0:00:00Welcome to Under the Radar,
0:00:01a show about independent iOS app development.
0:00:03I'm Mark O'Arment.
0:00:05- And I'm David Smith.
0:00:06Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes,
0:00:07so let's get started.
0:00:09- So we had an Apple event.
0:00:10- Yay!
0:00:11- And being developers,
0:00:13it's always kind of fun to see this from two sides.
0:00:15Number one, I think many if not most of us
0:00:18are also just big Apple fans.
0:00:20That's why we're here.
0:00:21And so it's always just fun
0:00:23whenever there's new Apple stuff.
0:00:25And hardware is always fun.
0:00:26This is a hardware-focused event.
0:00:28And then also just, it's interesting,
0:00:30from a developer point of view,
0:00:31whether these are developer-focused tools,
0:00:34whether they can help us in that way,
0:00:36and what new development possibilities
0:00:38now have opened up with whatever new hardware features
0:00:42or hardware changes or market changes Apple has made.
0:00:45- Yeah, and I think for each of them,
0:00:47I guess there's three main devices
0:00:49that were announced at this event
0:00:51that were relevant for our discussion.
0:00:53There's the MacBook Air, the Mac Mini, and the iPad Pro.
0:00:56And I think each of them is interesting.
0:00:58If you're a professional Apple developer,
0:01:02there's something in each of those
0:01:04that I think is interesting and worth talking about
0:01:06in very different ways,
0:01:07'cause they're all very different devices.
0:01:09But they very specifically address
0:01:13just different parts of the development life cycle,
0:01:17as well as, in the case of the iPad,
0:01:19expand things out a little.
0:01:20But maybe it's best to just start talking
0:01:22about the MacBook Air.
0:01:24- I mean, the Air in particular,
0:01:25I think is really interesting,
0:01:27because it is an option for developers
0:01:30to use as your computer, whether it's your only computer
0:01:33or whether it's your travel or secondary computer.
0:01:36A lot of developers use small Apple laptops for that role.
0:01:41The big ones, like the MacBook Pro,
0:01:44is very popular among developers as well,
0:01:46usually as a primary device.
0:01:48But I think in the case of the Air,
0:01:51it could be your primary,
0:01:52but you're gonna struggle a bit with screen space.
0:01:55And probably a bit with performance as well.
0:01:57The new Air is, we don't have benchmarks yet,
0:01:59but it is seemingly very similar in performance capacity,
0:02:04just by what processor it has, to the 12-inch MacBook.
0:02:07It's gonna be faster than that,
0:02:09but probably not a lot faster than that.
0:02:11So if you can, so basically,
0:02:14look at the new Air as a developer,
0:02:16look at it the way you would look at the 12-inch MacBook.
0:02:20It's basically a MacBook with more screen space
0:02:24and a bit more performance.
0:02:25So if that has been enough for you,
0:02:28then this might be enough for you too.
0:02:30And you have a lot of experience
0:02:32using the 12-inch MacBook as your secondary computer.
0:02:34What is that like as a developer?
0:02:36- Yeah, I mean, I was gonna say,
0:02:37that has been my sort of secondary computer for a long time.
0:02:42And when the MacBook first came out,
0:02:45I got sort of a top-spec one,
0:02:47and then as soon as the next one was revised,
0:02:49I just got another one,
0:02:51because I really like the, when I'm traveling,
0:02:55it's typically not something that I need max power.
0:02:59It's not a situation that I need.
0:03:02I'm sitting in front right now of an iMac Pro,
0:03:04which is a completely different computer.
0:03:06It is fast and capable,
0:03:10and has huge amounts of RAM and giant screen.
0:03:13It has all of these capabilities
0:03:15that are great for my day-to-day work,
0:03:17like the 80, 90% of the time that I'm working.
0:03:21It's the perfect machine for that, I would say.
0:03:24But when I'm traveling, I could get a,
0:03:29probably the best sort of middle-ground one
0:03:32is maybe a 13-inch MacBook Pro,
0:03:34which is sort of small, but still very capable.
0:03:37That's kind of interesting.
0:03:38But I've really liked working on just a MacBook,
0:03:41both because it's just,
0:03:43I mean, it's sort of almost impossibly small.
