0:00:00You know, one thing I've noticed--
0:00:01I have noticed, I thought about this last week--
0:00:03that I'm better friends in general with programmers.
0:00:07Programmers make for good people, in my opinion.
0:00:11Better friends than what?
0:00:12Like other journalists?
0:00:14Well, you know, not that there's anything
0:00:16wrong with other journalists.
0:00:17But I don't know.
0:00:21To me, there's something-- like the way that programmers' minds
0:00:24work, something about it appeals to me.
0:00:30Like, one thing I've noticed over the years-- and we very seldom do this, you and I, sometimes
0:00:34once in a while, very occasionally while we're at a conference, we'll get together and have
0:00:38a drink or something like that.
0:00:39Yeah, you're a bit of a teetotaler.
0:00:42Exactly.
0:00:43In all seriousness, it's not like we get there and anybody really in general talks politics.
0:00:50But I have noticed over the years that two programmers of different political allegiances
0:00:59can have a reasonable discussion in a way that almost nobody else, if one is a conservative,
0:01:05the other is a liberal, you know, a Republican, a Democrat, whatever you guys have up there
0:01:09in Montreal.
0:01:10But you could be on different sides.
0:01:13And programmers can have, because their minds work in a very logical way, that they can
0:01:18have a reasonable discourse about politics.
0:01:21That's not to say one's going to agree with the other, but it doesn't devolve into ad
0:01:27hominem arguments.
0:01:28It's interesting you say that.
0:01:31I agree, actually, yeah.
0:01:32I've had a lot of discussions with people that I don't agree with politically, but it's
0:01:36always remained pretty civil.
0:01:42And I think you're right.
0:01:43I think it's like an analytical point of view, where the other guy has a good point.
0:01:46well okay you accept the point and you move on because if you're arguing about
0:01:51design or something like that well that's always going to be subjective but
0:01:55there's an awful lot of programming when you're collaborating with someone where
0:01:58it's like math it either works or it doesn't work right I mean ultimately
0:02:02your the feature either works or doesn't you know I mean you may have designed it
0:02:07poorly but there's a very concrete like does it crash or does it actually
0:02:10achieve the result that you want right are you getting 60 frames per second or
0:02:15or you're not getting sixty frames per second industry
0:02:18yesterday binary exactly
0:02:20and i feel that it makes it in the same way that that works for technical
0:02:24arguments emerge for political arguments just
0:02:27to shoot an issue about movies it also makes for good conversation
0:02:33idea and i could because he that i mean movies is a bit different is that
0:02:37getting subjected to that one right like what's your
0:02:39sixty frames per second for movie like what's your objective when you try to
0:02:42achieve
0:02:44It's kind of-- it's not obvious.
0:02:47Still makes-- but it's that sort of mindset still
0:02:49makes for good conversation.
0:02:51It's why I do--
0:02:52I just have-- once I get back and I catch up on sleep
0:02:56a little bit, it always occurs to me that I just have--
0:02:58I have a great time at WWDC.
0:03:01Yeah, I have a blast, too.
0:03:03But I mean, you've got a--
0:03:04I mean, you're a very analytical kind of guy.
0:03:06So I'm not surprised that you find that refreshing.
0:03:13Right.
0:03:13you know even the journalists who are on the same beat the guys who work at Mac
0:03:16World and stuff like that I mean they're you know they may not be programmers but
0:03:20they're closer to being programmers than most people who can you know say that
0:03:24they're writers. I think they're very analytical, yeah it's like a lot of
0:03:29analytical people. Right and I think that's why you know like Jason Snell's
0:03:33podcast the the incomparable where they talk about movies and science fiction
0:03:37and stuff like that that it's more interesting to me than than your you
0:03:41know, a general purpose science fiction movie podcast would be because their approach to it is
0:03:47is again analytical. Yeah, I agree. I'm a big fan of that show. And again, they dissect
0:03:55the subject and lovingly, but they do like a really good job of sort of tearing it down,
0:04:00breaking it apart and saying what they like and don't like about it. And when they disagree,
0:04:04it is it's uh it's a good argument it's you know right
0:04:09right
0:04:11do we get any fights last week i don't remember uh
0:04:15i don't know you had a black eye like tuesday morning i don't know what
0:04:18happened is that amy could have been amy i don't
0:04:21know maybe i know you know what she was very excited that you're going to be on
0:04:23the show this week oh yeah yeah that's just
0:04:27yeah she actually said that she might listen to it this time really
0:04:30yeah it's that's high praise she didn't even listen to to cable so
0:04:34She was...
0:04:36That's true. You know, a couple people told me that.
0:04:39That they were like, at the live show last week, they said that, you know, all that noise in the back of the room,
0:04:46you know, that was your wife.
0:04:48It was also, it was her who texted me that they'd closed the bar.
0:04:55Oh, was it? I thought it was mine.
0:04:58Oh, both of them did. I got two texts during the show.
0:05:01That's awesome. I considered it and then it decided to be polite.
0:05:03Right, from my wife and from the guy who owns the podcast network I'm on.
0:05:09They're the two people who wanted the bar reopened rather than to listen to the show.
0:05:14Well, I gotta tell you, once the bar opened, I stopped listening to your show.
0:05:20Well, my thought was...
0:05:22I listened after. I went back and listened to it again. Cable's awesome.
0:05:26Oh, Cable is. It's unbelievable.
0:05:28Very, very tough for active fellow.
0:05:29I keep saying to people that with bringing them up there for the live shows. It's cheating. It's really like, you know
0:05:35It's it's it's just cheating. So you show up for your neighborhood
0:05:39three-on-three basketball game and you've you've brought Kareem Abdul-Jabbar with you and
0:05:45Seven foot two and
0:05:48Like personality wise it's cable. The cable sasser is like the the size of Hockenberry
0:05:55Not that not that Hockenberry doesn't have a great personality, but I mean he's got like a just a towering
0:06:00Immense uses he's a giant of a personality right so you know what's funny. I was trying to reach for a
0:06:07Some kind of baseball metaphor to describe
0:06:10Cable, but you went with the cream of dual jaguar once I was trying to play you a sports game
0:06:15But you beat me to it. Well basketball is the rare sport where you can
0:06:23You could bring in a guy who's seven foot two and then that's it. There's nothing anybody can do we're gonna
0:06:28I mean, there's nothing in baseball that's quite like that
0:06:30I mean you could have I guess a pickup game and if you brought in the top pitcher in the major leagues
0:06:35Nobody's gonna hit the guy but it's not gonna be quite as obscene as you know, seven footer literally a giant, right?
0:06:42Yeah, but I thought that the live show went well
0:06:48Yeah, my snap judgment on that though the bar situation was and I couldn't really think about it or discuss it because cable
0:06:54And I were in mid discussion
0:06:55But I'm just and that's the way I think you make better
0:06:58Decisions like that if you just have to make the decision instantly you make the right one and my thought was
0:07:03Everybody if if we open the bar and it gets noisy in the back and people can't listen to the show
0:07:13They can always listen to the download version the next day or next week whenever
0:07:18Whereas if we keep the bar closed, they're never gonna get another chance to have that drink. I
0:07:22Can't agree with you more that's what I did if they listen to the show like the next day or whenever it came out
0:07:31walking around San Francisco
0:07:34But yeah, that was a day so whatever I got a follow cable thanks a lot for that man
0:07:42My guest this week, I should probably say, is Guy English.
0:07:46Guy, thanks for being here.
0:07:48No, it's a pleasure.
0:07:49So Guy's background, I don't even know how to describe it. What do you do?
0:07:54I'm a programmer.
0:07:57But you specialize in graphics, more or less.
0:08:00Yeah, I mean, I worked in the PC game industry for years, and then I did some stuff on the consoles, like PSP stuff.
0:08:09Then I left and joined Rogue Amoeba and I did a bunch of Mac software.
0:08:14And then when the iPhone came out, I started contracting.
0:08:19I've done a lot of work on games and graphics in particular.
0:08:22But you're like a guy who's going to sweat the details on frames per second.
0:08:26Yeah.
0:08:31You're going to make something that's supposed to animate.
0:08:32You're going to sweat the details to make it smooth.
0:08:35Yes, that's pretty much what I do.
0:08:35optimize stuff, you know, get the algorithms working, figure out the pipeline to make the
0:08:40process work smoothly.
0:08:42Right.
0:08:43Yeah.
0:08:44I still think, I think that there's some other WWDC news to talk about.
0:08:47Yeah.
0:08:48I think everybody has sort of talked the retina MacBook Pro more or less to death.
0:08:55Right.
0:08:56But there is something about that that I don't, I don't think I talked about this with cable
0:09:00last week because I don't I don't think I'd had the machine long enough and you
0:09:07you've seen it too and the thing that they got me and stop me if I did talk
0:09:12about this with cable it's all a kind of a blur but that the pixels per inch is
0:09:19lower than on the iPad than on the iPhone iPhone is like 300 and some that
0:09:24iPad is 267 pixels per inch in that retina MacBook Pro is 220 pixels per
0:09:30Right.
0:09:31And so I kind of thought, well, you know, I knew it was going to look awesome, but I
0:09:35kind of thought maybe it wouldn't look as awesome as the phone and iPad because it's
0:09:40just not as many pixels per inch.
0:09:41And I know that part of that is about expected viewing distance from the screen, and you
0:09:46tend to be further away from a 15-inch laptop than you are from an iPad, and you tend to
0:09:51hold an iPhone really close to your face.
0:09:55But what I have found in the week now that I'm really using this machine is that text
0:10:00looks way better than even the phone and the iPad.
0:10:06It's blowing me away that it looks even better, that it actually makes me start to see the
0:10:12pixels on the iPad and the iPhone retina displays.
0:10:14I think I know what it is.
0:10:16And it's the subpixel anti-aliasing, which is only on the Mac and not on iOS for various
0:10:24reasons and I know some pixel anti-aliasing is still somewhat
0:10:29controversial amongst those of us who really care about like anti aliasing
0:10:33algorithms because I know like Mike Mattis had a tweet a couple weeks ago
0:10:37he told everybody they should just turn it off that everything looks better if
0:10:40you don't if you don't have it yeah and I guess I mean for anybody who doesn't
0:10:47know the difference I mean I don't want this is one of those things where I
0:10:50could take 20 minutes to explain it. But on the Mac, it defaults to, they call it best
0:10:57for LCD. And the idea is that you use the red, green, and blue sub-pixels that comprise
0:11:07each actual pixel on the screen. You use the physical location of them to do the anti-aliasing,
0:11:15which if you zoom in, if you take a screenshot and zoom it way up, you actually get like
0:11:18like these weird color fringes around the letters. So if you have black text on a white
0:11:24background, traditional anti-aliasing, the anti-aliasing would be done with shades of
0:11:29gray, which makes sense. Common sense would tell you that's how you would make these pixels
0:11:34look smoother, the curves look smoother. With subpixel anti-aliasing, it's actually colors,
0:11:41and it looks really weird if you zoom in. And some people, if the pixels on your display
0:11:45big enough can see it with their naked eye and that bothers them and it also does some
0:11:49weird things where it kind of makes I think on older displays with bigger pixels it makes
0:11:55the fonts look thicker, chunkier.
0:11:59Well chunkier than without any kind of anti-aliasing.
0:12:02Right.
0:12:03Because if you, yeah, if you still like…
0:12:05But maybe chunkier than with traditional grayscale anti-aliasing, I think, that makes it look
0:12:10like Bolt makes everything look a little bolder.
0:12:13You don't think so?
0:12:14I don't think so because I mean the traditional grayscale, all three of those pixels are going
0:12:20to be lit up, like sub pixels are going to be lit up, right?
0:12:23Right.
0:12:24I don't know, maybe.
0:12:26You know what, I'd have to see it side by side.
0:12:28But either way, there's visual artifacts.
0:12:32And I think that the idea was that if the pixels get small enough, you don't really
0:12:36have to worry about sub pixel anti-aliasing, that regular anti-aliasing is good enough
0:12:40because the pixels are so small.
0:12:41But using the MacBook Pro for a week, there's no doubt in my mind that sub-pixel anti-aliasing
0:12:48still makes a difference.
0:12:49It makes everything look – it makes text look just impossibly good.
0:12:54And you can see it because there are still parts in Mac OS 10.7, stuff that – you're
0:13:01going to correct me.
0:13:02This is one of the reasons I have you on the show is stuff that's drawn into a layer-backed
0:13:06view – is that right?
0:13:07is not, doesn't get the sub-pixel anti-aliasing.
0:13:13That's correct on 10.7, yeah.
