ATP

00:00:00 ◼   ► So what computer are you on right now?

00:00:02 ◼   ► - The fact that you even have to ask that question

00:00:04 ◼   ► is really depressing, really, really depressing.

00:00:08 ◼   ► I'm on my iMac, I think last we spoke,

00:00:11 ◼   ► nothing has changed with regard to the iMac, so it was--

00:00:15 ◼   ► - So you still only had it repaired once,

00:00:17 ◼   ► and then you did a software restore, basically?

00:00:19 ◼   ► - Well, so, I had it repaired once,

00:00:21 ◼   ► I restored from Time Machine, things got wonky,

00:00:25 ◼   ► and then last Monday, so not October, what is today,

00:00:29 ◼   ► it's the ninth, so not October 7th,

00:00:31 ◼   ► but September 30th, I believe it was,

00:00:34 ◼   ► I decided I'm just gonna nuke everything from orbit,

00:00:36 ◼   ► and what is the genesis of that reference, John?

00:00:39 ◼   ► - You don't know, you're making me so disappointed.

00:00:42 ◼   ► I use it, you use it, I'm like,

00:00:44 ◼   ► yeah, we're all on the same page, we all get this reference,

00:00:46 ◼   ► but now you're admitting that you don't,

00:00:47 ◼   ► and of course Marco doesn't.

00:00:48 ◼   ► - No, of course not.

00:00:49 ◼   ► (John laughs)

00:00:50 ◼   ► - What is genesis of that?

00:00:51 ◼   ► - Aliens, the one with the S, the plural one,

00:00:54 ◼   ► the second one, the James Cameron one.

00:00:56 ◼   ► - I've never seen it.

00:00:57 ◼   ► - You've never seen aliens?

00:00:59 ◼   ► - Wait, hold on, there are two different movies,

00:01:01 ◼   ► one called Alien and one called Aliens.

00:01:03 ◼   ► - There sure is.

00:01:04 ◼   ► - That's terrible.

00:01:05 ◼   ► - Are they related?

00:01:06 ◼   ► - They sure are, 'cause the first one had one alien,

00:01:10 ◼   ► and the second one had more than one,

00:01:13 ◼   ► thus the plural. - Spoiler alert!

00:01:14 ◼   ► - That's terrible. - Right there in the title,

00:01:16 ◼   ► Casey, Alien, that's not terrible, that is classy.

00:01:19 ◼   ► That is, before it was like--

00:01:21 ◼   ► - Aliens 2, more aliens.

00:01:23 ◼   ► - Furious 5, and The Fate of the Furious,

00:01:25 ◼   ► and Fast Five, and all this ridiculous,

00:01:27 ◼   ► we had Alien, and then it was followed up by Aliens,

00:01:30 ◼   ► which is a perfect way to amp up the sequel

00:01:33 ◼   ► while not being too loud about it.

00:01:35 ◼   ► It's like, you get where I'm coming from.

00:01:37 ◼   ► You had Alien, and it was a great movie,

00:01:39 ◼   ► and you all loved it, guess what?

00:01:40 ◼   ► Aliens, also James Cameron.

00:01:42 ◼   ► And it's another rare sequel that is,

00:01:44 ◼   ► let's say, almost as good as the original,

00:01:47 ◼   ► some would say better, some would say,

00:01:49 ◼   ► oh, it'll never match the original,

00:01:51 ◼   ► 'cause it's a different kind of movie,

00:01:52 ◼   ► but I think we can all agree, it's a very good sequel.

00:01:55 ◼   ► - Oh, God. - Totally, totally.

00:01:57 ◼   ► - Marco, you and I are gonna get right on that, right?

00:01:58 ◼   ► That's our homework, you and me?

00:02:00 ◼   ► - I'm assuming neither of you has seen the original Alien,

00:02:03 ◼   ► the singular one, right?

00:02:04 ◼   ► - I don't think so.

00:02:04 ◼   ► - 'Cause that's like a '70s movie,

00:02:05 ◼   ► and that's before your time, but Aliens,

00:02:08 ◼   ► I think Casey, at least, would enjoy if he's not too scared.

00:02:11 ◼   ► - If anything, I think Casey and I have proven to you, John,

00:02:14 ◼   ► over the years, that whether or not a movie was in our time

00:02:17 ◼   ► has nothing to do with whether we've seen it.

00:02:19 ◼   ► The answer is we've never seen it.

00:02:21 ◼   ► - You've seen a lot of garbage '90s movies.

00:02:23 ◼   ► There's a higher chance of you seeing it

00:02:24 ◼   ► if it's in your time,

00:02:25 ◼   ► whereas the classic '70s movies you haven't seen,

00:02:28 ◼   ► but you've seen no garbage '70s movies, right?

00:02:31 ◼   ► And you've seen few classic '70s movies,

00:02:33 ◼   ► but '90s movies, you're probably all,

00:02:35 ◼   ► you know, you've seen all sorts of trash.

00:02:36 ◼   ► - So when Erin and I were engaged,

00:02:40 ◼   ► she was living in Richmond,

00:02:41 ◼   ► and I was still in Charlottesville,

00:02:42 ◼   ► and that meant I had lots of time on my hands

00:02:45 ◼   ► with nothing to do,

00:02:46 ◼   ► and this was back when Netflix still sent DVDs,

00:02:49 ◼   ► and I went on a binge of watching the original versions

00:02:54 ◼   ► of then modern films that I really loved.

00:02:56 ◼   ► So I watched the original "Italian Job."

00:02:59 ◼   ► I watched the original "Oceans 11."

00:03:01 ◼   ► - The original "Dodgeball."

00:03:03 ◼   ► - I hope you're kidding, 'cause if that's a remake,

00:03:06 ◼   ► I've gotta watch the original right away,

00:03:07 ◼   ► but I'm pretty sure you're full of it.

00:03:09 ◼   ► Anyway, I watched the original "Gone in 60 Seconds,"

00:03:12 ◼   ► and I don't know if it's my,

00:03:15 ◼   ► as we've long established, terrible sensibilities,

00:03:17 ◼   ► but not a one of those was any good at all.

00:03:20 ◼   ► Even, what was it, "Italian Job" had Michael Caine,

00:03:23 ◼   ► who I love, my cocaine,

00:03:26 ◼   ► and I absolutely love Michael Caine,

00:03:27 ◼   ► and that movie was also terrible.

00:03:30 ◼   ► So I have seen some things from the '60s and '70s,

00:03:33 ◼   ► and I did not enjoy them, but that's okay.

00:03:36 ◼   ► So to come back around to my computers,

00:03:38 ◼   ► a week ago Monday, I had nuked the iMac from Orbit,

00:03:43 ◼   ► as we discussed, that's from the movie "Aliens."

00:03:45 ◼   ► That's right, right?

00:03:46 ◼   ► "Aliens" got "alien"?

00:03:47 ◼   ► That doesn't matter.

00:03:48 ◼   ► Anyway, it's from some movie I haven't seen.

00:03:50 ◼   ► So since then, knock on my glass desk,

00:03:53 ◼   ► it seems to be behaving considerably better.

00:03:56 ◼   ► Then a few days ago,

00:03:59 ◼   ► I was attempting to use my MacBook,

00:04:02 ◼   ► and I would start it up either from sleep or rebooting it,

00:04:06 ◼   ► and it would work for a little bit,

00:04:07 ◼   ► and then it would refuse all input

00:04:10 ◼   ► from the mouse and the keyboard.

00:04:12 ◼   ► Now, the mouse was clicking, because, mind you,

00:04:14 ◼   ► this is one of the, what's the term for the fancy track pads

00:04:19 ◼   ► where it's all haptic, right?

00:04:20 ◼   ► There's no-- - Oh, it's a 3D Force.

00:04:23 ◼   ► - Whatever, yeah, sure.

00:04:25 ◼   ► But anyway, the point is,

00:04:27 ◼   ► it's a mini haptic engine that's causing the clicking.

00:04:30 ◼   ► It's not an actual physical motion

00:04:32 ◼   ► that's causing the clicking, and it was clicking,

00:04:33 ◼   ► which typically indicates that somewhere deep

00:04:36 ◼   ► in the software, something is working.

00:04:38 ◼   ► But I couldn't change focus to a different window.

00:04:41 ◼   ► I couldn't do anything with the keyboard.

00:04:43 ◼   ► It was just a disaster.

00:04:44 ◼   ► And this happened reliably several times in a row,

00:04:46 ◼   ► and I thought, well, I guess it's time

00:04:47 ◼   ► to nuke this bad boy from Orbit, too.

00:04:49 ◼   ► So that's what I did.

00:04:51 ◼   ► I did an internet recovery, which actually,

00:04:54 ◼   ► quick aside, works stunningly well,

00:04:57 ◼   ► at least for me on my very fast internet connection.

00:04:59 ◼   ► So if you hit, I'm gonna get this wrong,

00:05:02 ◼   ► but it's Command + Option + R,

00:05:04 ◼   ► or maybe it's Command + R, I forget what it is.

00:05:06 ◼   ► - Command + R is regular recovery.

00:05:07 ◼   ► Command + Option + R is the one

00:05:09 ◼   ► where it gets the latest version of the internet.

00:05:11 ◼   ► - Yes, and then there's Command + Option + something else R

00:05:14 ◼   ► that gives you the version that came with the computer,

00:05:17 ◼   ► again, off the internet.

00:05:18 ◼   ► - No, no, Command + R does that,

00:05:19 ◼   ► because it's just booting from your recovery partition,

00:05:21 ◼   ► which probably has not been updated

00:05:23 ◼   ► since you installed the original operating system

00:05:25 ◼   ► or since it came with the computer.

00:05:26 ◼   ► Command + R boots off the recovery partition,

00:05:28 ◼   ► I'm pretty sure, and the Command + Option + R is internet.

00:05:30 ◼   ► - Right, and I thought, maybe I'm wrong,

00:05:31 ◼   ► it doesn't really matter,

00:05:32 ◼   ► but I thought there was another key modifier

00:05:34 ◼   ► that you could do an internet recovery

00:05:36 ◼   ► against the version of the OS that your computer came with.

00:05:39 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, there probably is.

00:05:40 ◼   ► I didn't know if it would be presented with you,

00:05:42 ◼   ► a menu or something.

00:05:43 ◼   ► Once you're going to the internet,

00:05:44 ◼   ► you have the option to pull different versions, I'm sure.

00:05:47 ◼   ► Yeah, so anyway, so I did an internet recovery,

00:05:49 ◼   ► and this was, I think the day that Catalina came out,

00:05:52 ◼   ► it was this past Monday or something like that.

00:05:53 ◼   ► It was shortly after Catalina came out,

00:05:55 ◼   ► and sure enough, it gave me Catalina,

00:05:56 ◼   ► and so far, it actually seems to be working better,

00:06:01 ◼   ► I would say.

00:06:02 ◼   ► The iMac in particular had a fair bit of cruft within it,

00:06:05 ◼   ► but the MacBook, I don't think it had very much cruft

00:06:09 ◼   ► from years and years and years

00:06:10 ◼   ► of the same load being brought forward

00:06:13 ◼   ► with each new computer, but even still,

00:06:16 ◼   ► a couple of years on, I feel like the MacBook,

00:06:18 ◼   ► and maybe it's a placebo,

00:06:19 ◼   ► but I feel like the MacBook

00:06:20 ◼   ► is operating considerably better now.

00:06:21 ◼   ► So my MacBook, and we'll talk about this more later,

00:06:23 ◼   ► my MacBook is on Catalina.

00:06:25 ◼   ► I have not yet touched Catalina on the iMac.

00:06:27 ◼   ► I'm not really sure why, except that everyone seems

00:06:30 ◼   ► to be up in arms about the thought of upgrading.

00:06:33 ◼   ► I think I would be fine, but I'm so scared

00:06:35 ◼   ► to touch anything at this point

00:06:37 ◼   ► that I figure I'll just wait it out for a little while.

00:06:40 ◼   ► But yeah, all seems well in my computing world,

00:06:44 ◼   ► at least for the time being, and I really am impressed.

00:06:48 ◼   ► I really honestly am impressed

00:06:49 ◼   ► with how well the internet recovery worked on the MacBook,

00:06:52 ◼   ► because I have a gigabit connection,

00:06:55 ◼   ► basically both directions, and it didn't take

00:06:59 ◼   ► considerably longer than I would have expected.

00:07:01 ◼   ► It took about as long as I expected,

00:07:02 ◼   ► especially given that it's a MacBook,

00:07:04 ◼   ► which is slow and underpowered, et cetera.

00:07:06 ◼   ► And it worked really, really, really well.

00:07:08 ◼   ► And so I think everything's good, believe it or not.

00:07:12 ◼   ► I don't know, we'll see.

00:07:14 ◼   ► (electronic beeping)

00:07:16 ◼   ► Tell me, gentlemen, I did not put this in the show notes,

00:07:18 ◼   ► but as soon as one of you did, I kinda slapped my forehead

00:07:22 ◼   ► and realized, oh man, I completely forgot about this.

00:07:25 ◼   ► Did FaceTime attention correction ship?

00:07:28 ◼   ► - I check on my phone, but my phone is still not running

00:07:30 ◼   ► iOS 13 'cause I'm a scaredy cat.

00:07:32 ◼   ► Why don't one of you check for me?

00:07:34 ◼   ► - All right, so where would this be?

00:07:35 ◼   ► I'm looking in settings, let me search for FaceTime.

00:07:37 ◼   ► - Well, that's assuming the search is working.

00:07:39 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's true too.

00:07:40 ◼   ► - No, don't search, just search with your eyeballs.

00:07:43 ◼   ► - While I'm looking at the FaceTime portion of settings,

00:07:46 ◼   ► I see allows FaceTime to access Siri and search,

00:07:49 ◼   ► FaceTime on or off, my Apple ID, where I can be reached,

00:07:52 ◼   ► my caller ID, FaceTime Live photos,

00:07:55 ◼   ► and blocked contacts, and that is it.

00:07:56 ◼   ► - And I can verify on 13.2 it's exactly the same.

00:07:58 ◼   ► - Interesting, so I would say that no, it has not shipped.

00:08:01 ◼   ► Where did we come down on this?

00:08:03 ◼   ► If I recall correctly, I thought that this was really cool,

00:08:06 ◼   ► and I thought that both of you guys

00:08:07 ◼   ► were kind of anti-attention correction, is that right?

00:08:11 ◼   ► - Yeah. - I was very anti.

00:08:13 ◼   ► For reasons beyond the technical,

00:08:14 ◼   ► 'cause I just thought it was the wrong thing

00:08:17 ◼   ► to try to accomplish.

00:08:18 ◼   ► I don't remember what Marco's stance was.

00:08:21 ◼   ► - Mine was almost as anti as you, basically.

00:08:23 ◼   ► It's a very risky thing to try to do,

00:08:26 ◼   ► because if you do it even slightly wrong,

00:08:28 ◼   ► it really messes up badly.

00:08:30 ◼   ► - Yeah, I was saying that even if you did it perfectly right,

00:08:33 ◼   ► and perhaps especially if you did it perfectly right,

00:08:36 ◼   ► I still don't like it.

00:08:37 ◼   ► Anyway, we'll add that to the bin of things

00:08:40 ◼   ► that didn't quite make it into 13.0 or 13.1 or 13.2.

