0:00:00Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development. I'm Mark Orment.
0:00:05And I'm David Smith. Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.
0:00:09So we can start off this episode with some congratulations are in order. You shipped
0:00:14update 2022.2.
0:00:18I'm really good at version numbers these days.
0:00:19The version numbers are the best, but the result of the content of that update is amazing.
0:00:24So this is the final, the overcast, redesign part one update that we've talked about bits
0:00:31and pieces of over the last couple of weeks, but it's finally out. And congratulations.
0:00:36It's super cool. And it seems like the response to it has been super positive. So that's awesome
0:00:40to see it out in the world and to see it so well received.
0:00:43Thank you. Yeah, I'm ridiculously relieved. I was so nervous to ship this, you know, because
0:00:49part of it was just it's a huge change and it wasn't just a re-skinning. There's a lot
0:00:53of under the hood changes. There's a lot of small and big feature changes as well. So
0:00:59it's a pretty large update. It's the largest single update I've done in a pretty long time
0:01:03and possibly ever. And so it was a really big deal for me. And I was nervous, you know,
0:01:10because I'd been running it only myself for a while. I've been working on it since around
0:01:15Thanksgiving. So it was running only me for a while. And then eventually about a month
0:01:21ago or so, I started a semi-public beta. So I'm linking a couple thousand people on the
0:01:27beta and then people reporting issues and giving feedback mostly in my beta Slack channel,
0:01:33which is public if anybody wants to join. But it was still very nerve-wracking for me
0:01:39to ship it from the maybe thousand people who were in the beta to my entire user base,
0:01:45which is much more than that. And so it was nerve-wracking in a lot of ways. And I was
0:01:51doing the whole thing where I was telling press people ahead of time, all right, it's
0:01:53going to be released on this date. Here's the Test Flight link. You can join it and
0:01:56see the preview if you want. I'm happy to answer any questions. You know, the whole
0:01:59press circuit. And it did get a lot of press. But I didn't know if it was going to be positive
0:02:03or not. Then it gets out to the whole public and now it's out to the whole user base. And
0:02:07certainly the reaction from the beta group was very positive. The reaction from the press
0:02:12was very positive. The reaction from the overall user base percentage-wise is very positive.
0:02:20But of course, I'm getting many messages on Twitter and email from people who don't like
0:02:24it just because it's still a small percentage, but it's a small percentage of a bigger number.
0:02:29And so I'm still hearing from a lot of individual people who don't like certain parts of it.
0:02:34But I've had a lot of really interesting takeaways from this process. I mean, it's not only,
0:02:40you know, obviously sitting on something for, what has it been, five months or whatever
0:02:44it's been. It's a lot of time to bulk up or to batch up changes and release them all
0:02:49at once. There's issues with that. But for the most part, most of those things have gone
0:02:54pretty well. You know, the number of bugs has been pretty low. The weirdness on servers
0:02:58hasn't really happened that I was fearing. But a lot about the design is, it was very,
0:03:05I felt very confident in this design. I think it looks great and I'm very happy with it.
0:03:10But it also kind of felt like my admitting to the world or presenting myself to the world
0:03:17as a semi-designer. And we talked about this before, like being developers first. And my
0:03:25design skills were pretty bad when I was first putting apps out. And I've slowly worked
0:03:32on that over time. And I think now my design skills are decent. I wouldn't say I'm a
0:03:37great designer, but I think now I've reached the point where I am decent at it. And I've
0:03:42reached the point where I no longer think I need to involve other designers in most
0:03:46of my app design decisions. And I think it turned out really well. And I think I'm
0:03:52also taking it in a direction where I'm trying to make everything much more modern,
0:03:58much more colorful, trying to appeal more to non-nerds. And when you look at apps that
0:04:06non-nerds use, like this is kind of how this, the genesis of this new design idea was that
0:04:12my wife, Tiff, and I were on a vacation right before Thanksgiving. And she was showing me
0:04:16an app. And I don't even know, I think I might have been Pinterest or something.
0:04:19But she was showing me an app that had these big pills for navigation between sections.
0:04:23And she's like, "Look, this is how modern apps look. Like this is how like cool modern
0:04:28apps that young people are using, this is how they look." And I was like, "Huh."
0:04:32And I've been wanting to do custom colors and custom icons on playlists for a while.
0:04:36And I didn't quite have an idea in my head of like how would that look. And when I saw
0:04:41the pill shape, I'm like, "You know, I think that would actually work really well."