0:03:46I think it weighs about two pounds.
0:03:48It's small enough that you forget that it's in your bag,
0:03:51kind of small, which can be disconcerting.
0:03:53Sometimes you're like, "Did I forget it in my hotel room?"
0:03:55No, it's in my bag, I just can't feel it
0:03:57'cause it's so light.
0:03:58It's that kind of small, which is great.
0:04:00So I can take it to places and on trips
0:04:03where I don't want my,
0:04:06I wanna have a Mac with me,
0:04:09which for me is usually I'm bringing it along
0:04:11in case something happens.
0:04:14Or even, it's W3DC, where it's an environment
0:04:18where I'm gonna be working,
0:04:20but I'm not gonna be sitting in Xcode for eight hours a day.
0:04:24It's something that I'm doing,
0:04:26something targeted, focused, and working.
0:04:28And I have found a MacBook to be,
0:04:31sorry, the 12-inch MacBook to be totally fine
0:04:33in that situation.
0:04:35It's limited.
0:04:37You know exactly what you're getting when you go to it.
0:04:39It's sort of smaller and less,
0:04:43I think things take a bit longer,
0:04:44but it's never been problematic for me.
0:04:47It works, you can get work done,
0:04:51I've released builds, I've added features,
0:04:54you can do all of those things from it.
0:04:56And so for me, the MacBook Air is interesting
0:04:58because it's like a slightly beefed up version
0:05:03in many ways of that MacBook that I'm used to,
0:05:05that has two ports, which is very nice,
0:05:08coming from a MacBook which only has one.
0:05:11It's a bit faster and it's a bit cheaper,
0:05:13which is honestly kind of a nice thing too.
0:05:15And the screen is that little bit bigger.
0:05:18It's not dramatically bigger,
0:05:20but it's a little bit bigger,
0:05:21which I think would also be sort of a nice thing.
0:05:26And so at this point, I'm looking at it as
0:05:27there's a good chance one of those will become
0:05:29my travel work machine,
0:05:34because it's the kind of thing that I can,
0:05:36it doesn't feel quite as crazy to update on a regular basis.
0:05:42Rather than my big computers,
0:05:44which I tend to try and update maybe every
0:05:46three or four years, I update these
0:05:48more like every 18 months.
0:05:50And the cost is such that I'd rather do that in many ways
0:05:54and have a small, light, capable computer
0:05:56than go to a MacBook Pro,
0:05:58which is substantially higher cost,
0:06:02fair enough for a bigger performance,
0:06:04but as soon as the benchmarks come out
0:06:06for the MacBook Air and I can get a sense
0:06:08of how it compares to my current MacBook,
0:06:10there's a very good chance it's gonna become
0:06:12my primary travel machine.
0:06:14- Yeah, for that kind of need where it's really
0:06:16like a secondary machine, I've always found that,
0:06:19for any, you know, people often ask me,
0:06:23is Mac whatever, like we know, whatever the new Mac is,
0:06:26is this good enough for development?
0:06:28Or like, will I be able to develop on this?
0:06:30It's a very common question that we get.
0:06:32And the reality is you can develop on pretty much anything,
0:06:37as long as it can run Xcode.
0:06:39Now, there are other factors that matter,
0:06:42but I think they're all kind of secondary.
0:06:43Like, if you're patient and if you aren't developing
0:06:47certain very specialized kinds of apps,
0:06:49you can develop on any Mac that you have
0:06:51that you can get your hands on that can run
0:06:52the latest version of Xcode and the latest OS.
0:06:55That being said, though, screen space
0:06:57is the number one thing that, you know,
0:07:00like a lot of times, so I have a 13-inch MacBook Pro
0:07:03and an iMac Pro, and so this 27-inch beautiful
0:07:07iMac Pro screen, I always want to develop
0:07:10on my iMac Pro if I can help it.
0:07:12Whenever I'm somewhere with my MacBook Pro,
0:07:15I know I can develop with it, but I will usually not do so
0:07:20unless it's, unless like I'm desperate or I'm really bored
0:07:22or I'm on like a five-hour plane ride or something like that
0:07:24where like I just need something like that to do
0:07:27or I need to get a certain thing done really quickly.
