0:00:00Welcome to Under the Radar, a show about independent iOS app development.
0:00:03I'm Mark Orment.
0:00:04And I'm David Smith.
0:00:05Under the Radar is never longer than 30 minutes, so let's get started.
0:00:09So first of all, some quick follow-up.
0:00:11Last week we were talking about the new hardware and how it might be useful to developers.
0:00:14I got actually a Mac mini review unit, and I did a full review over at marker.org and
0:00:19on YouTube.
0:00:21And so check it out if you are interested.
0:00:23The short version for developers is that it's really fast.
0:00:26The CPU -- the GPU is not so good, but the CPU is really fast.
0:00:29And so actually, as a developer machine, if you want a Mac mini for development, I would
0:00:35say it is very -- more than sufficient.
0:00:38It is a really good choice for that.
0:00:40So anyway, that's it for follow-up.
0:00:42Our first follow-up ever?
0:00:43Yeah, I think so.
0:00:45Yeah.
0:00:46Probably.
0:00:47Trademark John Siracusa 2010.
0:00:48Something like that.
0:00:49But I think for the actual topic, I think we wanted to dive into a little bit this week.
0:00:53It's something that is coming out of my own personal experience recently, which I feel
0:00:58like often some of our best topics tend to come out that way.
0:01:01But it's -- I've been having a lot of trouble recently being motivated and productive.
0:01:06Like, it's just -- I know that this thing -- like, productivity comes in seasons.
0:01:11And I've been doing this for 10 years.
0:01:12Actually, tomorrow, I think, is the 10-year anniversary of my first app being approved
0:01:16in the App Store.
0:01:17Ah, congratulations almost.
0:01:18Yeah, almost.
0:01:19But 10 years, I've been doing this.
0:01:21And I've gone through this cycle many times, where there's some times that you just feel
0:01:26like you are so motivated, you're productive.
0:01:29Like every day, you just want to get to work.
0:01:31And then there's seasons like I'm in right now, where I can get hardly anything done.
0:01:36And sometimes I just try and nothing happens.
0:01:39Sometimes it's hard to even start.
0:01:41And this concept of cycles of motivation is actually kind of a -- that term has been stuck
0:01:47in my head since 2010, when you, on your previous development podcast, Build and Analyze, episode
0:01:53number six --
0:01:54That's way back.
0:01:55Way back.
0:01:56Way, way back, coined the term "cycles of motivation."
0:01:59That was the title for that show.
0:02:01And I think it's a good encapsulation of this feeling, where sometimes you're going great,
0:02:06and sometimes you're not.
0:02:08And it can be at a macro level, where you can go through a period where, for days and
0:02:13weeks, or maybe even up to months, it can be tough or good, or it can go at a micro
0:02:18level, where sometimes different parts of the day can be good and bad.
0:02:21But where I am right now is, if anything, it reminds me of writer's block, where you
0:02:26hear about writers who hit a point and it's really hard for them to write.
0:02:31I'm in coder's block right now, and I find it really hard to program.
0:02:36And so it seemed like an interesting topic to unpack and talk about, and I think specifically
0:02:41to talk at it from some of the reasons and the causes.
0:02:46Once you're in this place, there's a variety of strategies.
0:02:48And I think we've had episodes previously talking about strategies to get out, but some
0:02:54of the things that might get you into a place where it's hard to feel motivated or productive.
0:03:00And if you know what the causes are, you can either be more aware of them coming into it,
0:03:06and then also just maybe potentially avoid bad thought patterns and things that can get
0:03:11you into trouble by being aware of it ahead of time.
0:03:15Yeah, this is like, as you pulled up my podcast from eight years ago, I have always had this
0:03:23problem.
0:03:24I've always worked in bursts.
0:03:25I have always had these cycles of motivation, as apparently I said eight years ago or 10
0:03:31years ago.
0:03:32I have no recollection of this, but it's a long time ago now.
0:03:37I've never been a consistent worker.
0:03:39I've never had a consistent work ethic.
0:03:41And it helps to have some external factors influencing it.
0:03:46I've released the podcast I do, both this and ATP, I release every single week.
0:03:53There's an episode every week.
0:03:55Even if we can't record that week, we'll record one ahead of time, and we have never missed
0:03:58a week.
0:04:00And that is just like, I feel partly motivated by, there are sponsors that have commitments
0:04:06with us, and also that I'm doing these shows with other people.
