0:00:00- Could you Star Wars tickets everybody?
0:00:02- Nope.
0:00:02- What, there's another one?
0:00:03(laughing)
0:00:05- That is the most Marco answer I've ever heard.
0:00:06- Keep making these, you believe that Marco?
0:00:08I don't know why you'd think they'd stop but they don't.
0:00:10Is this like the real series
0:00:13or like an alternate series this time?
0:00:15- The real one.
0:00:15- Okay, is it supposed to be good?
0:00:17- I don't know, I'm on an almost full media blackout
0:00:20so I don't know.
0:00:21- Oh is this the last one
0:00:22or is it just kind of like a BS last one?
0:00:24Like who's last one, Osteros can tell?
0:00:25- I mean it's not the last one
0:00:27but it's the last one in a set of nine
0:00:28and then it'll start a new story sequence up after that.
0:00:31- They aren't gonna follow the same characters
0:00:32you think, you don't think?
0:00:33- No.
0:00:34- You think they would invest three,
0:00:35you know, three movies into building up these new characters
0:00:38and then just throw them away
0:00:38and never print money with them again?
0:00:41That seems unlikely.
0:00:41- Not these new characters, the old characters.
0:00:44This is the end of the Skywalker saga
0:00:46which only says that it's gonna be end of the Skywalker saga.
0:00:49It doesn't say that some characters of this movie
0:00:51won't appear in future movies.
0:00:52- Oh, well so okay, so that doesn't mean anything
0:00:55that basically is what--
0:00:56- No, no, it's 'cause the nine movies
0:00:58have basically been the story of the Skywalker family
0:01:01and presumably the next movie will not be the story
0:01:04of someone in the Skywalker family.
0:01:05There's plenty of other people to tell stories about
0:01:07but that's the deal.
0:01:08- Are any of them left who haven't been vaporized
0:01:09or anything?
0:01:10- Spoilers!
0:01:11- They sure are.
0:01:12(laughing)
0:01:13- I bet within like three years they put out episode 10,
0:01:17even if it isn't called that
0:01:18and it still has like Rey and Finn,
0:01:22like it has like the same, like some of the same people.
0:01:25- I think they'll probably restart the numbering
0:01:27no matter what, even if it's like
0:01:28about the same cast of young people,
0:01:30they'll probably restart the numbering.
0:01:31- Oh, they'll call it episode X.
0:01:33- Yeah, well, maybe.
0:01:36I would think they would restart the numbering
0:01:37but we'll see.
0:01:39Just because you get to have a number one then,
0:01:40you know what I mean?
0:01:41Like you get to, like they hired a bunch of directors
0:01:44who are gonna be doing new things
0:01:45and each one of these directors in theory
0:01:47is getting their own trilogy or some crap
0:01:49which is never gonna work out.
0:01:50Like those plans will not actually fall through
0:01:53but part of the way you get these big name directors
0:01:55is like you'll get to start your own trilogy,
0:01:58your own series and they'll all wanna start from one
0:02:00because there he goes.
0:02:01But we'll see.
0:02:02- Star Wars X 10.1, Star Wars X 10.2, et cetera.
0:02:07- All right, let's start with some follow up.
0:02:11We have some follow up with regard to PYHOL.
0:02:13If you recall, PYHOL is the--
0:02:16- Did you shut yours, Casey?
0:02:17- I actually did just moments ago shut my PYHOL
0:02:20because something was broken on the internet
0:02:23and I thought that might have had something to do with it.
0:02:25Anyway.
0:02:25- I made it all of last episode without laughing at this
0:02:27and making jokes about it but like it's just,
0:02:29I can't, it's so funny.
0:02:30- It's so good, it's so good.
0:02:33Anyways, so PYHOL is this thing where you have your DNS,
0:02:38you use it as your DNS server and it will just refuse
0:02:41to acknowledge DNS lookups for things that it believes
0:02:46to be like advertisements and tracking and things like that.
0:02:49And we had talked last episode about how I discovered
0:02:52a shortcut/workflow that would let you quickly
0:02:56and easily disable PYHOL in case you find something
0:03:00that isn't working on the internet.
0:03:01And that doesn't happen that often.
0:03:02I've only had to do it, I don't know, maybe 10 or 20 times
0:03:05in the last almost month that I've been running it.
0:03:06But it does happen.
0:03:08And I had said on the show last week that,
0:03:10"Oh, I couldn't really get it to work.
0:03:11"It was, something was messed up and I didn't know what."
0:03:14Well, I got a chance to play with it after the fact.
0:03:16And then coincidentally, the original author, Chris Doley,
0:03:18emailed me and pointed me to a Reddit thread
0:03:21wherein he released that shortcut to the world.
0:03:25So we'll put a link in the show notes
0:03:26and so you can download it yourself.
0:03:27It did work, as it turns out.
0:03:30I think what had gone wrong was that I have a hostname
0:03:35that points to my house and I was using that
0:03:40as the hostname for this shortcut, this workflow,
0:03:43to go issue an API request against.
0:03:46But I didn't think things through in the two seconds
0:03:49that I spent playing with it.
0:03:50And I actually do not have the Pi-hole
0:03:53admin interface port forwarded.
0:03:54So it was reaching out to the internet
0:03:57to get to my own network, but the firewall was stopping it
0:04:01coming back into my own network,
0:04:03if that makes any sense at all.
0:04:04So in summary, what I needed to do
0:04:06was just use an IP address instead.
0:04:08Once I did that and once I plugged in the correct API key,
0:04:11which if you're following along at home,
0:04:13if you're in the Pi-hole admin interface,
0:04:14you go to console, settings, API/web interface,
0:04:17show API token, and that is the token you need
0:04:20to plug into the shortcut.
0:04:21And once you put all that magical special sauce together,
0:04:25the shortcut worked no problem.
0:04:26And it allows you to quickly and easily disable it
0:04:28or disable it for 30 seconds or five minutes
0:04:30or what have you.
0:04:31So again, we will put a link in the show notes to that.
0:04:33Additionally, somebody wrote to us, Billy Brauner,
0:04:37who is apparently putting together a Swift UI app
0:04:39that is open sourced in order to do a very similar thing.
0:04:43I have not played with this at all.
0:04:44I didn't even crack the code open.
0:04:45I didn't have time, but it's something that we'll also put
0:04:48in the show notes in case you wanted to look at that.
0:04:50So those are ways that you can shut your Pi-hole, Marco.
0:04:53- Thank you.
0:04:54- All right, we talked last episode about indicating
0:05:00or progress indicators and how they're all kind of garbage.
0:05:02And Adam wrote in to point us to a YouTube video,
0:05:05which again will be in the show notes,
0:05:07wherein Microsoft kind of had an interesting take on this.
0:05:09John, would you like to tell us about this?
0:05:12- I'm trying to show something fancier
0:05:14than just a bar that fills from left to right.
0:05:16They're trying to show throughput to give people an idea
0:05:18of like historically how fast have things been going
0:05:21and how fast are they going now.
0:05:22Watch the video.
0:05:24I mean, it's a noble effort, but if you showed that
0:05:28to your average computer user, they'd be like,
0:05:31what is this?
0:05:32Like it does fill from left to right, so that's still there,
0:05:36but it's just complicated enough
0:05:38that they would probably be blinded to the fact
0:05:40that it is essentially filling from left to right.
0:05:41And when it fills all the way to the right, it's done,
0:05:43because it looks like a graph.
0:05:44It's got numbers on it, the numbers change, it's got a line,
0:05:47it's got a shaded region, it's like,
0:05:50I get what they're trying to do,
0:05:53I don't think they've really cracked it.
0:05:54That's the problem when you say, you know,
0:05:56this tool that we have is so crude
0:05:58and we can't give accurate feedback
0:06:01about how long things are going to take.
0:06:03Can we put more information in the same area?
0:06:06I've mentioned in the last show that like the old Aqua
0:06:10progress bar from the original Mac OS X
0:06:13had one second piece of information, which was,
0:06:15it wasn't even a real piece of information.
0:06:16It was an animation to let you know things are still
0:06:19happening, even though this bar isn't moving.
0:06:21But as I said, last show, that's mostly a lie.
0:06:23That texture animates pretty much no matter what.
0:06:26So it's not like that animation is telling you anything
0:06:30other than your computer hasn't entirely frozen,
0:06:32which is somewhat reassuring,
0:06:33but I don't think the solution is to continue to add more
0:06:36and more information.
0:06:37That said, it's cool to see stuff like this,
0:06:39and it would be nice if it was an option for people
0:06:42who really did want to see lots of numbers change
0:06:44or run diagnostics or whatever,
0:06:46but I'm not sure it's the right default choice.
0:06:50- Moving on, one of you guys put this in the show notes.
0:06:53I'm embarrassed to admit it wasn't me that spotted this,
0:06:55and I'm assuming this was Jon, but either way.
0:06:58New Diagnostic Architecture Overview on Swift.org,
0:07:02on the Swift programming language blog.
0:07:04This is a post by Pavel Jaskovic,
0:07:09that we're in, Pavel goes through and talks about
0:07:11how error messaging is going to hopefully be
0:07:15a whole lot better in the future,
0:07:18thanks to some changes to how they're doing
0:07:21type discovery and inference and things of that nature.
0:07:23I feel like I know Swift okay, and a lot of this,
0:07:26my eyes were rolling around in my head
0:07:28in opposite directions trying to read through it.
0:07:30However, if you get to the very end,
0:07:33it is really, really worth it,
0:07:35and there's a heading, Examples of Improved Diagnostics.
0:07:40And again, I am a Swift apologist, I do quite like Swift.
0:07:44Some of the code on this is just as inscrutable as C++,
0:07:48which is about as damning a bit of,
0:07:51what's the opposite of praise,
0:07:52as damning an insult I can give to it.
0:07:54But anyways, if you look at these examples
0:07:56of improved diagnostics, you can see
0:07:58some actually reasonable looking Swift,
0:08:00and where it's wrong, and how these error messages
0:08:03have gotten so much better.
0:08:06And I am really, really excited for this.
0:08:08And I think, and this was John I believe
0:08:10who pointed this out, this is going to be
0:08:13really, really interesting and important for Swift UI,
0:08:16because as Marco and I both lamented,
0:08:18Swift UI's error messaging is so bad
0:08:21it's borderline insulting, and this really smells to me
0:08:25like it's going to be getting a lot better.
0:08:27And in fact, a lot of the examples they use
0:08:29are for Swift UI.
0:08:31- You know, I'm hoping they are, but honestly,
0:08:33like I read through this too, and maybe it's 'cause
0:08:35I don't know Swift or Swift UI well enough yet,
0:08:37but I didn't think that the examples they were showing
0:08:41really indicated that Swift UI's error messaging
0:08:44is going to get that much better.
0:08:46It seems like it's going to get a little bit better,
0:08:47and that's great, it has a long way to go.
0:08:49But like, in the way that a lot of the error messages
0:08:52you get now have these like crazy long,
0:08:56you know, huge type errors, some of which are actually
0:08:58like parse errors, sort of, but it's really hard
0:09:00to figure that out, some of which are like,
0:09:02you know, you're somehow returning a value
0:09:04somewhere inadvertently, or you're returning
0:09:05the wrong value somehow inadvertently,
0:09:07like, I don't think a lot of these,
0:09:09like, while it's good that they're improving this,
0:09:11it doesn't look like they're improving it enough
0:09:14to make the difference between Swift UI error messages
0:09:16being useful or totally inscrutable.
0:09:20- I don't know about that, I think this might get,
0:09:23it gets you to the point that it's at least actionable,
0:09:26because one of the things that's actually conceded
0:09:29early on in this post is that a lot of Swift error messaging,
0:09:32you know, both for Swift UI and not,
0:09:34it just plain isn't actionable,
0:09:36and that's just not useful, and so that's what
0:09:39a lot of this post is about, but I don't know,
0:09:40John, what are your thoughts on this?
0:09:42- This is kind of what I was talking about last week,
0:09:44where it's not just a matter of finding some string
0:09:47in the Swift compiler and saying, oh, this message is bad,
0:09:49I'm gonna put a different string in there
0:09:51to be more clear with the words that I put in.
0:09:53So you can read this whole article and you can see
0:09:56how, you know, it's not a question of phrasing,
0:10:01it's a question of sort of metadata,
0:10:03and even beyond that is that you have to
0:10:07do some unexpected things like continue
0:10:09the compilation process even after you've encountered
0:10:12what you know to be a fatal error
0:10:13so that you can produce a better message.
0:10:15Like you need to have different awareness
0:10:18and data structures and do some fairly Byzantine things,
0:10:22like make a guess at a fix and allow the compiler
0:10:25to continue to try to pinpoint where the actual error is
0:10:27so you have enough information
0:10:30to then construct a better message, right?
0:10:33But even that, as Marco pointed out,
0:10:35that is, this is all with the type checker,
0:10:37the type inference engine.
0:10:40A lot of Swift's errors are inscrutable because of that,
0:10:43but because of the way SwiftUI is structured
0:10:45in sort of this domain-specific language,
0:10:47which is really just fancy word for,
0:10:50you can make a bunch of specially named functions
0:10:52with some implicit arguments or return values
0:10:55or implicit state and then nest them inside each other
0:10:58so it looks kind of like you're making this cool
0:11:00sort of language of your own with curly braces
0:11:03when really it's a series of chained function calls
0:11:05with some stuff that, some implicit code
0:11:07that doesn't actually appear visibly.
0:11:09And because that's what it is
0:11:12and because we're not accustomed to calling a function
0:11:14that calls a function that calls a function
0:11:16that calls a function that calls a function
0:11:17and then like somewhere in the middle of that chain,
0:11:19something went wrong,
0:11:20that's why that even when you have
0:11:22a much better type checker,
0:11:24your message may not indicate to you
0:11:27something useful or explicable
0:11:29because you're not conceptualizing your code
0:11:31as this giant nested series of function calls
0:11:34where in fact that's what it is.
0:11:36You're thinking of it as like, okay,
0:11:37like here's this structure,
0:11:39like you're thinking of it like you're declaring data,
0:11:41like it's a big JSON structure or something
0:11:43and you want it to show you where in the JSON
0:11:45you've done something wrong,
0:11:46where it's like the compiler doesn't look at it that way.
0:11:49And so there's still some ways to go
0:11:51in bridging the divide.
0:11:52This is a necessary first step to say,
0:11:54if you just had like normal Swift code
0:11:56that you would write and not SwiftUI,
0:11:58there's lots of situations where the type checker
0:12:00will give you a garbage error
0:12:01and you don't know what the heck it means.
0:12:02This helps with that.
0:12:04And it also happens to help with those same type of errors
0:12:06that happen in SwiftUI,
0:12:07but I still feel like the sort of novel structure of SwiftUI
0:12:12that it's not structured the same way
0:12:14as your like pre-SwiftUI and I guess pre-Rx or whatever,
0:12:18like your quote unquote normal imperative Swift code
0:12:21would be structured.
0:12:23Because it's different, there's still some more work
0:12:26that needs to be done to be able to give better messages.
0:12:29And I think mostly, well, that will probably come down to,
0:12:31I'm just guessing here, I know nothing about compiler design,
0:12:33but I imagine that what it will come down to is some way
0:12:35to better annotate the actual APIs that make up SwiftUI
0:12:40so that the compiler knows more about
0:12:46how they're expected to be used and what the semantics are
0:12:49and how the developer is thinking about it.
0:12:51As opposed to just like a function
0:12:53that adds two numbers together
0:12:54that you call just as a function somewhere
0:12:56versus something like a function
0:12:59that is used to generate a list
0:13:01or a set of switches or something
0:13:03and then three levels nested down,
0:13:05you put something that isn't allowed to be nested in there.
0:13:07It should know like, oh, this type of control
0:13:10isn't allowed in a list of you switch thingy
0:13:14and be able to phrase that in some way
0:13:17other than referencing the type system.
0:13:19'Cause that's like Swift's tool for everything.
0:13:21It's like, if your types all add up, everything's great.
