0:00:00What a surprise! CGP Grey the podcaster, he made a YouTube video. Is this a new thing for you?
0:00:06Very funny Myke. Very funny.
0:00:09You know someone was monkeying around with my Wikipedia profile.
0:00:14There was a Wikipedia discussion about what order those things should go in, right?
0:00:18YouTuber or podcaster and podcaster or YouTuber.
0:00:21And I saw there was like a little minor edit war over which way it should go.
0:00:25I'm not sure what the current state of things is now.
0:00:27now. But no, I make YouTube videos because I am, Myke, a YouTuber.
0:00:32Oh, right now? CGB Grey is an American Irish podcaster and educational YouTuber. So a
0:00:38podcaster currently wins.
0:00:40Podcaster currently on top.
0:00:41Yeah, I feel like it should just change around. So right now you can be a YouTuber if you
0:00:46post a video within the next, I don't know, two months maybe? We can maybe switch it back
0:00:51around again. But right now, I think you're a podcaster.
0:00:55I leave it up to the Wikipedia gods, but I just thought that was funny.
0:00:59I would say it is quite an honor to be a podcaster and to be considered as such, you know?
0:01:05Yeah, no, it is.
0:01:07Podcasting is a noble career.
0:01:09Noble profession for anyone.
0:01:12So what is the deal with the dragon video?
0:01:18What's this one all about?
0:01:19What do you mean, Myke?
0:01:21This is just a regular video?
0:01:23the
0:01:43No, this one is a little different.
0:01:46It is a tad different.
0:01:47It is a 13-minute animated video in which you are reading a story.
0:01:51That is basically the exact opposite of what you typically do, right?
0:01:59Like that pretty much in every way, this is extremely different to the typical type of
0:02:06video that you produce.
0:02:07Well, I mean, you know, Myke, I like to, when I have the opportunity, I like to keep the
0:02:12people guessing. You're an envelope pusher. You know. It's what everybody knows about
0:02:16you. People get into ruts of expectations and then sometimes it can be nice to be surprised.
0:02:24And of course from the perspective of someone who's actually making these things, it's
0:02:27nice not to be caught in becoming a caricature of yourself over time. So I like to do different
0:02:34things as well. Because you know, you always like to have things that are out of character
0:02:37as you're well known.
0:02:40- Again, anything that I do by definition
0:02:42cannot be out of character.
0:02:44That whole phrase makes no sense at all.
0:02:46- Now part of your character is yarn weaver, right?
0:02:49You know, that's, I guess that's part of what you are.
0:02:52You just weave some wonderful tales with CGP Grey.
0:02:57- Well, I think it's important at this point to say that,
0:03:00no, I am not a yarn weaver,
0:03:03because this is not a yarn that I have weaved.
0:03:06I did not write this story.
0:03:07This is, I wasn't quite sure how to describe it,
0:03:11so I called it an adaptation of.
0:03:15It's an adaptation of a,
0:03:17it was actually a paper in a philosophical journal first
0:03:20by Nick Bostrom called "The Fable of the Dragon Tyrant."
0:03:24So it's from, I think like 2005,
0:03:28and yeah, it was originally published as a paper.
0:03:31And that is a thing that I have adapted into video form.
0:03:36Why did you want to do this though?
0:03:38So like, when did you come across this and like, what about it made you think?
0:03:43Like, I don't want to make a video about this.
0:03:46Like you have many times, right?
0:03:47Where you will take a source material and make a video that is referencing the
0:03:52source material, where in this instance you wanted to basically use that material
0:03:59in its entirety with some modifications, right?
0:04:01Like it's, it's different to the way that you would usually adapt to source.
0:04:06There's a couple of things here.
0:04:07Thing number one, for the past maybe two years,
0:04:12I've had it in the back of my mind
0:04:17that it might be interesting to do something
0:04:19like a short story at some point.
0:04:22I didn't have anything really actionable about it,
0:04:25but it was just on my mental radar
0:04:27of things I was keeping in mind in the world
0:04:30and what am I looking out for and what can I possibly find?
0:04:33So it was a thing I was scanning for in the world.
0:04:37What eventually ended up happening,
0:04:39to give the longer version of this then,
0:04:42is viewers may remember that a little while ago,
0:04:47I did a video about death, which got people quite worried.
0:04:50I don't know why, I'm just talking about a topic,
0:04:54but people were concerned.
0:04:55- I think it was, again, was the problem.
0:04:57That wasn't your first video about death.
0:05:02- No, well, yeah, okay.
0:05:04So, okay, so I did a couple of videos about death.
0:05:07- I did a whole death series, you could say.
0:05:09- Yeah.
0:05:10Now, okay, so this is exactly it though.
0:05:12Here was the original plan.
0:05:15Me and my friend, Philip from Kurtzkazza,
0:05:19we were talking about doing a little series on this topic.
0:05:23And so back in October, we roughly had a plan
0:05:28that we were each going to do like a pair of videos
0:05:32every two weeks for a month or six weeks.
0:05:36So in the end, the idea was going to be like,
0:05:39there'll be six videos, we've each done three,
0:05:42and the videos will cross-promote,
0:05:44and they'll be talking about this topic
0:05:45that we think is interesting,
0:05:48and perhaps people haven't thought of it
0:05:50in the way that we think maybe people should think of it.
0:05:53- And you're referring to the fable?
0:05:55- Well, okay, so the original plan
0:05:57was that we were going to do several videos.
0:06:00- Right. - Right, now,
0:06:01In this plan, the fable that I have just uploaded was supposed to have been uploaded back in
0:06:09November.
0:06:10Ah, it was a part of the series.
0:06:13Right, so it was going to be a part of the series.
0:06:17There was going to be the first video that I did, which was called "Why Die?"
0:06:22The little like footnote sort of follow-up thing, which was like, I don't know, like
0:06:28almost like a little piece of concept art,
0:06:31which was the 24 Hours of Death was the next one in that series.
0:06:34But that was supposed to be just like the weird little middle one,
0:06:38and then the fable was going to be the final one in this series.
0:06:44That was the original idea.
0:06:47But what happened is,
0:06:50this project dramatically expanded in scope very quickly.
0:06:57So the original idea was, I know what I can do to produce something quickly.
0:07:01I'm going to take an already finished thing.
0:07:05There's this short story.
0:07:07All I have to do is I'm going to read it.
0:07:10Because that removes the typical bottleneck,
0:07:12which is how long it takes you to write a script, right?
0:07:15Yeah, exactly.
0:07:15That removes what is the bottleneck for me,
0:07:18which is I spend a lot of time writing these things and I thought a thing has
0:07:24already been written.
0:07:25I have but to speak it aloud,
0:07:27and then I have to work with an illustrator
0:07:30who I've worked with before,
0:07:32and get storybook images made.
0:07:35Maybe it'll be a little bit like a Ken Burns documentary,
0:07:38you know, a Civil War documentary.
0:07:39We'll have some still images.
0:07:41There'll be a little zoom in, little zoom out maybe,
0:07:44little pan across these images.
0:07:47But this should be a nice, quick, simple project.
0:07:52But that is not what happened.
0:07:54that is not remotely what happened.
0:07:57- Did you get a little bit creative, Greg?
0:07:59Is that the problem?
0:08:00- Okay, there's a couple of problems.
0:08:06- I became an artiste.
0:08:07- Okay, problem number one.
0:08:13Have you ever seen the behind the scenes videos
0:08:18about the production of the original
0:08:22Lord of the Rings trilogy, Myke?
0:08:23[Laughter]
0:08:28No, Grey.
0:08:29Oh, I highly recommend them.
0:08:31Grey, do you know I've only seen one of the Lord of the Rings movies and didn't like it?
0:08:35Don't tell me this, Myke. I didn't hear that. I'm just going to keep moving on.
0:08:38So, you just haven't -- it's like, it's understandable you wouldn't have seen these because I'm not sure if they exist in digital form,
0:08:44but they were like DVDs back in the day. You had to buy like a huge big box set.
0:08:48So it's understandable that you might not have come across them, because obviously you would be searching them out.
0:08:52- I mean, obviously, I mean, I love Lord of the Rings.
0:08:55- You do, excellent. - But I came to it
0:08:56just a little bit late, I guess,
0:08:58so I never had them on DVD.
0:08:59- Yeah, you came to it late.
