0:00:00This episode of Cortex is brought to you by Indeed.
0:00:02- Okay, let's go.
0:00:04Let's rock and roll.
0:00:05Episode two.
0:00:06So I don't need to do levels, levels for this episode
0:00:10because we are recording this episode
0:00:13directly after the previous episode.
0:00:16- Yeah.
0:00:17Well, we've taken a 45 minute break for refueling,
0:00:20but we are straight back into it
0:00:22because obviously this is now an episode out of time.
0:00:25- Right.
0:00:26- This is an episode out of time five.
0:00:28- Okay.
0:00:29I'd like to petition this one to be called "Episode" but replace "S" with a "5"
0:00:34So it's "Episode" out of time, "Epi-5" you know?
0:00:38"Epi-5-0" out of time?
0:00:40Yeah, well you still say it as "Episode"
0:00:41Why do you say it "Episode"?
0:00:42I don't know if you are familiar with the Fast and Furious franchise?
0:00:46You take one wild guess, Myke.
0:00:48Okay, I'm...
0:00:49Mmm...
0:00:50You've definitely heard of it.
0:00:52I'm a superfan.
0:00:53I love- I've seen every single one.
0:00:55Are you being serious?
0:00:56And I love them.
0:00:57Yeah, yeah.
0:00:58and cars. Well they do now. What more could you want? Okay well that's... So but why do
0:01:05you pronounce episode with a five as episode? Because this is a thing in these types of
0:01:11movies where they start hiding the numbers inside of the name. It's not really hidden
0:01:17though. Right but like as in it's not the episode at the time five the five is still
0:01:22there but it's like put inside something else. Okay. Anyway I think they did this at some
0:01:26point oh yeah too fast too furious okay they used the number two instead of the word two this is like
0:01:32fan four stick the fantastic four movie with all of that stuff yes that is that's the thing that
0:01:37i'm going for but in general i'm going for like fast and furious type naming with these okay sure
0:01:43so i think maybe like the next one we like reboot the entire show because i think that's what happens
0:01:49like at some point well i think fast five which is where we're at kind of now in the lore i guess i
0:01:54I think this is when the rock joins.
0:01:56No, Fast and Furious 6 is just Fast and Furious 6.
0:01:59They don't try to hide it, right?
0:02:01They're not like, Fix Sticks and Furious 6, right?
0:02:05They don't do anything like that.
0:02:06You'll be super upset to know then that because of coronavirus, they've pushed for F9 11 months.
0:02:13Oh, okay.
0:02:14It was supposed to come out in May this year, and it's now gonna come out in April 2021.
0:02:20I don't understand.
0:02:21I need continuing plot threads for Shaw and, you know, what's going on with him.
0:02:26This is like, I, my mind is blown right now.
0:02:28I genuinely am not sure if you're being serious or not.
0:02:32Well, I don't know why I would ever, I don't know why I would mess with you on this kind
0:02:36of thing.
0:02:37Like that's not, that's not what I would do.
0:02:38But anyway, like that seems ridiculous that they're pushing it back that much as a fantastic
0:02:42head as we're called.
0:02:44A fast head.
0:02:48I demand.
0:02:49The Fast and Furious community is up in arms.
0:02:52I don't even understand, have they not finished filming?
0:02:55No it's done.
0:02:56It was coming out in May.
0:02:57Oh, okay, so they haven't run across Gal Gadot's filming schedule?
0:03:02No.
0:03:03They've just decided to move it, because no one's going to the cinema right now.
0:03:08Some of the movies have been moved to later in the year, so the new James Bond movie got
0:03:12moved to November, right?
0:03:13It was supposed to come out in April.
0:03:15But it was kind of funny because in the announcement they're like, "We decided to just slightly
0:03:19delay the movie.
0:03:20It will now be coming out in 11 months."
0:03:23Which seems like, you know, really obviously they know that for whatever reason, April/May
0:03:29is the best time for a Fast and Furious movie to come out.
0:03:32So they're not going to move it to the holidays because that's not obviously when they feel
0:03:35these movies are good, so they're going to push it all the way back around again.
0:03:39And they're probably just trying to avoid Marvel and stuff like that would be my expectation.
0:03:43Right, right. Okay. Alright, that makes sense. I'm sitting here like a total dummy thinking
0:03:48it was something with the production, but no, of course, it's the fact that we can't
0:03:52have people in movie theaters because there's a pandemic. Because we're still recording
0:03:57on the actual day that we recorded the last episode, it's a little bit of, as we were
0:04:02discussing before that episode, still thinking we're just in the timeframe when people
0:04:07act like the general population has gen has become concerned about this and so anything
0:04:13could have happened by the time this episode comes out anything could have happened by
0:04:16the time this comes out but also even for me my brain is is still not quite processing
0:04:21why are you delaying your movie oh right because movie theaters are not a lot of thing don't
0:04:27go to them but anyway episode out five wait episode out of time five no i've hidden the
0:04:33- We're five in the wrong place.
0:04:35- Epified ode out of time.
0:04:37That's the episode that we're doing today.
0:04:40- Cortexmerch.com.
0:04:42- Cortexmerch.com.
0:04:45- Oh, that was a good one.
0:04:47I like that one.
0:04:48We are doing merch for one specific reason,
0:04:51and then we also had another good idea.
0:04:53This is episode 99 of Cortex, which is--
0:04:57- Can you believe it?
0:04:57We've done so many of these.
0:04:59- As I just said that, I couldn't believe it.
0:05:01So our next episode is going to be episode 100.
0:05:04So on sale right now at cortexmerch.com, a 100th episode commemorative t-shirt.
0:05:11It is my favorite t-shirt design that we have ever come up with.
0:05:16Our designer Simon completely knocked it out of the park.
0:05:18It is a Cortex logo that looks like an app and it has an unread
0:05:23badge of 100, which is so, so good.
0:05:26It's perfect.
0:05:27I have to say Simon always does great work.
0:05:30But this one in particular, I think I have never had a shorter amount of time between
0:05:37how long did it take my brain to visually process what I'm looking at for a t-shirt
0:05:41design and how fast was I like double thumbs up.
0:05:44I love this.
0:05:45Like it's just instantly legible and I totally love it.
0:05:48It's a, it's such a great idea for the commemorative 100 episode t-shirt.
0:05:54It's absolutely perfect.
0:05:55It's absolutely perfect.
0:05:56We loved it so much that we're gonna offer this one in a couple of different things. So we're doing the regular t-shirt
0:06:03We also have a cortex 100 episode commemorative t-pro, which is a mega special
0:06:08Foil printed version. So the the unread badge the red unread badge is going to be printed in foil, right?
0:06:15It is more of an expensive item. We've done this before we had a gold leaf
0:06:23Just to be clear, if you have the gold Cortex shirts, it's not gold leaf.
0:06:30It's just gold foil.
0:06:32It's 24 karat gold.
0:06:36I love wearing that one.
0:06:37I have one of those and I like it very much.
0:06:39But yeah, that is a more expensive version because it's getting much, much more complicated
0:06:44printing method.
0:06:45There's a reason Pro stuff is more expensive and this is because it's made with shiny red
0:06:50gold foil.
0:06:52That's amazing.
0:06:53We're also doing stickers.
0:06:55I don't think we've ever sold stickers before, but again, I like this artwork so much that
0:06:59I thought it should live in a few different ways.
0:07:00So you can get a two-pack of some stickers.
0:07:03Those are limited though.
0:07:04So the t-shirts we're doing, the typical pre-order that we do with t-shirts, so we'll make as
0:07:08many as we sell, but we have a limited amount of the stickers.
0:07:12So just as an FYI, so if you like the sticker, don't wait.
0:07:15Get it.
0:07:16And then we also have something that I'm very excited about.
0:07:18It seemed inevitable at this point, a levels levels t-shirt.
0:07:22Look at who's come around to Levels Levels.
0:07:24That's you, Myke.
0:07:25Levels Levels is amazing and it deserves to be a t-shirt.
0:07:29- I don't think I ever had a problem with Levels Levels.
0:07:32I think it was just surprising.
0:07:35It was just the surprising thing to come across.
0:07:38But I have standardized now that that is the way
0:07:40that podcasters should greet each other.
0:07:42So yeah, we have a Levels Levels t-shirt
0:07:44in a variety of wonderful colors.
0:07:47You can see all of these and buy all of these right now
0:07:49at cortexmerch.com.
0:07:51These are only available for two weeks.
0:07:53We won't be reminding you again,
0:07:54so if you wanna go get them, go get them.
0:07:57The sale will be over of these shirts
0:07:59before our 100th episode.
0:08:01So maybe some of you might even,
0:08:03they might be on the way to you
0:08:04by the time our episode comes out, you know,
0:08:06or you could just wait a little bit,
0:08:07get your T-shirt, put your T-shirt on
0:08:09and listen to episode 100,
0:08:11which I can't believe we're approaching.
0:08:13- I know, so many Cortex episodes, Myke.
0:08:16The number is so, it's so high.
0:08:18- The number is large.
0:08:19I'm not even sure there's any other podcast that has a number as big as 100.
0:08:23It's, it's just like a shocking.
0:08:24I just recorded episode 400 of the pen addict.
0:08:27Like two weeks ago.
0:08:29Do you know though?
0:08:31Great.
0:08:32Like we are just a couple of months away from having worked
0:08:35on this project for five years.
0:08:37Really?
0:08:39Yeah.
0:08:39That's a long time.
0:08:40June, 2015 was our first episode.
0:08:43Oh my God.
0:08:45That was a different man back then.
0:08:48We both were.
0:08:49Yeah, who were the people who started this show? We don't even know them anymore.
0:08:53Nope.
0:08:54They're past us and now here we are continuing the path of life, always becoming a new person,
0:09:00discarding the old person.
0:09:02Still talking to Mykey.
0:09:04On that note, CortexMerch.com.
0:09:06[Laughter]
0:09:08[Ding]
0:09:10Alright, so we promised Cortex Movie Club for this episode and we are going to be talking about
0:09:15about Inside Bill's Brain, a three-part documentary series on Netflix, talking about Bill Gates.
0:09:22The episodes are kind of broken down into three little stories, and they tell different
0:09:27things that the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation are up to, and also kind of refer those back
0:09:32to Bill's history.
0:09:34This is the first time you've seen it, right?
0:09:36ALICE: Yeah, so I watched it last night.
0:09:38I still just sat down and watched the whole thing in a row.
0:09:41Very watchable, as a single thing.
0:09:43I don't think they even need to really divide it up into episodes.
0:09:47I mean, it's just Netflix, right?
0:09:48They know you're watching it all in one go.
0:09:50Yeah, but that's also partly why I feel like, who are we kidding Netflix, right?
0:09:54What do you think I'm doing?
0:09:57Watching this one episode a week?
0:09:59Let's get real.
0:10:00Just make it one thing.
0:10:01It was easy to binge.
0:10:02It flows from the start to the finish.
0:10:05It's really well made.
0:10:06It's incredibly well made and it's very cleverly made as well.
0:10:09The second episode, I think, is the best episode from a narrative perspective.
0:10:14That's when they're focusing on the polio vaccine and talking about his history, and
0:10:21they overlap the problems, right?
0:10:23So like him trying to isolate and work out and calculate where to put the vaccine, and
0:10:29then also calculating how to do the school schedules.
0:10:32And they just overlap the conversations, and it's fascinating.
0:10:36It's so well done.
0:10:38I think it's difficult to not have a lot of respect for Bill Gates.
0:10:43I don't know anybody who cares about technology that does not respect Bill Gates as an individual,
0:10:49like on his contribution, but this gave me even more so for him.
0:10:57Really seeing in detail the work that the foundation is doing, it was really enlightening
0:11:05to me.
0:11:06I came away from it feeling even warmer about Bill Gates than I did before.