0:04:47And so like that night, I whipped together like, you know, a quick version of it in Overcast,
0:04:52and you know, a very basic version. And I ran it in the simulator. And I'm like, "That
0:04:57looks amazing." I put it on my phone, and I showed Tiff the next day at lunch. And she's
0:05:01like, "Yeah, that's great. Go that direction." And so that kind of the genesis of this. I
0:05:08mean, there were a lot of other aspects of it too. I mean, I don't know how much time
0:05:10you want to get into it here, but there were…
0:05:12We got 30 minutes.
0:05:13That's true. You know, there are all sorts of aspects of, you know, things I've wanted
0:05:16to do for a while. You know, the font was one of those things. We talked before about
0:05:22how I was giving up my custom font for the system font. But San Francisco as a base font
0:05:27is a little boring. And that was always the criticism levied against it, you know, in
0:05:30my app was like, "Hey, the old font had more personality. This font is too boring."
0:05:35But I wanted all the benefits of the system fonts. And so I switched it to SF Rounded.
0:05:40And then about halfway through the design process, I enabled the alternate glyphs for
0:05:44four, six, and nine digits, which has instead of the little curly ends on the six and nine,
0:05:51it does straight ends. And on the four, it like opens up the top instead of being a closed
0:05:55pointy top. And I think those changes really push it over the edge because that adds a
0:06:01lot of personality. Not to mention that I think it looks better, and I think it's
0:06:04more legible at small sizes, and I have a lot of small text in the app for things like
0:06:08time stamps. So that's why I went that direction on that. But I think I was able to get a lot
0:06:12of personality out of SF Rounded that I wasn't getting from regular San Francisco. And then
0:06:18that made up the personality gap that I was seeking. And so this all kind of came together
0:06:21with like using SF symbols for the icons everywhere, using SF Rounded with the alternative glyphs
0:06:26for that. Like all of this came together to be really nice. And I'm very, very happy
0:06:31with how it turned out. And so far, the reactions, you know, in, you know, press and reviews
0:06:37and everything have all been pretty good. I mean, the only the only negativity I've
0:06:42gotten was a combination of people who don't like change at all, which frankly, I, you
0:06:48know, I know I'm never going to win that that fight. But frankly, I understand that.
0:06:53Because whenever you change anything that's been I mean, look, this design has been mostly
0:06:57unchanged since Overcast 1.0 in 2014. I mean, I designed that basically for iOS seven. And,
0:07:05you know, the world has moved on quite a bit since then, in terms of what you know, how
0:07:08apps should be designed now. But so you know, so I had no choice but to change it if I wanted
0:07:13the app to not look old. So I so you know, I was going to change it to something but,
0:07:18you know, a lot of a lot of people are understandably just change change averse and tired of change
0:07:24for the sake of change because so much in the tech world changes all the time, oftentimes
0:07:29just for the sake of change and not making things actually better, or sometimes actually
0:07:33making things worse for people. So you know, there's some fatigue there, which I understand.
0:07:38And there's a combination of that. And also, like, I added this big new recent section
0:07:43on the home screen. And a lot of people didn't want to spend the space on that. And there
0:07:48was a way to hide it. But I kind of buried it, I couldn't find a good place to put it.
0:07:52And so I put it in a not a very good place. And so I actually yesterday I shipped an update
0:07:58that adds two more ways to hide the recent section in places that are that people are
0:08:01much more likely to look for it. And so I think that'll help a little bit, you know,
0:08:06with that resistance. But the other weird thing is that this this is kind of funny,
0:08:11I think, but but it's something that's that's worth considering when you're looking
0:08:15at redesigning your app. One of the things that people are really tired of, especially
0:08:19nerds is like space inefficient layouts, layouts that have very low information density, where
0:08:26you have to do much more scrolling or swiping to get to the stuff that you could otherwise
0:08:29before fit on one screen. Now, a lot of the the negative reaction to the design was you
0:08:35made everything bigger. And actually, playlists, podcasts and episode cells are all the exact
0:08:44same heights as the previous design. And like on my market org post, I actually showed side
0:08:49by side screenshots. And you can see it clear as day like they didn't get taller. But
0:08:53because they now have this pill shape on the playlist, and it looks bigger, it looks more
0:08:59tangible, because it's now it's this object, you know, and it's more colorful, and there's
0:09:03an icon. And so it's actually the same total height, including the margins, the same total
0:09:07height as it was before, and you can fit the same number of playlists on screen as you
0:09:11could before. But because it looks different, people think it is taller, and they think
0:09:17it's less information dense. And so that's been an interesting side effect. And I don't
0:09:22really know what to do about that exactly, except, I guess, just give people time. I
0:09:26mean, those who have written in I've responded with, you know, this little text painter template,
0:09:30basically, like, you know, actually here, you know, these are actually the same height,
0:09:33but thanks for the feedback, you know, and, and I don't know how much that's gonna
0:09:37do. But otherwise, you know, with those exceptions of like, you know, a little bit of negative
0:09:41feedback on those aspects. Otherwise, it's been very, very positive. And I'm just glad
0:09:46to have it out there. And I'm not, you know, as I've mentioned in the past, I'm not done
0:09:50redesigning the app. There's still lots of areas in the app that have old screens that
0:09:54I want to redesign. But I wanted to get this out there. This is part one. And yeah, so
0:09:58far, it's been going great.
