know-- is that Google,

1:26:07to up the offering in terms of getting the vector maps

1:26:13instead of the bitmap map tiles and turn-by-turn direction

1:26:18for driving, which was sorely missing from iOS,

1:26:22that they wanted--

1:26:24they were-- their deal was that if you want that from us,

1:26:27you've got to let us let people sign into their Google account

1:26:31And that would let us track their location

1:26:35through their iPhone, through the built-in maps

1:26:37functionality that ties to our maps.

1:26:39And Apple was not willing to budge on it.

1:26:41And so they were so unwilling to budge

1:26:43on that in terms of the privacy implications

1:26:46that they went ahead and shipped a map service that they--

1:26:51and I know that--

1:26:52I think it's probably a little bit worse than they expected

1:26:54in terms of the reaction.

1:26:56But I think that they knew that it wasn't going to be--

1:26:59wasn't going to be as good as Google Maps. And they did it anyway for the privacy reasons.

1:27:06Yeah, I don't... For some reason, you know, with Apple it's very, very clear to everyone

1:27:12where they make their money. So it's... Most people don't ascribe weird motivations to

1:27:17Apple's business decisions. Usually it's just, "Well, okay, they want to charge more for

1:27:21that," or, "They want you to buy this thing." But yet, with Google, it seems like most people

1:27:26just kind of give them a pass, especially nerds, because Google did have a very long

1:27:32period where they really did things that really appealed to people like us. As you said, the

1:27:38first half of their life, they really, really appealed to people like us because they were

1:27:42a nerdy company doing nerdy things and with seemingly little care about making money because

1:27:47they owned the online ad business pretty early on in their lifetime, especially the search

1:27:52ad business at least, not display ads for a while, but they owned the search ad business

1:27:57pretty quickly and they were making tons of money. And so I think it was easy to stay

1:28:03in that kind of small, geeky, engineering-driven spirit and keep making things that endeared

1:28:08them to us. But now that spirit's been gone for a couple of years at least. I think it's

1:28:16probably longer than that. Certainly the spirit is certainly not there at the moment. And

1:28:22I think you can look at that honestly and say, "Well, okay, they grew up. They had to

1:28:29make a lot of these moves." But so many people in our circles or so many nerds like us still

1:28:36kind of give them a pass on their motivations and why they are doing things and where their

1:28:40money is going to come from. It's not that they look at what Google is doing and say,

1:28:44I'm okay with that," it's that they don't even think about it in their mind, like,

1:28:48"Wait, so what's their motivation for doing this? What's in it for them

1:28:51here? How are they gonna pay for this?" etc. And so Google can be doing some

1:28:58pretty creepy or questionable things and get relatively little skepticism or

1:29:03relatively little scrutiny, I should say, from the geek audience. Yeah, in a way

1:29:09that Facebook doesn't, because Facebook has somehow, like, their initial

1:29:14first impression of them was that they were going to do these sort of things.

1:29:19Right. And I think, to be fair, I think Facebook is pretty creepy overall as well.

1:29:24Right.

1:29:25And what Facebook had—one of the design challenges Facebook has always had,

1:29:30and you can see they've failed a few times on this, is that Facebook and Google's the same way.

1:29:36They both have enough data on you that if you knew what they knew, you'd be creeped out.

1:29:41creeped out. And so they always have to kind of hide what they know or use restraint in

1:29:46designing new features or designing the interfaces to things or designing how they reveal what

1:29:50they know about you to avoid creeping you out with data they already have or inferences

1:29:56they can already draw about you. And I heard something like Facebook can tell when you're

1:30:02going to break up with your girlfriend before you can. There's all sorts of things like

1:30:07like that, like there's, like Facebook knows a lot about you.

1:30:09But in, you know, the recent history where Google

1:30:13has been kind of pushing into social so hard,

1:30:16I think we've seen a pretty clear pattern

1:30:18that while they both have enough data on you

1:30:20to appear quite creepy if they do it wrong,

1:30:23Facebook is generally a little bit better

1:30:25at avoiding that problem.