0:13:15And so you can see this, the easy way that everybody can see it is with the transparent
0:13:19menu bar that Apple introduced a couple of versions of Mac OS X where you can see, half
0:13:25see your desktop through your menu bar.
0:13:28The text in the menu bar therefore gets the non-sub-pixel anti-aliasing.
0:13:34And on the MacBook Retina MacBook Pro, you can really see the difference.
0:13:38I mean, it looks good.
0:13:39It certainly looks better than any text on a non-Retina Mac, but it doesn't look as good
0:13:44as the rest of the text throughout Mac OS X on that Retina display.
0:13:49So you…
0:13:51Okay.
0:13:52Well, I mean, so I looked at, you know, I looked at your review and the MacWorld one,
0:13:59and I loved it.
0:14:00I mean, the text looked amazing, but I didn't…
0:14:03you know i'd probably should done and it is indeed injected allowed but it didn't
0:14:06bother uh...
0:14:08do you find it great like now
0:14:11because almost everything is a pixel and a list
0:14:15so it's just you know it's like ed
0:14:17it's it's not grading because it's like looking at
0:14:20very very good text and insanely very good text
0:14:24but you can see the difference you could see you can start
0:14:27on the menu bar you can see pixels if you get close enough
0:14:30When you're looking inside a safari window, forget it.
0:14:33I mean, I can get as close as I want.
0:14:35And it's really funny.
0:14:36It's like, I've spent this week not really using it so much,
0:14:42but just getting my nose up almost up against the screen
0:14:45and trying to see the details.
0:14:47Yeah.
0:14:48That's what-- I think that's what everybody does.
0:14:50First time they get one, they just
0:14:51stick their face right up to it and basically try
0:14:54to find pixel.
0:14:55But it really does.
0:14:55With text especially, it is--
0:14:58to the naked eye, you get as close as you want,
0:15:00and you just don't see pixels even the way you can when you get real close to the iPhone
0:15:044 and stuff like that.
0:15:05Right.
0:15:06Well, I mean, so they don't do – I think you know this, but they don't do sub-pixel
0:15:10anti-aliasing on the devices because you can change the orientation.
0:15:14And when you change the orientation, you can't rely on the layout of the sub-pixels the same
0:15:19way you can on a desktop.
0:15:21That was so amazing because I swear to you that was my next question.
0:15:24And I believe that we've – I've asked you this privately like an instant messenger
0:15:28years ago. But you, you're my go-to guy for questions like that. That was my question.
0:15:33So why don't they do subpixel anti-aliasing on…
0:15:37Right. Okay.
0:15:39So, and it's because it, so your answer is more or less because it actually relies
0:15:43on the order RGB of the subpixels.
0:15:47Exactly. It's a physical layout. So if you picture the, you know, going from left to
0:15:51write on your screen, it's RGB, RGB, RGB, RGB.
0:15:56And you can rely on that when you're drawing your shape, your letter shape.
0:16:01But now flip that so that it's in vertical orientation, and it's no longer the same way, right?
0:16:06It's like it's RGB going downwards rather than going across.
0:16:12So the algorithm has to change and it's basically just, since you can't rely on the layout of where the sub-pixel is going to be,
0:16:19you can't really use the same algorithm.
0:16:22And since the phone is so high density, they just don't bother.
0:16:25Even the original phone was high density.
0:16:28So one of the changes in Mountain Lion, which references back
0:16:32to what I was saying before, is one of the new things in Mountain Lion
0:16:35is that text in layer-backed views now gets the subpixel anti-aliasing.
0:16:42Yes.
0:16:43And this has been a long time in the works.
0:16:45Right.
0:16:46Well, it's not an easy thing to do because a layer is--
0:16:53I'm trying to figure out how to describe it.
0:16:55But I mean, so if you think of onion paper,
0:16:59when you draw on something and you
0:17:01can overlay it on something else so you can see what's below it.
0:17:04Basically, layers are like that.
0:17:05You draw something on a layer, and then you
0:17:06place it over something else so you can see what's below it.
0:17:09And you composite the scene with a series
0:17:12of these sort of transparent layers.
0:17:15Now the issue with anti-aliasing text is that you need to anti-alias it against the background.
0:17:20So if you're drawing text into a transparent layer,
0:17:26as you're drawing the text, you don't know what the background is going to be.
0:17:30And the background could be animated.
0:17:34It could be animated, exactly.
0:17:36It could be a lot of things.
0:17:38So it's not obvious how to correctly anti-alias the text.
0:17:43So they've fixed this in Mountain Lion.
0:17:48They've changed the way that they handled venturing the text
0:17:50so that it does actually manage to anti-alias
0:17:53in a layer-back view.
0:17:57Which is amazing because I think we'll talk about it later.
0:17:58But I'm working on a Mac app,
0:18:03and we had a plan to make anti-alias layer-back text work.
0:18:05And it was going to be a huge pain in the ass to do.
0:18:11But Mountain Lion just solves the problem for us,
0:18:10So we don't need to worry about that.
0:18:12We can come back to that later.
0:18:15And so one of the things, and another thing that we're going to come back to later, but
0:18:19while we're on the anti-aliasing, I should mention it, is with the Microsoft Surface
0:18:23tablets, which they're saying with their displays, they're saying they have these clear type
0:18:28HD and clear type full HD displays.
0:18:33And clear type is Microsoft's name for their anti-aliasing algorithm.
0:18:38Yeah.
0:18:39Anybody who's a nerd and really sweats these details will know that if you look at anti-aliased
0:18:44text on Mac and the same fonts, like on a web page, say, on Windows, it looks different
0:18:49because they have a different anti-aliasing algorithm, which some people prefer, other
0:18:53people don't, but they call it clear type.
0:18:55Right.
0:18:56It's the original sub-pixel anti-aliasing, actually.
0:18:59I believe that is true.
0:19:01Well, I think Woz did something on the Apple tier.
0:19:05But that's one of the things that stuck out to me.
0:19:07Was it everything for me? Exactly. One of the things that that struck me that with the
0:19:13announcement was exactly what we just talked about was that that on iOS devices, you don't
0:19:20get sub pixel anti aliasing because you're going to rotate the display and they can't
0:19:25order it. So then they say these things have clear type displays. I wonder how they did
0:19:28that. And I believe what were you gonna say? I just redefined the term. Yeah, that they're
0:19:35they're not really doing, it has nothing to do with the old clear type. They're just reusing
0:19:39the name in the same way that they're reusing surface, right, which used to mean this ban
0:19:44you clear type just means a higher density display. That's my take on it. All right.
0:19:47Do you ever see the old surface, the big tabletop thing? In person? No, I did once I saw one
0:19:53up at Drexel University a couple of about a year ago, I think, or sometime in the last
0:19:58year, I was up there to do a little talk and a guy ran a like a robotics engineering lab
0:20:04but invited me to do a little talk here in Philadelphia.
0:20:08And they had a Surface, and he let me play with it for a while.
0:20:11And I could not believe how laggy it was.
0:20:13And he was like, yeah, the latency is just dreadful.
0:20:16They had it, and they were doing some cool stuff with it.
0:20:19They were doing some really cool stuff with mapping with it,
0:20:24like the grad students, but that they were just getting killed.
0:20:26The latency was just deadly.
0:20:29I think even pre-iPad, everybody would agree.
0:20:33It was laggy by any standards, but compared to what everybody was used to, it was horrendous.
0:20:39I don't know that it would have taken off regardless.
0:20:41It was sort of—
0:20:42Oh, it wasn't going to take off.
0:20:45It was kind of expensive.
0:20:46It was big and bulky and how many people need that kind of stuff.
0:20:48I thought it was a cool idea.
0:20:49It was pretty interesting.
0:20:50But you know what?
0:20:51That shipped the same year as the iPhone.
0:20:55I cannot believe how ideal it was.
0:20:57You know what, though?
0:20:58I think long-term, though, somebody is going to make something like that.
0:21:01Yeah.
0:21:02Ten years from now, wouldn't Apple have something that size, running iOS?
0:21:07Maybe. I think it's an interesting form factor. I think you can do things in a shared space
0:21:12and collaborate with it in an interesting way.
0:21:17I don't think they've nailed it, but I think they've got an idea that's pretty decent.
0:21:20It would be to iOS what the Mac Pro is to Mac OS X.
0:21:25Something for, you know, that they're only going to sell a very small sliver compared to the mass market,
0:21:29but that you could charge a lot of money, and the people who need it really want it.
0:21:32Right.
0:21:33You know, I could see that kind of thing in a store.
0:21:36Right.
0:21:37Totally.
0:21:38Or, you know, all sorts of retail-type situations, I think.
0:21:43Or a classroom or something like that.
0:21:44Yeah.
0:21:45It's like a shared space.
0:21:46It's a very flexible workspace.
0:21:49Not to mention, it's actually flat, and you can put stuff on it.
0:21:52Right.
0:21:53Which is, you know, opens up a bunch of other interesting possibilities.
0:21:58With the sub-pixel anti-aliasing, I know one way that everybody, I always see it, is when
0:22:02people are dicking around with CSS and using transparent layers in CSS, then it instantly
0:22:10ticks the text into the non-sub-pixel anti-aliased thing.
0:22:16I wonder if that gets fixed automatically now on 10.8.
0:22:20I don't know.
0:22:21I have to look at that.
0:22:22I bet the WebKit guys will make it work.
0:22:24If the system supports it, I'll bet they do.
0:22:27Yeah.
0:22:28some pretty fancy stuff.
0:22:29So yeah, that's interesting.
0:22:32I mean, have you seen it?
0:22:33Have you, oh yeah, you're not running 10.8 on that thing.
0:22:35- You know what, but I'm thinking after,
0:22:38I was thinking that I should though.
0:22:40That's what I was thinking before I do finish my review.
0:22:42I'm gonna, you know, I don't know.
0:22:44I feel a little bad putting a beta on an Apple loaner,
0:22:48but I feel like even if it goes bad,
0:22:50I can always just reinstall the line on the thing.
0:22:52- Well, I mean, if you got like a USB drive,
0:22:54just boot off that and put it on that, you know?
0:22:57Yeah, I guess so. I don't know. That might be… I don't know.
0:23:01I don't think they're going to care that you put… I really don't think they're
0:23:05going to give you…
0:23:06Yeah, I don't think so either. But I do feel… I would feel a little guilty mailing
0:23:09it back to them, like if it were bricked.
0:23:10Like all buts done.
0:23:11Yeah, it's like a brick door.
0:23:13Exactly. Thanks. Thanks for the match.
0:23:17I do. And I don't know. I, too… I try to take good care of all my stuff. I mean,
0:23:22My knock on wood, my iPhone 4S is still in perfect shape.
0:23:27But with the Apple review stuff, I take extra good care of it.
0:23:30And I'm sure they actually don't care.
0:23:32If you mailed it back and it was nicked up and had dings on it and stuff, what do they
0:23:36care?
0:23:37I mean, they give the things out like candy.
0:23:38But I feel like, I don't know, it's like a sense of politeness.
0:23:44When you're in somebody else's home, you're more careful, as careful as you are in your
0:23:49own home not to put your shoes on the furniture, I'm twice as careful in somebody else's
0:23:54home.
0:23:55And that's what I feel like when I'm using the Apple refugium.
0:23:56Right.
0:23:57Well, I mean, if it makes you feel any better, I wouldn't trust anything that you mailed
0:24:01me back that had been in your home for a while either.
0:24:03I just, you know, things going right in the furnace.
0:24:06Right.
0:24:07I'm done with it.
0:24:09That is true.
0:24:10I bet that is what they do too, that I mail it back to them and they just like white gloves,
0:24:14they just turn it upside down and put it into an incinerator.
0:24:18I'll bet they do.
0:24:19It's the only sensible thing to do.
0:24:21Right.
0:24:22Right into whatever they recycle the stuff.
0:24:26Somebody said, "Do you know anything about this?"
0:24:28I'm sort of jumping all over the place here.
0:24:30There was a thing about the MacBook Pro not being upgradeable and that you can't get
0:24:36into it and blah, blah, blah.
0:24:37The iFixit guy, he also said that he talked to his pals in the recycling industry and
0:24:42And that the way it's all glued together means that they don't know how it could be recycled.
0:24:48I thought that was nonsense because I thought if you wanted to recycle an Apple product
0:24:51that you're not using anymore, you just go into the Apple store and say, "Here, I'm done
0:24:54with this thing."
0:24:55And then they just take it.
0:24:56It's their problem.
0:24:57Yeah, I've done it.
0:24:58Yeah, I haven't done it in a while.
0:25:00I've sort of let a lot of my old Apple kit that I own pile up.
0:25:04But I was thinking it actually reminded me that maybe I should bring some of this stuff
0:25:07in.