0:07:29But for the most part, I find development very unpleasant
0:07:33when I have very limited screen space.
0:07:35If I had the choice between a smaller, faster computer
0:07:41or a bigger-screened, slower one, I would pick
0:07:44the bigger-screened one every time, even if it was slower.
0:07:46Like that's how much screen space matters to me with Xcode.
0:07:49And so it's like anything you can do to get more screen space
0:07:52you will benefit from, but, and I think performance
0:07:56is very much secondary.
0:07:57I mean, if you're doing like a very large compilation
0:08:00or if you are using like a lot of Swift modules
0:08:04that all need to be compiled and Swift is kind of slow,
0:08:06you know, like that might be different for you.
0:08:08But for me, compiling a mostly Objective-C app
0:08:12that isn't too insanely large, I think I'm very, very happy
0:08:16with the performance of almost any modern Mac
0:08:20for basic development work, but what really gets me
0:08:23is screen space.
0:08:24So if you are looking at this as a developer,
0:08:26I would strongly suggest get the biggest screen
0:08:29you're willing to carry and that you can afford,
0:08:31and the rest of the computer is much less important.
0:08:33- Yeah, I mean, I think that's, I don't know exactly
0:08:35at what point we crossed over into the world where
0:08:39it's like pretty much every computer is fast enough.
0:08:42It's like speed is now just one of the,
0:08:45it's that difference between, it's like it's nice
0:08:48when it's faster, like my, you know, things compile quicker
0:08:50on my iMac Pro than they do on my MacBook,
0:08:53but it's not to the point where you can't get the job done,
0:08:56like where it's just painfully slow and you're, you know,
0:08:59you're hitting build and run and then it's like
0:09:01two or three minutes until you can see what you did.
0:09:04Like it's, you know, incremental compilation helps a lot
0:09:08with this, like Xcode is in general very good about,
0:09:10you know, trying to tighten that up and just,
0:09:13they're fast enough.
0:09:14Like there's just not, it's not a big deal,
0:09:16and I think like, I think that you see your summary there,
0:09:18I think is exactly right.
0:09:19It's pick the biggest screen that you're willing to carry.
0:09:24And, you know, obviously if it's a situation
0:09:27where you're using it primarily at a desk,
0:09:29get a giant, if you know, get a 15 inch MacBook Pro
0:09:31if you can afford it.
0:09:32If it's primarily used for travel, then you're just,
0:09:35you know, it's everyone's trade offs there are gonna be,
0:09:37you know, different.
0:09:38For me, I just want small.
0:09:40Like small is what I'm after, and I will put up with it
0:09:43being less screen space than, you know, for that trade off.
0:09:48Though I will say on that score, especially now
0:09:51that the MacBook Air has a retina screen,
0:09:54running these smaller laptops with more,
0:09:57the more space resolution option, for me I find works
0:10:01really well, where you can, you know,
0:10:02essentially it makes everything on the screen
0:10:05visually smaller.
0:10:06You know, my close up vision is good enough
0:10:08that that's fine for me.
0:10:09And so I can kind of, almost, you know,
0:10:11so I can pretend that my teeny screen is a little bit bigger
0:10:14than it is in terms of, you know, the number of things
0:10:16that I can comfortably fit on the screen and so on.
0:10:19So that's just another little thing to keep in mind
0:10:21that it's a big plus that this, you know,
0:10:23this relatively inexpensive laptop is now retina,
0:10:27that it's, you know, it's like it's a substantial increase
0:10:30in terms of the amount of effective real estate
0:10:32that you have on the screen.
0:10:34So the Mac Mini, I guess, is next.
0:10:36Which is an interesting machine, and I think as a developer
0:10:39it comes in, it can fit in so many roles,
0:10:43which I think is like the Mac Mini isn't,
0:10:45it's not amazing at anything, but it's just really good
0:10:48at doing like everything, other than having a screen,
0:10:51I suppose, it's not very good at that.
0:10:53- It isn't very portable, it doesn't have a battery either.
0:10:56- Yes, yeah, that's true.
0:10:58It doesn't do, it has very, very poor battery life.
