0:00:00Hello Myke. Hi. Still traveling? Yeah I'm in Memphis, Tennessee right now.
0:00:04I've been in New York, I've been in DC, I've been in Virginia.
0:00:08And I still have New York left again. Ooh.
0:00:12You are in the midst of travel. I am on like a serious CGP Grey
0:00:16vision quest right now I think. Vision quest? I like this.
0:00:20This is how, what I imagine they all are, right? You just
0:00:24when you go on your graycations, that you're just going out to have the epiphany
0:00:28that will then carry you through the next five years, which I assume is what happens every time.
0:00:32I like this, I like this. My most recent travel, if any travel I have ever done was a vision quest,
0:00:37this most recent trip was a vision quest. So I like this, I'm taking this on board.
0:00:40But what I'm, I want to know, what I'm slightly concerned about is,
0:00:45you've been traveling all over the place. Yep, two and a half weeks.
0:00:48Two and a half weeks. What's the laundry situation like, Myke?
0:00:53Laundry has been done twice.
0:00:55Oh, okay.
0:00:56Is the situation.
0:00:58Before I divulge the circumstances under which I have received clean clothes,
0:01:03I just want to just touch upon the...
0:01:07We have more than a handful of listeners to this show.
0:01:10Do you want to say how many listeners we have to the show, Myke?
0:01:13No, we have lots.
0:01:14Lots of people.
0:01:16And we get lots of feedback for this show.
0:01:19Like, undoubtedly.
0:01:20We get lots of feedback and it's great.
0:01:21And I love that our listeners respect the methods in which the feedback should be sent,
0:01:26which is Reddit and Twitter. Like, I love that. And thank you to everybody that does that.
0:01:30You make our lives so much easier by not sending us email.
0:01:33I also feel like we have a real solutions-oriented audience.
0:01:37Oh yeah, people are very good at sending suggestions for Grey to use OneNote.
0:01:43That's solut- oh man, I loved the Reddit last time people were explaining it to you over again.
0:01:50Bravo to anybody that did that like I love you so much. That was so funny
0:01:54But I've received more feedback about doing laundry
0:01:58Than one I ever expected in my life and two more than maybe most things we've ever gotten about this show
0:02:05I have learned more about doing laundry in New York City than I think most people that live in New York
0:02:10No, like so many ways like laundromats that I can use laundromats that will do this stuff for me
0:02:17There are apparently entire services created with apps in New York to deal with the laundry situation of people in New York
0:02:25It feels like New York has a particular laundry problem that I haven't worked out yet that like there are there needs to be so many
0:02:32Solutions but there are like apps that you can use and they will come and pick it up and they'll do it and bring it back
0:02:38Oh, that's fantastic. I know
0:02:40There are also a couple of people that suggested washing my clothes in the sink
0:02:45That's never a thing. I'm gonna do no
0:02:47I just want to let everyone know this like so many things have to happen before I will wash my clothes in a sink
0:02:54box of
0:02:56detergent I really never want to do that because that just feels like I don't know like I feel like when I get to that situation
0:03:02I've exhausted all other options and
0:03:05There are so many more things I would want to try before washing them in the sink including like
0:03:12Going to a laundromat on my own and getting it all wrong. Like I would do that before I wash them in a hotel sink
0:03:16I just don't want to do that
0:03:18Yeah, I know
0:03:20That I have on occasion
0:03:23washed clothes in a hotel sink I
0:03:26Cannot remember the details
0:03:28But it was exactly this that it's like I would only do this under the most dire of circumstances
0:03:34But there is no other option left
0:03:36I feel like most times that anybody would ever do this is a time that they can't remember the details like something terrible has happened
0:03:44And now all they the only option they have left to them is
0:03:50To pour some powder into a sink and like smoosh it around with your hand because I just feel like yeah
0:03:56It's not efficient. Like it's not effective
0:03:58I can feel like that that is a not effective way of washing the clothes either
0:04:01So I feel like that I would try other things first
0:04:04Yeah, it's I'm trying to remember. What are the worst laundry situations I've ever had while traveling and it's like
0:04:09I can't remember the details of why I wash clothes in a sink
0:04:12I know I've thrown out clothes on a trip because it's just like oh, this is terrible
0:04:18Like I'm not even gonna try to wash these clothes
0:04:20But I can't remember why I ever wash it in a sink, but it's not a good solution. It's not a good solution
0:04:25Yeah, I feel like I would be more inclined to go to like a supermarket and buy really cheap replacement clothes
0:04:31first, you know? But anyway, I'm sure that there are many reasons like for example
0:04:36Let's imagine that I was going on a really important business meeting and I somehow spilt ketchup on my t-shirt
0:04:41or like on my button-down shirt and it's the only one that I have and I'm like in a pinch and I'm just gonna go
0:04:47To the sink and use some salt like, you know to get a little stain out or something
0:04:50I totally get that but the idea of me taking two weeks of clothes and throwing them in the bathtub as a way to attempt
0:04:56to wash my clothes
0:04:57That just doesn't feel like something that I want to do like it just because where are they gonna dry?
0:05:02Like I don't have any way of doing this
0:05:05Like I totally get that someone might do it for one item of clothing one time because of a disaster
0:05:10But I was talking like I'm talking about all of the clothes that I have for like ten days
0:05:15Turning them over and I feel like washing them in the sink is not the way to do that. It doesn't scale so
0:05:22Okay, look against all advice that I have received
0:05:27Except from you.
0:05:29All of the advice...
0:05:30I was gonna say, I think except from me.
0:05:32All of the advice that I received, people told me to use any other solution than getting my clothes washed and laundered by the hotel.
0:05:43Yeah, I do want to specify that. I think I was clear in the last episode that getting it washed by the hotel is the laziest option.
0:05:51This is why it is also my first choice, is laziness.
0:05:56Okay, and this is why I did it because this so I I in New York City, I have my clothes
0:06:02laundered by the hotel. I did that. The reason that I did this is like is there's there's
0:06:08multiple little reasons that all that are up to just laziness. It was the middle of
0:06:12the week, I realized that I my planning had not been good and I ran out of clothes quicker
0:06:17than I expected. Yep. So it was like the middle of the week that I was in New York had already
0:06:20been in America for nearly 10 days at this point. I ran out of clothes faster than expected.
0:06:26because also the weather wasn't as I planned it for so I needed to have my
0:06:31clothes washed. I was heading out to a meeting and it would have just been so
0:06:37much easier for me to have the clothes completed by the time that I returned in
0:06:42the evening. Rather than having to somehow find a space in either that day
0:06:46or the next day and then like needing to wear dirty clothes and it just was like
0:06:50I'm just going to get it done by the hotel.
0:06:53This was a mistake.
0:06:54This was a big mistake.
0:06:57Did they not clean your clothes?
0:06:58They cleaned them great.
0:06:59Uh, I put a picture in our show notes, which I will also include for our
0:07:04listeners of how the clothes were returned for me.
0:07:06Oh yes.
0:07:07Look at that.
0:07:08Yeah.
0:07:08You got, you get the nice little wrapped box with blue ribbon on them, which was
0:07:11very nice.
0:07:12You know why you get your clothes in a little box with ribbons around it?
0:07:16Because of how much they charge you great.
0:07:18So it feels fancy.
0:07:21And you know what?
0:07:22This is a trick that totally works on me
0:07:23every time I have it done in a hotel.
0:07:25My hotel, like when the laundry comes back
0:07:28in the little box with some tissue paper around it,
0:07:31I think, ooh, look at this.
0:07:32- I got to feel like a Mr. Fancy Pants when I came back.
0:07:35- Exactly.
0:07:35- That was until I take the first box off the top
0:07:39and I am left with the bill.
0:07:41So leading up to this point, a couple of things occurred.
0:07:46So you have to complete the the order yourself.
0:07:49You top up all the things that you're giving to them, give them a total.
0:07:52And then you add it all up. Right.
0:07:54How many socks, how many shirts?
0:07:55Yeah. One problem that I had is there was no T-shirts entry on this form.
0:08:00So I went with undershirts
0:08:04as a thing, because I figured that's the closest to a T-shirt.
0:08:08Like this isn't a button down shirt.
0:08:10You don't need to be careful with it.
0:08:11You don't need to fold it in any specific way.
0:08:13So I figured I'll go with undershirts.
0:08:16the hotel decided that they would class them as t-shirts and then create a price entry
0:08:21which is about twice the amount. So when I was filling out the form it was already expensive
0:08:30but when it came back it was far too expensive and of course these forms say whatever we
0:08:37We say, you pay, effectively.
0:08:40So I am embarrassed, very embarrassed by the amount of money that I had to spend getting
0:08:50my laundry done.
0:08:51I have learned a very valuable life lesson and I also think that the majority of my clothes
0:08:59were ever so slightly smaller than when they were sent off and of course the form also
0:09:05says, "Yolo, that might happen, right?" Like, might shrink a little bit. So...
0:09:11Right, they bear no responsibility for the laundry that they are cleaning.
0:09:14So I will stand with my arms extended, like out to my sides to our listeners and say,
0:09:22"You were right, and I was wrong, and I am stupid for doing this." Because I spent
0:09:30an embarrassing amount of money to have my clothes slightly shrunk.
0:09:35That's what I did and I will never do this again.
0:09:38I haven't worked out what I'm going to do.
0:09:41Well, OK, I will never do this again for the amount of clothes that I did it for.
0:09:46Hmm. Right. OK.
0:09:49So if I have like a shirt that needs to be ironed and pressed and all that,
0:09:54I may pay $10 to get that done.
