220: Executive Box Lunch

0:00:00Would any executive who had other options ever choose to eat a box lunch like well, it's like anything that's executive

0:00:07It's always the name is always two levels of status up from the thing. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a marketing name, you know, so

0:00:12Executives would never have an executive box lunch. 17 year olds. Don't read 17 magazine and on and on

0:00:17Aspirational, I don't think executives have any form of lunch that comes in a box. They should call it executive sack lunch

0:00:29Like there there's literally there is nothing they could put in that box that would make that name seem reasonable

0:00:34Just filled with caviar sack lunch the famous movie from Seinfeld

0:00:39To begin with follow-up today a friend of the show Daniel Jalkett has spent

0:00:45What seemed to be a surprising amount of time doing research on Moscone lunches, and I'm glad that Daniel did it

0:00:50So we don't have to

0:00:52He has looked up some information about the Moscone box lunches. We will put a link in the show notes

0:00:58There's a few highlights that I wanted to call everyone's attention to the quote executive box lunch quotes is

0:01:06$39 and 25 cents in the year 2017 according to Daniel. I love so much that this is called the executive

0:01:15Yes, the executive box lunch. I am NOT kidding

0:01:19I mean in all fairness Craig Federighi was allegedly eating one of these things backstage before talk show live and he is an executive and

0:01:25And so therefore, I guess that's aptly named,

0:01:29but I'll tell you one thing,

0:01:31when all of us are getting it in the big dining hall,

0:01:32I sure don't feel like an executive.

0:01:34- No. - It seems like,

0:01:35well, it's not, keep going Casey,

0:01:37because it's not, $39 does not include all the pricing

0:01:40and options included in this special Porsche Lunch

0:01:43if you want floor mats and all four wheels

0:01:46and also a transmission, it costs more.

0:01:48- Yes, so continuing on.

0:01:51This is the description of the Executive Box lunch,

0:01:53which Daniel notes, it's what he remembers from Dub-Dub, and it sounds the same to me.

0:01:56So the description is as follows. "Four compartment includes compostable service,

0:02:01because California, 25 guest minimum. Sandwich, wrapper, entree, salad includes a choice of side

0:02:07salad, dessert, and fruit. To accompany your box lunches, we suggest adding assorted soft drinks

0:02:11and bottled water." Okay, so let's talk about soft drinks and bottled water. "Soft drinks and water

0:02:15are not included. A 22% service fee, as well as sales tax, which is almost 10%, are also added

0:02:21it's the price. So that $39.25 box lunch comes out to around $52, and you haven't had anything

0:02:29to drink yet. And this is Daniel writing, "Want to really lose your lunch? Each bottled

0:02:34water is $5.25, coming to $7 after service and taxes." And this is, again, still Daniel.

0:02:41And Marco's long-lost strawberry, sea-monstered, "Edwala," which is probably classified as

0:02:45assorted juices, would set Apple back an additional $8 a bottle. Add it all up, and it's not hard

0:02:51to imagine that meals and snacks are coming to $100 a day or $500 a week per person. Nearly

0:02:57a third of the $1600 WWDC admission fee likely pays for food. Are you kidding me with this

0:03:08garbage? Moving on, I don't know how the people who do it in San Jose, how their box lunches

0:03:15compare, but the good news is the "gourmet" box lunch from the caterers in San Jose comes

0:03:21in at only $22. Mineral waters, soft drinks, juices, and bottled water are a mere $4.50

0:03:27each. So a considerable savings once they move to San Jose on lunches alone. How can you spend,

0:03:34one, spend $500 a week on those lunches? Like, I was sitting here mostly defending them the last

0:03:40couple episodes. Eh, they're not that bad. You know, they're passable. They work. Not at $500

0:03:45for the week. Are you friggin' kidding me with this insanity? No. No. No. Hard pass. No.

0:03:49So if they drop the price of the tickets by $500, like they gave that $500 back to the people,

0:03:56and we all had to leave the building and find someplace else to eat and then come back,

0:04:00I'm actually not sure that that would be better for the conference. You're like,

0:04:06"Oh, just give me that 500 bucks. I could spend that in San Francisco." But then you

0:04:08got to go find someplace to eat. And I'm not sure the eateries that you can get to and back

0:04:14to the conference center in time to get the after lunch sessions can support

0:04:19that many people or are any better so oh no they're better but they probably

0:04:24can't support the people you're probably right about that but they are definitely

0:04:27better I don't know I like it depends like you can go to the whatever the

0:04:32little mall thingy that's over there and I mean yeah I mean the mall food court

0:04:35is better than than the body is better but you gotta wait in these long lines

0:04:39and then you get your thing you gotta find someplace to eat it you gotta get

0:04:42back and that's like the closest possible choice, I'm wondering, I would actually mostly

0:04:48be willing to pay for the convenience of not having to leave the conference center while

0:04:54eating lunches that I don't really like.

0:04:57Because that convenience is, I mean, and obviously the ideal choice would be to be able to get

0:05:01food from someplace else, but as Daniel points out, that is in their rules, you can't get

0:05:04food from anybody else in case it wasn't clear.

0:05:06There is no choice.

0:05:07Apple can't say, "Oh, we're just going to bring in someone else to cater."

0:05:11not even an option. It's just insanity to me, like how they can get fleeced that badly.

0:05:19It's not Apple's fault, it's just the way of the world. But oh my goodness, it is just

0:05:24barbaric that that's the answer. Well, the way of the world in Apple, Apple world is

0:05:28like if Apple, if this bothered Apple all that much, just buy Moscone. I saw a tweet

0:05:37as I was catching up on my far behind on Twitter, someone saying that with its cash, Apple could

0:05:43buy all of the Major League Baseball, NFL, and NHL teams and still have $100 billion

0:05:49left over.

0:05:50So crazy.

0:05:51Now, and then somebody well-actually'd that person and was like, "Well, actually, that

0:05:56doesn't account for taxes."

0:05:58But still, the point stands.

0:05:59Like, it's preposterous.

0:06:01All right, let's talk about next iPhone rumors.

0:06:05We talked in the past that there may be a Touch ID button on the back of the phone,

0:06:10which some people think is the end of times.

0:06:14A lot of people like myself think, "Eh, whatever."

0:06:17But a couple people actually pointed out, "Well, what does this mean for the Home button

0:06:21then?"

0:06:22Because a Home button on the back does not seem good.

0:06:26So how does that work?

0:06:28And I don't know is the answer, but I would guess that there is some sort of Home button,

0:06:34even a faux home button on the chin of the front of the phone.

0:06:39I think that's what they've probably started down the path of, which with the immobile

0:06:43or non-movable, whatever the word I'm looking for is, home button on the iPhone 7 and maybe

0:06:48the whole thing becomes a home button.

0:06:50I'm not really sure.

0:06:51But it's certainly an interesting point I hadn't considered that today Touch ID and

0:06:55home button are kind of co-located, but in the future maybe they won't be.

0:06:59So Jon, what do you think about this?

0:07:01Yeah, I think they they will be separate because it is more awkward to press a button on the back of the phone

0:07:08Even a fake like non button. I mean they can have it there in addition. I suppose again, it doesn't move

0:07:13It's not as if they they have to make room for some kind of mechanism and it's already going to be

0:07:17this little cutout area, but I think they will continue to have a

0:07:20Helm button on the front of the phone now whether that home button is virtual kind of like the touch bar where it's just a bottom

0:07:26Section of the screen or something like that. There's lots of been lots of rumors in the past

0:07:30I haven't heard any recently about how the touch bar technology of having this little

0:07:35separate accessory screen controlled by the OS and, you know, accessible, perhaps accessible

0:07:41to applications through an API, kind of like all, you know, the Android soft buttons and

0:07:45stuff like that might be a thing that would appear on a phone, but even if that doesn't

0:07:50exist at all, the idea of there being a, that you can squeeze the bottom part of your phone

0:07:56to go home.

0:07:57Like, whether you want to consider that a button, and especially if it's completely

0:08:01embedded in the screen and there is no, it's just a flat featureless piece of glass with

0:08:04no little cutout or circle or whatever, we're still going to call that the home button.

0:08:08And I'm thinking that they're not going to get rid of that, no matter where the Touch

0:08:11ID sensor goes.

0:08:12So it's basically a divorce of home button and Touch ID, where the home button can stay

0:08:15on the front, but because of the way it's done and the edge to the screen and everything,

0:08:21the Touch ID sensor goes on the back and we just squeeze the bottom of our phones.

0:08:25I think I would mostly be okay with that too.

0:08:27Like, you know, I'll have to see,

0:08:28have to try it for a while to see

0:08:30if I missed the little indented circle.

0:08:32A lot of listeners wrote in to express love

0:08:35for the little indented circle as a way to feel

0:08:38like which end of your phone is up

0:08:39or like exactly where you have to squeeze.

0:08:41But if you can squeeze anywhere

0:08:43along the bottom edge of the phone,

0:08:44I guess then your only problem is

0:08:45if you have your thing upside down,

0:08:46but I suppose you have the lightning port to check

0:08:49whether that's the case.

0:08:51Anyway, it's pretty weird that all of these rumors

0:08:55about the next phone surround like actual important

0:09:00physical changes to the exterior of the phone,

0:09:06because all the past phones, including like this,

0:09:08you know, six and seven generations,

0:09:10where it's kind of the same on the outside,

0:09:11have been about like, what does it look like

0:09:14and what are the materials?

0:09:15But the design of, it's a, you know,

0:09:19rectangle with a circle button on the bottom that you press in to go home and

0:09:23i guess the addition of touch id have been so constant this is the first phone

0:09:27that's like that the story on this phone is it may

0:09:30be differently shaped differently proportioned and functionality on it may

0:09:34be moving around in ways that has never moved around before so that's

0:09:37that's kind of exciting uh and you know kind of also risky and that like they

0:09:43have a model that works here with this rectangle with the home button on the

0:09:46bottom and they've iterated iterated and refined and iterated and

0:09:49But the basic functions and stuff have been the same, aside from, you know, what Casey

0:09:52mentioned in the last show, that the power button moved to the side, which is somewhat

0:09:57explicable by the increasing size of the phone and the difficulty people would have reaching

0:10:00all up to the top.

0:10:01But other than that, the phone design of the phone has been pretty—oh yeah, and the headphone

0:10:06jack moving from top to bottom.

0:10:07But the physical design of the phone has been pretty constant, and I'm kind of excited to

0:10:10see them, you know, say, "All bets are off.

0:10:13We're moving things around, and we're going to try something new."

0:10:16So I actually had a chance to play with the Galaxy S8

0:10:19a couple days ago in a Best Buy.

0:10:21With the exception of it feeling way too tall for its width

0:10:25and it being hard to reach things as a result,

0:10:27I actually really enjoyed the general look

0:10:31of the edge-to-edge on the sides, the screen and everything.

0:10:34And the way they did the home button,

0:10:36I just kind of instinctively force touched the lower area

0:10:40where the home button would be on an iPhone,

0:10:42and it turns out that's exactly what they want you to do.

0:10:45and it just clicked and it recognized any firm press

0:10:48in that area as a home button click.

0:10:50And so the very first thing I tried worked and was correct.

0:10:54And then as I was playing with it over a few minutes,

0:10:56I did that here and there a few more times,

0:10:57and every time it just worked exactly as expected.

0:10:59And even when there was something on screen there,

0:11:02something from the foreground app that is in that spot,

0:11:05that if it misinterprets it as a touch,

0:11:07it would have activated that thing.

0:11:08But every time it interpreted it correctly,

0:11:10and it was great, it was totally fine.

0:11:12So if Apple's gonna go in a direction like that

0:11:15where part of the screen just becomes the home button.

0:11:18I think they totally can.

0:11:20We've seen with the iPhone 7 Force Touch button

0:11:22that's a possibility, that's totally fine.

0:11:24And now we see with the S8 that it actually really does work.

0:11:28The only major question I would have for it is

0:11:32how do they show this to people?

0:11:33How is it handled in the UI?

0:11:36Does the usable area of the screen for apps

0:11:40actually extend that far like it does on the S8?

0:11:43Or is there that little reserve

0:11:44or like you were saying, John,

0:11:45like maybe like a touch bar like API area down there

0:11:49where apps would only actually take up

0:11:51like the middle 80% of the height

0:11:54and maybe not the very top and bottom

0:11:55or something like that.

0:11:56But anyway, having the just bottom area of the screen

0:12:00accept a firm touch as a home button, that works just fine.

0:12:05- I was gonna ask if there are any

0:12:06accessibility implications for that,

0:12:08but I would suppose with that,

0:12:10I forget what you call it,

0:12:11but we talked about it a lot like several months ago

0:12:13where you have the little on-screen button

0:12:15that lets you do the home button

0:12:16and all sorts of other gestures.

0:12:19What's the name of that thing?

0:12:20You know what I'm thinking about?

0:12:21- Assistive touch, I think?

0:12:22- Yeah, assistive touch, something like that, thank you.

0:12:25I was about to ask, is this an accessibility issue?

0:12:27But I would suppose assistive touch

0:12:29would fix any of those problems, I'm not sure.

0:12:32But it's a change.

0:12:33- Well, the issue would be

0:12:34that you could no longer feel the button.

0:12:36'Cause now you can feel that ring.

0:12:38So like John was saying, you can more easily tell

0:12:41which direction the phone is oriented

0:12:43without a physical depression on the front surface

0:12:46where the home button goes,

0:12:48it's harder to tell which way is up by feel alone.

0:12:51So that would be an issue for sure.

0:12:53And I don't know how they would solve that.

0:12:54Maybe you would just start getting used to feeling

0:12:56for the camera bump or other features on the outside.

0:12:59I don't know.

0:12:59- If it is a dedicated area, they could do haptics

0:13:03to make it do the tiniest little jiggle

0:13:06when your finger is over the reserved bottom section

0:13:09of the phone.

0:13:10There's all sorts of things they can do.

0:13:11- That's interesting.

0:13:12playing playing switch games with its little uh...

0:13:15has been a couple of articles recently about the

0:13:18haptic engine in the nintendo switch which is looks like the same tech that

0:13:22apples been using its phones but i feel where they're called linear something

0:13:25or other whatever but it's

0:13:26it's better than the old vibrators are more precise in their using in games

0:13:30uh... to make it feel like things on screen have some kind of physical

0:13:33presence

0:13:34and it's

0:13:35surprisingly easy to

0:13:37for loss i mean just we just talked about the home but last time i could

0:13:40doesn't feel like a button

0:13:41but it feels like a thing that we rapidly get used to

0:13:44and come to accept as the physical reality of the phone.

0:13:48And I think the best thing would be like,

0:13:50if you could turn off, I mean, I suppose you can,

0:13:52isn't there some way to turn off vibration entirely?

0:13:54Can you turn off the haptic engine entirely?

0:13:56- I would assume so, but I don't know.

0:13:59- Yeah, but anyway, if it did turn off,

0:14:01our devices would feel broken in a different way,

0:14:03because we'd be like, this is not how my glass rectangle

0:14:05is supposed to move or feel.

0:14:06So adding something like,

0:14:08"Oh, when your finger physically touches the correct bottom part of the phone, it gives

0:14:14the tiniest little jiggle, and that would be a physical way for you to feel with your

0:14:19hands which side is the top or bottom of my phone."

0:14:21It wouldn't activate anything yet because you haven't actually pressed, but basically

0:14:25when you're feeling for that little circle, you want to know which side is up.

0:14:30You need that information to be provided physically.

0:14:33That little circle is about as subtle as the little jiggle could be.

0:14:36And once you find which side is up, if the whole bottom of the phone functions as one

0:14:39giant button, it's even easier to hit than that little circle.

0:14:41So that problem is solved.

0:14:43So real-time follow-up to turn off system haptics, which has a subtitle of "Play Haptics

0:14:49for System Controls and Interactions."

0:14:51That's in settings, sounds, and haptics.

0:14:53And then there's options for vibrate on ring, vibrate on silent, sound and vibration patterns,

0:14:59and all the way at the bottom is system haptics, which is a switch yes/no.

0:15:03Does that turn off the home button?

0:15:05switch them all and find out. No, the home button still does a haptic click. Yeah. I presume because

0:15:10it would be really, really eerie if it didn't. It would feel broken. I mean, to us, if you're used

0:15:15to it, it's like it's whatever you get used to, but it would feel like it doesn't, it's not the

0:15:18same physical device anymore. Right. That's the thing about haptics, like, oh, it's faking a

0:15:23physical, this gets another one of my pet peeves that my, you know, things being done in hardware

0:15:30on video cards, which is like now an increasingly dated peeve from the 80s.

0:15:34Mechanical keyboards, that phrase drives me nuts because, you know, like, please show

0:15:39me the non-mechanical keyboards.

0:15:42I can do that.

0:15:43Do you remember when they used to have the ones that they would like shine?

0:15:47It looked like laser, like a laser keyboard, but it wasn't actually lasers, I'm sure.

