0:00:00Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development. I'm Marco Arment.
0:00:05And I'm David Smith. Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.
0:00:09So today we're going to start talking about constraints, and sort of especially self-imposed
0:00:16constraints. And in some ways this is just like the follow-on to what I just said, where
0:00:20it's like never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started. And it's kind of coming
0:00:24from a place where I've been—so this last week, John Gruber and Ben Thompson launched
0:00:29a podcast called Dithering, which is limited to 15 minutes, sort of no more, no less. And
0:00:35it reminded me, obviously, of our show, of Under the Radar, and in many ways even moreover of
0:00:42my previous show, To Under the Radar, which was called Developing Perspective, which is a show
0:00:46I did for about four years before Under the Radar. And it was never longer than 15 minutes,
0:00:51so let's get started. And it's one of those things that I've found that limit. Every podcast
0:01:00I've ever done, other than a few one-off interview shows or things like that, there's always been a
0:01:06limit. And I'm just used to it now. In my mind, when I'm podcasting, there's always a hard limit.
0:01:10But it is certainly abnormal in some ways for podcasts, and it is not something that is typical.
0:01:17But I think the reason why I got started with Developing Perspective with a 15-minute limit,
0:01:21I think, is instructive just in general for creative endeavors and things that you want
0:01:27to start and things that you want to make. Because what I've found—and this applies just generally—is
0:01:32that having constraints of any kind usually increases the quality of the output that you
0:01:39end up with. And obviously you can constrain for many different things, but in the case of
0:01:45podcasts, some of the easiest things to do is to constrain the length and to say, "I'm going to
0:01:49limit myself to Developing Perspective is 15 minutes, Under the Radar is 30 minutes." And it
0:01:56gives you this tremendous focusing tool and this ability to... There's this hard thing that you
0:02:04have in your mind that you have to work around. And the process of working around it and getting
0:02:08good at working around it makes you better. It makes you a better podcast, a better app maker,
0:02:14better artist, whatever it might be, because that constraint is a useful thing. But I'm curious,
0:02:20before I get into that too much, Marc, because you were actually—I've never listened to Developing
0:02:23Perspective as a listener, but I know you did. And I'm curious if you remember your first experience
0:02:29with that limit and what that meant to you or how that resonated with you when you first came across
0:02:40that style. I think you hooked me pretty fast. I realized this show is interesting and I want more
0:02:44of it. But before a listener reaches that point, before you've hooked somebody, before they've
0:02:50decided they like you and they want to listen to more of you, having a constraint like that,
0:02:55I think, helps people get in the door more. Because as a podcast listener for a very long
0:03:00time, way before I made my own app, I had the same problems that many people have, which is
0:03:06most podcast enthusiasts have more podcasts to listen to than they have time to listen to them.
0:03:13And many tech shows, especially—because tech shows are what I know, so this is kind of the
0:03:18role I know—many tech shows are done in kind of a loose conversational manner. That's how
0:03:24almost everything I do is done. And what that does usually is expand to fill lots of time,
0:03:30because we're having casual, unscripted conversations with people who are passionate
0:03:34about stuff and want to talk a lot. And so a typical episode of ATP is about two hours long.
0:03:39And many tech shows have one to two hours as their typical length.
0:03:46So when presented with, "Here's a new podcast that I might want to subscribe to,"
0:03:52if it's going to be an hour and a half or two hours a week, I know that realistically I'm
0:03:57probably not going to get to that. Because I already have so many long shows I listen to,
0:04:02I'm probably not going to have enough podcast listening time to add another hour and a half
0:04:06long show. And that's a very common sentiment among podcast listeners. When something new is
0:04:09presented to them, it's like, "Well, do I really want to add another hour commitment a week,
0:04:13basically, of listening? Do I have enough time for that?" And so when you say right up front,
0:04:18in the definition of the show, it's only going to be short. And people know, like,
0:04:24"15 minutes is short." Even 30 minutes is fairly short, but 15 is obviously even more so, right?
0:04:30And so when you say, like, "This is only a 15-minute show every episode," that really,
0:04:36I think, encourages people that, "You know what? No, you probably do have time for this.
0:04:41You can take this one on. This is a small commitment, so you can take a risk on this.
0:04:45Like, if you don't know us already and we're saying our show's only 15 minutes long,
0:04:49you can take a risk on us because you know that it's not that big of a time commitment for you."