1:30:27Facebook is a little bit better at designing

1:30:29in such a way that it doesn't feel as creepy

1:30:31as it really is.

1:30:33And Google is not quite good at that yet.

1:30:36Yeah, I agree.

1:30:37Boy, they really wanna know where you are.

1:30:41- They really, I mean that's,

1:30:42I don't use any of the Google apps.

1:30:43- Right, the new Google app.

1:30:44Now, so it's not called, the feature's called Google Now,

1:30:48but the new feature on iOS is just in the Google app.

1:30:52It's just in the regular, which originally was just a way

1:30:54to do Google searches.

1:30:56But you open it up, and if you're not,

1:30:59or even if you are signed in,

1:31:01there's a big button at the bottom

1:31:02that says location service is off.

1:31:05Like, and they don't let you use, I think, some of the, a lot of the now features unless

1:31:11you turn location on.

1:31:14And I realize, and it seems to me, and some of them obviously require location, but I

1:31:20think the thing that's weird though is that it, by default, if you turn location on, it's

1:31:24not just for, and this gets back to your thing about like, what was the Seth Godin thing

1:31:30about when you're in the mood to buy something?

1:31:32Yeah, it's like purchasing intent or I think he calls it permission-based marketing.

1:31:36Right.

1:31:37It's not just when you're asking for something.

1:31:40And if I'm asking for pizza now, well, now we need your location to see where you are

1:31:45and we'll give you the recommendation because that's what you're looking for.

1:31:49It's that they want to know where you are all throughout the day and where you've been.

1:31:54And that to me is the difference.

1:31:56That's like the line that I'm very uncomfortable with.

1:32:00And so I don't have it, the location, turned on in my Google app.

1:32:04You know what I mean?

1:32:05There's a huge difference between granting them permission for your location right now

1:32:09when I'm asking where can I get coffee versus granting them permission to track me throughout

1:32:15the day.

1:32:16And one thing too that, you know, iOS has always kind of felt like a safe place to experiment

1:32:22with new apps because apps are so heavily sandboxed and restricted with what they can

1:32:26do and, you know, when they can run even.

1:32:29You know, iOS's lack of fully permissioned background modes for apps where you can run

1:32:36in the background indefinitely doing anything you want.

1:32:39iOS's lack of that and all the heavy sandboxing makes it okay as a consumer to say, "You

1:32:45know what?

1:32:46I can try this Google app, even though I don't really love Google that much or I don't

1:32:49trust them to know everything about me.

1:32:51I can launch this app, and when I'm done with it, I can shut it down and that's

1:32:54it.

1:32:55I'm good."

1:32:56you aren't surprised a month later to learn that

1:33:00it's been running in the background for a month

1:33:02and it knows everything everywhere you've gone

1:33:03for the last month.

1:33:04- Right.

1:33:05- You know, iOS by design kind of limits that,

1:33:07but location services are an exception,

1:33:11and the whole battery thing, do you wanna recap that?

1:33:14- Well, you can.

1:33:16- Okay, so basically, app comes out,

1:33:19everyone's reporting massive drops of battery life

1:33:21when it's on, and Google issued a statement

1:33:24basically saying, "We don't constantly monitor

1:33:26your location, so therefore you're all wrong and the battery's fine, we tested it. But

1:33:29it seems pretty universal from almost everybody using it that it is indeed doing bad things

1:33:34with the battery life. And I think it's important for me as a developer to clarify what exactly

1:33:38they're doing, because when you…

1:33:41Well, before you do that, I'll just reiterate that I'm always a little suspicious of when

1:33:47software updates come out and there's vague arguments that, "Hey, the iOS 4.1 point

1:33:53whatever is killing my battery and it wasn't before and a lot of times when

1:33:58this happens it just seems like whenever any new software comes out somebody has

1:34:01something wrong with their battery and they false you know they it's that

1:34:05correlation causation thing well I just upgraded to this thing so that must be

1:34:08the reason and it doesn't seem to be a lot of any kind of cause-and-effect

1:34:13proof whereas with this Google now thing you it's a lot of people telling the

1:34:18exact same story which is that I upgraded to the new Google app my

1:34:22battery life went to complete shit. I uninstalled the Google app and my battery life went back

1:34:28to normal.