00:08:45 ◼   ► Stay tuned, brutal.

00:08:49 ◼   ► - And speaking of, one of you has noticed

00:08:52 ◼   ► that at apple.com/macos/catalina/features,

00:08:55 ◼   ► we'll put a link in the show notes,

00:08:56 ◼   ► there is a genuinely long list of features,

00:08:59 ◼   ► I didn't even realize this page was here,

00:09:01 ◼   ► a very long list of features that are new in Catalina,

00:09:04 ◼   ► but if you look closely,

00:09:05 ◼   ► two of them have little asterisks next to them.

00:09:08 ◼   ► One of them is iCloud Drive folder sharing,

00:09:11 ◼   ► which I think I speak for all three of us in saying

00:09:13 ◼   ► we were very excited to have,

00:09:15 ◼   ► because we could have maybe stopped using Dropbox

00:09:18 ◼   ► for sharing audio files between the three of us.

00:09:20 ◼   ► - You two were excited about that, I was not.

00:09:22 ◼   ► I continue not to be excited by iCloud Drive

00:09:25 ◼   ► or folder sharing or anything related to it.

00:09:27 ◼   ► - Well now I'm not.

00:09:28 ◼   ► I was very excited about that,

00:09:32 ◼   ► but now I'm thinking when it comes out,

00:09:34 ◼   ► are we gonna trust it?

00:09:36 ◼   ► You know, it has had such a rocky summer,

00:09:39 ◼   ► like the early betas,

00:09:41 ◼   ► the reason it was delayed it seemed was

00:09:42 ◼   ► that the early betas were really bad

00:09:43 ◼   ► and people were losing data and files.

00:09:45 ◼   ► And it seems like now it's even,

00:09:49 ◼   ► it was so hard apparently to fix that and get it right

00:09:51 ◼   ► that they were delaying it until next spring.

00:09:54 ◼   ► So I don't know, when it does finally come out,

00:09:56 ◼   ► are any of us gonna trust it?

00:09:58 ◼   ► How long is it gonna take for any of us to trust it?

00:10:01 ◼   ► I mean, I feel like in this context specifically,

00:10:05 ◼   ► so the three of us are trying to share files

00:10:08 ◼   ► amongst ourselves, where presumably these files

00:10:13 ◼   ► will get caught up by time machine

00:10:15 ◼   ► on each of our respective computers

00:10:17 ◼   ► within an hour of them being generated.

00:10:20 ◼   ► I feel like I would be okay with it.

00:10:21 ◼   ► I don't think I would be too scared,

00:10:25 ◼   ► but you know, you never really know what can happen,

00:10:27 ◼   ► especially when it comes to iCloud.

00:10:29 ◼   ► I haven't yet been burned by iCloud really badly

00:10:32 ◼   ► and I almost wonder if that shoe is about to drop,

00:10:34 ◼   ► especially given the conversation we just had

00:10:36 ◼   ► about everything else in my computing life

00:10:37 ◼   ► being a little rough these days.

00:10:39 ◼   ► But I don't know, I feel like Apple has had themselves

00:10:44 ◼   ► burned by this whole beta experience

00:10:48 ◼   ► and one would hope that they have learned their lesson

00:10:51 ◼   ► and one would hope that they will not make

00:10:54 ◼   ► this mistake again.

00:10:55 ◼   ► But I don't know, with Apple,

00:10:56 ◼   ► especially when it comes to services,

00:10:57 ◼   ► can you ever really be confident ever?

00:11:00 ◼   ► - Well, a lot of their services do work well,

00:11:03 ◼   ► but the ones that don't, they seem to never really fix

00:11:07 ◼   ► in a way that earns our trust.

00:11:10 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:11:10 ◼   ► - I mean, some of them, they've done a good job with.

00:11:13 ◼   ► I feel like the backend for the Photos app,

00:11:17 ◼   ► we had so many reasons not to trust it

00:11:18 ◼   ► and there were bugs in the beginning

00:11:20 ◼   ► and people did lose photos and have weird glitches

00:11:22 ◼   ► and stuff, but overall at this point,

00:11:24 ◼   ► I think the Photos backend has matured to the point

00:11:26 ◼   ► where the vast majority of complaints about Photos

00:11:30 ◼   ► have nothing to do with the backend

00:11:32 ◼   ► and everything to do with the application

00:11:33 ◼   ► that through which you use the backend,

00:11:35 ◼   ► but in general, I think the Photo backend sinks.

00:11:38 ◼   ► And that's a hard problem, I mean,

00:11:40 ◼   ► 'cause Photos are numerous and large and just ever-growing

00:11:43 ◼   ► and I don't think there are as many light users of Photos

00:11:47 ◼   ► because like on Drive, you can put three or four things there

00:11:50 ◼   ► and that's it, right?

00:11:51 ◼   ► Whereas Photos, if you take any photos,

00:11:53 ◼   ► presumably if you continue to live,

00:11:55 ◼   ► you will take more photos.

00:11:56 ◼   ► And you probably don't delete your old photos

00:11:58 ◼   ► and so it's a larger volume problem.

00:12:02 ◼   ► The main reason I put this in the notes is,

00:12:04 ◼   ► here we've talked about iCloud Drive folder sharing

00:12:06 ◼   ► being delayed or whatever and we're thinking like,

00:12:10 ◼   ► oh, maybe it's delayed till 13.1 or maybe 13.2

00:12:12 ◼   ► if you wanna be pessimistic, but as Mark already noted,

00:12:15 ◼   ► this page from Apple says, coming this spring,

00:12:19 ◼   ► which you'll note is next year,

00:12:22 ◼   ► like not even, but in the fall or by the end of the year

00:12:27 ◼   ► or in early next year, I guess spring could be early

00:12:31 ◼   ► next year, but as Marco also noted on Twitter today,

00:12:34 ◼   ► this spring or whatever, you were saying mid-year

00:12:36 ◼   ► or whatever, could also mean like WWDC.

00:12:38 ◼   ► I guess this spring can't mean WWDC.

00:12:40 ◼   ► - Yeah, I was talking about the Mengxi quote rumor

00:12:42 ◼   ► about second half or Q2 or like first half,

00:12:45 ◼   ► but it's like the first half of the year ends in June

00:12:48 ◼   ► and so anything that says, oh, it's gonna be announced

00:12:51 ◼   ► by Q1 or Q2, that could be WWDC.

00:12:54 ◼   ► - Yeah, anyway, they're giving themselves a lot of time,

00:12:57 ◼   ► which is fine, like if that's how long it takes,

00:13:00 ◼   ► that's how long it takes.

00:13:01 ◼   ► None of us want them to ship this in a broken state,

00:13:04 ◼   ► so take your time and get it done.

00:13:06 ◼   ► Hopefully you get it done before whatever's after Catalina.

00:13:10 ◼   ► There's one more item here that I hadn't even recalled,

00:13:16 ◼   ► but I saw it on the same feature page,

00:13:17 ◼   ► which is communication limits where it's kind of like

00:13:20 ◼   ► part of the screen time where you can limit

00:13:23 ◼   ► who your children can communicate with

00:13:26 ◼   ► during certain periods maybe or all the time.

00:13:29 ◼   ► Like when they're in downtime,

00:13:31 ◼   ► they can use the Messages app,

00:13:32 ◼   ► but they can only use the Messages app

00:13:33 ◼   ► to communicate to you and not to their friends

00:13:35 ◼   ► or something like that.

00:13:36 ◼   ► That feature is apparently so complicated

00:13:39 ◼   ► that it's also not coming until spring.

00:13:42 ◼   ► - It is a cool feature though.

00:13:42 ◼   ► I don't remember them having talked about that at all

00:13:45 ◼   ► when I saw this in the show notes.

00:13:46 ◼   ► - I remember it 'cause I'm more attuned

00:13:48 ◼   ► to the parental control-y type things,

00:13:51 ◼   ► mostly because I, well, I don't know.

00:13:53 ◼   ► I do use screen time,

00:13:54 ◼   ► but it's basically like a bedtime enforcement mechanism

00:13:58 ◼   ► to say, just so the kids don't secret their phones

00:14:00 ◼   ► into the bed and stay up until 1 a.m.

00:14:02 ◼   ► texting under the covers, they need to get sleep, right?

00:14:05 ◼   ► But I do want their devices to be useful in an emergency,

00:14:07 ◼   ► so Apple has all these sort of exceptions

00:14:09 ◼   ► where you can carve out,

00:14:11 ◼   ► like if they're stranded on the side of the road,

00:14:12 ◼   ► they can always call you, they can message you,

00:14:14 ◼   ► they can email you, they can do all sorts of things,

00:14:18 ◼   ► but it's very difficult to strike the balance

00:14:19 ◼   ► between having a device that works in emergencies

00:14:22 ◼   ► for everything they could possibly need,

00:14:23 ◼   ► maps, so on and so forth,

00:14:25 ◼   ► but also that doesn't let them burn too many hours of sleep

00:14:30 ◼   ► chatting with friends.

00:14:31 ◼   ► - Makes sense.

00:14:32 ◼   ► Can we pivot ever so slightly?

00:14:34 ◼   ► What are your guys' expectations

00:14:36 ◼   ► with regard to the remainder of this month in an Apple event?

00:14:38 ◼   ► Because a week or two ago, I would have said,

00:14:42 ◼   ► without question, there's going to be an Apple event

00:14:46 ◼   ► shortly before Halloween, just like there was last year,

00:14:48 ◼   ► and that is going to be the deal.

00:14:50 ◼   ► There'll be new MacBook Pros,

00:14:52 ◼   ► there will probably be a new iPad Pro.

00:14:55 ◼   ► We'll get more details about your beloved Mac Pro,

00:14:58 ◼   ► God rest my soul,

00:14:59 ◼   ► and we'll probably get some of the things

00:15:02 ◼   ► that have been promised software-wise,

00:15:04 ◼   ► like Photoshop for iPad,

00:15:05 ◼   ► but I don't know, after seeing this Ming-Chi Kuo rumor

00:15:09 ◼   ► and some of the other talking heads like ourselves

00:15:11 ◼   ► have started to pump the brakes a little bit on this,

00:15:14 ◼   ► and now I'm starting to waffle a bit and wonder,

00:15:16 ◼   ► do you guys still think there will be an October event,

00:15:19 ◼   ► and if so, what do you think will be there?

00:15:21 ◼   ► And let's start with Marco.

00:15:22 ◼   ► - The rumors are, the latest rumors are basically

00:15:25 ◼   ► that new MacBooks with scissor keyboards are coming out

00:15:28 ◼   ► basically next year by June,

00:15:31 ◼   ► but that is actually,

00:15:33 ◼   ► we've actually heard rumblings of that same thing before

00:15:36 ◼   ► with that same schedule.

00:15:38 ◼   ► What those rumors didn't mention

00:15:39 ◼   ► is the rumored 16-inch MacBook Pro.

00:15:42 ◼   ► Those rumors were about the other models

00:15:44 ◼   ► of various Apple laptops.

00:15:46 ◼   ► The 16-inch is still unknown,

00:15:48 ◼   ► but the latest rumors of the 16-inch

00:15:51 ◼   ► were that it's coming imminently,

00:15:53 ◼   ► that it's coming this fall,

00:15:54 ◼   ► like possibly even this month.

00:15:57 ◼   ► So as far as I know,

00:16:00 ◼   ► or as far as we've heard, rather,

00:16:03 ◼   ► that hasn't changed.

00:16:05 ◼   ► So I still believe, I'm still holding onto the dream

00:16:09 ◼   ► that we're getting this 16-inch.

00:16:12 ◼   ► I could really, really use a 16-inch laptop this weekend,

00:16:17 ◼   ► and so therefore, it's gonna be announced next week,

00:16:21 ◼   ► because I need it this weekend. (laughs)

00:16:23 ◼   ► - So thank you, Marco.

00:16:24 ◼   ► - Yeah, so to answer your question,

00:16:27 ◼   ► there is still so much that's rumored in the pipeline

00:16:30 ◼   ► that seems like it's fairly imminent.

00:16:31 ◼   ► So things like the little tag tile tracker things

00:16:35 ◼   ► that the U1 chip is supposed to help locate,

00:16:38 ◼   ► the rumored, and that we'll talk about later,

00:16:41 ◼   ► maybe the leaked image of the AirPods with the rubber tips,

00:16:46 ◼   ► so some kind of new AirPods model,

00:16:48 ◼   ► a rumored cheaper HomePod that was rumored recently.

00:16:53 ◼   ► There's all this different stuff.

00:16:54 ◼   ► And not to mention,

00:16:57 ◼   ► maybe when the TV service launches,

00:17:01 ◼   ► maybe they'll wanna do something too.

00:17:02 ◼   ► Oh, there's also rumored Apple TV hardware update as well.

00:17:05 ◼   ► So there's all this rumored stuff

00:17:07 ◼   ► about these lower-priority products

00:17:10 ◼   ► that are all still waiting in the wings somewhere.

00:17:13 ◼   ► And the iPhone event did seem

00:17:14 ◼   ► like some stuff was cut out of it.

00:17:16 ◼   ► So I'm still holding on to hope.

00:17:19 ◼   ► I'm not actually hopeful for iPads.

00:17:21 ◼   ► iPads seem like the rumors are all saying next year,

00:17:24 ◼   ► and that's fine.

00:17:25 ◼   ► The iPad Pro was just updated one year ago,

00:17:28 ◼   ► and they tend to be on a year-and-a-half or so cycle,

00:17:30 ◼   ► so that would be totally fine.

00:17:33 ◼   ► But I still think there is room for a smaller event

00:17:36 ◼   ► that would be the 16-inch MacBook Pro,

00:17:39 ◼   ► new HomePod, new AirPods, new Apple TV,

00:17:42 ◼   ► maybe something like that,

00:17:43 ◼   ► and maybe that tile tag tracker thing.

00:17:45 ◼   ► - Yeah, I started to get doubtful about the iPads

00:17:48 ◼   ► after the phone event just had the cheap one.

00:17:51 ◼   ► It's like, why wouldn't they say that for the iPad event,

00:17:53 ◼   ► oh, maybe there's not gonna be an iPad event.

00:17:54 ◼   ► But it seemed like it was still a thing that they could do.

00:17:57 ◼   ► But this new rumor about the next iPad having

00:17:59 ◼   ► what they keep calling a 3D ToF, or Time of Flight camera,

00:18:05 ◼   ► which is basically a camera that emits stuff,

00:18:08 ◼   ► I think it's light,

00:18:09 ◼   ► and tracks how long it takes to bounce off things.

00:18:13 ◼   ► - It's stuff.

00:18:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, it might be, I don't know if it's IR,

00:18:17 ◼   ► if it's visible light, if it's a laser,

00:18:19 ◼   ► if it's, you know, whatever.

00:18:20 ◼   ► Anyway, it times how long it takes to hit something

00:18:22 ◼   ► and bounce back to it to get a better depth map

00:18:26 ◼   ► for the purposes of AR and all that other stuff.

00:18:28 ◼   ► That's the rumor that the next iPad Pro

00:18:32 ◼   ► has that on its rear camera.

00:18:34 ◼   ► And also coming along with that rumor is,

00:18:37 ◼   ► and it's coming in the first half of next year.

