103: An Atheist or a Howard Stern Fan

0:00:00Everyone should pull up pictures of the Ferrari 48 for the after show

0:00:03We actually are probably going to do an after show neutral cuz I have what does he what'd you say 488?

0:00:08Ooh, first turbo interesting. You're just hearing this news. Now. You didn't look at France was tweeting about it

0:00:13I was going back and forth with you

0:00:15I was watching I was watching it don't deserve Ferraris. Forget it. No Ferrari for either one of you. That's it

0:00:22Did you guys add anything good to the topics list because I don't see anything exciting on there

0:00:28I had one thing.

0:00:29This is going to be a boring show everyone.

0:00:31This is going to be a great show.

0:00:34I just realized that I hadn't added anything other than one little measly item and I guess

0:00:40we have some leftovers from before.

0:00:42Oh yeah, so here's my crappy story I wanted to tell.

0:00:45It was either today or yesterday I was fiddling with the CSS for my website and you have to

0:00:51understand if you think of the person in your life that claims to be a developer but is

0:00:57is the worst that you can possibly be at CSS.

0:01:01I'm like five times worse than that person.

0:01:04So anyway, so I'm fiddling with CSS,

0:01:05trying to do a media query,

0:01:06which is pretty for my god awful skill level.

0:01:11And I remembered that you can actually have Safari

0:01:16reach into whatever the iOS simulator Safari app is

0:01:22to do the-

0:01:24- The inspector.

0:01:25Thank you. The inspector on what's being shown in the iOS simulator, which I thought was

0:01:30freaking cool. And I know this is not new news, but that was the first occasion I had

0:01:34to actually use it. And I thought it was amazing. It's amazing when it works. So last time I

0:01:39used it was like two years ago, but boy was it flaky. It works great. I mean, I've, I've

0:01:43used it a lot and it it's always worked great recently. I think it came out in iOS six.

0:01:47Yeah. I think I was using it when it was a brand new one. I was so excited. I was able

0:01:51to do it. It was like, this is going to make everything so much easier and it does, but

0:01:53it would lose its connection to the remote browser thing all the time.

0:01:58No, now it's pretty solid.

0:02:00I use it all the time.

0:02:01And it works with any web view in the app.

0:02:03So not just Mobile Safari.

0:02:05Oh, is that right?

0:02:06That's one of the great things about it.

0:02:07Like, if you have a web view in your app,

0:02:09it'll list all the active web views that are currently

0:02:11attached to the window.

0:02:13And you can DOM inspect your web views, which is really handy.

0:02:16I'm pretty sure that's the main reason it's there.

0:02:18And it's so useful.

0:02:22That's extremely cool.

0:02:23- Yeah, so, and like I said, it's kind of a silly story,

0:02:25but I just thought it was neat.

0:02:26So go try that if you're a web developer

0:02:29and/or terrible at CSS like I am.

0:02:31- Yeah, and for those of you who don't know where it is,

0:02:34if you launch, if you're running the simulator,

0:02:36go back to Safari, and under the debug menu,

0:02:39it'll list any web views that are found

0:02:41in the running simulator.

0:02:42So in the Safari developer or debug menu,

0:02:44whatever it's called.

0:02:46- That's desktop Safari, just to be absolutely clear.

0:02:48- Yeah, it's called, oh, it's called develop, okay, yeah.

0:02:50So if you go to develop, it's listed there.

0:02:52All right. Any other crappy stories before we get into follow-up?

0:02:56I can tell you about some dreams I've had recently. Maybe some travel stories.

0:03:01I've heard that Boston's gotten a wee bit of snow. You and your beloved Winters.

0:03:06We're not talking about snow. It sounds like we are.

0:03:10Hey, you love winter.

0:03:11Did anything happen in the industry that we can actually talk about?

0:03:13No, not really.

0:03:14It doesn't seem like it was that big of a news week.

0:03:16We have follow-up first. We're not on the topics yet.

0:03:18Although I didn't put either one of these follow-up items. I think it was all you, Casey.

0:03:22So let's do some follow-up. Daniel Shurson has said, "About handwriting recognition, text input is still kind of hacky for languages with more than 30-ish letters."

0:03:30And that was a tweet that he had posted, we'll put that in the show notes. I just thought it was an interesting point because I can imagine in a situation where you have 11 gazillion characters that may be kind of difficult.

0:03:42That being said hot off the presses earlier today on Wednesday

0:03:47My friend will Haynes who I believe I brought up on the last episode or if not an episode or two ago

0:03:53put together a about five minute video of

0:03:56how you can

0:03:59enter text

0:04:00In iOS 8 in various different languages so again will is Australian born

0:04:05But lives in Tokyo and has for a while now and so he put together this video

0:04:10and it doesn't require audio which is kind of nice if you want to be listening to like music or something else

0:04:15but what he talks about is the various ways that you can type in both Japanese and actually Chinese as well and that includes the

0:04:23Romaji keyboard I'm probably pronouncing it wrong. I'm sorry try

0:04:27So do you know the actual pronunciation? No, but I always say Romaji. Okay. Well, there you go. Like Jumanji. Yeah, it's exactly

0:04:34I could be wrong, too

0:04:37So yeah, so that apparently the way that works is you basically use what I would call an English keyboard in order to

0:04:44Start typing the English language equivalent of Japanese words. I'm already probably going terribly wrong

0:04:52I'm so sorry, and then he also showed a couple of the other keyboards one of which is

0:04:57Set up like a numeric keypad, which is kind of interesting

0:05:02And apparently because Japanese specifically only has but so many sounds that kind of works and it's a combination of typing and swiping

0:05:08Which is what he had actually shown me at the beer bash

0:05:10WWDC and then I had confused my own story and I had thought he had shown me a handwriting recognition

0:05:17Keyboard which he didn't but in this video

0:05:21He does take the liberty of showing you how a handwriting recognition keyboard would work for Chinese

0:05:25So it you don't have to watch the entire video

0:05:28Well, obviously don't watch any of it, but I thought it was a fascinating and very succinct look at

0:05:33How you can enter these very different

0:05:37languages or type in these very different languages in

0:05:41Really wild in different ways than the traditional keyboard that we're all used to and I just thought it was really neat did either of you

0:05:46Guys watch this. I assume that Marco you did not because you don't believe in homework

0:05:49I'm actually very heavily medicated right now fighting off a horrible cold. So I did almost nothing to prepare for this show

0:05:56I literally I printed out my little three pages here of sponsorship reads, and we'll talk about your printouts later. Yeah, and and that's

0:06:03Literally all I did I just opened up Chrome after I started this call to look at the notes

0:06:08Excellent John. Did you happen to watch this video? I?

0:06:11Main thing I came away from our feedback about this is that like people all over the map some people were like

0:06:18Nobody uses handwriting recognition. Everyone's just used to typing it in

0:06:24Or only old people whatever use handwriting recognition other people or like handwriting recognition is so much better

0:06:31in fact

0:06:32It's better than it is in Western languages because there's in sort of an order that you're supposed to do the strokes and a direction

0:06:39And everything it's very regimented, and if you you know everybody learns the same way unlike

0:06:42You know letters in the English language that different people draw in all sorts of crazy different ways and in different orders and everything so

0:06:50I really don't know what to think.

0:06:52In fact, one of the weird things,

0:06:53I guess this isn't weird,

0:06:54but I think it seemed like the majority of the feedback

0:06:56we got were from people who were not from the region.

0:07:00Like I'm from Australia or the UK or Germany,

0:07:04and I moved to the Far East,

0:07:05and I guess they're giving like a Westerners impression,

0:07:08and then I would imagine all the people who were born there

0:07:10can't understand a word we're saying,

0:07:11'cause most of them don't know English.

0:07:13So I don't know.

0:07:16Oh yeah, and a lot of people were showing us

0:07:17the built-in handwriting recognition

0:07:19that's in iOS now under the accessibility things

0:07:21and everything, and saying,

0:07:24"Oh, Apple doesn't need to do anything.

0:07:25It's already built in there."

0:07:26And I remember back in 2002, I think it was,

0:07:31when Apple added handwriting recognition to OS X.

0:07:34Do either one of you guys remember that?

0:07:35- No.

0:07:36- Yeah, I put it in my review

0:07:38'cause I got to show off my terrible handwriting.

0:07:40I tried to write "Hello, world" like seven times,

0:07:42and then I showed what OS X thought I was writing.

0:07:45Sometimes it guessed correctly, "Hello, world."

0:07:46Other times it was way off.

0:07:49But in all these cases, it's like,

0:07:51this is sort of an optional extra buried in some way.

0:07:56It's not universal.

0:07:56Like when Apple added speech recognition,

0:07:59pretty much any place you have a text input field,

0:08:01if you can bring up the standard keyboard,

0:08:03there's the little microphone and you can use it there.

0:08:06Handwriting recognition has not been raised that level,

0:08:09mostly because Apple doesn't ship any devices with stylus

0:08:11and doesn't really have its own stylus

0:08:14that it supports or anything.

0:08:15So I think that's what we're all waiting for

0:08:19regarding the styles in the iPad.

0:08:21Will Apple do for handwriting recognition

0:08:24what it has already done for text input with a keyboard

0:08:27and for audio input speech to text?

0:08:32- Cool.

0:08:34So is this even still in OS X now?

0:08:38- I think so.

0:08:39I mean, I should pull out my tablet and connect it

0:08:40and see if it happens.

0:08:41So they called it Ink or something.

0:08:42You don't see the-- - Inkwell.

0:08:44Yeah, you don't see the preference pane unless you actually attach a tablet.

0:08:48So until you do that, it doesn't appear.

0:08:50I guess you could just go into the preference panes directory and look to see if you see

0:08:53the handwriting recognition or ink thing in there.

0:08:56I have a Wacom tablet in the closet I could probably try with this week and report back

0:09:00next week.

0:09:01Yeah, that's what I use for the review.

0:09:02I think I borrowed a tablet and just plugged it in and a little thing appeared.

0:09:06We'll find that link for the show notes at some point.

0:09:10is in the chat saying to us that it's still there so we'll assume that that's the case.

0:09:15Yeah you know I have been looking for ways to slow down my computer input and make it

0:09:19less efficient and more annoying and take up more desk space so I'm looking forward

0:09:23to trying this.

0:09:25There's a designer at work and he has a Wacom, Wacom, Wacket whatever it's called, tablet-y

0:09:32thing and not only that but he also has a Magic Trackpad and I believe he also uses

0:09:38So he has all three manners of pointing devices on his desk

0:09:41at all times, which I think is a little bit crazy,

0:09:45but designers are kind of a little bit crazy.

0:09:49- Well, he currently has the same number of input methods

0:09:52on his desk as I have headphone amps on my desk,

0:09:54so I can't really complain or say anything about that.

0:09:58- Fair enough.

0:10:00All right, any other follow-up that we have,

0:10:02or are we good to go on that?

0:10:04- I feel like we're forgetting something,

0:10:06but I don't know what.

0:10:07Well, yeah, you're forgetting to follow up on my email.

0:10:11People complaining about, "Oh, yeah, we can talk about that."

0:10:13No, no, that was a bad reference, never mind.

0:10:16Anyway, it reminded me of last week when Marco told everybody that he hates them, and then

0:10:21this week we got all the angry email from the people whose feelings are hurt by Marco's

0:10:27email policy.

0:10:28Oh, yeah, there were a lot of hurt feelings.

0:10:30Were there?

0:10:31Because from the responses that actually got to me via Twitter and email, it was overwhelmingly

0:10:37positive. There were certainly some people who were like, "Yeah, you probably shouldn't

0:10:41be doing that," or "I'm personally offended, you should not even be in business." One

0:10:46guy got really bent out of shape, but for the most part, the response was not nearly

0:10:52as bad as I expected. It was overall mostly in agreement, or at least understanding.

0:10:58I think that is fair.

0:11:00I think even the people who were angry understood. They were just like… the people who were

0:11:05angry didn't like the idea that your policy left some people feeling bad like

0:11:14especially if it was them like they would say I understand the effects of

0:11:18your policy in terms of how you allocate your time and return on investments like

0:11:23the the business type things but they would say but I think overall it's not a

0:11:29good strategy because it leaves some of your customers feeling bad and and

0:11:34and sometimes they would say they were one of the customers who have a health add, and

0:11:37some of them would say, "I don't personally mind, but I can imagine that some customers

0:11:41feel bad."

0:11:42So therefore, the overall effect of your strategy is negative or could be better if you did

0:11:47suggestions X, Y, and Z.

0:11:50What I thought was interesting is that I actually heard from a handful of other people with

0:11:57some degree of internet fame or some sizable audience who also have similar quick skimming

0:12:04and very little replying policies,

0:12:07or some of them you don't even read the emails anymore.

0:12:10So I heard from a number of people, a few people,

0:12:13who were in a similar situation

0:12:16and who did basically the same thing,

0:12:18but you can't really come out

0:12:20and say that publicly a lot of the time.

0:12:22Like it's kind of like saying you're an atheist

0:12:24or a Howard Stern fan.

0:12:25Like there's a lot of them out there,

0:12:28but no one's talking about it really,

0:12:29'cause it can be politically unwise

0:12:31to say this in public to everybody all the time.

0:12:34But you'd be surprised how many people

0:12:38do the exact same policy, or a very similar one,

0:12:40or an even more ruthless one.

0:12:42- You have to, otherwise, like you said,

0:12:45you'll spend a very large amount of your time

0:12:47conversing with people.

0:12:48And a lot of the people who thought

0:12:50it was an overall bad policy,

0:12:53because despite the good parts of it,

0:12:55which they would acknowledge in terms of

0:12:56how you manage, giving you more time to do other things,

0:12:58they would say, "Here are the bad parts,

0:12:59and here's why it doesn't balance out, they would suggest alternatives.

0:13:04It was the same thing you get with feature requests.

0:13:07If only you would just...

0:13:08If only you would just... and then whatever.

0:13:12And all the "if only you would just" didn't seem like they would solve the problem.

0:13:18If only you would just... would solve that person's problem.

0:13:20If only you would just tweet about the problems.

0:13:24Which by the way, I do.

0:13:25I know.

0:13:26Although you've done more recently than in the past.

