0:00:00Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.
0:00:04I'm Marco Arment.
0:00:05And I'm David Smith. Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.
0:00:09So I hear that in a huge turn of events that you are going to launch a new app pretty soon?
0:00:15And that it's possibly an Apple Watch app?
0:00:17It is a new app, and it is an Apple Watch app.
0:00:21I mean, it is a wild turn from my past history and the last five years of my life
0:00:27where this may have been something that I have done more than a dozen times,
0:00:32but in a wild turn of events, it is something that I'm doing.
0:00:37And so it's not quite out from this we're recording now, so I'm not going to--
0:00:41There will be a few little things, like the name of the app, that I'm not quite ready to share yet.
0:00:45But my next app is going to be--surprise, surprise--an Apple Watch-related app.
0:00:51And at a high level, it's probably useful to just kind of get a sense.
0:00:53So the app is about making a super high level of customization
0:00:59for the complications that you display on your watch.
0:01:03So it's this very kind of wide set of a lot of different complications
0:01:06with a lot of different configurations and ways to kind of configure them
0:01:10and schedule them and do them.
0:01:13And then additionally, like on the watch side, it's kind of a way for me to combine
0:01:18a lot of what I've learned from a lot of different other apps over the years
0:01:22that I've built on the watch and kind of put them together into one place.
0:01:27And the most amazing part of it is I got to use SwiftUI for this,
0:01:31which I got to say, just sort of side note to the topic that we're going to get into
0:01:35for the most of this show, but SwiftUI on the watch is amazing.
0:01:40It is transformative to the experience as a developer of making watch apps.
0:01:45It's quirky, it's weird, there's some things about SwiftUI that I don't like,
0:01:50but ultimately it's allowed me to do things that I just couldn't do before.
0:01:56So it's been really fun to be able to kind of explore that, play with it,
0:01:59and see what's possible or even just to have--
0:02:03it's nice when I'm developing to have this sense of like,
0:02:05"Huh, it would be nice if I could do this little effect or have this little animation,"
0:02:09or "It'd be cool if I did this little thing."
0:02:11And in SwiftUI, the answer is usually, "It's possible.
0:02:14It might be tricky, but it's possible."
0:02:16Whereas with WatchKit, the answer was often like, "That's not possible.
0:02:19You're stuck. There's nothing you can do.
0:02:22You've reached the end of a road."
0:02:24And so it's really kind of fun to have that open as a possibility for this new app.
0:02:30But I think the main thing that I kind of thought would be an interesting topic
0:02:33for the show and for us to talk about is a little bit of the history
0:02:38and the economics of watch development,
0:02:41because I think it's entering into kind of an interesting place
0:02:45now that we have SwiftUI, and then I feel like the platform itself
0:02:48has fairly and relatively matured.
0:02:51And the devices have sort of seemed to have settled down reasonably well.
0:02:54Like the Series 4 and the Series 5 watches are very similar.
0:02:57They sort of have a lot in common.
0:03:00And visually, I feel like we're in probably about the place
0:03:03that the Apple Watch is going to be for a little bit.
0:03:05Like I doubt that we're going to see quite as many kind of radical changes
0:03:10like from the early watches to the Series 4 and 5,
0:03:14where the screen got a lot bigger and kind of went more edge-to-edge.
0:03:17There's another thing that's funny on the phone is that we keep having
0:03:21these bigger and bigger devices, and for a while that was this,
0:03:24like how big or how many pixels is Apple going to put on a phone?
0:03:27But on the watch, I feel like there's a limit there
0:03:30because it's being strapped to your wrist.
0:03:32And so my guess is we're kind of settling into a place where
0:03:35this is what Apple Watch is and this is what Apple Watch development is.
0:03:39But the fundamental question, and certainly for someone who wants to do this
0:03:43as part of their profession, is like, can you make a living?
0:03:46Is it viable from an economics perspective to make Apple Watch apps?
0:03:53And I think the history of this has been very sort of telling in some ways,
0:03:58that there was an initial period where Apple first announced Apple Watch apps.
0:04:02They first came out.
0:04:03There's a lot of people who added Apple Watch apps to their apps.
0:04:06Even big companies like Instagram had an Apple Watch app in their app for a while.
0:04:11And then there was this period where they kind of just kind of all started to fall away
0:04:15and there were fewer and fewer Apple Watch apps.
0:04:17There was fewer and fewer people who were working on them.