0:04:55And a second part of this as a podcast is, like, people often fall behind on podcasts. They might
0:05:01accumulate multiple episodes that they haven't had time to get to, given, you know, maybe they're on,
0:05:07maybe it's like winter vacation and they're home all day or they're stuck in their houses during a
0:05:11month-long quarantine and they don't have a community anymore. Episodes build up for shows
0:05:15in various times for people. And when each of those episodes that's built up is an hour and a
0:05:21half long, you're just going to start deleting them. Or you're going to say you're going to get
0:05:25to them someday and you never will and you'll feel bad and you'll have this podcast debt that you
0:05:30feel guilty about that you're not getting to. If each of those episodes that has stacked up is only
0:05:3515 or 30 minutes long, you know you can plow through them a lot faster. And so you're more
0:05:39likely then to not feel bad about it and to be able to get through all of them on a long walk or,
0:05:44you know, while doing your dishes or something, you can plow through a couple here and there.
0:05:49And that's another thing, short episodes enable people to listen to a complete episode in more
0:05:55contexts. So like, you know, if you only have 10 minutes, 15 minutes, whatever, if you have like
0:06:02a short commute or if you have a short task you're doing, you can get through an entire one of those
0:06:06episodes probably. Whereas you can get through maybe like half of a topic on a tech show, right?
0:06:13- Sure. - So in a lot of contexts,
0:06:15that also is something you want where like you don't wanna like be constantly chopping up what
0:06:19you're listening to. You wanna like have a complete thing and then be done with it and then you can
0:06:23move on to, you know, your next thing. And so having a shorter show improves all of those things.
0:06:28And it isn't what everybody wants. A lot of people, you know, you leave them wanting more and they
0:06:33want more. Maybe they have time. Maybe they listen to podcasts all day as they work and they burn
0:06:38through lots of them. But that's probably not most of the audience. Most of the audience has a time
0:06:42constraint of how much they can listen to per week. And if you're not adding much to that,
0:06:46that'll help get way more people into the door and it'll help you retain people over time.
0:06:51- Yeah, and I can say from my experience, like as a maker of only time-constrained podcasts,
0:06:57like I hear, this is something that I hear very often on the audience side is that, yeah,
0:07:03like there's something helpful. And I think in some ways there's a sense of it is sort of
0:07:10intrinsically trying to be respectful of the listener. And I think that as a listener often
0:07:15you get the feeling that they feel that. That it's the intention of the show becomes about being,
0:07:22you know, sort of respectful of their time and sort of constraining it such that not that
0:07:27necessarily like a two-hour tech show has a lot of filler, like, but it has less focus and less
0:07:33sort of deliverance in it or deliverance is not a word, but deliberation, I guess. It's less
0:07:38deliberate in this potentially in what it does, or it has maybe it has more banter or it has more
0:07:43silly sidetracks and sort of little digressions down the side, which are lovely and are part of
0:07:48what makes the show the show, but are in some ways are less, you know, that they're a trickier thing
0:07:55in terms of what that actually means for the audience. That if the audience is, if you try,
0:07:58if you have an idea you want to communicate and you want to communicate it clearly and you have
0:08:03a time constraint, that will help you to be respectful of your audience's time and really help
0:08:08sort of communicate that in a sort of a concise, like intentional way that is perhaps rather than
0:08:15more rather than the kind of more meandering one or approach where you may like you have the benefit
0:08:20of getting all of the individual's thinking and you might hear them like, you know, give a couple
0:08:25of different versions of their idea and that helps you increase the richness of that communication,
0:08:31perhaps, but it's different if you only have 15 minutes to say it, like you really got to
0:08:35think about it and speak more clearly and help it kind of this is helpful thing. And I think as an
0:08:40audience person, like that was something that I always would hear is that like they liked that,
0:08:45that, you know, developing respect for under the radar. There's a sort of, there's this very,
0:08:49it's respectful of the audience in a way that just honors their time and isn't assuming that I am,
0:08:54I've, I haven't necessarily, I haven't earned more than 15 minutes of your time, or I haven't earned
0:08:59more than 30 minutes of your time. And it's easier for me to kind of make my, make sure that I'm
0:09:03worth it. If all I'm asking for is 15 or 20 minutes rather than, you know, two hours. Yeah,
0:09:09the quality has to be so much higher for that, I think in some ways too.