0:13:24And if they don't, we will tell you what you did wrong
0:13:27in terms of the types.
0:13:29But, and that goes a long way if you have well-chosen types,
0:13:33but sometimes they're like invisible types
0:13:35or types that you didn't declare
0:13:37that you don't know the names of that get referenced
0:13:39when in reality it's trying to tell you something simpler
0:13:42that if someone's looking at the code,
0:13:43like, oh, you can't put that type of control
0:13:44in this container or if you do,
0:13:45you have to have one of these things over there.
0:13:47So still some ways to go, but progress is being made.
0:13:52And I do think it's an interesting blog post.
0:13:54It seems like it's a little,
0:13:56might seem like it's a little over your head,
0:13:57but if you just read it slowly and kind of understand
0:13:59what they're saying and don't get too bogged down
0:14:01into like the, you know, weird generics
0:14:04and templated code they have in the examples,
0:14:06I think it does make sense.
0:14:07- So somebody pointed out to me, forgive me,
0:14:09I don't recall who it was,
0:14:10that the folks at NS Hipster have put together
0:14:15an unbelievably great website.
0:14:18And I am overjoyed that this exists
0:14:21and that I didn't have to do it myself.
0:14:23The name of this website is No Overview Available.
0:14:26And it's at nooverviewavailable.com.
0:14:28And it is subtitled,
0:14:30A Survey of Apple Developer Documentation.
0:14:33And so the NS Hipster folks have put together
0:14:36a list of all the Apple frameworks.
0:14:38So these are all the top level Apple code groupings,
0:14:43I guess you could say.
0:14:44I mean, it's, you know, like address book stuff
0:14:46and audio stuff and things of that nature.
0:14:48And there's a lot of them.
0:14:49So it goes through all of these
0:14:50and they have written some code to parse
0:14:53how much of the documentation
0:14:55for all of these different frameworks is actually available.
0:14:59And, you know, the name of the website comes from,
0:15:02oftentimes you will see the phrase,
0:15:03"No Overview Available" in Apple documentation
0:15:05if they just haven't done it yet.
0:15:06And I gotta tell you, scrolling through this,
0:15:08not good times.
0:15:09Lot of orange, lot of red, not a lot of green.
0:15:13And I actually did intend to count up
0:15:15and get numbers in front of me
0:15:17with regard to how many are green,
0:15:19how many are orange and how many are red.
0:15:21If somebody wants to take the time to do that,
0:15:22please let me know on Twitter or via email.
0:15:26Again, apologies, I didn't get to do it myself.
0:15:28But just scrolling through this will give you a hint
0:15:30that this does not look good.
0:15:31And one of my favorites was looking down
0:15:34at audio toolbox mark alarm, which is at 48.9%.
0:15:38- Yeah, all of the audio frameworks
0:15:40have pretty poor showings here, which is not news to me.
0:15:44(laughs)
0:15:45- I have some questions about the methodology here, though.
0:15:48They were trying to look,
0:15:49they were looking up the symbols in the libraries
0:15:51and finding out how many of those symbols have documentation.
0:15:53Is that what the methodology is?
0:15:55- I think, I didn't go parsing through the source
0:15:57to figure out exactly what's going on here.
0:16:00- That's what I, I mean, this is the thing,
0:16:03like, that's all they can really do, I suppose,
0:16:06because without documentation, there's no way to know
0:16:09which symbols are meant to be public.
0:16:11I know Apple has like the, what are they,
0:16:13underscore, reserve for private, stuff like that.
0:16:14But in general, I don't think it's safe to assume
0:16:17that every symbol in the library
0:16:18is supposed to have public documentation.
0:16:20But that's the only tool they have.
0:16:21So I think that might be making things look worse
0:16:23than they actually are.
0:16:24And the second thing is, maybe I've been in,
0:16:27you know, corporate America too long,
0:16:29but I scroll through this list
0:16:30and I think it looks pretty good.
0:16:32There's a lot of green and orange in there.
0:16:34Like the state of documentation of code,
0:16:36every place I've ever worked would not meet these standards.
0:16:39I mean, obviously, I haven't worked at Apple,
0:16:41and these are supposed to be public facing APIs.
0:16:43- Exactly, yep.
0:16:44- But I still think it looks pretty good.
0:16:46I still, like, they expected this thing to come out.
0:16:49That's a lot of green, a lot of green.
0:16:51- Stop it, this does not fit my,
0:16:54this does not fit my narrative
0:16:55so you are booted off the podcast.
0:16:57- I'm not saying it.
0:16:58It's just, I mean, think of any place
0:17:00you've ever worked, Casey.
0:17:01Have you had this much documentation
0:17:02for your public APIs? - Oh, God, no.
0:17:04Absolutely not.
0:17:04However, I was not vending a public API
0:17:08for hundreds of thousands of developers.
0:17:11- I have vented a public API and we haven't done this well.
0:17:13But anyway, yeah. - John, come on, man.
0:17:15- Obviously, all that matters is what your framework is.
0:17:18You don't care that they have 100% coverage
0:17:21and whatever, like, intense UI or something like that.
0:17:26If you're using audio frameworks and they're in the red,
0:17:30that's your whole life.
0:17:31In fact, if you're using one particular subset
0:17:34of one library and there's no docs, that's worse.
0:17:36You could have, everything could be green
0:17:38except for your one little corner of the library
0:17:40and you still paid Apple for not having the docs.
0:17:42So yes, the bar should be higher for Apple
0:17:44because they have a lot of money
0:17:46and in theory, documentation is parallelizable
0:17:50and can be done with less investment
0:17:55in long-term mental energy than something
0:18:00like designing the frameworks to begin with.
0:18:03One would hope.
0:18:04- You know, it'd be one thing if this was, like,
0:18:06all the new stuff they happened to release in iOS 13
0:18:09and they haven't quite had enough time to get to it yet
0:18:11and they'll get to it in the next six months.
0:18:13But no, that isn't it.
0:18:14- Well, I think that's inexcusable, too.
0:18:16I take your point and I do agree with you,
0:18:18but that is also inexcusable.
0:18:19- But yeah, but that isn't even it.
0:18:21It's even worse than that.
0:18:22A lot of these frameworks are like five or 10 years old
0:18:25and they haven't been documented over that entire time
0:18:27and it seems like they're,
0:18:29I think what bothers me about it is that,
0:18:32not only what Jon said about,
0:18:33it's not like they're so constrained
0:18:35with all their resources that they can't hire people
0:18:38to do this or task people to do this.
0:18:41This is something that can be easily outsourced
0:18:43or tasked to other teams and everything.
0:18:45You don't need difficult engineering scaling problems
0:18:48to solve this.
0:18:49You just need the will and some resources,
0:18:51which they have the resources.
0:18:53I guess they don't have the will.
0:18:54But I think what bothers me is, like,
0:18:56enough about Apple's message to developers
0:19:00over the last few months has been crappy.
0:19:01This is just kind of insult upon injury.
0:19:03Like, it's bad enough that all the platforms
0:19:06that are shipping to customers right now
0:19:07are causing so many problems for developers and customers
0:19:11because they're still so lucky
0:19:12and it was such a rough beta season.
0:19:14And doing the early public beta really was a jerk move
0:19:18by Apple to both their customers and their developers.
0:19:21Launching Catalina without notifying any developers
0:19:24ahead of time when that was gonna happen
0:19:25was really a jerk move to all Mac developers too.
0:19:28Like, this has been like not a great season
0:19:30to be a developer in Apple's world right now.
0:19:33And to add an insult upon injury is like,
0:19:34yeah, you know what, none of this stuff seems documented
0:19:36and it also seems like based on how long
0:19:39some of these things go without being documented,
0:19:40it seems like Apple thinks this is fine.
0:19:43They don't care.
0:19:43Apple thinks this is good enough.
0:19:46And that, I think, is what I hope that websites like this
0:19:50will help convince them differently on.
0:19:52- Well, but that's the thing is that
0:19:54I don't know that Apple thinks
0:19:55this is good enough internally,
0:19:56but I agree with you that because there is nothing
0:20:00spoken about externally, this is all we have to go on.
0:20:04And so by Apple releasing iOS 13 and all these new APIs
0:20:09and to your point, leaving alone all the APIs
0:20:12from many, many versions ago
0:20:14and not having proper documentation about it,
0:20:16that is them saying that this is good enough.
0:20:18I do agree with you, but I'm waiting
0:20:20for all the internal Apple people to be like,
0:20:21well, guys, come on, we don't think this is good enough.
0:20:23But, but, but, but, but.
0:20:24- Well, yeah, I mean, look, go up the chain then, right?
0:20:26Like someone at Apple thinks this is good enough.
0:20:29You can keep going.
0:20:30It's like, okay, maybe you, individual engineer,
0:20:32are unhappy with this, great.
0:20:33How does your boss feel about it?
0:20:35Are they unhappy with it?
0:20:36Okay, how does their boss feel about it?
0:20:37Eventually you hit Tim Cook, right?
0:20:39It's somebody's problem.
0:20:41Somebody needs to care about this kind of stuff.
0:20:43And if you or your boss care but can't get things done,
0:20:48okay, why?
0:20:50Why can't this be improved?
0:20:51Go level up.
0:20:52What, you know, go to that next person.
0:20:54Why can't this be improved?
0:20:56Like the company has seemingly infinite money.
0:21:01I know it's hard to hire for certain things.
0:21:03I know it's hard to scale certain things.
0:21:05But this is one of those things that's actually
0:21:07a lot easier to hire for and scale
0:21:09than a lot of other engineering challenges, right?
0:21:11This really is way closer to like,
0:21:14you know what, you can just choose to allocate
0:21:16resources to this and get it done.
0:21:17Like that's, not everything in the company works that way,
0:21:20but this is one of the things that works a lot more
0:21:22that way than everything else.
0:21:23So the fact is, they don't think it's important.
0:21:27Someone somewhere up the chain has decided
0:21:30this doesn't matter.
0:21:32And so that's why I hope things like this website
0:21:35can kind of help push that on the people
0:21:38who might be hearing and reading about this kind of stuff.
0:21:41- If done well, hiring more people to document libraries
0:21:46can actually be a funnel into helping
0:21:49with your engineering scalability problems.
0:21:52It's not to say that most people want to start
0:21:54by doing documentation to become, you know, programmers.
0:21:58But some people who start in documentation
0:22:02never really thinking that they're gonna be a programmer
0:22:05will end up realizing that they have an aptitude for it.
0:22:07And that's like kind of a farm team
0:22:10for your larger engineering org.
0:22:12And again, that's not to say that there's 100% overlap
0:22:15between those skillsets.
0:22:16People can be very good at documentation,
0:22:17not very good at coding and vice versa.
0:22:19But I think there will be at least some people
0:22:21who start off documenting.
0:22:24And if your documentation team is respected and paid well,
0:22:28and expected to either know or understand
0:22:33the fundamentals of API design,
0:22:36they can find themselves in a position where guess what?
0:22:38After a year or two in this job,
0:22:40you know an awful lot about Apple's APIs.
0:22:43And if you didn't know how to program before
0:22:45or in this particular language before,
0:22:47you probably almost know how to do it now.
0:22:48And so you're perfectly positioned to transition
0:22:51from documentation into the larger engineering org.
0:22:54And vice versa, again, if you pay the documentation people
0:22:57well and respect their position
0:22:58and have a path for advancement,
0:23:00you can see people going in the opposite direction.
0:23:02Lots of the early Apple employees are justifiably famous,
0:23:07not because they wrote Quickdraw or created Switcher
0:23:10or whatever, all the engineering feats
0:23:12of the original Mac team and stuff,
0:23:14but because they wrote amazing documentation
0:23:17for the Apple II or for the Macintosh.
0:23:19And they weren't looked down upon.
0:23:21It's like, well, you didn't write the code.
0:23:22All you did was write the documentation.
0:23:24Yeah, but the documentation was amazing.
0:23:25And amazing documentation was part of the reason,
0:23:28part of the way the good qualities of Apple's products
0:23:32were communicated to developers to let them know,
0:23:35you want to develop for this platform.
0:23:37Isn't it cool?
0:23:38And here, let me explain it to you.
0:23:40Explain our thinking behind it.
0:23:42Explain how things work.
0:23:43Explain how it works together
0:23:44so you appreciate the beauty of whatever system we've made.
0:23:47That was an essential part of both the Apple II
0:23:49and the early Macintosh in terms of gaining market share.
0:23:52Not that iOS is in that position now,
0:23:54but it's always a good thing to have.
0:23:57- Well, and also, I feel like at this point,
0:24:00when not only APIs are broadening and changing
0:24:04at a crazy pace right now,
0:24:07they introduced an entirely new programming language
0:24:10five years ago, whenever that was.
0:24:12Everything converted over to that.
0:24:14That language has changed in that time.
0:24:16Some of the original old sample code doesn't work anymore.
0:24:20A lot of APIs and things don't have sample code
0:24:22in the new language.
0:24:23And now they're trying to also change
0:24:25the entire UI framework.
0:24:27This is a time when we desperately need great documentation,
0:24:33great sample code, great tutorials.
0:24:36We need Apple writing their own code
0:24:39against these new APIs and sharing it with us.
0:24:42We need there to never be anything we run into
0:24:45that says no overview available in the new frameworks
0:24:49and new languages we're supposed to be using now.
0:24:51This is an incredibly critical time
0:24:53that they're trying to really move things forward
0:24:56in some pretty big ways,
0:24:57and there seems to be no guidance
0:25:00on how to use any of this new stuff.
0:25:03Are they ever gonna document any of this stuff?
0:25:04Are they ever gonna have good documentation
0:25:06for SwiftUI, for instance?
0:25:07I don't know, but right now they don't,
0:25:09and they're asking us all to learn it.
0:25:11And I don't know what they expect us to do exactly.
0:25:13- So one way to highlight the problems
0:25:15with this methodology is to look at something
0:25:17like the kernel, where they have 28,000 symbols,
0:25:21only 2,000 of which are documented,
0:25:23but there's probably almost nothing in the kernel
0:25:25that you're supposed to call directly.
0:25:26Like Apple has been really tightening down
0:25:28the public interface to the kernel.
0:25:30Kernel extensions themselves are so incredibly locked down.
0:25:34Now they're basically frowned upon, period,
0:25:37and they have the whole userspace driver thing, right?
0:25:39So it's always, you know, the kernel line on this graph
0:25:42is always gonna be a tiny little dot.
0:25:43There's actually a one with zero as well,
0:25:45and I'm not sure about that one.
0:25:46I owe USB hosts.
0:25:47But anyway, this is all to say that, like,
0:25:50third parties doing this is all well and good,
0:25:52but one way Apple can address this problem,
0:25:56start addressing this problem,
0:25:57is by coming up with their own metrics,
0:25:59because they know, in theory,
0:26:01which APIs are supposed to be public and which aren't.
0:26:04I mean, they certainly know, because I'm sure the tools
0:26:06that they run against your app store submissions know,
0:26:07because if you call a private one,
0:26:09they're gonna reject your app, right?
0:26:10So at the very least, they know, like,
0:26:12okay, this kernel percentage is way off.
0:26:14We, you know, it says 8%, but they don't realize
0:26:17that almost all those symbols are private.
0:26:19For all we know, the kernel has 100% documentation,
0:26:21but Apple knows, right?
0:26:22So they should put on every one of their frameworks
0:26:24and every one of their pages a little bar like this.
0:26:26It says what percent is documented,
0:26:28because if they can see it internally
0:26:29and they're willing to show it to the world,
0:26:31that will hopefully motivate/shame them
0:26:34into making those metrics go up, you know,
0:26:36make it part of people's goals, put it on, you know,
0:26:38however you need to motivate the organization,
0:26:41but especially if you're willing to put a public face in it
0:26:43so that every time someone goes to a particular library,
0:26:46they see this library, this framework is X percent documented
0:26:49like maybe with a date on it, the last time that, you know,
0:26:52so you can historically see a graph of percentage,
0:26:55and then you have actionable data from Apple itself
0:26:57to say, hey, this library has been 42% documented
0:27:01for the past five years, what the hell, right?