0:15:51Yeah, and how did you use, and how did you use those keyboards, Casey?

0:15:56You put your fingers on a surface.

0:15:58take your finger and you move it you mean you take no you're missing the

0:16:02point you're just shining light on a surface say like on a desktop no John

0:16:05saying your fingers the machine I know what thing you're talking about but you

0:16:08can't activate it with your mind you have to physically move your hands and

0:16:13press them into certain areas you don't have to press but you have to place your

0:16:16fingers into the zone where the keys are that is a physical action but the

0:16:21keyboard itself is not moving John wait so like when when a conductor waves the

0:16:25stick around in front of a band, is that considered a mechanical device?

0:16:29You know, yeah. I would say, I don't know. It's difficult to say what you consider

0:16:34mechanical because it's not like that light is just being emitted naturally from the desktop.

0:16:39We need an episode of mechanical or not.

0:16:41This is definitely a pretty broad definition of mechanical that you're using here, Joe.

0:16:46Right. But when people talk about—really, in the context I'm saying when people talk

0:16:49about mechanical keyboards, they're saying as compared to the keyboard that I'm sitting

0:16:52in front of, which is the Apple aluminum extended, which is 100% mechanical. The keys move, you

0:16:59know, making contact with a thing that causes a signal, but it's not a quote-unquote "mechanical

0:17:05keyboard." It's a very strange interpretation.

0:17:07Wait, can I nitpick your definition of 100% mechanical?

0:17:10Yeah, what part of it is a mechanical?

0:17:12I'm pretty sure there's like a USB controller in there and a bunch of...

0:17:16No, I mean the keyboard part of it. I mean, it's the same thing with mechanical keyboards.

0:17:19you're just activating a switch, it's so electronic. It's not like it's steam powered,

0:17:23it's not like a typewriter where you're hitting a lever that's causing a big thing to whack into

0:17:26a piece of paper that makes your key. >> [LAUGH]

0:17:29Jason Snell, can you fix this for us so we don't have to do it?

0:17:32>> I know what people mean when they say mechanical keyboards is just a silly phrase.

0:17:35Like it is a term that has taken on this alternate meaning that doesn't really make sense if you

0:17:39think about it, but it is accepted as a term of art, so we all just say it and don't think about

0:17:43it. >> Help me, Jason Snell,

0:17:44you're my only hope. >> But what I was getting at before

0:17:46I derailed myself. I get that reference. Was the idea that haptics are a replacement for things

0:17:56like the physical home button, right? When they're not, you know, they work by doing a physical thing.

0:18:05Something in your phone is moving, causing you to feel that motion. It's just an entirely different

0:18:11motion than the surface that you pressed moving downwards relative to the surface surrounding it.

0:18:16But something is moving and you are feeling it as a physical sensation.

0:18:21So it is an alternate physical action to replace other physical actions.

0:18:26It is not the removal of physical buttons with non-physical buttons.

0:18:30I would say the iPhone 7 button is still a physical button when haptics are turned on.

0:18:35Because you press as a physical action and you tell that your press has been registered

0:18:40or successful because you feel a response.

0:18:42response is not your finger getting lower inside the thing, but it is a physical sensation.

0:18:48And so this distinction between physical and non-physical controls, as haptics get better,

0:18:53like maybe it'll be like mechanical keyboards, it's just that that's the way we'll describe

0:18:56it and, you know, we won't bother thinking about whether it makes sense or not.

0:19:00But it is a clever way to make a device more reliable while still doing the thing that

0:19:08works best with humans.

0:19:09We have hands and fingers that are sensitive to motion.

0:19:14It's a good way to tell how things are happening

0:19:17without looking at them.

0:19:18So you can feel in your pocket just like a physical,

0:19:21you know, physical buttons

0:19:22as opposed to those non-physical ones.

0:19:23I can feel where the volume controls are.

0:19:25I can feel where the power button is.

0:19:26I can feel where the home button is.

0:19:28I can feel that it has been activated.

0:19:29I can physically press it.

0:19:30All that stuff plays to the strengths

0:19:33of our hands and fingers, which is how we use our iPhones.

0:19:36And so anything Apple does related to that is wise to leverage those abilities.

0:19:42In the same way that the Touch Bar tries to do that, but because it has no haptics, you

0:19:47are left with kind of a surface that you have to look at more than you would otherwise,

0:19:52and you can press on it, but it's more like a touchscreen in that it doesn't do anything

0:19:57when you press any of those things.

0:19:58Which is another reason a lot of people have difficulties with the Touch Bar, is that it

0:20:01is replacing buttons with something that is less button-like.

0:20:05Whereas I feel like the iPhone 7 home button replaced the button with something that is,

0:20:08it's like an alternate take on a button, but it is, you know, it's like they replaced the

0:20:13function keys on the MacBook with the screen from the iPhone.

0:20:17The screen is not the same kind of a button because they don't know where the buttons

0:20:20are going to be, but on the touch bar it seems like you could know they were kind of, you

0:20:23know.

0:20:24Anyway, this is just my mild musings on haptics, but I think they are, long term I think there's

0:20:31legs to this whole haptic thing.

0:20:33I mean, as Apple has been so excited and proud to show its little, you know, how much better

0:20:39the vibration is in each phone and this haptic engine that they brand with this haptic stuff,

0:20:46I think they're actually onto something there.

0:20:49I think we'll just see more and more of that from Apple and other companies because it

0:20:52works with humans.

0:20:53That could be Apple's slogan since they're not doing the computer with the rest of us

0:20:56anymore.

0:20:57The computer with the rest of us anymore.

0:20:58It works with humans, TM.

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0:22:55Let's talk about WikiTribune, of which I know basically nothing and I am failing at my job as chief summarizer and chief.

0:23:03So Marco, I feel like I saw you tweeting about this when it first broke.

0:23:07Do you want to kind of fill us in as to what WikiTribune is about?

0:23:10Honestly, I barely know. I just signed up because I wanted to support this cause.

0:23:16So,

0:23:17John, can you give a better summary than I can?

0:23:20This has been in the notes like three weeks people

0:23:22But I think I think one place we can start is Marco with his lack of knowledge

0:23:26Why did you decide to sign up for what did you do by saying up?

0:23:30Did you did you like have to give money or pledge to give money like what?

0:23:32It was the sign up thing that you did

0:23:34It's some kind of like pre commitment type system like Kickstarter

0:23:38But like I don't think they're gonna charge me until they hit their minimum or unless they hit their minimum

0:23:41Something like that, but it is a money thing like yours. Yeah, supporting this effort with money, right? Yeah, I sign up to make a monthly

0:23:48donation or whatever it is to...

0:23:49- Alright, so what led you to do that?

0:23:52- Well, basically there's a lot of things about journalism

0:23:57these days that I think are really dysfunctional or broken.

0:24:02And this seems like it could fix some of them.

0:24:06Not all of them, you know, I don't think it's probably

0:24:09possible to fix all of them, but this could fix

0:24:11some of them in a fairly big way.

0:24:13So if it works, that'll be great.

0:24:15If not, you know, I lost a little bit of money

0:24:17all in the way and then I'll stop losing it

0:24:19when I cancel it, that's it.

0:24:21It seems like a good cause.

0:24:23I feel like all of the Wikipedia donation prompts

0:24:27that I've ignored over the years

0:24:30and closed over the years without giving,

0:24:33I feel like maybe I owe something to Jimmy Wales' causes.

0:24:35So here I'm gonna finally make that good, I guess.

0:24:39- So to go back and give a vague summary

0:24:41of what the heck this thing is,

0:24:42it is from the Wikipedia guy.

0:24:45You've seen his face at the top of Wikipedia asking for money.

0:24:47Now you can see his face on a different website asking you for money for a different thing.

0:24:52So it has the pedigree of Wikipedia, which is a tremendously successful community platform

0:24:58for doing whatever people do on Wikipedia.

0:25:03And this is about trying to make the news better.

0:25:05Like Marco said, he's got some of the same complaints about news and the incentive structures

0:25:09and how it doesn't lead to good information being disseminated and there's lots of anti-patterns

0:25:14and with how it's funded and what gets published and how it's published and versus what people

0:25:21want to read and you know what sells ads and so on and so forth.

0:25:24So this is a sort of Wikipedia style approach to news where it's very open and transparent

0:25:30so everyone who's reading can see what's going on.

0:25:32There's no ads so you don't have to worry about the entire thing being made to you know

0:25:36to drive ad views which is a problem in the web in general not just on you know news and

0:25:40and everything like that.

0:25:41And like Wikipedia, it is community oriented

0:25:45where it's not just like these people produce the content

0:25:48and the rest of the world reads it.

0:25:50Everybody participates in, in theory,

0:25:52making the things better.

0:25:54Although there are professional journalists involved as well.

0:25:56So it's not just like, "Hey, make up whatever you want

0:25:58and publish whatever you want."

0:25:59Because that's just called the web.

0:26:00That's not anything.

0:26:02(laughing)

0:26:04And trying to, you know, be transparent to the people

0:26:09who are giving money.

0:26:10you know, how are they going to fund all this through people like Marco,

0:26:12the same way Wikipedia is funded. How does Wikipedia exist?

0:26:15Jimmy Wales head asks you for money every once in a while.

0:26:18And there are I'm assuming they're investors or stuff like that.

0:26:21And they have this kind of Venn diagram at the top where it shows, uh,

0:26:26three circles. And the three circles are community facts and journalists.

0:26:31And Wiki Wiki Tribune is the confusing diamond shaped

0:26:36intersection of the three of those circles.

0:26:38When I see the intersection between three circles, I don't get a diamond shape, but

0:26:42it's a logo.

0:26:43There's some creative license there.

0:26:44It's fine.

0:26:45Yeah, and so I think Marco's explanation of why he gave money is probably why a lot of

0:26:51people gave money.

0:26:52It's like, or you know, because it is like a Kickstarter.

0:26:55It's like, you know, you pledge money, and if everything goes well, you will get charged

0:26:59for your money or whatever.

0:27:00And it probably will because this is very popular.

0:27:03But it seems like a small amount, and just like a Kickstarter, you're like, "I don't

0:27:07know if they'll ever ship this damn cooler. But it looks cool. So yeah, spoiler alert.

0:27:14So like it's not a big deal. Like if they never go anywhere or if I fund it for a few

0:27:20months and it's not that good, whatever. But I think there is an appetite for an attempt

0:27:26to find a solution to the fix all of, you know, journalism finds itself in at this moment

0:27:33in transition between the old world of newspapers and the way that they were funded and the

0:27:37barriers to entry in this new world where it's much easier for more people to publish,

0:27:41but it's much harder to find ways to fund content that isn't sort of lowest common denominator,

0:27:47you know, because people go—what people want to read and what would be most beneficial to society

0:27:56if people were to read are two very different things, and that is a—you know, the incentives

0:28:01are not aligned. If the only way you can get money is by attracting people to read things,

0:28:06you will inevitably end up giving people what they want, which is not always what they need,

0:28:11which is a paternalistic view that people hate, like, "Oh, the people in the ivory tower are

0:28:14going to determine what I need to see. Why can't people just pick what they need to see?"

0:28:17There's a balance. Like, I mean, even in the bad old days of my childhood, when there was no

0:28:22internet, there were things called tabloids that provided you same stuff that you can find on the

0:28:27internet now. It's not like that stuff is like, "Oh, that didn't exist before the internet."

0:28:31Of course it did. Like, you know, "Bat Boy found," "The National Enquirer," like, you know,

0:28:35aliens are everywhere, right? That stuff has always and will always exist. And I'm not even

0:28:41sure if it's any more prevalent than it is today. The difference today is that the sort of slow

0:28:46motion decline of the ivory tower, we know what's best for you, we're going to apply a bunch of

0:28:52reasoning and rules that you don't know about or agree with to try to provide what we think is,

0:29:02you know, the news that's fit to print. And that has been in slow decline, mostly rightfully so,

0:29:07because it's kind of a concentration of power that is not, you know, that is artificial,

0:29:13you know, technological barriers to distribution information causing it to exist. But I would also

0:29:19say that in this new world where it's easier to distribute information, a lot of people like Marco

0:29:23and me, and I would imagine Casey, are less satisfied with how things are going. Not that

0:29:29we want to go back to the old ways, because that was banned in a different set of ways, but the

0:29:32that there are pathologies in the new structure of news that we wish we could get rid of.

0:29:40It's like, you know, we all want to read really good, high quality journalism according to

0:29:46the, you know, the system of journalism is something that most of us can agree upon,

0:29:50kind of like the scientific method. It's just the question of, it is, you know, how is it

0:29:54executed by fallible humans, and how do we provide the resources for it to be executed?

0:30:02And that's what this thing is trying to provide.

0:30:04Now my personal grudge against, disagreement with, indifference to Wikipedia as an institution,

0:30:13depending on how you want to phrase it, gave—it caused me to have a little snarky chuckle

0:30:20when I saw this Venn diagram here.

0:30:22It's like community journalists and facts right underneath Jimmy Wales.

0:30:25I was like, "Oh, oh, now you care about facts, Jimmy Wales.

0:30:28I thought it was just all about verifiability."

0:30:30Wait a second.

0:30:31And maybe they don't mean facts.

0:30:32Maybe they actually mean verifiability.

0:30:33But that's the thing about journalism.

0:30:35Journalism, you know, like they are pursuing the truth of what happened.

0:30:41It's not enough for a journalist to say, you know, there's one, you know, one thing for

0:30:44reporters to say, "Let me just tell you what somebody said."

0:30:47But journalists try to uncover the truth.

0:30:48they can find out what really happened by talking to more people and gathering evidence,

0:30:54that's part of journalism too. And the journalist is not going to call it a day when they have

0:31:00quotes from three prominent people about what happened. The journalist would like to know,

0:31:03"Yeah, but what really happened?" Right? "I know these quotes are verifiable. I know you

0:31:07said this at this time, and this other paper published this thing, but what really happened?

0:31:11What are the facts?" And that is an important part of journalism that is not an important

0:31:17part of Wikipedia because Wikipedia doesn't care what the hell the facts are because that's

0:31:19not what it is. It's a tertiary source. I don't want to go off on all my rants about

0:31:23Wikipedia again. So it's kind of exciting to see this taking a different slant on things.

0:31:29But as I scroll down through their plan and see journalists and community cooperating,

0:31:34all I can think about is this is like a battle arena for edit wars. It's like edit wars distilled.

0:31:40Because if you think there are edit wars on the Wikipedia page for insert favorite controversial

0:31:45political figure. Can you imagine what the Edit Wars will be like on literally any actual

0:31:50current event news story in the current political climate? Like, there's almost nothing you

0:31:54can put in there, you know, articles being, you know, fact checked and verified by journalists

0:31:59and community members working side by side as equals. I just picture a giant arena with

0:32:06like people with boards with nails sticking out of them. Like, I don't, I'm not sure how

0:32:11it can work. And you can say, well, look at Wikipedia, it works.

0:32:13- Yeah, I mean like, that's the biggest example.

0:32:16Wikipedia has the same issue.

0:32:18Any kind of political topic also has a Wikipedia page,

0:32:23and they've built systems and policies and norms up

0:32:27around controlling that problem there too.

0:32:30I think if anybody has shown that they have the ability

0:32:35to manage that part of this, it's the people

0:32:38who made Wikipedia and who built that whole community up.

0:32:41So that I think, I'm actually not concerned

0:32:43about the whole edit war problem.

0:32:45I also don't think--

0:32:46- Well, don't you think Wikipedia is a counter example?

0:32:48'Cause like-- - No.

0:32:49- The fact that so many pages on Wikipedia

0:32:52are incredibly locked down because of the edit wars,

0:32:56almost to the point where they become frozen in time,

0:32:58which is kind of okay for historical things,

0:33:01but for pages that are ongoing,

0:33:03they become the sole domain of a very small number

0:33:06of people who have even the ability to edit page,

0:33:09and everybody else is completely locked out,

0:33:11And yet still they have edit wars and arguments

0:33:15about what goes on.

0:33:16Like, you can't do journalism in that environment.

0:33:19I feel like the controversial pages on Wikipedia

0:33:22are A, not the best source for information on their topics,

0:33:26and B, do a terrible job of staying up to date,

0:33:29and C, do not allow the input from the community

0:33:32because they have to be walled off.

0:33:34They have to be cemented, set in stone,

0:33:35guarded night and day, incredibly protected.

0:33:39They become ossified.

0:33:41I think the best pages on Wikipedia are the pages that few people care about.

0:33:45But you know, the classic example of being like lists of Pokemon and stuff, right?

0:33:48Because a lot of people care.

0:33:49Well, maybe there are edit wars in Pokemon, sorry if I'm picking.

0:33:53But pages that are on more obscure topics, because the only people who edit and contribute

0:33:57to them are the people who really are interested in the topic.

