The Talk Show

00:00:00 ◼   ► This episode of the talk show is sponsored in part by audible find out more at audiblepodcast.com

00:00:07 ◼   ► The talk show

00:00:10 ◼   ► Oh malek what a week yes there is and it's not even over yet

00:00:17 ◼   ► I'm just surprised. Uh, it's only friday. I'm just waiting for something else to happen tomorrow

00:00:28 ◼   ► I'm not even sure what the biggest news of the week is. I think it's probably the the facebook home

00:00:34 ◼   ► facebook phone

00:00:36 ◼   ► htc first

00:00:38 ◼   ► But I don't know. There's also the the the webkit. Um

00:00:42 ◼   ► I don't know. What do you want to call it a divorce between apple and google where google sort of

00:00:47 ◼   ► Taking their half a webkit and going their own way

00:00:50 ◼   ► I think those two stories are pretty much the same story

00:00:54 ◼   ► of google versus apple

00:00:57 ◼   ► the narrative you and I have been talking about for a very long time.

00:01:03 ◼   ► I wouldn't think of the two events very separately.

00:01:08 ◼   ► I think the Facebook home story is essentially another assault by the Android ecosystem on

00:01:20 ◼   ► Apple.

00:01:21 ◼   ► Apple right I mean I don't know if you read all those interviews you know

00:01:29 ◼   ► Zuckerberg gave to all the print publications by fortune no I didn't

00:01:36 ◼   ► actually and so he's basically talking about like how easy it is to innovate on

00:01:41 ◼   ► Android and how open it is and then they have a great relationship with Apple but

00:01:47 ◼   ► there are constraints, which is kind of very passive aggressive, classic Harvard way of

00:01:52 ◼   ► saying, you know, we got some issues we need to resolve.

00:01:56 ◼   ► Well, and I do think it's, it's almost surprising, the level to which Facebook home as just

00:02:09 ◼   ► software is able to sort of redefine the Android experience. I mean, and I know, I make fun of it

00:02:15 ◼   ► over and over again. The whole Android is open mantra. But here's an example where it really

00:02:22 ◼   ► it really is like it's at it's designed at a level where an app that you just download from the Play

00:02:27 ◼   ► Store can once you you know you granted a bunch of permissions which I think is a lot more broad

00:02:34 ◼   ► than the typical app you download from the Play Store. But once you say okay this I'm going to

00:02:39 ◼   ► allow this to do these things your your phone interface is really completely redefined.

00:02:44 ◼   ► And, you know, it's very, very much the case that you cannot do anything like that on iOS.

00:02:50 ◼   ► I mean, a part of me says, "Thank God," you know, because what I don't want is Facebook

00:02:57 ◼   ► controlling my user experience on my phone.

00:03:01 ◼   ► I mean, I'm sorry.

00:03:03 ◼   ► I would rather trust Cobra, you know, in my pocket than, you know, Facebook.

00:03:10 ◼   ► I'm sorry.

00:03:11 ◼   ► And, you know, I'm no big fan of Android, but I will say this, though.

00:03:15 ◼   ► I do think it's to Android's credit, and I think it's a lesson learned from the PC decade

00:03:22 ◼   ► of the '90s and maybe even the 2000s, that even, let's say, and I don't know this for

00:03:30 ◼   ► sure because it's not out yet.

00:03:32 ◼   ► It doesn't hit the Play Store until the 12th, and the Android phone I have here is, I think

00:03:37 ◼   ► it's a Galaxy Nexus, and I don't think that's on their list of supported phones.

00:03:41 ◼   ► so I probably won't be able to try it.

00:03:42 ◼   ► But, you know, it is still a download from the Play Store.

00:03:46 ◼   ► So if you download it and you don't like

00:03:48 ◼   ► what it's done to your phone, you can uninstall it.

00:03:51 ◼   ► You can delete the app and go back.

00:03:53 ◼   ► As opposed to the dark days of, you know,

00:03:56 ◼   ► PCs and especially Windows in the 90s,

00:03:59 ◼   ► where you might install, I don't know,

00:04:01 ◼   ► browser toolbars and stuff like that,

00:04:04 ◼   ► and you have no idea how to uninstall them.

00:04:07 ◼   ► - That's true.

00:04:08 ◼   ► I mean, I would give you that.

00:04:10 ◼   ► I think the other issue which we don't talk about often with the Android is that it allows

00:04:17 ◼   ► you to customize everything to the system level and Facebook is taking advantage of

00:04:28 ◼   ► that and creating an experience which is very similar to how they see the world.

00:04:37 ◼   ► And I wonder if this is something which becomes a trend where successful companies like Facebook,

00:04:46 ◼   ► like Twitter, like Spotify start to layer their own usability interface on top of Android.

00:04:57 ◼   ► And what Google does about it would be interesting to see because when I looked at the Facebook

00:05:04 ◼   ► home I was at the event yesterday I looked at it and I said you know it's

00:05:08 ◼   ► only a matter of time before Facebook launches its own OS it's only a matter

00:05:15 ◼   ► of time before Google brings Android back into the you know into the cage I

00:05:21 ◼   ► think it's getting too crazy for them you know if Samsung is running away with

00:05:26 ◼   ► one version of Android and Amazon did their own thing and you know now I think

00:05:31 ◼   ► I think Facebook is going to try and do their own thing.

00:05:34 ◼   ► I just think they said at the event

00:05:37 ◼   ► that they will be upgrading this every month

00:05:40 ◼   ► with growing regularity.

00:05:43 ◼   ► And I was like, wait, this is essentially

00:05:46 ◼   ► just a Trojan horse for a full OS.

00:05:49 ◼   ► I'll give it 18 months.

00:05:52 ◼   ► - Well, and I will say this.

00:05:54 ◼   ► I mean, I invited you to be on this show yesterday,

00:05:57 ◼   ► but it was mainly because I saw that after the event

00:06:00 ◼   ► They had a Q&A, and their credit for having a Q&A with the press.

00:06:05 ◼   ► Apple often usually doesn't.

00:06:08 ◼   ► But I saw that you were pressing them on this exact issue, this, "Come on, this is the first

00:06:14 ◼   ► step towards your own operating system."

00:06:19 ◼   ► And they didn't even really...

00:06:21 ◼   ► They didn't really address it directly, but they didn't really...

00:06:24 ◼   ► I thought their answers to it were kind of interesting, because it wasn't a denial, that's

00:06:28 ◼   ► for sure.

00:06:29 ◼   ► You know one thing I was quite enjoying it see how well-trained Mark has become in terms

00:06:38 ◼   ► of media doesn't even acknowledge the question and answers with what he wants to answer but

00:06:44 ◼   ► I tried and they you know the limit the limit of time is always an issue but I'm fairly

00:06:52 ◼   ► convinced that this is just an opening salvo and they have to do it.

00:06:59 ◼   ► If they are investing so much time and energy in trying to create this user experience on

00:07:05 ◼   ► Android, it makes perfect sense for them to go deeper.

00:07:09 ◼   ► I tell you, they may have been working on an OS level program in the background and

00:07:15 ◼   ► the reason they are not launching it just yet is that it's not mature enough because

00:07:19 ◼   ► But it takes a lot more to build an operating system.

00:07:23 ◼   ► I mean, it took Google a few years.

00:07:26 ◼   ► It took Apple many, many years to get it done right.

00:07:29 ◼   ► And Apple is in the business of OS,

00:07:32 ◼   ► and Google is in the business of building operating systems.

00:07:36 ◼   ► I will say this.

00:07:37 ◼   ► I have spoken to executives at Apple, I mean, really high up.

00:07:42 ◼   ► And they see iOS-- and this is even just from your-- even

00:07:48 ◼   ► today, they see it as a continuous effort dating back to 1988, 1989, and the original

00:07:56 ◼   ► next step operating system.

00:07:58 ◼   ► And in terms of things like graphics performance, the smoothness of animation and font rendering

00:08:04 ◼   ► and stuff like that, and certain technical advantages that iOS has had over Android and

00:08:10 ◼   ► other competitors all along, they see that not as something that they've been working

00:08:14 ◼   ► on since 2005 or 2006 when they started working on the iPhone, but as something that they

00:08:18 ◼   ► dates back to 1989. I mean it is hard stuff.

00:08:22 ◼   ► Yeah, it is. And you know, I will give the Facebook guys full credit for being relentless

00:08:30 ◼   ► too. I think there is a little bit Microsoft in that company and they are just, they just

00:08:35 ◼   ► don't like giving up.

00:08:37 ◼   ► Well, and I, and the thing that you have me convinced of in terms of this angle that this

00:08:43 ◼   ► This is just an opening salvo in terms of a broader mobile initiative from Facebook.

00:08:50 ◼   ► And I think it's very clever, and I think it shows – it's a clever way, like you

00:08:55 ◼   ► said, that if a full operating system under their control – maybe something – maybe

00:08:59 ◼   ► still something based on Android, but something more like what Amazon's done, a fork – if

00:09:05 ◼   ► it's not ready yet, this is a very – this strategy of doing this first, doing a home

00:09:10 ◼   ► home screen first that you can install on five very popular Android phones and ship

00:09:16 ◼   ► a new phone from HTC that'll be in AT&T stores later this month, right, is a great way to

00:09:25 ◼   ► ship something as soon as possible, you know, in that mantra of, you know, minimum viable

00:09:32 ◼   ► product.

00:09:33 ◼   ► Like what's the minimum viable mobile operating system that Facebook could ship?

00:09:39 ◼   ► And home screen might be it.

00:09:41 ◼   ► It's a way to ship early.

00:09:43 ◼   ► - Right.

00:09:44 ◼   ► I think the other thing, if you really look at it, John,

00:09:47 ◼   ► they are, they are basically, they did something

00:09:51 ◼   ► which is quite brilliant.

00:09:54 ◼   ► They tore, they gave the middle finger to Google

00:09:57 ◼   ► in a big way, and yet at the same time, they kept saying,

00:10:00 ◼   ► you know, we love Google.

00:10:02 ◼   ► They have never said in the past that, hey Google,

00:10:05 ◼   ► you're great, they're open, we have a, you know,

00:10:08 ◼   ► we really applaud what you're doing.

00:10:10 ◼   ► The narrative on Facebook is that Google sucks, right?

00:10:14 ◼   ► And then suddenly they wake up and like,

00:10:16 ◼   ► "Ooh, we are saying all these nice things about Google."

00:10:20 ◼   ► And my view is, well, you're just trying to hide

00:10:23 ◼   ► what's the reality, right?

00:10:24 ◼   ► Maybe I'm a little bit too cynical or too old

00:10:28 ◼   ► for this industry, but that's how I read it.

00:10:30 ◼   ► The second thing which I would say is that

00:10:33 ◼   ► there also, Google's big play was Google+ on the web.