0:11:13Yeah, it's interesting because I was thinking before watching the documentary last night
0:11:19that I was just trying to think about my history of Bill Gates, of what have I thought about
0:11:23this person, because he's been a large figure on the technological landscape for the course
0:11:30of my life.
0:11:31It's funny because I was just trying to think about what were the phases of my thoughts
0:11:35about him and I remember sort of early in my computing use time having this feeling
0:11:43like "Oh computers are crazy and we need someone to come in here and totally unify this system."
0:11:51They're like "Oh if we have all these wildly different working computers, what a big problem
0:11:55this is and we just like we need a dominant market player here to make everything work together so
0:12:01so that all these computers can be great. And then years later I became
0:12:05embarrassingly when I was using Linux,
0:12:07one of these people who would like write Microsoft with the dollar sign.
0:12:11I know, right? Like,
0:12:13I know I did that a couple of times on bulletin boards and it's like, Oh God,
0:12:18past me. Like I can't roll my eyes hard enough at that person.
0:12:23If I'm writing notes, like sometimes like very fast,
0:12:27I will do M dollar sign for Microsoft.
0:12:30Yeah, but that's, that's like an abbreviation, right? Not a, not an embarrassment.
0:12:33But that abbreviation comes from terrible nerds like you who wrote Microsoft of a
0:12:38dollar sign, right? Like that's, that's how I know about that.
0:12:42Yeah. And looking back on it, it's, it's just funny because, um,
0:12:46you know, again, like that's,
0:12:48that's the height of my insufferable Linux user-ness and I also love it because
0:12:53it's, it's the kind of thing that in retrospect betrays a total edgy lack of
0:12:59understanding anything about the world, right?
0:13:02Like, I think that's the kind of a thing
0:13:04when you're younger and you're like,
0:13:07"Oh my God, did you know that this business
0:13:09"is trying to make money?"
0:13:11And it's like, "Oh God, kid."
0:13:12- And they wanna be the best.
0:13:14- Yeah, yeah, and it's like,
0:13:16"Kid, I don't even know where to start with this."
0:13:20Like, I get why you're angry
0:13:22and why you and a bunch of Linux hippies
0:13:24wanna build an operating system made out of flowers together.
0:13:27And it's like, it's great, but also Jesus Christ is that embarrassing.
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0:15:35So that was at one point in my life and then I knew that he started this like charity that
0:15:40was focused on the third world and I remember just thinking like, oh, what an odd choice.
0:15:48he made all of his money from the first world and now he's spending all his money in the
0:15:52third world.
0:15:54And at some point, between learning about the foundation and then fast-forward a decade
0:16:02of just hearing about Bill Gates in the background in these various ways, I totally changed my
0:16:08mind on him as a person.
0:16:10I just think it's an interesting case of…
0:16:13Like I was one of these people who at a time thought like, "Oh, Bill Gates is this terrible
0:16:17person."
0:16:19And the documentary goes over the course of his life.
0:16:22And without a doubt, he was an abrasive guy when he was younger.
0:16:27But there's also just this way in which people change or you can have incorrect assessments
0:16:33of that person.
0:16:35And I've gone from thinking Bill Gates is this terrible person to, I think my current
0:16:41status is if you have to try to make a short list of who of the humans on earth are trying
0:16:49and succeeding to make the world a place with less suffering in it, it's like Bill Gates
0:16:56has got to be pretty high on that list of how many people are actually doing and accomplishing
0:17:02things that reduce the suffering of humanity.
0:17:05And it's not necessarily that he cares more than anybody else. It's that he is doing it
0:17:11Yeah, and he has the resources to do it right like that's why like he has so much money
0:17:16But lots of people have lots of money. Yeah, and they don't do what he's doing
0:17:20So it is a very interesting thing to see it's interesting to see how him and Melinda approach
0:17:26The things that they approach and how they tackle them and I can understand that people can criticize some of his methods
0:17:33the decisions that he makes like there's this one moment where he's talking about like we
0:17:38pick the things that we think we can have the most impact on. So I got like a couple of quotes here.
0:17:44The documentarian was asking him how did I choose what he wants what diseases he wants to try and
0:17:49eradicate and then Bill says like it's not my goal to be inspiring to people. The world has limited
0:17:55resources, I have resources and I want to focus on the things that I can get the most optimization
0:18:01are often the best results, which is a very nerdy way to think about philanthropy, but
0:18:09it makes sense when you think about it, right? Where it's like, there could be, in theory,
0:18:15on paper, better things for him to focus on, but he puts his money where he believes he
0:18:21can make the most difference, and it continues to be more relevant right now because he is
0:18:26investing a lot of money into coronavirus. So it's kind of funny, like a few weeks ago,
0:18:33he sat down with MKBHD and he did an interview. This happens every year now when the Bill
0:18:37and Melinda Gates Foundation have a letter, like an open letter. And now it seems like
0:18:43part of the promotional piece is he has an interview with MKBHD. This has now happened
0:18:48twice, two times as a pattern, right? And in that video he references that, "Oh, like
0:18:54I got an email talking about coronavirus and looking at that now and on MKBHD's
0:19:00podcast he was saying that like there was like a maybe a week's difference
0:19:03between when they recorded and when they published it and by the time that they
0:19:09published the video the Gates Foundation had already announced like all this
0:19:12money and time and resources that they're putting into coronavirus and
0:19:15they were remarking like how fast he went from just finding out about it to
0:19:20investing lots of money into trying to help it.
0:19:23I have a number of thoughts about the documentarian and I do have like real annoyances with this
0:19:29series but you honed in on two moments that I really love and this moment about inspiration
0:19:36is really great because to me it's a summary of there is this very difficult thing in charity
0:19:47where people sort of respond to how emotive people are when describing the things that they're
0:19:55trying to fix. Like, people respond like outward expressions of sadness and suffering and that is
0:20:04not gates and that's also very often not the way to fix problems. You have to be able to
0:20:14coldly separate yourself from the individuals in order to be the one who is actually able to solve
0:20:23problems on a large scale. And I just always find it interesting how in conversations with people,
0:20:30this sort of way of thinking, many people really respond negatively to of, "Oh, I'm trying to solve
0:20:38this problem with polio or I'm trying to solve this problem with poverty. And in order to make
0:20:45any progress on that, I have to not get swept up in any of the individual cases. And people are
0:20:51often like, "Oh, what a monster. You don't care about those things." It's like, "No, this is how
0:20:56you do stuff." And the exact quote is that the interviewer is giving this description and there's
0:21:01two things and Gates is like, well, these stories of suffering for individuals, that
0:21:08is the emotional connection, which is the retail of charity business.
0:21:15Right?
0:21:15But if you want to fix the problem, you have to think wholesale, right?
0:21:19You have to think in this totally different way.
0:21:21And it's like, that's sort of sounds like an awful statement.
0:21:25And the interviewer says like, that's not inspiring, Bill.
0:21:28And one of the greatest moments is like before he almost gets to the end of the L sound in Bill,
0:21:33Gates just goes, "Well, that's too bad."
0:21:35And he's just like, "If you're not trying to inspire people, what are you doing?"
0:21:41And Gates says, "Optimization."
0:21:43And it's like, that is just, it's great.
0:21:47Like, yes, this is how, if you want to solve these problems, you have to actually go about it.
0:21:53And he's thinking of it like in like what you're saying about the coronavirus, which I wasn't fully aware of all those details.
0:22:00Part of it is trying to pick projects in a marginal way of like, where do his dollars make an additional marginal increase in quality or decrease in suffering compared to like the charity world in general or how difficult the problem is?
0:22:18Yeah.
0:22:18I personally find that, like, not inspiring, but it fills me with hope of like, great,
0:22:24this is someone who is not getting distracted by the details and is focusing on like the
0:22:29hard things to focus about to actually try to fix these problems.
0:22:33Even if saying like, oh, we're in the wholesale business sounds so grim and so boring, but
0:22:39that's the way you do it.
0:22:40But I think this is evidence of an individual who is aware of what they're capable of.
0:22:46Bill Gates is not an inspiring figure. Steve Jobs was an inspiring figure. He would get
0:22:52on the stage and he would talk and you would believe whatever he had to say. And Bill Gates
0:22:58doesn't carry that kind of weight. Even Balmer was more inspiring in his own way.
0:23:04In his own Balmer-y way.
0:23:06Yeah, but he could amp you up and that's just not Gates' way. So he is aware of the fact
0:23:13that what he can do is give money and knowledge. That's what he can do. So that's what he does.
0:23:21And so like he chooses things I think where his skills and his resources are best placed.
0:23:29And standing on stages and doing these things aren't, that's not really his thing. And there
0:23:34are many examples of him doing shocking things on stages that's different to inspiring. He
0:23:41He doesn't inspire people.
0:23:42He quite frequently scares people, right?
0:23:45So there's like, everyone's familiar with, uh, the Ted talk he gave where he
0:23:49let mosquitoes out into the room and locked the doors, right?
0:23:52Cause it was about malaria.
0:23:53Um, and then they show it in this one where he puts a jar of human feces on the,
0:23:59on the stage next to him when he's talking about sanitation.
0:24:02The mosquitoes thing is great because it makes him seem like some
0:24:05kind of crazy evil person.
0:24:07Into that a little bit.
0:24:09Right.
0:24:10And it's quite clever where he's like, "I'm gonna do something terrible to you to prove a point."
0:24:15But that's attention-getting, but not inspiring.
0:24:19In the way that inspiring people have the job's reality distortion field.
0:24:25And it's like, that is a good tool for some things,
0:24:29but for very many of the kinds of problems that Gates is trying to attack.
0:24:34That's not helpful. If anything, it could be anti-helpful.
0:24:37So yeah, like I think my personal thoughts on him have changed so much and that particular moment in the film of him going,
0:24:46"Well, that's too bad." It was like, "Oh, Bill Gates, you're like my spirit animal in this moment of shooting down this dumb question about like,
0:24:54'It's not inspiring.' Like, yeah, I'm not interested in that. Like, I'm interested in fixing the problem."
0:24:59Like, I'm not gonna lie, there are a lot of things in this documentary that made me think of you, which is why I wanted to talk about it anyway.
0:25:05[Laughter]
0:25:06I want to talk about these book bag and thinkweeks.
0:25:10Yeah, Bill Gates needs a Kindle. I can understand why he doesn't have one, but boy, I guess if I had someone to carry around my bag of books all day, then maybe I would be less resistant.
0:25:20But I got the impression he's carrying it a lot though.
0:25:23Yeah, do you think so? I don't know.
0:25:24I guess it depends on the context.
0:25:26Yeah.
0:25:27So like when he's taking that little plane and he's going out to his little shack, he's carrying the bag.
0:25:32in the bag but yeah probably a lot of the time someone's got it for him but
0:25:36it's this tote bag which is again just very interesting it's everything about
0:25:39this is interesting to me it's like a white and blue tote bag which is just
0:25:43full of books and papers right like intellectual papers and they show him
0:25:51like having it packed and stuff like that and I know it as well it's like I
0:25:55don't understand why he's reading actual books I can only imagine he just really
0:25:59needs the paper. You know, like I know that some people they prefer it, right? Like it helps it
0:26:03sink in and it seems like he is such a voracious reader that maybe it just fits with him. Like
0:26:10maybe he just can't do it digitally and maybe he doesn't want to slow down.
0:26:14Yeah, I can honestly imagine. So in the documentary they make a big deal about Bill Gates
0:26:20reading. Everyone around him just talks about how like how much he's able to read, how quickly he's
0:26:26able to read and his retention level being very high. And I can imagine that at this
0:26:32scale, you know, so he has like an acquaintance who says, "Oh, he went on vacation with Gates
0:26:38for a week, and he read 20 books."
0:26:40I got it. He read 14 books on vacation. He reads 150 pages an hour.