0:33:59No one cares enough to vandalize it or edit them, and no one is there telling them what

0:34:03they can and can't add, and especially if they don't have any kind of political or factional

0:34:07angle.

0:34:08Again, Pokemon may not be a great example.

0:34:10end up being filled with all sorts of interesting and useful information.

0:34:13Whereas the stories in any topic that has any controversial, any part of it that's controversial,

0:34:18you're better off just scrolling to the bottom, looking at all the references and reading

0:34:20all those than actually reading the Wikipedia page.

0:34:22So I mean, I get what you're saying about they have systems in place, but I think the

0:34:25systems negate the advantages they're trying to do, which is fine for Wikipedia because

0:34:29every page on Wikipedia is not a super-duper controversial page.

0:34:32In fact, very few of them are.

0:34:33So the vast majority of Wikipedia is awesome when you just want to get a quick plot synopsis

0:34:38of a particular episode of Dr. Hugh in a particular season.

0:34:41That's on Wikipedia, and you'll find it quickly, and the webpage won't be gross or filled with

0:34:45ads, and it's a reliable source for that, because no one cares enough about to screw

0:34:49with it, or as reliable as any source could be.

0:34:51But when you go do any page having to do with any controversial topic, I feel like, like,

0:34:56when's the last time you read a Wikipedia page on a controversial topic?

0:34:58Like, I don't even bother going to them anymore.

0:35:00Like, I would, again, rather just scroll right down to the references and read the, you know,

0:35:05primary and secondary sources than this tertiary summary

0:35:07'cause it doesn't speak to me

0:35:09as a great source of information.

0:35:12- Well, I mean, keep in mind that these days,

0:35:15every fact is a controversial topic,

0:35:17even those basic things that you would think wouldn't be.

0:35:21And also that WikiTribune is, I think, largely

0:35:25probably not gonna have this problem

0:35:28because it's probably not gonna be that big of a deal.

0:35:30If it does become a big deal,

0:35:32if it does actually start attracting large amounts

0:35:35of traffic, then I think it will rise to the levels

0:35:39of these kinds of challenges that Wikipedia has,

0:35:43'cause Wikipedia's been such a massive traffic getter

0:35:47for so long, so it's ranked so well everywhere.

0:35:49But WikiTribune is starting from zero.

0:35:52It's starting from no audience, basically.

0:35:54So it might be a while before you've had enough people

0:35:57to matter, and honestly, I disagree with you.

0:35:59I think Wikipedia is as good as something like this could be

0:36:03about dealing with controversial things like that.

0:36:06It's a hard problem, but--

0:36:07- But it depends on the controversy.

0:36:09The main controversy having to do

0:36:10with Wikipedia controversial pages is the idea

0:36:12that the people who hold the keys to power

0:36:14to the controversial pages themselves tend to be homogenous

0:36:18and have various biases, let's say.

0:36:20- Yeah, that's a problem.

0:36:21- And that the system itself has no way to deal with that.

0:36:23Like that it concentrates power.

0:36:26I'm thinking of WikiTribune as perhaps an unintentional back door way to get people

0:36:32to just straight up pay for news, which many people, the front door way has been like,

0:36:36"Hey, sign up for the New York Times Digital.

0:36:38Like, can we make money from people paying us to read our web pages?"

0:36:43Everyone's been trying to do that.

0:36:44It's really difficult, the whole paywall thing, right?

0:36:46WikiTribune is like, "We're open and free to everybody, man.

0:36:49Fast forward five years if they get super popular and they lock everything down."

0:36:52And eventually it's like, "Wait a second.

0:36:54This is just a newspaper.

0:36:55where professional journalists do things and people pay them.

0:36:58And it's not a giant community published thing.

0:37:00It is like a bunch of articles that nobody can edit

0:37:03because every single story about the president

0:37:05is super duper controversial.

0:37:07And every one of them is super locked down.

0:37:09And the only people who get edited

0:37:10are the professional journalists

0:37:11who get money from the contributors

0:37:12and the five people who all happen to be

0:37:15the same type of person with the same type of background

0:37:17who has the time and inclination

0:37:19to spend all day on Wiki Tribune.

0:37:21And now it is just a weirdly organized newspaper

0:37:23that people pay for, which wouldn't be the end of the world

0:37:25because again, that's things that people have been looking for.

0:37:27Hey, can we get people to pay money to support news?

0:37:30Like, as opposed to wanting everything for free

0:37:33and wanting every article to be, you know,

0:37:36a clickbaity tabloidy celebrity news kind of thing.

0:37:40I guess if they do that, they're kind of a success,

0:37:42but I have a hard time envisioning a future

0:37:46where they are wildly successful

0:37:51and yet still even open to the degree

0:37:53that Wikipedia is open,

0:37:54because unlike Wikipedia, pretty much everything

0:37:58a news organization will report will attract factions.

0:38:02Like you said, Marco, they could report on the weather

0:38:06and people will leave nasty comments

0:38:10about climate denial and stuff like that.

0:38:12I can't think of a topic,

0:38:13there's not even a human interest story.

0:38:15You were trying to put something about dogs

0:38:16and people won't like it.

0:38:17Like nothing is safe in this climate.

0:38:18So they have their work cut out for them.

0:38:20But all this said, I don't feel like I'm slamming

0:38:23could be on the potential what it could be. I didn't donate any money, but I wish them

0:38:29well because I also, like Marco, want somebody to address this problem, and no one has tried

0:38:36this approach, no one of this caliber has tried this approach, so we're not going to

0:38:40find out if it works unless somebody does it. And so I'm like, "Alright, you know, go

0:38:44for it." Certainly, the fact that facts with a little arrow is a big circle in the middle

0:38:49makes me happy. By all means, go for that. The other aspect of this is, say they succeed

0:38:55in producing what they say they're going to produce, and their system produces good content.

0:39:01Do people read it?

0:39:03I guess.

0:39:05Like is that something people want to do? I want to go to WikitreeBoon because they

0:39:09have, they got their facts straight?

0:39:11I mean, everyone wants a non-partisan news source, right?

0:39:15No, they don't. No, everyone wants to hear their own biases reflected to them and reinforce.

0:39:20That's what people want.

0:39:21Okay, fair, fair, fair.

0:39:22That's what I'm saying. How do they get people to come and read this? It was easier

0:39:26when you only had a few choices, and all those choices had systems in place that constrained

0:39:35what could be talked about, which perpetuated tons of systems of power in terms of whose

0:39:41stories got to get told with what angle on them. So it was terrible in many, many ways.

0:39:45But the good aspects of it were in the areas where the system wasn't completely aligned

0:39:51against hearing about things that we weren't supposed to hear about, there was an expectation

0:39:56that, for example, the news department and advertising were separated from each other

0:40:01in some way. Like that was part of the principles that they worked based on. And that only works

0:40:06if the news department isn't responsible for bringing in more money year after year after

0:40:10year and that ship has long sailed so now it's like gotta make more money got

0:40:13to get more viewers how do we do that tell them what they want to hear and the

0:40:16cycle just goes around the round that's what this is trying to resolve so say it

0:40:19resolves it and they make real quality news but no one ever comes and reads it

0:40:22are they still a success maybe I don't know I think I really think this could

0:40:29be very popular because I think somebody like that the two of you guys and myself

0:40:36somebody like us, who wants to be informed but wants a very level-headed

0:40:41take as to what's going on, I think this is a potentially, well maybe not

0:40:46perfect, but really great answer to that need. I agree with you that I shouldn't

0:40:52have said everyone wants this because a lot of people probably don't want this,

0:40:55but I also think there's a lot of people that do want this, that do want a level-

0:41:00headed take on things. That's why, for example, in my RSS reader that I rarely

0:41:04Look at it anymore. My source of news is the BBC because I have the BBC's US coverage and I feel like that is the least

0:41:12politically

0:41:14Motivated news source that I can find I don't need to hear of better ones

0:41:18I don't really care if the BBC isn't perfect. That's I'm not trying to start a fight here. Well, they're just they're just

0:41:25Reinforcing your biases. That's why you like them if it could be very well could be that's why that's the situation

0:41:31I think we find ourselves in.

0:41:32- Wait, wait, what if your biases are true and facts?

0:41:36- Well, let's take me out.

0:41:37(laughing)

0:41:38The idea, here's the problem with polarized marketplace

0:41:42is that things don't exist in isolation.

0:41:45Say there was a news source that did a really good job

0:41:50of executing journalism, classic journalism,

0:41:52the rules of journalism, which, you know,

0:41:54like the traditional rules of journalism

0:41:56in terms of what you're supposed to do as a reporter

0:41:59and what your job is and isn't, all separate from editorial and opinion, which is a whole

0:42:04separate thing, but just like the plain straight up journalism reporting thing.

0:42:09There's still an editorial function deciding what should and shouldn't you cover, how many

0:42:15stories in topic A, how many stories in topic B, how many stories about this aspect of whatever.

0:42:22It's impossible to ever pull yourself entirely away from that.

0:42:25And it's also impossible to think about what your publication is doing in isolation.

0:42:30You exist as a publication in an ecosystem with tons of other publications.

0:42:35And a lot of the ecosystem is defined by how many people read or watch or whatever consume

0:42:42these different publications.

0:42:43And in that environment, that's why you see a lot of people on our side of the world,

0:42:49liberals or whatever, being drawn to liberal-leaning publications.

0:42:54Because they see it as the only possible way to counterbalance the things leaning in the

0:43:00other direction.

0:43:01Because we know those things that lean in the other direction exist.

0:43:04We know, we all think they're terrible, and we know tons and tons of people use them as

0:43:09their exclusive source of news.

0:43:11And so by providing a neutral thing, it's like, well, that's all well and good if we

0:43:16just want to know what's happening.

0:43:17But if we want to balance the scales, we have to have a left-leaning publication.

0:43:23eventually you're like, "I want to read the left-leaning thing," because all I hear all

0:43:26day from people who I disagree with is them citing their super-duper right-leaning things.

0:43:32And that's how you end up with polarization. Super-duper left-leaning, super-duper right-leaning.

0:43:36And so I don't feel like I want that. I tried to find something that I think is in the middle,

0:43:42but like Casey with the BBC, I'm sure what I think is in the middle is not actually in

0:43:46middle and really what I'm seeking is some, you know, some—it's not in the execution of the

0:43:53journalism, but in the choice of what they're reporting about, right? Or in the choice of like,

0:43:58you know, what their editorials are about and how they apportion their coverage, because that in

0:44:03itself is a political stance, right? So when I read the Washington Post, I feel like here's

0:44:08good reporting, they're still executing journalism according to the old ways, but what the Washington

0:44:13Post decides to cover is decidedly left-leaning in terms of the number of stories on topic A, B, C,

0:44:18and D, right? And I'm okay with that, but I would still, you know, and I would still say

0:44:24the Washington Post and even the New York Times are examples of good executions of classic

0:44:29journalism, but I would also agree that both of them are quote-unquote "left-leaning" as compared

0:44:35to the choices of things and headlines that the right-leaning publications choose to cover,

0:44:40and they're a counterbalance, right? So if there was something that was really straight up the

0:44:46middle, I'm not sure that would be doing much of a service, because especially if the polarized ends

0:44:52continue to be what they are, unless everybody at the ends kind of agrees, like the Wikipedia,

0:45:00the Wicket Tribune is like the tiebreaker, right? And as Marco pointed out before, and we'll keep

0:45:04going back to, that is impossible in a world where we can't agree on the facts. There is no,

0:45:09it's like, "Well, we have this left-leaning editorial selection, and we have this right-leaning

0:45:15editorial selection, but we all agree that the facts are what are on WikiTribune, right?" And

0:45:18be like, "No, no," the right will say. "We don't agree on facts at all." And so, what function is

0:45:23WikiTribune even serving there? Unless it starts getting cited by other newspapers, which would be

0:45:28funny, but we'll see. I mean, at this point, there are people actually arguing whether to let people

0:45:35die in our country who were sick once because they don't have enough money and they should

0:45:39therefore die. That is literally what we are arguing about.

0:45:43I liked it better in the 80s when they had sophisticated ideological arguments, but they've

0:45:49abandoned those now. It's just like, "Why should you get to live?" It's like, "Good

0:45:53point there, evil person. Why should I get to live?" What right do I have to life or

0:45:59with liberty or any kind of looking for happiness.

0:46:02That sounds crazy to me.

0:46:04- Yeah, well, I mean, it was your fault

0:46:05that you got sick when you were a teenager or something.

0:46:10So therefore, the penalty for that

0:46:12should obviously be death, right?

0:46:14- Why don't you try living right, Marco?

0:46:16You ever think of that?

0:46:17- Yeah, I mean, look, we all did it, right?

0:46:19Why can't you?

0:46:21Oh my God.

0:46:22- Yeah, you know, the Jimmy Kimmel son,

0:46:23did you guys watch that monologue

0:46:24from a few days ago? - Oh, I couldn't.

0:46:26I heard enough about it that I couldn't watch it.

0:46:28No, it, I, so I saw it fly by. I've been doing a couch to 5k lately and, uh, and during one of the

0:46:35walking parts I was like, you know, cruising through Twitter as I was power walking, probably

0:46:38looking like a moron, but be that as it may, whatever day it was, this, this popped in the

0:46:43morning onto my, you know, my world and I watched it, or listened to it, I should say. I didn't watch

0:46:49any of it, but I listened to it as I was like going between walking and running and walking

0:46:52and running and basically I was on the verge of bawling the entire time. But if you're one of

0:46:57those monsters that thinks that a pre-existing condition is something that, you know, just—that's

0:47:03enough to disqualify you. That's cool. You should read—you should listen to this story about Jimmy

0:47:08Kimmel's son, who was born with a terrible heart defect, and were it not for some of the protections—

0:47:14I—we shouldn't be getting this political, but here we are, without some of these protections that—

0:47:18Steven: No, I mean, you know, it's important. You know, like, certain—you know, we—as we've

0:47:22we've talked about, like certain times, politics or other world events do bleed into

0:47:27relevance to all people. And I think this is one of those times. Like, this is a topic

0:47:32that is, among many things, so politicized more than I think it probably should be. And

0:47:41I think a lot of that is intentionally artificial to hide the things that the politicians really

0:47:47want to get accomplished, which mostly have to do with money for themselves and, you know,

0:47:51their class of people and their associates and lobbyists

0:47:53and everything else.

0:47:55So there's lots of that stuff going on

0:47:56in the background here.

0:47:58And we're arguing about whether people

0:48:01who have not been as lucky as some of us

0:48:03should go bankrupt and die because of that.

0:48:07And that is unconscionable.

0:48:10- Yeah, yeah, so anyway, so this Jimmy Kimmel thing,

0:48:13it's a little under 15 minutes.

0:48:15It's worth every second in my personal opinion.

0:48:17And like I said, I was on the verge of bawling

0:48:19the entire time I listened to it.

0:48:20But the short, short version is his son had a terrible heart defect, he is now fine, and

0:48:28if some of the changes to American healthcare that have been proposed pass, then his son

0:48:36would never be able to have health insurance for the rest of his life because he was born

0:48:40with a problem with his heart.

0:48:43So yeah, I guess his son should have been living in the womb better and made better

0:48:47choices in utero, and then he wouldn't have this problem, right?

0:48:50That's how this works?

0:48:51Yeah, maybe he listened to too much heavy metal music?

0:48:53Who knows.

0:48:54I mean, and the thing is, like, this isn't, it's not like this is a theoretical.

0:48:58It's not like, you know, we think people will go bankrupt and die because of this.

0:49:02We know because that's how it was before the ACA.

0:49:05A lot of people went bankrupt and died.

0:49:09This is not a small thing.

0:49:11This is not an unknown.

0:49:12It's very much known.

0:49:14We were there.

0:49:15It was horrible.

0:49:17We tried to fix it as best as we could,

0:49:20and it wasn't perfect, but the right fix

0:49:23is not to go back to that.

0:49:24We've seen it already.

0:49:26We've tried that.

0:49:27I don't know why this is even possibly

0:49:29a point of contention.

0:49:31Well, I do know why, really, but it's not a good reason.

0:49:33- Yeah, and one of the things that was fascinating

0:49:35by about having this tweet that I'd sent in January

0:49:40about the Affordable Care Act,

0:49:43which we'll link all this in the show notes,

0:49:45but one of the fascinating things about having a tweet

0:49:47gets retweeted 16,000 times is that everyone and their mother comes and tells you about

0:49:51why you're right, why you're wrong. And in the tweet that I had tweeted read, "Opposition

0:49:56I've heard to the Affordable Care Act. Number one, it costs me money. Number two, it's not

0:50:00perfect. Support for the affordable if that I've heard for the Affordable Care Act. Number one,

0:50:05I would have died without the coverage of guaranteed." Which is what we're talking about.

0:50:10And man, so many people came out of the woodwork and like, "No, you don't get it. It's about this.