0:27:03But we don't have any of that,
0:27:04so all we've got is third-party websites like this,
0:27:07which are a start, but really,
0:27:08Apple should be doing this internally
0:27:10and should be brave enough, courage,
0:27:12to put this on their docs and show it to the outside world.
0:27:15- Agreed, and real-time follow-up,
0:27:17there is in the GitHub repo a brief about the methodology.
0:27:21I'll read a portion of it.
0:27:22This project uses a scraper to crawl
0:27:23and download API symbol documentation
0:27:24from Apple's official documentation website.
0:27:26An API symbol is any page navigable from and within
0:27:30developer.apple.com/documentation that has a declaration,
0:27:33i.e. articles and sample code are not counted.
0:27:35An API symbol is undocumented if an HTML element
0:27:38matches a selector, no documentation,
0:27:40the class, no documentation.
0:27:42So that's the methodology.
0:27:43It is clearly not flawless nor foolproof,
0:27:46but as a reasonably consistent first step,
0:27:50I don't think it's unreasonable.
0:27:52- They can post their test coverage too on the pages.
0:27:54That'd be scary.
0:27:54- Oh, that would be amazing.
0:27:56Well, that's the thing though.
0:27:57I used to work at a government contractor
0:27:59many, many moons ago, and we were using the Rational Suite,
0:28:03which was awful in a million different ways,
0:28:07but it made sense given the context.
0:28:08And what that meant was I couldn't check in code
0:28:11unless I specifically in the tools associated it
0:28:14with a issue number or ticket or what have you
0:28:17that that change was for.
0:28:19And they could have,
0:28:21although I don't recall this being the case,
0:28:22they could have gone to the level of not allowing me
0:28:25to check in code unless there's code coverage
0:28:28on that new code.
0:28:29And I could have not been able to check in code
0:28:32if I didn't have documentation coverage
0:28:35against that new code.
0:28:35Like the big businesses where they take this stuff
0:28:39this seriously, this is a solvable problem,
0:28:42which is exactly what you two have been saying.
0:28:43Like if Apple really did care about this,
0:28:45this would get solved.
0:28:47But the problem is whether or not the rank and file care,
0:28:50I could not agree with you more, Marco,
0:28:51someone somewhere does not care enough
0:28:53to make this a priority.
0:28:54And that's just one more reason why,
0:28:57again, to quote you, Marco,
0:28:58this season of being an Apple developer
0:28:59has really just not been fun.
0:29:01(upbeat music)
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0:31:13- It is October as we record it is the 21st of October
0:31:20and we have yet to hear about the October event
0:31:21that I guess isn't happening.
0:31:24What's going on here?
0:31:25- All the rumors say we're getting a 16 inch MacBook Pro
0:31:28with a hardware escape key and scissor switch keyboard.
0:31:31Any day now, yeah, I put this item in here
0:31:34and there was a one word item but Casey exactly picked up
0:31:37on what I was getting at.
0:31:38The one word says just October.
0:31:40It's the 21st.
0:31:41This episode will come out on the 23rd or whatever.
0:31:44I know Apple doesn't like to give a lot of notice
0:31:47and they can have an event in early November
0:31:49but I really do hope before the end of the year,
0:31:52obviously A, they put it with the Mac Pro configurator
0:31:54but B, 16 inch MacBook Pro with a new keyboard.
0:31:58If you don't wanna have an event Apple
0:32:01and you just wanna do a private press thing,
0:32:03whatever, we just want the machine.
0:32:04- I originally thought like weeks ago
0:32:06when we were trying to predict this,
0:32:07I thought well, you know, would they really introduce
0:32:09like a brand new laptop without demoing it
0:32:12like in a public way?
0:32:13That leaked alleged image is in 10.15.1 beta, right?
0:32:19Whatever it is.
0:32:21It was all over the rumor sites a few years ago.
0:32:23It's one of those like rendered icons
0:32:25that like you see where the system has to show
0:32:29an icon for a certain Apple device
0:32:31and it has like these stock icon images
0:32:34of every Apple device, every model and everything.
0:32:37It shows in things like the about window
0:32:38or in like connecting to network share, stuff like that.
0:32:41There's this image resource that claims
0:32:45to be the MacBook Pro 16 inch and by various conventions
0:32:48and by looking at it next to the other one,
0:32:50it does seem like that's very likely.
0:32:52So it appears that we have Apple's official rendering
0:32:55of this device from the front
0:32:57and there was this helpful little animated GIF
0:33:02on the MacRumors post in the comment section.
0:33:05I'll put it in the show notes
0:33:06by user Stanley.OK that shows you can very quickly
0:33:10see them compared like the old 15 inch and the new 15 inch.
0:33:14And you can tell that the 16 inch one
0:33:17is clearly a bigger screen, smaller bezels
0:33:20proportionally to the screen and you can tell
0:33:22there's a very, very, very slight difference
0:33:25on the keyboard at the top where it does appear
0:33:29as though there is a hardware escape key
0:33:31to the left of the touch bar
0:33:32and a separated power button to the right of the touch bar.
0:33:35But what's interesting is how little else appears different.
0:33:40They appear to be very, very similar
0:33:44and so I'm not sure Apple's really going to want
0:33:47to very loudly announce this is a brand new laptop.
0:33:51And there's all the complicated reasons
0:33:53with the keyboard issues they've had,
0:33:55they might actually try to downplay this a little bit.
0:33:57They might actually just be like,
0:33:59here's our new 16 inch MacBook Pro
0:34:02and not much else about it might be changed
0:34:06besides the screen proportion
0:34:08and that it now has a scissor switch keyboard.
0:34:10It wouldn't surprise me if it has like all the same ports.
0:34:14It looks like from this image,
0:34:16it looks like things like the trackpad area
0:34:19which many people thought was too large
0:34:20and it got in the way of your thumbs
0:34:22and would cause accidental input.
0:34:24That appears to be unchanged by this image.
0:34:26The spacing between the keys which I've always said
0:34:31because it got smaller on the butterfly keyboard generation,
0:34:34it actually made it harder to feel where the key caps ended
0:34:37and therefore I think that's part of what made me
0:34:40less accurate of a typist on these new keyboards.
0:34:42That appears to be unchanged as well.
0:34:45The distance that the keys appear to be raised up
0:34:48from the like bed they sit on
0:34:51also appears unchanged in this image.
0:34:53So granted this is not a super high resolution image
0:34:56of the keyboard itself and it's also a marketing image
0:34:58and everything so you know, it's sanitized
0:35:00probably in certain ways but this doesn't look like
0:35:03it's that different of a laptop from the 15 inch
0:35:06that we've had for three years.
0:35:08And so therefore I'm guessing that,
0:35:12you know combine that with all the you know,
0:35:15embarrassing and legally problematic keyboard problems
0:35:18Apple has had, they might just downplay it.
0:35:21They might just be like hey, here's the new update.
0:35:23You know, have a few briefings here and there
0:35:26and you know, do a big press release.
0:35:28Some YouTubers have them do like some rendering tests
0:35:30or whatever and that might be it.
0:35:32Because you know, they might just want to like
0:35:35get this out there and quietly start solving
0:35:38the keyboard problem and if not much else has changed
0:35:42there actually isn't that much more for them
0:35:44to have an event about.
0:35:45And we kept thinking you know, beyond the 16 inch
0:35:48MacBook Pro, we've been trying to figure out for a while
0:35:51in the rumor mill like okay well if they had an event
0:35:53what else would be in the event?
0:35:55Is it just this new laptop?
0:35:56That seems like they wouldn't have a whole event
0:35:58just for that especially if it's you know,
0:36:00not a huge revision.
0:36:01So okay, what else is there?
0:36:04iPad Pros have been pretty definitively ruled out
0:36:06by the rumor mill for like you know, not this fall.
0:36:09Other laptops also ruled out probably not this fall.
0:36:13So we're basically left with like the possible AirPods
0:36:17with the squishy tips and the possible noise cancellation
0:36:19that we talked about last week and the alleged like
0:36:23tile tracker thing that uses the ultra wideband chip
0:36:26and maybe a HomePod update.
0:36:28Like it seems like there's not quite enough there.
0:36:32And if you think back to this past spring, Apple in the span
0:36:36of a week had I think four product releases all done
0:36:39by press releases like one each day.
0:36:41They had like the new iPad Mini and the newish iPad Air
0:36:46at the time and then they had I believe that was when,
0:36:49was that when new AirPods came out?
0:36:51I forget when that, anyway.
0:36:52So like this past spring they had like a few days in a row
0:36:55where they had press releases for just a few product releases
0:36:57and that was it.
0:36:58They might just be doing the same thing this fall.
0:37:00Like they might just have you know, press release for this.
0:37:03Maybe a couple days or a week later they might have,
0:37:05hey here's you know, AirPods with in-ear tips.
0:37:08These might not be major event worthy things.
0:37:11- You know like many of their icons they have in the OS,
0:37:15I'm assuming these aren't actually photos
0:37:17but are just renders.
0:37:18And they're not even like, a lot of things
0:37:19in Apple's websites are renders but the icons tend
0:37:22to be renders that aren't even meant to be photo realistic.
0:37:25They're a little bit iconic if that makes sense.
0:37:27Like a little bit painterly.
0:37:29So it wouldn't actually surprise me if like 3D models
0:37:32they just copied and pasted the keyboard.
0:37:34Like that's why they look the same height.
0:37:36In other words I'm not willing to believe that the,
0:37:39you know all the rumors say that these have more travel
0:37:42distance but they don't stick up anymore because this
0:37:45is a rendering and they wouldn't bother with that.
0:37:47But they did apparently bother with separating.
0:37:48- I would bet against that John.
0:37:50I would bet, 'cause the reason why.
0:37:51- I mean this, there was a rumor that they have more travel
0:37:53than they have twice the travel of the previous ones.
0:37:56Right, it was like one millimeter keyboard versus .5.
0:37:59- Yeah, they call this one millimeter keyboard
0:38:01and I think the butterfly has about .5 millimeters of travel
0:38:06but, and this is allegedly a scissor mechanism
0:38:08and everything, I was hoping for more,
0:38:11it's hard to tell whether you have inverted T arrows or not.
0:38:14You can't really tell from this.
0:38:15- I don't think that's changed but like I think--
0:38:17- Basically it looks like almost nothing else has changed.
0:38:19And I think a lot of our perception of Apple is resting
0:38:24on this laptop release.
0:38:26Like they're gonna communicate a whole lot to us with this.
0:38:29And what they might be communicating to us is we're gonna do
0:38:32the least amount of change possible to alleviate the issue
0:38:36that's hurting them, you know not us.
0:38:39Like you know users have had lots of issues with this
0:38:43generation of laptops.
0:38:44Many people want a no touch bar option.
0:38:48Many people are not happy with the track pad size.
0:38:50Many people are not happy with the ports being so limited.
0:38:54Many people aren't happy with losing the SD card.
0:38:56Like there's so many things, so many things on this laptop
0:38:59have really polarized and angered and lost people
0:39:03or cost them a lot of money or made things worse for them.
0:39:06And Apple so far to date has changed almost nothing
0:39:11about them since their introduction in 2016.
0:39:14Almost nothing has been changed.
0:39:16Apple has seemed to be doing the bare minimum possible
0:39:20for these last few years to just eke out a little bit more
0:39:24out of this.
0:39:25And like you know as a Mac person obviously like this has
0:39:27bothered the crap out of me.
0:39:28Everyone listening to this show knows that.
0:39:30Like this has bothered the crap because this generation
0:39:33of laptop has just felt punitive.
0:39:35It has just felt like Apple hates us.
0:39:37They hate Macs, they hate us, they hate these laptops
0:39:40and they hate everything that we like about them.
0:39:42Like that's how it has seemed to their customers.
0:39:45And they have just done like little band-aid
0:39:47after little band-aid after little band-aid
0:39:48over and over again to like just get the least change
0:39:51possible with this.
0:39:52And you know and I said last year like when you compare
0:39:55this to what's going on with the iPad line.
0:39:58Like look at the iPad Pro.
0:39:59The iPad Pro is fantastic.
0:40:01Like every time they touch that it gets so much better.
0:40:05And it seemed like they're just like showering iPad Pro
0:40:09users with like awesome advances all the time.
0:40:11You know it's like a gift.
0:40:14Every year or every 18 months whatever it's like a gift.
0:40:16Look how much better the iPad Pro is.
0:40:18And on the Mac side it's like we hate you.
0:40:20Stop using these.
0:40:22Why we, that's how it feels.
0:40:24Like to be a Mac laptop owner for the last four years.
0:40:28That's how it feels.
0:40:29It feels like they hate us honestly.
0:40:31It feels like they don't like these machines.
0:40:33They don't want to be using them.
0:40:34They don't want us to be using them.
0:40:36They hate everything good about them.
0:40:37They hate that they're versatile computers.
0:40:39Honestly it feels like they hate these machines right.
0:40:42It matters so much what direction they've chosen to take
0:40:46with the new 16 inch.
0:40:47This is going to be the first totally new hardware design
0:40:50since 2016.
0:40:52What have they done?
0:40:53Have they only changed the keyboard to a scissor mechanism?
0:40:58Which will only fix a couple of issues with it.
0:41:02Or have they taken a more holistic approach
0:41:05to actually fixing a lot of the other problems
0:41:07people have with it.
0:41:08So is it only to fix the problem that was costing them
0:41:11a lot of money and causing lawsuits?
0:41:13Or are they actually making a product
0:41:16that their customers are going to love?
0:41:17That's the big question.
0:41:19That's why so much is riding on this.
0:41:22- I hope you feel better but I was just talking
0:41:24about the keyboard.
0:41:25You said that the keyboard, the keys didn't look like
0:41:27they were any higher in the picture.
0:41:29And I was saying it's just a render.
0:41:31Even though the keys and the keyboard don't look like
0:41:33they're any higher, there will be twice as much travel.
0:41:36I agree with you on everything else though.
0:41:37I totally believe that the trackpad's going to be
0:41:39the same size.
0:41:40The key layout's going to be the same thing
0:41:43as it was before with a slave to symmetry
0:41:45with annoying arrow keys.
0:41:46I agree that all the ports are going to be the same.
0:41:49That much, as I said I think several shows ago,
0:41:54all I want is a new keyboard and one more port
0:41:56and we're going to get one of those things.
0:41:58It's going to be the keyboard.
0:41:59Yeah, part of it also looking at these images
0:42:02is kind of the design corner they've painted themselves into
0:42:05in that aside from better key layout and more ports,
0:42:09they have to make some different decisions about
0:42:11just the overall design if they want to do anything else
0:42:15interesting with these laptops.
0:42:17Even something as simple as the long, long overdue
0:42:20face ID on a Mac.
0:42:21In theory, given the size of the bezels
0:42:25and the rumored face ID hardware that's not going to
0:42:28require a notch on the next iPhone,
0:42:30they could sneak those into a laptop style form factor maybe
0:42:34or maybe put them someplace else.
0:42:36There are things you can do to innovate in laptop design
0:42:40to incorporate more features than Apple has wanted to
0:42:42and based on these drawings and based on what we all
0:42:45expected, this is not that laptop.
0:42:47It's almost like they took how many years?
0:42:49Three, three years, three and a half years?
0:42:53Took like three and a half years to apply a bandaid.
0:42:55We don't want to call it that because there have been
0:42:57so many bandaids between all the different revisions
0:43:00to that keyboard but this looks a lot like
0:43:02that previous keyboard.
0:43:05Imagine if this laptop came out after the first
0:43:07bad butterfly keyboard.
0:43:09It would be like, well, they didn't have time to redesign
0:43:11the whole laptop.
0:43:11All they could do is replace the keyboard
0:43:13and that required a bit of a redesign so here it is.
0:43:15But instead, we got to wait three years
0:43:17for what is essentially, we haven't changed our philosophy
0:43:20of this product.