0:13:28If only you would just have a blog about the problem.

0:13:31If only you would just have a mailing list.

0:13:32If only you would just have a public blog tracker.

0:13:34If only you would just have a blog.

0:13:38But each one of those things, this person would be like, "Well, I don't use Twitter,

0:13:41so you tweeting about it doesn't help me at all.

0:13:42I don't want any more email, so a mailing list isn't going to help you.

0:13:45I would never join up.

0:13:47I would never find your blog, or I don't like to read your blog, so if you put updates there,

0:13:50it's not going to..."

0:13:51That's what it comes down to with all of these centralized places where you can communicate

0:13:57to your users because everybody has something they do or don't want to do.

0:14:02I don't want an email, I don't read Twitter, I don't want to read more blogs, I don't want

0:14:05to do this, I don't want to do that, right?

0:14:07To get them all, you would have to have all of those things.

0:14:09A Usenet group, a mailing list, a set of forums, a Twitter account that's kept up to date,

0:14:15a separate blog for it.

0:14:16And even then, someone would be like, "Oh, I don't use any of those things.

0:14:18Do you have an RSS feed?"

0:14:19"Oh, I don't use an RSS."

0:14:20Like, you will forever chase the individual people who have their specific needs of how

0:14:25you're going to communicate with them.

0:14:26And at that point it's like, well, now this is taking more time than just replying to the email.

0:14:29Like, there is, it's like the person who wants a feature in a piece of software, like,

0:14:34I don't need all the features in this program. You can cut every single feature except for these three,

0:14:37and then everyone picks a different three in this, you know, 3,000 pictures in it.

0:14:41So it's, a lot of people were trying to say, from your perspective, I see how this works out,

0:14:46but from my perspective, as an individual user, it sucks. And I see that, but it's like,

0:14:51If you look at the other side of it, you can't make it not suck for everybody.

0:14:56It's always going to suck for somebody, and sometimes that somebody is going to be you,

0:15:00or you, or you, you know what I mean?

0:15:03It's not like a no-win situation, but people looking for a solution that's going to make

0:15:07everybody happy, I just don't think it exists.

0:15:10The alternatives that people suggest, those all take time.

0:15:15If it comes to support tools, any kind of CRM thing, any kind of support service where

0:15:23it sorts your emails into threads for you and has multiple people working on it and

0:15:27stuff like that, any kind of email ticketing system, those all take work to plow through.

0:15:33You're just moving the work to something else.

0:15:35Forums, bugtrackers, public pages of any kind.

0:15:40Somebody recommended GitHub tracking.

0:15:42That's crazy, because regular people have no idea how to use GitHub and I don't blame

0:15:46them.

0:15:47You should have a Facebook group.

0:15:48I do have a Facebook group.

0:15:49I've posted zero times to it.

0:15:51And Facebook keeps telling me how people are engaging with it, and that they want me to

0:15:54pay them to let them engage more or something.

0:15:56I don't know.

0:15:57It's terrible.

0:15:58I don't know how to use Facebook.

0:15:59I even have a Pinterest group.

0:16:01I don't know how to use that either.

0:16:02But I have these channels.

0:16:04The only one I really use is Twitter to communicate with the users.

0:16:07I don't even have an overcast blog.

0:16:10And if I had one, nobody would read it.

0:16:12If I have the Twitter account, and I will tweet things in the Twitter account of current

0:16:17status updates, things I'm working on, known bugs, and then I'll have people tweet at me

0:16:23so I know they're using Twitter, I know they know about the account, I'll have them tweet

0:16:26at the account like three hours later, as if they had not seen what I posted three hours

0:16:32ago.

0:16:33Because they didn't.

0:16:34Because they didn't because they don't read their whole timeline.

0:16:35So could you repeat your tweets on the hour every hour but not so much so that the people

0:16:39who do read their timelines are annoyed by them?

0:16:41Exactly.

0:16:42not a good medium for keeping people updated, but everything else that's out there would

0:16:48take more time, it would be one more thing to do, two more things to do, more things

0:16:52to update, and overall probably more work, and there would still be hundreds of people

0:17:00who would blow right by that, not see it.

0:17:03I mean, look, on the part of the app where it lets you email me, it is surrounded by

0:17:09reasons why you don't need to email me anymore. Here's FAQs, here's what's coming up in the

0:17:13next version, here's what's in this version, here's the bug fixes, like here's the known

0:17:16bugs. That's all right there on that page, no one reads it and everyone just clicks the

0:17:19email and emails me things I already know about. That is, that's the reality, like,

0:17:24no matter what you do, you know, no one's gonna read everything you put out there, no

0:17:27one's gonna be aware of everything you put out there. No one is going to, is going to

0:17:32be able to look and say like, "Oh, well, I have now checked all the official Overcast

0:17:37communication channels, read back in the history by a few weeks to know everything there is

0:17:41to know that's currently going on, now I will email them.

0:17:44No, that doesn't happen.

0:17:45I don't expect people to do that, that's ridiculous.

0:17:48So no matter what you do, you are always going to get support email.

0:17:53And there are things I can do to reduce the amount of support email.

0:17:55Number one thing you can do to reduce the amount of support email is to get rid of the

0:17:59bugs they're complaining about.

0:18:01So that's what I'm doing.

0:18:02by a long shot, that is the best thing you can do

0:18:05to reduce support email is get rid of the problems

0:18:08they're talking about and give people ways

0:18:11to help themselves.

0:18:12Now, the latter is worth discussing,

0:18:15so give people ways to help themselves.

0:18:16Password resets, like make that easy.

0:18:21Any kind of like basic account management thing

0:18:23that they would have to email you for, make that easy.

0:18:25And I still have a little bit of ways to go on that.

0:18:28I don't currently have a way to change your password

0:18:31except by resetting it.

0:18:32I don't currently have a way to change

0:18:34your registered email address,

0:18:35just because I haven't built them yet,

0:18:36and like, hardly anybody ever asks,

0:18:39so it's kind of a low priority compared

0:18:40to other stuff I have to fix.

0:18:42So there's things like that,

0:18:44that I get occasional emails about.

0:18:46Then there's the big stuff.

0:18:47Hey, there's a sync bug.

0:18:49Or, hey, you know, you should really give me

0:18:51a delete preference.

0:18:53That's the stuff I need to tackle.

0:18:54That's like, and my time is so much better spent doing that

0:18:59than setting up a support ticketing system,

0:19:01and a knowledge base and a forum and a public bug tracker

0:19:04and all these and letting people vote on bugs.

0:19:05That's crazy.

0:19:07That's just so much more work and overhead

0:19:09and more things to manage and maintain.

0:19:11That's not really helping.

0:19:13- Well, that goes back to the value of those things.

0:19:16A couple of the people who were upset basically said,

0:19:20it takes me time and effort to isolate these bugs,

0:19:25to screenshot them, to find out how to report them,

0:19:29to make a bug report and to send it.

0:19:31And then I spend all that time and effort

0:19:33doing what is essentially help, I'm helping you, Marco.

0:19:35I'm spending my time to help you

0:19:37and then you're not even gonna send a reply.

0:19:39It makes me think that your time is more valuable.

0:19:42You're saying your time is more valuable than mine.

0:19:44And the fact of life is the amount of effort

0:19:48you put into something does not equate to its value.

0:19:51You can put a tremendous amount of effort into something

0:19:53and it just turns up not being valuable.

0:19:55Like you could try really hard to make a fancy meal

0:19:59and you just burn the whole thing.

0:20:01It's like, but I work so hard.

0:20:02It's like, yes, but the end result is just a burn thing.

0:20:05So if you work really hard to make an awesome bug report,

0:20:07unprompted by the way,

0:20:08it's not like you're demanding people send you bug reports,

0:20:10but you do this, you work really hard

0:20:12to make an awesome bug report, you send it.

0:20:15If you are the 900th person to send that exact bug report,

0:20:17the value of your bug report is very small.

0:20:20It is really just sort of a tick up on a counter.

0:20:22So Marco knows a lot of people are seeing this problem.

0:20:24You put a lot of work into it.

0:20:26Maybe if you were the first one, there would be value,

0:20:28But when you start multiplying it out,

0:20:31it's like, if you want any,

0:20:34you're never gonna have to commence your reply.

0:20:36Marco is never gonna spend as much time responding to yours

0:20:38as you spent sending it,

0:20:39because it's not just a one-on-one relationship

0:20:41between one person makes the software

0:20:43and one person uses it.

0:20:44It's one person makes it and lots of people use it, right?

0:20:46So Marco doesn't get 10,000 days to reply to the email

0:20:51that 10,000 users send in one day, right?

0:20:54And then your value of your email, it really depends.

0:20:58Like maybe it is super valuable,

0:20:59and I bet if it was super valuable,

0:21:01you're like, oh, I never could reproduce this bug,

0:21:03and I didn't understand what people are seeing,

0:21:05and now you sending me all this stuff, let's repit it.

0:21:06I bet Marco would reply to that,

0:21:08even though he says he doesn't reply to email.

0:21:09- No, I said I don't reply to most email.

0:21:11I do reply to things like that,

0:21:13and so I've been doing this beta test this past week,

0:21:16where I have about 800 beta testers

0:21:18through Apple's TestFlight thing,

0:21:19and I'm getting tons of email from those testers,

0:21:22and I'm answering as many as I possibly can

0:21:24out of that group, 'cause I know,

0:21:25that's like a separate group.

0:21:26That's like, I ask people to beta test,

0:21:29they are taking the time to install

0:21:31a relatively untested version on their device,

0:21:35and they are writing up bug reports and sending them to me,

0:21:38and I am actually doing a lot of responding on those.

0:21:41It's way above my regular rate of responses on that.

0:21:45It's probably over 50% that I'm responding to on those.

0:21:49And I honestly feel bad about the ones I'm not responding to

0:21:51out of the beta group, because that seems like

0:21:53it should have a higher standard.

0:21:55- Well, that's like 800 people,

0:21:56but when you did the beta on Glassboard,

0:21:58it was like, I don't know, 20 people or whatever it was?

0:22:02And you were responding to all of them

0:22:04because you kind of could 20 to one, right?

0:22:05And the value of the first 20 people ever

0:22:08to use the application besides Marco,

0:22:10their reports are much more valuable

0:22:12than the 700th person to send a sync bug, right?

0:22:16It doesn't mean there's no value to that thing,

0:22:18but you're never going to get a reply

0:22:21that makes you feel like the effort you spent

0:22:26wasn't in some ways wasted.

0:22:27Because in some ways it was wasted.

0:22:29You don't know whether it's gonna be wasted.

0:22:30You don't know if you were the very first person

0:22:31to send this bug report or the 900th.

0:22:34How can you know that?

0:22:34You don't know what other people are sending, right?

0:22:37So I don't think you can have expectations

0:22:38about this sort of many to one relationship

0:22:40because you don't know what's going on

0:22:41on the other end of it.

0:22:42And it feels bad when you send a bug report

0:22:44that you worked hard on

0:22:45and you don't get any kind of reply at all,

0:22:46which is why people are begging for like just something,

0:22:48anything, an automated reply.

0:22:50just like they're not asking you to spend them out of time

0:22:52they did, but they just want something.

0:22:54Like they're just desperate for something.

0:22:55Of course, if you gave them that something,

0:22:56they would say, I just need something a little bit more.

0:22:59Like this automated reply makes me feel like you don't care

0:23:01about my email, maybe just a personal note,

0:23:04because I spent so much time on this.

0:23:06And it just, I think that relationship is never gonna work

0:23:08out where you want a response that makes you feel good

0:23:12about the effort you spent.

0:23:13And it's like, well then fine, I won't report bugs.

0:23:15Like that's a problem Marco will have to deal with.

0:23:16If suddenly no one reports bugs anymore,

0:23:19or he gets only bad bug reports,

0:23:20then he will actually have to take time to address it.

0:23:23But that's, you don't know what's happening on the other side

0:23:25so you can't say that Marco has to do that.

0:23:26It seems like he's getting enough bug reports and feedback.

0:23:30- Yeah, you know, I already lost the exact words you used,

0:23:32but you said something along the lines of,

0:23:35you can't have expectations for what Marco did

0:23:37and the relationship between you and Marco

0:23:39is just some random, you know, bug reporter.

0:23:41And I think that's absolutely true.

0:23:42And one of the things that,

0:23:43one of the more common themes that was angry

0:23:47that I saw of the feedback that all of us got was,

0:23:50how could you not respond to this?

0:23:52It only takes a moment to fire off an email,

0:23:54be it automated or whatever.

0:23:56And what I don't think people understand,

0:23:58and this was the point in me bringing up that story

0:24:00about me going to New York and me not understanding

0:24:04why Marco didn't remember having read that email I sent him,

0:24:07was I didn't understand the sheer volume of email

0:24:11that someone in Marco's position can get.

0:24:14And it wasn't until I got a lot of email through this show

0:24:18that I started to understand it.

0:24:19And maybe some of these people that wrote us very angry

0:24:22about this do understand it, but I suspect that

0:24:26unless you're in a position where you're getting

0:24:29hundreds of unsolicited emails a day

0:24:31that are not outright spam,

0:24:33they're emails that you should probably be reading,

0:24:35then it's hard to pass judgment on what any one of us,

0:24:39particularly Marco, should do.

0:24:41Because I find it challenging to keep up

0:24:44with just ATP email, and that's a drop in the bucket

0:24:46compared to what Marco's getting from Overcast.

0:24:50So I think you're absolutely right, Jon.

0:24:52In any case, we should talk about something that's awesome.

0:24:55And if I'm not mistaken, this is a particularly awesome

0:24:58something that's awesome, is that right?

0:25:00- This episode is sponsored by Cards Against Humanity.

0:25:03Now, they didn't want us to read a typical sponsor ad.

0:25:06What they did instead was send Jon a toaster.

0:25:11(laughing)

0:25:13This is really happening.

0:25:14I cannot believe this is really happening.

0:25:16- So John, all they wanted to do for this ad read

0:25:20was for you to review this toaster

0:25:23compared to your, you know, the toaster.

0:25:25- Well hold on, hold on.

0:25:26Can we set the stage here since this is the first one?

0:25:28What is the toaster and what is the particular

0:25:34reviewed toaster?