0:25:08Like, do I really need a PowerPC PowerBook anymore?
0:25:11Probably not.
0:25:12Maybe not.
0:25:13Maybe it would get me to shut up and stop calling MacBook Pros "power books" if
0:25:18I actually did.
0:25:19But that's what I thought is it's not your problem.
0:25:21You don't have to go.
0:25:22It's not like you buy a MacBook Pro and then when you want to recycle it, you've
0:25:25got to go and pry it apart with a screwdriver and separate the aluminum from the glass and
0:25:30all that.
0:25:31You just give it to Apple and it's their problem.
0:25:32Yeah, no.
0:25:33I mean, that guy had a beef.
0:25:34He had a bone to grind.
0:25:36And then, you know, it just takes one.
0:25:37He calls up his recycling buddy and being like, "Hey, do you know how to recycle this?"
0:25:41And the guy's like, no.
0:25:43Well, it's not like you can't figure it out.
0:25:46You know what I mean?
0:25:47That's just silly.
0:25:48That whole scandal is ridiculous to me.
0:25:51I don't understand it at all.
0:25:53Yeah, it's bizarre.
0:25:55I mean, I used to build my own PCs and stuff.
0:25:57And that's over.
0:25:59It's done.
0:26:00I get over it.
0:26:01Move on.
0:26:02I can't believe people--
0:26:03the thing that gets me is that everybody acts each time
0:26:05like it's a new story.
0:26:06Right.
0:26:08I remember you used to be able to buy--
0:26:10even on a Mac, it wasn't even just a PC thing,
0:26:13you could buy processor upgrades.
0:26:16Like the magazines, Macworld was full of them.
0:26:19It was a huge thing because your computer did cost,
0:26:21it cost so much back then.
0:26:23You'd buy a new Mac 2ci in 1991, and it was like five grand.
0:26:28And then two years later, you could buy a CPU upgrade
0:26:35for $900 rather than buy a new $4,000 computer.
0:26:39Well, that was actually, you know, it's a pretty reasonable thing to do.
0:26:43You know, I mean, I don't think I ever bought a processor upgrade, but it was always nice
0:26:47to know that you could.
0:26:48Jon Streeter Right.
0:26:50And I think that sort of comfort is what some people are missing.
0:26:53But I think he nailed it with the price.
0:26:57When it's 5,000 bucks, that's a lot of money.
0:27:00I'm going to keep it going, you know.
0:27:01But when, like, what's this Vetnamac?
0:27:042,200 something?
0:27:05I think it starts at $2,200.
0:27:08Yeah.
0:27:09I mean, that's a chunk of change.
0:27:11But it's less than half of what a good Mac used to cost you.
0:27:18And it's going to last longer and it's a lot more usable.
0:27:21Anyway, I just really don't understand it.
0:27:25If you didn't see this coming after the iPod shipped without AA batteries, I don't
0:27:30know what to say.
0:27:31It's been like 10 years now.
0:27:34And you do pay a little bit of a premium, but it's not anywhere near as much as it used
0:27:38to be.
0:27:39I forget who priced it out.
0:27:41I think it was Marco's podcast last week, but I'm pretty sure it was Marco and Dan talking
0:27:49about it.
0:27:50Where if you upgrade, if you buy the old 15-inch MacBook Pro, the new old one, the non-retinal
0:28:02And in the build to order upgrade to an SSD and instead of spinning hard drive
0:28:08it it almost it comes out to like more than the price of the MacBook Pro with
0:28:13retina display that has one built in and even if you like go to OWC or one of
0:28:19those places and buy the SSD yourself so you're not paying the Apple premium for
0:28:24it it still comes out about even like it's actually not that much of a premium
0:28:29for it and that's you know obviously I think that they've got these things
0:28:32packed in a way that you know it there really are engineering trade-offs for it
0:28:37that's the other thing that gets me is the people who make this assumption that
0:28:39Apple's doing this out of out of upgrade spite and that it's not about
0:28:44engineering problems I mean I can't prove that it is I can't prove that
0:28:49gluing the I forget what's glued something's glued in there but whatever
0:28:54it is that's glued rather than using screws I think it might be the SSD I
0:28:58I can't prove that that's an engineering thing and that they're solving a real problem and
0:29:03that not having little screw mounts makes it even thinner than it could be.
0:29:08That's what I would bet, that they're solving an engineering problem.
0:29:11I'd bet that too.
0:29:14I mean, why?
0:29:17Why would they bother?
0:29:23Apple thinks about the product.
0:29:26I don't think they'd spent a lot of time thinking about how to screw random people that want
0:29:30to upgrade their SSD.
0:29:31Right.
0:29:32Does it drive – you finish first.
0:29:36You finish first.
0:29:37What was I going to say?
0:29:38Yeah, I think it's a byproduct that people can't mess with these things rather than
0:29:43the – like an intent.
0:29:46Right.
0:29:47And I don't think it's any coincidence that as the devices get thinner and lighter,
0:29:53that's when these tradeoffs are made.
0:29:55Right.
0:29:56It's the air that you can't replace that the RAM is soldered on the motherboard and that
0:30:03it's on a 13-inch MacBook Pro, which still has the traditional form factor.
0:30:07There's still a little screw panel you can take off and get it out.
0:30:10And it's when the MacBook Pro went to this quarter-inch reduction in height that they
0:30:16switched.
0:30:17Right.
0:30:18I mean, I think the reason they have the old new MacBook Pros and this one is this is basically
0:30:25shipping, I don't want to say prototype, but it's the next breed.
0:30:30It's the next generation of stuff. Like when they shipped the Air and it was just this one unique sort of thing.
0:30:36It was a new approach. I think this Retina Mac Book Pro is the same kind of thing.
0:30:42We're going to ship this product. We're going to basically, it's showing the way forward.
0:30:46It's like, this is the way everything's going to go. We're going to ship this one. We're going to eventually bring this
0:30:54sort of aesthetic and approach to the product across the entire line. Let me
0:31:02take a break here and thank our first sponsor. Do you use FantasticAl guy?
0:31:08I do actually. FantasticAl is our first sponsor and
0:31:15the thing that always strikes me about FantasticAl is this in the old days I'm
0:31:20I'm talking way back, like beginning of Mac OS X, I think.
0:31:25But certainly in the Mac OS 9 era, Apple stayed away from making the apps that you use on
0:31:31a daily basis.
0:31:33Mac OS didn't even ship with an email client in the old days.
0:31:35It didn't have a calendar.
0:31:36It didn't even have an address book.
0:31:38And eventually, I think that became untenable and they had to sort of everybody assume that
0:31:42your system is going to come with stuff like that.
0:31:45So the good news was, well, there's a system-wide calendar and address book.
0:31:48The bad news is that meant that third-party address books and calendars really, really
0:31:53– they sort of kind of got wiped out because they sort of – their business model was
0:31:58based on the idea that there's an opportunity there and it was taken away.
0:32:03Well, I think something funny has happened over the years, though, where with some of
0:32:08these apps – and I think iCal is the first and foremost, and I think it's on everybody's
0:32:12hit list – is one of the worst apps Apple makes.
0:32:14It's a huge opportunity for third-party apps because it stinks.
0:32:20I mean, I have never heard anybody and anybody get started in a rant about iCal.
0:32:24I have never heard anybody stand up and defend it and say, "Boy, I really like iCal."
0:32:28Fantastical is a calendar app for the Mac and instead of
0:32:33trying to do the same thing as iCal but with a better interface, it is like a complete rethinking of how
0:32:40you interact with a calendar on your Mac. It's a little thing that lives up in your menu bar and you click it or you have a little
0:32:47you can assign a keyboard shortcut to drop it down.
0:32:51Just a little skinny panel that drops down from your menu bar shows you this month's calendar
0:32:55and it shows you in a little list today, tomorrow, the next day, next three days, three four days of your events.
0:33:03So here's a here's a calendar for the month. Here's your events and
0:33:08And this is the part that gets me, because this is the thing that's the worst about iCal,
0:33:12is when you want to make a new event, you just type in a text field in plain language,
0:33:17and it just parses it. And as it's parsing it, it uses this great interface to sort of show you
0:33:24what it thinks you're typing. So if you just type "Talk show Thursday 1 p.m."
0:33:32knows that the event name is talk show. Thursday it knows is this next Thursday and you type
0:33:38one P and it knows you mean 1 p.m. And you hit return and boom there it is a new event
0:33:43on your calendar. So instead of like the way iCal drives you nuts, it drives me nuts every
0:33:47time where it's like you type the name and then you go over to the field and you pick
0:33:51a month and you go over to the next field and you pick a day and every single thing
0:33:55is like tab to a new field, tab to a new field. Just one field you type in plain text. It
0:34:01It does an amazing job guessing what you're doing.
0:34:05And visually, it's a beautiful app.
0:34:07It is so convenient.
0:34:08So it's great for two things that iCal is totally crap for.
0:34:13One, what's going on?
0:34:14What's on my schedule today, tomorrow, the next few days?
0:34:18Easy obvious interface for it.
0:34:20And for new event creation, you just can't beat it.
0:34:24I would buy it even if it didn't even have a view.
0:34:26I would buy Fantastic Cal just for the text field for creating new events.
0:34:32I think you should have won an ADA and I think it didn't because it's an unconventional app
0:34:38in that it sits in the menu bar rather than having a main window.
0:34:41That's a good point.
0:34:42I do think, and you know what, I think the other reason that I don't think it would win
0:34:46an ADA is the internal politics of it is that it makes iCal look so bad.
0:34:50Right, exactly.
0:34:51No, it's a good point.
0:34:52It's that caliber though, it really is.
0:34:55it's got to give it a GDA. Right. And so there's other ones, you know, I'll just mention like
0:35:00there's busy cow. Right. And I mentioned a competitor while talking about this week sponsor
0:35:05because fantastical if you use busy cow as your ical replacement, fantastic cow integrates
0:35:11great with it. The one good thing about the Apple system is that it's a system provided
0:35:15calendar store like it works with your calendars that you've set up and I count the same way
0:35:19that busy. So if you're a busy cow user, which I am, I don't use ical for anything if I need
0:35:24a big full screen here's a you know take up the whole screen thing i use busycal
0:35:28but fantastic out works great with busycal
0:35:32uh... but i would buy it just for the the the uh...
0:35:36the input
0:35:37such a great app
0:35:38and here's the best thing
0:35:40best thing is they're having i'd been this uh... this is one thing about this
0:35:43doesn't make any sense
0:35:44they're having a back to school promotion now this i don't understand
0:35:47it's it's
0:35:48june my kid just got out of school last week
0:35:50I don't know. Well, they don't know anything about dates those guys. Yeah, I don't know
0:35:56that they're having to think they got the calendar all wrong. But they're having a back
0:36:00to school promotion and it's 50% off. So everybody can get you can buy fantastic Cal for 999.
0:36:07It's regularly 1999. You can get it now for 999. I think you're nuts if you don't have
0:36:12this app. And you don't even have to take my word for it because they have a 14 day
0:36:16free trial.
0:36:17Oh, man, just do it. Yeah, just just honestly, it's worth 10 bucks just to check out like
0:36:24if you have any interest in sort of AI or parsing or anything, just pay the 10 bucks,
0:36:30type a few things into that field and see how good a job it is. It's terrific. Yeah,
0:36:34so you can just Google fantastic. I'll go to the website or you can just go to flex
0:36:38a bit, F-L-E-X-I-B-I-T-S dot com, and check it out. 14-day free trial, $9.99, back-to-school
0:36:46promotion in the middle of June. It's a fantastic app. My thanks to them for sponsoring the
0:36:51show this week. So back to WWDC.
0:36:55Jonathon Leibbrandt Yeah.
0:36:56Dave Asprey I have two more things I want to talk about
0:36:58from WWDC.
0:36:59Jonathon Leibbrandt I got a couple of things too.
0:37:00Dave Asprey All right. Well, one of them is the pull to
0:37:03refresh that they've added to iOS.
0:37:06Jonathon Leibbrandt Yeah.
0:37:07which is something I've been hoping they would do but wondering if they never would
0:37:11right out of pride well two factors there's two factors there one is pride
0:37:18well I would say three actually pride obviousness and patents right so pride is that it was not
0:37:32invented by them. It was invented by Lauren Brikter for his, when, for Tweety, his, you know,
0:37:38which is now – Brilliant. Brilliant app. Which is now dead. But – Right. But well, now it's the
0:37:45official Twitter client. No, it's not the same. It's not, it's not Tweety. But he invented it
0:37:50for Tweety. So Pride would be, well, he invented it, and it was different than anything Apple had
0:37:56come up with. And so maybe they would, their pride would keep them from adopting something that came
0:38:02from a third party. Obviousness is that, and this is the worst argument, and I don't
0:38:09really think even Apple would go for it, is that iOS favors the visual over the implied.
