208: Your Face Is Your Face

0:00:00that is going to make an awesome after show.

0:00:01It's not really because it's going to be just a white dude

0:00:04thinking and moaning about his expensive car.

0:00:07It's going to be a terrible after show.

0:00:08And we're going to keep it in and people are going to like it.

0:00:10And the one or two people that don't like it have long since stopped listening.

0:00:13Fair enough.

0:00:15All right, so people have suggested that this phantom

0:00:22version of the Mac, which includes an ARM coprocessor, if you will,

0:00:28Maybe that's used for Power Nap. I still am skeptical that would be a reasonable use case, but be that as it may,

0:00:32um,

0:00:34the—people have used an example of apparently there's something in the PlayStation 4,

0:00:38which apparently is a console that people apparently play video games with. I didn't realize that was still a thing.

0:00:43But anyway, it has a rest mode that I guess works similarly, right, Jon?

0:00:46Yeah, so this—the last show we were talking about, the ARM CPU

0:00:51actually being able to function and do useful work when the Intel CPU is off,

0:00:57which would mean that the ARM CPU would need access to all the same stuff,

0:01:00you know, all the I/O and networking and all the other stuff,

0:01:05regardless of what software it runs, whether it runs just, you know, a bunch of Apple software

0:01:08that Apple supplies as part of the OS or whether third parties can ship ARM compiled binaries to it,

0:01:13that it would be a full-fledged CPU able to do useful work.

0:01:17And I was saying how that is pretty complicated if the only benefit you're getting out of it is

0:01:24we can do power nap on the arm CPU instead of the Intel CPU.

0:01:27And it remains to be seen if the next item involved we have some more suggestions of

0:01:33things this thing could do to justify that complexity, but the PS4 is actually an example

0:01:37of this actual thing in practice because the PS4 is an x86 CPU and when you put it into rest mode

0:01:46it's basically like the thing is turned off, the fans are off and everything, like it doesn't make

0:01:50make any noise, it just sits there, but it's not completely off off. And what it does in

0:01:55this mode is it will like download, update giant updates to your games, it will charge

0:01:59your controllers, it will do other sort of background tasks that don't require it to

0:02:05be on, but still mean that it's doing useful work. It will do, obviously with downloading,

0:02:09is using stuff over the network. And in that rest mode, it's, according to this feedback

0:02:15we've gotten, which I'm perfectly willing to believe, although I haven't looked into

0:02:18it extensively. It's not using the Intel CPU, it is using a separate ARM chip just to do this stuff.

0:02:25And that's an example of an x86 and an ARM CPU in a box and when the the x86 CPU is turned off,

0:02:33the ARM CPU is able to do all that stuff. It's able to do, you know, manipulate stuff on the

0:02:38hard drive, it's able to use networking, it's able to do all the, you know, the things and

0:02:42That is an additional complexity that is worth it for the PS4, because it is fixing all the sins of the PS3.

0:02:49Every time you wanted to turn the thing on and play a game, you had to download 50 updates,

0:02:53and it's like, "Why didn't you do that for the 12 hours I wasn't home, PS3?"

0:02:56It wouldn't even charge your controllers when it was turned off the PS3.

0:02:59You plug them in, you know, you're like, "Oh, I'm done playing the game, I'll plug in..."

0:03:02Like, it's the worst. So the PS4 fixes all this, and so it's an obvious win on the console.

0:03:08And it's, you know, it's down to the instruction set exactly what they were talking about for this rumored Apple laptop.

0:03:15The question remains, is that additional complexity, and I'm sure it's additional complexity, worthwhile for a Mac?

0:03:21And so we had one other suggestion for something that the ARM CPU could do that is useful,

0:03:28that doesn't require third-party developers to make extensions with ARM code compiled to it and ship it off there and do all sorts of stuff like that.

0:03:36David Boroditsky suggested good old photos and face recognition. You know like when you first

0:03:42get your Mac or at any point like wandering over your photos finding all the faces and doing the

0:03:47image recognition now nowadays like figuring out everything that's a house or whatever so you can

0:03:51do searches later that would be a perfect thing to do when your Mac is in rest mode or asleep or

0:03:57whatever and it would require maybe networking access depending on how much cloud stuff they

0:04:02they do for the image recognition,

0:04:03but certainly would require disk access.

0:04:05Is that worth the added complexity of making a Mac

0:04:09that can run either on an x86 CPU or on an ARM CPU,

0:04:13depending on what mode it's in?

0:04:14Maybe?

0:04:16- First of all, the photo recognition thing,

0:04:19I hope they fix that in this fall's software updates.

0:04:23Make that sync already.

0:04:24Everything else about photos syncs.

0:04:27The fact that every device has to do that

0:04:29is not only a terrible hack with awkward results sometimes,

0:04:32but it just destroys the battery life and performance

0:04:37of computers and iOS devices for the first three days

0:04:42that you get them, and that's just a bad initial

0:04:44user experience for everybody.

0:04:46- But somebody's gotta do it.

0:04:48I know people might have multiple devices,

0:04:49but one of the devices has to do it,

0:04:51and that device is the victim no matter,

0:04:54it's great that it'll be shared,

0:04:56but I would imagine for a lot of people,

0:04:58the phone would be the victim, because that's where they take the pictures, and who knows

0:05:01if people even have photos syncing on their mind. I feel bad that any device has to be

0:05:07subject to this. I mean, they could change the policy by saying, "We won't do image recognition

0:05:16unless nobody's using the device and it's plugged in." Like, basically, only do it when

0:05:21you're sleeping and it's plugged in.

0:05:22- Well, they already attempt to do that.

0:05:25Like, it does stop when you are unplugged

0:05:28on the laptops most of the time.

0:05:31However, it takes forever to the point where, like,

0:05:35you never know when you plug it in,

0:05:36like, is it best to spin the fan up?

0:05:38And then when you unplug it,

0:05:39like, how long will it take before it pauses?

0:05:41It uses the discrete GPU,

0:05:42which exacerbates any kind of GPU sticking on bugs.

0:05:45It's just kind of a mess.

0:05:47On iOS, it's even worse,

0:05:48'cause then, like, your phone gets really hot

0:05:49for, like, the first while that you have it,

0:05:51and you're like, "Why is my phone so hot?

0:05:52something wrong with it, is it gonna catch fire?

0:05:54It's just really inelegant and really sets up

0:05:58very bad user experiences for anybody who's setting up

0:06:01an iOS or Mac device that isn't their first one ever.

0:06:04And that's, they really, really need to address that

0:06:07in this year's updates, like that cannot wait.

0:06:09- Yeah, so I'm not sure it would be better if instead

0:06:15it did it while it was asleep, 'cause obviously

0:06:18it will take way longer to do it while it's asleep.

0:06:20really only Apple knows for sure but like what are the usage patterns for

0:06:26devices that are plugged in not iOS devices because they're they're never

0:06:30asleep awake like when the screens off basically that's a you know asleep like

0:06:34when they're plugged in overnight and charging that's when they should be

0:06:37doing their photo stuff if that's the only device but for Macs I don't know

0:06:41what the defaults are but I imagine if you walk away from your Mac it'll be on

0:06:45for some period of time and then I think the default is to go to sleep after like

0:06:49not that long of a time.

0:06:51And if you can't do any photo recognition stuff

0:06:54in the background in sleep mode normally,

0:06:57like if Power Nap doesn't do any of it now,

0:06:59that's all a waste of time.

0:07:01So the only time your Mac has to do photos

0:07:03is when it's unattended,

0:07:05is like the one hour between when you stop using it

0:07:07and when it goes to sleep

0:07:08according to the default energy saver settings or whatever.

0:07:11Whereas it could have had 12 hours

0:07:12just plinking away with this little ARM CPU.

0:07:14So maybe that would help a little bit,

0:07:15but again, I have to, you know,

0:07:17complexity of having a second full-fledged CPU with access to all the same things as the Intel CPU

0:07:21is significant. And I'm still, so far I'm still on the page that it's much smarter to use that CPU

0:07:29for auxiliary functions that have to do with the hardware, like I said last time, a proximity

0:07:35sensor, camera, microphone, you know, sort of like a glorified M1 or M7, what was that, the original

0:07:43motion detecting step counting thing on the iPhone.

0:07:46- Was it the M8?

0:07:47- No, we're getting to be a BMW on the brain.

0:07:51M7, M7.

0:07:52- There you go.

0:07:53- It's the 1M because the M1 was a totally different car.

0:07:55Anyway, yeah.

0:07:56Yeah, just having dedicated hardware,

0:08:00her functions related to the hardware.

0:08:02And that's perfect for a little CPU.

0:08:05And again, the only reason we're talking about this at all

0:08:07is it's already there to run the touch bar.

0:08:09It's like, it's already there.

0:08:10And so you're just saying,

0:08:11how can I get more bang for my buck

0:08:12from this thing that I already have to put in?

0:08:13It's not like we're looking to throw a bunch of new chips into the thing.

0:08:16It's already in these laptops, so I believe that a next version or a version after that

0:08:24of this, they'll find new things to do with the chip they should, because they're paying

0:08:27for the chip and it's there, and when it's not doing anything fancy on the screen, give

0:08:31it something else to do.

0:08:33They have good ARM chips and they have a good OS to run on them, so why waste it?

0:08:39Speaking of face recognition, Windows Hello, whatever that may be, does some really weird

0:08:44and fancy stuff with their face recognition.

0:08:46Yeah, I made a joke about face recognition not being good for security because someone

0:08:51just prints out a picture of your face and holds it up and then they unlock your laptop.

0:08:55Didn't specifically say that that was a vulnerability of Windows Hello because they didn't know

0:08:59much about it, but many people wrote in to say that Windows Hello actually uses depth

0:09:03maps so that you can't just hold up a picture because it wants something that not only looks

0:09:07like your face but is contoured and shaped like your face. So people would have to make

0:09:12a basically a mannequin of your face instead of just a picture, which is harder. And then

0:09:18the faces versus fingerprints thing, because a lot of people bring up like, well, it's

0:09:22just like fingerprints, like people can lift your fingerprints pretty easily. I feel like

0:09:26it's still the apt comparison is local versus remote exploit. Local exploits, like there's

0:09:31a million of them, basically, if someone has physical access to your computer, in most

0:09:34cases game over as far as security for a variety of reasons. For fingerprints they

0:09:40need to have physical access to either you or something you've touched to lift

0:09:43your fingerprints and there's been many demonstrations the web like oh you can

0:09:45lift someone's fingerprint you can unlock their iPhone because you know

0:09:48fingerprints are a series of ridges and we can get them out and make a little

0:09:50plastic mold of it and you're gone. Right now usually you can't get fingerprints

0:09:57from a normal photo of people like if you're walking down the street and

0:10:00someone snaps a picture of you they can't lift your fingerprints from that

0:10:03picture or if they Google you they probably won't find close-up pictures of

0:10:07your fingerprints or anything you've touched at a resolution where they can

0:10:10lift your fingerprints. But for most people you can find plenty of pictures

0:10:14of their face and you could fairly, not easily but much more easily, remotely

0:10:21without ever being anywhere near that person or anything they've touched

0:10:24reproduce their face in a 3D manner from a series of photos that are taken a

0:10:28whole bunch of different angles and make it use a 3D printer to make a little

0:10:32mold and then print out a picture of their face and slap it onto the mannequin and it

0:10:37fools the depth sensors and it fools the the camera and you've unlocked their thing with

0:10:42their face.

0:10:44Again this is kind of like mission impossible whatever stuff if someone is this determined

0:10:47to attack you it's probably much better just to call you and tell and tell you they're

0:10:51from Microsoft and they want to reset your password because that's much easier way to

0:10:54get into your stuff but thinking about this and how easy it is to pull your fingerprints

0:11:00versus make a 3d model of your face versus whatever has reminded me once again of the

0:11:05trouble with all biometric security which we all you see in like the future you know sci-fi movies

0:11:11they're always putting their hands on things or doing retina scans or where you know we're living

0:11:15in the future now with fingerprints i use my fingerprint to unlock my phone all the time i

0:11:18love it it's awesome but the trouble with all biometrics is if they are compromised in any way

0:11:26if people have your fingerprints or have a nice 3D mold of your face,

0:11:30you can't change those things. You can't say, "Well, I'm going to use a new set of fingerprints."

0:11:34Always rotate your fingerprints. Don't use the same fingerprints in multiple sites, guys.

0:11:37Your fingerprints are your fingerprints, and for the most part, your face is your face.

0:11:42So once compromised, they are compromised forever. You can't use your fingerprint.

0:11:45If the whole world has high res images of your fingerprints, your fingerprints are useless.

0:11:50Never mind that in this country, anyway, law enforcement can make you put your stupid finger

0:11:53on the thing anyway. But just in general biometrics, they're unlike passwords that

0:11:58you can change and rotate or whatever, you can't change them. Even your retinas,

0:12:02if you do a retina scan and someone has like a detailed map of your retina and

0:12:05makes a little fake eyeball with your retina scan, you can't use retina scans

0:12:07anymore. It's bad. And if it became commonplace,

0:12:12it's the definition of repeating your password. You only have 10 fingers,

0:12:15right? You have a different finger on each secure thing.

0:12:19So in general biometrics are a great convenience, but if

0:12:23in sci-fi movies, or our youth anyway,

0:12:26they were always presented as a much more secure way,

0:12:28like, "Ha ha, you can't get in

0:12:29"because you don't have my eyeball or my finger."

0:12:31And then it didn't take long for the movies

0:12:33to shift into gouging people's eyeballs out

0:12:35and cutting off their hands to get their fingerprints.

0:12:37There's another downside of biometrics,

0:12:39but in general, I think biometrics are settling in

0:12:41to be the casual convenience feature.

0:12:45Like it's the reason I unlock my phone with it,

0:12:46because who wants to type in some big long password

0:12:49every time you unlock your phone?

0:12:50but not for increased security.

0:12:52For increased security, we're still stuck with for now

0:12:57big giant passwords and multiple factors.

0:13:01- I love that ripping out somebody's eyes

0:13:03and cutting off their fingers is described by you, John,

0:13:06as a downside.

0:13:07- I mean, it is.

0:13:09- It's a pretty significant downside in my book though.

0:13:12- No one's gonna do that unless you're in a sci-fi movie,

0:13:15like, 'cause no one cares that much about your crap.

0:13:17And again, there are much easier ways to get at your crap,

0:13:19like just forcing you to put your finger on it

0:13:21because you're not a big tough guy.

0:13:22But in the movies, to get into the evil villains lair,

0:13:26the, you know, you cut off the guy's hand,

0:13:28cut off the henchman's hand

0:13:29and you just shove it on the panel.

0:13:31- Didn't Tom Cruise's character do that in Minority Report?

0:13:34- You got new eyes.

0:13:35- It's been done so many times, so many times.

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0:15:31(upbeat music)

0:15:34- All right, so there's been a little bit of

0:15:38sort of kind of back and forth between our show

0:15:42and one host across two other shows,

0:15:45which is a friend of the show, Mike Hurley.

0:15:48He has talked on his two podcasts, Upgrade and Connected,

0:15:53about some arguments or counterarguments

0:15:57about whether or not the iPad is worth Apple's attention.

0:16:00And you really should listen to both Upgrade and Connected

0:16:03in, well, in general, but particularly the latest episodes,

0:16:06and we'll put links in the show notes.

0:16:09I'm going to try to unfairly summarize Mike's points,

0:16:14and then--

0:16:15- I can't wait to hear this.

0:16:17- Yeah, yeah, and Marco can add his two cents

0:16:20about all this.

0:16:21What I got from what Mike said was,

0:16:25hey, if you look at modern iPads and modern Macs,

0:16:29where you define modern slightly arbitrarily,

0:16:34but basically can run the most recent versions

0:16:37of iOS and macOS,

0:16:39I don't remember the exact numbers, but modern Macs by that definition go back between five

0:16:45and ten years, and modern iPads go back I think around five years, something like that.

0:16:49The particular numbers don't really matter that much.

0:16:52The conclusion though that Mike came to was, hey, if you look at the sales and thus assumed

0:16:59install base of modern Macs and modern iOS devices, or excuse me, iPads, there are like

0:17:07twice as many iPads as there are Macs.

0:17:10So if there's that many iPads in the wild, shouldn't that be where Apple puts most of

0:17:16its attention?

