0:00:00- We should do the intro.
0:00:01I suppose that's the question.
0:00:02(laughing)
0:00:04- I guess we didn't work all that out yet.
0:00:06- Didn't work that out, it's fine, it's all right.
0:00:07- All right, so this is episode one of Under the Radar.
0:00:10I'm Marco Arment.
0:00:12- And I'm David Smith.
0:00:13- You may know our other podcasts.
0:00:15David has been doing Developing Perspective for many years.
0:00:20I did Build and Analyze first,
0:00:21now I do the Accidental Tech podcast and Top Four.
0:00:24And this is gonna be a show about development, basically.
0:00:29It's kind of like the sequel, the combination of build and analyze with developing perspective.
0:00:36And in the spirit of developing perspective, never being longer than 15 minutes, David,
0:00:40how long is this show going to be?
0:00:41Never longer than 30 minutes.
0:00:43So let's get started.
0:00:44Let's get started.
0:00:45I think the place to start seems, right now, we're recording just after the Apple TV app
0:00:50store launched.
0:00:53And it went online I think on last Friday and it's had the usual fanfare and the things
0:00:59that go on with that.
0:01:00But neither one of us launched anything on day one.
0:01:04And for myself, it's the first Apple product I've ever not been in the store on day one
0:01:08for, which is interesting.
0:01:11Yeah, I'm the same way, I think.
0:01:13I mean, I was there for the watch and the Apple TV and I even got one of the early access
0:01:20developer units because I thought I might use it and it just literally sat on my desk
0:01:25and I was so busy doing other things because I was working on Overcast and trying to get
0:01:31the 2.0 update out the door. And that kind of precluded this because if I'm going to
0:01:35make an Apple TV app it has to be all about streaming because local storage with the Apple
0:01:39TV is so limited and I didn't have the streaming engine done yet. So I worked on the iPhone
0:01:45and I've been doing bug fixes on that since,
0:01:48and I have literally not even opened
0:01:51like an Xcode project with the TV.
0:01:54I haven't even seen the TV simulator.
0:01:56I have not written a single line of TV code yet.
0:01:59Have you?
0:02:00- Yeah, I got a developer kit as well,
0:02:02and I wrote a version of Pod Wrangler, my podcast client,
0:02:07for the Apple TV, and it works, and it plays.
0:02:12I didn't spend the time and energy
0:02:14get it ready for day one, though.
0:02:16But it's an interesting developer platform because it is essentially iOS, just minus
0:02:21a bunch of stuff.
0:02:23There's a couple of new things, but essentially it's just iOS UI kits with a different input
0:02:28mechanism rather than obviously being touch-based.
0:02:31It's remote control-based.
0:02:32But I used it, and it's fine and easy.
0:02:36The thing that ultimately I think slowed me down, though, is I just became...
0:02:41There's just so much else to do and so many other things that, like, if I'm trying to
0:02:46be on every Apple platform as a one-man shop, it's essentially impossible now.
0:02:51And so I looked at the Apple TV and I'm like, "It's gonna be a long time before there's
0:02:53a big market there."
0:02:56And so I just didn't prioritize it.
0:02:58Yeah, and, you know, and I feel like, you know, we're coming at this from two different
0:03:02viewpoints here.
0:03:03You know, I tend to work on a very small, I tend to work on usually one app for a span
0:03:08of years.
0:03:09I very rarely have additional apps.
0:03:12I'm not very good at splitting my time
0:03:13between multiple apps.
0:03:15I pretty much just do one thing,
0:03:16and I try to make that one app big and complicated
0:03:19and appeal to a ton of people in order to keep it going.
0:03:23Whereas the background you come from is,
0:03:26I think, much more interesting, honestly,
0:03:28because when people, and this is one of the reasons
0:03:31I wanted to do the show with you,
0:03:32and one of the reasons I wanted to call it Under the Radar,
0:03:35because when people do,
0:03:37when people think about Apple developers,
0:03:39tend to think about the handful of well-known ones who make mass consumer apps that you
0:03:46may have heard of. So apps like Tweetbot or Net News Wire or the apps from Panic that
0:03:51a lot of developers have heard of or use or are wowed by. And there's this massive number
0:03:56of developers who we don't usually hear about in this circle of Apple enthusiasts and tech
0:04:03and stuff, and I think you are a very, very good example
0:04:07of this massive market, and I think you do it better
0:04:11than most people would do it.