0:38:17And gestures in iOS are almost always for things that there's a visual way to do. So
0:38:24like shortcuts that take gestures, there's usually a button that you could tap to do
0:38:29do it too. But that doesn't really hold water because nobody's saying that they
0:38:33should get rid of the reload button and only have pull to refresh. They should
0:38:38just add it as something else and it doesn't take anything away. Well have you
0:38:42seen what they did do? I haven't, but I don't have it in front of me right now.
0:38:47They did exactly that. They got rid of the refresh button that only got pulled
0:38:51to refresh in mail. I didn't notice that. Yeah, which I find weird. I would have
0:38:55personally I would have kept a button. Yeah, yeah I would have kept the button
0:38:59too. Because I don't think the button was hurting anybody.
0:39:04No.
0:39:06So I'm thinking that most,
0:39:09I'm thinking that their line of thinking is that
0:39:12most people have push email.
0:39:17You don't actually need to refresh your email that much.
0:39:19By default, it'll just come in.
0:39:22So getting rid of the button's not that big a deal.
0:39:25And if you want to pull to refresh, well, you've got it.
0:39:26Right.
0:39:27Because I've said this before, you know, and even now, because on my main phone I still
0:39:32haven't upgraded to the 6 beta, but I, because I've pulled a refresh and how many other apps,
0:39:38third party apps I use that have adopted it, I pulled a refresh in mail every time I'm
0:39:43reading mail on my phone.
0:39:44Every time.
0:39:45I just do it.
0:39:46I can't help but think that that's why they finally broke down and added it, is that they
0:39:49were doing it too.
0:39:51Probably.
0:39:52It's just a good idea.
0:39:54Just makes sense.
0:39:55what they didn't just add it to mail it's actually added to the to the
0:39:58underlying frameworks any table view you can have a pull to refresh now right
0:40:02which is a big deal I think it's sort of a sick officially embraced it's not just
0:40:07that they've added it to an app it's officially embraced yeah it's part of the
0:40:11system now now they did it in a kind of a weird way there's that little
0:40:13animation thing like it looks like a water droplet that you sort of pull
0:40:18apart or like a maybe like a piece of putty that you're stretching and then
0:40:23And you reach a breaking point.
0:40:28And like you said with Cable last week,
0:40:31it triggers when you break the putty,
0:40:35rather than when you let go of the, which is a bit weird.
0:40:38But the other thing I kind of find a bit weird
0:40:43is that Lauren's implementation
0:40:45and pretty much all the other ones
0:40:47have some text telling you what's going to happen.
0:40:49And the Apple one just has this putty.
0:40:49It doesn't say like, "Pull to refresh," or it doesn't say what's going to happen.
0:40:55It's not, you know.
0:40:56Dave: Right.
0:40:57They've actually made it less obvious.
0:40:58Jonathon: Yeah.
0:40:59Yeah.
0:41:00It's not clear what's going to happen when you break that thing.
0:41:02Dave Right.
0:41:03With Lauren's, it was as soon as you pulled the view, you're at the top of the view,
0:41:07and as soon as you pull it down a little bit, it would say like, "Hey, keep going.
0:41:11You can pull to refresh."
0:41:12Jonathon Right.
0:41:14Dave I actually chatted briefly with Lauren about
0:41:18it.
0:41:19I thought – his reaction to it was exactly what I expected, but I just wanted to check
0:41:24to make sure.
0:41:25I wanted to say, "Hey, is it like a thrill?
0:41:28Are you kind of honored or do you feel ripped off?"
0:41:30He's like thrilled.
0:41:31He thinks it's absolutely great that Apple is putting it in the system.
0:41:38But like us, he doesn't think that the new – all you have to do is pull and not let
0:41:44go.
0:41:45He likes his implementation better.
0:41:47Right, so I so this is a good discussion we had last week
0:41:51I don't think you were there but it was a couple of us at a table in Moscone in between sessions. We're talking about
0:41:57Did Apple make that change?
0:42:00So that it happens only when you after only by pulling not by pulling and letting go did they do that out of?
0:42:08Pride like like they've convinced themselves like now we you know, we didn't do it before but now we've come up with a way to
0:42:14Make pull refresh, right?
0:42:16Or is it a patent thing that the patent that Twitter has on pull to refresh?
0:42:21Apple's implementation doesn't violate the letter of it
0:42:25Yeah, who knows combination I don't know I to me and it might just be my general
0:42:33Aversion like repulsed. I'm repulsed by software patents on silly things that I say no
0:42:40It's not the patent thing, but I forget who it was
0:42:42was, I think it was Matthew Panzareno was at the table. And I think he was reading,
0:42:47he pulled up Twitter's patent application on it. And those patents, I mean, I just,
0:42:53I get two sentences into them and I just fall asleep. I'm out. I'm just, it's like,
0:42:57it's like a sedative. It just puts me right out because of the way they're written.
0:43:01But he is reading it and his layman's reading of it was that the patent describes pull down
0:43:07and let go.
0:43:08And that if you-- you know, that Apple's actually on the good--
0:43:10on the-- you know.
0:43:11So if that's actually the case, that they had lawyers who said,
0:43:14you know, you've got to do this, then I feel bad for the engineers who
0:43:18did it.
0:43:19If it's because they think that this is better,
0:43:21and you're out there listening, please, please, please,
0:43:24change it to more closely follow the Tweedy model before iOS 6 finishes.
0:43:29I really think that this is not an improvement.
0:43:32Well, because it's not just mail, right?
0:43:34It's going to be app system-wide.
0:43:35are going to be doing that.
0:43:37So I mean, it could be the patents, but they have a lot of patent fights.
0:43:46I don't think that they intentionally avoid doing what they think is right to avoid it.
0:43:54To avoid a patent.
0:43:55They're constantly having patent fights.
0:43:58One thing that I think is irrelevant is Twitter's promise not to use software patents aggressively,
0:44:09which is admirable.
0:44:10I'm glad they did it.
0:44:11It's certainly better.
0:44:12It's better than nothing.
0:44:13And it's an admirable stance for the company to take, but I think it's irrelevant because
0:44:17there is zero chance that Apple's lawyers give two craps about what Twitter has "promised."
0:44:22Jonathon
0:44:22promised.
0:44:23Adam: Exactly.
0:44:24I mean, I believe them.
0:44:26I think they're – but that doesn't mean anything.
0:44:29It's not legally binding in any way.
0:44:31So –
0:44:32Dave: Exactly.
0:44:33And who's just – if a new CEO comes into Twitter, he doesn't give two craps what
0:44:37the old CEO said.
0:44:38Adam; Right.
0:44:39Well, exactly.
0:44:40I mean, who's to say that Google doesn't buy Twitter and then use all the patents to
0:44:42new Apple?
0:44:43Dave; Exactly.
0:44:44Adam; Whatever.
0:44:45All right.
0:44:46So –
0:44:47Dave; What else do you have?
0:44:50So I got a couple of things I just want to talk about.
0:44:55So you had a bit regarding possible tall screen iPhone.
0:44:59Yes.
0:45:04And you supposed that they would pitch it at WWDC
0:45:06by having the notifications sort of push down the view.
0:45:10And they would encourage developers
0:45:17to make their layout more flexible vertically.
0:45:17Right.
0:45:22So one thing they did add, which nobody's really talked about much, is they've added an auto-layout system to iOS
0:45:25where you can describe the relationship between various controls and how they react to screen size changes.
0:45:35So it's nice now that you can sort of say, "Well, this button should be at the end of this text field with eight pixels in between it."
0:45:45and they should both be clamped to the right hand side of the screen.
0:45:47So that when you change the orientation,
0:45:49all of the controls sort of lay out nicely.
0:45:51Right.
0:45:53It's like a way of saying, these things should be at the bottom,
0:45:55these things should be at the top,
0:45:57and you don't have to define how wide the middle is.
0:45:59Right, yeah, you just describe the relationships between the items and basically where they'd be pegged to.
0:46:07The top, the bottom, the left, or the right, or whatever.
0:46:09So that's in iOS 6 now, and that's like,
0:46:13now.
0:46:14And that's like – it seems like that would be kind of handy for – on a device with
0:46:20a different shaped screen.
0:46:21Right.
0:46:22Or, yeah, or an app that doesn't know the size of the screen.
0:46:26Exactly.
0:46:27Because for – there are a hundred million iPhones out there with this size, the current
0:46:33size screen, the one point – the three to two aspect ratio iPhone screen.
0:46:39So even if it's true that the next iPhone has a wider, taller, however you want to describe
0:46:45it screen, it's not like apps will switch to the new dimension.
0:46:50They're going to have to support both.
0:46:51Right.
0:46:52Exactly.
0:46:53And the auto layout stuff, that's one of those, that's a technology that started on Mac OS
0:46:5810.
0:46:59That's not new.
0:47:00It's new to iOS 6, but it's not new to Cocoa.
0:47:03No, they added it in Lion.
0:47:05Right.
0:47:06know, and it's useful for the Mac, obviously, because Windows,
0:47:09most windows are arbitrarily resizable. Right. Yeah. But it's
0:47:14interesting that they're taking that like a technology designed
0:47:18for arbitrarily sizable windows and bringing it to a device with
0:47:21a fixed size screen. Right. Which, you know, makes me think
0:47:24that at the very least, they're building in a system that will
0:47:29be able to support various size screens at some point in the
0:47:32future. Right. I don't I don't want to play games and be coy
0:47:35with the NDA on session content.
0:47:40But I will say, and I haven't seen it, I didn't see the auto layout sessions, but they're
0:47:44at the top of my queue from the download list from the videos that came out yesterday, or
0:47:49two days ago, actually.
0:47:50But I noted that it wasn't just one, there was at least two.
0:47:53It was like introduction to auto layout on iOS, and then there was an advanced auto layout
0:47:57on iOS.
0:47:58Jonathon
0:47:58Right.
0:47:59Yeah.
0:48:00Actually checked, and it's the auto layout was mentioned in the keynote, so.
0:48:04Yeah.
0:48:05Yeah.
0:48:06Well, and I think that I don't think that the session titles themselves, I mean, and
0:48:09you know, I'm not going to avoid talking about session titles, but I don't think, I think
0:48:14once the schedule came out, you can say what the schedules, you know, what the, you can
0:48:20say what the sessions are.
0:48:21I think the contents are under NDA, but I don't think that the titles of the sessions
0:48:25are NDA.
0:48:26Well, yeah.
0:48:27Yeah, I mean, I don't think anybody's going to raise too much of a stink.
0:48:32Right.
0:48:35So the other thing is kernel-level ASLR, which is address-space layout randomization.
0:48:37So when different libraries get loaded into the kernel, they are placed in different locations in memory.
0:48:46So that if you have an exploit code, you can't rely on a certain function being in a certain location.
0:48:54you can't rely on like a certain function being in a certain place so it
0:48:57makes it harder to exploit the kernel
0:49:00so that has
0:49:01you know that
0:49:02it's a pretty big security step and I'm kinda interested to see how that
0:49:06affects jailbreaking on iOS 6
0:49:08I...I...
0:49:09that's interesting and I really was wondering
0:49:12long-term about that because Mac OS X has had that's another thing that came to
0:49:16the Mac first
0:49:17but I thought I saw and I just I don't follow jailbreaking that closely I
0:49:21I thought I saw that somebody had already issued a jailbreak for iOS 6.
0:49:24Was that a joke or is that not true?
0:49:26I haven't seen, I don't know, I just thought it was an interesting thing to look into.
0:49:31I mean, maybe you can still jailbreak if you get in early enough before this stuff happens,
0:49:36but either way, this is a good security thing.
0:49:39Yeah, it's very good.
0:49:41I've never seen any, it always seems like whenever I see a guy like Charlie Miller,
0:49:50of the absolute top Mac OS at third party security guys out there like what his advice
0:49:57is all I SLR is that right ASLR address space layout random is at the top of his list of
0:50:06things Apple could do to improve iOS right and so they did it which is cool because in
0:50:12other in other words if you find an exploit a buffer overflow where you can inject code
0:50:16you have no idea where it's going to go. Whereas before ASLR, it would go to the same place
0:50:21every time. And you can build a plan from there.
0:50:24Michael Scott Exactly. So this makes it a lot harder at
0:50:27least to exploit a buffer overflow. Next up on my little list here is Facetime
0:50:35over cellular. Which I haven't seen anybody talk about that. That is interesting.
0:50:41That's what's on my list.