0:09:56But like I had a week's worth of clothes cleaned.
0:09:59I'm never going to do that again by the hotel unless like if I need to do it.
0:10:05So in my hotel's time going to next, I will check the prices.
0:10:08And if it's very cheap for some silly reason, it's not going to be.
0:10:12But it's never going to be.
0:10:13It's never it's never going to be.
0:10:15After this, I started looking into a little bit more like why is it the price that it is?
0:10:19And it turns out because business people get this stuff done
0:10:23and just charge it to their company and then they're good to go.
0:10:26Right. Because it's all expenses based.
0:10:28so nobody cares how much it costs.
0:10:30Is Relay going to be covering the cost of your laundry, Myke?
0:10:33There is no way that I would present this bill to my company purely because it would
0:10:38be laughed at and I would never receive the money.
0:10:45I don't know, Myke. I just... This is the lazy option. The lazy option, as is so always
0:10:51the case, the expensive option.
0:10:54I expected that.
0:10:55Right? I expected it to be more expensive.
0:10:59- So now, I guess what I need to know here, Myke,
0:11:02is what's the number?
0:11:04Because I feel like you're squirmy and evasive
0:11:08over the microphone.
0:11:09- I can't do it, Gray.
0:11:10I cannot tell the world the amount of money this cost me.
0:11:15I can't do it.
0:11:15- You have a real emotional attachment
0:11:19to the cost of your laundry here, Myke.
0:11:20- It's the embarrassment of it.
0:11:22It's not the--
0:11:23but I feel like you need to cleanse your soul of this number.
0:11:27I'll tell you. So I want to just tell you, okay, I had maybe seven t-shirts, a pair of shorts,
0:11:34maybe six or seven pairs of undershorts as they were named, which I found funny,
0:11:38and like a handful of socks and one button-down shirt. That was kind of the
0:11:42total amount of items that I had cleaned.
0:11:45Okay.
0:11:46All right, are you ready?
0:11:47I'm ready.
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0:13:32Casper for their support of this show. Yeah, I don't know. It's getting your laundry done
0:13:36in New York. I don't think that seems too crazy. I can't tell people the amount of money.
0:13:43Look, Myke, if you need to, you can bleep that out, right?
0:13:46But you also have the problem that, what I didn't specify last time when I was giving you the advice about do the laundry at the hotel,
0:13:53I'm used to really big numbers here because I'm always the guy doing the rush job with the laundry.
0:13:59Because when I'm traveling, I feel like this, again, this for me is one of these cases where
0:14:03when I am traveling, especially in the last couple of years, it is largely for business or for a particular purpose.
0:14:10and I feel like my time is valuable in a place and also I just can't deal with the details of anything
0:14:16and so I am often in the situation where I have totally forgotten about laundry until the last possible second
0:14:22and then not only am I filling out their ridiculously mafioso monopoly expensive form about how much the laundry is going to cost
0:14:30I also tick the box which says "I need it as soon as you can"
0:14:35Which as far as I can tell just gives them a license to write whatever number they can in the in the little laundry
0:14:41Okay, so I really wish I would have been given this little piece of information
0:14:44Because the thing is I agree with everything you say I think that
0:14:49Part of the reason we're able to have these conversations is I agree with that logic, right?
0:14:54Like I had stuff to do I didn't have the time which is why I got it done in the first place
0:14:58But I just don't think that I was mentally prepared for the amount of money. This is gonna cost me
0:15:03me. If I have bleeped the amount of money out, dear listener, just understand that I
0:15:13just don't want you to think bad of me, right? Understand that I was a man caught out by
0:15:19a system in which he could not control and he did something silly and he's never going
0:15:26to do it again and we can all make mistakes because now I have done more washing and I
0:15:31I have completed that washing in the home of my co-founder and I have used really weird
0:15:36machines that American people have.
0:15:40For example, we were talking about doing, Stephen was helping me with his washing machine
0:15:45and I was like, yeah, I usually set it to 30 degrees.
0:15:47He's like, I can't, I have no idea.
0:15:49I can't help you.
0:15:50This machine doesn't go by temperature.
0:15:54And like just things like how to, when I was loading the washing machine, water was already
0:15:58in the machine.
0:15:59What is this voodoo?
0:16:00I don't understand. Like, I put with my washing machine, everything goes in, I close the door,
0:16:07I choose the temperature, and I press go, and then it starts. I was adding laundry to
0:16:11a machine that was already in motion.
0:16:13Oh yeah, okay. I got, yeah, it's one of those top loading agitators. Yeah, I know that.
0:16:19This is what I can't understand. Like, I just, I don't, this is what I knew was going to
0:16:23happen to me if I tried to do it on my own, that I would be faced with by one of these
0:16:27machines that I don't understand how to use.
0:16:29No, it's great. It's like a cement mixer. You can just keep throwing more stuff in as
0:16:33the laundry machine goes. It's fantastic.
0:16:36Do you understand, like I'm sure you have used a European style machine, or like machines
0:16:42I'm sure they exist in America.
0:16:44I have one not five feet away from where I'm recording this podcast.
0:16:48But do you see why I've been apprehensive about this? Because it's effectively using
0:16:53a machine type that I've never used before for the only clothes that I own here, right?
0:16:59Like I'm putting everything that I can wear into a machine I don't understand.
0:17:03You seem to have some psychological issues around laundry. While I'm happy to make fun
0:17:07of you publicly and privately for these laundry issues that you seem to have, I also again
0:17:14totally get it that this is the kind of thing that when you're traveling is more anxiety
0:17:18inducing than it would be otherwise. It's not something that you really want to deal
0:17:22with because you have other things that you're doing and you just like little things that
0:17:28are different can be surprisingly derailing when you're traveling so I will make fun of
0:17:33you but I am also underneath I am sympathetic.
0:17:36Because it's like I'm not a Luddite. I can work these things out but it is the idea of
0:17:42like I just want it to be done and I don't want anything to go wrong right this is the
0:17:49So I don't know how I'm going to wash my clothes
0:17:52for the rest of my trip when I'm back in New York,
0:17:55but I know I'm not using the hotel.
0:17:57Next up, I'm gonna look into these services
0:18:00that will apparently come and collect my clothes.
0:18:02'Cause people tell me that this stuff is not as expensive
0:18:05as it might seem to be.
0:18:06So what I know is it's not gonna be more expensive
0:18:09than getting it done in the hotel.
0:18:11- Well, I mean, like an app sounds fantastic for laundry.
0:18:14And that also seems the case of,
0:18:17There is actual competition there which could drive down the prices
0:18:21And there's also economies of scale that a hotel doesn't have in the same way for doing the laundry
0:18:25So this this this seems great
0:18:28I remember vaguely wondering if there were
0:18:30apps that could do your laundry for you and it sounds like they exist in New York at the very least and
0:18:35I will I will probably look after this podcast to see if they exist in London. I think they do actually
0:18:40Amazing so
0:18:43Part of all of this why the laundry is such a big thing
0:18:46is, it's like disruption to my life whilst I am in a situation where I'm in a place for
0:18:55work, you know? What we have lovingly referred to as "grecations". Like I'm here in different
0:19:00places and I have my regular work commitments to keep up with plus additional things that
0:19:06I'm doing. I've decided that I would like to refer to this in my parlance as a "hurly
0:19:11You have your gradations and I have my early days. That's how they work.
0:19:17And so that's what I have been on over the last couple of weeks and this is still going to continue.
0:19:21But during these times, like you, I don't have my usual things around me.
0:19:27So when I have to deal with what would be a chore, like my regular chores,
0:19:33I want it to be easy because I don't have my way of doing it.
0:19:38like my muscle memory, just the things I don't have to think about. I don't want them to
0:19:43be things I now have to think about because I'm already adding additional work into my
0:19:48life by being here. It's one of the reasons I'm here. I don't want to then have to add
0:19:53this whole other layer of like relearning how to do things that I already know how to
0:19:59do. Right?
0:20:00B: Yeah, well, when you're traveling, you have less ability to deal with disruption,
0:20:05if you change countries. Like I was traveling in Germany a while ago and a couple things
0:20:11came up that I need to do some essentially some errand type things and realize immediately
0:20:16I have no idea what stores to go to to accomplish these errands, right? Whereas in London it'd
0:20:21be like, "Oh, I just need to pop into a Boots, right? I can just do this or I'll go to a Walgreens
0:20:26in America," right?
0:20:27I love that you use Boots because to an American this is like it's like the most English sounding
0:20:31store that our equivalent of Walmart is called Boots. That's what it's called. We have
0:20:38Boots.
0:20:39Yeah, I'd say that it's a Walgreens equivalent.
0:20:42Okay. Yeah, no, Wal-Mart. I get those confused because they have the exact same start to
0:20:46their name. It's Walgreens. Like, it's like a big chemist that also does some other
0:20:50stuff.
0:20:51Yeah, exactly. It's the miscellaneous store that has a whole bunch of stuff. And yeah,
0:20:56so I remember I was just in Germany, like, I have no idea where to go for a bunch of
0:21:01these tiny items that I know would be all together out of boots but now this is turning
0:21:06into a big hassle. I was like, "How do I search on maps for where to buy Q-tips? I don't understand
0:21:12how do I find this piece of information?"
0:21:14I cannot search for the contents of a store in Google Maps.
0:21:21That is what I want. I need scotch tape. Where do I acquire this item? I have no idea.
0:21:28These are the types of things I just don't want to do.
0:21:31Plus it kind of like just makes things more difficult.