0:04:10And that helps a lot too.
0:04:12And so there's kind of systems in place for that, but things that I don't have hard deadlines
0:04:18for, or things that I'm doing only for and with myself, it's much harder to maintain
0:04:25that level of motivation for more than a while.
0:04:30And I found that one of the ways, one of the only ways that I'm able to be independent
0:04:34like this is that I have the luxury that most of the other things I do besides podcasts
0:04:39don't have hard schedules and hard deadlines and everything.
0:04:44It's much more freeform.
0:04:46I can work on Overcast.
0:04:47There's some level of baseline work I have to always do, like I have to respond to ad
0:04:54inquiries because that's where the money comes from.
0:04:55I have to respond to customer support if there's real bad problems there.
0:04:59I have to keep the servers running because the entire app depends on them running all
0:05:03the time.
0:05:04But other stuff like actually improving the app, working on new features, working on new
0:05:09designs, that kind of stuff can pretty much happen any time or no time.
0:05:14So I'm very bursty with that.
0:05:18I do a big burst of work for, I'll have a couple of solid weeks where I'm just amazing,
0:05:23getting tons of stuff done, and then I'll have a month where I don't touch it at all.
0:05:29I've never been able to level out that pattern.
0:05:32It's always been spiky like that.
0:05:33Yeah, and I think something that took me a long time to get comfortable with is that
0:05:39reality of that burstiness.
0:05:42Maybe this isn't applied to everybody.
0:05:43Some people maybe just level Steven the whole time.
0:05:46That's great.
0:05:47But I had to get used to the fact that sometimes I'm just not going to be able to get any work
0:05:53done.
0:05:55Coming from an hourly-based, like I used to do consulting where I worked for a consulting
0:06:01company for other companies, and that work, every hour, you need 40 billable hours every
0:06:08single week.
0:06:10That is something that you are measured by and your performance is based on, and it is
0:06:14an important part of that.
0:06:17So having a day where you just feel like you've got nothing done or you really just couldn't
0:06:22work and you just had to go for a walk felt really problematic, I think, early on, where
0:06:28it's like, "What am I doing?
0:06:29I'm just wasting all this time.
0:06:30I could have gotten so much done."
0:06:31I think at a certain point, you just have to accept that this seems to be just a common
0:06:37pattern and it should make you uncomfortable, probably.
0:06:40This is where I've settled for myself.
0:06:43When I go through a season where I feel really blocked, where I feel like I can't really
0:06:48get work done, it should continue to make me feel uncomfortable.
0:06:52That it shouldn't be just like, "Oh yeah, this is totally fine.
0:06:55At some point, it'll get better and I'll start working again."
0:06:58That wouldn't be a great thing.
0:07:00It's good to feel uncomfortable, but I think it's also good to just accept the fact that
0:07:04this just seems to happen.
0:07:06I think there is some amount of just the nature of this kind of work, and especially the independent
0:07:10development side of it, where you're not externally connected to other things that
0:07:17force you to do work.
0:07:19You're naturally going to have these bursts where you're working way too much and then
0:07:22you're going to work way too little.
0:07:25Maybe it would be nice if it was evened out, but in my experience, it doesn't really happen.
0:07:31And I think I too used to mentally beat myself up over it more than I do now because the
0:07:39reality is what doesn't matter is that you work 40 hours a week.
0:07:45What does matter is the work getting done.
0:07:48That's really the question that matters.
0:07:51Are you getting done what you need to get done at the end of the week or the month or
0:07:55whatever time interval you're measuring?
0:07:59All the jobs I've had, my bosses very quickly all figured out the way I work in this bursty
0:08:04way.
0:08:05It very quickly became like they would walk by my computer and see that I was browsing
0:08:10a web forum and they would stop asking questions because they knew that eventually I would
0:08:14get the work done and that if you average out my productivity over time, I was doing
0:08:18a full-time job worth of work, just not in the traditional pattern of time doing it.
0:08:25I would do two solid mornings of work and that would be the same amount that other people
0:08:31would get done in a whole week of just slowly diligently working normally because I'm lucky
0:08:37that I could work very quickly and very well in short bursts, but in the rest of the week,
0:08:41my brain is just in a different mode and I can't make myself do it.
0:08:45And that's how I was in all my other jobs, that's how I am now, but the reality is the
0:08:52work gets done.