00:10:37 ◼   ► on the mobile, right?

00:10:39 ◼   ► That's their social play.

00:10:41 ◼   ► And here comes Facebook,

00:10:43 ◼   ► add the social layer on top of Android and says,

00:10:46 ◼   ► "Great guys, to help with you and your Google Plus,

00:10:49 ◼   ► "here is how we do social on your platform."

00:10:54 ◼   ► Right?

00:10:55 ◼   ► And I think that is what is going to make Google

00:10:58 ◼   ► kind of have a little bit of a second thought

00:11:01 ◼   ► as to like what should they do about Facebook and Android

00:11:05 ◼   ► and how open they should keep it.

00:11:07 ◼   ► I do think, and I've seen it on Twitter and I've seen it elsewhere, I saw Horace Deju

00:11:12 ◼   ► of ASIMCO speculating along the same lines of, "Does this..."

00:11:20 ◼   ► I think Google was already being prodded in this direction of, "Hey, have we given competitors

00:11:24 ◼   ► too much by making Android this open?

00:11:28 ◼   ► Too much of a leg up."

00:11:29 ◼   ► Where would Amazon be in tablets if it were not for the fact that Android is open source?

00:11:36 ◼   ► Have we given away too much? You can't help but think given the, it's not even implicit,

00:11:43 ◼   ► it's explicit. Everybody knows that Larry Page is seriously got Google+ as one of his

00:11:50 ◼   ► primary objectives for the next few years at Google, right? And that Facebook might

00:11:55 ◼   ► be their top competitor, even more than Apple, more than, you know, the most direct competitor

00:12:00 ◼   ► maybe. And now they've given their most direct competitor this this opportunity.

00:12:06 ◼   ► You have to wonder whether they're they're reconsidering what that's going to mean for

00:12:12 ◼   ► the next major version of Android. It'd be fun to see what happens. I'm just like almost giddy

00:12:20 ◼   ► with delight to just write the next story. Whatever happens will be pretty awesome.

00:12:26 ◼   ► And on similar lines, I wrote a little bit earlier this week, but I played off a report

00:12:32 ◼   ► by Nicholas Carlson in Business Insider on Andy Rubin's departure as Android lead.

00:12:40 ◼   ► And that it's—nobody's on the record, unfortunately, but it really seems more and more that what

00:12:47 ◼   ► happened to him is exactly what happened to Scott Forstall at Apple, which is that he

00:12:53 ◼   ► he got pushed out. He didn't just decide to step down. His little do another moonshot

00:13:00 ◼   ► for Google thing is really just a gardening leave where he's waiting for options to vest

00:13:06 ◼   ► or something like that or non-competes to expire.

00:13:09 ◼   ► Dr. Ahmad Sairam. I would not disagree with you. I've heard the same story from multiple

00:13:14 ◼   ► sources that he got pushed out mostly because he was very difficult to work with.

00:13:19 ◼   ► All right, I mean like again the one phrase I heard from somebody was quote-unquote Larry was sick of the fighting

00:13:24 ◼   ► Yeah, and the thing that's so telling about that and is that the fighting was with

00:13:30 ◼   ► Correct me if I'm pronouncing wrong Sundar

00:13:34 ◼   ► Pichai Pichai

00:13:37 ◼   ► The chrome lead who took over Android and that's really when you read between the lines the biggest tell that this was not Andy

00:13:45 ◼   ► Ruben's idea because I

00:13:46 ◼   ► And a couple of people said the same thing, that Pichai is the last guy Andy Rubin would

00:13:52 ◼   ► have wanted to take over Android, because he's the guy he was fighting with all the

00:13:55 ◼   ► time.

00:13:56 ◼   ► Or one of the guys he was fighting with all the time.

00:13:58 ◼   ► I think it was a very explicit message which went out to the rest of the company, is that

00:14:04 ◼   ► you do what is necessary for Google.

00:14:07 ◼   ► This is why I am convinced that the Android gets brought back to the farm.

00:14:16 ◼   ► out there too much.

00:14:18 ◼   ► I've said this for years.

00:14:19 ◼   ► And just not-- it's not even like the details of it.

00:14:23 ◼   ► It's just a general feel, like an emotional feel,

00:14:25 ◼   ► that Android, to me, always felt like an independent company

00:14:32 ◼   ► that Google happens to own.

00:14:35 ◼   ► Not part of Google.

00:14:36 ◼   ► Right?

00:14:38 ◼   ► Everything from their graphic design to--

00:14:41 ◼   ► I don't know, there's just so much about it

00:14:42 ◼   ► that it just did not seem aligned with the company,

00:14:45 ◼   ► really.

00:14:45 ◼   ► other than the fact that it ships with a bunch of Google services, you know, as apps in part

00:14:50 ◼   ► of the default app set.

00:14:54 ◼   ► And I think that that's definitely the message that I get is that's going to change, and

00:14:58 ◼   ► that the next major version of Android is going to be a lot more Googley.

00:15:04 ◼   ► You know, the talking about the next version of Android being more Googley, I would say

00:15:13 ◼   ► It's interesting that the Chrome OS and Android look so much similar when their purposes are

00:15:25 ◼   ► entirely different.

00:15:27 ◼   ► And I just wonder what is the unified experience look like when these two projects actually

00:15:33 ◼   ► are run by the same guy.

00:15:35 ◼   ► It'll be pretty fun to see.

00:15:37 ◼   ► And I'm actually pretty excited about what Google is doing.

00:15:43 ◼   ► Not entirely as somebody who's going to end up spending his time on Android, but just

00:15:49 ◼   ► to see them make these moves is at least interesting.

00:15:53 ◼   ► They're not being boring compared to--

00:15:55 ◼   ► Oh, no, that's definitely the case.

00:15:58 ◼   ► And I think some people overread into my taste in the fact that I generally prefer iOS over

00:16:07 ◼   ► Android in most design senses.

00:16:11 ◼   ► That doesn't mean that I don't look at Android with open eyes and appreciate a lot of the

00:16:15 ◼   ► stuff that they're doing.

00:16:17 ◼   ► And I agree with you.

00:16:19 ◼   ► Especially now that it's under one person, I do wonder where that's going to go with

00:16:25 ◼   ► Chrome as an OS and Android as an OS.

00:16:28 ◼   ► Right.

00:16:29 ◼   ► You know, this brings me to the bigger challenge, which is you and I have talked about this

00:16:34 ◼   ► in the past.

00:16:35 ◼   ► Like what does Apple do?

00:16:37 ◼   ► Like this is a time when the idea of operating systems,

00:16:43 ◼   ► user interfaces, everything is up for grabs.

00:16:49 ◼   ► And it seems like our guys are just like

00:16:53 ◼   ► kind of, seem to be a little stuck, a little static.

00:16:57 ◼   ► I don't know what you think about that.

00:17:00 ◼   ► I mean you're very close to the design thinking

00:17:04 ◼   ► Apple and iPhone and iOS? Well, I don't know. I don't think that there's as

00:17:13 ◼   ► much need for new stuff in iOS, major new stuff, as some people do, because I don't

00:17:21 ◼   ► know. And again, I think I talked about this on my show a couple weeks ago, but I

00:17:24 ◼   ► think it's in a sense that I'm getting older, that I'm no longer as

00:17:28 ◼   ► infatuated with new for the sake of newness. Like, I saw some people yesterday

00:17:33 ◼   ► I saw people and immediately after the Facebook home launch

00:17:36 ◼   ► bemoaning the fact that

00:17:40 ◼   ► That the that that little drag your face up left or right thing

00:17:45 ◼   ► Seemed so much more cooler than than anything in iOS

00:17:50 ◼   ► And it is cool, and it's definitely novel

00:17:54 ◼   ► But I feel like I can't help but wonder if that's going to be confusing to a lot of people like I

00:17:58 ◼   ► I appreciate the fact, not that I need it as a super nerd type guy, but for most people,

00:18:05 ◼   ► I think that the fact that on iOS you can just look at it and figure it out, it tells

00:18:11 ◼   ► you.

00:18:12 ◼   ► It actually tells you in iOS when you have your phone locked, slide this to unlock it.

00:18:18 ◼   ► Some people still have trouble with that because they don't slide it all the way and hold

00:18:22 ◼   ► it.

00:18:23 ◼   ► They'll slide it a little bit and let go and it goes back.

00:18:27 ◼   ► So I think it's really hard to overstate the success Apple's had because iOS is so simple.

00:18:35 ◼   ► And there's so many ways that what people see in other systems that they see as Apple

00:18:39 ◼   ► may be falling behind in the whiz-bang regard would just lose so much of what makes iOS

00:18:49 ◼   ► popular with regular people.

00:18:50 ◼   ► Right.

00:18:51 ◼   ► You know, it's just a little confusing time right now.

00:18:55 ◼   ► I think there is a lot of talk about how things are different now with Android and Samsung

00:19:05 ◼   ► and all sorts of new user experiences coming to market.

00:19:10 ◼   ► And then you also have the issue of Apple still continues to do really well.

00:19:16 ◼   ► I wonder if the next earnings report is going to be something to watch for.

00:19:24 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:19:25 ◼   ► Well, I don't know.

00:19:27 ◼   ► I guess that is coming soon.

00:19:28 ◼   ► I feel like they warned so heavily that this was going to be the first--

00:19:33 ◼   ► I mean, if it's not, they're really going to blow past expectations.

00:19:37 ◼   ► But they warned so heavily three months ago

00:19:40 ◼   ► that this coming report was going to be the first one in, I don't know,

00:19:43 ◼   ► how many quarters, 16 quarters or something like that, that shows a year

00:19:47 ◼   ► over year earnings decrease.

00:19:49 ◼   ► Although I think revenue should still increase significantly year over year.

00:19:53 ◼   ► But the margins have shrunk enough for whatever reason

00:19:56 ◼   ► recently that earnings are going to be down a little bit year

00:20:00 ◼   ► over year.

00:20:00 ◼   ► So we'll see how the market reacts.

00:20:02 ◼   ► But I think that that's already baked

00:20:03 ◼   ► into the depression of Apple's stock price.

00:20:06 ◼   ► Right.

00:20:07 ◼   ► What about the bigger narrative around Apple

00:20:11 ◼   ► is that they are failing to keep up

00:20:15 ◼   ► on the cloud side of things, which I think

00:20:18 ◼   ► is a big challenge for them.

00:20:21 ◼   ► we saw the iCloud related stories pop up this past week

00:20:26 ◼   ► and then you have the problem with Chrome,

00:20:30 ◼   ► WebKit, you know, DevOps so to speak.

00:20:33 ◼   ► I don't know, I would love to know

00:20:34 ◼   ► how you're thinking about this.