0:25:36- There's already not enough time for me to review

0:25:38this toaster in a typical ad read slot.

0:25:40So I don't think we can go too much into context.

0:25:42So I think save for the after show, I will talk more about this toaster, but the context

0:25:48is that I did a podcast, a Wally Wilko hypercritical.

0:25:51One episode I talked about my difficulty finding a toaster that I found satisfying in response

0:25:56to that episode.

0:25:57A bunch of nice people got me as a sort of joke gift at WWDC, a fancy toaster that I

0:26:03probably would not have bought myself.

0:26:06And that's the one I'm using right now.

0:26:07That's the context of it.

0:26:09That's why it's funny to apparently send me toasters to review.

0:26:12So I have received a toaster.

0:26:15It is the Black & Decker TO1303SB.

0:26:23I just want to note that the model number has both a capital O and a zero in it.

0:26:32This is a four slice toaster.

0:26:34And by the way, these are all toaster ovens.

0:26:37Please do not send me things about "I should get a slot toaster."

0:26:40I know about slot toasters.

0:26:41Again, on the episodes, yes, I know all about them.

0:26:43Slot toasters do not double as ovens.

0:26:45I'm only interested in toaster ovens.

0:26:47You may be interested in slot toasters.

0:26:49That's great, get a slot toaster.

0:26:50They're really nice.

0:26:51Anyway, toaster ovens.

0:26:52This one, let's talk about the good things first.

0:26:55It toasts bread reasonably evenly.

0:26:57(laughing)

0:26:59This is a big thing because a lot of them have like hot spots

0:27:02and you'd get, you know, one side is pale

0:27:04and one side is over toasted.

0:27:05It toasts them in about the same speed as my fancy toaster.

0:27:08We'll have the model number of my fancy toaster

0:27:09and a link to it in the show notes as well.

0:27:11So speed wise, it's good.

0:27:13Capacity wise, it is a smaller toaster,

0:27:16but you know, size like it's not a fault for it.

0:27:19It takes up less room on the countertop.

0:27:20It's also small on the inside, that's fine.

0:27:23It is relatively quiet.

0:27:25You'd be surprised that the noises toasters make,

0:27:27particularly when you just turn them on,

0:27:28they make kind of like a transformer wine,

0:27:31kind of like, meh.

0:27:31- Is that what that is?

0:27:33'Cause yeah, they all kind of like have that buzz.

0:27:35- It's not.

0:27:36Someone, Dr. Drangenreisen tells what it is.

0:27:38I don't know, maybe it's an inverter or something,

0:27:39Whatever it is, the sound gets lower as the thing heats up.

0:27:42So it's only the beginning of this one,

0:27:43it's admirably quiet.

0:27:45This one does have a thing that ticks,

0:27:47a sort of a ticking countdown thing

0:27:49until it gets to the end.

0:27:50- Like a bomb?

0:27:52- Yeah, basically.

0:27:53Listen to the hyper-critical episode of me complaining

0:27:56about the ticking thing.

0:27:58But this is at least is a very quiet tick, right?

0:28:00And the oven, I use this thing for toast

0:28:04and for warming stuff up and for cooking things,

0:28:05the oven part seems to work fine.

0:28:08Overall, it's pretty good.

0:28:08The bad things about it are some of the same bad things

0:28:11about most modern toasters.

0:28:13This thing has three dials on the front of it

0:28:15and to toast anything, you have to put the top dial to toast.

0:28:18You have to put the middle dial to toast

0:28:20and you have to put the bottom dial

0:28:21to the amount that you want to toast it.

0:28:23And dials, oh, these are not good dials.

0:28:26Dials, these dials are completely smooth

0:28:31and have like a little, you know,

0:28:33a thing showing you where it's supposed to be pointing

0:28:35on the top of the dial, but they're raised like an inch off

0:28:38so you can't tell quite where it's aiming.

0:28:39And that's important because anything with a dial,

0:28:41you have to turn it to a degree that you memorize,

0:28:4436 degrees, 37 degrees, 38, whatever it is

0:28:46the amount that exactly toasts the bread

0:28:48to the darkness that you want.

0:28:50And every time you toast a piece of bread,

0:28:52you have to turn the dial that exact amount.

0:28:53If you're off by a little bit,

0:28:55it won't be toasted enough or it'll be toasted too much

0:28:56before the thing goes off.

0:28:58This is a terrible design for toasters.

0:29:01Remember when they used to be when we were kids,

0:29:03you would have a darkness knob that you could set

0:29:04and then you'd press a little thing down

0:29:07and then it would pop up when it's done, right?

0:29:08Like the little things?

0:29:09- Yes, you could set the way you liked it and be repeatable.

0:29:13- Right, and then it's just like one after the other,

0:29:15down, down, down, down, down.

0:29:16This thing with the knob, it's just not good at all.

0:29:18And then having to set the other three knobs,

0:29:20if you have the top knob set to the wrong thing

0:29:21or the middle knob set to the wrong thing,

0:29:23you can turn that toasting to the right degree,

0:29:25but it won't do the right thing,

0:29:26because oh, you didn't realize it was on bake or something.

0:29:28And if you wanna use the bake thing,

0:29:29you've gotta turn the bottom dial to the stay on setting

0:29:32and then do the top two dials.

0:29:34It's like, how freaking complicated can you make this?

0:29:37They only have a little bit of an area for UI.

0:29:39Like, I don't know how you can go this far wrong

0:29:42with the toaster interface.

0:29:44So performance-wise, this toaster gets the job done.

0:29:48In fact, I was really nicely surprised

0:29:50by how well it did all the jobs

0:29:51as well as my big fancy toaster.

0:29:53But user interface-wise, this is not good at all.

0:29:56- And it's worth pointing out too

0:29:57that this is, on Amazon currently, it's $43,

0:30:00which is very inexpensive for a toaster oven brand new.

0:30:04You know, the fancy ones, like the one you have,

0:30:06are about $200.

0:30:08So for $43, that's a pretty good buy.

0:30:10- Yeah, and I would say the build quality

0:30:11of this $50 toaster embarrasses my $200 toaster

0:30:15in some areas.

0:30:16So Black & Becker does make very solid,

0:30:19like even the dials, which I don't like

0:30:20because they're smooth and don't have a way

0:30:22for you to tell where you're pointing

0:30:24because the pointing thing is so far off the surface,

0:30:26the dials on this one feel better

0:30:27than the dials on my $200 toaster,

0:30:29which I complained about when I talked about that toaster.

0:30:31Right, there just shouldn't be this many dials

0:30:33and it shouldn't be this complicated to use this thing.

0:30:36- What's your final verdict?

0:30:37- He loved it.

0:30:37- I mean, how many toasters have I had in my life?

0:30:42I'm not the wire cutter here.

0:30:43I've had my old toaster.

0:30:44I had my old toaster that I replaced with the fancy toaster.

0:30:47I like my fancy toaster better than this,

0:30:49but my fancy toaster is like four times the price.

0:30:51So it damn well better be better than this.

0:30:53My fancy toaster is probably not four times better than this

0:30:55but you know, of all the toasters I've used in my life,

0:30:58This is the second best, but the interface is still terrible.

0:31:01Well, thank you very much to Cards Against Humanity.

0:31:05This is entirely their idea.

0:31:06Thank you very much to Cards Against Humanity

0:31:08for sponsoring our show.

0:31:11God, such a funny idea.

0:31:13I don't even know where to go from here.

0:31:15Are we done?

0:31:15Is that it?

0:31:17That guy should have been the sweet home, not the wire cutter.

0:31:19Sorry, I'm not good at my brand.

0:31:22Real time follow.

0:31:23Yeah.

0:31:25No one in the chat room caught it.

0:31:26Someone in the chat room did say,

0:31:27I don't understand why he's not using a slot toaster,

0:31:29for crying out loud.

0:31:30How much preamble do I have to give for people not to?

0:31:33I understand what a slot toaster is.

0:31:35I know all about it.

0:31:36We're not talking about, I just, I can't,

0:31:39you cannot get the, the slot toaster people

0:31:40are just unstoppable.

0:31:43- Why would you want a slot toaster?

0:31:45I don't even understand. - But they're fine

0:31:46if you want a slot toaster, it's good, but you can't--

0:31:48- No, they're ter, they're worse at everything.

0:31:50- Yeah. - They're not, no,

0:31:51they're better at toast.

0:31:52- No. - They're better,

0:31:52you can toast, you can toast faster,

0:31:54and they have a thing that you press down,

0:31:56Like if you just want to make toast,

0:31:58I think slot toasters are better.

0:31:59- And as long as you never want to toast anything

0:32:01that is crumbly or thick or non-symmetrical on both sides.

0:32:04- Yes, you would have to have a toaster oven as well.

0:32:07But if you have a very large kitchen

0:32:08and with a lot of counter space,

0:32:10then you can have a toaster oven, a slot toaster,

0:32:12a convection oven, a microwave oven,

0:32:13dual ovens in the walls, like whatever.

0:32:15I do not have that kitchen.

0:32:16- Seven ovens, at various shapes and sizes.

0:32:19Many different knob types on the front.

0:32:21- I love that all these people in the chat room

0:32:23are going berserk about the slot toasters.

0:32:24Yes, they may be plainly superior for toasting, like Jon said, but I still do.

0:32:28I won't concede that point.

0:32:29Well, I'm not saying that's true, but if you let's let's take it as writ that that is true.

0:32:34Even if that is true, there's so many gazillions of things you can do with a toaster oven that you can't do with a frickin' slot toaster.

0:32:41Now, if I had a big kitchen, I would have both. But I do not have a big kitchen, so I don't have both. That's it.

0:32:45Oh, man, this show took a turn that I wasn't expecting.

0:32:47Oh, man.

0:32:49Do we have any actual topics for the week?

0:32:51Who just added this? Did you just add the net neutrality thing?

0:32:54Marco did.

0:32:55I hope one of you knows something about it.

0:32:57Well, I just have an incredibly under-informed opinion like usual.

0:33:02Oh, well, nothing changes.

0:33:05So the FCC released an announcement of some kind of... what exactly did they do? Just

0:33:10an announcement of what they want to do, or...?

0:33:13That's why I didn't pay enough attention to it, because A, I still cynically assume that

0:33:17that we're being screwed just now in a more hard to detect way. And B, I didn't think

0:33:22this announcement had anything to do with like, "We would really like this to happen,"

0:33:25and then the political realities will kick in and nothing will actually happen.

0:33:28Right. So basically, to give some very under-informed background on this topic, the FCC, which is

0:33:36responsible for regulating US telecom and broadband and stuff like that, they have previously

0:33:42classified broadband as a data service rather than a telecom service. For telecom services,

0:33:52like the phone lines to your house, there's much more strict regulations over how much

0:33:58control the carriers are allowed to exert over that, how much they're allowed to screw

0:34:02people and put limits and controls and interfere with what's being telegraphed over the lines,

0:34:07things like that. Internet service, by almost any kind of common sense definition, sounds

0:34:14like that. If you ask people, "Should internet service be regulated like phone service in

0:34:22these ways?" Most people would say, "Yes, that makes sense. Of course it should be."

0:34:26It hasn't been yet. The FCC has tried a couple of little things to kind of half-picks it

0:34:31a little bit, like to say, "Well, we want you to have net neutrality most of the time,

0:34:37we're not going to go all the way and classify you as this." And then they get sued by the

0:34:42ISPs and then they have to roll that back. So generally speaking, the FCC has been very

0:34:48weak on this, and even like six months ago, recently, the chairman Tom Wheeler basically

0:34:55came out and said that he didn't think they need to reclassify it the way phone lines

0:34:59are. A few weeks after that, President Obama made some statement about it, about how he

0:35:06He was basically opposing the FCC chairman, who I think ostensibly he appointed, right?

0:35:11Sounds right.

0:35:12Obama basically politically overrode, not legally, but he politically said, "I think

0:35:19differently on this," very publicly.

0:35:21And then, of course, the geek population like us is very strongly against the FCC's previous

0:35:27position.

0:35:28We want it to be regulated the way phone service is.

0:35:31Title II is, and I don't know all the details of what parts of Title II, all of it, none

0:35:36of it, but anyway.

0:35:38So you had the situation where the FCC says one thing, Obama a few weeks or months later

0:35:43says another thing, and then it came up again in the State of the Union address last month

0:35:47where Obama talked about again how he was on the side of net neutrality, which was directly

0:35:52contradicting the FCC's most recent statements.

0:35:55This week, FCC Chairman Tom Wheeler comes out and says, "Oh, I changed my mind.

0:36:00We're gonna try to, we're gonna seek this classification now.

0:36:04And this guy, he has previous ties to the cable industry, and it's up for debate to

0:36:08what degree that is, but he does have some previous ties to the cable industry.

0:36:11Wasn't he a lobbyist for the cable industry?

0:36:14Something, it was kind of, it was a little bit less severe than that in practice, but

0:36:19it's like, there's some kind of connection there.

0:36:22So he comes from the cable industry, so having him be the head of the FCC is kind of suspect,

0:36:26suspects, well why wouldn't he just fight for the rights of the people who previously

0:36:31employed him and will probably employ him in the future.

0:36:34So anyway, that's the whole revolving door thing, that's a big problem.

0:36:37The problem is, he said one thing last year or whenever, all of a sudden the president

0:36:44says "I disagree" a few months later, "Oh, the FCC is now seeking something else."

0:36:49This feels a lot like just posturing and just empty promises because Obama said that whether

0:36:56he believes it or not, he said it because it was popular among his base, he kind of

0:36:59had to say it.

0:37:00Okay.

0:37:01He had to probably put pressure on Tom Wheeler to kind of get in line with him and his party

0:37:06and everything because that's kind of weird if your appointed FCC chairman is like directly

0:37:11disagreeing with the president and his policies, that's kind of weak.

0:37:15So it feels like posturing, it feels like putting on a good show for the voters.

0:37:22But what's going to happen, like nothing's going to change tomorrow.

0:37:26What's going to happen is the FCC might pursue this in some way, it's going to be going back

0:37:32and forth for months if not years of drafting what the rules will even be, and then try

0:37:38to put them in place.