0:50:13it's about that. One person had said, I forget how he phrased it, but it's something along the lines of,

0:50:20"I shouldn't have to pay for people who eat McDonald's all the time to deal with their

0:50:25diabetes." Okay, I live a healthy life, I shouldn't have to pay for all these unhealthy people.

0:50:31Well, aren't you a winner? But anyway, after just hundreds of stories about the Affordable Care Act,

0:50:39why it's great and why it's terrible. The only good, or in my estimation anyway, the only good

0:50:44answer I heard about why the Affordable Care Act was bad was that some people said, well, I make

0:50:49enough that I'm priced out of all the subsidy tiers, and I'm way oversimplifying here, but I

0:50:53make enough money that I'm priced out of all the like super cheap tiers, but I don't really make

0:50:58enough to afford like the, the whatever the opposite scenario was, I forget what it is. But

0:51:04but basically they were in this like negative, this really terrible middle of the road.

0:51:08Here's an example, this is somebody that tweeted, "I pay more than I can afford for insurance

0:51:13with a deductible too high to matter."

0:51:15That's pretty crummy, and that should get fixed.

0:51:18But everything else was like just people who basically are looking for their fellow man to die

0:51:23because they didn't want to pay for them to live.

0:51:25And that's just, I don't understand how this is a question.

0:51:27How is this a question right now? I don't get it.

0:51:30get it. That's the thing is like like there's you know that that sentiment of

0:51:34like why should I pay for the people who you know are unhealthy like that is such

0:51:38a toxic way to think because like okay well let's follow that through if that's

0:51:44what you think that you don't that you shouldn't have to pay for people who are

0:51:47you know who do things that you don't like or whatever and that makes them

0:51:49unhealthy even though a lot of times they can't help what has made them

0:51:53unhealthy but anyway suppose you don't want to pay for it okay what should the

0:51:57what would the penalty be for someone

0:51:59who does this thing you don't like who can't afford it?

0:52:02Is that punishable by death?

0:52:03Is that an appropriate penalty?

0:52:06Literally, is that your actual position?

0:52:10Like if that's what you think.

0:52:11- Don't ask questions you don't want the answers to,

0:52:13because they would say, "Yes, of course,

0:52:14"they're getting what they deserve."

0:52:15That's exactly what they say.

0:52:16- Right, I mean, if these people actually think that way,

0:52:18I think they should own that.

0:52:20I think they should come right out and say,

0:52:21"Yes, I think all these people

0:52:22"who can't afford their healthcare should die."

0:52:25Like if that's what they think,

0:52:27Let's bring that discussion, let's see how that discussion goes in the ocean.

0:52:30- We have people in Congress owning that at this point.

0:52:32- That's true.

0:52:33- I don't think that's a position people are shrinking from.

0:52:35- I know, I mean, but the thing is like,

0:52:37you can apply that kind of thinking,

0:52:40why should I have to pay for that,

0:52:41to everything that government provides.

0:52:43That's kind of the whole nature of government.

0:52:45It provides a bunch of services with people's tax money,

0:52:49most of which, any given person probably doesn't directly

0:52:54use a lot of these services, but they also benefit

0:52:57from lots of other ones, and it's a different pool

0:53:00for each person, you know, and that's the role

0:53:02of government, like, why should I pay for a giant military

0:53:06that starts wars I don't want?

0:53:07Well, that's just part of the government,

0:53:09like it's part of our system, we vote for things,

0:53:13and you know, this is what happens,

0:53:15and sometimes our votes even are counted properly

0:53:17and equally, and I just, this is so toxic,

0:53:22And I wish I knew what it was that made people so hateful

0:53:27of everybody else, really.

0:53:28Like, maybe it's just 'cause everyone else listens

0:53:31to way less fish than I do,

0:53:33but I just cannot possibly understand what it is

0:53:38that makes someone think to themselves,

0:53:41oh, those people don't deserve to live.

0:53:44Like, I don't get that at all.

0:53:46And that makes me really sad

0:53:48that that is such a prevalent attitude.

0:53:52- That's why I was saying,

0:53:54harking back to the days of the '80s

0:53:55when it was commonly accepted

0:53:58that the goal was to make people healthier,

0:54:01and the only argument was about how best to do that.

0:54:04The free market can do it.

0:54:05No, the government can do it.

0:54:06No, the government is inefficient and bloated,

0:54:07and we will have a better system

0:54:09if we allow competition, and blah, blah, blah.

0:54:10Like, that was the level of the argument

0:54:12that was going on, right?

0:54:13And these days, that is not the level of the argument.

0:54:18accepted premises of trying to get everybody as healthy as possible like

0:54:21Can people barely on the right give you know barely make faints in that direction like that

0:54:28They're not even interested in saying you don't understand this way people will actually be healthier fewer people will die like

0:54:36Everyone will you know, that's they'll say that at the broad level

0:54:39But they will not make they will not actually show how the numbers add up. They will not show their math

0:54:44They'll not say look here's what we say even if it's just BS predictions BS sort of trickle-downy predictions

0:54:49If we allow this to happen this competition happens here and there what's gonna happen?

0:54:53You know, let me show you my BS model with BS predictions that are gonna do that

0:54:57They're like we don't need to do that. We just wave our hands and

0:55:01you know pit one person against the other and

0:55:05Get what do what it takes to get this past

0:55:10And then you know then we end up with what we end up with I

0:55:13Miss I miss the the pretend intellectual debates is what I'm saying. I

0:55:17Just I don't get it just makes me so sad like it's just it just I don't understand how any

0:55:25Intelligent human being with three brain cells to rub together can think that the Affordable Care Act is bad

0:55:31I just don't get it like oh, it's not perfect. Oh, it is bad

0:55:34I mean it's but but it's you know, it's like what should we move to something worse?

0:55:38I'm gonna say no.

0:55:39I'm gonna say no, we shouldn't do that.

0:55:41- Right, it's the whole perfect enemy of the good thing.

0:55:43Healthcare is a hard problem.

0:55:46It's really expensive to provide healthcare for people.

0:55:50That has to be paid for somehow,

0:55:52whether it's people paying themselves

0:55:55or whether it's government single payer kind of things

0:55:57or some kind of weird thing in between like what we have now.

0:56:00It's a hard problem.

0:56:02It's a really hard problem.

0:56:04But the ACA took this really hard problem

0:56:08that was really in a bad state before,

0:56:10and made it less bad.

0:56:12And yeah, the cost went up.

0:56:14We're all paying more now for worse coverage.

0:56:17But that was happening anyway.

0:56:19Anybody who was actually paying for their coverage

0:56:21before the ACA saw that trend already.

0:56:24In fact, with the ACA, I'm still now paying less

0:56:29than what I paid the year before the ACA went into effect.

0:56:31And the coverage isn't as good,

0:56:33but I'm actually still netting less per year

0:56:35in expenditure for it.

0:56:37And also, I'm way less worried about some crazy,

0:56:41hitting some crazy limit, or you know,

0:56:43like a lifetime limit, or pre-sitting conditions,

0:56:45all of a sudden excluding everyone from everything.

0:56:47Like, this is a better system, and it still sucks.

0:56:51And that's why people are so mad,

0:56:52because it is still really expensive,

0:56:54and coverage still does really suck,

0:56:55and we all have high deductibles now,

0:56:57and we all have like, having to go through

0:56:59crappy mail-order pharmacies for our prescriptions.

0:57:01But that was happening before.

0:57:03Whatever the Republicans get through,

0:57:06whatever they do to this, I guarantee you,

0:57:09your coverage is still gonna be really expensive

0:57:12and you're still gonna have to deal with BS

0:57:14from mail order pharmacies and having to fill

0:57:16all these different referrals and everything.

0:57:18That's all gonna still be there.

0:57:20And your costs are gonna go up the year after that

0:57:22and the year after that and every year after that.

0:57:24Your costs are going to keep going up and up and up.

0:57:27This, whatever they pass is not going to solve that.

0:57:31It can't.

0:57:32What they, all they're trying to do

0:57:34is go back to the way it was before the ACA, which sucked.

0:57:39And yeah, the ACA sucked, but that sucked way more before.

0:57:43And that's what they wanna go back to.

0:57:45It is really hard to talk about this

0:57:47because literally thousands of additional people

0:57:50will die every year because of this.

0:57:51Like this is not a small thing.

0:57:54This isn't just like,

0:57:55oh, I'll have an extra 200 bucks a month.

0:57:57It's just like, no, thousands of people will die.

0:58:00And like, you know, you look at things

0:58:02that change in our country,

0:58:03policies, laws, liberties that change in our country

0:58:07as a result of, say, September 11th.

0:58:10Lots of things change because of that.

0:58:13And then if you look at how many people are dying

0:58:16unnecessarily because of not having proper healthcare,

0:58:19it is such a massive problem and so many people

0:58:24go bankrupt or die or both unnecessarily,

0:58:29it is unconscionable to me that we still continue

0:58:33to try to go back to the way it was,

0:58:36because it was worse.

0:58:37And again, I know why people are so mad at the ACA,

0:58:42because they see those bills coming in every month

0:58:44for the healthcare, and they, oh yeah,

0:58:46my premium keeps going up, my coverage keeps getting worse.

0:58:48Yeah, but that was happening before.

0:58:50This made it a little bit less crappy for everybody.

0:58:54And now we're gonna go back to that.

0:58:55I just, it's awful.

0:58:58- It's a cut off your nose to spite your face situation,

0:59:02and after tomorrow you won't be able to get your nose put back on.

0:59:06And then it'll be a pre-existing condition if you try to switch coverage.

0:59:09So you're just screwed the whole way down.

0:59:11But don't worry guys, at least the figurehead of the new system won't be a black guy.

0:59:15So it's all good now.

0:59:16Yeah. Or woman. Heaven forbid.

0:59:18[music]

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1:01:03Amazon releases the Echo Look.

1:01:05Here again, I don't know a lot about it, except in this case it's because I really don't care.

1:01:10But apparently it's an Echo with a camera that will tell you if you look good or not,

1:01:15or something along those lines.

1:01:18So what's going on here, and are we enthusiastic about it?

1:01:22John, you get one?

1:01:24- I don't think I'm gonna get one of these,

1:01:26but I actually am, I'm not gonna say

1:01:28I'm enthusiastic about it,

1:01:29but I think what it is doing is a natural thing to do,

1:01:33and I think we're going to see more of it, not less.

1:01:35Like in the same way that I was strangely,

1:01:39or at least not uniquely, but it was,

1:01:42I think I had more enthusiasm for the Amazon Echo

1:01:44when they first showed that little ad with the cylinder.

1:01:46More optimism, let's say,

1:01:49that this could potentially be a cool useful thing,

1:01:52then most people who saw it,

1:01:53because they were like, this looks dumb,

1:01:55it's never gonna work.

1:01:55And I had the same kind of this looks dumb

1:01:57and it's not gonna work as well

1:01:58as they show a working reaction to.

1:02:00But I was also kind of like this class of device,

1:02:05seems like it could be a thing.

1:02:06And now I see this, which is like essentially a little camera

1:02:09so imagine combining with an echo with a camera.

1:02:12It's a camera that you can talk to,

1:02:14that has some awareness of who and where you are,

1:02:16and it has some specific functionality,

1:02:18having to do with fashion and Amazon trying to sell you clothes and yada yada

1:02:21like I don't think the details matter that much except that this is like

1:02:26because it's Amazon and because they have the pedigree of the echo that this

1:02:29product and because they're gonna push it like crazy on their website that this

1:02:32product has as good a chance as any to be the first product to get any kind of

1:02:37traction in this category and the category is simply a computer that you

1:02:43can talk to that also can see you. Right. The Amazon Echo and the Dot and Google Home

1:02:50and all those things are like a computer that you can talk to. A computer that you can talk

1:02:53to that can also see you. Natural evolution. The number of things that you can do with

1:02:59that ability with all of our, even just current technology for like facial recognition and

1:03:04identifying things in scenes and, you know, connect to Xbox style, understanding gestures

1:03:11and your position, the position of your body and stuff like that.

1:03:16That is a rich vein of interaction with computing devices that we should begin to tap.

1:03:24And if it has to be a weird fashion camera that spas on you and uploads pictures of you

1:03:27to Amazon to sell you more clothes, I mean, the cylinder ended up being an Amazon thing

1:03:33to let you buy paper towels by talking to it.

1:03:35Things come in weird packages, right?

1:03:38And I suppose it beats the old way, which is everything had to be attached to porn in

1:03:42some way to get an interaction, although this potentially could be as well.

1:03:46But I am enthusiastic about the future of devices that are computers that can hear and

1:03:53see you.

1:03:54And so I think there needs to be more of these things, and they need to get better, and they

1:03:59will be cool and make our lives better, provided we can avoid all the pitfalls that – which

1:04:04which is basically all people are talking about, all the privacy and security and just

1:04:10general creepiness implications.

1:04:12But I think the foundation is sound, so I wish them some success and I hope they learn

1:04:16from it and branch out.

1:04:18I'm just now watching the video quickly with no audio.

1:04:22I'm just looking at the video as you're talking.

1:04:24And I think I would have noticed, but certainly it was called out in one of the podcasts I

1:04:30this week that there isn't a man in this video until like the last 10 seconds, which is actually

1:04:37pretty cool that they're, you know, pitching this directly at women. And I think it stands

1:04:42to reason that your average woman would be more enthusiastic about this than your average

1:04:46man. Obviously, that's not a universal truth, but I think that's kind of cool. And I personally

1:04:53am not in love, partially because I haven't really lived it. I'm not in love with the

1:04:57with the idea of an Echo in general,

1:04:59let alone an Echo with eyes, but again,

1:05:02just because I'm not really gaga for it

1:05:04doesn't mean it's not a good idea and not a good device.

1:05:06It's just it's not something that I feel like

1:05:08I need right now.

1:05:09Marco.

1:05:10- So first of all, there was a great discussion about this,

1:05:14especially by Lisa Schmeiser, who knows a lot about retail,

1:05:17on the first episode of the new Relay podcast

1:05:20called Download.

1:05:22This is kind of, this is like Jason Snell's

1:05:25of new hosted show, almost like an expanded clockwise, but more broad and even more produced

1:05:31and like even more wide audience. I'm guessing over time this might become the biggest show

1:05:37on Relay and one of the biggest tech shows, period. So I would suggest getting on the

1:05:41ground floor and going to subscribe to Download Now at relay.fm/download. Anyway, they didn't

1:05:47pay me or even ask me to say that, but I think you should because it's really good. Anyway,

1:05:52discussion on episode one by Alicia Smizer especially about this from the retail point

1:05:56of view from a lot of good knowledge that we don't personally have but I greatly enjoyed.

1:06:02Anyway, I'm with you. Obviously, this is being marketed heavily towards women and it's hard

1:06:07for me to fully understand it as both a man and also a man who doesn't care at all about

1:06:12his own personal fashion. And so it's…

1:06:15Steven: Except on your wrist.

1:06:16Tim Cynova Except on my wrist. I care very much about

1:06:18that but I don't need a camera to tell me which watch to wear every day. I just put

1:06:21on the one that I feel like wearing and I enjoy it. But you know, if there was one that

1:06:27took a wrist shot for me every day and compared, you know, and gave me like a wrist book of

1:06:34shots of how I looked over time, maybe that might do something interesting. I don't know.

1:06:42Bottom line, this isn't for me and so I don't want to try to, I don't want to make large

1:06:46proclamations about it either way because it's fundamentally a product, I don't understand

1:06:50And this made very clear to me by the reactions on Twitter when this was announced.

1:06:56It was extraordinarily polarized.

1:07:00Tech dudes like us largely said, largely made fun of it and said, "Why would anybody want

1:07:05to buy this?

1:07:06Oh my God, Amazon is nuts."

1:07:09And a lot of people who were not tech dudes, who, you know, I would venture to guess that

1:07:14most of us, myself included, probably wear the basic, you know, t-shirt every day that

1:07:20that we don't have to wear something for work.

1:07:22T-shirt and jeans maybe, that's kind of the uniform

1:07:24of tech, a hoodie if it's cool or if you live

1:07:26in San Francisco.

1:07:27That's kind of uniform of tech geeks.

1:07:30So all of us looked at this and said, this is crazy,

1:07:33why would we let Amazon put a camera in our bedroom

1:07:35to do this thing we don't care about?

1:07:37But people who were really into clothing and fashion

1:07:41really enjoyed this.

1:07:43The reaction from most of them, and this wasn't all women

1:07:47I should say, I'm very carefully trying to dance around

1:07:52the women angle here because I don't want to be sexist,

1:07:55but it is very clear that this is how this is being targeted

1:07:57and I did see very different reactions from most women

1:08:02compared to most men in my timeline,

1:08:04but I really don't want to say anything more than that

1:08:06because I don't know what I'm talking about.

1:08:08It is not at all for me,

1:08:10but I think this will probably succeed.