0:09:59Yeah, I mean, a year. Yeah, it's like, it's the outside for a as big of a redesign as
0:10:06it was, the results that you've got sounds overwhelmingly positive that you're never
0:10:10going to please everybody, there's always going to be people who are just don't like
0:10:13change because they don't like change. And that's fair enough. And that's just the reality.
0:10:17But you can't keep a design for, you know, a decade, half a decade, a decade, just because
0:10:22some people don't like change. But what I particularly like about this update is in
0:10:26many ways, like I've been using it since you started the beta test. And it feels very much
0:10:32like it wasn't like you just took the old design and threw it away, and tried to come
0:10:37up with something new for newness sake, it feels very much more like you. It's like the
0:10:42sort of the old allegory of the university campus that doesn't put in sidewalks, but
0:10:47just for a year or two, let's people walk around, and then finds where people actually
0:10:50go and build the sidewalks there. This feels very much like an app like a redesign that
0:10:55is based in after whatever, you know, six years, whatever it is, of people using this
0:11:01app, you found the places where there was these tensions or these inefficiencies or
0:11:08things that were frustrating. And you've rounded those off and made them better. Like, for
0:11:12me, the in the playlist, the main playlist list is now so much even I love that it's
0:11:19so much more sort of scannable, because I can use different colors and different glyphs
0:11:23for each of my playlists, it makes it really easy without really having to pay attention
0:11:27to find what I'm looking for. Whereas the other one, it was just a word. And that is
0:11:34an efficiency that has made it so much clearer. And then the recent section, personally, I
0:11:40love it for the same reason I love your widget, is like 90% of the time that I'm using Overcast,
0:11:47what do I want to do? I'd either listen to the last thing I was listening to, or I want
0:11:52to listen to the most recent episode that was published in my subscription list that
0:11:57either I'm going to resume where I was doing or, oh, it's, you know, it's the new episode
0:12:01of ATP came out, let me listen to it. And you've made those operations, I can either
0:12:07do it from the widget or now in the app itself. It's like, that's the number one thing that
0:12:11I do is now super easy to do. And it feels like that sort of that rounding off of things
0:12:16just makes this redesign feel very, like it feels like it's a natural improvement in
0:12:21growth rather than a redesign that just is like, we've come up with this whole new paradigm
0:12:25for how you're going to listen to, you know, listen to playlists, we're going to put them
0:12:29into a chronological timeline feed, and then we're going to algorithmically read, you know,
0:12:33read, it's like you haven't tried to reinvent it, you've just made it better. And so, you
0:12:37know, put me into the category of I love the redesign, I think it's good. And I think there's
0:12:42definitely going to be a, you know, a gradual period where people have to adapt to it. But
0:12:46overall, because I think it's coming from that place of improving the most common operations,
0:12:51it's such a huge win, sort of in the long haul.
0:12:55John
0:12:58Part of this was also, you know, it was a pretty significant feature update in certain
0:13:01areas. And, you know, a lot of those were things that like the Marcus played button.