1:34:29Exactly.

1:34:30And Google, and the weird part is that Google is really adamantly saying, "No, not us."

1:34:35And I can't help but think that it's effectively a, "Please don't turn off location."

1:34:40Right. So here's what I'm thinking here. I haven't used the app, so I can't confirm this.

1:34:46And we don't have a chat room, so they can't confirm it either. And you don't have location

1:34:49services, so you can't confirm it either. Probably should have done more research on

1:34:52on this beforehand, but oh well.

1:34:54There are three different ways you can track location on iOS

1:34:58with very, very different battery implications.

1:35:01One of them is full on GPS tracking,

1:35:04where you're continuously tracking locations.

1:35:06So you pretty much only need that

1:35:08if you're doing a turn by turn navigation app or something

1:35:10like that.

1:35:10That destroys the battery, because you

1:35:13have the GPS radio running constantly,

1:35:14which itself is a huge battery drain.

1:35:17Plus your app is running constantly.

1:35:19So any processing you're doing, if the user has something else

1:35:22in the foreground, you have two apps being fully active.

1:35:26So that destroys battery life.

1:35:27As anyone knows, if you've ever done turn by turn,

1:35:29even with Apple's own stuff, constant GPS fixes

1:35:32are very, very expensive to battery life.

1:35:35And Google says they're not doing that.

1:35:38Great, that's fine.

1:35:39I believe them.

1:35:39They don't need to be doing that.

1:35:43And then on the other end, there's the geofence.

1:35:46I did it with Instapaper to do the background

1:35:48update when you cross a certain threshold.

1:35:51News.me actually invented that.

1:35:53It's funny, actually, the guy who invented that at News.me

1:35:55is now working on Instapaper at BetaWorks.

1:35:59I stole this feature from him, and then now he--

1:36:01Now it's no longer stolen.

1:36:02Exactly.

1:36:03Right?

1:36:03It's like if you steal something from somebody,

1:36:06and you keep it, and then you get married to that person,

1:36:09well, now it's no longer stolen.

1:36:10Exactly.

1:36:11It's joint property.

1:36:13Exactly.

1:36:13So anyway, so it's this feature where you can--

1:36:17And the various reminders apps have this too, including apples.

1:36:20And almost every to-do list has this kind of thing

1:36:23where you can say, wake up my app when you enter or leave

1:36:28this particular set of radii and points.

1:36:32So you can say, when I leave my house by more than 80 meters,

1:36:38wake up my app.

1:36:39And so it kind of works like a border crossing thing.

1:36:41So sometimes I don't get called.

1:36:43It's a very low power way to monitor for locations.

1:36:47And the phone and the radios are all

1:36:49optimized to make this very, very low power.

1:36:52And I believe it only uses the radios

1:36:53and does not even turn on the GPS chip at all.

1:36:56Yeah, and it's a loose enough fence where I, for example,

1:37:00can't use it to remind me to buy stuff at the supermarket.

1:37:05Because the supermarket is about 2 and 1/2 blocks from our house.

1:37:08Oh, yeah, it's too close.

1:37:09Yeah, it goes off at home.

1:37:11It's two and a half blocks and is way too close.

1:37:15So I can't use it for that.

1:37:16- And critically, if you're using the geofence API,

1:37:19you can only monitor up to 10 locations at once.

1:37:22So you can't just say,

1:37:23notify, wake up my app for me to do whatever I want

1:37:27every time you move 10 feet.

1:37:30That's different.