0:21:34And I have had something happen to me, Gray, which has ruined all of my systems and I don't
0:21:40know what to do.
0:21:42I have lost two button-down shirts somehow on this trip.
0:21:47Now this is not the end of the world.
0:21:51When I go back to New York, I'm going to go to a store and I'm going to buy myself a new
0:21:54shirt.
0:21:55problem is I didn't know I had lost them. I'm supposed to have a system that prevents this.
0:22:01The system has failed. What do you count your shirts out and in of your suitcase every time?
0:22:08I have a packing system, right? Like I have a system of packing and when I leave a hotel
0:22:13a system of checking. And one of those has failed me to the point where I have lost two-thirds of
0:22:20of the shirts that I brought with me.
0:22:22And I don't know how this happened
0:22:25because I have a memory
0:22:27of not removing them from my suitcase.
0:22:30So where are they?
0:22:32Right, like I have been honestly losing my mind
0:22:35about this over the last couple of days
0:22:36because I cannot work out where they are.
0:22:40Plus I have this whole conspiracy theory thing
0:22:42going on as well.
0:22:43- Oh, okay, okay.
0:22:45Well, I mean, before--
0:22:46(laughing)
0:22:47Like before we get to your conspiracy theory,
0:22:50I think it is good advice for anybody traveling that you just assume that as you move around
0:22:59you leave behind you a detritus of the objects that you have brought with you.
0:23:04And it's impossible to track them perfectly.
0:23:06Like you always leave stuff behind.
0:23:09Yeah, okay.
0:23:10It just happens.
0:23:11I know this is the case but I—
0:23:12There's like shirts—
0:23:13The reason this is concerning for me—
0:23:15Pants.
0:23:16Yeah.
0:23:17People.
0:23:18Sometimes you leave them behind.
0:23:19that that's not a thing. The reason this is concerning for me is because the
0:23:24system in which I use to ensure that I have packed my clothing is the same
0:23:29system in which I use to ensure that I've packed everything. And on this trip
0:23:33I have a lot of relatively expensive audio equipment that is not easy to
0:23:38replace in a flash. I may not realize I have lost something in this whole setup
0:23:44up until it is too late and I am about to record a show. So like this is my concern,
0:23:51right? It's not that I have lost the shirts because shirts are replaceable easily and also I can just
0:23:57wear something else, right? Like I'm fine but it is the concern that I have now that my system and
0:24:03my mental models of making sure I have packed everything have failed me and that could result
0:24:08in the losing of something more important. When I am only halfway through this and I have lost a
0:24:13significant amount of things already. What's your plan of action?
0:24:18Something else may be lost, Gray, and I just don't know what it is yet!
0:24:21I mean you'll find out in an inconvenient moment, but what is your,
0:24:24what's your plan of action here, Myke? I don't have one. Okay. Did your system
0:24:29involve touching each of the shirts and counting them as you packed and unpacked
0:24:34them? Well no, because I didn't have a number associated to these things, so
0:24:38maybe now I need to do that, but it's already too late now, right? Because I can
0:24:42count the number of things that I have but it doesn't mean I have everything.
0:24:45This is the problem. I can only fix this for the next time I leave home. For where
0:24:51I am now, I can count everything that I have and it will help me for the rest of
0:24:54the trip, but I can't count what's already lost and who knows what's lost.
0:24:58It could be everything.
0:25:00I think it's very unlikely that it's everything, Myke. I think you have a suitcase full of things.
0:25:04I live with Shoding a suitcase right now.
0:25:06I feel like you have been traveling too long. This is a very long trip for you
0:25:12and you are spiraling out of control. That's what this is. I feel like I'm listening to a man on the
0:25:22edge and it's like, "Oh poor Myke, he was not meant to travel by himself for this long."
0:25:26I don't know if I was supposed to. I don't know how you felt the first time you did this,
0:25:33but I have ramped up significantly. The most I've ever been away is like a week at a time,
0:25:38and I went for five. I feel like I maybe went...
0:25:42I hurtled towards the sun, Gray, and I think I got burnt a little bit along the way.
0:25:47I can't say that I'm too surprised, because...
0:25:52We have had some conversations about our various, like, relations with people, like, and socializing and all the rest of this, and...
0:26:01You have always said things that make me think, like, maybe you shouldn't be alone for a really long time.
0:26:07time you're like oh you've asked me oh don't get lonely so I haven't been
0:26:11spending the amount of time alone you spend we'll talk about that in a bit but
0:26:15like the way that I have structured these trips I'm not alone so much mm-hmm
0:26:18it's just away from my usual norms I think is the problem for me and I've
0:26:24ever done it five weeks is too much you're a creature of habit then perhaps
0:26:29yeah maybe and you're all frazzled at the edges you've got your first sticking
0:26:34up in funny directions like you're all ungroomed and missing two shirts.
0:26:38I was fine until the shirts. The shirts were what pushed me over the edge because now it's
0:26:43like the things that I think are written down and set in stone they're failing me now and
0:26:48so now I don't know what to do.
0:26:50I'm just worried that you're gonna like in another week you're gonna be like an obsessive
0:26:55compulsive vampire constantly counting and recounting all of the things in your suitcase
0:27:00but I don't know what to tell you man because you've got another two weeks to go.
0:27:03I enjoyed your choice of vampire. That was good. It's foreshadowing.
0:27:08It is foreshadowing, Myke.
0:27:09Foreshadowing.
0:27:10Yeah.
0:27:11Okay, so I have one week and two days until it all gets better again, and then I have
0:27:16another week. Because in one week and two days, Idina is coming to join me, and then
0:27:20she can sort me out, right?
0:27:22Okay.
0:27:23I can be fixed by this point. She's just, she's already saying to me that, like, as
0:27:29can imagine, my reaction to the shirts, I am overreacting. I am very aware of the fact
0:27:34that I am overreacting, but there is nothing I can do about it now. I am in the zone. I
0:27:40know that losing a shirt shouldn't spiral you out of control, but there's nothing I
0:27:44can do about this.
0:27:46It is true that telling someone they are overreacting is exactly 0% useful.
0:27:52Because I know I am already.
0:27:53Exactly. The people who are overreacting, they often know that's not the problem. It's
0:27:58It's not a knowledge problem, right?
0:28:00It's a something else problem.
0:28:02You don't even know about my conspiracy theory yet.
0:28:05Well yeah, I was gonna circle back to this in a mere moment.
0:28:09I wasn't gonna let that casual comment go unmined for podcast content of how is Myke
0:28:17losing his mind while traveling for an entire two weeks.
0:28:21I shouldn't be talking to you about all of this.
0:28:24This should have stayed in.
0:28:25Oh no.
0:28:26Do you want to know? Do you want me to tell you what happened?
0:28:30You have to tell me what this conspiracy thing is.
0:28:32I arrived in New York City. It's just us, Myke.
0:28:35I arrived in New York City at Penn Station and I had to get to Times Square.
0:28:43I arrived in New York City to atrocious rain. Like, it was really badly raining.
0:28:51I have a really heavy suitcase.
0:28:53I made my way to the subway.
0:28:56My first, I think it's the first time
0:28:59I've ever rode the subway on my own.
0:29:00And that's like a whole other thing
0:29:01about how confusing I find the New York subway
0:29:04compared to the London tube.
0:29:05- I will give you that one.
0:29:06Even as someone who had experience with the New York subway
0:29:10as a much younger self,
0:29:12it is a much less user-friendly situation
0:29:17than the London Underground.
0:29:18I won't necessarily say more difficult,
0:29:20I'll just say less user-friendly, I think is the way I would put it.
0:29:23I have become more adept at navigating it now, but like initially when I just thought
0:29:28that I was gonna be able to just go, like just go, that's not the case.
0:29:33You can't just go.
0:29:34No, no, no.
0:29:35You can't just go, Myke.
0:29:36It's like, are you going uptown or downtown?
0:29:37You have to know.
0:29:39If you don't know, you are screwed.
0:29:42So I made my way and I did what I had to do and I got to the hotel. I arrive at the hotel,
0:29:52have him walk through the rain. I'm dripping right onto the floor of the hotel. I met with
0:29:58the check-in guy and he has a sense of humor. He's a funny guy and he's checking me in and
0:30:08He's like, you know, can I have your ID and your card?
0:30:11I'm like, sure, I'll give him my ID,
0:30:12I'll give him my credit card so he can,
0:30:14they can do whatever it is they need to do with all that stuff.
0:30:16I don't fully understand why I have to give anybody my ID at a hotel,
0:30:19but like this is a thing you have to do in America.
0:30:21Yeah, I don't get that either.
0:30:22I don't know why, like, just let me pay for, I paid you for the room, like I don't, anyway.
0:30:28Yeah, it seems very strange, like, do I need to give my ID at a restaurant?
0:30:32Like, why, I don't understand why here I need my ID.
0:30:36but they do, so they take the ID.
0:30:38And so he's checking me in and he just says,
0:30:40"What is your email address?"
0:30:41And I said, "Why do you need my email address?"
0:30:46And he's just like, "Oh, we put it into the system."
0:30:49I was like, "No."
0:30:49Then he said, "What if you lose something
0:30:55and we need to contact you?"
0:30:56- Oh, I see where this is going, okay.
0:30:57Yeah, I can see where the crazy begins, okay, yep.
0:31:00- And I said to him, "It's okay.
0:31:03I don't, I don't, I will, you know, you can contact me in other ways. Like, I don't want
0:31:08to give you my email address." And he's like, "Okay." And he's making these jokes.