0:04:13And so what you do is not like the high profile,
0:04:18you know, high attention, Mac, blogger,
0:04:23long term ecosystem kind of thing.
0:04:27You do something way more pragmatic.
0:04:29And so can you maybe just go into that briefly
0:04:33for anyone who doesn't know you yet,
0:04:35who's listening to this for some reason.
0:04:37Can you go into what exactly you do and how you got there?
0:04:40- So I've been an iOS developer essentially
0:04:44since the App Store started, about seven and a bit years ago.
0:04:47I didn't quite make the day one of the App Store,
0:04:50mostly because of business approval stuff.
0:04:54But I've been developing ever since then.
0:04:55And since then, I've launched,
0:04:58I think I recently worked this out,
0:05:00something like 52 unique app concepts in the last seven years.
0:05:05So it works out to be about one every two months or so.
0:05:08It hasn't been exactly that even of a pace, but that's roughly the average.
0:05:13But I've been making a good, steady, comfortable living from it for about six and a half of
0:05:19those seven years.
0:05:21And so I have lots of different products in a lot of different areas.
0:05:25I tend to, like at this point, I have probably five or six
0:05:29that are like my main income makers,
0:05:32and they each, the biggest one of them
0:05:34only makes up a third of my income.
0:05:36So it's a very diversified type of thing.
0:05:38And that's my, the approach that I found
0:05:40that works well for me is to make lots of small bets
0:05:45and see which one pays off in the store
0:05:48rather than trying to take the approach.
0:05:50Like with Overcast, if I remember right,
0:05:51it's like you spend 18 months working on it.
0:05:54- Yeah.
0:05:55as like a big major focus.
0:05:56And like for me, the longest I've ever spent
0:05:58on a product before I launched it is probably four weeks
0:06:02or something along those lines.
0:06:03And so it's a very different kind of a focus
0:06:06where I'll put something together,
0:06:07I'll put it out in the store,
0:06:07I try and make it like good in quality
0:06:10but very straightforward and see what happens.
0:06:15And that approach means that I end up now
0:06:17with lots of different products,
0:06:19doing a lot of different things.
0:06:20And as it's, you know, I have the benefit of diversity
0:06:24in terms of stability, but the difficulty in terms
0:06:27of keeping up with things when I have such a wide
0:06:29sort of portfolio to manage.
0:06:32- And one thing I like about the way you work as well
0:06:36is that you challenge assumptions that many of us
0:06:41in the other half of this community don't challenge.
0:06:45Like you will, you make your income in part from IAD.
0:06:49I don't know anybody else.
0:06:51I don't think I have any other developer friends
0:06:53who have a meaningful presence using iAds, and you do.
0:06:57And you will challenge assumptions based on things
0:07:00like monetization, support, app concepts, design,
0:07:05all sorts of stuff that you challenge.
0:07:07And I think you benefit from that,
0:07:09because while everyone else is locked into this one way
0:07:14of thinking and trying to shape the app store into,
0:07:19like trying to educate consumers into the way
0:07:22they think the App Store should be,
0:07:24you are out there actually adapting and thriving
0:07:28in what the App Store actually is.
0:07:30- Yeah, I mean, I think I try and think of,
0:07:33when I look at the App Store,
0:07:34I guess at business in general,
0:07:36I can't change my customers.
0:07:40All I can do is react to them, for the most part.
0:07:44Using things like people who should want to pay for software
0:07:49as a statement, it doesn't make any sense to me.
0:07:52People are going to want to do whatever they want to do.
0:07:55My job as a developer, as a businessman,
0:07:56is to look at the market that I wanna work in
0:08:00and find ways to adapt my business to it.
0:08:03And I don't just use IAD or advertising.
0:08:05I make the majority of my income from advertising in IAD.