00:18:39 ◼   ► So that, I feel like if there's any foundation at all,

00:18:42 ◼   ► kind of squashes any hope of a boring iPad Pro update,

00:18:47 ◼   ► which is basically take the existing iPad Pro,

00:18:48 ◼   ► put an A13 in it, you know,

00:18:50 ◼   ► that doesn't seem like it's gonna happen.

00:18:52 ◼   ► But like Marco said, the 16-inch rumors continue to be

00:18:56 ◼   ► that this is a thing that Apple could announce at any time.

00:19:00 ◼   ► Obviously all the rest of the laptops

00:19:03 ◼   ► have never really been rumored for imminent release

00:19:06 ◼   ► and are probably into next year.

00:19:08 ◼   ► That's fine.

00:19:09 ◼   ► I think the laptop can carry an October event.

00:19:11 ◼   ► Now, what do you have besides the laptop?

00:19:13 ◼   ► I think you can have the laptop

00:19:15 ◼   ► and like one other thing and it's fine.

00:19:18 ◼   ► I don't think all the things Marco listed

00:19:19 ◼   ► are gonna be there.

00:19:20 ◼   ► You can have laptop in the tiles, fine, there's your event.

00:19:22 ◼   ► You can have laptop and Apple TV, fine, there's your event.

00:19:25 ◼   ► You can have the laptop and the earbuds, fine,

00:19:26 ◼   ► there's your event.

00:19:27 ◼   ► Because if Apple's smart, well, I don't know.

00:19:30 ◼   ► I don't know if this is the right PR move,

00:19:31 ◼   ► but I think it would make everyone feel better

00:19:35 ◼   ► for Apple to make a very big deal

00:19:37 ◼   ► about how great this new laptop is.

00:19:39 ◼   ► Now, they don't have to have any self-flagellation

00:19:41 ◼   ► about oh, we made a bad keyboard, we're so sorry.

00:19:43 ◼   ► But they know that we know that they know.

00:19:46 ◼   ► You know, and they're just like,

00:19:48 ◼   ► look at our amazing new laptop.

00:19:51 ◼   ► This is the best laptop we've ever made

00:19:52 ◼   ► and we're really proud of it.

00:19:53 ◼   ► They can say all positive things and we'll get the subtext.

00:19:56 ◼   ► The subtext is they're not crap anymore.

00:19:58 ◼   ► And you know, actually, I have to make it not crap, right?

00:20:01 ◼   ► So new keyboard and one new port, that's all we ask

00:20:04 ◼   ► and we'll probably get half of that, so.

00:20:06 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:20:07 ◼   ► Anyway, yeah, we're hungry for new laptops.

00:20:11 ◼   ► Apple tends to make us think when they say like,

00:20:15 ◼   ► this is what all our new laptops will look like

00:20:17 ◼   ► going forward, presumably this is that moment

00:20:19 ◼   ► that we've been waiting for for so long.

00:20:21 ◼   ► So yeah, I think they just need that laptop

00:20:23 ◼   ► and want another thing.

00:20:23 ◼   ► And surely, of all the stuff that was possible

00:20:26 ◼   ► for release in the September event,

00:20:28 ◼   ► one of those things should be ready

00:20:30 ◼   ► to be announced alongside.

00:20:31 ◼   ► Maybe not shipping, I mean, forget about shipping,

00:20:33 ◼   ► but if you got an event, you can announce stuff.

00:20:35 ◼   ► And especially for things like the noise canceling AirPods,

00:20:40 ◼   ► which I remember thinking about that way back when,

00:20:42 ◼   ► like how can you make an AirPod noise canceling?

00:20:44 ◼   ► But I kept thinking of the AirPod as like a current AirPod.

00:20:46 ◼   ► You can't make the current AirPod noise canceling,

00:20:50 ◼   ► I suppose, because it doesn't seal your ear canal.

00:20:53 ◼   ► It just kind of rattles around there, which is fine

00:20:56 ◼   ► when you're just emitting sound.

00:20:57 ◼   ► But if you want to counteract outside sound,

00:20:59 ◼   ► you have to have a much more controlled sort of sound chamber

00:21:02 ◼   ► so you gotta plug it up.

00:21:03 ◼   ► So anyway, the rumors of those things are AirPods

00:21:07 ◼   ► that look more like, I don't know what you would call them.

00:21:09 ◼   ► Are they, they'll call those in-ear?

00:21:11 ◼   ► I think they're just like not quite in-ear,

00:21:13 ◼   ► but squishy into-ear.

00:21:16 ◼   ► - I mean, yeah, they look like PowerBeats,

00:21:18 ◼   ► but without the earhook.

00:21:19 ◼   ► - Yeah, what do you call that style of ear thing?

00:21:22 ◼   ► - I, you know, they're not quite in-ear monitors

00:21:25 ◼   ► 'cause they don't really seal.

00:21:26 ◼   ► - Right.

00:21:27 ◼   ► - I don't actually know what that style,

00:21:29 ◼   ► it's just like, it's a rubber-tipped earbud, basically.

00:21:33 ◼   ► - It used to be the only kind of earbud

00:21:35 ◼   ► before I think they started popularizing,

00:21:37 ◼   ► the kind that don't actually squish

00:21:39 ◼   ► into your ear canal in any way.

00:21:40 ◼   ► Like the AirPods just kind of, you know,

00:21:42 ◼   ► are grasped by the funny little cartilage in your ear

00:21:44 ◼   ► and they just hang out there,

00:21:46 ◼   ► but they don't shove into your ear hole

00:21:47 ◼   ► in any way whatsoever.

00:21:49 ◼   ► But before that, if you had said earbuds,

00:21:51 ◼   ► you would have thought of something

00:21:52 ◼   ► that looks like these AirPods with a little rubbery tip,

00:21:54 ◼   ► maybe changeable tips, maybe that's too much for Apple.

00:21:56 ◼   ► Anyway.

00:21:57 ◼   ► - The PowerBeats have changeable tips.

00:21:59 ◼   ► It's really nice, actually.

00:22:01 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, I suppose they have to make changeable tips

00:22:03 ◼   ► because if it's shoving into your ear canal,

00:22:05 ◼   ► it's harder to come up with a one-size-fits-all,

00:22:07 ◼   ► even harder than it is for the AirPods,

00:22:09 ◼   ► so I suppose it has to be changeable.

00:22:11 ◼   ► - Yeah, and like, this is, I'm actually,

00:22:12 ◼   ► I'm really hoping they ship something like that

00:22:15 ◼   ► because I like the PowerBeats.

00:22:18 ◼   ► So I have both PowerBeats and AirPods.

00:22:20 ◼   ► I don't use the AirPods frequently

00:22:22 ◼   ► because they are not very comfortable on me,

00:22:24 ◼   ► even with the little like aftermarket silicone wraps

00:22:27 ◼   ► that I put around them.

00:22:28 ◼   ► Like, that makes them a little bit better,

00:22:29 ◼   ► but they're still not very comfortable on me.

00:22:31 ◼   ► The PowerBeats, which have those changeable rubber tips,

00:22:34 ◼   ► and they come with three or four sets of them

00:22:36 ◼   ► in different sizes, those fit me very well,

00:22:39 ◼   ► but they have the giant earhook

00:22:41 ◼   ► and the giant case to accommodate that,

00:22:43 ◼   ► and so they're a much bigger thing that's harder to pocket.

00:22:47 ◼   ► If Apple can make something that's close to AirPods

00:22:50 ◼   ► in size and form factor,

00:22:51 ◼   ► that can also have a pocketable case like AirPods do,

00:22:55 ◼   ► but that has that rubber tip for a better,

00:22:57 ◼   ► more comfortable fit, I am so in on that.

00:23:00 ◼   ► I really, really hope they do.

00:23:02 ◼   ► - Yeah, 'cause you always wanted to use the AirPods,

00:23:05 ◼   ► but they don't quite fit your ears,

00:23:06 ◼   ► so this is another chance for Apple to not fit your ears.

00:23:08 ◼   ► - Well, and not only that,

00:23:10 ◼   ► but if they have this kind of changeable tip thing,

00:23:12 ◼   ► that also means that even if Apple totally blows it

00:23:15 ◼   ► and doesn't give you multiple tips,

00:23:16 ◼   ► other people can probably make them and sell them

00:23:18 ◼   ► because they probably will have one of those little like,

00:23:20 ◼   ► like stick port things on it that all these headphones do

00:23:23 ◼   ► that you can, you know, it would take two seconds

00:23:25 ◼   ► for a third party manufacturer to design something

00:23:27 ◼   ► that could fit it if it's any kind of like

00:23:29 ◼   ► removable rubber tip.

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00:25:21 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:25:24 ◼   ► - Can we talk a little bit about,

00:25:25 ◼   ► this has been going around on other podcasts

00:25:27 ◼   ► and in our various slacks,

00:25:28 ◼   ► and I know we talked about it in the past,

00:25:30 ◼   ► but I want to revisit it again.

00:25:31 ◼   ► The idea of, oh, I know IY came up,

00:25:33 ◼   ► 'cause there was a story about how you can get Apple

00:25:35 ◼   ► to replace your AirPod when the batteries go dead.

00:25:38 ◼   ► The idea that AirPods are completely sealed

00:25:41 ◼   ► and you use them and eventually use them

00:25:43 ◼   ► for a certain amount of time

00:25:44 ◼   ► and the battery no longer holds a charge,

00:25:46 ◼   ► and then what recourse do you have?

00:25:47 ◼   ► Because you can't change the batteries.

00:25:48 ◼   ► Apple can't change the batteries.

00:25:50 ◼   ► You just have to essentially either throw them away,

00:25:52 ◼   ► buy new ones, or get them replaced.

00:25:54 ◼   ► And the story, well, we should find a link

00:25:56 ◼   ► for the show notes for this,

00:25:56 ◼   ► but the story was like, if you know the magic words to say,

00:26:00 ◼   ► you can go into an Apple store and be like,

00:26:02 ◼   ► I've had these AirPods for two years

00:26:04 ◼   ► and now they last like 20 minutes.

00:26:06 ◼   ► Can I get a battery service?

00:26:08 ◼   ► Can I get the battery service for them?

00:26:10 ◼   ► And they charge you less than the price of new AirPods

00:26:13 ◼   ► and essentially give you new AirPods.

00:26:14 ◼   ► Like they don't actually change your batteries,

00:26:16 ◼   ► but, and it's not much less than the AirPod.

00:26:19 ◼   ► They get to pay $98 and then you get two refurbished AirPods,

00:26:23 ◼   ► which is cheaper than $160.

00:26:25 ◼   ► So maybe go in and say battery service.

00:26:27 ◼   ► Obviously if your batteries are crappy

00:26:29 ◼   ► within the one year warranty,

00:26:30 ◼   ► they'll just give you new ones for free or whatever.

00:26:32 ◼   ► Like this, we find there are articles to the other options.

00:26:35 ◼   ► But anyway, this is renew the debate about,

00:26:38 ◼   ► is this product a good idea?

00:26:40 ◼   ► Like, yeah, we all love our AirPods,

00:26:41 ◼   ► but it's another Apple thing with sealed batteries.

00:26:45 ◼   ► And unlike some of the other sealed batteries,

00:26:47 ◼   ► this literally can't be replaced

00:26:50 ◼   ► because it's just totally glued in there

00:26:51 ◼   ► and there's no way to get it out

00:26:53 ◼   ► without destroying the thing.

00:26:54 ◼   ► So once those batteries die, which they inevitably will

00:26:58 ◼   ► because the lithium ion batteries only last

00:27:00 ◼   ► a certain number of cycles and then they're no good,

00:27:02 ◼   ► it seems wasteful to throw them out.

00:27:05 ◼   ► Well, let's, I don't wanna say it seems wasteful.

00:27:07 ◼   ► Look, here are the different angles on why it's bad.

00:27:10 ◼   ► One is that it costs you lots of money.

00:27:12 ◼   ► You paid $160 and that lasts you 18 months,

00:27:14 ◼   ► then you have to pay another $160

00:27:16 ◼   ► and then you get 18 months.

00:27:16 ◼   ► That's not a great treadmill to be on.

00:27:19 ◼   ► These are not a cheap product.

00:27:20 ◼   ► No one wants to keep paying for that,

00:27:22 ◼   ► says the person who buys a new phone

00:27:24 ◼   ► for $1,000 every two years.

00:27:25 ◼   ► Anyway.

00:27:26 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:27:27 ◼   ► Or a new computer for 12 grand every 10 years.

00:27:30 ◼   ► Anyway.

00:27:31 ◼   ► - I think you're getting away with just 12.

00:27:32 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:27:33 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's laughable.

00:27:34 ◼   ► - Well, we'll see.

00:27:35 ◼   ► Well, I know.

00:27:36 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:27:37 ◼   ► So that's the cost argument.

00:27:38 ◼   ► It doesn't feel good to spend that money.

00:27:39 ◼   ► Second is environmental argument.

00:27:42 ◼   ► You buy this thing and you just throw it away

00:27:45 ◼   ► and then you buy another one and you throw it away.

00:27:48 ◼   ► Is there a third argument?

00:27:49 ◼   ► Let's see.

00:27:49 ◼   ► You got cost environmental.

00:27:51 ◼   ► There's a right to repair angle.

00:27:54 ◼   ► I mean, I feel like you have the right to try to repair that,

00:27:56 ◼   ► but they're assembled in such a way

00:27:57 ◼   ► that it's not gonna happen.

00:27:59 ◼   ► I mean, yeah, I think those are the two major angles,

00:28:04 ◼   ► cost environmental, unless there's some other thing

00:28:06 ◼   ► that I'm thinking of.

00:28:07 ◼   ► Anyway, I've been thinking about them

00:28:11 ◼   ► and we talked about it last time.

00:28:12 ◼   ► Last time I think where I came down was

00:28:15 ◼   ► I would rather have an AirPod with a changeable battery

00:28:18 ◼   ► on it would be a worse product given the technology

00:28:21 ◼   ► that existed at the time,

00:28:24 ◼   ► because it would have to be bigger and bulkier

00:28:25 ◼   ► and it wouldn't be as sort of, you know,

00:28:28 ◼   ► lightweight and svelte and perfect and beautiful

00:28:30 ◼   ► as the AirPod is.

00:28:32 ◼   ► But we're on our second generation of AirPods now

00:28:35 ◼   ► and it's been a few years.

00:28:37 ◼   ► And I think it's worth revisiting the idea of, you know,

00:28:40 ◼   ► revisiting the idea of these particular harms

00:28:43 ◼   ► and how they could be mitigated.

00:28:45 ◼   ► - I have such mixed feelings about this.

00:28:50 ◼   ► I agree that this is an example of consumerism

00:28:55 ◼   ► kind of run amok.

00:28:56 ◼   ► You know, I happily spent almost $200

00:29:01 ◼   ► on my AirPods 2 with wireless charging case,

00:29:05 ◼   ► just two years after I spent 150 bucks,

00:29:08 ◼   ► whatever it was, on the AirPods 1.

00:29:09 ◼   ► And I use my AirPods every day.

00:29:11 ◼   ► I freaking love these things.

00:29:13 ◼   ► I still think they might be the best Apple product

00:29:16 ◼   ► I've ever purchased.