1:08:14When the original Echo Cylinder first came out,

1:08:17we all made fun of it.

1:08:18'Cause first of all, the way it was presented,

1:08:20the video it was presented in was awful.

1:08:22I mean, it was comically bad.

1:08:25And it was pretty soon after the Fire phone,

1:08:27and so we were pretty sure, like, yeah,

1:08:29Amazon really is nuts with their hardware,

1:08:31like they don't know what they're doing.

1:08:32It did indeed sound crazy,

1:08:35that you're gonna put a microphone in your house

1:08:37that listens all the time and is owned by Amazon, really?

1:08:40But then it only takes like one friend to get it,

1:08:43and for you to be at their house for a little while,

1:08:45and with them using it to kind of see like,

1:08:48oh, actually, that's pretty cool.

1:08:51And so it is the kind of thing where like,

1:08:53it does sound kind of ridiculous up front,

1:08:57but it might succeed anyway.

1:08:59And I think all you need to know,

1:09:02to know whether it will succeed or not,

1:09:03is like, is there any group of people right now,

1:09:06right up front who are saying,

1:09:07oh my God, yes, give me that right now.

1:09:09And the answer, from what I can see, is yes.

1:09:12My wife wants one, I know a bunch of other people on Twitter

1:09:15who said they wanted one.

1:09:16Again, it isn't for everyone,

1:09:18but it is probably definitely for some people.

1:09:21And so even though it seems creepy to me as a nerd,

1:09:25it's gonna be a thing.

1:09:26And I think I would not discount Amazon in this.

1:09:31I would not assume they're crazy.

1:09:33I will occasionally make funny tweets about it,

1:09:36but I do think they're probably going to sell this.

1:09:38And it's probably gonna become part of a bigger thing.

1:09:41And it's probably gonna have its own little weird oddities,

1:09:44just like every Amazon product always does.

1:09:47But I think it'll work long term.

1:09:49- I don't think you need to have any weird speculation

1:09:51and say like, oh, this will be for some people,

1:09:53because like it is so right down the middle

1:09:55of things that we know people already like to do

1:09:57in massive numbers.

1:09:58People like to take pictures of themselves.

1:10:00The word selfie is known too far and wide

1:10:03for a very good reason.

1:10:04If you look at how people use social media

1:10:06and how many times they're taking pictures of themselves

1:10:09or what they're wearing, very often on a regular basis,

1:10:13Right? This is merely an automation of that in the same way that the Amazon Echo is an automation of all the things you have other ways to do.

1:10:21Like this is not speculative that people might want to take pictures of themselves or their outfits.

1:10:26Right? This is just, you know, so there's so clearly a market need.

1:10:30The only question is, does this product automate it in a way that actually makes it easier to do a thing that we know people want to do?

1:10:37We know they want to do it. They do it like crazy now, manually, the hard way.

1:10:42Having something that's, you know, this is, again,

1:10:45as the first application of a computer

1:10:46that can also see you, right?

1:10:48Having something that can do that

1:10:50with the smarts that we have developed

1:10:51for cameras to find where the heck you are

1:10:54and, you know, take good pictures of you,

1:10:56it is easier for a computer to do that

1:10:58than to you to try to do it yourself

1:11:00with a mirror or holding out your phone

1:11:01or doing other sorts of stuff like that,

1:11:03especially if it becomes in the same way

1:11:05that the Echo does, like, this becomes so easy,

1:11:08it just becomes part of my routine, right?

1:11:10the people who meticulously catalog their outfits each day

1:11:14that they're proud of their outfits,

1:11:15that is a big effort that most people don't go through.

1:11:18But it's like Marco said,

1:11:19if Marco didn't have to think about it,

1:11:20but just went through his day and put on his watch,

1:11:22and at some point,

1:11:23at some point, 20 years in the future,

1:11:26when his grandchildren are visiting

1:11:28in his super duper fancy smart home,

1:11:30he just wakes up in the morning,

1:11:31picks out what watch he wants to wear, puts it on,

1:11:33and then at the end of the month,

1:11:35can view beautiful in-focus close-up shots

1:11:37of every watch he wore on every day.

1:11:39How did those pictures happen?

1:11:41Because the cameras that are all over his house invisibly

1:11:44can always find him and take these amazing photographs

1:11:47in low light, perfect focus,

1:11:49and he doesn't have to pose for them,

1:11:50and he doesn't have to do anything.

1:11:51In the same way that the magic checkout counter,

1:11:54you know, barcode scanner,

1:11:56just you bring the food by and you kind of twirl it

1:11:58and spin it by the little scanner

1:12:01and the little lasers will find it, right?

1:12:02In that same type of technology,

1:12:05if you had a bunch of smart cameras in your house

1:12:08that eventually will be so cheap and so good

1:12:11that they will be able to do this

1:12:12without you having to stand in a certain place

1:12:14or do a certain thing.

1:12:14That is the future that is coming to.

1:12:17The questions about it are all legit questions

1:12:19in terms of who owns this data.

1:12:21Is it okay for Amazon for us to upload it to Amazon

1:12:24and for them to keep it forever?

1:12:25And how is this funded if the hardware

1:12:28isn't profitable itself is entirely funded about it

1:12:30as a way to sell us clothes or whatever.

1:12:34And what are the security implications

1:12:36and how hackable are these?

1:12:37All of these are gonna be,

1:12:38there's gonna be terrible disasters in all these areas,

1:12:40but there is no denying that the amount of computery things

1:12:44in our house will only increase with time

1:12:46and that it is kind of a ratcheting mechanism

1:12:49and that this first one aiming, you know,

1:12:51aiming to be a mechanization of a thing

1:12:54that we know people already love to do is very smart

1:12:58and builds on their echo stuff.

1:13:00As for the things I talk about

1:13:02in terms of technology and privacy,

1:13:03I think Amazon is probably terrible in them.

1:13:05I think their security is probably crap.

1:13:06I think their privacy policy is probably terrible.

1:13:09I think if they're hacked,

1:13:10people are gonna get tons of data

1:13:11and people will regret getting these things

1:13:13if that ever happens.

1:13:14If it doesn't, Amazon gets lucky.

1:13:15If it does, we will all just regret it together

1:13:18as people have a giant archive of photographs

1:13:21and audio of you over many, many years

1:13:23that use Amazon devices.

1:13:24But even Marco, famously paranoid,

1:13:26is willing to take that trade

1:13:27because they do make his life better enough

1:13:29that he's willing to take that risk.

1:13:32And most people are not as paranoid as Marco

1:13:34and won't think twice about this

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1:15:09They've taken what basically all of us wanted from the new MacBook Air that we have yet

1:15:15to receive and made a Surface laptop out of it.

1:15:20I love that you assume that a new MacBook Air is something that is coming.

1:15:24It just isn't here yet.

1:15:25Ah, fair, fair.

1:15:27But yeah, so the thing that we all wanted, which would effectively be a new Retina MacBook

1:15:32Air with better internals and better ports and whatnot, Microsoft seems to have just

1:15:37released it.

1:15:38So I think they're pre-ordering soon if memory serves.

1:15:42As we record, I don't believe it's available for purchase.

1:15:45But the very little bit that I've looked into it,

1:15:49it looked really nice.

1:15:50- Yeah, I mean, I think it's really interesting,

1:15:52first of all, that the Microsoft Surface branding

1:15:56was originally for, well, first it was for the giant table.

1:15:59And then it went away for a few years.

1:16:01And then it came back as this consumer,

1:16:04convertible laptop/tablet thing.

1:16:07and then it slowly became closer to regular computers

1:16:11and now they're just like, "Alright, screw it,

1:16:14"here's just a laptop and we're gonna call it

1:16:15"the Surface laptop." (laughs)

1:16:17And it's like they did all these crazy things

1:16:20and they could just kind of slowly work their way back

1:16:22to what most people actually want in their computer,

1:16:24which is a traditional style laptop.

1:16:27And it does have a touch screen, so bonus points for that.

1:16:29I do want to also point out, we Apple people,

1:16:32we keep following the company line of like,

1:16:35"No, we shouldn't have touch screens on computers,

1:16:36Nobody wants that, but meanwhile, touch screens have become

1:16:40very prevalent on PCs, and most people who use them

1:16:44seem to kinda like them.

1:16:48Like, people seem, you know, they might not use them

1:16:50all the time, or they might not use them for a lot of things,

1:16:54but people who use them seem to enjoy them, largely.

1:16:57- Yep, completely agree.

1:16:58- So I do think that is something that should not be

1:16:59totally discounted as a thing, and maybe Apple's right,

1:17:03but they're sure to seem like a lot of people

1:17:06are using them.

1:17:08Anyway, but I also think it's interesting that

1:17:11when the original Surface, not the table,

1:17:13but the very first weirdo, bizarre tablet laptop thing,

1:17:17when that first came out, it really seemed like

1:17:19this really niche, low volume, low selling device.

1:17:24But over time, Microsoft has been persistent

1:17:26and has just kept iterating and iterating,

1:17:29and now, Surface's are actually pretty common.

1:17:31I see them out all the time.

1:17:33And I don't know if I just don't recognize

1:17:35other PC hardware, so maybe I don't visually notice it or count it. And whenever people

1:17:40on Twitter do coffee shop surveys, like Gruber likes to do sometimes, or I see some other

1:17:44people doing it, where like, "All right, number of MacBooks in this coffee shop, 10,

1:17:49and number of Surface, 3, number of iPads, 2," stuff like that. Surface tend to be represented

1:17:55pretty well, just like anecdotally out in the world. There seem to be a lot of them

1:17:59in coffee shops and in airports and on planes and on commuter trains, stuff like that. So

1:18:04So I do think that it is worth, I hope Apple is noticing,

1:18:09and they probably are, they're smart over there,

1:18:11I hope they are noticing that these experiments

1:18:15that Microsoft has been doing with the Surface over time

1:18:18seemed outlandish at first.

1:18:20Not only are they getting less outlandish over time,

1:18:23as we all realize that some of those things are good ideas,

1:18:26but also they're getting pretty popular.

1:18:28And so I think that is something

1:18:29that we should not be ruling out.

1:18:33And some things are popular that are terrible.

1:18:36I mean Dave Matthews Band, right?

1:18:37But their popularity I think should not be overlooked.

1:18:42And we should not assume that everything about the service

1:18:45and its line of products is Microsoft being weird and wacky

1:18:48'cause a lot of it's sticking.

1:18:49So that is worth pointing out.

1:18:51So this particular computer,

1:18:53it looks pretty compelling for a lot of people.

1:18:56I mean, in a lot of ways it's specs are lower end

1:19:00than the MacBook Air.

1:19:01It can be, although it is much newer,

1:19:04the MacBook Air still has, I think like three generations

1:19:07old now, parts, something like that.

1:19:09And this, I believe the Microsoft Surface laptop

1:19:13is Kaby Lake, so it's like really current.

1:19:15If the MacBook Air had Skylake or Kaby Lake,

1:19:19it would get way better battery life.

1:19:21And it's already amazing, which means they could do

1:19:23some pretty cool things, but they're not.

1:19:25But they made the MacBook Pro instead,

1:19:28and we'll talk about that in a minute, like the escape.

1:19:30But this laptop looks really good because

1:19:33when the MacBook Air first came out,

1:19:34it was like the specialized thing,

1:19:36but over a pretty short time,

1:19:38it pretty quickly became like the mainstream laptop to have.

1:19:43And now it's the low-end laptop to have,

1:19:46but they still sell a ton of them

1:19:48because the 13 inch MacBook Air especially,

1:19:50like that form factor, like that combination,

1:19:52as I talked about before in the show,

1:19:54that's a really good sweet spot for a lot of people.

1:19:57It's an incredibly compelling overall package.

1:19:59there's a reason why everyone has MacBook Airs

1:20:03and almost everyone who has them loves them.

1:20:05It's no coincidence that when Apple introduced,

1:20:10that's quite a mistake,

1:20:11when Apple introduced the new MacBook Pros

1:20:14and kind of made it clear that the MacBook Air

1:20:16was on its way very slowly out

1:20:20and that the new MacBook Air replacement

1:20:22was this 13-inch MacBook escape that is more expensive

1:20:27and in some ways more limited.

1:20:28A lot of people were very upset about that.

1:20:30It's like, no, you took this formula that we liked so much

1:20:33and now you're telling us that it's over

1:20:34and you're replacing it with something

1:20:36that's more expensive and more limited?

1:20:37So Microsoft comes along and says,

1:20:38all right, well you know what, here,

1:20:39this computer that you wanted, here, we just made it.

1:20:42We made like a up-to-date, basically,

1:20:45version of a retina MacBook Air shaped and sized computer.

1:20:50And in most ways it looks a lot like the MacBook Air.

1:20:54Again, if you match it spec for spec,

1:20:57it's about the same price as the Air, although newer,

1:21:02and it is a few hundred dollars cheaper

1:21:06than the MacBook Escape for similar specs.

1:21:08Again, I think they're going to sell a lot of these.

1:21:10Now, they aren't the first PC maker

1:21:12to make a MacBook Air clone.

1:21:14PC makers have been making these for a while.

1:21:16Largely, I think one of the reasons

1:21:18why services have taken off so well

1:21:20is that PC hardware is largely total crap.

1:21:24Like, it is really bad.

1:21:26Like the designs are crappy,

1:21:28they're cheap plastic builds,

1:21:30and just designs with very poor taste.

1:21:33And Microsoft's designs have largely been pretty good,

1:21:36like for the Surface hardware.

1:21:38They've had a couple of weird little missteps here and there,

1:21:40but so has Apple, no one's perfect.

1:21:42So Microsoft's actually, I think, doing pretty well here.

1:21:45And if I were buying a Windows PC for some reason,

1:21:49it would almost certainly be a Surface product of some kind.

1:21:53Or I'd build my own, if it was a desktop probably.

1:21:55But let's say if I was buying a PC laptop for some reason,

1:21:59I would almost certainly get one of these.

1:22:01- I agree with you.

1:22:02The thing is, obviously my career prior to my current job

1:22:07was all in the Microsoft stack,

1:22:09and so though I don't have any particular love for Microsoft

1:22:12in a nostalgic sense, I have admired the way

1:22:15they've really changed themselves,

1:22:18and really kind of adjusted the way they operate

1:22:22with Satya Nadella at the helm,

1:22:24and I think they've been doing a really good job,

1:22:25have been doing really fascinating stuff for the San Franciscans, they pivoted.

1:22:30So anyway, the funny thing is though, you can't really make Microsoft lose all of its

1:22:37old bits because as I'm trying to get the URL for the Surface laptop to put in the show

1:22:42notes, I arrive at microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/enus/pdp/productid.5102691100.

1:22:51as I load that page, the page itself has been dimmed and I have a modal. Don't miss out.

1:22:58Sign up to receive special deals, new offers, and more." No. The answer is no. So you can

1:23:05make Microsoft a lot better in general, but you can't ever really make Microsoft forget

1:23:09that they're Microsoft, can you?

1:23:11Well, but what's the actual name of the MacBook escape?

1:23:14I – oh, the MacBook Pro.

1:23:17I believe it's the late 2013 13-inch MacBook Pro without touch bar.

1:23:21Fair point, fair point, fair point.

1:23:22- With delete me in all caps at the end.

1:23:24(laughing)

1:23:27- So anyway, but no, other than that,

1:23:30I think this looks really great.

1:23:33I agree with you if I were to buy a PC,

1:23:36it would either be a Lenovo or very, very likely

1:23:39a Surface laptop or something like this.

1:23:41I agree with you that everything I've heard

1:23:43from people who have touchscreen laptops,

1:23:44they swear by them.

1:23:45I think that seems really kooky,

1:23:47but it's probably one of those things

1:23:48that I just haven't tried it and so I don't get it.

1:23:52And certainly for iOS simulator,

1:23:54that would be super helpful.

1:23:55So in that sense, I do get it.

1:23:56But I do like that there are different colors available.

1:24:01I don't recall what colors there are,

1:24:03but there's certainly several shades

1:24:04that you can get them in,

1:24:05which is really kind of stupid, but I like it.

1:24:08And I think that's kind of neat.

1:24:10- Apple, look, Apple just sells like, you know,

1:24:12the pink, gold, and dark gray 12-inch MacBook.

1:24:15That's fine.

1:24:16Like there's nothing wrong with a little bit of color

1:24:18in your life, tech people. It's fine. Color is nice.

1:24:21Although here again, like the marketing copy is preposterous. If you look at the bullets

1:24:32under Surface Laptop, luxurious Aucantra fabric-covered keyboard is bullet number two. Come on. I

1:24:39mean, and Apple has their moments. Don't get me wrong. Apple is not innocent in this department,

1:24:43but luxurious Aucantra fabric-covered keyboard, really, guys?

1:24:47I'm glad you can't pronounce that word either, despite reading it in car magazines for the

1:24:50past several decades.

1:24:51I thought it was Alcantara.