0:43:21We haven't changed the product design.
0:43:22We've just changed the component part.
0:43:24So the screen is better and bigger, a little bit bigger
0:43:27and the keyboard isn't crappy anymore.
0:43:29But every other sort of design decision about this laptop
0:43:33remains the same, at least as far as we can tell
0:43:35in this picture.
0:43:36Now, that said, as a laptop hater, I hate all laptops,
0:43:40not just the Apple ones, one thing that you can do
0:43:44in a laptop design, even if you don't sort of change
0:43:46any of the things that we've discussed,
0:43:49that can have a big effect on how people feel
0:43:51about the laptop is all the stuff that's hidden
0:43:53on the inside.
0:43:54So in particular, cooling and packaging,
0:43:58like if you can figure out how to sort of iMac Pro
0:44:01this thing, like, oh, it's the same size and shape case
0:44:04as it was before, but compare the sort of experience
0:44:08of using a 5K iMac and the experience of using an iMac Pro.
0:44:11Outside, they look the same except one is darker.
0:44:14But you love the iMac Pro because it's quiet and it cools,
0:44:18the parts and the parts inside are faster.
0:44:21If you could do that with this one,
0:44:22where externally it looks more or less the same,
0:44:24it's also the flat laptop, they all kind of look the same,
0:44:27the screen is bigger, but boy, this one never overheats
0:44:30or this one doesn't throttle down under speed
0:44:32or this one I never hear the fan spin up.
0:44:35That is a significant sort of quality of life improvement,
0:44:39even if you're gonna continue to be stingy with ports
0:44:41and have a bad keyboard layout, yada, yada, yada.
0:44:44Can't tell that from render.
0:44:46And you know, it might just be wishful thinking
0:44:48because there's a lot less room to work in a laptop
0:44:50than otherwise, but I think the iMac Pro shows
0:44:53that it is possible if we get lucky
0:44:57and if Apple is inspired to take an existing form factor
0:45:00and basically make a better computer inside
0:45:03more or less the same design.
0:45:04And this case actually is bigger.
0:45:06Like if you hold the next video,
0:45:07it's not just the screen that's bigger,
0:45:09the actual thing that holds the battery and the CPU
0:45:12and all that stuff also looks a little bit bigger,
0:45:15so maybe there is more room to do cooling.
0:45:16So if you want to get your hopes up,
0:45:19don't get your hopes up about ports,
0:45:20don't get your hopes up about key layout,
0:45:22don't get your hopes up about face ID, that's for sure.
0:45:25But maybe best case scenario,
0:45:27you can get your hopes up about cooling and NVH,
0:45:30as they say in the auto industry.
0:45:31(laughing)
0:45:34- I don't know.
0:45:35Something I've been thinking about a little bit lately
0:45:37is what is Apple's kind of long-term plan
0:45:41with their computers?
0:45:43Because if you look at both the iMac line
0:45:45and the MacBook Pro line, as you guys have mentioned,
0:45:49they're all getting a bit long in the tooth design-wise.
0:45:51And I can't decide if I think that's a problem or not.
0:45:57Because I exchanged just a couple of tweets
0:45:59with Steve Trout and Smith,
0:46:00and he was saying in so many words,
0:46:03and I'm probably painting it unfairly,
0:46:05but what I heard him say, whether or not he actually said it,
0:46:08was Apple's laptop line is boring
0:46:12and they're not trying anymore.
0:46:14And I can't decide if he's right
0:46:16and they should be trying new and clever things,
0:46:18or if it's that they have realized what they believe
0:46:23to be the naked robotic core of computing
0:46:26and they just don't feel like there's anything else to do.
0:46:29If you look at a computer, it's generally speaking,
0:46:31it's a mouse, a keyboard, and a screen.
0:46:33And be that an iMac or be that a MacBook Pro,
0:46:36they may have reached what is almost peak,
0:46:41keyboard, monitor, and mouse.
0:46:43And am I okay with that?
0:46:45And so I wanted to go back and forth with Steve about it,
0:46:48and I guess I could have privately,
0:46:50but I didn't want all the drive-bys on Twitter.
0:46:53But a lot of the stuff like the Surface line,
0:46:56Steve had cited as something that's really exciting to him.
0:46:59And I don't know, I just,
0:47:01I don't find myself getting really excited
0:47:03about new and different takes on keyboard, mouse, and monitor
0:47:08and maybe I'm old, maybe I'm boring, maybe both,
0:47:12but I don't think I necessarily want like a grand revamp
0:47:17of a MacBook Pro or an iMac.
0:47:19Like I'm okay with the design.
0:47:21Yeah, I'd like smaller bezels.
0:47:22Yes, I'd like Face ID.
0:47:24But I don't know, am I being crazy?
0:47:27Is it silly to kind of be okay
0:47:29with the general gist of what we've got?
0:47:32- No, that's not crazy at all.
0:47:33The reason why we are pretty much okay with our iMacs
0:47:37looking the same for a pretty long time
0:47:39is because it's fine.
0:47:40They actually work really well this way.
0:47:43And they don't look as modern and cool as they might
0:47:47with things like smaller bezels, as you said.
0:47:49But like it's not like a problem that's really a big deal
0:47:52to us, like I look at an iMac every single day
0:47:56and I notice the bezel almost never.
0:47:58And I look at the big chin on the bottom almost never
0:48:04because there's a giant bright glowing screen
0:48:06in the middle that's taking all of my attention.
0:48:09I don't need to look at the case of my iMac very often.
0:48:13I don't see it, I don't handle it or touch it
0:48:16or move it very often.
0:48:18Although I move them more than most people do.
0:48:20- That's a fact.
0:48:21- But like you know, so it's not a thing
0:48:24that's really a critical part of the experience
0:48:26of owning this computer.
0:48:27Like the way the iMac looks is fine.
0:48:30It's totally ignorable and asking them to redesign the iMac
0:48:34is kind of like asking them to redesign
0:48:36like the power brick of a laptop.
0:48:38It's like yeah, you know it's a thing,
0:48:39it's a part of using it but like it's not a huge deal.
0:48:42- Well I agree that it's in a good place
0:48:44compared to laptops but the iMac,
0:48:47not the case so much but the stand.
0:48:49The stand is ripe for improvement
0:48:51and Apple has been known to do some interesting innovations
0:48:55in the stand area.
0:48:56If it was height adjustable and could rotate,
0:48:59that would be a better iMac.
0:49:01And again, I'm not comparing it to laptops
0:49:03which are in much worse place.
0:49:04The iMac is fine and it's been fine for seven years
0:49:07and I don't think it's desperately dying to be redesigned
0:49:09but if you wanted to redesign it,
0:49:11if you made it adjustable height,
0:49:13adjustable angle and rotatable,
0:49:16no one's gonna frown at that iMac.
0:49:17That would be awesome.
0:49:18Keep all the good things about it
0:49:19and make the one part of it even better.
0:49:21So there is definitely room for improvement on the iMac.
0:49:24It's just that the current one,
0:49:26especially the iMac Pro is really good.
0:49:28So no one is dying for that change to happen
0:49:31but I do think about it.
0:49:32- That's true although the problem is now we do know
0:49:35that if they did that, they would charge
0:49:36an extra $1000 for it.
0:49:37(laughing)
0:49:38- They're gonna make it, don't make the iMac one
0:49:40out of unobtainium or whatever the hell.
0:49:42(laughing)
0:49:44- No but like-- - XDR.
0:49:45- So yeah, so like the iMac is obviously like,
0:49:49you know, it's fine.
0:49:50It's a design that doesn't get in the way.
0:49:53Whereas like the laptops have so many problems.
0:49:57There are so many shortcomings and incredibly polarizing
0:50:01or unreliable things or limiting things.
0:50:05That's why people who think that laptop innovation is over
0:50:10aren't looking at it enough or aren't trying very hard
0:50:12to think about like, you know, how could this be better
0:50:16or how could this be brought forward?
0:50:18Like there are so many ways that laptops can get better.
0:50:22Look at what the entire rest of the industry is doing.
0:50:25Apple doesn't make the best laptops anymore.
0:50:27They simply don't.
0:50:28If you look at the PC world, especially like what Microsoft
0:50:30is doing, again, like we made fun of them a long time ago
0:50:33when their like weird laptops and Surface things sucked
0:50:36but they don't anymore.
0:50:36Now they're pretty good and people like them a lot
0:50:38and they sell a pretty good number of them now
0:50:40and they are objectively good by many people's measures
0:50:44and many people's experiences.
0:50:47You know, I'm not saying that Apple needs to make
0:50:49as many crazy bets as Microsoft does
0:50:51but I would like them to try.
0:50:55I would like them to not have stopped trying.
0:50:57The impression I've gotten since the touch bar introduction
0:51:01in 2016 is like that was their big try
0:51:04and then they just stopped.
0:51:06And that wasn't that big or that good of a try.
0:51:09We haven't seen yet what this new thing is.
0:51:12I sure hope John is right that this image
0:51:14is not incredibly detailed or accurate
0:51:17but I fear that it is.
0:51:19I fear that this is literally all they have for us.
0:51:22- I think it's accurate.
0:51:23You just can't see the sides so you could continue
0:51:25to fantasize that there's more ports there.
0:51:27But proportion wise and everything else about it,
0:51:29I think the trackpad will be the size they show.
0:51:31I think the overall laptop will be the size
0:51:32and I think the key layout will be the way they show it.
0:51:35I just think there'll be twice as much travel
0:51:37and there'll be scissors switches
0:51:38and maybe the screen will be a little bit brighter.
0:51:40I think what they need in the laptop line
0:51:42is they need their Mac Pro moment.
0:51:44They need to make one model of their laptops
0:51:46that has more ports and is more versatile.
0:51:49I don't know what the equivalent of the Mac Pro is
0:51:52but the Mac Pro as compared to the iMac Pro,
0:51:55first of all they're starting off with the iMac Pro
0:51:56which is itself a great computer.
0:51:58But the Mac Pro is like, how can I,
0:52:01we talked about this so many times
0:52:03before the computer came out,
0:52:05what can we use to justify the Mac Pro
0:52:07and the iMac Pro exists?
0:52:09And they have plenty of answers.
0:52:10There's ridiculous things the Mac Pro does
0:52:12that the iMac can't even imagine,
0:52:14in terms of expandability and yes also cost
0:52:17and stuff like that.
0:52:17There's no equivalent to that in the laptop line.
0:52:20If they just innovated in that direction,
0:52:24I feel like they could be their laptop halo car
0:52:26where they could try a ridiculous expensive laptop
0:52:29that is hugely versatile in the same way
0:52:31that the Mac Pro is hugely versatile.
0:52:33Hell, make it hugely expensive.
0:52:35Probably can't literally make it huge
0:52:37because that's not a good quality in a laptop
0:52:39but you could make it a little bit bigger.
0:52:41And experimenting with that very expensive,
0:52:43very versatile, very powerful laptop,
0:52:46again there are lots of examples of this in the PC world,
0:52:48gaming laptops and other like,
0:52:50laptops made for versatility and performance
0:52:52that seem weird and obscene but I guarantee you
0:52:55that if there's a market for the Mac Pro at all,
0:52:57there's a market for a, let's call it a MacBook Pro.
0:53:01Maybe they'll have to come up with a new name.
0:53:03And by doing that, it would be an interesting test bed
0:53:06to see like if they start driving people up market
0:53:08and like no one buys the regular MacBook Pro,
0:53:11they all buy the MacBook Pro XDR
0:53:13or whatever the hell thing they call it,
0:53:16it would show them, hey, maybe if we put an SD card slot
0:53:18in our supposed MacBook Pro,
0:53:20I don't know what the market is asking for.
0:53:22Is it a key layout?
0:53:23Is it ditching the touch bar for something else?
0:53:26But it's clear that there's a lot of dissatisfaction
0:53:28with the current sort of design trend
0:53:30and all the way up and down the line,
0:53:32even though one of them's called the MacBook Air
0:53:34and they used to have a thing called the MacBook
0:53:36and the MacBook Pros and like,
0:53:37even though they have this differentiation in price
0:53:41and in like the chips they use in them,
0:53:43in general, the design makes very similar decisions,
0:53:46you know, right down to my original complaint
0:53:48when they went to loan them
0:53:50is they use the same freaking keyboard
0:53:51no matter how big the laptop is.
0:53:52The same keyboard, the same key layout,
0:53:54pretty much the same compliment of ports
0:53:56who just decrease the number as the prices go down.
0:53:59It's getting very samey
0:54:00and there's not a lot of differentiation.
0:54:02So if they had a Mac Pro moment and went and said,
0:54:05"We've heard you, we're gonna make
0:54:07"a versatile laptop for pros,"
0:54:09I don't know how they would phrase this,
0:54:11I think they could learn a lot from that.
0:54:12Maybe they'd learned that we're wrong
0:54:14and really nobody wants that laptop
0:54:16except for people on Nerdy Tech Podcasts, fine,
0:54:19but you know, I don't know,
0:54:22maybe we're still living in a tech nerd bubble
0:54:24but I don't hear lots of people who are super duper
0:54:26in love with their MacBook Pros over the past few years.
0:54:29- Yeah, and this, actually I don't, hilarious idea.
0:54:33So I realize this might be the last episode of this show
0:54:38that gets recorded and released
0:54:40before this new laptop is unveiled.
0:54:42And I thought, when this happens to iPhones,
0:54:45we usually have an exit interview.
0:54:47- Oh God, no, please never.
0:54:49- And I realized we don't need to do an exit interview
0:54:51for this current generation of MacBook Pros.
0:54:53The entire last three years of our show
0:54:55have been the exit interview for these MacBook Pros.
0:54:58- Exit interview slash funeral.
0:55:00- Oh God, I hope, I hope this is it.
0:55:05I hope this is the end of this horrible era.
0:55:07You know, not to make a political analogy
0:55:10but you kind of feel like,
0:55:11boy I made a lot of mistakes over the last few years.
0:55:13Let's hope the world is coming out of things.
0:55:15And this is just part of that for me.
0:55:18I just want to end this era
0:55:20and be able to look back on it
0:55:21and make jokes without them being so painful
0:55:23because it's still our present day.
0:55:25- Yeah, and honestly, we said like,
0:55:26oh, they're just fixing the thing that's painful to Apple.
0:55:28Just fixing the keyboard is a lot.
0:55:30- Oh yeah.
0:55:31- That is, that's gonna really, really help
0:55:34in ways that it might make you feel better
0:55:36about the fact that the ports haven't changed.
0:55:38'Cause you're like, well, the ports annoy me
0:55:41but I've already got my dongles.
0:55:42The screen is bigger and nicer.
0:55:44And every time I type on a key, it makes the key,
0:55:46it makes the character that it's supposed to make.
0:55:48And that will go a long way
0:55:50to making everybody a lot less better.
0:55:52I say as someone who has just recently
0:55:54tried to pull down a Bluetooth keyboard from the attic
0:55:57because my space bar on my work laptop is going wonky
0:56:00and I don't want to be without it
0:56:02long enough to get it replaced.
0:56:03So I am using a second keyboard on my MacBook Pro.
0:56:06- You know, it's only a small percentage of customers, John.
0:56:08- God, it's killing me.
0:56:08Like, this--
0:56:09- It's a small percentage, it's just everybody we know.
0:56:11(laughing)
0:56:13- I just feel like I can,
0:56:15and now I know why people pry the keycaps off
0:56:17because I so want to pry it.
0:56:18Because you just feel it, you're like, there's a crumb.
0:56:20I can feel it under my thumb.
0:56:22Get out!
0:56:24The key doesn't go down all the way.
0:56:25And the worst part is, if I bang it,
0:56:28every four bangs on the space bar with my thumb,
0:56:31it'll make a space.
0:56:32So it's just enough to make, like, you can't,
0:56:34I can use it, I don't have to copy and paste the space.
0:56:38Oh, it's the worst.
0:56:39And then I took out my ancient Bluetooth Apple keyboard
0:56:42with the, it takes the AA batteries.
