0:00:00Margot, you're totally right.
0:00:01Margot, you're totally right.
0:00:02Margot, you're totally right.
0:00:05Where does Apple use Core Data, John?
0:00:07I don't know.
0:00:08There's question marks after all those bullet points in the thing.
0:00:11A bunch of people emailed us and told us and I couldn't find those emails.
0:00:16So I think this is a follow-up from last week when I think Marco was saying that he didn't
0:00:22know where Apple used Core Data and this was in response to it.
0:00:24Core Data Sync in particular.
0:00:25The iCloud Core Data Sync that was such a disaster.
0:00:29Yes, not just plain old core data.
0:00:31And this is in response to the idea that Apple...
0:00:35Which API is this Apple dog food?
0:00:36And by the way, we just had someone email us and say, "What does dog fooding mean?"
0:00:39I sent him the Wikipedia link, but it just means using your own stuff.
0:00:43Like if you're making an API in this specific case, and you don't use that API yourself,
0:00:47chances are it won't be that great because you won't know the pain of using it.
0:00:49You'll just be like, "We made this API for you.
0:00:51Go use it."
0:00:52But we don't know what it's like because we don't have to use it.
0:00:54The suggestions that I think people sent us
0:00:57for Apple applications that use core data iCloud syncing
0:01:00are the Trailers app on iOS and syncing
0:01:03for keyboard shortcuts between Mac and iOS.
0:01:06Was that the only ones we sent, we got sent?
0:01:08- That's the only ones I saw, yes.
0:01:09- Yeah, and what's funny, so the Trailers app,
0:01:13you know, fine, that's how much data is that actually syncing
0:01:16between devices and yeah, that's, okay, fine.
0:01:19Keyboard shortcuts sync.
0:01:22I've actually heard many people complaining
0:01:25that their shortcuts are not syncing properly.
0:01:27So if that is using Core Data iCloud syncing,
0:01:31that is really not a good recommendation for it.
0:01:34- Yeah, I mean, if it's just two obscure apps, too,
0:01:36that kind of, you know, there's exceptions
0:01:38that prove the rule, that this is not something
0:01:39that underlies their major apps,
0:01:41unlike, for example, CloudKit,
0:01:42which they're building major applications
0:01:44like Photos and everything on top of,
0:01:45where it's like, if that doesn't work,
0:01:46people are gonna notice, whereas if the trailers app
0:01:49or even keyboard shortcuts sync doesn't work,
0:01:51maybe someone would be annoyed,
0:01:52but it's not like it's destroying their family photos.
0:01:55- Yeah, when I was, when was it?
0:01:58It was when iOS 8 was in beta, I believe.
0:02:03And I don't even think that I had upgraded
0:02:06any of my devices to the beta at this point,
0:02:09but my keyboard shortcuts sync was completely borked
0:02:14until I had everything on iOS 8 and Yosemite.
0:02:17And it was infuriating because I don't know
0:02:20if you've noticed this about me, gentlemen,
0:02:21but I tend to use emoji occasionally.
0:02:24And I have shortcuts for most of my frequently used emoji
0:02:27and I felt absolutely crippled without them.
0:02:30It was a dark, dark time.
0:02:32- I'm so sorry.
0:02:33- Me too.
0:02:34Anyway, all right.
0:02:36So we talked in episode 102,
0:02:40we talked in episode 102 about an interview
0:02:45with Andy Matuszak that was in Objective-CIO
0:02:47and Hendrik wrote in and said,
0:02:49"Man, we should really talk about it."
0:02:50So I guess we didn't really give it enough air time.
0:02:52And I think one of you guys, I guess John,
0:02:55had written a few things that we should probably
0:02:58also bring up from that interview.
0:03:00- It's just one thing.
0:03:01And maybe we did talk about,
0:03:03I vaguely remember talking about the thing,
0:03:04but I don't remember this paragraph, the highlighted bit.
0:03:07He's talking about React, but then,
0:03:09Andy used to work for Apple.
0:03:11So he talks about what it was like when he was at Apple,
0:03:15when he was there.
0:03:15He says, "One of the complaints I have
0:03:16"about my time at Apple is that because the culture
0:03:18doesn't value learning, nobody reads.
0:03:21Nobody knows what's going on in the broader community.
0:03:23People didn't know about React at all.
0:03:25And this is a talk discussing React.
0:03:28And reading that doesn't make me feel good,
0:03:31because then it's like the bad ideas I have
0:03:33about any big company, the idea that Apple's filled
0:03:36with all these super smart people making amazing products,
0:03:38but that it's sort of insular, that they're not,
0:03:42like they're interested in what they're doing,
0:03:43but not so much interested in what's going on elsewhere.
0:03:45I don't know, like this is just one person's complaint about, you know, obviously one person
0:03:50doesn't work in the whole company, they work in a small part of the company, and there's
0:03:53obviously evidence that of places where this is not the case.
0:03:56I would hold up Swift as an example.
0:03:58It's clear that the design of Swift is heavily influenced by other languages, all of which
0:04:02are being developed outside of Apple.
0:04:05So it's obviously not as completely inward looking and insular as this complaint makes
0:04:11it sound, but the idea that that could exist at all inside Apple is kind of disappointing
0:04:15to me.
0:04:16Yeah, and this is a fairly credible and relevant statement because Andy Matuszak was on UI
0:04:24Kit in, I don't know exactly what capacity, but I think a pretty high one.
0:04:28So he was right where the discussion of React would be most relevant, in UI Kit.
0:04:33That's exactly where this is important.
0:04:35He was there, and he is, as far as I'm aware, pretty well respected.
0:04:40So I wouldn't take this comment lightly.
0:04:43In fact, when I first read this, I was really surprised that it didn't get more attention.
0:04:51Because to me, it's kind of a bombshell.
0:04:53To say that because the culture doesn't value learning, nobody reads, nobody knows
0:04:59what's going on in the broader community, those are big statements to make.
0:05:02Especially from somebody like this, who I don't think he goes around throwing around
0:05:06phrases like that lightly.
0:05:07But they're also made by somebody who left, right?
0:05:10And the person left probably because they weren't getting enough of like, you know,
0:05:13there was new interesting novel things happening outside of Apple.
0:05:16And Apple, in some respects, has to be more conservative because, you know, they've got
0:05:21a big operation going on there.
0:05:22They can't just be chasing after the newest shiny thing in all sorts of directions.
0:05:27And as we've discussed on past shows, it seems like the technical resources at Apple are
0:05:32fairly overextended in terms of like, it's very hard work, there are tight deadlines,
0:05:37expected to do amazing things and put in long hours, that doesn't leave that much time left
0:05:42to be sort of reading blogs about interesting new technology that may or may not influence.
0:05:46And really, it ends up, if it's a personal interest, you read about it, but how relevant
0:05:50is it?
0:05:51Because it's like, what if you just come in one day, "Oh, I have an idea, guys!
0:05:53Let's forget about this UI kit thing.
0:05:55Let's do something that incorporates some of the ideas that I've seen elsewhere by reading
0:05:58these programming blogs and looking at other frameworks."
0:06:01They don't go, "Great, that's great!
0:06:02Let's all replace UI kit!
0:06:04Let's go do that!"
0:06:06not something that happens. So if you're just doing it on your own, like the people who
0:06:10are super interested in that I would imagine leave Apple because you're not going to get
0:06:14to do that stuff at Apple. Very few people are going to get to make that kind of radical
0:06:18decision and have it take place. And again, Swift is the example of it actually taking
0:06:22place because a very important person had, you know, an idea influenced by lots of other
0:06:30languages and managed to get it done. And even that was a fairly large effort over a
0:06:34a long period of time and that's a situation
0:06:37that's probably not going to repeat itself.
0:06:38Like say Andy really loved React and the ideas inherent,
0:06:41what could he do with those ideas at Apple
0:06:43other than leave Apple and pursue something elsewhere
0:06:45where he can use the stuff that he learned?
0:06:50- One of the things that's really tough about consulting
0:06:54is that if I do some sort of self-directed learning
0:06:58outside of work because goodness knows
0:07:01I'm not gonna have the time at work
0:07:02unless I'm quote unquote on the bench
0:07:05and not billing a client and not earning money
0:07:07and generally a waste of space.
0:07:09- Wait, did they actually use that phrase on the bench?
0:07:12- I do, I think it's a common phrase.
0:07:14That's certainly something I've always said
0:07:15which is funny 'cause I'm not much of an athlete
0:07:17and it comes from sports but whatever.
0:07:20I don't know, maybe that's bothersome to most.
0:07:21To me, that's not as bad as circle back
0:07:24and keep me in the loop
0:07:25and all the other godawful corporatisms.
0:07:27- Parking lot.
0:07:28- Parking lot, exactly.
0:07:31But anyway, so if I do some self-directed learning, let's say, I don't know, maybe I
0:07:34learn a little bit about Node for whatever reason.
0:07:37The likelihood that I'm going to be able to bring that back to the office in a direct
0:07:41way is virtually non-existent.
0:07:45Now there's a lot of ways in which I can bring it back to the office in an indirect way.
0:07:50For example, a more robust knowledge of JavaScript is going to serve me well when I'm writing
0:07:55JavaScript for a web browser.
0:07:58But the likelihood that I'm ever going to be asked to do a node project for work is
0:08:04virtually non-existent.
0:08:05And that's a bummer, and that sucks.
0:08:07And it's not that we don't learn at work, but it's hard when what you're learning is
0:08:12so far removed from what you're doing day to day.
0:08:16And I could make, and I think John was making, a pretty solid argument that React, while
0:08:20yes, it's all a UI, but the mechanisms are so far removed from what Apple does in UI
0:08:25How do you really apply that if you're a UI kit engineer?
0:08:29And all this is kind of so discontent and agitation like boy if you're really turned on by these exciting
0:08:36developments that are happening elsewhere and then you go back to work and realize I
0:08:40Can't like forget about it direct application of the knowledge like I could do I get to write node
0:08:44But like I can't even incorporate these ideas into my work
0:08:47To the degree that I think I should be able to like we get some idea some ideas are small and like yes
0:08:52I can apply them to what I'm actually doing in this new UI kit framework
0:08:54But some ideas are large and it's like this idea only makes sense at the scale of like
0:08:58How is the API designed?
0:09:01How is what is the model of UI interaction and like the model of react is just so much different than the model of UI
0:09:06Kit, it's such a such a big idea that you know
0:09:10It's like structure not like details that how do you apply that if you're not going to say I'm gonna make some whole new
0:09:16You know UI paradigm and then that's not just not something you get to do
0:09:19Yeah
0:09:21All right, do we want to do a quick word from a friend and then we can talk about some car-related stuff?
0:09:29Our first sponsor this week is our friends once again at Cards Against Humanity
0:09:35Now last last time they sponsored us they sent John a toaster to review instead of doing a typical ad read
0:09:43I actually have no ad copy for them. They didn't give me any so
0:09:46This week they have sent John another toaster
0:09:51John what did you think of your current toaster?
0:09:53All right, no no context of this one if you want to know why the hell I'm talking about toasters listen to the last episode
0:09:59This toaster is the Panasonic nbg
0:10:02110p great names
0:10:05When I haven't listened to my old hypercritical toaster episode in a long time so but my recollection is that
0:10:14Part something that I talked about on the show was the idea that I had seen toasters that
0:10:20seem to use different technology to
0:10:23To heat the food and I was like boy. This is great
0:10:26I bet these are gonna heat up faster and heat more evenly and pretty soon all toasters will be like this
0:10:31And but when I went to go buy toasters, I looked around I didn't see any high-tech toasters
0:10:35Like maybe I was just imagining it that was just a fad in the 80s or 90s
0:10:39I just forgot about it, but all the toasters were back to the same old, you know
0:10:42Designs that I'd seen in the past. Well, this Panasonic toaster is very close to those sort of futuristic
0:10:48You know advanced toasters that I was thinking of that
0:10:51I thought all toasters would be like it has a heating element on the bottom
0:10:54It looks sort of normal
0:10:55But it's got a heating element two heating elements on the top one of which is near infrared and one of which is far infrared
0:11:01One of them someone in the chat room tell me which is which I'm assuming it's the near gives off lots of visible light
0:11:08So it's almost like the toaster has a big light inside it, but that's actually part of the heating element
0:11:12Anyway, bottom line is this thing makes toast really fast
0:11:16It was like a minute and 30 seconds faster than my big expensive toaster.
0:11:20Wow.
0:11:21And that's like double the speed, right?
0:11:23And it was fairly even.
0:11:24There's only one element on the bottom and two elements on the top.
0:11:26So if you put four slices of toast in there, it's not quite as good as having two elements heating them.
0:11:31But wow, is it definitely fast.
0:11:33Is that faster than a slot toaster at making toast?
0:11:35Because that's one of the advantages that the slot toaster people usually cite is that slot toasters apparently make toast faster.
0:11:41Maybe. I don't know. I don't have one to time it against.
0:11:43I just timed it against my other toaster.
0:11:45But in other respects this toaster is weird like you as you expect from a toaster made by Panasonic
0:11:51Which is not sort of a kitchen appliance brand at least not in this country like it's very vertical and upright
0:11:57The controls are below the door instead of to the side
0:12:00So it's like saving horizontal counter space the cord comes out of the front right corner of the toaster
0:12:04I don't understand this design. Maybe it's meant to be tucked into something, but I don't think you're supposed to put it
0:12:10You know have walls close to it. It's it's very confusing
0:12:14um, and like it's got a power button on it. Have you ever seen a toaster with a power button? Not
0:12:19like a power button to turn on to toast food, but a power button as in now the toaster is on,
0:12:23now you can use the controls that are on the toaster. Like it, you know, it's on and off.
0:12:28And so you need either, you either need to remember to turn it off or maybe you don't
0:12:32remember to turn it on. I don't know. It was like, it does it have parasitic power loss?
0:12:35If you don't turn the power off, it's very strange. And the controls in the front,
0:12:38this is big on having presets where it's like, instead of, it does have controls for temperature
0:12:43and controls for time, all of which are digital, and the temperature settings are like five
0:12:47or six little different settings that you can set and you don't have to do each time.
0:12:50But it also has buttons for various types of food. And if I had to guess what these,
0:12:56you know, what kind of buttons you would have on a toaster, there are six of them, I would
0:12:59not have guessed. The first one is toast. Fine, I guessed that one. Second one is waffle.