0:11:01(laughing)
0:11:02But I guess the two things that come to mind for me
0:11:04with the Mac Mini is A, there's the people who use
0:11:07these types of machines for continuous integration.
0:11:10You know, you can use set of Xcode bots,
0:11:12and there's a whole world of stuff that I know nothing about
0:11:14other than the few WWDC sessions I've watched about them.
0:11:18You know, where you can have it so that every time
0:11:19you check in code or make changes, you can have a server,
0:11:24you know, be aware of those, you know, grab the code,
0:11:27run a whole bunch of tests if you have tests.
0:11:30It can do different tests on different simulators
0:11:33and the whole, like, it's a very rich ecosystem
0:11:35that they have there, and Mac Mini is a great tool for that
0:11:39because, you know, it's almost like designed
0:11:41for that type of work where it's just sort of sitting
0:11:43in a corner doing this sort of this faceless work
0:11:48in the background, sort of 24/7.
0:11:50It's just sort of sitting there listening
0:11:51and doing that kind of work for you.
0:11:53So if that's something that you need,
0:11:55it's a great upgrade for that.
0:11:56I mean, these have got really,
0:11:58if you were doing that kind of work
0:12:00on a previous generation Mac Mini,
0:12:02going to one of these seems like it's gonna be
0:12:03a dramatic speed up and improvement.
0:12:06Though, I will say the funny thing about that kind of work
0:12:09is that it's less performance-driven than interactive work
0:12:14because the nature of continuous integration
0:12:16is that it's happening in the background
0:12:18sort of asynchronously, so if your build system
0:12:21takes longer, it's not as big of a deal,
0:12:24but nevertheless, it's still, I think it's a worthwhile
0:12:26update for that kind of use.
0:12:29I mean, even just for the fact that if you have a Mac Mini,
0:12:32there's a very good chance it's very old.
0:12:34And for computers that are on 24/7,
0:12:36they don't last forever, so in that sense,
0:12:38it's quite welcome.
0:12:39But then I think the secondarily, I also think of this
0:12:41as a really interesting developer machine to work with,
0:12:45especially if you already have a big display
0:12:49available to you 'cause the performance for cost
0:12:54for that Mac Mini is pretty good.
0:12:56I mean, you can spec them up a little bit wildly
0:12:58and things can get out of hand, but I mean, for a while,
0:13:02I did all my development on an older generation Mac Mini.
0:13:05That was my home setup, 'cause I had a Mac Mini
0:13:07and it worked fine.
0:13:09And I think it's an interesting thing just to keep
0:13:11and you keep in mind for that situation,
0:13:13where if an iMac Pro or even just the big,
0:13:17the 5K iMac is out of reach for you
0:13:19from a financial perspective, the Mac Mini is,
0:13:23some certainly interesting option.
0:13:24I mean, it's for, only for less than $1,000,
0:13:28you can get a Mac Mini and that's a lot of performance
0:13:31that you can get out of that.
0:13:32So just certainly something to keep in mind
0:13:35if you're very, very cost-conscious and have,
0:13:38so sort of have a monitor available to you,
0:13:40that's a great machine.
0:13:42- Yeah, the only thing I would say is,
0:13:44I would definitely spec it up to,
0:13:47you know, like the base processor is not a great processor,
0:13:51it's made to be a low-power processor and that's fine.
0:13:53If you don't wanna spend the extra 300 bucks
0:13:55on the upgrade processor, the base one is fine.
0:13:58Eight gigs of RAM, again, not ideal for development,
0:14:01but will be fine.
0:14:02The one thing you do want to spec up is the storage.
0:14:05Now if you want to, like, you know,
0:14:06hack around with external things, you probably can.
0:14:09It's a little bit tricky to try to make Mac OS map
0:14:12some of the folders onto external storage and everything.
0:14:14If you just don't wanna deal with that
0:14:15and you just want these storage to work,
0:14:16I would strongly suggest a baseline of 256 gigs of storage.
0:14:21That does bring the price up to $1,000.
0:14:24But, I, again, I strongly recommend,
0:14:26like that's the one thing, like,
0:14:27Xcode development eats up screen space,
0:14:31which you can do what you want here,
0:14:32and it really eats up disk space.