0:31:11So there is a part of me that is like, "Did he steal my shirts?"
0:31:14Because he, it was, he was so insistent on if I lose something,
0:31:24right? And because he made a joke about it. He's like, "Oh, well, it'll be lost then."
0:31:31And the thing is, Greg, here's the thing.
0:31:34When I was in DC, I didn't unpack.
0:31:38So I know I didn't take the shirts out when I was in DC,
0:31:40because I was only there for a couple of days.
0:31:42When I was in New York, I was there for a week,
0:31:44and I did unpack.
0:31:45- It's certainly not that unpacking dramatically
0:31:48increases the likelihood of losing something.
0:31:50- But I know, but this is the thing, right?
0:31:52So like, I am at an impasse of either
0:31:55my system of checking the room is bad,
0:31:58or the check-in assistant stole two shirts from me.
0:32:02And right now, they are both upsetting in their own way.
0:32:07- They're both upsetting, but like all good conspiracy theories,
0:32:10you clearly want to believe that the shirts were stolen versus your system has failed you.
0:32:17- It is better for me to feel that the man stole from me.
0:32:21- That's basically what conspiracy theories are, right?
0:32:23They are attractive sets of ideas that you kind of want to be true, like, "Ooh!"
0:32:28- Ooh, this would be much better than my system failing.
0:32:32- I would far prefer it.
0:32:34- As a slight side tangent at the hotels
0:32:36when they ask for all your information,
0:32:38this is why I have learned to just
0:32:41give them false information, right?
0:32:42Because I used to do the like,
0:32:43why do you need my phone number?
0:32:45Why do you need my email address thing?
0:32:46Why do you need my home address?
0:32:49Like any of these information that these places ask,
0:32:51now I just make stuff up.
0:32:52I just put down fake numbers.
0:32:53It's like, whatever.
0:32:55Never has caused a problem and it just gets us
0:32:58past this "you want to build your email list" like hotel I will never visit again, that's what's occurring here.
0:33:04So yeah, I just give them information that's not true.
0:33:07[sigh]
0:33:09That's fine. Just a fake email address, Myke. That's what you need.
0:33:12Yeah, but then they would email me if I lost the things and it would never come back to me, would it?
0:33:16They might at least call.
0:33:18Look, if there's something important at the hotel, they can get in touch with you.
0:33:22When I check into a hotel, I give them all the fake information for like, "Oh, what's your email address?
0:33:27What's your phone number? Right?
0:33:28Because if they need to get in touch they can do it.
0:33:30And I also, when I go into the room, there are several things that I do to get a hotel room ready for me.
0:33:36But one of those things includes unplugging the phone in the wall.
0:33:39Because I'd be like, "I don't want you to call me."
0:33:41Randomly, with something I probably don't really care about.
0:33:44Do you check for bugs? Check the lamps and stuff?
0:33:47No, I don't check the lamps for bugs.
0:33:49You do a sweep?
0:33:51No, I don't do a sweep.
0:33:53That would be crazy.
0:33:54I have to get it ready for me like nothing enters I go in with a hood and then I unplug
0:33:59I unplug the phone I check the lamp for bugs. No, that's crazy Myke. Of course. Yeah
0:34:04Crazy crazy crazy. Yeah pro tip though for anybody who does want to unplug the phones that the the hotel desk doesn't bother you with
0:34:12their dumb phone calls
0:34:14If it is a cordless phone make sure to take the battery out of the phone as well because it will start beeping in
0:34:19in about 24 hours when the battery begins to run down.
0:34:22It'll go beep beep to let you know,
0:34:23"Ooh, need to charge me."
0:34:24So pull that battery out the back of the phone,
0:34:27unplug the phone from the wall,
0:34:29and you have a nice quiet hotel room.
0:34:31No one will bother you.
0:34:32And if it's really important,
0:34:33they'll catch you when you're walking past the front desk.
0:34:35That has always been my experience.
0:34:36- Okay.
0:34:37Maybe what I need to do is set up an email address
0:34:40that I never check, but it's there.
0:34:43So if I have lost something,
0:34:45I can just go log in for that email account
0:34:47and check that address.
0:34:48but it's full of emails from the Gap and this hotel chain.
0:34:51There you go, life hack.
0:34:53So we're all about in the show.
0:34:55- Yeah, great.
0:34:55Fantastic. - Yeah, I'm in a,
0:34:57just a real pickle.
0:34:58I'm in a, I called the hotel.
0:34:59They said they didn't find anything.
0:35:01I don't believe them.
0:35:03And this is where I am in my life, Gray.
0:35:05It's not good.
0:35:06It's not good.
0:35:07- I don't wanna put an idea in your mind,
0:35:08but I'm pretty sure that when you called,
0:35:10the guy who answered was wearing your shirt at the time.
0:35:13- Oh, they were, I know it.
0:35:14They were nice shirts too.
0:35:17Yeah, let it go, Myke.
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0:37:16Alright Myke, tell me now.
0:37:19I know we've had a fascinating discussion about your slowly unravelling mental state.
0:37:24But what are you doing in America right now?
0:37:28What are you there for?
0:37:30I want to know.
0:37:31Tell me.
0:37:32So many things, Gray.
0:37:33So I have attended a pen show.
0:37:36Of course.
0:37:37And you know what a pen show is by now, right?
0:37:39Like you know.
0:37:40Yeah, it's a show where you can buy pens.
0:37:43Yes, it's like a big place where you can go and you can buy pens.
0:37:45And I have a show all about pens called The Pen Addict and we do a Kickstarter every year
0:37:50and for us to go to different shows and we go and we record live shows there.
0:37:54Actually, we're doing three this year, which is wild.
0:37:57So I was at the DC Pen Show.
0:37:59Wait, are you doing three live pen shows?
0:38:01Is that what you're saying?
0:38:02Three live episodes of The Pen Addict because of the Kickstarter campaign.
0:38:07It's a North American tour. We're going to be in Chicago in October.
0:38:10That's amazing. That's fantastic.
0:38:13I live a really weird life. It's kind of beautiful.
0:38:16So I was in DC for the pen show, then I went to New York,
0:38:20and that was just purely like I'm waiting.
0:38:23It was like a holding pattern because I'm in Memphis right now,
0:38:26which is where Steven, my co-founder, lives, and we get together every year
0:38:30because it's Real AFM's birthday in August.
0:38:33We're actually going to talk a little bit about that at the end of the show.
0:38:36So, but it's good for me and him to get together every year because we get to work in the same
0:38:42place which is just nice, but we also get to like think about our company, you know,
0:38:47and talk through stuff like that together which is really useful.
0:38:50And we kind of set some goals and set some objectives and some things we'd like to achieve
0:38:55in the next year.
0:38:56So that's always a good thing to do.
0:38:58So I've been here for that and I leave Memphis in a couple of days.
0:39:03But before you zoom on though, so you two are hanging out as co-founders of Relay together.
0:39:11How long are you guys spending together?
0:39:12A week.
0:39:13That's good.
0:39:14Like that's a good amount of time so that you're around but it doesn't feel like you
0:39:18have to rush everything together.
0:39:21And I would suspect that that's also the, like that's a good amount of time that you
0:39:25can rehash or like revisit thoughts a few times and bounce them off of each other.
0:39:32Yeah.
0:39:33Like, I think it's really interesting that you guys do this.
0:39:39I know people who are essentially like remote co-founders of various things, but I know
0:39:46very very few people who do the "we're going to be intentionally together as co-founders
0:39:52on a regular basis" thing.
0:39:55I think that's such a great idea because...
0:39:58It's so important.
0:39:59Yeah, it really, really is.
0:40:02It really matters to be in person to discuss things like this, and especially when you
0:40:08own a company together.
0:40:09Yeah, like it's so easy for us to work remotely, right?
0:40:12Like it works perfectly, like our business is structured and set up to actually be more
0:40:17effective because it's remote.
0:40:19But for us not to get together with the explicit idea of talking about the company and thinking
0:40:25about it and being like that's that seems like a really just obvious thing and like to not do that
0:40:32seems like it would be a real mistake like we see each other a lot every year but it's in other
0:40:38circumstances there is another thing happening so an idea may pop up or whatever but in this time
0:40:43like i'm here i'm staying in steven's house with his family we're spending like we're the best of
0:40:49friends, right? So like it's all so nice to do that. But whilst we're also at the zoo together,
0:40:55I can mention a thing and it's like, "Oh yeah, that's a really good idea. We'll talk about that."
0:41:00And then we can come back to it later on. Because ideas, you know, if you work on anything,
0:41:06no matter whether it's just your job or a side project or whatever, ideas, they happen all the
0:41:13time of a thing. You're like, "Oh, I've cracked it." Or, "Oh, I've had this great idea." And being
0:41:18in the same physical location as the person that should hear those ideas is very valuable.
0:41:24Very valuable.
0:41:25No, I think it's great that you do it and I just wanted to focus on it for a moment because I feel
0:41:31like, you know, when you and I meet up for lunch on occasion, you will often make reference to like,
0:41:38"Oh, I was thinking about this thing." Like when we were together as co-founders in Memphis,
0:41:44like you and Steven were and it's it's it's clearly a
0:41:48time that is
0:41:51that has like a
0:41:53Value that is much greater than just the the raw days that you're together. Yeah, and I think like it is
0:42:00Working remotely. It is fantastic for the day today
0:42:05but the impression that I get is is like a lot of the a
0:42:10Lot of the sort of big-picture vision for what you want for relay and for your company comes out of this time
0:42:16Oh, yeah. Oh, it really does it really really does
0:42:19I mean it also we we launched a redesign of our website and that was really
0:42:24Useful for us to be in the same place when we did that
0:42:26Yes, the new the new relay website. It looks gorgeous. Yeah, it's really good-looking. It's very good-looking. They had nothing to do with me
0:42:35Did you not hand draw all of the pages for the website?