0:13:04Frozen waffle. Yeah, Eggos. The third button is a roll, and it also says reheat. So I guess
0:13:10your reheating rolls. The fourth one is frozen pizza. Fifth one is quick reheat
0:13:15and it shows a chicken leg. And the last one is hash brown and it shows frozen.
0:13:20Bread, waffle, roll, pizza, chicken, hash brown. Like I don't... these buttons confuse me.
0:13:27I feel like if they were just gone and you just had to use the normal
0:13:30controls that would be better. But anyway this is a very interesting toaster.
0:13:34I think this was the sweet home pick for the best toaster. It toast bread really
0:13:37fast, it's kind of small, you can't fit four full-size pieces of bread into it,
0:13:42the tray does slide out when you open the door, it has a lot of things to
0:13:46recommend that it's not bad but it's it's pretty darn weird. It seems like it
0:13:50might be, do you think it would be a fair pick if you had, like you do, concerns
0:13:55about counter space usage? It's very high though and like the thing is I'll give
0:14:00up, like it's just about like half an inch or an inch too narrow to put two
0:14:04slices of bread side by side in it and it's frustrating you know like if you
0:14:07try to put it says a four slice toaster but you gotta have some pretty darn
0:14:10small bread you cannot get four and it's frustrating when you get something
0:14:14that's like just a little bit like because you can fit them in there if you
0:14:17kind of wedge it and smush them together and that that just doesn't feel
0:14:21comfortable so I wouldn't sacrifice I would I would give up that extra inch of
0:14:26counter space easily just be able to fit four slices of toast in it but can't
0:14:29argue with speed super fast the bread slice count that a toaster advertises
0:14:34that can toast at once.
0:14:35It's kind of like the number of people
0:14:37that tents advertise they can sleep.
0:14:39- Sleeps four hobbits.
0:14:41- Like you basically always have to like add two.
0:14:44- Yeah.
0:14:45- John, how do you think this toaster ranks
0:14:47among the other now two that you have?
0:14:50- It's tough because it has a lot of things
0:14:52to recommend it over the previous toaster,
0:14:53but the previous toaster is just so much more normal.
0:14:56Like it's slower, but I think that the previous one
0:14:59did a better job at four slices of bread.
0:15:00It actually fit four slices.
0:15:02it seemed to heat them more evenly.
0:15:04The controls were definitely more conventional.
0:15:07I would probably pick this weird, crazy, fancy toaster
0:15:09over the previous one,
0:15:10just because at least it has some headline advantages.
0:15:13The other one is like, just does everything okay.
0:15:16I think I would, I don't know, it's a tough choice.
0:15:18I think I would probably just keep wedging the bread
0:15:22in there and just be happy that it toasts really fast.
0:15:24As opposed to the other one, which is just kind of like,
0:15:27you know, the dials and all that business,
0:15:29this one doesn't have the dial problem.
0:15:30You set the, you only have like six settings to set it,
0:15:32but once you find out which of those six settings
0:15:34works best for your bread, you don't have to change it.
0:15:36You just hit the power button, hit toast.
0:15:38I think I'd go with the fancy one,
0:15:39although I would have complaints about it all the time.
0:15:43- You?
0:15:44(laughing)
0:15:44- Unlike my fancy toaster,
0:15:46which the only complaint I have about it
0:15:47is the stupid spring in the door,
0:15:48which apparently is only on my particular unit.
0:15:51(laughing)
0:15:52- Nice.
0:15:53- All right, well, thanks a lot to Cards Against Humanity
0:15:55for sponsoring our show.
0:15:56Once again, check them out, Cards Against Humanity.
0:15:59- All right, that was, I love this.
0:16:01I love this series. - This is the best.
0:16:02This is so good.
0:16:04I hope it never stops.
0:16:05- Can all of our sponsors do stuff like this?
0:16:07- I hope so.
0:16:08All right, so a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away,
0:16:12that's a Star Wars reference, Jon.
0:16:14(laughing)
0:16:17I can't take myself seriously.
0:16:20We started a car-themed podcast called "Neutral."
0:16:25And at first everyone was like,
0:16:27yay Marco and John are back and there's that other guy and then after a few
0:16:33episodes they were like yay why are they still talking but all of a sudden like a
0:16:40Phoenix except not really at all the neutrals kind of coming back from the
0:16:45dead because here it is on our Apple themed technology show there is
0:16:52humongous talk these days that Apple might make a car I don't know about
0:16:57- I don't know about you two,
0:16:58but I'm feeling pretty darn smug right now.
0:17:00How about you guys?
0:17:01- Oh, I'm scared that they're actually gonna do it.
0:17:03(laughing)
0:17:05I really don't think they should.
0:17:06I mean, not knowing anything about
0:17:08whether any of these rumors are credible.
0:17:10I mean, to me, there's so many reasons
0:17:13why this might be a terrible idea.
0:17:15- Well, let's look at the sourcing here.
0:17:16Let's see where, you know,
0:17:18I have put a bunch of links in there.
0:17:19Who is saying that Apple is doing anything
0:17:22having to do with cars?
0:17:23- Well, 9to5Mac.
0:17:25- Right, so a 9to5Mac says something,
0:17:26They talk about who they hired.
0:17:27Hired the head of Mercedes Benz R&D.
0:17:29I think he did like the interactive,
0:17:32like the, you know, the screen type stuff
0:17:33inside Mercedes Benz and their R&D thing.
0:17:36It's like, all right, whatever.
0:17:37Like, I mean, we know they have carplay.
0:17:40That's not like a secret.
0:17:41And you hired a guy who does the carplay-ish stuff
0:17:44for Mercedes Benz, fine.
0:17:45And it's on 9to5Mac.
0:17:46It's probably credible.
0:17:47This probably happened,
0:17:48but it doesn't make us freak out too much.
0:17:50- But then the Wall Street Journal
0:17:52weighs in on the whole issue.
0:17:54- Yeah, then the Wall Street Journal posted this big thing
0:17:56that is pretty unequivocal.
0:17:58Like the Wall Street Journal is not a rumor site
0:18:00and their record, the track record for Apple is pretty good.
0:18:04They tend to get a lot of these sort of what we assume
0:18:06are controlled leaks and stuff.
0:18:08But this was like, what was the title?
0:18:10Apple gears up to challenge Tesla in electric cars.
0:18:12And it's a big long article and it's talking all about
0:18:16that they're secretly working, hundreds of employees
0:18:19are secretly working, creating an Apple branded
0:18:22electric car and that lots of important people
0:18:25on the project and it was started a year ago and they've got engineers from Ford working
0:18:31on it and the person who's making it was given permission to create a thousand person team
0:18:36and to poach employees for different parts of the company.
0:18:38All the same things that Apple kind of, you know, like when the iPhone was made with Forstol
0:18:42going around and snagging all the good engineers from other parts of the company saying, "Do
0:18:46you want to come work on our secret project?" or whatever.
0:18:49An Apple spokesman declined to comment.
0:18:51- Yeah, so we're not saying this is 100% slam dunk,
0:18:55but suddenly you start to notice.
0:18:58I had not been taking any of this Apple
0:18:59and make a car stuff seriously at all,
0:19:01because there are just so many reasons, like Marco said,
0:19:03for Apple to hire all these car-related people.
0:19:06They have CarPlay, that explains almost any car hire.
0:19:09- I don't know about that.
0:19:10I mean, CarPlay is really a very small move
0:19:14in the grand scheme of things.
0:19:16It's not a big initiative, as far as we can tell so far
0:19:19from what we see on the outside.
0:19:21And I should clarify, so I did,
0:19:23my app is CarPlay compatible,
0:19:25but none of what I'm saying is informed
0:19:28by any inside knowledge of that.
0:19:29I don't have any inside knowledge of that.
0:19:31So, you know, CarPlay is a very small project
0:19:36that as far as I can tell is having a very slow start.
0:19:39It's used by very few cars, it's used by very few people,
0:19:44it's used by very few apps,
0:19:45and among the cars and people and apps
0:19:48that are used with CarPlay, it usually gets mixed reviews.
0:19:53And I don't know if it's the fault of the head units
0:19:56or the controls or the software, I have no idea.
0:19:58But it seems like a pretty tiny hobby project.
0:20:02So I don't think they would be hiring allegedly hundreds
0:20:05of people making the giant secret research lab
0:20:08just to make the next version of CarPlay.
0:20:11I don't think that's plausible.
0:20:12- That's the information we can't confirm.
0:20:14We can confirm things more or less
0:20:16of who was hired to work at Apple.
0:20:17And those are the confirmed facts of this case
0:20:20that you can actually check on and like,
0:20:25they hired the guy from Mercedes-Benz R&D.
0:20:29Maybe they hired some guy from Ford,
0:20:31you can figure that out as well, right?
0:20:32But you can't confirm hundreds of people
0:20:34being moved from division A to division B,
0:20:36you know what I mean?
0:20:37Like that's all just kind of rumors and stuff.
0:20:39So what I'm saying is like all of the news
0:20:41about a particular executive
0:20:42or a particular hire of an important,
0:20:44if we hear about Apple hiring somebody,
0:20:46they're probably an important person.
0:20:47and those are in the ones and twos.
0:20:49And CarPlay totally explains any of those hires, right?
0:20:52What it can explain, like you said, is,
0:20:54if they really are, have hundreds or thousands of people
0:20:57off in some off-site location working on a big project,
0:21:00that doesn't seem like CarPlay in its current form.
0:21:02But it could be many other things,
0:21:04like helping to make, you know,
0:21:07design the entire interior and interface of a car
0:21:10that they don't happen to make.
0:21:11That would be a significant undertaking
0:21:12that would require lots of people
0:21:14partnering with a specific car maker.
0:21:16Oh, and by the way, mixed in with all this
0:21:18are the stories from earlier months ago
0:21:22of like Tesla's hiring away all the Apple employees
0:21:25and going in both directions.
0:21:28Tesla's hiring away Apple employees,
0:21:30which kind of makes sense to me when I read those stories.
0:21:33It's like, well, yeah,
0:21:35who wouldn't want to go work for Tesla?
0:21:36And it's kind of a shame
0:21:37because what immediately popped into my mind
0:21:39is Elon Musk walking through a garden
0:21:42with some Apple engineer and saying,
0:21:43"Do you want to sell sugar phones for the rest of your life
0:21:45You're gonna come with me and change the world.
0:21:47- Casey, that's a reference by the way.
0:21:50- Yeah, 'cause like, the shoe's on the other foot now.
0:21:52It's like, well, what's more exciting?
0:21:55Like revolutionizing the world of cars with electric cars
0:21:58or doing what Apple's doing?
0:22:00And maybe it's closer, maybe it's a toss up,
0:22:02but certainly not Apple versus Pepsi.
0:22:04But I can imagine it not being very difficult
0:22:09for Tesla to hire away Apple employees who are car nuts
0:22:12because you don't get to work on cars at Apple, right?
0:22:14Or do you?
0:22:17And then the other rumor is that Apple tried to buy Tesla.
0:22:21Again, fairly unsubstantiated.
0:22:23Some people predicting that Apple will buy Tesla.
0:22:25Some people predicting they already did try them.
0:22:27But every time you read something like that,
0:22:28it's like, yeah, yeah, it's easy to write that story.
0:22:30But there are so many things that we have had retroactively
0:22:33confirmed about Apple trying to buy companies that refused them
0:22:37or considered buying companies and didn't like--
0:22:41or like trying to buy Dropbox and not
0:22:44really buying Dropbox and they're dalliance with Tom way back in the day,
0:22:48people can remember that, like these are not, the best thing about all these
0:22:52stories is they are not entirely unplausible. These rumors, they don't, I
0:22:59don't think any of us 100% believe any of these because the evidence is not
0:23:03that are supported, but all of us get to the point where we're willing to
0:23:05entertain the thought, right? One of the reasons why I never thought Apple would
0:23:10make a TV set, which I've talked about a few times here before, is that the TV set
0:23:15business is just kind of a messy business. It's a very, very big commodity business,
0:23:23supply chain business, but not in a way that leads to a lot of profit usually, unlike the
0:23:28phone business and their computer business. And it's also not an item that is frequently
0:23:34updated and upgraded.
0:23:36Typically people buy TVs every decade or whatever.
0:23:39It's not like a every couple of years kind of thing like a phone or a computer.
0:23:43And there's not a lot of ways an Apple TV, from whatever we know today TV world to be,
0:23:51there's not really a lot of ways an Apple TV could really meaningfully differentiate
0:23:55itself from what the current little Apple TV puck box for a hundred bucks does or what
0:24:02another one could do.
0:24:04So it seems like getting into the TV set business is not only unnecessary, because they can
0:24:10get all the value they need out of just making a box, but also probably not wise.
0:24:15Because it's kind of a messy business.
0:24:18Well, talk about a messy business, how about the car business?
0:24:22I mean the car business is not only extraordinarily expensive to get started and to run, and of
0:24:28course Apple has the cash.
0:24:30if they wanted to build a car factory and design cars,
0:24:34they could.
0:24:35Whether they should and whether they would
0:24:38is a very different story,
0:24:39but certainly they have the money.
0:24:41They could afford to set this up,
0:24:43even though it is extremely expensive.
0:24:45The big problem I see with it though is that,
0:24:48like the television business,
0:24:50the car business is just really kinda messy.
0:24:53Apple doesn't really get into a lot of those
0:24:55messy businesses that often.
0:24:57- Cell phones are pretty messy.
0:24:59they were never a cell phone carrier, for instance.
0:25:02— I know, they tried to be, though.
0:25:04That was their first instinct, to say, "carriers suck.
0:25:06Can we do a phone without involving carriers?"
0:25:08And they pursued that, right?
0:25:10And they just determined, "No, you can't be.
0:25:13We need the carriers," right?
0:25:15It's the type of — I know it's not a business
0:25:19that they like to be in, but there are businesses
0:25:23that have been messy until Apple entered them
0:25:26and sort of clarified the thing.
0:25:27And when I look at this whole situation here,
0:25:31I think to myself, who is the apple of the car business?
0:25:35Either one of you two?
0:25:37- I would argue BMW, but I am hugely biased.
0:25:40- BMW, are you crazy?
0:25:42- I mean, I would say there isn't one.