00:29:17 ◼   ► And if they were made appreciably worse

00:29:21 ◼   ► by having say a removable battery,

00:29:23 ◼   ► that would make me really, really sad.

00:29:26 ◼   ► That being said, it is bananas that in probably

00:29:29 ◼   ► another year and a half or whatever it's been

00:29:30 ◼   ► since I bought this set,

00:29:31 ◼   ► I will be buying yet another set of AirPods.

00:29:34 ◼   ► And it is bananas that the old ones are probably

00:29:37 ◼   ► just gonna end up in a landfill somewhere.

00:29:38 ◼   ► And that's really, really crummy.

00:29:41 ◼   ► - Is it really, really crummy?

00:29:42 ◼   ► How crummy is it?

00:29:44 ◼   ► - Well, I think it's really crummy

00:29:46 ◼   ► from an environmental perspective.

00:29:48 ◼   ► - But why?

00:29:49 ◼   ► - Well, because it's just very wasteful.

00:29:50 ◼   ► - It's very wasteful as compared to what?

00:29:53 ◼   ► - I mean, yeah, I think it pales in comparison

00:29:56 ◼   ► to the other waste that we will generate

00:29:58 ◼   ► over that same timescale.

00:29:59 ◼   ► - Yeah, that's fair.

00:30:00 ◼   ► - How, like, how much mass is in an AirPod?

00:30:03 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:30:04 ◼   ► And how much mass is in every disposable plastic cup

00:30:07 ◼   ► you get from a fast food restaurant in a month or whatever?

00:30:09 ◼   ► Like, AirPods are very small and very light.

00:30:12 ◼   ► Now, there is a manufacturing cost,

00:30:14 ◼   ► 'cause they're not just simple plastic.

00:30:15 ◼   ► Like, there's electronics inside them,

00:30:16 ◼   ► there's mining that goes into that.

00:30:18 ◼   ► There is, they have a hot,

00:30:19 ◼   ► they punch above their weight

00:30:20 ◼   ► in terms of environmental costs.

00:30:22 ◼   ► But the bottom line is, they're very small.

00:30:24 ◼   ► There is very little actual mass in these things.

00:30:27 ◼   ► And when I think about a replaceable battery

00:30:29 ◼   ► from the environmental perspective,

00:30:30 ◼   ► it's like, I mean, like the cost thing aside,

00:30:33 ◼   ► from an environmental perspective,

00:30:34 ◼   ► if you had to throw out,

00:30:35 ◼   ► what percentage of the mass of AirPods

00:30:38 ◼   ► do you think the battery is?

00:30:40 ◼   ► Over 50, surely, right?

00:30:42 ◼   ► 60, 70%, 80% of the mass is battery?

00:30:46 ◼   ► So if you're like, this isn't wasteful,

00:30:47 ◼   ► I'll just put in a new battery.

00:30:48 ◼   ► You're basically throwing away 80% of the device anyway.

00:30:53 ◼   ► And it's not a particularly environmentally friendly 80%,

00:30:56 ◼   ► because lithium ion batteries

00:30:57 ◼   ► are not great at sitting in a landfill.

00:30:59 ◼   ► But mass-wise, as compared to almost anything else

00:31:04 ◼   ► that we consume and throw out,

00:31:05 ◼   ► a wrapper, a waste, packaging, whatever from,

00:31:09 ◼   ► it's so small.

00:31:10 ◼   ► Every two years, you throw out like the equivalent

00:31:13 ◼   ► of 1/18th of a golf ball worth of industrial waste.

00:31:17 ◼   ► That's nothing compared to the amount of crap

00:31:19 ◼   ► that the average person throws out.

00:31:21 ◼   ► And how many AirPods are there in the world

00:31:23 ◼   ► given that they're like a $200 wireless earbud

00:31:27 ◼   ► that nobody actually really needs?

00:31:29 ◼   ► Again, as compared to like anything else

00:31:32 ◼   ► that you can imagine, plastic shopping bags

00:31:34 ◼   ► before they were banned everywhere,

00:31:36 ◼   ► cups, fast food cups, containers,

00:31:38 ◼   ► like just all the plastic stuff

00:31:41 ◼   ► that comes in the packaging of all the food that we buy,

00:31:43 ◼   ► every package thing of strawberries

00:31:45 ◼   ► and blueberries or whatever.

00:31:47 ◼   ► And yeah, some of that can be recycled

00:31:48 ◼   ► and see that depressing, what was that?

00:31:51 ◼   ► 99% invisible, I forget.

00:31:52 ◼   ► Some depressing podcast episode

00:31:53 ◼   ► about exactly how grim the recycling situation is.

00:31:56 ◼   ► But bottom line is AirPods are really small.

00:31:58 ◼   ► Now, I'm not saying we should throw them out.

00:32:00 ◼   ► I'm saying of all the things

00:32:01 ◼   ► that you should be concerned about waste-wise,

00:32:03 ◼   ► I feel like you can offset that waste

00:32:05 ◼   ► by buying three fewer plastic cups per every two years.

00:32:10 ◼   ► And you've offset most of the plastic.

00:32:14 ◼   ► The manufacturing and the sort of the microchip part

00:32:18 ◼   ► of that or whatever, I can see where,

00:32:21 ◼   ► again, it punches above its weight

00:32:22 ◼   ► in terms of how much energy it takes

00:32:23 ◼   ► to actually create these things and all the mining involved.

00:32:26 ◼   ► But it's still so tiny,

00:32:28 ◼   ► so tiny compared to almost anything else.

00:32:31 ◼   ► The old laptop that you have,

00:32:32 ◼   ► how much more electronics is in an old laptop

00:32:35 ◼   ► that you're no longer using

00:32:36 ◼   ► that you maybe didn't throw away

00:32:38 ◼   ► because you remembered how much it costs,

00:32:39 ◼   ► but bottom line is you're gonna eventually throw it away

00:32:41 ◼   ► if you didn't sell it immediately

00:32:42 ◼   ► because it becomes obsolete.

00:32:44 ◼   ► And phone's the same deal.

00:32:45 ◼   ► Like it's just AirPods, environmentally speaking,

00:32:48 ◼   ► I'm not saying it doesn't matter.

00:32:50 ◼   ► I'm saying it is not the top of my list for concern.

00:32:55 ◼   ► And furthermore, that replaceable batteries

00:32:57 ◼   ► does not really help the environmental story for these.

00:33:00 ◼   ► Like lithium ion batteries are not great for the environment

00:33:03 ◼   ► because they have a limited number of charge cycles,

00:33:05 ◼   ► and when they're done,

00:33:05 ◼   ► we don't have a good way to dispose of them.

00:33:08 ◼   ► Again, a single Nissan Leaf that didn't come

00:33:11 ◼   ► with climate control for the battery to save costs

00:33:14 ◼   ► and therefore destroys its battery

00:33:16 ◼   ► in like three to five years,

00:33:18 ◼   ► how many AirPods worth of lithium ion battery cells

00:33:21 ◼   ► are in a Nissan Leaf?

00:33:22 ◼   ► All of them?

00:33:23 ◼   ► All the AirPods ever manufactured?

00:33:25 ◼   ► I don't know.

00:33:26 ◼   ► - Maybe.

00:33:27 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:33:28 ◼   ► - So I don't think there's a good solution

00:33:31 ◼   ► to the environmental thing.

00:33:33 ◼   ► Even replaceable batteries,

00:33:34 ◼   ► although it would make people feel better,

00:33:36 ◼   ► doesn't actually solve the environmental impact of AirPods,

00:33:38 ◼   ► which itself is tiny.

00:33:41 ◼   ► - Yeah, you make a really good point.

00:33:42 ◼   ► And can we just address that you and I drive combustion cars

00:33:47 ◼   ► because anytime anyone says anything about the environment,

00:33:50 ◼   ► then we have to address the fact that we drive a car

00:33:52 ◼   ► that does not burn electricity, good grief,

00:33:55 ◼   ► that does not use electricity.

00:33:56 ◼   ► Like can we just--

00:33:57 ◼   ► - That's incredible mileage.

00:33:59 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:34:00 ◼   ► It's like a 1.5 liter four cylinder, naturally aspirated.

00:34:03 ◼   ► Come on.

00:34:04 ◼   ► - You get a lot better mileage than me.

00:34:05 ◼   ► But yes, the thing is, you can what about your way

00:34:10 ◼   ► all the way down when it comes to really anything,

00:34:12 ◼   ► but particularly the environmental stuff.

00:34:14 ◼   ► And I am just so tired of hearing what about your car.

00:34:18 ◼   ► But anyway, to come back to the actual point,

00:34:21 ◼   ► you make a very good point actually,

00:34:23 ◼   ► that these things in terms of mass alone are not big.

00:34:26 ◼   ► And even if millions upon millions of them

00:34:28 ◼   ► have been produced, well, there's been millions

00:34:30 ◼   ► and millions of of a cords produced,

00:34:33 ◼   ► and we don't know where all of that scrap metal ended up.

00:34:35 ◼   ► And we don't know where all of the car batteries

00:34:37 ◼   ► that have ever been replaced in the history of time

00:34:39 ◼   ► have ended up.

00:34:40 ◼   ► We don't know where Marco's prior Tesla's battery pack

00:34:43 ◼   ► ended up.

00:34:44 ◼   ► And so, yeah, I think you're right.

00:34:46 ◼   ► And maybe it's one of these things

00:34:48 ◼   ► that I'm majoring on a minor.

00:34:50 ◼   ► Well, I mean, I don't, I'm not really,

00:34:53 ◼   ► my engine is not really that revved one way or another

00:34:55 ◼   ► about this, but for the purposes of this discussion,

00:34:58 ◼   ► maybe I'm majoring on a minor when it comes to the AirPods.

00:35:01 ◼   ► I do think it is unfortunate that there is no way

00:35:04 ◼   ► to keep them going.

00:35:05 ◼   ► You know, the advantage of say my car and yours, John,

00:35:08 ◼   ► and maybe Marco's, is that even when we're done with them,

00:35:12 ◼   ► in theory, they can continue on in the hands of somebody else

00:35:16 ◼   ► and continue to be used as a car.

00:35:18 ◼   ► And then hopefully, eventually,

00:35:20 ◼   ► when they are no longer being used by someone else,

00:35:22 ◼   ► they will be piecemeal, taken apart,

00:35:25 ◼   ► and used in other cars or sold for scrap metal

00:35:28 ◼   ► or what have you.

00:35:29 ◼   ► But I just, I kind of wish, it's so hard,

00:35:33 ◼   ► because I kind of wish that I had a computer

00:35:37 ◼   ► with a removable battery, for example,

00:35:39 ◼   ► so I could easily prolong the life of that computer

00:35:42 ◼   ► and do that myself.

00:35:43 ◼   ► You know, my first Mac laptop had a removable battery,

00:35:46 ◼   ► if I'm not mistaken, and it eventually swelled, swelled?

00:35:50 ◼   ► Swelled?

00:35:51 ◼   ► And swelled.

00:35:51 ◼   ► - Swelled as something else.

00:35:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, yeah, something else in time.

00:35:54 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah, I went to the gym, got real swole.

00:35:57 ◼   ► Anyway, it eventually swelled and it got replaced,

00:35:59 ◼   ► and it was pretty easy, and I kind of missed those days,

00:36:02 ◼   ► but that being said,

00:36:03 ◼   ► I freaking love carrying my MacBook Adorable.

00:36:06 ◼   ► I freaking love that my AirPods fit

00:36:08 ◼   ► in the little change pocket in my jeans,

00:36:10 ◼   ► and neither of those things would be true,

00:36:12 ◼   ► to your point, John, if they were easily serviceable.

00:36:16 ◼   ► - Yeah, so the cost angle is the other part of this.

00:36:18 ◼   ► Like, set aside the environmental thing.

00:36:21 ◼   ► I feel like, you know, the environmental thing,

00:36:24 ◼   ► we're stuck due to battery technology,

00:36:25 ◼   ► no matter what Apple does.

00:36:27 ◼   ► If they had 100% replaceable batteries,

00:36:30 ◼   ► it wouldn't help the environmental factor,

00:36:31 ◼   ► but if they had 100% replaceable batteries,

00:36:34 ◼   ► it could definitely, if Apple prices it right,

00:36:36 ◼   ► help the cost, because although the battery is

00:36:40 ◼   ► over 50% of the mass of AirPods,

00:36:43 ◼   ► it is not over 50% of the cost, I would imagine.

00:36:45 ◼   ► Maybe I'm wrong.

00:36:46 ◼   ► Maybe I'm overestimating how much

00:36:48 ◼   ► the integrated circuits in it cost,

00:36:50 ◼   ► but either way, I feel like if Apple wanted

00:36:53 ◼   ► to do the right thing and make people happier

00:36:56 ◼   ► with their AirPods, it eventually came out well

00:36:57 ◼   ► in the removable batteries.

00:36:58 ◼   ► When the batteries died, as they definitely will

00:37:01 ◼   ► with current lithium ion technology in a year or two,

00:37:04 ◼   ► you know, when they get so annoyingly run down,

00:37:08 ◼   ► Apple could sell you new batteries for a reasonable price.

00:37:12 ◼   ► I don't know, 50 bucks, maybe, 60 bucks

00:37:15 ◼   ► for two of them for a pair, like, you know,

00:37:18 ◼   ► that's, I feel like the margins on that would be good,

00:37:20 ◼   ► given the size of these batteries, right?

00:37:22 ◼   ► You know, as Marco would know,

00:37:24 ◼   ► how big a lithium ion battery can you get

00:37:26 ◼   ► for one of your weird flashlights?

00:37:27 ◼   ► How much mass is in that battery

00:37:29 ◼   ► as compared to how much mass is in the Apple ones?

00:37:30 ◼   ► I know the Apple ones are odd shape,

00:37:32 ◼   ► and the Apple, you know, anyway,

00:37:33 ◼   ► feel like there's plenty of profit margin in that,

00:37:35 ◼   ► and you could bring in your AirPods

00:37:36 ◼   ► when you buy the new ones,

00:37:38 ◼   ► and give Apple your old batteries,

00:37:39 ◼   ► which they could then, I don't know, try to recycle?

00:37:41 ◼   ► Is there some way to recycle

00:37:43 ◼   ► lithium ion batteries, presumably?

00:37:45 ◼   ► - Yes, in general.

00:37:46 ◼   ► I mean, I don't know about these specific ones

00:37:48 ◼   ► that they're using in AirPods,

00:37:49 ◼   ► but yes, you can, like, you know,

00:37:50 ◼   ► extract some stuff out of lithium ion batteries.

00:37:52 ◼   ► - Yeah, I mean, again, the mass is so small

00:37:53 ◼   ► that it may not be economically worthwhile to do that,

00:37:56 ◼   ► but it's the right thing to do,

00:37:57 ◼   ► and it will get, if you get people into your store,

00:38:00 ◼   ► and they're willing to, you know, again,

00:38:01 ◼   ► this is the fictional AirPod

00:38:03 ◼   ► with an unscrewable battery stick thingy.

00:38:06 ◼   ► Go into the store, give 'em 60 bucks,

00:38:08 ◼   ► give 'em your old little sticks, screw in the new ones.