0:17:17Because presumably, all of these iPads are still in use, and presumably at least a subset

0:17:23of these owners, iPad owners, are using them for—and I'm doing scare quotes here—work

0:17:28stuff.

0:17:29So shouldn't that be where Apple puts all of its attention?

0:17:32Or maybe not all, but a lot of its attention?

0:17:35And that's a super, super, super summarized version.

0:17:37Again, listen to Connected and Upgrade,

0:17:40actually in the reverse order, listen to Upgrade first.

0:17:42But anyway, listen to them to get the longer versions.

0:17:44But that's kind of what I got from it.

0:17:46Is that fair to say?

0:17:48- Yeah, I think so.

0:17:49I mean, and this was in response to what a lot of people

0:17:53were talking about after the earnings came out,

0:17:56what, two weeks ago now,

0:17:57about how iPad sales continued to drop.

0:18:01And many people commented on this with theories,

0:18:03myself included, both on my blog,

0:18:05and then we talked about it on the show last week.

0:18:07And many, many people,

0:18:10every time there's quarterly earnings that come out

0:18:12and it shows that the iPad sales are going down,

0:18:14which has happened a lot in the last few years,

0:18:17everyone has these theories about,

0:18:18well, here's why the iPad has failed or is failing,

0:18:21or you can't get real work done on it or whatever else.

0:18:24And so if you are an iPad Pro heavy user,

0:18:28like Mike and Federico and some of our other friends are,

0:18:32then this makes sense to be defensive about

0:18:36because it's very hard to separate out these arguments

0:18:40into like individual things to talk about.

0:18:44A lot of times people are arguing past each other

0:18:46because they're not quite hearing

0:18:49what the other argument was

0:18:50or they're responding more to a general feeling

0:18:53or to a general kind of trend of where the commentary is

0:18:57or has been rather than what somebody actually said

0:19:01what people are actually trying to figure out.

0:19:02And there's nuance to all this stuff.

0:19:04So part of what Mike and Jason on Upgrade were responding to

0:19:09was not just what we said, but I think a lot of it

0:19:12was based on us and what we said,

0:19:14and what I wrote in my blog post about

0:19:16what if the iPad isn't the future of computing.

0:19:18And so I did want to address this, hopefully briefly, here.

0:19:23And I'm actually, I'm working with Mike,

0:19:25we actually might do a little special

0:19:26with just me and Mike arguing about it

0:19:27maybe next week sometime, but we'll.

0:19:29- Do I get not to get to participate in that?

0:19:32- Ooh.

0:19:32- 'Cause I'm right about everything

0:19:33and you guys just have to argue about

0:19:34which one is gonna be more wrong.

0:19:36- Ooh. - Ooh.

0:19:37- Yikes. - We'll have to--

0:19:38- I didn't know that I listened to these episodes

0:19:39but it seems like it was Mike versus Marco

0:19:41but I said stuff too.

0:19:43Didn't anyone disagree with the stuff I said?

0:19:45- You got hit too, don't worry.

0:19:47You and I were kinda lumped in together.

0:19:48Anyway, so-- - Oh, that's unfair.

0:19:50Now that's ridiculous. (laughing)

0:19:52- I knew that would get you.

0:19:53Anyway, so here's my actual position here.

0:19:59Obviously people are getting real work done on iPads.

0:20:01Not every iPad owner of course,

0:20:03but as Mike accurately pointed out,

0:20:06not every Mac is sold and used to do quote,

0:20:08"real work," whatever that means.

0:20:10Mike's main point was also that the iPad,

0:20:13obviously even with the downward slope of its sales curve,

0:20:17is still selling like two to two and a half times

0:20:20unit sales of what Macs are selling.

0:20:23And there are still way more iPads out there than Macs,

0:20:27and so therefore this really is a serious platform.

0:20:30And I'm not arguing against any of that actually.

0:20:35My main argument with my post,

0:20:38and hopefully if I express it properly last week,

0:20:41is that the iPad is presented in so many views

0:20:46both from Apple and from analysts and fans

0:20:50as quote, the future of computing.

0:20:52And what I interpret that to mean is

0:20:55a replacement ultimately or largely a replacement

0:20:58for the PC and the Mac.

0:21:00What we're mostly seeing is that, you know,

0:21:03PCs have been a little bit contracting for a while,

0:21:06but Mac sales have been pretty solid.

0:21:09The rise of the iPad over, it's been seven years now,

0:21:13and it's been popular the whole time.

0:21:15So like, it's selling a lot, the iPad's selling a lot,

0:21:17but during that entire rise, sales of Macs haven't gone down.

0:21:21So if the iPad were really like the future of computing,

0:21:24in quotes, I'm doing finger quotes here, sorry,

0:21:27in the way that that means replacing PCs and Macs

0:21:31for a lot of people, I think the numbers

0:21:33are showing otherwise, and I made the case last week

0:21:36that for a lot of people, if you're gonna choose

0:21:39between only being able to afford or only wanting

0:21:41to own either an iPad or a computer,

0:21:45they're still picking that computer.

0:21:47I think the sales show that, and there's lots of reasons

0:21:49as we got into last week about why that might be,

0:21:52things like the limitations of doing things on the iPad

0:21:56and how many limitations you have there

0:21:58versus what limitations tend to be on PCs

0:22:01and differences in usability and everything.

0:22:03We argued about this, so I'm not gonna repeat the whole thing.

0:22:06All this is not to say that you can't get worked on

0:22:08on an iPad or that iPads are only for consumption.

0:22:11I never said that.

0:22:13This is also all not to say that nobody is replacing

0:22:17their PC or Mac with an iPad.

0:22:20I didn't say that either.

0:22:21but I think very clearly my argument here

0:22:25that I'm clarifying now again,

0:22:26my argument is that on a large scale,

0:22:31it doesn't appear that tablets are replacing PCs.

0:22:34And the Windows world is a little bit messier

0:22:38'cause they kind of have these combo things.

0:22:39But on the Apple side, I think it's very, very clear

0:22:42that the iPad is not replacing the Mac.

0:22:45It seems that most people who buy the iPad

0:22:47are buying it as the third device.

0:22:50However they order it in their minds,

0:22:52they still have a phone and a computer,

0:22:55and the iPad is added to that mix.

0:22:57Again, not everybody, not all iPads,

0:22:59but this is added to the mix for so many of these people.

0:23:03And so while everyone can name someone who got an iPad

0:23:08and doesn't use their computer anymore,

0:23:10a lot of people also use computers and don't buy iPads.

0:23:13So I think the sales reflect the reality here.

0:23:16The iPad, like so many things in technology,

0:23:19has not destroyed what came before it, it has added to it.

0:23:23And so in a world where it is one of many devices

0:23:27that people used to get computing on,

0:23:28as opposed to the device that is replacing the computer,

0:23:33I worry about the direction that Apple is taking

0:23:36between the Mac and the iPad,

0:23:38because it sure looks like, from Apple's point of view,

0:23:41and we'll get to this crazy slash it rumor in a little bit,

0:23:44but it sure looks like, for the most part,

0:23:45what we see from Apple, is that the Mac is kind of like,

0:23:48as I said last week, it's kind of like

0:23:49in maintenance mode, it seems like they're not really

0:23:51putting a lot of huge effort into moving

0:23:54the Mac paradigm forward.

0:23:55It seems like they consider the Mac basically done

0:23:58and they're doing fairly minor things to it.

0:24:01Touch bar hardware engineering aside, yes, okay,

0:24:03but the software model seems like it's been fairly minor

0:24:06and not seeing a lot of meaningful changes

0:24:08or engineering effort put into it.

0:24:10Could be wrong, but this is what we're seeing

0:24:11from the outside.

0:24:13Whereas the iPad, if that were to be the future

0:24:16computing, then that needs more investment.

0:24:19What we're seeing instead is that that's not the future

0:24:22computing, and Apple's kinda neglecting both of these

0:24:23platforms, but that's a story for another day, I guess.

0:24:27But I just wanted to clarify my argument on this,

0:24:29is not that the iPad is useless or dead or not possible

0:24:33to get worked on, simply that it is showing itself

0:24:37through sales to be, in reality, a third device

0:24:41for a lot of people, and to not be replacing the Mac.

0:24:45- While you were talking about that,

0:24:45was thinking about a fan comment I think was the last show that Apple doesn't

0:24:50make best best anymore and thinking about Mac sales not that they're

0:24:56declining but as as the Mac has become over many years proportionally less of

0:25:04what Apple sells mostly because the iPhone honestly you know because they

0:25:07sell bazillion iPhones right but even you know the iPad has pointed out that

0:25:10sells as much or more than the Mac these days. To go back to our favorite

0:25:16well, the good old car analogy, in the car world if you sell a small number of cars

0:25:23and you are a going concern in the car business, chances are good that the small

0:25:28number of cars you sell are extreme in some way. No one sells a small number of

0:25:33Toyota Camry's. Like you can't run a car business by selling 5,000 Toyota Camry's

0:25:39a year. that's not a thing, right? but you can sell 5000 ferraris a year and be okay.

0:25:46you can sell 5000 humvees maybe and be okay, or that's a bad example to this GM. but anyway,

0:25:52if you sell in small volume, you specialize. and very often you charge tons of money, like

0:25:58way out of proportion to the quality of the car that you're selling, you know jaguar or

0:26:02whatever, sorry, you know, maybe that's not true these days, i know they're better. anyway,

0:26:07If the Mac, again, not low volume but proportionally lower volume, if the Mac becomes the minor

0:26:15player in the world of the iPhone, which is the Toyota Camry, right, and maybe even the

0:26:20iPad is selling more than it, you know, on an ongoing basis, that would be the perfect

0:26:26time for them to look at that line and say, "Well, who is still buying Macs?

0:26:29Why would someone want a Mac over an iPad?

0:26:31Oh, they have more demand and need than the more sophisticated tasks."

0:26:35Go back to the old world Apple, which was perfectly willing to have a machine that could

0:26:41be configured with an obscene amount of RAM, with a ridiculous number of the most expensive

0:26:46CPUs, with a very large hard drive and a very big hot expensive GPU, and overcharge for

0:26:53all of it.

0:26:54That's the old Apple way.

0:26:56Make a machine that I can configure to be as much as an Apple Watch edition.

0:27:00be able to configure, you used to even with the old 2013 Mac Pro, a 15-20,000 dollar Mac.

0:27:07It's not worth that much money. It's overpriced in the same way that a Ferrari is not worth

0:27:11that much more than a Corvette that has almost the same performance. But for people in certain

0:27:15markets, whether it's because you need the absolute biggest best and you're willing to

0:27:19pay for it like it's a blip on your radar, or just because you want a Ferrari because

0:27:23you think it's cool, as your volumes get lower in proportion to the rest of your business,

0:27:27becomes a way to extract more money from this product line.

0:27:31And so it seems that they are losing interest in the Mac.

0:27:33I wish they would have enough interest to say, "Can't we fleece those people?"

0:27:36Because at this point, I'm begging to be fleeced.

0:27:39Can't we, you know...

0:27:40Like how...

0:27:41Have you priced out a Touch Bar MacBook Pro by any chance, Jon?

0:27:44I know, I know.

0:27:45I mean, that's a thing too, but it's still within the realm of reason.

0:27:48You can't even get it with 32 gigs RAM, right?

0:27:52And if there are people who have those demands, there's nowhere to go in the Mac world for

0:27:56them.

0:27:57Regardless of where we want to draw the line between, where is the line between people

0:28:02who really need a personal computer-style thing and people who need an iPad and people

0:28:06who just need a phone, there's a continuum there.

0:28:08But at a certain point, we all agree that the Mac is at one end of that spectrum, right?

0:28:14No one's arguing that the Mac is in between the iPad or the phone or something.

0:28:17It is one end of that spectrum.

0:28:19You just need to extend that line out and make sure that if someone is forced into a

0:28:24a Mac or has to use a Mac because of their work, that they can go all the way up.

0:28:29And you know, because it's a low volume relative to the phone market, charge tons of money,

0:28:34get super high margins, maybe be less into the $500 increases on your laptop model, which

0:28:42is more of a mainstream thing, and just put all that money into, I don't know, like a

0:28:45Mac that's for professionals, like you could shorten the name, but whatever.

0:28:49I know we're in circles here, but I was just...

0:28:52- The sad part is they have been doing that to the Mac Pro.

0:28:55Every Mac Pro generation is more expensive

0:28:57than the last one.

0:28:58- I know, but then they didn't give you one

0:28:59with two CPUs in it, right?

0:29:01And then they stopped-- - They still raised the price.

0:29:03- I know, I know, but it just seems like it's frustrating

0:29:06when at any price you can't throw your money at Apple

0:29:09and say just give me as much RAM

0:29:12as will physically fit in the machine

0:29:13because I'm doing some weird application

0:29:15and I don't care how much it costs.

0:29:16And it's like nope, not interested in selling you that.

0:29:19and you should be because it's a good way

0:29:22to make money off suckers like us.

0:29:23- And also, to bring it back a little bit

0:29:27just to the iPad discussion,

0:29:28I did wanna also mention a great post

0:29:31that our friend David Sparks made over at Max Sparky

0:29:34about his interpretation.

0:29:37He is also a very iPad Pro user.

0:29:40And his interpretation basically of trying to explain

0:29:43the way the iPad sales dip is, in short,

0:29:47I hope I'm summarizing this accurately,

0:29:48In short, that basically most people aren't pushing

0:29:52their iPad hard, that's why so many people are able,

0:29:56even people who have decided to make the iPad

0:29:59a part of their life or a part of their workflow or both,

0:30:02they're still perfectly okay using a four year old iPad.

0:30:06And the main reason why that he's saying,

0:30:09which I think is right on, is that they're just not

0:30:13pushing it hard enough because what people do on iPads,

0:30:17what the software does, what is possible to do well on it,

0:30:23is usually pretty light workload kind of stuff.

0:30:26It isn't that the hardware is not getting better,

0:30:28the hardware is getting way better,

0:30:30but just what most people are doing on the iPad

0:30:31doesn't need better hardware.

0:30:33And the blame for that and the duty to fix that

0:30:36or to try to push that forward mostly lands on Apple

0:30:39because a lot of that has to do with the OS

0:30:41the way it's structured and various limitations.

0:30:44A lot of that has to do with the app ecosystem,

0:30:46which much of that is on Apple to try to fix

0:30:51or to enable fixes to happen.

0:30:54We've seen this theme from a lot of iPad users' responses

0:30:57over the last two weeks to this.

0:30:59People love the iPad.

0:31:01People want to use it for more.

0:31:03They want to be able to do more of their work on it

0:31:06if they can't currently do all of it on it.

0:31:08But iOS needs to move forward in a way

0:31:13that lets people get more worked on more efficiently.

0:31:15I mean, there are so many really basic things

0:31:19or that we consider basic from the PC era

0:31:21of just things like managing multiple emails

0:31:24and attachments and moving photos around,

0:31:27moving documents around, things that are very hostile

0:31:31to do on iOS, that are very clunky

0:31:34or sometimes even just impossible without crazy hacks

0:31:37or sometimes just outright impossible.

0:31:40Simple stuff like moving media around

0:31:43and dealing with people's files.

0:31:46iOS really fights people a lot.

0:31:47Basic multitasking stuff,

0:31:49the multitasking implementation now is very limited

0:31:52and could really use some enhancement

0:31:54and whether that's coming down the road this year or not,

0:31:57we'll see, I hope it does.

0:31:58But the point is there's still tons of room

0:32:01to improve iOS on the iPad.

0:32:03And I hope Apple tries to do that in some way

0:32:07because tons of people want that,

0:32:09and it just seems like,

0:32:12it seems like regardless of which side

0:32:14of the future of computing you fall on,

0:32:16whether you think it's the iPad or the Mac,

0:32:19it seems like there's plenty to complain

0:32:21about Apple neglecting your platform either way.

0:32:24I hope Apple cares enough about

0:32:26the actual future of computing

0:32:28to invest very heavily in at least one of these platforms,

0:32:30'cause it seems right now that

0:32:32the Mac is in maintenance mode indefinitely,

0:32:34and the iPad gets occasional updates from iOS

0:32:39when it's convenient for them.