0:13:06This has dogged me for eight years, like since 1.0 came out almost eight years ago. People
0:13:15have been asking, how do you mark an episode as played without playing it? A lot of people,
0:13:18myself included, were like, well, I don't know, just delete it. Like I just figured
0:13:21deleting was enough. But a lot of people really want the distinction of, I don't want to just
0:13:29delete this, I want to show up as played in the list. And I don't want to and people want
0:13:34that so badly that they would often open it up, scan to the end, let it hit the end. And
0:13:41that's how they would mark it as played. And they would often do this to many episodes
0:13:45at once, like if they wanted to, like, you know, fix up, you know, their set, their status
0:13:48of a whole season of something or whatever. And so, you know, integrating Marcus played
0:13:52as like a very high level feature, like it's prominent in the interface, gets its own button
0:13:57next to the delete button, you know, that kind of thing. That was a pretty large change.
0:14:02But I had eight years of support email and tweets saying, how do I mark something as
0:14:08played? I really need this feature or I can't figure out. Like people were often confused,
0:14:11like the idea of the feature not even being there didn't enter their mind. So they weren't
0:14:16saying, can you please add this? They were saying, where, how do you do this? Where is
0:14:19this? It was so obvious to them this had to be there. And so for eight years, it wasn't.
0:14:24And so adding that was a big thing on the playlist screen, you know, having I have the
0:14:28ability to manually drag them around to reorder them. That's something that people have been
0:14:33showing me over over the last few years, like they've been just hacking it by by putting
0:14:36like, you know, 12345, like prefixing all their titles in there. Or and even the idea
0:14:41of icons, people would would like start their titles with an emoji, you know, because I
0:14:46didn't, I didn't offer icon support until now. And, and so there were all sorts of hacks
0:14:50people were doing to try to make it work the way they wanted to. And what my goal here
0:14:55was ultimately like, first of all, let's get let's get rid of the need to do most of those
0:14:59hacks and make this easier for people. And second of all, try to make it even more flexible
0:15:04to accommodate even more preferences and patterns that people want to do that aren't the way
0:15:11I use it. So that's why you know, playlists became much more flexible, the Marcus played
0:15:15thing, reorderable, pinable podcasts, which I have paid no podcasts in my list, but everyone's
0:15:21everyone has asked for so long, I want to be able to reorder podcasts on the on the
0:15:25on the main screen. And reordering podcasts when the list is dynamic, is a little tricky.
0:15:30That's why so now I have like a pinned option, and then you can reorder the pinned ones.
0:15:34So you know, there's like a way to accommodate what people want to do without introducing
0:15:37weird edge cases and stuff like that. So this is very much an update of like, let me let
0:15:41me address the most requested features over years and years and years of feedback and
0:15:46try to accommodate people who are who use it in a way that's not what I had in mind,
0:15:51but who are still trying to use the app for you know, for something else. Anyway, we are
0:15:55brought to you by Microsoft lists. Are you looking for a new way to track and manage
0:16:01work and life from start to finish? Microsoft lists is here to help you clear your brain
0:16:06space and get organized. And it all starts at lists.live.com. Microsoft kicked off a
0:16:12preview program to try lists with your Microsoft account, all designed for small business and
0:16:17individual use. Hey, that sounds like us. Start by creating and sharing your lists with
0:16:22your work colleagues, partners, your soccer team, or your neighbors, or even just yourself.
0:16:27You might create a list of books or movies for your monthly meetings, track home improvement
0:16:31and important receipts throughout the year, build out team rosters for your soccer team
0:16:35or volunteer group, and just so many more possibilities. At lists.live.com, you can
0:16:40get started quickly with ready made templates, you can use filters and views to visualize
0:16:44your information. So you can have only one list with many views, or lots of other lists,
0:16:49whatever you might want, you can share your lists as links, you can get other people's
0:16:52thoughts and work together on a list, you can do so much with lists, the ready made
0:16:57templates save you time, or you can start blank and add on exactly what and how you
0:17:01want to track your information. So it's super flexible, great for things like issue trackers,
0:17:06or asset managers, or work progress trackers, or you know, regular personal stuff like gift
0:17:11idea lists, playlists, media lists. So go try the preview now at no cost. Go to your
0:17:16browser, type in lists.live.com. That's lists.live.com. Sign up, sign in and track what matters most.
0:17:24Check it out and let Microsoft know what you like and any feature requests. Our thanks
0:17:29to Microsoft for their support of this show and all of Relay FM.