0:09:12Oh yeah. And like, you know, my mode of speaking, the way I talk on this show is totally different
0:09:18than the way I talk on ATP. That because I'm, I'm always aware of the time. I'm always looking,
0:09:23I'm always keeping an eye on, on that clock in the corner of my screen to see like, all right,
0:09:26how far are we? And, and I know roughly where we are in the show. I know that right now we're
0:09:32at about nine and a half minutes. And so, you know, we're going to do the sponsor break somewhere
0:09:35around 15 minutes. So right now, kind of like two thirds of the way through like the, the initial
0:09:40pre-sponsor break topic. And I know I have to keep a certain pace to get out my thoughts. And then I
0:09:45also am very conscious about what I'm talking a lot, making sure I leave enough time for you
0:09:50to get your thoughts in. So I have to like pull back and stop at a certain point so that I leave
0:09:55enough time for you. And all of this is totally different than how I do ATP. It's, there's,
0:10:00there's none of that in ATP because there's no, there's no time constraint on ATP. I can just,
0:10:04I can talk forever and then John can talk forever and then Casey can talk forever and it's fine.
0:10:08Yeah. And it's just different. It's a different format and it's, it's a,
0:10:12and it's not to say necessarily that I'm saying that like, this is the best way to do podcasts
0:10:15and everyone should do it. It's, but it's, I think there is a powerful thing in it. When you put this
0:10:19constraint on you. And I think too, so that's like on the audience side, but I will say too,
0:10:23on the creator side, like it is a powerful tool to constrain the length or constrain the content
0:10:29or the format or whatever you're going to kind of, you constrain a lot of different things.
0:10:32I think the most powerfully, what that means is that it helps you to start and to feel confident
0:10:39about actually starting the project. Like developing perspective was 15 minutes because
0:10:45I wanted to have a podcast. Like at the time I was this big, like I listened to podcasts
0:10:48constantly. Like I love podcasts, but I never had one. And I was like, I don't know what to do. Do
0:10:52I have enough to speak about, you know, am I well spoken enough? Whatever, all these,
0:10:56the sort of the negative, like self doubt things that I had in my mind. And what I ended up on was,
0:11:02it's like, well, if it's only 15 minutes, like I can say, like, I can speak for 15 minutes about
0:11:07a topic and I don't feel like I'm going to be waffling. I don't feel like I'm going to be
0:11:12kind of, I don't have time for digressions or for sort of issues like that. And it was something
0:11:18that I felt like from a time commitment perspective, I could do that. I wasn't like taking
0:11:22on two hours a week of work. I was taking on 15 minutes of work a week, which is way less,
0:11:28way easier. And I mean, the same thing when you and I sort of took on Under the Radar. It's like,
0:11:32okay, this is twice as long, but it's still only half an hour of recording. It's much less of a
0:11:38commitment of time and energy and effort. And I think it really helps to both to get started.
0:11:42And then probably moreover is once the kind of initial excitement phase of starting a new
0:11:48project kind of wears off, it's like, how likely are you to continue it and sustain it going
0:11:54forward? And by making it constrained in format or length, it's much easier for us to keep doing this
0:11:59because it's not a huge investment of our time. And when life gets complicated or our projects
0:12:04get complicated or whatever is happening in our life, it might be tricky if we were trying to find
0:12:10two hours to record together, that can get complicated. But if we're just trying to find
0:12:13half an hour, I can always find half an hour in my schedule. And so it's much easier to do that.
0:12:20And so from a creator perspective, I think having those constraints to the length of a show has been
0:12:25really helpful there. And I will say too, it don't feel like too if you ever were starting something
0:12:30that has a length constraint, that you are forever bound by it in a way that is completely immovable.
0:12:35It is important to be respectful of the format and give people what they want. But
0:12:41in the developing perspective days, I had a couple episodes that were interviews,
0:12:45and those didn't have the time constraint. And if we ever did an interview on this show,
0:12:49I know Craig Federici just did a great interview with Federico Vittucci on App Stories. And it's
0:12:56like, whoever got one of those, if we ever get a call from Apple and they say, "Hey, we want to do
0:13:00an interview on your show," it might not be 30 minutes long. And the feedback I always got was
0:13:05like, "That's fine." As long as you respect the core, that's a different show. The people who are
0:13:11interested in your actual show, your normal show, are probably going to be interested in that. So
0:13:15don't feel like you are forever bound by those rules. But having those rules is so helpful for
0:13:20getting started and then for keeping it going and focusing your mind as you're going.