0:56:45And those keys have so much travel.
0:56:49- Yep.
0:56:49- It's like, I feel like I'm--
0:56:50- It feels like a Model M by comparison.
0:56:52- Yeah, I think they're supposed to,
0:56:54basically I think they're the same key mechanisms
0:56:56as the one that I'm using on my Mac Pro right now.
0:56:58Like I have the Apple Extended.
0:56:59I think they're the same key mechanisms,
0:57:01but I guess the Bluetooth one isn't sort of like broken in
0:57:04and it feels so much stiffer.
0:57:06And it makes me realize, like Casey, I think,
0:57:09I actually have come around to liking
0:57:12the butterfly key mechanism, limited travel and all,
0:57:15in the context of a laptop.
0:57:16- I thought we were friends.
0:57:17- Maybe not that extreme.
0:57:18Like I could use a little bit more travel.
0:57:19I still hate the key layout
0:57:21and I still hate the reliability, right?
0:57:22But I don't mind the lower travel clicky keys
0:57:26in a laptop context.
0:57:28I probably wouldn't want to use it on a desktop,
0:57:29but I don't mind it.
0:57:30So like I'm all primed to really like the key mechanism
0:57:35in this new laptop, even as I continue
0:57:37to dislike the key layout.
0:57:38- Yeah, generally speaking,
0:57:41I really do like my MacBook Adorable.
0:57:44It annoys me from time to time.
0:57:46There are a few simple ways it could be
0:57:49an almost perfect computer.
0:57:51I don't think I have nearly the hatred
0:57:53that either of you do for the modern Apple laptops,
0:57:57but I've never owned a Touch Bar laptop.
0:58:00I've never had the occasion to.
0:58:01I've never really used one
0:58:02for more than a few minutes at a time.
0:58:04And I haven't yet been really catastrophically burned
0:58:09by the keyboard.
0:58:10I've only been annoyed by it,
0:58:12but I don't debate that--
0:58:14- You've had failures all the time.
0:58:16- But it's always fixed--
0:58:17- Things are fixed by compressed air though.
0:58:18- Exactly.
0:58:19I don't get access to his dad's air compressor
0:58:21or something 'cause my little canned air
0:58:23is not doing the job on this space bar.
0:58:24And by the way, the MacBook Air, the one I actually own,
0:58:27that one does two spaces.
0:58:29For the longest time when I was like helping my kids
0:58:31like proofread their little essays for school,
0:58:32I'm like, why are you putting two spaces
0:58:33in the middle of sentences?
0:58:34They're like, the keyboard just does that.
0:58:36I tried it and they're right.
0:58:38They're right, the keyboard does just do that.
0:58:39So I guess it's better than not being able to make a space.
0:58:41But yeah, when they write all their papers up
0:58:43in Google Docs on the quote unquote homework laptop,
0:58:47sometimes they get double spaces between words
0:58:49just because they hit the space bar once and two come out.
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1:00:00(upbeat music)
1:00:02- There's some new Google stuff, I guess.
1:00:06Cool? - Great.
1:00:07- Do I care?
1:00:08- Do any of us use any of these products?
1:00:10- So I thought there was,
1:00:11I watch most of the Google thing as I usually do.
1:00:14And I put a picture in our notes document here.
1:00:18We'll link to the TechCrunch story this picture comes from.
1:00:20It's a Google PR picture they gave out to everybody.
1:00:23And it got me thinking, we've talked about Microsoft
1:00:26and their various hardware products
1:00:28in a couple of recent shows and here's Google.
1:00:29Their announcement was like they have a new,
1:00:32it's about their new phones.
1:00:33They have a bunch of AirPod ripoff things.
1:00:36They're little wireless earbuds that come in a little case.
1:00:40They've got a bunch of HomePod looking things
1:00:43or sort of fabric colored cylinders that are, you know,
1:00:46augmenting their existing Google Home line.
1:00:48They've combined their Wi-Fi routers
1:00:50into the Google Home thing.
1:00:52So the thing that you talk to is also your router,
1:00:54which is a smart idea that Apple should have done
1:00:57if they didn't get out of the Wi-Fi router business.
1:00:59We talked about it a lot when we were discussing them
1:01:01getting out of the business.
1:01:01Like, hey, you want to have things in the house
1:01:04to listen to you.
1:01:05That's a great place to put your router.
1:01:07And of course they have the Google Stadia controller,
1:01:10you know, streaming gaming thing.
1:01:12And they have this little product shop
1:01:13that shows everything together.
1:01:15And if you look at Amazon, Google, and Apple,
1:01:19three big tech companies,
1:01:21all of them can make a picture like this.
1:01:25Pretty much.
1:01:27I mean, Amazon doesn't have a laptop,
1:01:28but they do have, still have those Fire tablets, right?
1:01:32Do they still make those tablets?
1:01:32I forget.
1:01:33- Yeah, they cost like nothing.
1:01:34They're like 30 bucks now.
1:01:36- Anyway, and I guess Amazon did have the phone
1:01:39but didn't have it, but like cylinders that you can talk to
1:01:42and fun colors covered with fabric, wifi routers,
1:01:46Amazon's got Eero now, right?
1:01:47Earbuds, Amazon even has like a ring that you can talk to,
1:01:51like a literal ring for your fingers.
1:01:53Phone, tablets, gaming controller things,
1:01:57TV connected boxes.
1:01:59Like it seems like those, not that that's table stakes,
1:02:03but like every large tech company,
1:02:05there aren't many of them,
1:02:06but the big three or four big temp companies
1:02:08are all looking at what the other tech companies are doing
1:02:10and like, we should make earbuds.
1:02:12We should have a voice assistant.
1:02:13We should have cylinders that are in your house.
1:02:15We should have a home automation.
1:02:17We should have a thing that plays music.
1:02:18We should have a streaming service.
1:02:20And then you have the competition,
1:02:22similarity in services that they all make.
1:02:24And in particular, this image from Google,
1:02:27all of them seem to be taking the aesthetic from Apple,
1:02:30which is not new.
1:02:31Apple has sort of led in design.
1:02:33Whatever Apple decides they're going to do,
1:02:35you'll see lots of competitors copying,
1:02:38which at many times like, well, what do you expect?
1:02:41That's obviously the way things should be,
1:02:43but it's only like that in hindsight.
1:02:45It was not obvious that cell phones
1:02:47should look like the iPhone until the iPhone came.
1:02:49Cell phones looked nothing like the iPhone before.
1:02:50Even complete screen iPhones,
1:02:52like Nokia had like phones that were all screen.
1:02:55They did not look and work like the iPhone,
1:02:57but after the iPhone,
1:02:58every freaking phone looks like an iPhone, right?
1:03:01And down to the aesthetic.
1:03:02Laptops being aluminum and glass
1:03:06and sort of an unfinished aluminum appearance,
1:03:07swept across the industry.
1:03:09And now I'm not sure if Apple was in the lead here
1:03:11or following, but there's a similar trend for cylinders.
1:03:14Obviously Amazon being the leader in the having cylinders
1:03:17that you talk to in your house,
1:03:18but the design aesthetic of sort of rounded
1:03:20marshmallow fabric covered things,
1:03:22whoever did that first, that is now everywhere.
1:03:26Amazon cylinders are fabric covered.
1:03:28Google's are practically a little miniature
1:03:30HomePod marshmallows.
1:03:32And they have the Google Home Mini
1:03:33because they want them to look nice.
1:03:35They don't want them to look too techie,
1:03:36but they also don't want them to look like furniture,
1:03:37like they're not made of shag carpet.
1:03:40There is a sameness, a similar,
1:03:42and then the AirPods, a great example.
1:03:44There were wireless earbuds before the AirPods
1:03:46and there were gonna be wireless earbuds after them,
1:03:48but there's no way you can look at this Google thing
1:03:50and say, oh, that's their AirPod competitor.
1:03:52Isn't it obvious that you'd have a little case
1:03:55with the lid that popped?
1:03:55No, that's not obvious.
1:03:56Look at all the ones that came out before AirPods.
1:03:58They didn't work or look like that.
1:03:59Even if they had a little charging case,
1:04:01it wasn't exactly like that.
1:04:03But in a post AirPod world,
1:04:05they all have to be exactly like that.
1:04:07Now, I'm not saying all this to say,
1:04:09oh, look, everyone copies Apple,
1:04:10although, again, I feel like they do really set
1:04:12the direction for the industry.
1:04:14But what it made me think was these three other companies
1:04:18that I'm talking about,
1:04:19and by the way, I'm gonna give Microsoft a break here
1:04:20because Microsoft actually has its own aesthetic.
1:04:23I think it's not as nice an aesthetic,
1:04:26but they have their own thing.
1:04:28Their surface--
1:04:29- I think it's like cubicle wall.
1:04:31- I mean, there's a little bit of sameness.
1:04:34Like if you look at Microsoft's keyboards,
1:04:36that is inspired by Apple's keyboards very much,
1:04:39but they do have their own sort of design aesthetic
1:04:41for their big Surface Pro thing
1:04:43and for their Surface things with the kickstands.
1:04:45They have a little bit of their own thing.
1:04:47They're influenced by the fashion
1:04:48of the rest of the industry,
1:04:49but they are the most innovative
1:04:51and the most original, I feel like.
1:04:53So they definitely deserve credit for that.
1:04:54But here's where, you know,
1:04:58the episode where we're bashing an Apple,
1:04:59but it's like, this is not a thing to bash an Apple about,
1:05:01but it's a thing that I think about.
1:05:03All those other companies have some other big thing
1:05:08that they do that they're known for.
1:05:10Google is Google search.
1:05:12Like when you say Google, people think of search.
1:05:16It's a verb meaning to search.
1:05:19Amazon is a store where you buy stuff online.
1:05:22If you say Amazon or amazon.com,
1:05:24you're like, oh, that's where I order stuff.
1:05:25Physical goods come to my house.
1:05:28Microsoft is Windows and Office.
1:05:30If you say Microsoft, people think of the Microsoft PC,
1:05:32Microsoft Windows, Microsoft Office, Microsoft Word.
1:05:36That's what those companies were built around.
1:05:38All of those companies can arrange a little hardware picture
1:05:42of fabric covered marshmallows and AirPods
1:05:45and all this other stuff like this,
1:05:47but that's not their main business.
1:05:50Google is a search company that also makes practically
1:05:53everything that Apple makes.
1:05:55Amazon is an online store that also makes practically
1:05:58everything that Apple makes.
1:05:59And Microsoft is this huge software behemoth
1:06:02that also happens to make everything Apple makes.
1:06:05Apple makes all this stuff and that's their one big thing.
1:06:10They don't have a Google search.
1:06:12They don't have an Amazon store.
1:06:13They don't have a Microsoft.
1:06:15They have the iPhone, the Mac, and to a lesser extent,
1:06:18the HomePod, the Apple TV, the AirPods.
1:06:22That is Apple's thing.
1:06:25And in many ways, that's part of why the expectations
1:06:29for all the stuff that Apple does are higher,
1:06:31I mean, partially because we're big Apple fans
1:06:34and we're in that ecosystem and that's the stuff we buy
1:06:36and prefer because of their software and everything,
1:06:38but also because if Apple doesn't do all that stuff better
1:06:43than everyone else, that's the whole ballgame.
1:06:46As much as they try to expand down to services
1:06:48and Apple has a thing that you can pay for news
1:06:50and they have a thing where you can pay for TV services
1:06:52and they're trying to change that,
1:06:54it's going to be very difficult for Apple ever
1:06:56to not be the company that makes hardware,
1:06:59software, synergize, gadgets, and is expected
1:07:03to lead the industry in those things.
1:07:05And for the most part, I feel like they do.
1:07:07They made the iPhone first.
1:07:08They made the AirPods.
1:07:10They are the leaders in this realm,
1:07:14which is why I think it's so important for Apple
1:07:16to keep the pedal to the metal
1:07:19when it comes to those innovations.
1:07:20And yes, to be working on the next big thing,
1:07:22whether it be AR or a car they're going to make
1:07:24or whatever the hell it is,
1:07:25because they don't have sort of their bread and butter
1:07:28to fall back on.
1:07:29Apple did get into Maps and they're doing an impressive job,
1:07:32but there's like, Apple is not challenging Google
1:07:34for search.
1:07:35They're not challenging Amazon for retail stores.
1:07:37And iWork is not challenging office and exchange
1:07:41for that software world.
1:07:43Arguably, they're kind of challenging Windows still
1:07:45in the sort of desktop PC space,
1:07:47but that space matters less and less.
1:07:49So anyway, that's just what I was thinking about.
1:07:52That, you know, when other companies have events like this,
1:07:55it's almost like they're saying,
1:07:57we are Google and also Apple,
1:07:59we can do everything you can do.
1:08:01Almost as good, sometimes better, sometimes worse.
1:08:03But like, this isn't even our main business.
1:08:05We're Google, man.
1:08:06We're Amazon, we're Microsoft.
1:08:07And also we do everything you do,
1:08:09but backwards and in heels.
1:08:11(laughing)
1:08:13- What's Fred Astaire and who?
1:08:15- Ginger Rogers. - Ginger Rogers, okay.
1:08:18Everything you can do, I can do better.
1:08:20I hear you.
1:08:20I never thought of it that way, actually, Jon,
1:08:22but you make an excellent point.
1:08:23And I don't know.
1:08:26- Any time that the three of us are negative about Apple,
1:08:30we always get at least a handful of people
1:08:32complaining about our complaining.
1:08:34And I think sometimes that's fair.
1:08:35Sometimes I think the three of us
1:08:36can get wrapped around the axle about certain issues
1:08:39at keyboards and it can be--
1:08:41- They're not fixed yet.
1:08:42Once they fix them, we'll stop complaining.
1:08:44- Fair.
1:08:45- The beatings will continue until keyboards improve.
1:08:47(laughing)
1:08:49- Yep, oh gosh.
1:08:51But anyways, I don't know.
1:08:54There's nothing so perfect that it cannot be complained about
1:08:56and it's true.
1:08:58And beyond that, I do think that all in all,
1:09:01I am really pleased with the Apple stuff that's in my life.
1:09:08There are things about the Apple stuff in my life
1:09:10that really annoys me, especially when I consider
1:09:13my work life rather than my personal life.
1:09:16The lack of documentation is frustrating
1:09:18to the point of being obnoxious.
1:09:21The beta season was difficult.
1:09:24If I was a developer for the Mac,
1:09:26the Catalina release just dropping out of the blue
1:09:29would be infuriating.
1:09:30But especially now that I've taken the arguably
1:09:35shouldn't be necessary nuclear step of having blown away
1:09:38to my two computers and set them up from scratch,
1:09:43I've actually been really pleased.
1:09:44Like I used Sidecar for the first time
1:09:47for an extended period of time last week
1:09:50and it worked really, really well.
1:09:53And Catalina on my MacBook, which granted,
1:09:55I haven't been pushing that hard,
1:09:57but Catalina has been fine for the most part.
1:10:00There's things that annoy me.
1:10:01I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's been fine.
1:10:03And my iMac, now that it seems to be working,
1:10:06at least for the next 10 minutes,
1:10:08it is reminding me how great a computer this is.
1:10:11I mean, I cannot remember the last time I bought a computer.
1:10:14And again, I bought this in January of 2016.
1:10:16That is almost four years ago now.
1:10:19And for any normal human whose name is not John Syracuse,
1:10:22four years for a single computer is a long time,
1:10:25especially for an all-in-one computer
1:10:27where the only thing I can change is the RAM.
1:10:30And this thing has been working really, really well.
1:10:33It's had its bumps for sure,
1:10:34but it's been working really, really well.
1:10:35And I can't say that I really long for more speed.
1:10:40I'm sure I would like more speed,
1:10:41but I don't feel like I'm constrained by this iMac
1:10:45that's nearly four years old.
1:10:47And my iPad Pro, as much as iOS does annoy me
1:10:50from time to time when I'm trying to use it
1:10:53for quote-unquote real work,
1:10:55by and large, this is a phenomenal computer.