0:26:45Right, yeah. And I can imagine that at that scale, having the physical books helps your
0:26:53brain distinguish and makes memories better of what you're actually reading.
0:27:00Whereas if you're doing whatever it is, 150 pages an hour on a Kindle screen, maybe it's
0:27:06just too much the same.
0:27:07MATT: Like, just blends in together.
0:27:09And maybe he can't—because Melinda at one point references that she feels like his brain
0:27:13is like a series of compartments.
0:27:16And so maybe he is compartmentalizing the knowledge a little bit with the book, right?
0:27:22that he needs, like maybe that's like kind of the way that his brain works.
0:27:25So he needs to be able to recall the book to recall the knowledge.
0:27:28This is also where some of my frustration with the documentary comes out because,
0:27:35so it's called Inside Bill Gates Brain.
0:27:37And a lot of this is like the biography of Bill Gates, which is totally fine, right?
0:27:41Give, give people the background of this person, you know, but the thing about
0:27:44reading, right, is so clearly core to what he does and part of his ability to interact with such a
0:27:54wide range of people on different topics and quickly assess situations and everything else
0:28:00that I don't really want to hear so many other people telling me about Gates reading a lot.
0:28:09I want to know much more what does he think about this?
0:28:12Like our very speculation of, "Oh, maybe he wants the physical books because it's easier to remember."
0:28:19I don't know. It's just a thought.
0:28:22But there's a lot of this where I'm not...
0:28:26I always have this thing about you shouldn't expect that exceptional people are normal people.
0:28:37the people at the top of any field are a bunch of weirdos for a variety of reasons and that's
0:28:43why they're able to be like exceptional people in different areas.
0:28:46Bill Gates is not normal, we have to accept this.
0:28:48Yeah.
0:28:49He is better than us in things.
0:28:51Yeah, he's totally not a normal person.
0:28:54It wasn't luck.
0:28:55It's actually interesting because I know my father and mother had watched this documentary
0:29:00and they'd mentioned it to me ahead of time and my dad had said something like,
0:29:04"Oh, I always thought Bill Gates was just like a rich kid who got lucky, like right place,
0:29:09right time." And he said, "Oh, I watched this documentary and boy did I realize he was not
0:29:14just lucky. This guy was going to do something and it just happened to be Microsoft, right? But
0:29:22he would have done something else if that didn't come along." But so because of that, because,
0:29:29like, let's just accept that this exceptional person is different from other people,
0:29:33I find it very tiresome to have people in his life describing what he's like. Like I'm just
0:29:43not interested in their assessments. It's like I want to know what does he think about reading?
0:29:49You know, like how is this for you? Or how like how do you go about picking which books you're
0:29:58going to read? Is that something that you do at this volume of reading? Are you selecting? Are
0:30:04other people selecting? I'm sure the thing that you want to mention, but he talks about his Think
0:30:10Weeks and he mentions, "Oh, this is the time where he's just dedicated to just reading and thinking
0:30:16and how you want to have some ideas in the back of your head that you're working through." And
0:30:22it's like, "Yes, but what do you mean by what you're working through? How is it that you're
0:30:27trying to approach these questions or how do you select these questions?
0:30:30So my frustration is I feel like there was a lot of this kind of stuff where other people's
0:30:37descriptions of what Bill Gates is up to is not remotely what I'm interested in. Like I want to
0:30:42hear Bill Gates talk about stuff and it's particularly interesting that very frequently when
0:30:48they're playing the actual interviews with Bill Gates he has so many of these little comments like
0:30:53the thing of like, "Well, that's too bad. I'm doing optimization." That feel like, "Oh, he's
0:30:59shining through this documentary." But I just felt like a lot of this stuff wasn't really pursued.
0:31:04Like, "What do you mean by that? Like, elaborate on that." So those are partly some of my
0:31:09frustrations. I wanted more. Like, I want more from Gates.
0:31:13So did I. But I kind of wonder if maybe that stuff isn't interesting to everybody else.
0:31:20I can get that, but then maybe don't call your documentary like Inside Bill's Brain.
0:31:24That's a good name though.
0:31:25It's a great name, but I think that is not what they are selling in this documentary.
0:31:32I was expecting it to be a little more autobiographical than it actually is.
0:31:37Because ultimately the reason that he did this documentary is to promote the foundation.
0:31:42Yeah, yeah I think so.
0:31:42It is a marketing piece for the foundation, which from his perspective, I'm on board with that.
0:31:48There is no problem with that.
0:31:49Yeah, yeah.
0:31:49But I still maybe would have liked to have seen a fourth episode that did more, right?
0:31:54Why does he read what he reads? How much time does he read? Where does he read?
0:31:58Right? Does he read in that library or is the library just for storing books?
0:32:01Why does he keep the books? Why does he read on paper?
0:32:05Like all of this stuff, which I would love to know more about.
0:32:09But there was something I wanted to touch on, which is kind of, it's in my notes for this area,
0:32:13is they talk to Myke Slade, who's a former director at Microsoft.
0:32:18and he says that Bill always knows more than the other person he's talking to.
0:32:22And this comes across so frequently in the documentary, or at least if you don't see that,
0:32:29you see him knowing things that like, it's surprising that he knows.
0:32:34Like he walked, when he's, there's a couple of instances, both with sanitation and with
0:32:40nuclear power. These are two of the things that the Foundation's focused on.
0:32:44And one of the ways that Bill tries to push innovation is to basically create a competition.
0:32:52So he'll have universities and companies compete to create a solution to a problem,
0:32:58which he will then fund, right? In both of these instances, he's going into like,
0:33:03and this is especially in the one where they're doing nuclear power, he's going into these rooms
0:33:07and he's talking to people and he is having incredibly in-depth technical conversations.
0:33:14and asking all these questions that I can't even fathom to understand.
0:33:19And sometimes you see kind of like surprises the people he's talking to.
0:33:23And it's like this is stuff you shouldn't know. You didn't do this.
0:33:27Like you were not a nuclear physicist, right? You did not do this, Bill.
0:33:32Like this was not your thing. But he's learned it all by reading.
0:33:37And it is unbelievable.
0:33:40There's a little section I really like, which is... I don't have the name offhand, but they
0:33:45interview the guy who has written all of the books on energy. He's like the German or Austrian
0:33:50guy.
0:33:51Oh yeah, I don't remember the guy's name either, but there's the thing where he's like, "This
0:33:55book has an audience of one, and it's just me."
0:33:59It's even more brutal. This is where Geertz, his interesting way of thinking shines through,
0:34:05because there's another line I really like of his where he says, "He doesn't say it has
0:34:09an audience of one, he says, "The natural audience of this book may be less than one."
0:34:16It's like kind of an amazing and brutal review, but also pitches it in a way of like,
0:34:25"That's just what this book is." He's not saying like, "Oh, it's a bad book." There's none of that.
0:34:30He's just like, "Oh, Vladislav went too far on this one and just went too far and went completely
0:34:36into it. And I love when they talk to this guy who his whole professional life is thinking
0:34:44and writing about energy and the human civilization's use of energy. And he's written, you know,
0:34:51whatever it is, 20 books. He has a huge number of books. And they ask him, you know, has
0:34:55anybody read all of your books? And it's like, maybe just Gates, you know, that's, that's
0:35:00like the only person who's even come close to doing this. But what comes across for me,
0:35:05though the documentary doesn't specifically say it is his ability to read has allowed
0:35:10him to essentially absorb the entire professional career of another expert. He knows nearly
0:35:18as much about energy as like the world's expert knows about energy because he's just consumed
0:35:23everything that he's read. And that is the thing that allows him to move between different
0:35:30environments and talk to people because I don't think he's just done it with that one
0:35:35guy. They're just using that guy as an example of like yeah, Gates can do this. Like read
0:35:40your book, absorb your stuff, keep it in his head for future reference and be able to pull
0:35:46it out in a conversation when it's necessary. And it's an incredible skill. It's an incredible
0:35:51skill.
0:35:52I liked, I know you, maybe we'll get into it a little more about like you said you didn't
0:35:56like the documentarian. Is that a word by the way? Am I using, have I made up a word?
0:36:01Or is that? No, no, that's correct. That's a word.
0:36:03But there was a few things that I enjoyed, especially towards the beginning of the episode
0:36:07is like the way he would ask Bill questions. I think that he worked out that Bill will
0:36:12answer things immediately and he knows things that people shouldn't know. So like there's
0:36:17one scene which I loved about this when they're playing tennis. There's playing tennis and
0:36:23he'll ask him, what's the longest you've played tennis? And Bill immediately says,
0:36:26eight hours. He goes, what's the highest temperature? It's like 106 degrees. He has worked out,
0:36:31I think, that Bill remembers things that people don't typically remember. And he'll ask him
0:36:37questions like that. And it's fascinating to see this complete deadpan responses. He
0:36:43is effectively returning the answer that you've asked the computer. Like it's just immediately
0:36:49like available to this information. And I actually did really like that. And even questions
0:36:54like, you know, "Soon, what's your worst fear?" and Bill says "I don't want my brain to stop
0:36:58working" and I immediately thought of you because that feels to me like something you would say.
0:37:02B: Well, if you listen to Gates talk, he does the... like I picked up on it as well, he
0:37:08many times references his brain as a separate entity in that way, right? Like he doesn't
0:37:15phrase it as "I don't want to get dementia", right? It's like "I don't want my brain to stop working"
0:37:21And there's a few other times in the film where I noticed that.
0:37:24I mean, I'm always a big believer in, I think that's a useful way to self-conceptualize.
0:37:30I think that helps you think more clearly about yourself in relation to other things.
0:37:35And yeah, like, of course, that's going to be his big fear.
0:37:40Like, how much of his life is defined by his brain?
0:37:46It makes me think of John von Neumann, who's sort of considered to probably be one of the
0:37:51smartest people who's ever lived. Like, that was his horror at the end of his life, is he could
0:37:56feel like he was losing grip in his final days on the sharpness of his mind. And I imagine for
0:38:04someone whose life is just so intellectual, no one wants to get dementia, but it has to be more
0:38:12horrible if you know you are a much sharper knife than the average knife in the drawer.
0:38:18In the same way that I imagine if you're a great athlete, losing your physicality must be harder
0:38:25than it is for someone who never experienced the peak of what their body can do.
0:38:30- Hey, here's something I just found. I just figured to Google it and it's true.
0:38:34Gates has made heavy investments into Alzheimer's.
0:38:37- Okay, interesting.
0:38:40- Because that was what I thought was like...
0:38:44It just dawned on me, like if surely he's doing that, surely he's putting money into that because
0:38:49it's something he is concerned of for himself. As in like if he doesn't want his brain to stop
0:38:56working, surely he would be funding research into making sure that that wouldn't happen.
0:39:01That maybe by the time that these things would happen to him, there may be cures that he's
0:39:07helped fund. I have no problem with that, right? It was just like a thing that I thought was like,
0:39:12surely he's put money into that.
0:39:14And it turns out he has.
0:39:15Millions, tens of millions.
0:39:17- That's not surprising, but it also is,
0:39:19like it's not a bad place to put money,
0:39:21again, if you're trying to assess human suffering.
0:39:24- Oh, 'cause it's a horrific thing
0:39:25that human beings have to go through.
0:39:27- It's horrific and it's also,
0:39:29if you just do the quick calculation of,
0:39:31well, if healthcare keeps improving,
0:39:34the number and duration of the population
0:39:36that has to spend time with Alzheimer's will only go up.
0:39:41this is not a problem that goes down as healthcare improves, this is a problem that goes up.
0:39:45- And as far as I'm aware from like I looked into this a while ago or it came across my
0:39:49path a while ago, it's actually not a very well researched thing. Like in the history
0:39:55of medicine, like there hasn't been a lot in a about Summers research, like there was
0:39:59not a lot of funding for it. So like it's not surprising to me that he would, because
0:40:04you say you could maybe make a significant change without a lot of money.