0:25:44I mean, there is, I mean, just as car analogies
0:25:47are often used and frequently misused
0:25:49in tech discussions and debates,
0:25:51I think that in this massive car analogy,
0:25:55There is no equivalent. There is no fair point. I mean, I think there's a hundred percent
0:25:59There's an apple of the car business and it's Tesla
0:26:01The reason it's Tesla is not so much for anything like oh because they have a big tablet on the dashboard
0:26:06They're the apple of the car business
0:26:07No
0:26:07They're the apple of the car business because at time for Johnny I have to come out they
0:26:11Reimagined what the car could be and they took out all the crap in the car like they're even getting rid of hydraulic brakes
0:26:16It's like there's nothing go see a Tesla Model S. There's no car there
0:26:21There is no car inside that car like you look around in it and like there's a big cavernous thing
0:26:25trunk in the back and it has seats that go in it.
0:26:27And what's in the front?
0:26:28There's a big cavernous thing where you put,
0:26:29it's like, where the hell is the car?
0:26:31And in the interior, there's no, yes, like,
0:26:33and there's the massive simplification of the car.
0:26:36Like, they're talking about how many parts a car has.
0:26:37A lot of these things are like, you know,
0:26:39there's 10,000 components retired to make a car or whatever.
0:26:41Like, the number of parts in a Tesla
0:26:45compared to the number of parts
0:26:46on an internal combustion engine alone,
0:26:47let alone the entire car surrounding it,
0:26:49is just night and day.
0:26:50And so that's the type of simplification,
0:26:52not that Tesla invented the electric car.
0:26:54Like obviously, you know, this is another reason that I think they like Apple, but that type of simplification of like
0:26:59We're not just gonna make a car. We're going to
0:27:02make something that is simpler and better and you know has fewer parts and
0:27:08less things that can go wrong and different characteristics and thing and people are gonna tell us you can't because of you know
0:27:13Range problems or you know, like that
0:27:16It's not it doesn't make nice noises like internal combustion engine all these other things
0:27:20things but we're gonna do it anyway and the other part that's like Apple is you
0:27:23know Apple didn't invent the mp3 player the mobile phone or anything else
0:27:26Tesla did not have the electric car many people have made electric cars before
0:27:30them and most of them had not been that great like from the GM EV1 way back in
0:27:35the day with his lead-acid batteries all the way up through all the different
0:27:38models that are and the hybrids and the things that have gone in between and
0:27:41Tesla is you know it takes the Apple approach of sort of leading from the top
0:27:45doing whatever it takes to make a good electric car which turned out to cost
0:27:50like a hundred grand, right?
0:27:51But it's, you know, it's the first electric car
0:27:53that people actually say is a good car.
0:27:55And that's totally an Apple type of thing to do.
0:27:57And the whole way that it's made is such a difference
0:28:00from, you know, dealing with all the internal combustion
0:28:03and everything, right?
0:28:04So that makes me think that it's not impossible
0:28:08for a company to do an Apple like thing to cars.
0:28:11Tesla shows, of course, how difficult it is
0:28:13because you have to deal with, you know,
0:28:14dealer organizations making it so you can't sell your car
0:28:16in your states and all the crazy government regulations.
0:28:18and it's not guaranteed that even with all the government subsidies that Tesla's going
0:28:22to come out on top and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
0:28:25But I 100% think Tesla is the apple of cars.
0:28:28And that's kind of bad for Apple making a car because if it's already an apple of cars,
0:28:32what the hell is Apple going to do if they can't buy Tesla?
0:28:34No, no, no.
0:28:35See, here's the thing.
0:28:36I know you're wrong that Tesla is the apple of cars.
0:28:40And the reason you're wrong is because a software update actually made the Tesla faster.
0:28:44Ooh.
0:28:45Apple used to do that all the time back in the old days.
0:28:48Just kidding.
0:28:49OS X used to get faster with every release and the same hardware.
0:28:52Those were the days.
0:28:53Well, it did that by starting off being super slow and crappy.
0:28:57Tesla didn't start off with it.
0:28:58They just shaved a couple seconds here and there.
0:29:01I'm just being silly.
0:29:02Oh, and we forgot the other rumor involved with the car thing that we talked about at
0:29:05a previous show.
0:29:06It was like a minivan spotted with weird stuff on the roof and reportedly Apple self-driving
0:29:10cars and we talked about that.
0:29:11So that is very easily explained by Apple doing something like Street View, which we
0:29:14think they need.
0:29:16Is Apple interested in self-driving cars?
0:29:19That's totally an Apple-style simplification.
0:29:21You don't even need to drive the car, but I think Apple is not as interested in Google
0:29:25as Google is in that kind of basic research at this point.
0:29:28Yeah, and for whatever it's worth, the Wall Street Journal article said specifically that
0:29:33a person familiar with the project said that self-driving cars are not part of Apple's
0:29:36current plan.
0:29:38And that's also, I mean, that's for the best.
0:29:40well do you think Apple does with really complicated academic AI kind of problems? That's not really
0:29:48their strong point.
0:29:49And honestly, I think at this point, Apple's ability to make a card, no matter how many
0:29:55people they hire now, how many hundred engineers they put on it, look how long it took Tesla
0:29:59to make its first car, with the help of essentially buying lotuses and strapping its batteries
0:30:03and engines. Apple has a leg up on them in that they have a hoe-jillion dollars, and
0:30:09helps you along significantly but it takes a long time to build expertise and
0:30:14even if you can buy expertise it takes a long time to buy expertise and get it
0:30:19all working together like again I think they could do it but it would be a long
0:30:23road and if Apple decided that it wants to make a car because it believes cars
0:30:27can be simplified and can be made better or whatever the obvious move is to buy
0:30:31Tesla because they've already done so much of that work and their philosophy
0:30:36of simplification and reimagining the car as something both better and less complex than it was before.
0:30:45It's totally in line with the type of stuff that Apple does, it's just that Apple doesn't really know anything about cars at this point.
0:30:51So has there been a time in the past when Apple has taken a product that was basically fully formed and bought the company and made it their own?
0:31:00I think, like, what was it? Sound Jam became iTunes, is that right?
0:31:03That worked out well.
0:31:04That's sort of kind of what I'm talking about.
0:31:07But if they bought Tesla, don't you imagine they would keep the Tesla brand?
0:31:10Like they wouldn't make it the Apple car?
0:31:11Actually, I guess to that end, Beats is probably the obvious answer to my question.
0:31:15Right.
0:31:16I mean, they didn't even want to change the brand of the headphone maker.
0:31:19I would imagine they would keep the Tesla brand.
0:31:21Yeah, I don't know.
0:31:22So many things about this just make me really skeptical that these reports are getting the
0:31:28right big picture.
0:31:29Like you know, you can pick up bits and pieces of information here and there and you can
0:31:34say "Oh, well they hired this person who has a car background and it seems like they're
0:31:38making a big lab."
0:31:39And all this stuff, you can put together the bits and pieces but I really don't know
0:31:44if the conclusion is "Well, of course they're building a car."
0:31:48Because there's so many reasons why that is not an Apple-like business to enter.
0:31:53And not to say Apple can't change and enter new businesses, that's how progress is made,
0:31:58but this just doesn't seem like the right business to enter.
0:32:03I mean, you mess this up, people die.
0:32:07Like, it's very serious, it's very cumbersome
0:32:10of a business to enter to be in at all.
0:32:13It is extremely hyper-competitive.
0:32:16- Well, I would not call it hyper-competitive.
0:32:19I would call it, there are large barriers to entry,
0:32:22which is kind of the opposite of hyper-competitive.
0:32:25Like the fact that GM is still in business shows that,
0:32:28how competitive can it really be
0:32:30where when you go out of business,
0:32:31the government puts you back into business
0:32:33and your cars aren't really that great
0:32:34and your cars do tend to kill people sometimes,
0:32:36but it'll all work out in the end.
0:32:37There are high barriers to entry,
0:32:41but the argument that I see in a lot of places,
0:32:43like even from the GM executive,
0:32:46like you would kind of do with the TV business,
0:32:49the car business is not like a high profit business.
0:32:52It's low margin, it's difficult.
0:32:53And I always see people saying that
0:32:55whether it's about TVs or about cars,
0:32:56like, well, then why the hell are you even in this business?
0:32:58You just describe your own business
0:32:59as pretty darn crappy, right?
0:33:01But you could describe the PC market the same way.
0:33:03Oh, it's low margin, it's a race to the bottom,
0:33:05it's crappy, somehow Apple manages to make money there.
0:33:08And the phone market in similar ways.
0:33:10Apple's a big thing, kind of like Tesla at this point,
0:33:13is we find the most profitable part of the market,
0:33:15which is usually near the top,
0:33:16and we make a lot of money in that part.
0:33:18And maybe we expand down as we're able to,
0:33:20but I don't think it's impossible for Apple
0:33:24to make margins on its theoretical car
0:33:27that would make GM cry,
0:33:29because the Apple is better at,
0:33:31because personal Apple's car is gonna be way simpler
0:33:33than an internal combustion engine car.
0:33:35Apple already has some of the expertise and contacts
0:33:39to do the battery stuff.
0:33:40- They already buy a lot of lithium batteries.
0:33:42- Yeah, there is definite synergies there,
0:33:45but I don't entirely buy this story either,
0:33:47but almost every argument I've seen against it,
0:33:49and even the TV for that matter,
0:33:51Apple knows where to get LCDs from.
0:33:53Apple can stick something inside it.
0:33:54Is it a low margin business?
0:33:55Apple's TV wouldn't be low margin.
0:33:58If Apple makes a TV, it will not be like,
0:34:00"Oh, we make $2 on every TV."
0:34:01If Apple makes a car, it will not be a low margin car.
0:34:04I don't know what the margins on the Model S are,
0:34:06especially with all the government subsidies
0:34:07being factored in, but if Apple was making the Model S,
0:34:10they could make it for less money,
0:34:12just because you gotta have money to make money.
0:34:14You gotta have the deals, you gotta have the contracts.
0:34:17Apple could make the Tesla for less money
0:34:20than Tesla is making it.
0:34:21So immediately, the car has higher margins
0:34:24than it has there.
0:34:24So all those arguments, again,
0:34:26don't make, aren't as compelling to me as the idea
0:34:28of like, that Apple doesn't wanna make cars,
0:34:32'cause like, why doesn't Apple make boats?
0:34:34Why don't they make airplanes?
0:34:35Why don't they sell real estate?
0:34:36Like, they're, you know, they're a company
0:34:39that uses technology to make people's lives better,
0:34:41but at a certain point when you go into like cars,
0:34:43or constructing buildings,
0:34:45or opening medical clinics around the country,
0:34:49these are all things that Apple could do,
0:34:51but it starts to drift off of the path
0:34:54of what I picture as a business
0:34:58that Apple would want to get into.
0:34:59Just because it involves technology,
0:35:01everything involves technology at this point.
0:35:02So I have, this one Wall Street Journal story
0:35:05made me take it seriously,
0:35:06but it does not convince me that it's happening.
0:35:08- Right, 'cause I think what a few people have said
0:35:11is that they worry about Apple's focus.
0:35:15If this is true, and if they do end up making a car,
0:35:18should we be worried about the focus?
0:35:19And I think one way to look at this is,
0:35:21you've heard, I'm pretty sure Steve used to say
0:35:24I know Tim always says this, which is that Apple tends to only, or ideally, the ideal
0:35:31Apple, maybe not the actual Apple, but the ideal Apple is a company that only enters
0:35:36markets where they think they can make a really meaningful difference.
0:35:39But that doesn't help you in here, does it?
0:35:41Because don't you think they would say, "We can totally make a meaningful difference by
0:35:44changing the way everybody drives?"
0:35:45Like, this is totally a meaningful difference.
0:35:48But from the product side, we already have electric cars.
0:35:52I know, but they've never really been done right, and Tesla is being choked to death
0:35:56by the rest of the automotive industry.
0:36:00I kind of think of Tesla that way, it's like a fledgling little bird.
0:36:03We all want it to fly, but it's constantly getting beaten down.
0:36:08It's amazing that it has done as well as it can with government help and everything, but
0:36:13wouldn't we all feel terrible if Tesla just didn't make it?
0:36:15Yeah, that would be unfortunate.
0:36:17We know that they've made a good car.
0:36:19The Model S is a good car.
0:36:20I don't care, I mean, yes, it's 100 grand.
0:36:22It better be a good car, but it is a good car.
0:36:23It's like the first good electric car.
0:36:25Like the Roaster didn't even apply that.
0:36:27It has limitations and so on and so forth.
0:36:28It's like, wow, someone finally did it.
0:36:30It's nice to drive, it's attractive.
0:36:33It's got all the advantages you'd expect from an electric car.
0:36:36It's really fun.
0:36:37They did it, right?
0:36:39And now you just keep, you know,
0:36:41well, they can make a cheaper one.
0:36:42They can make a $30,000 model.
0:36:43They can make an SUV.
0:36:44You want them to just spool up
0:36:46and eventually become a real car company.
0:36:47And if they failed, if they kind of like,
0:36:49"Oh, we didn't quite make it,
0:36:49"we're filing for bankruptcy or whatever."
0:36:51Everyone would be disappointed.
0:36:53So I think that shows that we want someone to come in
0:36:56and make a significant difference in the industry.
0:36:59Whether that has to involve Apple at all, I don't know.
0:37:02I mean, if we don't wanna, like,
0:37:04Markham keeps groaning,
0:37:05'cause he doesn't like the idea of Apple making a car.
0:37:07But like, you don't think they're gonna be pulling people
0:37:09off UI kit to work on the car, you know?
0:37:11Maybe kind of for the interface, but--
0:37:13- Of course they will.
0:37:14- But not to the degree that like people got pulled off
0:37:16OS X to work on UI kit.
0:37:17Like there are no automotive engineers at Apple
0:37:19who are gonna get pulled off their current project
0:37:21to work on the car.
0:37:22Like automotive engineers are, you know,
0:37:23that's a different skill set.
0:37:24A mechanical engineering, you know,
0:37:26maybe the manufacturing people will be some crossover,
0:37:28but I feel like it wouldn't be as big
0:37:32of a focused diversion as many other things
0:37:34that Apple does do.
0:37:35So I'm not groaning quite as much about losing focus on,
0:37:39you know, 'cause I assume they would just hire new people.
0:37:42Or like I said, they would just buy Tesla.
0:37:43They come with a bunch of people
0:37:44who already know how to make cars.
0:37:46What I was really getting at with the make a meaningful difference thing, think about
0:37:52it from the buyer's perspective.
