0:00:00Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development. I'm Marco Arment.
0:00:05And I'm David Smith. Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.
0:00:10So today, we wanted to talk about, I guess, it's a bit of a hard thing to put into a box,
0:00:16but I think it's the general topic of continuously changing editorial content. So if there are
0:00:23things in your app that aren't at all technical features, these aren't things that you are
0:00:29building in Xcode or writing in technical level, but are things that are nevertheless
0:00:35changing and updating as a result of you taking action within your app to put content into
0:00:41your app. And so some examples of this, and this is where this feature is sort of coming
0:00:45from and why I thought it would be an interesting topic, is I recently added a new thing to
0:00:50Pedometer++ called monthly challenges. So every month, there is going to be a new little
0:00:55challenge badge that you can earn by doing something. So in the first month, it was you'd
0:01:02reach your goal 19 times in January. In February, it's going to be have a 10-day streak. There's
0:01:08examples of these, and I'm just going to continue to kind of create and manage these going forward.
0:01:13Another example might be the Discover section in Overcast, where you have a whole bunch
0:01:18of different links to different shows, but it's a curated list that you have to manage.
0:01:24Or you have the App Store's Today tab, which is something that they're committing to update
0:01:30on a regular basis. And this kind of continuously updating content has a lot of interesting
0:01:36kind of benefits and challenges. And when I first sat down to decide that I was going
0:01:40to add this monthly challenges thing, I think there were a bunch of aspects of it that I
0:01:44just hadn't thought about that I'm now having to deal with. That's what made me think that
0:01:48it would be kind of a useful thing to talk about, because it's exciting and interesting,
0:01:53and I've had a really positive reaction to it. But now I'm also having to face down all
0:01:57kinds of challenges and deadlines and things that I had never really had to deal with before.
0:02:02- Yeah, it's the kind of thing where it can really add a lot of value to an app, to have
0:02:07some kind of editorial content in there. But I suggest going into it from an indie perspective
0:02:14very, very carefully. It's one thing if you have a staff, if you have a company that has
0:02:19multiple people, and you can actually hire someone just to do stuff like this, that's
0:02:25a very different story. When you're just one person though, committing yourself to like,
0:02:30"Oh, I'm going to post a new bit of whatever into my app every week or every month or whatever,"
0:02:37that adds up very quickly. And I had the extreme of this when I ran the magazine, where I had
0:02:42to actually produce content once a month, because that's the thing people were paying
0:02:47for with the app. It wasn't an app that happened to have some editorial content that rotated
0:02:51out every month. It was like, no, literally, we are paying people, or people are paying
0:02:55to get this, and I believe that for that, if I remember correctly, it was every two
0:02:59weeks, which was a ton of problems. But to do something every month, say, that really
0:03:06means every month. And you might think in March, "Oh, that sounds great." But then when
0:03:12August rolls around and you're on vacation, all of a sudden it's like, "Wait, every month
0:03:17I have to do this." When December rolls around and you're really busy with the holidays,
0:03:21no, every month. When January or February roll around and nothing is going on in the
0:03:27world, every month, like you still have to produce something every month. And so you
0:03:31really have to be careful when you're committing to something like this, to build a feature
0:03:35of your app around that people will actually use. You really have to be careful that you're
0:03:39not biting off more than you can chew, that you can actually deliver on the pattern that
0:03:44you're starting by building out this feature.
0:03:47>> Yeah. And on the flip side, it is really cool and compelling in a very different way.
0:03:54And I think there's definitely a lot of challenges, and I have a whole list of things that I've
0:04:00run into that will make it hard. But I do think it's also really compelling that I think
0:04:04it's interesting to add something to our apps that lets us give users a reason to come back
0:04:12to the app on a regular basis, which is useful just in general, that it creates an engagement
0:04:16that you just can't get with features. Adding new features to the app can sometimes be useful,
0:04:22but it doesn't have that same sense of timeliness, that there's this sense that hopefully you
0:04:28build a sense of trust with your user where they're going to be coming back to your app
0:04:33on a regular basis because they're expecting something that they like. And if you can keep
0:04:37delivering that, you've locked them into this great little virtuous cycle where they're
0:04:42continuing to come back, you create content, and that's very positive.