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0:33:51On the idea that the iPads, like people keep using them because it still does

0:33:57what they want to do even though they could buy a much better one. I think

0:34:00is another situation where Apple probably has data about this, but trying to think about it

0:34:06anecdotally, there's two things that make you, two things that come to mind immediately that

0:34:11make you buy a new whatever. One is the usual tractor of software. Basically if you have a

0:34:17vibrant software ecosystem, eventually your old phone doesn't run the cool new app that all your

0:34:21friends are talking about. So the more vibrant the ecosystem is, the more apps take advantage

0:34:27of new hardware or are being dragged along by the platform by like not supporting 32-bit apps anymore

0:34:32or whatever, you know. The more that is a thing, it'll make you say, "Oh, I don't like my phone

0:34:38anymore because all my friends are using AppX and I can't use that because it says it doesn't run on

0:34:44my phone or something," right? So software ecosystem, which again is lacking on the iPad,

0:34:49like there's more of that on the phone than there is on the iPad in terms of social pressure and

0:34:55software, you know, action in the software market to put it along.

0:34:59And the second one, and this is where Apple would have the data, is how many people

0:35:03replace their phones because they break them.

0:35:04I see a lot of broken phones.

0:35:07Um, and I see fewer broken iPads.

0:35:10I do see cracked iPads.

0:35:11You see them in airports and stuff, but I also see kids in airports with iPads dropping

0:35:16them like they're a juice box and just bounce in the giant rubbery case they're in.

0:35:21Right.

0:35:21So I'm going to say probably percentage wise, phones and their lives because they break

0:35:28more often than iPads, just based on my personal experience and anecdotally.

0:35:32But again, Apple would know because they probably in all these surveys say, "Why are you buying

0:35:36a new phone?"

0:35:37It seems to me that those two tractors are making the phone replacement cycle.

0:35:44Notice I didn't list as one of the things that's making people replace their phones

0:35:46is that their phone feels slow.

0:35:48In general, I think iPhones aren't like Windows computers where you use them for two years

0:35:53and they're so crapped up that you just need to get a new one.

0:35:56Again, this is based on my experience and talking to other people.

0:35:58That doesn't happen with phones as much.

0:36:00Not saying it doesn't happen at all.

0:36:01Sometimes your phone does get slow and you know, I upgraded the OS and then my phone

0:36:04feels slow and that is another factor in it, but I feel like it is far behind software

0:36:11ecosystem pressuring you into upgrading your phone and just plain dropping it.

0:36:15if none of those things are true for the iPad, then it is protected. And it kind of makes me fear for the day

0:36:20when Apple makes an iPhone that you can drop all day long and it never breaks, will the phone suddenly become like the iPad?

0:36:26If again, if this theory is correct that you know, the people aren't buying new iPads because the one they have is working just fine.

0:36:32I think people's phones would be working just fine

0:36:34if there wasn't some new app they wanted to play if they didn't keep dropping them. Maybe I'm overestimating the dropping and maybe I

0:36:41Notice cracks too much because I'm always amazed at the vast percentage of people I see like on the train or whatever

0:36:47Just swiping their thumbs along totally shattered phones

0:36:50You know I was or not because people drop them and they're made of glass and it's a problem. So I don't know

0:36:56really need to get

0:36:59Product marketing from Apple on the show now that we're mad with power and say what are your percentages?

0:37:03Why do people replace their phones?

0:37:05Is it because they have an Android phone and it's getting old and slow?

0:37:08Is it because they drop their old one or is it because they want to play a new game?

0:37:10- I, first of all, that's okay, that'll be question number

0:37:15one for when we get Phil, well question number two.

0:37:18Question number one will be about the Mac Pro.

0:37:20- I have many other questions earlier in the queue,

0:37:22we may never get to that one, sorry folks.

0:37:24- That's fair, but I do think you are underestimating

0:37:27how many people replace their phone because it's old and slow

0:37:30because--

0:37:31- Do you think it's just OS upgrades?

0:37:33- Yeah.

0:37:34- I brought that up and I have heard that from a lot

0:37:36of people and it is a real thing, but I was gonna say

0:37:39I know it's forcing you to upgrade your phone,

0:37:41but Apple's pretty pushy these days, aren't they?

0:37:42- Yeah, Apple really, really pushes the upgrade pretty hard,

0:37:46and sometimes like a critical app for people will require it,

0:37:51so that kind of forces them to--

0:37:52- I mean, they pushed you on the iPad too.

0:37:53Like, I had iPads that I regret upgrading the OS for

0:37:56because they're just so old,

0:37:57and you upgrade to the very last,

0:37:59and like, oh, I should've stayed one version back,

0:38:01so why wouldn't that make people

0:38:02replace their iPads in the same way?

0:38:04- Well, that's a good question, worth thinking about.

0:38:06I think one of the reasons for that,

0:38:08maybe one of the biggest reasons for that

0:38:10is the types of apps that you use on the iPad

0:38:14versus the types of apps that you use on the phone.

0:38:17And like, is there an app that's pushing you

0:38:19to upgrade or not?

0:38:20On the iPad, I think the data shows

0:38:25that despite the community of people

0:38:28who get a lot of work done on the iPad,

0:38:31a lot of iPad users are using it mainly

0:38:34for video watching, web browsing, and email, Facebook.

0:38:38Like the basic email web video kind of workflow.

0:38:43And for that, probably nothing's really gonna push you

0:38:46to really upgrade your OS.

0:38:47Like you can still use Apple's Mail app

0:38:49and whatever OS you have, you can still use the web browser.

0:38:51You can probably, like I would imagine like Facebook

0:38:54and Netflix and stuff probably keep

0:38:55their minimum version pretty low.

0:38:57- Oh, they'll upgrade the OS, but it doesn't matter

0:39:00if you upgrade the OS.

0:39:01If you're just using to play video,

0:39:02it really doesn't matter exactly how clunky the animation is

0:39:04and springboard when you launch the Netflix app.

0:39:06All you care about is once the video starts playing,

0:39:07it's fine.

0:39:08- That's fair, but anyway, regardless,

0:39:10I think the way most iPads are used,

0:39:15it probably has a slower upgrade cycle

0:39:18from the software side simply because

0:39:20they're not often using a lot of apps

0:39:22that require the newest version of the OS,

0:39:24whereas on the phone, you have a lot more like,

0:39:27you know, new games that come out,

0:39:28new cutting edge apps that come out,

0:39:29usually come out on the phone first or only,

0:39:31and you have more early adopters using it.

0:39:33It seems like there's more driving that,

0:39:34but also, there's this consistent narrative with the iPad

0:39:39that explains a lot of this, that is probably correct,

0:39:42and there is some data to back it up,

0:39:44that basically, while you can get work done on it,

0:39:48a lot of people do use it for mostly consumption.

0:39:51That's not a judgment, that's just what people do.

0:39:54That's also true of computers, that's also true of phones,

0:39:56however, that is true of iPads,

0:39:58and that people's needs on iPads are fairly simple,

0:40:02most of the time.

0:40:04Whoever's fault that is doesn't really matter.

0:40:06The point is, people do pretty simple things

0:40:08on iPads most of the time.

0:40:10- You know, it's only one data point,

0:40:12but I feel like it's relevant.

0:40:15The aforementioned iPad 3 that we had

0:40:18after we stopped using it,

0:40:22because we found it to be too old,

0:40:24it was collecting dust for months.

0:40:27And then, just a couple months back,

0:40:29I had my, I had, you know, reset it all,

0:40:32And I had my dad bring it to my grandparents.

0:40:37They live in Pennsylvania, I'm in Virginia, and although they come down from time to time,

0:40:42we haven't been up there in a long time.

0:40:44And, you know, they're not that young at this point, because I'm turning 35 pretty soon,

0:40:50and these are my grandparents.

0:40:53But we gave them this iPad 3, mostly so they could FaceTime with us and Declan and, you

0:40:58know, I guess my parents from time to time as well.

0:41:02From what I understand, they were beyond overjoyed

0:41:06to have received it, not only because of FaceTime,

0:41:11but because it's a much easier device for them to use

0:41:14than their PC, and I think it's a reasonably modern PC,

0:41:17but they were overjoyed to receive an iPad 3

0:41:21late in 2016.

0:41:25When was the iPad 3 new, like 2012 or something like that?

0:41:28Probably before that, actually.

0:41:31- 2012.

0:41:32- It was a 2012, okay.

0:41:34So yeah, so they were beyond excited

0:41:36to receive this old device,

0:41:38which for them is more than enough.

0:41:40Now obviously they have nothing to compare to.

0:41:42Obviously, in a perfect world,

0:41:45I'm sure they would prefer a brand new one.

0:41:47But for someone who hadn't had one before,

0:41:52it was way more than enough.

0:41:55And not every iPad user's gonna be like that.

0:41:57And I'm sure that there's tons of iPad users

0:42:00upgrade regularly that are not using it for work. They just really love the iPad. But

0:42:05to speak of the longevity of the iPad, this is a device that's nearly five years old now

0:42:11that brought genuine joy to their household when they received it.

0:42:16>> Well, because that's the thing. This is why old iPads are so useful and so many of

0:42:21them are still in use, because most people's needs are pretty low-end. Most people just

0:42:25want a thing that they can browse the web and send emails and see Facebook on. That's

0:42:30that's pretty much what most people do

0:42:31with any of their computing devices,

0:42:33phone, laptop, or tablet.

0:42:35And so this device is delightful for that.

0:42:39Again, but I think that that doesn't preclude

0:42:43people doing real work on it,

0:42:45and also my theory that I'm putting forth

0:42:48with these sales graphs that this is mostly

0:42:51just additive to the world technology.

0:42:53- There aren't any real answers here.

0:42:56The data that we have is shallow,

0:43:00And we have to extrapolate a lot from it.

0:43:03And so because of that, there's so much judgment involved

0:43:07and there's no clear right or wrong.

0:43:08And I think that's why we're going to talk about it

0:43:10in bits across 17 different podcasts for a little while.

0:43:15But yeah, so let's talk about something

0:43:19that's indisputably awesome.

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0:45:23- So there was this crazy, ah, dammit, sorry.

0:45:30There was this crazy rumor, or sort of rumor,

0:45:34that was posted on Slashdot as a comment.

0:45:38And this was a, in Slashdot parlance, an anonymous coward,

0:45:44which is to say somebody that didn't wanna leave their name.

0:45:47But they went on and on about how there are several

0:45:51arm-powered laptops that are drifting around internally

0:45:53at Apple, and this individual claims to have seen several

0:45:56with their own eyes.

0:45:58And they had a lot to say about it.

0:46:02I don't know the best way to summarize it,

0:46:04partially because I read this days ago,

0:46:05and I haven't looked back since,

0:46:07which was in part because it seemed kinda bananas to me.

0:46:11- Right. (laughs)

0:46:12But it seemed like the short, short version was,

0:46:17yeah, there's some apps that run on ARM,

0:46:20and the OS is really iOS-ish, even though it isn't iOS.

0:46:25A lot of things that we like to control as,

0:46:30not even necessarily power users, but users on macOS,

0:46:35not a lot of that is available

0:46:37on these supposed phantom ARM Macs.

0:46:40I didn't think this—something about this didn't feel right to me.

0:46:45Like I'm not sure I can point to a specific passage and say, "Yes, this is why it's

0:46:48bananas."

0:46:49But a lot of it just didn't feel right to me, and from what I gathered from people

0:46:52that I've spoken to, it didn't feel right to a lot of them.

0:46:55But we wanted to acknowledge its existence, and we will put a link to the show notes,

0:46:58and I'm sure that the two of you have some thoughts on it as well.

0:47:01I want to do more than just acknowledge it.

0:47:03Yeah.

0:47:04Because I don't want to entertain it as a possibility because it's not a credible

0:47:08source.

0:47:09pretend like hypothetically, let's talk about this thing

0:47:12if it existed, right?

0:47:14Because again, I don't think the sourcing is enough

0:47:16to say that this does exist, but.

0:47:18- I would say in fact the incredible shadiness

0:47:20of this post and so many of the like weird things

0:47:23that don't really sound very appley

0:47:25or don't reflect how they actually work,

0:47:27I would say this is very unlikely to be true.

0:47:30But the reason I wanna talk about this too,

0:47:33I was very happy to see it in the notes,

0:47:34is that this was an interesting idea

0:47:37for where the Mac could plausibly go.

0:47:39because while the details of this are very suspicious

0:47:42that make you discount the validity of this report,

0:47:46I do think the overall idea of such a product is plausible.

0:47:50And the idea that Apple would take you in this direction

0:47:52is very plausible.

0:47:54- It's not just plausible, this is like,

0:47:55this is the, as soon as iOS appeared,

0:47:59this is basically the exact, not exemplar,

0:48:02but like, this is the prototype of this rumor.

0:48:05The very second the first person said, iOS Mac merge,

0:48:08Like the very second someone said that many, many years ago,

0:48:11this is exactly what they were talking about.

0:48:12It says, "A Mac running on ARM CPUs

0:48:16can only get apps from the App Store.

0:48:17Everything locked down, all binary sign,

0:48:20can restore from the internet like a phone."

0:48:22Like there is nothing in this that is even outside the realm

0:48:26of the things that are being taught.

0:48:26The only reason it is, you know, it's interesting again,

0:48:29is because it's being presented as truth.

0:48:30It's kind of the same way when you tell a joke,

0:48:32you pretend it's a real story that happened to you

0:48:33to make the joke funnier.

0:48:34That's exactly how this is working here.

0:48:36But, because we haven't had, like, the reason it's worth talking about it again is because

0:48:41we haven't revisited this idea of the iOS and Mac merged totally locked down Mac thing

0:48:47again.

0:48:48And in light of the actual appearance of ARM CPUs inside Macs with the Touch Bar Mac Pros,

0:48:52and in light of all the Intel stuff and so on and so forth, and our own revisiting of

0:48:56when is it going to be time to flip the Mac over to ARM, I think it's worth revisiting

0:49:00this old rumor of the merged iOS Mac, not so much the merging of the U.S. interface-wise,

0:49:09but of literally buttoning down the Mac in all the same ways that iOS has buttoned down.

0:49:14As an example of what we talked about last show, like either expanding the capabilities

0:49:18of iOS or making the Mac easier.

0:49:22This would be an example of taking all of those sharp edges in the Mac and filing them

0:49:25down as much as possible to make something that is hopefully almost as easy to use as

0:49:30- This is an iPad but still much more capable.

0:49:32- Yeah, and so I think it's worth going over

0:49:34some of the details because our chief summarizer

0:49:36and chief failed to.

0:49:38- Sorry.

0:49:39- It's okay, you've had a long day,

0:49:41we'll get to that in the after show.

0:49:42But, yeah, sorry.

0:49:46But yeah, so basically the idea put forth

0:49:48by this comment basically is that it is a,

0:49:53it is like the next generation of laptop presumably,

0:49:55or possibly of all Macs.

0:49:57It is an ARM processor, all custom Apple ARM hardware,

0:50:00just like the iPads and phones.

0:50:02It only boots the signed OS images

0:50:05that come over the internet.

0:50:08I assume not every time, not like a Netboot,

0:50:10but it only boots, similar to iPhones and iPads,

0:50:13there is no physical install media,

0:50:15there's no downgrading, it just,

0:50:18here's the software update for you,

0:50:19here's what you get, you can't downgrade,

0:50:21you can't choose what version you run,

0:50:22just here's what you get, period.

0:50:24They said a lot of the OS X legacy utilities

0:50:28and stuff are missing, there's no more X11,

0:50:30there's no audio MIDI setup, a lot of that stuff.

0:50:34No disk utility, no terminal, which is interesting.

0:50:36System preferences and a lot of functionality

0:50:38has been moved into a new app called Settings to match iOS.

0:50:41The App Store is mandatory,

0:50:44including even things that require hardware drivers.

0:50:47Sounds kind of similar to when you plug in,

0:50:50or when you connect a Bluetooth or lightning device

0:50:52to a phone and it can associate itself

0:50:54with an app on the App Store that lets it work.

0:50:56Similar to that, but for drivers on the Mac.

0:50:58So you get a new scanner or something, you plug it in,

0:51:01and it launches you to the Mac App Store

0:51:05to download the driver for that.

0:51:07Similarly, all drivers would be kind of like iOS sandboxified

0:51:11where something could install one of these drivers

0:51:14at the deep level of system,

0:51:15but then you could just go into a system pref pane

0:51:17and delete it and it's gone.

0:51:19It doesn't leave files behind.

0:51:21It's very iOS-y in that way.