1:37:31So there is an op,

1:37:32and geofencing doesn't have much of an effect

1:37:34on battery life because it's not really keeping the radios on

1:37:38more than they otherwise would be on

1:37:40you have cell service. So it's really, it's almost free. And if you have geofencing active

1:37:44in an app, you'll see the location services arrow just as an outline in the status bar.

1:37:49It won't be the solid white. It'll be just the outline of white around it to indicate

1:37:53something is using geofencing. But the battery life for that is pretty much free. Because,

1:37:58again, like you aren't, the app isn't waking up that often, and you aren't using any, you

1:38:04aren't using the GPS radio. Like no radios are more active than they otherwise would

1:38:06would have been.

1:38:08But what Google's probably doing with the Google Now app

1:38:11is the significant location change service, which

1:38:15I believe it uses the same radios

1:38:18and the same method of monitoring location

1:38:21as geofencing.

1:38:22So it's not using the GPS chip.

1:38:23So when they say we are not continuously

1:38:25tracking your location, that is technically correct.

1:38:30But if what they're doing with that information

1:38:32is waking up the app every time you move like 100 feet.

1:38:37If the app gets woken up on every single one

1:38:40and they're doing some processing

1:38:41and possibly sending your new approximate location

1:38:44to a server, then that's keeping other parts of the phone

1:38:48way busier than they otherwise would have been.

1:38:50Even if it's not using the GPS chip,

1:38:52it is at least using data radios,

1:38:55it's transmitting things and it's using the CPU.

1:38:58So that is probably the call.

1:38:59If I had to guess, and having not run this app myself,

1:39:02I would guess they're doing that service,

1:39:05which they can say technically is not continuous tracking,

1:39:08by Apple's definition, it's not continuous tracking,

1:39:10it's not using the GPS chip,

1:39:11but if they're waking up the app constantly

1:39:14every time you go anywhere,

1:39:15it's gonna destroy your battery life, no question.

1:39:16- And I wonder too then, if therefore it's also true

1:39:19that it doesn't destroy the battery for everybody,

1:39:22which I think if that were the case,

1:39:23there's no way they would have shipped it.

1:39:25Maybe it's people, it's affecting people who move a bit,

1:39:30know like you said who knows 100 feet 200 feet but like me who wakes up makes

1:39:35a pot of coffee and sits down in a chair for eight hours maybe wouldn't trigger it

1:39:40but somebody like a college student who's going between buildings all day or

1:39:45somebody who works in a hospital work in a big office right big offices can be

1:39:49hundreds of feet long you know it's it's pretty easy to trigger trigger changes

1:39:52with just walking around your own office exactly going to meetings or going you

1:39:56walking to the restroom and going to the wherever you go to eat lunch and etc etc.

1:40:00Exactly. Right. You might be engaging this, you know, once an hour or something

1:40:05like that and driving the phone nuts. And if that is what they're doing, then I

1:40:10think it is a little bit disingenuous to say we aren't tracking a location

1:40:14constantly. Right. Or imagine what would happen in that case on a

1:40:17commute, right, if you have an hour drive to work. Yeah, then it's basically running

1:40:22constantly. And if they are submitting that to a server or saving

1:40:25information in any way every time they get woken up for a "significant location change,"

1:40:31then I would say they are continuously tracking you, just not very precisely. But it's precise

1:40:36enough to know what neighborhood you're in. It'll tell them that. It'll tell them what

1:40:42restaurants and subways you're near. It's precise enough for that kind of use. It's

1:40:48precise enough within a few hundred feet as opposed to whatever GPS is, like three feet.

1:40:53It's very, very precise for advertising purposes.

1:40:57And the bottom line is that as this app has evolved,

1:41:00the Google app-- and Google now is just--

1:41:04with the locations of it is just the latest part of it.

1:41:06The app is-- almost all of the new stuff

1:41:10requires you to be signed into your Google account.

1:41:12Even if you're not-- and you can sign in and be signed in

1:41:16and do the location preference separately.

1:41:22Although in my opinion, they actually,

1:41:24they kind of bury the preference for the location stuff

1:41:28in a sort of Facebook-y sort of way

1:41:31of making it not that obvious where you go to toggle it.