0:04:46It also, I think, is nice that it allows you to enhance your app without having to actually
0:04:52add features or do code, that if you build it in a thoughtful way, you're not necessarily
0:04:59going into Xcode every month or every week or whatever you're adding this kind of content.
0:05:03You're potentially just publishing a P list to a website or making a change like that
0:05:09that can then reflect in the app, which is also nice because then potentially you can
0:05:15have people working on creating this content who aren't you, who are less technical, whether
0:05:22that be someone you outsource this to or even just your spouse or a friend or something
0:05:28like that that doesn't have to be technical in the way that I want to add a feature to
0:05:34my app. You have to really get into that.
0:05:37It's kind of fun that you can potentially highlight different features in the app that
0:05:43people may not be aware of by drawing their attention to it because you have this mechanism
0:05:49now where you're directly communicating with your customers in a non-just like here's
0:05:56the app and here is its features. It has more of a voice to it.
0:06:01For example, if I want to make sure that people realize that Pedometer++ can do floor counting
0:06:06if you have a device that supports that, then I can have a challenge that includes floor
0:06:10counting. If you're not really sure what that is, it's a prompt to go and do it.
0:06:16Lots of challenges, lots of commitments. The reason I wanted to do the show today is because
0:06:23I was sitting down and I built the feature initially for my monthly challenges and it
0:06:29just had January in it. It didn't have a mechanism for adding future months or anything because
0:06:34I just wanted to have it in by January 1st because that seemed like the really opportune
0:06:39time to launch a feature like this. Then I got to the middle of January and I got a bit
0:06:44sick and I had to take a week off working. Then I was like, "Oh, no. February 1st, this
0:06:48needs to be in the App Store. I need to have this thing in the App Store by February 1st,"
0:06:53which means that it needs to be submitted by the last week of January at the absolute
0:06:58latest and ideally a bit before that so it can propagate out to the App Store and everyone
0:07:03will have it. That pressure is not great.
0:07:07- Yeah, but you're right though. It does really add a lot of potential upside. That's why
0:07:14these features are so compelling because not only are feature editions by themselves harder
0:07:20to get people to care about, but they're also just less effective at boosting engagement
0:07:24in your app. Lots of people install apps, play with them for a little bit, and then
0:07:29don't go back. This is one of the reasons why push notification spam is so prevalent
0:07:34because it works and it solves a necessary problem, which is how do you get people to
0:07:40come back to your app when they might have forgotten about it or gotten bored with it
0:07:44or gotten tired of it? Most of the time they really just have forgotten about it. They've
0:07:49moved on to other things.
0:07:51There are ways to do this that are really annoying and that I really don't like and
0:07:55I think are morally questionable and that definitely violate the least enforced App
0:08:01Store guideline, which is the one against push notifications for marketing. There is
0:08:07ultimately a lot of value in giving something that people actually want as notification
0:08:13to say, "A new challenge just arrived," or something. Again, it's a really, really fine
0:08:19line. If you're going to do this ethically, it's important that people know what they're
0:08:24opting into when they turn on notifications for your app and that you give them very,
0:08:28very good fine-grained controls to turn those off without disabling all notifications from
0:08:33your app.
0:08:35There are ways to do this well. I've thought before about things like with Overcast, how
0:08:40maybe I could make, when you get a new recommendation for the Twitter recommendations feature, maybe
0:08:46you can get a push notification for that optionally. There's all sorts of things that I could do
0:08:49like that. It really is important to have some reason for people to return to your app
0:08:57when they haven't been using it for a little while. There's lots of ways to do this badly
0:09:02or questionably or sleazily, but if you can find a way to do it well that people don't
0:09:09get turned off by and that they have fine-grained controls over disabling if they don't like
0:09:13it, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. That's just not usually the way it's
0:09:17done.