0:51:23With iOS, you can delete an app,

0:51:25and you know everything about that app is gone.

0:51:27There's no remnants of it left in your phone or anything.

0:51:30And of course the Mac doesn't work that way now.

0:51:32You know, Macs get gummed up over time with all this crap.

0:51:34And you have all this junk in your library folder

0:51:37and everything else.

0:51:38And so, and then, just a couple other things.

0:51:41But yeah, basically, oh, and the file system is kind of like,

0:51:46how do you pronounce C-H root in Linux world?

0:51:50Is it chroot?

0:51:51I don't know.

0:51:52But basically the file system is like chroot.

0:51:55So basically, what appears to be at root

0:51:59is your home directory,

0:52:01and you don't even see the system files.

0:52:03They're not even there.

0:52:05They exist in the file system,

0:52:07but you don't see them from your point of view,

0:52:09from your user space.

0:52:10You see at root your files and nobody else's.

0:52:13And they said there was no concept,

0:52:15seemingly, of multi-user stuff.

0:52:16But I don't wanna get too much into the specifics

0:52:19of this post because, again,

0:52:20I think the credibility of it is pretty low.

0:52:23But as a future direction of Mac OS

0:52:27and of the Mac hardware platform,

0:52:30I do think this is worth talking about,

0:52:31not only because it's so plausible

0:52:33based on what Apple seems to want to do,

0:52:35but also I think, I will have the seemingly,

0:52:39in this community, very unpopular opinion

0:52:42that I think this could be really good.

0:52:46With a few minor exceptions,

0:52:48I think this could be really good.

0:52:50The only things about this

0:52:52that give me a lot of pause are that it said

0:52:57that everything has to come through the Mac App Store.

0:52:58That's number one and I think, you know,

0:53:00the Mac has this wonderful gatekeeper system

0:53:03and has this kind of like code signing

0:53:05without app review system called developer ID.

0:53:09If the developer ID and gatekeeper come forward

0:53:12into whatever this is, again, assume this is real

0:53:15even though it probably isn't.

0:53:16Thought experiment time, okay.

0:53:19If this were to have some kind of like developer mode

0:53:22where you could build open source stuff

0:53:24and however it's container,

0:53:27if it's in your own little choruda jail, fine,

0:53:29but if you can build open source stuff,

0:53:31if you can develop code, if you can compile code

0:53:34with your C compiler or whatever else

0:53:35and just run it on this thing

0:53:37without the OS's code-telling stuff

0:53:39interfering badly with that,

0:53:41if that's possible to do here,

0:53:43and if you can distribute software through developer ID,

0:53:47which would bypass the Mac App Store,

0:53:50then I think this is not only plausible and could be good,

0:53:55but it might be great, because a lot of this

0:53:58solves real problems with the Mac and with PC style OSs.

0:54:02One of the biggest problems is like,

0:54:04how apps spread themselves out all over the place,

0:54:06all over the system.

0:54:07You know, they are, like it isn't, as I said with iOS,

0:54:10you know, iOS, you delete the app, it's gone.

0:54:12On the Mac, you delete the app,

0:54:13and there's garbage everywhere,

0:54:15and you have to use Mac cleanup utilities

0:54:17to clean all the garbage out sometimes.

0:54:18You have to go find these files

0:54:20that are spread all over your system

0:54:21and you can't be sure what an app is doing

0:54:23when you install it and all this stuff.

0:54:25The PC and Mac style of app security is outdated.

0:54:30We've talked about this before,

0:54:33how the Unix idea of anything you run

0:54:36just has access to your entire user account

0:54:39and everything you've ever made on a user account

0:54:41and all your files and it can delete files at will,

0:54:43it can read everything of yours.

0:54:46That is an outdated model.

0:54:47that is not great for the future of computing.

0:54:49And one of the things that makes iOS so appealing

0:54:52to a lot of people for a lot of reasons

0:54:54is the additional simplicity and security

0:54:56that the sandboxing model that it has enforces.

0:54:59I think it is possible to do this well.

0:55:02A lot of Mac diehards are really against this idea

0:55:07when they saw this comment and assuming it might be real.

0:55:10And I can see why, why you would be so against this.

0:55:14But I think, again,

0:55:16it's just like that very slight tweak of a developer mode

0:55:19and being able to distribute software with developer ID,

0:55:23that's pretty much all I would need for this.

0:55:26It sounds like it would be really good

0:55:29in a lot of other ways.

0:55:30Either the Mac is in maintenance mode,

0:55:33as I keep saying, it seems that way,

0:55:35and nothing ever changes and that's fine,

0:55:38or if it is going to change,

0:55:40if Apple really is working on the next generation of OS,

0:55:45not just 10 dot something else, the entire next generation,

0:55:49like when they went from classic to OS X.

0:55:52If they are indeed working on such a thing for the Mac,

0:55:55which I would argue they should be

0:55:57because it would be ridiculous

0:55:59to continue a computing platform forward

0:56:01with no plans to ever do that,

0:56:02then I think this is exactly the kind of thing they would do

0:56:08and we should be prepared for it

0:56:10and we can see a preview of what it's like

0:56:12by looking at iOS,

0:56:14'cause iOS is even more restrictive than this.

0:56:16And so if this is plausible and if this happens

0:56:21and if it's done well with those couple of little holes

0:56:24pumped through the wall for developers

0:56:26and for distribution through developer ID, as I said,

0:56:29I think this could be a great move forward.

0:56:33This could be the simplicity and security of iOS,

0:56:37but with windowing and file management

0:56:40and access to your files in a traditional paradigm

0:56:43and stuff like that.

0:56:45And yes, it would require a lot of apps to be rewritten,

0:56:48some things that worked in the old system

0:56:50wouldn't work anymore, but a lot of this stuff is ancient.

0:56:53Like, I don't need X11 anymore.

0:56:55I don't, like, there's a lot of this stuff is so ancient.

0:56:59Mac OS is very old, it has accumulated cruft over time

0:57:02because everything does.

0:57:04This new way of doing things sounds like it could really be

0:57:09the actual future of computing that blends together

0:57:12the greatness of iOS with a PC style paradigm

0:57:16to allow more types of work to get done for more people.

0:57:19This sounds really good to me.

0:57:20- The actual future of computer.

0:57:23I spend all this time explaining myself

0:57:24and you just ignore me.

0:57:25(laughing)

0:57:26It's fine.

0:57:28Last week we talked about how the iPad was like,

0:57:30was making progress in terms of expanding its capabilities

0:57:32with multitasking and the pen and the bigger size and stuff,

0:57:35but like, but kind of slowly.

0:57:37The Mac has been doing that same thing,

0:57:40but in the other direction,

0:57:42but even more slowly.

0:57:44'Cause if you think about the Mac,

0:57:46the Mac trying to simplify itself,

0:57:49trying to be friendlier, this has been a process.

0:57:53The process took a pretty big leap

0:57:54with classic to OS X actually,

0:57:57because many things that were way more complicated

0:58:00in classic were massively simplified.

0:58:02The dock is the best example of that.

0:58:04All the ways that you could manage the same stuff

0:58:07that the dock is supposed to do on classic Mac OS

0:58:10the time we transitioned. The doc was just like the most dumbed down version of all the other

0:58:16options we had, not even including third-party things of which there were many. This was this

0:58:20one first-party thing, no you can't use the private APIs to make your own doc type thing,

0:58:26we will fight you on that, and it is way simpler and don't worry about it because that's all

0:58:30everybody needs, right? And sandboxing, another example, a long slow painful slog trying to get

0:58:37some of the benefits that you get in iOS. All your crap in one place, protect applications,

0:58:42protected from each other, blah blah blah. It's been slow going. We haven't been able to get there

0:58:48because sandboxing is incompatible with lots of cool things that Mac apps have done and still

0:58:52want to do. And it's very difficult for Apple to ever get slowly incrementally get it to the point

0:59:02where Mac applications are sandboxed in the same way as iOS applications.

0:59:06Instead, they've been saying, "You can be a Mac app, and your stuff can still be in

0:59:11seven different places because it kind of has to be, but we'll put some constraints on you."

0:59:15And it's this weird mismatch between having to do that, but also having to be protected

0:59:22from yourself and isolated from other applications. Even so far as how many Mac apps have struggled

0:59:27with the sandbox because the integration point on PC style operating systems is very often the file

0:59:33system and that's how applications share things with each other is I write a thing here and you

0:59:39open that same thing over there and the user is allowed to make little folders and put stuff in

0:59:43them and you're trying to sandbox things so each application only sees its own files but like

0:59:46it's been difficult and so this description of the iOS-ified Mac which again has been in people's

0:59:55minds and talked about for many many years now, the question is always how do you get

1:00:00from where we are to there?

1:00:01Because it's a big leap and trying to do it incrementally has been very difficult.

1:00:07It's been taking a long time.

1:00:09It hasn't been particularly successful.

1:00:10A lot of things, efforts have stalled out despite a lot of effort put into it.

1:00:14It you know it gets back to the question from the last week's show, is it easier to make

1:00:20the iPad more capable or make the Mac friendlier and simpler?

1:00:24And on question, I think it's still easier to make iOS more capable because if you try

1:00:29to make the Mac simpler, everything about the system and the users and the developers

1:00:34fights you at every step because there's so much entrenched tradition in software and

1:00:39conventions and capabilities and attitudes and just like, and cruft, like Marco said,

1:00:44just plain old cruft.

1:00:48It's difficult to get there.

1:00:49So this, the host here is almost kind of like wishful thinking.

1:00:54Like wouldn't it be great if we could snap our fingers and be there and like Marco said,

1:00:58one way you can do that is say, okay, well it's not macOS anymore, it's a new OS called

1:01:02something else, you know, like people would have said macOS 11 back in the days before

1:01:05the 10 got dropped, right?

1:01:08But this really would be a leap of that size if it appeared wholesale.

1:01:12You can still get there piecemeal.

1:01:14It's going to take a long time.

1:01:15You might have to wait for some people to die and there are many places where this can

1:01:20go terribly wrong.

1:01:21For example, it's obvious to us on this program as rabid Mac users that of course you'd have

1:01:28to have some mode that most people wouldn't use but that would give you access to the

1:01:32terminal that will let you build software because we're software developers and we know

1:01:35any software developer who uses a Mac, no matter what kind of development you're doing,

1:01:39even if you're doing everything in Xcode I would imagine, but definitely if you're doing

1:01:42development for any kind of server-side software, you're used to being able to install and run

1:01:48software that is not signed with Apple's Developer ID thing.

1:01:52All that Unix open source stuff, that's not signed with Developer ID.

1:01:55And if you literally can't run binaries that are not signed, if you don't have that final

1:02:00option in Gatekeeper to launch applications with the right click and the open, and all

1:02:04that, or just launching it from the command line, if that option literally does not exist

1:02:08as it doesn't on iOS unless you jailbreak, and I really don't want to be jailbreaking

1:02:11my Mac, that eliminates just so many users.

1:02:16This is not even an edge case anymore.

1:02:17This is like a large percentage of people who, you know, whole professions who use Macs

1:02:22at their desks need the ability to do that type of stuff and are going to need it for

1:02:27the foreseeable future.

1:02:28So if you cut them off, then you're just marginalizing the Mac too much, I think, because they would

1:02:33be eaten up by iOS on one side and you abandon everybody else who's using those features

1:02:37on the Mac.

1:02:38And so that's a danger zone as well.

1:02:40But the general idea of like, let me just close my eyes and open them again, and the

1:02:45Mac, at the very least, solves one or two or three of the biggest problems.

1:02:49It still wouldn't be solving the file system problem, even with the chroot stuff and everything.

1:02:54But at least you'd solve app install, management, drivers.

1:02:59Regular users wouldn't have to see disk images anymore.

1:03:04Settings and preferences would be more coherent and familiar because they're used to iOS.

1:03:08Just those wins would be huge.

1:03:10And if you can get those wins while also allowing people to do their work in the old way if

1:03:15they want to, like that's, talk about progressive disclosure, like no one, if it's a developer

1:03:20mode or whatever, like no one, believe me, people aren't going to be like, I wish I want

1:03:23to have developer mode turned on.

1:03:24No, nobody wants that.

1:03:25They want it to be simple and nice.

1:03:27It's like Casey's grandparents, they're overjoyed when it's like, oh, this is simple.

1:03:30I just do this, do this, and it all makes sense to me.

1:03:32There's no place I can get into trouble.

1:03:33They're not going to go looking for the thing to turn on developer mode.

1:03:36That's for power users, quote unquote.

1:03:38Yes, there is a class of person who will go looking for it and turn it on and you know

1:03:42Because they're interested in out there, you know, they're geeks. They're nerds. That's fine

1:03:45But regular people trust me do not want the complexity like all of us when we go into a

1:03:49Preference of screen and we see an advanced button we click it immediately

1:03:52Other people don't even want to go to the preference screen like they don't even want another preference screen exists

1:03:56They probably don't know the parent screen is it's like it doesn't need to exist. They just want it to work and work fine

1:04:01So I'm pretty much with Marco that I would love a Mac that work like this

1:04:06As long as I had the option to you know, the developer mode or the way to do other stuff. I just I'm not sure

1:04:13How long it will take to get there?

1:04:16Whether Apple has the will and wants to dedicate the resources to get there

1:04:21Because it just seems like still a much more straightforward path to continue to enhance iOS

1:04:27I feel like iOS is getting this right iOS is still getting more sophisticated at a faster rate than the Mac is getting simpler

1:04:33Which is fine with me as an old Mac user, but if I start drawing lines on graphs and

1:04:38seeing how this ends up, it just seems to me that unless Apple has a massively renewed

1:04:43interest in the Mac, that iOS will eventually overtake it because for whatever their interest

1:04:49is in the Mac, their interest in iOS seems much stronger on the phone and still even

1:04:55a little bit stronger on the iPad.

1:04:58And who knows what other weird devices they're planning.

1:05:00I mean, you've got the Watch Store on the mix there too.

1:05:02iOS as a legacy free basis for innovation seems like a much easier path

1:05:08than continuing to bang their head against the Mac. You know the by and

1:05:13large I agree with you guys but I can't help but think a couple things. One, it

1:05:19almost sounds like you're saying I want the good parts of iOS and and none of

1:05:24the parts that bother me and that's okay like I mean yeah that does sound good

1:05:29in and of itself, but I mean, for two people that really don't seem to be too terribly

1:05:36interested in the iPad, it's interesting hearing you say, "Ooh, I'd love all that stuff on

1:05:41the iPad."

1:05:42Who's people of those?

1:05:43I use the iPad every day.

1:05:44So do I.

1:05:45I use the iPad more than I use my Mac.

1:05:46Well, I can't say that, but I do use the iPad at home.

1:05:48At home, I use—definitely.

1:05:49Obviously, I work all day on a Mac, so that's the majority of my time, but in my house,

1:05:54I use my iPad literally every day, and many days go by when I don't wake my Mac up from

1:05:58- Well, but I think to clarify this,

1:06:02it's not that all of iOS is bad,

1:06:04there's tons of great stuff in iOS,

1:06:05there's tons of advantages of iOS.

1:06:08There's a, between the way iPads work

1:06:12and the way Mac OS works, there's a huge difference

1:06:16in interaction paradigm, the whole difference

1:06:20between being, you know, Mac OS is very file-centric,

1:06:24like most PCOSs, where as iOS is app-centric,

1:06:28like these are massive differences

1:06:30in just the way these systems work.

1:06:32Of course you can take some of what's good about one

1:06:35and apply it to the other.

1:06:37The only question is, where's your starting point

1:06:39and where are you going?

1:06:40And as Jon said, it's a lot easier to make iOS

1:06:44more capable than to make Mac OS simpler.

1:06:47However, no matter what you do to iOS,

1:06:50it's still going to feel like a big phone

1:06:53that's app-centric and not file-centric and everything else

1:06:56'cause that's just like the entire design of the system.

1:06:58Whereas on the Mac, if what you want

1:07:01is the PC style of computing,

1:07:05it is totally possible with something like this crazy scheme

1:07:09that this crazy comment that is probably BS,

1:07:11it is totally possible to take the best

1:07:14of PC style computing, make it still work

1:07:17the way that people who want that are accustomed to,

1:07:21but bring in the modern advantages of iOS.

1:07:24- Yeah, that summary makes a lot more sense to me.

1:07:27- Imagine if you gave your grandparents

1:07:30this Mac described in here.