0:50:42I don't know why people aren't talking about that.
0:50:44There we go.
0:50:46We've talked about it.
0:50:48Why do you think it's 4S and iPad 3 only?
0:50:56I think it's pretty obvious.
0:50:58I think it's a marketing thing.
0:51:00Yeah.
0:51:01I think it's just to make the Dave-- and there's a complicated matrix of all of iOS 6 features
0:51:08and what device gets what.
0:51:10- Right, I don't really understand what they're doing there,
0:51:13but yeah, I think it's probably a marketing thing.
0:51:16Plus, you know what, it limits the number of devices
0:51:18that can actually do it.
0:51:20Which, you know, I would be really interested
0:51:23to know if the carriers actually knew this was coming.
0:51:26- I do too.
0:51:27- They didn't know iMessage was coming.
0:51:29- Right, and I knew that, I forget,
0:51:31maybe it was 'cause of you. (laughs)
0:51:33I forget, but I knew last year
0:51:35when they announced iMessage,
0:51:36I forget it. I forget who I talked to about that, but I got like it wasn't you it was somebody yet
0:51:41No, it was I now I know who it was. It was it was a good source
0:51:46they didn't know and
0:51:49The carriers didn't know Apple just did it and I can't help but think it's the same here that they're not really giving
0:51:56They're not really it's not really up to the carriers. Although we'll find out we will find out when it ships whether
0:52:03You know like it's a thing like Verizon has it and AT&T doesn't
0:52:07Right, but I mean I would have thought they'd said that yeah
0:52:13I I don't know what I do know is it since day one it's worked over the cell network and we just turned it off
0:52:18Right, you know and the the the counter example would be tethering
0:52:23Which is definitely up to carriers and they can bill you for it
0:52:27but I don't think so because I think the reason is that carrot that that's a
0:52:32that tethering is like a known carrier feature
0:52:37that they sell on other things.
0:52:38And it was probably like, I don't know,
0:52:41that they built, whereas I can't see AT&T
0:52:43adding a new bill to your iPhone
0:52:46so that you can do FaceTime.
0:52:47- Right, it's like, you can almost see
0:52:50their deals with Apple mentioning tethering.
0:52:52And they've got like specific terms around it.
0:52:56But then Apple just goes and invents something new.
0:52:58It wasn't in the contract and the carriers
0:53:00kind of get stiffed.
0:53:01I'm curious to see how bandwidth intensive it is.
0:53:05Yeah.
0:53:06Right?
0:53:07Because you can definitely run up against these, the bandwidth caps, you know, like
0:53:09these, you know, two gigabytes is a lot for email and web surfing.
0:53:13Yeah.
0:53:14I mean, and I know there's somebody out there who listens to the show who's like,
0:53:17all I do is email and web surfing and I run up against the two gigabyte thing every month.
0:53:20Right.
0:53:21I mean, you can do it, but it really takes, I think, streaming video to really kind of
0:53:26rack up against that.
0:53:27Yeah.
0:53:28Well, we'll see, I guess.
0:53:29Marco, do you listen to Marco's show Marco?
0:53:31was at WWDC last weekend was using his iPad 3G or LTE instead of the hotel Wi-Fi and left
0:53:37his Mac tethered overnight and it downloaded the Mad Men season finale, which is like two
0:53:46gigabytes.
0:53:47So, he blew his whole thing downloading it and the download didn't complete.
0:53:52Oh, it didn't even get it.
0:53:54No.
0:53:55What a bastard.
0:53:56That sucks.
0:53:57Well, do you have anything else?
0:54:00I have one.
0:54:01I'll bet it's on your list.
0:54:02Probably.
0:54:03Passbook.
0:54:04It is on my list.
0:54:07So I think that's kind of the sleeper hit.
0:54:09Right.
0:54:10You know?
0:54:10It's funny, like, when you launch the app now,
0:54:19there's nothing in it.
0:54:21There's one screen, and it just says,
0:54:22Passbook is for the stuff in your pocket.
0:54:24And it's got, like, tickets and all that kind of stuff.
0:54:29But there's a big infrastructure behind it.
0:54:34And I think tellingly they sort of,
0:54:38they released a new API that would allow apps
0:54:41to sort of inspect only their own passes.
0:54:44And there's a bunch of backend stuff
0:54:49so that you can send out passes, create new ones,
0:54:51and update the ones that somebody has on their phone.
0:54:55I think it's interesting for iOS 6,
0:54:56but I think it's going to be really big in iOS 7.
0:54:58Yeah.
0:54:59It's, it's, I totally agree.
0:55:01I really think that it's, and I've, sometimes I'm wrong about these things.
0:55:05Like when I think that this is a sleeper hit or like I call it like an iceberg feature
0:55:09where you only see this little bit at the top but the implications underneath are huge.
0:55:16But I really do think it, I think Passbook is going to be a big deal and I think long
0:55:20term it's going to be on an awful lot of iPhone users' first screen.
0:55:24Right.
0:55:25Because one of them is… one of the things is that I really… I just keep thinking about
0:55:30that. I really think Forstall was exactly right in his pitch in the keynote that half
0:55:36the problem with these apps that do the barcode scanning now is that you're never going
0:55:40to have them on your first or second screen. You know, like you're united, you know.
0:55:44Because I mean… and some people fly the same airline every time. And I, you know,
0:55:48I fly the same handful of airlines. But it's like, you know, who knows if you're, you
0:55:51know, Continental Airlines app. Where the hell is it? I don't know.
0:55:55And it's the worst thing is you're up there at the front of the line and you're like paging
0:55:59up to screen eight of your home screen looking for the thing.
0:56:04Because they do some really clever…
0:56:06I don't even know how much is…
0:56:09I guess we can talk about it.
0:56:10But they're doing some clever stuff though with Passbook where based on your location,
0:56:13it'll know… like… right?
0:56:17It's like you open Passbook when you're in a Starbucks, it knows you're in a Starbucks
0:56:22or it guesses you're in a Starbucks at the very least,
0:56:25and there's your Starbucks.
0:56:26You don't even have to-- so not only do you not have to look
0:56:28around for a Starbucks app, when you open Passbook,
0:56:31if it knows you're in a Starbucks,
0:56:32you don't even have to look for your Starbucks pass.
0:56:35You don't even need to open Passbook.
0:56:36It's on your home screen.
0:56:37Oh, right.
0:56:38Right.
0:56:38Exactly.
0:56:39Right.
0:56:40You turn the thing on, and it's there like in a notification.
0:56:43You're in Starbucks.
0:56:43You swipe it.
0:56:44Up comes your Starbucks card.
0:56:46Like, it doesn't even launch the app.
0:56:47It just comes up over the home screen,
0:56:49and you can just scan it right there.
0:56:51Right.
0:56:52One of the interesting things about Passbook is that it can work in coordination with an
0:56:57app.
0:56:58Yes.
0:56:59And do other things, and you can use the app to do things like make changes, like the example
0:57:06that they gave would be like if it was an airline, then you wanted to change your seat.
0:57:11You'd need an app for that, like a Passbook.
0:57:14What do they call them?
0:57:16Are they cards or are they passes?
0:57:18Passes.
0:57:19A pass itself doesn't have code.
0:57:20It's just information.
0:57:21So if you want to change stuff, you've got to have an app.
0:57:24But for a lot of cases, you don't even need an app.
0:57:27There are a lot of situations where developers or stores or services can support Passbook
0:57:37and it takes some server code on their side, obviously, to do the interaction.
0:57:42But in terms of what's running on the phone, all they have to do is support Passbook and
0:57:45it doesn't even require an app.
0:57:48I really think that it's interesting and it's a very humble way to get started with this,
0:57:57where it's not like this boil the ocean approach that I think Google has taken with Google
0:58:01Wallet where it's like, "We're going to support this NFC stuff," and it, in theory, works
0:58:08everywhere and in practice works nowhere or almost nowhere.
0:58:11Well, I think it's an approach where they're not relying on the endpoint to have any specific technology.
0:58:16Right?
0:58:25Right.
0:58:25They're just going to support what people already do and build out from there.
0:58:25So one interesting thing is, let's say you've got your Starbucks card.
0:58:30You could probably, or Apple could probably work out a way that they could charge up your Starbucks card from your iPhone.
0:58:37probably work out a way that they could charge up your Starbucks card from your iTunes account.
0:58:43I thought about that too. The only thing about that is that when any of your money goes through
0:58:48your iTunes account, Apple takes 30 percent. So I don't see how that would work.
0:58:53Well I mean, they could work out a deal with Starbucks and they take less than 30 percent.
0:58:57Right. Like maybe for the Passbook stuff they'll do it in a way that... and I almost feel like
0:59:03they have to if they're and i think long term everybody you know there have been rumors about
0:59:07apple getting into nfc and payments and stuff like that uh that there's for as much as they've stuck
0:59:14to their guns across the board music video apps books with this 70 30 70 30 in-app purchases 70 30
0:59:25everything when money goes through the store it's 70 30. maybe the way that they do it is that they
0:59:30They don't really it's not called going through the store right like all this stuff that goes through the store is 70/30
0:59:36But the payment processing is is not that it's just hooked up to your account
0:59:41So it goes through the same credit card. You've got hooked up
0:59:43But you know they would I I they could really you know they could undercut everybody on that
0:59:50I mean they could just charge what it you know just a break-even thing and just have it as a reason to have an iPhone
0:59:55right I think there's
0:59:58They've got a lot of credit cards
1:00:00All right, and then they can do stuff too. They could even do it
1:00:02You could do it wouldn't even just be charging up your Starbucks card. You could do it like
1:00:06you know if you're with the airline thing where you've got a coach seat and you
1:00:11Go to your thing and you could maybe get a notification that there's an upgrade available
1:00:15You know the business class or first class or something like that and you just do it in the app and it goes through your
1:00:22iTunes store thing you don't even have to sit there and fuddle around with credit cards or something like that. Yeah. Yeah, exactly
1:00:29Like I think they've got a good pitch for businesses, which is there's less friction. All right
1:00:33Or you could you know, you could even buy, you know, like when you have to buy
1:00:38Your drink or a sandwich on the on the flight, you know, you could just do it through the phone
1:00:43I mean and again you may not even have to take your phone out of your pocket to have it scanned
1:00:46Right. I think that I think the implications of passbook are huge. Yeah, I think so, too and it's a really clever system
1:00:54I mean, I guess we can't get into the details of how it works because that's clearly NDA
1:00:58but it's really, really clever. And so anybody out there who does, if you've got an account
1:01:03and you're thinking about what WWDC sessions to watch, I would highly recommend the Passbook
1:01:09sessions because they're really interesting. And I thought they were, you know, all the sessions
1:01:15at WWDC are good, but I thought those were really exceptionally well-structured from like a
1:01:21pedagogical standpoint. Like, it just opens your mind to how it works. And it's a really clever
1:01:27system. It's very satisfying.
1:01:30Adam Boffa - Yeah. So I'm not sure it'll be huge for IO6, but I think they're going to
1:01:35start making a lot of deals around this and we'll see what happens.
1:01:37Jared Polin - What else do you have? Do you have anything else from WWDC?
1:01:41Adam Boffa - Not really. I think that's it. There's new maps. Whatever.
1:01:45Jared Polin - I don't know what to make about that. I know people are saying that there's
1:01:50there's not as much detail on the maps. I think the lack of transit stuff, you know,
1:01:58I linked to a thing this week from somebody saying that, you know what, that's actually
1:02:01a good idea because the transit stuff is all over the map, no pun intended. But like in
1:02:10Europe, there's some places where the transit information is owned by private companies
1:02:14And they don't want Google having it for free, and they're blocking them.
1:02:20But on the other hand, I wrote a very brief piece, a little link thing, early this morning.
1:02:26Bottom line, though, is from users, users don't care about that stuff.
1:02:28All users are going to know is that if they used to rely on the transit info in the Maps
1:02:32app and it's gone, that's a downgrade.
1:02:35So I mean, I've got to say that's points off for iOS 6.
1:02:39I mean, I don't care.
1:02:41Maybe long term it does work out better, but in the short term people are going to notice
1:02:45and it's never a good thing.
1:02:47Well, I think the question is would you rather have flyover or know what bus line to take?
1:02:53Right.
1:02:54Flyover is really cool.
1:02:56I also think flyover is, I like it way better than street view, than Google street view.
1:03:01And I guess the argument for street view is that it's cool, but it's not as useful.
1:03:06Street view have literally used to like, I know this building here, this restaurant,
1:03:10And I know they've got their phone number on the window.
1:03:15And I've literally used Street View to go and find it.
1:03:18I guess that's the argument, is that Street View
1:03:21is from the perspective of you on the sidewalk.