1:24:52I don't know.

1:24:53You never have to say it out loud when it's in car magazines, and all of a sudden you're

1:24:56faced with this word.

1:24:57You got to do it a syllable at a time.

1:24:59Alcantara.

1:25:00There we go.

1:25:01Yeah, it's like Bizelle.

1:25:02In any case, Jon, what do you think about this?

1:25:04So the narrative for this is, like Marco said, "Oh, Apple wouldn't make this laptop.

1:25:10This is the retina MacBook Air that we have all wanted."

1:25:13But as Marco already pointed out, it's not like there haven't been a million PCs that

1:25:17that are similar, that are like small, thin, use the MacBook Air class of processor, but

1:25:22are newer and have a retina screen and so on and so forth.

1:25:26For this computer specifically though, this is not the retina MacBook Air that I would

1:25:31want assuming it ran Mac OS, and not just because it's got a fuzzy top, which is kind

1:25:36of weird and I think will get kind of gross.

1:25:40If Apple made this computer, I would right now be complaining about the ports and the

1:25:44RAM.

1:25:45that you shouldn't even offer a computer with that much.

1:25:48It's stupid, don't do that.

1:25:50And the ports, one big USB,

1:25:52one mini display port thingy,

1:25:55headphone, like no USB-C.

1:25:59That's not a modern computer.

1:26:00Like I'm not saying you have to have all the ports

1:26:01in the world, but especially if you're gonna be a PC,

1:26:05like provide me utility.

1:26:06The utility that Apple won't add would be, you know,

1:26:10like what this thing has, except for USB-C

1:26:14instead of playing USB, maybe throw in one regular USB.

1:26:16It's not like there's not room.

1:26:17Like this is not a MacBook size, super duper skinny thing.

1:26:20It's big enough that you could fit some more ports on there.

1:26:22And if I'm looking for anything in a PC,

1:26:24it's to do the port stuff that Apple won't do.

1:26:26So give me my ports, put some USB-C on there,

1:26:29put one regular USB, put an SD card slot.

1:26:31Don't give me one big USB and one mini display port

1:26:35and that's it.

1:26:36Like I feel like it is RAM starve and port slim

1:26:40and form factor wise,

1:26:43If I'm gonna buy into the Surface brand,

1:26:45I know this is just like, this is a Surface laptop.

1:26:46Like they do have a touchscreen on it,

1:26:48but just like they do on the Surface Book and everything,

1:26:50but those can sort of transform into tablity things

1:26:53where all of a sudden the touchscreen is much more viable.

1:26:56I'm not saying you don't wanna have a touchscreen

1:26:57'cause they should leverage the advantage they have,

1:27:00which is they have created an OS that is touch accessible.

1:27:04Right, that's the whole thing that they've done.

1:27:05They have one combined OS

1:27:07that it is usable with your finger.

1:27:09You're not, you know, in theory,

1:27:12The interface that is on the screen has some chance of being used by your big, you know,

1:27:1844-point in Apple parlance fingertip surface, right?

1:27:22And that's what they're telling people to make.

1:27:24Make an application that is usable in that way, or make controls and buttons and widgets

1:27:29and things that are usable in that way.

1:27:31Mac OS is not like that.

1:27:33So one of the advantages that Microsoft has when it comes to directly competing against

1:27:37the Mac, not iOS, but the Mac, is that they have an interface that is available for touch.

1:27:42But touch on a plain old upright laptop screen like this,

1:27:45you're right, the PC has been doing it forever.

1:27:47And you're right that people do like it

1:27:48because they can touch the screen.

1:27:49But I think Apple's also right that it is a,

1:27:51it is not a great experience.

1:27:54So I don't say there's a reason

1:27:55they shouldn't have put touch in here,

1:27:56but I wouldn't chalk it up as much of an advantage.

1:27:58It's more of a, well, we can do it anyway

1:28:00and we got to do it,

1:28:01but it makes me wish almost that

1:28:03this was a straight up laptop,

1:28:05but that the hinge went all the way around

1:28:06and you could just bend it back on itself, right?

1:28:08You know, like the convertibles

1:28:10that they've made a million different varieties of.

1:28:12If it's not gonna, I can get on board with them

1:28:14not disconnecting it, but if it's gonna be a touchscreen,

1:28:17what if there is some application

1:28:18that I really wanna use a touchscreen with?

1:28:20It is extremely awkward to use a very touch-centric interface

1:28:25when it's in a laptop configuration.

1:28:28So I put that down mostly as a neutral.

1:28:31And then so then I'm just like left with a laptop

1:28:32that is kind of middle of the road, kind of strange,

1:28:37not a good complement of ports

1:28:38and the low-end model has terrible specs.

1:28:39So I'm not impressed with it as a laptop,

1:28:41but I do agree that Microsoft has been trying everything

1:28:46that you can conceivably try

1:28:47and that they are putting in the work

1:28:49to make an operating system that embodies their vision

1:28:52for how computing, how a single operating system

1:28:55can span multiple form factors

1:28:56and all that other good stuff.

1:28:58Styling-wise, the fur aside or the fuzzy fabric aside,

1:29:01I still think Microsoft Surface and PCs in general

1:29:08are sticking too closely to the Apple design formula.

1:29:13Like they have their own twists, they have their own colors,

1:29:16fabric and the weird hinge and all stuff like that.

1:29:18But Apple has so dominated the aesthetic for laptops,

1:29:22basically from the PowerBook days,

1:29:23when they defined the current shape of laptop.

1:29:26Keyboard goes there, pointing device goes here,

1:29:28screen goes there.

1:29:29It took a while for PC to get on board with that,

1:29:33but that defined it in the same way

1:29:34that the iPhone defined the smartphone form factor.

1:29:37And when Apple came out with the modern MacBook lines

1:29:39with the big flat square key caps

1:29:42and this little perfect rectangle that Johnny Ive loves

1:29:44and the big touch pad and like all the quote unquote

1:29:48high-end PC laptops have been following along

1:29:51with that aesthetic as if it is the one and only true way

1:29:54to make laptops and I don't think it is.

1:29:56There is variety out there and a lot of varieties ugly

1:29:59and you could like, oh, I'm glad Microsoft is sticking

1:30:01with the Apple design school because it looks good

1:30:03and it does, but it also doesn't allow them to stand out.

1:30:06very often speaking of coffee shop surveys,

1:30:08I'm in a coffee shop and I have to squint

1:30:10to make sure I can make out from the front.

1:30:12Is that a MacBook Air or is it, you know,

1:30:15it's easier from the back 'cause you can see

1:30:17the little Windows logo, which is, you know,

1:30:20better than the old Windows logo, but whatever.

1:30:21Anyway, Apple says that you have to have your company logo

1:30:24dead center in the back of your screen,

1:30:25so that's what they do.

1:30:27But from the front, it's like,

1:30:28you could mistake it for a MacBook Air.

1:30:30And I think that is leaving money on the table style-wise,

1:30:33that I believe there can be a different aesthetic

1:30:35that they could be pursuing instead of

1:30:37what they're currently doing,

1:30:38which is like Apple style, but with a twist.

1:30:41So I'm not particularly impressed by this product.

1:30:43I was much more impressed by the Surface Studio Pro.

1:30:46But all of these products, all Microsoft hardware products,

1:30:50and even to some degree, the software products,

1:30:53reveal gaps in Apple's lineup.

1:30:57I'm not gonna say they're necessarily weaknesses,

1:30:59but they reveal gaps.

1:31:00Like their operating system reveals the fact that there,

1:31:03the things fall through the gaps between iOS and macOS,

1:31:06whether 1.0 OS, 2.0 OS is the right strategy,

1:31:07either way it shows gaps.

1:31:09And all these variety of Surface Books

1:31:11and Surface Studio Pro reveal gaps in Apple's lineup.

1:31:14And that like, if you want a really big touchscreen

1:31:16that runs Pro apps,

1:31:17the biggest you can go on Apple is 12.5 inch.

1:31:20And if you want an OS that's touch accessible, that's iOS.

1:31:23You know, and like there's this big gap between

1:31:26Pro hardware that in theory is coming to the Mac soon

1:31:29and Touch OS and Apple has separated those two

1:31:32from each other, whereas Microsoft has a combined OS

1:31:34and a combined hardware strategy.

1:31:35So I find that the most interesting thing

1:31:37about the Surface efforts, and I suppose it's interesting

1:31:40that they're extending the brain to a plain old laptop,

1:31:42but this plain old laptop does not seem to be

1:31:45a particularly compelling product beyond the fact

1:31:48that it is a Surface branded laptop,

1:31:50but I applaud Microsoft for taking the Surface hardware

1:31:53and software brand and extending it outwards,

1:31:56and hopefully they have some success.

1:31:58We haven't even talked about Windows 10 S,

1:31:59I don't know if we have time for it,

1:32:00but that is a whole other aspect of this.

1:32:02We'll get to that.

1:32:03But also, and I think this ties into that too,

1:32:05keep in mind, as you criticize this laptop's mediocrity

1:32:08in certain areas, it's a low-end product.

1:32:11This is a value product.

1:32:13In the world of PCs, it's probably mid-range.

1:32:15- It's a low-end Mac, it's a high-end PC.

1:32:17A low-end PC laptop is 180 bucks.

1:32:20- Yeah, that's true.

1:32:21It's a mid-range PC laptop,

1:32:23but it uses those kind of mid-range parts and everything,

1:32:27and it's in a pretty small case and everything.

1:32:29Anyway, this is a value product,

1:32:31and it's competing against Apple's value products.

1:32:34And it is interesting to see the two very different ways

1:32:37that Microsoft and Apple are tackling this problem.

1:32:39Apple is largely addressing the very old,

1:32:44un-updated MacBook Air towards the same market.

1:32:46I mean, some of the people we pushed up

1:32:49into a new MacBook Pro, but I think a lot of people,

1:32:52like this is aimed at things like schools,

1:32:55businesses, college students, people who need

1:32:58either a lot of computers at the lowest possible price,

1:33:00like a school or people who are buying a computer

1:33:04who need a lot of value and can't spend a lot more.

1:33:07So things like college students, things like that.

1:33:09And the MacBook Air is on a variable for these people,

1:33:12but Apple is basically just telling them

1:33:17to just keep buying really old hardware

1:33:20and Microsoft is showing them a new option.

1:33:22And I don't think Apple really has a direct answer to this.

1:33:27I guess technically Apple's answer is spend more

1:33:30one of our new computers or tolerate one of our old ones. But I really, I think the MacBook

1:33:35Air is kind of an embarrassment right now because it's not like this is some like, you

1:33:40know, narrow little product that they don't sell many of. They sell tons of them. And

1:33:45so it makes me kind of sad for Apple that they are happy to sell so many of an ancient

1:33:55product that they have refused to update out of what seems like a combination of laziness

1:34:00and greed because they're making good money on it so why update it? That's a crappy reason,

1:34:06but that seems to be the reason they're using. And the new MacBook Pro will eventually, I

1:34:12assume, will eventually get lower in price and eventually the 12 inch and the escape

1:34:19line will replace the MacBook Air. But it doesn't seem like that's happening soon. It

1:34:23seems like that might be still maybe three years out or something like that. So for this

1:34:28this time or they're just gonna keep selling

1:34:30this ancient MacBook Air while things like this

1:34:34are coming out from the PC industry

1:34:35and kind of embarrassing it.

1:34:38I don't think I like that strategy.

1:34:39- Don't we have like five years before

1:34:41they have a special meeting to talk about the MacBook Air

1:34:43at Apple's campus that they invite us like,

1:34:45you know, say, we know we haven't updated

1:34:47the MacBook Air in four years,

1:34:49and people are wondering if we're gonna discontinue it,

1:34:51but we've just decided last week

1:34:53that we're gonna make a new MacBook Air,

1:34:55and it won't be out this year.

1:34:57but we are going to rethink the MacBook.

1:34:59We've heard you that you want the MacBook Air.

1:35:02- Yeah, right.

1:35:02- To specific Microsoft Surface thing,

1:35:05like PC laptops have been embarrassing the Air

1:35:07for a long time.

1:35:08It's not just this one.

1:35:09Like, oh, they finally made it like, like you said,

1:35:11like there's been tons of PCs

1:35:12that use the MacBook Air class of chip,

1:35:14but they actually stay updated

1:35:15of varying degrees of build quality and style.

1:35:17So maybe the Microsoft one is notable

1:35:19in that they have a good reputation

1:35:20for hardware build quality.

1:35:21And if you like the style, like that's fine.

1:35:24But yeah, I mean, that's,

1:35:26it's revealing gaps in Apple's lineup.

1:35:27Like that Apple wanted the combination of the new MacBook

1:35:31and the new MacBook Pros to span the same range

1:35:34that the old combination of the Airs plus the Pros

1:35:37plus the weird MacBook-y thing in the middle span.

1:35:40And it does kind of span the same range

1:35:42as with gaps in different places,

1:35:44but because of the way they're priced

1:35:45and the way their capabilities spread,

1:35:47it ends up being less satisfying.

1:35:49And the Air still is very popular.

1:35:52I don't know if I mentioned this about my UK trip,

1:35:54But I did a, because I was actually in a Starbucks,

1:35:57I think for the first time in my entire life,

1:36:01because my wife went in there to get a drink

1:36:04and I came in with her.

1:36:06And I did a laptop count just because I was,

1:36:10I glanced around and I was stunned at what I saw.

1:36:12What I saw was like, I think it was like eight MacBook Airs,

1:36:17one HP laptop and one MacBook Pro.

1:36:20- Yeah.

1:36:21- And I was like, "Macbook Airs, like what's going on?"

1:36:23I talked to some people in the UK and they said,

1:36:25"Oh, schools buy them a lot.

1:36:26"Like when you go to school, you get a laptop

1:36:28"and they all buy MacBook Airs."

1:36:30So like, are these people going to,

1:36:31I mean, are these all old MacBook Airs?

1:36:33They got as hand-me-downs?

1:36:34Are people going to Apple stores

1:36:35and continuing to buy MacBook Airs?

1:36:37- Yes, they are.

1:36:38- But yeah, I mean, I don't know.

1:36:40I mean, if you look at the ASPs of the,

1:36:41I was thinking of this when you say,

1:36:42oh, the MacBook Pro prices will come down.

1:36:43Like not at those ASPs they have

1:36:45because the new MacBook Pros that are all super,

1:36:47you know, more expensive than their old models,

1:36:49tremendously increased revenues

1:36:51and average selling price for Apple.

1:36:53So because I get pent up demand, right, or whatever,

1:36:55but I'm not so sure that they're gonna be

1:36:58in a big darn hurry to lower the price.

1:36:59And honestly, I'm okay with Apple jacking up the price

1:37:03on its top end models,

1:37:04as long as the top end models like justify that price,

1:37:06not linearly, obviously, where it's like,

1:37:08is this $500 better?

1:37:09No, of course it's not gonna be $500 better.

1:37:10But if anything, you're gonna fleece people on,

1:37:12make it the super duper high end ones.

1:37:15If they actually introduced a MacBook Air replacement,

1:37:19sort of a worthy MacBook Air replacement

1:37:21fills that same role, like has the same trade-offs of battery life, screen size, and ports and

1:37:26capability as the old MacBook Air but has all updated internals and has retina.

1:37:30If they ever made such a machine, that could lower their ASPs, but I think it would sell

1:37:33like hotcakes.

1:37:34And honestly, I feel like, I made the joke about the whole MacPro meeting, like, "Oh,

1:37:41we've decided we're going to do this."

1:37:42I feel like that decision is inevitable, because it seems like the range of capabilities in

1:37:48and Apple's limited range from the super duper skinny

1:37:50MacBook to the much more expensive Pros,

1:37:54that doesn't seem to be the right distribution

1:37:55of price points and capabilities to satisfy the market.

1:37:58Whereas the Air has proven itself to be,

1:38:01and not the first Air,

1:38:03'cause the first Air was a crappy mix, right?

1:38:04But like the 2011 and on Air,

1:38:07that was a really great sweet spot

1:38:10for capability, size and price.

1:38:12And I think Apple has proven with their experiment

1:38:16that the super duper skinny one,

1:38:17like it's a little bit too far down the capability ladder.

1:38:22Like it sacrifices too much capability for other stuff.

1:38:24They just, by all means, keep it.

1:38:25'Cause you should have a model

1:38:26that's like the lightest possible thing you can have.

1:38:28It's awesome for that, right?

1:38:29But it doesn't, you know, whatever the curve looks like

1:38:32of demand for laptop sizes and capabilities,

1:38:35that one is also towards the edge.

1:38:37So I think Apple will eventually come around

1:38:40to making a machine that has the balance

1:38:44of the MacBook Air.

1:38:45It doesn't have to be the same exact size

1:38:46and shape as the MacBook Air,

1:38:47things change and USB-C is smaller and so on and so forth.