1:41:36And the language surrounding it is slightly obtuse

1:41:39in my opinion, which I don't think is a coincidence.

1:41:42Like it is hard, it is really hard to just look at--

1:41:46- Uncheck this box to disable location-based

1:41:48privacy settings.

1:41:49- Yes or cancel.

1:41:51Yes or okay? I don't know. It's a little like that. But boy, the whole thing, if you're

1:41:59not signed in, the app really doesn't do it as anywhere near as much. Whereas, you know,

1:42:03when the app first came out, it was just like Google.com where being signed in would let

1:42:08them remember stuff, but for the most part, you could do the whole thing without being

1:42:11signed in. Like, they really want to know who you are.

1:42:14Right. And this is why, like, I don't even keep a Google account logged in on my main

1:42:18browser. Like I have, I use Safari as my main browser and then I have Chrome as like my

1:42:23my ghetto and Chrome has Flash and a Google account signed in.

1:42:26Right. And so anything I need that requires those

1:42:29things I can switch over to Chrome for but most of my browsing I'm doing not there. And

1:42:33just because you know, and I know Google knows who I am and they're tracking me anyway through

1:42:37what it means. Exactly.

1:42:38But you know it gives me a little bit of peace of mind because it just seems like over time

1:42:42Google just wants more and more and more from us. And you're right that they're bringing

1:42:47the Google account in a more heavy-handed way into more of their stuff, and they really

1:42:53want you to be signed in so they know exactly who to attribute all this behavioral data

1:42:56to and they don't have to just infer it with less confidence.

1:43:01It just seems like you give them an inch and they take a foot.

1:43:04Every time I sign in, it prompts me to add a phone number.

1:43:07And they say that's for security.

1:43:08That's great.

1:43:09But I don't trust them.

1:43:10They're an advertising company.

1:43:11So what do they do my phone number for?

1:43:13So I don't give it to them.

1:43:14And I'm sure they found it through some other means.

1:43:17I'm sure that something I've done somewhere on the internet

1:43:19has given them my phone number in some other way.

1:43:22But--

1:43:22It's not the same.

1:43:23It's not the same.

1:43:24And so I know-- I try to keep my privacy reasonably mine,

1:43:32reasonably mine if I can with Google.

1:43:35And every time they add a new feature, if I want to use it,

1:43:38usually I've got to give up a little bit more of that.

1:43:42And you can say, oh, well, that's fine.

1:43:44I trust them.

1:43:45Or they're not going to do anything weird with it.

1:43:47But you never know.

1:43:49And people are not skeptical enough, I think,

1:43:52of companies like this.

1:43:53And even if you say, oh, I have nothing to hide,

1:43:55well, that's not really the point, is it?

1:43:58I feel like, are there any people in your life,

1:44:03besides your wife-- and for a lot of people,

1:44:05even that's not the case-- where you would want them to have

1:44:09a record of everywhere you ever go?

1:44:12Like, for them to have that location-- like,

1:44:14Remember when the Apple location database got out

1:44:17that they were accidentally keeping on the phone

1:44:18and you could upload it and see a map of where you went?

1:44:21That was creepy as hell.

1:44:23And is there anyone in your life that you know

1:44:27besides your spouse who you would want

1:44:29to have that information?

1:44:31Like if there's no people who you would trust with that,

1:44:33people who you know who you know with their motivations,

1:44:35you know what they're gonna do with that information,

1:44:37if anything, you wouldn't trust people with that.

1:44:40Why do you give it to Google?

1:44:41- Right.

1:44:43You know, so it just seems like people don't look at this

1:44:46with enough skepticism, and that's why the model works.

1:44:49But, you know, increasingly I find myself

1:44:51more and more alienated by Google,

1:44:55because they keep wanting more from me,

1:44:57and I don't wanna give it to them.

1:44:58And I wanna remain at a safe distance from them,

1:45:02you know, information and privacy-wise.