1:03:23Right.
1:03:26It's like, I've walked down that street.
1:03:26I know where that thing is, and I'm trying to remember,
1:03:28and I can go and see it.
1:03:30Flyover's incredibly cool technology, though, I've got to say.
1:03:37Let me take it to … Before we talk about the rest of this stuff, this is a good time
1:03:40to do the second sponsor.
1:03:41And our second sponsor is a new app for the iPad called VJ, spelled V-J-A-Y from Algorithm.
1:03:52You may know them from their other app, DJ, which was like a record-spinning app for the
1:03:58iPad, very, very acclaimed.
1:04:01Have you ever seen videos of people using an iPad or multiple iPads to sort of do, I
1:04:08don't know what you call it, what DJs do.
1:04:13I'm sort of out of my league here because I'm not very musical.
1:04:15Are you a musical guy?
1:04:18I – no.
1:04:19No.
1:04:20Well, it's a very cool app.
1:04:21I am.
1:04:22I mean, I like music.
1:04:23I listen to a lot of music.
1:04:24It's called – yeah.
1:04:25Here's what it is.
1:04:27is real-time touch scratching for videos. You mix videos and songs together and
1:04:34you can make mashups, you can make home videos, you can do it to entertain people,
1:04:39but it's more than just clips edited together. It's a performance, right?
1:04:44It's like being a DJ and mixing music live except with music and video. So it's
1:04:50not just a video, it's not a video editor per se. It's a way to blend two videos
1:04:55together with music live, like a performance.
1:04:59Like you sit there and play with it.
1:05:02And you can record them.
1:05:03You can output them over HDMI and AirPlay
1:05:06with real-time output right over AirPlay.
1:05:08So like somebody who is entertaining
1:05:10a crowd, like an actual DJ or VJ, like at a party,
1:05:15you would have this iPad app in front of them
1:05:17and could sit here and blend these things
1:05:18and have it projected on a big screen behind them.
1:05:21It's super impressive and from a user interface perspective,
1:05:25it is everything is live, there's no latency.
1:05:28It's super smooth. It works on the iPad two and the new iPad,
1:05:33parentheses three. Did you play with it? I sent you a promo code.
1:05:38I did. I did. It's very impressive. It is super impressive. It is the sort of thing where I,
1:05:43myself, I don't, I can't use it to the way that it could be used, but I guarantee you that with
1:05:48with this app, there will be videos of people making these amazing things and mixing these
1:05:52things and people will be like, "I can't believe it." And it fits right in with this
1:05:58resurgence in argument about whether the iPad is for creation or consumption, which is,
1:06:04to me, I cannot believe that we're still having this argument in 2012. But this app,
1:06:09VJ from Algorithm, is like ground zero, step one of, "My God, this thing can be used
1:06:14for creation. Like in a way, and the best thing about it is it's a perfect example of
1:06:19the sort of creation that you can do on the iPad that you couldn't do on a Mac. Because
1:06:26the whole…
1:06:27Or it's very visceral.
1:06:28And it's multi-touch. It's two things at once. So there's only one mouse on the
1:06:31Mac. You can't spin two things at once. You can't twist two different things at
1:06:35the same time on the Mac, which is the entire point of VJ, that you're tweaking two songs
1:06:41at once or two videos at once at the same time. Really nice UI, skeuomorphic in a very,
1:06:48very appropriate way where it's this, you know, you launch the app and it makes it feel
1:06:54like your iPad is like a dedicated device meant for video mixing. Really, really cool
1:07:00app. Very well done. Regular price, $19.99. Deja vu, right now, 50% off intro pricing.
1:07:10It's only $9.99 on the App Store.
1:07:14You can find out more at algorithm, A-L-G-O-R-I-D-D-I-M.com or you could just Google VJ, V-J-A-Y and
1:07:25look it up there.
1:07:26$9.99 on the App Store, amazingly creative app.
1:07:30Anybody who has any kind of interest in music and stuff like that, go get it.
1:07:34It's a great app, beautiful.
1:07:35So you had some good sponsors this week.
1:07:38Terrific sponsors.
1:07:39I like it. So I'll say this. I was on a phone conversation with the Algorithm guys about DJ.
1:07:47They were having some weird core animation issue. And Michael Simmons, the Flexibits guy, actually introduced me to them.
1:07:53So we had a little bit of a chat trying to work out what was going on. They are really, really smart guys. Very nice. Their apps are amazing.
1:08:06Go buy it. Please.
1:08:07See, that's what I'm talking about, though.
1:08:09Guy English is the guy that you talk to when you're having a core animation problem.
1:08:14That's the guy.
1:08:15Do you probably get calls like this every day, or somebody with an amazing app, but
1:08:19they're running up a thing where they're stuck at 54 frames per second, and they know that
1:08:23that stinks because anything under 60 is kind of janky.
1:08:26And then they call you, and then you tell them what's wrong, and then all of a sudden
1:08:29they're running at 65 frames per second.
1:08:32To be honest, I don't know what I told them helped.
1:08:34Well, I don't know.
1:08:37We chatted about what was going on.
1:08:39I don't want to take any credit.
1:08:40I don't know if I actually did help them, but we chatted, and they're very, very smart
1:08:44guys.
1:08:45All right.
1:08:46Very smart guys.
1:08:48Great sponsors.
1:08:49Thank you both.
1:08:50So the other big news of the week is from Microsoft.
1:08:55You and I sort of—what were we doing?
1:09:00We weren't watching it because they didn't do the video live.
1:09:02we were following the live blog coverage live and then chatting to each other on the back
1:09:08channel.
1:09:09And, well, let me just tell you this.
1:09:12Here's the thing I was thinking.
1:09:13This is me yesterday.
1:09:14It was yesterday.
1:09:15Here's what I was thinking.
1:09:16I got nervous about having you on the show.
1:09:19Because one thing everybody always wants, people say, "Get somebody on the show who's
1:09:22going to fight back and tell you what the hell's wrong with you."
1:09:27And that's why I thought, "All right, I'm going to do it.
1:09:28I'm going to get Guy.
1:09:29Guy's not going to let me slide.
1:09:32And this is what I'm thinking.
1:09:33I'm thinking, Guy, I mean, I haven't written anything good
1:09:36in weeks.
1:09:37And Guy's going to call me out on that.
1:09:39He's going to say, what are you doing?
1:09:40You haven't written a--
1:09:41so I thought, I got to write something good.
1:09:44I got to write something so that Guy can't tell me
1:09:46that I've been slacking off.
1:09:47And so here's what I did.
1:09:48I went back to where I am, and I stole all of your ideas,
1:09:52all of your comments from the surface event,
1:09:55and then turned them into a little article for Darren
1:09:57Fireball.
1:09:58- Well, that's a really great article.
1:10:00I don't know my ideas.
1:10:02I mean, whatever.
1:10:03I'm not particularly,
1:10:05I don't get jealous about where ideas come from.
1:10:06Like, I wouldn't,
1:10:08like he said that to me on Twitter,
1:10:09and I'm like, I didn't realize it was me,
1:10:11and I thought it was more of us just chatting.
1:10:13- I didn't, you know, I'll give you credit.
1:10:14I stole the fact that they couldn't,
1:10:17they clearly couldn't make enough decisions.
1:10:20That was from you.
1:10:21- Oh, well, thank you.
1:10:23Yeah, no, I think they,
1:10:27I think they made good decisions,
1:10:29but they didn't make great decisions.
1:10:31Both of those products are interesting by themselves.
1:10:35One less so.
1:10:36The Intel one looks kind of garbage to me, personally.
1:10:39But I could see that being a product
1:10:41that they would want to ship.
1:10:43To do both of them is crazy.
1:10:46I don't understand what the hell they're thinking.
1:10:48Well, why announce both of them at the same time?
1:10:52Why not just announce the ARM one and make it all about that?
1:10:56Here's the argument is that they've announced an arm-based tablet and an Intel-based tablet
1:11:06that's thicker.
1:11:07So it's sort of like the arm-based one is vaguely, you know, roughly equivalent to like
1:11:10an iPad and the Intel-based one is roughly equivalent to like a MacBook Air but with
1:11:16a touchscreen.
1:11:17And then they also introduced this very clever capacitive, I guess, smart cover, magnetically
1:11:24attached but that has a keyboard on it and very the part that's super clever
1:11:30about it isn't just that the idea of hey why not you know why not have the
1:11:33underside of the cover be a keyboard and it attaches magnetically like Apple
1:11:39smart covers but the thing that's really clever is that it draws power over that
1:11:42magnetic connection so that the keyboard cover doesn't itself need a battery so
1:11:46like if you were gonna make I'm sure after they did that there's probably
1:11:50going to be like 20 Kickstarter campaigns this week for people to make something like
1:11:55that for the iPad. But if you did it for the iPad, it would have to be a Bluetooth thing,
1:11:59and that means that it would draw – it would need like a battery. And I don't know that
1:12:02it could even be as thin as the Microsoft one. But then, like 20 minutes later in the
1:12:07event, then they come out with another cover that has a keyboard that actually has physical
1:12:11moving keys.
1:12:12I don't get it.
1:12:15So in other words, the message – instead of the message being, "Here it is. We're
1:12:19our own tablet. Boom! This is it. And we've got this amazing cover. Here it is.
1:12:26They've got this mixed up story of here's a tablet and its arm and it's
1:12:32thinner and lighter and cooler and here's this other keyboard. Oh, but here's
1:12:37this other tablet that looks the same from the front and then you turn it
1:12:40sideways and it's real thick and it has vents but it runs Photoshop and anything
1:12:46from Windows. So you know, it's it is a reasonable, it's not a crazy trade off,
1:12:50there's actually reasons somebody might want to do it. Oh, and here's this other
1:12:53keyboard cover. And they're not, we don't know when they're shipping and what the
1:12:57prices are, and the other one is going to ship at least three months after the
1:13:00other one that we don't know when it's going to ship. And to me the whole thing
1:13:03just sort of falls apart at that point. Yeah, well I mean, I think the thing is
1:13:07that they're chasing customer affection rather than sort of selling them a
1:13:15product. Do you know what I mean? They're nervous. They don't know which one to do.
1:13:20I think one group probably came up with the arm one and then somebody upstairs was like,
1:13:25"No, well, we got to have this Intel one." And they just did both. And I don't think they...
1:13:29One thing that struck me about the event was that this is an idea that you didn't steal. So
1:13:37I get to sound smart.
1:13:39They didn't sell their choices that they made.
1:13:46And they specifically called out
1:13:50how hard it was to make choices.
1:13:53- Right. - Which I found interesting.
1:13:56Like, I think that's just the wrong thing to do.
1:14:00Like, basically, you make your choices,
1:14:01you come up with your product, and then you sell it.
1:14:03This is it, we believe it.
1:14:05And what they specifically called out in the event
1:14:08is like, man, we had a lot of hard choices to make,
1:14:10but we think these are great.
1:14:12And yet you've got a spectrum of stuff,
1:14:14which clearly means that you don't,
1:14:16you didn't put all the wood behind one arrow.
1:14:18You didn't pick something to be great.
1:14:20- Perfect turn of phrase, right.
1:14:24They didn't put all their wood behind one arrow.
1:14:26- Which I think is a shame
1:14:28'cause the arm one is interesting.
1:14:30- Or if they did, maybe from their perspective they did
1:14:35that they're thinking of it from the perspective of we're going to start making PC hardware
1:14:41in general, which is a tremendous fundamental shift for the company.
1:14:44And I know people have said regarding my article, it's not that Microsoft has never gotten into
1:14:49hardware before.
1:14:50They've made the Xbox, they've made all sorts of peripherals before, they made the Zunes.
1:14:55But yeah, so they've made hardware before, but the one, it's almost like a religious
1:14:59line that they've never crossed is they've never made PC hardware before.
1:15:03Right. That's I mean, the Zune is one thing where you enter the hardware market where
1:15:10your partners are, right, you know, but that's not their key market, right?
1:15:15This is the bread and butter. The foundation of the entire Microsoft empire is this notion
1:15:20of we make a PC operating system and apps for that operating system office, primarily
1:15:28from a financial standpoint, but you know, all sorts of other stuff. They make the airplane
1:15:32And you guys, Dell, HP, Sony, Toshiba, Samsung, you guys make the hardware.
1:15:45You guys make the hardware, we do the software.
1:15:47And it's very crisp in the PC industry and that, you know, that's where all of the money
1:15:53has come from.
1:15:54And now they've…
1:15:55So I think from their perspective that they've put all their wood behind the arrow of, "Okay,
1:15:58now we're making hardware too."
1:16:01from the messaging standpoint, that's interesting to Microsoft.