1:07:33I think with the possible exception

1:07:35of the keyboard being intimidating,

1:07:37they could be just as delighted

1:07:38because from their perspective,

1:07:41if it's simple and they can figure out how to use it,

1:07:43like if it was basically as simple

1:07:45as the only way you could launch applications

1:07:46is with Launchpad.

1:07:47Launchpad was always visible in the thing.

1:07:49It would probably have to be touch, which is another issue entirely in terms of bridging

1:07:54that divide.

1:07:55But if they were never faced with the complexity of an OpenSave dialog box, or never had to

1:08:00look at a bunch of files or little documents on the desktop, or never even looked at the

1:08:04desktop and it was just basically they'll have the simplicity of an iPad, but happened

1:08:08to be a Mac, they would be just as delighted because they just want to accomplish a task.

1:08:13task is video, you know, a video conference with with my family and be able to send emails

1:08:19or whatever. And you and I could say, oh, if you had a MacBook adorable, you could do

1:08:22it just fine. But the difference between a MacBook adorable and an iPad to them is huge.

1:08:27So all you need to do to delight them with a Mac is make it so that when they use it,

1:08:32it is just as simple as an iPad. It can still have lurking under the covers all the other

1:08:37complexity. The file system stuff is a place where we continue to punt and Apple continues

1:08:42to punt. I hold out hope that there is still a better way to collaborate on things than the

1:08:47completely app-centric island model of iOS and the completely file-centric world of the PC, but

1:08:53considering no one has figured it out yet, you know, we'll just leave that off to the future.

1:08:56But again, we are talking about the future of computing, not the present. But anyway,

1:09:00that's why I think this type of Mac is appealing, because it will start to blur the lines that we're

1:09:08we're all thinking in terms of,

1:09:09because once something like this appears on the scene,

1:09:12it's not, we can't have the same conversation anymore.

1:09:14It's a different conversation entirely.

1:09:16- Yeah, the thing that I'm curious to see

1:09:21if this becomes real one day,

1:09:23and if the three of us are still blathering on on the show,

1:09:27is what are the restrictions and how egregious are they?

1:09:31And I mean, Marco talked about this some,

1:09:33but like, you know, if there's a developer mode,

1:09:36what does that really give you?

1:09:37And do you have file system access just to your change-rooted route area?

1:09:43Can you get all the way to the route route?

1:09:45Can I install a kernel extension?

1:09:47Would I want to?

1:09:49I just can't help but feel like, let's say this dropped on our laps tomorrow, and Marco

1:09:56or you or me or all three of us buy one.

1:09:59I think inevitably what would happen is it would put roadblocks in our way in ways we

1:10:04find frustrating.

1:10:06And what I'm not sure about is, would your average developer, when looking to his or

1:10:11her left and seeing the Touch Bar MacBook Pro, and then looking to his or her right

1:10:16and seeing this phantom arm-based Mac, I mean, certainly I would choose the Touch Bar MacBook

1:10:22Pro because it doesn't limit me at all.

1:10:24And this hypothetical new Mac, while it does fix a lot of problems for people in general,

1:10:30I don't think it solves any problem that I'm seeing today.

1:10:34And so I can just see, I have visions of this being like a less extreme version of me saying,

1:10:41"Well, I don't like working on the iPad because I feel like it constrains me, and I feel like

1:10:45the Mac is freeing."

1:10:46Because that is how I feel.

1:10:48And I think that this hypothetical new ARM Mac would be a lot of the same in that regard

1:10:53if perhaps a little bit less of it.

1:10:56- A lot of what we would want as developers could be accomplished through VMs.

1:11:01- True.

1:11:02Like if it was still possible to have virtual machines

1:11:06running on this in some form,

1:11:07a lot of this could be solved by containering

1:11:09and by virtual machines.

1:11:10Of like, you know, right now, like oh jeez,

1:11:13I just, I lost a day this week on Monday.

1:11:16I spent a whole day finally fixing my local Apache

1:11:21and PHP MySQL installations between my iMac and my laptop,

1:11:26both of which, my laptop never had a working one

1:11:29'cause I did a clean install when I got it

1:11:31and I just never finished setting it up

1:11:32and fixing Homebrew and fixing PHP

1:11:35and fixing the built-in Apache

1:11:36to use the right version of PHP and all this crap.

1:11:40And I tried MAMP and then I didn't like it

1:11:42so I stopped trying MAMP and like fiddling

1:11:44with all this stuff that's like all over the file system,

1:11:47all the stuff that Homebrew puts

1:11:49and different other package managers do it

1:11:51and then Homebrew complains

1:11:52that other package managers exist.

1:11:53And it's like dealing with all this crap

1:11:56all over the file system that gets upgraded

1:11:57when the system gets upgraded

1:11:58that I'm trying to put my own stuff into

1:12:00and edit the config files and everything else.

1:12:03During a lot of that, I'm like, you know,

1:12:05why don't I just install VirtualBox

1:12:07and just make a Linux VM

1:12:09and just run all the stuff in there and be fine.

1:12:12- Try Docker.

1:12:13You've got a modern enough Mac that you can run Docker.

1:12:15- I know I should know about Docker.

1:12:17I know nothing about Docker.

1:12:18I know the general high-level concept of what it is.

1:12:22I've never seen it, never used it,

1:12:24no idea how it works, but anyway.

1:12:27- You should try it before you go the full VM route.

1:12:29- And in the meantime, you should compile everything

1:12:31from source and install in user local like I do.

1:12:34- Well, and I did actually, I eventually moved

1:12:37to the full Homebrew setup.

1:12:40Took me a while to realize that Homebrew installs

1:12:41its own version of Apache.

1:12:43But it did finally do that, but it was so much messing around

1:12:48and so much crap, and I know that future OS updates

1:12:51will probably break it.

1:12:52- Never touch the system files.

1:12:54You can only mess in user local.

1:12:56Do not touch anything else.

1:12:57Pretend it doesn't exist.

1:12:59- Yeah, and I did eventually move to that system,

1:13:00but my point is, that is not that different

1:13:03from what if on this hypothetical, you know,

1:13:07next generation Mac OS lockdown mode,

1:13:10which would be the only mode,

1:13:12what if in this OS, developer mode existed,

1:13:15which I think, again, I do think that developer mode

1:13:17needs to exist, where you can just compile stuff,

1:13:20or you can run open source software

1:13:22that is compiled from source

1:13:23through package managers or whatever else.

1:13:25Somehow you can run open source stuff,

1:13:26you can build it yourself and just run it,

1:13:28and somehow there needs to be a way to distribute software

1:13:33out of the app store with developer ID, gatekeeper,

1:13:35whatever, so given those two exceptions,

1:13:39suppose developer mode is rooted in such a way

1:13:42that you basically get your own version of user local

1:13:45in this little virtualized environment

1:13:46within your home directory.

1:13:48That's not that different from what we have now,

1:13:50and that's totally fine.

1:13:51We could totally work with that.

1:13:52It would be fine.

1:13:54As long as there's still a way to have a terminal

1:13:57and a way to compile software you get from other places,

1:14:00all of these workflows don't break.

1:14:02Just the file paths might change slightly.

1:14:04That's it.

1:14:05- Yeah, it could be done well, like,

1:14:07so that you don't feel constrained, in case you like,

1:14:10so you don't feel like you're suddenly trapped,

1:14:11because it would just be a matter of coming onto the machine

1:14:13and flipping a few switches and you'd be like,

1:14:14"Ah, back to normal."

1:14:15But really, the ultimate cure for this is the same thing

1:14:19that solved the exact same situation and the change

1:14:21from classic Mac OS to OS X, which was a big increase

1:14:26simplicity and downgrade in customizability with the elimination of

1:14:30whole categories of interfaces and ways of working and lots of third-party

1:14:35things being replaced by first-party things that could not be enhanced or

1:14:40replaced in a supported manner. The solution is, guess what, there is no more

1:14:45classic Mac OS. So, nah. Like, that was the solution. It's like, well, you

1:14:49know, go use Windows or Linux or this is the future of the Mac. Like, I don't

1:14:53envision the Mac described in this this comment here existing alongside the

1:14:59other Macs for any appreciable amount of time there would be a transition and

1:15:03you're either you're on board or you're not and you know like take it like

1:15:06that's exactly how it would have to work and especially if they go there by

1:15:09increments but again if you could blink and you know open your eyes and this

1:15:12thing was here they wouldn't keep them both around the old thing would go away

1:15:15so that would basically solve the problem for you and hopefully like I

1:15:18said you wouldn't feel construing. Well maybe Tim Cook would keep selling the

1:15:20thing for 10 more years after it.

1:15:22Yeah. Well, you know, the software, they're a little bit better about that. They do upgrade

1:15:26it, but like that you wouldn't in the same way I, you know, initially a lot of classic Mac users

1:15:32felt constrained in OS X because it was very young and slow and it was missing a lot of things.

1:15:35It was simpler. And in some respects, I still feel constrained by some of the interface things

1:15:40in OS X, but you get used to it and eventually it becomes the new normal and you accept that

1:15:45it comes with many other benefits. So I would imagine that this type of Mac

1:15:49would be power level to you if not immediately then in short order as again as long as they

1:15:54didn't screw it up because i feel like one of the ways that apple especially today's apple could

1:15:58massively screw this up is by going too far and cutting off all these other avenues because

1:16:03if the mac can't support that type of user like why bother having the mac now i'm saying that's

1:16:08the only reason for the max existence but it's like then what are you even doing you're just

1:16:12you're squeezing the mac from both sides until it so it's basically like a really weird ios because

1:16:18because presumably iOS would still be advancing.

1:16:20So it's like this really weird iOS version

1:16:21that can't do the things that a Mac used to do,

1:16:24but isn't as simple as iOS,

1:16:25and they put all these resources into morphing the Mac

1:16:28into this thing, and it's like, what's the point?

1:16:30At that point, you have to concede

1:16:32that Microsoft had the right approach,

1:16:33and that you've just been wasting your time

1:16:34with this dual OS strategy as you shave one of your OSes

1:16:37from both sides until all that's left

1:16:39is this little skinny spindle that just topples over.

1:16:41- Well, and if they did this, again, like I said earlier,

1:16:45We haven't had a major OS transition in a while from Apple,

1:16:49not since '99 or whenever it was.

1:16:51John, I'm sure, has some idea of when that was.

1:16:54- 2001 was 10.1?

1:16:55- There you go. - Or 10.0?

1:16:56- Yeah. - That's my guess.

1:16:58- Yeah, so we haven't had a transition since then.

1:17:01In the Windows world, they have them a little more often,

1:17:04but it still doesn't come that often.

1:17:05And when you have a major OS transition like that,

1:17:09one of the luxuries of this, I mean, it's painful,

1:17:13no question, it's painful.

1:17:14it's time consuming, for a while there's a transition period

1:17:18that just sucks for everybody.

1:17:20However, it is an opportunity to modernize app frameworks,

1:17:25to add new capabilities, to do things,

1:17:29to basically take the opportunity that you have,

1:17:33that you're kind of forcing app makers to do something new,

1:17:36to do a major update or to even do a rewrite,

1:17:41to take the opportunity to make it better for everybody.

1:17:44So for instance, some of the things they could do

1:17:46with the Mac if they did this,

1:17:48and if they presumably broke a lot of old apps,

1:17:50they could finally make a more unified UI framework for one.

1:17:55Like make UI kit for the Mac,

1:17:58and I don't mean make everything

1:17:59look like navigation controllers

1:18:00and make it all function the same way in the UI,

1:18:02but there's some of the simple low-hanging fruit,

1:18:04like unify the way table views load their data,

1:18:09and make it so we don't have NSColor and UIColor anymore,

1:18:12and stuff like that.

1:18:13There's a lot of stuff they could do

1:18:14to unify those two frameworks.

1:18:16They could do things like, as I mentioned previously,

1:18:18cellular Macs, because they could implement

1:18:21better control over networking and do all this stuff.

1:18:24Like, it would give them the opportunity to,

1:18:29it would force us to live for a while

1:18:32with incompatible software, with oh, well we can't do this

1:18:35in the new OS yet because this app hasn't updated

1:18:38or whatever, we have to drag along Microsoft and Adobe

1:18:40or whatever else.

1:18:41But then when we got there, it could be so much better

1:18:44because app makers have been forced to update.

1:18:46Right now, the Mac software ecosystem is,

1:18:48you know, there are some bright spots,

1:18:51but a lot of it's just a graveyard,

1:18:52because most people who make Mac apps,

1:18:55it's a low priority for them,

1:18:57because they can keep making the same old app

1:18:59over and over again, and it's fine,

1:19:01and they can focus their efforts on iOS and stuff.

1:19:03If the Mac changes, yes, some of them will get lost,

1:19:08but the ones that wanna stay on the Mac

1:19:09will have to put effort into it.

1:19:11and that will make their apps better,

1:19:12that will make it better for all of us.

1:19:13So like, there would be a substantial silver lining,

1:19:17not to mention all the benefits of the OS itself,

1:19:20as I said, of things like the better security,

1:19:23the better sandboxing of the apps,

1:19:24like not having their crap go all over the system.

1:19:27This could be really good on a number of ways

1:19:30if something like this were to happen.

1:19:32It would definitely be painful,

1:19:34and some stuff that you could do now on Mac OS,

1:19:37you'd never be able to do on this.

1:19:39but look at, trying to get back together,

1:19:42look at how many people do everything they need to do

1:19:46on phones and iPads.

1:19:48This can do more than that.

1:19:51Everyone who says they can't do stuff on iOS,

1:19:54sometimes it's because of a capability that iOS

1:19:56just will never be able to do because of its security model,

1:19:59but sometimes it's just because it doesn't have

1:20:00a very good multi-tasking model

1:20:01or a very good file system model

1:20:03or things that this would actually have.

1:20:06So I think it would be a painful transition

1:20:10to go to something like this,

1:20:12but it wouldn't be impossible.

1:20:14We would all grumble, we'd all complain,

1:20:16but then we'd get on board.

1:20:18A few things wouldn't be possible anymore forever,

1:20:20and we'd deal with it, we'd find new solutions.

1:20:23Like if I couldn't use Audio Hijack anymore

1:20:26to record this phone call from Skype,

1:20:28then we'd probably either stop using Skype,

1:20:31or we could switch to one of those

1:20:33web-based podcast recorder things.

1:20:34There's already like five of those,

1:20:36and there's only gonna be more by the time

1:20:37this thing ever exists.

1:20:38So there's always workarounds, there's always things,

1:20:42time would solve any pain that would be there.

1:20:45So I think even though this is probably all wrong

1:20:49and based on this one weird post on Slashdot

1:20:52that's probably BS, this kinda sounds cool

1:20:55and if it happened, assuming it had those two exceptions,

1:20:59developer mode and developer ID distribution,

1:21:02I think that'd be really nice.

1:21:04- You have to throw cold water on this,

1:21:05we have to bring back to our old brief frame.

1:21:06Anytime we discuss anything radical happening to the Mac

1:21:09is like, yeah, but that would cost a lot of money

1:21:11and take a lot of time and resources.

1:21:12And does Apple want to put that much money

1:21:14into its legacy platform

1:21:16or however you want to describe the Mac?

1:21:18Because sales volume wise,

1:21:20you can justify almost any investment in iOS.

1:21:22Can you justify that same?

1:21:25And the iPad is along for the ride

1:21:26because even though the iPad's volume is similar to the Mac,

1:21:29guess what, it's got the same OS as the phone.

1:21:31So congratulations, you get a lot of development stuff,

1:21:33quote unquote, for free.

1:21:34but this would be a hell of an investment in the Mac.

1:21:36It would be on the scale of the classic to OS X transition,

1:21:39or at least close, maybe not that big, but it would be close.

1:21:41And it would be the biggest investment

1:21:43in the Mac software-wise in many, many, many years.

1:21:47And so I think it could, you know,

1:21:50I'm not saying it couldn't be.

1:21:51The right people pitch it.

1:21:53It could be sold within the company,

1:21:54but it would be a departure

1:21:56from the historic investment in the Mac, which has been good.

1:22:00And it's, you know, it hasn't been as high

1:22:01since the transition from OS is as, you know,

1:22:03as is appropriate or even the transition

1:22:05for CPU architecture,

1:22:06but this would be an architecture transition

1:22:09and an OS transition that is the second biggest one

1:22:11that Apple has ever done.