0:09:18>> The thing about that too is there's the communication outside of the app. I think
0:09:24there's even moreover the interesting things that you can do around communicating within
0:09:28the app. How do you let people know that there's new things for them to see? The classic examples
0:09:35of this is any kind of social media app where obviously the content isn't coming from the
0:09:41app itself but it's from other users. You have little badges on the tab bars or all
0:09:46kinds of indicators and things to be like, "Hey, there's something cool and interesting
0:09:50over here. Come and look at it," and to create that sense of there's something new for you
0:09:56to see.
0:09:58That's another interesting way. Externally pulling people in because of content you're
0:10:03creating, I would be very reluctant to get into that world because you're very quickly
0:10:10becoming intrusive in a way that I tend to shy away from. It's possible potentially to
0:10:15do it correctly. If someone has opted in for it, then maybe there's a case for it. There's
0:10:22certainly a case for doing that within your app. Even to the extent for the first time
0:10:28I think I've ever done it in Panometer++, I had a little pointy arrow, there's a news
0:10:35bubble that popped up just one time this month to indicate to tell people that there's a
0:10:42new feature in the badges section that's called monthly challenges. I wanted to let people
0:10:49know because it was a time-based thing that they had to do something with that I didn't
0:10:53want to have the situation where you go to the badge section only every now and then
0:10:58probably because you're not earning badges every day and then you discover, "Hey, there's
0:11:03only 17 days left in January and I need to hit my goal 19 times, I'm stuck." That'd be
0:11:09frustrating. I did a little thing, it's like, "Hey, there's something here, take a look.
0:11:15There's new monthly badges," which I usually tend to shy away from a lot of those kinds
0:11:20of things and make things more organic. But I think when you get into this world where
0:11:25you have this kind of editorial content that is potentially time-based, and in some ways,
0:11:32the weird thing is that the more time-based it is, the more compelling or valuable it
0:11:38may actually be. Sometimes the frequency or the timeliness of it is what makes it interesting,
0:11:46that you have a sense of, "This is something that is useful and interesting right now."
0:11:51In my case, it's like, "This is the challenge for this month and you have to earn it this
0:11:54month. You can't wait and do it later." Or in another example, a content that was something
0:12:00that was dealing with a live event or performance or that type of thing where there's a sense
0:12:06of urgency about it is good in that it creates that engagement, but it's definitely this
0:12:12funny slippery slope of making sure that you're not pushing it too strongly, but you're taking
0:12:18advantage of the benefits that it can have for you.
0:12:21- Right, because if you start pushing that button too often, you have to be careful that
0:12:27if you're going to basically create a button that you can push that increases engagement
0:12:32of your app immediately, that's a very dangerous thing to create because you basically create
0:12:38a very strong incentive for yourself to push that button more and more often over time.
0:12:45Notifying people of challenges or of new content or whatever else to try to get them to start
0:12:49using your app again, it's a form of spending political capital. If you push that button,
0:12:57you're costing yourself something. Every time you push that button, you're going to annoy
0:13:01a certain percentage of those people. Certain percentage of those people are going to think
0:13:05less of you, think less of your app and be more likely to disable notifications or to
0:13:08delete the app entirely. It's an expensive action to do frequently. For what you're talking
0:13:16about, having monthly challenge, new monthly challenge, come to the app and do this, that
0:13:20I think is fine. A monthly notification or a monthly special thing in the app is not
0:13:25unreasonable for almost any app that I can think of, but a lot of apps don't do that.
0:13:30A lot of apps start doing it daily, and then that becomes a bigger problem. You have to
0:13:36be sure that when you're creating a mechanism that you can basically push a button whenever
0:13:40you'd like and benefit from that immediately, the temptation starts becoming very great
0:13:46and you have to exercise a lot of self-control to not abuse that to the point where it destroys
0:13:51it.
