0:00:00Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.
0:00:04I'm Mark O'Arment.
0:00:05And I'm David Smith.
0:00:06Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.
0:00:10So we're recording this on March 18th, 2020, right in the middle of the COVID-19 coronavirus
0:00:15epidemic.
0:00:17And so, and this is, you know, we talked last episode about, we speculated that WVDC would
0:00:23be canceled.
0:00:25It has been officially since then.
0:00:28And we actually don't have much more to say about that this week because we don't actually
0:00:32have any really new information about what Apple's doing instead.
0:00:36It's going to be some kind of online-only program.
0:00:38They made some, you know, some optimistic quotes in their press release about how this
0:00:42is going to be great.
0:00:43And it might be, and we'll see.
0:00:44We'll see what happens there.
0:00:45But we're not really going to talk about that this week because we don't have any new information
0:00:49really.
0:00:51This week we wanted to talk about the ongoing effect of the COVID-19 epidemic and how the
0:00:57entire world is basically shutting down.
0:01:00And what that means for us as developers, as, you know, self-employed business people,
0:01:08how that might affect the market for our apps, how that might affect decisions we make about
0:01:13launching updates or, you know, maybe holding some stuff back for a little while.
0:01:18Maybe certain things might be, you know, wise from a PR perspective to just not do for a
0:01:23while because they might be in poor taste or whatever else.
0:01:27And just kind of how to deal with this as people.
0:01:31Because this is something that I don't think, I mean, you know, we're both old enough now.
0:01:38We remember things like September 11th, certain major natural disasters that have hit.
0:01:45I've never seen anything like this.
0:01:48Have you?
0:01:49No.
0:01:50I mean, certainly not to this scale where I feel like there's, like the nature of most
0:01:56natural disasters is that they impact a particular geography, you know, in a way that is probably
0:02:04more profound than the impact of this in the sense of, you know, when a hurricane comes
0:02:10through or a tornado or an earthquake, like there's a very localized, very intense effect.
0:02:16I've never really experienced something like this where it is so pervasive that it's like
0:02:21it affects everyone all over the world to some degree.
0:02:25And that, I think, is such a different thing.
0:02:30And then, I mean, I've certainly never seen a situation like this where, you know, like
0:02:33all the restaurants are closed and, you know, everyone's sort of instructed to just stay
0:02:38at home and you sort of do your best.
0:02:41And you're in this kind of this weird holding pattern where it's unclear for how long it'll
0:02:49be.
0:02:50Because I think, too, that the uncertainty of that is definitely something that I feel
0:02:53like is fairly unprecedented, where, you know, like the more annual sort of things that force
0:03:00people to stay home, like say, imagine a big blizzard is coming through.
0:03:04You have a reasonable expectation that like, okay, the blizzard is going to happen on a
0:03:08Monday, maybe, you know, none of the roads are plowed for a few days, and then, oh, you
0:03:12know, the major roads are plowed.
0:03:14And then like, after three or four days, everyone can kind of get out of their house and get
0:03:18back to, you know, sort of get back to normal life.
0:03:22And you kind of have that timeline and that expectation in your mind about what this will
0:03:26look like.
0:03:27And even for the biggest storms we've had, like there was one year, you know, I live
0:03:31in the DC area, and we had this one year where we had, I think it was snowmageddon and the
0:03:35snowpocalypse, whatever the local weather people called it, where we had, you know, these two
0:03:39big two foot of snow storms in a row.
0:03:41We're not really very equipped for that.
0:03:43And so we had this big, like, I think for maybe, maybe for about 10 days, I couldn't
0:03:48leave my house, just because like the road that I was on was just completely impassable.
0:03:54And like that was, but it had the, you know, you always have in your mind, it's like,
0:03:57well, eventually, the snow will melt, and eventually the plows will come.
0:04:02And once they do, everything will kind of go back to normal.
0:04:04But what's really weird here is it's like, well, we're kind of all staying home, and
0:04:09we're all doing our best.
0:04:11And we have no idea if this is weeks, if this is months, if this is going to be, you know,
0:04:17the reality going forward for the next year, like, is this going to come in waves where
0:04:22we come and we, you know, sort of, we have periods like where we're supposed to stay
0:04:26home where periods were supposed to go out, like that uncertainty is just so unprecedented.