0:04:20And I think there was a variety of technical reasons,
0:04:22but I think there was also some economic reasons for that,
0:04:25that I think it was a difficult platform for a lot of people to want to invest time and energy into
0:04:34because the economic case just wasn't as good.
0:04:37And maybe that's not the case necessarily for like an Instagram.
0:04:40Probably they were making it because it got them on the stage for Apple.
0:04:46It was important, but the actual use case for it or the limitations of WatchKit
0:04:52meant that that wasn't really there.
0:04:55And it's just kind of this interesting sort of back and forth.
0:04:58But I think we're entering into an interesting place now with it.
0:05:01But it's just still kind of a funny place.
0:05:05So I took a look. These are my latest statistics for the Apple Watch.
0:05:13And the Apple Watch for Pedometer++, which is the app for which I have the broadest reach,
0:05:18it has about a 17% Apple Watch adoption rate, which is good.
0:05:26Like 17% of the people who have iPhones, if that's actually anywhere vaguely close to the number,
0:05:31is a pretty good thing. But that's still relatively niche.
0:05:34That's the number of people who are probably still running iOS 12.
0:05:39It's meaningful but small.
0:05:42And so it's small.
0:05:45And so if you're thinking of taking an economics question, you start to get into,
0:05:49"Well, is it worth doing things? Is it worth making this app? Is there a market there for it?"
0:05:54I know you've run into this a lot, Marco, with the amount of effort you should put into Overcast's Watch app.
0:05:59It's like, how big of an audience is there for this?
0:06:04Is it worth and justified the time?
0:06:07And obviously it's less of an economic question directly for you, but it's kind of a weird platform.
0:06:12I get the impression for you of, "Is this worth investing in? Is this something that you actually want to do?"
0:06:17I think what we saw, as you said, at first every iOS company had to have a Watch app,
0:06:22and then many of them quickly dropped off.
0:06:24And I think the reason why is just because we thought, and I think Apple thought too,
0:06:28no one really knew, but I think we thought at the beginning this was going to be a general app platform similar to the phone.
0:06:34It turned out not to be. It turned out that for lots of reasons, some of them technical,
0:06:38some of them software, some of them just the reality of how people ended up using this device,
0:06:43the Watch wasn't and hasn't become a general computing platform.
0:06:48It has become a very specified role-based platform where in certain roles it's almost essential to people.
0:06:56Things like notifications and fitness, it's very strong in those areas.
0:07:00And in other roles, things like reading the news, checking your email,
0:07:05there are other things where people just don't do that on their watch.
0:07:08But we didn't know that when it launched.
0:07:10People tried to make guesses about what people would use the watch for, what it would be good at.
0:07:14A lot of those guesses ended up being wrong.
0:07:16And that's not necessarily a bad thing, it just wasn't what we expected.
0:07:19And so that's why you see these massive shakeouts and everything.
0:07:22But now, I think it totally makes sense to invest in a watch app and a good watch experience,
0:07:29including some notification options and stuff like that, for some apps.
0:07:34And for other apps it doesn't. My app happens to be one of them.
0:07:36My numbers are actually somewhat close to yours. Mine are a little higher.
0:07:41In percentage of watch people I have about 20%, I think, based on my current numbers.
0:07:48About 20% of my users have an Apple Watch paired.
0:07:52And that's not bad. That's higher than I would have guessed a couple of years ago, where I'd be.
0:07:58So it's a pretty high number, but at the same time, it's hard for me to make a good watch app.
0:08:05Which puts me in a frustrating place.
0:08:07And I think this is the place a lot of app makers find themselves, where the demand might be there.
0:08:12But, oh, and also I should clarify, about 20% of my users have Apple Watches.
0:08:18Not all of them use the watch app.
0:08:21The number of those who use the watch app is lower.
0:08:24And then the number of those who actually use the watch app for more than just looking at the status of playback
0:08:31is even lower than that.
0:08:33So I do keep analytics of what percentage of my users actually interact with the watch app.
0:08:38Actually hit the play or pause button on it, or hit track skip, or whatever.
0:08:43What percentage of people are actually really using it as opposed to just glancing at it?
0:08:48And that number is much lower.
0:08:50And I think that's probably the pattern that a lot of apps might see.
0:08:54You might have people who say they want a watch app, actually install the watch app,
0:08:59but then when it comes to actual usage, they just don't really use it.
0:09:03Because maybe it isn't as useful as they thought it would be.
0:09:06Or maybe they have other ways to satisfy those needs.
0:09:08Or maybe they need to take out their phone every time to do something else anyway.