0:13:25Matthew Feeney I like how you pointed out that you can change
0:13:29if you need to, or if it's best for the show. My wife does a podcast called Somehow I Manage,
0:13:34which is a podcast about the TV show The Office. And initially, it's a rewatch show, so one episode
0:13:41per episode of The Office. And initially, they wanted to keep the podcast the same length or
0:13:47shorter as the episodes, which are like 22 minutes long. And it turns out 22 minutes is really tight
0:13:53for two people discussing the ins and outs of a TV episode. And so they tried it as a constraint,
0:13:59but it just wasn't good for the format. It wasn't good for the content. And so they expanded it a
0:14:03little bit. They went to like 30 or 35 or 45 minutes, and it's fine. So like the constraints,
0:14:08you don't have to stick with them forever if they don't work. It's like my whole thing with the
0:14:12magazine not having a setting screen. I'm not going to have a setting screen. And it turns out
0:14:15that was a terrible idea, and I needed one, and it was better. So you can start with constraints,
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0:16:02Our thanks to Linode for their support of this show and all of Relay FM.
0:16:05Michael: So I think what you just said, though, about the magazine is a really useful kind of
0:16:11like transition point for us, though. Like talking so right, moving on a little bit from talking
0:16:15about podcasts and to turning this into a bit more about apps. Like there are so many things that you
0:16:20can do in the creation of an app that are constraints that you can put on yourself.
0:16:24And I think many of them have the same benefits that constraining the length of a podcast
0:16:29has. And like your example there of constraining yourself to say that you're not going to have a
0:16:35setting screen. Like while ultimately, like down the road, that ended up not being necessarily the
0:16:40right thing for the app, I imagine in the creation of it, it's a very useful tool because it means
0:16:47that you forced yourself to think like, "How can I structure this so that it doesn't need one?
0:16:51So that how can I anticipate what choices my user would want and design around that?" Or prevent you
0:16:58potentially from going down lots of rabbit holes and giving all these kind of like these bifurcations
0:17:03you can have in your design where it's like, "Well, what if the user wants it to be this way
0:17:07and this way?" Then you end up building both. Like by saying to yourself, "I'm only going to
0:17:13sort of build, I'm going to build the app such that it doesn't need a setting screen."
0:17:16You force yourself to make a bunch of choices that maybe aren't in the long term what you want,
0:17:22you know, the best thing for the longevity of the app, but almost certainly for the creation of it.
0:17:27Like I suspect the magazine app as it was, was better for not having a setting screen to start
0:17:33with. Like I feel like that's the kind of thing where these constraints that you put on yourself
0:17:37can just be these really helpful tools for focusing your mind and kind of giving you something.
0:17:42Like in some ways I almost kind of think about it like it's hard to push something if you're not on
0:17:50a solid, like if you don't have something to push against. Like if you just push on one thing but
0:17:55you have nothing on the other side of you, like you really can't move it nearly as much as you
0:17:59can if you can push on both sides. Like you need this anchoring to kind of be working against and
0:18:05that really helps you to move things in real life. But in some ways, if you don't have any
0:18:10constraints, if you are just like this free and open thing, then you're up in space and you're
0:18:15trying to push something. Like that doesn't really work. You have nothing to push against. If you
0:18:18imagine an astronaut floating in space and he's trying to push something away from him, sort of,
0:18:23but it doesn't work as well. Like you really need to have something behind you that's a limit that
0:18:28is like, "Okay, this is somewhere that I'm stuck against and I'm working against and I have this
0:18:34constraint." And whatever that is, in some ways we have a whole list of things we can talk about, but
0:18:40you need to have something. You need to have some kind of constraint that you're putting on yourself,
0:18:43otherwise you're just going to be spinning around in space and that sounds awful.
0:18:47But also, the constraint often represents a goal. If you kind of step up a level,
0:18:54like my thing with the magazine, I didn't want a setting screen. Why? Step up a level. I didn't
0:18:58want a setting screen because I didn't want it to be too complicated. So even after I gave in on the
0:19:03setting screen thing, I can still try to achieve the goal, the idea of, "Well, don't make it
0:19:11complicated." So, okay, I needed to have a setting screen after all. It ended up being more complicated
0:19:16to try not to have one. But the idea of not making it complicated still guided me in the design of
0:19:23what I had to do to break that constraint and I still kept it very simple and tried to have
0:19:27very few options, keep everything very clear, keep it mostly not having options, mostly not
0:19:34having settings, and just have the bare minimum I can get away with. And the similar thing,
0:19:38like we were saying with podcasts, if you're constraining your length, what you're really
0:19:41saying is, "I want to make a tight show. I want it to be concise and fast-paced and dense and
0:19:47respectful of people's time." You can still do that as your guiding principle, even if you have
0:19:53to change or break your stated time constraint or your time goal. And so the same thing with apps.