0:04:31And I think this adds such a dynamic to any kind of decision making you might want to
0:04:36make right now.
0:04:38Yeah, I think, you know, we've, we've been lucky in that during our lifetimes, for
0:04:43the most part, in most places in the world, or at least, you know, places, places that
0:04:47we have lived, you know, the US and Europe, that we haven't had like major wars, or
0:04:53major famines or major illnesses.
0:04:55And so this, you know, really, we've been very fortunate in, you know, when you look
0:05:00at history, this has been a pretty calm, stable time.
0:05:04And so when you look at what we have to do now is we have to adapt to some, you know,
0:05:09temporary but significant instability.
0:05:13And, you know, we don't, we've never really had to prepare for things like this.
0:05:18We've never really had to say like, you know what, what if the world just doesn't
0:05:22really want to be happy or excited about new things or be using new apps for a year?
0:05:28Like that might happen.
0:05:30We don't know.
0:05:31And we've never really had to face that during our careers before.
0:05:36You know, like I think September 11th is the closest that we've come to something like
0:05:40that.
0:05:41But we were, like I was in college, you were too, right?
0:05:44- I was in high school, or just finished high school, I guess.
0:05:47- Right, so like we were a little young for it to affect our professional lives.
0:05:51You know, it certainly affected us personally, but you know, we weren't like operating businesses
0:05:57at that time and making that kind of decision.
0:05:59But in the aftermath of that, a lot of product releases were delayed, a lot of like concerts
0:06:07and sporting events and stuff were canceled or delayed because like nobody was in the
0:06:12mood to have fun and celebrate, basically.
0:06:14And I think we're seeing a lot of that now.
0:06:18Not to the same degree of like, of mourning and sadness.
0:06:23And I don't think that aspect of this will be anywhere near as strong as it was for September
0:06:2811th.
0:06:29But I think that we have to have some similar concerns and considerations of like, you know,
0:06:35is this a good time to do frivolous fun things?
0:06:38Is this a good time to like release a new app or things like that?
0:06:43Or should we kind of hold off and wait?
0:06:46And you can kind of make arguments both ways.
0:06:48You can say, well, you know, this, people need some happiness right now because everyone's
0:06:53stuck in their houses under, you know, self-quarantine or social distancing policies or things like
0:06:58that.
0:06:59You know, we kind of need stuff to make us happy and to give us things to do that we
0:07:04can do in our house.
0:07:06On the other hand, you don't want to appear that you're capitalizing on a pretty big worldwide
0:07:12problem and for many people a tragedy.
0:07:15You know, so I don't know, what's your thought, what's your thinking on this?
0:07:19I mean, I think too there's this fundamental question of like, is this something that we
0:07:25expect to be short-lived or sort of pervasive and ongoing in the long term?
0:07:32Because the more that it is something that is long term and a sort of just like this
0:07:39is the reality for months from now, the more I sort of tend towards the like, we just kind
0:07:46of, we have to kind of keep calm and carry on like at a little bit of it.
0:07:51We keep moving forward because being on hold for just sort of indefinitely, indefinitely
0:07:57is just not realistic or not productive necessarily, that it isn't, to your point, it's like, it's
0:08:04somewhat, it's, while it's certainly, you know, it's a tragic thing for many people,
0:08:07it is, there is less of that sense of that it's, you know, that doing things other than
0:08:14just like worrying about this sort of this faceless fear in the world, that, like, I
0:08:20don't, that's not productive either.
0:08:22Like being able to move forward, being able to keep doing things, you know, and continuing
0:08:27to do our jobs is certainly something that I think is like important both in the sense
0:08:33of establishing a sense of normalcy or about just like not being frozen and being like
0:08:42stuck.
0:08:43And like, I find it certainly, it's been a tricky time to feel focused on work and
0:08:49being motivated and encouraged to do work, but there is certainly a benefit and a positive
0:08:58impact on doing the things that we do normally, even if like having one area of our life that
0:09:03is somewhat more normal, or at least somewhat more like in our control, doing things that
0:09:08we can control.
0:09:11But like the timing side of it is just so mind bending.
0:09:13I mean, like, this is crazy for me, because, I mean, I think I've mentioned a few times
0:09:17on the show, like I am in the late stages of preparing to launch like my next sort of
0:09:23major app.
0:09:25My current, like my plan originally was, I think, to launch April 7th, which is in just
0:09:31the broad, right around three weeks from now, at this point.