0:13:52>> The thing too, it's that awkward thing where you want to make sure that you are still
0:14:00keeping the core experience of your app at the forefront of what it is that you're still
0:14:08presenting the user. I think it is easy also for us, the farther we get from the first
0:14:17time we made the app and the initial way that you might use it, I think it's easy to start
0:14:22to imagine that all of your users are as familiar with all of the features, that are as engaged
0:14:28and excited and thrilled by your app as you are, when they may actually just still be
0:14:33in the stage where they're getting used to the core features of it, like just the basic
0:14:37utility of the application. If you start to barrage them with, "Hey, have you done this?
0:14:43What about this? This thing over here, you should check this out," there's a way in which
0:14:48that may just turn them off and it may be too much too soon. It's not actually prompting
0:14:54engagement. If anything, it's pushing someone away because it's like, "Whoa, whoa, what
0:14:59am I getting into here? I just want to count my steps, man. I just want to listen to a
0:15:05podcast. I don't need all this coming at me all the time." I think it's also important
0:15:10to just remember that you're not, in many ways, a lot of these types of things are maybe
0:15:17starting to gear towards your more experienced users, so making sure that you're keeping
0:15:21that in mind that the initial experience. You could imagine the worst version of this
0:15:27would be the user installs the app and then, say, a naive implementation of monthly challenges
0:15:34is like it pops up and it's like, "Hey, here's the challenge for October. Hey, here's the
0:15:38challenge for September. Hey, here's the challenge for August. Hey, here's the challenge for
0:15:42July." You could imagine a naive, simple implementation where it's just like the first time you load
0:15:48the app up, you're like, "Hey, here's all this great stuff that happened before you
0:15:51installed the app," and it's completely overwhelming and not actually useful. I think it's important
0:15:57to keep that kind of thing in mind too where it still has to make sense for someone who
0:16:02is just first coming to the app who isn't in the place of like if you have an editorial
0:16:07section to help them discover new content. Say you're a discover section in Overcast.
0:16:12That's great in terms of as a new user, it's useful to go in there and like I don't know
0:16:18any podcasts. Help me find some. If it gets too complicated or constantly updating or
0:16:26could potentially become just too overwhelming, then you have to be careful that you're not
0:16:30crossing that line too.
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0:18:09>> All right, so another aspect I think that has emerged as I've dived into making this
0:18:14kind of content that is kind of a little bit subtle, potentially, but is the nature by
0:18:19which you want to make content that is broadly appealing for your whole audience, or at least
0:18:27that isn't going to be turning off portions of your audience or being problematic for
0:18:31them or whatever it is. And this can take a variety of different issues. But the issues
0:18:37that I run into are kind of the things that are specific to a fitness based application,
0:18:43where people are going to be coming to my app with a variety of different fitness goals,
0:18:49a variety of different capabilities physically, and it's trying to make something that is
0:18:55appealing and relevant to them. And, you know, for example, like I have users of pedometer++
0:19:01who are in wheelchairs, and so having a goal that is entirely based on steps or based on
0:19:07climbing stairs or things like that would become -- you know, it would be rather problematic
0:19:12and not a good thing. Or even if I just make the goal be something that is just fixed at
0:19:19a certain capability, you know, say, hey, I'm going to set a goal for this month that
0:19:23you have three days where you walk 20,000 steps. That goal might be reasonable for a
0:19:34typical able bodied person, potentially, but it's maybe something that is completely out
0:19:40of reach for someone. And for them, like, getting 2 or 3,000 steps a day is the big
0:19:45reach goal. Like, they've really hit it out of the park, and that's a super big accomplishment
0:19:49for them. And so it's something that I've kind of had to think through and be very thoughtful
0:19:54about is making sure that I'm structuring things in my content that makes it have a
0:19:59broad appeal, that it isn't tied into specific people. Or if it is, if I want to make a goal
0:20:05that is a bit more fixed, that I think about ways of scaling it and adjusting it to be
0:20:11relevant to that user. And I mean, I have the benefit of knowing a lot about their past
0:20:14history typically, so I can -- or like, are they in a wheelchair? Do they have a device
0:20:18that can count floors? What is their average step count? And I can make adjustments and
0:20:24things to it accordingly, but I think it's certainly something that you just have to
0:20:28keep in mind that you want to be ideally broadly specific. And I mean, I imagine in the same
0:20:33way, like, when you're doing your collections of podcasts and overcasts, you have to make
0:20:37sure that you're not -- they're not all just tech podcasts or whatever it is that you listen
0:20:42to, that you're trying to think of things that you may not listen to, you may not have
0:20:45a lot of relevance for, but if a broad enough proportion of your users are interested in
0:20:53that, then it should probably be represented in there as well.