0:42:40No.
0:42:41Nope.
0:42:42You didn't do that?
0:42:43None of it was my idea, but I love it.
0:42:46It was fantastic.
0:42:48It was really well done, and I think it represents our company better than the previous website
0:42:54did.
0:42:55I think it looks really great, and it was really fun and scary to all be in the same
0:43:00place whilst that was happening, and then like, putting out all the fires.
0:43:04It was good.
0:43:05But that was like doing that in the same place is way better than it happening which would
0:43:09have happened when I was sleeping in London is what it would have happened.
0:43:13And then as well as that like I've like doing the show like I'm recording in Steven's studio
0:43:17for a few days like I'm doing all of my regular work and we're together and it's been very
0:43:21valuable like we do it every year and we'll continue to like it's a it makes so much sense.
0:43:27It makes so much sense.
0:43:28So you're in Steven's studio right now.
0:43:30Are you surrounded by Max of all kinds decades ago?
0:43:34shelving full of old computers like just this big shelving unit with lots and
0:43:42lots of things on it like I can look at old iPod touches and old Macintoshes and
0:43:47they're everywhere. I can't imagine that any listeners are unaware but in case
0:43:53they aren't like Stephen Hackett your co-founder must have one of the largest
0:43:56private collections of Apple equipment in the world like that has to be true. I
0:44:03I think in the condition that he has them, yes.
0:44:06I mean, to the point that he has literally donated
0:44:09large sections of his collections to museums
0:44:13like the Henry Ford Museum.
0:44:15- So the Henry Ford Museum has one of those little plaques
0:44:17that says, "Oh, this historical Mac was donated
0:44:21by Stephen Hackett."
0:44:23Like you see those plaques in museums when like--
0:44:25- I think it will do eventually.
0:44:26- Yeah.
0:44:27- I think that they're still preparing them
0:44:28and it was every color of the iMac G3.
0:44:32Stephen had an incredible project where he put them all together and then at the end of it donated them to the Henry Ford Museum.
0:44:39So yeah, he has quite a collection.
0:44:42It is really crazy. Listeners, if you haven't seen it, we'll put it in the show notes, but Stephen Hackett's YouTube channel
0:44:50has a bunch of videos where he's showing off various portions of his collection and it is
0:44:56It is impressive to see and it must have been...
0:44:59I can't imagine how much effort had to go into getting all of the different pieces that he has.
0:45:05But because he has so many, he can do very fun videos sometimes.
0:45:09Like, when Apple released that ridiculous book of all the things they made,
0:45:13I love that he made a video of the physical objects with the pages in the book.
0:45:18But it's like, how many people in the world could match them up?
0:45:21No one can do that, right? Who has the stuff?
0:45:24what he does, like including a selection of iPod socks. Like he has all of that. Yeah,
0:45:31this is a very interesting setting to record shows in.
0:45:34Yeah, so I just wanted to visualize where you are. So you're surrounded by all the Macs.
0:45:40That's where you are at this moment.
0:45:41I'm in a room in Memphis, Tennessee surrounded by computers that are mostly older than me.
0:45:49not mostly. I'm older than I think I am. Some are older than me, not all. But as well as
0:45:56that, right, so when I was in New York I was really kind of following the graycation model.
0:46:01Like I was doing all of my regular work just in another location and it was great because
0:46:09I felt I had this really strange feeling of like I live in New York now. Like a couple
0:46:15the days in it was just this really weird feeling of I have taken my life and put it here.
0:46:22Mm-hmm. Plus New York is a great place to do this type of thing.
0:46:27I know I mentioned it before but I'm gonna mention again that I really do think like
0:46:31obviously Gray Industries does not have a co-founder right so I don't I don't go someplace
0:46:36with a non-existent co-founder but I really do I do think that a change of location is an important
0:46:44part of doing a trip like this, where you feel like you're going to have a dedicated
0:46:49work time. Like I really think that the location change matters.
0:46:54And that's why I used to just go to different hotels in the same city.
0:46:58And now sometimes I go to Amsterdam or I go to other locations if I can, if I can make it happen.
0:47:03And that thing that you've touched on, that this sort of almost tricking your brain
0:47:09into creating this illusion like you just exist in this other place. I really think that it is important that that feeling of
0:47:17existing somewhere else that I think doing your regular work really helps bring about
0:47:22it kind of opens you up to thinking about
0:47:25things in a little bit of a in a little bit of a different way. Like it's interesting to hear that you had that
0:47:31that feeling of like oh I
0:47:33exist in New York now and that was definitely a thing like over the summer doing a whole bunch of traveling like I had that
0:47:39a bunch of times, like a very particular, "What I'm doing now, this is just my life."
0:47:45It feels almost a bit like you're a different person, which lets you look at problems in
0:47:51different ways or sometimes think of solutions that wouldn't have occurred to you in the
0:47:56normal day-to-day routine of your life.
0:47:58Yeah, I mean, I know that you have, I think, mostly established Amsterdam as like your
0:48:04place where you go for this stuff.
0:48:06Yeah, Amsterdam is really good.
0:48:09It's interesting because Amsterdam is really good.
0:48:12For me it has a bunch of reasons why it works really well, but I am also aware that that
0:48:19has also become a little bit of a downside, like I almost know it too well at this point,
0:48:25and so I feel like I have a little bit less of the novelty experience than previously.
0:48:30But it is the place that I have gone the most to think about stuff long term or try to reboot
0:48:38my working process. Because I think that New York really works for me as this place because
0:48:45everything is super accessible on foot a lot of it right like you can just you know I stayed in
0:48:51Times Square for the week and being there it's like well I can just walk down to the coffee shop
0:48:57I can go get some lunch I can go get some groceries and also I have a lot of friends that
0:49:03that live in New York as well. So all of my evenings, I had stuff to do.
0:49:08Like I wasn't just being like a recluse because that doesn't,
0:49:10that wouldn't work for me to be on my own for a week.
0:49:12Of course.
0:49:13So I had lots of lunches and dinners and I'm going back to New York and I'm going
0:49:16to be there for like another 10 days before this thing is done.
0:49:20And I have loads more planned, right?
0:49:22Loads of people to go and meet, loads of companies to go and visit. Like it's,
0:49:26it's a good place for me to be because I can take the time that I need to do
0:49:30what I want to do, but then also still actually interact with other humans on a frequent basis,
0:49:36which I – if I am away without a dinner, I need – like I need to be able to see people.
0:49:42Like just being on my own for multiple days at a time, seeing nobody that I know would
0:49:47have a not so great effect on me. Like I can do a couple of days and it's great and it's
0:49:51useful, but just having a dinner or a lunch every day or two with somebody is – that's
0:49:56very useful for me.
0:49:57I mean, yeah, New York is just, it's an absolutely fantastic place for that.
0:50:01Like, the convenience of it is just perfect.
0:50:05And if you know a whole bunch of people in New York, like, that makes it even better.
0:50:10So I'm glad that you're enjoying your early day.
0:50:14Oh yeah, you said it.
0:50:15In New York.
0:50:16You're finding it productive.
0:50:17Uh huh.
0:50:18You're being a very busy boy in New York.
0:50:19I am.
0:50:20I am very busy.
0:50:21Are you having any time for your regular work, or are you just visiting people and taking
0:50:25meetings?
0:50:26that
0:50:47Are you going to write a novel? No. Again, a lot of people have been suggesting and asking
0:50:52more about this. All I will want to say right now, because it may never happen,
0:50:58is that it will be an audio-based thing. Because I want to apply my skills in a different area.
0:51:03I couldn't write a novel. That's not something I could do. That's just nowhere near my skill set,
0:51:11and it's not a skill set that I am really interested in taking on right now because
0:51:18I feel like I can apply the skills that I have to something else, right? Like I can go ahead and
0:51:24make something fictional and I will say a lot of people have guessed exactly what I want to do.
0:51:29[Music]
0:51:30B: It's not a novel though, I'm surprised.
0:51:33S; Not a novel.
0:51:34B; Such an avid reader as yourself, I would expect that you would want to write a novel.
0:51:37S; It's strange that I wouldn't do that, yeah, like it's super strange I wouldn't do that.
0:51:40it. I still have so much travel to do this year as well. Which I'm excited about.
0:51:46Well you said you still have, you're going to Chicago in October?
0:51:51I'm going to Chicago in October where I'm doing two live shows. I'm doing a live
0:51:58Pan-Addict and a live Connected and I'm going to a conference called Release Notes.
0:52:02And then I'm going to be at PodCon in December. I am a featured guest of PodCon.
0:52:08Oh, look at you, very fancy.
0:52:10My face on the page.
0:52:12There I am, of all these fancy people.
0:52:14Face on the page.
0:52:16That makes it official.
0:52:17And I'm there, I'm going to be there.
0:52:18I don't know what I'm going to be doing yet, but
0:52:20that is something that I'm really excited about.
0:52:22It is the podcast version of VidCon.
0:52:24I've wanted something like this for a long time and I am excited about it.
0:52:29So I'm going to be there and I'm going to be doing something.
0:52:31I'm hoping to do some panels and stuff, but like all of that's
0:52:34going to be worked out later.