0:08:09And that's in some ways been far more stable
0:08:13than any of the more paid or subscription or patronage
0:08:16or all the other things that I have.
0:08:18The most stable income I get is from advertising.
0:08:21And I love it because advertising's great because it aligns developer and customer goals.
0:08:28My goal is to get them using the app as much as I can because the more they use it, the
0:08:32more advertising income I make.
0:08:34And if they're using the app a lot, that means they like it.
0:08:37And so for me, it was a no-brainer to get started, but it definitely is, I know what
0:08:39you mean.
0:08:40It's a bit counter to, I think, a lot of the...
0:08:43It's not necessarily pretentiousness, but there's definitely that air of you want to
0:08:50to sell an Apple-like product in the App Store, but that doesn't necessarily work because
0:08:56Apple doesn't even sell Apple-like products in the App Store.
0:09:00- Yeah, and I think this was all rooted in the community of nice, craft, Mac-independent
0:09:10developers that has existed for quite some time on the Mac before iOS and everything
0:09:14became really so big. People like Panic or Delicious Monster, people like that, Brent
0:09:20Simmons, Dave Watanabe, there's this crowd of like kind of old school, the old guard
0:09:25who have been around for a while, you know Omni Group is a big one, who have been very
0:09:28successful at this and many of them continue to be very successful at this, but there was
0:09:33this idea for so long that many people still hold that that would translate into iOS and
0:09:39that also any developer who would be able to program iOS apps would kind of think that
0:09:45that they deserved that same level of success
0:09:48if they either just got there at all
0:09:51or if they put a lot of work into something.
0:09:54And there's many problems with this
0:09:56that are way too long to discuss in a 30-minute podcast,
0:09:59one of which is that the amount of work
0:10:02you put into something does not correlate
0:10:03to the value that the market will place on it
0:10:05or the amount of money you can make from it.
0:10:08But I think it's productive to challenge this notion
0:10:12of like, well, you know, is this really the way
0:10:15the world should work?
0:10:16And regardless of whether I think it should work this way,
0:10:20if this is not the way the world works,
0:10:22like in practice, what can I do as a developer
0:10:26to succeed in this market?
0:10:29And sitting around waiting for the market to change
0:10:31to benefit you is probably not very productive
0:10:34'cause that's just unlikely to happen.
0:10:36- Yeah, and the interesting thing,
0:10:38I was wondering what you think about this
0:10:40'cause I'm seeing the spread of your app career
0:10:44in the App Store, like you're starting an Instapaper,
0:10:46which was paid up front $10, if I remember right?
0:10:49- Yeah, the whole first year it was 10 bucks,
0:10:50and I dropped it to five, yeah.
0:10:52- And then it's like following the progression,
0:10:53then I think your income started to shift in some ways
0:10:56more to subscription and in-app purchase,
0:11:00and then switching entirely to Overcast,
0:11:04where it became, it was free with in-app purchase
0:11:07for features, and then now it's entirely free
0:11:10with like patronage support,
0:11:13you've essentially followed the trajectory
0:11:17of the App Store in that way, right?
0:11:19You're starting with like the old school kind of,
0:11:23well, it's premium software, I should charge a lot of money,
0:11:26to it's still good software,
0:11:28but the way you pay for it is completely different.
0:11:31- Right, and most of that has again just been because
0:11:34I am like, I'm not like thinking I'm like,
0:11:37treading new ground and being an explorer.
0:11:40no I'm usually coming to these changes late actually.
0:11:43Like Instapaper, holding the price at $10
0:11:46for the whole first year was a mistake.
0:11:48When I dropped it to five, sales went up considerably.
0:11:50And then later on it dropped to three I think,
0:11:53I held it for a while, three or four.
0:11:54And then sales were pretty good then,
0:11:57I started experimenting and then shifting to subscription,
0:12:00that ended up making way more money
0:12:03than I thought it would and doing very well.
0:12:05And then with Overcast coming out at free
0:12:08with in-app purchase and now with patronage,
0:12:10like those have all done better than I expected them to.
0:12:13And this is all about just adapting to what the market is.