0:09:01- Came to it late.
0:09:02- I watch these things obsessively
0:09:05because it was the first time that I had
0:09:09ever seen explained the process of,
0:09:13like, how do you take a book and turn it into a movie?
0:09:17Now, in the modern world,
0:09:19there are a million YouTube channels
0:09:21channels that talk about the process of film and how do you do things and like the structure
0:09:25that a film requires like this is a much more well known concept. It's much more out in
0:09:30the world now. But back when the Lord of the Rings movies first came out, this was my first
0:09:35exposure to this idea of like, we're a team of people trying to structure some movies,
0:09:42and in particular, trying to structure what might be one of the most unfilmable series
0:09:50of books that has ever been written. Like the Lord of the Rings does not translate well
0:09:54into a movie and I think they did an amazing job doing that. I thought about this a lot
0:09:59in the process of making this video because I originally thought I just need to read it
0:10:04out loud but the very first few times when I read it out loud I realized oh no. It's
0:10:13complicated. This does not work at all as a video. It suddenly becomes obvious when you sit down and
0:10:21you think what am I going to have on the screen while I'm saying these words and as soon as the
0:10:29door was open to I'm going to have to modify this document it's like all of what would have been
0:10:37easy is now gone because now that seal is broken and I'm going to start doing my iteration
0:10:43process so like I'm going to go over and over and over the story.
0:10:47So did you, well so you considered that the complication was that you had to adapt it
0:10:50not that it needed additional work in animating.
0:10:54Yeah I mean that was going to be problem number two is I dramatically underestimated how many
0:10:58images need to be on the screen that the time frame I had originally set out was an insane
0:11:03man's time frame because I thought like oh there's only like 10 images I need and we
0:11:08can get 80% of the way there. I was like nope nope not even remotely. But before that could
0:11:16even happen was the process of trying to change it into something that could be a video. Now
0:11:24here's the thing that original paper is indisputably more convincing and more interesting than
0:11:33that I produced.
0:11:34Like that paper is a famous paper for this very reason.
0:11:38Like it's a good story and it goes through all of these
0:11:42different like tangents that relate to a whole array
0:11:47of aspects around this topic, which is the topic of death.
0:11:51And it like is just incredibly well done,
0:11:55but not all of it works in video format.
0:11:59Like when you're explaining about how a hospital works,
0:12:02Like it just, there are big sections where you can't really show it on screen.
0:12:07And so it seems like it should be easy, but I thought about that, that Lord of the Rings documentary all the time,
0:12:14because I remember the script writers seemed like they were like, "Oh God, we're having such a hard time with this."
0:12:19And you sort of think like, "Oh, but don't you just, you just cut some parts and you put it together and bam, you've got a movie."
0:12:24And you realize like, no, you have to cut parts, but still leave it as a coherent whole.
0:12:30It still has to be the original thing that you're trying to make, like you're not making a thing from scratch.
0:12:35You just have to be really selective about what is going to go.
0:12:40And that just took far, far longer than I expected it would.
0:12:46Did you find it harder to modify fiction?
0:12:51Yeah, in some ways, because there are some little parts that I've added as well.
0:12:57and I don't work in fiction.
0:13:02- 'Cause I assume there was a little bit
0:13:04of like a creator's dilemma there of like,
0:13:06is it good enough?
0:13:07'Cause you are taking something
0:13:08that is an incredible piece of kind of fiction, right?
0:13:12- Yeah.
0:13:13- It's fiction, but like was a study, a paper.
0:13:15But if you've got to add to it, it has to be good enough.
0:13:19- Yeah, well, yeah.
0:13:20And this is also like the pressure,
0:13:22which is, this is a philosopher who is incredibly
0:13:27well-renowned the world over with very important people,
0:13:31and he's written this very important paper.
0:13:32And I'm like, I'm gonna tweak it a little bit
0:13:34here and there, right?
0:13:36- I don't think you could do a bit more succinct.
0:13:39Let me see if I can help you with that.
0:13:41- Yeah, and that's what it is.
0:13:42It's like, well, I'm gonna cut this down,
0:13:43and it's like, oh God.
0:13:44So it did, it was, that was a lot of pressure.
0:13:50Like, I have gotten the thumbs up to the final production,
0:13:54but it was a lot of pressure
0:13:56and a very different kind of thing to do.
0:13:58-So you communicated with the author about it?
0:14:00-At the beginning, I contacted Nick Bostrom
0:14:02to ask for permission because, like, I don't --
0:14:05I want to make sure that you're okay with this project.
0:14:08There have been other people who've tried
0:14:09to do adaptations of this, but, like,
0:14:11I want to make sure this is all above board.
0:14:13And then at the end, like, I sent the final thing along,
0:14:15and it was like, "Oh, great, thanks."
0:14:17So I was hugely relieved,
0:14:19as opposed to getting back an email of like,
0:14:21you've totally misunderstood my work, you fool.
0:14:23- What's wrong with you?
0:14:24It's obvious.
0:14:25Why did you ruin it?
0:14:27- Yeah, so it was a lot of pressure,
0:14:32but there are things that I'm really pleased with.
0:14:35I did have to add some details when I took other things out.
0:14:39So in the original version, the king doesn't have a wife.
0:14:42There's no queen in the story at all.
0:14:45So it's like I just added her as a visual element
0:14:47that I think works really well.
0:14:49- I think that's a good emotional moment
0:14:51with the locket, I like that.
0:14:54- Yeah.
0:14:54- I think it added, honestly, I will say,
0:14:56I don't know the original, but it personally added a lot
0:14:59to the story for me because when the guy is pleading,
0:15:04you should see the video, if you've not seen the video
0:15:06at this point, it'll be in the show notes,
0:15:08you can watch the video.
0:15:09When the guy is pleading with the king,
0:15:11it adds to the king's kind of motive
0:15:15for why he thinks this is important.
0:15:17if he is also lost.
0:15:18I think that that is a,
0:15:22it was for me an important part of the story
0:15:24to show that the king's motivation is pure, right?
0:15:28He feels like the dragon needs to be killed
0:15:30and he understands that this guy's gonna lose his dad,
0:15:34but everybody's lost someone,
0:15:35he lost the most important person to him.
0:15:38And again, I also like thinking back to it now,
0:15:40that happened in between the moment
0:15:42of them deciding this project or not
0:15:43Because she's sitting behind him in the town meeting, right?
0:15:48And so between then and the time they shoot the missile, he's had to send his wife away.
0:15:53Yeah, in the canon of where the wife is, I feel like it's months before the final event
0:15:59has occurred, because the last scene that she's in is she's there celebrating the successful
0:16:05test launch with him.
0:16:07And then, you know, you don't see her there anymore.
0:16:08And it's like, at some point between those two events, she disappears.
0:16:12then there's the king with the locket. So that came along relatively late, like maybe
0:16:20three weeks before the final production, but I have to say I was really pleased with that
0:16:25addition. I haven't really worked with fiction before, but I was like, I think this is a
0:16:29detail that adds to this.
0:16:31So you should be great. Author, podcaster, YouTuber.
0:16:35Yeah, no, but I'm not an author. This is the thing that I've often thought, like if I hadn't
0:16:41ended up doing YouTube or having this public career, I have often thought that a job that
0:16:48I could be pretty good at would be like a second or third draft editor on movie scripts.
0:16:54Like I could never write the original thing, but I've often thought like if I was the
0:16:59second or third guy to look at a script, which is a very standard process when you're doing
0:17:03movies like you have drafts and you send them off to different people, I thought like I
0:17:08could do that. Not that I could ever create something from scratch, but I think I could
0:17:12find the places where you don't need this plot line or like if you add this element
0:17:17it would be a little better.
0:17:18Like I can't do it, but I can tell you what's wrong with it. And that's like critics,
0:17:22right? Like a film critic can't necessarily make a movie, but they can look at a movie
0:17:27and they can tell you what they think should be changed. And that's just a different
0:17:31skill set.
0:17:32Yeah. But anyway, so like, it's just funny because this is a little moment in my life
0:17:37It's like, "Oh, I got to kind of test this idea.
0:17:39Like, can I actually do a draft on somebody else's story
0:17:43and adapt it to a different medium?"
0:17:47And I feel like I pulled it off pretty well.