0:17:32Yeah, and I think what you're doing here is naturally going to get that kind of feedback
0:17:37because when you're, you know, with Marcus played, for so long, the app has been optimized
0:17:43for like 10% of its users, the people who are like, oh, just delete it. And that's what
0:17:48they think. And now you're switching it around so that rather than catering to the 10%, you're
0:17:53catering to the 90%. And so people are going to be like, blah, blah, you know, I liked
0:17:57it because you were doing what they thought about it before. And so like, why did you
0:18:03add this button and take up this valuable screen real estate? And it's the realization
0:18:06that's like, well, it's much more important for your app and its longevity and its utility
0:18:11if the 90% of people who are reaching out to you or telling you are being confused and
0:18:17not telling you, which is even worse. It's way better for you to be taking care of them
0:18:22in a way that, you know, it's just better overall for the longevity of the app. And
0:18:27I feel like waiting and sort of getting too stuck on old things just because, you know,
0:18:33some people like it, you end up with the, you know, with an app that doesn't have a
0:18:38sense of, I don't know, a sense of life, a sense of improvement, a sense of evolution.
0:18:43And that's kind of, yeah, it's something I've gotten stuck on many times where I get, you
0:18:48get that negative feedback and you're like, oh, it's, hmm, did I do the wrong thing? And
0:18:52it's like, as long as you're coming from a place of more people, you know, it's definitely
0:18:55more people have been complaining, more people are being confused. In my case, I've started
0:18:59adding analytics into my apps. One of the big things for it is that I can understand
0:19:04where the pain points are, where the problems are, where people are confused. And then I
0:19:08make a change and the confusion goes away. Like, that's a huge win. And I feel like you've
0:19:13done a lot of that in this update, which is just very, you know, very cool. And I think
0:19:17in the long term, and if you think about the new user to Overcast, their experience is
0:19:22going to be so much better as a result.
0:19:24Yeah, and that's, that's, that's the thing, really. It's, you know, like, I know that
0:19:28it's, it's hard because when, when I change something, and when I get feedback, like what
0:19:34I've gotten over the last couple of days from people who are not happy about it because
0:19:37it changed, or maybe it makes their use case slightly different, or maybe, you know, I
0:19:41try not to make anything worse for people. But, you know, certainly like I had like,
0:19:45you know, the Marcus played button, I, I moved a button on that episode toolbar. I moved
0:19:50the like, playlist membership kind of button, you know, add to queue, you know, stuff like
0:19:54that. I moved that from spot number four to spot number two out of the five. I've heard
0:20:00from a lot of people who, who say, you know, this breaks my muscle memory, where, you know,
0:20:04now I have to move over here. Or they, they say, where did you put this? They didn't even
0:20:07bother looking under the, the now, you know, ellipsis menu. And I understand that, like,
0:20:13I don't break muscle memory lightly. But in this case, I was thinking of like, all right,
0:20:18well, I have these two actions now, Marcus played and delete, that both effectively delete
0:20:23the podcast just with different semantic, you know, results. But these should be next
0:20:28to each other, because these are two very similar actions. And so I need them both to
0:20:33be to be an extra shot. So I figure out now that the right side of this split is those
0:20:37two buttons. That's how you get rid of a podcast. And then the left side is acting on that podcast
0:20:42without getting rid of it. So that's the share button, and the Add to Playlist button. And
0:20:47I also put the star in that menu, because I kind of replaced where the star was in the
0:20:50toolbar. And so really, the only thing that got worse here was starring, because starring
0:20:55is now two taps instead of one from that from that location. But something did move. Now,
0:21:00I'm hearing from a lot of people who are upset about the move, but I think that's going to
0:21:04be a short term pain, I think give, you know, in two weeks, I think I'm gonna stop hearing
0:21:07about it, because everyone will be used to the new location. So I have to think like
0:21:11long term here, this temporary negative feedback about that move is going to be gone in a matter
0:21:17of weeks, probably, or at least mostly gone. Whereas conceptually, the app will be cleaner
0:21:22and simpler for everyone and for new users, especially forever after this. So it's better
0:21:27to prioritize for the long term, like what's that what's right here, even if in the short
0:21:32term, people are going to be a little bit upset, I moved something, you know, but eventually
0:21:36that will solve itself. I mean, you know, as I as I look forward, and I want to tackle
0:21:40the now playing screen next. And one of the things I want to do with the now playing screen