0:37:54If you are buying an Apple car, or let's say right now you're buying a Tesla because
0:37:58that's the closest thing we have to what we think this might be, the kind of thing
0:38:02we think this would be.
0:38:03Probably if you look at what's in the market today it would probably be closest to a Tesla
0:38:07than any other vehicle.
0:38:09Maybe a Leaf, but probably closer to a Tesla.
0:38:12So if you think about that as a driver,
0:38:15I mean none of us drive electric cars,
0:38:18so we don't really, maybe this is not the right,
0:38:21maybe we're not the right people to be
0:38:23speculating on this part, but is there that much
0:38:26of a difference when you're driving the car,
0:38:29when you're owning the car, whether it's electric or gas,
0:38:32so much so that an Apple car could be radically different
0:38:36to own and operate and drive than any other car?
0:38:39Like I don't think the differences are that big.
0:38:41I think they are like I don't other than the battery which is still a concern
0:38:46But Tesla has a built-in way to replace and everything like that
0:38:48The maintenance the maintenance concerns and costs and the number of things that can go wrong
0:38:53Like there's just less stuff in the damn car. It's electric motors and like once the brakes are electric - yeah
0:38:58You got to replace brake pads, but like there's no fluids. There's no like, you know, the hydraulic system
0:39:04It's just there's no oil. There's no gaskets
0:39:07It's just so much stuff that you have to deal with with car maintenance goes away.
0:39:12And so I just think that's a different experience of driving a car.
0:39:18But what can Apple bring to that that Tesla and Nissan and everybody else can't?
0:39:25That's why I think they should just buy Tesla.
0:39:27That's the problem.
0:39:29So what can Apple bring to it that the other companies can't?
0:39:31Well what they can bring to it is an assured future for Tesla if they buy it, right?
0:39:36Because if you're worried about Tesla, if they're not going to make it, if they can't
0:39:40make, you know, $100,000 cars are fine, but if they can't feel the $30,000 model, they're
0:39:44never going to be a player in the industry because you just have to come down and price
0:39:46a little bit if you're going to sell, you know, any significant number of cars.
0:39:51And if Tesla can't get that done on its own, Apple can make sure that that happens.
0:39:55Yeah, that's a pretty weak argument though.
0:39:58And obviously they would make the UI and the interface inside it much better than it is
0:40:02now.
0:40:03Hopefully, I mean, there are areas for simplification in the interior of a car that you would hope,
0:40:08I mean, maybe not today's Apple, we've all lost faith in their ability to make decent
0:40:11interfaces, but the Apple of old you would imagine could simplify the interior of the
0:40:16car in the same way that the iPad simplified the music player and the iPhone simplified
0:40:19the phone interface.
0:40:20And again, maybe you could say Tesla already did that by putting a big iPad in the dashboard,
0:40:24but I don't know.
0:40:25I don't think Apple would be bringing as much to this as they brought to obviously as they brought to phones or anything like that
0:40:32but
0:40:33Like is that the question they're asking themselves like if you know
0:40:37Tesla looks like they've already done a lot of the work so we shouldn't even bother maybe I don't know I keep coming back to
0:40:43What's in it for Apple, and I think we've been dancing around that question
0:40:47you know this entire discussion and what is it that that
0:40:52Doing a car would would serve for Apple now. Maybe it would keep your engineers entertained
0:40:58We've talked on and off about how the worst reason well
0:41:01I'm not saying it's a good reason but your engineers would kill themselves to keep your designers entertained
0:41:05Maybe whatever the case may be I mean we've talked about talent retention here and there over the years
0:41:09And you know that would theoretically retain talent
0:41:13But of course I'm also assuming that every nerd is also a car nut and that could not be further from the truth
0:41:18The only other thing I can think of is what if there's some sort of technology that Apple has invented or
0:41:24Figured out how to leverage in such a way that it lends itself
0:41:28To a vehicle rather than to a piece of electronics what I'm thinking of is you know the click wheel
0:41:34Made the iPod in many ways made the iPod the iPod Phil Schiller game well for that though click steering yeah exactly
0:41:42It's different that like so give me what's an example?
0:41:46technology hypothetical that you can imagine this being the case for so so to finish my thought just very quickly you know multi-touch
0:41:51Yeah, it wasn't new but it was leveraged differently and and there are a couple other examples
0:41:55I don't that I can't think of off the top of my head
0:41:57But what if they had some crazy new battery technology and the reason it's not in iOS devices right now or or?
0:42:04MacBooks right now is because it's just too freaking big you know maybe these batteries are
0:42:09Hugely hugely hugely efficient they can charge in 12 seconds
0:42:14But unfortunately, they're just freaking massive.
0:42:18And so the only thing that this is really good for
0:42:22is an electric vehicle.
0:42:24Granted, this is all hugely hypothetical,
0:42:26but in that case,
0:42:27maybe they would have something to contribute.
0:42:30And that seems to me to be the kind of thing
0:42:33that would make Apple say,
0:42:35"Well, maybe we should give this a shot."
0:42:37Some sort of either different and interesting application
0:42:41of an existing technology, or even better,
0:42:43some sort of brand new technology that for whatever reason they just can't shoehorn into
0:42:49a iPad or an iPhone or a MacBook Air or MacBook Pro or whatever.
0:42:53You're thinking of Mr. Fusion aren't you?
0:42:56That or a flux capacitor yeah.
0:42:57Yeah the chat room had that one yeah but that's that is perhaps the least Apple like thing
0:43:01that that we could possibly think of.
0:43:04Like Google does tries to do basic research and even they don't do this type of thing.
0:43:08There is no secret battery breakthrough technology that Apple has that only works with big batteries.
0:43:12If anyone's going to come up with that, it's going to be a university, theoretical physicist.
0:43:20First what's going to happen is the basic research is going to say that something is
0:43:23potentially possible, and then a bunch of people are going to try to do it.
0:43:26The first person to pull it off is probably not going to be ... Apple just doesn't do
0:43:29that kind of basic research.
0:43:32I don't think that's going to change about the company.
0:43:34This is not the way they work.
0:43:36What does it say?
0:43:37Google outspends them in basic R&D by some big multiple, and Google is not compared to
0:43:41to like, you know, the real basic research going on
0:43:44in the fields of science and engineering,
0:43:47Google self-driving cars are, you know,
0:43:50not a drop in the bucket compared to people
0:43:53who are trying to, spending like just years and years
0:43:55working on whatever carbon nano two battery technology
0:43:57type stuff like that, that stuff's gonna come.
0:44:00And when it's, you know, Apple always grabs the stuff
0:44:02that's just at the edge of what's possible
0:44:04and they apply their engineering
0:44:05and manufacturing expertise to bring it to existence.
0:44:07But I don't think that Apple has anything like that
0:44:10for batteries, like for something else,
0:44:13maybe they have a really good idea about the interface
0:44:16of a car, but there are a lot of limitations
0:44:18on the interface of a car because people are kind of used
0:44:20to what it is and there's government regulations
0:44:22saying how it has to be.
0:44:23- I also don't think I want Apple making the interface
0:44:27to my car because there's, I mean,
0:44:29for many of the same reasons, you know,
0:44:30we discussed early on a neutral, which nobody listened to,
0:44:34we discussed our feelings on touch screens
0:44:36versus knobs and buttons versus a combination of the two.
0:44:40And I think where we all came down is we actually don't like the Tesla approach of everything's
0:44:46on the touchscreen.
0:44:48I like knobs and buttons for all the controls that are necessary in my car for basic operations.
0:44:54Things like the ventilation controls and anything that's on the center console that's not like
0:45:00the navigation screen, I want knobs and buttons for.
0:45:03And even the navigation screen, I don't want a touchscreen because the ones I've seen and
0:45:06used have been terrible.
0:45:07I want like the wheel, the iDrive wheel that BMWs have is great.
0:45:13The Audi has a somewhat similar one.
0:45:15Toyota and Lexus have a really weird terrible pointing stick system that's just awful and
0:45:20I've seen many other hideous systems from other brands.
0:45:23But for the most part I want knobs and buttons because what you need in a car for both safety,
0:45:31especially number one safety, and also for just reduced annoyance, you need that button
0:45:37to work every time.
0:45:39You need to respond within the same amount of time every time.
0:45:43Because what you don't need to be doing in a car, and what you shouldn't be doing in
0:45:46a car, is having to check up on the state of what you think you just did to make sure
0:45:51it took, or to reissue a command that the car misinterpreted.
0:45:57And if you look at Apple's current software designs and systems and styles and just the
0:46:01standards by which they hold themselves in reality, what we get from them in practice,
0:46:07It's not that solid.
0:46:08There are parts of it that are, like the kernel is pretty good these days, but the UIs, all
0:46:14the stuff sitting on top, the services and everything, these are not...
0:46:19This requires a very different degree of reliability than what consumer software for computers
0:46:26and tablets and phones really requires.
0:46:29The things in cars need to work every time.
0:46:33If they miss just a little bit, if it's just a little bit buggy or a little bit slow or
0:46:37a little bit inconsistent, it's really annoying and potentially very unsafe.
0:46:42And so I don't think I would want Apple making that kind of software in my car, at least
0:46:46as we know them today.
0:46:47And maybe they can do that in the future, but I'd be very worried if they did it today.
0:46:50Don't you think the Apple Watch is reassuring in this regard, though?
0:46:53Because what mostly you're talking about is like what they did with the phone is they
0:46:56made it all screen because they realized that the buttons were limiting and really the number
0:47:01of interesting things you can do with the phone when it's just all screen just expand
0:47:04greatly it becomes a general purpose computing device.
0:47:06Whereas on the watch they made a slightly different decision, yeah it's all screen because
0:47:10they expect similar type of things but the little digital crown thing and the button
0:47:13on the side acknowledge that in this application it's not just about oh I can make this a general
0:47:19purpose computing device because it's so darn small.
0:47:22So other aspects like quick access and reliable use of you know like why don't I just make
0:47:27people pinch on the screen well it's a different context here they're not afraid to make it
0:47:31You know the highlight feature of their watch user interface to be a knob essentially
0:47:35I would imagine if Apple had to take on a car like what you're what you're envisioning is like boy if Apple made a car
0:47:41It would look like just a big giant iPad in the middle of the - that's essentially what Tesla did
0:47:45I would hope that if Apple did a car they would recognize that this context is also different than the mobile phone
0:47:50Context and that what's appropriate on a mobile phone making you just a giant screen
0:47:55Would also not be appropriate here, so it would have not that it would have a digital crown
0:48:00but that they would have knobs and buttons and stuff on it and they would not be entirely screen
0:48:04I expect a big screen to be featured heavily
0:48:06But I would not be surprised if an Apple designed car interior had more knobs and buttons than a Tesla one does
0:48:11All right, so let's put this in the parking lot. I couldn't even say with a straight face
0:48:17I tried so hard to get it out the straight face. Let's put this aside for a second and let's talk about something else
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0:50:48- So let's assume for the sake of conversation
0:50:50that CarPlay doesn't exist.
0:50:52- It basically doesn't.
0:50:53- Hey-o, God, the two of us are harsh today.
0:50:56- No, I'm just, it hasn't gone very far.
0:50:58Maybe it will in the future,
0:51:00but right now it really has not gone very far.
0:51:02- Yeah, and that's a fair point.
0:51:03So if we take it that CarPlay
0:51:06either doesn't exist or barely exists,
0:51:08wouldn't it make the most sense
0:51:10that all of these hires and all of this activity
0:51:13is probably about making what we call carplay today.
0:51:18I mean, that just seems the most obvious to me.
0:51:20The thought of actually constructing an automobile
0:51:23seems kind of crazy to me.
0:51:26- Yeah, partnering, like if Apple is interested in cars,
0:51:29partnering with a car manufacturer
0:51:31just to do what we talked about back in Neutrals,
0:51:33like these car makers all want to do it themselves.
0:51:36They want to be like,
0:51:36"Oh, we have our internal design group
0:51:38that does all our Ford interiors
0:51:40with the new, my Ford touch, whatever."
0:51:43They want to do it themselves as a point of pride,
0:51:45but they're terrible at it
0:51:46because they don't have much experience.
0:51:47Cars used to not be about software.
0:51:48And then seemingly overnight,
0:51:51big cars came about software.
0:51:52First, the engines were about software,
0:51:53but they were like, "Oh, it's not visible.
0:51:54"It's not user interface."
0:51:56So all of a sudden our engines
0:51:57all have 20 computers in them.
0:51:59They seem to make that transition okay.
0:52:01But when it came to make human computer interfaces
0:52:04inside the cars, they have not done well
0:52:07and they haven't been able to attract that expertise.
0:52:09So we're always looking like,
0:52:10if you could just bring someone in from the outside,
0:52:12Like let Apple do your interior,
0:52:13but no car maker wants to let some computer company
0:52:16come in and design that they want.
0:52:18It's like BMW or whatever.
0:52:19It's like, it's a point of pride.
0:52:20We make the interiors and they just keep trying
0:52:22and they refine them and they get better at them.
0:52:25But I imagine if your Apple and all the people at Apple,
0:52:29including the big fancy executives who make the decisions,
0:52:32drive super expensive cars and kind of like
0:52:34how all the executives had super expensive cell phones,
0:52:36but still thought they were all crap,
0:52:38I bet a lot of those executives of similar tastes
0:52:40drive to work in their 100, $200,000 cars
0:52:43and say, "Boy, the interior and interface of this car
0:52:45is terrible and like, this is the best car you could buy.
0:52:47Like I'm, it's not because it's a cheap car.
0:52:50Like I'm rich, I have a lot of money.
0:52:52I still have to use a crappy cell phone
0:52:54and deal with my crappy TV set
0:52:57and drive a car that I love everything about
0:52:59except for the user interface and the interior."
0:53:01Right?
0:53:02And so the channeling that frustration would be like,
0:53:06You know, can't we work with BMW, Mercedes, Porsche,
0:53:11Honda, hell anybody, will anybody let us like work
0:53:13with them at the level we wanna work with them and say,
0:53:16we own the interior user interface of your car.
0:53:18You do the engine, you do the car, you do the structure,
0:53:20you do the suspension, you do everything else,
0:53:22but we own how you turn the windshield wipers on,
0:53:24how you adjust the radio, how you call someone
0:53:26on a cell phone from your car.
0:53:27Like let us do all that for you.