0:52:36And I'm going to be in Romania for Christmas,
0:52:37which is the first time that's happening.
0:52:39It's my first Christmas outside of England,
0:52:41so that's gonna be interesting.
0:52:42- You got a lot of travel going on, Myke.
0:52:44- Yeah, there may also be one more trip in here yet,
0:52:46but it's not decided yet.
0:52:48- Man, if you're gonna do all the travel successfully,
0:52:51you really have to sort out your system.
0:52:53- I hate you.
0:52:56- I'm just saying, with a broken ass system like you've got,
0:53:01you're not, you know, I think you gotta work on that
0:53:03before you can do this.
0:53:05- I don't wanna talk to you anymore.
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0:54:42Are you there, Myke?
0:54:46No comment.
0:54:47Oh, yep.
0:54:48Myke doesn't want to talk to me.
0:54:50You're having a timeout right now.
0:54:51This is what's happening.
0:54:52Oh, okay.
0:54:53I'm having a timeout.
0:54:54Mm hmm.
0:54:55Yeah, because you can't give me the silent treatment to effectively on a podcast.
0:54:59Exactly. This doesn't really work. I would like to give you the silent treatment right
0:55:02now but it's a really difficult thing to do. Yeah, and even if you did, people listening
0:55:07in Overcast, Smart Speed would just make your silent treatment totally ineffective anyway.
0:55:11Exactly, it would just make it a treatment which is no silence at all.
0:55:14It would be no silence at all. But I know how to bring you back. I know how to bring
0:55:19you back, Myke. You do, do you?
0:55:20Yeah, I know how to get out of the time out. Which is to tell you, a thing happened in
0:55:26the grey household which I was not expecting to happen yet and for a while.
0:55:33But there is now in the house a TV.
0:55:38Wait was there a TV before?
0:55:41No there was a computer before.
0:55:42Wow now there's a TV?
0:55:44Okay.
0:55:45Yeah there was an iMac that was a TV.
0:55:48So now there's like a TV like a grown up TV.
0:55:51Like a real TV.
0:55:53With one of those stupid grown-up TV remotes that like your parents have with a thousand
0:55:57buttons on them.
0:55:58Yeah.
0:55:59And that I only care about literally one of those buttons, which is the button to switch
0:56:02the inputs, and to switch the inputs to the Nintendo Switch, which is connected to that
0:56:11TV.
0:56:12Your time out is over.
0:56:14I'm back baby.
0:56:15You got a Nintendo Switch?
0:56:17Yeah, I got a Nintendo Switch.
0:56:20I have so many questions and I don't even know where to begin. Why? I guess to start.
0:56:26What made you... what happened?
0:56:28I'd always assumed that I was going to get a TV if and when we move apartments.
0:56:32Wait, did you move?
0:56:34No. Well here's the thing. No, we didn't move. We didn't move. But you know how, you know
0:56:41how like your paranoia and conspiracy is a thing that feeds on itself and it grows in
0:56:47intensity?
0:56:48I am very aware of this right now, yep.
0:56:51I can't point any fingers, but I'll just say that someone in the house got it in her head.
0:56:57Oh, in her head.
0:56:58Look, I'm not specifying.
0:56:59Okay, okay.
0:57:00Sorry, sorry, sorry.
0:57:01I shouldn't try and press on this.
0:57:03Yeah, don't press on it.
0:57:04But someone got it into her head that the iMac that we watched TV on was too small.
0:57:12And this is an idea that starts to feed on itself, because then you watch movies and
0:57:16you think this would be better if it was bigger. Which reinforces the idea that the iMac, our
0:57:2421-inch iMac is not adequate. You've been watching TV on a 21-inch screen for how long?
0:57:32It's not, but here's the thing, the apartment is very small, the screen is not that far
0:57:35away. Great, I live in London, I understand the size of apartments. A 21-inch screen is
0:57:40comedic. You live on the rim, you have like a manor house compared to what I live in probably.
0:57:46So yeah, anyway, it was a little small.
0:57:50A lot small.
0:57:51Yeah, it had been fine for, I don't know, I think we've been living here two and a half
0:57:55years now, but I could see that this was an idea that was self-sustaining, self-feeding,
0:58:04like a nuclear reaction gone out of control.
0:58:08And so I ended up deciding, "I'm going to roll with this."
0:58:15And we got a TV screen, and I figured, well, the TV exists so that we could connect an
0:58:24Apple TV to it.
0:58:26And I thought, well, as soon as there's a TV in the house, now there's a reason for
0:58:29a Nintendo Switch to be in the house.
0:58:31Okay, so I want to-- obviously I'm dying to talk about that, but I need to go back to
0:58:35the TV thing again because there's a way to prove that the iMac was too small and could
0:58:40have been bigger by asking you what is the size of the television that you bought.
0:58:44Uh, I think it's 50 inches? Yeah, so there you go, Gray. Point made. You clearly had
0:58:50enough space and it was clearly too small if you've been able to fit a 50 inch screen
0:58:54into the place that was occupied by the iMac and your eyes have not burned out of your
0:58:59skull, right? You obviously had the space. It does feel very big compared to the distance
0:59:04You've more than doubled it!
0:59:06We're sitting away from it.
0:59:08But yeah, it's a big screen.
0:59:11It's a big screen.
0:59:12I mean, I went with a 42.
0:59:1450, you really pushed it.
0:59:17Yeah, I had to do some negotiating down from larger sizes.
0:59:21What?
0:59:22And I will say that I was victorious in that larger sizes would simply not fit in the space.
0:59:27Yeah, I mean...
0:59:28That was required.
0:59:30This kinda got out of control over here a little bit I think.
0:59:35Yeah, it was a whole thing.
0:59:37But yeah, so now it's weird.
0:59:39It's like, there's something about having a TV that feels weirdly like, oh, very grown
0:59:43up.
0:59:44It's just like, it's this big object.
0:59:46Like I'm not just using discarded old computers to watch stuff on now.
0:59:50Like now I have like a proper TV with HDMI inputs that you have to flick around on the
0:59:55little button to switch between.
0:59:57So yeah, it's in my house.
0:59:59So you bought a Nintendo Switch. Why did you choose the Switch over any other games console?
1:00:06This is a thing that... I'm obviously a gamer, like we talk about games on the show a bunch,
1:00:14like I like video games. You're a hardcore gamer.
1:00:17Yeah, a very hardcore Mac gamer. Yep.
1:00:20[laughter]
1:00:29Are you having a good laugh over there, Myke? Is that very funny?
1:00:31Mm-hmm.
1:00:33People can look at my streaming YouTube channel to see my amazing gaming skills.
1:00:39Other people in my house are not necessarily the same level of gamer that I am.
1:00:44Like, my wife, for example, just to pick a random person who lives in the house as well,
1:00:49She's not really a gamer. Like every once in a while she'll get into something for a little bit, but it's always very temporary.
1:00:55But we've always had this idea that it would be fun to have a gaming system that you can play with somebody else.
1:01:03And I think on that list, Nintendo has always been the thing that is clearly the best for people.
1:01:09And the Switch is the ultimate. The Nintendo Switch, it's the ultimate multiplayer machine. It's full from the ground up.
1:01:17We had it as an idea to get a Wii years and years ago, and then it eventually became the case where it's like,
1:01:22"Well, we're not gonna get a Wii because it's so old." And then the Wii U seemed like a very unsuccessful platform.
1:01:28And then it's just like, "Okay, well when the Switch came out, I told you at the time I wasn't gonna get it straightaway,
1:01:33but I knew like at some point I'm going to have a Switch, and now that point has come."
1:01:39And it's very fun.
1:01:42It's interesting to play and the thing that I feel like is a big victory is
1:01:48I was trying very slowly to introduce my wife to Mario Kart
1:01:54and you forget how someone who's very used to playing games
1:01:58like how much has to be learned with handling a controller if this is not a thing that you've ever done.
1:02:03Like that level of indirection for someone to learn is a real thing.
1:02:08Like it is a real skill that is very easy to forget.
1:02:13And it is a skill that gets increasingly difficult the older you get.
1:02:16Yeah.
1:02:17Kids pick it up incredibly quickly.
1:02:19Yeah. I think that there is like an event horizon over which you probably can't really learn that skill in the same way.
1:02:27So I wasn't 100% sure if this was going to really work with my wife, so I was trying to introduce her very slowly to Mario Kart.
1:02:34and it's like, "Oh yes, look, let's play on the 50cc speed, like here we go, doop-a-doop," like driving around, driving around the carts.
1:02:42I wasn't really sure if it was going to stick, but the other night I was doing some work in my office and
1:02:47when I came out, I saw a very intense wife,
1:02:52right, with headphones on, like connected to the TV, very intense look on her face,
1:02:59driving around on Mario Kart and I thought here we go you picked it up without me
1:03:04Suggesting that this is a thing that we could do together. So I feel like that's a victory. Yeah, you did it
1:03:09So you did it. Yeah, what other games have you been playing? I just all I have is Zelda and I have
1:03:15Mario Kart those those are the two that I got with it. Yeah, I played Zelda
1:03:25I think that I think the same thing that I think of all the Zelda games
1:03:28Which is I want to like them a lot more than I do
1:03:30But in Zelda, I have a psychological problem with Zelda. Okay?
1:03:34My psychological problem with Zelda is hey NPC. I'm not your goddamn errand boy
1:03:40Yeah, but you don't have to do the errands in this game
1:03:43But everybody everybody is telling you like oh you gotta go over here and bring me the thing and it's like oh
1:03:48I'm gonna give you the sword of destiny
1:03:50But I need you to find me four chickens first and it's like find your own goddamn chickens like okay
1:03:55Okay, okay, okay. It's okay. I can help you with this.