0:40:10You know, like if it's not been funded or researched very well, like you might be able
0:40:15to make some surprising jumps on that.
0:40:17>> You're thinking about the questions, like I don't love the interviewer's method of questions.
0:40:22And I do think like right at the beginning, so he asked Bill Gates a couple of questions.
0:40:27He's like, what's your favorite this?
0:40:28What's your favorite that?
0:40:30And I'm pretty convinced that's the first time the interviewer sat down with Gates.
0:40:35>> Yeah, probably.
0:40:36>> It's just like a couple of interviews.
0:40:37And that feels like they're always cutting back to that one because it's the higher level
0:40:42like "hey, getting to know each other" kind of interview.
0:40:45I'm convinced, like I did go back and watch it, that those first two questions where he
0:40:49asks something like "what's your favorite color?" and then he goes "what's your favorite
0:40:53animal?" and I'm looking into Gates' eyes there and I think he in this moment is debating
0:40:59for a couple of seconds about whether or not to just abort this whole project.
0:41:03But that's what I like about those questions.
0:41:06And I don't think that the guy is doing it accidentally.
0:41:09Now the interviewer saves it.
0:41:10So he says, "What's your favorite color?
0:41:12What's your favorite animal?"
0:41:13And Bill Gates kind of answers both of them dismissively.
0:41:15And then he says, "What's your favorite animal that you eat?"
0:41:19And then you can see Gates was like, "Oh, okay, okay."
0:41:22That reminded me of Blade Runner.
0:41:23Oh, I could see that.
0:41:24A list of questions that got weird in a way that you wouldn't ask someone.
0:41:31Where it's like, "What's your favorite food?
0:41:33What's your favorite animal?
0:41:34your favourite animal to eat?" That sequence of questioning is very strange, and I think
0:41:41purposeful as a way to maybe try and unseat him a little bit. Like, lure him in and then
0:41:48just throw him off. If somebody asked me that question I'd be like "What are you talking
0:41:52about? No one's ever asked me that. It's so weird!" So I actually kind of liked it. I
0:41:57thought the progression was interesting. Because you can see on Bill's face where he's like
0:42:02"Who is this moron?"
0:42:03Yeah, yeah, but that's why I'm convinced in those first two seconds, he's already booting up the like, "do I abort this whole project?" part of his brain.
0:42:11And I think when he talks about some of the Monopoly stuff later, I love the way he answers the question.
0:42:17But it's the same thing where he's like, they talk about him being arrogant, and he's like, "yeah, when you have to make decisions for thousands of people and you don't have minutes to spare, like, yeah, you can seem quite arrogant."
0:42:27and I just sort of like see this little bit of maybe younger Bill Gates being
0:42:33like "oh god what is this gonna be?" He seeps out a little bit there and that
0:42:37that part is quite cleverly done because they're overlapping that conversation
0:42:41with some of the deposition videos of when Gates was on trial with the
0:42:47Department of Justice over Monopoly stuff right for Netscape and Internet
0:42:51Explorer. This was back in the 90s I think and like you say right he was like
0:42:56"Carl, do you think you were arrogant?"
0:42:57And he's like, "Well, if you're in your 20s
0:42:59"and you've got billions of dollars,
0:43:01"you're responsible for thousands of people
0:43:03"and you're growing a company
0:43:04"and every five minutes means something,
0:43:06"you probably would come across a little arrogant."
0:43:08When I hear that, I'm like, "Hmm, okay."
0:43:11Like, I agree with it.
0:43:13- What do you mean, what do you mean?
0:43:15- I agree with what he's saying,
0:43:17but you can feel that, and Melinda touches on it as well,
0:43:22that the antitrust lawsuits really affected him
0:43:27in a big way, and he clearly doesn't want to talk about it.
0:43:31Right, like ultimately I think he just doesn't want
0:43:33to confront that again.
0:43:35You know, basically the info asks him,
0:43:37he's like, did you have a monopoly?
0:43:40And then Gates, he kind of tries to make the argument
0:43:43that they could have been toppled by another company, right?
0:43:46So he feels it isn't monopolistic in that sense,
0:43:49but then immediately says, I know that sounds weaselly,
0:43:51Like I'm trying to get out of this by like explaining it away.
0:43:54Yeah.
0:43:54But, but say like, again, I'm kind of, I'm kind of with Gates here.
0:43:58I am not saying that I disagree with the way it all shook out.
0:44:03Like I am a person of the internet.
0:44:06I have watched come and go many companies, right.
0:44:09Who like seemed dominant and then are just knocked off.
0:44:12I think we're at a point where maybe some companies will never be knocked off now.
0:44:17Like we've got to a different point in internet's history.
0:44:19Yeah, that may be true.
0:44:20But it was for a time, like yeah, I mean Internet Explorer had 98% market share, but that wasn't
0:44:26going to last because Microsoft didn't last that way.
0:44:30My point is just like if you are having to say, "I am aware that sounds weaselly,"
0:44:35you know that you're not making an argument which is definitive.
0:44:38I'm like, I don't know, I'm not sure I agree with that, but I think there's, I just think
0:44:43there's also something interesting here, which is I never even realized.
0:44:46I didn't realize that the higher court overturned the verdict against Microsoft.
0:44:52I was totally shocked by this piece of information because I had always thought like, "Oh yeah,
0:44:57they got hit with this antitrust lawsuit and they lost."
0:45:01The whole like retrial completely bypassed me in the dustbin of history.
0:45:05Like it just didn't cross my mind.
0:45:07I think you may be confusing it with the European Union.
0:45:11Maybe that's what it is.
0:45:12The European Union did find Microsoft.
0:45:16Right, right.
0:45:17Okay, yeah.
0:45:18And it was over the very same thing.
0:45:20Right.
0:45:21Okay, yeah, maybe that's why it's kind of muddled up in my head.
0:45:24Yeah, and I believe off the top of my head, I'll put some links in the show notes if
0:45:29people want to confirm this for themselves, but off the top of my head, that was not overturned
0:45:33and they paid like half a billion dollars or something like that.
0:45:36Yeah, yeah, that sounds right to the European Union.
0:45:39Yeah, so it may have just been like, if you weren't paying attention, you would just assume
0:45:45that they were guilty everywhere.
0:45:47Yeah, so the thing about him with the monopoly is that there's two really interesting, my second
0:45:52most interesting moment in the documentary is in this little part two. But yeah, so the interviewer
0:45:57asks him, "Did you have a monopoly?" And his exact quote is, "If by monopoly you mean a high market
0:46:03share, then yes, but if you mean an unchallengeable market position, then no.
0:46:07And that's where he's like, you know, if it's a, if that sounds like I'm being
0:46:10weaselly, you know, and, but I just, I just think there's a part here where like
0:46:17stuff like this is just not simple.
0:46:20Like that question is just not a simple question.
0:46:23And like, I'm, I'm with Gates on this of like, he's in this horrible position that
0:46:28of people ask him, "Did you have a monopoly?" What people sort of mean is, "Did you have
0:46:34really high market share?" But that isn't what a monopoly is.
0:46:39But the—
0:46:40But so my question on that though is, did Bill Gates in 1997 or whatever really believe
0:46:47that he could be challenged?
0:46:49Yeah, I mean, that's a totally different question, which I don't know the answer to.
0:46:55I think that does change it though, right? Like if he believed at that time that no
0:47:01one could beat Microsoft and Internet Explorer, that perception changes
0:47:08the outcome, right? And I know that's like how could you can't, there's no facts in
0:47:13that, right? So like it's difficult to put that on trial but like I'm just making
0:47:19the point of like I think that does make it slightly different because I would
0:47:22believe that he probably thought no one could beat him then. You see the kind of guy he
0:47:29was then especially, and I genuinely believe that he was in the idea of like, "We've won
0:47:35this."
0:47:36Yeah, that's very possible. Like, that's very possible.
0:47:40And if that's the case, it's like, well then what was it, right? So now we can argue on
0:47:44technicalities but if the guy running the company thinks that he's won, then they…
0:47:47Anyway, it's too complicated. It's incredibly complicated.
0:47:50Yeah, yeah, yeah.
0:47:51I think it's an interesting thing to think about at least.
0:47:53Yeah, it is.
0:47:54It is interesting.
0:47:55And it goes, it goes back to like, it's just, you can so see in the clips that.
0:48:01Like young Bill Gates is this really abrasive guy.
0:48:06So good.
0:48:06And yeah.
0:48:08And like old Bill Gates is like a friendly grandpa and it's such a, but you can see,
0:48:15you can still see the same person.
0:48:16Well, see, that's interesting though.
0:48:18Right.
0:48:18because like, so they show those, so show the clips of him being deposed and he is,
0:48:23and I understand it, like he is being asked the most idiotic questions, right?
0:48:27By people that do not understand.
0:48:29We've all seen the clips of like Zuckerberg in court in America.
0:48:33And they're asking him like, how do I change the ringtone on
0:48:37my iPhone or crap like that?
0:48:38Right.
0:48:39And like, that's clearly what's happening.
0:48:40And it's like, I've got no sympathy.
0:48:43You know, Zuckerberg, I would say is not a person.
0:48:47I have any warmness in my heart for, but even still, it's like, oh God, can you,
0:48:52can you imagine being as smart as Zuckerberg and having to on camera, like
0:48:58listen for hours to these totally idiotic questions for people who know nothing.
0:49:05Like he's there to talk about something completely different.
0:49:07And like these people are bringing their tech support questions to him.
0:49:11It's like, I'm sure it was exactly the same kind of conversation
0:49:14in those depositions.
0:49:16Right.
0:49:16So like you can see how we guess that way.
0:49:19And Gates had to sit there all day.
0:49:21Right.
0:49:22So you like, I can guarantee you those clips are from hour seven of day two of
0:49:27But then there are also the clips of him in office meetings at Microsoft.
0:49:32Where he is just like losing it.
0:49:35Right.
0:49:36And there's like, someone says that he used to say, like, that is the most
0:49:40idiotic thing I've heard all day when he said it like 10 minutes earlier about
0:49:44something else. But the thing is, he's also asked questions of like, "Has he mellowed?"
0:49:53And people are like, "No, he hasn't." And I wonder if maybe he can just control himself
0:49:59better now, but ultimately he's still the same kind of guy.
0:50:04Well, so it's only one person who answers the question of...
0:50:08So Gates himself says that he's mellowed.
0:50:12And it's, I forget, it's just like the venture capital dude is the only one who says no.
0:50:19But his answer is like, no, if anything, he's amped up what he's trying to do.
0:50:25- Which is like a slightly-- - So it might be a different thing.
0:50:27Yeah, like I think that question was a slightly different sort of thing.
0:50:31But I don't doubt that, like, if Bill Gates wants to, he can turn on the arrogance of a younger man.
0:50:41But before we leave the Monopoly thing, the one thing which is my perhaps most favorite moment in the whole documentary
0:50:48is when the interviewer asks him something like, "Oh, what would you tell your younger self about that whole time?"
0:50:53And Gates's whole manner changes.
0:50:57Like he gets colder and he says to his younger self,
0:51:02"You have an overly simplistic view
0:51:06of what's going on here."
0:51:07- I loved that so much.
0:51:10- Well, so the interviewer goes like,
0:51:12"What do you mean, defensive?"
0:51:13And he says, "You're naive, you're naive."
0:51:16And this is also partly where like,
0:51:18I'm sort of frustrated with the interviewer
0:51:20viewer because boy do I want Bill Gates to expand on that point.
0:51:24Even though I think...
0:51:26You know he's not gonna though, Gray.
0:51:27Like if you asked him, he's not going to say any more than that.
0:51:30Right.