0:21:45is get rid of the horizontally swiping cards and shift the what is now in cards, which
0:21:49is the effects panel, the info, the show notes panel on the chapter panel. I want to move
0:21:53those to slide up sheets that slide up from the bottom. Because that's the more modern
0:21:58design that makes more sense. That'll solve some discoverability issues I've had with
0:22:00this design. And that and there's lots of other reasons to do it as well. But I know
0:22:06that's, that's a major change. And that will break people's muscle memory. And I
0:22:10could do something, you know, in the short term, I could do something temporary, like
0:22:13I could maybe, you know, if they swipe to the right, you know, to bring up the effects
0:22:17panel, I can intercept the swipe and slide up, I think, from the bottom. That's kind
0:22:20of crappy. I mean, it's not that's not a great solution. The better solution is just
0:22:24leave it pure and let them you know, let them learn the new thing. But that will cause short
0:22:28term pain. And I will hear from a lot of people about that when I do that. But again, the
0:22:33result long term will be well, they're gonna get used to this, and it'll be fine. And
0:22:38then it'll be better. I mean, and if you look like overcast over its eight years has
0:22:43had something like four or five major changes to the now playing screen, including structural
0:22:50changes like whether it's a sheet where it comes from what you know, whether it's
0:22:55whether it's a card overlapping the thing below it, where the different panels come
0:22:58from what they what form they take, like, that's actually changed a lot over time,
0:23:01just not recently. And right now, no one complains about my now playing screen having changed
0:23:05because the last time it changed was like, probably three years ago. Maybe maybe even
0:23:09more. So yeah, it's been Yeah, and so, you know, when I do that, you know, the change
0:23:15is going to hurt in the short term with a lot of those people. But in the long term,
0:23:19if I'm making something that's better, that's less complicated, that's less confusing,
0:23:23more usable, and has and then gives me room to add more features, which I want to do there,
0:23:28then I think I think people will be be okay with it, you know, after a short term.
0:23:32Yeah. And I think optimizing for the, like, for the typical user, for the new user, for
0:23:40the person who's not an overcast expert, I think has a lot of value. Because like,
0:23:45ultimately, that's how you can grow your business. And then you can make the app have
0:23:49a wider and better audience and take better advantage of the every new download you get.
0:23:56Your goal is to turn that into someone who's using the app all the time, who isn't confused,
0:23:59who isn't bouncing off and saying, I don't get it, I'll just use apples or whatever,
0:24:04like optimizing in some ways for those users, I think just makes a lot of sense. And increasingly,
0:24:07I feel that being too stuck into those, yeah, it's like that you're gonna you're gonna
0:24:13like me with muscle memory is you'll build a new muscle memory that you know, this happens
0:24:17almost every year with something in iOS, when they change, they make a change from iOS 14
0:24:21to 15. They just move some things around, they change the way some operations work.
0:24:25And we just adapt and there's like two or three days where you're like, huh, what
0:24:29do I do? And then Oh, now it's now now I have new muscle memory. Like that's just
0:24:33the nature of muscle memory. It isn't this permanent thing that is completely inflexible.
0:24:38It's just inconvenient for a few days. And as long as it's like if you change, you're
0:24:42sort of changing a feature in such a way that the old thing is completely gone and doesn't
0:24:46exist. Fair enough. That's sort of a bigger deal. But if you just moved it around, don't
0:24:50do that lightly. But do do it when it makes it better. And when it makes the common case
0:24:55more obvious and more accessible, makes, you know, he seems like an overall huge win to
0:24:59me.
0:25:00Yeah, yeah. I mean, overall, I'm, I'm very, I'm very confident in this. Like, you know,
0:25:05I knew there was going to be some pushback from people who would not like, you know,
0:25:08mostly just change, and maybe who wouldn't like my particular choices. I knew that was
0:25:12going to happen. But I'm so confident that this is better, that I'm willing to push
0:25:17forward with it. And that's that's that can be a dangerous feeling. You know, you
0:25:20have to be pretty sure you're right. If you're wrong, that's that's a pretty bad
0:25:25feeling. But but I think in this case, I think I'm right. And I think the the the press
0:25:30coverage had kind of helped validate that for me because like, well, here's a bunch
0:25:33of people who are, you know, professionals in this area who see tons of apps who review
0:25:37tons of apps, and they all thought it was pretty good. So all right, I think I think
0:25:40I'm on the right track here. But, you know, it's it's been getting through the first
0:25:45couple of weeks of feedback is certainly a little bit challenging sometimes. But overall,
0:25:48it's been great. And I'm very, very happy with it.