00:38:10 ◼   ► Now, what you're actually doing is you're saving,

00:38:12 ◼   ► like, once you unscrew the battery part,

00:38:14 ◼   ► and you realize, this is what I'm saving?

00:38:16 ◼   ► These two little turds here that weigh like nothing?

00:38:18 ◼   ► It's like, yeah, that's where all

00:38:19 ◼   ► the amazing, magical smarts are.

00:38:22 ◼   ► You could prolong the life of your AirPods

00:38:24 ◼   ► until they eventually die from earwax impaction,

00:38:27 ◼   ► as all AirPods, I presume, will eventually.

00:38:31 ◼   ► Just keep shoving 'em in your ears,

00:38:33 ◼   ► and they get pushed into that little mesh grill,

00:38:35 ◼   ► and anyway, right to repair and right to remove earwax.

00:38:40 ◼   ► You need to be openable.

00:38:43 ◼   ► But, you know, I feel like that is a worthy endeavor,

00:38:47 ◼   ► because it makes a product

00:38:48 ◼   ► that people will be more satisfied with.

00:38:50 ◼   ► Apple, like, oh, doesn't Apple,

00:38:52 ◼   ► Apple wants you to buy a new $160 one.

00:38:54 ◼   ► I think Apple would be fine with you buying

00:38:56 ◼   ► very high-margin $60 lithium-ion batteries

00:39:00 ◼   ► that weigh as much as a bird's feather every 18 months.

00:39:04 ◼   ► They would be better with you buying AirPods every 18 months,

00:39:09 ◼   ► but unless they can keep adding new features,

00:39:10 ◼   ► that road is harder for Apple to go down,

00:39:15 ◼   ► to say, every year, we're gonna give you a reason

00:39:17 ◼   ► to buy, you know, a brand, or every 18 months,

00:39:20 ◼   ► we're gonna give you an actual, real reason

00:39:22 ◼   ► why you want to buy a new pair of AirPods.

00:39:24 ◼   ► Instead, right now, we have to buy new AirPods

00:39:28 ◼   ► if we wanna keep using them,

00:39:28 ◼   ► because the battery ends up lasting 20 minutes,

00:39:30 ◼   ► and that really just makes them not useful

00:39:33 ◼   ► for their intended purpose for most people.

00:39:35 ◼   ► So, I'm rooting for Apple to get replaceable batteries

00:39:39 ◼   ► in their AirPods eventually,

00:39:41 ◼   ► but not really for environmental reasons.

00:39:43 ◼   ► - We are sponsored this week by Fracture,

00:39:46 ◼   ► who takes your photos and prints them in vivid color

00:39:49 ◼   ► directly onto glass.

00:39:51 ◼   ► Almost all of us take photos,

00:39:53 ◼   ► and usually what we do is we share them somewhere online,

00:39:56 ◼   ► and then they disappear off the social feed

00:39:59 ◼   ► after, what, a day?

00:40:00 ◼   ► And you never see them again.

00:40:02 ◼   ► Almost none of the pictures that we take

00:40:04 ◼   ► really end up printed, even fewer of them

00:40:07 ◼   ► end up being displayed and enjoyed anywhere

00:40:09 ◼   ► past that first day.

00:40:10 ◼   ► Focus on the moments that mean the most in your life

00:40:13 ◼   ► by turning your favorite digital memories

00:40:14 ◼   ► into meaningful photo decor.

00:40:17 ◼   ► Fracture prints are made by printing directly onto glass.

00:40:20 ◼   ► The prints look fantastic.

00:40:22 ◼   ► The colors really pop,

00:40:23 ◼   ► and it's printed edge to edge on this glass.

00:40:26 ◼   ► And so it's own self-contained decoration.

00:40:29 ◼   ► You don't have to get it framed.

00:40:30 ◼   ► In fact, I don't think you really could.

00:40:32 ◼   ► You don't have to do anything else to it.

00:40:34 ◼   ► It is the standalone edge to edge print

00:40:36 ◼   ► on this piece of glass.

00:40:37 ◼   ► Lots of different sizes, from big to small,

00:40:39 ◼   ► square and rectangle.

00:40:40 ◼   ► And I gotta say, we have these all over the place.

00:40:42 ◼   ► We have, I think I have seven of them

00:40:44 ◼   ► in the office right now.

00:40:45 ◼   ► Plus I have them, we have a few in the rest of the house.

00:40:48 ◼   ► Different sizes, huge to tiny.

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00:40:55 ◼   ► that's an emotionally important gift to somebody.

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00:41:02 ◼   ► If you're gonna send a gift to friends or family,

00:41:06 ◼   ► you can send them a photo that really means something

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00:41:43 ◼   ► Once again, fractureme.com/atp.

00:41:46 ◼   ► Thank you so much to Fracture for sponsoring our show.

00:41:49 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

00:41:52 ◼   ► - Let's talk about Catalina.

00:41:53 ◼   ► We glanced off of this earlier.

00:41:55 ◼   ► I had told you to recap from just a little while ago

00:41:58 ◼   ► that I do have it on my MacBook Adorable.

00:42:00 ◼   ► I do not yet have it on my iMac.

00:42:02 ◼   ► And so far so good, just a few days in.

00:42:04 ◼   ► I also wanted to quickly, before I pitch to you guys

00:42:07 ◼   ► and ask what your status is,

00:42:09 ◼   ► I wanted to say that having just reformatted,

00:42:13 ◼   ► to use Windows-ism, reformatted both of my computers

00:42:17 ◼   ► and started from scratch, surprisingly refreshing.

00:42:20 ◼   ► I feel like the iMac in particular

00:42:24 ◼   ► had a lot of cruft and garbage and junk on it

00:42:28 ◼   ► that I didn't even, couldn't even keep track of.

00:42:31 ◼   ► And I don't know what about it.

00:42:34 ◼   ► Maybe it's again, all a placebo,

00:42:35 ◼   ► but having this like new fresh installation,

00:42:38 ◼   ► even of Mojave, has felt really, really good.

00:42:41 ◼   ► And I really, really recommend it

00:42:43 ◼   ► if you haven't done this in a long time.

00:42:44 ◼   ► And I'd be curious, Marco,

00:42:46 ◼   ► particularly when I stop talking,

00:42:48 ◼   ► how you feel about the idea of doing that.

00:42:50 ◼   ► Because last I had heard, I thought Marco,

00:42:52 ◼   ► you and maybe John as well,

00:42:54 ◼   ► were carrying basically a build that had been migrated

00:42:57 ◼   ► from, I don't know, 15 years ago,

00:43:00 ◼   ► carrying it through all the way to your iMac Pro today.

00:43:02 ◼   ► And as a final quick note,

00:43:05 ◼   ► I wanted to call attention to Homebrew Bundle,

00:43:09 ◼   ► which I wrote a small blog post about this week,

00:43:11 ◼   ► and I'll link that as well.

00:43:12 ◼   ► But Homebrew Bundle is kind of like a bundler for Ruby gems,

00:43:15 ◼   ► if you're familiar with that at all,

00:43:16 ◼   ► and basically lets you put together a file

00:43:19 ◼   ► that Homebrew will use to look at,

00:43:21 ◼   ► to install a whole bunch of software on your computer.

00:43:23 ◼   ► And that doesn't necessarily mean just command line stuff.

00:43:25 ◼   ► It can be Mac App Store stuff, it can be GUI stuff,

00:43:29 ◼   ► all sorts of different things.

00:43:30 ◼   ► And I found that having done this

00:43:33 ◼   ► and worked out exactly what I wanted in my brew file,

00:43:36 ◼   ► as they call it,

00:43:37 ◼   ► working out exactly what I wanted my brew file for the iMac

00:43:42 ◼   ► and getting it kind of locked in there,

00:43:44 ◼   ► it made it that much easier and less daunting

00:43:46 ◼   ► to go ahead and refresh and reformat my MacBook Adorable,

00:43:51 ◼   ► because all I had to do was run this brew file

00:43:53 ◼   ► I just worked on the week prior,

00:43:55 ◼   ► and 90% of the stuff I needed was automatically installed,

00:43:58 ◼   ► which was really, really great.

00:43:59 ◼   ► So let me start with Marco, two questions.

00:44:01 ◼   ► One, are you running Catalina, and if so, where?

00:44:04 ◼   ► And two, are you still carrying around

00:44:07 ◼   ► a 10 or 15 year old builds, for lack of a better term?

00:44:11 ◼   ► - So in typical style,

00:44:12 ◼   ► I'm going to answer your second question first,

00:44:14 ◼   ► and answer your first question later.

00:44:15 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:44:16 ◼   ► Second question is,

00:44:18 ◼   ► am I still carrying the same installation?

00:44:19 ◼   ► Yes.

00:44:21 ◼   ► I've had two unique Mac desktop installations

00:44:25 ◼   ► during my Mac using career since 2006,

00:44:30 ◼   ► since 2004, rather.

00:44:31 ◼   ► I forget when I did the second one, but it's old.

00:44:35 ◼   ► So I did one for a few years, then reset it,

00:44:37 ◼   ► did a fresh one, but last time I did the fresh one

00:44:40 ◼   ► was a long time ago.

00:44:41 ◼   ► To answer your first question a little bit later,

00:44:45 ◼   ► before that, to jump back for a second,

00:44:46 ◼   ► your homebrew thing.

00:44:48 ◼   ► So I read this blog post, I was very interested

00:44:50 ◼   ► because as you mentioned,

00:44:51 ◼   ► that it doesn't just install command line stuff,

00:44:53 ◼   ► I'm really curious to learn about how it can also install

00:44:56 ◼   ► other apps that are not,

00:44:57 ◼   ► that are in the Mac App Store and stuff.

00:44:59 ◼   ► But my concern, or my hesitation before I invest

00:45:02 ◼   ► any time into this, the idea of having a script

00:45:06 ◼   ► to set up a fresh installation of Mac OS,

00:45:09 ◼   ► I love that idea.

00:45:10 ◼   ► I tried making one of those, using homebrew

00:45:12 ◼   ► for some of my command line stuff, you know,

00:45:14 ◼   ► about a year ago.

00:45:16 ◼   ► And as has been the case with most package managers ever,

00:45:21 ◼   ► and especially for me with homebrew,

00:45:25 ◼   ► it seems like if I write the script, get it all working,

00:45:30 ◼   ► and then I buy a new computer in six months,

00:45:35 ◼   ► the chances of the script still working are extremely low.

00:45:39 ◼   ► And the chances that I'm gonna have to mess with it

00:45:41 ◼   ► and fix things that have broken in the meantime

00:45:44 ◼   ► is almost 100%.

00:45:45 ◼   ► And therefore-- - Well of course you have

00:45:46 ◼   ► to have a new version of your package manager

00:45:48 ◼   ► for the new OS, so just do that before you get it set up.

00:45:50 ◼   ► - Right, and so, but it's like,

00:45:52 ◼   ► this gets me every time with package manager stuff,

00:45:54 ◼   ► and especially with homebrew.

00:45:56 ◼   ► Homebrew is so bad about this,

00:45:57 ◼   ► 'cause they change stuff so often.

00:45:59 ◼   ► Like, I have a really hard time getting excited

00:46:03 ◼   ► about this stuff, because I don't need to set up,

00:46:05 ◼   ► like if I had to set up five computers this week,

00:46:08 ◼   ► I would get one of these going,

00:46:09 ◼   ► if I didn't have any kind of other automation thing,

00:46:11 ◼   ► I would get one of these things going, and that'd be great.

00:46:13 ◼   ► But for my actual need for it,

00:46:16 ◼   ► which is setting up a new computer maybe once or twice a year

00:46:19 ◼   ► it's so unlikely that it's actually gonna end up

00:46:22 ◼   ► saving me time, because I have to mess with it

00:46:24 ◼   ► the next time I actually have to use it, 'cause it breaks.

00:46:26 ◼   ► - You know, I hear you, I really honestly do,

00:46:28 ◼   ► and all I can tell you is that I first started working

00:46:32 ◼   ► on a brew file like a year and a half ago,

00:46:34 ◼   ► maybe two years ago, when I was at my jobby job,

00:46:37 ◼   ► my last jobby job, and I think I did have to make

00:46:40 ◼   ► a couple of small changes, and as I've lamented before,

00:46:44 ◼   ► homebrew is a blessing and a curse,

00:46:46 ◼   ► like the error messaging is both obnoxious

00:46:49 ◼   ► and not very useful, and there were a couple of things

00:46:52 ◼   ► that I needed to tweak, but it was very, very low impact,

00:46:56 ◼   ► and for me, I still had this brew file from like,

00:47:00 ◼   ► I don't know, 18, 24 months ago,

00:47:02 ◼   ► and it almost entirely worked as is.

00:47:04 ◼   ► So I totally sympathize with what you're saying,

00:47:07 ◼   ► you are not wrong, but there's not a lot

00:47:09 ◼   ► to these brew files, it's not like I'm running shell scripts

00:47:11 ◼   ► or anything like that, which actually those don't really

00:47:13 ◼   ► change over time, but you get my point, right,

00:47:15 ◼   ► that there's not a lot of execution that's happening here,

00:47:18 ◼   ► I'm just pointing homebrew at a bunch of different

00:47:20 ◼   ► either Mac App Store IDs or brew package names

00:47:24 ◼   ► or whatever the case may be, and it's just going

00:47:27 ◼   ► to fetch them, so there's so little,

00:47:29 ◼   ► there's so many, there's so little moving parts

00:47:32 ◼   ► in the brew file, obviously there's a ton of moving parts

00:47:34 ◼   ► behind the scenes, but in the brew file itself,

00:47:35 ◼   ► there's so few moving parts that I'm not too worried

00:47:38 ◼   ► about keeping it up to date between OS releases,

00:47:40 ◼   ► but again, I totally hear what you're saying,

00:47:42 ◼   ► and especially if you're the kind of person

00:47:44 ◼   ► that only does this once every five years,

00:47:47 ◼   ► then this is kind of useless, but for me,

00:47:50 ◼   ► I like having this as a tool in my tool belt,

00:47:53 ◼   ► so if I get a new 16-inch laptop, for example,

00:47:56 ◼   ► I can just run this file and it will make all my software

00:48:00 ◼   ► just get magically installed in one shot,

00:48:02 ◼   ► and Marco, as someone who buys computers as often

00:48:05 ◼   ► as I change underwear, this seems like something

00:48:07 ◼   ► that might appeal to you.

00:48:07 ◼   ► (laughing)

00:48:09 ◼   ► - You change underwear about once a year?

00:48:10 ◼   ► - Yeah, I was waiting for that, I was waiting for it,

00:48:13 ◼   ► fair play, fair play.

00:48:14 ◼   ► - Yeah, and to be fair, while I just said that

00:48:17 ◼   ► I hardly ever change over and start fresh

00:48:19 ◼   ► on my main desktop Mac, I usually will start

00:48:22 ◼   ► any laptop I get fresh, and I usually do buy

00:48:25 ◼   ► about one laptop a year, so it's, yeah,

00:48:28 ◼   ► I do need this, but I need it just infrequently enough,

00:48:32 ◼   ► like about once a year, maybe twice if it's a really

00:48:34 ◼   ► crazy year, or maybe every two years if I'm exercising

00:48:37 ◼   ► some self-control, but I need it infrequently enough

00:48:40 ◼   ► that it usually breaks and it drives me nuts,

00:48:42 ◼   ► but anyway, so going back to your original question

00:48:44 ◼   ► about Catalina, I have not yet installed it,

00:48:48 ◼   ► I installed the early betas here and there

00:48:50 ◼   ► like on second partitions, but I have not upgraded

00:48:52 ◼   ► my main partitions to them, I didn't even keep up

00:48:54 ◼   ► with the betas, I eventually just stopped caring

00:48:55 ◼   ► and have just abandoned those partitions.