00:20:35 ◼   ► Like you're the guy who understands

00:20:39 ◼   ► the software side of Apple better than most people do.

00:20:42 ◼   ► - I think that that's one of the,

00:20:46 ◼   ► I do think for the most part that getting the iCloud stuff

00:20:49 ◼   ► to work as well as the--

00:20:54 ◼   ► I think it needs for Apple to really succeed

00:20:56 ◼   ► over the next five years, like they have over the last five years.

00:20:59 ◼   ► The iCloud stuff needs to start working as well for third party developers

00:21:05 ◼   ► as--

00:21:06 ◼   ► what do you want to call it-- Coco Touch or UI Kit,

00:21:09 ◼   ► but whatever you want to call it.

00:21:11 ◼   ► The framework that you use to make native iPhone and iPad apps,

00:21:16 ◼   ► and how much-- when you talk to developers,

00:21:18 ◼   ► much easier it is to write really good-looking, smoothly animated, beautiful apps for iPhone

00:21:26 ◼   ► as opposed to other platforms. They need to get it so that writing stuff that stores data

00:21:32 ◼   ► and syncs data to the cloud is just as good as it is to make good-looking apps. Does that

00:21:39 ◼   ► make sense?

00:21:40 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:21:41 ◼   ► And they're not there yet. And part of it, I just saw that Google has announced some

00:21:45 ◼   ► some new developer features for Google Drive.

00:21:50 ◼   ► And some of them--

00:21:50 ◼   ► a couple of the headlines have said

00:21:52 ◼   ► that it's iCloud, heading in the direction of iCloud,

00:21:55 ◼   ► where it's not just like Dropbox, where it's a folder

00:21:59 ◼   ► that you sync to Google.

00:22:01 ◼   ► They've added key value storage, which is an iCloud feature.

00:22:04 ◼   ► And that's actually an iCloud feature

00:22:06 ◼   ► that works pretty well if you talk to developers.

00:22:10 ◼   ► And I forget what else.

00:22:11 ◼   ► They don't have like a database level, database record level

00:22:17 ◼   ► syncing.

00:22:18 ◼   ► They don't even try it.

00:22:19 ◼   ► And that's the part of iCloud that developers

00:22:22 ◼   ► are bedeviled by.

00:22:23 ◼   ► That's what the Ars Technica story was about.

00:22:25 ◼   ► That's what Rich Segal's incredibly detailed,

00:22:29 ◼   ► and I think very, very fair, technical assessment

00:22:33 ◼   ► that I linked to on During Fireball last week.

00:22:36 ◼   ► And it's also The Verge--

00:22:38 ◼   ► who was it who wrote this Verge story?

00:22:40 ◼   ► Was it Alice Hamburger?

00:22:41 ◼   ► it was Alice Hamburger at The Verge, had a really great story. And what made it great

00:22:46 ◼   ► was he really, I mean, he must have talked to at least a dozen or more developers to

00:22:51 ◼   ► get different perspectives, but they all kind of told the same story about core data syncing

00:22:56 ◼   ► to iCloud. Google doesn't even try that yet. I mean, so it's frustrating for developers

00:23:01 ◼   ► in so far is that core data syncing to iCloud, it's not fair to say it doesn't work, but

00:23:08 ◼   ► it is fair to say it does not work well enough,

00:23:12 ◼   ► to the point where a lot of applications

00:23:14 ◼   ► simply can't rely on it.

00:23:17 ◼   ► But in another sense, Apple's ahead

00:23:19 ◼   ► because they're at least trying something

00:23:21 ◼   ► that Google isn't offering yet, that Amazon doesn't have.

00:23:26 ◼   ► So we'll see.

00:23:27 ◼   ► I mean, is this a case where maybe they shouldn't

00:23:31 ◼   ► have shipped when they did?

00:23:33 ◼   ► Maybe they should have left it in the labs for another year?

00:23:36 ◼   ► or was it worth getting it out there to maybe help iron out the kinks in the field?

00:23:43 ◼   ► You know, I would say that they need to kind of take a step back and figure out their entire

00:23:52 ◼   ► internet strategy, not just iCloud, not just iTunes. They really need to figure out how

00:24:02 ◼   ► internet interfaces with everything they do including their iOS, how deeply

00:24:08 ◼   ► integrated it is. I think what I'm trying to say is that if you look at

00:24:13 ◼   ► Google they are coming from this position of knowing web services really

00:24:18 ◼   ► really well and they are building a design and hardware experience on top of

00:24:22 ◼   ► that. Much easier to do compared to what Apple is trying to do is graph web

00:24:29 ◼   ► experience into its way of thinking and I think unless they figure that out they

00:24:34 ◼   ► will always be challenged with this iCloud type problems. I think as a

00:24:38 ◼   ► company they don't think about the the internet the way as native internet

00:24:44 ◼   ► companies do and I think they are not understanding the little fact that it's

00:24:48 ◼   ► not enough to make great design, great UI, great hardware, great software. You have

00:24:56 ◼   ► to have the ability to be a great connected experience and I think great as Apple might

00:25:02 ◼   ► be on all those things, internet is and will always be its weak point and they're chinking

00:25:10 ◼   ► the armor and so they really need to kind of, they have to have a step back thinking

00:25:17 ◼   ► about this and I think they need, I personally think they need to go find a 35 year old chief

00:25:25 ◼   ► internet officer. That's what they need. They don't need a big company. They don't need to buy a lot of things. They need to buy a

00:25:33 ◼   ► guy or a gal who are native internet thinkers who are in their mid 30s who have grown up on

00:25:41 ◼   ► broadband who think about devices from a connected experience. So if I was free I would volunteer, but I'm not.

00:25:48 ◼   ► But they would look, you know, there's a guy who runs Snapguide. He's a friend of mine, Daniel Raffer.

00:25:54 ◼   ► you know, he could be a good guy to run their, you know, their internet like

00:25:59 ◼   ► ideology, they need the internet ideology and they need to

00:26:02 ◼   ► Inculcate the whole company with connected thinking and I don't think they have it

00:26:09 ◼   ► I just look at all their products great as they are

00:26:12 ◼   ► I would not be able to use anything from any other company

00:26:15 ◼   ► But they still need to think about the services as part of the core software

00:26:21 ◼   ► up in experience and I and if they need to go away from this what's happening

00:26:25 ◼   ► with iCloud it's it just is bringing in that DNA I mean I know it sounds kind of

00:26:31 ◼   ► out there but at least that's how I think about it I I agree though I think

00:26:37 ◼   ► that there's I've always said that I think for anybody whether it's a person

00:26:41 ◼   ► or even an institution where you start informs where you're going how you're

00:26:48 ◼   ► going to look at things forever. And, you know, Apple started pre-internet by decades.

00:26:56 ◼   ► And I mean, just for example, I went, my freshman year of college was 1991. And I went to a

00:27:02 ◼   ► very technical university. I mean, Drexel was, you know, super nerdy. I mean, it was

00:27:06 ◼   ► one of the first, famously one of the first colleges that required all students to have

00:27:11 ◼   ► computer. But when I got there in 1991, and everybody was supposed to buy a Mac, and that

00:27:18 ◼   ► you could buy them at terrific discounts, student discounts. So you go there, and the

00:27:23 ◼   ► second day you'd go and pick up your Mac from this student center where they had all

00:27:28 ◼   ► the ones that you bought through the university. You take it up in your dorm, and the only

00:27:33 ◼   ► thing you connected it to was the power supply in the wall. There was no Ethernet in the

00:27:38 ◼   ► dorms yet. And modems were incredibly expensive. The cheapest modem was three or four hundred

00:27:45 ◼   ► bucks. So we all hooked up our computers. And freshman year, we ended up making our

00:27:52 ◼   ► own little network. It was this little—remember these things? I don't know if you remember

00:27:56 ◼   ► these things. PhoneNet?

00:27:57 ◼   ► Darrell Bock Yeah.

00:27:57 ◼   ► Dave

00:27:57 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:27:58 ◼   ► …where it was like you'd plug it in the serial port of the Mac, and then you could

00:28:02 ◼   ► just use either copper wiring or just phone cabling.

00:28:06 ◼   ► And it was just copper wiring, and you'd get a little Apple local—what was it called?

00:28:12 ◼   ► Local talk network.

00:28:15 ◼   ► We did that so we could play games against each other.

00:28:16 ◼   ► But it wasn't a campus-wide network.

00:28:18 ◼   ► It was just the people in the dorm hallway who we ran copper wiring between.

00:28:24 ◼   ► That was our network, which is crazy, you know, in hindsight.

00:28:27 ◼   ► I mean, and anybody who's younger than me, even just by five years, even somebody who

00:28:32 ◼   ► went to college five years after me, it's almost laughable that you would have a computer

00:28:38 ◼   ► in your dorm room and not have it hooked up to any sort of network.

00:28:41 ◼   ► Right.

00:28:42 ◼   ► I mean, it's almost like I'm sure that anybody who is that young is laughing right now.

00:28:46 ◼   ► They're probably laughing out loud.

00:28:48 ◼   ► Or they think I'm exaggerating.

00:28:50 ◼   ► And I think there's a lot of people, you know, that still is Apple's root, where you buy

00:28:55 ◼   ► a beautiful Apple computing product.

00:28:58 ◼   ► And it's a really thoughtful interface.

00:29:01 ◼   ► It's beautiful.

00:29:03 ◼   ► It feels good in your hand.

00:29:05 ◼   ► And you go home, and you use it by yourself.

00:29:09 ◼   ► Right.

00:29:10 ◼   ► But that was then.

00:29:11 ◼   ► And what is now is that all the people

00:29:16 ◼   ► start with the experience of being connected and services

00:29:21 ◼   ► just being there, right?

00:29:22 ◼   ► and like how all those things connect

00:29:25 ◼   ► with the actual hardware also defines

00:29:28 ◼   ► how we feel about the hardware,

00:29:30 ◼   ► not just the user experience level.

00:29:33 ◼   ► The user experience also means

00:29:36 ◼   ► the internet experience now, right?

00:29:38 ◼   ► And I think that's a change in how the world

00:29:42 ◼   ► thinks about these things.

00:29:43 ◼   ► I just wish, you know, there was like more thought

00:29:49 ◼   ► being put into this at the Apple on this front.

00:29:55 ◼   ► At least I feel they don't think about it that much.

00:29:59 ◼   ► Well, I think they do.

00:30:00 ◼   ► But I don't know, though, that it's high enough a priority.

00:30:03 ◼   ► And some of the stuff they've done really is great

00:30:05 ◼   ► and has worked really well.

00:30:07 ◼   ► I mean, I think that the iCloud backups for iOS devices

00:30:10 ◼   ► has been an unheralded success.