0:12:17Many people blame the market on Apple
0:12:22not implementing upgrade pricing
0:12:24or the App Store not having good enough discovery or search.
0:12:28And all of those things are valid complaints,
0:12:30but they're not the biggest problem.
0:12:32The biggest problem is there's just a huge oversupply
0:12:36of developers and apps who are all trying to compete
0:12:39for the same dollars and the same roles
0:12:41and the same time and attention.
0:12:43And so, you know, back in the olden days,
0:12:45when you'd have like Panic and Omni selling Mac apps
0:12:48for 50 bucks, that worked in part because of what they were
0:12:52and what people use Macs for and who was buying Macs,
0:12:55but also that worked in part because there just weren't
0:12:58that many developers doing it.
0:12:59If you would have had 10,000 developers trying to make
0:13:02the same handful of nice consumer high profile Mac apps, you would have had the exact same
0:13:07problem back then. It isn't that the market has gotten stupider or cheaper or anything
0:13:14like that, it's that this is now the mass market of what developers do. It wasn't.
0:13:19Back in 2006, most developers weren't working on Mac apps. Now, most developers are working
0:13:26on iOS and web apps. I think the shift from web to iOS apps is really pretty significant.
0:13:32And so if you think about it,
0:13:35that's what so many developers are working on.
0:13:38Of course there's gonna be a massive oversupply,
0:13:40and of course there's gonna be tons of competition,
0:13:42and a race to the bottom in pricing.
0:13:44And that's not because Apple is doing something wrong.
0:13:48Apple is not helping in certain ways,
0:13:50but they're not the cause of this problem.
0:13:51And again, pragmatically, it is useful to think of yourself,
0:13:56not as somebody who all you need to do
0:13:59is ship a nicely designed polished app
0:14:03and money will start flowing in.
0:14:05But as somebody who has to really fight,
0:14:08like really work hard and fight hard and be lean
0:14:12to try to attract any kind of attention
0:14:15and any kind of money from what is a very crowded
0:14:18hyper-competitive market.
0:14:20- And I think it's also the biggest trap
0:14:22that I know I struggled with for years
0:14:24was this feeling of overvaluing my own work,
0:14:29that if I spent a long time working on something,
0:14:31that everybody should then sort of,
0:14:34somehow intrinsically that makes it more valuable to people.
0:14:39That they look at something and it's like,
0:14:40whereas when people are gonna part with money
0:14:44in whatever form that is,
0:14:46or I guess part with something,
0:14:47like their attention, their money,
0:14:49they're exchanging something for that.
0:14:52Like they need to feel like
0:14:53they're getting something in return.
0:14:55And the funny thing is, I think a lot of people think that software intrinsically should feel
0:15:03valuable.
0:15:04Like, as the classic, "Oh, they will spend $5 on a latte, but they won't spend $5 on
0:15:08my app."
0:15:09And it's like, well, maybe they actually want the latte more than they want your app.
0:15:13Like your app may not actually be that valuable to them, and that's why they don't want to
0:15:17spend that money on it.
0:15:18Like you have to be able to wrap your arms around what they're actually buying with that.
0:15:23Is it entertainment?
0:15:24Is it productivity?
0:15:26Is it amusement?
0:15:29Are they exchanging goodwill for money?
0:15:31I think when you start to get into, like I have an app with a tip jar in it, or you have
0:15:36patronage in Overcast now, your extents there, you're providing a mechanism for people to
0:15:40exchange goodwill for money is really what you're doing there.
0:15:44And unless you're able to really wrap your arms around that, it's hard to really be okay
0:15:48with saying, "That's okay.
0:15:49I do advertising because for a lot of my apps, the app itself isn't particularly valuable
0:15:55to the person.
0:15:56It's useful, but it's not necessarily valuable in a way that for a lot of people, they would
0:16:01want to put money into it directly.
0:16:03Once they use it for a while and like it, they are willing to spend money, but they're
0:16:09not spending money for the functionality.
0:16:11They're spending money to be able to express the goodwill they have towards me for the
0:16:14benefit I've given them, but that's different than it being intrinsically valuable to them.
0:16:20Because when they started, they didn't see it as valuable.