00:48:58 ◼   ► I haven't booted into Catalina in months now,

00:49:02 ◼   ► because ultimately, the only reason I wanted to boot

00:49:04 ◼   ► into it was to develop for Catalyst, or play with

00:49:07 ◼   ► SwiftUI live previewing, and I quickly learned

00:49:10 ◼   ► that A, I wouldn't have time for either of those things

00:49:13 ◼   ► this summer or fall, and B, I quickly learned

00:49:17 ◼   ► those things were very, very, very early,

00:49:19 ◼   ► I had still lots of problems, and so I didn't want

00:49:21 ◼   ► to get into it yet, so I'm mainly looking at Catalina now

00:49:25 ◼   ► as a user, not as a developer, and as a user,

00:49:30 ◼   ► there are so many downsides and removals

00:49:35 ◼   ► and somewhat hostile changes in Catalina.

00:49:39 ◼   ► - Such as what?

00:49:41 ◼   ► - Well, all the permissions stuff, all the 32-bit apps

00:49:44 ◼   ► breaking, all of the new dialogs and exceptions,

00:49:48 ◼   ► a lot of stuff has changed under the hood

00:49:50 ◼   ► for various reasons, the new partition thing,

00:49:53 ◼   ► which might, who knows what little problems

00:49:56 ◼   ► that might cause for various scripts

00:49:57 ◼   ► and other apps and everything, all the crazy stuff

00:50:01 ◼   ► you have to do to get terminal to work correctly,

00:50:03 ◼   ► they changed my shell on me, there's so many changes

00:50:06 ◼   ► that are going to be little pains in the ass to me

00:50:09 ◼   ► that I have to look at the other side and say,

00:50:12 ◼   ► all right, what's the benefit here,

00:50:14 ◼   ► what am I getting for this?

00:50:16 ◼   ► And there's also the risk, by the way, of quality issues.

00:50:21 ◼   ► Like, it's very clear that Apple has released

00:50:24 ◼   ► all the software this fall, not because it's ready,

00:50:28 ◼   ► not because it's good, but because it was time.

00:50:32 ◼   ► And so, as a user, I'm not particularly excited

00:50:37 ◼   ► to jump into this, I'm scared about it,

00:50:40 ◼   ► because I know that there is going to be regressions,

00:50:45 ◼   ► there's going to be feature losses,

00:50:46 ◼   ► I'm going to probably have to replace some old software,

00:50:49 ◼   ► or I might not even know that very quickly,

00:50:51 ◼   ► it might take a while to even realize that,

00:50:54 ◼   ► I know there's going to be some friction involved

00:50:55 ◼   ► in getting through all the apps, permissions, dialogs,

00:50:59 ◼   ► and fixing terminal, all this stuff,

00:51:01 ◼   ► I'm going to have to probably fix my PHP

00:51:03 ◼   ► and Nginx setup again, using Homebrew

00:51:06 ◼   ► to rewrite my entire script again.

00:51:09 ◼   ► Like, this happens with every OS.

00:51:11 ◼   ► So, there is a significant cost to me as a user,

00:51:16 ◼   ► and I look at, well, okay, what am I getting for it?

00:51:20 ◼   ► And I just don't see it, I'm not motivated at all,

00:51:23 ◼   ► I'm not excited, I don't want to jump into it,

00:51:26 ◼   ► because it seems like what you're getting with Catalina is,

00:51:30 ◼   ► Apple really needs a lot of this stuff.

00:51:33 ◼   ► Like, it benefits Apple to remove all this crap

00:51:37 ◼   ► and change all this stuff and lock everything down even more.

00:51:41 ◼   ► Does it really benefit me?

00:51:43 ◼   ► I'm not sure a lot of it does.

00:51:45 ◼   ► And so, for me, there's just not enough carrot

00:51:50 ◼   ► to take the stick, I guess.

00:51:51 ◼   ► Like, there's not enough good stuff here

00:51:54 ◼   ► to motivate me to want to update,

00:51:56 ◼   ► and not to mention the fact that I'm concerned about quality

00:51:59 ◼   ► and so, you know, I will eventually update to it.

00:52:02 ◼   ► I might last another like, you know, point one or point two,

00:52:07 ◼   ► and I'm sure whenever the new laptops come out,

00:52:09 ◼   ► I'm gonna buy it immediately,

00:52:11 ◼   ► and so I'll have Catalina on that.

00:52:13 ◼   ► But, you know, otherwise, like on my desktop,

00:52:17 ◼   ► I'm not motivated yet to upgrade,

00:52:19 ◼   ► because there just seems to be not enough upside,

00:52:22 ◼   ► and there's significant possible downsides.

00:52:25 ◼   ► - You know, I think the key thing you just said

00:52:28 ◼   ► was on my desktop, because the one thing

00:52:30 ◼   ► that I really was enthusiastic about putting Catalina

00:52:34 ◼   ► on my MacBook was Sidecar, which is the Luna Display-esque,

00:52:39 ◼   ► you know, use your iPad as a secondary display

00:52:43 ◼   ► when you're perhaps away from the house.

00:52:45 ◼   ► So, as an example, I did not use it this morning,

00:52:47 ◼   ► but this would have been the sort of time I would have.

00:52:49 ◼   ► I went to Wegmans, which is a local fancy pants grocery store

00:52:53 ◼   ► kind of in the vein of Whole Foods, if you will,

00:52:55 ◼   ► and I was sitting in their little like cafe area,

00:52:58 ◼   ► and I was using both my laptop and my iPad.

00:53:00 ◼   ► Now, today, it just so happened

00:53:02 ◼   ► I was doing different things on both,

00:53:03 ◼   ► but generally speaking, especially if you have,

00:53:05 ◼   ► oh, I don't know, a 12-inch laptop,

00:53:08 ◼   ► that would have been the perfect opportunity to use Sidecar.

00:53:12 ◼   ► And I am really excited to use it.

00:53:15 ◼   ► I did use it very briefly when I first installed Catalina

00:53:17 ◼   ► just to try it out, and in the literally five minutes

00:53:20 ◼   ► I used it, it seemed to work really, really well.

00:53:23 ◼   ► And so, I think if you're the kind of person

00:53:26 ◼   ► who likes having two displays when you're,

00:53:29 ◼   ► I don't know, on a graycation,

00:53:31 ◼   ► then maybe you would enjoy Catalina on a laptop,

00:53:34 ◼   ► but I think that's ultimately why I am not in a huge rush

00:53:38 ◼   ► to put it on my iMac.

00:53:39 ◼   ► Like, of course, I want the new Shiny,

00:53:41 ◼   ► but to your point, Marco, on a desktop anyway,

00:53:44 ◼   ► there's nothing that I can think of off the top of my head

00:53:46 ◼   ► that I can point to that makes me say,

00:53:48 ◼   ► this is what I need Catalina for, and I need it for now.

00:53:51 ◼   ► It's my OS, and I want it now.

00:53:54 ◼   ► So, I'm curious how long both of us last before our iMacs,

00:53:58 ◼   ► well, in your case, iMac Pro, gets Catalina.

00:54:02 ◼   ► Any other thoughts before we punt to Jon?

00:54:04 ◼   ► - I mean, I think what's gonna finally make me do it

00:54:07 ◼   ► is when I wanna start playing with Catalyst.

00:54:10 ◼   ► Overcast, I'm finally catching up with some of the stuff

00:54:12 ◼   ► I wanna do this summer, and I would still like

00:54:16 ◼   ► to do a Catalyst app.

00:54:18 ◼   ► I still have a lot of work to do before that's a good idea,

00:54:21 ◼   ► but I'm probably gonna do it over the next month or two.

00:54:24 ◼   ► So, I'm guessing I'm probably gonna upgrade,

00:54:27 ◼   ► I don't know, in a month or two.

00:54:29 ◼   ► - That's fair, and sitting here now,

00:54:32 ◼   ► to the best you're willing to share,

00:54:33 ◼   ► you view Catalyst and a Mac app as more important

00:54:37 ◼   ► or interesting to you than doing something with SwiftUI?

00:54:41 ◼   ► - At this point, yes.

00:54:42 ◼   ► I think Catalyst is going to change over the next few years,

00:54:47 ◼   ► a lot less than SwiftUI will.

00:54:51 ◼   ► It seems very clear, looking at what they've done

00:54:54 ◼   ► with Catalyst, and what's considered okay,

00:54:57 ◼   ► and what's some things that seem not okay

00:55:02 ◼   ► that they're considering okay.

00:55:04 ◼   ► It seems clear to me that Catalyst is not gonna be

00:55:07 ◼   ► an area of heavy investment for Apple.

00:55:10 ◼   ► That what they really, I think the direction

00:55:12 ◼   ► they're trying to go is SwiftUI.

00:55:14 ◼   ► 'Cause SwiftUI, Catalyst is like,

00:55:16 ◼   ► let's put iPad code in a window and very lightly

00:55:21 ◼   ► reskin some parts of it to be kind of Mac-like.

00:55:25 ◼   ► Whereas SwiftUI is, let's let people write

00:55:30 ◼   ► higher level code that doesn't give a lot of the specifics,

00:55:33 ◼   ► and then the operating systems can deal with these specifics

00:55:38 ◼   ► differently in ways that are native to them.

00:55:40 ◼   ► That's probably the better approach for cross-platform code.

00:55:44 ◼   ► And it does seem like SwiftUI is like the ultimate plan

00:55:48 ◼   ► of where Apple wants us to go in the future.

00:55:52 ◼   ► And it seems like Catalyst is a stopgap.

00:55:55 ◼   ► Catalyst is our carbon to the carbon-cocoa divide

00:56:00 ◼   ► of years ago.

00:56:01 ◼   ► And so it will serve a function,

00:56:05 ◼   ► but I don't know how much investment it's going to get,

00:56:07 ◼   ► and it certainly doesn't seem like it's going to be

00:56:09 ◼   ► the focus of a whole lot of excitement

00:56:11 ◼   ► or necessarily high-quality apps.

00:56:14 ◼   ► And it's also just, I mean, part of it,

00:56:17 ◼   ► it's still super early.

00:56:18 ◼   ► Like everything else they shipped this summer,

00:56:20 ◼   ► it's not really ready yet in a lot of ways.

00:56:22 ◼   ► There's still some pretty annoying limitations

00:56:26 ◼   ► and just like oversights.

00:56:28 ◼   ► Like one of the things that a lot of people are facing

00:56:31 ◼   ► is that you can't share purchases,

00:56:33 ◼   ► and it can't be the same bundle ID.

00:56:34 ◼   ► There's all sorts of weird stuff,

00:56:37 ◼   ► because it's still two separate app stores.

00:56:40 ◼   ► And so it's a whole thing.

00:56:41 ◼   ► But anyway, I am not excited about Catalyst at all.

00:56:47 ◼   ► I view it simply as a tool.

00:56:49 ◼   ► Like I'm as excited about Catalyst

00:56:51 ◼   ► as I am about App Store Connect.

00:56:53 ◼   ► It's like this is a tool that I will have to use

00:56:57 ◼   ► to achieve a goal I want,

00:56:59 ◼   ► but I'm not excited about it at all.

00:57:00 ◼   ► - Yeah, I hear you.

00:57:01 ◼   ► And for the record, I think that that is the correct call,

00:57:03 ◼   ► not that you really need my approval,

00:57:04 ◼   ► but I think Catalyst probably makes a lot more sense for you

00:57:07 ◼   ► than doing something with SwiftUI.

00:57:10 ◼   ► But I view them as somewhat related,

00:57:12 ◼   ► since both of them to be used properly

00:57:14 ◼   ► really do require Catalina.

00:57:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, and SwiftUI I think is gonna be very important

00:57:21 ◼   ► to me in the future, but I kinda wanna hold off.

00:57:24 ◼   ► My initial plan of SwiftUI was to redo my watch app

00:57:28 ◼   ► is with SwiftUI first, learn it there

00:57:30 ◼   ► on that much simpler, smaller canvas

00:57:33 ◼   ► and smaller problem space,

00:57:35 ◼   ► and then be able to apply those skills

00:57:37 ◼   ► to other stuff in the main app.

00:57:39 ◼   ► And that's probably still what I'm going to do.

00:57:41 ◼   ► I haven't started yet.

00:57:42 ◼   ► That's probably still what I'm going to do,

00:57:44 ◼   ► but even doing the watch app in SwiftUI,

00:57:48 ◼   ► SwiftUI itself is still so early and still so,

00:57:52 ◼   ► like almost everything Apple has done recently,

00:57:54 ◼   ► so poorly documented and undiscoverable.

00:57:58 ◼   ► And it's still, as mentioned before,

00:58:01 ◼   ► the error messages are comically hostile

00:58:03 ◼   ► and it's still very obtuse in lots of ways.

00:58:06 ◼   ► And so I might even wait still on that.

00:58:10 ◼   ► But SwiftUI I think has a much more exciting future

00:58:13 ◼   ► than Catalyst in the present.

00:58:16 ◼   ► Frankly, I'm not that excited about either of them.

00:58:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, that makes sense.

00:58:19 ◼   ► Can we do a quick tangent if you don't mind,

00:58:22 ◼   ► and you can just-- - Us?

00:58:23 ◼   ► - Through the magic of, yeah, through the magic of editing,

00:58:24 ◼   ► you can just put this somewhere where it makes sense.

00:58:26 ◼   ► How is the documentation so bad this year?

00:58:30 ◼   ► How is this a thing?

00:58:31 ◼   ► - Honestly, it's not just this year.

00:58:33 ◼   ► Like this is, I think it's worse this year

00:58:36 ◼   ► than it had in previous years,

00:58:39 ◼   ► but almost all new APIs that Apple has released

00:58:44 ◼   ► over the last few years have very little

00:58:47 ◼   ► to no documentation.

00:58:49 ◼   ► There are so often that I have to jump

00:58:51 ◼   ► into the header file for something just to see

00:58:53 ◼   ► what the heck even the methods and properties do.

00:58:56 ◼   ► - Speaking of that, with Swift not having header files,

00:58:59 ◼   ► how do you deal with that?

00:59:01 ◼   ► - I haven't had to deal with that yet,

00:59:02 ◼   ► but that's gonna be an issue.

00:59:04 ◼   ► And even the things that aren't header file based,

00:59:09 ◼   ► a lot of the APIs, the documentation is,

00:59:12 ◼   ► oh, go watch this WWDC session video from three years ago.

00:59:16 ◼   ► That's the only time this was ever explained.

00:59:18 ◼   ► - Yep, and that just grinds my gears so much.

00:59:20 ◼   ► It's so unbelievably frustrating.

00:59:23 ◼   ► Apple says, here, developer, here's this magical API

00:59:27 ◼   ► that we allege will do exactly what you've wanted to do,

00:59:32 ◼   ► but (bleep) you, figure it out yourself.