0:19:58Like, if you constrain yourself and you say, "Okay, this is not going to be an app that I slowly work
0:20:05on as a labor of love that I'm going to pour my entire soul into for six years before anybody
0:20:10sees it. Instead, I'm going to make a small, simple app. I'm going to do it fairly quickly.
0:20:17I'm not going to tackle any big, hairy features. I'm just going to make it small and tight and
0:20:23not a big commitment, not a big investment." That is a very useful guiding goal, and that applies
0:20:29to so many things. That can apply mostly to your timeline. If you say, "I want to make an app in
0:20:35the next month. One month from now, I want it to be in the store." So what does that mean? So,
0:20:40"This week I have to do this. This week I have to be here. This week I have to have reached this goal,"
0:20:45et cetera. And even that can be a very useful constraint, even if it's a little bit broad or
0:20:50a little bit squishy. Having any kind of constraint can really help a lot.
0:20:55Jonathon
0:20:57I think timeline is probably the most powerful constraint for a new project. Having a deadline
0:21:03focuses the mind and helps you be ruthless in a good way of deciding, "Should I do this feature?
0:21:10Should I not do this feature?" Especially, I will say, as an independent developer,
0:21:16it's the hardest thing, deciding and holding yourself accountable to a deadline.
0:21:21Because there is no one outside of me, there's no external force who's telling me that you have to
0:21:26ship by this day. That's why in all of my apps, I tend to have this point where I literally will
0:21:32take a big piece of paper and I write, "No more new features," and then I draw a really terrible
0:21:37crude picture of a ship, and I stick it to my iMac and I say, "I'm done." I've had to do this with
0:21:44Calzones, I did this with WatchSmith, and I'll stick it to my computer, and then from that point
0:21:49on, I'm done. I've hit my time limit, and all I can do is work on screenshots and description and
0:21:57last bit of testing and stuff like that, but I'm done with features. But I have to impose that on
0:22:02myself. I have to give myself the constraint and then hold myself accountable to it, because
0:22:07otherwise it's so natural and easy to be like, "Oh, the app would be better if I did this. Oh,
0:22:11the app would be better if I did that." But not having any constraint there, you'll just keep
0:22:16meandering around forever and you'll never actually get anywhere. You very quickly hit a
0:22:21point that you're getting diminishing returns on the viability of the app, or you're inventing the
0:22:28features that you think people will want, but in reality, people might not want at all. They might
0:22:33want something completely different, and you're building this app for this imaginary person who
0:22:36doesn't exist. Some of the things, though, that you can also think of with constraints. I was trying
0:22:41to think of what are some of the timeline. So timeline is the biggest one that I can think of.
0:22:46The next biggest constraint is probably platform. What are you building this for?
0:22:50And so maybe this is to start with, the app only is on the iPhone or is only on the iPad or the Mac
0:22:57or the watch or whatever it is. You can constrain the number of platforms that you go to, because
0:23:04in the modern world of Apple development, there are a lot of platforms that you can
0:23:09now address with, in theory, the same code. And that's a very, the same code has the biggest
0:23:16quotes around it you could imagine. There's a couple asterisks and daggers on that.
0:23:20There's a lot of asterisk footnotes, those double daggers. There's tremendous caveats around that,
0:23:26because in theory, you could address the Mac, the iPhone, iPad, tvOS, and the watch, all with
0:23:37the same Swift UI code, probably, or at least mostly the same. But that's not true.
0:23:41And what you're doing, and while ultimately that might be the case, constraining the number of
0:23:46platforms you address at the beginning is probably a useful, helpful thing. Because if you launch on
0:23:53one platform and it's successful, there's almost certainly going to be a desire for it to go to
0:23:58those other platforms. And then there's a reason for it to go to those other platforms, because
0:24:01other people have asked for it and your customers want it, rather than just doing this work without
0:24:06necessarily even knowing that it's going to get there. And another thing you can constrain is the
0:24:10feature set. You can just say, "These are the features I'm going to start with," which is very
0:24:15loosely related to timeline. Those two things tend to work in opposition to each other. But
0:24:20for some people, I could imagine that just the features, thinking of something as a feature
0:24:24rather than as time, or probably moreover, if your time is not something that you have
0:24:29as much control over, like if this is a nights and weekend project, and the time it takes to get
0:24:34it done is very variable based on your day job and your life more generally, but saying, "I'm only
0:24:40going to ship with this set of features," that could be a useful constraint you put on yourself.