0:09:35And like the app is pretty much there.
0:09:37Like I'm in the like bug fix and like getting it ready phase.
0:09:43But it feels really weird to be going into that point with like this strange sense of
0:09:48like, A, is this a good idea from a business perspective?
0:09:52Like is anyone going to pay any attention to a new app?
0:09:56You know, when the news is every, it's like every day there is like level one news in
0:10:02the news.
0:10:03There's tremendous distraction.
0:10:05There's tremendous sort of upheaval and unease.
0:10:09And so from that perspective, like the marketing side, like, is it good?
0:10:12I mean, it's like as a recording, Apple just launched a bunch of new products.
0:10:17And it's going to be in some ways, it's like, it's a funny, I'm sure they've had to deal
0:10:20with the same question of like, is this, are we going to get any amount of the normal publicity
0:10:25or marketing attention that we normally would because there's such a high level of distraction.
0:10:29And then on the business side, like, are people going to be willing to spend, you know, spend
0:10:34money like, or is it a period where people are going to be much more reluctant to, you
0:10:41know, serve any non essential purchase is like, it's much more likely to be put off
0:10:46and delayed.
0:10:48Just as you would kind of expect and is likely prudent in a period of uncertainty, you know,
0:10:53is this something where, you know, you want you kind of want to you want to not necessarily
0:10:56be indulging in confectionary when like, you aren't clear, you know, it's unclear as to
0:11:02how long you're going to need to do things.
0:11:05And certainly, I think, you know, the tech industry is probably one of the industries
0:11:09that is best equipped to weather this financially.
0:11:12But I mean, I got my heart goes out to all the people who have more service jobs or restaurant
0:11:17or those types of positions where, like, if people aren't going out, you're just stuck
0:11:23and your job just disappears until people go out again.
0:11:26So like, from a business perspective, launching something or being like doing something kind
0:11:31of like big work feels really weird.
0:11:36And it's really doubly so because these things take time.
0:11:40And so you have to kind of predict into the future and be like, well, in April, is it
0:11:44going to be a totally different world?
0:11:46Like today, this, you know, we're recording on a Wednesday, like, this Wednesday versus
0:11:50last Wednesday feels like night and day different, like the whole world has completely turned
0:11:56itself around in a week.
0:11:59So like in two weeks, it could have like done a double backflip.
0:12:03And like, we could be back where we are, it could be incredibly worse, like, who knows,
0:12:06who knows?
0:12:07So like trying to plan ahead of that and sort of like do any kind of release planning feels
0:12:11like completely like impossible.
0:12:14Yeah, and I think to the degree, the degree of which this affects you is going to vary
0:12:23greatly based on the types of apps or services that you do.
0:12:29You know, like I just ran overcast numbers and usually, like, I was fearing this could
0:12:35be pretty bad for overcast because typically, the usage, my daily usage of like daily active
0:12:42users, you can clearly see weekends and holidays.
0:12:45You can very clearly see like a typically a Sunday has something like a 18% drop from
0:12:54like a Tuesday.
0:12:56Like the average weekend is, you know, roughly, you know, almost 20% less activity than the
0:13:03weekdays because so many people listen to podcasts on their way to work or during work
0:13:08or during their weekday routines and then the weekends they're doing other things or
0:13:12whatever.
0:13:13So I was afraid very much this could be really bad for overcast.
0:13:16But it turns out so far, it's been about a 7% reduction, which is less than I would have
0:13:23guessed.
0:13:24Like, so my usage is down about 7% across the board.
0:13:27But, you know, an average weekend brings it down 18%.
0:13:31So that's actually, this actually is looking like it's going to be okay for overcast.
0:13:37But things could be radically different.
0:13:39You know, it's like, as you said, like, you know, for certain types of businesses, you
0:13:43know, if you work at a restaurant or in travel or hospitality, this is really, really bad.
0:13:50And I think globally, like the economic impact of, you know, just quite, if you think about
0:13:56quite how much of the economy, quite how many jobs are directly related to things like restaurants
0:14:03and travel and hospitality that are all going to be devastated by this.
0:14:08That's a bad scene for a lot of people and for the economy.
0:14:11And I think that is going to affect everyone for a long time.
0:14:16The economic impact of this is going to be felt for a while.