0:08:53The businesses keep going, the apps are fine, my apps are not in extreme neglect.
0:08:58Some of them are like Quitter, which is my dumb little Mac app, but it works.
0:09:05It doesn't need a lot of attention.
0:09:08Forecast is a low priority, but it also works.
0:09:10I use it every week, twice at least, and so that works fine, but I don't give it a lot
0:09:14of attention.
0:09:16And Overcast has an up and down pattern, but it averages out to be, I remain competitive,
0:09:24the app remains good and useful to its customers, the money it brings in is normal and fine,
0:09:30and so everything's going fine, even though I work in this really seemingly bad pattern.
0:09:37I think it's interesting to me to unpack for the rest of the show, some of the things that
0:09:40at least I find get us into this place.
0:09:43I think the first one, which I'll take lower down in my list, but I think is a great segue
0:09:48to what you were just talking about, is in a weird way, I find that success can be a
0:09:53big challenge to motivation.
0:09:55While it's slightly counterintuitive, but sometimes I find that when things are going
0:10:00well, when things are moving along, there's less of that hunger or need to feel like I
0:10:06have to keep working.
0:10:09Once my apps get to that place, where they're working pretty well, nothing's on fire, revenue
0:10:14is solid and stable, it becomes harder than in the initial periods when I was working,
0:10:20to where I felt like there was that urgency and that need to do things.
0:10:26I think also too, once you get to a certain point of success, it becomes harder to justify
0:10:33growth as a requirement, rather than just as a "would be nice."
0:10:37It's something that I found too, where you get to a place that you have a good stable
0:10:41income that is meeting your needs and giving you a comfortable lifestyle.
0:10:46Then it's hard to want to go crazy again, like you were in the early days, to try and
0:10:52grow again, because the marginal increase in your happiness or your benefit to your
0:10:58family or anything will go down.
0:11:01Having those types of extra work has an external cost to you, to your relationships, your health,
0:11:09etc., all of those things, and so it becomes harder to justify.
0:11:12In a weird way, I find success can be a strange challenge for motivation, where once you arrive,
0:11:19at least for me, I find it harder to have that same hunger again.
0:11:24I would even argue that everything you just said is actually a good thing for indies to
0:11:32kind of back off of something once it has reached a successful plateau.
0:11:38A lot of times people are tempted to just keep working and working and working, pouring
0:11:43tons of time into something that has plateaued, when that probably is not an efficient use
0:11:49of that time for your business.
0:11:52If something seems to be working just fine, there's an infinite amount of time you could
0:11:56put into it.
0:11:57There's always more things you can add.
0:11:59There's always more features you can make better or re-architect.
0:12:03There's always things you could redesign, new technologies you could adopt from the
0:12:07platform or whatever.
0:12:08There's always going to be more stuff to do, but certain apps or businesses just can't
0:12:13actually justify that.
0:12:16You as a person have limited time, especially if you're an indie like us, when you are the
0:12:20only person in your business, or close to it at least, then the most costly thing you
0:12:27have is your work time.
0:12:31It might not be worth, once something has reached whatever your level of success definition
0:12:35is, it might not be worth pouring a lot more time into it until it needs something.
0:12:40Don't just think, "Well, I have this app.
0:12:42It's going great.
0:12:43I'm out of things to do for it, so I guess I will redesign it," or something like that.
0:12:48That's not necessarily the right use of that time.
0:12:52I consider that kind of motivational cycle driver to be possibly positive.
0:12:59Oh, sure.
0:13:00It's an interesting way to look at it, to view that your motivation for working on something
0:13:06may diminish as it becomes successful as a feature and not a bug.
0:13:11As it becomes sustainable, part of the benefit of the kind of work we do is that it generates
0:13:17-- it's not passive income in a true sense, but it's semi-passive.
0:13:23If you never stop to take advantage of that, then you're kind of missing out on an opportunity.
0:13:29The time that you would spend re-architecting a big chunk of this app that doesn't really
0:13:33need to be re-architected or redesigning or whatever else, that time could be better spent
0:13:37going in a whole different direction, whether it's a new app, a new product, a new service,
0:13:42or a totally different new kind of feature that will bring the app to way more people
0:13:48or will totally change what kind of thing it is.
0:13:50That's a better use of that time than just polishing and prodding away and refactoring
0:13:58and stuff like that.