0:09:11Like, you know, Slack for instance.
0:09:14Or any kind of messaging app.
0:09:16They show notifications on the watch, but what would they do with a watch app?
0:09:20I can't respond. Any time I want to respond, I just want to take my phone out and respond.
0:09:23So there's so many apps like that where it makes sense to maybe show notifications
0:09:30and maybe a basic status screen on the watch, but not much else.
0:09:34Whereas there are some applications, like what you've been developing for the last few years,
0:09:39that they live on the watch.
0:09:41That having them on the phone is kind of nonsensical or pointless.
0:09:45And that it's really like the meat of it or the entire thing is the watch app.
0:09:51And I think it just isn't all apps.
0:09:54And so it's a specialized thing, and for those specialties, it's amazing.
0:10:00So, yeah. I think the assumption that everyone should make a watch app has been long since disproven.
0:10:07But what's left can be a strong market.
0:10:11Yeah, and I think this is the fascinating thing from my own experience.
0:10:15I sort of tallied up the number of watch apps that I've shipped and launched.
0:10:20So this is beyond, I mean, I have probably twice as many than this prototypes or things that I've come up with.
0:10:25But I've shipped and launched 14 Apple Watch apps in the last five years.
0:10:30Which is a lot.
0:10:33It's certainly more than when I sat down to make the list, I kept being surprised.
0:10:37It was like, "Oh, wait, no, I did do a watch app for that. Oh, no, I did do a watch app for that."
0:10:41And I just kind of kept coming.
0:10:44And I would say most of those kind of didn't go anywhere.
0:10:47And I think many of them were in those early days.
0:10:49There's that early period where I was just coming up with things that I could think of I could do on the watch.
0:10:55Rather than necessarily potentially that I should do on the watch.
0:10:58And I think learning to know the difference between could and should on watchOS has been kind of a really interesting journey.
0:11:05I think both for Apple as well as for third-party developers.
0:11:09But there's definitely been a couple that have kind of hit on.
0:11:11And a couple that continue to have some legs.
0:11:16And for most of them, they didn't go anywhere to start with.
0:11:20And the ones that have had the most attachment so far have typically been the health and fitness-related things.
0:11:29And often, honestly, the ones where the primary experience is on the phone.
0:11:35And the watch aspect of it is important but isn't necessarily essential.
0:11:40So I'm thinking of like Sleepless Plus as an example where it's like the most people's interaction with that app is actually on the iPhone.
0:11:47There is an Apple Watch app.
0:11:48And it does, you know, you can do things on the watch.
0:11:51And it requires a watch to collect the data that it uses.
0:11:54But it's not -- its primary experience is for most users is actually on the phone.
0:12:00And that's an experience that it's a pattern that I've seen kind of many times that it can be a useful add-on.
0:12:05It can be a useful thing.
0:12:06But if you want to actually have a standalone sort of watch experience, it's really tricky.
0:12:12And I think the market for those kind of standalone watch experiences is where like things get really interesting for me as I'm kind of embarking on this journey for like making an app that is really focused on the watch.
0:12:22And is all about the watch's experience because it's just harder, I think, to find a business model and to find a justification that kind of works for that.
0:12:31Because like, you know, the other apps like C++ and Podometer, like their primary sort of business case is that they are, you know, sort of free with ads with an in-app purchase to hide the ads.
0:12:45That kind of classic model that I -- in general I've kind of settled on and I kind of like in that it allows you to make something free so you have kind of a broader audience.
0:12:55It rewards use because the more they use it, the more they see the ads in it so that it kind of has a nice virtuous cycle.
0:13:02And if people don't like ads or want to support the app, they can, you know, buy an in-app purchase and everyone wins.
0:13:10Like it's a great model.
0:13:11But the unfortunate thing is like on the watch, that model doesn't really work.
0:13:14Like if you make an app free, it's just free.
0:13:16Because I mean showing an ad on the Apple Watch feels like -- that does not feel like something that would work or be scalable.
0:13:24Like this screen is tiny.
0:13:25Can you imagine having like a little like -- I don't even know, like a little 20 pixel banner on the bottom of your app or something?
0:13:32That would be awful.
0:13:33Well also like what ad content would even fit there?
0:13:36What would the like action path of that ad be?
0:13:39Like if somebody wanted to respond to the ad, what does that look like on the watch?
0:13:44Do they go to a web page somehow?
0:13:46Like do you text it to them later or mess with you?
0:13:49And then imagine like, you know, again this whole like most personal device ever thing that Apple pushed.