0:53:29And so far, no car, if Apple has made those overtures,
0:53:33no car manufacturer has taken them up on the deal.
0:53:35And again, I don't blame them because if I was a car maker,
0:53:37I'd be like, "F you, what you're basically doing
0:53:40is cutting us out at the knees and saying,
0:53:41you're half a car maker now.
0:53:43We're the important, you know,
0:53:44please Apple come in and become the most valuable
0:53:46differentiator of our car line,
0:53:48relegating us to a mere manufacturer
0:53:50of a drive train and body shop."
0:53:53Nobody wants to do that, right?
0:53:55But I can imagine Apple wanting to do that.
0:53:57And maybe that's plan A and plan B is,
0:53:59well, can't we just buy Tesla?
0:54:00And plan C is, we'll just make our own damn car.
0:54:03And that's a hell of an extrapolation of the order of events.
0:54:07And I don't know what kind of gaps there are between plan A, B, and C,
0:54:09but plan A sounds plausible that Apple would want to be more involved in the
0:54:14interior of a car. And CarPlay is like the weakest,
0:54:18most piddling little attempt to get Apple anything inside a car.
0:54:21Yeah, that's exactly what I was driving at.
0:54:23And I come back to maybe, you know,
0:54:27when we started this conversation, one of you, I think John had asked, well,
0:54:31Who is the apple of cars?
0:54:33And maybe the better question is, who's the AT&T?
0:54:37Who is the most beleaguered?
0:54:38Who is the most desperate?
0:54:40Who is the most willing to let Apple just saunter in?
0:54:44- I think you mean singular.
0:54:45- Actually, you're right.
0:54:46I'm sorry, that's very true.
0:54:47I do mean singular.
0:54:48So who is the most desperate and most willing
0:54:51to let Apple just waltz in and kind of take over the show?
0:54:56And I don't know who that is today.
0:54:59- Alpha Romeo.
0:54:59- Oh, wait, let's try again.
0:55:01Everyone's already owned by somebody else.
0:55:04Like any beleaguered brand, like, you know,
0:55:06Tata or Fiat already bought them, so who's left?
0:55:10- I bet you see my point, right?
0:55:11I mean, who is most willing to do that?
0:55:13I think Saab before they disappeared,
0:55:16'cause Saab is dead now, right?
0:55:18- Yeah, GM bought them, right?
0:55:19And then--
0:55:20- And then spun them off, I thought,
0:55:21or just let them die, one or the other.
0:55:23- Yeah, Saab is gone.
0:55:24- So I don't, Saturn, you know?
0:55:26- No, they're gone too.
0:55:27What kind of shape is Nissan in?
0:55:30- I thought they were doing well.
0:55:31Mitsubishi was hurting last I heard.
0:55:32- Yeah, Mitsubishi, but they don't offer a good car
0:55:36to travel to put its stuff inside.
0:55:38The car is a much more important part of the entire product
0:55:43than the cell network was for the iPhone, arguably,
0:55:46even when they picked the bad cell network.
0:55:49And also, the phone always had sort of like,
0:55:51if we do well, obviously we'll expand outward.
0:55:54We won't be AT&T or singular only forever if we're successful.
0:55:56Whereas if you're successful with a car,
0:55:58what do you think every car company is gonna be like,
0:56:00"Oh yeah, totally Apple come and do R."
0:56:02Like it's not, I don't see a path forward for that.
0:56:05It's like you just,
0:56:06either you do something like CarPlay
0:56:08where you try to get buy-in from,
0:56:09and this gets, CarPlay could still work.
0:56:11Like you're not owning the interior,
0:56:13but every interior has a place where you can put your crap
0:56:16and some limited integration.
0:56:17Of course, Android's trying to do the same thing.
0:56:19Like I think the prospects for CarPlay
0:56:22are similar for the prospects of,
0:56:25you buy your TV from someone else
0:56:27and let us control some part of the interface.
0:56:29And in practice, that kind of sorta works.
0:56:31Like that's the puck device category.
0:56:33Like, well, we don't make your TV.
0:56:35We don't control the interface.
0:56:36Those menus you bring up to adjust the picture controls,
0:56:38we don't control any of that.
0:56:41We don't control your remote,
0:56:42but you can attach this box to one of your inputs
0:56:44and use our own little remote.
0:56:45And then we sort of take over your TV
0:56:47for a small period of time.
0:56:48And it's not great, but it works.
0:56:50And other people try to do it.
0:56:51So that's CarPlay, that's the Android car thing or whatever,
0:56:54But that's not gonna get us to like,
0:56:56that's not gonna resolve our dissatisfaction
0:56:58in the same way that doesn't something make us all
0:56:59love our TVs because we have seven pucks attached to them.
0:57:02- Well and also it's not a great metaphor
0:57:04because TVs are kinda just made to be taken over.
0:57:08Whereas if you wanna properly integrate into a car system
0:57:11and take over the UI, you need to be integrated
0:57:14into a lot more, it's a lot more complicated
0:57:16than just like, oh, there's a giant screen, take it over.
0:57:20Most cars have multiple displays and gauges
0:57:23and different control surfaces all over the place
0:57:25and all sorts of different things you gotta hook into
0:57:27if you really wanted to take it over.
0:57:29And over time, it's only gonna get more complicated.
0:57:32Look at what our fancy cars have.
0:57:33We have the heads-up displays,
0:57:35we have cameras in the mirror to look at stuff on the road,
0:57:38you got sensors all around the car,
0:57:39you got the navigation screen, you got media controls,
0:57:42you got navigation itself, you have all these,
0:57:45the mobile office BS, all these different things.
0:57:48And the number of systems in cars
0:57:51that are gonna be integrated into everyday models
0:57:54is gonna keep going up over time as these things get cheaper.
0:57:58So the model of what CarPlay is doing now
0:58:03is always going to be very limited
0:58:06and is really, if anything, gonna keep being relegated
0:58:09to a smaller and smaller proportion
0:58:12of the car's overall smarts and displays.
0:58:15- But like television, the car interior is under attack
0:58:18from usurpers from the outside, right?
0:58:20like automatic as an example,
0:58:22like a previous sponsor of the podcast
0:58:24lets you shove a thing into a standard port on your car
0:58:26and give it a bunch of features that it should have had
0:58:28and already if car manufacturers knew
0:58:30what the hell they were doing, but they don't, so use this.
0:58:32When we all used to have GPS's stuck inside our cars,
0:58:34when it wasn't on our phones
0:58:37and when it wasn't built into the cars,
0:58:38that was an attack from the outside.
0:58:40Hey, if car makers knew what the hell they were doing,
0:58:41every car would have GPS built in, but they don't,
0:58:43so buy this Garmin thing
0:58:44and suck your cup into your dashboard, right?
0:58:47Us, everyone connecting iPods to their stereo systems
0:58:49long before car makers got a clue.
0:58:51There is a constant assault from outside world
0:58:54of the faster moving technology sector
0:58:57to do things that sometimes it's just kind of like
0:59:00taking advantage of your car hardware,
0:59:02sometimes it's an entirely separate system like the GPS,
0:59:04but sometimes like automatic, it's like,
0:59:06help you find your car in the parking lot.
0:59:08Why can't you do that already?
0:59:09'Cause car makers have no idea what they're doing.
0:59:10Buy this thing and we'll help you do it, right?
0:59:13And I don't know, that's not,
0:59:14it's not like they're gonna win,
0:59:15like they're gonna overwhelm it from the outside
0:59:17because they can't, and Marco, you're totally right.
0:59:19like attaching a bunch of these things is like,
0:59:21it's worse than attaching pucks to IT
0:59:23'cause like the experience should be entirely integrated.
0:59:26It should know how fast your car is going,
0:59:27where you're probably going to,
0:59:29how much pressure is in the tires,
0:59:30what the current G-force being pulled is,
0:59:32whether it's okay to interrupt you with a call
0:59:34because it knows how you're like total integration.
0:59:37Like that's, you know, you ask what could Apple add
0:59:39to the car experience?
0:59:41If, you know, this is maybe the idealized Apple,
0:59:43they could add an interface that takes into account
0:59:45all those things in a way no car maker has
0:59:48Do it all without relying on a bunch of other stuff that you stick inside the car
0:59:52Yeah, I think you guys are both right the only thing that um
0:59:57That makes me doubt you is what if they were to?
1:00:01Enter into a car into work with a car manufacturer that already has a bus like I think Volkswagen for example
1:00:09And I'm not talking buses in what the Brits would call a coach. I'm saying a
1:00:13Service bus and so as an example
1:00:16I think that Volkswagen has some hilariously named and mildly inappropriate
1:00:22service bus that all of their different components talk to and I think BMW does the same thing actually and
1:00:29Presumably most modern car manufacturers do so maybe this isn't really narrowing it down at all
1:00:35But like my friend Brian had who had a Volkswagen r32
1:00:39I remember that he had done something I don't recall the specifics
1:00:43But he had done something with the Volkswagen can bus as I believe what it's called. Thank you Matt Donders in the chat
1:00:49Where he had like added a gauge or something like that whatever he did
1:00:53He did something that was possible because basically all of the cars different computers were talking to each other on one common bus
1:01:01And so if that were the case in say a Volkswagen or BMW or something like that
1:01:05then maybe they could do something more than just the
1:01:10Fairly rudimentary carplay implementation they have now maybe they could add gauges not not to say the gauges are really be all end all but
1:01:16Just as a simple example
1:01:18You know something like that is possible without presumably too much work if they can just get their selves that get themselves onto the canvas
1:01:24Yeah, but as soon as anyone does that as soon as Apple pulls into that they're gonna just lock it down
1:01:29You know because like as John said like the car manufacturers
1:01:33Kind of don't want someone else to come take over their systems and plug into their systems like they want to control the whole thing
1:01:39for lots of good reasons, like for themselves,
1:01:43for their businesses, for safety.
1:01:44Like there's so many reasons why they're not gonna let
1:01:47anyone else just plug into their bus and drive all over it.
1:01:50- It's like, well Microsoft did that with Ford, right?
1:01:53Weren't they the Ford, My Touch interior thing,
1:01:56like Microsoft partnered with them?
1:01:58- Yeah, but that was like two desperate companies.
1:01:59- Right, well the whole idea is like that it's almost as if
1:02:04it was to Ford's advantage for that interface
1:02:07to not be too good.
1:02:08Because like I said, if the reason people are buying your car is because everybody knows
1:02:12it's the car with the awesome Apple interface and like you got to check it.
1:02:15Like if that becomes the value proposition of your car, if it is the differentiator,
1:02:20you don't like people are buying your car not because of something you did.
1:02:23You are giving some portion of value and attractiveness inherent in your product and you're giving
1:02:29the most important portion of that to Apple.
1:02:31Like it's kind of like that, you know, the cell network, you know, we want the iPhone
1:02:35Network and turns out that people don't care what network it is
1:02:38They'll get AT&T if it means they get to have the iPhone the iPhone becomes the most important thing
1:02:42It's not like oh, this is gonna make people love AT&T. No it's gonna make people love the iPhone
1:02:47That is the differentiator and that's where the value is and they just want you to be a dumb pipe and now you're sad
1:02:51Well, but that's exactly what Ford did with the my Ford
1:02:55Sync or whatever was that which was Microsoft behind the scenes, and they made it clear that it was Microsoft
1:03:00That was a selling point right, but it wasn't that good and no one was buying
1:03:04Ford because of the like if all of a sudden people bought forwards because everyone knew that forwards of the cars with the great
1:03:11interfaces that like they never had that reputation that was that was never the value proposition of a Ford and if it had become one if
1:03:18It would be like I wasn't gonna buy it for but now everybody tells me like the same reason like I'm not into Apple
1:03:23But everyone tells me an iPhone is an awesome cell phone, so I'm interested and I'm gonna check it out, right I?
1:03:28Guess but I mean to take it on its flip side
1:03:31I feel like I've heard many times that say
1:03:34Cadillacs navigation interface is just atrociously bad and we talked a long time especially Marco about how awful the Lexus interface is
1:03:42So yeah, maybe you don't want it to be a selling point, but you certainly don't want it to be a liability either
1:03:46Yeah, well you're kind of right that it was you know Microsoft desperation, but Ford is actually one of the American car companies that is not
1:03:52Constantly making terrible cars and being bailed out by the government and like you know if you had to pick
1:03:57What is what is the best American car maker? I?
1:04:00Think Ford is a pretty strong case to be made sure forward in terms of both
1:04:04Financial health of the company and the quality of the vehicles they put out this there's spot exceptions
1:04:09you can see you can find exceptional cars and you know all the other makers as well, but
1:04:13Ford overall was it was not the most desperate of all companies
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1:07:19- All right, anything else on cars?
1:07:21- Yeah, one more thing, I think.
1:07:23- We have more than one more thing.
1:07:24- Well, one more major thing to bring this back down to Earth
1:07:28now that we're too busy.
1:07:29- Followed by three weeks of follow-up.
1:07:30- Too busy speculating about this.
1:07:32Let's all now assume that Apple is not going to make a car.
1:07:35But let's assume that these rumors about some large project
1:07:40at Apple involving cars in some way that is not Street View
1:07:44and that is not merely an extension of existing carplay exists.
1:07:46Because if this Wall Street Journal article, like say it gets a bunch of things wrong and
1:07:50it guesses wrong about what these people are doing, but there really is a large number
1:07:54of people, Apple's gearing up and how, like Margo said, it seems crazy that these people
1:07:59would all be working on carplay.
1:08:00So if they're not making a car, and if it's not about street view, and if it's not carplay,
1:08:05but it is car related, what the hell is it?
1:08:08I mean, honestly, I think a street view style project from those little minivans that we've
1:08:13we've already seen pictures of that, I don't know if we definitely know that they're from
1:08:17Apple, I think that's kind of vague as to what the connection is, but assume they are.
1:08:22I think that would be enough to have a big staff and a big lab.
1:08:27That might be the reason, that might be all this is, because "all this is" is actually
1:08:33to do a Street View kind of thing is a huge project.
1:08:36But why would that be in a big building?
1:08:38It's a lot of data a lot of software to write a lot of a lot of data to manage and people to manage and
1:08:43A fleet of vehicles to manage. I mean, that's that's a big job. Like there's a reason why
1:08:48Why only Google has that feature right now?