0:37:39And then Verizon, Comcast, all the big ISPs are probably going to sue the FCC or sue the

0:37:45government to try to get these rules overturned.

0:37:48And that's going to go through courts for months or for years and possibly go to the

0:37:51Supreme Court eventually.

0:37:53This is going to be a long process, this is how the legal system works with this kind

0:37:56of stuff.

0:37:57It's going to be a very long process.

0:37:59And he can say whatever, Tom Wheeler can say whatever he wants today.

0:38:04He can say, "Oh, we're going to seek this, we're going to seek these rules."

0:38:06But over time those are going to be negotiated and weakened and possibly overturned by court

0:38:10decisions.

0:38:12So it's hard to say this really means a lot right now.

0:38:16This might turn into something good down the road, but it's going to be a very long time

0:38:20before in all likelihood before anything really can come of it if anything comes it comes of it at all and what will probably

0:38:27happen which is what happens most of the time with these kind of moves is

0:38:30It'll probably be watered down or completely thrown out before before it ever takes effect and the public won't notice

0:38:37We would have moved on to some other stupid PR thing. So you're looking forward to it and you're sure it's going to work

0:38:44That's it. I'm so cynical about these things because like just even if you don't know any of the details

0:38:50The broad strokes are that you in your thing are roughly

0:38:55you know a

0:38:57Roughly correct like that the person Obama appointed to the FCC chairperson did not

0:39:04Like he campaigned on the idea of like don't you know it was against the revolving door don't take people from?

0:39:11Industries and then appoint them to regulate the industries that they came from and are going back to that's a bad thing

0:39:16It's the anti pattern to use our lingo

0:39:18We shouldn't do that and then did that it ostensibly did that same thing with the FCC chairman, although

0:39:24MTW in the chat room says that this is not the case at all

0:39:28And I don't know what we're getting wrong about that

0:39:30But like it was an industry person, right?

0:39:32It doesn't mean all people who were in the industry are bad or evil or whatever

0:39:35It just means like it's kind of other things like if there's an appearance of impropriety

0:39:38like try to avoid even the appearance rather than you know going on an individual basis like just you know, you know, I mean like so

0:39:46You know that the optics of this were bad

0:39:49You took someone from the industry and you and you put them in charge of something that has a big influence on the industry

0:39:53You say well this person is upstanding

0:39:55They're not going to be influenced and even if they do go back to work the industry doesn't make a difference like just the appearance

0:39:59Of it is not good, right?

0:40:00So that starts off on the wrong foot and then to see that person say things in that position

0:40:06that make the telecom and cable industries happy.

0:40:11If you are regulating an industry,

0:40:14if you're doing things that make the industry

0:40:16you're regulating happy,

0:40:17you're probably doing your job wrong.

0:40:20No matter what it is,

0:40:21like if you are in charge of regulating

0:40:23the food safety industry,

0:40:26if you're in charge of regulating trucking,

0:40:28if you're in anything,

0:40:29like no matter what you are in charge of regulating,

0:40:32if the companies or the industries you're regulating

0:40:35are happy about what you're doing,

0:40:36it is almost certainly the wrong thing to do,

0:40:38unless maybe you're rolling back another regulation

0:40:41that was like, went too far or whatever.

0:40:43But like, if they're happy,

0:40:45it's, you know, especially with these giant industries

0:40:48that have near monopolies like telecom,

0:40:51if they are happy, something is wrong.

0:40:53Because they are never happy about things

0:40:55that help consumers.

0:40:56They're always happy about things

0:40:58that make them more powerful and that screw consumers.

0:41:01So that like, you don't even need to get into nippy details

0:41:05and theories about the free market or whatever,

0:41:07all you have to do is say, is Verizon happy?

0:41:10Is AT&T happy?

0:41:11Do they love this?

0:41:12Then it's almost certainly the wrong thing to do.

0:41:14Now you have to balance it.

0:41:16You say like, well, you're not gonna make them miserable,

0:41:18but you can't just regulate them to death

0:41:21and strangle the industries, but believe me,

0:41:22no one is strangling telecom.

0:41:24Like now we can't have any telecom companies.

0:41:27All telecom companies have closed up shop.

0:41:29They're just leaving their wires, hanging in the trees,

0:41:31and just no one's gonna use them anymore

0:41:32because it's over-regulated.

0:41:34No, the direction everything has been going in this country

0:41:36has been decreasing regulation,

0:41:38which has good size and bad size.

0:41:40And again, you can talk about the details,

0:41:41but just as a general rule of thumb,

0:41:44you don't even need to look at consumers.

0:41:46Don't say, "Are consumers happy?"

0:41:47'Cause consumers don't know what's going on.

0:41:49These things all happen behind closed doors.

0:41:50Consumers have no idea that it's happening.

0:41:51Consumers have no idea what the effects are,

0:41:53but if the industry loves it, stop.

0:41:55Stop and look and say, "Wait a second, they love this.

0:41:58What the hell are we doing?

0:41:58Our job is, they should hate us.

0:42:00Our job, it's like being the principal at a school,

0:42:02like, or the assistant principal.

0:42:03Like if everybody loves you,

0:42:05you're not imposing enough discipline, right?

0:42:08Not everybody doesn't have to hate you,

0:42:09but if everyone's like,

0:42:10"Yeah, everything you do is awesome, woo!"

0:42:12Like, you know, that's not a regular,

0:42:16same, you know, or parenting.

0:42:17Like if your kids love every decision you make,

0:42:19you're probably failing them as a parent,

0:42:22or you have a perfect child, which could happen.

0:42:24Anyway, that's how I feel about this thing.

0:42:28So that's why I don't get too caught up in the details,

0:42:30and maybe I'm too cynical about it.

0:42:32I think I did, you know, every time this comes up,

0:42:34I do do whatever things they have online to like,

0:42:36oh, send a letter to your Congress person,

0:42:40send, put a comment on the, you know, request for comments.

0:42:42I do all that stuff.

0:42:43So I'm not so cynical that I think I can't participate

0:42:45in the process and everything.

0:42:46And of course, you know, I vote and the people I vote for

0:42:50are as close as possible to being in agreement with me

0:42:53on positions like this.

0:42:54But it's, in many cases, it's just simply impossible

0:42:57because there are stupid two party systems

0:42:58to find any candidate who agrees with you

0:43:01even remotely on some issues like this,

0:43:03but you do what you can, but anyway, I don't know.

0:43:07I guess we'll just wait and see.

0:43:09- All right, so let's move on real quick.

0:43:11We hear that Apple may or may not be involved

0:43:15in a mapping service.

0:43:17Do you want to talk about this, John?

0:43:19- I put it in there because it was on Loop Insight

0:43:24and it wasn't Dalrymple that said it,

0:43:26but like when I saw these stories, it's like,

0:43:28"Oh, someone has some random spy shot of a van with crap on top of it, and they say it's from Apple."

0:43:34And then I, you know, I saw that story. I'm like, "Yeah, whatever. I don't, you know, I don't really pay attention."

0:43:41And then I saw that the loop had it, and I went to it hoping it would be Dalrymple giving one of his yuppernopes.

0:43:48And I was expecting it to be a nope, because I don't think Apple's working on self-driving cars.

0:43:53But he didn't even write it, so there's no thing one way or the other.

0:43:57But I feel like he would want to write that was that Sean King that did that one

0:43:59I feel like if you knew he would have grabbed that one and thrown in a note, but he didn't

0:44:03And but the story did point out and I think it is a much more plausible theory

0:44:08This is not Apple self-driving cars

0:44:10This is just Apple's answer to Street View which we've talked about in many past shows the episode numbers of which I absolutely cannot remember

0:44:16about

0:44:18things that Apple's bad at and one of them is the audacity to do something like Google Street View where it's like we have overhead maps

0:44:24and everything but wouldn't it be great if we could have

0:44:27Street level views of stuff and like well, how are you gonna get street-level views everything?

0:44:30well, what if we just put cameras on top of cars and drive them on every road in the entire United States and

0:44:34That's something that would come up in a Google meeting. They would say, alright, let's do that

0:44:38And by the way, it's scan every book in existence

0:44:40but anyway get those cars on the road and drive it, you know, whereas Apple Apple is not an organization that

0:44:47Does things like that that conceives things like that and that executes them?

0:44:52But when they took up on the job of doing maps, it's like well

0:44:56It's gonna take you a long time to catch up to Google and maps if you ever do and you don't have anything like Streetview

0:45:01And if you want something that Streetview Google's not gonna give it to you

0:45:03You're gonna have to do what they did which is really hard

0:45:05So I desperately hope that that is an Apple

0:45:09equivalent of Street View car

0:45:11Piloting a program that's going to use some of that

0:45:137878 billion dollars to drive on every road in the United States eventually every road in the world taking pictures of everything

0:45:19- And that their pictures will be higher resolution

0:45:21than Google's because they do it later

0:45:23with better technology and all that stuff.

0:45:24I desperately hope that's what it is

0:45:26and not just some cleaning van with weird stuff on the roof.

0:45:29- Yeah, me too, because it is,

0:45:31it's unfortunate that there are these handful

0:45:35of major areas where Apple and Apple's customers

0:45:40are still really dependent on Google for things.

0:45:41And obviously Apple does not really want it to be that way

0:45:45if they can help it.

0:45:46And some of these, like web search,

0:45:48general purpose web search of find this phrase

0:45:51on the entire internet.

0:45:53I don't think Apple's gonna tackle that.

0:45:54Somebody posted there was a job posting

0:45:55for Apple search on some Apple job site.

0:45:59- They just want you to be able to find a game

0:46:00on the App Store and stuff.

0:46:01- Yeah, right?

0:46:02- Keyword spammers.

0:46:03- Yeah, I mean like, I don't think the Apple search thing

0:46:06was about web search.

0:46:06I think it's just like searching other things

0:46:08that Apple needs to be searchable.

0:46:11But the certain areas of maps and Street View

0:46:15is probably the biggest one.

0:46:16The mapping data is pretty close now.

0:46:21Obviously this will vary depending on where you live, but I have found Apple's mapping

0:46:24data to be pretty good.

0:46:26The biggest problems I have with Apple Maps that still exist today are lack of street

0:46:31view and that the business listings are pretty weak compared to Google's.

0:46:35The Google's are not perfect.

0:46:37A lot of people say, "Oh, well Apple's business listings once brought me to some

0:46:41terrible out of date listing of this thing that didn't exist anymore or wasn't there,

0:46:45moved or whatever. Google's business data is not perfect either. This is kind of like

0:46:50when people try a different cellular carrier and they forget how bad their other one was

0:46:55or how spotty or inconsistent it was in certain areas and they run back and then forget about

0:46:59how bad it, you know, it's kind of like grass is always greener but with a little bit longer

0:47:04term memory involved. And so like, just like no cellular carrier including your beloved

0:47:10Verizon everybody is actually consistently great everywhere.

0:47:15Similar to that, no mapping data for many of these services is consistently perfect,

0:47:20and no business place name data is consistently perfect from these places.

0:47:25Certainly I think Google's is still better.

0:47:27Again, neither of these are perfect.

0:47:30Google's is still better.

0:47:31And anything Apple can do to close that gap with the business data and to provide the

0:47:34missing features like Street View, that is very beneficial to them.

0:47:40Strategically, long term, I think they need to do things like that.

0:47:44They need to get total independence from the need for Google services on their devices.

0:47:49They've come very far.

0:47:50They're almost there in many areas, but there's still a few things that they're really stuck

0:47:56with.

0:47:57I think Street View and good map business place data is probably up there.

0:48:02- Do you think that the people who are zealots

0:48:06about slot-loaded toasters are the same Verizon people

0:48:10that won't shut up?

0:48:11- You know, people with slot-loaded toasters are so bad.

0:48:14You can't reheat a slice of pizza worth anything in there.

0:48:18- Yeah, that's so true.

0:48:19Why don't you tell us about something that's cool?

0:48:21- Our second sponsor this week is Fracture.

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0:48:36I have, let's see, five, yeah,

0:48:38I have five within view right now.

0:48:40These are great prints.

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0:49:05If you're an adult and you're decorating a room as an adult,

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0:49:13You want it to look nice, right?

0:49:15And so, generally the way you do that

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0:49:20You can do custom framing, that's very expensive.

0:49:23And with Fracture, this is great, Fracture prints,

0:49:26like they're borderless, because it goes edge to edge

0:49:28with the picture printed on the backside

0:49:30of this thin piece of glass and then mounted on cardboard.

0:49:33Anyway, so it looks like the picture is just right there

0:49:35on the glass, because it is literally printed

0:49:38on the backside of the glass.

0:49:39So, fracture prints look so good,

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0:50:51- Yeah, you know, I just wanted to pipe in real quickly

0:50:53that we talk so often about the 5x5 sized ones,

0:50:56but we've gotten a couple of the,

0:50:59I think they call them regular size.

0:51:02It's pretty wide, I'd say like a foot,

0:51:04foot and a half wide and maybe a foot tall.

0:51:07And those look beautiful as well.

0:51:09It's not just the tiny ones.

0:51:11So don't feel like you eliminate,

0:51:13you should limit yourself just to those.

0:51:15But they really do look amazing, like Marco said.

0:51:17- Yeah, the big ones,

0:51:18I have two of the big ones above my monitor.

0:51:20It's, oh, I love them, I just love them.

0:51:21Oh, that's true.

0:51:22I forgot those were fractures.

0:51:24Yeah, that's a good call.

0:51:25All right, so we had a question from listener Ben,

0:51:27which I thought was kind of interesting.

0:51:29And he said, "Would really like to hear more

0:51:33about the Overcast backend someday

0:51:35as an example of what it takes to run a modern app beyond what

0:51:38you upload to the App Store.

0:51:40There's a lot of places to learn about how to design

0:51:42and code an app, but most examples are standalone.

0:51:44And Overcast has some really interesting infrastructure

0:51:46behind it, and it seems like it could be a good example.

0:51:49For example, where do you host the VPSs and why?

0:51:52How much will the Go switch end up saving,

0:51:54although I think you've talked about that a bit,

0:51:56and what other tools are in use?

0:51:58- Yeah, I mean, I don't wanna go too far into this.