1:22:12And you know, we're all on board for it

1:22:16and would be ready for it,

1:22:17but I'm not entirely sure that Apple is ready

1:22:20to put that money into the Mac,

1:22:22which not that that is the most dubious thing

1:22:25about this random slash.com.

1:22:28But again, like I wouldn't characterize it

1:22:30as novel or interesting.

1:22:31characterizes it as a reiteration of the prototypical idea of a Mac merged with iOS resurfacing

1:22:39now in a new context. And the new context is the new Apple and the new state of Intel

1:22:44versus ARM and the new sales figures for iPad and all of us new people being older and wiser

1:22:51and having seen more of the tech world reconsidering the same thing.

1:22:54Well, in that case, I will put it in terms they will understand. You can sell iPad hardware

1:22:59for $1,500.

1:23:01- They already do.

1:23:02That's not including all the cases.

1:23:03(laughing)

1:23:04- Wow.

1:23:05And that's our end.

1:23:07- Thanks to our three sponsors this week,

1:23:09Betterment, Squarespace, and Setapp,

1:23:11and we will see you next week.

1:23:12- It's a lot better hardware for MacBook Pro prices.

1:23:152,600.

1:23:16- There you go.

1:23:17(upbeat music)

1:23:20♪ Now the show is over ♪

1:23:22♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

1:23:24♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

1:23:26♪ Accidental ♪

1:23:27Oh it was accidental John didn't do any research

1:23:32Marco and Casey wouldn't let him Cause it was accidental

1:23:38It was accidental And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM

1:23:45And if you're into Twitter You can follow them @C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S

1:23:54So that's Casey List, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-N-T-Marco-R-M-N-S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A

1:24:06It's accidental (it's accidental)

1:24:09They didn't mean to (accidental, accidental)

1:24:14Tech podcast so long

1:24:19So Casey, I hear you're having some car trouble.

1:24:23- Yes, indeed.

1:24:26So I brought my car in to get the oil changed.

1:24:30I don't care that you think that's preposterous.

1:24:32Don't care.

1:24:33I don't have the time to change my own oil.

1:24:35- Why is that preposterous?

1:24:36'Cause are you talking to us

1:24:38or the audience who's scolding you?

1:24:38- No, the audience.

1:24:39I'm hopefully preventing all the people--

1:24:41- No one in the audience is scolding you

1:24:42about not changing your own oil.

1:24:43- Oh, okay, you can send a tweet to @Saracusa

1:24:47about how angry you are that I'm not changing my own oil.

1:24:49- Even people who change their own oil,

1:24:51I feel like now realize that they are outliers.

1:24:54- Probably.

1:24:55So I had a coupon, I was very excited, I had a coupon,

1:24:58so my BMW oil change was supposed to be $90,

1:25:01which I understand is expensive.

1:25:03- Wait, you were getting into the dealership?

1:25:04Now it's time for me to scold you.

1:25:06- Yeah, I was going to the dealership.

1:25:08- Now you're gonna hear from them.

1:25:10- Yep, so okay, I understand I am not innocent

1:25:14and I have made mistakes, mistakes have been made.

1:25:18- I do the same thing.

1:25:20- Well, you don't get your oil changed anymore.

1:25:21- But anyway. - But I did.

1:25:22- If you're going to the dealership anyway, okay.

1:25:25But if you're going to the dealership

1:25:26to get your oil changed, no, don't do that.

1:25:28- Well, I don't trust like a Jiffy Lube

1:25:31or anything like that.

1:25:32- Oh, geez.

1:25:33You don't have a Ferrari.

1:25:34We have to go to this special little Italian person.

1:25:37- It requires synthetic.

1:25:38It doesn't matter.

1:25:39The point is-- - By the way,

1:25:40for the record, I think it might be covered

1:25:42when you have a lease.

1:25:43I'm not sure, but just for the record there.

1:25:45- If it's free, then yes, yes, by all means.

1:25:48- I believe they are.

1:25:48It was free for me when I first owned the car,

1:25:50'cause I still had some of the maintenance program left.

1:25:52- Yeah, it was like five years, right?

1:25:54- I forget, it was four, I think, it doesn't really matter.

1:25:57But anyway, so I had my $90 coupon,

1:26:00I'm all excited with myself.

1:26:02The wherewithal to ask for a loaner,

1:26:03which I was very glad for, and we'll see why in a moment.

1:26:06But here's my $90 coupon,

1:26:08I should expect to see you later today.

1:26:10I probably didn't even need to bother getting a loaner,

1:26:12I'm going to drive it the handful of miles to work,

1:26:15and then probably immediately later,

1:26:17you know, a handful of miles back, and that'll be that. I get a call as I'm out to lunch,

1:26:22and they say in so many words, "Oh, things relating to the drivetrain in the front..."

1:26:28I have an all-wheel drive BMW before you get all angry. "Things relating to the drivetrain

1:26:33in the front, like tie rods and bushings and things of that nature, and the adjustment screw

1:26:38that you use in order to do an alignment has seized, things are breaking, that'll be $1,000,

1:26:43please. Oh, and you'll get your car back tomorrow because we don't have all the parts.

1:26:46Fine. So in and of itself, okay, fine. The car has almost 70,000 miles on it, if I remember correctly.

1:26:54It is not unreasonable that things would be going wrong. But in the last year and change,

1:27:03I had a five or six thousand dollar repair of the VANOS system. I had a thousand dollar

1:27:11water pump issue that was almost last month.

1:27:15It was just barely in December.

1:27:17And now I have this $1,000 issue.

1:27:19And I think this is the universe giving me a sign

1:27:22that this car is not long for this world.

1:27:24So I'm getting some pressure from Aaron,

1:27:27and I think it's completely justified to unload the thing

1:27:30because it's just, I can't keep the damn thing on the road.

1:27:33And at first I was resisting,

1:27:35but now I'm to the point that I'm like, screw it.

1:27:37This thing is not worth my time anymore.

1:27:39I wanna get rid of it.

1:27:41Now on paper the right answer is get a brand new 3 Series, maybe an M3 if I want to spend

1:27:45too much money.

1:27:47Maintenance will be covered, at least in the beginning, it'll have a nice big fat warranty.

1:27:51Problem solved.

1:27:52Except I feel like I've been burned by BMW.

1:27:55I think new ones are, as I think we talked about recently, new ones are just unaffordable.

1:28:02And then that becomes, okay, well fine, get a pre-owned one.

1:28:04Well, I just did that.

1:28:05And yes, this hypothetical new pre-owned one would be with the CPO warranty, which goes

1:28:12to like 100,000 miles.

1:28:13And yes, that's possible.

1:28:14But even if I'm not paying out of pocket constantly for my car to be in the shop, my car's still

1:28:19in the damn shop all the time.

1:28:21And I feel like the moment a BMW gets past lease time, things start falling apart.

1:28:29And I have friends that have had similar experiences.

1:28:32I just don't want to be bothered by it.

1:28:34So I have many options in front of me.

1:28:38If you recall, my requirements, which are somewhat loose, are I don't want front-wheel

1:28:44drive, I want it to get to 60 in under six seconds.

1:28:47I don't care that that's not necessary on regular roads.

1:28:51That's what I want.

1:28:52I want three pedals, and that's mostly it.

1:28:56So what are my options?

1:28:59I'm only thinking about new right now, and then I'm going to start trying to rack my

1:29:04brain for used, because I'm not opposed to going used.

1:29:08But looking at it, I think every single one of my options has problems.

1:29:16A friend of mine actually just written in, Cadillac ATS, great call, but the infotainment

1:29:21is from everything I've ever understood, unusable.

1:29:24Just utterly unusable.

1:29:26And I don't know if it has carplay.

1:29:29I'd have to check that out.

1:29:30So that is a potential.

1:29:33If I'm willing to--

1:29:34- It's also hideous.

1:29:35- Yeah, it's too ugly to be seen in.

1:29:37Sorry, great car.

1:29:38Too ugly.

1:29:39- Fairly hideous.

1:29:40I'm not arguing.

1:29:41Fairly hideous.

1:29:42Okay, so let's just, it sounds like the brain trust has eliminated that.

1:29:46So if I'm willing to have wrong-wheel drive, Focus ST.

1:29:50The problem with that, other than it being a Ford, which in and of itself is fine, but

1:29:55It's front-wheel drive, which I don't particularly care for.

1:29:58And then the RS is also, is it the RS?

1:30:01Whatever the super hot-roddy one is.

1:30:04That one is just too 18-year-old for me.

1:30:07I'm turning 35 next month, just no way.

1:30:09The ST is a reasonable compromise, but wrong-wheel drive.

1:30:13If I'm willing to go back to Deutschland,

1:30:15I have the Volkswagen GTI, the Golf R,

1:30:17which is the thing that I think I'm most interested in,

1:30:19the A4, and the S3, which is basically a Golf R,

1:30:22but in sedan form, if I'm not mistaken.

1:30:24What?

1:30:24Come on.

1:30:26- What's what?

1:30:27What do you want to go over?

1:30:28- You listed a series of little Euro hatchbacks

1:30:29and then you lump the A4 on the S3

1:30:31and then like, oh, it's the same thing.

1:30:33- No, the A4 is wildly different.

1:30:35The S3, I thought, was basically the drivetrain

1:30:37of the Gulf R.

1:30:38I am on dating--

1:30:39- No, yeah, under the cover, sure,

1:30:40but it's a whole, like, from the outside,

1:30:42it's the difference between driving around in a rabbit

1:30:45and driving around in a regular car.

1:30:47- You're dating yourself even calling it a rabbit.

1:30:49- Here's the thing, I mean, I could rule out

1:30:51all four of these right now for you, because--

1:30:53- Oh, the A4 is a good car. - No, you can't.

1:30:54- It's a little boring, but I think Keisha should try it

1:30:56before he decides it's too boring,

1:30:57'cause it's nice looking, if it has the features he wants,

1:30:59it's reasonably nice inside and out.

1:31:01The main slam against it is that it's more boring

1:31:04than the BMWs, but I think he should test drive it.

1:31:06- Is the A4 even available in stick?

1:31:09- Yes.

1:31:10- Oh, it is?

1:31:10Okay, I didn't know, I thought it was.

1:31:11Anyway. - Yes.

1:31:12Oh no, it is.

1:31:13- All right, so the A4 is basically a three series

1:31:17that's slightly worse.

1:31:18Like, I-- - Eh, it depends

1:31:20on what you want. (laughing)

1:31:21- If you want less, if you want it smoother,

1:31:25kind of nicer, even keel experience.

1:31:27- If you want a crappier interior and higher prices,

1:31:30crappier interior, no.

1:31:32- I would disagree with you there.

1:31:33- They look nice, they don't feel nice.

1:31:35- I'm not sure I agree with you there.

1:31:38- Also, iDrive is way better than their weirdo system.

1:31:40- iDrive is light years better than MMI,

1:31:44at least as of about a year ago.

1:31:46Now, I think it might be an MMI.

1:31:47- I forget if the A4 has the updated one

1:31:48or if it's still in the old one.

1:31:49- Yeah, see, I don't know either.

1:31:51I thought it had the new hotness one, which I have yet to try.

1:31:56But the A4 supports CarPlay.

1:31:58I don't think it's wireless CarPlay, but it's CarPlay.

1:32:03The S3 is basically a Golf R, although a buddy of mine is saying it might be DSG only, which

1:32:10might eliminate it from contention.

1:32:13Then the Golf R, obviously.

1:32:15All of these are appealing because they are not front-wheel drive, but that's going back

1:32:21to Germany and I can't tell if this is a German car problem or if it's a BMW problem.

1:32:27It's a expensive car problem because every car around 60,000 miles, especially if you

1:32:32live in the Northeast, which you don't really, but if you did, like around 60 or 70,000,

1:32:36crap starts falling apart and breaking or whatever.

1:32:39The problem is that when crap falls apart and breaks on a BMW, it costs a bazillion

1:32:41dollars to fix.

1:32:43That's where your problem is.

1:32:44Any car you keep for that number of miles, you're going to have, like, if you have a

1:32:47car for 100,000 miles you have to replace the water pump it's not a surprise I

1:32:51guess nothing that happens right that's but if the water pump cost you 1,500

1:32:54bucks then you're you know you're driving BMW right that's the thing is

1:32:59that in and of itself any one of these repairs fine whatever well maybe not the

1:33:02Vanno is exploding but generally engine stuff I feel like if you had a Honda it

1:33:07would still be fine you would not need to put that much money into the engine

1:33:11the entire body would rust off the car before the engine would need any work on

1:33:14Honda. So yeah, so I could go back to Germany, Gullfar, A4, S3 apparently is definitely DSG

1:33:25only, from what I'm being told, so that's eliminated from contention. It's also really

1:33:29overpriced for what you're buying. That's probably true. I forgot to mention the GTI,

1:33:34well I think I mentioned the GTI, I've heard the Performance Pack is phenomenal, the GTI

1:33:39performance pack, however that is also wrong wheel drive. So, so far, still in contention,

1:33:45Focus ST, wrong wheel drive, GTI performance pack, wrong wheel drive, R, German, A4, German,

1:33:51a little bit boring. And then now I get into like the real slim pickins. If I'm willing to go

1:33:57extremely slowly, I could get an Accord, which I cannot option the way I want, or a Mazda 6,

1:34:03which I cannot option the way I want.

1:34:06And then if I'm willing to live inside of my car

1:34:09because I will be divorced and never get to see

1:34:11my wife or child again, I could get a Tesla.

1:34:13- Okay, so here's one of the big questions here is,

1:34:17do you want this to be a car

1:34:19that can comfortably hold your kid?

1:34:21- Sitting here now, yes.

1:34:23That's probably ruining everything,

1:34:25but yeah, we're gonna go with yes on this one.

1:34:27- Because then your only options on this list

1:34:29that can go fast are the Model S, that's it.

1:34:32- No, that's not true.

1:34:33The A4 is-- - The A4 goes plenty fast.

1:34:35- It's about the same speed as my car.

1:34:37It's a little slower, but not too much slower.

1:34:39- Don't do the A4.

1:34:40If you're gonna get-- - And the R, R's fast.

1:34:42- Otherwise I'll get the A4.

1:34:43I think you need to go to a dealer,

1:34:44and Casey needs to go to a dealer and get one of the A4.

1:34:46Now you're not buying, just go in there to look at it.

1:34:49Maybe take a test drive, poke around,

1:34:50you're not even thinking of buying, just check it out.

1:34:52'Cause I feel like Marco's anti-Audi bias is--

1:34:56- No, Audi's great. - Unwarranted.

1:34:57- Audi is great, but BMW's better.

1:34:59It's simple as that.

1:35:00Audi makes great cars.

1:35:01- Not the current ones, not the current 3 Series

1:35:03with the weirdo electric steering and the ugly outsides

1:35:05and the bazillion dollars worth of options.

1:35:08- Well, but I mean, talk about bazillion dollars

1:35:09worth of options, Audi is also the same way

1:35:11about the option pricing and the repair costs

1:35:13and everything else.

1:35:15Basically, in most of the downsides, they're the same,

1:35:18or roughly the same, and I think BMW's upsides are better,

1:35:22basically, I think Audi's are, again, they're nice cars,

1:35:25some of them are really nice cars,

1:35:27But the interior, I've always thought

1:35:30felt noticeably cheaper than BMWs.

1:35:32- I deeply disagree. - The media system

1:35:34is a major step backwards.

1:35:36- I deeply agree. - Yeah. (laughs)

1:35:39And they, I'm actually kind of surprised

1:35:42that they still offer a stick,

1:35:42'cause I think most of their cars,

1:35:43they don't even offer that as an option anymore,

1:35:45although to be fair, BMW is not that different

1:35:46in that regard.

1:35:48So basically-- - So yeah, you can get,

1:35:49you can get an A4 Premium Plus with all-wheel drive,

1:35:54and actually the only available transmission

1:35:57is the six-speed.

1:35:59- It does have CarPlay, by the way.

1:36:00I was just flipping through their website,

1:36:01they got a big screenshot of it.

1:36:02- So there you go.

1:36:03It's not wireless, but it is CarPlay, nevertheless.

1:36:06So that would, so if--

1:36:08- Wait, wait, wait, hold on, the A4, which one?

1:36:10The Premium Plus?

1:36:11- Just the plain old A4.

1:36:12I'm just swapping through the things.