0:13:55Wearing an ad is I think another level than just having an ad on an app on your phone.
0:14:02You know?
0:14:03Like I don't see a lot of people wanting to really do that.
0:14:06I mean some wouldn't care.
0:14:08It's like for five minutes of every hour, your complication shows an ad.
0:14:11Yeah, right.
0:14:12It's like, come on, it's like 95% of the time it's showing you what you want to see and then 5% it's an ad.
0:14:18How is this a bad idea?
0:14:20Yeah, yeah.
0:14:21That's not going to work on the watch so much.
0:14:24At least it shouldn't.
0:14:25It shouldn't.
0:14:26I mean if someone wants to give it a try, like more power to them.
0:14:29But that doesn't seem to work.
0:14:32And what's tricky like from an economics perspective is it's like free with ads is such a like a mainstay of what we do.
0:14:39Of iOS development.
0:14:40That it's like it is such a primary business model for it that I feel like it's tricky that that is just not really.
0:14:47It's not, whether it's practically, whether it's theoretically available on the watch, it is not a good solution on the watch.
0:14:53And so instead what we have is like the classic, well you can do paid up front.
0:14:58Which is fine.
0:15:01And up until watchOS 6.2 is kind of the best we could do.
0:15:04Because 6.2 we finally got in at purchase.
0:15:07Finally.
0:15:08We waited two points revisions.
0:15:10And six major OS's.
0:15:12Sure, but we didn't have fully independent.
0:15:15Well, five major OS's.
0:15:16We didn't have fully independent watch apps until watchOS 6.
0:15:19So we got it in 6.2.
0:15:21But before it was only paid up front.
0:15:23And like paid up front is a really hard market.
0:15:27Like I think, like my experience with Geneva Moon.
0:15:30Which is my only fully independent watch app that I've launched previously.
0:15:34Like it did well, it did fine.
0:15:37But it made a few thousand dollars.
0:15:39Which is nice and like it was a relatively small investment of effort.
0:15:45And so it kind of worked out.
0:15:47But kind of the impression I get from that app is that.
0:15:50It's a hard thing to convince someone.
0:15:53Like browsing in the watchOS app store.
0:15:56To hit buy and pay for something.
0:16:01Because it's just not a place that feels as comfortable.
0:16:05And you can certainly download Embryo in the iOS app store too.
0:16:08But I mean in general paid up front is just really hard.
0:16:10Because you have to make a choice that they want your app.
0:16:18Before they've seen your app.
0:16:20And back in the old days of the app store everyone wanted free trials.
0:16:25Like it's still that same problem of like.
0:16:27How do you convince someone that this is going to be something they want.
0:16:29You have to make a choice.
0:16:31At the point where they know the least about your app.
0:16:34They have to make a choice whether they want to buy it or not.
0:16:36And so it's just not a great model for there either.
0:16:41And I think too like paid up front is tricky.
0:16:43Because it doesn't let you kind of capitalize on the people who really care about your app.
0:16:51And really really want it potentially.
0:16:53Because you want to probably have your price low enough.
0:16:56That you can kind of get somewhat casual people still interested in it.
0:17:01And still using it.
0:17:03But there's probably a much narrower group within that.
0:17:06Who would be willing to pay you even more money than just like a $2.99 or $1.99 upfront price.
0:17:13But you can't really do that in a paid up front model.
0:17:16So like I found that that one doesn't actually work particularly well either.
0:17:20And I've tried it for like my workout app.
0:17:23Workouts++ was paid up front for a while.
0:17:26Was free for a while.
0:17:28Like for a while I just gave it away because I wanted it in the world.
0:17:31But it's like in no case did it ever really find itself like a strong economic footing in any of those business models.
0:17:39Like there's just not enough interest.
0:17:41Or the interest that there is isn't enough to kind of like overcome the free to pay wall that you kind of have to deal with.
0:17:50And so in all cases I feel like watch, the economics of watch development are really tricky.
0:17:55But you know I do have a solution for this.
0:17:57Or at least I hope to.
0:17:59I can probably talk about after we talk about something that we do like right?
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0:19:36So I'm curious before you get on to what you're actually doing here.
0:19:40I'm curious, has the introduction of the App Store last summer on the watch made any noticeable difference for you?
0:19:48It's a slightly tricky thing to measure in terms of its, like, I think the reality, I mean the short answer is yes, but not dramatic, but meaningful.
0:20:01Maybe it's like, I don't know, it's kind of in that middle ground where there's a way if you go into your sales reports in App Store Connect, you can pull up the source or that is essentially like the source device of a purchase or download.