0:51:30But like even, even just the clip of him saying like he's not going to
0:51:34say any more than that, right?
0:51:36Okay.
0:51:36But like, I think anybody who's thinking this through can pick up what Bill
0:51:44Gates is putting down in this moment.
0:51:47Yeah.
0:51:47of like, "Hey, kid, you think this is actually about 'Is Microsoft a Monopoly?' and you're
0:51:55trying to fight this game on 'Is Microsoft a Monopoly?' and this is not remotely the reason
0:52:02why you're stuck in this situation. That's not what's going on here."
0:52:06There are other forces at play here and you can't control them.
0:52:09Yeah, and it's the same thing with Zuckerberg of like,
0:52:14why was Zuckerberg hauled over to Washington, D.C.? Is it for the reasons they really said,
0:52:21or is it for other reasons? I think we all know it's also for other reasons.
0:52:26But that is my favorite moment, and part of it is just his demeanor change. I'm making a real
0:52:34statement here for people who want to hear what I'm really trying to say. You have an overly
0:52:42simplistic view of what's going on here. I thought that was great.
0:52:45- Let's talk about the thinkweeks.
0:52:48- Okay.
0:52:48- So Bill started these when he was at Microsoft in the 90s, and he has a little cabin that he goes
0:52:54out to, which looks very remote. It looks like seaplane only to get there kind of thing.
0:52:58And it's referenced in the documentary that this is like a time that he'll take to distill
0:53:03his thoughts. He just reads and he thinks. Someone refers to it as like CPU time. It's just like when
0:53:09when his brain is processing things.
0:53:11And I also noted that he loves Diet Coke.
0:53:12He drinks a lot of Diet Coke.
0:53:14There's like a whole fridge of Diet Coke.
0:53:16- Yeah, as soon as you tune into it,
0:53:17he's actually drinking Diet Coke
0:53:19through a huge portion of the documentary.
0:53:21- Just like constantly drinking Diet Coke.
0:53:23(laughing)
0:53:25- Hey man, I think you might have a problem.
0:53:27- Yeah.
0:53:27(laughing)
0:53:28Well, so we're gonna talk about Warren Buffett later on,
0:53:31'cause we have to,
0:53:31'cause that's a lot of interesting things in there.
0:53:33But Warren Buffett is also a big Coke guy.
0:53:36- Yeah, I know, yeah.
0:53:37I saw the same thing.
0:53:38It's like what's going on here?
0:53:40- I think it's Cherry Coke for Warren Buffett.
0:53:42- Oh, was it a different one?
0:53:43Okay.
0:53:44- He drinks like five cans of Cherry Coke a day.
0:53:47And this came up on an episode of Connected a long time ago
0:53:51because I don't know if you saw this,
0:53:52but like Apple made some game
0:53:54called Warren Buffett Paper Wizard.
0:53:57- No, I know.
0:53:58- Super weird.
0:53:59Like Buffett owns like a massive portion of Apple.
0:54:01He owns like 5% of Apple or something.
0:54:03- Right.
0:54:04- And at this investor meeting,
0:54:05they like Tim Cook came out and they made this game
0:54:08it was this big fun thing it was on the App Store but only for like two weeks and he took it down
0:54:12so weird like Apple made the game and it's like you're going around and throwing
0:54:18newspapers at like
0:54:21Apple HQ
0:54:23Oh my god. Yes. Okay. This sounds familiar. Yeah
0:54:26Had like a paper route as a kid or something. Yeah, that's how we started his fortune, right?
0:54:31That's like the story his story like paper boy in Omaha
0:54:35Worked around worked it up and up and up and now he's like one of the richest men ever that kind of thing
0:54:40But anyway, he he was at the face of cherry coke in China
0:54:43Really? Yeah, Warren Buffett is like
0:54:47Freaking fascinating like the more you look into that guy the stranger it gets like in many ways
0:54:55But yes, there's a connection there with coke
0:54:57but but the thinkweeks like they obviously they jumped out to me because it is very similar to the Gratian right and
0:55:04And I just wanted to know what you thought about it.
0:55:07- The very first thing I wanted to know was,
0:55:10is that his real cabin?
0:55:11Is that really the place that he goes?
0:55:13I just, I can't decide if it is.
0:55:16I think it is.
0:55:17- I feel like it is.
0:55:18Why wouldn't it be?
0:55:19- I don't know.
0:55:21Just like how much does he want to show on camera?
0:55:24If someone was doing a documentary on me,
0:55:26I can guarantee fucking to you
0:55:27that I would not be showing them
0:55:28where I actually go for gradations, right?
0:55:30And so I was just wondering like,
0:55:32"Oh, if Gates goes to the same place all the time, does he want people to see the inside?"
0:55:37I think it is his place, but it just kind of struck me as I wonder.
0:55:41[laughter]
0:55:42MATT: I don't think Bill Gates's residence is a very secret.
0:55:44ALICE; Yeah, I know.
0:55:46But still, how much do you want to show or not show?
0:55:48So, anyway.
0:55:49The way it looked struck me as sort of exactly what I would expect of... it's a small place,
0:55:56focused it seems to contain nothing but books and a bed and a refrigerator full of Thai Coke and
0:56:04that's what you would want if you're doing this is narrow and focused.
0:56:08See I buy it because if it was more lavish I would have maybe raised an eyebrow but like the
0:56:15realisticness of it just being a bed a table a fridge and a bookcase is like yeah I can imagine
0:56:22Imagine that being all he would have.
0:56:24Yeah, yeah. Like I said, it focuses. You have less to do.
0:56:28You're just going to sit here and you're just going to read.
0:56:30This is also where I just, I really just wanted to kind of know more, but it's interesting why he calls them "Thinkweeks"
0:56:37I think, is because he says, it's very fast, but he says that he goes there with a list of particular questions
0:56:46that he has in the back of his mind.
0:56:48Yeah.
0:56:49And so he has this example like, "Oh, when will low interest rates end?"
0:56:56That's a question that he has on his mind.
0:56:57I think the way he kind of phrased it, which I also found interesting, was kind of like,
0:57:02you know you have those questions, they pop up in your brain, and they're just things
0:57:08that occur to you.
0:57:09I go there to actually think about those things.
0:57:13So like, as you say, what about why are interest rates so great that they are, when are they
0:57:18going to change. Like people think of these things but let them go.
0:57:21Yeah. But it seems like he like is like, no, I want to know.
0:57:25And like he will maybe record them, find resources,
0:57:28go there and answer those questions,
0:57:30which is obviously a very different type of living or thinking than most people.
0:57:35Yeah. Cause I was,
0:57:36I was just connecting it to there's an earlier part in the documentary where he
0:57:39says you have to pick a finite number of things for your mind to work on,
0:57:43which, which again, he's like distancing himself from his own brain.
0:57:47Like, you're not picking a finite number of things for you to think about.
0:57:51It's for your mind to work on.
0:57:53And just trying to connect the dots a little bit.
0:57:56I, I get the impression that that's sort of related to the Think Week that he's,
0:58:02it really sounds like he's going there with like a piece of paper with 10
0:58:07questions on it or something, and he's dedicating this time to actually trying
0:58:13to get answers about these particular things, like he's, he is, he's, he's
0:58:17is not going in an undirected way, he's going in a purposeful way, which I had heard about
0:58:25the think weeks in some general way of like, "Oh, this is a thing that Bill Gates does."
0:58:31But it was interesting to me to see that it's not what I had vaguely thought about of, "Oh,
0:58:36it must just be unstructured." Like he's spending a week catching up on the reading
0:58:41that he couldn't do during the rest of the year.
0:58:44And it's not like what you do, right?
0:58:46Which is like focused work time.
0:58:48It's not that.
0:58:50He's just reading
0:58:52with no distractions.
0:58:54In many ways it's the total opposite
0:58:56of work time.
0:58:58It sounds like, "Oh, he's
0:59:00using this as a
0:59:02time to separate
0:59:04and possibly
0:59:06adjust course based on the answers
0:59:08that he gets to various questions."
0:59:10And you were saying, "This is something I
0:59:12would want to dig more into. Like, how often does he do them? How accessible is he during
0:59:17these times? Like, is he doing literally anything else? How does he prepare for them? How does
0:59:22everyone around him prepare for him being gone?
0:59:25Yeah, yeah, that's all the stuff that, yeah, I'd want to know all those things. And I would
0:59:29really just want to know, even just a little bit about what are you doing to try to answer
0:59:37these questions. Like you must be thinking about this in a more structured way than,
0:59:42"Oh, I just grabbed a bunch of books." Right? Like you're doing something else. What are you
0:59:47doing? Or how do you think about these questions? Or how many questions do you have? How do you
0:59:52select them? Like, you know, like I think there's just so much more there.
0:59:55Do you expect to actually answer them?
0:59:58Yeah, yeah.
0:59:59But again, these are not things that most people are going to care about. Like if you're making
1:00:03this documentary for Netflix. Really it's like if they're making a documentary for us it's very
1:00:10different. I would like to get inside of Bill Gates' brain though. Can somebody out there get
1:00:15us to interview Bill and we can really dig into this stuff? If someone could just pass this along
1:00:21to him it'd be great. Yeah, yeah. But so again like there's these moments where Gates kind of
1:00:26shines through and I love them and those are the parts that were like knowing about what his
1:00:31organization was up to was fascinating like knowing more of these details was really interesting
1:00:36but Gates shining through is amazing and the other thing that I wanted so bad after this
1:00:43documentary I want a Netflix series that's just called like the Warren and Bill show and I want to
1:00:51see like Warren Buffett and Bill Gates just hanging out and talking about whatever.
1:00:58It's the best. I love it so much.
1:01:00Playing bridge at the local Omaha Bridge Club just as a couple of normal Joe's. It's amazing.
1:01:07They're getting hamburgers with more salt than any human being should ever consume.
1:01:13That is so disgusting.
1:01:15But I love that they're joking about it too.
1:01:17I was physically appalled by the amount of salt that Warren Buffett put on his burger.
1:01:23On a plain burger. There's nothing else on it.
1:01:26Also, the detail that really got me is he put it on the bottom of the bun, like on the bottom of the burger patty.
1:01:34So he didn't take off the top and salt the top of the burger.
1:01:39He flipped the burger upside down, salted the underside of the patty, put the bottom of the burger back on, flipped it over, and then looked like the happiest man on earth as he bit into the burger.
1:01:51I love that he said something like, it was just great to have made my decisions by the time
1:01:56I was 11 about what I like to eat or something, right?
1:02:02I can't help but feel, right, like there are things about when they're talking about their
1:02:07relationship that reminds me of me and you a little bit.
1:02:12How so?
1:02:13Because they talk about the first time they met, right, so the first time that Gates and
1:02:18Buffett met, Bill's mum recommended that it happen, and Bill was like, "I don't have
1:02:26the time for this, but he's important.
1:02:28I'll fly in and fly out, like,
1:02:30I'll give him a short period of time.
1:02:32But their first meeting, they were just together for hours
1:02:35because they just were talking
1:02:37and they found each other's brains so fascinating.
1:02:40And it just reminded me of how we are when we get together,
1:02:44or like even on our first meeting,
1:02:46where like we spent just, we'd never met before,
1:02:49we'd never spoken, but we just spent hours just talking.
1:02:52- Yeah, that's right, we did spend a long time together,
1:02:55that very first one, which I think was probably scheduled for me for like,
1:02:58"I'll spend an hour!" and I think we spent the whole day together.
1:03:01Yeah, like you were kind of the bill in that, right?
1:03:03Where it was like, you know, I don't know what Warren Buffett was feeling,
1:03:06but kind of just like, "Eh, you know, I'll see what it's like."