0:13:59It doesn't need to be software development.
0:14:01What if you spend that time instead starting up a podcast or a YouTube channel or something
0:14:05where you can promote your stuff?
0:14:06That actually might be better for your business than adding one more feature that 5% of the
0:14:11users will actually use.
0:14:13And I think it gets to another one of the things on my list of things that I find challenging
0:14:17to productivity where I feel like boredom can very quickly sap my motivation.
0:14:24That if I feel like I've solved this problem before and I'm continuing to solve it again
0:14:29and again and again, that level of that kind of boredom is really hard to make me want
0:14:35to get started working on something.
0:14:37And I think it's tricky when if you get a name for doing a certain kind of thing, then
0:14:45it's slightly hard to necessarily break out of it.
0:14:50I've made a lot of apps that are about taking some kind of health data and making an interesting
0:14:55way to display it to people and show it to them.
0:14:59I've solved that problem many, many times now.
0:15:02And I'm getting very good at it, and I know what people like and how it works and technically
0:15:05how to do it.
0:15:07But it's tricky when that kind of gets boring in a way.
0:15:10And so it's less exciting to do the next one or to solve that problem one more time.
0:15:17Yeah.
0:15:18And I mean, Overcast didn't have a way to change your account email address for its
0:15:24first, I think, four years of existence because I have written so many stupid login forms
0:15:30and password change forms and account change forms in my career.
0:15:34The last thing I wanted to do was write an email change form.
0:15:37And when I eventually decided to add, and I got emails about this from customers constantly
0:15:41for four years.
0:15:43And then when I finally made myself do it, I think it took like half a day to do change
0:15:49email, change password, forgot about, like all the things I was missing.
0:15:53I did it all on the website too, which was never there before.
0:15:56Like the only way to reset your password before was on device.
0:15:59So like I added all these things to the app and the website in like half a day and that
0:16:05took away this major four year long source of customer frustration and support emails.
0:16:10But for the first four years I couldn't motivate myself to do it because I'm like, I'm so bored
0:16:15of writing dumb web forms.
0:16:17Like this is the last thing I want to be doing is like account management and web forms.
0:16:21But you know, sometimes you have to.
0:16:22I mean, it's amazing how I think this is another one of my, one of my things where I feel like
0:16:27there's just some work that you just don't want to do.
0:16:31Like it can come into all manner of things.
0:16:34Like I think what you're talking about was sort of like account maintenance, like basic
0:16:38work that doesn't, it's like, it's useful, but it's not interesting.
0:16:43Maybe it's sort of admin work or it's necessary.
0:16:46Yeah.
0:16:47It's like, or I mean, some of the times you get into accounting, things are like this
0:16:50or testing or marketing.
0:16:51Like there's just certain kinds of work that a lot of times I just don't want to do and
0:16:58there's no one forcing me to do it.
0:17:00You know, it's not like there's, you know, my boss being like, well, you know, I told
0:17:04on Monday, I said, I needed you to do this and it's Friday.
0:17:06You haven't done it.
0:17:08Like if I just don't do it, well, I just don't do it.
0:17:10And I guess I reap the cost of that.
0:17:13But like in your case, you're having an increase in customer support, presumably because people
0:17:18don't know how to reset their passwords or things like that.
0:17:21But you feel that, but if it doesn't cross over the threshold where it's finally worth
0:17:26actually doing, if it's work you just don't want to do, you will never be, or it's very
0:17:30difficult to be motivated to do it.
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0:19:15FM.
0:19:16So I think another area of this that I think is worth unpacking, I think it's something
0:19:21that is sometimes, it's overlooked perhaps just because sometimes it's kind of tricky
0:19:26to talk about, I feel like is the way the impact that emotional state, family life,
0:19:31physical health, mental health can impact your work and your productivity, that I think
0:19:38it's sometimes, it would be nice to think of our work as like this thing that we do
0:19:45in isolation, that I go and I put on my programmer hat, I sit in my programmer chair with my
0:19:50programmer keyboard, and I do my programming.
0:19:52And like when I'm in that mode, I'm Mr. Programmer, and I can just do my programmer
0:19:58thing.
0:19:59But in reality, the work we're doing is something that is done in a broader context
0:20:05of our lives and is something that is dramatically impacted, I find, by what's going on around
0:20:12us, whether that be your family situation, your personal life, like there's a variety
0:20:16of things that can be distractions or motivational challenges there.