0:24:45You could constrain the audience for an application. Many apps can have many different
0:24:53uses. You can sometimes even just as simple as you could say, "Is this for a professional use,
0:24:59or is this for a more casual use?" Like when I made a calendar app, you could make that focused
0:25:05on one or the other, and the features and the direction you take will be different. And if you
0:25:10try and do both, it's going to be difficult, both from a time perspective and a design perspective.
0:25:16You could also constrain the languages and the locales that you support. So this is like,
0:25:20"Do you support localization? How much are you testing right-to-left languages?" and all these
0:25:25things, which may or may not be important for you and your app, and based on the audience question
0:25:29you just answered for yourself, but that's something that you have to keep in mind.
0:25:33And then the last one that came to mind to me was you can constrain the design approach you're
0:25:39taking to an application. Are you trying to just ship something that looks like native iOS or
0:25:46native watchOS or whatever that platform might be, or are you trying to do something completely
0:25:51custom and totally new? They both have value, and they're both useful in different ways,
0:25:57but if you can constrain that and you say, "I'm not going to subclass UI button in this app,"
0:26:05that's a powerful constraint that would dramatically change the number of ways that
0:26:09you would build things. Or you're never going to subclass UI table view cell, or whatever it is.
0:26:14You can give yourself a constraint that might be useful to say that you're going to keep it as
0:26:19simple as possible, to start with at least. Yeah, that kind of thing. The design and UI stuff,
0:26:26that can be such a rabbit hole. What's the term out of rabbit hole, right? What's the
0:26:32massive cost sink? Anyway, whatever the term is that everyone else who's listening is screaming
0:26:40at me that I can't remember right now. There is so much potential for massive time loss and
0:26:48just infinite possible investment in UI customization. And also, you mentioned earlier,
0:26:53a feature set. A lot of it gets down to, do you want your app to have settings or not? Do you want
0:26:58it to be opinionated and say, "I'm going to make a podcast app that appeals only to people who want
0:27:05to stream full-time, and only to people who want to listen and organize in this way, and who only
0:27:11need this feature X, Y, and Z," stuff like that. You can have that kind of constraint. Or you can
0:27:15say more broadly, "Do I want my app to be broad appeal or narrow appeal? If I'm making a to-do
0:27:21app, do I want to make it super customizable and powerful so that everybody with their
0:27:27needs for to-do apps can potentially configure my app to satisfy their needs? Or do I want to
0:27:33make something that does something one way and appeal to the people who want it done exactly
0:27:37that way and possibly nobody else?" Certainly, it's a little bit different with apps versus
0:27:42podcasts and stuff like that, because apps have updates. So one thing you can do that's a useful
0:27:47thing is start. Get your version one out there, your minimum viable product, whatever you want
0:27:52to call it. Get your version one out there that is significantly constrained, and then use the
0:27:57feedback and economics that result from that to decide what to do next. But certainly,
0:28:02a lot of these constraints are significantly more valuable for that 1.0.
0:28:06Yeah. I think, too, the underlining lesson that I think hopefully I'm trying to communicate this
0:28:13episode is the sense that you just need to be thoughtful upfront about what constraints you
0:28:19have, honest about them, choose which ones make sense for you. And I think being intentional and
0:28:25conscious about that is where so much of the value comes. It isn't that a 15-minute podcast or an app
0:28:31without a feature setting screen is intrinsically better. But if it's the thing that you want to
0:28:36build and you've made a conscious choice that that's what you're going to build and that's what
0:28:40you're aiming at, that's where the power comes from. That's where you get this extra speed boost
0:28:47that lets you be more effective, make a better product, make a better show. Whatever it might be
0:28:52is because it was a choice that you had and that you're holding yourself to and it guides you along
0:28:57when you inevitably bump into the things on the side of the path that is always going to happen
0:29:02when you start something, whether that be an app or a show or any creative endeavor.
0:29:06Yeah, and it also helps you avoid the things that you might do speculatively, thinking that you will
0:29:12need to do them. A lot of them you don't need to, right? And so by not even doing a lot of them at
0:29:18first and just kind of testing the waters without doing a lot of the optional stuff, you'll find out
0:29:23just from feedback and stuff, you'll find out like which of those should I actually do and which of
0:29:27them is nobody asking for. Sure. So thanks for listening everybody and we'll talk to you in two
0:29:33weeks. Bye!