00:30:14 ◼   ► I think the fact that most people seem

00:30:17 ◼   ► have it on, you know, it's opt-in. Everybody has to make a choice, right? When you turn

00:30:25 ◼   ► on your new iPhone or iPad, you've got to go through this setup where you, you know,

00:30:30 ◼   ► if you already have an iCloud account, you can enter it. And if you don't, they encourage

00:30:34 ◼   ► you strongly, but don't force you to create one. And if you do, they ask if you want to

00:30:38 ◼   ► back up to iCloud.

00:30:39 ◼   ► Right.

00:30:40 ◼   ► And from everything I've heard from people who do tech support for people and daring

00:30:47 ◼   ► Fireball readers who work as geniuses in the stores and stuff like that, it's been a huge,

00:30:52 ◼   ► huge success because now people come in with a dead iPhone and either buy a new one or

00:30:59 ◼   ► get a replacement under warranty or whatever, and they type their iCloud password into the

00:31:05 ◼   ► replacement one and while they're in the store on Apple's super fast Wi-Fi, boom, their stuff

00:31:10 ◼   ► his back, as opposed to before, they'd be like, "Back it up, Hal." And they'd just look

00:31:16 ◼   ► at the guy, and he'd be like, "Did you ever plug it in your computer?" And they're like,

00:31:19 ◼   ► "I think I did when I—the day I bought it, and that was the last time they'd plugged

00:31:23 ◼   ► it into their computer." And so everything they had after that, you know, was gone.

00:31:28 ◼   ► So I think that's been a huge success for Apple. But it's monolithic, right? It's restoring—it's

00:31:36 ◼   ► whole you know you can restore your whole phone to a new phone and that it

00:31:40 ◼   ► does work well but I feel like the incremental updates you know this just

00:31:47 ◼   ► the little stuff throughout the day of having you know your records in each app

00:31:51 ◼   ► sync seamlessly between devices is you know it's it's a huge challenge for them

00:31:57 ◼   ► we look I I'm a believer that they can get it right if of all the people out

00:32:04 ◼   ► there they're the one company which will understand how human beings like to use

00:32:12 ◼   ► you know the internet and a connectivity and all those things and bring it all

00:32:18 ◼   ► together but they need to make it a top priority like I wrote a little tiny post

00:32:23 ◼   ► last night in which Microsoft Robbie Bach and one of the other guys talking

00:32:29 ◼   ► about Microsoft Kin in 2010.

00:32:34 ◼   ► Three years later, Zuckerberg used pretty much the same language describing Facebook

00:32:40 ◼   ► Home and in three years what Microsoft couldn't get it right, Facebook got it right because

00:32:46 ◼   ► they are an internet native company.

00:32:49 ◼   ► Microsoft had the right ideas, just was a bad UX, bad UI and bad execution.

00:32:56 ◼   ► that company is like their middle name should be bad execution right like they

00:33:01 ◼   ► come up with technologies first and they can't execute on it and I don't know why

00:33:05 ◼   ► you know they were the first ones with tablet and just couldn't get it right

00:33:09 ◼   ► they were the first ones with like a proper smartphone with like a

00:33:12 ◼   ► programmable software with Windows CE and they still couldn't get it right so

00:33:18 ◼   ► as a company they're bad they're bad execution guys but the key Microsoft kin

00:33:24 ◼   ► made a lot of sense they were talking about people centric they were talking

00:33:28 ◼   ► about content and context they were talking about all these things three

00:33:32 ◼   ► years ago but they were not a native internet company so they didn't quite

00:33:37 ◼   ► understand how to do it right Facebook yesterday when I saw it my issues with

00:33:43 ◼   ► their privacy you know you know disregarding privacy aside that's an

00:33:49 ◼   ► actually a product built for the connected age right but there are a lot

00:33:53 ◼   ► of people use it or not remains to be seen, but it takes into the account that you're

00:33:58 ◼   ► always on. You're always engaging with the smartphone. You're always connected. And

00:34:04 ◼   ► I think that's the thinking of that web thinking is there. And that's what Apple

00:34:10 ◼   ► needs.

00:34:11 ◼   ► That's what I…

00:34:12 ◼   ► That's… And let's hold the privacy discussion for a moment. But the one note

00:34:17 ◼   ► I have written down to speak to you about is, to me, what it is is proof of something

00:34:22 ◼   ► that I've suspected for a while which is that Facebook now realizes that they've

00:34:27 ◼   ► had a change of heart at some point in the last few years where they realized

00:34:30 ◼   ► that they're not a website they're a service. The website is just one

00:34:38 ◼   ► way to access the service and that they need to think that way and you know

00:34:43 ◼   ► and now mobile is a different way to access the service. Yeah I totally agree

00:34:48 ◼   ► with you now think about it this way that they with the new Facebook home

00:34:55 ◼   ► they're essentially saying what has been Facebook since 2005 the whole newsfeed

00:35:02 ◼   ► idea it's okay to not have that idea let's break up everything into

00:35:07 ◼   ► individual components I mean that's the big implication of yesterday's news is

00:35:13 ◼   ► that they're okay, you know, disaggregating the entire Facebook experience into a whole

00:35:20 ◼   ► different screen, right?

00:35:22 ◼   ► Right.

00:35:23 ◼   ► And that--

00:35:24 ◼   ► It's not just that one web, canonical website interface.

00:35:27 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:35:28 ◼   ► And I think that is a very interesting way of looking at Facebook now.

00:35:33 ◼   ► It's like, okay, if they're a service, I agree with you, 100%, they're a service.

00:35:38 ◼   ► really and they're finally beginning to embrace that bit.

00:35:45 ◼   ► Maybe they've already always embraced it, just not talking.

00:35:47 ◼   ► No, I don't think so.

00:35:48 ◼   ► I think their old mindset was what's the best way to get our website to people, including

00:35:53 ◼   ► even their initial efforts on mobile, which I think was mostly just wrapping the website

00:35:57 ◼   ► into an app.

00:35:58 ◼   ► It was how do we get our website into an app.

00:36:01 ◼   ► Whereas now I think they're thinking what's the best way – what's the best interface

00:36:05 ◼   ► to get our information, our service to its users.

00:36:10 ◼   ► And if it's native code, it's native code, then do it.

00:36:15 ◼   ► Then let's hire designers and developers

00:36:20 ◼   ► who are gonna kick ass at it.

00:36:21 ◼   ► Because that's the other thing too.

00:36:23 ◼   ► Did you get your hands on the phone yesterday?

00:36:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, I did.

00:36:26 ◼   ► - Was it as smooth as it looked in the videos and the demos?

00:36:28 ◼   ► - Actually better.

00:36:30 ◼   ► I was completely, they exceeded my expectations.

00:36:35 ◼   ► Let's get back to that in a second. Let me take a break here for a sponsor and that's

00:36:40 ◼   ► where we'll pick up. But I want to thank our first sponsor and its many tricks and

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00:39:51 ◼   ► I just downloaded it man, spent 18 bucks on it.

00:39:55 ◼   ► It's a great app, it really is. It's just fantastic. It does exactly what it says on the tin.

00:40:03 ◼   ► So anyway, smoothness, animation smoothness, that's one of the things that really blew me away.

00:40:09 ◼   ► And it's one of the things, I don't even use Facebook, I've never signed up for it.

00:40:13 ◼   ► But I'm fascinated by the company and keep my eye on them.

00:40:17 ◼   ► on them. And the one thing all of us, anybody who covers the industry has noticed over the

00:40:21 ◼   ► last two years is that they've hired an enormous amount of design talent. A lot of people who

00:40:28 ◼   ► used to work at Apple, Mike Mattes, for example, iOS developers, the guys who did Kaleidoscope,

00:40:37 ◼   ► what were they called, Sofa, and a couple of other great apps, like really high quality

00:40:44 ◼   ► the type of apps that win and have won Apple Design Awards, those type of developers and

00:40:49 ◼   ► designers. Facebook has been hiring as fast as they can get them. And I know firsthand from a

00:40:56 ◼   ► bunch of my friends that they've reached out to more who've turned them down.

00:41:02 ◼   ► Dr. Ahmad S

00:41:02 ◼   ► Yeah, they're stockpiling the nuclear weapons of design war man. They're just bringing on anybody and everybody

00:41:10 ◼   ► I actually had a list and then I just the list was got so big that I just forgot and like I said

00:41:18 ◼   ► Let's give up keeping track of these people and I think

00:41:21 ◼   ► My my take is that these guys are gonna stop and nothing to get get it right for all different kind of

00:41:32 ◼   ► of device experiences and all kinds of web experiences.

00:41:36 ◼   ► I do agree with you that they are splintering away

00:41:40 ◼   ► from the idea of a unified feed and becoming more of a--

00:41:45 ◼   ► more of-- sorry.

00:41:52 ◼   ► Thinking of the information as being

00:41:54 ◼   ► abstract from the interface for it, right?

00:41:56 ◼   ► And then here's this device.

00:41:58 ◼   ► Here's a four-inch device.

00:41:59 ◼   ► What's the best interface for this?

00:42:01 ◼   ► Well, it's nothing at all like it is on your 21 inch monitor

00:42:04 ◼   ► where you're running a web browser.

00:42:06 ◼   ► - Right.

00:42:07 ◼   ► So much design thinking in the company

00:42:11 ◼   ► means that they are thinking about data and design

00:42:16 ◼   ► and screen in a very contextual, very thoughtful manner.

00:42:21 ◼   ► I think that's a new thing about what Facebook is doing.

00:42:25 ◼   ► And I think this is going to be an interesting challenge

00:42:29 ◼   ► for our friends at Apple,

00:42:32 ◼   ► like how do they think about all these things, right?

00:42:34 ◼   ► Like, I don't think data has been part of their thinking.

00:42:38 ◼   ► I don't think, you know,

00:42:39 ◼   ► internet has been part of their experience thinking so far.

00:42:44 ◼   ► You know, they can still continue to just make hardware

00:42:47 ◼   ► and make software and still do what they do,

00:42:50 ◼   ► but design and the connectedness are,

00:42:53 ◼   ► oh sorry, data and connectedness,

00:42:55 ◼   ► or the state of connectedness are part of the thinking

00:42:59 ◼   ► which they need to have, which is what I think these guys are able to do.

00:43:03 ◼   ► Look, Google has done the same thing.

00:43:06 ◼   ► I don't know if you've noticed Google's apps have just gotten infinitely better looking

00:43:11 ◼   ► than they used to.

00:43:12 ◼   ► And the reason is that they're also understanding that apps on the desktop don't necessarily

00:43:18 ◼   ► have to work like the way they do on the mobile.

00:43:24 ◼   ► But they're also going in the, you know, they're coming up with same design language as for

00:43:29 ◼   ► various different screens, which is the Google Look, the Apple Look, the Facebook Look, and

00:43:35 ◼   ► all these guys are thinking about that.