0:20:22Your physical health can impact this in terms of obviously, you know, the acute version
0:20:27of this where it's like you just you have the flu, so you can't work, but all the
0:20:30way up to just in general, if your health isn't as good, if you're having trouble
0:20:36in other parts of your health, it can be hard to work productively.
0:20:40And then similarly with mental health, like in terms of if you're dealing with depression,
0:20:43anxiety, those types of things, they can make and magnify challenges at work.
0:20:50And I think those are the thing that's slightly, especially challenging with any of those types
0:20:55of things is that I find it's hard for me to recognize them myself, or at least to recognize
0:21:03them right away, where like there'll be times that I'm having trouble working, and
0:21:07it's hard to be motivated.
0:21:09And I keep, it's sort of the, especially on the mental health side, like it can become
0:21:13very problematic where like I start beating myself up about being unproductive.
0:21:18And it turns out it's because I'm feeling depressed, because I'm feeling anxious,
0:21:22and feeling beating myself up about not working makes it worse.
0:21:27And so I think that's something certainly that is good to talk, good to just mention
0:21:31and to be, just understand that it's very likely that in our audience, there are many
0:21:35people who have those types of challenges, and understand that it's entirely natural
0:21:39and normal.
0:21:40And I think it's something that gets better is the best thing that I've found is where
0:21:46it's something that will, if you recognize it for what it is, in most of those areas,
0:21:53your physical health and as well as your mental health, you can start taking steps towards
0:21:57making it better for whatever that is.
0:22:00If it's you need to lose some weight on the physical side, there are means and ways
0:22:03to do that.
0:22:04If you need, on the mental health side, sometimes it's, you need to talk to someone about
0:22:09what's going on in your life, or go for a walk, or take more breaks, or whatever it
0:22:13is.
0:22:14There are ways to approach it, but I think it's important to be aware of it and to
0:22:18not try and partition out your work as something that's divorced from how you are outside
0:22:25of your work.
0:22:26Yeah, and that's largely one of the great benefits we have as people who work for ourselves
0:22:32who don't necessarily have fixed schedules or required work hours.
0:22:38Because lots of people, most people, have to just deal with any problem in their life,
0:22:46any factor that's distracting them or holding them back or making it hard for them to get
0:22:51work done, whether it's physical or mental or situational or stuff going on at home,
0:22:55whatever it is.
0:22:57Most people have to just plow through and go to work anyway, and it's really hard.
0:23:02Most of us have been there before.
0:23:04It's really hard to get through that when you have to go to a day job.
0:23:09Part of the reason why indie life is so awesome is that we have the flexibility to not necessarily
0:23:15work every day and not get fired.
0:23:19If you need to take a little while to just put your work in low power mode, where you're
0:23:25just doing the bare minimum to keep your business going and keep whatever is generating your
0:23:30income, keep that running but not put a whole lot of new work into it.
0:23:35You can go into low work mode for a little while to take care of some stuff that you
0:23:38need to take care of.
0:23:40If you need a little while to change something about your life or to deal with something
0:23:43in your personal life, some family stuff comes up or whatever, you can do that as an indie.
0:23:48And that's okay.
0:23:50Not only is that allowed, but that's just using one of the benefits of the indie life.
0:23:57So not only should you not feel bad about it, you should take advantage of it when necessary.
0:24:01Yeah.
0:24:02I think it's the same kind of thing.
0:24:04I'm really enjoying hearing your views on a lot of these things because I think it's
0:24:08very helpful to view many of these things as features and opportunities rather than
0:24:13as problematic.
0:24:14They're not bugs and drawbacks.
0:24:16They're features and opportunities.
0:24:18If you frame them in the right way, it's like so many of the things I find in indie
0:24:24life are this tricky balance because you have so much choice that's empowering in terms
0:24:37of what you can accomplish, but it's also terrifying in terms of the range of possibilities
0:24:42that you have to deal with.
0:24:44And I think there are in so many cases the best way out and the best way to just kind
0:24:51of try and frame what you're doing as an opportunity.
0:24:55How is this life that I—becoming an independent person is not an easy thing.
0:25:02It's inevitably taken a tremendous amount of work to get there.
0:25:05And risk.
0:25:06And risk.
0:25:07And you've had to really want it.