1:03:09Just the way that they describe some of the stuff in their relationship is just like that
1:03:12they understand each other, and they become friends because they understand each other's brains work,
1:03:18and there aren't a lot of other people that they'd necessarily met in their lives
1:03:22where their brains work similarly enough that they can challenge each other and find it
1:03:26interesting and it just reminded me of how we are a little bit which I just thought was
1:03:32that obviously that was nice you returned not on that one probably but that's fine.
1:03:37I was well I'm not going to play bridge with you if that's what you're asking.
1:03:40I don't know how to play bridge but this is interesting because of the way that they are
1:03:45friends and they were also referred to as partners because Buffett pledged half of his wealth to the
1:03:51the Gates Foundation, right?
1:03:53- Yeah.
1:03:53- And it's interesting to hear how he talks about,
1:03:56Bill says it's worse for him really
1:04:00to feel like he's losing Warren's money than his own.
1:04:02- Oh, I know, that's brutal and I totally,
1:04:07like I feel Gates so much on that.
1:04:11There is a way in which,
1:04:13and I think you can see it on his face
1:04:15in a couple little moments where it's just like,
1:04:18It's a real responsibility to spend another billionaire's fortune.
1:04:24That's almost an inconceivable amount of, I don't want to say burden, but like, it's
1:04:30an almost an inconceivable amount of exchange between two people of, of like
1:04:36the wealth that Warren buffet has built up over a lifetime passed on into the
1:04:42hands of Gates to manage like, I, I, I don't think I could psychologically
1:04:47deal with that of like, oh God, it's okay if I lose my own billions, but if I lose Warren
1:04:52Buffett's billions, that's terrible. That's a terrible situation to be in.
1:04:56- Because it's like, it's difficult, they're friends.
1:04:58- Yeah, or even just like, Buffett wants to, wants an update on like, what's the situation
1:05:03with polio? How's that going? Like, what do we think the odds are on actually being able
1:05:06to get it down to zero? - It's come back!
1:05:09- Yeah, that's a very different conversation if the two of you are just hanging out and
1:05:15talking as billionaire buddies and bridge partners versus, "Oh also you're spending all of my money
1:05:22on this polio problem too." Like, oh god. But I could watch the two of them interact all day long.
1:05:28It's just something about it that was charming but weird.
1:05:32- They're like, "They're in the recliner chair? Why are they in that store? Why are they sitting
1:05:36on recliner chairs? Like, who made that happen? Why is that happening? They're doing this like
1:05:42thing in a kitchen, like it's just really strange.
1:05:46- Yeah, it's really strange and even just,
1:05:49my wife laughed out loud 'cause she was like,
1:05:52what are these two, they're just sitting in a diner?
1:05:54Like this is what they do, Bill Gates flies to Omaha
1:05:56and they just go to like some random diner
1:06:00sitting in the booth and it's just,
1:06:02it's like okay, what's the total net value represented
1:06:05by the two seats in this booth in a diner in Omaha?
1:06:09It's something intrinsically absurd about it.
1:06:11I mean, I can't imagine they are actually doing that because like Berkshire Hathaway owns that town, right?
1:06:17Yeah.
1:06:18They must have restaurants at the office.
1:06:20I don't know. Like I don't know a lot about Warren Buffett, but I like if they're just going to that regular bridge club,
1:06:26I can totally believe that the man who wants to pour half a container of salt on his burger also just has some diner that he's been going to for 50 years where he likes the burger.
1:06:36I guess.
1:06:37I find it very believable that that's really what they're doing, you know?
1:06:41And Gates is like, "Yeah, we have to go to this diner, 'cause it's the only one that Warren will eat at."
1:06:46Like, I could-- I can-- That is trivially easy for me to believe.
1:06:51But yeah, did you hear me, Netflix? This is what I want.
1:06:53- Yeah, please. - I want the show with the two of them.
1:06:55I don't care what they're doing. I just want it. - Anything.
1:06:59- Yeah, anything.
1:06:59[laughs]
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1:08:54So going from the micro, which is Warren Buffett and Bill Gates sitting in a cafe eating burgers
1:09:01is hilarious.
1:09:02All right, to zoom all the way out to the macro.
1:09:06Again, one of the things I liked about this documentary is the way it sort of focused
1:09:12on the way Gates thinks about problems and how to solve them.
1:09:20And this is the stuff that we were talking before about, like, what is underfunded?
1:09:24Like where can you be effective?
1:09:26And the, the toilets thing, I think is it just to like a great example of this.
1:09:33I get the impression that this is.
1:09:35Largely what started the bill and Melinda Gates foundation was, was around
1:09:42thinking about the problem of sanitation in the third world and how to solve it.
1:09:46But it's just, I think it's kind of fascinating to hear Gates talk a little
1:09:52about it where he's like, "Oh, toilets are this totally underfunded problem and they're a thing
1:09:57that nobody thinks about." And it's like, yeah, that's perfectly correct. Nobody thinks about it.
1:10:04And what I didn't realize and what I found interesting is that there's no market
1:10:12segmentation in the world of toilets, where we only have two options, which is you live in a
1:10:19modern country that has billions of dollars worth of plumbing and these multi-million dollar waste
1:10:25treatment facilities, and you have an incredibly complex system that keeps the water clean and
1:10:34nobody ever thinks about it. And then as they said, the moment you go down from there, you're
1:10:41left at a pit in the ground and it's like there's very little that you can do in between those two
1:10:49extremes and like I just I just thought it was a it was a really fascinating way to kind of think
1:10:55of this this problem of can you try to fund something that can exist in between these two
1:11:05Because there's that guy who works for the aerospace company who says that there are
1:11:11places in the world where they have sanitation plants but don't have the money to run them.
1:11:15Yeah, yeah, they have the plants, they don't have the money to run them.
1:11:18Or the thing that I never thought about is like, oh, if you have a slum, one of the best
1:11:25things you could do for that slum is cleaning up the sanitation.
1:11:30that you can't, you just physically can't put pipes under the ground to all of the dwellings
1:11:36in this area.
1:11:37Like, it would, that it would just cost more money than the country even has.
1:11:41It's just a good example of trying to build up something else to say like, "Okay, what
1:11:50can exist?
1:11:51What are our options here?"
1:11:53And talking about the way they think through the problems of like, "Okay, we gotta power
1:11:58the toilet system somehow. Like maybe we can use the waste to power the toilet system itself or
1:12:03you know, oh maybe we should just try to have some kind of composting system or like what can we do,
1:12:07what can we do? And then on the other side, the part where you can see Gates being frustrated and
1:12:13it comes up later with some of the nuclear power stuff of, okay that's great, we have a toilet
1:12:20that's theoretically self-sufficient but it costs $50,000 to make one of them and like we need to
1:12:27to find suppliers who can mass produce this and bring down the price.
1:12:31It's like just such a horribly, horribly complex problem.
1:12:35And also a problem with such tremendous upside because the number they give in
1:12:41the documentary is like this 4 billion people on earth without access to modern
1:12:46toilets. It's like, man,
1:12:49even if this has been a 10 year project that has been really hard to try to
1:12:53It's like the upside is tremendous if you can solve this.
1:13:00And I wouldn't be surprised if still to this day, like the Gates Foundation is one of the
1:13:04very few people trying to work on this problem of how do we construct and build and roll
1:13:13out cheap toilet and sanitation systems in the world.
1:13:19And it's a great example of like the marginal dollar of like where can Bill Gates direct
1:13:25his resources to try to make a maximal impact for something that hopefully you can find
1:13:32as a somewhat cheap solution.
1:13:34You know, again, this is where I wish the documentary had gone in a little bit more
1:13:37detail because I don't quite understand what is the current state of this project, but
1:13:43it definitely seems to me like a great area to put all the resources in.
1:13:47And it was just similar also thinking of polio as a little bit of a reverse case where it's
1:13:54not that people aren't focused on trying to get rid of polio, but I loved one quote in
1:14:00particular where Gates says, "The thing about polio is that getting to zero cases is magic,
1:14:07because once you get down to zero cases, it saves you all of the future costs forever."
1:14:14And I think that's a, that's another example of thinking about a problem in the world in a sort of
1:14:21unsympathetic, uncharitable cost way.
1:14:27But it's, it's again, like an excellent point of like, why is polio a thing that you really want to try to attack?
1:14:33And it's because unlike some other problems, if we can just solve it all the way once, it's a problem that you can just.
1:14:41take off the board for humanity of like, we never have to think about this again.
1:14:46Goodbye polio.
1:14:47And we don't have to forever invest resources into maintaining this situation
1:14:53because it's just done and it's just resolved.
1:14:57And it's also very, very frustrating watching as a viewer to realize like,
1:15:03Oh my God, like we've gotten it so close, but there's just like three areas in the
1:15:10world where you can't get it down to zero and it's just logistically difficult.
1:15:16Or there are just things that happen that there's no way he can work against like terrorism, war.
1:15:21Yeah, but that's what I mean is like, oh, you have like these terrorist controlled
1:15:26regions in the world and like those are the last holdouts for polio and you just can't do anything,
1:15:32but it's like it feels tantalizingly close of like if we can just get it to zero,
1:15:37what a tremendous, tremendous benefit for all of humanity.
1:15:41What I like about them, like with Bill and Melinda in this case, is they
1:15:44they don't give up. Like they in fact, after all, they invest more money.
1:15:49So we don't get more into it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a great,
1:15:53another great line that I really like is where Gates talks about the people he's
1:15:56working with coming to him and asking for more money, and they ask for like 100
1:16:00million dollars more. He's like, "I think you asked the maximum that you think you
1:16:04you can ask for, not the actual amount it's going to take to solve this as like, you need
1:16:09$400 million.
1:16:12Which is quite a difference.
1:16:13Yeah, which is quite a difference, but it's also again, like being clever and trying to
1:16:18read the human situation of, you know, this is someone coming to me with a number that
1:16:24already seems astronomical and to fund something not to the level where you actually solve
1:16:31the problem is worse than spending four times as much money on it and hopefully actually
1:16:37accomplishing your goal.
1:16:38Angus The last episode is focused on nuclear energy.
1:16:42This is the thing that I wasn't really aware that Gates was working on until I saw this
1:16:45documentary.
1:16:46Dave Yeah, I never heard of it.
1:16:48Angus Yeah, he created a startup called Terapower
1:16:51and they're effectively working on creating a new type of nuclear energy plant, which
1:16:58Which obviously comes with a lot of baggage and they address that.
1:17:01They show the Fukushima reactor leak was a big part of it in 2011 where there was a massive
1:17:07earthquake and a tsunami and the reactor exploded and it was terrifying.
1:17:13But they were talking about there being a lot of bad choices in the way that these reactors
1:17:18were made.
1:17:19And they ended up creating something which on paper sounds amazing.
1:17:23a reactor that has been designed to be fueled by depleted uranium, which is the waste that
1:17:33we've already created with other nuclear energy stuff, right? So they were saying about like,
1:17:38there is a waste plant in Kentucky that has enough discarded uranium to power the entire
1:17:42US for 125 years on their reactor system. And they talk about it being clean, efficient,
1:17:48and safe. So I kind of wanted to get your views on it, but I need to talk about something real
1:17:53quick. I just have to say it because I can't not. There's a guy in this called Nathan
1:17:57Mervolt and he was the CTO of Microsoft and is very involved in Terapower. I
1:18:02don't want to talk about this guy because... Is he the guy who wrote the book
1:18:05on bread or is he the venture capitalist? The guy who wrote the book on bread.
1:18:09Because years ago Mervolt was connected to and I believe part-owned a
1:18:16a patent trolling company called LODSIS.
1:18:19Oh, LODSIS. There's a name I haven't heard in a long time.
1:18:23Which tried to sue a collection of iOS developers,
1:18:27including friends, very close friends of mine,
1:18:30who spent a lot of time, money, and stress dealing with this.
1:18:35Eventually, Apple stepped in and smashed it into the ground
1:18:40with a massive apple-sized hammer, and it went away.