1:10:58And oh my goodness, I do not have enough good things to say
1:11:01about my poor shadow, the Dye 11 Pro.
1:11:04My iPhone is so phenomenally good.
1:11:06And yes, the software does let it down,
1:11:08especially lately, kind of often.
1:11:10But by and large, the things that these devices
1:11:13allow me to do, what was the phrase,
1:11:16like bicycles for the mind or whatever?
1:11:18The thing that these devices allow me to do
1:11:20really is incredible.
1:11:21And yes, the three of us, myself included,
1:11:24can get a little wrapped around the axle
1:11:25about things that upset us,
1:11:27but it's because we love them so darn much.
1:11:30And it's so frustrating to see what we perceive
1:11:33to be fixable problems not fixed.
1:11:35But it is worth remembering for all of us,
1:11:37myself very much included,
1:11:39how unbelievably cool and amazing these devices are.
1:11:42And it's a miracle that any of them work
1:11:44the way that they do, even half as well as they do.
1:11:48- Yeah, and as I pointed out,
1:11:49I was emphasizing how important it is
1:11:51for Apple to be the best.
1:11:52But I started that whole segment off
1:11:53by saying how everyone else does what Apple does,
1:11:57down to the design details and the overall aesthetic.
1:12:00Like, I feel like Apple is still leading
1:12:01in many of these areas.
1:12:03It's just that it occurred to me,
1:12:05they have to lead in those areas,
1:12:06'cause that is their bread and butter.
1:12:08If they're not the best at that,
1:12:10then why do they even exist?
1:12:11So I think they are the best at many of those things.
1:12:14And some other company didn't come up with the Mac
1:12:18and the iPhone and the iPad, right?
1:12:20It was an iOS in general.
1:12:22And Cocoa and Objective-C and all the stuff
1:12:24that came from Next that is now attributed to Apple
1:12:26and yada, yada, yada.
1:12:28So it's like, they are leading those areas
1:12:31in the same way that Microsoft may have Bing,
1:12:33but Google is Google, you know what I mean?
1:12:36It's just that it's so much more important for them.
1:12:39And again, coming up with a hard discussion
1:12:40about the laptops, as they may think laptops are de-emphasized
1:12:45and not as important in the larger scheme of things,
1:12:48but it's one of the things that they're known for.
1:12:51It's part of their equivalent of Google search
1:12:53or Amazon store.
1:12:54They need to execute well.
1:12:55I feel like they've realized that in the desktop Mac space
1:12:59and have sort of regrouped there
1:13:00and are coming out with computers that are better
1:13:03than the ones that are before.
1:13:04And as Marco pointed out,
1:13:05they're doing really well in the iPad space.
1:13:08And as I think we all talked about in the show,
1:13:11every year the iPhones are really good.
1:13:13Like they're really good iPhones, right?
1:13:15It's just those darn laptops,
1:13:16which are a small part of their business,
1:13:18but it's a part of their business that we all use
1:13:20and so we complain about it a lot.
1:13:22- It's funny, like when you brought up this topic
1:13:24about how all these tech giants basically all kind of
1:13:27do everything now, or at least all the same,
1:13:30they all kind of do the same things.
1:13:32I actually didn't think of any Apple complaints
1:13:34for this one moment.
1:13:35Instead, like this has been kind of a thing
1:13:38I've been meaning to talk about for a while of like,
1:13:41yeah, it seems like Google and Amazon and Microsoft
1:13:44and Apple and occasionally Facebook
1:13:47are all doing a lot of the same things.
1:13:50But I see that not necessarily as like a,
1:13:54hey, Apple should be better.
1:13:55I see it as a tremendous waste of collective industry effort
1:14:00and resources and talent.
1:14:02- It's called competition, Marco.
1:14:04You want to designate a winner?
1:14:06- What it is, I think is like,
1:14:09it seems like in the last, I don't know,
1:14:11five to 10 years maybe,
1:14:14I don't know if this is maybe like a new thing
1:14:17or if I just didn't see it before
1:14:19or if the names were different before,
1:14:21but like it seems like every tech company
1:14:24has to have everything now.
1:14:26They all have to have a complete ecosystem.
1:14:28And part of it, I guess, is like the threat
1:14:31that like if they don't do their own complete ecosystem,
1:14:33then dominant player X is gonna be able to lock them out
1:14:38of the market or something.
1:14:39And I get that. - So you get Google Maps
1:14:41and Apple Maps, like yeah,
1:14:43'cause if you don't have your own thing,
1:14:45then you are at the mercy of the company
1:14:47that does do that thing.
1:14:48- Right, and see also the entire reason Android exists.
1:14:51Like it's literally 'cause like Google didn't want
1:14:54their services locked out of a world that had Apple
1:14:58and at the time theoretically Microsoft
1:15:00controlling all of mobile, right?
1:15:02And like, or Blackberry, whatever, you know.
1:15:04So like it seems like the tech companies now
1:15:07all have to have everything
1:15:08because everything is so damn locked down and proprietary
1:15:13and everything is a locked down ecosystem.
1:15:18From the voice assistants to the platforms
1:15:21to the services behind them all,
1:15:23you know, all these things,
1:15:24everything is so proprietary and locked down.
1:15:27And so it does create this need and this incentive
1:15:31for like every tech giant to almost defensively
1:15:35create their own versions of everything, right?
1:15:38And I feel like it's so much of a mediocre waste of,
1:15:43so much of tech's immense resources and the talents
1:15:52and the engineering time and the design time
1:15:54of all these big companies.
1:15:56Like we're all just churning and we're all just like,
1:15:59you know, grinding our gears against these wasteful efforts
1:16:03to fight one walled garden against another
1:16:06in massive ways with massive resources behind it.
1:16:09What if we were solving better problems?
1:16:13Like what if we weren't all trying to make
1:16:16the same three product categories or whatever?
1:16:21- It's more than three.
1:16:22- Yeah, you're right I guess.
1:16:23But like I don't know, part of this just feels
1:16:25incredibly wasteful and just of like
1:16:29the world's resources in a way, you know?
1:16:32- Well it was worse back when it was just one company.
1:16:36When Microsoft was dominant to the degree
1:16:38that like younger people probably don't have a visceral sense
1:16:43of exactly how dominant Microsoft was in the day.
1:16:45Imagine if everything you said was true
1:16:47but there was literally only one company.
1:16:49There was like one company and then like a tiny little NAT
1:16:53that some weird nerds liked.
1:16:55And even smaller NAT on that NAT.
1:16:57That was like the Mac and like Amiga or whatever they were.
1:17:00And Linux, like just Microsoft was so dominant.
1:17:03Now today we have, I named three companies,
1:17:05like we have these big tech companies
1:17:06and yeah they are all doing the same things
1:17:08and are all sort of competing with each other
1:17:10but I often think, you know, thank God for Google.
1:17:14'Cause if it was just Apple or just Microsoft
1:17:16or just Google, they would still all be doing
1:17:19the same things 'cause they're sort of financial synergies
1:17:21to make that happen.
1:17:22Like they would find their way to all the same stuff.
1:17:24They'd all be selling media, they'd all have services,
1:17:26they'd all have search and maps and assistants
1:17:29and phones and laptops, right?
1:17:31But if it was just one company,
1:17:32that's what it felt like in the Microsoft time
1:17:33that you had like no choice.
1:17:35Like you could use the Mac which was weird
1:17:36and you weren't allowed to use at work
1:17:38and didn't have any software.
1:17:40Or you could join the real world and use Microsoft
1:17:42which is what everybody used.
1:17:43And like in most sort of sci-fi dystopias
1:17:47or like bad Black Mirror episodes or whatever,
1:17:49that's always the way it is.
1:17:50There's always like one company,
1:17:51whether it's like MomCo or whatever from Futurama
1:17:54or just like the big company that controls everything.
1:17:56And there's just one of them.
1:17:58Like very rarely are there three or four massively power,
1:18:02you know, sort of equally large financially successful,
1:18:05powerful companies competing.
1:18:06It's always like, oh, dystopias,
1:18:08all of your appliances from this company
1:18:10and all your computers are from this company
1:18:12and your car is from this company and you work at the,
1:18:14like that's worse, right?
1:18:18The duplication of effort, I kind of understand that.
1:18:20Like we've talked about this,
1:18:21I think speaking of Apple Maps,
1:18:23back when we were talking about Apple Maps,
1:18:24like the brief moment in time where it looked like,
1:18:27you know, Apple was, you know, Microsoft was fading.
1:18:31So that dark time was ending.
1:18:33Apple was rising and we all liked that
1:18:36'cause we liked Apple.
1:18:38And there was these other companies that did their things.
1:18:40You know, it's the Amazon that sold your stuff
1:18:42and you had Google that had search.
1:18:43You remember the brief moment, it's like, yeah,
1:18:44it'll be like Apple will make like the hardware in the OS
1:18:48and it'll tie in with Google services, like Google Maps,
1:18:51'cause their search and maps are really good
1:18:52and we'll get the best of everybody.
1:18:54- Yeah. - You know,
1:18:55Eric Schmidt is on Apple's board
1:18:56and we'll all work together and that's not the way.
1:19:00That's not the way competition works.
1:19:02Like the sort of synergy where each company would be like,
1:19:04you stay in your lane and I stay in my lane
1:19:06and we'll work together.
1:19:09You know, you'll have this section in the market
1:19:10and we'll have that section
1:19:11and we'll make a combination product
1:19:13that's the best of all possible worlds.
1:19:15That's not the way things work
1:19:17and probably not the way they should work.
1:19:19But we had a glimpse of that and it seemed like,
1:19:21boy, these companies would just sort of stay pigeonholed
1:19:24into the things that they seem to be good at right now.
1:19:27But realistically, we wouldn't want that to happen either.
1:19:30We do want every company trying to be all things
1:19:32to all people because some of them will do
1:19:36this kind of product better than other ones
1:19:37and we need them all to exist and keep trying
1:19:39so that we have some kind of choice.
1:19:40Now, Marco's larger point about Walt Gardens
1:19:43is the real problem is that you can't really mix
1:19:44and match that easily, but you can mix and match
1:19:47a little bit.
1:19:48Like, I think we're probably the worst it's ever been
1:19:52in terms of mixing and matching,
1:19:53but I have Google cylinders in the house that I talk to,
1:19:57but I'm otherwise totally in on the Apple thing,
1:20:00but I have Google stuff attached to my TV,
1:20:01but I also have a TiVo attached to my TV,
1:20:03but I also have Apple TV attached to my television.
1:20:06There are, and they all use the same internet connection
1:20:09and the same web browser engine thanks to Apple
1:20:13across many of the platforms.
1:20:14So it's not a complete dystopia,
1:20:17but to the extent that these ecosystems try to
1:20:21completely wall us off from each other,
1:20:24I think consumers rebel against that.
1:20:25And that's why I subscribe to Hulu and Apple TV Plus
1:20:29and also Netflix.
1:20:30And those are all like deadly competitors
1:20:32in the video streaming market,
1:20:33but there's nothing stopping me from having all of them.
1:20:35Anything that did stop me from having all of them
1:20:38would be frowned upon by consumers and wouldn't do well.
1:20:42Like if you bought a Sony television
1:20:44and you couldn't watch Netflix,
1:20:46or even if you bought a Sony television
1:20:47and you couldn't watch Hulu,
1:20:48or you couldn't watch Apple TV Plus, that's not gonna fly.
1:20:51Sony as a television maker needs to make sure
1:20:53that you can see all of those things on it.
1:20:55In fact, they build in half those things
1:20:56inside the television set,
1:20:57let alone like the boxes that connect to it.
1:20:59So I'm for the most part optimistic
1:21:02coming from the dark time of Microsoft,
1:21:04which is sort of my formative tech dystopia is Microsoft.
1:21:09Now and forever will be.
1:21:11Maybe kids today, their formative tech dystopia
1:21:13is like the closed ecosystem of Apple or something.
1:21:17Or I mean, I suppose Facebook is all of our tech dystopia,
1:21:20but I'm mostly just sectioning them off
1:21:23in the sort of pit of despair that is social media,
1:21:27along with Twitter.
1:21:28- Yeah, I mean we can all agree that of all these companies,
1:21:30Facebook is definitely the worst.
1:21:32- Yes, obviously, sure.
1:21:33Easy answer.
1:21:35But yeah, and Facebook doesn't make,
1:21:38I mean, doesn't make any of these products successfully.
1:21:41Do they make cylinders that you talk to?
1:21:42I think they have some weird thing that you talk to,
1:21:44but I think people are wisely staying away from that.
1:21:46- I believe it's like a camera you put in your underwear,
1:21:48something like that.
1:21:49You can trust them, don't worry.
1:21:50- That sounds right, yeah.
1:21:52- Right, it's a surveillance camera for your bathroom.
1:21:54Didn't they make a phone at some point?
1:21:56- Well, they only put their software on a phone.
1:21:59Nobody wanted it.
1:22:00- Yeah, and I don't know if they make earbuds,
1:22:02but I'm assuming they would track you and film video
1:22:04and send advertisements to you.
1:22:06Anyway, they seem incapable of fielding
1:22:11the same suite of things.
1:22:12They're content to merely control
1:22:14the political direction of the world and all of our lives.
1:22:17- Boy, that got intense.
1:22:20All right, let's do some Ask ATP and lighten things up.
1:22:22Tom Zosh writes, "When considering Mac processor options
1:22:26for a new Mac purchase, how can I tell
1:22:28if I would benefit most from higher single core
1:22:30or multi-core performance?"
1:22:31John, what do you think about that?
1:22:33- I put this question there 'cause it sounds like
1:22:35if you're a tech nerd, experienced computer user,
1:22:38listening to this show, you're like,
1:22:39"Well, what a dumb question."
1:22:41Of course, you can tell if your app's been
1:22:43over multiple cores if the app uses multiple cores,
1:22:46but it's not a dumb question.
1:22:47It's not like a thing you sense mentally.
1:22:49You just know which application.
1:22:52There's an answer, and the answer is out of the box on a Mac
1:22:55is if you open Activity Monitor and bring up
1:22:57the CPU graph thingy that shows a bunch of little bar graphs
1:23:01for your CPU usage, and then do a thing
1:23:04that takes a long time in the application
1:23:06that you're interested in, and if you see all the bars
1:23:08go up while you're waiting for the thing
1:23:10that takes a long time, that application uses all your cores.
1:23:14So if you get something with more cores,
1:23:16there's a very high chance that if you add
1:23:18a couple more cores, it will take less time
1:23:20and it will use them.
1:23:21Not a guarantee because it is possible
1:23:22a badly written program could use like
1:23:25a certain number of your cores, but not all of them.
1:23:26Games are a lot like that.
1:23:27Sometimes if you add more cores,
1:23:28games don't take advantage of them, so beware.
1:23:31But that's the tool you need.
1:23:32You wanna use Activity Monitor,
1:23:33you wanna look at the CPU graph,
1:23:34and you wanna look at those little bars.
1:23:36If only one of the bars goes up all the way
1:23:38and the rest of the bars stay down,
1:23:40getting more cores won't help that program.
1:23:42So that's how you tell.
1:23:44- And it's also, I mean, there's a lot of complexities
1:23:46to this in reality, but, you know,
1:23:48so John's advice is good if it is mostly multi-core.
1:23:52And the good news is, if it's mostly single-core,
1:23:55single-core performance across Apple's entire Mac lineup
1:24:00doesn't vary as much as you think it might.
1:24:02- It's almost as good as their phone.
1:24:03- Yeah. (laughs)
1:24:06- Wow.
1:24:06- Brutal. - It'll never get old
1:24:08until they come out with our Macs.
1:24:09I'm gonna just put that in every show.
1:24:12- But yeah, so like, if you actually look at things
1:24:14like Geekbench and look at like single-core benchmarks,
1:24:17there are a few complicating factors here,
1:24:19like, you know, how long can something
1:24:21boost at maximum speed and everything.