00:43:37 ◼   ► And I think from my standpoint, I do feel that Facebook has a slight advantage right

00:43:43 ◼   ► now.

00:43:44 ◼   ► I gently disagree with you, though.

00:43:47 ◼   ► I feel that what Facebook showed yesterday is more of a threat to Google than Apple,

00:43:52 ◼   ► I feel like what Facebook has done has become to me, and I haven't seen the phone firsthand,

00:43:58 ◼   ► but I really do take your word for it, and the videos were pretty impressive, but it

00:44:03 ◼   ► looks to me like the first other company that's created an Apple quality, humane interface

00:44:10 ◼   ► for touch in terms of the organic-ness of the way that animations work.

00:44:19 ◼   ► And it's not just that things bounce, it's the way that they bounce and stretch.

00:44:22 ◼   ► And like I said, like, making it feel organic is the best way I can think to put it.

00:44:29 ◼   ► And while Google's iOS apps, I think, have gotten really good and consistent and have

00:44:35 ◼   ► a very nice Google-wide brand, I don't see that on their Android apps.

00:44:40 ◼   ► Their Android apps, to me, and it's, to me, it stems, I think it's purposeful, I think

00:44:45 ◼   ► It stems from the whole name Android, that they've gone for this sort of robotic aesthetic.

00:44:53 ◼   ► But it's sterile in a way that like when you bounce, when you scroll in lists and stuff

00:44:59 ◼   ► like that and you get to the end, it doesn't bounce at all.

00:45:01 ◼   ► It just ends.

00:45:02 ◼   ► It feels very mechanical.

00:45:05 ◼   ► There's no organicness to it.

00:45:06 ◼   ► I feel like it lacks humanity.

00:45:09 ◼   ► And that to me is a problem for Google because what Google wants, I think, most is not to

00:45:14 ◼   ► to be more like Apple and sell their own $700 phones and tablets, but to be more like Facebook

00:45:23 ◼   ► and have people share their personal information and do their social networking through Google

00:45:27 ◼   ► Plus. And I feel like Facebook getting more humane in their design helps Facebook stay

00:45:36 ◼   ► ahead of Google in that regard.

00:45:39 ◼   ► Hmm, okay. I mean, you know, I do feel that there are all these three companies are all

00:45:46 ◼   ► on the, you know, they're going on a collision course, so to speak.

00:45:51 ◼   ► And well, and among the other news this week on the collision course, so we've got Amazon

00:45:57 ◼   ► who already has tablets based on Android, like complete forks. Now they've hired Charlie

00:46:04 ◼   ► Kindle, who has the most amazing name for someone to be hired by Amazon, even

00:46:09 ◼   ► though he has the E and the L transposed versus their e-readers. But he

00:46:15 ◼   ► used to work at Microsoft on mobile, and since leaving Microsoft has written, I

00:46:22 ◼   ► think, extremely cogently—I mean, I've linked to him several times on Daring

00:46:26 ◼   ► Fireball, his blog, and very astute—a very astute observer of the mobile

00:46:31 ◼   ► industry as a whole for a quote unquote secret project.

00:46:35 ◼   ► But I think, you know, is there anybody who isn't thinking that he's been hired by

00:46:39 ◼   ► Amazon to lead their mobile phone?

00:46:41 ◼   ► No, I don't think that anything, it's nothing, it's, I am convinced that it's,

00:46:48 ◼   ► it's a phone and Charlie's gonna help build that.

00:46:52 ◼   ► And I think that's a great hire because, like I said, just from reading his blog where

00:46:56 ◼   ► it seems to me like for the, you know, I mean, obviously I think that's gonna, his openness

00:47:00 ◼   ► is going to stop in that regard. But I think he's a really astute observer of what's, you know,

00:47:06 ◼   ► what's made the mobile industry tick over the last few years.

00:47:09 ◼   ► So I had a chance to meet with him and be on a panel with him like a couple of months ago.

00:47:16 ◼   ► And man, that guy is one smart cookie. I can't believe, you know, Microsoft lets people like him

00:47:25 ◼   ► walk out. It just is amazing to me. And it just boggles my mind like how can you have

00:47:32 ◼   ► talent like that just walk out. But most important thing I think from an Amazon's perspective is

00:47:39 ◼   ► that how much of the the experience they are going to control from a shopping standpoint now

00:47:47 ◼   ► if they have a phone also. I mean that just is just going to be amazingly brilliant way

00:47:54 ◼   ► of thinking about shopping and buying things.

00:47:57 ◼   ► And it just is amazing how those guys are thinking about the world.

00:48:02 ◼   ► And you have to kind of think about it.

00:48:06 ◼   ► There's the old adage, follow the money.

00:48:08 ◼   ► And so these guys are all competing with each other.

00:48:11 ◼   ► And let's just take phones.

00:48:12 ◼   ► It's not even talk tablets, but just phones.

00:48:15 ◼   ► Almost everybody only has one phone at a time.

00:48:19 ◼   ► Guys like me and you might have an office full of phones

00:48:22 ◼   ► and more than one SIM card at a time because we're testing phones and stuff like that.

00:48:26 ◼   ► I mean, we're clearly oddballs, right? And business guys who have an iPhone and a Blackberry

00:48:32 ◼   ► or something like that, there's such a small number of people, it's not even worth thinking

00:48:37 ◼   ► about, right? People get one phone at a time. And unless it breaks or something like that,

00:48:41 ◼   ► they keep it for at least two years because they buy it under contract.

00:48:46 ◼   ► So there are—there's absolutely—they're all competing against each other because they

00:48:50 ◼   ► They want you, when you go buy your next phone,

00:48:53 ◼   ► to buy their phone, right?

00:48:55 ◼   ► So there's definitely competition.

00:48:56 ◼   ► But their interests are all very, very different.

00:48:59 ◼   ► Apple really just wants you to buy the iPhone

00:49:02 ◼   ► 'cause they make a lot of money

00:49:03 ◼   ► once you've bought the iPhone.

00:49:04 ◼   ► And they wanna keep you happy

00:49:05 ◼   ► so that you'll use their services and stuff like that.

00:49:08 ◼   ► But they've already got the money

00:49:09 ◼   ► and their main interest in making you happy

00:49:11 ◼   ► is so that the next phone you buy is also an iPhone.

00:49:14 ◼   ► Google and Facebook are primarily in the ad business, right?

00:49:19 ◼   ► They want you to use their stuff because they want to be able to make money on the ads they're

00:49:23 ◼   ► going to show you.

00:49:24 ◼   ► And Amazon, different than all the others, just wants you to buy stuff from Amazon.

00:49:30 ◼   ► And if you are going to buy more stuff because your phone is an Amazon phone, that's great.

00:49:36 ◼   ► I think they should just give these devices away for free.

00:49:41 ◼   ► I mean, my view is both the tablets and the phones, if they make them, they should give

00:49:47 ◼   ► them away for free if they want people to shop from them constantly.

00:49:51 ◼   ► I mean, it's like the logic on buying an iPhone is, or maybe even a Samsung Android, is that

00:50:01 ◼   ► you can basically go to any place and buy anything or do anything without regard of

00:50:09 ◼   ► one specific service.

00:50:11 ◼   ► And that is, you know, a Swiss model.

00:50:15 ◼   ► I mean, I kinda like that, but if these companies,

00:50:18 ◼   ► let's say,

00:50:19 ◼   ► Facebook or even Amazon want us to buy their phone,

00:50:25 ◼   ► they shouldn't try and make us spend a lot of money on them.

00:50:30 ◼   ► I would want them for free.

00:50:31 ◼   ► So that, yeah, I'll happily shop on it, no problems.

00:50:35 ◼   ► I mean, I shop on it like,

00:50:36 ◼   ► I mean, I buy pretty much everything on Amazon right now.

00:50:39 ◼   ► - I buy everything I can buy on Amazon from Amazon,

00:50:42 ◼   ► just about.

00:50:43 ◼   ► If I can't, you know, and if I think that they have it, I check there first.

00:50:51 ◼   ► It's definitely true for me.

00:50:52 ◼   ► I've had the same thought on the Facebook phone pricing.

00:50:55 ◼   ► With Apple, they don't want...

00:50:58 ◼   ► It's in their interest to have a phone that is free with a contract, you know, the two-year-old

00:51:03 ◼   ► iPhone 4 now.

00:51:07 ◼   ► But not as their big new, this is the thing when they come up on stage and unveil something

00:51:13 ◼   ► new. They don't want to come out with something new and say that it's free. It doesn't work

00:51:17 ◼   ► for them because it doesn't help their brand image as a premium brand. It's this sort of

00:51:25 ◼   ► premium luxury or affordable luxury, I should say, where it's not like buying a Rolex watch

00:51:33 ◼   ► where it's way too expensive for most people. It's, "Hey, here's the best phone on the market

00:51:38 ◼   ► and you can afford it because it starts at $1.99, right?

00:51:41 ◼   ► It's this affordable luxury.

00:51:44 ◼   ► Free doesn't fit in with that.

00:51:45 ◼   ► Whereas with the Facebook thing, with like the HTC first,

00:51:50 ◼   ► I don't know, if they're going to show ads in the thing,

00:51:53 ◼   ► to me, like, why not make it free?

00:51:56 ◼   ► With the contract, with the, in terms of,

00:51:59 ◼   ► well then how do you get AT&T on board?

00:52:01 ◼   ► You get AT&T on board because it's still the two-year

00:52:04 ◼   ► contract, not a free phone that you don't have

00:52:07 ◼   ► the obligation for but quote unquote free right agreed like I am with you and

00:52:13 ◼   ► that 100% they need to figure that one out and they would actually do well if

00:52:17 ◼   ► they were making an actual phone which was for free and people could you know

00:52:22 ◼   ► get it for free and and they could show ads on it great I mean I'm I'm pretty

00:52:28 ◼   ► sure there's like you know many many people who would want something like

00:52:32 ◼   ► Yeah, and you know, and Amazon's the one who I think is most likely to just go there, just

00:52:39 ◼   ► do it maybe even out of the gate and just say, "Look, the damn thing's gonna be free."

00:52:43 ◼   ► Because they, you know, their pricing, their, their, their, it's, competing with them on

00:52:48 ◼   ► price is almost crazy because they'll do crazy things and, and they have the support from

00:52:52 ◼   ► their shareholders to do that, to, to run the, you know, the business at break even

00:52:56 ◼   ► or even slightly under.

00:53:00 ◼   ► So can we talk a little bit about this WebKit fork because I'm trying to understand this

00:53:09 ◼   ► and you've been blogging pretty extensively about it.

00:53:12 ◼   ► Well, you know what?

00:53:14 ◼   ► Let's do that, but let me do the second sponsor break first and then we can finish the show

00:53:17 ◼   ► by talking about the WebKit.