0:17:50Yeah, so in addition to adding elements,
0:17:51it was just an enormous amount of trying to cut
0:17:54and focus on just a few elements.
0:17:58And I really think people should read the original paper.
0:18:03Again, the original paper is better and more convincing
0:18:06and more interesting in every way because you can do so much more with just written
0:18:12text where it's less like you're having to hold people's visual attention while
0:18:18there's related videos on the side trying to pull them away. Like it's a very different
0:18:21medium, and I think it is better. But I'm super pleased with what came out of this in
0:18:29the end, but it was… I'm gonna say, of all of the projects I have worked on in my
0:18:37adult career, this is probably the one where I underestimated how much work it would be
0:18:43by the most. Simply because I thought like, it will be straightforward and it isn't.
0:18:49Yeah, and like it's not necessarily the thing you've worked on the longest, but
0:18:54it was the, like, when you're looking at the ratios of how easy you think it's gonna
0:18:58be in the time you allotted and how long it actually ended up taking.
0:19:01Yeah, because I originally thought like, oh, this is going to be like a three week, four
0:19:05week project at most. Like, whoops. No, it is not. No, it is not at all.
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0:21:20It's also interesting seeing, like, cutting out parts
0:21:23that you particularly like and realizing,
0:21:27"Oh, this needs to go even though I like it."
0:21:30And one that feels like a very cortex kind of scene
0:21:33that's in the original is,
0:21:35while this whole thing is going on with the dragon,
0:21:38there is a rattlesnake infestation
0:21:40that occurs in the kingdom.
0:21:42And it's like, I love in the original paper
0:21:46this rattlesnake infestation
0:21:48because the purpose of it is the rattlesnakes are new
0:21:52and people are scared of rattlesnakes,
0:21:54and a couple of people have died from the rattlesnakes,
0:21:56and it becomes this thing that the kingdom,
0:21:59like, they demand right now,
0:22:00like, you gotta get rid of this rattlesnake infestation.
0:22:03And the whole point of it is to illustrate the idea
0:22:06of the urgent versus the important.
0:22:09- Ah, yeah. - And it's like,
0:22:10the rattlesnakes are new and they feel urgent,
0:22:14but they're not remotely important,
0:22:16and they're a huge diversion from what the actual problem is.
0:22:21- Like give it 10 years and you'll be sacrificed
0:22:23into the rattlesnakes as well.
0:22:25- Yeah, and it was like, it just like,
0:22:28it hurt me to the core to lose,
0:22:31I'm like, I love the rattlesnakes, right?
0:22:33But I showed it to a couple of people and like,
0:22:35dude, you gotta lose the rattlesnakes, nobody cares.
0:22:37Like you're having this whole story about a dragon
0:22:39and then you have this side tangent about rattlesnakes
0:22:41and like, no, but it's really important,
0:22:42the idea between the urge, like, it's not for this medium.
0:22:45medium. Like this is a story that you can't tell in a video.
0:22:49I actually agree with everything that I love the idea of that,
0:22:52that is genius, but it would have been too much, too much to keep track of.
0:22:56Like, why are there snakes? Like, how did they get rid of the snakes?
0:22:59And then you forget about the dragon and all the dragons back, like it's too much.
0:23:03It's just too much going on for what is a high concept that you're just walking
0:23:07into as well, right?
0:23:08Like the person presses play and then a book unfolds and they're given a story.
0:23:12Like, there's enough time just trying to work out
0:23:15what is happening before you can really latch on
0:23:17to the story, so like keeping the story
0:23:19as simple as possible probably worked out pretty well
0:23:23for you, I think.
0:23:24- Yeah, and the original would've just been way too long.
0:23:26I think the first time I read it through
0:23:29and I timed it, it was something like 30, 35 minutes
0:23:33to get to the end at like a speaking voice.
0:23:35- I will say, I think it would've kinda liked that.
0:23:37Like, you know, as much as I enjoyed the video,
0:23:40like I think I would want more of it.
0:23:42Like, whilst I understand, it's probably too much,
0:23:45I kinda like the idea of a 35 minute video,
0:23:49but I'm probably very alone in this,
0:23:52especially to YouTube's algorithm.
0:23:54Me and the algorithm disagree significantly on this,
0:23:56I would expect.
0:23:57- This is a good example though,
0:23:59of my feeling with so many things in life,
0:24:02where you can never know if you get it exactly right,
0:24:05but you can know which way is better to overshoot.
0:24:10and this is a case in video format
0:24:13where you always want to overshoot under, right?
0:24:16It's much better to have a video that people feel like,
0:24:19"Oh, I would like more of that."
0:24:21- Overshoot under? - Versus a video
0:24:23where people feel like.
0:24:24- What is that phrase?
0:24:27Overshoot under?
0:24:28- You could overshoot over and you can overshoot under.
0:24:31- All right, can I give you a better phrase
0:24:33for this one, please? - No.
0:24:35- Can we go with under promise and over deliver?
0:24:37Can we go with that one?
0:24:38- No, because that makes no sense in this context.
0:24:41- Of course it does, Grey.
0:24:42Overshoot under, what, like there's two basketball hoops
0:24:45and like you go into the middle one,
0:24:47which is still impressive 'cause it's 60 feet away
0:24:50rather than the 90 feet, like I don't, you know, like--
0:24:52- I think it makes perfect sense, Myke.
0:24:53You just don't like my phrasing.
0:24:55(laughing)
0:24:57- That's kind of the problem.
0:25:00I'm not disagreeing with the sentiment.
0:25:02- The reason why I'm using overshoot under, right,
0:25:04is like, okay, let me explain.
0:25:06Is because again, the metaphor in my mind
0:25:08with so many things is that you have a dial
0:25:10and you want the dial to be set at the perfect marker,
0:25:14but you don't know what that marker is, right?
0:25:18Where exactly should that dial be turned?
0:25:20So you can overshoot in both directions.
0:25:24You can overshoot too much and you can overshoot too little.
0:25:27Like you're missing the target.
0:25:29And so like, which way do you want to go?
0:25:32That's always the important question to ask.
0:25:34And I think with video format,
0:25:36too short is almost universally better than too long.
0:25:41Without question, that's the way that you want to --
0:25:44you want to err on that side.
0:25:46That may not be the case with many other things,
0:25:49but with this format, I really think it matters.
0:25:53And after many, many, many dozens of revisions,
0:25:59there was not a shorter version of that story
0:26:02that I could have conceived of.
0:26:04Like I tried to wring out every version I possibly could,
0:26:09and the rattlesnakes were the last to go.
0:26:12- Yeah, I mean, you know, I think you made the right decision.
0:26:14Like I wasn't checking the progress bar, you know,
0:26:17as the video was going, right?
0:26:18And that's kind of like a warning sign to me.
0:26:21You know, if I'm watching a video
0:26:22and I tap the screen to see how far along I am.
0:26:25- Yeah, that's always a bad sign.
0:26:27- That's the death knell.
0:26:28That's the death knell of a video, right?
0:26:30Especially when you go into it,
0:26:32it's like, oh, this is 13 minutes, right?
0:26:34And you press play.
0:26:35If I start tapping around minute two,
0:26:38like you haven't done very well there, my friend, you know,
0:26:41and I wasn't finding myself doing that.
0:26:43Like it was gripping enough.
0:26:45I do just want to circle back and say that I do not agree
0:26:48with the metaphor that you have created still.
0:26:52I agree with what you're trying to say.
0:26:55I disagree with the metaphor.
0:26:56I just want people to know that because I disagree.
0:27:00In a different way to the Forest Fire one where I just flat out didn't like that.
0:27:04Your objection has been noted.
0:27:05I just need everyone to know that that phrase is poppycock and I don't like it.
0:27:11What about the boulder?
0:27:12Do you object to the boulder metaphor, Myke?
0:27:14Or can we come back to that later?
0:27:16I don't want to talk about that right now.
0:27:18We actually may come back to that later on.
0:27:21So I actually got a bunch of questions in our Cortex subreddit for you.
0:27:25Oh yeah?