0:14:35Everything else it can be pretty flexible on,
0:14:36but you need disk space.
0:14:38So at least 256, I would say on that.
0:14:40So that does put you up to $1,000,
0:14:42but that's still, you know, if you already have a monitor,
0:14:44that is still considerably cheaper than a similar spec iMac.
0:14:48- Yeah, and I think too on the storage side,
0:14:50it's the, if you're going into it as a developer machine,
0:14:53like you can, development itself,
0:14:58like I think you'd be fine with, you know,
0:15:00a 256 gigabyte drive.
0:15:03Just keep in mind that you're not gonna be,
0:15:05if you're gonna use it for other things,
0:15:07like you're gonna be storing your family pictures on it
0:15:09and so on, like those are the things that I find
0:15:11will just demolish the storage that you have.
0:15:14You know, like Xcode takes up space,
0:15:16like every Xcode, every time I have to download
0:15:18a new Xcode version and it's four gigs
0:15:22and then I have to unzip it and it's another four gigs,
0:15:25like it adds up and it needs a good bit of working space,
0:15:29but it's just something to keep in mind
0:15:30that you can make it work, but just be very thoughtful
0:15:33about what else you put on that if you're getting this
0:15:35for the sort of like the value option.
0:15:38But anyway, it's just, it's a really,
0:15:40I'm very glad that they updated the Mac Mini,
0:15:42like even just from the perspective of like,
0:15:44it's just a, it's a great utility machine
0:15:47and you just never, and like I find that it can fit,
0:15:50solve a lot of problems, sometimes that you don't
0:15:53even know that you have, so it's like,
0:15:54I'm glad that it's there, I think glad that it's
0:15:56relatively inexpensive and I think it's nice
0:15:58that it kinda opens the door a little bit,
0:16:00like the starting point for the Mac is a little bit lower,
0:16:04which, I mean, part of when I was starting out,
0:16:07like I came into iOS development,
0:16:09I mean this is a decade ago, but I came into
0:16:11iOS development not owning a Mac,
0:16:14you know, my background wasn't Mac development at all
0:16:17and so it's nice that they've kind of lowered the,
0:16:20you know, the baseline to something that if you just,
0:16:23if cost is your absolute, your absolute king for you,
0:16:27the cheapest Mac you can get is now not,
0:16:30you know, it has gotten a nice big boost,
0:16:32so that's a nice plus.
0:16:34- There's also the entire world of things you can do
0:16:37with a Mac in a data center, like,
0:16:39so there's Mac Mini Cola, Mac Stadium,
0:16:41I think they just merged, but you know,
0:16:43you can actually have companies that will host
0:16:47a Mac for you in a data center as a server
0:16:50and so that opens up a lot of possibilities
0:16:53for various types of backend options for your apps maybe
0:16:56or just other kind of like hosted data center roles,
0:16:59maybe it's for things, you know,
0:17:00things like DevOps kinda stuff,
0:17:03and so that option was kind of questionable
0:17:07to invest heavily in when it appeared that the Mac was,
0:17:10that the Mac Mini was going away,
0:17:12was being discontinued and maybe the Mac Pro also was
0:17:14and so now that we have, you know,
0:17:16a promise about the Mac Pro and actual products
0:17:19with the Mac Mini now being updated,
0:17:20I think the option of having Mac Minis being hosted
0:17:24somewhere as a part of your business
0:17:26or a part of your computer life
0:17:29has now become more viable and, you know,
0:17:31a little more future proof going forward,
0:17:33so that's another whole world,
0:17:34I've never gone that world,
0:17:35but we have some friends who have
0:17:36and it seems pretty cool.