0:52:01It's probably gonna be boring, but I host at Linode,

0:52:04and I've used a lot of web hosts over the years, a lot.

0:52:08I mean, I've been hosting stuff on web hosts since 2000,

0:52:13so it's, over the years, web hosting business

0:52:16has a lot of companies come and go.

0:52:18Technology changes over time.

0:52:21I've probably been at 10, 15 hosts over that time.

0:52:25And through big and small, through my own personal site

0:52:27all the way up to Tumblr scale

0:52:29and a lot of things in between,

0:52:30Linode is overall the best host I've used.

0:52:34And there are certain areas in which other hosts are better,

0:52:37but Linode, this past fall, they did a major hardware upgrade

0:52:42where they upgraded the speeds of all their base systems

0:52:46and their networking and they changed their plans a little bit.

0:52:49And it is now an incredibly good deal for the power that you get.

0:52:55Before that it was a decent deal, but it wasn't amazing.

0:52:57Now it's really a very strong value.

0:53:00So Linode, compared to other kinds of hostings, Linode is VPSs only, and I think they're all

0:53:06unmanaged.

0:53:07I don't know if they offer unmanaged servers.

0:53:08It doesn't matter.

0:53:09I use unmanaged, so it doesn't matter to me.

0:53:12meaning that it's all on you to take care of everything, whereas managed means there's

0:53:17people monitoring it and trying to do first-level troubleshooting. Is that all correct?

0:53:22Yeah, and so for a while, in the early days of Davidville and Tumblr, we had managed servers

0:53:28at Rackspace. And Rackspace at the time, I mean this was 2006, 2007, so I don't know

0:53:35how it is now. At the time, they were really considered the best of the business for managed

0:53:40servers and I think they only sold managed servers at the time so they were very expensive.

0:53:44It was like $800 a month for a server, for like a mid-range server which was very expensive.

0:53:49Even back then it was very expensive.

0:53:52We had managed that and what I found overall, what it promises is things like, "Well,

0:53:57if your disks fill up we'll notice that and we'll go in there and clean it up."

0:54:01Or if your database is being hammered by some runaway processor or some terrible query on

0:54:06something, we can go in and optimize it for you and fix it.

0:54:10In practice, that was spotty.

0:54:12That was very inconsistent.

0:54:13The quality of service we got from that was inconsistent.

0:54:16Most of the time, it was ultimately on us to fix the problem.

0:54:20It was like, well they could tell us, "Oh, well your problem is you have a lot of requests

0:54:25coming in."

0:54:26It's like, well, yeah, thanks.

0:54:30Most of the time, it wasn't particularly useful.

0:54:34And maybe that's just because we were programmers, so we knew how to do the basics of system

0:54:38administration.

0:54:39need them to install Apache for us, stuff like that.

0:54:42We could figure that out on our own.

0:54:45So it depends on what skill level you need.

0:54:49These days, if you need more hand-holding from them

0:54:53and you need them to do more things for you,

0:54:55these days you're probably not looking at servers at all.

0:54:57You're probably looking at managed cloud services,

0:54:59which have higher abstraction and everything else.

0:55:03That's kind of another story.

0:55:04The industry's very different these days than it was in 2006.

0:55:06But basically I use Linode because it has a very, very good value and a surprisingly

0:55:13good control panel.

0:55:17Web hosting control panels are kind of like non-Igloo intranets.

0:55:22Oh my god, web hosting control panels are usually so awful.

0:55:29It seems like every web host in the world is just totally incapable of making one that

0:55:34is remotely usable and even has ever been slightly thought out of how people actually

0:55:40use it, with a very small number of exceptions, and Linode is one of them.

0:55:44Digital Oceans is decent, but Linode is still by far more fully functional.

0:55:48I've tried other things, I've tried Digital Ocean, I've tried a couple of other ones.

0:55:52I keep coming back to Linode because it is just a really fantastic value for what it

0:55:58is, which is unmanaged VPSs.

0:56:02So if you need some other kind of server, some other kind of service, some other kind

0:56:05of hosting that's not an unmanaged VPS, I can't really help you because I haven't

0:56:10bought those.

0:56:11I don't really know what the market is like for those.

0:56:14The reason I do what I do is because I know enough about system administration that I

0:56:18can run my own servers.

0:56:20I know how to do it in a way that does not put a lot of burden on me.

0:56:23It's very low maintenance.

0:56:24Like I'm not being woken up in the middle of the night to deal with a server problem.

0:56:28I know how to do it now so that doesn't happen.

0:56:31And honestly it isn't that hard these days because servers are so freaking fast these

0:56:34days.

0:56:35And I use old boring tools like MySQL.

0:56:37So like MySQL, for all the crap it gets, I have never had a problem that was MySQL's

0:56:43fault.

0:56:44Ever.

0:56:45In all of Tumblr, all of Instapaper, everything I've done on the side between then, since

0:56:48then, and now all of Overcast.

0:56:50I have used MySQL so, and I've said this before on the show, I've used MySQL so heavily in

0:56:55so many different configurations.

0:56:57I've never had a problem that was MySQL's fault.

0:57:00I've never had MySQL wake me up in the middle of the night.

0:57:02I've never even had it crash in use.

0:57:04I've never seen the MySQL process crash.

0:57:08It's incredible.

0:57:09So if you are fairly conservative with your tools, if you use boring stuff like CentOS

0:57:14Linux and MySQL and PHP or Python, some kind of boring language that's been around for

0:57:20a while, you can be pretty good.

0:57:22You can be pretty safe and it can be pretty low involvement over time.

0:57:28You have some time to set it up and then you're done.

0:57:30And modern VPSs have these great tools for making custom setup images, cloning, point

0:57:36in time backups and branching and recovery, all this crazy stuff you can do now with all

0:57:40these cool virtualized services.

0:57:42It's way better than it used to be, it's way easier than it used to be, and it's way way

0:57:46cheaper than it used to be.

0:57:48So the reason I do it, even though there are all these cloud services that are also available

0:57:53now is for that cost.

0:57:57I send my own push notifications.

0:57:59If I had a service that sent push notifications, it would cost thousands of dollars a month

0:58:04for the volume I sent.

0:58:06Thousands.

0:58:07So much.

0:58:08For me to do it online, it would cost like $40 a month worth of server time, maybe at

0:58:12most, probably less than that.

0:58:14It's a massive deal.

0:58:15And it took me a day to figure out how to send them in code myself.

0:58:20It wasn't that big of a deal.

0:58:23So much of the stuff I feel like people shy away from because, and these are developers,

0:58:29you're able to make an app which is not easy.

0:58:32It's easy in the grand scheme of things.

0:58:34It's easier than doing manual labor all day and it's easier than solving cryptos or whatever.

0:58:40In the grand scheme of things, if you can figure out how to make software of any kind,

0:58:45you can administer basic stuff on a server.

0:58:48It's really not that hard.

0:58:49It might just be unfamiliar to you, but just like any language or platform or new API,

0:58:53you can learn it, it's not that big of a deal.

0:58:56You can save so much money and you can do so many powerful things once you are open

0:59:01to the idea of "You know what?

0:59:03Maybe I will let myself run a web service."

0:59:06The doors it opens for you, to me, are usually, the vast majority of the time, usually worth

0:59:12it for the time and stress and expense of running your own servers.

0:59:18- I have nothing to add to that.

0:59:21That's pretty straightforward.

0:59:25Now, would you mind recapping what the Go savings were

0:59:30when you changed the feed crawler to Go?

0:59:35- Yeah, it was like a couple hundred bucks a month.

0:59:37- That's significant, for sure.

0:59:38- Yeah, my total line-of-the-bill is, I gotta look,

0:59:41I'm still moving stuff around with images and everything.

0:59:44So one thing I do with Overcast is,

0:59:47because every podcast has the album artwork image

0:59:51that it defines in its feed.

0:59:54iTunes wants those to be 1400 pixels square,

0:59:57so they're huge.

0:59:58And because when dealing with arbitrary podcasts

1:00:01from arbitrary people, many people, many podcast producers,

1:00:06don't particularly optimize that file.

1:00:08So you might have this album artwork that's a meg,

1:00:12or it's a PNG when it's actually the photo,

1:00:15so it compresses very badly or something like that.

1:00:18Or it's a JPEG that they just saved on 12 quality.

1:00:24Sometimes you have these massive files.

1:00:26In the context of Overcast, I don't really need those.

1:00:28I need them only really as the iPad artwork.

1:00:31In every other context, things like search results, even just downloading things, you

1:00:35don't need the files to be that big.

1:00:37And a lot of times, people who subscribe to a lot of podcasts, they might have hundreds

1:00:41of megs worth of album artwork to download, and that's no good.

1:00:45So what I do as part of my hosting is I proxy and serve all album art images in Overcast

1:00:52through my own infrastructure.

1:00:54I resize the images to correct sizes that are actually needed by the app and I serve

1:00:59them through a CDN.

1:01:00So that's why when you search Overcast, if you do a search for like "add podcast"

1:01:04type in a keyword.

1:01:05Those thumbnails will load incredibly quickly.

1:01:09Way faster than if I was pulling in like the full size, mostly uncompressed versions from

1:01:14all the different feeds.

1:01:16I'm doing all that just to make things better.

1:01:18You know, and again, this is another advantage I have by having some kind of infrastructure

1:01:22in place, I can do that.

1:01:24So right now, I'm in the process of moving some stuff around, like that used to be on

1:01:28my own servers, now I'm trying out Imageix, but it's costing me a fortune, so I'm moving

1:01:32it to something else, and probably back on my own servers soon.

1:01:36So my costs are all in flux, but generally speaking, the Go transition saved me a lot

1:01:42of money and my next attempt for the image resizing is actually going to be based in

1:01:47Go and using this library called Vips, which I don't know anything about but apparently

1:01:51it like destroys everything else in image resizing performance. So if anybody knows

1:01:56anything about the Vips library for resizing images let me know. Fair enough. You're not

1:02:00going to try to install ImageMagick? ImageMagick is just, it is fine. I've used it a lot in

1:02:07the past. I built most of Tumblr's stuff against ImageMagick for the second revision when I

1:02:11when we added the ping and gif support.

1:02:15It's okay, ImageMagick is okay, ModernGD is okay.

1:02:19There are some bindings in PHP, some bindings in Go.

1:02:23It's okay, but overall ImageMagick is just not very fast.

1:02:27That's the biggest problem,

1:02:27and VIPs promises to be really, really fast.

1:02:30Like, I've seen a few benchmarks, and it seems amazing.

1:02:34So I don't know what the trade-offs are.

1:02:35Maybe it's terrible quality, I don't know yet.

1:02:38I'm looking into it.

1:02:38- Yeah, it's because it's not ImageMagick or GD.

1:02:40both of those things are like,

1:02:42forgetting how well they work when you use them,

1:02:46just getting them installed is just,

1:02:48it's just like such a nightmare,

1:02:50and it never got better over the decades of me

1:02:53having to install those two things.

1:02:54You're like, well, they'll work it out,

1:02:56and it'll be, oh god, so painful, so painful.

1:02:59- Yeah, and I don't know if this is still the case,

1:03:01but we, at Tumblr, we had a lot of issues with,

1:03:04like, ImageMagick would increment the version

1:03:07in some minor way, and then all of a sudden,

1:03:10it would be 10 times slower in certain cases

1:03:12'cause they were like playing with multi-threading

1:03:14and something wouldn't work right

1:03:16or it would lock things weirdly.

1:03:18It was unstable for a while there.

1:03:20It's probably better now, but anyway,

1:03:21this is pretty boring.

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1:06:12Do you want to talk about family sharing, Jon?

1:06:15Oh, that was the David Sparks thing that we've had in the notes in forever.

1:06:19Yeah, he has a lot of complaints about family sharing.

1:06:23My expectations, I guess, were just way lower.

1:06:27What I was looking for for family sharing is an officially sanctioned acknowledgement

1:06:33from Apple of the structure of our family unit, which this more or less gave.

1:06:37I talked about the caveats in my Yosemite article where it's like, well, what if you

1:06:40had already sort of kind of given your kids Apple IDs even though they weren't supposed

1:06:46to have them because they're too young, which I did.

1:06:50They introduced this way for you to add like child's Apple IDs.

1:06:53And I said, well, my kids already have Apple IDs.

1:06:56and I convert them to child Apple IDs and Apple said, "Lol."

1:07:00So you can't actually convert an Apple ID,

1:07:02you can't merge Apple IDs, you can't convert them.

1:07:04And so I have to give my kids fake ages

1:07:06and wait until, whatever, like that's annoying.

1:07:08But at least I can have an organizer for the family

1:07:13and another adult in the family

1:07:15and two children in the family.

1:07:16And so just having Apple,

1:07:19having me be able to input that information in some place

1:07:22where Apple knows it,

1:07:23gives me hope that future applications, future services,

1:07:28other future things that Apple does,

1:07:30maybe even third-party things if they expose that,

1:07:33could recognize the structure of my family

1:07:36and use that to do non-stupid things,

1:07:38like working the way that we would want the applications

1:07:42to work for our family.

1:07:43I have dim hopes that Apple's photo stuff

1:07:46was going to do this, but whatever.

1:07:48And the second thing I wanted out of it

1:07:50was I wanted my kids to be able to buy things

1:07:54on the App Store with their own Apple IDs

1:07:56with me having some control over what they buy.

1:07:59And so then they could have their own,

1:08:00you know, if people get them iTunes gift cards

1:08:02for their stocking or something,

1:08:03they can go into their own Apple ID,

1:08:05it'll be their own money,

1:08:06they can spend it on the games that they want to spend it on

1:08:09and then I can still see what they're doing.

1:08:11And this feature has worked spottily,

1:08:15which you would expect from most of these features,

1:08:16but sometimes it works.

1:08:18It's like, it's better than this feature not existing.

1:08:21Now, all the complaints about this is like,

1:08:22well, what if they download an application

1:08:25that you bought on your Apple ID,

1:08:26but the in-app purchase doesn't transfer over there,

1:08:29so they have to redo the in-app purchase.

1:08:31A lot of the annoyances of family sharing

1:08:35cause many people, including me occasionally,

1:08:37to go back to what we were all doing before,

1:08:39which is just designating a member of the family

1:08:41as the designated App Store Apple ID person.