00:53:18 ◼   ► Okay.

00:53:19 ◼   ► All right.

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00:54:19 ◼   ► They always like a recommendation from the hosts.

00:54:23 ◼   ► I have a great recommendation for an audiobook.

00:54:26 ◼   ► Perfect for this week and it's perfect for you, Om.

00:54:30 ◼   ► Right now, and you know what,

00:54:31 ◼   ► and I don't think people appreciate this, Om,

00:54:33 ◼   ► that you and I are voluntary,

00:54:34 ◼   ► we're missing a Yankees game right now to do this show.

00:54:39 ◼   ► The Yankees are playing the Detroit Tigers.

00:54:41 ◼   ► I haven't looked at the score.

00:54:42 ◼   ► Have you looked at the score?

00:54:43 ◼   ► - I'm just scared to look at the score.

00:54:45 ◼   ► - You know what, I felt good last night.

00:54:47 ◼   ► I felt good last night watching 40-year-old Andy Pettit throw eight innings and 43-year-old

00:54:53 ◼   ► Mariano Rivera get the save.

00:54:56 ◼   ► You know, just to feeling a little old, I would say as guys who've been doing what

00:55:02 ◼   ► we've been doing for a very long time, it is good to see some old guys.

00:55:08 ◼   ► It warmed my heart.

00:55:09 ◼   ► It warmed my heart to see guys my age save the Yankees season.

00:55:14 ◼   ► They were 0-2 going into it.

00:55:16 ◼   ► Perfect for the start of baseball season is this book. It's called "Scorecasting,

00:55:20 ◼   ► the hidden influences behind how sports are played and games are won." And it's by

00:55:26 ◼   ► two economists, L. Ron Wertheim and Tobias Moskowitz. And it's just a fascinating

00:55:34 ◼   ► book. And it's for sports fans combined with math fans,

00:55:40 ◼   ► statistical fans. And it's just chock full of the the intersection of psychology and statistics.

00:55:48 ◼   ► And they make like a great case that statistically, this is just one example, statistically in US pro

00:55:55 ◼   ► football, teams should almost never punt. They should almost never punt on fourth down. They

00:56:01 ◼   ► should go for it almost all the time except in extreme circumstances. And instead, across all

00:56:06 ◼   ► levels of football, high school, college, and especially pro coaches are super, super

00:56:10 ◼   ► conservative and on almost every fourth down they do punt. Why? It's, it's even

00:56:15 ◼   ► though the stats show you'd be better off, you'd win more games by not punting,

00:56:19 ◼   ► it's the psychology of it and that you feel like when you don't make it you're

00:56:23 ◼   ► losing more than you gain when you do make it, right? It's, that's the

00:56:29 ◼   ► psychology of it. The book is just chock full of examples like that for all

00:56:34 ◼   ► sports it's not just about football it's not just about baseball but basketball

00:56:38 ◼   ► they go into great have a great chapter on the home field advantage and where it

00:56:43 ◼   ► where it comes from and how the home field advantage holds up across all

00:56:48 ◼   ► sports soccer football baseball all team sports all around the world how all

00:56:53 ◼   ► every one of them has a very very consistent home field advantage it's a

00:56:57 ◼   ► great book for sports fans who love stats it's called score casting and they

00:57:02 ◼   ► They have it there on audible.com.

00:57:08 ◼   ► So the WebKit thing.

00:57:10 ◼   ► I don't know what to make of this.

00:57:12 ◼   ► I really don't.

00:57:13 ◼   ► Can we talk Yankees before we talk WebKit?

00:57:15 ◼   ► Yeah, we can talk Yankees, definitely.

00:57:18 ◼   ► This has been a hard year, man.

00:57:20 ◼   ► It's been like going into it and I'm looking at this and like, who are these people?

00:57:24 ◼   ► I don't even know them.

00:57:26 ◼   ► It's like this like two hundred and twenty nine million dollars for like this team. Oh my god

00:57:31 ◼   ► It is just I think you know, I wrote a little post on my personal blog

00:57:37 ◼   ► om.co

00:57:39 ◼   ► basically bemoaning that

00:57:41 ◼   ► This is gonna be a tough year to be a Yankee fan and it will test our faith like nothing has ever before

00:57:48 ◼   ► Well, man, it's like day four and I'm like, oh my god

00:57:52 ◼   ► I guess like oh my god is like my favorite expression as far as the Yankees course are concerned

00:57:57 ◼   ► The score is actually six three. I just looked at and

00:58:01 ◼   ► Three in the seventh and Nunez just left to injury. I don't know what is going on

00:58:07 ◼   ► You know what right before we got started the show right before we started I?

00:58:10 ◼   ► Had watched while I ate lunch and him it happened after I that but I saw an update that he'd gotten hit by a pinch

00:58:17 ◼   ► And was apparently really really writhing around and pay and I hope that's not it but

00:58:21 ◼   ► - Wow man, this is gonna be some year.

00:58:25 ◼   ► - This is the first time I can remember

00:58:28 ◼   ► since sometime maybe in the early 90s

00:58:30 ◼   ► where the opening day lineup was filled with,

00:58:35 ◼   ► who the hell is that?

00:58:36 ◼   ► I've never heard of this guy.

00:58:37 ◼   ► Travis Hafner and I mean I've heard of Vernon Wells,

00:58:41 ◼   ► but I mean you really had to be paying attention

00:58:42 ◼   ► to even realize the Yankees had signed him.

00:58:45 ◼   ► They only had three guys on their opening day lineup

00:58:47 ◼   ► from the year before.

00:58:48 ◼   ► Whereas for the last, I don't know, 15, 16 years,

00:58:52 ◼   ► they've really had a lot of continuity

00:58:56 ◼   ► from season to season.

00:58:57 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:58:59 ◼   ► It's either gonna be a brutal year to be a Yankee fan,

00:59:01 ◼   ► a real brutal, I mean, just really horrible,

00:59:05 ◼   ► or some of these young guys and the new guys

00:59:08 ◼   ► are gonna step up and it's gonna be kinda awesome

00:59:10 ◼   ► because it might be reinvigorating

00:59:13 ◼   ► to get some new blood onto the lineup

00:59:15 ◼   ► if they can play first place baseball?

00:59:19 ◼   ► - Well, let's hope so.

00:59:21 ◼   ► I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

00:59:25 ◼   ► Let's see what happens.

00:59:27 ◼   ► But let's get back to Chrome and WebKit.

00:59:32 ◼   ► - Blink. - And Blink.

00:59:33 ◼   ► - I'm not sure about that name.

00:59:36 ◼   ► I still think, I'm still scarred from 1995

00:59:40 ◼   ► when the Blink tag was hooked up in Netscape.

00:59:44 ◼   ► I'm not sure if that's a nod to that or if it's something else.

00:59:48 ◼   ► I guess it's supposed to be about how fast it is.

00:59:50 ◼   ► I mean, that's what they say is there.

00:59:52 ◼   ► I mean, and admittedly, Chrome is a very, very fast browser,

00:59:56 ◼   ► maybe the fastest of the major browsers.

00:59:59 ◼   ► You know, I'm not sure if it's also supposed to be like a wink, wink,

01:00:04 ◼   ► nudge, nudge to the Blink tag.

01:00:07 ◼   ► >> You know, I don't know what the name is.

01:00:09 ◼   ► I bet you most of those kids don't even know the Blink tag.

01:00:13 ◼   ► they may have not even remembered it.

01:00:15 ◼   ► Yeah, you know what that might be.

01:00:17 ◼   ► It might be.

01:00:18 ◼   ► So the politics of this whole situation is pretty interesting.

01:00:23 ◼   ► That post by Rob Isaac, who's a developer based in New Zealand, was pretty fun to read.

01:00:31 ◼   ► Actually he did the bullshit to English translation on the whole FAQ on Blink, which was pretty

01:00:39 ◼   ► awesome to read.

01:00:40 ◼   ► Yeah, and he took a very "this is political and we're trying to screw Apple" sort of stance

01:00:44 ◼   ► to it. I'm not sure that that's true, and I'm not one, I think my reputation is one to sort of,

01:00:49 ◼   ► by default, you know, to be one to think that app, that Google is a bit more scheming and

01:00:56 ◼   ► less open and less, or more disingenuous than people give them credit for. But I'm not sure

01:01:02 ◼   ► that's the case here. I really don't. I really don't know what to make of this.

01:01:07 ◼   ► Look, there's a little bit of truth that there's politics involved.

01:01:13 ◼   ► And I think there is a truth that WebKit has become a little bit, you know, big and bloated,

01:01:19 ◼   ► I guess.

01:01:20 ◼   ► I mean, if that's the right way to describe it.

01:01:22 ◼   ► So…

01:01:23 ◼   ► Well, or at least the… from their perspective as the developers of WebKit, it has gotten

01:01:29 ◼   ► bloated, right?

01:01:31 ◼   ► And I think that's the argument that, forget his name, but one of the Chrome developers

01:01:34 ◼   ► made was that it's just got all of these build targets for platforms that Chrome doesn't

01:01:39 ◼   ► care about.

01:01:40 ◼   ► So why are they – they're stuck making sure that all of their changes don't cause

01:01:46 ◼   ► problems on all of these other platforms that use WebKit that Chrome doesn't care about

01:01:50 ◼   ► because Chrome only runs on Mac, Windows, iOS, and Android, right?

01:01:55 ◼   ► So why do they care if it causes a problem on the Nokia phone or something like that

01:02:00 ◼   ► or, you know, Blackberry?

01:02:02 ◼   ► You know, why are they developing, fixing bugs that they don't care about?

01:02:07 ◼   ► Right.

01:02:08 ◼   ► I, you know, I totally see their standpoint on this.

01:02:11 ◼   ► I think it'll be, I've also heard, and I don't know if you've heard something similar that

01:02:16 ◼   ► Apple is working on their own, you know, twist on, on WebKit and whatnot.

01:02:26 ◼   ► So

01:02:27 ◼   ► You know what?

01:02:28 ◼   ► I did hear something like that.

01:02:31 ◼   ► And again, I don't, what I heard somebody, something, something about maybe a new web

01:02:36 ◼   ► rendering engine from Apple, I don't think, when I hear new web rendering engine, I don't

01:02:41 ◼   ► think brand new, although that is what Mozilla and Samsung are apparently working on.

01:02:46 ◼   ► I think it's another, you know, it's starting with WebKit and doing something new with it,

01:02:51 ◼   ► you know.