1:16:04I mean, it is very interesting to Microsoft.
1:16:07But from a consumer standpoint, they don't really care.
1:16:11People just want to buy a nice machine and have it work.
1:16:14Yeah, it's not product focused.
1:16:15It's more corporate focused.
1:16:19So what I think was lacking from the event
1:16:22was a story, a narrative, about why you'd want this
1:16:27and what you would do with it.
1:16:30And because they didn't have a story at all, it means that they didn't even come…
1:16:35First, you need the story.
1:16:37And then you've got to figure out a way in that story to differentiate between the
1:16:40two devices, the Intel one and the ARM one.
1:16:43But because they didn't have a story period, it's a real, I think, mismatch messaging-wise
1:16:50of why there's two of them and what the differences are.
1:16:53Well, I mean, they should have given the whole event to that Panos guy.
1:16:56Yeah, I thought so too.
1:16:58I thought he was the only guy who was comfortable.
1:16:59And I realized that what he was talking about was a little bit self-referential, where he
1:17:05was talking about the design and the design process.
1:17:09But his enthusiasm was genuine, and he actually was the only guy who seemed comfortable up
1:17:12there.
1:17:13Yeah.
1:17:14I cracked a joke on Twitter during the event.
1:17:17I cracked a couple jokes.
1:17:18But one of the jokes – number one, though, I just want to say, even though I cracked
1:17:21jokes, that doesn't mean I don't like the thing.
1:17:23I'm, color me very intrigued by the whole thing.
1:17:25And I think the same thing is true for you, too, right?
1:17:27Yeah, very much so.
1:17:28I mean, I think this thing could be…
1:17:30I think this is the whole…
1:17:33The thing I'm skeptical about is Windows 8 on regular PCs.
1:17:37I think Metro on regular PCs, from what I've seen and played with it, I think it's wrong.
1:17:44I think Metro on a touchscreen device is really, really interesting, and especially on a bigger
1:17:51one, one that's bigger than a phone.
1:17:53Like in some sense, I do think that iOS is a little bit like a phone OS that runs on
1:17:58a tablet, whereas I think that the Metro user interface really feels… seems like it's
1:18:04natural for like a nine-inch tablet, ten-inch tablet.
1:18:07Color me very interested.
1:18:08But, you know, so the jokes are just me, you know, cracking jokes.
1:18:12But my joke… one of my jokes was that the… because the Intel one…
1:18:16I'm with you.
1:18:17The Intel one to me seems janky because it's thick and has vents and has a fan.
1:18:21It's a…
1:18:22magnetic pen. I honestly I'm a I'm a fan of the pen input idea. I think it's a
1:18:30great idea. magnetizing it to you thing. No, don't do that. Right. That's wrong.
1:18:35The all of the differences between their arm one and the Intel one to me are
1:18:40advertisements for the arm one. Yes. So I cracked the joke that the maybe I'll get
1:18:47the deep the things wrong but I said it's it's thicker and it has a fan and
1:18:51it has a cassette tape deck. Because it just seems like it's, you know, it's, it's old
1:18:57technology, you know, it's, it's, and it's a lot to me, it's also a lot like the tablet
1:19:04PCs that Microsoft's been trying to sell for for 15 years. Right, right. You know what,
1:19:09you know, they should have done just occurred to me. You're right. It's all it's older tech,
1:19:12but they should have done is introducing the Intel one first. Hmm. Yeah, we got here's
1:19:18Here's what we got.
1:19:18You know, it's got the old windows.
1:19:20It's got all support.
1:19:21It's a very comfortable.
1:19:22It's like a MacBook Air with a touch screen.
1:19:24It's got the clickety clickety keyboard.
1:19:26Great.
1:19:27How do you like that?
1:19:28Nice. Pretty excited.
1:19:28Guess what?
1:19:30Here's an ARM one.
1:19:30Pure Metro.
1:19:32Very fancy.
1:19:33Like it's got a fancier keyboard.
1:19:34They did them in the wrong order.
1:19:37They really did.
1:19:38- Think about the order that Apple did
1:19:39the 15 inch MacBook Pros last week.
1:19:42- Right.
1:19:42- First, the old one that's not exciting.
1:19:45I mean, and I say not exciting.
1:19:48It actually is. The new old 15-inch MacBook Pros are actually very nice upgrades.
1:19:53I mean, it's like cutting-edge Intel chipsets. It's a really nice performance upgrade.
1:19:58But they did those first.
1:19:59Right. But I mean, still, we're all calling them the new old ones.
1:20:03Right. Yeah, you're exactly right. Think about the way Apple did the MacBook Pros. I completely
1:20:07agree. Do the one that's older tech first and do the skating to where the puck is going
1:20:13next, which is ARM, which is thinner, which is no vent, no fan, no need for that, runs
1:20:19cool, no legacy apps. Yeah, yeah, they totally did them in the wrong order.
1:20:26Well, and I think that's telling because I think that they think they probably did them
1:20:30in the right order, where the one that can't run the desktop windows is the lesser product
1:20:35of them. So their big reveal was like, guess what, you can run desktop stuff on this. And
1:20:42think that is, you know, telling about the company.
1:20:50I'm also curious about the timing of the event.
1:20:53And like, I'd, you know, who you'll never know, because, you know, if you're going to
1:20:57pre-announce something, it, when is the right time to pre-announce it?
1:21:01And you know, I've, you know, Apple pre-announces almost nothing.
1:21:06They tend to announce stuff when it's ready or like ready next week.
1:21:12But for example, they pre-announced the iPhone by six months.
1:21:15And I think there's a couple of…
1:21:16That's a special reason though.
1:21:17Right.
1:21:18Because they weren't cannibalizing their own sales.
1:21:20Right.
1:21:21And they had to start doing federal…
1:21:23FCC stuff.
1:21:24FCC stuff that it was going to leak anyway.
1:21:26So this was a way to control the reveal.
1:21:30But the big thing is they weren't cannibalizing their own sales.
1:21:33And so Microsoft is in a very similar position with this, where it's really…
1:21:37I don't think it's going to stop sales of existing Windows notebooks and PCs, but it
1:21:45might maybe a little for some buyers slow sales of iPads or make people wait a little
1:21:51bit.
1:21:52You know what I mean?
1:21:53Maybe.
1:21:54If it works, if it catches on and the idea of we should wait for the surface at least
1:22:00to see it, if there's any merit to it, it's only going to hurt Apple and/or Android tablet
1:22:06makers.
1:22:07anybody who's already using Windows.
1:22:09Yeah. Right? I don't think that they risk cannibalizing anything of their own.
1:22:12I don't think they thought it through that much, though. I mean, you're
1:22:15presupposing that they've got a plan. But I also think,
1:22:19well, I think it's a lot about the fact that at some point, once they get this
1:22:23thing, the wheel's running on this thing production-wise, they can't keep it secret.
1:22:27Maybe. But I mean, those, I mean, those things seem
1:22:31to barely work, right? Like, the journalists didn't get to play with the keyboards.
1:22:35everything was all screwed up and one of them froze on stage. That's just bad.
1:22:41And like it was the worst thing about it is that he didn't even handle it well.
1:22:45No. It's not you know stuff went wrong for Steve at times but you know he
1:22:51laughed or he handled it well. Right. Sort of like Johnny Carson with a bomb
1:22:55joke. Right. Yeah you just got a roll with it. This was like excuse me give me a
1:22:59minute, ambles over to like the spare one. Okay, we're back.
1:23:04He almost the way he ambled over there, it this was Steven
1:23:08Sinofsky, it almost looked as though he was just gonna run off
1:23:11the stage and not come back. Like he was just
1:23:14he was I would have I would have just left. They've just thrown
1:23:17the thing on the ground and just left. But so so everything we
1:23:23know about this event is it was very last minute, right? They
1:23:25I think invites went out during the week of WWDC.
1:23:30People didn't know where to go once they got to LA.
1:23:35It seems to me that, I don't know, I have no idea,
1:23:40but apparently Google is going to be announcing
1:23:45a Nexus tablet next week at I/O.
1:23:50And it seems to me that maybe Microsoft knows that,
1:23:53that finally figured it out.
1:23:58And that they want to frame any IO announcements
1:24:00through the lens that they've just presented hastily.
1:24:05Because you know, maybe not in the tech press necessarily,
1:24:13but in the mainstream press, you know that
1:24:17whatever's announced at IO is going to be related
1:24:20what Microsoft has just said.
1:24:22Yeah, I think so too.
1:24:25And in terms of being arranged at the last minute, it does seem like the invitations
1:24:29and et cetera, at least the invitations went out after the WWDC keynote.
1:24:36And so I can only guess that they were like, "Let's see if Apple announces anything relevant,"
1:24:42which they didn't.
1:24:44But I think that there's… and who knows, maybe Microsoft has better intel than we do
1:24:49do that maybe they even know more about what Google's going to announce. But the consensus
1:24:53is certainly that Google's going to announce something that's pretty much along the same
1:24:56lines, a Google-branded tablet. And I think they wanted to get in front of that.
1:25:04Steve: Yeah. I mean, is any press about the Google tablet is going to be pressed for them
1:25:07too? It's what Google did with the 3D maps or tried to do. I mean, personally, I don't
1:25:13think it's a great move. Dave: Right. I think it looks defensive.
1:25:17Exactly. But it is, it's a common thing. Google just did it with the maps.
1:25:21I guess we're running short on time here, but we have a few more things I wanted to talk to you about.
1:25:28Stuff that you're working on. You run a conference in Montreal.
1:25:33Started last year. Singleton.
1:25:35Yeah.
1:25:36The Indy Mac, or Indy, I say Mac, but Indy Apple Developer Conference.
1:25:40Right. With Luke Fentel, Scott Morrison, and a lot of help from Petra Mueller.
1:25:46Mueller. Yeah, it was fantastic. I was there last year and it was a terrific time. People
1:25:52are, I think, much… Did you get a lot of people asking at WWDC about Singleton 2?
1:25:57Oh, yeah. Yeah. Everybody's asking when it's going on sale and what's going on.
1:26:00Right. It's going to be… I think it's going to be a WWDC situation now where it's
1:26:04like you're going to put it on sale and the damn thing is going to sell out.
1:26:07Yeah. I mean, that happened last year. Like, I had to ask you not to actually mention it
1:26:11on Derek Fryball last year because it went pretty quick then.
1:26:16It is rare.
1:26:17It is actually very rare that people ask me not to link to something.
1:26:20Hey, I'm going to put this thing on sale.
1:26:24Don't link to it on Daring Fireball, because I think that the people who read your site
1:26:28are really going to jump all over it.
1:26:30What are you going to do?
1:26:32Are you going to have a bigger venue?
1:26:34Michael has a bigger venue.
1:26:35Yeah.
1:26:36It's a little bit bigger.
1:26:37It's about 120 people compared to the 75, 80 that we had last time.
1:26:40It's a very small crowd, but I think a small crowd is good.
1:26:46The value is, I think the speaker is being a lot of value, but I think in a way the greater
1:26:52value is having a small crowd, meeting everybody, and talking about what the speakers had to
1:26:57say.
1:26:58Dave Asprey I'm always interested too, like sometimes
1:27:05when people talk to me about Daring Fireball sponsorships or the talk show sponsorships,
1:27:11and they'll ask, "Well, what kind of results can I expect?"
1:27:13And I often, I don't really know.
1:27:15I mean, I don't measure stuff like that.
1:27:17Like, when I have links to your site, it just goes right to you.
1:27:21There's no click tracker.
1:27:22And even if I did have a click tracker, who knows what that means?
1:27:24And who knows whether you can even trust it or whatever,
1:27:27and whether one thing goes-- I always say, the bottom line is,
1:27:31I think the most telling thing is how many repeat sponsors there are.
1:27:35And there's a lot.
1:27:36And that means that they came back and they were happy.
1:27:37And so when I-- you were doing a conference,
1:27:40because I've often thought maybe I should try to put a conference together.
1:27:43The interesting thing to me wasn't whether you did the first one. It was whether you'd want to do a second one
1:27:48Right and you did. Yeah. Well, we had it. It was a big success. We
1:27:53Not financially actually just it breaks even through it's not a this is not a business for us
1:27:59It's just something that we wanted to do
1:28:01We had it like a really great time
1:28:05We had great speakers great turnout and you know, we wanted to do it again. I'm going to amp it up and try it out
1:28:10again
1:28:11Because I think it's actually
1:28:13We're not focused the same way.
1:28:17There's a lot of indie conferences and a lot of really good ones, but we're not really focused on the same kind of thing.
1:28:21We aim to sort of be a more meta level, if you will.
1:28:26Last year was about...