1:36:13- With front-wheel drive or all-wheel drive?

1:36:15- No, all-wheel drive.

1:36:17- Oh, okay, they have that and a stick?

1:36:19- Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

1:36:19- Oh, that's a six-speed manual.

1:36:20- It's basically my car.

1:36:21I mean, it's a, well, it's a four-cylinder turbo,

1:36:23but otherwise it's basically my car,

1:36:24six speed, all wheel drive, et cetera.

1:36:26- I was nowhere that they were still making

1:36:28all wheel drive with stick.

1:36:29That's pretty good.

1:36:30- Well, and I think this is new.

1:36:31I think they just added the manual transmission option

1:36:35like this model year, even though I think the refresh

1:36:37happened months and months ago, maybe even

1:36:39the last model year. - Yeah, that's the thing

1:36:40about the time to get rid of your car.

1:36:42It's not so much whether your car is falling apart,

1:36:44is that the longer you wait, the less chance you have

1:36:46to get any car with a stick.

1:36:47- That's true. - Purely true.

1:36:48- But I mean, you would have some warning

1:36:51when that was going to happen.

1:36:52But anyway, that is in broad strokes, that is true.

1:36:55So I would say for you, I'm telling you as a friend, Casey.

1:37:00- I'm not buying a damn Tesla, Michael.

1:37:02- No, no, I'm telling you as a friend,

1:37:04this is my intervention here.

1:37:05I would rather you buy an overpriced German hatchback than--

1:37:11- Oh, not a hatchback, no.

1:37:13- I would rather you buy an overpriced German hatchback

1:37:16than to have you compromise on what's really important

1:37:19to you and to have you get an Accord or a Mazda.

1:37:22Well that's the thing, the Accord is a nice car.

1:37:25- But what about versus the A4?

1:37:27Why don't you just eliminate that one?

1:37:28I can understand what you're saying,

1:37:29like I'd rather have you get a sporty hatchback

1:37:31than a boring sedan, fine, right?

1:37:33Well I'd rather have you get a sporty hatchback

1:37:34than a sporty sedan, like the A4?

1:37:36No.

1:37:37- The A4 is fine, you know, you've driven one before, Casey,

1:37:42you know what they are.

1:37:43- Yes, but I haven't driven one of the new ones.

1:37:46The last one I drove was the pre-refresh version,

1:37:49My understanding is a lot changed with this refresh.

1:37:54- Then it's worth, it's definitely worth seeing

1:37:56because as we know, BMW has had some shortcomings

1:37:59with the new 3 Series.

1:38:00- I completely agree with you guys.

1:38:01The A4, absolutely, absolutely worth a look.

1:38:04I think the Golf R would probably be a more exciting car

1:38:08and certainly I'm pretty sure it'd be considerably quicker.

1:38:12But the A4, I think would be sufficient

1:38:15in every metric that I can think to throw at it.

1:38:19- Also expensive to repair and maintain, by the way.

1:38:21- Well, and that's the thing. - You're still shopping

1:38:22in German luxury sedans, and so,

1:38:24but especially if you got it new, you'd have a good--

1:38:27- So here's the question.

1:38:28Would you consider either new financing or leasing,

1:38:31which would then take care of the maintenance issue

1:38:33for the most part, if not entirely?

1:38:35- Yeah, see, I mean, financing, whatever, that's, whatever.

1:38:39- Lease it, do it, just lease it.

1:38:41- I don't wanna lease a car, like, I don't.

1:38:43- 'Cause then when it leases up,

1:38:44you can get a Model 3 if you're lucky.

1:38:46- Well, that's true.

1:38:47So the thing with leasing is, is that in a perfect world,

1:38:51what I want is the situation we have with Aaron's car.

1:38:55Aaron's car has been in the shop for repairs

1:38:58fewer times in the 10 years we've owned it,

1:39:00well, nine and a half at this point,

1:39:02than my car has in the last 10 months.

1:39:04- What is it?

1:39:05A boring, reliable Japanese car.

1:39:07- It's a boring, reliable Japanese car.

1:39:09- It's boring, slow, and reliable.

1:39:11You don't want that.

1:39:12That would crush your soul.

1:39:13- But I want something, it will crush my soul,

1:39:15but I want something that'll last

1:39:16more than 10 frickin' minutes.

1:39:18- You have it, it's called Aaron's car.

1:39:20- Ah.

1:39:21It's called all my Honda Accords.

1:39:23- Yes, no look, if you want to have a boring, reliable car,

1:39:27there's lots of great options.

1:39:29Pretty much everything from Honda, Toyota,

1:39:31there's lots of good options.

1:39:32- Honda's aren't boring, Toyota's boring.

1:39:33Honda is as exciting as it can be given the horsepower.

1:39:36All right, I'm not saying this is,

1:39:37this is, have you got a powerful engine in it?

1:39:39But it is.

1:39:40- Okay.

1:39:41- It's a thinking man's BMW, Raves Car and Driver.

1:39:44(laughing)

1:39:47Okay, but anyway.

1:39:49- Test drive one of those anyway.

1:39:50You won't be able to find a stick to test drive,

1:39:51but you should, well, I don't know.

1:39:53Maybe next time you visit,

1:39:54you can test drive mine and see what it's like.

1:39:56- I mean, the thought has crossed my mind

1:39:58that maybe it is worth testing it,

1:39:59'cause, oh my God, it's just, it's bananas that all,

1:40:03I mean, okay, I understand that what I'm about to say

1:40:06is a bit preposterous, but all I want is a six-speed,

1:40:10not front-wheel drive car with four doors

1:40:14that gets to 60 in less than six seconds

1:40:18that will last for more than 60,000 miles.

1:40:20Is that so much to ask?

1:40:22- How fast is this A4?

1:40:24- I think five and a half-ish, something like that.

1:40:26It's actually much quicker than one would think.

1:40:28- I mean, you can go to the S4 if you want more out of it.

1:40:31It's a lot more money though, right?

1:40:32- I certainly wouldn't be doing that new, for sure.

1:40:35- So here's the thing.

1:40:36Look, I mean, this is one of those

1:40:38project management triangle situations.

1:40:40- It is, it is.

1:40:41- For what you want, basically you have to either pick

1:40:45like fast but crappy, or like slow but nice,

1:40:50or use and expensive to maintain.

1:40:54It's like you have to pick one of these things.

1:40:57Or you raise the budget and you get divorced.

1:41:00I mean one of these things has to budge,

1:41:04or you have to be willing to tolerate something

1:41:07that you don't want to tolerate right now.

1:41:09So whether that is the shame of driving an Audi,

1:41:13or whether it's-- - It's not shameful.

1:41:15- Whether it's spending more than you wanted to spend,

1:41:18or whether it's having more high-priced maintenance

1:41:20down the road, or giving up your entire soul

1:41:23and driving an Accord.

1:41:26And I say this as somebody who bought an Accord at one time

1:41:28and enjoyed it for a couple years.

1:41:30- Opportunity costs, think about how much,

1:41:31what you could buy with the money you save

1:41:33buying the Accord and how much happier that would make you.

1:41:35- Is there anything that would make Casey happier

1:41:37than a fast car, Jon?

1:41:38Come on. - Yeah, that's the thing.

1:41:39- I understand what you're driving at, but--

1:41:42- This is Casey we're talking about.

1:41:44- How about college education for your children?

1:41:46Just saying.

1:41:47- This is not gonna make or break

1:41:48Declan's college education for 26.

1:41:50- Right, so therefore, I think basically

1:41:53you have a tough decision to make.

1:41:55Jon will push you towards the Accord.

1:41:57- I'm pushing him towards the Audi.

1:42:00I'm just saying the Accord isn't as bad

1:42:01as you make it out to be, but he wants something faster,

1:42:04so the Accord isn't it, so try the Audi.

1:42:06- Oh yeah, basically since none of the three

1:42:09of us have driven the current generation,

1:42:11apparently the newest A4.

1:42:13Yeah, I guess I've come around.

1:42:14I think you should try that because I do find

1:42:18the F generation of BMWs, the F30 generation of BMWs

1:42:22to be pretty underwhelming in a lot of ways.

1:42:24And as you mentioned, quite expensive for what you get.

1:42:27That being said, so is the Audi.

1:42:29However, I think it's certainly worth trying.

1:42:32- Well, but let's go build one.

1:42:34We can keep talking, but let's build an Audi.

1:42:36I started down that path and I got sidetracked.

1:42:37- It looks like there is currently no S4.

1:42:40Is it between update generations, 'cause I just did the A4?

1:42:44- I think that's correct.

1:42:45What color would I get?

1:42:46Let me turn off flux and blind myself.

1:42:48- I don't know what color you would get.

1:42:50- Shut up. - That would be a very--

1:42:51- God, you're such a jerk.

1:42:53- I don't know how to even consider picking a color for you.

1:42:56- You gotta get with the program.

1:42:57It's the year of the red car.

1:42:59So that's what you gotta do, right?

1:43:01- Oh, is it?

1:43:02Okay, we can go red.

1:43:03- Marco got a red car, I got a red car, come on.

1:43:06- I'm not sure how this looks in red.

1:43:07- It looks okay, but I wonder if we see what else.

1:43:10Audi historically makes a very good premium black.

1:43:13- That is a nice black, actually.

1:43:14I can't do a black car, stop, stop, I can't do a black car.

1:43:17- I mean, look, they have like four different shades of white.

1:43:20Literally, they have, let's see,

1:43:22there's Glacier White Metallic,

1:43:24there's Florit Silver, which is so light,

1:43:25it's basically matte, it's basically white,

1:43:27there's Cuvee Silver, which is kind of champagne,

1:43:30but almost white, there's Ibis White, which is another white,

1:43:34and there's Monsoon Gray, which is a pretty light gray,

1:43:36almost white.

1:43:37So maybe this actually is your brand.

1:43:39Maybe all these years talking about BMWs

1:43:41that we've been wrong all this time

1:43:43and you actually wanted a brand that has

1:43:45five different shades of white on it

1:43:46and every new car to choose from.

1:43:49- The 19 inch wheels because I'm an idiot.

1:43:51- No, no, no, you gotta pick the Sport Plus package.

1:43:53Go with 18 because the 19s don't look that much better

1:43:56than 18s and the ride will be better than 18s.

1:43:59- You're such an old man.

1:44:00- No, I'm just serious.

1:44:01- He's right.

1:44:02- What do you, it's one inch difference.

1:44:03You're not gonna be able to eyeball it.

1:44:05It's not like, you'll just have to deal with the fact

1:44:07that your wheels are smaller than mine, but it'll be fine.

1:44:09- Oh, listen to this guy.

1:44:11- But see, and here's the thing though,

1:44:12like performance-wise, you're roughly in like

1:44:15the 328 category of performance here,

1:44:17but you're spending like $45,000 at least.

1:44:21- 47,875.

1:44:22- That's the thing, like price-wise,

1:44:24I think it's pretty much the same as BMW.

1:44:27Like once you option it up the way you want it,

1:44:29you're like, they're both very expensive

1:44:32for what you're getting.

1:44:33That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.

1:44:34As you know, I often argue on the other side of this.

1:44:37But I'm just pointing out that this is not a great value

1:44:40compared to BMW, it's gonna be about the same,

1:44:42in the same ballpark.

1:44:44- Doesn't, of course it doesn't mention the zero to 60 time,

1:44:46why would it?

1:44:46I could swear I read it-- - 5.7 seconds.

1:44:48It's in the technical specification.

1:44:48- Oh there you go, I was gonna say, okay.

1:44:50I thought it was around five and a half.

1:44:51- I mean, that's good, but is that $50,000 in 2017 good?

1:44:56- Yeah, see now I'm coming back to the Golf R.

1:44:59Let's see, where is that?

1:45:03- You're too old for this car.

1:45:04- No, I'm not.

1:45:05- Like, how far?

1:45:06Yeah, you're too old for this.

1:45:07- No, I'm not.

1:45:08Our friend Brad has one, and he's not too old for it.

1:45:11Well, we're all the same age, but he's not.

1:45:13- He pulls it off.

1:45:13We wouldn't pull it off.

1:45:15- You make a good point, actually.

1:45:17(laughing)

1:45:18- He's also a lot cooler than us.

1:45:20He lives in California.

1:45:21Like, he can pull that off.

1:45:23We can't.

1:45:24(laughing)

1:45:25- You know, if you wanna go two doors,

1:45:27speaking of jamming your kid in the back,

1:45:29the Accord Coupe does 0.60 in 5.6 seconds.

1:45:32I do not want to go two door.

1:45:34Is the Volkswagen site not working for you or are my bananas?

1:45:37- Volkswagen doesn't work for me.

1:45:38- They're just gonna come out.

1:45:39Oh, stop you.

1:45:41- What about the last item on this list?

1:45:42- Which one is that?

1:45:43- The divorce option? - The Tesla?

1:45:45- Yep.

1:45:45- Yeah, it's just not.

1:45:47It's $100,000, Marco.

1:45:49I could buy two A4s.

1:45:50- What about a used Model S?

1:45:52You can get a used Model S for 50K?

1:45:55- That's where things get interesting.

1:45:57- Buy it from MKBHD, I don't think he wants it anymore.

1:45:59(laughing)

1:46:00When you talk about maintenance costs,

1:46:03I would definitely not wanna keep a Model S

1:46:06past the big battery powertrain warranty,

1:46:08but I think that's 100,000 miles.

1:46:11So if you get one that's right off lease,

1:46:13that's like 30-ish k miles,

1:46:16then it would probably need almost no work

1:46:21for the next five years,

1:46:23until you really wanted to,

1:46:25until the mileage started getting really high,

1:46:26and then you would probably trade it in

1:46:28for something else at that point.

1:46:29But because like, you know, there are used model Ss,

1:46:34there aren't a lot of them because three years ago,

1:46:36they weren't selling that many.

1:46:38So, you know, there aren't many of them to choose from,

1:46:40but they do come in, they are usually like,

1:46:42you know, you have to like call the dealer sometimes,

1:46:44like they're not usually gonna be--

1:46:45- Well no, they have a list.

1:46:46- Okay, there you go.

1:46:47- I put it in the chat, but the problem is,

1:46:49there's no 90 Ds, which is what you and Underscore have,

1:46:53and I think would be a perfectly reasonable--

1:46:55- Well, the 90 only existed for like a year and a half.

1:46:58- Okay, well there you go.

1:46:59So what you'd be looking at maybe would be the 85D,

1:47:01but all of the Ds, all the dual-motor ones

1:47:05have only existed for I think about two years or so.

1:47:08- So the problem is I would want the dual-motor

1:47:10for the acceleration,

1:47:11not because I necessarily need all-wheel drive.

1:47:13- It is better, I mean, just in general.

1:47:15The dual-motor was a substantial improvement to the car,

1:47:17so you do want that.

1:47:18- So P85D, the cheapest one they have is 80 grand.

1:47:23So I could buy--

1:47:23- That's the P model, that's the one that's new

1:47:25for like $130,000.

1:47:26- That's the cheapest, the first entry they have

1:47:29that has dual motor is the P85D for 80 grand

1:47:32with 15,000 miles.

1:47:34- That's kind of awesome.

1:47:35- What do you mean that's kind of awesome?

1:47:38That's $80,000.

1:47:38- Do you know how fast that is?

1:47:40That's the one that I test drew

1:47:42and I felt like it was getting smacked in the face

1:47:44and I said no, this is too fast.

1:47:46- I understand that.

1:47:46- It was a P85D.

1:47:47- But you're talking about, I could almost buy an A4

1:47:50and a Golf R for one of these.

1:47:53I can't justify it.

1:47:53- Or five accords.

1:47:55- Or five accords, I can't justify it, I can't.

1:47:58I'm not saying you're wrong, but--

1:47:59- There's a 70D on here for 67,000.

1:48:02- You could drive a different accord

1:48:03on every day of the week.

1:48:04(laughing)

1:48:07- Oh my god, that 70D is a hideous color though.

1:48:13- Yes it is, that weird like champagne,

1:48:15it's like you spilled some champagne into some snow slush.

1:48:20- I've seen more of the little mustache Model S's

1:48:24and they've really grown on me

1:48:25and now I like it better than the fish mouth.

1:48:26- What?

1:48:27- Get out of here.

1:48:28- They look less hideous to me now,

1:48:30but they still look weird.