0:20:56Oh, yeah. I mean, my directory in Overcast has been so problematic over time. I have
0:21:01not nailed it yet, but I have learned a few things on the way. I mean, the first version
0:21:07of it was edited. It was hand-curated by me, and I looked into -- like, I talked to some
0:21:13people about maybe helping me out with it, but ultimately, every plan I came up with
0:21:17and the reality of the practice of it had the same problem, which is that when you just
0:21:21have one person curating a directory of content that could include -- that is a large section
0:21:28of content, like, I can't listen to every podcast episode of every podcast. I don't
0:21:33-- like, you would have to hire a staff larger than, like, YouTube staff to do that. And
0:21:38so there has to be some limiting factor there, and for me, my problem was twofold. Number
0:21:45one was I only can understand and write English. And so I'm lucky in podcasting. Podcasting
0:21:54is still extremely English-centric. There is very little podcasting demand or supply
0:22:00in other languages relative to English. And so that's mostly not a problem for me, although
0:22:05that is easily a problem for lots of other types of apps. But the other problem that
0:22:10you run into with curation by one or a handful of people here is just a severe lack of diversity.
0:22:17Like, there's no way I can listen to everything. I don't even listen to all the tech podcasts.
0:22:22I don't even listen to all the big shows, like, all the big public radio shows and,
0:22:27like, the -- like, I don't listen to almost any of them. I don't have time. I listen
0:22:30to all my own tech stuff. So it's hard for one person to really have a broad view. And
0:22:36so I switched it to an automated system a few months in. And so what it is now is literally
0:22:44just based on number of recent recommendations, so that however many people hit the star button
0:22:48in Overcast for a podcast in each one of those iTunes-defined categories, that's what shows
0:22:54up there. Like, it's like, you know, a rolling, you know, one-week window or something like
0:22:57that. And that is not -- you know, that has its own set of diversity challenges and editorial
0:23:03challenges, but it's at least no longer my fault. And it's way better than what I
0:23:10was doing myself before, because now I'm taking advantage of the entire user base.
0:23:15So in a way, it's user-generated content. And then I also have the Twitter following
0:23:18recommendation system, which can give you even closer tailored recommendations and,
0:23:23like, the recommendations for you, which is based on what you subscribe to and what other
0:23:27people who subscribe to those things subscribe to. So that's all, you know, well and good
0:23:34and better than what I can do individually. There are a lot of challenges to user-generated
0:23:40content like this that I've tried to be very careful about. I'm still not perfect
0:23:45on, but I try to be very careful about. You know, it's tempting to outsource this kind
0:23:50of stuff to your user base because it feels like it's free. It's like, oh, it's -- you
0:23:54know, user-generated content just generates itself, and you don't have to do anything.
0:23:58And that's a double-edged sword, because you have to also be very careful about the
0:24:04typical pitfalls of user-generated content -- spam, illegal content, harassment, hate
0:24:10speech, you know, like if there's adult filtering required, things like that. There's
0:24:14all sorts of problems that can result from letting people do their own content that shows
0:24:19up to other people in the app. That's why I've been very, very careful with Overcast.