00:59:34 ◼   ► It's just so frustrating.

00:59:36 ◼   ► And I understand that it is more important

00:59:41 ◼   ► to have a functional API, and you were kind of going

00:59:44 ◼   ► on a tear about this briefly earlier on Twitter, Marco,

00:59:46 ◼   ► and I agree with you.

00:59:48 ◼   ► It is more important to have a functional API,

00:59:49 ◼   ► which doesn't always work these days with Apple,

00:59:51 ◼   ► but it is more important to have a functional API

00:59:53 ◼   ► than it is perfect documentation.

00:59:55 ◼   ► But it is genuinely unfortunate and frustrating.

01:00:00 ◼   ► And I would almost go so far as to say unfair

01:00:04 ◼   ► that Apple is expecting all these developers like you,

01:00:07 ◼   ► like me, to adopt all these new APIs,

01:00:09 ◼   ► but yet there is no formal documentation for them.

01:00:12 ◼   ► And I know that some of the developers internal to Apple

01:00:16 ◼   ► will put just unbelievably good documentation

01:00:19 ◼   ► in their header files.

01:00:20 ◼   ► Like, look at the Collection View header files

01:00:22 ◼   ► and how unbelievably good they are

01:00:23 ◼   ► with all of the ASCII art that's in there.

01:00:25 ◼   ► But is there any good Collection View proper documentation

01:00:29 ◼   ► on any of this stuff?

01:00:31 ◼   ► I haven't seen much.

01:00:32 ◼   ► And a lot of times, it's like you said,

01:00:33 ◼   ► go to the dub dub session and you'll be fine.

01:00:35 ◼   ► And that's just not acceptable.

01:00:38 ◼   ► And it makes me wonder if the people who are writing,

01:00:41 ◼   ► like Collection View and some of these other things,

01:00:43 ◼   ► are taking the time to do this header documentation,

01:00:46 ◼   ► is that because something outside of their org

01:00:49 ◼   ► is preventing them from doing the real documentation?

01:00:52 ◼   ► Like, is it that the lawyers are holding it up

01:00:54 ◼   ► or the people who, maybe it's a different org

01:00:57 ◼   ► that writes the documentation,

01:00:58 ◼   ► which actually is probably the case,

01:00:59 ◼   ► and they're just behind or slow or gosh knows what else.

01:01:03 ◼   ► But man, what a frustrating and silly self-own,

01:01:07 ◼   ► at least to my eyes.

01:01:08 ◼   ► - Oh yeah, I mean, which is honestly,

01:01:09 ◼   ► that's kind of the story of a lot of the Apple stuff

01:01:11 ◼   ► recently, but yeah, like, and you know,

01:01:14 ◼   ► you mentioned a second ago that like, you know,

01:01:15 ◼   ► that's probably a separate team

01:01:17 ◼   ► that writes the documentation.

01:01:19 ◼   ► It seems, first of all, that's probably true,

01:01:20 ◼   ► and it seems like that should be an easy thing to scale.

01:01:25 ◼   ► - Yeah, one would think.

01:01:26 ◼   ► - 'Cause you don't have to have the engineers

01:01:27 ◼   ► who wrote the stuff be the ones who documented everything.

01:01:31 ◼   ► And it seems like it should be relatively easy,

01:01:34 ◼   ► 'cause that's relatively orthogonal

01:01:36 ◼   ► to the development of the APIs.

01:01:37 ◼   ► Like, you can have people who make documentation.

01:01:40 ◼   ► You can have people who make sample code

01:01:42 ◼   ► and sample projects.

01:01:43 ◼   ► Like, that seems like it would be easy

01:01:46 ◼   ► to hire totally separate people to do those things.

01:01:49 ◼   ► One of the biggest problems that I have

01:01:51 ◼   ► as a developer with Apple's APIs,

01:01:52 ◼   ► in addition to the lack of documentation,

01:01:55 ◼   ► is that a lot of the APIs simply don't work,

01:01:58 ◼   ► and it seems like no one in Apple

01:01:59 ◼   ► ever actually tried to use them.

01:02:01 ◼   ► And this is like yet another thing

01:02:03 ◼   ► that you would think a similar orthogonal group could do.

01:02:07 ◼   ► Have a group of people at Apple employed

01:02:09 ◼   ► who just try to build something

01:02:11 ◼   ► with every new API they make,

01:02:13 ◼   ► using only the public stuff that developers get to use.

01:02:16 ◼   ► Because I've faced so many problems over the last few years

01:02:20 ◼   ► of seeming like I'm the only person

01:02:22 ◼   ► who's trying to build on something,

01:02:23 ◼   ► or building on an API that's like two years old,

01:02:26 ◼   ► and finding critical flaws in it

01:02:29 ◼   ► where it doesn't actually work,

01:02:30 ◼   ► and it's like, has anybody actually shipped anything

01:02:33 ◼   ► using this API over the last two years?

01:02:35 ◼   ► 'Cause you can't.

01:02:36 ◼   ► And it seems like, with so much other stuff,

01:02:39 ◼   ► they don't seem to actually be even trying it

01:02:42 ◼   ► before they ship it, or after they ship it.

01:02:44 ◼   ► - Anyway, John, I'm sorry, we got on a tangent,

01:02:47 ◼   ► which was my fault, so tell me,

01:02:48 ◼   ► how do you feel about Catalina,

01:02:49 ◼   ► and how many decades has this Mac probe been in existence?

01:02:54 ◼   ► Has that build lived?

01:02:57 ◼   ► - Actually, before we get off that tangent,

01:02:59 ◼   ► I'm really surprised that Marco would be even considering

01:03:02 ◼   ► SwiftUI in any form, except for the fact

01:03:05 ◼   ► that it's your only option if you wanna do

01:03:06 ◼   ► like good WatchKit apps.

01:03:08 ◼   ► Like that's, because SwiftUI is,

01:03:10 ◼   ► it's not as young as the original Swift, but it's close.

01:03:14 ◼   ► The only reason I say it's not is because

01:03:15 ◼   ► the integration with Xcode necessarily

01:03:18 ◼   ► is much richer than the original Swift had,

01:03:21 ◼   ► because of the whole like, you know,

01:03:22 ◼   ► real-time updates of the UI and the thing, or whatever.

01:03:25 ◼   ► Swift 1.0 didn't have that.

01:03:26 ◼   ► But other than that, I would imagine SwiftUI

01:03:29 ◼   ► is probably gonna go through the same sort of

01:03:31 ◼   ► tumultuous series of changes that Swift, you know,

01:03:34 ◼   ► 2.0 through 4.0 went through.

01:03:37 ◼   ► Hopefully not syntax-wise and breaking your code-wise,

01:03:39 ◼   ► but it's got a long way to go.

01:03:41 ◼   ► Like, we see the promise, you know,

01:03:44 ◼   ► much more so than with Swift itself, I think.

01:03:46 ◼   ► We see what SwiftUI could bring

01:03:50 ◼   ► when it gets more full-featured,

01:03:52 ◼   ► when the tooling gets even better,

01:03:53 ◼   ► when, as you both complained,

01:03:55 ◼   ► the error messages get better.

01:03:56 ◼   ► And by the way, the error message,

01:03:57 ◼   ► it's not just a matter of like writing good error messages.

01:03:59 ◼   ► Structurally, there are things about the way SwiftUI works

01:04:02 ◼   ► that's going to make it very difficult to be sensible,

01:04:06 ◼   ► and they have to come up with solutions

01:04:08 ◼   ► for all of those problems.

01:04:09 ◼   ► It's not just, oh, we didn't have time

01:04:10 ◼   ► to make good error messages.

01:04:11 ◼   ► It's like sort of the tooling around React

01:04:14 ◼   ► or any other kind of like various event-driven frameworks

01:04:18 ◼   ► where things happen asynchronously,

01:04:21 ◼   ► where just getting a stack trace tells you nothing, right?

01:04:24 ◼   ► And just getting an error from the point where it occurs

01:04:26 ◼   ► tells you nothing about where it originated, right,

01:04:28 ◼   ► because of the nature of the sort of execution model

01:04:31 ◼   ► and the fact that it is declarative and not imperative,

01:04:33 ◼   ► and you're not controlling when everything happens.

01:04:34 ◼   ► Things just happen in response to things that you declared,

01:04:37 ◼   ► but you're not quite sure what thing you declared

01:04:38 ◼   ► caused that thing to happen at that time.

01:04:39 ◼   ► And, you know, it's a hard problem to solve.

01:04:42 ◼   ► So for how long Marco stayed away from Swift,

01:04:46 ◼   ► I'm really surprised that he's even looking at SwiftUI

01:04:49 ◼   ► at all, except when forced, like with the Watch app.

01:04:51 ◼   ► So in other words--

01:04:52 ◼   ► - That just tells you how bad WatchKit is.

01:04:55 ◼   ► - Well, yeah, 'cause it's an upgrade over like

01:04:57 ◼   ► just describe a window for me,

01:04:59 ◼   ► and I'll put it on the screen for you.

01:05:01 ◼   ► At least you get to use two interactive elements

01:05:03 ◼   ► and you like draw things and stuff.

01:05:05 ◼   ► - Yeah, like WatchKit is like that much

01:05:08 ◼   ► of a bane of my existence whenever I go near it.

01:05:10 ◼   ► Like I hate WatchKit so much that I will tolerate

01:05:14 ◼   ► learning the new craziness with SwiftUI

01:05:17 ◼   ► because WatchKit's that bad.

01:05:18 ◼   ► - Yeah, and plus you would imagine like

01:05:20 ◼   ► there's not that many controls on WatchKit,

01:05:22 ◼   ► and so even with the current limits of SwiftUI,

01:05:25 ◼   ► plus or minus the error messages,

01:05:26 ◼   ► like you're not gonna have that many controls

01:05:28 ◼   ► on screen at once.

01:05:29 ◼   ► They're not gonna be that complicated,

01:05:30 ◼   ► so it feels like it actually is a good fit

01:05:32 ◼   ► for a first foray, but then you'll have to change

01:05:36 ◼   ► all that code like next year and the year after

01:05:38 ◼   ► as they break stuff or quote unquote improve things.

01:05:41 ◼   ► They will improve things, and that will mean

01:05:42 ◼   ► your crusty old original SwiftUI stuff has to be changed.

01:05:46 ◼   ► - Yeah, well that's okay.

01:05:47 ◼   ► I rewrite my Watch app every couple of years anyway.

01:05:50 ◼   ► - Who doesn't, right?

01:05:52 ◼   ► Really quickly, Scott Horn on Twitter just posted,

01:05:55 ◼   ► which I thought was very well put.

01:05:57 ◼   ► If you can't properly document your API,

01:05:58 ◼   ► the chances are that it works as intended are slim to none.

01:06:03 ◼   ► Documentation forces testing,

01:06:04 ◼   ► and I think that's a very good call.

01:06:06 ◼   ► - Documentation forces testing, so optimistic.

01:06:09 ◼   ► Yeah, right, forces testing.

01:06:11 ◼   ► You know what tells you if your API works?

01:06:12 ◼   ► Tests, that's what tells you your API works, do you?

01:06:14 ◼   ► But here's what documentation does.

01:06:16 ◼   ► Documentation, this is why I always press at work

01:06:19 ◼   ► and no one ever believes me,

01:06:20 ◼   ► so I'm the only person who thinks this,

01:06:21 ◼   ► but it is actually right.

01:06:23 ◼   ► Writing documentation-- - Of course it is.

01:06:25 ◼   ► Everyone else is wrong, John.

01:06:26 ◼   ► - You'll agree with me, you'll see.

01:06:27 ◼   ► Writing documentation for your API, your code, your library,

01:06:32 ◼   ► is a great way to let you know if you have a good API,

01:06:37 ◼   ► because if you find yourself struggling

01:06:38 ◼   ► to explain how something works,

01:06:41 ◼   ► if you find yourself having to write paragraph

01:06:42 ◼   ► after paragraph, including caveats and prerequisites

01:06:45 ◼   ► and assumptions and everything, you have a bad API.

01:06:48 ◼   ► It may work great and the tests may all pass,

01:06:50 ◼   ► but then you're like, when it comes time

01:06:52 ◼   ► to explain the purpose of this function,

01:06:54 ◼   ► explain what arguments it takes

01:06:56 ◼   ► and what it returns under what conditions,

01:06:58 ◼   ► if you end up writing a choose-your-own-adventure novel

01:07:00 ◼   ► underneath that thing, guess what?

01:07:03 ◼   ► You just discovered that your,

01:07:04 ◼   ► and that's why you can't leave, that your API is bad.

01:07:06 ◼   ► You can't leave this to the end,

01:07:08 ◼   ► because at the end when you're all done,

01:07:09 ◼   ► like we wrote our API and people are building on it

01:07:12 ◼   ► and all our tests pass and it's awesome

01:07:13 ◼   ► and we did performance improvements,

01:07:15 ◼   ► now, finally, the last step, the cherry on top,

01:07:17 ◼   ► I'm gonna go write the docs, and you're like,

01:07:19 ◼   ► oh my God, this API is terrible and we have to change this.

01:07:22 ◼   ► There's no way I can explain to a user how to use this API.

01:07:24 ◼   ► Like, I'm embarrassed for myself

01:07:26 ◼   ► that I have to say these words, like,

01:07:28 ◼   ► well, I can do this, but if you pass that and it does that,

01:07:30 ◼   ► make sure you do this, but don't call it in this context

01:07:31 ◼   ► and then just, like, oh God, what have we done?

01:07:34 ◼   ► Like, it works, but, so you can't save the documentation

01:07:37 ◼   ► at the end, you have to write the docs,

01:07:39 ◼   ► maybe not at the beginning, but somewhere in the middle,

01:07:41 ◼   ► because you will learn that your API is screwed up

01:07:44 ◼   ► through writing the documentation,

01:07:45 ◼   ► or someone else will learn it and come tell you.

01:07:48 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:07:48 ◼   ► - Well put, you're right, I did end up agreeing with you.

01:07:51 ◼   ► All right, I'm gonna stop talking.

01:07:53 ◼   ► Marco is hopefully gonna stop talking.

01:07:54 ◼   ► Tell us about Catalina.

01:07:56 ◼   ► - Oh, I'm gonna talk about my, you know,

01:07:57 ◼   ► so I do upgrade installs on my Mac forever.

01:08:00 ◼   ► I am pretty sure that I have files on my Mac

01:08:04 ◼   ► that came from classic Mac OS.

01:08:06 ◼   ► - Wow, that's interesting. - Because remember,

01:08:08 ◼   ► when, you know, my Blue and White G3 was purchased with

01:08:11 ◼   ► and ran for most of its life, classic Mac OS.

01:08:13 ◼   ► Eventually it ran Mac OS X, but I installed it on top of

01:08:16 ◼   ► my installation of classic Mac OS.

01:08:18 ◼   ► So yeah, I've just been,

01:08:21 ◼   ► I just peeked in my library preferences folder

01:08:23 ◼   ► and the oldest file I have in there

01:08:25 ◼   ► was last modified in 2003.

01:08:27 ◼   ► So I have files that, - Oh, golly.

01:08:29 ◼   ► - I have files that predate both of your use of the Mac.