1:45:05And they're increasingly trying to pull that line in

1:45:07with people and say, no, our minimum distance is now shorter.

1:45:10- Yeah, totally.

1:45:12I noticed one thing that I thought was a little weird just before we sign off and

1:45:18is I do have Google Maps. I do have the app installed on my phone but I'm not

1:45:25signed in because you know although I'm pretty happy with Apple Maps there are

1:45:30times if it doesn't work right then it you know I want Google Maps there to do

1:45:34it for example when I was in actually in Dublin Apple Maps did pretty good but

1:45:39When I was in New Zealand for web stock,

1:45:42Apple search was just not that good.

1:45:43And Google's was great in terms of like finding--

1:45:46everybody says they're going to such and such restaurant.

1:45:50But in Instagram-- and I almost made my famous Instapaper

1:45:54Instagram conflation.

1:45:55Instagram, the other day, I clicked

1:45:57on a map on somebody's photo.

1:45:58I wanted to see where they were.

1:46:00And when I tapped the map in Instagram,

1:46:04it took me to Google Maps, not Apple Maps.

1:46:09the app. And I'm betting that they're doing the thing that you did with, I think, the

1:46:14magazine or was it…

1:46:15Yeah, with Chrome, yeah, which was actually a mistake.

1:46:17Yeah, you – which is not a bad idea, but in practice is not. It was not what people

1:46:22wanted, where you made this decision that if Chrome was installed, assume that they

1:46:28want to use it as their default browser. It was a way to work around the fact that Apple

1:46:32doesn't let you specify a non-Safari default browser. But the downside of it is there's

1:46:38lot of people who do have Chrome installed but don't want it to be their

1:46:41default browser. Yeah. And I kind of think that that's what Instagram is doing with

1:46:46Maps. Yeah, because I mean you would think because that's a Facebook owned

1:46:50property now, you would think they wouldn't want to be overly friendly

1:46:53towards Google. Right. I can't understand why, how else they would do that, but

1:46:58anyway it was weird. Any other thing that's weird, it's a little, I don't know, I

1:47:01guess it's not weird, but it's, it emphasizes it though, is that inside the

1:47:06app they're using the OS mapping service which therefore looks like Apple Maps so

1:47:12you're not looking at a bigger version of the map you saw you're looking at a

1:47:15different map that's weird that I wonder if that's just like something some kind

1:47:20of old part of the code that they forgot about that haven't touched and see yeah I

1:47:24wonder if maybe you should shoot off the URL in a certain way that it does go to

1:47:28Google Maps I don't know maybe maybe that's what it is I don't know it's a

1:47:34weird thing. Anyway, we could probably call it a show. That's a good long show.

1:47:39Yeah, we got a solid almost two hours. Marco, thank you very much for your time.

1:47:43Thanks for the fun. People can find out more at Marco.org and the magazine.

1:47:49What's the URL for the magazine? Oh, it's a terrible domain. It's the-magazine.org.

1:47:55Yeah, well, you just go to the App Store and look at the magazine.

1:47:59And, uh, uh, boy I had stuff I wanted to talk to you about that, but, uh, we ran out of

1:48:04time.

1:48:05I really liked that piece you guys had.

1:48:06I think it's the most recent issue, the one with the doctor on, uh, vaccinations.

1:48:09Yeah, that was my favorite piece of the issue.

1:48:11Yeah, that was great.

1:48:12That was really good.

1:48:13That was the best one.

1:48:14That was the best article I've read.

1:48:15Not just in the magazine, but it was like one of my favorite articles of the week.

1:48:19So anyway, everybody, if you want something good to read, go check out the magazine and

1:48:22look up this article on, uh, these idiots who don't vaccinate their kids.

1:48:27And my thanks to our sponsors again back blaze go to back blaze comm slash daring fireball

1:48:34not the talk show and

1:48:37File transporter or transporter and their URL is file transporter comm slash talk and

1:48:46Save 10% with the discount code talk Thank You Marco. Thanks

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