0:20:17And if I go in there, there's a way to see essentially which ones I think came from the watch App Store.
0:20:23It says watchOS, and so the only thing I can imagine is that this is the watch App Store, but there's not actually like said anywhere explicitly as far as I can tell.
0:20:31And, you know, for pedometer and Sleepless Plus, I definitely have seen, like, you know, it's like something like, you know, maybe like 10% of my downloads on some days will come from that.
0:20:44And it's usually, you know, coincides with if the app is being featured in that App Store, because I think that App Store is very much, you know, like, really it shows like three apps at a time or four apps at a time in a prominent way.
0:20:58And so if you're one of those, and someone happens to be there and your app happens to be free, then it seems certainly like a tool for discovery.
0:21:07I don't think like, I don't think I have a good way of knowing if people are searching for my apps and then finding them in that App Store because searching on the watchOS App Store is kind of a complicated journey that the user has to go on.
0:21:21So it isn't necessarily quite as strong there. But I will say that it does seem like, you know, the App Store is definitely being opened.
0:21:28And I do happen to be fortunate enough to be featured there, that while you're featured, you know, it can account for some a meaningful and measurable amount of downloads that it isn't something that is completely kind of like falling off into nothingness.
0:21:43I suspect that this will, it's an area that will, you know, sort of have a slow growth over time, especially as the watch becomes more and more independent, that the App Store and that being a place that people think to go to get an app might increase.
0:22:01And if it is now, and if you say it is, you know, on a good day 10%, like that still seems meaningful. If not like, you know, it's not like, oh my goodness, it's totally overrun my iOS App Store downloads. That's where everyone's getting my apps now.
0:22:15It's like, I don't expect that to ever be the case. But like, it's meaningful. I'm glad it's there. And I think it's hopefully just like the start of that, of like that training and that experience for customers that that's where they go.
0:22:27That's great. Honestly, that's those numbers are significantly better than what I would have guessed.
0:22:32Yeah, which I mean, that was surprised too. And it's one of those like, it's coming from like a weird reported in App Store Connect. So like, I hope I'm interpreting this data right. But it seems like that's that is where it's coming.
0:22:44So it's, I'm hopeful that's actually sort of the start of something new rather than kind of the just blip or a misunderstanding something there.
0:22:55Cool.
0:22:56So, I guess all of the like the economics questions and things ultimately kind of lead me to think that, ultimately, I think if you want to be a sustainable watch app, I think the reality is, like you have to be a subscription.
0:23:10And subscriptions are kind of meaning they're a hot topic in iOS development recently, where, you know, it's Apple seems to be pushing for them, a lot of apps are kind of shifting towards them, there's some reluctance and resilience sort of, you know, negative feedback that a lot of times, you know, in an app, especially when an app switches to subscription, it can often be really problematic.
0:23:32And, you know, users can be upset. But in this case, like I, I feel good about the fact that I have tried every other for every other possible approach, and none of them have proved viable.
0:23:46And so it seems the appropriate thing to try. And I think for certain types of apps on the watch, I feel like a subscription makes perfect sense, especially because subscriptions often that are associated with like accessing data or pulling information, which you know, it's so like, watch this, my new app includes a lot of, you know, different complications of different kinds, including things like weather apps, or like weather data that you can display in a complication.
0:24:15And like something like that is only viable in the context of a subscription, because I've made a weather app before, and ultimately, I had to pull it from the store, because the economics didn't balance out where my data costs were exceeding my sort of new user income.
0:24:29And it's just like, I was paying, you know, paying every month for the privilege of having this app, which was not a viable thing. And so a subscription is the obvious answer for a situation like that, where, you know, if people want to access weather data, that they pay for that weather data on a regular basis.
0:24:44And that just sort of nicely balances itself out. It hopefully also allows like the, you know, you, my hope for this app, and it's a niche in the sense of like, if you have to want you to have an have an Apple Watch and then want to make it more custom to be able to have more control over what your complications look like, to have more control over the aesthetics of that or want, you know, Apple Watch experiences that are more customizable or unique or specialized than, you know, just like the built in workouts that you're doing.
0:25:13Or just like the built in workouts app, for example, like I have a whole bunch of different workout modes. And if you're interested in heart rate training, or intervals, or different kind of metric displays, like I have those for you. And if you care about them, that's great. But most people probably still use just the built in workouts app and like, that's okay.