01:08:31 ◼   ► You can know that, you know they're old files from classic

01:08:33 ◼   ► when they, the file names don't have file name extensions.

01:08:36 ◼   ► That's a good way to tell.

01:08:37 ◼   ► - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:08:38 ◼   ► - Yeah, anyway, that's what I do

01:08:39 ◼   ► and I will continue to do with my installs.

01:08:41 ◼   ► Although it's like, transferring to the new Mac Pro

01:08:46 ◼   ► is gonna be, I gotta figure out how I can actually

01:08:49 ◼   ► connect them with a cable that's not ridiculously slow

01:08:51 ◼   ► 'cause you can like firewire to Thunderbolt to USB to,

01:08:56 ◼   ► maybe I'll just do ethernet, I don't know.

01:08:58 ◼   ► I'll figure something out, but it's gonna take a while

01:09:00 ◼   ► 'cause I have a lot of files.

01:09:01 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:09:03 ◼   ► So Catalina, obviously I'm not running it on this Mac

01:09:06 ◼   ► because I can't.

01:09:07 ◼   ► - Oh, wop wop.

01:09:09 ◼   ► - I feel very similar to Marco in that,

01:09:14 ◼   ► like there's not much pulling me into Catalina

01:09:18 ◼   ► and there's lots of stuff keeping me away.

01:09:20 ◼   ► Aside from bugs, like oh, I'm afraid the first version

01:09:22 ◼   ► will be buggy or whatever.

01:09:24 ◼   ► There's the whole 32-bit apps going away.

01:09:27 ◼   ► I have a lot of 32-bit apps, most of which I've been

01:09:30 ◼   ► saying my goodbyes to, like all right,

01:09:32 ◼   ► I'm gonna live without you, like saying my goodbyes

01:09:34 ◼   ► to Drag Thing, all my games and like, you know.

01:09:38 ◼   ► There's a lot of stuff, but there's a couple ones

01:09:40 ◼   ► that are really just, I bought a new version

01:09:42 ◼   ► of Microsoft Office because the version of Microsoft Office

01:09:45 ◼   ► I had was so old that, I don't know if it was 64-bit or not,

01:09:48 ◼   ► but it was like, I was just, let me just solve that problem.

01:09:51 ◼   ► The one that's really killing me though is Photoshop CS6.

01:09:55 ◼   ► And I checked Photoshop CS6 as soon as I knew

01:09:58 ◼   ► that Apple was dropping, like it was like two years ago

01:10:00 ◼   ► when they made the announcement like this version

01:10:02 ◼   ► will run 32-bit and then they stopped talking.

01:10:04 ◼   ► It's like okay, well the next version won't.

01:10:05 ◼   ► I'm like well I have to buy a new Photoshop

01:10:07 ◼   ► and I did a little, you know, get in, I launched Photoshop,

01:10:09 ◼   ► my Mac and I got in, oh, Photoshop CS6 is a 64-bit process,

01:10:12 ◼   ► everything's fine and then I forgot about it

01:10:15 ◼   ► and then I redid it, I downloaded like that,

01:10:17 ◼   ► but Sinclair Software has this Go 64 application

01:10:20 ◼   ► that will just scan your thing for 64-bit applications

01:10:23 ◼   ► and, or 32-bit applications.

01:10:25 ◼   ► And you know Photoshop CS6, it's a 64-bit application,

01:10:28 ◼   ► I'm okay, right?

01:10:29 ◼   ► But I did notice a lot of other 32-bit things

01:10:32 ◼   ► with the word Adobe and I'm like, how do I do that stuff?

01:10:36 ◼   ► So this is a question I have.

01:10:37 ◼   ► I meant to tweet it earlier today

01:10:39 ◼   ► and I'd already have the answer by now if I had tweeted it

01:10:41 ◼   ► but I'll just, I shouldn't ask it on the program

01:10:43 ◼   ► but anyway, 'cause I don't want a million people to tell me.

01:10:47 ◼   ► I'll find out next week.

01:10:48 ◼   ► But the question I have is if I upgrade to Catalina,

01:10:52 ◼   ► can I even launch CS6 or will I, you know,

01:10:55 ◼   ► like it's a 64-bit app, presumably it will launch,

01:10:57 ◼   ► will it immediately crash because some Adobe utility

01:10:59 ◼   ► won't work or is it like, you can launch it

01:11:01 ◼   ► but you can't use like Bridge or some import functionality

01:11:04 ◼   ► that I never use, like I'm a very light user of Photoshop

01:11:07 ◼   ► but I do want to have it, I'm accustomed to it.

01:11:11 ◼   ► So I don't, and I don't want to pay Adobe

01:11:15 ◼   ► a monthly or yearly fee for Photoshop

01:11:17 ◼   ► 'cause I use it so rarely.

01:11:18 ◼   ► Like I basically use it as like an image resizer,

01:11:23 ◼   ► slight modification, you know, like I do, yeah,

01:11:26 ◼   ► whatever weird t-shirt designs we're doing,

01:11:29 ◼   ► sometimes I do in Photoshop, you know, or mock-ups.

01:11:32 ◼   ► Like I don't use it that much.

01:11:33 ◼   ► It's not worth it, it's not worth it for me to pay

01:11:36 ◼   ► even like $5 a month for Photoshop

01:11:39 ◼   ► or the equivalent yearly fee and you can't,

01:11:41 ◼   ► as far as I know, you can't buy Photoshop anymore.

01:11:43 ◼   ► I bought CS6 specifically because it was the last version

01:11:47 ◼   ► that wasn't infected with Creative Cloud, not infected.

01:11:50 ◼   ► Like I'm not against that model, I think it's fine.

01:11:51 ◼   ► It just doesn't fit my use, my use of Photoshop.

01:11:54 ◼   ► I'm not a professional person who makes their living

01:11:57 ◼   ► using Photoshop, put it that way.

01:11:59 ◼   ► So I don't want to upgrade to Catalina and lose Photoshop.

01:12:02 ◼   ► And that's currently my biggest barrier,

01:12:06 ◼   ► that and there's one application my wife uses

01:12:08 ◼   ► for budgeting that she's saying her goodbyes to

01:12:10 ◼   ► and she's like, she's told me before she left

01:12:13 ◼   ► on another one of her trips, like don't upgrade my computer

01:12:17 ◼   ► when I'm gone because I know that my budgeting application

01:12:21 ◼   ► will not be supported anymore and I'm auditioning a new one

01:12:25 ◼   ► but until that happens, you can't upgrade it.

01:12:27 ◼   ► So there are a couple things keeping me away from it

01:12:29 ◼   ► and the main thing pulling me into it is,

01:12:33 ◼   ► I'm not really interested in Sidecar

01:12:34 ◼   ► but I am interested in like the new applications,

01:12:38 ◼   ► believe it or not, like the ability to watch 4K video

01:12:42 ◼   ► if I wanted, yay, I'm entering the modern era.

01:12:44 ◼   ► The new version of Photos, I spend a lot of time in Photos

01:12:46 ◼   ► and I'm always hungry for a new version of Photos

01:12:48 ◼   ► which tends to be tied to the OS.

01:12:50 ◼   ► This new version of Photos might be good, might be bad

01:12:54 ◼   ► but any change is an opportunity for things to be better

01:12:59 ◼   ► whereas just for the entire life Mojave, I was like,

01:13:02 ◼   ► yeah, here's Photos, it's never getting any better

01:13:04 ◼   ► until the new version, so I do want to see that

01:13:06 ◼   ► and by the way, my favorite plugin for doing

01:13:12 ◼   ► the books that I print, Mimeo, that is not ready

01:13:15 ◼   ► for Catalina yet either so I gotta wait for that update.

01:13:17 ◼   ► There's an update coming soon that will make it work

01:13:19 ◼   ► in Catalina and all the preference, the permission dialogue

01:13:24 ◼   ► stuff, I'm not really too worried about that.

01:13:25 ◼   ► It will be annoying but I'm the type of user

01:13:28 ◼   ► that can handle that assuming I eventually defeat it all

01:13:32 ◼   ► and it goes away.

01:13:33 ◼   ► So the iMac hasn't been upgraded, long way of saying

01:13:36 ◼   ► but I did willingly upgrade the laptop, the MacBook Air

01:13:41 ◼   ► because, mostly because I want screen time

01:13:44 ◼   ► 'cause that's the kid's homework, quote unquote

01:13:46 ◼   ► homework laptop but it's also their bypass of screen time

01:13:49 ◼   ► if they want to watch YouTube all hours of the night,

01:13:51 ◼   ► they can do so on the laptop.

01:13:53 ◼   ► So I, and also I just wanted to see what it was like.

01:13:56 ◼   ► I had Catalina installed on a separate APFS volumes

01:14:00 ◼   ► on my, in my US container on the iMac.

01:14:03 ◼   ► So I'd seen Catalina before, I'd run a bunch of the betas,

01:14:05 ◼   ► I'd looked at it like, not like I'm too surprised

01:14:07 ◼   ► but I upgraded the MacBook Air to Catalina.

01:14:12 ◼   ► So far seems fine, a little bit of wonkiness

01:14:14 ◼   ► around Apple ID stuff as usual, like it's always not

01:14:17 ◼   ► a great first run experience like, you know,

01:14:19 ◼   ► it's a bunch of permission dialogues,

01:14:21 ◼   ► this app wants to do that, do you want to allow this

01:14:23 ◼   ► after that, yeah, buh buh, go through all that thing

01:14:25 ◼   ► and then I go into system preferences and I go

01:14:27 ◼   ► to the new Apple ID screen, it's got like a red badge

01:14:29 ◼   ► on it that's like, you need to update your Apple ID

01:14:33 ◼   ► settings or something, like all right, fine, whatever,

01:14:36 ◼   ► enter your Apple ID password, all right, fine,

01:14:38 ◼   ► enter your Mac password, all right, fine,

01:14:40 ◼   ► and then it grinds for a really long time

01:14:42 ◼   ► and then it's done grinding and then I'm like,

01:14:44 ◼   ► okay, I guess I'm done but the badge is still on the thing.

01:14:48 ◼   ► It's like close to some preferences and then later

01:14:49 ◼   ► I come back to the computer and it's like,

01:14:51 ◼   ► you need to update your Apple ID settings.

01:14:53 ◼   ► I went through the NAS like six times,

01:14:56 ◼   ► the badge never went away, I kept asking,

01:14:57 ◼   ► like what do you want from me, what am I,

01:15:00 ◼   ► you want to update my Apple ID settings, then do it.

01:15:02 ◼   ► It never did, I just logged out, I set up the kids' accounts

01:15:06 ◼   ► you know, I launched all the stuff and got rid of all

01:15:08 ◼   ► the permission dialogs for them, I set up screen time

01:15:10 ◼   ► on the Mac which I'm assuming will work

01:15:13 ◼   ► which is a big assumption because I have to say,

01:15:15 ◼   ► these screen time reports for family sharing,

01:15:17 ◼   ► like where you can see what your kid's usage is or whatever

01:15:20 ◼   ► across all their devices, how long has that been out now?

01:15:23 ◼   ► A year and a half, two years?

01:15:25 ◼   ► It has never worked right and continues not to work right.

01:15:28 ◼   ► Some devices don't show up at all,

01:15:29 ◼   ► some activity doesn't show up at all,

01:15:30 ◼   ► sometimes I go into my kid's screen time report

01:15:32 ◼   ► and it's just blank, there's like no activity,

01:15:35 ◼   ► activity will appear here once people use their devices,

01:15:37 ◼   ► oh really, once people use their devices,

01:15:39 ◼   ► two years later something will show up here?

01:15:41 ◼   ► Sometimes it shows up, sometimes I can see one device

01:15:43 ◼   ► but not another, like it's really bad, it's really,

01:15:46 ◼   ► it's so unreliable, it's like what am I even

01:15:48 ◼   ► getting reports on, you know?

01:15:50 ◼   ► Like I don't think I've ever seen anything reported

01:15:52 ◼   ► from my son's iPad but I do see his phone sometimes

01:15:55 ◼   ► and it just doesn't make any sense,

01:15:57 ◼   ► it's one of those features that's like, is this a feature

01:15:59 ◼   ► or is this a thing that like might work sometimes

01:16:01 ◼   ► but you know, check back later, same thing with the,

01:16:04 ◼   ► you know, the weird first round bugs in Catalina.

01:16:06 ◼   ► But I'm actually kind of interested in seeing

01:16:10 ◼   ► the new music app and having the,

01:16:13 ◼   ► all the device stuff in the finder,

01:16:15 ◼   ► like most of those UI changes and the new applications

01:16:18 ◼   ► I'm actually interested in, the new, is the new version?

01:16:20 ◼   ► No, I think Maps is not the new good version, right?

01:16:23 ◼   ► Messages got changed a little bit, anyway,

01:16:25 ◼   ► I am interested in the new OS but I'm just scared

01:16:28 ◼   ► to lose all my stuff and scared to break things so,

01:16:31 ◼   ► on the laptop it goes and you know, I have to say,

01:16:34 ◼   ► other than my complaints about those weird things,

01:16:37 ◼   ► it's been okay, like it hasn't crashed,

01:16:40 ◼   ► it seems to be running fine, it's not making the fan spin,

01:16:42 ◼   ► I, you know, I did a full time machine back above it

01:16:45 ◼   ► and that all seemed to go well.

01:16:46 ◼   ► So, you know, I don't recommend people upgrade to Catalina

01:16:51 ◼   ► but it has not been disastrous to me so far.

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01:18:21 ◼   ► - All right, let's bring back Ask ATP,

01:18:27 ◼   ► I think because we've been just full of stuff to talk about,

01:18:30 ◼   ► we've skipped it for the last couple of weeks

01:18:32 ◼   ► and so let's bring it back.

01:18:33 ◼   ► Dan Stanton writes, "With the advent of family sharing,"

01:18:35 ◼   ► speaking of, "why do you think contacts have been ignored?

01:18:38 ◼   ► In my mind, contacts in a family should be bucketed

01:18:40 ◼   ► just like calendar entries, yours, mine and ours."

01:18:43 ◼   ► Dan's wife doesn't want to see a couple hundred

01:18:45 ◼   ► of my work acquaintances in her address book,

01:18:47 ◼   ► but it would be nice if I updated random aunt's info

01:18:50 ◼   ► that my wife got the change.

01:18:52 ◼   ► Do y'all experience this issue, any creative solutions?

01:18:54 ◼   ► - Yes, this is a problem that Aaron and I face.

01:18:58 ◼   ► Because I am, I don't know,

01:19:01 ◼   ► like a pack rat of contact information,

01:19:03 ◼   ► I have the kind of official contact list of the family,

01:19:07 ◼   ► but that causes Aaron to oftentimes have to ask me,

01:19:10 ◼   ► oh, what's so-and-so's address?

01:19:11 ◼   ► What's this person's phone number?

01:19:12 ◼   ► What's this person's email address and so on,

01:19:14 ◼   ► which is fine, but it's frustrating for both of us.

01:19:17 ◼   ► I don't know of any fix.

01:19:20 ◼   ► I would imagine that if you had some sort of

01:19:24 ◼   ► like Google app setup, which we actually do,

01:19:27 ◼   ► maybe you could share contacts that way,