01:02:52 ◼   ► And I do think that's the one thing that people aren't clear about, a lot of people aren't

01:02:54 ◼   ► clear about with Blink, is that Blink is not like a brand new web rendering engine from

01:02:59 ◼   ► Google and they're walking away from WebKit. Blink is Google saying we're taking a fork of WebKit as

01:03:05 ◼   ► it stands today and making our own new thing Blink starting with it. In the same way that WebKit

01:03:12 ◼   ► didn't start from scratch, it started with look we're going to take khtml and make this thing

01:03:17 ◼   ► called WebKit from it. You know, I think that that translation from Isaac that you talked to,

01:03:27 ◼   ► He seemed to me seem to be under the impression that they're talking up a new a brand new web engine in blink

01:03:34 ◼   ► But that's not what blink is

01:03:36 ◼   ► well

01:03:38 ◼   ► It could be in the future right like sir look. They they have a lot of you know

01:03:44 ◼   ► invested in in in in Chrome right Chrome OS and the Chrome browser

01:03:51 ◼   ► So it would make perfect sense for them to do what they need to do

01:03:55 ◼   ► to make that investment pay off properly.

01:03:58 ◼   ► - Well.

01:03:59 ◼   ► - I mean, look, just these are big companies

01:04:03 ◼   ► with big businesses, right?

01:04:05 ◼   ► I wouldn't put it past them to do it.

01:04:08 ◼   ► And you know, I wouldn't, I guess, yes,

01:04:12 ◼   ► as a user of the web and web services,

01:04:16 ◼   ► this is going to be a little bit painful

01:04:21 ◼   ► and not right, but I guess, you know,

01:04:24 ◼   ► what happens next is is still to be seen right I don't know if it's gonna be

01:04:31 ◼   ► painful I I'm I don't I think it's a different I think the way that these

01:04:34 ◼   ► browser wars go today is very different from those of the late 90s where it

01:04:43 ◼   ► really was so hard then to have even moderately complicated web app that

01:04:52 ◼   ► worked in all the major browsers and on Mac and Windows. It really was almost like you

01:04:57 ◼   ► had to rewrite it each time for each one and detect each one. And then when somebody else

01:05:03 ◼   ► came out with a new browser, it didn't work at all because it wasn't one of the browsers

01:05:06 ◼   ► you actually sniffed for and explicitly served the custom code for. I don't think that we're

01:05:12 ◼   ► seeing that anymore. I feel like, you know, I feel like there's this baseline of HTML5.

01:05:17 ◼   ► I feel like HTML5 standards thing has been so successful

01:05:23 ◼   ► that that's a really-- it's a pretty consistent baseline

01:05:25 ◼   ► that developers can hit.

01:05:27 ◼   ► And even IE does a pretty good job with it nowadays.

01:05:31 ◼   ► I think it's more about what's coming next, the next stuff.

01:05:36 ◼   ► It's not the stuff that we already have,

01:05:38 ◼   ► like how does the CSS3 we're already using render,

01:05:42 ◼   ► and what's the spacing, and stuff like that.

01:05:44 ◼   ► I think it's about stuff like for Google,

01:05:46 ◼   ► might be about like, what do they call it, NACL, the Native Client, which is just, you

01:05:54 ◼   ► know, hasn't really taken off yet. But I know a lot of people who really keenly think that

01:05:59 ◼   ► it might be a big new thing coming. But it's this way to get native code, code that runs

01:06:05 ◼   ► as fast as native compiled code, running in the browser, but with all the security advantages

01:06:12 ◼   ► of a browser where it's all sandboxed from your actual computer. So you're getting, you know,

01:06:17 ◼   ► you could have a game that runs through Chrome with native performance, not JavaScript performance,

01:06:24 ◼   ► not let's make JavaScript faster, but actual native performance and, you know, the hooking up to the

01:06:30 ◼   ► graphics processor on the computer and getting, you know, OpenGL and stuff like that.

01:06:41 ◼   ► But with the-- look, you don't have to install anything.

01:06:43 ◼   ► You just go to this URL and the native code loads,

01:06:47 ◼   ► just like you go to a website.

01:06:48 ◼   ► So getting that baked into their web rendering engine

01:06:53 ◼   ► at whatever layer they see as the best fit

01:06:56 ◼   ► is a huge win for Google, I think,

01:06:59 ◼   ► as opposed to trying to get Apple to allow them to put it

01:07:02 ◼   ► in the WebKit, which I think wasn't going to happen.

01:07:04 ◼   ► Whether that's for politics or whether Apple

01:07:08 ◼   ► has good reasons for that, you don't even have to--

01:07:10 ◼   ► you don't have to agree what the reason was. It's, you know, it just probably wasn't going to happen

01:07:14 ◼   ► as long as Apple was in charge of WebKit. But maybe Apple wants to do their own version of

01:07:19 ◼   ► that, right? Like that's pretty likely too. It very well could be. I definitely think so. And,

01:07:25 ◼   ► you know, and Apple, that's one of those ways that Apple and Google are different is that culturally

01:07:30 ◼   ► Google will talk about what it's doing first and then ship it. You know, Google Glass, another

01:07:36 ◼   ► example right been talking about it for a while been showing it for a while

01:07:40 ◼   ► having a preview you know the way Apple does stuff is they keep it secret secret

01:07:44 ◼   ► secret secret okay now it's for sale next week and that's the same way it was

01:07:48 ◼   ► with WebKit and what do you call it a multi-processing model where the the

01:07:55 ◼   ► rendering engine is separate from the browser application both for security

01:08:00 ◼   ► and hopefully for performance but you know so far in Safari I don't think it's

01:08:04 ◼   ► out that way for performance. But Chrome has this multi-process rendering model where each

01:08:11 ◼   ► tab you open gets a separate process called a WebKit renderer that just renders that tab.

01:08:20 ◼   ► Safari has one separate process that renders all of your tabs, but it is still a separate

01:08:24 ◼   ► process from the actual Safari browser application. But it's two totally different ways of doing

01:08:30 ◼   ► doing it. And you know, that's just one of the points of conflict between Google and

01:08:36 ◼   ► Apple and WebKit over the last few years.

01:08:39 ◼   ► You know, somebody really needs to write an explainer for human beings, right? Like, what

01:08:45 ◼   ► it really means for people. I mean, I'm trying to figure out, you know, what this really

01:08:51 ◼   ► means. And like, you know, and it's like really hard to understand.

01:08:54 ◼   ► I it's very hard for me to understand. And I've been as close to this stuff as you know,

01:09:00 ◼   ► I could be for all along. I mean all the way from like 1995, but it's really really hard.

01:09:05 ◼   ► I think it's you know web rendering engines have become so

01:09:08 ◼   ► sprawling in scope and so important to everybody in daily use that it's

01:09:13 ◼   ► It's almost hard to get your head wrapped around everything that they do

01:09:17 ◼   ► so

01:09:20 ◼   ► before we

01:09:22 ◼   ► Stop talking about this stuff. Can I ask you one question? You can ask me anything home?

01:09:27 ◼   ► So what does Apple do next in your opinion?

01:09:30 ◼   ► Overall or just with the web rendering engines no would like the product being a picture a big picture I

01:09:38 ◼   ► Think they just keep going as they've been going I think you know new iPhone

01:09:48 ◼   ► new iPads and

01:09:51 ◼   ► You know who knows what else but I don't know that they need to do much else

01:09:55 ◼   ► I think that hardware-wise, their machine has been working.

01:09:59 ◼   ► Machine meaning that the whole operation has been working just terrific, I think, year

01:10:05 ◼   ► after year pumping out significant improvements.

01:10:09 ◼   ► I think it's like we said half an hour ago, I think it's the cloud services is the big

01:10:14 ◼   ► can they do it.

01:10:15 ◼   ► Great.

01:10:16 ◼   ► Do you think they need to change a little bit how they work as a company?

01:10:23 ◼   ► the privacy they worked with in the past may have worked in the era of Steve Jobs when

01:10:28 ◼   ► he was the storyteller of the company or do they need to change their tactics?

01:10:34 ◼   ► You know, I was thinking about this earlier in the show and I didn't say it, but I do

01:10:37 ◼   ► think that one of the areas where maybe they really might need to change is with the cloud

01:10:42 ◼   ► services, I think that they need to iterate faster.

01:10:47 ◼   ► I think that this schedule of, we'll tell you what we've been up to at WWDC and then

01:10:55 ◼   ► you'll hear from us again in 12 months.

01:10:58 ◼   ► It doesn't, it works for hardware.

01:11:00 ◼   ► As frustrating as some people are that they don't talk about hardware, they don't release

01:11:04 ◼   ► a phone every three months or that they don't talk about new phones six months in advance,

01:11:09 ◼   ► you know, because people just are dying to know about it.

01:11:11 ◼   ► It does work for them to keep the hardware secret until they're ready.

01:11:16 ◼   ► sort of works for them with the system software because they can unveil it at something like

01:11:21 ◼   ► WWDC as a beta to get developers on board two three months in advance

01:11:25 ◼   ► But they get to unveil it at a show and and get a lot of publicity at it

01:11:31 ◼   ► but I think with the cloud stuff like you said Facebook is saying that they're going to be updating the

01:11:36 ◼   ► Facebook home on a monthly schedule

01:11:39 ◼   ► Right. I feel like with the iCloud stuff waiting a year between

01:11:46 ◼   ► updates to iCloud, it just doesn't work.

01:11:51 ◼   ► And it doesn't work for developers, and it doesn't work for users, right?

01:11:54 ◼   ► I feel like – and this core data syncing thing is the epitome of this problem, because

01:12:04 ◼   ► it's not just that they haven't fixed it.

01:12:07 ◼   ► It's that developers don't even know if they're going to fix it, right?

01:12:11 ◼   ► Apple actually even have-- is Apple taking this as seriously as the developers who are

01:12:16 ◼   ► depending upon it hope that they are? Nobody knows, right? So if you're this developer,

01:12:21 ◼   ► if you're developing an app for the iOS or the Mac or something like that, and your app

01:12:26 ◼   ► depends on Core Data, and you're hoping to use or you're trying to use, you've actually

01:12:30 ◼   ► got it in the store and it's supposed to be using Core Data syncing, but your users are

01:12:34 ◼   ► running into these bugs that are like wiping out their whole library on the iPhone, and

01:12:40 ◼   ► And then, you know, hopefully when it syncs, whatever's in the iCloud version is what they

01:12:44 ◼   ► had before.

01:12:45 ◼   ► And if not, they've lost data.

01:12:49 ◼   ► And you don't know.

01:12:50 ◼   ► Is Apple taking this seriously and you should wait, wait for WWDC because there's good news

01:12:55 ◼   ► coming?

01:12:56 ◼   ► But if you don't know, if you just, you ask and you get nothing back, what is that, what

01:13:01 ◼   ► should you do?

01:13:02 ◼   ► Should you wait anyway or should you decide, "I'm going to bite the bullet and rewrite

01:13:06 ◼   ► the whole thing from scratch and use something else?"