1:08:44And then everybody assigned in with that Apple ID

1:08:47to the iTunes store, and I've said this before,

1:08:49to Apple's credit, despite the fact that they're so terrible

1:08:51at recognizing how families work,

1:08:54they have made it relatively easy

1:08:56to have different Apple IDs for all the different things.

1:08:58You can be signed into one Apple ID in iCloud,

1:09:00to a different Apple ID in the App Store,

1:09:03and I think even to a different Apple ID in Game Center,

1:09:06and maybe a different Apple ID in iMessage, I don't know,

1:09:08but there's a whole bunch of different places

1:09:09where you can have Apple IDs.

1:09:10If it was all one thing, nothing would work,

1:09:12because that would just totally have,

1:09:15wouldn't allow people to even do workarounds,

1:09:17But the workaround everybody I know does is,

1:09:19oh, that's the Apple ID we buy everything on,

1:09:20everybody in the family gets to use it,

1:09:22which is nice from the bad old world of like,

1:09:24you had to get a license for each seat

1:09:26and if you had two computers,

1:09:27you can only use the software on one or whatever.

1:09:30So now, you know, in the yesterday,

1:09:32you would spend $200 on a program

1:09:35and you had to spend another $200

1:09:36if someone else wanted to use it.

1:09:37Now you spend 99 cents and your whole family can use it.

1:09:39So maybe we're all spoiled by that.

1:09:40But whatever the policy is, we all have a workaround,

1:09:45which is just use the same Apple ID for everything.

1:09:47and the quote unquote correct way

1:09:49to do it with family sharing, even if it doesn't work,

1:09:51and even if it has limitations,

1:09:53and even if iTunes matches and integrated with it

1:09:55and everything, it is a start.

1:09:57And I've waited so long for them to have any kind of start,

1:09:59I'm like, finally, they realize we have families.

1:10:01So maybe in another decade, everyone in the family

1:10:04will be able to take pictures

1:10:05and put them into one big family photos pool

1:10:07and not have to have one computer designated

1:10:10as the iPhoto computer or one Apple ID

1:10:12designated as the one family Apple ID.

1:10:14But baby steps.

1:10:16- Yeah, I mean, for whatever it's worth,

1:10:18I've now set up Apple family sharing on two families,

1:10:21on me, my wife, and my son, and then also on Tiff's parents,

1:10:25so they together can each be their own people

1:10:27and have their own iPads and share purchases.

1:10:30For both of those cases, we didn't do it

1:10:35the way everyone else did it before,

1:10:37where we didn't have one account

1:10:39that we just bought things from

1:10:41and then we'd have our own accounts.

1:10:42No, we were always separate before,

1:10:44'cause Tiff and I just don't buy a lot of the same things.

1:10:47It was never really a big problem.

1:10:49And Tiff's mom just got an iPad this Christmas,

1:10:51so it was after family sharing existed,

1:10:53so we could start kinda clean on those.

1:10:56And so for us, like using it the way it's intended,

1:11:01the clean way that Apple thinks everyone does,

1:11:03even though almost no one does except us,

1:11:05but using it that way, it has worked incredibly well.

1:11:08I don't think we've had a single issue with it.

1:11:10It has really been flawless.

1:11:12I think the challenges people are having are migrating between the old way of having one

1:11:18shared account, if you were doing that, which you're right, a lot of people do.

1:11:23Migrating from that into this new system.

1:11:25But if you kind of come to the system on its own terms and do it the way Apple thinks you

1:11:29should be doing things today, then it works very well.

1:11:33Then you have separate pools of photos.

1:11:36That's true, yeah.

1:11:37The photos are not really a solved thing yet.

1:11:40And Adam's not old enough to be buying his own things

1:11:43on the App Store, but soon he will be.

1:11:44And so then, you know.

1:11:45- Well no, but that actually works.

1:11:47So we have it set up, he has his own little iPhone

1:11:49that's an old iPhone of mine,

1:11:50and he has these games on it.

1:11:54And we set him up his own child account

1:11:56through the new child account system.

1:11:58And so it has his real age in it,

1:12:00like you don't have to pretend he's 13 or whatever.

1:12:03Has his actual real age in it,

1:12:04and his purchases are charged to my account.

1:12:09and then me or Tiff have to authorize those purchases

1:12:11before they're made, and it pops up, it works great.

1:12:14And on Tiff's mom, we had hers doing what you were saying

1:12:18with the cards, whereas, where like,

1:12:20we gave her the iPad and we gave her an iTunes card

1:12:23to start it up with, and Tiff's dad has had one for years,

1:12:26so he has all this existing stuff,

1:12:27and his payment information's already in his account,

1:12:30and we made them a family account,

1:12:31and we added the prepaid card only to hers,

1:12:35and it separates it out.

1:12:37So whichever member of the family adds a prepaid card,

1:12:40it gives them that credit,

1:12:42not the first person or the owner or whatever of the family.

1:12:47And so everyone else's purchases don't draw

1:12:49from one person in the family's credit account.

1:12:53So it actually does the right thing there.

1:12:54It works very well.

1:12:56- Yeah, the reason I said it works spotally

1:12:58is because I've had other people in my family

1:13:00set up their family things

1:13:01and then just never be able to get the notification,

1:13:04you know, the thing that says,

1:13:05do you wanna approve this thing?

1:13:06And as with so many other iCloud problems,

1:13:08once you confirm that the setup is correct,

1:13:10yep, you've got a family, yep, it's structured correctly,

1:13:13yep, people are signing in with the right Apple IDs

1:13:15for all the various things.

1:13:16All right, now make a purchase or try to make a purchase.

1:13:18And now you should see a notification on your thing.

1:13:20Nope, don't see it.

1:13:22- Yeah, there's nothing you can do.

1:13:23- Right, and then you gotta do the dance.

1:13:24Okay, well, I guess we all sign out of our Apple IDs,

1:13:26we wipe our devices, we do this,

1:13:28or you just do this silly dance

1:13:29and just if it doesn't work, you're like, I don't know.

1:13:32And so that still happens.

1:13:34And it annoys me that that happens.

1:13:37Every time it does happen, you just feel powerless.

1:13:40And it's like, look, see, they got to work,

1:13:42or there's got to be a way for me to debug it.

1:13:44And debugging it doesn't mean doing the only things

1:13:47that have buttons-- sign out, send back in,

1:13:50delete all data, restore data.

1:13:51And just, it's very frustrating.

1:13:53I've had good luck with it here, but I've seen it not work.

1:13:57Actually, I think the first time I tried it,

1:13:59it didn't work for me either.

1:13:59But then it did start working.

1:14:00What changed between the time it didn't work and it didn't?

1:14:03know. I still find that pressure. But really the thing I'm most excited about is the fact

1:14:10they have that metadata. Because I hope that once they have that metadata that it can be

1:14:14useful for something. That it will encourage them to... Because if you think about it,

1:14:18anyone designing some kind of application or service inside Apple, if it's like, "Oh,

1:14:24we can do this thing for families." But I don't want to set up a thing where people

1:14:26have to sign up their family. I just want to make an app. No one wants to do the infrastructure.

1:14:31But someone eventually, the infrastructure finally did get done as a separate thing.

1:14:34Family sharing is a separate thing.

1:14:35So now that infrastructure is there, anybody making an application, at least with an Apple

1:14:39for now, doesn't have to be like, "Oh, we could do this cool thing with family.

1:14:43Oh, but I don't want to have a thing where people have to enter their families and that's

1:14:46not part of my application really or whatever."

1:14:47It's like, "No, wait, we've already got that.

1:14:50It's already, you know, that information is there and presumably there's some way for

1:14:52us to get it.

1:14:53Then we can leverage that."

1:14:55In kind of the same way, like I hope they leverage it more like, you know, the little

1:14:58VIP thing.

1:14:59when your phone is on do not disturb,

1:15:00allow calls from VIPs and mail has VIPs and stuff like that.

1:15:04Now that it knows who the family members are,

1:15:06you can say things like allow calls from my family,

1:15:09you know, or automatically put things from my family

1:15:12in a separate bin in Apple Mail

1:15:13instead of just the VIP thing like, you know,

1:15:16and this is just immediate family.

1:15:17They can go to extended family and you can like,

1:15:19they can slowly start to model the real world

1:15:22so we can do things with,

1:15:23in the same way that Siri can say, you know, call my wife,

1:15:26like the relationship,

1:15:28trying to map the relationship between you and other people

1:15:31and having sort of these smart assistants in there

1:15:33that are aware of these relationships

1:15:35and more than just like,

1:15:37I don't know how do you do the spouse arrangements

1:15:40and things, is there a field in context

1:15:42where you say what their relation is

1:15:43or is it just a note field or?

1:15:44- No, there's a field in context for relationship, I believe.

1:15:47- But is it like free form?

1:15:48Like you can write any text there you want

1:15:49or is there some like?

1:15:51- Is it's complicated an option?

1:15:52- Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

1:15:54You know, to give some kind of metadata

1:15:56that is not just arbitrary key value pairs,

1:15:59but that has meaning,

1:16:00and that the meaning is understood by the program

1:16:02so they can, so that, you know,

1:16:04even it's just like quickly doing something

1:16:07like pulling up a picker where everything is just like

1:16:11your most recent context or your most recent whatever,

1:16:13but there's some kind of picker where it makes sense

1:16:15for you to have the spouses being the default thing

1:16:18or have immediate family as being the default

1:16:20or trying to make reservations

1:16:23that it guesses that you want your whole family.

1:16:24I don't know, there's lots of things that you can do.

1:16:26And I don't wanna get into sort of a creepy,

1:16:28like oh Google, they know too much about me or whatever.

1:16:30I'm just like this is information that I enter

1:16:32and I want my photo management application

1:16:34to know about my family, who the members are,

1:16:37how I might want things shared and stuff like that.

1:16:39So this is just the very first step

1:16:41to the possibility of doing that.

1:16:44- Real time follow up,

1:16:45I am not seeing a relationship field after all.

1:16:48I could swear it was there, but I am not seeing it.

1:16:50- Yeah, the information's gotta be in there.

1:16:52But like in the family sharing,

1:16:53you don't set relationships like that.

1:16:55You just say like, this is a family,

1:16:56there's an organizer and there's adults

1:16:57and there's children, which is fine.

1:16:58Like, you don't need to be prescriptive

1:17:01about like the structure of a family or whatever.

1:17:02Just like, I just want to connect the lines

1:17:04and say, here is the structure and here is the hierarchy,

1:17:08adults, children, you know, like whatever.

1:17:11Just that information, I can imagine being so useful,

1:17:15but nobody who wants to write an application

1:17:18that would take advantage of that information

1:17:19also wants to sign up for gathering,

1:17:21storing and managing that information.

1:17:22So it's an infrastructure thing that Apple

1:17:24needs to be doing and now is finally doing,

1:17:27but apparently not particularly well.

1:17:28Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week,

1:17:31Cards Against Humanity, Fracture, and Harry's,

1:17:34and we will see you next week.

1:17:36(upbeat music)

1:17:39♪ Now the show is over ♪

1:17:41♪ They didn't even mean to begin ♪

1:17:44♪ 'Cause it was accidental ♪

1:17:45♪ Accidental ♪

1:17:46♪ Oh, it was accidental ♪

1:17:48♪ Accidental ♪

1:17:49John didn't do any research, Marco and Casey wouldn't let him

1:17:54'Cause it was accidental (it was accidental)

1:17:57It was accidental (accidental)

1:18:00And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm

1:18:05And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them

1:18:10@c-a-s-e-y-l-i-s-s

1:18:14So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M

1:18:18♪ Anti-Marco Armin, S-I-R-A-C ♪

1:18:23♪ USA, Syracuse, it's accidental ♪

1:18:27♪ Accidental ♪

1:18:29♪ They didn't mean to ♪

1:18:31♪ Accidental ♪

1:18:33♪ Accidental ♪

1:18:34♪ Tech podcast ♪

1:18:36♪ So long ♪

1:18:38- We have a lot of important stuff to talk about,

1:18:42and it looks like we need to get through some BS first.

1:18:46(laughing)

1:18:47Isn't that the usual formula for a show?

1:18:49That's a very, very good point.

1:18:50So to weed through this BS as quickly as possible, can we talk about your PS4 setup and Destiny

1:18:57UI woes?

1:18:58Yeah, I ordered that monitor so I could play Destiny on it instead of on my television

1:19:04and it got delayed by two snowstorms, so it was kind of frustrating for all involved.

1:19:09Eventually it did arrive, I set it up, I've been playing it now.

1:19:12I had to do...

1:19:14My son hasn't learned trigonometry yet, so I tried to give him sort of the approximated

1:19:17version of trigonometry to convince him that a 23-inch monitor, the distance he's sitting

1:19:21from it is actually twice as big in his field of vision as the 55-inch television at the

1:19:26distance he was sitting from it.

1:19:27Oh my god.

1:19:28I was just doing that as a ratio of distance to width of the screen rather than going through

1:19:33like the angles and the fields of view or whatever.

1:19:35I think he mostly bought it.

1:19:37And you know...

1:19:38How old is he?

1:19:39How old is he?

1:19:40Ten.

1:19:41I mean, like, if you don't even,

1:19:43I tried to gloss over and say,

1:19:44all you need to know is the ratio,

1:19:45like how far, you know, anyway.

1:19:48He found it fairly convincing.

1:19:50Hooking it up and playing it like that, it's nice.

1:19:53The one thing I realized, which kind of makes me sad,

1:19:55is that the black levels on this display

1:19:57are nowhere near as good as they are on my TV.

1:19:59I mean, I knew this, like I knew I'm getting,

1:20:01it's like a super cheap LCD screen,

1:20:02but it's just, it's shocking to me

1:20:06how non-black everything is on this screen

1:20:09coming off of my TV.

1:20:11but what can you do?

1:20:12But anyway, it does fill more of my field of vision.

1:20:16It makes it easier to get headshots.

1:20:18I've been trying out a little bit of hand cannon stuff

1:20:21because everyone tells me it's good.

1:20:23I'm not a total convert, but I've been using a little bit.

1:20:25Anyway, the other thing I want to talk about with Destiny

1:20:27is the UI, like the toaster,

1:20:30there are some UI problems in Destiny.