0:25:29And a subscription seems like a great answer for those kind of people to where if you have like a narrow but passionate and engaged user base, who gives you a regular amount, you know, it gives you a significant amount of money on a regular basis, like you have a business, that's really all you need.
0:25:45Like, I love the thought that a subscription, you know, you only if you only have, say only it's like, if you're able to get a few 1000 people to be subscribers, like you very quickly have a sustainable, like justifiable business.
0:26:01And the concept of getting, you know, hundreds of 1000s of people, we kind of daunting and scary, but getting a couple 1000, like doesn't seem nearly as crazy to me doesn't seem nearly as this intractable hard marketing problem.
0:26:16You just have to like, you can find that few 1000 people who really care about it, who really get what you're trying to do and really are engaged, like you have a business. And so like, that's kind of my hope is that it's for this kind of an app where it's a bit, you know, it is something that is like the normal that the traditional iOS business models just don't really seem to work or be viable, that going subscription, and, you know, appealing to a group of people who hopefully you can kind of you can draw in because it's doing something that's not going to be a good thing.
0:26:45because it's doing something for a device
0:26:47and the way they wish they use the device that they really
0:26:49care about.
0:26:50My hope is that it will work and be justified.
0:26:53But it's certainly an experiment.
0:26:54I expect to report back under the radar in the next couple
0:26:59of weeks after I launch this app, hopefully next week,
0:27:01and kind of get a sense of, is that true?
0:27:04Is it possible to get a couple thousand people who care
0:27:06about watchOS development?
0:27:08And in reality, if they don't, and if I can't,
0:27:10I mean, it could just mean that my app's bad.
0:27:12But it also might just be an indication
0:27:14that as an app platform, it's in kind of an awkward place.
0:27:16Well, and the thing with subscriptions, too,
0:27:18I mean, this applies to any app with subscriptions.
0:27:22As we talked about many times before, it makes a lot of sense.
0:27:24That is a business model that makes a ton of sense given
0:27:27the realities of the market we're in,
0:27:28where the paid up front workflow, purchase flow,
0:27:33and realities of the market are very hostile right now
0:27:35and probably will be for the foreseeable future.
0:27:38You need to get some kind of cheaper free trial upfront
0:27:42before anybody will actually pay anything.
0:27:44And also, people expect updates forever and for free.
0:27:48Nobody wants, or not for free, but without having
0:27:51to buy a new version of the app.
0:27:52Nobody likes the old model of, you've been using
0:27:57so-and-so app 2.0, but it's not compatible
0:28:00with watchOS 7 now, and that's just not gonna work anymore.
0:28:03You gotta now pay us more money all of a sudden
0:28:05for so-and-so app 3.0.
0:28:08That model has a lot of haters and a lot of problems,
0:28:11and subscriptions also have a lot of haters
0:28:12and a lot of problems, but I think subscriptions
0:28:15are a better fit right now for the realities
0:28:17of what people expect and what developers need
0:28:21to stay afloat right now in this world of kind of
0:28:24expected constant infinite maintenance updates.
0:28:28Like, you need constant revenue coming in for that.
0:28:31And so, not everyone likes that, just like not everyone
0:28:34likes the old upgrade pay model.
0:28:36Not everyone will pay, but you don't need everyone to pay.
0:28:40You need some people to pay, and we thought there'd be
0:28:44like subscription fatigue and everything.
0:28:45That hasn't happened, so I think it's okay,
0:28:48and I think some people will be upset about that,
0:28:52just like anybody who ever uses this payment model,
0:28:54but overall, you'll find enough.
0:28:56It'll be fine.
0:28:57- Yeah, and that's my hope, is I think what's interesting
0:28:59with subscription fatigue is it's like individual people
0:29:02have subscription fatigue.
0:29:04The giant marketplace that is iOS and Apple development
0:29:09probably won't in the same way.
0:29:11That like, you know, that's okay.
0:29:13You don't need to appeal to everybody,
0:29:15because the nature of a subscription is your value
0:29:17of each individual person is so much higher,
0:29:20like that you just need a few, and that's my hope,
0:29:23is that if I can find a few, find a few people
0:29:25who really care and who kind of are engaged
0:29:27in what I'm doing, then I have a business,
0:29:29and then I'm off to the races, and like, that's my hope.
0:29:32- Well, good luck.
0:29:33I can't wait to see how it goes,
0:29:34and we'll talk to everybody in two weeks.
0:29:36Thanks for listening.
0:29:37- Bye.
0:29:38[BLANK_AUDIO]