0:25:09And part of why that works is because you get these upsides on the other end, but I
0:25:15think it's so easy to forget that they're there and to forget that many of these things
0:25:21are just opportunities and you can take advantage of them in totally different and interesting
0:25:25ways than you would if you were stuck in a situation that you just have to keep performing
0:25:32on a regular basis indefinitely, irrespective of your motivation, irrespective of your productivity.
0:25:38And you can make that work, but it's problematic in other ways.
0:25:43Also, from a different angle, too, you might not be—if you're an indie now, you might
0:25:50not be an indie forever.
0:25:52You might have to or want to go back to working for someone else at some point.
0:25:57And so if you have things in your life you need to deal with, when you're an indie
0:26:02is the most opportune time to deal with them, because you might not have that chance down
0:26:07the road.
0:26:08If you decide to take a job somewhere else down the road where you have to be working
0:26:10there full time and everything else, you will have fewer chances down the road to address
0:26:15issues that you need to address in your own life or at home or whatever else.
0:26:18And so this is actually, if you're an indie, this is a good time to do that.
0:26:23Not only should you not feel bad about it, you should really do it now because you might
0:26:27have fewer opportunities later or it might be harder later.
0:26:30Yeah.
0:26:31No, I think that's an excellent point.
0:26:33There is so much of what we have.
0:26:40You can do whatever you want, which I guess is one of my other things that I find sometimes
0:26:44challenging for motivation is the lack of direction that we have as independents, where
0:26:48we can do anything.
0:26:49So I have no idea what I should do next.
0:26:53But there is something certainly empowering by that, of that sense that you can focus
0:26:59on whatever is most important in your life to work on at that moment, potentially.
0:27:06You can have a broader perspective of work isn't something that you do necessarily from
0:27:12nine to five.
0:27:13It's something that you do when it's the most important thing for you to be doing.
0:27:18And if that most important thing in an actual broad, sort of big I important sense for you
0:27:26is shifted somewhere else.
0:27:28So as a result, you have no motivation for work.
0:27:32It is lovely that you can focus on that other more important thing until work maybe boils
0:27:37up to become more important to you, or you can take care of that other thing or however
0:27:41that plays out.
0:27:42It is a wonderful opportunity to actually work on tasks in actual importance order rather
0:27:49than just in urgency order, where the work I do at my office is important or feels important
0:27:57because it is urgent and I have to do it for someone else versus it's important because
0:28:01it's what I need to do and what is best for me or my family or the people I care about
0:28:05more generally.
0:28:06- We are so fortunate in the situation that we're in, as I've said a few times already
0:28:10in this episode, we're so fortunate in the flexibility that we have that I feel like
0:28:15if you don't take advantage of that, you're almost wasting it.
0:28:18Not that you should feel bad about that either, but the difference between urgent versus important,
0:28:24there's lots of urgent stuff that comes up, things like a server being down or Apple making
0:28:29some last minute change and your app breaks on the new version of the OS or something
0:28:32like that.
0:28:33We have urgent stuff that happens, but most of the stuff that we can choose to do or have
0:28:38to do isn't urgent, so take advantage of that when you can.
0:28:43- Yeah, and I think too, and if you're Mr. Listener or Mrs. Listener or finding yourself
0:28:48in a place that you're struggling with motivation, you're dealing with these kind of things,
0:28:53and I think that it gets better.
0:28:55- And we all do, we all have this problem.
0:28:57- Yeah, this isn't like a imposter syndrome kind of a thing where you're gonna get found
0:29:02out that you struggle with motivation like everyone else.
0:29:06This is just part of the deal, and I think if anything, like this conversation with you,
0:29:11Marco, it's reminded me of the sense that working towards becoming independent has tremendous
0:29:17benefits.
0:29:19Many of those come with drawbacks, but the reality is those benefits are the things that
0:29:23allow us to really push through some of the challenges that we have because we have so
0:29:29much more flexibility and so many tools at our disposal to deal with that.
0:29:33And so it's like it'll get better, and then we'll hit another spurt where it's amazing
0:29:37productivity and you feel awesome and it comes again, and at some point, know that it's gonna
0:29:43swing back, so enjoy it while you got it, I suppose.
0:29:45- And know that it's okay.
0:29:46- Yeah.
0:29:47Thanks for listening and we'll talk to you next week.
0:29:49Bye.
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