1:20:33Most of the UI in Destiny is actually,

1:20:34you can tell that they play tested it a lot

1:20:36because the things that people do frequently in Destiny

1:20:38usually have nice ways to do them.

1:20:40So it shows there must have been a really long play testing period where they made can be like you have a lot of crap

1:20:44To manage and if you ever played a game that makes a management difficult

1:20:47You're just going through screens and menus and back and forward and it's super difficult

1:20:50This system seems weird at first when you use it for a while you realize it's very efficient

1:20:55Lots of things are done on mouse over

1:20:57Lots of things you do frequently like comparing the equipped weapon to another one can be done easily with a nice

1:21:03You know the UI is actually a great lesson in how to make a game UI that's efficient for the things that people do when

1:21:08they're playing the game. But there's one area where I think they fell down and

1:21:12that led me to my other sad destiny thing. I was in this in a little vendor

1:21:17trying to look at different things that I was thinking of buying and I pretty

1:21:20much decided which thing I was gonna buy a particular helmet but I just wanted to

1:21:23check one more time back at the other one and I went over to the other one to

1:21:26hit what I thought was the button for details which is triangle to say let me

1:21:30just look at this one more time to be sure that I'm buying the right one

1:21:32it's the with the right perks or whatever and I accidentally hit X instead of

1:21:35triangle and that immediately purchased the item spending things in game which I

1:21:42don't want to get into that take a really long time to get I'd spent a long

1:21:45time building up this currency and there is no one do like I'm still in as far as

1:21:50I know no one to call it tweeted at me to correct me there is no one do there

1:21:53is no going back it's like but but I'm you know I haven't used it I haven't

1:21:57equipped it I haven't I just bought it immediately I just want to immediately

1:21:59say undo unpurchase refund go back it's like the app store like sorry all sales

1:22:04- The bills are final.

1:22:06- And it was so disappointing.

1:22:07I bought the wrong helmet.

1:22:08And so some purchases make you hold down the button

1:22:11as does dismantling.

1:22:12And in fact, if you dismantle something super valuable

1:22:15like an exotic, it will make you hold it down even longer.

1:22:18Like that's good UI to make it

1:22:19so you don't accidentally do something.

1:22:22One little tap of the X button, boom,

1:22:23like three weeks of work to build up

1:22:26what it took to buy this thing, gone.

1:22:28I found that very sad.

1:22:30So now I have an ugly helmet with the wrong perks.

1:22:33- I have no idea what any of that means,

1:22:34but I am sorry for your loss.

1:22:36- Well, you know, it's just general design things.

1:22:38Like if an action has large consequences,

1:22:43make some kind of undo for it,

1:22:45or even just like sell back or,

1:22:47and I understand that it's like,

1:22:48I actually, I understand that it's really hard to do that.

1:22:51Like, I don't think this is a trivial change.

1:22:53This is a massively multiplayer game

1:22:55where there actually are stocks for the vendors

1:22:58and other people buy things.

1:22:59Like it's not as simple as like,

1:23:01it is really complicated to undo.

1:23:02They have to kind of build it in from the beginning,

1:23:04is you can use it for exploits, you know,

1:23:06you can imagine all sorts of ways

1:23:07that being able to buy something and immediately refund it

1:23:09can be used to break the game

1:23:11and can screw with like keeping track

1:23:13of what inventory is there and like just,

1:23:15it's super hard to do, which gives me almost no hope

1:23:17that it will ever be done.

1:23:18I guess the best thing they can do instead of undo

1:23:20is just make it a long press to buy things.

1:23:23But then people are annoyed because like,

1:23:24every time I buy something,

1:23:25I gotta hold down the button.

1:23:26So I don't know, I think they just need to do something.

1:23:29- And that's the extent of your destiny woes for this week?

1:23:32- Yeah, about the fact that I never get any time

1:23:34to play and my son is way ahead of me because he has more time to play.

1:23:38Still want to do raids.

1:23:39I need ascendant shards.

1:23:41Please send ascendant shards.

1:23:42I need like 20 of them.

1:23:44I mean, do you want me to like rescue this conversation by talking about headphone amps

1:23:47some more?

1:23:48I mean...

1:23:49No, we gotta move on to your printouts now.

1:23:50What's wrong with my printouts?

1:23:51Why are you printing things on paper to read for sponsor reads?

1:23:55You were sitting in front of a computer with a screen!

1:23:58Alright, a few reasons.

1:24:00A, I have a printer and a lot of paper.

1:24:04What else am I supposed to do with it?

1:24:05(laughing)

1:24:08- You've got paper burning a hole in your virtual pocket.

1:24:11Just had to spend it.

1:24:13- Yeah, that's true.

1:24:14I mean, I have this laser printer that I bought

1:24:16when paper still mattered slightly more than it does now.

1:24:18And it can print like thousands of pages

1:24:21before running out of toner.

1:24:22And so, hey, what else am I gonna do with it?

1:24:24That's part of it.

1:24:25Also that my microphone is angled.

1:24:30I can't actually talk ideally optimally directly into the mic while looking at my computer

1:24:36screen without having it not be perfectly, you know, not be as well isolated against

1:24:41echoes and stuff like that in my setup that I have here.

1:24:44Why don't you move your mic?

1:24:46I mean I could do that, but it just like, it works better this way for me right now.

1:24:51And then mostly it's just because my computer screen is full of windows, despite the way

1:24:57you think I work.

1:25:00I know you think I have one window and then I close it

1:25:01and then I open up another one and then I close that.

1:25:03- I retweeted that guy who was like,

1:25:05oh Marco can't have it on his screen

1:25:06'cause there'd be too many windows

1:25:07and you'd feel overwhelmed.

1:25:08- So I'm gonna move on from that.

1:25:10- I didn't tweet it, someone else did, I just retweeted it.

1:25:13- It's easier for me to manage it, for me to see it,

1:25:16for me to read from it and for me to keep track

1:25:18of which ones I have to do and which ones have been done

1:25:23and then at the end to be able to glance at all three

1:25:25and be able to read them back as the thanks

1:25:27to these sponsors, we'll see you next week.

1:25:29It's just easier for me to do that all on paper right now.

1:25:32I thought about maybe doing it on an iPad

1:25:34'cause that has a lot of the same benefits

1:25:35where I could hold it right in front of my face

1:25:37behind the mic here and stuff like that,

1:25:39but I just haven't gotten around to trying that.

1:25:41I mean, it's no big deal to do it on paper.

1:25:43It's really not a big deal.

1:25:45- The main reason I actually wanna talk about this

1:25:47is because this, not because I think it's kind of silly,

1:25:52but on the other hand, it reveals something

1:25:54that I'm constantly complaining about,

1:25:56which is people have the ability to deal with things,

1:26:01to deal with real things in their hands

1:26:04in ways that they can't do on a computer screen.

1:26:09And if you wanna take advantage of those skills,

1:26:12like the fact that you can manage those three pieces

1:26:13of paper, you can look at them,

1:26:14you know where they are and everything.

1:26:16It's not that you have to approximate the real world,

1:26:18but you have to leverage those same abilities.

1:26:21Like it shouldn't feel so much more comfortable for,

1:26:24and it's not just you, tons of people have this.

1:26:25It shouldn't feel so much more comfortable to deal with a physical thing than it does

1:26:28in the computer.

1:26:29It's always going to feel a little bit more comfortable, and on the other hand, there's

1:26:31always going to be things you can do on a computer screen that you can't do in the real

1:26:33world.

1:26:34But any time I see someone saying, "Well, I could do that on the computer screen, but

1:26:41it feels better to do it in real life."

1:26:43It's something that does not seem...

1:26:46It seems like a reasonable thing for a computer to do, like say show a screen full of text.

1:26:50It's not obviously kneading dough or something.

1:26:53you need to do that in the physical world

1:26:54is harder to do on a computer, right?

1:26:57That's like a failure of the interface.

1:26:59And whatever it is, it's a failure of like,

1:27:01is the interface too complicated?

1:27:03Is the mouse not as good as grabbing a piece of paper

1:27:08for you?

1:27:09Is to keep track of things, do you ever see people

1:27:12who take notes in meetings with a notebook,

1:27:14even though like an actual paper and pen,

1:27:16even though they have a laptop and an iPad

1:27:18and everything like that?

1:27:19Is it just old habits because people are, you know,

1:27:21grew up doing it a certain way?

1:27:23Like it's difficult to suss out exactly what the problem is,

1:27:25but I think there is still an element of computers feeling

1:27:29sort of less tangible, which sounds stupid

1:27:31because obviously it's just a bunch of little lights

1:27:32on a screen, but like less tangible in the figurative sense

1:27:36instead of the literal sense that they can't get a handle

1:27:38on something unless they have it literally in their hand

1:27:41and it feels better.

1:27:42So anyway, that's like, I think no one is immune to that.

1:27:46Even people who use computers all day

1:27:47to do complicated things that occasionally

1:27:50is just more convenient, even if it's just simply

1:27:51like out of band.

1:27:52Like I know these are separate like there's the show and then there's the sponsors and the sponsors are separate

1:27:56No

1:27:56Well, they'll never accidentally get mixed in with my other windows and I'll never lose them and I'll always have them available

1:28:00Right and and I can always tell in the corner of my eye like

1:28:05How many more sponsors do I have for the show?

1:28:08Like how many do I have to do? Whereas if they were windows?

1:28:10I think I think they might get lost a little more easily

1:28:12Yeah, if you had blue index cards, you could throw them behind you through a a window that doesn't have any glass in it

1:28:17They can make a glass crashing sound

1:28:21Nobody you guys were too young to stay up that late. All right, that's fine. All right

1:28:25We have more

1:28:29BS to go through although I have a feeling this might be worth it and then I'd really like to talk about

1:28:33Cars for a few minutes. So tell us John a little more about this toaster that you were that you were given

1:28:39so things to know about toasters like

1:28:43You know how I'm sort of rating them because again, I haven't had a million toasters

1:28:48but I sort of know the rough outlines of the features that they may or may not have and

1:28:52The way I like I always look at toasters in the stores. I don't buy them, but I look at them a

1:28:56few things that I think most toasters

1:28:59Get wrong especially the cheap ones the things that make the toaster hot the heating elements

1:29:03If they don't have anything covering them

1:29:06That's just asking for trouble because no matter how careful you are with your toaster

1:29:10You always end up getting something in there and it like drips a little piece of melted cheese or whatever

1:29:14You know, you're not really supposed to put things in there that are drippy

1:29:16But everybody always does eventually you do not want that dripping directly on the element because it burns and it's just awful

1:29:22there should be some kind of

1:29:25other

1:29:26Guard above the element sometimes that guard gets almost as hot as the element and sometimes the guard has openings in it that let stuff

1:29:32get down to the element anyway and

1:29:34Sometimes those guards can block the heat from the element if it doesn't have a reflective thing of load like there's it's difficult to get

1:29:39The balance right between the elements in the guard, but anyway I look for that if I see bare elements on the bottom

1:29:43I think it's not great. Mine has that. Yeah, well, if I see only one little

1:29:49skinny element in a gigantic toaster I'm thinking that one element is not gonna

1:29:52be able to heat things up enough or it's not gonna have even heating so if it's a

1:29:55really big toaster I want to see two elements top and bottom. The plugs, nobody

1:29:59seems to care about this and maybe it's just my old ancient crappy kitchen but

1:30:03they give you these plugs that are like three prong plugs heavy-duty and they

1:30:07stick out like an inch they're just huge plugs and if you have the type of

1:30:10kitchen where the plugs are down at the same level as the toaster and you only

1:30:13have a little tiny spot where you can put the toaster and the plug is right

1:30:16behind it and the toaster has a tremendous depth because they're all

1:30:19made to put giant deep dish pizzas inside them or whatever the hell they're

1:30:22made for these days. If you plug in the toaster you can't push it up

1:30:27against the wall because the plug sticks out from it and if you jam it right

1:30:30against the plug A) you're kinking the cord and B) the hot back of the toaster

1:30:34is pressing against the you're gonna melt the little rubber coating on the

1:30:37back of the thing. I think every toaster should come with a low profile plug that sits flush

1:30:42against the wall so that you can shove the toaster right back up against it and it should

1:30:45have little stops in the back of it that keep you from pressing the hot back of the toaster

1:30:48against the cord and melting through and electrocuting you and your whole family. So that's an area

1:30:52I think all toasters could get better. Even my toaster doesn't have that, the fancy one.

1:30:56I bought a low profile plug extension cord and did this little thing to make it all work.

1:31:01Otherwise I couldn't even have a toaster there. Mine does have the standoffs that prevent

1:31:04you from putting it right against the wall. And it only has a two prong plug, but it is

1:31:08a regular straight plug, not a corner plug. Yeah, they usually have some kind of standouts

1:31:12for safety reasons, but like when the plug sticks out, it's like, the standouts don't

1:31:17hit, the plug hits first. And I guess maybe people have the plugs either higher up, I

1:31:20don't even know what code dictates, all I know is that my plugs are way down low and

1:31:24I have very little space and the plugs are right behind where I need to put both of these

1:31:26toasters in fact. How hot does the toaster get on the outside? Some toasters get absurdly

1:31:32hot on the outside and people stack all sorts of crap on top of their toasters.

1:31:36Like I wouldn't put anything on top of a toaster because I know it gets hot up there but people

1:31:40do put things up there but some of them get so hot like you're basically cooking stuff

1:31:44on the outside of a toaster.

1:31:45Or even if you just have like something next to it like within an inch of it and it slowly

1:31:49like bakes that over time.

1:31:50That's not great.

1:31:52This used to be a standard feature that seems to be only on the super high end ones now

1:31:55and I don't understand why.

1:31:57So all you need is a friggin metal hook but when you open the door the little thing that

1:32:00pulls the tray out a little bit that's convenient everyone should do that why

1:32:04do they not do it it's too little metal hooks just do it you know some of them

1:32:07use magnets some use fancy things and the final element is that I see all the

1:32:11time is how robust are the things inside it like the little the little wire thing

1:32:15that you put the toast on sometimes that wire is like as thin as a hair it's like

1:32:20what what are you trying to save money on give me a nice big thick you know it

1:32:24doesn't need to be so thick that the heat can't get through it but it

1:32:27It shouldn't be easily bent or like the type of thing where it will slowly deteriorate

1:32:33and just crack or like just the heat will work its way.