1:38:50And whether that's because the MacBook evolves or they introduce a new model in the middle

1:38:55or the 13-inch MacBook Pro, as Marco has talked about so many times, eventually shrinks down

1:38:59to the point where it basically is a MacBook Air.

1:39:01But that hasn't happened yet.

1:39:04And so looking over at the PC side or the Windows side of things and seeing all these

1:39:08MacBook Air equivalents and seeing how popular, you know, again, coffee shop surveys, a lot

1:39:14of the PCs that I see are MacBook Airy-sized form factors.

1:39:17I see less of the giant battleships

1:39:19that you still see in corporate environments,

1:39:21and I see more of the HP Lenovo MacBook Airy-sized machines.

1:39:26So hopefully Apple will get on that

1:39:30in T minus two and a half years.

1:39:32- Yeah, 'cause that's the thing.

1:39:34That's what I'm saying.

1:39:35The strategy, what they seem to be doing now,

1:39:37which is basically just never update the Air

1:39:39and just keep selling it

1:39:40until the other ones come down in price,

1:39:42I don't think that necessarily works

1:39:44unless there's other changes in mind

1:39:46because like what you said, the 12 inch,

1:39:49assume that comes down in price and becomes a new entry,

1:39:51that's kinda not good enough to replace the MacBook Air.

1:39:54It is so much of a compromise in so many more areas.

1:39:58It has way fewer ports and things.

1:40:01It is way slower than the MacBook Air in a lot of things.

1:40:05It gets worse battery life by a good amount.

1:40:09It will presumably improve over time.

1:40:12Maybe the second generation 12 inch MacBook,

1:40:16whenever that comes out,

1:40:17maybe that one will be a better air replacement.

1:40:21But the current one really isn't.

1:40:23I mean, maybe the answer is that the 13 inch MacBook Escape

1:40:26ends up going down in price eventually,

1:40:30or it has a very low end configuration.

1:40:33But the problem is, the base model is already

1:40:36a pretty low end model for Apple standards.

1:40:39Compared to the service book,

1:40:41it's kinda mid-range to high-end.

1:40:43So again, I'm not entirely sure that strategy makes sense,

1:40:46but it seems like Apple is doing a pretty poor job

1:40:51addressing what is probably by far

1:40:54their most popular model of laptop.

1:40:58That seems weird to me.

1:41:00Although that being said, looking at the Surface laptop,

1:41:04if you were buying one of these things,

1:41:06which of these four colors would you get?

1:41:08'Cause I saw the video, the colors looked okay in the video,

1:41:10Now that I'm seeing this page, like, all four of these colors look hideous to me.

1:41:15They all look like cubicle walls.

1:41:18The texture is the problem, not the color.

1:41:20I think either one of the two grays, the darker gray or the lighter gray, they're fine.

1:41:25But I'm not on board with the texture thing, both because I think it'll get dirty and gross

1:41:31and it'll be harder to clean, and also because the edge treatment, like when the fabric runs

1:41:35to the edge and, you know, joins up with the metal, that's just asking for it to fray.

1:41:39The last thing I want is a frayed laptop.

1:41:41That's not an aesthetic I like.

1:41:42I can imagine people finding it attractive, right?

1:41:45But I'm not into that.

1:41:48I don't know.

1:41:49It's hard to say.

1:41:50On the configurator, the colors in the image is just microscopic.

1:41:57It's very hard to say.

1:41:58I would probably take a look at the cobalt blue, but in all likelihood end up with the

1:42:03boring platinum.

1:42:04Yeah, the colors are red.

1:42:06you're right that their website like that they I know you just made fun of their website

1:42:10for a while before but like if you have beautiful hardware like they made a really cool intro

1:42:14video I think Gruber linked to and I hope all the people did that shows like all you

1:42:18know it looked like an Apple video showing how beautiful all the parts are even on the

1:42:21inside and how they all assemble and fly together and we've seen stuff from like Apple like

1:42:25but then if you go to their website Apple the entire page would you just be like incredibly

1:42:31close up high resolution beautifully shot photographs slash renders of their hardware

1:42:35right, whereas here we're squinting at these little blurry JPEGs.

1:42:39We can't even, you know, I was trying to look for a picture to show me all the ports.

1:42:42Apple would have a shot that's like, "Your ports fill your entire screen and they're

1:42:46impossibly clean because they're probably computer renders," and here it's like, "I

1:42:50can't even get a shot where I can make out what the ports are on the side."

1:42:53The color picker changes the color on this one-inch by one-inch postage stamp.

1:42:57Like, "Microsoft, you are not selling your hardware.

1:43:00You got good-looking hardware.

1:43:02You have to show it off.

1:43:03We want to see it.

1:43:04I want to see it up close.

1:43:06Alas.

1:43:06- That's Microsoft.

1:43:09- I will say also, the MacBook escape,

1:43:11the late 2016 13 inch MacBook Pro without touch bar,

1:43:15two ports, that continues to impress me as a machine.

1:43:19And when Phil Schiller got on stage and talked about it

1:43:24during the introduction, he did say something on the lines

1:43:26of this is kind of the new MacBook Air.

1:43:29And even though it starts at $1500

1:43:32and has few reports and things,

1:43:34I think that is largely correct.

1:43:37I hope in whatever the next version

1:43:40of the MacBook escape is, presumably maybe this fall

1:43:43or next spring, whenever new MacBook Pros come out,

1:43:46I hope that they make a few changes

1:43:49that will make that more correct,

1:43:50that will make this more of a MacBook Air replacement.

1:43:53I think for me, like having used this thing now,

1:43:57I miss the SD card slot.

1:43:59I will not accept any argument that that's the past

1:44:02because it simply is not true.

1:44:03You can argue with me all you want about legacy ports,

1:44:06but the SD card is not a legacy port.

1:44:09It is something else,

1:44:10and it is still necessary for lots of people.

1:44:12- Oh, I could not disagree with you more.

1:44:14- Cool, so I would say bring back the SD card reader,

1:44:19and I would also really like one more USB port.

1:44:24I don't care whether it's C or A.

1:44:27Most of the computers, like in this class before,

1:44:30you've been able to have them plugged in

1:44:33and you've been able to plug in two devices to them.

1:44:35And you can't do that with this,

1:44:36without using hubs and stuff.

1:44:38And every USB-C hub that's out there in the world right now

1:44:40is a total piece of garbage.

1:44:42And the MacBook One has been out for, what, two years now?

1:44:45- Something like that.

1:44:46- And they're still all garbage.

1:44:47This is similar, it's a similar problem

1:44:49of a lot of hubs and things like hubs that eventually,

1:44:53I mean, it took me something like three years

1:44:56to find a decent USB 3 hub that didn't disconnect constantly

1:44:59and cause problems, every USB-C hub out there

1:45:03is a total piece of garbage.

1:45:05And the fact is, what if I don't wanna buy a USB-C hub?

1:45:08Or what if I don't wanna buy Apple's $75 thing

1:45:12or whatever it is?

1:45:13That's just more additional cost for people

1:45:16who are buying this thing to do something fairly basic.

1:45:18I really would love one additional USB port

1:45:21and an SD card reader.

1:45:22And if that happens to come with them,

1:45:25Also maybe dropping the price by a couple hundred bucks

1:45:27on the entry point so that it makes it more

1:45:30MacBook Air range, I think that would help a lot.

1:45:32- And then make it a little bit thinner

1:45:34and you've got a random MacBook Air.

1:45:35- No, it doesn't need to be thinner.

1:45:36It's already thinner than the MacBook Air.

1:45:38Like it is, it is like physically in so many ways,

1:45:42it's great, like it really is really nice.

1:45:44- It's not thinner than the MacBook Air in all dimensions.

1:45:47Like it doesn't do the taper, which again,

1:45:48I say it's a great idea for not doing the taper

1:45:50'cause you can get tons more battery life.

1:45:52But it doesn't change the fact of how it feels

1:45:54in your hand and how it fits into your backpack or whatever.

1:45:57The taper was there for a reason,

1:45:59for a perception reason,

1:46:01and that perception is a real thing.

1:46:03- No, I'm telling you, I disagree very strongly

1:46:05on the physical side.

1:46:06To me, physically, this is a MacBook Air.

1:46:07This is, it is exactly the right size

1:46:11and feels exactly the right in the hand.

1:46:14- You may feel like it's the right size,

1:46:15but it feels chunkier than the Air.

1:46:17- I disagree.

1:46:19- I can just go get an Air and just,

1:46:20it just does, 'cause it doesn't have the thin end.

1:46:22That's the perception angle that I'm talking about.

1:46:24Like I'm not saying the thin end is the right choice

1:46:26'cause I think the right choice is for right now

1:46:28for it to be thicker.

1:46:28But you're saying like in the future eventually,

1:46:30like I said, the question is,

1:46:32does the fanless MacBook expand its capabilities

1:46:35to fill in the role of the Air

1:46:38or does the 13 inch MacBook Pro slim down essentially

1:46:43to come to the MacBook and lower its price

1:46:46to come to the MacBook Air from above?

1:46:48And I agree that it's probably more likely

1:46:50that eventually the 13 inch MacBook Pro,

1:46:52if not in price, in all other ways, will fill that same role.

1:46:56But I disagree that right now that form factor-wise,

1:46:59that it feels the same.

1:47:00Because it just doesn't.

1:47:01We have them at work and we pick them up

1:47:03and it's just not like that.

1:47:05Actually, we don't have them at work.

1:47:06The important people who have their own machines

1:47:08at work have them at work.

1:47:09Sorry. (laughing)

1:47:10So excited.

1:47:11Like, did work give that to you?

1:47:12No, this is my personal machine.

1:47:13Oh, nevermind.

1:47:14- Do we want to, we are running long,

1:47:16but do we want to talk about the Windows 10 S

1:47:20or whatever it's called?

1:47:22I mean, we can--

1:47:23I think this is a quick one.

1:47:24So Windows 10 S is the cut down in terms

1:47:27of pricing version of Windows that you

1:47:29can get with these laptops that wants

1:47:31you to get all of the applications

1:47:32from Microsoft's version of the App Store.

1:47:35And it's a model we're all familiar with.

1:47:37Microsoft has been pushing real hard on the App Store model.

1:47:39Thus far, they have not been as successful as Apple,

1:47:41but in theory, it brings all the same benefits

1:47:43of a controlled selection of software

1:47:45that's approved by Microsoft that conforms to--

1:47:48presumably better conforms to the ideals

1:47:50that Microsoft wants it to conform to

1:47:52and that Microsoft gets control of how the money flows

1:47:56and yada, yada, yada.

1:47:58The interesting thing about Microsoft 10S

1:48:00is that if you want to get applications

1:48:03from someplace other than the Microsoft App Store,

1:48:06or I don't know what they call it, I keep saying App Store,

1:48:08you can pay them an additional 50 bucks

1:48:09and now you can load programs from anywhere,

1:48:12which is probably making longtime PC Windows people

1:48:16freak out because this is like a lockdown PC

1:48:20that I have to pay money to put stuff on, that's terrible.

1:48:23Don't worry guys, you'll be able to hack it.

1:48:24All that stuff is cracked.

1:48:25Anyway, it's an interesting business model,

1:48:30trying to have your cake and eat it too,

1:48:32where it's like, we wanna give people the capability

1:48:35of using it as a regular PC,

1:48:38but we actually wanna discourage that.

1:48:39So we can discourage it.

1:48:40And by the way, we can make our cheap models cheaper

1:48:43by, you know, presumably Microsoft is reducing

1:48:45whatever its license fee is by saying,

1:48:47If you use Windows 10 S, you PC manufacturer

1:48:51won't have to pay us quite as much for the Windows license

1:48:54because we hope we're gonna make some more

1:48:55by selling apps through our store.

1:48:58But as Gruber pointed out,

1:49:01this is kind of a weird pitch for people

1:49:03that like you have to pay money to,

1:49:07are you paying money to make your thing better?

1:49:09Or are you paying, or is it just there as a deterrent

1:49:12to try to encourage people to use the App Store?

1:49:14And the Microsoft App Store is pretty grim

1:49:16and doesn't have the apps that you want in it,

1:49:17so does everybody just have to pay that fee?

1:49:20I don't know, like many things they do in the Microsoft,

1:49:22the modern Microsoft service world,

1:49:23it's like, I don't know, let's try this.

1:49:26And they don't have too much to lose,

1:49:28it's not like the Microsoft App Store

1:49:30is setting the world ablaze, so.

1:49:33If this is what it takes to encourage more people

1:49:35to get into the Microsoft App Store,

1:49:37to say, if they sell a lot of these,

1:49:39and they can say, hey, look at all these customers,

1:49:40the only place they can buy stores

1:49:42is through the Microsoft Store,

1:49:43that's why you, software developer,

1:49:44should put your stuff in the Microsoft store,

1:49:46but good luck getting the big names in there.

1:49:49The same reason Apple couldn't get them in,

1:49:51Microsoft's gonna have trouble getting them in the store,

1:49:53and then it just ends up being as a weird free version

1:49:55of Windows that you can pay $50 to unlock,

1:49:57and presumably to remove all the weird ads

1:49:58that are apparently in Windows these days.

1:50:01- Yeah, this whole thing is kind of a weird

1:50:03segmentation thing, I mean it is obviously

1:50:06this effort to create a low-end Windows,

1:50:08but Windows RT was kind of a more severe version of that,

1:50:12and that didn't do so well.

1:50:14I really don't see Microsoft customers

1:50:19being a big fan of this.

1:50:21- Yeah, it doesn't seem like the thing

1:50:22that deserves a $50 charge.

1:50:24It seems to me to be like the gatekeeper switch

1:50:27in Mac OS where you just kind of say,

1:50:31yes, I understand the risks, I'm good with it,

1:50:32just let me side load whatever I want.

1:50:35- Yeah, that was a groupish analogy too

1:50:37and it's like, it doesn't feel good to,

1:50:39it feels like a ransom.

1:50:40It's like, unlock the full capability you perceive

1:50:42but that's just from our perspective

1:50:44because we're like, oh, we just expect to be able

1:50:45to load any software we want on our PCs.

1:50:47And of course, from our perspective

1:50:49in the walled garden of Apple,

1:50:51it's like we would gladly pay 50 bucks

1:50:53to be able to sideload arbitrary applications

1:50:55onto our iPhones, or at least that was,

1:50:57I think all the geeks would have agreed

1:50:58on that many years ago.

1:50:59These days, people make less of a fuss about that.

1:51:01But I think it still exists for all sorts of applications

1:51:04that Apple doesn't allow on the App Store

1:51:05that potentially be useful, so on and so forth.

1:51:07But trying to bring that to the Windows world,

1:51:11I don't know what kind of demand is there for that.

1:51:14and I'm not sure how much power Microsoft has

1:51:17even within its own ecosystem to make that happen.

1:51:20Apple obviously took the easy way out and said,

1:51:23"We're introducing a new platform.

1:51:24This is how it is from day one."

1:51:25Right, so then it's like, it is what it is.

1:51:27And guess what?

1:51:28That platform was wildly successful,

1:51:29so they made it happen.

1:51:30But trying to retroactively apply that

1:51:33to a platform that was previously opened,

1:51:35Apple and it's on its own little private world of the Mac

1:51:38has had much difficulty doing that, you know,

1:51:41with Mac App Store and sandboxing

1:51:43and major applications that were either never in the store,

1:51:45Mac App Store, or left the Mac App Store.

1:51:48And I think Microsoft's gonna have an even harder time

1:51:50but I think mainly, the main innovation here seems to me

1:51:54as a way that Microsoft can allow even cheaper

1:51:59Windows-based computers while still hopefully not losing

1:52:03that much money on them, like giving Windows licenses,

1:52:07lowering the price of Windows licenses

1:52:09for computers that are incredibly cheap

1:52:11and hoping they're gonna make it up

1:52:12with App Store purchase.

1:52:13I don't think the math will work out for them,

1:52:15but it's an interesting strategy.

1:52:17And from a user's perspective,

1:52:19I think Windows users are just used to, by now,

1:52:22the business model of Windows

1:52:24and how many different versions there are

1:52:25and how much they cost and what you really have to pay

1:52:27and what they're capable of doing, being a confusing mess.

1:52:29And so, you know, this is par for the course.

1:52:32- Thanks a lot to our sponsors this week,

1:52:35Casper, Betterment, and Indochino,

1:52:37and we will see you next week.

1:52:39(upbeat music)

1:52:42Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin

1:52:46'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

1:52:49Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

1:52:52John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

1:52:57'Cause it was accidental (accidental)

1:53:00Oh, it was accidental (accidental)

1:53:03And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

1:53:08And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

1:53:12@C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

1:53:17So that's Kasey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

1:53:21Anti-Marco Arment

1:53:23S-I-R-A-C

1:53:26U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

1:53:29It's accidental

1:53:32They didn't mean to

1:53:34Accidental

1:53:37Tech podcast so long

1:53:42I have some thoughts about the Switch.