0:16:22They wanted it to be free.
0:16:23And if it wasn't free, I don't think, like, my pedometer app, Pedometer++, wouldn't have
0:16:28sold at all, or at least not in large quantity that it has to this point.
0:16:32Yeah, and even as a consumer of apps now, I find myself, even as somebody who has been
0:16:37a proponent of paid apps for so long and sold one for so long, when I search for something
0:16:42in the App Store and I see the search results list,
0:16:45if I needed something that I'm not looking for
0:16:47a specific name, where I'm just looking for
0:16:49a specific type of app, so a pedometer,
0:16:51a step count or whatever, if I searched the App Store
0:16:54and the first 20 entries in the search are all free,
0:16:58and entry number 21 is four bucks,
0:17:01that one doesn't stand a chance.
0:17:03And that's just the reality of how people
0:17:06search the App Store, and it's very important,
0:17:09as you said, to recognize that.
0:17:12And to recognize that not every app
0:17:16that every developer makes is going to be worth
0:17:20a non-trivial number of customers
0:17:22spending $2 on it or whatever.
0:17:24I mean, I've seen so many apps that do things
0:17:27that I don't really need.
0:17:29So many apps that are things like coffee timers.
0:17:33Well, if a coffee timer is really good and it's free,
0:17:36I might use it, or I can just use the built-in timer
0:17:41on the device that's not as good, but it works.
0:17:44And I think a lot of people go through
0:17:45a similar kind of thought process of,
0:17:47you know, if free is such a different barrier
0:17:50than any price, and if you're looking at an app,
0:17:54the alternative isn't just every other app
0:17:56that's in the store that does that same thing,
0:17:58the alternative is also just non-consumption,
0:18:01it's not buying the app at all, not buying any app,
0:18:04and just going without that role in your life.
0:18:06And as we get more and more and more apps in the store,
0:18:10which is only, you know, that's been going on forever now,
0:18:13as we get more and more apps in the store
0:18:15and more and more demands for people's attention
0:18:16and more alternatives that they can do,
0:18:19like if they don't download your app,
0:18:20they can go check Twitter for a few minutes or play a game.
0:18:24And as we get more and more of those things,
0:18:26more and more competition for everything,
0:18:28non-consumption is also a big problem.
0:18:30And so anything you can do to address non-consumption,
0:18:34to address people just bailing out
0:18:35and abandoning this search or this idea
0:18:37they might have had that this thing they wanted to do,
0:18:39And going free is a huge hit against that.
0:18:43If you can remove that barrier of price up front,
0:18:46then it's so much easier for people to say,
0:18:48"You know what, yeah, I'll give it a try."
0:18:50- And it's, I guess, and the reality is
0:18:52that's how I think we've both been able to continue
0:18:56in the App Store at this point.
0:18:57I mean, we've been doing it for a long time.
0:18:59'Cause I, anecdotally, it seems like fewer and fewer
0:19:04smaller or more independent companies
0:19:07and where people are able to do it.
0:19:09And I do think a lot of it is that it's a lack of pragmatism,
0:19:12that a lack of just like, what is it gonna take
0:19:15to make a living in this market?
0:19:17And if you ultimately don't like the answer to that,
0:19:19if you're in your mind, you only wanna sell software
0:19:22in like a premium app store, it's like, okay,
0:19:24well you might need to do something else then,
0:19:26because that may not exist.
0:19:28- Yeah, and you need to be in the right place
0:19:29at the right time.
0:19:30If you want that, you know, if you will not budge in that,
0:19:32like so right now, so getting back for a second
0:19:34to the Apple TV, which just came out now,
0:19:37the Apple TV app store has almost nothing in it.
0:19:39it is very, very sparse.
0:19:41And if you are looking for something,
0:19:44so I got this Apple TV, I plugged it in, set it up,
0:19:47and I went right to the App Store to say,
0:19:49"Hey, what can I get here?"
0:19:50And I saw a couple of basics, you know,
0:19:52Netflix, HBO Now, whatever, and then,
0:19:54"Okay, let me try some games.