1:28:31We tend to pick themes. Well, there's only been two, but the idea is that we're going to pick themes.
1:28:36And last year was basically...
1:28:41that we were at an inflection point. Like the Mac was clearly going the way of iOS in
1:28:46terms of the Mac App Store, sandboxing, and a lot of indie developers, the way that they
1:28:53run their businesses was going to change. So we thought it would be valuable to get
1:28:58a bunch of people together and sort of discuss that, discuss where things were going and
1:29:03how people were going to adapt to the change and I think that worked well. This year the
1:29:09theme is going to be about growth and scaling and the process behind that.
1:29:14Because I think as smaller developers or basically people in the industry,
1:29:20we're all getting a lot more customers or in your case a lot more readers than
1:29:27we used to say five years ago.
1:29:34And how do we handle that?
1:29:34Like, what does that mean for our businesses and our software and the way that we approach
1:29:41the market and our customers?
1:29:43It's a good theme.
1:29:45I was just talking to some people last week at WWDC.
1:29:48There's definitely some really, really small shops.
1:29:51One man shows, two man partnerships that have more customers than I don't know ever before.
1:30:01I mean, I guess there are websites that could do it.
1:30:04the web sort of enabled that. But with these apps, there's people who have more customers
1:30:07than it's fathomable for a one-person shop to do. And I don't know that—it's a good
1:30:14topic because I just don't know that we're hooked up evolutionarily to deal with that
1:30:18sort of scale at an individual level. Like if you ran a bakery, it doesn't make any sense
1:30:27that you'd have 40,000 customers a week. It just doesn't work. But with apps, it works.
1:30:33you can do it.
1:30:35- Well, yeah, and there's still challenges.
1:30:37Support load goes way up.
1:30:38- Right.
1:30:39- I just, I think it's an interesting topic.
1:30:47I think it's what's happening this year.
1:30:49Last year, I think, was like big change.
1:30:51This year, things are growing.
1:30:53I don't know what it'll be next year,
1:30:54but hopefully I'll identify it,
1:30:56or will identify it and come up with another good thing.
1:30:59- So the other thing that you've got cooking
1:31:01is you've got a new company.
1:31:02- Yeah.
1:31:03and distilled.
1:31:04Yeah, with our good friend, Chris Parrish.
1:31:07Chris Parrish, formerly of Rogue Sheep.
1:31:11You formerly of Rogue Amoeba.
1:31:14We went rogue.
1:31:15Oh, God.
1:31:16It's the sheep jokes.
1:31:17We'll cut that out.
1:31:18Don't worry about it, guys.
1:31:19Yeah, we'll cut that right out.
1:31:23And you guys, you're not ready to announce anything yet, but you guys are working on
1:31:27an app, and it is a Mac app, not an iOS app.
1:31:33And I think that's interesting because I feel like certainly the Mac, you know, Mac sales
1:31:38are up.
1:31:39Mac, it's never been better time to be a Mac developer.
1:31:41But iOS is growth, is so explosive that it dwarfs the growth the Mac has been undergoing.
1:31:50And there's sort of an assumption, I think, that most people, if they're going to start
1:31:54a new thing to do apps, it's going to be iPhone and iPad apps.
1:31:57So I suppose the answer to that question is that we wanted to solve a problem,
1:32:02and the problem existed or was best solved on the Mac.
1:32:11So what the app is, is basically it's called napkin.
1:32:17It's a concise visual communication and it's for marking up images and working with
1:32:21designers and developers remotely.
1:32:25So you can very quickly with a novel input method,
1:32:29make notes on an image and share it.
1:32:31Given that that's the problem we were trying to solve,
1:32:37and it's a problem that I've encountered,
1:32:39like you said, when I was working at Rogue Amoeba,
1:32:41I was working remote, and would often want to send
1:32:44notes back and forth on the work, or the widgets,
1:32:48or the design, and it was difficult.
1:32:51Well, and you and Chris work remote, because Chris is--
1:32:54Chris is in Seattle and I'm here in Montreal.
1:32:56Alright, so you're both in Canada but on different sides of the continent.
1:33:01Exactly, exactly.
1:33:02Different coasts.
1:33:07So you guys probably use it.
1:33:08You guys probably use it, you know, dog fooding it.
1:33:12Yeah, yeah.
1:33:13We use it a lot.
1:33:14And, you know, a couple of other people use it too.
1:33:18Is it retina ready?
1:33:20No.
1:33:21Well, it will be.
1:33:24Easy, right?
1:33:29Well, I mean, we need to 2x the resources, basically.
1:33:32But it's like, we're pretty close to shipping.
1:33:36It's like, we want to ship same time as Mountain Lion.
1:33:39We're going to be Mountain Lion only,
1:33:42and we're going to use all their goodies.
1:33:45But yeah, to answer the question about iOS,
1:33:48this was a problem that primarily existed on the Mac.
1:33:51when a designer is working in Photoshop or a developer is working in Xcode,
1:33:56and you want to quickly share things back and forth.
1:34:00It is an app that is very well suited to the iPad.
1:34:06But the problem we wanted to solve manifests itself mainly on the Mac right now.
1:34:12I think that it fits.
1:34:17I think that that's one of the messages Apple has been trying to reiterate in the last year or so,
1:34:19more or less don't forget about the Mac. I can't believe that, from Apple's
1:34:27perspective, that they can't believe that after six consecutive years of
1:34:31consecutive quarters, 24 consecutive quarters where the Mac has, Mac sales
1:34:36have grown faster than the PC industry at large. 24 consecutive quarters. They
1:34:42still have to remind people like, hey the Mac is awesome and it's, there's
1:34:48there's totally problems that are best solved on the Mac.
1:34:53- Yeah, I think so.
1:34:54I mean, I think there's still a bit of a,
1:34:56like a gold rush mentality around iOS.
1:35:00I, or, you know, Chris and I, I think,
1:35:04would rather figure out a problem to solve
1:35:09and work out the best way to solve it.
1:35:10And in this case, it's on the Mac.
1:35:12- I also think, I do think that there's an opportunity
1:35:15there, too, that a new thing for the Mac
1:35:18be able to gain attention quicker than stuff for the iOS because there's so much less
1:35:24of that gold rush mentality.
1:35:26Yeah, I think so too.
1:35:28Where there's so many thousands of developers releasing iOS stuff that the Mac stuff can
1:35:35gain traction.
1:35:36And I thought that was obvious too.
1:35:39I thought it was clear at the keynote, and it's occurred to me that I was a little bored
1:35:42during the Mountain Lion section because it was almost all old stuff, stuff we already
1:35:46knew. But then somebody pointed out that it was, you know, most of the developers there,
1:35:53they don't even, they don't know anything about Mountain Lion because they're not writing
1:35:56Mac apps. It was all news to them. That's why there was so much applause for like the
1:36:00stuff that was, you know, on Apple's website for months.
1:36:04Yeah, I think Syracuse was saying that on a news show.
1:36:07Yeah, that's exactly, you know what, that's where I got it. I think, you know what, I
1:36:10think he told me that in person last week, too.
1:36:13It could be.
1:36:18But yeah, the Mountain Lion section of the keynote
1:36:21was really kind of boring.
1:36:23I think maybe Power Nap was new.
1:36:25Which is cool.
1:36:27Yeah, it's cool, but I mean, yeah, it puts me to sleep.
1:36:30Yeah, it was Power Nap and dictation.
1:36:31I think were the two new things that were revealed.
1:36:34So it was not the most exciting.
1:36:36No, no, neither was your developer technology.
1:36:39They just work.
1:36:41They do the thing.
1:36:38Oh, and you can tweet in a notification area now.
1:36:41Oh, right.
1:36:42Like nothing groundbreaking.
1:36:44But I think Mountain Lion is the--
1:36:47it's what Lion should have been, basically.
1:36:51It's the polished up version.
1:36:52I think iOS 6 is the same.
1:36:54It's a polished up version of iOS 5.
1:36:58We're not on a major leap year right now.
1:37:01All right.
1:37:03And we've got to wrap this up.
1:37:04But there was a story on Gizmodo today.
1:37:07somebody wrote in the headline, I think, more or less says it all, is that Microsoft is
1:37:10now the most exciting company in tech. And it's typical Gizmodo linkbait, where they're
1:37:17trying to take an obvious contrarian perspective. But I have to say that in broad strokes, I
1:37:24actually agree with that. And later in the article, I forget who wrote it, I'm not going
1:37:29to, who cares, it's Gizmodo. But they, instead of saying exciting, they said innovative,
1:37:33is most innovative. Now there, I think, is more of an argument. I think exciting is the
1:37:38word that actually is more apt, which is that nobody was really expecting the surface thing
1:37:44this week. They kept that secret, and people were thinking the best people thought was
1:37:48maybe like a Barnes and Noble joint, you know, smaller, six-inch type thing that was more
1:37:54like an e-reader. This is way more ambitious than anything people had guessed, and they
1:37:59kept it under really tight wraps.
1:38:02Nobody knew it didn't leak.
1:38:03Whereas everything Apple has announced is more or less as expected.
1:38:08There's stuff like Passbook that is news and wasn't really rumored or expected, but it's
1:38:13not major.
1:38:14It's not exciting.
1:38:17Apple has become, I think, predictable in a very good way, in a way that is good for
1:38:21the company.
1:38:23And I think iOS 6 and Mountain Lion reflect that.
1:38:27I think they're very, very good lists of features year over year.
1:38:31Very impressive 12-month updates to what came before them.
1:38:35But they're not…
1:38:36Exciting is not the word I would use to describe them.
1:38:39Well, I mean, I think Microsoft is interesting in that they're kind of screwed.
1:38:47Apple is less interesting in that they're on top of their game and they're executing
1:38:50well.
1:38:51Right.
1:38:52It's not as exciting to be the guy in the lead.
1:38:54guy who's gonna like the race car driver who's making the exciting moves is the
1:38:57guy who's in second right yeah and they're not just in the lead to look a
1:39:00lap ahead right and you know there's it's not that they're not doing
1:39:05interesting stuff I'm sure there'll be a lot of cool stuff coming out but for the
1:39:12you know for the you know to for the observer Microsoft is offers more drama
1:39:22I'd say.
1:39:23Yeah.
1:39:24Exactly.
1:39:25Yeah.
1:39:26And I think that's good.
1:39:27I think it's actually what they need to do.
1:39:28It makes me optimistic about their prospects.
1:39:32It would make me optimistic, except that their products seem all screwed up.
1:39:35Yeah.
1:39:36So I'm not really sure.
1:39:37But at the very least, I feel like at the very least, though, it shows that they're
1:39:40not in denial.
1:39:41Yes.
1:39:42Right?
1:39:43Yeah.
1:39:44What would be sad would be if they had their head in the sand and were just thumbs in their
1:39:48ears, you know, "Nah, nah, can't hear you," doing the same thing that they have been doing,
1:39:55you know, and just pretending that the industry hasn't totally shifted and that Apple hasn't
1:40:01taken over the penthouse suite.
1:40:02Right.
1:40:03Exactly.
1:40:04I mean, I think one of the…
1:40:06I think my favorite part of that surface post that you put up last night was the analysis
1:40:12of where the money's going.
1:40:14Right.
1:40:15And I think that's telling, and I think you're probably right that they've noticed that,
1:40:19and they're going to have to start cannibalizing their partners to get back to the thicker
1:40:24profit margins.
1:40:25Right.
1:40:26And it's, like I said, I really think when I think about it, it's a classic Microsoft
1:40:29move, where a classic Microsoft move is ballsy and aggressive.
1:40:33And it is.
1:40:34But it's not ballsy and aggressive against Apple, even though it's competitive against
1:40:37Apple.
1:40:38I'm sure they hope it really is.
1:40:39But it's really the ones that they're really, like, punching in the face are their PC OEM
1:40:44Yeah.
1:40:45They're going to take all their money.
1:40:46Yeah.
1:40:47Well, that's the goal.
1:40:48You know?
1:40:49Yeah.
1:40:50Guy, thanks for being here.
1:40:51It's a pleasure.
1:40:52So coming soon, aged and distilled, and we even got a product named Napkin.
1:40:57Looking forward to that.
1:40:59You've got a blog, kickingbear.com.
1:41:02Is it dot com?
1:41:03Yeah.
1:41:04Where you often – well, not often, but occasionally write very, very smart stuff.
1:41:10Thank you.
1:41:12Anything else that I should thank you for?
1:41:14Do I owe you a drink?
1:41:17I'm not sure.
1:41:18I lost track, man.
1:41:20Maybe.
1:41:21Yes.
1:41:22Let's just say yes.
1:41:23You want me to drink?