1:24:22But for the most part, single-core performance
1:24:25within a certain generation, like year-wise,
1:24:29of Intel's processors doesn't change
1:24:32that much between the products.
1:24:33Like, yeah, there are differences,
1:24:34but they're smaller than you think.
1:24:35They're smaller than the initial
1:24:37advertised clock speeds would suggest.
1:24:40There actually is not, I've said this before,
1:24:42there is not as much variation between the processor options
1:24:46that you have, like, as upgrades,
1:24:48or like, you know, as built-to-order customizations,
1:24:50for a certain product line, as you might think.
1:24:53You might have, like a, you know, for a given laptop, say,
1:24:56there might be a $300 option that'll get you a processor
1:25:00that has a higher clock speed than the one
1:25:02that comes stock on that model.
1:25:05But that usually is not a great use of that money.
1:25:07Usually, if you actually look at the benchmarks,
1:25:10because of things like Turbo Boost
1:25:11and thermal limits and everything,
1:25:13it actually doesn't usually perform
1:25:15as much better as you would think.
1:25:16Usually, for that $300-ish upgrade,
1:25:19if you're getting something like 10% more performance,
1:25:21maybe at most, it often is not very big.
1:25:24And so, if you're trying to figure out
1:25:26that kind of processor choice,
1:25:29usually you can just stick with the base processor.
1:25:32In most of the Mac families,
1:25:35if you just stick with the base that it comes with,
1:25:37or maybe do one small upgrade
1:25:39to maybe go from like the i5 to the i7,
1:25:43you know, you will get some value out of that,
1:25:45but if you're trying to figure out, like,
1:25:47where to allocate those funds to best spend them,
1:25:50spend them on like a larger SSD.
1:25:52And you'll notice that more than you'll notice,
1:25:54like the extra 5% or 10% on the processor.
1:25:57- Yeah, I agree with that wholeheartedly.
1:25:59Kenny Long writes, "I'm buying a new car
1:26:02and was looking forward to finally getting CarPlay,
1:26:04but learned that most all models are not wireless.
1:26:07Is plugging in every time as annoying as it sounds
1:26:09any worthwhile workarounds?"
1:26:10Let me start by saying worthwhile workarounds,
1:26:12none that I'm aware of and I don't expect there to ever be.
1:26:15With regard to plugging in,
1:26:17is plugging in every time as annoying as it sounds?
1:26:19Kinda.
1:26:20In my experience, and I typically,
1:26:23most of my car trips are five miles or less,
1:26:25and I live in a sane place,
1:26:27so five miles or less means like, you know,
1:26:2810 minutes or less.
1:26:30And because of that,
1:26:32I almost never plug in my phone to the car.
1:26:35I usually use Bluetooth to listen to like Overcast
1:26:37or something like that.
1:26:38The occasions that would cause me to plug in
1:26:40are if I'm in the middle of a text message conversation
1:26:43and want to continue it,
1:26:44I will do that verbally using the assistant.
1:26:47I almost said her name.
1:26:49And I will do that.
1:26:50That is much easier to do via CarPlay.
1:26:52If I'm going somewhere I don't know where I'm going,
1:26:54I will typically, I mean, my car does have navigation
1:26:57as does Aaron's, they both have CarPlay.
1:26:59I could plug in the address in the onboard navigation,
1:27:03but I typically find it just easier to use
1:27:06either Apple or Google or Waze on CarPlay.
1:27:10But generally speaking,
1:27:11I don't plug in unless I feel like I need it.
1:27:13And so I don't find it particularly egregious
1:27:16or difficult at all.
1:27:18I personally would not buy a car without CarPlay
1:27:21because I do feel like it's future-proofing,
1:27:23as I've said many times on the show,
1:27:24it's future-proofing that car
1:27:25because the car's navigation system
1:27:27is unlikely to get any better anytime soon.
1:27:29That is one of the advantages of owning a Tesla
1:27:32is that your software always gets better.
1:27:34Of course, I can't ask Marco about CarPlay
1:27:37because one of the big disadvantages of Tesla
1:27:39is that they refuse to acknowledge
1:27:40that CarPlay or Android Auto exist.
1:27:42I've understood that wireless CarPlay is amazing
1:27:47and I have not experienced it myself.
1:27:49The combination of wireless CarPlay and Qi charging
1:27:52sounds like just bliss on wheels,
1:27:54but again, that is not something
1:27:56I have experienced personally.
1:27:58Although I believe the Audi e-tron
1:28:00has both wireless charging and wireless CarPlay,
1:28:03if I'm not mistaken.
1:28:04So Marco, if you wanna buy an actually good electric car,
1:28:07you could consider that for your next ride.
1:28:08- Actually, Tiff's car has wireless CarPlay, rather.
1:28:12- Oh, that's right, I forgot about that.
1:28:13Yes, you're right.
1:28:14- I have used it zero times.
1:28:15And I'm pretty sure she has used it zero times.
1:28:18- But how often do you drive her car, though?
1:28:19- Almost never.
1:28:21- Well, okay, see, there you go.
1:28:22And John, you are on the same buying strategy for cars
1:28:26as you are computers, so I know this is irrelevant.
1:28:29- Except that I don't buy a computer
1:28:30that costs as much as a car.
1:28:32Well, I don't know how that works with a car.
1:28:33- You're about to.
1:28:34- I don't buy a car that costs as much as a house, Marco.
1:28:36- Yeah, there you go.
1:28:39So yeah, that's my two cents
1:28:40and I hope that's helpful, Kenny.
1:28:42- Speaking of, before we get to that one,
1:28:44speaking of Tiff's car, you know they don't make that anymore
1:28:46I don't know what she's gonna do when her lease is up.
1:28:48- Oh, is that right?
1:28:49- Yeah, I was looking at, we were trying to figure out,
1:28:51'cause we were looking at some kind of compact
1:28:54electric option for her to replace it anyway, so that's fine.
1:28:57But I was looking at the site and I was surprised.
1:28:59Are the GTs just gone?
1:29:00- Nope, no more GT model for 2020.
1:29:03- What happened?
1:29:04- Not enough people bought them.
1:29:06I mean, I don't see them, I see them hardly anywhere.
1:29:08When I do see them--
1:29:09- I see them around.
1:29:10- I do like a triple take, I'm like, what is that weird,
1:29:12oh, that's Tiff's BMW, like I do not see,
1:29:15I see tons of BMWs that do not see a lot of them also.
1:29:17I'm assuming she doesn't sell well, but yeah,
1:29:19not in the three or the five GT, I think they're all gone
1:29:23in BMW's model lineup from now on, so yeah.
1:29:26If you need any further encouragement
1:29:27to find some electric option for her, there you have it.
1:29:29She can't even get the same car again,
1:29:30unless you guys used.
1:29:32- But I mean, that might as well just buy out her lease.
1:29:34But yeah, we actually have to make a decision on that,
1:29:36like this month, it's kind of coming up quickly.
1:29:38- Oh, really?
1:29:39- Yeah, the lease is up in December,
1:29:41so anything that needs to be ordered,
1:29:42we need to get on that pretty quickly.
1:29:44- You could survive with this single car,
1:29:45I think it'll be okay.
1:29:46- That's one of the options we're looking at, actually.
1:29:49- All right, and then finally, Marco,
1:29:51you and I can just sign off and go to sleep now.
1:29:53Tobogranite would like to know things about Destiny.
1:29:58I don't even know what this means.
1:29:59Since Syracuse is not likely to ever do
1:30:00the Destiny podcast I'd so love,
1:30:02this is Tobogranite speaking, not me.
1:30:04Any thoughts on Shadowkeep, whatever that means,
1:30:07and what it means for the kind of game
1:30:08that Destiny is likely to become, Jon?
1:30:10- This is actually very interesting,
1:30:12and there could be a full podcast
1:30:13that even people who don't know or care anything
1:30:15about Destiny would be interested in,
1:30:17because the way games are financed and sold
1:30:21continues to change.
1:30:24We know, all three of us know about the whole mobile games
1:30:27and free to play and all those exploitive mechanics,
1:30:29sort of the dark side of that,
1:30:30and I think we mostly know about the good side
1:30:32of mobile games that we've all come to love
1:30:34and how those are sold and marketed
1:30:36and what the economic model of those look like.
1:30:38But in another section of the gaming industry,
1:30:42in the world of sort of AAA, as they're called,
1:30:44AAA console and PC games,
1:30:47the way they're sold and funded
1:30:51and how the ongoing development of those funded,
1:30:54it has been changing.
1:30:55There's some weird stuff out there
1:30:56that's sort of innovated in this area,
1:30:57like World of Warcraft,
1:30:58which is like a 15-year-old game at this point
1:31:00that charges people a subscription fee
1:31:02that sort of gets you to adopt it as a lifestyle,
1:31:05and as you know from talking to me all these years,
1:31:08Destiny is also kind of one of those games,
1:31:10but it's not a subscription model.
1:31:12I don't pay a monthly fee to play Destiny.
1:31:14I just, in theory, buy a game,
1:31:16and so Destiny came from a world
1:31:17where you'd buy a game for $60 and then play it,
1:31:20but they would wanna keep selling you content.
1:31:23You probably know it as DLC, downloadable content,
1:31:26from back in the day when you're getting a horse armor
1:31:28and stuff like that,
1:31:28but the current model that so many games follow
1:31:31is sort of either you buy a game upfront or not,
1:31:35but then continue to pay
1:31:36for sort of regularly scheduled content drops,
1:31:39which is such a sort of clinical phrase,
1:31:41but basically you'll keep playing the same game,
1:31:44and they have all sorts of mechanics
1:31:46that give you new things to play in the game
1:31:49and new things to accomplish,
1:31:50and you pay for them, but it's not a subscription.
1:31:53The new model is mostly,
1:31:55if you want to sit out this quote-unquote season,
1:31:57they actually call them seasons, don't play the season.
1:32:00Maybe you're playing some other game.
1:32:01Maybe you're not into it anymore,
1:32:02but if you come back to it,
1:32:03we wanna make it so that you don't feel
1:32:05like you've been left behind hopelessly.
1:32:07That was a problem Destiny had in many years
1:32:09is that if you weren't playing the game like a lifestyle,
1:32:12like it's your job, right,
1:32:13all your friends would get ahead of where you are,
1:32:15and you'd wanna get back into it,
1:32:17but you'd be so far behind them,
1:32:18and you couldn't catch up,
1:32:19and then you couldn't play the new content
1:32:20because you had to sort of be leveled
1:32:22and have all these items to play the new content,
1:32:25and you're like, "Well, that's not fair.
1:32:26"They should make it so anyone could jump in at any time,"
1:32:27but if you do that, it disincentivizes people to play,
1:32:30because you're like, "Well, if my friend
1:32:31"who hasn't played for six months can just jump right in
1:32:33"and be exactly where I was,
1:32:34"I don't feel like I have accomplished anything
1:32:36"in those six months.
1:32:37"I haven't earned these cool items
1:32:38"or got to experience this cool content."
1:32:40So it's a long way of saying that Shadowkeep
1:32:42and what Bungie's doing with Destiny, twofold.
1:32:45One, they got out of what apparently
1:32:47was not a very constructive relationship
1:32:49with their previous publisher Activision,
1:32:51and now they're on their own,
1:32:53which is good in that they get to sort of
1:32:55call their own shots without having to talk
1:32:56to some money people who make them make bad decisions
1:32:58about their game, but bad in that there's no money person
1:33:02dropping money on their heads to make the game.
1:33:03It's all on them.
1:33:04So they have to figure out a way to thread this needle.
1:33:08Make a game where you feel like your time investing
1:33:12is letting you accomplish something,
1:33:14where you spend the time and you get the good item
1:33:18and you level up, but also make it so that if you sit out
1:33:22a season or your friends sit out a season,
1:33:24that they can come back very quickly,
1:33:27but you don't also feel cheated
1:33:28by them sort of cutting in line or whatever,
1:33:30and it's very difficult balance,
1:33:32and they're working on that.
1:33:33And how much do I charge for each of these seasons,
1:33:35and what do you get in the season,
1:33:36and can you play for free?
1:33:38Like Destiny is free to download and play right now,
1:33:40but if you wanna get the good content,
1:33:43you have to pay something for it.
1:33:44And anyway, and avoiding pay-to-win mechanics,
1:33:47which is a whole big thing.
1:33:48Nobody likes a game where you can pay money
1:33:50and get a better item that lets you play the game better.
1:33:53So you can only charge people for essentially
1:33:55cosmetic items or things that don't actually
1:33:57affect the gameplay, and that's a difficult line to tread.
1:34:01Anyway, the final thing that I think is interesting
1:34:03in Shadowkeep is that the model Destiny had been following,
1:34:06which is, pay us money, we'll give you content,
1:34:09the game will expand, so on and so forth,
1:34:12can't continue like that forever,
1:34:14because what they would do is you'd get the game,
1:34:17then you'd get an expansion,
1:34:18then you get a second expansion,
1:34:19then you get a third expansion,
1:34:20then you get a fourth expansion.
1:34:21Eventually the game is A, huge,
1:34:23as in like hundreds of gigabytes on your hard drive,
1:34:26and B, it becomes too overwhelmingly large.
1:34:30Like you can't add content forever to the same game,
1:34:33I suppose unless you're World of Warcraft,
1:34:35without it becoming overwhelming
1:34:37to both new players and existing players.
1:34:39So with Shadowkeep, I think they finally said,
1:34:41we're going to put content out in a season,
1:34:44and when the season is over,
1:34:46some of that content will leave with the season,
1:34:48whether it be destinations or items
1:34:50that you can't get again or whatever,
1:34:52and that I think will keep a more manageable game size.
1:34:55Now Bungie is just beginning this new phase
1:34:59of their development, but I mean,
1:35:01you guys make fun of me for being into and playing Destiny,
1:35:04but I have to say that kind of like following a sports team,
1:35:08part of the fun of being into Destiny is like the meta game,
1:35:13like the people who get into like sports teams
1:35:15and learn about like the trades and who's the manager
1:35:17and what position people are in and the salary negotiations
1:35:21and who they pick in the draft.
1:35:22To many people, that is as much fun as the sports part,
1:35:25some to other people, it's even more fun.
1:35:27And in the world of Destiny,
1:35:29figuring out what Bungie is doing to design their game
1:35:34around the desires of their players
1:35:35and the need to make money
1:35:37and how they schedule their content drops
1:35:38and how things come out when and how that works financially
1:35:41is to me at least as interesting as the game itself.
1:35:44And I like the game as well.
1:35:45So I'm enjoying that aspect as always,
1:35:48I am enjoying that ongoing, I'm not gonna say struggle,
1:35:52but ongoing communication between Bungie and its players
1:35:56and the software they put out
1:35:58to try to make a symbiotic relationship
1:36:01where they give them, we give them money
1:36:03and they give us fun in a cycle
1:36:05that makes everybody feel good.
1:36:07Historically, that cycle has not been a smooth circle
1:36:10and has had jagged bumps all over it,
1:36:12but I do enjoy the process
1:36:14and I think it's fascinating from like a software perspective
1:36:16from a technology perspective, from a business perspective
1:36:19and from a gaming perspective.
1:36:21Thanks to our sponsors this week, Linode and DoorDash
1:36:25and we will see you next week.
1:36:27♪ Now the show is over ♪
1:36:32♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪
1:36:35♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪
1:36:37♪ Oh it was accidental ♪
1:36:40♪ John didn't do any research ♪
1:36:42♪ Marco and Casey wouldn't let him ♪
1:36:45♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪
1:36:48♪ Oh it was accidental ♪
1:36:51♪ And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM ♪
1:36:56♪ And if you're into Twitter ♪
1:36:59♪ You can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S ♪
1:37:04♪ So that's Casey, Liz, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M ♪
1:37:10♪ Auntie, Marco, R-M-N-S-I-R-A-C ♪
1:37:15♪ USA, Syracuse, it's accidental ♪
1:37:19♪ It's accidental ♪
1:37:20♪ They didn't mean to accidental ♪
1:37:24♪ Accidental ♪
1:37:25♪ Tech, podcast, so long ♪
1:37:28- So Marco, in the show, you mentioned
1:37:34that you have to replace Tif's Subaru Outback,
1:37:37the BMW 3GT, and you had mentioned
1:37:42that you were going to consider smaller electric cars.