01:13:08 ◼   ► And I feel like that uncertainty is worse.

01:13:11 ◼   ► It's like the worst situation that the developers could be in.

01:13:15 ◼   ► So in terms of where Apple should go, I feel like with the iCloud stuff that developers

01:13:20 ◼   ► are relying on, I really feel like open maybe isn't the right word, but they just need to

01:13:25 ◼   ► iterate more quickly in terms of updates and in terms of conveying to developers where

01:13:32 ◼   ► this is going.

01:13:33 ◼   ► Right. I think that would be a good change if they made I would be in favor of something

01:13:40 ◼   ► like that. It'd be fun to see them kind of adopt to this new world in a different way.

01:13:46 ◼   ► Here's a here's another way to put it. There's an old adage, especially from the open source world

01:13:52 ◼   ► to ship early and often. And Apple's never been a ship early and often company Apple's been a

01:13:58 ◼   ► work on it and keep it and iterate. Do the often part. Do the iterate part, but do it

01:14:03 ◼   ► all internally and wait until it's ready and then ship it.

01:14:06 ◼   ► I feel like with iCloud, they did ship early. They unveiled iCloud as early as they feasibly

01:14:14 ◼   ► could. And some of the stuff, like I said, the key value storage stuff worked great.

01:14:18 ◼   ► I think the backup stuff has worked great, and I think it was worth unveiling. The core

01:14:22 ◼   ► data stuff obviously hasn't. They did the early part, but they haven't done the often

01:14:26 ◼   ► part and I feel like they go together. You suffer if you do the early

01:14:31 ◼   ► without the often. Well let's see how they change and they adapt. So what do

01:14:37 ◼   ► you think Apple is going to do? What do you think the rest of the year for Apple

01:14:41 ◼   ► is going to look like? So I am not a big believer in the iWatch that's number one.

01:14:48 ◼   ► I don't think they should be even bothering with stuff like that. I do

01:14:53 ◼   ► I do believe that they will do something you will wear.

01:14:58 ◼   ► They will make a wearable computer,

01:15:00 ◼   ► whether it's for health reasons or it's a sensor device

01:15:04 ◼   ► which uses your iPhone to do interesting things.

01:15:07 ◼   ► That would be my number one prediction,

01:15:11 ◼   ► that that is something they will release, not the iWatch.

01:15:14 ◼   ► And the number two I think they will do

01:15:18 ◼   ► and they are probably thinking about is

01:15:22 ◼   ► how do they create a more jointed experience inside of iOS, like how to

01:15:33 ◼   ► make all these applications talk to each other and make the

01:15:38 ◼   ► interface more useful and more contextual, sort of like how they started

01:15:43 ◼   ► off with the notifications and with notification type functionality

01:15:49 ◼   ► becoming more center stage.

01:15:52 ◼   ► That is something I hope they're working on, they should be working on, and thinking about.

01:15:58 ◼   ► I think that would be my prediction for next 12 to 18 months.

01:16:03 ◼   ► That is the direction, those two things.

01:16:05 ◼   ► Dave Asprey Yeah, I would love for WWDC, I would love

01:16:10 ◼   ► for the major announcements to be significant improvements to iCloud, and maybe even secondarily,

01:16:17 ◼   ► and better inter-application communication.

01:16:23 ◼   ► And I really do hope that that's what they've been working on, and I really do hope that

01:16:30 ◼   ► the things we saw last year with the little tweet sheets and the Facebook status update

01:16:35 ◼   ► sheets are examples of what they are working on a way to open up to third-party developers,

01:16:45 ◼   ► right?

01:16:46 ◼   ► two these two ones that they're going to bake into the system but that

01:16:51 ◼   ► hopefully I would love it in iOS 7 if something like that could anybody could

01:16:56 ◼   ► have it so like what Marco Arment could have a send to instapaper sheet that any

01:17:01 ◼   ► app if you have instapaper installed when you hit the share button the send

01:17:05 ◼   ► to instapaper thing automatically shows up and then the URL that the app has

01:17:11 ◼   ► has, whatever app, whether it's a Twitter client or an email app or anything, you hit

01:17:18 ◼   ► this share, there's send to Instapaper, and a Marco-designed sheet drops down. You don't

01:17:23 ◼   ► switch to the app. This sheet drops down right in the app and lets you set which folder it's

01:17:29 ◼   ► going to and set a title for it or something like that and send it. That sort of integration,

01:17:38 ◼   ► I think it's almost limitless what the things could be.

01:17:42 ◼   ► And it's definitely an area where they're behind

01:17:45 ◼   ► both Android and Windows Phone 7,

01:17:47 ◼   ► which have things more or less like that.

01:17:50 ◼   ► - Yep, and you know, last point I wanna make, John,

01:17:56 ◼   ► I think people who write about Apple

01:17:59 ◼   ► and I think their job has become much tougher

01:18:04 ◼   ► in the post-Steve Jobs multi-competition landscape,

01:18:09 ◼   ► because not everything Apple is gonna do is gonna be great.

01:18:14 ◼   ► And I think it is gonna be good for us to think about that

01:18:19 ◼   ► and make them constantly think about

01:18:22 ◼   ► what they're doing wrong.

01:18:23 ◼   ► I think it's like a hard thing to do,

01:18:25 ◼   ► but I think the blogging community doesn't talk about

01:18:29 ◼   ► the things they're not doing well as often.

01:18:32 ◼   ► So I wish they would-- I think it's something which-- I think

01:18:39 ◼   ► about a lot.

01:18:39 ◼   ► I think it's important to kind of remind them

01:18:42 ◼   ► that they need to be thinking about the internet.

01:18:44 ◼   ► They need to be thinking about data.

01:18:47 ◼   ► They need to be thinking about how

01:18:48 ◼   ► to build these new connected experiences.

01:18:53 ◼   ► And I wish-- it would be good to have a more deeper dialogue

01:19:00 ◼   ► with the company as well.

01:19:02 ◼   ► I think that's something we should talk about more often.

01:19:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, well, and-- - That's my wish list, right?

01:19:07 ◼   ► Like, I mean, I'm not, it's not like a,

01:19:09 ◼   ► like, I think about the world in that sort of a way,

01:19:14 ◼   ► so I guess I'm thinking in,

01:19:16 ◼   ► with those parameters right now about everything.

01:19:22 ◼   ► - It's, you know, it's funny,

01:19:23 ◼   ► because we just this past week

01:19:25 ◼   ► had the three-year anniversary

01:19:26 ◼   ► of when the original iPad shipped,

01:19:28 ◼   ► And it just seems crazy that it was only three years ago.

01:19:33 ◼   ► Because it's like, I really can't even

01:19:35 ◼   ► imagine what it was like going on an airplane

01:19:37 ◼   ► and not seeing everybody holding an iPad of one shape or another.

01:19:41 ◼   ► And the people who don't have an iPad

01:19:43 ◼   ► have some kind of iPad knockoff.

01:19:47 ◼   ► It seems crazy.

01:19:48 ◼   ► But on the other hand, here we are three years in,

01:19:52 ◼   ► and it still is so hard to send something from one app

01:19:55 ◼   ► to another, other than just copy and paste,

01:19:58 ◼   ► which is, you know, it doesn't even work for some things.

01:20:02 ◼   ► And I feel like there's an under appreciation

01:20:05 ◼   ► for the amount of work people actually want to do.

01:20:08 ◼   ► I mean, I'm saying from Apple's perspective,

01:20:10 ◼   ► the work that people want to do,

01:20:11 ◼   ► but that requires more integration

01:20:15 ◼   ► between different applications.

01:20:17 ◼   ► You know, that work on computers is no longer,

01:20:22 ◼   ► you know, right from day one,

01:20:23 ◼   ► they had the numbers spreadsheet, right?

01:20:25 ◼   ► But how many people really spend,

01:20:26 ◼   ► I mean, I know some people do,

01:20:28 ◼   ► But most people I know don't really sit down and spend hours working on spreadsheets anymore.

01:20:32 ◼   ► That was like 20 years ago.

01:20:34 ◼   ► People don't just open their iPad and work on a spreadsheet.

01:20:37 ◼   ► It's this sort of back and forth interplay between applications and data that keeps coming

01:20:42 ◼   ► in over the internet.

01:20:44 ◼   ► Right.

01:20:45 ◼   ► You know, it is a lot of things going on right now.

01:20:53 ◼   ► I think even as I sit today and I think about what does the world look like going forward,

01:21:05 ◼   ► it's so hard to even project today.

01:21:09 ◼   ► Five years ago, in 2007, when the iPhone came, it was fairly easy to see and actually draw

01:21:18 ◼   ► a linear conclusion as to where the mobile world was gonna go, right?

01:21:24 ◼   ► Like this is where everybody was gonna copy that design and that user experience and now

01:21:31 ◼   ► suddenly it's not as clear.

01:21:34 ◼   ► Like the whole world either seems to be moving forward at a much rapid space or at the end

01:21:40 ◼   ► at the same time it's stuck in the same place.

01:21:43 ◼   ► So it just is like a really hard time to figure out what's going on in technology.

01:21:47 ◼   ► I agree. And it's, you know, the three year anniversary of the iPad makes for a nice halfway

01:21:53 ◼   ► point for the distance from the iPhone, right? So the iPad came three years after the iPhone.

01:22:01 ◼   ► So when the iPad shipped three years ago, the iPhone was still as new then as the iPad

01:22:06 ◼   ► is today. Does that make sense?

01:22:07 ◼   ► Right.

01:22:08 ◼   ► Six years ago was the iPhone. Three years in, we had the iPad. Now we're another three

01:22:12 ◼   ► years later and the iPhone is certainly and and certainly iPhone like phones are

01:22:18 ◼   ► they're just that's just the baseline we just we just assume that now right I do

01:22:25 ◼   ► feel like it were at an interesting juncture as to where we go next well you

01:22:29 ◼   ► and I will keep talking about it and writing about it and it'll be fun who

01:22:34 ◼   ► knows maybe I'll be out soon to see a new new iDevice possibly great well I

01:22:39 ◼   ► I will look forward to seeing you.

01:22:41 ◼   ► - Yeah, save me a seat in the room.

01:22:42 ◼   ► I'll sit next to you.

01:22:43 ◼   ► - Absolutely.

01:22:44 ◼   ► - Om, thanks for being here.

01:22:45 ◼   ► Om Malik, you can always read more at GigaOm.com.

01:22:49 ◼   ► Everybody probably reads it every day,

01:22:50 ◼   ► and he's got the shortest Twitter handle

01:22:52 ◼   ► of anybody I know, O-M.

01:22:55 ◼   ► Thanks, Om.

01:22:56 ◼   ► - Thank you, John, for having me.

01:22:57 ◼   ► It's always wonderful to talk to you.