1:48:31Like I'm sure I'll like,

1:48:32by the time it's time for me to renew my lease,

1:48:35I will be okay with it,

1:48:36but it's still weird right now.

1:48:38- Yeah, I mean, it's worse in white obviously, right?

1:48:41But, or in lighter colors,

1:48:42but it's turned me around having seen them.

1:48:44Now when I see one of the old ones, I go, ugh.

1:48:47I mean, I never really liked the big ball gag,

1:48:48but the pinch nose,

1:48:50the pinch nose looks better in real life

1:48:54than a dozen photos.

1:48:55- Oh man, I disagree.

1:48:56I've seen it a couple times, it is not good.

1:48:59- The point is, this is a lot to choose from already,

1:49:01and because the dual model versions have only existed

1:49:05for like a year and a half or two years,

1:49:07there's probably about to be lots of them coming in

1:49:12like in inventory over the next year.

1:49:15It is certainly worth considering heavily.

1:49:19I'm not gonna necessarily say

1:49:21that you should definitely do this,

1:49:22but it solves a lot of problems.

1:49:25- It solves a lot of problems.

1:49:27- It is faster than everything else you're looking at,

1:49:29first of all.

1:49:30It is way lower maintenance in all likelihood,

1:49:34especially the newer you go,

1:49:36once you're into the D generation,

1:49:38they iron out a lot of the early problems,

1:49:40and when you're still covered under the warranty,

1:49:42that solves everything right there.

1:49:43You pay something like, I think it's like 500 bucks a year

1:49:47for this giant, big inspection they do every year,

1:49:49but that's it, that's your entire total maintenance cost.

1:49:52Until I need to spend $20,000 to replace all the batteries because whatever one I am hypothetically buying has between 15 and 30

1:49:59Thousand miles on it. I think it's like 10 years. It's it's really far into it

1:50:03It's basically you don't really keep the car that long. That's the answer to that question

1:50:07You remember that I'm telling you that Aaron's car is nine and a half years old almost everything you're looking at

1:50:13You're all these pics. You're not gonna keep those pics for 10 years

1:50:18Like not none of them you're gonna you're you will you will own none of those when they are 10 years old

1:50:22Some of the accord obviously you will own none of those when they're 8 years old

1:50:25How old how old is your car now like six or something? It's not even that old, right? It was

1:50:30Delivered to the original owner in December of 2010 if I remember right? Yeah, so it's six

1:50:36Mm-hmm, and it's already so expensive to maintain that you're trying to get rid of it

1:50:39Yeah, but that's because I didn't buy a boring Japanese car. That's the problem, right?

1:50:43And so my point is, you're gonna have high maintenance costs

1:50:46on all of the cars in this list.

1:50:48Any car that you're gonna be happy driving,

1:50:50that's not gonna crush your soul and ruin you as a person,

1:50:52you are going to have high maintenance costs

1:50:54if you wanna keep it past year like six or seven, basically.

1:50:58It's probably about as far as you can go

1:51:00without things getting a little too crazy.

1:51:02You're gonna have to pay a lot for every car.

1:51:05None of them are particularly good investments or values.

1:51:09No matter how you own a car, you're gonna pay a lot.

1:51:12Because you want a fast car, you're gonna pay more.

1:51:17Simple as that, no matter how you slice it,

1:51:19no matter how you arrange it,

1:51:20no matter whether you buy new or used or lease,

1:51:22whether you get bitten by bad maintenance luck

1:51:25like you did with this one or whether you don't,

1:51:27no matter what, there is no way

1:51:30to continuously drive fast cars

1:51:34without spending a ton of money on them.

1:51:37This is a place you have chosen to spend your money.

1:51:41You are an adult, you are a good person,

1:51:44you make a decent living, you can do that.

1:51:46It's totally fine.

1:51:47You don't indulge yourself in very many other things.

1:51:50This is what you do.

1:51:52It's okay.

1:51:53- This is the sound of the devil

1:51:54that's on Marco's shoulder all the time.

1:51:55- I know, right?

1:51:56You are the best worst influence.

1:51:58- It's on both of his shoulders,

1:51:59he doesn't have an angel in one,

1:52:00it's just two little devils saying this to Marco constantly.

1:52:02- Yeah, you are the best worst influence in the world.

1:52:05- Like, this matters a lot to you.

1:52:08You get a lot of joy out of this.

1:52:10You take a lot of your life happiness

1:52:12from driving a nice fast car.

1:52:15- Which actually maybe makes me wonder

1:52:17if my priorities are screwed up,

1:52:19but I understand what you're saying.

1:52:19- No, look, everyone has something like this, you know?

1:52:22Be happy that yours is something

1:52:24relatively harmless like this and not like drugs.

1:52:26A lot of people's devices are way worse than this.

1:52:30- Drugs are Mac Pros.

1:52:31(laughing)

1:52:34I mean, on the plus side,

1:52:36I don't like expensive watches, yet.

1:52:38- Yeah, exactly.

1:52:39That's way worse.

1:52:40- Seriously, it could be so much worse.

1:52:42Just look at Marco.

1:52:42- Exactly.

1:52:44It could be way worse.

1:52:45So what I'm saying basically is like--

1:52:46- Or look at Sam Penns for crying out loud.

1:52:48(laughing)

1:52:49- So basically what I'm saying is,

1:52:51don't feel guilty that you like nice fast cars,

1:52:56and don't try to talk yourself down

1:52:58from what you really want.

1:53:00Because a car, it's a long-term choice.

1:53:03You have to make this decision,

1:53:04and you have to be driving whatever you pick.

1:53:06That's gonna be your car for the next at least few years.

1:53:09And so it matters a lot.

1:53:11You shouldn't talk yourself down

1:53:13out of like, you know, Casey's self-doubt.

1:53:17Like, let your friends encourage you, at least this one,

1:53:21don't listen to that one talking about something

1:53:23foreign Japanese, listen to this friend encourage you.

1:53:26- Tell them to go test drive an A4,

1:53:27that's what I tell them to do.

1:53:28- I think that's fair, I think test driving an A4

1:53:30is reasonable, I think if I were a betting man

1:53:32I'd probably get the Gullfar,

1:53:34because it's the least amount of compromise all in all.

1:53:37Basically the only thing I'm compromising on

1:53:39is I don't really want a hatchback,

1:53:41although there is some convenience that comes from it.

1:53:43- That's a big thing.

1:53:44- But-- - Interior quality's

1:53:47gonna be worse than the A4 by a lot.

1:53:49- I don't think it'll be a lot.

1:53:50Now, I have not sat in a Golf in a long time,

1:53:54but people that are friends of mine

1:53:56that are also car nuts swear by Volkswagen interiors

1:54:01and by proxy Audi as well.

1:54:03I happen to like BMW interiors.

1:54:05I happen to like the way BMWs think

1:54:07because I think the same way.

1:54:09And I'm trying to figure out what a specific thing

1:54:14I can cite, I don't have any off the top of my head.

1:54:16But iDrive has always made sense to me, stuff like that.

1:54:20But everything I've understood is that

1:54:23Volkswagen gets interiors right.

1:54:25You can debate the exteriors, you can debate a lot of things.

1:54:27You can debate whether or not they make diesels

1:54:29that get more than four miles a gallon.

1:54:32But they do interiors right, from what I'm told.

1:54:36And I mean, I think the plan is,

1:54:38if I'm really serious about this, which I think I am,

1:54:40the plan is first to get Erin a car

1:54:42because she needs one worse and she's next in line.

1:54:46But after that, test drive a Golf R, test drive an A4,

1:54:50and that's probably the entire,

1:54:51may I probably test drive a Focus ST just to see?

1:54:55But it's probably one of these.

1:54:57- So may I suggest an alternative?

1:54:59So you are prepared to spend probably $50,000

1:55:05$10,000 on a nice a4

1:55:07potentially yes potentially okay, the a4 is

1:55:11Pretty much what you have now

1:55:15It's moving you to the the newest version of what you're already driving with a different shape logo on the front

1:55:21It is it is not an upgrade. It is not probably a downgrade in any meaningful way slightly

1:55:27It's gonna be a little bit slower if that's where I end up. Okay, so we actually getting slower. Okay, right

1:55:31Okay, you're losing a couple cylinders, etc. Okay

1:55:34That's about $50,000 to do that

1:55:36For 55 you could have a brand new fully loaded m2

1:55:42stop

1:55:44Stop with that noise the problem is the waiting list for an m2 is the waiting list for an m2 is like two years

1:55:49My car will be exploded by then think at the m235i close enough

1:55:53Look the BMWs are really nice cars when you don't have to pay to maintain them. Well, that's true

1:55:58Like doing is punting my problem down the road. I'm kicking the yeah

1:56:02- Yeah, so look, I mean, I know you.

1:56:05As much as I want you to drive a Tesla,

1:56:08I know that your left foot would fall off

1:56:11and you'd be upset.

1:56:12As much as I want you to have something nice and fast

1:56:17that is a little, nice and fast in other ways,

1:56:19like your little like, you know,

1:56:21GTI and R and Focus options, I can't let you do that.

1:56:25I just can't let you drive a hatchback.

1:56:27You're too old for that.

1:56:28That's, you're done with that.

1:56:30- I realize all of Europe, any age group,

1:56:33drives a hatchback. - It's different.

1:56:33Europe is different, California is different.

1:56:36We live here on the East Coast,

1:56:37and we are boring geeks in our 30s.

1:56:39You can't drive a hatchback.

1:56:40- I can drive a hatchback. - You have a kid,

1:56:41for Christ's sake, you can't, no.

1:56:43(laughing)

1:56:43All right, so that's out.

1:56:45The A4 is a great car, I'm sure.

1:56:49It doesn't, does it not have a six cylinder option anymore?

1:56:53Is that not a thing? - No, it does not.

1:56:55- Okay, maybe when the S4 comes back, presumably.

1:56:57- Probably is. - But that would then be

1:56:59more money than this, I bet.

1:57:00What you really want, deep down in your heart,

1:57:05what you really want is a six-speed rear-wheel drive BMW.

1:57:10And--

1:57:12- It's, well, I want it until the moment

1:57:14that the warranty runs out,

1:57:16and then I need to get something different again.

1:57:18- If only there is a way to have a car

1:57:21where you're always under warranty.

1:57:22- Stop, stop.

1:57:23(laughing)

1:57:24God, the white M2 is hideous.

1:57:26- You get the blue one, right?

1:57:28I think you'd have to get the blue one.

1:57:29- Oh, absolutely.

1:57:30You absolutely get long beach blue.

1:57:30- When I priced yours out here just now,

1:57:32I picked the blue one for you.

1:57:34'Cause I also, surprisingly,

1:57:36I also think the white is hideous.

1:57:37And I think black is a little bit boring for that car.

1:57:40So yeah, I think blue is the only option for that car.

1:57:43You could also do the M240i,

1:57:45which is very good in itself.

1:57:47- I've driven the M235, a friend at work has one,

1:57:50and it was phenomenal.

1:57:53- Rear wheel drive M240i is only 46.

1:57:57It's like 10,000 less.

1:57:59That is interesting.

1:58:00- That's actually a pretty good compromise

1:58:02if I don't mind never being able to put Declan in the car.

1:58:05- I mean, you could.

1:58:06It's a two-door. - Yeah, sure.

1:58:07- It would suck, you could, but you wouldn't want this

1:58:10if you were gonna do that a lot.

1:58:12But really, what you would be happiest with

1:58:16is probably something like this.

1:58:18It's probably not settling for a Volkswagen group

1:58:21made hatchback, and the A4 would be fine,

1:58:25except it's pretty much a sideways step.

1:58:27It's, you're getting what you already had

1:58:30and actually slightly slower

1:58:32'cause you're losing a couple cylinders.

1:58:33BMW makes good cars that you like a lot.

1:58:36They just suck to maintain.

1:58:37- You know, the thing that pisses me off,

1:58:40so I just priced my M2 and I came up with 55, 202.

1:58:44But the thing that really pisses me off about it

1:58:45in the summary page, it says you're M2 coupe

1:58:47and there's a panoramic view that you can,

1:58:50well, a quasi-panoramic view of the car

1:58:52and man, does it look good.

1:58:53But right under that, estimated lease $829,

1:58:56MSRP is billed 55,202.

1:58:58The next item on the list, 060, 4.1 seconds.

1:59:03Like, you get me, BMW.

1:59:04You really get me. - Yes.

1:59:06- Ugh, I can't do another BMW.

1:59:09I'm so angry about it right now.

1:59:10I just can't.

1:59:12I'm over it.

1:59:12- Wait, cool off, run some numbers,

1:59:15and consider all your options, really.

1:59:17Like, don't rule anything out

1:59:19unless it wouldn't make you happy to drive.

1:59:22Then rule it out.

1:59:23So goodbye Accord, goodbye Mazda, sorry.

1:59:26- Truth.

1:59:27I'm not sure the A4 would make me terribly happy,

1:59:29but it's worth a shot.

1:59:30- Right, exactly!

1:59:31You're actually getting slower than your current car.

1:59:34That's what I'm saying.

1:59:35During the good days,

1:59:39when you've been owning your wonderful white BMW,

1:59:42during these good days, were you ever thinking

1:59:44that your next car would be slower?

1:59:47- Oh, certainly not.

1:59:48- Right, exactly!

1:59:49You were thinking, "Man, this is a great car,

1:59:51"and my next one's gonna be even faster."

1:59:53You were thinking about getting an M3 next.

1:59:54And I totally agree with you

1:59:56that the current M3 is ridiculously expensive

1:59:59and is probably not the right move.

2:00:01But, and also it sounds just disgusting.

2:00:04(laughs)

2:00:06There's now finally enough of them in the world

2:00:08that I'm starting to see and hear more of them in real life.

2:00:11My goodness, is that a hideous sounding car.

2:00:14But the M2 isn't.

2:00:15The M2 sounds nice and is kind of like

2:00:17what the M3 should be but isn't.

2:00:20the M2 is a good car.

2:00:22I really think that you should consider it.

2:00:25And if not the M2, then the M240,

2:00:27which is very, it's also very good.

2:00:30- I'm not gonna do that.

2:00:31I'm not gonna get a coupe.

2:00:32It's not gonna happen.

2:00:33- I mean, it's kind of like a sedan,

2:00:35just with the doors removed.

2:00:37But you're riding at sedan height,

2:00:39you're not on the floor like you are in an S2000.

2:00:42You're riding at sedan height,

2:00:43you're roughly sedan shaped,

2:00:46you have similar sedan weight distributions,

2:00:49Or say screw it and get an M3 and just be done with it

2:00:51and just never drive it near my house

2:00:53so I don't have to hear it.

2:00:54(laughing)

2:00:55- Wow, there's no way I'd get an M3.

2:00:57No frickin' way, not a chance.

2:00:59I'm pretty much telling myself I will not buy another BMW,

2:01:03if ever, at least next.

2:01:05I'm just not gonna do it.

2:01:06I can't bring myself to it.

2:01:08- Then you can get a worse car for you, that's fine, but--

2:01:11- I'm telling, what is worse about a Golf R?

2:01:13What is worse?

2:01:15the size, the refinement, the interior.

2:01:19- The only thing that's worse about the Golf

2:01:22is for people who hate hatchbacks.

2:01:24But, Carl and Casey doesn't.

2:01:26- No, I hate them, but I don't like them, too.

2:01:28- And so, that eliminates my main objection

2:01:31to the Golf is that it's a hatchback.

2:01:32Every other aspect of it,

2:01:34sounds like Casey would have fun with it.

2:01:36And he's somehow not bothered by driving around in a rabbit,

2:01:39so that's fine.

2:01:40(laughing)

2:01:40You're such a jerk.

2:01:41- No, Casey, look, you need to forgive yourself.

2:01:45Let yourself get something nice.

2:01:47- We need to forgive him for getting a hatchback.

2:01:48That's what we need to do.

2:01:49- He needs to forgive himself for getting a hatchback.

2:01:51- $40,472 for a brand new Golf R.

2:01:55- You could also, although if you do get that,

2:01:57we'll have to have like a seminar

2:01:58on how to pronounce the name of the car.

2:02:00- What are you, are you a golf person?

2:02:02What do you mean? - No, he keeps saying

2:02:03like the of Mexico, blank of Mexico.

2:02:05That's what he keeps saying,

2:02:06but that's not the name of the car.

2:02:07It's an O.

2:02:08- Aye.

2:02:09(door slams)