0:27:26to pick a couple out from a post from the user QuirkyRain07 who asked some questions
0:27:32that I thought very interesting as it pertains to the creation of this video. So I'll give
0:27:38you a couple of these. So what was your role in making this video? Because with the script
0:27:45you kind of serve more of an editor than a writer, right? Like you really, again, whilst
0:27:49you adapted it, and we think we can see you've added to it, it wasn't an original kind of
0:27:55idea and thought from you. And also there seemed to be significantly more asset creation
0:28:02than usual. Animating, there was more music, there was also an illustrator, which I think
0:28:08is kind of different to your usual process. So were you kind of acting as a director?
0:28:14What was your role in the creation of this video? Were you way more involved than usual
0:28:20in the kind of the piecing things together?
0:28:23Well, I mean, it's listed in the credits, Myke. It's very clear. It says "adapted
0:28:28and narrated by CGP Grey."
0:28:30Right. So is that what you did then? You just gave the audio and then let everybody else
0:28:34run on their merry way and then just a video popped out at the end of it?
0:28:38Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess it could say "produced, adapted and narrated by CGP Grey."
0:28:44Exactly.
0:28:45But then I would look like an a**hole, right?
0:28:47Surely you did do that though, or produced, directed, adapted and narrated by the renowned
0:28:56author CGP Grey.
0:28:57No, but I'm not an author at all.
0:28:58I've written nothing.
0:28:59Why do I keep getting that wrong?
0:29:00This is also just to be really clear.
0:29:02I don't know why, again.
0:29:03I am edited at best.
0:29:06By the world-renowned podcaster CGP Grey.
0:29:09That's why you narrated it, because you're a podcaster, right?
0:29:12You're used to the audio medium.
0:29:13I am very used to the audio medium because I record all of the audio for my videos, Myke.
0:29:22But yeah, I don't know what this role would be called, but it was a very different process
0:29:32because in almost everything that I work with with other people, it's like I'm usually
0:29:41working with one other person or one other person is the primary contact through which
0:29:50other people exist, but I tend to just be very one-on-one in the way that I collaborate.
0:29:57But this was the first time that it was much more of a coordination between the team.
0:30:07And the thing that I think is throwing people off in the credits, so let me explain the
0:30:11the roles like as it seems to me. So obviously I am adapting and narrating, that's obvious.
0:30:17There's music and also sound design, which is obvious. That role is very clear.
0:30:22But that's different though, right? Sound design. You don't usually have sound design
0:30:26in your videos.
0:30:27Yes, that is true. This is a thing that came up in the process that was suggested and I
0:30:32was like, that is a brilliant idea that never would have occurred to me, like go for it.
0:30:36Yeah, it adds a new dimension to it, sorry. I think that the sound effects were – I
0:30:41I mean, you know anyone that is a Relay FM member knows Myke loves the sound effect.
0:30:46He is sound effect wild and there are going to be some great sound effects this year.
0:30:52Very excited. We'll talk about that later.
0:30:55But if you want to hear Myke's handiwork with those sound effects, where can they go,
0:30:59Myke?
0:31:00relay.fm/membership. Sign up to become a member and you will get our bonus content
0:31:04which includes a couple of text adventures that we've gone on together, including the
0:31:09pronounced spooky manna.
0:31:11- Yeah, there'll be plenty of sound effects in there for you.
0:31:15So yeah, that was a thing that just didn't cross my mind,
0:31:18but then it became part of the process,
0:31:20and I was like, okay, great, this is way better.
0:31:22But the one that seems to confuse people
0:31:23is illustration versus animation.
0:31:25So it's been interesting to get feedback
0:31:29from people that I've shown it to,
0:31:30because I'm looking at it in a very different way
0:31:33than I think the viewers are.
0:31:36but there are the actual drawings that you're seeing.
0:31:40So there is the drawing of the dragon,
0:31:42there's the king, there's the queen,
0:31:44they're all of the people.
0:31:45That to me is the illustration.
0:31:49That's what's occurring there.
0:31:52But what's not obvious behind the scenes
0:31:53is the way we set it up is that almost all of those pieces
0:31:58are done as separate little Photoshop drawings
0:32:02so that they can all be moved by the animator,
0:32:05the person who is animating the things, bringing them to life. But those are two separate roles.
0:32:13Now, if you're just doing stick figures, an animator can very easily also be the illustrator
0:32:20that can be the same person.
0:32:21Because I think we spoke about this when you brought your animator on, that there was a
0:32:26library of assets already created by you, right, that they were taking from primarily,
0:32:32creating their own when necessary, but it's very different and this is in a very different
0:32:38style.
0:32:39Yeah, and to go back to those episodes when we were talking about me bringing on an animator
0:32:43in the first place, one of the questions, one of the things I was really looking for
0:32:47because it was my first like real hire in quotes, was I was trying to find someone who
0:32:54could play both of those roles. I was aware that that might not be possible, but that's
0:32:58that I was really hoping for.
0:32:59So like with the first person,
0:33:01I want to be able to find someone who can,
0:33:03who can both do new stick figure drawings
0:33:06in a way that looks like my style
0:33:08or even improves upon my style, which totally has.
0:33:11- Same person. - And can also animate.
0:33:14Like I'm looking for those things.
0:33:16And now is the first time,
0:33:20and there may be exploratory motions in the future
0:33:22in different directions for this,
0:33:23where it's like, oh, maybe I can look at bringing someone on
0:33:27who is just an animator, right? Or who is someone who is just an illustrator.
0:33:32To be more ambitious.
0:33:34Yeah, this was an interesting project for me because it was the first time and it was
0:33:37a way I really could see that by, you know, like the whole of the economy, by increasing
0:33:44the specialization that people can do, you can do more.
0:33:46Yeah.
0:33:47Right, where it's like, I can't write music, I can't draw that well, I can't
0:33:51that cleverly. But I can act as a coordinator between these people and I can bring my skills
0:33:59to the table, which is the editing and smoothing down and simplifying of a complicated thing.
0:34:07And then all of those elements together become something that none of us could have produced
0:34:13individually. And so it was just really interesting to see because it just made it so
0:34:21different than anything else that I've put together before. And again, I have to say
0:34:27I'm really, really pleased with the way it came out.
0:34:30I think you should be. I'm watching it silently here as we're talking because it would be
0:34:37really distracting to listen to it as well.
0:34:39Yeah, I think that would be hard.
0:34:41But it is visually… I mean, you know, I'm not trying to suck up to you here, but this
0:34:48could be on TV.
0:34:49You're not sucking up to me because I didn't draw or animate any of the visuals.
0:34:54Then I'll suck up to your animator and illustrator.
0:34:57The visuals here are as good as something I could imagine watching on like children's
0:35:03TV, right?
0:35:04Like, you know, like that this would be an educational program that might be on the BBC
0:35:07or something.
0:35:09Because it is such a striking and kind of original style, like the way that everybody
0:35:15I feel like I have and haven't seen this type of way of depicting people before.
0:35:23It's kind of unique in its own way.
0:35:25It is very, very attractive.
0:35:28I think the time, and I'm expecting significantly increased budget required to do it this way,
0:35:38was worth it.
0:35:39I'm looking at this and I think that it was worth it, and that does actually lead me into
0:35:44a question which about 25 people have asked me about the money involved in this. Like,
0:35:52obviously this was a more expensive thing to do. Is the ROI calculation positive and
0:35:58does that matter?
0:35:59Peter: Yeah, well, at the time of recording, the final bill has not come due. So I can't
0:36:10like exact comparisons to other projects but easily, easily just ball parking it in my
0:36:19head compared to other projects that I've worked on. When you factor in the amount of
0:36:23time that was spent, when you factor in the dramatically increased cost and the ungodly
0:36:31number of human hours that have been poured into this thing, it has to be one of the worst
0:36:39return on investment projects I have yet worked on. It's measured in those terms of like dollars
0:36:48back per dollar time hour spent. I think it's got to be near the very bottom of projects
0:36:55that I've worked on.
0:36:56Right, but this, you know, coupling with what we were just talking about, this can be the
0:37:02problem with assuming that all work must be positive on revenue generated alone, because
0:37:12this project has shown you that, "Oh, I can make significantly more exciting and interesting
0:37:18things if I have an animator." Well then, if you factor that into potential future revenue,
0:37:24this is a very different equation, right? You may look at this video right now and be
0:37:29"Well, lost money on that one."
0:37:31But in a year, you could be like,
0:37:33"Oh, well, then we brought on this animator as well,
0:37:36and our videos became significantly more popular,
0:37:40and we made significantly higher returns on every video."