1:53:44Oh?

1:53:45It's okay, it'll be fairly quick.

1:53:47This week, or really last week, Mario Kart 8 Deluxe came out.

1:53:52This is the first Mario Kart that I have played since Mario Kart for the Wii.

1:53:56And it came out on Friday, I got my copy on Friday.

1:54:01On Monday, I had already arranged with a few coworkers at work who also have switches.

1:54:07We were all going to bring our consoles in and our copies of Mario Kart in play over lunch.

1:54:13And so there were six of us gathered around a kind of a bar, if you will, at work,

1:54:20playing local multiplayer against each other and with each other on Mario Kart 8.

1:54:27And it was unbelievably fun and cool and a miracle that HR didn't come down and yell at us for the language that we were all using as we were hollering at each other to effectively go die in a fire, but with much more colorful words than that.

1:54:45It was unbelievably fun, just like Apple.

1:54:48Well, not like Apple used to be, anyway.

1:54:50It just worked, and it was great.

1:54:53And I had just an unbelievable amount of fun

1:54:57in a way that I haven't since I did, like,

1:55:00LAN parties when I was in high school or college,

1:55:03or no modem cable parties when I was a grade schooler.

1:55:07And this is the first console that I am aware of

1:55:12where that sort of thing can happen in person

1:55:14really, really easily and without six associated TVs as well.

1:55:20I just thought it was extremely cool.

1:55:21Yes, well actually, yes, I'm aware that the original Game Boy had like four-player games

1:55:26and things like that, but you know what I mean.

1:55:29Where six people show up with no cables whatsoever and just start playing a game together.

1:55:34It was awesome and tremendously fun.

1:55:37And if you happen to know a couple of people, or even better, a handful of people who all

1:55:42have switches and all have Mario Kart or maybe an equivalent game. I cannot recommend it

1:55:47enough. It is so much fun. Have you done any of this yet, Jon?

1:55:50I looked for you online at Mario Kart this weekend, but you weren't around. I've played

1:55:55all these tracks and done all these things already, but I played it to just see the new

1:55:59frame rate and the high-res graphics and the new features of the game.

1:56:03What game was it again?

1:56:04Mario Kart 8.

1:56:05Oh. What was it again?

1:56:07Are you trying to get me to say Mario over and over again so you can soundboard me?

1:56:13Still Mario Kart 8.

1:56:14Deluxe!

1:56:15Mario Kart 8 Deluxe.

1:56:17Indeed.

1:56:18But yeah, and to try out the new, the few new features they added with the double item

1:56:22boxes and the pink sparks and the dreaded auto steer thing which you must disable because

1:56:27it's terrible.

1:56:28Well, it's terrible for me, it is good for the people who it's intended for.

1:56:32I would have loved to have, speaking of the auto drive thing, it's not auto drive, it's

1:56:37It's preventing you from going off the edge of the map.

1:56:40And I used to try to play Mario Kart with my kids, probably before they were quite old

1:56:44enough to be able to do it, and it was very frustrating for them because they couldn't

1:56:47stay on the course, right?

1:56:50I think they would have had more fun with this version, which has auto-accelerate so

1:56:53you don't have to hold down A, and also they can drive all over the course however they

1:56:57want, they just can't go off the edge.

1:56:59It's as if there are guardrails on the entire track, and that would have really helped them

1:57:04be guided along.

1:57:05But if you are an experienced Mario Kart player, you don't want this feature on because if

1:57:10you barely get close to or touch the edge and you weren't going to go off the edge but

1:57:15you just happen to touch it, it slows you down tremendously.

1:57:17It's like sandpaper.

1:57:19So I would encourage everyone to turn this feature off if you're going for good lap times

1:57:23or trying to compete in 200cc or whatever.

1:57:26You can't turn it off from the main interface, you have to actually start the race and then

1:57:29once the race has started, go to the options screen and then you can turn it off and I'm

1:57:32I'm pretty sure that setting persists between launches of the game once you have turned

1:57:36it off.

1:57:37Now, the thing though with this is that it's very different than playing online against

1:57:41each other because, you know, when you're playing online against each other, you can't

1:57:45unless you have like a phone line open, you can't really yell and scream at each other

1:57:48like you can when you're face to face.

1:57:51And you can't see, you know, the people who are steering their switches even though they're

1:57:55not using tilt controls, they're steering their switches like steering wheels because

1:57:58they can't help themselves.

1:58:01You can't see the just delightfully taste, just delicious frustration when you nail the

1:58:08person in first place with a blue shell.

1:58:10You can't see all that online.

1:58:13And so, although the online play is also very good and also generally just works, it is

1:58:18just magnificent to have a big group all in person.

1:58:20So if we do a podcast or Family New Year's again this year, I will pretty much demand

1:58:28everyone bring their Switches and Mario Kart because it is extremely fun.

1:58:31Also, I noticed very deep within Nintendo's Mario Kart site, and I will not put a link

1:58:36in the show notes because I will forget and I'm too lazy to find it, you can actually

1:58:39play 12-player local Mario Kart over Ethernet only, which I didn't even realize was the

1:58:46thing.

1:58:47So you would have to get—

1:58:48>>Steve - It has an Ethernet port?

1:58:49>>Paul - No, that's the thing.

1:58:50You would have to get 12 USB to Ethernet adapters and a router and 12 TVs because you have to

1:58:55be docked to do it, but you could play 12-player Mario Kart in a LAN party scenario.

1:59:00That sounds like an incredibly ridiculous amount of setup, but that sounds awesome.

1:59:05How fun would that be though?

1:59:07That would be so much fun.

1:59:09But to go back a sec, Jon, you were saying you were looking for me over the weekend and didn't see me.

1:59:14What are the complaints I do have about the online setup with the Switch? And maybe it's user ignorance,

1:59:21so maybe I'm dead wrong about this, but I don't see any way where you can like

1:59:26notify somebody else, "I would like to play this game with you." You can say in Mario Kart that you're looking for a friend

1:59:33that's online, and you can start a room that's intended, or I guess maybe the only two people that can

1:59:38that can go into that room or say me and you, but

1:59:41there is no mechanism that I'm aware of where you can like ping or notify a person.

1:59:48So let's say I'm playing Mario Kart.

1:59:50I'm actively playing Mario Kart, and John starts up his Switch and sees me online and says, "Oh, I'd like to play Casey."

1:59:56I don't think I am ever notified that you are asking to play with me,

2:00:01which is a real bummer, because then you have to like go to some other device to

2:00:05orchestrate the thing and then back to the switch to actually play. And I feel like that's a real shortfall, which really bummed me out.

2:00:13But other than that, it's worked really well. Now that being said,

2:00:16yesterday we also did a group game, this time with seven players.

2:00:23And I don't know if it was because it was over lunch and we were standing relatively close to

2:00:26microwaves, which is the same story it was on Monday.

2:00:29But either way, the local LAN was not working well at all, and the online

2:00:35multiplayer actually worked pretty much flawlessly. So even though we were all sitting within at most, you know, ten feet of each other,

2:00:42and even when we moved away from the microwaves, it still just didn't work for beans for some reason.

2:00:48But once we all went online, it actually worked great.

2:00:52So much fun to have it in person and one of the things that appealed to me about the switch which I think I've mentioned

2:00:56You know last week or the week before

2:00:58Was this was that intro video where they showed like all the switches all in a circle and they were all playing like basketball or maybe?

2:01:04Splatoon or something like that against each other and I thought man that looks so much like so much fun

2:01:09And you know what? Oh my goodness. It's so much fun

2:01:11So John you really need to try that out or you know

2:01:15If one of your kids if their friends all have switches and they they do a slumber party or something

2:01:20You should just be that creepy old dad that invites himself to play along because it is super duper fun

2:01:25Yeah

2:01:27Ergonomic issues though with using the switch handheld which I have tried a few times with so many people raving about it

2:01:32But that's just for me personally

2:01:33It's I I always prefer to have a doctor and use a controller and sit on the couch and look at the big TV

2:01:37And unlike with the Wii U where I actually thought I did a little bit better with you playing on the gamepad

2:01:44Maybe because of lag or whatever like the Wii U gamepad is way better for me ergonomically

2:01:50than the little tiny switch. It's just too small and too, you know, I do worse when I race with it in that way than I do on the TV.

2:01:57So I've been playing Mario Kart mostly on the TV and if I had to do like a Land Party type thing,

2:02:02it's nice that we could all be in person and do the things, but I

2:02:05would prefer to be in a scenario where, the ridiculous scenario where there are 12 televisions and ethernet things because that's the way I prefer to

2:02:12play the game.

2:02:13I mean, I suppose you could still have fun playing it, playing it

2:02:16not at peak level with me trying to play at the hand handheld thing and doing terribly badly, but

2:02:22Yeah, and going back to it. I was surprised that I thought like oh, I haven't played America at eight and so long

2:02:28I'm gonna fire this game up and I'm just gonna see how awful I am

2:02:31but I still had it like I went directly to 200 CC which I had unlocked in the Wii U version already and

2:02:37I just pulled up a bunch of courses and I was doing pretty well like plus or minus the insanity of

2:02:42rubber banding and item

2:02:45Embarnment that you get a 200cc with the incredible cheating computer players. I did okay

2:02:52Except for a couple of the tracks that were in like I guess they were in the most recent

2:02:56DLC that it only done a little bit and realize I just don't know those courses

2:02:58But I tend not to like the SNES tracks anyway

2:03:00Monster I mean like they were good in SNES, but I you know I

2:03:06Prefer the other tracks that are more dynamic that are you know ports from like GameCube and the the maricade 8 ones

2:03:13Directly, so I had fun

2:03:15I don't know if I'm gonna go through and like three star everything like I did on the Wii U one because I find that incredibly

2:03:19Frustrating at the upper levels because three starring at 200 CC will literally drive you mad

2:03:24If you have if you do not have much better skills than I do because I can do it

2:03:29But it takes me a long time and it's incredibly frustrating to have to three star because that doesn't mean just that you

2:03:35Come in first at the end of the thing

2:03:36That means you basically come in first in every race except for one like this

2:03:39There's very little more or maybe it's all of them

2:03:41There's very little margin of error and in 200cc in a world of Mario Kart

2:03:45It seems to me that almost no amount of driving skill

2:03:49Can protect you from an unfortunate series of events that leads you to after an entire Grand Prix

2:03:55Getting blown up 10 feet from the finish line and watching one person zip by you and then oh, sorry, you didn't get three stars

2:04:01It's a rough world out there America. I go I go I went back to Zelda to relax. I played a bunch of America

2:04:07I'm like I need to wind down I need to relax

2:04:09Zelda where I've already beaten the game

2:04:11I'm just like

2:04:12You know doing the fun side quests and furnishing my home and doing all sorts of exciting things and that was that was much better

2:04:19you know, it's funny you bring up Zelda again because I

2:04:22Found that since I've gotten a Mario Kart 8 deluxe

2:04:27I am far less less likely to play Zelda not because I don't enjoy it just as much not because it's not

2:04:34by pretty much any measure a better game, but because with Mario Kart I can pick it up for like a

2:04:393-minute or 10-minute, you know round and just kind of play for a few minutes put it back down

2:04:44Whereas for me anyway with Zelda I have to be like

2:04:48Concentrating and paying attention and thinking about things and and I understand that I'm a noob and maybe other people like you John that have

2:04:54Played Zelda for forever in a day don't have to concentrate as much but for me

2:04:58It's a much more deliberate act and so I found myself playing a lot more Mario Kart than Zelda since Friday

2:05:03a even though in many ways I enjoy Zelda more and in many ways I do think it is more relaxing

2:05:10or at least a slower pace if nothing else.

2:05:12I think that Zelda is one of the games that is the easiest to pick up and do something,

2:05:17one of the easiest Zelda's perhaps ever to have a tiny short gaming session because you'll

2:05:21pick up and like there are so many things that you can choose to do within two or three

2:05:27minutes you don't have to go and do a shrine or advance the story you can just pick a point

2:05:34on the map and you know fast travel there or like pick a point close by and just go

2:05:39to it and along the way you will find enemies to defeat new things especially if you haven't

2:05:44opened up the entire map yet and you're just exploring interesting things to see just look

2:05:48and say I wonder what's over there and go over there and when you get there you find

2:05:51out what's over there it's an interesting thing and you're done like I've when I was

2:05:56super-duper into playing Zelda, like when I was only like 10 or 20 hours in, it was,

2:06:01you know, normally we just play games on weekends, but I was at the point where,

2:06:03you know, after dinner on weekdays, I was like, "Let me just get in five or 10 minutes of Zelda,"

2:06:09because there was always something to do. So you should, like, maybe if you're going into it and

2:06:15saying, "I need to advance the story. I need to get closer to finishing the game," that there is

2:06:19some sort of like, "Oh, where was I in my project, my project of finishing this game?"

2:06:22- That's exactly what I run into is I lose my context

2:06:27and then it takes me like 10 minutes

2:06:28just to remember where I was.

2:06:30And a lot of that is just because I have a terrible memory

2:06:33and I forget, but I think you're right.

2:06:36If I don't worry about what I was actively

2:06:40in the midst of working on,

2:06:41it probably would be a lot more approachable.

2:06:44- Yeah, like save that for the longer sessions

2:06:45and for the shorter ones,

2:06:46like just gather up some food and cook it

2:06:49or go beat up some bad guys and take their stuff,

2:06:53or see what's over on the other side of that hill, right?

2:06:55And then only if you're gonna have a longer gaming session,

2:06:58say, okay, now how am I gonna progress?

2:07:00What area of the map am I going to open up and conquer next?

2:07:04What story thing am I gonna go on?

2:07:06Am I going to pick a side quest for my adventure log

2:07:08and do that one side quest?

2:07:09That's for the longer sessions.

2:07:11- Marco, you still haven't really played the Switch at all?

2:07:13Are you still with us?

2:07:14- Yeah, I bought Mario Kart,

2:07:16I think yesterday, the day before,

2:07:19but I haven't been able to play it yet on my Switch

2:07:21because I was told by Tiff

2:07:23that I couldn't play with her Switch.

2:07:24And I suggested maybe I should bring it to WWDC.

2:07:29- You absolutely should, but she'll kill you.

2:07:32- And then we could all play on our Switches,

2:07:35but then I was also informed,

2:07:36what would she do that week without her Switch?

2:07:39- And also, I would never bring mine.

2:07:42- Why?

2:07:43- Are you afraid of scratching the screen

2:07:44that you'd never look at?

2:07:45- No, it's not a portable device for me.

2:07:47I'm not gonna bring it.

2:07:47Do I need more?

2:07:48bring it I don't even bring laptops anymore I just bring my iPad and travel

2:07:51light I would it would take a lot for me to to bring the switch because then you

2:07:55have to bring all the stuff you know at the very least the charging cable and I

2:07:59would want to bring the pro controller and then it's like I would never play

2:08:01yeah I don't bring all the stuff I just bring the switch and I use the cable for

2:08:04my MacBook Pro to charge it if I need to right exactly and it's actually I'm glad

2:08:08you brought all this up that brought all this back up because when you had said

2:08:12you know you only want to play it against the TV and you don't like it in

2:08:14handheld mode blah blah blah that's totally fair totally reasonable for what

2:08:18it's worth, when we were set up at work, a handful of people did bring their pro controllers,

2:08:23but what I did, for example, is I—because I didn't have a pro controller until about

2:08:27four hours ago—I put it in kickstand, you know, I put the kickstand up and then popped

2:08:32out the joycons, and in my case I slid them into the little sheath, I don't know what

2:08:36the term is for that, the holster-y thing, so it was kind of like a poor man's pro controller.

2:08:42But what a couple people did was just hold their joycons, they just held them, you know,

2:08:46with their sides or whatever.

2:08:47I tried playing like that too to see how it was and I think that was better than holding

2:08:51the whole thing up, but then I had the problem of what to do with the screen. If you have a table,

2:08:55then you can use a little kickstand, but if you're trying to do it on your lap, then you have some

2:08:59problems. It's still not for me. And same thing with Zelda. I also tried playing Zelda and all

2:09:04these arrangements, hand help with the joy cons on, hand help with the joy cons off on a table.

2:09:08And it's just like TV wins for me. I have two pro controllers now. I'm committed to the pro

2:09:13controller lifestyle. Fair enough. And I mean, again, I'm not at all trying to

2:09:17argue. All I'm saying is that I think for a friendly and

2:09:23lightly competitive match at WWDC, I really think you'd be fine with just

2:09:27having the Joy-Cons in your hands, perhaps without the

2:09:30holstery thing. And presumably we'd all be around a table or something like that

2:09:35and just playing in that way. Although I will say,

2:09:38that would be a pretty fun way to pass the time while we're waiting

2:09:42both outside and inside whatever the convention center is called, Moscone for the sake of discussion.

2:09:47That would be a pretty good way to deal with just sitting there for hours. Just saying.