1:18:43But it's just something that I struggle with because I know what this guy is partly responsible for.
1:18:51And that affects me. And I can't like him.
1:18:55So you don't want to read his book on bread?
1:18:58Don't want to read his book on bread.
1:18:59Okay.
1:19:00Seems like a clever guy, but also a not good person.
1:19:05Right. Okay. Well, we don't need to discuss him then.
1:19:11They also work with a guy called Lowell Wood who was involved in the creation of the hydrogen bomb.
1:19:18So like it's a real ragtag band, part of this company.
1:19:24They did have like, there was one part that sort of made me laugh unintentionally where they,
1:19:29what's the other guy's name? It's Lowell?
1:19:31Lowell Wood.
1:19:32Where they introduce Lowell Wood and they make this,
1:19:35they have just have this sentence about how like,
1:19:38"Oh, he's this like renegade person in the nuclear power industry and lots of people
1:19:43don't like him for a whole bunch of reasons." And then they cut to him and he just looks
1:19:48kind of like a Bond villain.
1:19:50He looks like an absolutely evil person. He looks like a cross between like a Bond villain
1:19:58and like a villain in Indiana Jones or something.
1:20:01Yeah, maybe.
1:20:02I have never seen someone look more evil than this guy.
1:20:07He should have a mustache that he twiddles.
1:20:09That's the only thing he's missing.
1:20:12Yeah, like I don't mean to comment on his appearance,
1:20:14but it's just so striking and particularly the way that it's cut.
1:20:20I do feel a little bit like, "Yeah, I don't know about this guy at the table."
1:20:23Like maybe not.
1:20:27I don't know.
1:20:27I'm just going 100% based on looks here.
1:20:30[laughs]
1:20:32Yeah, so yeah, I guess it is this ragtag group over there.
1:20:36Yeah, ragtag is definitely not the right way to describe them, but I couldn't think of any other phrase.
1:20:43I don't know, it sort of fits. It sort of fits.
1:20:47Yeah, because you've got like a Bond villain on one side, and Nathan, who's history I didn't know,
1:20:53but who comes across as like a real happy nerd who also doesn't get along with the Bond villain at all.
1:21:00It just feels like, "I don't know about this, guys."
1:21:03Uh, he seemed, I mean, again, whatever, opposite of Rose Tinticlass,
1:21:08this is how I'm looking at this guy, but he looks like the worst kind of nerd to me.
1:21:12Well, I didn't say if he's a good kind of nerd or a bad kind of nerd,
1:21:16but he comes across as a happy nerd either way, right?
1:21:19Mm-hmm.
1:21:19That's all I'm saying there, Myke.
1:21:22[laughs]
1:21:24But I wanted to...
1:21:26because I'm just intrigued...
1:21:28I wanted to get your opinion on nuclear power.
1:21:31[sigh]
1:21:33I don't know. It's a hard question.
1:21:36Because, like, the on-paper solution that is presented in this documentary...
1:21:41Right? Like, the way that they present their...
1:21:44what do they call it? Traveling Wave Reactor.
1:21:47Yeah, yeah.
1:21:48The way it's presented is like...
1:21:50Well of course.
1:21:52Right.
1:21:53Right.
1:21:54Completely safe.
1:21:55No element of human error.
1:21:58And we have enough resources on the planet already sitting in drums that we can't get
1:22:04rid of to power the world.
1:22:07Like on paper, this sounds amazing.
1:22:11Yeah.
1:22:12I think this is always the problem with nuclear power is I agree with it on paper in this
1:22:18way.
1:22:19must roll these statistics out a lot but they talk about how like more people were killed
1:22:24by living near coal plants than nuclear plants. There is a slight issue with this statistic
1:22:31of like there are less nuclear plants but yes I get what you're saying right you know.
1:22:36Yeah yeah but even the numbers of like living near nuclear power plants how dangerous is
1:22:42it like this I get it there is a little bit of like different stuff here and there is
1:22:48so much truth behind the nuclear power plants that exist in the world are all terrifyingly
1:22:54old and their construction dates don't tell you the truth about how old the designs they're
1:23:02actually using are. So I do think that that is a real issue and that is part of the nuclear
1:23:08power is clearly a great answer on paper.
1:23:12- And it also lends to something that Bill says a lot
1:23:16and he mentions it of like,
1:23:18I am only good in business situations
1:23:21where innovation is possible or needed.
1:23:26He says, I am good at innovation, that's what I bring.
1:23:29If it is not an innovation situation, I bring nothing.
1:23:32And again, I like that because he is incredibly aware
1:23:34of himself, right?
1:23:35Like, he knows what he's good at
1:23:37and will find ways to move in those circumstances.
1:23:40And it clearly seems from the way it's positioned in this documentary,
1:23:43that nuclear power very much needs innovation if it's going to continue.
1:23:49Well, and I also like his venture capital guy makes the comment about how,
1:23:54again, the way Gates thinks about stuff, we're like, Oh,
1:23:57you make a lot of friends trying to cure polio.
1:23:59You don't make a lot of friends trying to build nuclear power stations. Right.
1:24:03And how from Gates's perspective,
1:24:06That's actually a reason to go into nuclear power because it's another underfunded situation.
1:24:14Like, who wants to be the person who's seriously dedicating a lot of time to
1:24:19"let's build brand new nuclear power stations now"?
1:24:22Everyone else is too scared of it, right?
1:24:24They're too scared of the perception of it.
1:24:26Yeah, everybody else is scared of it, and even in countries that have been traditionally very pro-nuclear,
1:24:33like a lot of them have been dismantling the nuclear power stations,
1:24:36So it's like, this is a world without friends.
1:24:40And he's also in this situation again,
1:24:42just like with the toilets, he has a great line of like,
1:24:44oh, if you're just trying to build one nuclear power station,
1:24:46you should just shoot yourself in the head before you start
1:24:48because it's gonna cost like a bazillion dollars.
1:24:51And I like that because he's like,
1:24:55oh, he's in the wholesale nuclear power plant
1:24:59construction business, like, oh boy,
1:25:01that sounds really hard, that sounds really, really hard.
1:25:05But so, like, I don't have a strong opinion on nuclear power. I'm sort of theoretically
1:25:11for but some smart people who are closer to the topic than I am, who I've talked to,
1:25:17are of the opinion that yes, it's great on paper, but we should probably take the resources that we
1:25:26would spend on trying to build nuclear power plants and do other things with it. Just that
1:25:34it's a difficult, it's actually not a good place for marginal impact of additional dollars,
1:25:40that there are other alternative energy sources that it would be better to scale up faster,
1:25:47just that like nuclear is going to take too long also considering regulatory burdens.
1:25:51All the practicalities of actual life, the pushback you would get from people,
1:25:56even if you have a system that's safer, nobody cares and nobody wants to hear about that,
1:26:01like they just they just know like oh you want to build another nuclear power station so so i don't
1:26:07know i think on paper it might be great but in real life it has a bunch of real difficulties
1:26:12that may have nothing to do with how good or not good the solution actually is so i don't know i
1:26:20don't really have strong opinions one way or the other i mean would you want a nuclear power plant
1:26:24to go up behind mega studio right but i also wouldn't want any type of plant right you want
1:26:29want nothing now. Now you're a NIMBY person as soon as you have an office?
1:26:33No, no, no. I don't want coal to go up or an oil processing plant or anything behind
1:26:38anywhere I am.
1:26:39A wind turbine that you have to…
1:26:41I don't want it. No, it's going to cause disruption to me. Saying that I don't want
1:26:46those things in general is not correct, but nobody wants them in their backyard. That's
1:26:51just not a thing that anybody wants because it's going to affect you somehow or you're
1:26:57going to be scared of it affecting you, right?
1:26:59I mean, my feeling is like, if what they are saying is true about their plant, if they
1:27:05are what they say they are, I have no problem with him investing his money into it, because
1:27:10I am also aware of the fact that he is investing his money into other renewable resource stuff.
1:27:16So if that's the case, then why not do both?
1:27:19Because even if you only built a couple of them, and then all it did was use up the nuclear
1:27:24waste that's been generated, that is a net good to the world.
1:27:28- Yeah, yeah. - Right?
1:27:30If it is as safe as they say it is
1:27:31and it won't have reactor meltdowns,
1:27:35which the way it's explained to me, I understand it.
1:27:37All right, I can see why you say that's safer
1:27:40because the way that you've explained it to me
1:27:41compared to what is currently out there in the world,
1:27:43that makes sense.
1:27:44Like, if you could give this another name,
1:27:47people wouldn't freak out about it.
1:27:49- Right, yeah, maybe don't call them nuclear power plants.
1:27:53- Right, because it's like, it seems like it doesn't have
1:27:56the same set of problems that current nuclear energy does, because it's using the waste,
1:28:04so it's not even at its most potent. They talk about using liquid-cooled metal, which
1:28:10could never get hot enough, because the boiling point is so high that I think they kind of
1:28:15said, "We'd have other problems if that was the situation, that this is going to start
1:28:20to boil. You're not going to care about the reactor exploding at that point." So it's
1:28:24The way that they explain it all, it's like, well, this all makes sense.
1:28:27If it is as good as they say it is, why not have these as well?
1:28:31But of course, I don't know that.
1:28:34I'm sure that when original nuclear power plants were invented,
1:28:37they were perfectly safe based on what was being said. Right.
1:28:41My point is, if what they are saying is true, I have no problem with it.
1:28:45Yeah, but I can't validate that.
1:28:47Yeah, I'm not smart enough.
1:28:49I don't have enough physics knowledge to be able to validate
1:28:52if those power plants are safe. Yeah.
1:28:54I have enough physics knowledge to be able to say I can believe them that they're correct,
1:29:01which is slightly different. Like, they're not saying things or making claims that strike
1:29:05me as crazy, right? Or against the laws of thermodynamics. It's like, yeah, that seems
1:29:11plausible.
1:29:12But we also only know what we know right now.
1:29:14Exactly.
1:29:15And then it's like in 45 years, they're like, "Oh crap, depleted uranium's worse."
1:29:20That is very unlikely, but you could run into a problem of like, "Oh, the tips on the coolant
1:29:25cores are made of the wrong material and we just didn't know." Right? That kind of problem.
1:29:30So yeah, I don't know, but boy is that a problem that is not an easy one and is quite the thing
1:29:35to take on and I just didn't have any idea.
1:29:38Not that it matters anyway, because they can't build them. At least that's where it was left
1:29:43because of the issue with the American and Chinese governments right now.
1:29:47Right.
1:29:48So, there's a big 'wah wah' sound at the end of that section.
1:29:53S: That was one of those things where this comes up a few times in the documentary.
1:29:59While we were saying Bill Gates is not inspiring, he clearly has a way of being able to get
1:30:07people to do what he wants, because he's able to convince the Chinese government to work
1:30:12with him.
1:30:13earlier like when he goes in to talk to all of these leaders in Nigeria and gets them to agree
1:30:19to allow for his vaccines. One of my favorite ones is the aerospace owner guy, but like this guy's
1:30:27building like military contracts and planes and Bill somehow convinces him to build a sanitation
1:30:32plant. Like how did that even happen? Yeah that is, I forgot about that where he's like "oh yeah
1:30:38I'm building top secret equipment for the military" and Gates shows up like "hi how about you
1:30:42build toilets?" and he goes "okay sure" right like Bill Gates has the ability to convince people to
1:30:49do what he wants them to do and I just find that very intriguing right that he has that
1:30:56power because it's clearly not money right like I don't think it's money a lot of the time
1:31:02in some of these situations. I have a thought about that though okay because this again is
1:31:07is like what we were saying before about Steve Jobs has like a reality distortion field and
1:31:14there's a way in which if a thing doesn't exist you can inspire people to move in a
1:31:18direction and you can make it become so.