0:24:24The reason why there is nowhere in Overcast to rate a podcast or to leave a review, with
0:24:30the sole exception of recommending individual episodes with just the on or off star, is
0:24:35that if you have a way for users to enter text that becomes visible to other users,
0:24:42you have a big problem of spam, harassment, illegal content, stuff like that. And so I've
0:24:47been very, very careful to not let people show text to other people in the app. The
0:24:53only way to do that is to make a podcast and submit it to iTunes, which themselves filter
0:24:58it for a lot of that stuff, and then it'll start showing up in Overcast. And so I've
0:25:03avoided having to deal with user-generated content filtering problems and abuse problems,
0:25:09because I just simply don't allow it. If you can do that, that's great. That doesn't
0:25:14necessarily work for every app. And I do, unfortunately, still have problems of there
0:25:20not being a ton of diversity in what gets recommended. Part of that is the user base
0:25:25is fault, part of that is the kind of rich get richer problem of what is being recommended
0:25:30most is what's being subscribed to most, and what's being subscribed to most is what's
0:25:34being recommended most. And so it kind of feeds on itself and the rich get richer, and
0:25:39it's hard to break into that. So I haven't totally nailed this problem yet there, but
0:25:46it's definitely way better being algorithmic the way it is now, and user-generated. It's
0:25:52way better that way than it was when it was just me, one person, trying to edit an entire
0:25:58podcast directory.
0:25:59>> Yeah, I feel like the algorithmically-generated content thing is such this, it's great in that
0:26:09if one of the biggest challenges of creating editorial content is that it is a pain to
0:26:14be put on a deadline and have to constantly be able to deliver it, then turning to a machine
0:26:20who can just continuously spew this out is great. That rather than you creating a list
0:26:25or rather than me making monthly challenges, you can just have the computer do it. Sounds
0:26:30great. But immediately there's so many problems that come into that that are so funny because
0:26:36it just doesn't necessarily have the benefit of a person, a person with opinions, which
0:26:42can be good and bad, or even just making judgments. And I think of an example of this is in the
0:26:48activity app currently, it does monthly challenges, and the way that it does it is that Apple
0:26:54has just taken the complete algorithmic approach, where it's just looking at one of your health
0:27:00metrics for the past month, and then it sets a goal for you based on some increase of that
0:27:06value, which in theory sort of is good, except for it can lead to these completely absurd
0:27:13goals or badges that don't make sense. I've had a month where I was traveling a lot and
0:27:21I did a lot of walking, and then the next month's challenge is like, "This month,
0:27:26you should walk 50% more or 20% more." And it's like, "I need you to walk 250 miles
0:27:33this month," or whatever it is. I know exactly what happened there. The algorithm looked
0:27:39at what I did and says, "Wow, you're really doing a great job with walking. Go do 10%
0:27:44more. Go do 20% more." But the reality of that is it's completely demotivating and
0:27:49kind of sad, where I look at this goal and it's like, "That's impossible. There's
0:27:52no way that I can do that." It makes sense that Apple doesn't want to necessarily be
0:27:58creating tailored monthly goals for every person that is being done by a person, but
0:28:03at the same time, as soon as you rely on an algorithm to create the content, it's going
0:28:07to become problematic in different ways because it just doesn't have the benefit of being
0:28:14thoughtful. No matter how carefully you design your algorithm, it's not going to be as
0:28:18thoughtful or creative or relevant as doing it with someone else.
0:28:22I think there's definitely this balance that we have to find between creating compelling
0:28:28content that will draw people into your app that ideally is relevant to a broad range
0:28:37of your users and highlights useful features of your app and is compelling in and of itself
0:28:43that doesn't destroy you and make you tied to deadlines that pushes you to do too much.
0:28:49But finding that balance, I think, is a really compelling tool that we have available to
0:28:53us. But yes, I so want to go down the route of just algorithmically generated challenges,
0:28:59but then I know it's going to be problematic, and so I don't want to do that. Instead,
0:29:02I want to be on this treadmill of coming up with a new challenge every month and hopefully
0:29:06doing it monthly rather than weekly or every couple of weeks is going to be not too much
0:29:11that I only have to come up with 12 of them a year. My hope is just to make 12 of them
0:29:16in the next few weeks, and then I can put them in the app and they'll be there. But
0:29:21it's definitely a challenge, but it's a very compelling tool that I think most apps
0:29:26can benefit from.
0:29:27>> Thanks for listening, everyone, and we'll talk to you next week.
0:29:30>> Bye.
0:29:31[ Silence ]