0:19:56"I got this cool thing, I'm in the mood
0:19:57"of trying new things, let me go to the App Store
0:19:59"and try some games."
0:20:01And I went and I spent, I don't know,
0:20:0210 bucks maybe total on a couple of games,
0:20:05and I didn't even think about it,
0:20:07because I'm in this buying mood,
0:20:08because I just got this new device, it's brand new,
0:20:10has me excited, and also there's hardly anything
0:20:13there to buy.
0:20:14And of the very small number of games that were there to buy
0:20:17almost all of them I think were paid,
0:20:20or at least many of them were.
0:20:21So I had no problem spending that money
0:20:24because of the context of this isn't a tremendous app store
0:20:28filled with millions of apps, most of which are free.
0:20:31This is a very, very small app store that, right now,
0:20:35that has only very few apps on it.
0:20:37And that's the reason I was able to charge 10 bucks
0:20:40for Instapaper in 2008, but then I couldn't in 2009
0:20:43'cause the App Store was too full.
0:20:44That's gonna happen with the Apple TV also.
0:20:47If this thing takes off, if this succeeds,
0:20:49and it looks like it's probably going to,
0:20:51I mean it might take a few years before it has like
0:20:53tons and tons of units out there,
0:20:55but it's probably going to succeed.
0:20:57And if that happens, or as that happens,
0:20:59the App Store is gonna be way more crowded than it is now,
0:21:03and it is going to get harder and harder to sell games
0:21:06and apps for the Apple TV for money
0:21:08once there is competition for that same role
0:21:11in people's lives.
0:21:13And so if you were gonna be the kind of person
0:21:15who wanted to sell a premium app for money,
0:21:18you just had a window to do that on the Apple TV.
0:21:21Almost no one has taken up that opportunity.
0:21:23But you just had that opportunity right now
0:21:26and it won't come again on the Apple TV probably ever.
0:21:29Like this product has now done that
0:21:31and it probably won't come again.
0:21:33And so you have to wait 'til the next big wave
0:21:35and you have to be in one of those positions where
0:21:38if you're not going to be the kind of person
0:21:42who can thrive in an ultra competitive,
0:21:44low priced environment like the web has pretty much
0:21:47always been and like the iOS app store is now,
0:21:50then you have to follow the trend and be early to things.
0:21:54Be there on day one when new things happen.
0:21:56Be able to figure out and guess which new things
0:21:59will take off which is a hugely risky process
0:22:01that you will often get wrong and it will often
0:22:03go completely to waste.
0:22:05and be there in those less competitive markets.
0:22:08But then as soon as the market becomes more competitive,
0:22:10you have to either adapt or leave.
0:22:12- Yeah, and I think the difficulty honestly with Apple TV
0:22:14and why I, well I think I agree that like the best time
0:22:16to have sold big software would have been like
0:22:19if being there on day one.
0:22:20My suspicion is the narrowness of the window
0:22:23where there's gonna have that kind of general rush
0:22:26in people being okay with buying things
0:22:29is narrow enough that I'm very skeptical
0:22:32if it would actually be financially successful
0:22:35for most people, that if they had spent a lot of time,
0:22:39made a nice big premium game or something like that,
0:22:42especially designed specifically for the Apple TV,
0:22:45the window in which they were gonna be able to sell
0:22:48into a kind of a premium group of people,
0:22:50like people who obviously were excited enough
0:22:52about the product to get it on day one,
0:22:54they're very, they've just spent, in Apple terms,
0:22:58a relatively small amount of money for it.
0:23:00They're not nearly as expensive as a lot
0:23:03other products that, you know, like an iPhone is $700 or something, whereas this is $100
0:23:07and something, or $200.
0:23:09And so that window is going to be very narrow.
0:23:12And so if your app requires that you then have big sustained sales over the next few
0:23:21months, my suspicion is that's going to be a losing proposition.
0:23:26And so that's interesting.
0:23:28And the Apple TV, I think, will be a nice,
0:23:32sort of in many ways like the watch.
0:23:34It's just an add-on to the main product that Apple sells,
0:23:38like which is the iPhone.