1:08:51Like I don't did anybody else ever do a street view like people in the flyover works are not nearly as good
1:08:55I don't think anyone else did Street View except them right not to my knowledge
1:09:00So the rumor is like a thousand person team like if they were doing Street View
1:09:03Which I probably think they are I would imagine this effort to be more distributed like necessarily more
1:09:08distributed. It's not as if all the cars are leaving from California and coming
1:09:11back to California. Well it is Apple. It's like all the AOL traffic going through
1:09:15Virginia. Yeah. I don't know, it just it doesn't seem to like I believe the
1:09:21street view thing 100% and I suppose that could take maybe a hundred people
1:09:25but not a thousand and I'm not sure I would hire anyone from a car company to
1:09:30lead that because that's more of a I would hire someone from like a mapping
1:09:34company or someone who you know they already has acquisitions from that you
1:09:37the keyhole or whatever company that gave them their map data.
1:09:43It doesn't fit with this rumor.
1:09:45I guess it depends on how much of the Wall Street Journal article you think they got
1:09:49correct.
1:09:50I'm willing to believe that they got everything correct except for what these people are doing.
1:09:52I'm willing to believe that the number of people is right, that their sort of general
1:09:57location is right, that the people who are leading them are correctly identified, but
1:10:02they just are guessing wrong about what these people are doing because they're not actually
1:10:05making a car, they're doing something.
1:10:07And I'm not sure what that something is.
1:10:10- I mean, the reality is, like, if you take
1:10:12these little collection of facts, assuming they're true,
1:10:16I think making a car is the most likely conclusion
1:10:19to draw from that.
1:10:21It's not what I want them to be doing,
1:10:22it's not what I think they should be doing,
1:10:24from what I know today.
1:10:25I mean, this could also, you know,
1:10:28if you said to people in 2004,
1:10:31Shappo make a phone, you'd hear from a lot of people
1:10:34who would say yes and a lot of people who would say, "Well, maybe they should just
1:10:37really focus on the computers."
1:10:41I don't know by saying, "I don't think they should really do this.
1:10:46Maybe they will blow us away."
1:10:47I don't think that's very likely, just because I think they can make a car that
1:10:52is designed very well, but I think about if you look at TVs and why—again, I know I
1:11:00said a lot of this earlier—but if you look at why they don't make a TV, I think one
1:11:03One of the reasons they don't make a TV is that TVs really have very little interface.
1:11:09Like the TV itself, like the boxes that plug into it have an interface.
1:11:13The TV itself has very little interface, really.
1:11:17You're basically making tiny adjustments sometimes, adjusting the volume maybe, and then picking
1:11:22inputs.
1:11:23That's basically what you're doing.
1:11:25Everything else now, you know, you're plugging a box and do things there.
1:11:28So TVs, Apple could not bring a whole lot to that
1:11:31because most of what a TV does is a dumb screen
1:11:34that you turn on and off and pick inputs from.
1:11:36- But they would own the whole screen.
1:11:38It's like, what can they bring to the phone?
1:11:39It's basically just a big screen.
1:11:40They own everything on the screen.
1:11:41It defines the experience.
1:11:43- But they already have that with the box.
1:11:45Anyway, so compare that to the car, to actual car usage.
1:11:50Like, this is kind of what I was getting at earlier
1:11:52when I was saying, how much can Apple bring to this?
1:11:54Like, as you're using your car,
1:11:57what parts of what you're doing in your car,
1:12:01when you're actually owning and driving a car,
1:12:03what parts of that process and that experience
1:12:07are you heavily interacting with something
1:12:09where interface quality is that important?
1:12:11I think one of the reasons why cars
1:12:13have such mediocre interfaces so often
1:12:16is because it doesn't really matter that much.
1:12:18Because for the most part,
1:12:19you're barely ever looking at the controls, I hope,
1:12:22and you're not doing that much.
1:12:24There's like 12 buttons.
1:12:26You're not doing a massive amount of things.
1:12:29You're not running freeform software
1:12:31for plenty of good reasons that probably won't change.
1:12:34There's not that much going on there.
1:12:37And many of these advances probably shouldn't happen
1:12:41for safety reasons.
1:12:42So I really doubt what value Apple
1:12:46could realistically bring to this
1:12:48that would make it worth all this trouble,
1:12:50all this hassle, all the risk, all the expense,
1:12:52all the loss of focus.
1:12:54I don't know, like, what problem are we really desperate for an Apple car to solve?
1:13:01And because look, all of us agree that cars often have, you know, pretty mediocre interfaces,
1:13:08but all of us still drive these cars with pretty mediocre interfaces.
1:13:12We all chose to buy the ones we bought for different reasons, really.
1:13:17So not only do I not think Apple could make a huge difference here, but I'm also skeptical
1:13:22to whether they would succeed much in the market because people buy cars for so many
1:13:26different reasons beyond the things Apple's good at.
1:13:30Well, I mean, Apple's good at fashion too, and people buy cars for those reasons, but
1:13:33I think your view of what Apple can bring to this is too narrow.
1:13:36It's not just about the user interface.
1:13:38Like I said, it's bringing the things that Tesla has essentially already brought to it,
1:13:40only bringing it to more people.
1:13:43The ownership and use experience of an electric car is, I think, significantly different from
1:13:47an internal combustion engine car, and it's also different from a hybrid.
1:13:51all the parts of the car that don't necessarily have to do with driving getting in and out of it that like the ownership experience the
1:13:57Maintenance experience like what the car looks like how big it can be where it can fit like all this the places you can innovate
1:14:03With an electric car where you can't innovate with internal combustion energy because you have different constraints and Tesla is doing that now and that
1:14:09That is the that's why I call them the Apple of cars like that is what they're bringing it to it
1:14:13And yes also
1:14:14Hopefully making the interior have nicer interface and having integration with your iPhone and having all this other you know
1:14:18like all the things you would expect them to do,
1:14:21but I think it's the sort of total ownership experience
1:14:25that Apple would be bringing to it.
1:14:28But like, I think we keep going back
1:14:29to what Apple is making with the car.
1:14:31And you said, if this rumor is true,
1:14:33the most likely thing,
1:14:35like if you think they're right about everything,
1:14:37is that they're making a car.
1:14:38I have to think that like a thousand persons seems too small.
1:14:42And I would think that they would have to be something
1:14:44in this article about them hiring away
1:14:46automotive engineers from car makers,
1:14:47like poaching people from different parts
1:14:49of the organization.
1:14:50Like if I just look at these facts,
1:14:52what it looks like they're doing,
1:14:53if I say every fact in this Wall Street Journal article
1:14:55is correct, is they're working on something having to do
1:14:58with interfaces inside cars.
1:15:00It does not look to me like they're making a car
1:15:02because this, I mean, you know, again,
1:15:04if everything in this article is true,
1:15:05I would think you should be hiring way, way, way, way, way
1:15:08more mechanical engineers, automotive engineers,
1:15:11and stuff like that, and be much less concerned
1:15:15about like poaching people from the rest
1:15:17of the organization to do like software and just hiring.
1:15:19It just seems like, again, unless you're buying Tesla,
1:15:22which already comes with those people,
1:15:24this rumor, the most likely thing,
1:15:28if everything was intruding to this article,
1:15:29it's like, oh, they're doing something much more significant
1:15:32having to do with the interior of cars.
1:15:34That's what it looks like to me.
1:15:36I'm bored by that too, though.
1:15:37(laughing)
1:15:39- Speaking of boring, what if it's something
1:15:41even more boring than anything we've discussed?
1:15:43What if they're just using their knowledge of system on a chip and building an ECU?
1:15:52Or what if they're building a custom ECU to work with their custom head unit to vertically
1:15:56integrate or whatever the business-y term is?
1:15:59All the electronics and software in a car.
1:16:02But it could be any car.
1:16:03It could be GMs, it could be Fords, it could be Bentley, who cares?
1:16:07I mean, it's a very boring answer, which is why I don't think it's really Apple style,
1:16:10but it's a possibility.
1:16:11I mean, they've gotten pretty good at chip design.
1:16:14- Yeah, but like, again, who's gonna buy that?
1:16:16Like, I don't think they wanna be a parts vendor
1:16:18for car makers, like that's a loser business.
1:16:20And like anything where you think an Apple will then
1:16:24do this product or service or technology
1:16:26to all the car makers, that is kind of the same reason
1:16:29they can't seem to make a TV.
1:16:30It's like, and Apple will let this technology
1:16:33work with every cable company and all the TV.
1:16:35Like the industry does not want that.
1:16:37Industry does not want Apple to come in
1:16:39and sort of do what they did to the,
1:16:42remember they did the music industry
1:16:43and it's like, oh, well, Apple's not gonna do that
1:16:45to my industry, right?
1:16:46And they basically did it to the cell phone industry too.
1:16:49Like it was all about, they did to the music industry
1:16:51and it's like, damn, now Apple has way more power
1:16:53than we ever wanted them to,
1:16:54how do we get ourselves into this situation?
1:16:56And then it was like the video companies,
1:16:58you know, TV, movies are like,
1:16:59we're not gonna let Apple do
1:17:01what they did to the music companies
1:17:02and they were super resistant and helped competitors
1:17:04or whatever, it's like, ha, we learned our lesson.
1:17:07The people who didn't learn that lesson
1:17:08were the cell phone companies.
1:17:09They weren't paying enough attention.
1:17:11They're like, yeah, see what Apple did
1:17:12the record companies?
1:17:13Yeah, now like the movie studios are all scared of them.
1:17:15Ha ha.
1:17:16They weren't even thinking about themselves.
1:17:17Then Apple came and did the same thing to them essentially.
1:17:19It's like, how did this happen?
1:17:21And the car makers, I would hope wouldn't let that type of,
1:17:25if only because of pride and stubbornness,
1:17:28which seems to be very strong in the car business
1:17:30because there are so few car companies
1:17:32and because so many of them have long story traditions
1:17:34having to do with families and everything,
1:17:36that they do not want an outsider coming in.
1:17:40And like, first of all, everybody's got it,
1:17:42it's not a differentiator, so screw that.
1:17:44And second of all, they don't want anybody coming
1:17:46and telling them their business.
1:17:47But I don't know, like it seems to me that Apple,
1:17:52if again, if these rumors are true,
1:17:54wants to do something having to do with cars,
1:17:56and I think they seem to be starting in the interior
1:17:58and growing slowly.
1:17:59And so unless they buy Tesla, which they totally should,
1:18:02because it would be great, I don't see them making a car.
1:18:05Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week, Cards Against Humanity, Fracture, and Squarespace,
1:18:11and we will see you next week.
1:18:13[MUSIC]
1:18:23Oh it was accidental.
1:18:25Accidental.
1:18:26John didn't do any research.
1:18:28Margo and Casey wouldn't let him.
1:18:31Cause it was accidental.
1:18:33Accidental.
1:18:34It was accidental.
1:18:35Accidental.
1:18:36And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM.
1:18:41And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at
1:18:47C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S, so that's Casey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M
1:18:55Auntie Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A, Syracusa
1:19:03It's accidental (It's accidental)
1:19:06They didn't mean to, accidental (Accidental)
1:19:11Tech broadcast, so long
1:19:16We didn't even mention that oh, it's it's shaped like a minivan. Oh god, can you imagine that had me?
1:19:22I have to be maybe like maybe it's a compact hatchback of some sort but even that's kind of they just mean it's shaped like
1:19:28The where this is from or confront
1:19:31well in electric cars
1:19:32You can have things like the leaf that look sort of
1:19:35Small or even like the smart cars that have small internal combustion like you can end up with a car that is
1:19:40What for lack of a better term dorky looking and it's all just about like oh, it's a little commuter car
1:19:45It's just for transportation purposes and like that's less interesting to me as well
1:19:50But then I can imagine someone who doesn't know anything about cars seeing that and saying oh
1:19:53It's like a minivan or hell seeing the Tesla Model X and seeing it's kind of like a minivan like anything that
1:19:57Doesn't look like a you know a Ford Crown Victoria from their childhood
1:20:01Well, wouldn't you wouldn't you default to SUV rather than minivan if you didn't know any better and didn't know anything about cars
1:20:09I would imagine it has like a snub nose front like someone saying it looks like a minivan that like there's not a lot of
1:20:14of front overhang because you don't have an engine there and you can get better passenger
1:20:18package and like the smart cars look, you know what I mean?
1:20:20Like and then if you make that a little bit larger and puff it up, if it doesn't have
1:20:23like a nose, it doesn't have a hood, then it looks like a minivan or crossover.
1:20:28I don't know.
1:20:29That that that's of all the doomsday scenarios, them making some little electric commuter
1:20:35car like a Leaf or like it's just so uninteresting because that is and I just I don't know.
1:20:41We all read that big Johnny Ive interview, right?
1:20:43I haven't finished it yet.
1:20:45- Oh, it's so good.
1:20:45- No homework, it was homework.
1:20:47- I did like half of it so far, give me a break.
1:20:49- Yeah, everyone was raving about that article,
1:20:51but if you have read, what was it,
1:20:53Leander Caney's "Johnny Ive" book,
1:20:55a lot of that article read like a book report
1:20:57on the "Johnny Ive" book,
1:20:58which is not to say it's a bad thing,
1:20:59'cause it's great, like, if you haven't read the book,
1:21:01there's a lot of good information,
1:21:02and of course, he had actual interviews and access,
1:21:04and that's the good part of the article,
1:21:05but a lot of it, I felt like I was wading through information
1:21:07that I already knew from the book.
1:21:09That's not a slam in the article,
1:21:10That's just why I found it difficult to get through.
1:21:12But anyway, at one point,
1:21:14Johnny Ive looks out of the window of his Bentley,
1:21:16at the Toyota Echo next to him,
1:21:18complains that the styling is terrible.
1:21:19So I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility
1:21:24that Apple would be interested in designing a car
1:21:30and that it would be a dorky car.
1:21:32Like this is a dorky car done right.
1:21:33You know what I mean?
1:21:34Like small, you know, commuter car
1:21:37for people who don't need to go long distances
1:21:39and owning this is so much better for people who never even wanted to own a car,
1:21:43owning this is so much unlike owning a car that it will be great for you and you'll be like,
1:21:46"Oh, they would never do that. Eddy Cue is on the board of Ferrari and
1:21:49Johnny Ive has Aston Martins and they like great, cool cars."
1:21:55But Johnny Ive was looking disdainfully at the Eco, not because I think he thinks the Toyota Eco,
1:21:58like the idea of a small economical car is terrible, but just because he thought it wasn't designed right.