1:03:58But you know what I mean? Like these villagers, we're all supposed to be working together.
1:04:02Ganondorf's gonna destroy all of Hyrule. Just give me the sword.
1:04:06You are approaching this game with too much Zelda baggage.
1:04:10You can ignore it. You can do whatever you want. The entire world is open. Just go.
1:04:19You are, you are like, the issue that you are having is mostly self-imposed. Like, there
1:04:25are missions for you to go on, but you can effectively just walk into them. Like, just
1:04:30just go. The game is open for you to explore. If you want to right now run into Hyrule Castle,
1:04:37you can actually do it. You can run to the final boss if you want to. Like, you can start
1:04:42the interaction. You will die immediately.
1:04:45Yeah, but I feel like that's a false choice.
1:04:50Because I know people that have like, very early in the game, run into the castle and
1:04:54picked up a sword that they shouldn't have and teleport out again.
1:04:58Like, you can do that in this game.
1:05:00It's what makes it probably the best video game that I've ever played.
1:05:04Like it is completely open for you to play in.
1:05:08Just stop talking to people and you will enjoy this game more.
1:05:12you really don't I I know side quests and then just when they completed the
1:05:18main story yeah maybe I should try that because I do feel it's like oh all these
1:05:22people to talk to and like words words words like you've all got your little
1:05:27problems and you all want me to fix them they they split up the quests into like
1:05:31main quests and stuff just follow the main most line in the in your objectives
1:05:35and I mean yeah of course you have to talk to people to advance the story but
1:05:40But it's less of like, "I need this sword, can you find it?" or like, "I've lost my chickens,
1:05:46can you run?"
1:05:47It's not really stuff like that.
1:05:48And the things that you do, they don't feel so errand-y, you actually do feel like you
1:05:53are completing a big grand story, which includes-
1:05:56No, it already feels like a lot of errands, like, "Oh, I want to give you the magic thing,
1:06:00but you need to get the blue flame for me first."
1:06:02Yeah, the blue flame one is a bit annoying.
1:06:04But like, just follow those.
1:06:05But you gotta get me seeds, I need magic seeds first.
1:06:08Just don't even do it man, just go for the big like elephant like just run for it like you can do it
1:06:14Just gonna die immediately. Just gonna die immediately if you go for the go for the end
1:06:19That's the whole that's the whole point again. I mean here's the thing like I know I understand like this is the structure of these games
1:06:23This is how these things work
1:06:23but but I know this is this is the kind of thing where it's like I play them for a little while and I find that
1:06:28my
1:06:29Half-life half-life of patience runs dry very quickly
1:06:33Yeah
1:06:33With these kinds of games.
1:06:35The thing is, I have been this guy which is why I have never completed a Zelda game before this one.
1:06:39Hmm.
1:06:40But I've played less of them so I have less baggage.
1:06:43I think that you may be approaching this game with a Zelda mindset.
1:06:47Which I think if you break you will enjoy it more.
1:06:50Maybe. I think I've only completed one.
1:06:53Which is the Game Boy one.
1:06:55It was all a dream. Spoilers for Game Boy Zelda I guess.
1:06:58Oh no!
1:06:58I think it was all a dream.
1:07:00Which made me feel cheated.
1:07:02It's the worst story ending.
1:07:04Any story that ends with,
1:07:05and he woke up and it was all a dream,
1:07:07but he looked to the side and there's a memento.
1:07:09Maybe it was real all along like that.
1:07:11If you end a story that way, you have failed.
1:07:14You have failed at stuff.
1:07:15- It's terrible.
1:07:16I'll give Zelda credit for being beautiful.
1:07:18- It really is.
1:07:19- It's very fire-watchy.
1:07:22- Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree with that.
1:07:24- The art styles are very similar.
1:07:26Firewatch, highly recommend for people
1:07:28if they haven't played it.
1:07:30I like games that have a little story like that,
1:07:33like a game that's a little evening adventure
1:07:35and then it's over.
1:07:36It's not a thousand years of running people's errands
1:07:39like Zelda is.
1:07:40But yeah, I think our style is very similar
1:07:42when we think of that, it's good.
1:07:43And it's just interesting to see with the Switch,
1:07:46I think that Nintendo's signature move is
1:07:49our equipment is underpowered,
1:07:54but we're using it very well.
1:07:55Like, I feel like that's always what Nintendo does.
1:07:58And so far I've been pretty impressed
1:08:00with the way things look on, both on Mario Kart and on Zelda, given the actual specifications
1:08:05of the device that is connected to the TV. Like, it's pretty impressive. So I've been
1:08:10liking it quite a lot, but it's been 90% Mario Kart, 10% Zelda.
1:08:16Spend more time with Zelda. I have some other game recommendations for you though, and some
1:08:19things to be excited about.
1:08:20Please, please do.
1:08:21Are you a Sonic person?
1:08:26I'm happy to try some Sonic.
1:08:27Have you played any Sonic in your life?
1:08:29I played, I like vague vaguely when I was a kid I played Sonic.
1:08:32So there is a game, it's just come out on a bunch of different platforms, but it came out like a couple of days ago called Sonic Mania.
1:08:38Mhm.
1:08:39And Sonic Mania was, has been developed, it's a Sega game, it's an official Sonic game.
1:08:44But the person who made Sonic Mania had been making like Sonic fan games.
1:08:51Hmm.
1:08:52And they were so good, Sega hired them, and they were like, "Make the next Sonic."
1:08:56That's what you want to do when you're hiring a thing.
1:08:59It's like, find someone who's doing it amazingly for free and hire them.
1:09:02And the Sonic franchise has struggled really badly over the years
1:09:06as Sega have attempted and failed to modernize Sonic.
1:09:09Right, by putting him in like 3D worlds and stuff.
1:09:12This is a old school, may as well have been on the Mega Drive looking Sonic.
1:09:16And it is sublime. It is so good.
1:09:21And it's like £15. It's absolutely fantastic.
1:09:25I recommend that one. There's a few games coming out some point this year that I think you'll be
1:09:29excited about. Have you ever heard of Stardew Valley? People have recommended it to me,
1:09:36but I don't actually have any familiarity with it. It is a farming simulator type game,
1:09:45close to Animal Crossing in a way. And I think that it is a game that you will probably end up
1:09:54liking because you know you're just farming right like that's kind of the idea but it's in this like
1:09:59cool kind of retro art style and there are like little missions and things that you can complete
1:10:05as well as just tending to your farm and growing the farm and building the relationships with the
1:10:08people in the town and it's a game that has been incredibly popular on steam and it's coming to the
1:10:14switch at some point this year that's one that's one i think that you should keep on your radar
1:10:19because I think that you would like that game knowing the type of work games that you like.
1:10:25This is like a really popular work game.
1:10:28So that's one.
1:10:29Myke Stowe - Farming.
1:10:31I don't know.
1:10:32It sounds boring, Myke.
1:10:33That doesn't sound like it.
1:10:34Myke Stowe - That doesn't sound as exciting as trucking.
1:10:36Myke Stowe - No, it doesn't.
1:10:37Not even close.
1:10:38Myke Stowe - And there's a Mario game coming out called Mario Odyssey, which looks superb.
1:10:44Like it just looks so good.
1:10:45And people that have played it are like, "Mmm, maybe this is the game of the year and not
1:10:49Zelda."
1:10:50So that is mind-blowing to me that there could be a game better than Zelda, because I think
1:10:55it's amazing.
1:10:57Is it 3D Mario?
1:10:58It's 3D.
1:10:59It's 3D Mario.
1:11:00I know, I know, I prefer 2D Mario, but 3D Mario games can be good, and this one looks
1:11:05really weird in a great way.
1:11:08I feel like in my own gaming history, where Nintendo and I parted ways, was with the N64
1:11:12and with 3D Mario.
1:11:14Like I just, I never crossed that bridge.
1:11:17The perspective change.
1:11:19Yeah, and it is also a thing genuinely in the Zelda game that I just find it,
1:11:25sort of like we were talking about before, that there's a real skill to learning how to
1:11:30indirectly control something in a video game using a hand controller as opposed to iPad games
1:11:35where you're just touching things on the screen.
1:11:36I think there is something about the like separate camera control versus character movement
1:11:44that I just never feel perfectly comfortable with it.
1:11:48And it is a thing that catches me out in Zelda all the time as well is the like,
1:11:52Oh, I need to turn my guy and turn the camera at the same time.
1:11:56Like I just, I find it weird and kind of,
1:12:01I don't want to say clunky, but clunky is kind of what I, what I feel about it.
1:12:05Yeah.
1:12:06Whereas like I'm, I much prefer,
1:12:08like I wish there was a button I could press where it's like,
1:12:10can I just go into first person mode with Zelda? Like,
1:12:12Why do I have to look at this guy? I don't want to look at him. Let the screen just be my eyes
1:12:17Like it's doom or quake like that. That's what I want
1:12:20But I so that's why I'm not super thrilled to hear about a 3d Mario
1:12:24It's like I never I never crossed that bridge and the n64 and I we weren't we didn't get along. We weren't really friends
1:12:31Super Nintendo that was that was the peak for me and that's where I that's where that's where I left Nintendo
1:12:36hmm, well
1:12:39I'll let you know what I think of it when it comes out, but that seems like it could be an issue for you.