0:37:43And then it changes the equation for this one, right?
0:37:46- Yeah, I mean, there's a few things here.
0:37:50The one that I wanna say is like,
0:37:52we'll get to the business end of it in a second,
0:37:54so let's not forget that.
0:37:56But on a personal level, this was a project
0:38:00that was really important to me.
0:38:02And I was very aware of everybody I worked with
0:38:07had just total free reign.
0:38:10Like anything you can think of to do to make this better,
0:38:13just go for it.
0:38:14Like I'm not checking in with billable hours.
0:38:18Like just go. - Not nickel and dime
0:38:19on this one. - Yeah.
0:38:20Like I don't want progress reports
0:38:22on how much you're spending this week.
0:38:24I don't want any of this.
0:38:25Like, if you think it can be better,
0:38:27if you think it can be better, just go for it.
0:38:29And part of that was,
0:38:34because this was originally intended as this little series,
0:38:39this little crossover series,
0:38:40I was really disappointed with the way
0:38:44my first video came out in that series.
0:38:46Like, I just don't-- It was not what I wanted it to be.
0:38:49And probably is one of the videos I'm the most unhappy with
0:38:53in the past many years.
0:38:54Which one was that one?
0:38:55It's the Why Die one.
0:38:57Okay.
0:38:5824 Hours of Death.
0:38:59I love that one.
0:39:00I think that one's great.
0:39:01Genius.
0:39:02I mean, I really liked Why Die.
0:39:03I mean, it's not my favorite CGP Grey video of all time, but like, I enjoyed it.
0:39:08The thing that is disappointing to me is like, there's...
0:39:10Whenever you create anything, there's the idea of it in your head, and then there's
0:39:13the ugly reality of what you have birthed.
0:39:17And boy, boy are those things different sometimes.
0:39:21But sometimes you feel like, you know,
0:39:23after you have birthed the thing
0:39:24and you're looking at like the blood all over your hands
0:39:27and this mess of meat that you're holding,
0:39:28you're like, "How did this happen?"
0:39:31- Why do you write metaphors this way now?
0:39:33Like what is going on?
0:39:35(laughing)
0:39:36- I think it's a good metaphor.
0:39:37But it's like, it looks horrible.
0:39:41You're like, "This is not what I was intending
0:39:42"to create in the world at all."
0:39:45And I think the why die one is probably the one
0:39:48where the version of that in my head
0:39:49is the most different than the thing
0:39:52that I ended up creating.
0:39:53But we don't need to revisit it.
0:39:55There were a lot of constraints
0:39:55around the production of that.
0:39:58But it's partly why I really felt
0:40:00that just by the choice of projects,
0:40:02it happened to be that what I was intending
0:40:04to be the third and final thing in this little series
0:40:07basically gave me a chance to try to redo that first one.
0:40:13And so that was also why I really want this to be good.
0:40:18be good. And I don't want to make another thing and feel like, "Oh, man, I only got
0:40:26one out of the three that I was aiming for." And now I feel like, "Oh, I got two out
0:40:30of three. I'm pretty happy about this." And so that was part of the reason.
0:40:36Other part of the reason is I do think it's an important topic to talk about. And it sure
0:40:42does bring out a lot of interesting conversation, much more so than other topics I touch upon.
0:40:48which you can see from the crazy number of comments on the video and in the Reddit.
0:40:52Which never hurts.
0:40:53It never hurts. It never hurts.
0:40:55It can be weird, but it doesn't hurt.
0:40:58It doesn't hurt.
0:40:5914,000 comments? My word! That's a lot of comments.
0:41:04There's a lot of discussion going on about the video.
0:41:08Yeah, the YouTube numbers are crazy as well.
0:41:11That's wild. I've just looked at the comment numbers on the rules for rulers,
0:41:15which I think is your most popular,
0:41:16or one of your most popular videos,
0:41:17six million views, that has 19,000 comments.
0:41:21The current video is approaching a million
0:41:24and it has nearly as many.
0:41:27That's wild.
0:41:28That's really crazy, wow.
0:41:29- So it's like, yeah, the comment view ratio
0:41:32is six times higher than rules for rulers.
0:41:34- Yeah.
0:41:35- Yeah, it brings out some interesting conversation.
0:41:39(laughing)
0:41:41- That I will not take a part in, but it can happen.
0:41:44We can skip right by for the moment.
0:41:46(laughing)
0:41:47But I can just say people sometimes have some very
0:41:49interesting interpretations of things.
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0:43:42(beep)
0:43:43I do feel much more responsibility on the videos
0:43:45where I'm working with somebody else's material
0:43:48as opposed to assembling something on my own.
0:43:51So the previous video about how machines learn,
0:43:54like that video I put in front of people
0:43:57who have talked about the topic
0:43:58or like I send off to some experts
0:44:00and like I wanna get the topic right
0:44:02and I feel really good when people see the topic
0:44:07and they send back and they're like,
0:44:08"Oh yeah, you've done a good job explaining this."
0:44:11But it's very different when I'm adapting the book of an author, right?
0:44:16And this one was even more so.
0:44:18It's like, I'm not even trying to convey the ideas in your story.
0:44:22I'm trying to make a version of your story that's a video.
0:44:26Fiction's harder because nonfiction is like facts and research and you can be like, well,
0:44:30I did this research and I don't agree with your point.
0:44:33I think of it this way and this is what I'm pointing to and saying, you know, there you
0:44:37go.
0:44:38That's why I disagree with this.
0:44:39If you're taking somebody's imagination and telling them, like, "I think it should be
0:44:43done differently," that's an emotional thing that you're giving to that person.
0:44:48Yeah.
0:44:49So that's also why I really felt like just as many human hours as is necessary to make
0:44:55it good, like, let's go for it.
0:44:57Although even there, you know, you have to set some limits.
0:45:02Go draw the line somewhere.
0:45:03You have to draw the line for yourself because, you know, Myke, I know I told you that I built
0:45:08black monolith that I'm in for you and podcasting.
0:45:12But that wasn't really truthful.
0:45:15It's very useful for podcasting.
0:45:17But the whole saga of building the black monolith
0:45:19was entirely motivated by this project.
0:45:22That I wanted to have a much better audio setup.
0:45:25- You want a clean audio.
0:45:25- I want clean audio.
0:45:27I wanted something that was at least,
0:45:30I knew I couldn't replicate it,
0:45:32but I wanted to get something that was at least close
0:45:35to the cleanliness of audio books
0:45:37when you have high production values for those.
0:45:40Like I did as best as I think I could do as an individual
0:45:44for approaching that level.
0:45:45- Well, I mean like considering how much money
0:45:47you threw at this project,
0:45:48why didn't you just like hire a studio for a day?
0:45:51- I seriously considered it,
0:45:53but one of the reasons I knew hiring studios
0:45:56wouldn't be great is because I knew I was gonna end up
0:45:59doing multiple takes of this,
0:46:00which certainly happened over a long period of time.
0:46:03- And that doesn't work.
0:46:04There were three different versions of the audio composed from, I think in the end, eight different takes.
0:46:12And each time I was trying to get it better and more what I would want it to be.
0:46:18And this is where I did stop myself because I still don't like that final take.
0:46:24I feel like it's very close, but it's not really perfect of what I would want.
0:46:28But this is also a case where I had to set some limits for myself and say,
0:46:32- All right, after eight takes, we're done.
0:46:35You don't like, it's not perfect.
0:46:36- You're probably not gonna do any better than this, right?
0:46:38Like you can keep trying,
0:46:40but it's just gonna be wrong in different ways.
0:46:43- Yeah, I think I could have done better
0:46:44if I had more time.
0:46:45- How much more time?
0:46:46- But at a certain point,
0:46:48I am the bottleneck in the process
0:46:50where the animation, the illustrations,
0:46:53they need to be moved against the actual audio,
0:46:56I'm going to say,
0:46:57so we can see like, where are we missing?
0:47:01Like where are our images on the screen too long?
0:47:04What doesn't quite work with the exact timing
0:47:07of the way I've said things?
0:47:07Like there's so many details that hang on
0:47:12finalizing the audio that this was a place
0:47:15where it's like I got it 90% of the way
0:47:16where I want it to be and I'm gonna have to stop myself
0:47:20'cause I will rerecord this for another month
0:47:23if I have my way.