0:14:18You know, we've already seen the stock market doing very poorly right now.
0:14:22And that also, that affects everybody too.
0:14:24Like, you know, a lot of people who have their retirement savings, you know, tied up in index
0:14:28funds and stuff like that, like those are all just down right now.
0:14:31And anytime you have any kind of like global depression or recession, it kind of puts everyone
0:14:36in a bit of a funk because a lot of people lose a lot of money.
0:14:41And for a lot of people, that could mean like delaying retirement or, you know, not putting
0:14:45off non-essential purchases, as you said, you know, stuff like that.
0:14:48And so, yeah, when you're releasing an app into this, you have to be aware of that.
0:14:52But fortunately, I think most of us release apps that are less impacted by these kind
0:15:00of things directly.
0:15:01You know, obviously this depends on your app.
0:15:03But because most apps are very low cost or free and supported with ads or something else,
0:15:11I think we're actually going to be mostly okay on the business side for most types of
0:15:16apps.
0:15:17Again, this is all hedging with a lot of mosts and maybes.
0:15:19But, you know, I think overall app makers will be okay.
0:15:23It's the rest of the economy that we have to worry about and try to support as best
0:15:26as we can because it's going to be decimated.
0:15:30So many industries are going to be destroyed by this.
0:15:33You know, I guarantee you, like everyone listening, like some restaurant you like is going to
0:15:39go out of business because of this.
0:15:40Some people you know are going to really be hurting financially because of this.
0:15:44Like this is going to impact everybody.
0:15:46So be mindful of that, be sensitive to that.
0:15:50But I do think that we are fortunate.
0:15:53We are very fortunate in a number of ways.
0:15:54But we are fortunate in that the app business will be mostly okay after this beyond the
0:16:00impact of just whatever would happen if the stock market went down normally.
0:16:05So maybe getting a new job, hiring might be a problem.
0:16:09Advertising is going to become a little bit challenging because typically when budgets
0:16:13start getting cut, advertising gets cut first because it's considered like a non-essential
0:16:18expenditure.
0:16:19So that could affect a lot of us.
0:16:22But I don't think it's going to be fatal to any of our businesses.
0:16:25I think it's just going to be like a bit of a down year for most of us.
0:16:28But we'll be okay.
0:16:29It's the rest of the economy we have to worry about.
0:16:31Well, and I think it speaks to in the same way that I think just broadly in the economy.
0:16:36Like when things get difficult, the more marginal your sort of subsistence is, the far more
0:16:45vulnerable you are to this kind of a downturn, this kind of a situation.
0:16:49And I think that applies broadly to the economy that the people for whom they're in a financial
0:16:53situation that is more marginal, that it's much more month to month that they're sort
0:16:59of operating in.
0:17:00Like a downturn like this is really problematic and difficult and dangerous for them.
0:17:05And in the same way on a business perspective, I got to imagine it's like if your business
0:17:08is one that can't just sort of absorb a 10 or 15 percent drop in revenue or in usage
0:17:19or whatever that metric is for you, if that difference in margin sort of puts you in the
0:17:25red and knocks you out, then this downturn could be fatal and could be problematic in
0:17:31that way for your business.
0:17:33I've already seen in my own, so for the apps that I have that use third party advertising,
0:17:39so I use AdSense for most of this, so essentially Google's big auction-based advertising system
0:17:45that pulls in from lots and lots of different industries and pulls in lots of things, I've
0:17:49already seen a 20 to 30 percent drop in the advertising rates that I get in my apps.
0:17:54Oh, wow.
0:17:55And this is one of those things that I think that's a just into your point, it's a general
0:18:00reflection on the constraint of businesses' budgets, that if you are going into a period
0:18:08of uncertainty or you're having a difficult time, advertising is an easy thing to turn
0:18:15up and to turn down because it's not that core essential like making payroll or building
0:18:20your product or whatever it is, expense.
0:18:22You can just pour money into this thing or take money out of it.
0:18:26And so I definitely see that, I mean it's the comedy of I usually see the, there's lots
0:18:30of things that I can see in the data having done this for so many years where my advertising
0:18:35rates always fall at the end, like the day after the end of a financial quarter.