0:17:37- Yeah, and I think that world is certainly interesting
0:17:39for, you know, you imagine the earlier topic
0:17:41of like the continuous integration
0:17:44in those types of situations,
0:17:45I think it becomes very interesting if you have a,
0:17:47you know, you have a team that's not all in one location
0:17:51or those types of situations,
0:17:52you could imagine, you know, a Mac Mini
0:17:54that's sitting out somewhere,
0:17:55like it's, the nice thing about it,
0:17:56like it's, obviously you can set up a Linux server,
0:17:59you know, very inexpensively and run a tremendous amount
0:18:02of things, but there's certain things like Xcode
0:18:05that are just for the Mac,
0:18:06and so if you need to do something
0:18:09that is very Mac-centric, if you need a Mac,
0:18:12it's certainly nice that you can put it in a data center,
0:18:14it can be, well, you know, climate controlled
0:18:16and have, you know, beautifully regulated power supplies
0:18:20and all that kind of stuff that, you know,
0:18:22would you get the benefit from a data center
0:18:24rather than just putting it in a closet,
0:18:26so it just certainly is an interesting thing
0:18:27to keep in mind and I'm, you know,
0:18:29I imagine the people who have, you know,
0:18:31if you have Mac Minis that have been running
0:18:34important servers for you right now,
0:18:36I imagine getting the update is gonna be well received
0:18:39after, you know, several, several years of nothing,
0:18:42that you're just, you know, running whatever you had
0:18:44and hoping it just didn't fall down.
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0:20:06So the iPad Pro was updated in a pretty big way.
0:20:09And for developers, obviously there's the direct ramification
0:20:14of if you work on an iPad app, there's a new iPad out,
0:20:19and so sales will probably go up for a little bit
0:20:22and things like that, so there's kind of the obvious things.
0:20:25What are some of the non-obvious implications?
0:20:28I mean, to me, there's two major areas here.
0:20:31There's like, are there any new markets for apps
0:20:34that the new iPads open up?
0:20:36And number two, I think, are there new ways
0:20:40that developers can use iPads for our work?
0:20:44- Yeah, I mean, the biggest thing that comes to mind for me
0:20:47is that I see this device, and I see it's in
0:20:52the initial kind of benchmarks that people
0:20:53seem to be running about it,
0:20:54and they talk about how fast it is.
0:20:55And I see this in a, like, per our earlier discussion,
0:20:58I want the smallest, lightest developer machine possible.
0:21:01Like, that's what I want.
0:21:03And I see this device, and I'm like,
0:21:04why can't I run Xcode on this?
0:21:06Like, I really would love, like, it seems like a great fit
0:21:10for that kind of purpose, and who knows if it'll ever come,
0:21:13but I see this, and that's what I, I love that thought.
0:21:16And then even just looking at it, it's one of these, like,
0:21:19and I have to temper this because aspirationally,
0:21:21I've always thought, oh man, it'd be great to use an iPad
0:21:23as part of my developer, like, situation.
0:21:26I can use a pencil, and I can sketch things out,
0:21:28and I could do a lot of things with it.
0:21:30- That's exactly my rationalization, like,
0:21:31oh, I want to be able to sketch things with a pencil,
0:21:33'cause it's like, I never use paper for that purpose,
0:21:35but for some reason, I think I'll use an iPad
0:21:37for that purpose.
0:21:38- And so, like, I have enough,
0:21:40and enough self-awareness to know that
0:21:42that isn't actually going to happen.
0:21:44That isn't actually what I do.
0:21:46But I see this device, and it's just beautiful.
0:21:48And I think it's very, it seems like it is,
0:21:52its current capabilities are way lower
0:21:55than what its potential is.
0:21:57And I think that is interesting to me,
0:21:59that I think the, I would love a world where this became
0:22:03my travel development setup, and I could do all the things
0:22:07that I could do from it, 'cause it's just, it's gorgeous.
0:22:09I mean, it's, like, visually, I haven't seen one,
0:22:11and I think you have, so you can speak to this
0:22:13a bit more strongly, but it just looks like
0:22:16an amazing device, and it's remarkable to me
0:22:18that it's thinner than an iPhone.
0:22:20And iPhones are pretty thin, and it's, you know,
0:22:22it's this gorgeous, teeny, but tremendously capable
0:22:26and powerful device that, you know, like,
0:22:29the initial Geekbench scores that people seem
0:22:32to be finding for it indicate, I mean,
0:22:34or even just comparing it to an iPhone XS or XR,
0:22:38like, the A12 chip is, you know, faster than most of the,
0:22:43most of the MacBook line, and for certain operations,
0:22:47it is probably faster than, you know, it is faster
0:22:50than all of the MacBook line, and it's like,
0:22:51it's kind of a crazy thing that it's,
0:22:54it feels like this tremendous tool,
0:22:56and I'm just frustrated I can't use it,
0:22:58or at least I can't use it for the core thing that I do,
0:23:01and I have to kind of invent reasons and justifications
0:23:04for using it, which, in practice,
0:23:06has never actually worked for me.