1:22:03In his mind, he's like, "I could do a little car that's much better than that."
1:22:06And he was also picking on somebody who's already down.
1:22:08I mean, Toyota has not made anything attractive since at least the 90s, if not earlier.
1:22:12Yeah.
1:22:13But as soon as the Super got all puffy, it was all downhill.
1:22:16Although, some of the early Lexuses weren't that bad.
1:22:18Like, remember the original Lexus SC coupe?
1:22:20That was an interesting design, don't you think?
1:22:24Really?
1:22:25The Lexus SC, you talk about the convertible hardtop?
1:22:27No, the original SC.
1:22:29You guys maybe don't remember.
1:22:30I'll get you your...
1:22:31I'm looking it up, hold on.
1:22:32That?
1:22:33You like that?
1:22:34No, like super old.
1:22:35No, you gotta go back in time.
1:22:36Like what, when did Lexus, when Lexus came out as a company?
1:22:39- They have one that's like, they have a picture here
1:22:40of a '93 and a '92.
1:22:43- Try the SC300 or SC400.
1:22:46- It looks kind of like an Integra and a Miata had a baby,
1:22:48and this is like kind of what came out.
1:22:50- I mean, but compare, like, this is comparatively
1:22:54much tighter, like as in the skin is stretched
1:22:57much tighter over this car than it was.
1:22:58I think this is like, the innovative thing about this
1:23:00doesn't look like it at the top, looking back,
1:23:02but like, wow, look how smooth and curved
1:23:05the front and back are. Like, this is before cars all became water balloons, but this is,
1:23:10I remember reading a story about this, that one of the design inspirations for the styling
1:23:16of this car was literally taking a water balloon and squeezing it and seeing, squeezing with
1:23:20your hand and seeing the different shapes that it sort of bulges into. But compare this
1:23:25to like current actual water balloon cars and this looks like sporty and spelt and just…
1:23:31- Eh, I'm not sure I agree with you on how good this is.
1:23:35- Yeah, I'm with Marco.
1:23:36This is not a very attractive car at all.
1:23:38- It's a little bit dated, but at the time it came out,
1:23:41it was very refined and stylish, and it was a distinctive,
1:23:45it didn't look like a Mercedes or BMW,
1:23:47unlike, for example, the LS 400,
1:23:48which was like, you know, the poor man's Mercedes,
1:23:51literally only 10 times more reliable and quieter.
1:23:53But it was like this in the original GS
1:23:57actually had some distinctive styling cues
1:24:00where you could say this is like,
1:24:01you know the current line of Lexus is also a distinctive styling cues they're just all ugly
1:24:04Our styling is a big giant ugly bowtie mouth. Yeah them and Acura
1:24:09I I would really say like like this the last couple years have really not been kind to most car design
1:24:16We've had some really really bad cars being made recently new
1:24:20I really like the new Accord and I like the new 5 series to happen to be two of our cars
1:24:25But I think the styling of those cars took a definite turn for the better because the previous generation
1:24:29Accord was butt ugly and the previous generation 5 was not good
1:24:32Yeah, I agree with those actually
1:24:34But you can look around the industry and you can see a lot of things that get seem to keep getting worse
1:24:40Yeah, like for example everything Acura makes yep every Acura every Lexus
1:24:45Some BMWs if I can say I really don't like the new m3 styling as we just as we talked about with the skin flaps
1:24:51I don't like that at all
1:24:53I don't know like
1:24:54Accurate I think is a little bit of an upswing because they had they had a really serious unfortunate beak error
1:25:00And they're I think they're trying to come out of that like the MDX is like the low point
1:25:05Just or maybe the ZDX whatever that other thing like I think they're starting to come out of it
1:25:11I think when they merge that merge their high-end sedans back together
1:25:14into whatever it is the RLX now that the TSX and the RL became the single car the RLX that is a
1:25:21Personalization and the styling of that car is not entirely hideous and really the RL wasn't entirely hideous here either
1:25:26But yeah, they're off in a weird direction
1:25:29I think that I think they're trying to come back where like BMW went off in a weird direction, too
1:25:33and they're trying to gather it back, but
1:25:35I think you know
1:25:36like you said the new the new 3 series starts to go off in a weird direction again like the 5 is 5 was the
1:25:41Maybe the peak comeback period and we'll see what the next 5 looks like to see if that gets better or worse
1:25:46God the Maxima is terrible these days. Sorry. Yeah, just don't even look at the Maxima anymore. Just don't look. Oh my god
1:25:52I heard it was getting better because it had some dark times, but it just keeps getting worse
1:25:57I missed I missed the 40 SC
1:25:59Yeah, like I mean the one I had the 96 Maxima was it wasn't it wasn't incredibly attractive
1:26:04But it was it was at least neutral ding. This is the new one. Oh boy
1:26:09Jeez, what are they doing? What is wrong with Nissan? Oh
1:26:13- Oh, what a shame.
1:26:14The Maxima was so good.
1:26:16It lost its way so severely.
1:26:18- Yep.
1:26:19- Nissan had some interesting things.
1:26:20Like when the Altima did the wraparound tail lights,
1:26:23like that was going a little bit too far,
1:26:25but at least it was interesting.
1:26:26And I think the Maxima, like one or two generations ago,
1:26:30also had some interesting features.
1:26:32It was still kind of puffy,
1:26:33but they were kind of in the right direction.
1:26:35And then they just lost it for the current generation.
1:26:38- Oh man, I miss neutral.
1:26:40- Wow, the Altima's pretty rough these days too.
1:26:43boy what are they thinking?
1:26:44- The car market is not that welcoming as of late.
1:26:49(laughing)
1:26:50I mean what is there really that's compelling these days?
1:26:53- Well I think the move to electric is interesting,
1:26:55you know, like it's still pretty limited and expensive,
1:26:59but I think that's like, you know,
1:27:02it's similar to the move to SSDs and computers,
1:27:04like that is, that's clearly the way forward eventually.
1:27:09Obviously it's gonna move a lot more slowly
1:27:11I think than the SSD transition,
1:27:13but 'cause turns out gas engines are good enough
1:27:17for so many things and way better at certain other things
1:27:21that like, yeah, it's gonna be a long time
1:27:24before gas engines are even the minority.
1:27:27But I think the electric cars are gonna be
1:27:30where we are looking for excitement.
1:27:33And you know, maybe that's why Apple wants
1:27:35to be a part of it if they do, who knows,
1:27:36but you know, clearly from people who have driven them
1:27:40or from people who own them,
1:27:41There are a lot of compelling differences to them.
1:27:44There's still a lot of downsides, but we'll get there.
1:27:49- I just looked at the 2015 Maxima.
1:27:51I was thinking of the 2014 one.
1:27:54The 2015 one, holy cow!
1:27:56- Did they make it even worse?
1:27:58- I am speechless.
1:28:04I haven't felt this way since the last time,
1:28:06when I first saw the rear end of the C7 Corvette.
1:28:09Like that's the last time I felt this way.
1:28:12- Let me see, what happened?
1:28:14- I just put it in the chat room.
1:28:16- What is that?
1:28:17- I mean it's a concept, all right.
1:28:20Maybe it's a concept.
1:28:22I just did search for Nissan Maxima 2015.
1:28:25If this is a concept I feel a little bit better, but like.
1:28:28- Yeah, this is not a shipping car.
1:28:30- But if it was, that would be a big mistake,
1:28:33'cause that is not an attractive vehicle.
1:28:35- At least it would be different.
1:28:36I mean, you could at least describe this one as polarizing,
1:28:41whereas the regular Maxima you can just describe
1:28:44as mediocre to bad.
1:28:45Polarizing, somebody will love this.
1:28:49People with bad taste probably, but somebody will love this.
1:28:52Whereas the current Maxima, nobody can love it.
1:28:54- That's what I was thinking of the current one,
1:28:55where that design with the little corner cut
1:28:58out of the headlights, the first time they did that
1:29:00was interesting, but now the car's puffy and gross again.
1:29:04- It looks like a mistake.
1:29:05It's like it just look it looks like somebody like somebody just screwed up while dragging out this design and 3d modeling software
1:29:12Everybody go over Honda Accord 2014 to cleanse your palate. Oh
1:29:15God listen to this guy. Oh wait wait wait the Maxima was at the end of the really sappy Super Bowl commercial from this year
1:29:23The one where the dad's a race car driver
1:29:26And and he like picks his son up from school or something like that at the very is the one where they killed children to
1:29:31advertise insurance
1:29:32No, I said sappy not stupid
1:29:35Anyway, the dad like picks up his kid after he's missed his entire childhood, but he picks him up in a new Maxima
1:29:41So all is forgiven. I put the link in the chat about one minute and 16 seconds give or take a little bit
1:29:46Wait this I'm looking at the 2014 Honda Accord to cleanse my impala and you're right
1:29:50It did close out because it just looks completely forgettable. Like don't look at the hybrid don't look at the hybrid
1:29:55I'm I'm looking at the LX sedan on automotive calm
1:30:00It's just oh, it's just like it's just incredibly bland
1:30:04It's even in in that light silver color that all incredibly bland cars in the last decade have been not bland it is
1:30:09Distinctive it is non bloaty is attractive
1:30:12It has nice wheels. I agree that it's non bloaty like the sheet metal is stuck to the car. Yes
1:30:20Yeah, I will agree. I will give you that point and it is a car shaped car
1:30:24Yes, Wow it's not shaped like a snail or a poop our standards are pretty low here
1:30:29This is this is this is what I look at that friggin maxima. What is that shape like not a car?
1:30:34I guess yeah that that is the epitome of water balloon design. I
1:30:37Actually do not think the Accord is very good-looking to be honest with you
1:30:41You know, it really needs that spoiler lip on the back to keep the wheels on the ground
1:30:45It's really fast does a little extra downforce for that. I think
1:30:48The rear end is not great, but it's better than past Accords
1:30:53But I really like the front of it and even like I say oh
1:30:55Isn't there just a little bit too much chrome on the front like just
1:30:57Look at all the other Honda's that are trying to use the same design language, and how gross they are and this is the one
1:31:03Car that got this design language to be attractive
1:31:06I think this looks no different to me than what's the big Toyota the Camry?
1:31:11This is so different go actually look at a camera a Camry now your Google camera
1:31:15You will see there's a huge never never mind if you see them in person. It's not even close like
1:31:20rectilinear headlights.
1:31:22- All right, so I'm looking at a Camry now and--
1:31:24- They look the exact same.
1:31:25- No, it does not.
1:31:26Are you crazy?
1:31:27- I would say the Accord looks better.
1:31:29- Way better.
1:31:29- I would say the difference is pretty small.
1:31:31- Thank you, I would agree with that, Marco.
1:31:32- No way, look at the giant fish mouth and the friggin',
1:31:35oh, I'm not gonna be Avalon, but like the Camry,
1:31:37like it's just, the Camry has nothing going for it.
1:31:39It has no, it has no distinction to its design.
1:31:42It is just a series of little details
1:31:45tacked onto a squishy shape.
1:31:47- Well, I would say the same thing is true of the Accord.
1:31:49but it just looks a little bit less squishy.
1:31:50There's not a lot going on here.
1:31:52It is a very, if you think about what would be
1:31:56the dictionary definition of a car,
1:31:57it would have a picture of this next to it.
1:31:59If you ever see those pictures where they average
1:32:02every human face and then it shows the most average face.
1:32:05- No, but this would not be the average.
1:32:07This is different, average together,
1:32:09like the Camry and the Maxima.
1:32:11You do not get the Accord, it is not the average.
1:32:14It may have been the average of a bunch of cars
1:32:16like a decade ago, but it is off the beaten path
1:32:19of car makers now.
1:32:20I think this car is attractive and classy, I would say.
1:32:23Classy, it does not embarrass itself
1:32:26in the way that the other cars do.
1:32:28- 'Cause it just disappears.
1:32:29It just blends right into whatever.
1:32:31- I don't think it just disappears.
1:32:32I think being classy in this way doesn't disappear
1:32:35in the same way that like Casey's beloved 5 Series.
1:32:38Like, whoa, this is boring.
1:32:39It just kind of blends in with the background.
1:32:40Just looks like a car.
1:32:41The only thing that distinguishes this,
1:32:42it's got little kidneys in the front,
1:32:43but otherwise it's just a car-shaped car.
1:32:45Remember when all the BMWs were all like the same shape,
1:32:47just came in different sizes?
1:32:49- Not that different from now, honestly.
1:32:50- Well, it is now, but they all have these bulges
1:32:52and ripples and flanges all over them,
1:32:55and they all have different ripples and flanges.
1:32:56But when they all look the same,
1:32:58the complaint was it's too boring.
1:33:00It doesn't have the excitement of, you know,
1:33:03if I'm gonna spend this much money in a car,
1:33:05I want it to look more exciting.
1:33:06I just don't want it to look like the same car
1:33:08in three sizes and super boring.
1:33:10But I think that's a, you know,
1:33:13Having restraint and being sort of a classy car that the places where it decides to emphasize
1:33:19its attractiveness is in the small details, but the overall shape is very just simple
1:33:23and non-showy.
1:33:26I think it's a perfectly valid way to go.
1:33:27I think I screwed it up with the back because the tail lights aren't particularly nice looking,
1:33:31but the overall shape of the car I think is very pleasing.
1:33:34See your definition of classy to me what you're describing is the E39 M5.
1:33:39When I think of boring and unremarkable, I think of pretty much any Accord that's ever
1:33:43been ever.
1:33:44Another good example is the front air dam, like the big plastic front bumper thing, whatever
1:33:48you're going to call that.
1:33:50So many car makers, including I think most BMWs these days, just go nuts with that thing
1:33:55and mess it up.
1:33:56Oh, well, the, well, the thing with BMWs, you're right, is that, and I've talked about
1:34:00this a million times, the non M sport front air dam on a regular BMW is like a little
1:34:05slit and it looks awful.
1:34:07It looks terrible.
1:34:08of the reason I insisted on getting myself an M Sport 335 was not because of anything
1:34:14else.
1:34:15Like it doesn't really go any faster, it doesn't handle any better because I have an X Drive.
1:34:18It was strictly for that air dam because it actually looks good.
1:34:22I think most of the things try to make everything like it has giant jet intakes and big scoops
1:34:27and flanges and things poking out of it and that's why I think that the M Sport ones look
1:34:30worse than the other ones or like at least more gaudy.