0:18:40So there's certain periods where it's just like the next day it drops off and it's because
0:18:45presumably someone had a budget that they had their quarterly budget and they went in
0:18:50at the beginning of Q1 and put in their advertising money to spend and it's like spread out over
0:18:54the quarter and then they'll go and put in their money for the next day but it doesn't
0:19:00necessarily happen right away.
0:19:01And I'll see these, the first year it happened it was terrifying where suddenly I had April
0:19:051st and my revenue is down 30% for one day and then it picks itself back up and it's
0:19:11fine but you can see these weird tendrils of the actual effects in these businesses
0:19:18who are doing the advertising kind of average out into these things and I'm definitely seeing
0:19:23that already.
0:19:24And I'm just anecdotally, I'm hearing from other fellow indie developers that it's definitely
0:19:29a rough time.
0:19:30That a lot of this is down, it isn't collapsing at least at this point but it's definitely
0:19:36like, there's that little part, that top part, the more, hopefully you have a core part of
0:19:46your business that is stable but there's the nice part, the part that grows or the like
0:19:53that little, there's this non-core part of your business that can potentially just like
0:19:57disappear.
0:19:59And I'm definitely seeing that myself and so it's like I think at this point I'm not
0:20:03worried in terms of like I think my core business is fine and I've been, it's like the whole
0:20:08point in many ways, it's like being prudent when you're having the good times so that
0:20:12when things are not good you're alright but I could definitely see there's gonna be a
0:20:17lot of small businesses even in our app development world where if they were just making it that
0:20:25now they're just not making it as a result of these kind of downturns in advertising
0:20:31or user purchasing or related things.
0:20:34- Speaking of advertising, there's no good way to make this segue, I'm just gonna go
0:20:38now for it.
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0:22:19So I wanted to talk a little bit more about building Slack into the system, I don't mean
0:22:23the chat tool, I mean like a rope, building Slack into the system.
0:22:30You mentioned if your margins are super slim then a sudden 20 or 30% drop in revenue could
0:22:37be fatal for your business.
0:22:39There's a lot of businesses where this is kind of inevitable, this is just kind of part
0:22:43of those businesses that their margins just aren't that big.
0:22:47We are lucky as software developers in that most of our businesses don't work that way.
0:22:51Most of our businesses are pretty low cost and I think this is one of the great lessons
0:22:57that I want to leave people with besides, I mean we could do all sorts of things.
0:23:01We could talk about working from home, we could talk about avoiding the likely depression
0:23:06that might result from this, the emotional depression that might result from being all
0:23:09cooped up like this for a long time.
0:23:12We aren't really experts in that kind of thing and lots of people are talking about working
0:23:15from home.
0:23:16So I want to focus on like leaving Slack in your business for the rest of this episode.
0:23:21This is one of the many times when it pays to have kept your costs low, it pays to develop
0:23:28skills or to arrange your business in such a way that you have very low overhead because
0:23:34stuff like this happens.
0:23:35Ever since the App Store launched, I had Instapaper there on day two or three and I've been in
0:23:43the App Store with something every day since then.
0:23:48The entire time I have treated the App Store like this is a fad that could collapse and
0:23:53go away at any moment.
0:23:57The entire time I've kept my costs much lower than my income, like as a percentage of the
0:24:02income.
0:24:03Even when I've been running a lot of very expensive servers back when they used to cost
0:24:06money before Linode.
0:24:10Ever since I've been running servers, usually that's my biggest cost.
0:24:15I don't hire a staff because that can be a way bigger cost than servers.
0:24:20So I try not to hire a staff and I use inexpensive infrastructure.
0:24:24So I don't use AWS for almost anything.
0:24:26I use S3 for large storage of things like images and uploads and backups, but that's
0:24:34about it.
0:24:36And otherwise, I'm using VPSs.
0:24:39I'm using inexpensive commodity VPSs.
0:24:42And I've been at Linode for all of Overcast.
0:24:44Before Overcast, I was doing big servers, but now I don't need those.
0:24:48Now VPSs are powerful enough.
0:24:50You can keep your costs really low if you use commodity infrastructure like Linode or
0:24:56other similar services like DigitalOcean and all these other places that have VPSs.
0:25:00You can keep your costs really low by doing that.
0:25:04And if you can do almost all the work yourself, or all the work yourself, you don't really
0:25:09need a full-time staff.
0:25:10Or you can just use contract labor for the very, very few.