1:37:47Tell me more about this.
1:37:49- I mean, it's a little early.
1:37:50First of all, why are they stopping making the GT?
1:37:53The 5GT was a monster, but the 3GT is a really good car.
1:37:58- It's weird looking and nobody buys it.
1:38:00I mean, I think that's the answer.
1:38:01They're not making manuals,
1:38:02they're not making the 3GT anymore.
1:38:04- Yeah, I guess, honestly, at this rate,
1:38:06we're lucky if any automaker is still making sedans.
1:38:11It seems like even that is an endangered species.
1:38:15- Ford's not making sedans anymore.
1:38:17I think GM's not making sedans.
1:38:19I forget, I think all the American car makers
1:38:21have said they're not making sedans.
1:38:22I forget, but yeah, very few sedans.
1:38:24I bet there'll be a 3GT-like replacement
1:38:30by the time BMW goes all electric,
1:38:32which I think is currently scheduled
1:38:33for 2025 or something like that.
1:38:35- Yeah, all I want is just make your existing car lineups,
1:38:40just give electric options.
1:38:44I would love an electric 2 Series.
1:38:47- I don't want some weirdo, like the i3 is fine,
1:38:49it's weird, we might get one, I don't know.
1:38:51There's currently a pretty compelling
1:38:52lease special on it, so we'll see.
1:38:53But I don't know, I don't want some weirdo new model.
1:38:58I just want, in John's terminology,
1:39:01we want a car-shaped car, just electric.
1:39:04- Audi makes those.
1:39:04- And there are very few of them.
1:39:06No, they don't, they really don't.
1:39:08They make SUV-shaped cars.
1:39:09- The e-tron are exactly like the other Audis,
1:39:12but with ugly grills on them.
1:39:13- I guess that's true.
1:39:14- But it's only the SUV right now, right?
1:39:17- Well, that's all anyone makes.
1:39:19It all makes it hands, what are you talking about?
1:39:21- And all the other ones, of all the compelling options,
1:39:25you basically have the Chevy Bolt,
1:39:28which is a fairly compelling option.
1:39:31We haven't actually tested a different one yet, but--
1:39:33- I have.
1:39:34- Really, what'd you think of it?
1:39:35- Yeah, my parents have one.
1:39:37- Oh yeah, I forgot, I think I knew that
1:39:38and I forgot about it.
1:39:39'Cause it's kind of like a crossover
1:39:42SUV kind of thing also, right?
1:39:43Ew, it's weird.
1:39:45- It's a tall, ugly car, I think that's the category.
1:39:48- Yeah, I don't think it's--
1:39:50- It's a tuck, tall, ugly car.
1:39:51(laughing)
1:39:52- I don't think it's ugly, but it is not attractive
1:39:55and it is a tall car.
1:39:56It is, as much as I like to snark on the GT,
1:40:00it is kind of outback-ish in the sense that the car is tall,
1:40:04but it's not very high off the ground like an SUV is.
1:40:07It's still low, but it's kind of tall.
1:40:09It's very odd to describe, but I will say driving it,
1:40:12surprisingly good.
1:40:14I was really going into this expecting to hate that thing
1:40:18and it is actually, well for me,
1:40:21who is not used to a Tesla,
1:40:22like I've driven Teslas many more times
1:40:25than one would expect having never owned one,
1:40:27but I am not used to a Tesla in the same way
1:40:31that you or some of our other friends may be.
1:40:33And the Bolt is actually surprisingly, surprisingly good.
1:40:37I was really, really impressed by it.
1:40:40- If you went i3, you would not get the range extended
1:40:43or whatever they call it one.
1:40:44You would get the straight electric one.
1:40:46- Yeah, 'cause we don't really need the range extender
1:40:50and I would not want it just for complexity
1:40:54and long-term service risk needs.
1:40:57Having a simpler mechanical thing, especially for BMW,
1:41:01is probably for the best.
1:41:03But yeah, most of the options that we were looking at
1:41:07aren't incredibly competitive.
1:41:11Our friend has a Kia Soul EV,
1:41:13which is a surprisingly good value in practice,
1:41:16but they are currently not in production.
1:41:18They're like between model arrows
1:41:20and they're like, they're currently, you can't buy 'em.
1:41:23But that would be a contender.
1:41:26The i3 looks good.
1:41:29For the i3, I like that it has a very small garage footprint.
1:41:32It's a weirdly tall car,
1:41:34but it's also very narrow and short.
1:41:36And so it actually would be kinda nice.
1:41:40But all these have major problems.
1:41:42- We got the e-Golf, which is exactly what you asked for.
1:41:44It's just a carbon electric.
1:41:45- Yes, but they don't make it.
1:41:47- Yeah, it's very hard to find and also--
1:41:49- Well, I think they're out of production now,
1:41:51if I'm not mistaken.
1:41:52I could have that wrong,
1:41:52but I don't think they're making them anymore.
1:41:56However, that is absolutely,
1:41:58as much as I am obviously biased about this,
1:42:00given what you're describing about a car-shaped car,
1:42:03without question, the e-Golf is the right answer.
1:42:05- It's not a car-shaped, it's golf-shaped.
1:42:07- Yeah, oh.
1:42:09- I walked right into it, I walked right into it.
1:42:10- But here's the problem with the e-Golf, right?
1:42:13So it has, among these cars,
1:42:15there's kinda like two range classes.
1:42:17There's like the ones that are around 100, 120 mile range,
1:42:22which are kinda like the old generation
1:42:25electric entry-level cars.
1:42:26And there's ones that are like 200 and up, right?
1:42:28So the Chevy Bolt is like 238 officially in the new one.
1:42:33The e-Golf is the old range.
1:42:35It is 125 miles.
1:42:36It's also zero to 60 in about eight and a half seconds.
1:42:40So a little sluggish there.
1:42:42We don't want like a step down from her 340 GT in speed,
1:42:48at least much of one.
1:42:48And that seemed like it'd be kind of a step down in both.
1:42:52The Model 3 is a very interesting option here.
1:42:57It's just one of the most expensive options.
1:42:59But it does really kind of destroy the other ones
1:43:02in lots of different ways.
1:43:03I can see, not even being an existing Tesla fan,
1:43:06I can see why the Model 3 is selling so well.
1:43:09Because when you compare it to other cars
1:43:12that are other entry-level, or sorry,
1:43:16mid-range electric cars,
1:43:18it really does compete very well against them,
1:43:22at least on paper.
1:43:24- 'Cause there are no other mid-range sedans.
1:43:26They're all little SUVs.
1:43:28- Yes!
1:43:28- The Model Y is the actual Tesla competitor
1:43:32to the whole rest of the car industry,
1:43:33'cause the whole rest of the car industry
1:43:35makes big and small SUVs.
1:43:36- Yeah, but it's, yeah.
1:43:38And also, other things,
1:43:40most of these don't have things that we want,
1:43:44like sunroofs or all-wheel drive.
1:43:48There's just little things that you think,
1:43:50if you're just looking at drivetrain first,
1:43:53you might miss some of this stuff or not realize it.
1:43:55And then you start digging in, like, wait a minute,
1:43:58only two of these even have a sunroof option.
1:44:00And not including the Model 3, by the way.
1:44:03Model 3, although, is the only one
1:44:04that I can find that has all-wheel drive.
1:44:07It also has the longest range, it's the fastest.
1:44:09We can't find a good option yet,
1:44:14but we do have to do a lot of test driving still,
1:44:16which we just have been delaying,
1:44:17'cause we're not that motivated.
1:44:19But I'm really disappointed
1:44:23in how relatively few
1:44:26pure electric car options we still have.
1:44:29I was assuming years ago,
1:44:32I was assuming that by now,
1:44:33especially somebody like BMW, who's still tech-forward
1:44:37and was pretty early to having an electric option at all,
1:44:42I would expect now to be able to go
1:44:44and buy just an electric 3-series,
1:44:47which you can't do still.
1:44:49They recently added the plug-in hybrids
1:44:52to some of their model lines, but it's very, very few.
1:44:55And a plug-in hybrid is not an electric car.
1:44:58It's kind of a half-assed solution,
1:44:59but that's not what we're looking for.
1:45:01I just, I thought there'd be more options by now.
1:45:04I love that the Honda E thing, that looks so cool,
1:45:09not being released in the US.
1:45:11Like, there's so many, like,
1:45:13so many of these options are almost really cool
1:45:15or almost good and just can't get 'em,
1:45:18or they fall over in some critical way.
1:45:21I don't know, what am I missing?
1:45:22- E-Tron's not four-wheel drive, I thought it was.
1:45:24- It is, I believe.
1:45:25- It's not a car.
1:45:26- Yeah, it's not--
1:45:27- It's a tall wagon, it's not as bad as an SUV.
1:45:30It's more like--
1:45:31- It is very good looking in person.
1:45:32I've seen one once, and it was very good looking,
1:45:34but I am not nearly as offended by non-sedans
1:45:37as the two of you are.
1:45:38- Yeah, you should actually,
1:45:39you should see if there's, like, lurking within TIFF,
1:45:42some, like there apparently was in E-Tron,
1:45:45some sort of latent SUV love,
1:45:48which apparently this is a thing that lurks in people,
1:45:50and they don't want to admit it,
1:45:52but suddenly you put them up in a big high chair in the sky,
1:45:54and they're like, "Ooh."
1:45:56So, like, you should try the Jaguar I-PACE,
1:45:58and you'll be like, "Wow, I'm sitting so high,
1:46:00"and like, maybe she'll love it."
1:46:01Like, Erin seems to like her car,
1:46:03and it's a monster, right?
1:46:04So, you never know.
1:46:06- Yeah, you think you know someone.
1:46:08- Right, exactly, like, you just,
1:46:09you could be unintentionally shaming TIFF
1:46:12into not liking giant SUVs
1:46:13like the whole rest of the world does.
1:46:15Well, the whole rest of the US, sorry.
1:46:17- What we should probably do
1:46:18is probably just go test drive a Chevy Bull.
1:46:20That's probably gonna be the right answer, but--
1:46:22- You should test drive the I-PACE and the E-Tron as well.
1:46:25- I agree.
1:46:26- Well, but like, one thing we also wanted
1:46:28was something small.
1:46:29Like, we want the, 'cause we have, my car is big.
1:46:33Like, we already have a big car for when we need a big car.
1:46:36For the second car, we want something small.
1:46:37- I think those are both smaller than your car, though.
1:46:39- And why does it matter if it's electric?
1:46:41Like, the whole point of getting a small car
1:46:43in the olden days was because it was more fuel efficient.
1:46:45Why does it matter if it's electric?
1:46:46- It's more unwieldy, and it takes up room in the garage,
1:46:48and my ding's mark was good car.
1:46:50(laughing)
1:46:52- The correct answer to your question, by the way,
1:46:54which you're not gonna like,
1:46:55but it is the correct answer to your question,
1:46:56except it's not available yet, is the Polestar 2,
1:46:59which is Volvo's sedan-shaped sedan that is all electric.
1:47:03I don't know if it's all-wheel drive, actually,
1:47:05but it has the equivalent of 490 foot-pounds of torque.
1:47:09It has the equivalent of 300-plus miles of range,
1:47:12or so they say, zero to 60 in 4.7 seconds.
1:47:15Like, in so many ways, I think this is exactly
1:47:18the right solution for you,
1:47:19if you don't wanna just get another Tesla.
1:47:21- Does it have a sunroof?
1:47:22- I don't know.
1:47:23That's a fine question, actually.
1:47:24- It's a good feature.
1:47:25- It looks nice, it does look a little bit big,
1:47:28but it does look nice, I'll tell you that.
1:47:30- But I think, like all those cars,
1:47:31I think the I-Pace and the E-Tron
1:47:33are both smaller than the Model S.
1:47:35Like, not by a lot, but smaller.
1:47:38And I think the Polestar 2,
1:47:39nah, I don't like the dimensions.
1:47:41Oh, the Polestar 2 is that one.
1:47:42- What about the Polestar 1?
1:47:42Where's this?
1:47:43This looks pretty nice.
1:47:44- Yeah, the Polestar 2 is the one that's like,
1:47:46you can tell it's sitting on top of its battery pack.
1:47:48I think it looks ungainly.
1:47:49The Polestar 1 is the nicer-looking one,
1:47:51but it's not practical, I think.
1:47:52- It also doesn't seem to exist.
1:47:54Do any of these cars exist?
1:47:55I just, why?
1:47:56We've known about electric cars for quite some time.
1:47:59Why don't we have any?
1:48:02- Go test drive a Taycan, or, sorry, Taycan.
1:48:05The pronunciation is coming down on that.
1:48:07- Is that how you're supposed to pronounce that?
1:48:08- Yeah, they want you to say Taycan, I think.
1:48:11It's definitely Ty, the second syllable
1:48:13I'm pretty sure is con.
1:48:14- It's way too expensive and bloated
1:48:17and not what I'm looking for.
1:48:18- First deliveries of the Polestar 2, July 2020.
1:48:22- What about the 1?
1:48:23Is that a thing?
1:48:24- That's not a thing.
1:48:25- No, it's hybrid anyway, you don't want that.
1:48:27- Oh, it's hybrid, what the?
1:48:29- Polestar 1 was like, is it before the Polestar 2?
1:48:32Polestar 1 is like their sort of
1:48:34flagship, fancy, impractical car,
1:48:38and it was made in the hybrid era, not in the electric era.
1:48:42But it looks good.
1:48:43- Does look good, definitely looks good.
1:48:45- I want the Honda thing.
1:48:47Where's the Honda thing?
1:48:48Bring that to the US.
1:48:49- What you want does not exist.
1:48:51And I can think of--
1:48:51- I think that there will be a small Honda EV,
1:48:54but Honda is not tech forward.
1:48:57So don't hold your breath for,
1:48:58I mean, talk about, like, it's kind of amazing
1:49:01that Honda has done that at all.
1:49:03You know, Honda was barely putting turbochargers
1:49:06in its cars, so, you know.
1:49:09But it will come eventually, but for this round,
1:49:11I think you're gonna have to get something else.
1:49:14You know, a test drive doesn't mean buying.
1:49:16You should test drive them all anyway.
1:49:18Again, you might release those latent SUV love jeans.
1:49:22You should ask Erin about her experience
1:49:25of living with an SUV shamer for all those years
1:49:27and finally breaking through
1:49:28and getting to be her bad SUV self.
1:49:31- I never really shamed her that much for SUVs.
1:49:33I really didn't.
1:49:34- Well, I'm trying to get more garage space, not less.
1:49:36- I understand the struggle for garage space.
1:49:38I more than anyone understand what's really at stake here
1:49:41is Marco wants to park in the dead center
1:49:42of his gigantic garage, so there's nothing around his cars,
1:49:44and he can swing them open with impunity
1:49:46and not even hit his rack-mounted networking gear
1:49:49with his door.
1:49:50- Which is ridiculous, 'cause you could just summon
1:49:52your stupid Tesla and then it'll unleash itself.
1:49:55You don't even have to worry about it.
1:49:56- Probably ultimate luxury of being able
1:49:57to swing your doors open in your garage
1:49:59to park dead center in a two-car garage.
1:50:01That's what he's looking for.
1:50:03- Whenever either me or Tiff go away for a weekend
1:50:06and leave the other person here.
1:50:08- You park in the middle.
1:50:09- Yeah, we always park like a jerk
1:50:11and take a picture and send it to the other person.
1:50:13Like a car parked diagonally inside the garage.
1:50:16- Just like that Seinfeld episode, wide luxurious lanes.
1:50:19- Exactly.
1:50:20- You have to do it.
1:50:21That's the rules of being married with a two-car garage.
1:50:23That is what has to happen.
1:50:25(laughing)
1:50:27[BLANK_AUDIO]