0:23:39It's like the iPad in many ways, the watch,
0:23:42now the Apple TV.
0:23:43These are all just add-ons to the iOS ecosystem
0:23:46that exists for the iPhone.
0:23:48- Yeah, and I think the value that you can get
0:23:53out of being there, I think you make a very good point
0:23:55about that window being fairly narrow.
0:23:57I think how narrow it is depends on how easy it is to develop for it and how many people
0:24:03realize how quickly they need to be developing for it or they want to be developing for it.
0:24:08So with the iPhone, that was very, very quick, really, because the iPhone already had a massive
0:24:13installed base.
0:24:14There was tons of pent-up demand to develop for it and people knocked the doors down to
0:24:17get there.
0:24:18Most platforms don't work that way.
0:24:21The watch, I think, has kind of fizzled out.
0:24:24The watch, I think, is kind of at a standstill right now.
0:24:25I don't know of any really interesting stuff
0:24:28that's happened on the watch in the last month, say.
0:24:30You know, it seems like not a lot is going on there,
0:24:33and we'll talk about that in future episodes, I'm sure.
0:24:35- Yeah.
0:24:36- And the TV is now out, but it's starting
0:24:38from an installed base of zero for a product
0:24:41that people are excited about, but not so excited
0:24:43that they're gonna go out and like,
0:24:45raid all the stores and deplete all the stock on day one.
0:24:47So it's gonna, that's gonna have a slower buildup.
0:24:50And so if that buildup is slower,
0:24:52also on the developer supply side,
0:24:53where fewer developers are jumping in,
0:24:55so soon, so quickly, then I think you do have
0:24:58a wider window, like I would say the biggest sales day
0:25:02for Apple TV apps this year is gonna be
0:25:03the day after Christmas, and if you are there,
0:25:06I think you can still sell a nice $10 game
0:25:09the day after Christmas in big volumes this year,
0:25:12but probably not next year.
0:25:14- We'll see, yeah, I would say I'm more
0:25:17on the skeptical side of that, but I think you're right
0:25:19insofar as that's a reasonable, it's going to,
0:25:23this next few months will be interesting for it.
0:25:26And I think the Apple TV,
0:25:28I will ultimately develop for it though,
0:25:30and which is probably a good place to wrap up,
0:25:31is to say, I expect to make apps for it,
0:25:34mostly because having a nicely rich,
0:25:38it's a checkbox that I can check
0:25:41for some of my applications to say,
0:25:43make them just that little bit more appealing to somebody.
0:25:46If someone was on the fence about downloading my app,
0:25:48and they're like, oh, it'll work for the Apple TV, awesome,
0:25:51then it's like that little, little thing.
0:25:53But it's not a priority for me insofar as I don't think
0:25:56it's gonna ever be a primary driver for my business.
0:25:58It's like same as the watch.
0:26:00I make watch apps for a lot of my apps,
0:26:01mostly just so that it's like,
0:26:02if someone, for the narrow group of people,
0:26:04for that's all they needed to go over the edge,
0:26:07then it was worthwhile for me.
0:26:08But in and of itself, it's probably not.
0:26:10- Yeah, and that could be a whole episode right there.
0:26:13And I totally agree with everything you just said
0:26:15that I'm also, I expect to launch Xcode for the first time
0:26:19make an Apple TV app probably this week. I'd like to see how easy it is to get Overcast
0:26:24to run on it. But again, it's like, it's kind of a value add, to use a business term, I'm
0:26:28sorry. It's kind of that for Overcast on iOS in general rather than like, I don't expect
0:26:34to make a lot of money on the Apple TV by itself. But anyway, we are running out of
0:26:37time this week so we want to keep the show nice and short so people can listen to it
0:26:41quickly and don't feel overloaded by it. So, let's wrap it up this week. David, thank you
0:26:46I guess? I don't know. We've never done an ending before. We don't have a song. So what
0:26:50are we going to do? Just stop?
0:26:52>>
0:26:53All right. Thanks for listening, whoever's listening to this. And hopefully we will see
0:26:57you again for the next episode.
0:26:58>>
0:26:58Yep. See you under the radar.
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