1:34:34And just look at the look at the big front piece of plastic on this Accord.
1:34:38It is restrained, it does not call attention to itself.
1:34:42It completes the shape of the car with maybe a little bit of smarty pretensions of like
1:34:47sticking out at the bottom rim a little bit and with a little tiny chrome accent.
1:34:51But it does not, I mean, just compare it to that same part on an M3, current generation
1:34:56M3, which just like screams at you that I'm a Transformer.
1:34:59Well but you're just, you're making our point, which is like, the Accord looks like, it looks
1:35:04average and forgettable.
1:35:05It is like, it doesn't jump out at you.
1:35:08None of the design just jumps out and says,
1:35:10look at me, I'm a huge design flaw.
1:35:13It just, the whole car just looks like an average,
1:35:17completely forgettable car.
1:35:18- Well, average car doesn't have those wheels.
1:35:20And I would say an average car doesn't have
1:35:21the LED highlights and the headlights.
1:35:24And the, you know, looking restrained,
1:35:27I think it does make a stand.
1:35:28Again, compare it to the Avalon,
1:35:29which looks like a giant cheese grater fish grill
1:35:31flying through the air with a chrome nose on it.
1:35:33Like, that is what the average car looks like.
1:35:35Go look at, you know.
1:35:37It's not, this is the average car.
1:35:40Like, the Altima is the average car.
1:35:42The Maxima is the average car.
1:35:44The Camry is the average car.
1:35:45They do not look like, compare the thing I just pasted
1:35:47in the chat room with the Accord.
1:35:49And say like, well, you know, it calls attention to itself,
1:35:51but in a bad way.
1:35:52And if you averaged a bunch of cars together,
1:35:54I think you would get something
1:35:54that would look way more like the Avalon than like the Accord.
1:35:56- Oh my God, the Avalon is ridiculous.
1:35:58What is that?
1:35:59- That's the current, that's like,
1:36:01- Oh my God. - And again,
1:36:02look at the Camry with the little chrome, like--
1:36:04- This is uglier than the Maxima concept.
1:36:06- Exactly, like that's what the average car looks like now.
1:36:09And look at the front bumper thing.
1:36:11Well, go look at the Camry.
1:36:13- Yeah, you're right.
1:36:14That front air dam is the kind of front air dam
1:36:17that I like, the big gaping hole,
1:36:19taken way too far, entirely too far.
1:36:22- And on top of it is an ugly chrome nose,
1:36:25and it's got misshapen headlights hanging off the corners,
1:36:27and the fog lights are all misshapen.
1:36:29- Oh, we agree about this.
1:36:30What is this?
1:36:31I'm just blown away by this car, by the Avalon.
1:36:35Oh my God.
1:36:37I rented an Avalon a couple years ago on a trip
1:36:40and it was a pretty reasonable car.
1:36:42It was huge and totally marshmallowy,
1:36:45you couldn't feel or do anything.
1:36:46But it was overall a respectable choice.
1:36:49It looked average, it was black, it was low key,
1:36:52it was pretty fast given what it was,
1:36:55and it was comfortable, it was fine.
1:36:57It was a perfectly fine choice.
1:37:00This, my god, I mean.
1:37:03- Go look at the, now go look at the camera
1:37:04I just pasted in.
1:37:05- Ooh, that is, that is really bad.
1:37:07- Go look at the front piece of plastic on this camera
1:37:09and look at the shape of the headlights
1:37:10and look at how the shape of the headlights
1:37:12just have no conviction.
1:37:14Like, keep the Accord open in other windows.
1:37:16You can keep looking back from one to the other.
1:37:18Look at the friggin' front of that camera.
1:37:20Oh, camera and Accord, they basically look the same.
1:37:21Are you kidding me?
1:37:22Look at that thing.
1:37:23- Wait, I didn't say they basically look the same.
1:37:26- I did.
1:37:27- Now that you see them both in front of you,
1:37:29Do you understand how the Accord is very different?
1:37:31And if you average all these cars together,
1:37:33they would not look like that.
1:37:34And again, throw in the Altima, throw in, you know.
1:37:37- This Camry looks like it's been an accident.
1:37:39(laughing)
1:37:41Doesn't it look like the way it has those half fog lights
1:37:45like on the side, and then the whole front grill
1:37:48is like weirdly shaped and black.
1:37:50It looks like it was in an accident
1:37:52and it's been half repaired,
1:37:54and they haven't like painted the new parts yet.
1:37:56- Look at the hood cut lines even.
1:37:58Look at the shape of the headlights,
1:38:00look at the hood cut lines,
1:38:01look at the lack of confidence in the chrome
1:38:04that's going across the thing through the logo.
1:38:06It just, it's nothing.
1:38:09And you know, I think the only other car company,
1:38:12boring car company, that has cars that have the styling
1:38:15that is not embarrassing and hideous is Mazda.
1:38:17The Mazda 6, again, does not look like other cars.
1:38:21Is interesting, it has a family resemblance,
1:38:23and it has some interesting styling on it,
1:38:25but it has sort of the courage of its convictions.
1:38:27It says conviction right in the marketing title.
1:38:29Conviction, creativity, courage.
1:38:32This is what changes the game.
1:38:34It's the first word on the page.
1:38:35- Yeah, see, so Erin has a 2007 Mazda 6,
1:38:38which I think is a very pretty car for the time.
1:38:41It has--
1:38:42- Less conviction there.
1:38:43- It has the kind of large front air dam that I like.
1:38:47Then the generation after hers,
1:38:48which started in like 2008, 2009,
1:38:51it was one or two generations actually
1:38:53that were just terrible.
1:38:54But I agree with you that the brand new Mazda 6,
1:38:57maybe it's a year or two old now, is also very pretty and I also really really like it.
1:39:01Yeah, and I don't like the styling as much as the Accord, but you can't say that it looks like...
1:39:07I think they've made it worse. The one I just pasted actually looks worse than the original generations.
1:39:10But like it has kind of shoulders and hips and its headlights have a purposeful distinct shape. Same thing with its hood cut lines.
1:39:17Everything about it is not...
1:39:18Like I hate cars where it looks like they molded the car out of clay and then someone else came later and
1:39:24Cut out where the hood would be like even the BM the current BMW 3s with like the hood
1:39:28Corners that end kind of over on the right and left edges by the headlights
1:39:32Like it looks like you made a car shape and it was a good car shape
1:39:35But where you put where you cut out for the hood
1:39:37Makes your car less attractive like it's not integrated into the shape. It's just like you took up a line a laser
1:39:43Okay, now that's where the hood opens
1:39:45Did you speaking of hoods? Did you watch that? I ate video that someone sent us? No, I watched two seconds of it
1:39:51I didn't have a chance you should because well first of all make Marco never buy this car
1:39:54Which may be good because we think we shouldn't he shouldn't buy this car. So we'll stop him from
1:39:58So far, I think I shouldn't buy this car. So you don't need to do any convincing there
1:40:02I wish we still have that. I think someone email it to us
1:40:06No, I mean like I've never been interested in the i-8 because it is it is not a four-door sedan
1:40:11Ultimately, I really just want a four-door sedan and I'm very happy with the one I have
1:40:16You know
1:40:16Some of the chat rooms said the BMW i8 screams Tesla anxiety Tesla is with the exception of perhaps of the stupid door handles is
1:40:23A actual real regular car like use it every day. Nothing about it is weird
1:40:28You can open and close all the doors simply because I it has those weird doors as well
1:40:32You can open and close all the different trunk hatches. You can get in and get out of it
1:40:35It has seats as you know, everything about it is just it's a car you can drive it
1:40:39Whereas the i8 is like it's kind of a work of art kind of kind of a statement about something
1:40:46It also kind of works as a car if you're careful. All right, so so let's let's take on the big guns now
1:40:52I don't think the Tesla Model S is that attractive
1:40:55It's not the front of the front of the Tesla Model S is ugly like the grill thing speaking of mouth
1:41:00But the overall shape is pretty decent. I would say that the Model S looks like it looks extremely blobby
1:41:06It looks like all the personalities been sanded off. I don't like the light design
1:41:11I don't like the front or the back design or the side design and I think and I've seen
1:41:16a number of them in person and I don't think they use very high quality paint.
1:41:20I've never seen, like the black doesn't look very good, the silver just kind of looks boring.
1:41:26Like you can look at certain cars, like I always get blacks, you can look at certain
1:41:29cars and you can see like certain blacks are better looking than others and Tesla I think
1:41:34has a pretty crappy one.
1:41:36And like it doesn't look like its price at all and for a car that is so interesting and
1:41:42revolutionary, I think it should look a little more like that.
1:41:46And it doesn't.
1:41:47- That's Tesla's weak spot.
1:41:48The interior are the same as well.
1:41:49The materials of the interior are the,
1:41:51although supposedly in the new models
1:41:52there's an option for much better seats,
1:41:54but like the interior of the car
1:41:55does not look like a car of that price.
1:41:57The materials, the comfort,
1:41:58the thickness of the padding on the seats,
1:42:00like it just, and like I said, the outside of it,
1:42:03the paint quality, the detailing,
1:42:05it seems like a lower class than it should be.
1:42:08I think the overall shape is actually pretty good
1:42:10and actually kind of interesting and muscular,
1:42:12but the front and rear end treatments do not do justice to the overall shape, which I think
1:42:17the overall shape is not bad.
1:42:18Like, if you blanked over all the headlights and tail lights and got rid of that ugly mouth
1:42:22grille on the front and just looked like the shape of the car, it looks, in that regard,
1:42:27I think it does look like an expensive car in this shape, because most cars, but again
1:42:31maybe the exception of like the Mazda 6, don't look sort of that muscular and purposeful,
1:42:37especially a car with as much interior room as the Model S has.
1:42:40It doesn't look like a big giant crossover SUV thing that's lowered down
1:42:45But I mean consider what came before it Tesla Roadster was just flat-out ugly like it was not an attractive looking car at all
1:42:52It was just the shape of it was awkward and weird and everything about it. I don't think that's true
1:42:56I thought it was a decent looking car
1:42:58I mean it granted it was basically just a lotus
1:43:00But I didn't think it was a bad looking car. The lotus looks way better on that same frame than the thing
1:43:05But the Model S has something to recommend it and it sort of defines a Tesla look
1:43:09I don't particularly think the Tesla look is that attractive, but I do like the overall shape of the car
1:43:12And I do think the shape looks a little bit expensive. But yeah, the detailing you can get a yacht floor
1:43:17What are they model s? Yeah, there's an option for a yacht floor. Yeah, I think they are cranking up the options
1:43:22Like what was it?
1:43:23What is a yacht floor?
1:43:24Hey, Vannion of super duper famous telling me about the new model of Tesla's because he got to drive one
1:43:28You know like the dealership gave him one when his was in for service
1:43:31So we got to drive one of the new fast ones and everything and it's telling about the new options
1:43:34I think like they realize where the weaknesses are
1:43:36Like if people spend that much money out the car they want the interior to feel better than a $30,000
1:43:42You know $35,000 BMW with cloth seats. They don't even make those anymore, but they used to right, right?
1:43:47Well, cuz well, no they still do in Europe just not in the US
1:43:49No, I mean like and then the problem Tesla's always had is like they've always compared themselves in justifying their their high price
1:43:57They've always said well if you compare us to like a Mercedes s-class, which is what we're comparable to blah blah blah
1:44:03It's not even a contest right like if you compare the interior quality
1:44:06to other like the set to a 7 series an s-class or the amenities or yeah or the amenities
1:44:12You know the Lexus the high-end Lexus is like if you compare it to any of the very high-end large sedans
1:44:17It doesn't quite match at least it hasn't in the past
1:44:21Maybe you know, I haven't seen one of these new ones yet
1:44:22But the Tesla will take that s-class off the line any day though
1:44:26And so like so you can kind of start selling it as like in the same way that you don't expect like, you know
1:44:32an Audi RS or a
1:44:34Portion of gt3 you know the interior is gonna be like
1:44:37Stripped down and bare and like that's part of the aesthetic of the car like you're not in so like in some ways Tesla kind
1:44:43Of unintentionally has that going for it
1:44:45It's like we don't intentionally make it stripped down although
1:44:47I always thought in the beat in the first model like the interior was like the padding was so thin and the seats and everything
1:44:51Just because they wanted to save weight and like those big luxurious
1:44:53Cushy seats like you have in your car Margo they weigh a lot and so if you're trying to cut down a weight
1:44:59You're gonna give it a little bit cheaper seats
1:45:00And that's why I think like the new seats are an option
1:45:02and I wonder how much more they weigh than the other stuff,
1:45:05but if you're gonna go with that thing,
1:45:08at least you have performance to back it up.
1:45:10I mean, it still weighs a ton
1:45:12and still not gonna change direction that well,
1:45:14but it does have that super flat cornering attitude
1:45:17that feels weird and it's super fast and quiet
1:45:21and actually a fun electric car to drive by all accounts.
1:45:25- I gotta drive one.
1:45:27I'm tired of guessing how much fun it is.
1:45:29- I think you will find it to be super heavy
1:45:31and corner strangely flat and be really fast
1:45:33in a straight line.
1:45:34- That's very likely, yeah.
1:45:36And I'm gonna hate the lack of knobs and buttons.
1:45:38- I have not driven one, but I have been driven in one,
1:45:40and even just being a passenger,
1:45:41I was just immediately apparent.
1:45:44Like, it's not like I went in expecting to feel this
1:45:46'cause I didn't really know, didn't think about it,
1:45:47whatever, how flat it is in cornering.
1:45:50Like, strangely so, startling,
1:45:52without having stiff suspension where you feel every bump,
1:45:55because it's just the center of gravity.
1:45:57Like, this humongous weight is around the bottom of the car.
1:46:00And then, did I feel that the car felt heavy?
1:46:03I can't tell that as a passenger,
1:46:05but I just know it is heavy 'cause it is, you know.
1:46:08- Wonder how many people are actually gonna listen to this.
1:46:10- I gotta cut all this neutral out
1:46:11'cause people can't take it.
1:46:12- The whole show was neutral.
1:46:13This is mostly staying in, I think.
1:46:16- Yeah, Apple car, it's not our fault.
1:46:18They forced our hand.
1:46:19- Yeah, we had to do this.
1:46:20It was an accidental car podcast.
1:46:22[door closes]
1:46:24[BLANK_AUDIO]