1:12:44Hmm. I think it could be. I think it could be Myke. I'm pleased that you have one though.
1:12:49Yeah, I mean honestly just for Mario Kart, it's worth it because Mario Kart is so fun.
1:12:54Like it really is.
1:12:57But I have to say it is interesting because we were talking about pricing models last time about apps going
1:13:04subscription like or doing pay up front and it is a it is a funny thing to
1:13:09have a gaming system back in my life, which I haven't had since the Super Nintendo and
1:13:13to
1:13:16to see the prices that are required
1:13:19for like real in-depth video games that are not going to have in-app purchase bullshit inside of them and
1:13:29It's like I remember as a kid like video games felt really expensive and the Nintendo switch does bring that back to some extent
1:13:35It's like oh boy these games are expensive. Yeah, but I like I I really feel
1:13:40happy to
1:13:43support that kind of stuff like I would much rather pay a bunch for a game and
1:13:47Not feel like I'm being nickeled and dying and to death in the game
1:13:52And it's like but if you if you want to make a game company that is sustainable
1:13:57It's like you're gonna need to pay way more than you're used to on the iPad for these games
1:14:03So it's like I don't I forget exactly what the price of Mario was but it was like woof
1:14:07But I'm happy to do it. It would have been in probably around 40 pounds or something like it's a full ticket game
1:14:13Right, like you're paying a big price, but these are experiences that won't exist otherwise, and I think they're worth it
1:14:19Right, like I strongly believe in it
1:14:22Yeah, that's what I mean to emphasize is like if you're if you were used to
1:14:27two iPhone games like the Nintendo Switch is an expensive proposition, but one of the
1:14:33reasons I like Nintendo is they feel very worth it as a company, like they make interesting
1:14:38things, they make really fun things, and I think Mario Kart is just a great example of
1:14:44that, of like a game that can be fun with a bunch of people, that can be relatively
1:14:49approachable and fun for total newbies, so I am very happy to give Nintendo my money
1:14:55when I have the opportunity to. And so now I have. I've done it with the Switch.
1:14:59talking about things that you pay money for and get really good value out of Gray
1:15:03oh look at you look at you Myke so we only ever talk about this once a year on
1:15:11the show but it is possible if you would desire you can contribute your hard
1:15:17earned money to this show and to other relay FM shows relay FM has a membership
1:15:22program that has a bunch of benefits. You get a behind the scenes newsletter of everything
1:15:27that's going on at Relay FM. We give previews of upcoming shows. There is a members only
1:15:31podcast which we have every month with my co-founder Steven, who we've spoken about
1:15:36a bit on this show. He brings together a couple of different Relay FM hosts that usually aren't
1:15:41together and they talk about a big topic every month. And then the big thing that I want
1:15:45to mention is our bonus episodes. And this is something that goes along with us talking
1:15:50about the membership every year. A whole host of relay FM shows put together a bonus episode
1:15:55of a show. We do a bunch of shows that like mashed together and create something cool
1:16:00and awesome. And they happen throughout August and September. And last year, me and you and
1:16:06Jason Snow, who is my co host on upgrade, we came together and we did a text adventure
1:16:10called Six Gun Showdown. And it was fantastic. And we had a really great time where me and
1:16:15you were traversing through the wild west and Jason was our computer and he was giving
1:16:21and we had to give him commands to allow us to do things and we met Snakey and we died
1:16:25a lot. That's what happened.
1:16:27I gotta say too, just to interject here, I was very dubious about this proposition last
1:16:32year as, I don't know if you remember all of the poking and prodding that you had to
1:16:37do to get me to go along with this.
1:16:38Oh I remember, it was a seven month process it took me to introduce.
1:16:41I'm sure you've forgotten. I don't think it would have left a big impression on your mind.
1:16:44I was very resistant and that was...
1:16:50It ended up being just a really fun experience and a very different kind of thing to do.
1:16:54And I really loved doing Six Gun Showdown last year.
1:16:58Like it was super fun and I have to say the feedback that we got from the episode
1:17:02is that people who were members and who listened to it...
1:17:05It was as close to universal delight as you can get doing a podcast for people.
1:17:11Like it was just a fun experience for everyone, so I was resistant, but it worked out really well in the end.
1:17:18So this year it was way easier to convince Gray, because we did it again.
1:17:22So that's the run-up too. We have done the same thing again, but with a different adventure.
1:17:28We did another text adventure. You, me and Snell, we recorded it together a couple weeks ago.
1:17:33You have been a busy, busy Myke editing it all together. You've sent me a few drafts.
1:17:39you have, if I can say, gone above and beyond with adding in atmospheric sound effects.
1:17:46This is a high production value text adventure that we have done in podcast format.
1:17:52Yeah, I'm very proud of myself. I'm not gonna lie, I'm very proud of myself. I went high concept
1:17:56with this one and I think I pulled it off. We participate in a text adventure called Spooky
1:18:02mana. I think that's all you need to know really to assume what the the theme of the episode is,
1:18:10but we do have a trailer so you can get an idea of the flavor which we're going to play at the end
1:18:14of the episode. Now if you want to get access to spooky mana which is the the cortex bonus
1:18:21and you also get six gun showdown along with so much bonus content it's almost overwhelming.
1:18:28There is so much amazing stuff that happened last year that you can find in the feed that you'll get
1:18:33sent along with all of the great specials that we've got happening this year. Spooky Manor,
1:18:38the bonus for this show and for upgrade, will be published on Friday the 25th of August. So if you
1:18:44become a member before then it will appear then if you become a member after that point you can just
1:18:49go back and find the date it will be in the feed. You will be sent an email when you sign up which
1:18:53has all of the information about how you can subscribe and it will take you off to a page
1:18:57so you can go and do that. You can find out more at relay.fm/membership. But if you just want to
1:19:02donate to this show, you can do that. You can donate to any show, no matter what show you
1:19:07donate to, you get all the same perks. We would obviously love it if you chose Cortex, but you
1:19:12can choose any relay.fm show. You can choose all the relay.fm shows and you can give an amount of
1:19:17money that you choose either every month or every year. So relay.fm/membership to find out more.
1:19:23We would really appreciate it. It just helps. It's a great thing and we try to give you some bonuses.
1:19:29So you can look out for that and I promise you Spooky Manor is worth your money.
1:19:34I'm very proud of it. I think we're all really proud of it. We worked hard on it
1:19:39and I think that you're really, really going to enjoy it.
1:19:41AO There are so many bonuses. You even forgot to mention one, Myke,
1:19:45which is the 5K desktop wallpapers of Relay FM show artwork from members.
1:19:49MIKE That's true.
1:19:49AO So much. You can't even keep track of it.
1:19:52I can't even. So if you become a Relay FM member, you also get sent a link to download
1:19:57beautiful desktop wallpapers of every single Relay FM show. So you can put them and also
1:20:03sometime in the future we're working on mobile versions as well. So the bonuses, they just
1:20:08keep a coming. So we would really appreciate it if you became a Relay FM member and support
1:20:14what we're doing here and we try and thank you in return by giving you access to some
1:20:19cool stuff. So to play out this week's episode, here is a trailer for Spooky Manor. If you
1:20:24want to become a member, read it as a fm/membership, choose your shows, and you'll be sent all
1:20:28the information you need. Thanks if you support us, we really really appreciate it.
1:20:32Thanks for listening everybody.
1:20:33Beep boop, I will be your parser. We are going to be participating in Parsley, episode number
1:20:40three.
1:20:41Spooky Manor!
1:20:47So my instinct right now is to unlock the padlock and wrap the chain around my fist.
1:20:53Computer, is this something that you would permit?
1:20:56There's no way the computer's gonna let you do that.
1:20:58I don't understand, computer, is there something you would permit?
1:21:02Okay.
1:21:03You ride your bike north over the rough cobblestone path.
1:21:07The bike's tires are horribly damaged as you drive to the north.
1:21:12Yep.
1:21:13So, uh...
1:21:14You look at your tires and think to yourself, "Oh dear, how am I going to get home now?"
1:21:20Alright, smash the pheasant with a chain.
1:21:24I'm sorry, you can't do that.
1:21:25Well, I mean, I can.
1:21:26You haven't seen me with a chain.
1:21:28I think you're missing the difference between a fantasy role-playing game and a text adventure.
1:21:32Text adventures have cruel, unfeeling parsers that just reject you when you try interesting
1:21:36things like smashing a pheasant on a table with a chain.
1:21:40Okay, exit crypt?
1:21:43You go into the crypt.
1:21:44It smells of mold and decay, but its sole occupant appears perfectly preserved.
1:21:50Uh, look at occupant?
1:21:52The body of a pale young woman lies dead on a granite slab.
1:21:57Around her neck is a front door key.
1:22:00Oh no, wait, pull on Dante's Inferno.
1:22:03Enter.
1:22:04You pull on the copy of Dante's Inferno.
1:22:06A chute opens beneath you and you fall down, down, down, far, far below.
1:22:14Why can you not just wait?
1:22:17I feel like I have achieved exactly what I wanted to do.
1:22:20There is a monstrous wolf chained to the wall.
1:22:22Jesus.
1:22:23Okay, so there's a wolf.
1:22:27If you would like to listen to your heroes traverse a tricky and terrifying trial, then
1:22:35sign up today to become a Relay FM member.
1:22:38Go to relay.fm/membership, select any show you like (but of course, it should be Cortex)
1:22:44and you'll receive a link to our special bonus content including...
1:22:48A SPOOOOOKY MANNER!
1:22:52[Music]