0:25:14If you wanted to maybe contract somebody to answer your support emails, but it wasn't
0:25:19enough for a full-time job, you could do something like that.
0:25:22And then otherwise, you're doing everything yourself.
0:25:25There's a huge advantage to that, because if your revenue goes down 30%, but it's just
0:25:30you, and you've been keeping your overhead low that entire time, not only are you likely
0:25:35to still be in the black, but even if you're in the red for a couple of months, you've
0:25:41been building savings, I hope, for that entire time.
0:25:44And so you can take a couple of months of down months if you know that it's going to
0:25:49turn around.
0:25:50Or you can also have ways you can cut your expenses.
0:25:53If you're on all this commodity hardware, if your usage goes down, chances are your server
0:25:56needs are going to go down too.
0:25:58And so you can maybe cut some of those servers out.
0:26:01There is such an advantage to keeping your costs very, very low and leaving yourself
0:26:04a big margin.
0:26:05And this is one of the things that most businesses that rely on a staff can't do that very easily.
0:26:13But we as independent developers generally can.
0:26:17And there's never, in the same way that people are looking at the best time to start saving
0:26:24for retirement is 20 years ago, and the second best time is today, the best time to build
0:26:30a low margin business and to keep a lot of slack in the system and to build in ways for
0:26:35you to maybe be able to survive without touching your servers for a week or things like that,
0:26:41the best time for all that is now.
0:26:44And I think too, it's the, I mean, honestly, what I like about trying to have a low overhead,
0:26:52a sort of a, like, when things are going good, a high margin business is it is a lot less
0:26:58stressful to me that I like that there are just fewer moving parts.
0:27:03I'm not like I have that that slack is like peace of mind in a lot of ways that it's
0:27:12lovely, it's what a privileged position to be able to go into my advertising rates dashboard
0:27:18and be like, "Huh, advertising rates are down 20%."
0:27:21Oh well, that's unfortunate, but it's not like, "Oh my goodness, that's the end
0:27:26of the world."
0:27:27And it's like because my business is structured such that it doesn't need, it's like I'm
0:27:34not operating at that high level.
0:27:36And in order to do that, the reality too is you have to be saying no to potential opportunities.
0:27:42Like, I've definitely been in the, like, you're in the question of like, if I had,
0:27:47you know, if I, in the periods where you have extra margin, you could take that margin and
0:27:52you can turn it into like things, you could spend it on advertising and buy search ads,
0:27:57you could hire more developers and expand out to new platforms, like you can keep spreading
0:28:01yourself and, you know, reinvent, in some ways you could say like, "Well, you're
0:28:05reinvesting those resources into your business and that's like helping it grow."
0:28:09And like, that's all true, but I definitely, I think you and I, I think are very much in
0:28:13the mindset that like, it's much, there's a tremendous amount of peace of mind of not
0:28:19pushing your business to its edge on an ongoing basis.
0:28:24That instead, like, just enjoy that, like if things are going good, like great, enjoy
0:28:28that, and don't necessarily feel like you have to make them better and better.
0:28:32Like and this is one of the things that I think I enjoy about, my goal is not to have
0:28:36just like this massive, you know, like what they call it, a unicorn company or I'm sure
0:28:42this there's a VC term for like, you know, the business that just like grows massively
0:28:47and becomes like this, you know, hundreds of millions or billions of dollar business
0:28:50and it's this whole big, like industry defining thing.
0:28:52It's like, that's not my goal.
0:28:54My goal is to do work that I enjoy and, you know, have a comfortable, you know, sort of
0:29:00standard of living and managing your costs and managing yourself puts you in a position
0:29:05to have that when things are good and to probably sustain that when things are like they are
0:29:11right now and aren't so good.
0:29:14- Yeah, well, best wishes everybody.
0:29:18Stay safe, please follow all the, you know, modern recommendations that are up to date
0:29:22from, you know, various, you know, CDC and WHO and everything, you know, try to stay
0:29:27at home and try to be safe and try to take care of people around you who need it because
0:29:31this is gonna put a huge strain, it already is, and it will continue to put a huge strain
0:29:36on a lot of people's lives and a lot of people's budgets and we are lucky that we are okay.
0:29:41Take care of the people who aren't.
0:29:42- Yeah.
0:29:43- Thanks for listening and we'll talk to you in two weeks.
0:29:45- Bye.
0:29:46Thank you.