0:47:24- And I guess the problem is you're about to start traveling
0:47:27for the summer, so you didn't have any more time to record it in the black monolith, right?
0:47:34Like this was it, right? You can't push it on three more months because otherwise
0:47:38this video comes out in November.
0:47:40Matthew: Yeah, there is a very… we were really down to the wire on this one, where
0:47:47if this video had not come out when it did, which is a couple of days ago as we're recording,
0:47:52it probably wouldn't have come out until after the end of the summer, precisely because
0:47:57people's schedules are all of a sudden less available.
0:48:00I'm less around.
0:48:01So like we were really pushing it to get it out
0:48:03by the end of April,
0:48:04because we knew like we're gonna start,
0:48:06it's going to get into that time
0:48:08where there are just big delays
0:48:10because someone isn't available.
0:48:12Very often that would be me
0:48:14and you just can't move the thing forward.
0:48:17So yeah, it was like, we gotta get it out at this time.
0:48:21And that was partly what was,
0:48:23I was able to tell myself like,
0:48:24I can stop recording this audio
0:48:25because otherwise we don't have a chance of making it.
0:48:29- So what about the business side then?
0:48:30You said we're gonna come back to the business side.
0:48:32We've done the personal ROI part.
0:48:34- Yeah, I mean I guess you can do art above commerce
0:48:39sometimes, but not all of the time.
0:48:43- And there's nothing wrong with that.
0:48:44I do this almost on a weekly basis.
0:48:46I produce things that I know I'm never gonna make
0:48:48any money on because I want to make them.
0:48:51- What is your most recent art over commerce project?
0:48:54Like what's something like that that you've done recently?
0:48:57- Streaming Portal 2 for eight hours.
0:49:00(laughing)
0:49:02You know?
0:49:03- That's not profitable, Myke?
0:49:05- It will be eventually.
0:49:06- Uh-huh, but not today.
0:49:08- It is, my first, this first stream,
0:49:11I didn't make any money on it.
0:49:13But you know, it is in like, and I guess the same
0:49:15kind of thing that you're thinking of with the animation,
0:49:19right, like I did this thing and it cost me a bunch of money
0:49:22but this actually might work out to be a good thing in the future.
0:49:25And that's how I'm approaching stuff like this.
0:49:28I think in the future it could become a thing,
0:49:30but right now I would do it purely for the love of it.
0:49:33- Yeah.
0:49:35My thoughts on this project is,
0:49:37especially when you're self-employed,
0:49:41I think it's really important to be trying out
0:49:48different things and to just have your mind
0:49:52on different stuff because it's really easy
0:49:58to put your head down and just always work
0:50:03on the thing that's successful and that's great.
0:50:06You can double, triple, and quadruple down
0:50:09on the successful thing and keep your head down,
0:50:11but if you do that all the time,
0:50:12if you don't ever look up and try different things,
0:50:16you may not recognize as the landscape shifts underneath you.
0:50:21So this is a project that I can justify
0:50:23from a business perspective purely for the fact
0:50:26that it is good to do new things
0:50:29and it's good to try out different ways of producing stuff.
0:50:34In a more direct business way,
0:50:38like there have been places that have opened doors
0:50:43about doing a big series for other places.
0:50:48(laughing)
0:50:51- Just when you're walking down the street
0:50:54and someone's door opens and they're like,
0:50:57"Come on, make a series."
0:50:58- You know, it's just like sometimes that's a thing
0:51:02that can come up in conversations with places.
0:51:07Places near or places far, who knows?
0:51:10- Yeah, who knows?
0:51:12- Who knows?
0:51:13No one knows, really.
0:51:14- I was just talking in general.
0:51:15But now in a very small way,
0:51:18I have at least some concept of what it's like
0:51:23to work with a tiny team.
0:51:27You know, again, I'm really only working
0:51:28with three people here,
0:51:29but it's a big difference between working with one person.
0:51:34And it becomes exponentially more difficult.
0:51:38And I would feel like if I ever did something
0:51:44that was much more complicated and involved many more people,
0:51:50I would have at least some better idea
0:51:52of what to expect going into that,
0:51:55as opposed to if we rewind the clock six months,
0:51:58like, I really wouldn't have any sense
0:52:00at all of what that would be.
0:52:02And part of that means recognizing the parts
0:52:05where I'm not good at that.
0:52:09Like we're talking about like,
0:52:10"Oh, this video came out and it's like amazing
0:52:12and I'm really happy with it
0:52:14and like I couldn't imagine anything that's better."
0:52:17But like, I'm not always the best at working with people
0:52:20and it's like, it's useful just to have a sense of like,
0:52:23where am I better or where am I worse with this?
0:52:25Like, how does the process work better
0:52:28or how does the process work worse?
0:52:30And like, maybe that's applicable in the future,
0:52:32maybe it's not.
0:52:32but that's a kind of thing just to know for the business and for myself.
0:52:40So not every individual project needs to be ROI positive,
0:52:45and this one may or may not be,
0:52:46but I'm very pleased with the way it came out in the end.
0:52:50(chime)
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0:54:37How's that journal going, Myke?
0:54:40Well, the journal we spoke about before no longer exists.
0:54:43Oh, so poorly then.
0:54:45No actually.
0:54:46Oh!
0:54:47Little fake out for you.
0:54:48I got a new journal.
0:54:49Ah, it's like the Phoenix Journal rising from the ashes of the other one.
0:54:54- Exactly.
0:54:55So I had a slight problem with the structural integrity
0:54:58of my previous journal.
0:54:59I created the cardinal sin of removing pages
0:55:03from the beginning of the journal
0:55:05before I started using it,
0:55:06which meant the cover started to come off.
0:55:09I should have known better, but nevertheless.
0:55:11And then I decided to go down a different route.
0:55:14I will put links in the show notes to what I bought.
0:55:17There's no point in me explaining it,
0:55:18but it is a really nice paper made in Japan,
0:55:22and it is a company called Hobonichi
0:55:24and they make these specific journal products,
0:55:28like journaling products.
0:55:30And what I like about it is there is a page for every day
0:55:34and it's just blank, it's just got the date on it.
0:55:37So it's not really boxing me in.
0:55:40So it's a smaller book, so because it's smaller,
0:55:44I've had to refine my questions
0:55:46because I don't have much space anymore.
0:55:48But I actually, having done my journal for a bit,
0:55:52I found a different feel for what I wanted to be putting in it.
0:55:58So I want to give you a recap of the questions that I was using and now what I've changed
0:56:03to, which actually means that I now need to get both of these journals in front of me.
0:56:08Okay, so journal one.
0:56:10Before I changed over, I was asking every day, what are my priorities?
0:56:15A good thing that's happened, a bad thing that's happened, what I'm looking forward
0:56:19what I have learned, what is on my mind, and the pens that I've used. That was
0:56:24what was going in on a double page every day. So now I've moved down to a
0:56:28notebook which is single page every day and the single page is probably about a
0:56:35third smaller. So a lot had to go, right? So I started looking at what I
0:56:43had. I decided the first one to go was priorities because all I was doing was
0:56:48just patting myself on the back every day. It was kind of pointless really. It didn't
0:56:52really give me any kind of feeling of like, "Congratulations, you did this thing."
0:56:55All I was doing was opening Todoist, writing some of my tasks down, and then ticking them
0:56:59off at the end of the day. It quickly... the dopamine rush of that quickly went away.
0:57:05Right.
0:57:06Right? Like when I started the journal, it was lovely to be like, "You accomplished
0:57:10these three things." But ultimately, it just became like, "Why am I writing these
0:57:14things down again? They're already written down." So that went quickly.
0:57:17- Yeah, I've like, I really struggled with that thing too,
0:57:22where there's like a use in prioritizing three things
0:57:26that need to happen, but I always find any kind
0:57:31of information duplication, it's just,
0:57:34I cannot maintain it for long periods of time.
0:57:37It's like, oh, this thing's here and it's there.
0:57:39- You start doing it for long enough, and it's like, well,
0:57:43if I'm only saying my priorities are three things,
0:57:45why do I do everything else?
0:57:47And then it's the question of, well, they're also important things, which is why I do them.