1:31:21Out of raw charisma.
1:31:23Yeah out of raw charisma but I think that that is limited to very particular kinds of
1:31:30of problems and that sort of charisma does not work
1:31:35for the sorts of problems that Gates is up against.
1:31:39Nuclear power does not yield to a really charismatic dude
1:31:43trying to convince people to work together on a problem.
1:31:46- Okay. - Right?
1:31:47Like you're up against the laws of the universe here
1:31:51and in a lesser way, but I think it's the same thing,
1:31:55polio and toilets, they're the same kind of thing.
1:31:59Like people are getting infected and water is dirty or it isn't.
1:32:04And an economical way to fix this or to cure this exists or it doesn't.
1:32:10And what I suspect, because there's, there's a little thing where Bill Gates
1:32:15talks, I normally have no patients at all for people talking about their childhood,
1:32:20but there's, there's a little section where Bill Gates talks about how he was
1:32:23having this really difficult relationship with his parents and the whole family
1:32:27goes off to therapy and they pretend like, oh, we are all going to therapy,
1:32:31but actually Bill needs to go to therapy and he and his mom need to work stuff out.
1:32:35But there's a part which like struck me as interesting and made
1:32:39me think about these later parts.
1:32:41So Gates says a couple of things and he says, oh, you know, my main problem
1:32:47was I felt that my parents' authority was arbitrary, which is absolutely
1:32:51unbelievable, like as a phrase, because it's so true.
1:32:57And it is fascinating that a child could work that out.
1:33:03Yeah, but that's also again like, Man Gates, do I feel you in this moment of like, I get it.
1:33:10Like that feeling of like, my parents' authority is arbitrary, like this school system is arbitrary.
1:33:17Like, I think there's a way in which, like, you can imagine a young Bill Gates having a really hard time with some of that stuff.
1:33:24Yeah, because like he understood how everything worked. Everyone was pretending, but he was
1:33:31smarter than everyone and had to just go along with it all.
1:33:34Yeah, so it goes from there to he says, "Oh, I'm at war with my parents." And then he's talking
1:33:39about the therapist that he was working with. And the therapist says, "Oh, but this isn't a fair war
1:33:45because you're going to hurt your parents way more than they hurt you. Like your framing of this as a
1:33:50war is totally wrong. And so Gates then describes how like, oh, what a brilliant tactic this
1:33:56therapist took and that he needed a little while to be convinced, but this basically
1:34:02unraveled the whole problem, right? That he was convinced on this. And I think there's
1:34:07something very interesting here because that therapist may have had the one thing he could
1:34:15have possibly said to a young Bill Gates that would be effective which is as Gates describes
1:34:21a convincing response that like yeah your parents authority is arbitrary and yeah you are in a fight
1:34:30with them but here's here's other things that like you might not have considered and then Bill Gates
1:34:35kind of changes his mind. Yeah it's like if you care about them which he obviously did
1:34:40Yeah. Like you have to understand that what you're doing, like it's the it's weighted or wrong.
1:34:48Like you shouldn't do this, right? Like it's it is fascinating.
1:34:51The reason I mentioned this is because I think like with the aerospace guy or with being friends
1:34:58with Warren Buffett or convincing people to work on polio or nuclear power or anything else.
1:35:05What I suspect is that this is not any kind of charisma in the Steve Jobs sense.
1:35:10I think Bill Gates is simply finding the people who respond very well to these kinds of arguments
1:35:20about impact per dollar unit time spent. And so I kind of think that's what's occurring here,
1:35:30is it's not that he was able to like convince anyone to start building toilets, it's that
1:35:38the same person who is in charge of this manufacturing facility for secret government stuff
1:35:44is susceptible to "oh I never thought about this" like that's a really convincing argument that one
1:35:51of the ways I should spend my time to have maximum impact is actually working on toilets and so that's
1:35:56what I'm going to do. Or the same thing with polio or the same thing with nuclear power.
1:36:02I think it's that, that like some people will just really respond to, "Oh, I've never heard
1:36:09this before," as an argument, and it's super convincing for a kind of logical person,
1:36:15and this is now what I'm going to work on. So that's my guess about how he's able to
1:36:21get people to do stuff. I don't imagine that he has greater powers than a regular celebrity
1:36:31would have. I mention that partly because I have to get this before we finish on the record,
1:36:37but I totally hate a little bit of the way that the documentary ends because the narrator says,
1:36:44like, "Oh, it's really easy to be carried away by someone who wants to change the world."
1:36:49And I think he's kind of talking about Gates like Gates is this inspiring figure, but I just don't--
1:36:57I just don't think that he's that sort of person. I think he's the sort of person that some people
1:37:03react very strongly to, but not others. And I think it's horrifically unfair how he says to
1:37:10Gates, he's like, "Oh, you're trying to cure polio, but, you know, cases are up this year, so, like,
1:37:16like are you able to achieve what you want to achieve?
1:37:18It's like, dude, yes, cases are up this year
1:37:22after a decade of decline and like narrowing it down
1:37:26to the smallest possible area.
1:37:28- Yeah, I know, but he's wrapping it up.
1:37:30But it's like a good wrap up because--
1:37:32- But like I don't think it's--
1:37:33No, I don't think it's a good wrap up.
1:37:35It's not a good wrap up because it's not fair.
1:37:37- 'Cause the three things he's focusing on
1:37:40are not working, right?
1:37:41Like that's the wrap up.
1:37:42The wrap up is like what he's trying to get Bill to say
1:37:45is what he says, which is like Bill's like,
1:37:48yeah, but I'm just gonna keep going.
1:37:49- Yeah.
1:37:50- But that's the inspiring message
1:37:51at the end of it though, right?
1:37:52- No, no, no, but it's not, here's the thing,
1:37:55he undercuts that as well, because he says like,
1:37:57oh, Bill Gates gives the answer that he always gives,
1:38:00which is to work harder.
1:38:01And that's his greatest thing,
1:38:03but I've also come to see that quote,
1:38:05that diehard relentlessness is also his flaw.
1:38:07And it's like, fuck you, right?
1:38:09Like how many kids don't have polio because of Bill Gates?
1:38:14It just made me so furious of, "Oh, I'm sorry.
1:38:18He didn't solve nuclear power for you and maybe the toilet problem isn't fixed."
1:38:22Yeah.
1:38:23Call me when hundreds of thousands of children have been spared a
1:38:28crippling disease because of you, right?
1:38:31Like even if, oh, Bill Gates only has half a success because polio
1:38:36hasn't been completely eradicated.
1:38:38It's still such an incredible accomplishment beyond what almost
1:38:43any human will ever do is like, yeah, that's, I'm still going to count that as great.
1:38:49And I just, I feel like it ends on this undercutting of, of like, Oh, well, you
1:38:54know, people are following him because he's inspiring, but where has it gone?
1:38:58Not, not very much so far.
1:39:00I just hated it so much.
1:39:02I hated that, like the last couple of lines from the narrator so intensely.
1:39:08I mean, I can see it.
1:39:10I didn't get that kind of feeling from it, but I can understand that feeling.
1:39:15I just had to get it on record.
1:39:16Because like, I kind of came away from it of just like, I feel sorry for Gates.
1:39:21That like, he wanted to have been able to achieve the ultimate success, but hasn't
1:39:29been able to get there yet with the things that he's focused on.
1:39:33Like has made massive strides, but none of these things have gotten to where he
1:39:39once right because like he's had to put more money into all of them you know and
1:39:44I completely agree with you like the things that him and Melinda have done
1:39:49have made the world better overall but like they haven't yet been able to
1:39:55achieve the things that they set out for but it doesn't mean they won't right
1:40:01but the documentarian just decided to wrap it up with that quote I guess I'm
1:40:07I'm not taking that hate away from you.
1:40:09- But I do love that Gates' mom gets the final word
1:40:13of like, oh, I forget exactly what she says,
1:40:16but something about like, oh, the thing that matters
1:40:18not as like who you are now, but like who you become.
1:40:22As like, I'm pretty sure she'd be very happy
1:40:25with the results of what her son has accomplished.
1:40:28I'm very glad that she got the last word in the documentary.
1:40:33- Yeah, it was really nice.
1:40:34I did want to just touch on Bill and Melinda a little bit,
1:40:38like their relationship, because it is fascinating.
1:40:41She is hilarious.
1:40:43Like the start of the second episode,
1:40:45where they ask like, what do you think his brain is like?
1:40:49And she just loses it, right?
1:40:51'Cause it's just like trying to understand
1:40:54how chaotic she thinks his brain is.
1:40:57And like trying to imagine living in that brain
1:40:59feels like hell to her in a way, right?
1:41:01Like just, there is no way.
1:41:03There is no way that I could deal with it.
1:41:05But I like their partnership.
1:41:08I think it's just kind of interesting.
1:41:11I really appreciate the equality in it.
1:41:14And obviously it seemed too difficult at first, right?
1:41:17Because she was very private
1:41:19and didn't want to be in the public eye.
1:41:22But then that meant that everybody ignored her
1:41:25in the foundation.
1:41:26- Yeah, yeah.
1:41:27- That if she didn't want to be seen
1:41:29and only Bill was doing the press,
1:41:31people would forget about her.
1:41:32So she had to make the decision to become more public and moved on from there.
1:41:37I just thought it was really nice to see just how strongly he values her as well.
1:41:41Yeah.
1:41:41They seem really well suited to each other.
1:41:43Yeah.
1:41:44And I, I found that quite inspiring, honestly, like the, the equality that they
1:41:49have and the, the way that he really needs her, she really needs him.
1:41:53Like they're in, they are like a, a very tight unit.
1:41:57I just found that really, just like really heartwarming.
1:42:00And I'm pleased that she was as involved in the documentary as she was, because I
1:42:05thought it was, it was very important as well to see that like, she has clearly
1:42:09made an impact on him and like pulled him down.
1:42:14There was one thing I did want to mention just about like the way that he would be
1:42:18at work, where he said that he knew the license plates, everybody's license plates.
1:42:22And would walk through the parking lot to see who was in the office.
1:42:26man. And oh, and he said, everyone can work part time, you just choose the 12 hours you want to
1:42:32work.
1:42:32That's also the younger person of his some line about Oh, I work all the time. And I love it. But
1:42:39I don't force that on anybody. And it's like,
1:42:41yeah, sure. Anybody but the guy who's walking around saying that he has a different set of
1:42:48expectations.
1:42:48Yeah, yeah. It's like, it's a little bit hard to square with. Oh, I also know everybody's license
1:42:53plate and I'm always keeping an eye on who's at the office but you know I don't force working
1:42:57harder on you like uh yeah it might not be written on paper anywhere but don't leave
1:43:04at five o'clock probably.
1:43:06So yeah I really enjoyed it I thought it was a great documentary I'm pleased that you seemed
1:43:09to enjoy it too.
1:43:10Yeah I mean obviously there's things I didn't like about it but I would totally recommend
1:43:13it I think it's it's really well made and it's really interesting so yeah I'd give it
1:43:18two thumbs up I think it was a good recommendation.
1:43:20I'm pleased that he did it. I just think it's interesting to find out stuff about these kinds of people because he's
1:43:26Unique really. Yeah, we're never gonna see this about Steve Jobs. Yeah, you know like Wozniak is not the kind of guy
1:43:34That would do this
1:43:36So really you've kind of just got Bill. Yeah, so getting him to talk about his life is
1:43:42Important it is important for history. Yeah. No, I agree
1:43:47There are like three or four people that are responsible for changing the world to where we are now
1:43:54and he's basically one of the only ones that will say anything
1:43:59Yeah, yeah
1:44:00And it's important to hear
1:44:01Cortexmerch.com
1:44:03[Laughter]
1:44:07Don't forget to get your 100th episode commemorative t-shirt or the commemorative t-pro or stickers
1:44:14as well.