0:25:50No, and you should be because I think the reality too, is you're benefiting from a you
0:25:55like, like you, you think about overcast all the time, you probably go to sleep thinking
0:25:59about it, you wake up thinking about it, you dream about it, if you're anything like,
0:26:02yeah, it can take over your mind, like you think a lot about this, you have deep opinions
0:26:06about it, you basing those opinions on, you know, hundreds, if not thousands of pieces
0:26:12of feedback that you've received, and we've kind of jumbled together and aggregated in
0:26:16your mind. And so when you make a choice, you're making you're not making it lightly,
0:26:20you're not making it it's not, it's very easy to have an opinion online, it's much
0:26:24harder to collect and gather feedback over the course of, you know, almost a decade,
0:26:29and being sort of a true expert, and then having an expert opinion and understand that,
0:26:33like that gives you a lot more justification and validation that you're not doing, you
0:26:37know, being silly here. And you can make your certainly not to say you can't make mistakes,
0:26:40but it's much more likely that you're doing something that is coming from that place of
0:26:45expertise rather than someone who's just grumpy that something changed.
0:26:49Yeah, and that's it. And that's, that's what gives me the confidence to know that
0:26:53some of these decisions are right, even though, you know, I might get a temporary blowback
0:26:57by changing something in a way that makes it worse for somebody for a few weeks, you
0:27:01know, that like, I know, in my heart, I know that like, yeah, I've this what this person
0:27:06is saying, like, you know, some, so many people who who don't use things like Marcus played,
0:27:11they're, they're like, why do you give that its own button? And I'm like, trust me,
0:27:16eight years of messages telling me this needs to be its own button. And a lot of people
0:27:20who are, you know, they're like, Oh, why don't you hide it behind a gesture? Trust
0:27:23me, I know from other previous experiences, that anything that is only available via gesture
0:27:28will never be found by so many people, you know, and there's just all sorts of principles
0:27:31like that, that like, like, yes, I what you're what you're saying is a decent idea. However,
0:27:37I have thought of that, or I have tried that, or I have this other information to say, this
0:27:41is why I don't want to do that. Or this is why that wouldn't work as well for a lot
0:27:44of people as you might expect. You know, again, that's something that, you know, basically
0:27:47only the app owner can really know. But yeah, so I am, I am so tired. I'm glad this is
0:27:58out. I'm glad that the bug fixes are mostly pretty limited in what's necessary. I did
0:28:04have to do a ridiculous thing yesterday to fix some voiceover shortcomings. But that'll
0:28:09be a story for another time, I think, because I had to basically write my own UI action
0:28:13wrapper. Okay, because there are so many areas in the API, where like, you want something
0:28:19similar to UI action, but it's not quite the same subclass. And UI action, hopefully does
0:28:23not expose its callback in the public API. So if you create a UI action, you cannot use
0:28:31that to like create anything else from it. So I had to do things like, you know, there's,
0:28:36UI alert action, which is different from UI action, which is different from UI accessibility
0:28:41custom action, not to mention all the stuff and notifications, everything. There's so
0:28:45many places in the API where you need something that's like an action, but is not a UI action
0:28:49class. And so I had to create like the superclass that it's just called FC action. It just has
0:28:54regular, you know, callback that is public API. And you know, a basic style, you know,
0:29:00destructive cancel or not. And then, you know, title, icon, all that stuff. And then that
0:29:04class can generate a menu, an action, a UI accessibility, actually, whatever it needs
0:29:09to do. But finally, I have that all figured out. You know, that's, again, one of those
0:29:13little things like, oh, voiceover has a weird menu here. How do you fix that? Well, there
0:29:16goes a day, you know, because the API is really weird about this. But otherwise, other than
0:29:21that kind of stuff, it's been it's been great. And I'm very happy it's done. So thank you,
0:29:26everybody, for all of your support. Thank you, Dave, for your support in this and your
0:29:29feedback during the process. Thank you to my beta group for all their feedback in the
0:29:33process. It's been it's been great.
0:29:35Jared Ranerel, Jr. Great. And you should feel good about it. Now you should go, you know,
0:29:40the benefit from the fact that you live in a beach town. Just, you know, go walk out,
0:29:44sit on the beach, look at the waves, take a rest. You've earned it.
0:29:47David Schanzer It's 30 degrees. Thank you, everybody, for
0:29:49listening. Talk to you in two weeks. Bye.