0:57:51So then it's, well, what's the point in me doing this in the first place, right? Like,
0:57:54I either start listing everything that's truly important or remove things that aren't. And I
0:57:59didn't really get any specific learning from performing that activity. I can imagine that
0:58:04activity being very valuable for a lot of people. But for me, over time, the value of writing that
0:58:11down every day waned quite quickly. So for me, writing down my pens every day is something that
0:58:17that I like to do because this whole process, and one of the reasons that it has stuck for
0:58:26me is that I love my pens and I don't get to use them as much as I would like and my
0:58:33little self-imposed rule of using two pens every day and they cannot be the same pens
0:58:37as the day before means that I'm using a lot more of the stuff that I love. I'm changing
0:58:42it every day. So there's just a little space right at the very top of the page where I
0:58:46I just write down the name of the pen and that makes me happy.
0:58:50And then I was thinking, I was going back to kind of like the core of what this thing
0:58:54was for in the first place, which was to help me kind of just really think about what is
0:59:00going on in my life and focus on the impact that things are having on me and kind of looking
0:59:06at it and seeing what I can do.
0:59:08So very quickly, good and bad thing made the cut because they were kind of like the crux
0:59:14of doing this in the first place.
0:59:16down a good thing, writing down a bad thing, allowing me to reflect on those and seeing
0:59:21if and how they keep popping up. That was very useful for me.
0:59:25The same with looking forward because that has been very valuable to me in understanding
0:59:30that there's always something good on the horizon and just taking time to think about
0:59:35that every day and also with the self-imposed rule of not repeating the same thing two days
0:59:40in a row makes me value things that are coming up. So that's been very good too.
0:59:46And then the other thing that I kept came from you, which was originally in my old journal
0:59:52On My Mind, but it's changed in the new journal to Think/Feel.
0:59:58So this kind of encompasses the learn as well, because that's where I kind of put stuff like
1:00:03that.
1:00:04Like if I've learned some things that I find interesting, it will go in Think and Feel,
1:00:07because typically they're either things that I think or feel.
1:00:10That doesn't get completed every day.
1:00:12good, bad, and looking forward will get completed every day. Although sometimes there isn't
1:00:18a good thing or there isn't a bad thing. There's typically always a good thing that I can write
1:00:21down but something that I enjoy is not every day a bad thing gets written in. I think that
1:00:26that can be a nice feeling. But I try my best to fill as much as I can out of every one
1:00:30of these every day. It has also become a weekday only task for me. It is a very work focused
1:00:39journal.
1:00:40journal. That's an interesting idea. Because if I'm finding that I'm just putting work
1:00:47stuff in there, if I'm putting stuff in on the weekend, it maybe means I'm working too
1:00:51much on the weekend. So enforcing that as a practice for me, I actually found to be
1:00:57not good, so I don't do that. The other reason I bought this journal, Gray, was it gave me
1:01:05a way to start having daily active questions from Triggers. Because what this journal has
1:01:13in it is also a monthly calendar view with a little square for every day. So what I have
1:01:20is, I have my questions written down the side of the page, and then in each daily box I
1:01:25give myself a score out of five for every one of those questions, and then add them
1:01:29up to see my daily score. So it's given me a way of finding a way to put this information
1:01:37on paper which I wanted. I wanted it in the same place as my journal because they are
1:01:41a process that goes hand in hand. And I also wanted it to just be on paper. That was just
1:01:46the way that I liked it. And then when I'm finished with my journal for the day, I complete
1:01:51my active questions too. I'll give just a refresh of my seven questions. Be creative,
1:01:56advance new ideas, generate revenue, make colleagues feel valued, do good for Edina,
1:02:01engage my audience and improve my health. They are my seven questions. And I give myself
1:02:06a score out of five. There is no scale for this score. Like I haven't defined what each
1:02:12of these mean. It is more for me just how did I think I did today? And that is kind
1:02:18of like, I know that that is a very loosey goosey way of scoring myself. But that's kind
1:02:24of all this system feels to me really, it's just a way for me to reflect on how I feel
1:02:29I have done in a day to give myself some data.
1:02:32Soterios Johnson Yeah, this is the loosiest, goosiest system
1:02:35ever.
1:02:36Like the whole journaling thing, it's not scientific.
1:02:41Today I feel exactly 4.2 on making colleagues feel valued.
1:02:45Adam Backman Exactly.
1:02:46So like, you know, so it's just how I feel on each day.
1:02:50like all good data. It has given me something already. So I've been doing this for the whole
1:02:57month of April, by and large, except when I've been traveling or it's been the weekend
1:03:02or whatever. And I have noticed something very interesting, which ties in with a personal
1:03:08hypothesis. I am a person who travels a lot, and I enjoy traveling because when I travel
1:03:17I'm typically going to do something that I enjoy and I'm with people that I care about and it's always a good time.
1:03:23I spent the first four months of the year
1:03:27not traveling, having spent the previous like eight months going somewhere every month.
1:03:34What do you think was the furthest you were from your home in the last four months before travel started?
1:03:41Mmm
1:03:44Not far man like within an hour
1:03:47Right, okay
1:03:50Not far and I
1:03:53believed as
1:03:56The time was drawing to a close of being just stuck in London
1:04:02But my mood was declining because of it like I was kind of feeling maybe a little bit grounded or trapped
1:04:09you know, I wasn't liking it and
1:04:13And my scores started declining
1:04:16Leading up to going to the Atlanta Pen Show
1:04:20When I have come home, the scores are significantly different. So going from in the week prior
1:04:27scores of 15 out of 35
1:04:3115, 17, 18 to coming back and I have not scored myself lower than
1:04:3824 in the last week and a half
1:04:41Mm-hmm
1:04:42I feel better like I feel rejuvenated in general and it's coming through in the work that I'm doing
1:04:47I feel more energized again because I am entering a period of knowing that I'm getting into my normal rhythm again
1:04:54So I'm working differently
1:04:56I'm working harder and faster in the time that I'm in London and I have things to look forward to and
1:05:01new ideas and things that I'm able to put some work into because of the fact that my
1:05:07Usual rhythms are coming back
1:05:10so
1:05:11The daily active questions. I will really enforce this as a very good thing
1:05:17If you can find a system that works for you because having only done it for a month
1:05:22I can already see the benefits of having this information. It's very much like time tracking the actual daily
1:05:29Benefit of time tracking is almost zero right me spending the time to track what I'm doing every day
1:05:36Does nothing for me every day, but when I want to find out a piece of information about myself, I have this huge
1:05:43Dataset to draw from and it's taught me some very interesting things
1:05:49You know
1:05:49We spoke about this at the beginning of the year like when it comes to setting my yearly themes and thinking about the things that
1:05:55I want to do every year. I have this data set of
1:05:57by and large
1:06:00Every time I have spent any time working over
1:06:0465 days
1:06:05What did I spend my time on that is an incredible source of information?
1:06:10And it's why I continue to time track all of my work every single day
1:06:15Because maybe in December I'm gonna need it
1:06:19And that's the same for me now with the active questions
1:06:23It is a very quick thing for me to do. It takes no more than a couple of minutes
1:06:28I should also mention as well a
1:06:31A friend of mine listens to the show and reached out and they're doing it too and we are reporting
1:06:36to each other.
1:06:37Oh, so you're going all in on the triggers method.
1:06:41You have an accountability buddy.
1:06:42I have an accountability buddy, a guilt friend.
1:06:45Yeah, we didn't mention that I think in the actual discussion of the book review, the
1:06:49idea that you're supposed to have somebody check in with you on those questions.
1:06:53To make sure that you're both following them and also as a person to ask questions, which
1:06:58we have been doing to each other of why are you scoring yourself one on that every day?
1:07:02Yeah, it's like, as I think I have made very clear, I feel this is almost weird resentment
1:07:08to journaling and how effective it is at all sorts of things because it's so touchy feely
1:07:15and the accountability buddy, I do not deny that that would be even more effective but
1:07:23It's just, it's a bridge too far for me.
1:07:26It's like, I'm sorry, I can't go down that bridge.
1:07:28- I will say, when he recommended it,
1:07:30I was apprehensive, like I was willing to try it,
1:07:33but I was apprehensive.
1:07:35It is valuable.
1:07:37- Oh, I do not for a second deny that it is,
1:07:42but it's like, if I had to do the like,
1:07:47let me tell somebody else how I feel about my work today.
1:07:51I just, I don't think I could do it.