0:23:08- I'm the exact same way.
0:23:10I want this object so badly.
0:23:12It is so cool, and I use an iPad all the time.
0:23:15Like, I use an iPad Pro in my house constantly.
0:23:19It is my, like, kitchen and living room computer, basically,
0:23:23and, but, you know, but it's doing basic consumption tasks
0:23:26most of the time.
0:23:27It's doing overcast playback and web browsing
0:23:30and email and Twitter and stuff like that,
0:23:32and so I have no need for one of these things,
0:23:35but man, do I wish I did, and I might buy one anyway,
0:23:38because they're just that good.
0:23:39Like, they are exactly as good in person as you think.
0:23:42Like, I had some brief hands-on time with it.
0:23:44It is exactly as good as you think it is.
0:23:46Like, it's fantastic.
0:23:47The new Pencil, and that's, so, the Pencil is the one area
0:23:50where I think, like, what opens up new possibilities here
0:23:54is, you know, if you had an app that, like,
0:23:59couldn't be on the iPad for some reason,
0:24:01it probably still can't.
0:24:03Like, with very few exceptions, like,
0:24:05the new iPads haven't really added new types of apps
0:24:08that can be made.
0:24:09They have just made everything better
0:24:11that was there before.
0:24:12There is one exception, and that is if your app
0:24:14was very dependent on the Pencil,
0:24:16or needed that secondary Pencil gesture,
0:24:19where now they have the double tap on the Pencil
0:24:20to switch tools or have your app interpreted
0:24:23however it wants to interpret it.
0:24:25I feel like the new Pencil being,
0:24:28having that permanent on-top attachment,
0:24:30and having it always be charged and everything,
0:24:32I think the result, you know, a lot of us bought iPad Pros
0:24:34over the last couple years, and Pencils,
0:24:37and a lot of us have used them, but a lot of us haven't.
0:24:39A lot of us, like the Pencil, is lost or sitting
0:24:42in a drawer discharged most of the time,
0:24:44or at the bottom of a bag 'cause it fell off,
0:24:46and, you know, it's discharged also.
0:24:48And so to have a Pencil that is always there
0:24:50and always charged is a pretty big shift
0:24:53in how easy it is to use the Pencil if you have it,
0:24:57and how often you are likely to use it then.
0:24:59So any app where Pencil input was important or required,
0:25:04I think that kind of app will now see a boost,
0:25:07and now has opportunity to capitalize on these new models
0:25:10where most other apps, the result will just be,
0:25:12you can do what you could do before faster.
0:25:14- Yeah, and the other thing with the iPad
0:25:16that I think about, and I always get stuck on it,
0:25:18it's like I love the thought of making apps for it,
0:25:23but I still don't feel like there's
0:25:25a rich enough marketplace for it.
0:25:27Like the device feels too specialized and too,
0:25:32like, I don't know, like the economics of it
0:25:35just never quite work out on my mind.
0:25:37I mean, I have a couple of iPad apps,
0:25:38and it's just, it's such a, it's a really,
0:25:42it's lovely, but it's just not quite there
0:25:44when you compare it to its big,
0:25:45it's like its little brother, the iPhone,
0:25:47just crushes in terms of volume,
0:25:50and all of the things that you kind of have to,
0:25:52if any aspect of your business model
0:25:54has to make it up with volume,
0:25:56the iPad isn't there at this point.
0:25:58And I think especially the iPad Pros
0:26:00are like even smaller of a subset, of a subset.
0:26:04Like it's the, most iPads I imagine that are sold
0:26:08are gonna be the inexpensive, basic iPad,
0:26:13and they're used primarily,
0:26:14like the iPads I see in the world,
0:26:16I see are, it's children either watching shows
0:26:19or playing games or those types of things.
0:26:21Like that is the primary use
0:26:22that I see for iPads in the world.
0:26:25And the iPad Pro is a tremendous device,
0:26:27but it just seems, doesn't seem,
0:26:30like you have to either have the,
0:26:34such a rich and sophisticated application
0:26:37that enables workflows such that people are willing
0:26:40to pay substantial amounts of money for it,
0:26:43or the economics I just don't think work,
0:26:45work out, because it's not the kind of thing
0:26:48that you'll ever make up in volume,
0:26:50that you're gonna be selling, you know,
0:26:51sort of thousands of copies rather than tens
0:26:54or hundreds of thousands of copies of,
0:26:57just because the device volumes are just so much lower.
0:26:59And I think that's disappointing.
0:27:01Like I, I mean, I remember when the iPad first came out
0:27:03and I was super excited
0:27:04and I launched a whole bunch of apps for it.
0:27:06And it was like, there was a period
0:27:08where the iPad did have that sense
0:27:11of a sustainable ecosystem around it,
0:27:14but I just don't feel that now.
0:27:15And I know that it's like,
0:27:16I hear from people who spend a lot of time in that area
0:27:18that, you know, that maybe I'm wrong,
0:27:19maybe there's, it's sort of gradually growing
0:27:22and getting better over time.
0:27:23But, you know, for me and myself,
0:27:25I've just never quite gotten to that point.
0:27:27And it's disappointing.
0:27:28And it kind of makes me sad.
0:27:29And I think, I guess the more people who are like me,
0:27:32who are just kind of sad and don't do anything about it,
0:27:34are part of the problem.
0:27:35But, you know, that was also kind of the reality
0:27:38of where it is.
0:27:39- Yeah, it's tricky with, you know, the economics,
0:27:41as you said, like it's very tricky,
0:27:42because like, as a developer, you,
0:27:44it's the most sensible course of action
0:27:46is usually to optimize for the phone,
0:27:50have a version for the iPad that's kind of just like
0:27:53a big layout for the phone version, and call it a day.
0:27:56And there's not a lot of reason for most people
0:27:59to specialize for the iPad.
0:28:01And that's unfortunate, because like,
0:28:03I think like the very first wave of apps,
0:28:05and games even, for the iPad, were specialized for it.
0:28:09'Cause everyone thought that would be like a bigger market
0:28:11or a sustained market.
0:28:13And then, as iPad has gone on,
0:28:16I think the economics of everything caught up with everybody
0:28:18and everyone, you know, kind of contracted and optimized
0:28:21and realized like they're better off
0:28:22just making iPhone versions bigger economically.
0:28:25But I do feel like that is holding the platform
0:28:27back in some way.
0:28:28That's why, you know, maybe the upcoming marzipan stuff
0:28:31might actually be really good, because in the sense that like
0:28:33it merges the iPad and Mac software market to some degree.
0:28:38And the Mac market has big apps that are custom made
0:28:42to be big and to be productive and everything else.
0:28:45So to have that be merged, I think,
0:28:47might actually be really good for both the Mac and the iPad
0:28:50in the software ecosystem.
0:28:51- Yeah, and I think you can just see it as something that,
0:28:54there seems like there's tremendous potential here.
0:28:57And I think we're going to have to wait probably
0:28:59till next June and next WWDC to really see
0:29:02if that potential is gonna be realized.
0:29:04And when it is realized, what that would look like.
0:29:07'Cause I think if June comes around
0:29:08and there's not a compelling new story,
0:29:11it's kind of a disappointment.
0:29:14But it's very possible with a device this capable,
0:29:17this beautiful, this like everything,
0:29:19like everything's turned up on it.
0:29:20Like it is, there's not much compromise.
0:29:23There's a lot of potential there.
0:29:25And I hope that Apple is able to take advantage of that
0:29:27in the future.
0:29:29- 'Cause it's so nice, I just want one.
0:29:31I think I might just buy one anyway,
0:29:32but I wish, I want it so badly
0:29:35'cause it's just such a nice device.
0:29:36I hope that in the future I can get more
0:29:39of my work done on it.
0:29:41- Me too.
0:29:41- Anyway, thanks for listening everybody.
0:29:43And we'll talk to you next week.
0:29:44- Bye.
0:29:45[ Silence ]