1:07:54I don't think I could do it.
1:07:55Even though I would acknowledge,
1:07:56like if I was forced to do it,
1:07:58I would almost certainly acknowledge that it's a benefit.
1:08:01But it's like the activation energy of that hill
1:08:03is just too high.
1:08:05- Yeah.
1:08:06You know, but in general--
1:08:08- But I'm happy for you, Myke.
1:08:09I'm very happy for you.
1:08:10- I mean, I was saying in general that like,
1:08:11I'm surprised that this whole process
1:08:16has embedded with me as quickly as time tracking did.
1:08:20both of these things people will spend a week doing and shy away from it, right?
1:08:27But this feels very much to me just a part of my daily life now. I have been on trips and I've been
1:08:37away from doing it for like four days, come back, straight back into it and that's when I know
1:08:41something has become a habit. Because I'm the same when I travel for work, I very rarely will
1:08:49time track because it's too difficult to work out what's work at times.
1:08:55Oh yeah, time tracking while traveling and working is a nightmare. It's very hard to
1:09:00do. It's very difficult to do because it really
1:09:03helps when I have consistency to be able to know what's what but when I don't have
1:09:07my consistency it's difficult. Yeah, like I've jury-rigged my own little
1:09:11ways of doing it but it's like, it's so fiddly. I would recommend to almost anybody
1:09:17doing time tracking like hey, when you're traveling, just put in a whole bunch of hours
1:09:21for traveling and leave it at that. Like you're fine. Right, you're fine.
1:09:25But this is like, you know, like time tracking, it's just something that I come back to
1:09:29and I actually think the reason is, is the idea of the actionable data.
1:09:35Yeah.
1:09:36That's what both of these systems share and there is a part of my brain that really
1:09:41likes to have that and that the benefit of being able to just look at a piece of paper
1:09:48and tell by numbers what my emotions are is incredibly important to me and kind of my
1:09:57well-being and my mental health. Like I have been able to look at this calendar and confirm
1:10:03something which I now won't let happen again. So if I am faced with a period of no travel
1:10:11for four months, I now need to know that there's something that I need to do during that period
1:10:17of time to make sure I don't get this like stuck in a rut feeling that I had. Right?
1:10:22So like, I don't know what that is yet, but I know that if I'm forced to go, I'm
1:10:26going to spend way more time thinking about it instead of just thinking about it like
1:10:30three or four weeks before it was over because I realized that I was like had
1:10:35these feelings that I wasn't able to fully appreciate until I got to the
1:10:40point where I was getting ready for my next trip and then being like why does
1:10:44this feel good and then like kind of like unpacking all of that to come to
1:10:49the answer of oh you were on this like decline in your output and in just kind
1:10:55of your general mood because you weren't doing something that you love that you'd
1:11:00gotten used to.
1:11:01It really is good to be able to quantify it like that and be able to look forward in advance
1:11:05and try to solve that problem ahead of time.
1:11:10That's something I should definitely do more because I think oftentimes my impetus for
1:11:15a graycation is my wife gently suggesting that maybe it's time for me to go away for
1:11:19a little bit.
1:11:20And I'm like, "Oh, okay, maybe I should do that."
1:11:24I really like what you've done with having the 30-day boxes on one side and the questions
1:11:31on the other and summing it up that way.
1:11:32I think that is a great idea and that's a great way to put all of that data in a visible
1:11:39place because that's something I've come across as a problem of ending up with all
1:11:44of these individual pages that I would then have to correlate the data across and it's
1:11:49like, "I'm never going to do that."
1:11:51Again, it's like the data duplication problem.
1:11:53I was never starting this until I could do it all on one view. That was why I was thinking
1:11:59"I really like this, but I haven't got a system for it yet." And then when I was looking around
1:12:03at new journals and saw that they had these monthly pages of a space for every day, it
1:12:09was like "Well that's it. That's what I need. I can see an entire month at a time and flick
1:12:14between pages of months and it's all just there. It doesn't need me to write out every
1:12:20day as to whether, you know, like all that kind of stuff. And I've flirted with the idea
1:12:25of maybe just having checkmarks of like ticks and crosses as to whether I feel like I have
1:12:31made an impact. That was like something that I was thinking about, like do I need the numbers?
1:12:36But now I know I need the numbers because a tick could be three, but a tick can also
1:12:44be five. And when you add those things together, it's very different in the results. You know,
1:12:50I could feel like I have adequately done something today, but if I feel like I have excelled
1:12:55at it, that is a very different mind space to be in.
1:12:59So the numbers work for me, but I also have a short list.
1:13:04I've been seeing a lot of people sharing their lists in the Cortex subreddit, which is really
1:13:09fascinating to look at.
1:13:10I've enjoyed that quite a lot.
1:13:11I've noticed those posts as well, and it's very interesting to see how other people format
1:13:17with their questions and what they're putting on those lists.
1:13:21Again, as Triggered specifies,
1:13:25the scope of human endeavor is not infinite.
1:13:29There's a lot of overlap,
1:13:29but it's still always interesting to see
1:13:32how do people phrase things or how do they order them
1:13:35or what are they putting emphasis on.
1:13:37I've enjoyed those posts quite a lot as well.
1:13:39- But I've seen people who had 20 questions
1:13:42and there's no way I would score those.
1:13:43You might just be best at ticking and crossing
1:13:46or people that have really, really specific things as well,
1:13:50which I totally understand,
1:13:51was like if something's super specific,
1:13:53you might not need to score it.
1:13:57You might just need to have said, yeah, I did it, right?
1:14:00You know, like make progress on X.
1:14:03Well, sometimes it doesn't need a score.
1:14:04Like you can just say, yeah,
1:14:06I chipped away at this a little bit.
1:14:08Like one of mine, so the new ideas, advanced new ideas,
1:14:11that was one that I was toying with for a little bit
1:14:14and I actually may change to just a binary yes or no,
1:14:17because some days all I may need to do
1:14:21is just have thought about something for a minute
1:14:24and go in and note, and that might advance the idea.
1:14:27Like it doesn't always need to be such a large thing.
1:14:31And also it's like,
1:14:32it's all related to the big mystery project, right?
1:14:37For me, a lot of it, which is not moved again.
1:14:41And I hate looking at that and being like,
1:14:46I still haven't done anything on it.
1:14:51And luckily I've got some other stuff
1:14:53that I'm actively producing right now,
1:14:56which is growing in scope and they are new ideas.
1:14:59So I'm scoring highly on that.
1:15:00But once I've got that taken care of,
1:15:03I'm gonna be going back to Mystery Project
1:15:05when it comes to question two.
1:15:07And I'm not looking forward to that again
1:15:09because I'm just hitting blocks that I'm not sure how to progress yet.
1:15:19But maybe scoring myself on that every day will actually help me make some real decisions
1:15:24on it eventually.
1:15:27Listening to you talk about it, I've really got to make some decisions about this and
1:15:32give it another real push.
1:15:35That was the whole reason why I wanted us to read the book a second time was because
1:15:38was sticking with me and I felt like this is a thing I really need to try to work into
1:15:42my life on a regular basis. And I keep pushing it off, like I have this recurring task that
1:15:47pops up every once in a while which is like, "Think about how you want to do your journal,
1:15:51buddy." And I'm like, "Uh, we can delay this for another week. I'm too busy this week to
1:15:55think about it." But it really is something that I need to give another very serious go
1:16:02and to try like you have done to successfully work it into a real routine so that it's as
1:16:12regular to me as the time tracking is.
1:16:14Yeah, I just sent you a picture of what my double page spread looks like. It's messy
1:16:21as you can imagine but it gives you an idea of what it looks like, you know? So that kind
1:16:27of layout has been really good. It's very simple, right? It helps me get it done quickly.
1:16:34And then also to be able to look at all of those scores together is the real part, the
1:16:41real great part of it all.
1:16:44I'm envious of your success with the journal.
1:16:47It's nice and colorful, isn't it? See all the different colored inks that I have?
1:16:50It is very nice and colorful. It looks like there's someone who loves pens using this
1:16:55journal. Lots of smudges that make it your own.
1:17:00That's good.
1:17:01That's lots of smudges. It's very smudgy.
1:17:04It is very smudgy.
1:17:05This is the problem with being a left-handed person who uses fountain pens. Your life is
1:17:10full of smudges.