1:32:37It should not feel cheap.

1:32:39It shouldn't bend easily.

1:32:40The tray that you put stuff in shouldn't be like the thinnest possible metal you can get

1:32:44so that it slowly bends and warps and dents.

1:32:46Just again, it doesn't cause, you know, I guess the difference between a cheap toaster

1:32:49and a good one, just make those things a little bit thicker.

1:32:51So that's how I'm going to be judging any toaster that comes into my life.

1:32:55Okay.

1:32:56That's amazing.

1:32:57Can we talk about cars for a few minutes?

1:33:02We can.

1:33:03All right.

1:33:06I drove an M4.

1:33:08Wow that's great.

1:33:09So yeah what's that about?

1:33:11So a friend of mine, Keith, he just traded his E92 M3 for a brand new M4, which I drove.

1:33:22It is the DCT, which is not my preference,

1:33:27but I have to admit it's pretty damn nice.

1:33:32I probably would not order one with the DCT.

1:33:37However, it's really nice.

1:33:40And oh my goodness, the M4 was so nice.

1:33:43Like, I don't mean this in a genuine sense,

1:33:46but my car is ruined.

1:33:47(laughing)

1:33:51The M4 was loud, which was surprising.

1:33:54And then of course,

1:33:54Keith pointed out as we're driving around,

1:33:56I don't know how much of that is the speakers

1:33:57and how much of that is the car.

1:33:59- Well, the M cars are all loud.

1:34:02They're intentionally loud.

1:34:04Although, I have still not seen an M4 in real life,

1:34:07except for a few seconds on the highway going the other way.

1:34:09But from what I've seen in videos

1:34:13and from those few seconds on the highway,

1:34:14it did seem louder than the usual for M cars.

1:34:17- Yeah, it was surprisingly loud.

1:34:20A little bit of turbo lag, which I was surprised by,

1:34:22because my car has virtually none.

1:34:25And this had a little bit, which I guess makes sense

1:34:27if you have a bigger turbo,

1:34:28or pushing more boost, or whatever.

1:34:29But it certainly surprised me

1:34:32that the number was more than zero.

1:34:35The interior was bigger than I expected,

1:34:38which is probably silly because it's a 3 Series,

1:34:40so to speak.

1:34:41Yeah, obviously it's an M4,

1:34:42but my point being that it's the same size

1:34:45as your average 3 Series, just with one less,

1:34:47or two less doors.

1:34:48But it was bigger inside than I expected.

1:34:51The driving experience though was just amazing.

1:34:56God, it was so good.

1:34:57And it was extremely quick.

1:35:01I feel like it was,

1:35:03and I haven't crunched numbers or anything,

1:35:05but I feel like the power to weight ratio

1:35:08of your car, Marco, in this car

1:35:09were approximately equivalent

1:35:12in so far as you stand on the gas

1:35:14and you are hurtled forward

1:35:15at an uncomfortable rate of speed.

1:35:17And he was well within break-in.

1:35:19I think the car had like 300 miles on it

1:35:20or something like that.

1:35:21So I was coming off throttle at 5,000 RPM

1:35:24or something like that.

1:35:25But, oh my goodness, the thing was amazing.

1:35:28And now I kind of want an M3.

1:35:31Well, not that I didn't before, but I want one again.

1:35:34- What color was it?

1:35:35- I forget the name of the blue,

1:35:36but the bright, bright, bright blue,

1:35:37which is not my favorite and was not his favorite either,

1:35:40but it looked better in person.

1:35:42Not too dissimilar from the orange 1M.

1:35:45I forget what actual color that is, Marco probably knows.

1:35:49- Well, that was a Valencia orange.

1:35:51I prefer the secure orange, it's on the newer cars,

1:35:54but 'cause the Valencia orange,

1:35:56I think it's still on the X1,

1:35:57or at least it was on the X1 before.

1:36:00It's very pale in person.

1:36:02The secure orange is almost red.

1:36:05It's a nice, like, bold, darker, so I prefer that one.

1:36:09- I mean, to be fair, there are no good colors

1:36:11on the modern M3s.

1:36:12I can't speak for the M5, I haven't looked in a long time,

1:36:14But the M3 and the M4 have no good colors.

1:36:16There's black, there's white,

1:36:17and then there's a bunch of crap.

1:36:18- I've seen the M4 and the dog vomit color.

1:36:20There's one of them around here that I see a lot.

1:36:22- The yellow one?

1:36:23- Yeah.

1:36:24(laughing)

1:36:24- Oh, it's so bad.

1:36:26- Is that, I've only had one dog,

1:36:28but that's what color dog vomit is.

1:36:30Always kind of yellowish, right?

1:36:31- Mine's a little more orange.

1:36:33Yeah, mine's closer to the secure orange color.

1:36:35It's actually more like the Valencia orange color.

1:36:38- Yeah, and Kyle Cronin points out in the chat,

1:36:39and I believe he's right, it's yasmerina blue

1:36:42is the blue I'm talking about.

1:36:43I mean it was okay, I lamented numerous times that I actually did not want to get a white

1:36:48335.

1:36:49I preferred to get a Le Mans Blue 335 and this and I was reminded of how much I should

1:36:55have gotten that color when we were at WWDC this past year and a jury had driven by and

1:37:03I am almost sure that his 335D is in fact Le Mans Blue which is really annoying because

1:37:09it's freaking beautiful.

1:37:11But anyway, the M4 was amazing.

1:37:13I kind of want one.

1:37:14I'm going to sell the two of you in order to buy one.

1:37:18It's been great working with you.

1:37:20So a few questions.

1:37:21First of all, which do you think is a worse color collection overall?

1:37:26The colors available for the M4 or the colors available for iPad cases?

1:37:32I would actually say the M4 probably, but it is a tight race.

1:37:35No, the M4 definitely because things like iPad cases you can have in kind of fanciful

1:37:40colors and it's not a big deal but in a car, boy that's a lot of color.

1:37:44Like it's a big thing.

1:37:45It's a big expensive thing and especially in the case of BMWs where like the non-white

1:37:50and black paints are like magic and have fairy dust in them and cost 10 bajillion dollars.

1:37:56That's a way more important thing to worry about the color of than an iPad case.

1:37:59An iPad case is like, well you could have two iPad cases in different colors and you

1:38:02could swap them.

1:38:03Like this is an intrinsic part of a super expensive thing that you're investing a lot

1:38:08of your self and your image and your desires in.

1:38:10So it's much worse for cars to have bad color selections.

1:38:14- Yeah, I love this secure orange color.

1:38:17It was available on the M5.

1:38:19I chickened out because for the same,

1:38:21for it's like, I would love this color

1:38:23for a couple of days a month.

1:38:26And then the rest of the time I'd be like,

1:38:27ooh, it would feel like too much.

1:38:29Also, it's a big car.

1:38:31- It would stick out like a--

1:38:32- Right.

1:38:33- It would just be ridiculous.

1:38:34- Like if I ever got a small fun car again,

1:38:37I would be much more likely to pick a color like that on a small, fun, occasional driver.

1:38:42But not like my daily driver, my big four-door sedan, I'm probably just going to want that

1:38:45to be black most of the time, or something close to black, like one of those dark grays

1:38:49or whatever.

1:38:52For your everyday car, for this thing you're going to have for years, you're right.

1:38:57I'm not willing to take a risk on some kind of bright out there color.

1:39:02I don't know.

1:39:03I think it's made for people who will take that risk.

1:39:06That's not us. I forgot one toaster thing before we move on to that with the actual toaster. I reviewed the crumb tray

1:39:13Doesn't slide out horizontally

1:39:17Like you know it you can't just pull it straight out

1:39:20You have to tilt it and then get it out and of course when you tilt it

1:39:24There's a chance that the crumbs are that are on the crumb tray will go skittering off the crumb tray

1:39:29Into the thing you're trying to take them out of so that sounds too late. That is not a good design

1:39:33Hey mark, are you gonna ask me?

1:39:35So a couple more questions name for did you feel any slippage like what was the car?

1:39:40Putting out more power than what you could reasonably put on the road. I

1:39:43Didn't when I kept the car pointed in a straight line

1:39:48And so as you and I learned at M school

1:39:51You should really only be getting on the gas with any sort of urgency and especially I learned at the M school coming off

1:39:57You should only you should only be getting on the gas with any sort of urgency when your wheels your front wheels are pointed straight

1:40:04ahead. And when that happened, when I when I did kind of stand on it, when the wheels

1:40:10were pointed straight ahead, I did not notice any slippage. But to be fair, I was giving

1:40:16it, you know, a whole bunch of throttle for very little blips at a time, typically not

1:40:22in the lowest possible gear. Because this car is brand new. It's not at a break in etc,

1:40:27etc. Yours. It's not mine. I have a feeling that if I were to put myself in a situation

1:40:33where I wanted to move forward with the utmost of urgency, then yes, it would probably slip.

1:40:38That being said, I did take a sweeping right hand 90 degree turn with some serious quickness,

1:40:46and I gave it some gas probably before I should have.

1:40:50And I did not notice the traction control cutting in by way of obvious loss of power.

1:40:56Like it was clear that I was not moving forward as quick as I wanted to.

1:41:00But it wasn't one of those situations where all of a sudden the car hits a brick wall,

1:41:03so to speak. However, I did see the traffic control light going berserk on the dashboard.

1:41:09So it clearly was not happy with me that I was getting on the gas with urgency coming

1:41:15out of a 90 degree turn. And as much as I also did not want my 335 to be all wheel drive,

1:41:20I would have preferred rear wheel drive one. The nice thing about having an all wheel drive

1:41:24car is that I can within reason just stand on the gas with the wheels pointed in any

1:41:31direction in just about any conditions and I will move forward with a particular urgency.

1:41:37And that is not the case in the M4 and certainly not the case in your car as I realized when

1:41:43I went harpooning off the course in the borrowed M5 at the M School.

1:41:48Yeah, exactly.

1:41:49And this is the reason why I'm very excited about the prospect of an all-wheel drive M5.

1:41:54A lot of the purists are really upset about this.

1:41:56I really want that because these cars put out so much low-end torque ever since they've

1:42:01they've been turbocharged, they put it so much low end torque

1:42:04that they can't put the power out of the road.

1:42:06They are too powerful to be just rear wheel drive

1:42:09and to be able to use most of that power.

1:42:12- Yeah, and you and I have gone back and forth about this

1:42:15and I still find it a little weird,

1:42:18the thought of having an all wheel drive M car,

1:42:20but as I just said and as you just said,

1:42:22there are absolutely advantages to it without question.

1:42:25- Right, and Mercedes has them, Audi has them,

1:42:28like this is not a new concept.

1:42:30Like, just BMW is like the one holdout

1:42:32that refuses to make all the drive versions

1:42:34of their super sport cars.

1:42:36- Let me get Porsche and I think Lamborghini too, right?

1:42:39- Porsche does have the GT3.

1:42:41- Porsche has the Carrera 4.

1:42:43Yeah, but I think Lamborghini has,

1:42:45isn't the Aventador four-wheel drive?

1:42:47- Most Lamborghinis are four-wheel drive.

1:42:48The turbo, to your point, was always four-wheel drive,

1:42:52but the GT3 was always, wasn't it the turbo motor,

1:42:56but without four-wheel drive?

1:42:57I'm probably getting that wrong.

1:42:59Four-wheel drive I don't think is necessary,

1:43:01as evidenced by all of the two-wheel drive supercars,

1:43:04but if you are,

1:43:06if your driving skills are not up to that task,

1:43:10four-wheel drive is certainly more kind of point and shoot,

1:43:12like it is more forgiving.

1:43:14So for a consumer car,

1:43:16it's probably a better trade-off to spend some weight

1:43:18making it four-wheel drive,

1:43:19just so the average person can drive it

1:43:21without constantly breaking the rear end loose.

1:43:23Have a higher chance of doing it.

1:43:25Now they can break all four tires loose,

1:43:26and that's hard to do.

1:43:28- I completely agree.

1:43:29And as I've said numerous times in the past,

1:43:32perhaps my favorite point and shoot car

1:43:34that I've ever driven was my friend Brian's Volkswagen R32.

1:43:39And it had a absolutely terrible dual clutch transmission.

1:43:43However, you stood on the gas at any speed

1:43:47with the wheels pointed in any direction, in any gear,

1:43:51and you were going to move with a quickness

1:43:53in the direction the car is pointing.

1:43:55And that was nice.

1:43:57You didn't have to think about it, you could be completely ham-fisted and the car will

1:44:01sort itself out, which is pretty neat.

1:44:03So you want a GTR then?

1:44:05Yeah, kind of.

1:44:07I kind of do.

1:44:08So we have to address the steering question.

1:44:10So to introduce this topic, all the recent 3 Series and M3s and M4s have electric power

1:44:17steering.

1:44:18And this is different from the old hydraulic systems, which everyone knew, and they're

1:44:22more efficient.

1:44:24The main complaint about electric power steering in general is that you don't feel the road

1:44:30really anymore and it kind of has to artificially simulate it to some degree.

1:44:34Like you're not feeling the direct pressures that the tires are feeling, the vibrations

1:44:39the tires are giving back to you and so it doesn't feel natural and you have a lot

1:44:45less feedback of what the tires are doing.

1:44:47Different EPS systems have come out over the last few years that all claim to be improving

1:44:52in this regard.

1:44:53claim to be better and more precise and giving more feedback back to the driver.

1:44:58I have never heard anybody though say that the EPS system in a car they drove was as

1:45:04good as hydraulic steering, or better.

1:45:06There was one recent review in Car and Driver where they said that they preferred the electric

1:45:11steering over the one with the hydraulic.

1:45:12I just tried to remember when you tweeted that and I couldn't remember what the car

1:45:15was.

1:45:16It was a couple months ago and actually in the most current issue of Car and Driver they

1:45:19They have an entire multi-page spread

1:45:21talking about the different kinds of electronic assist

1:45:23for power steering.

1:45:24I haven't read it yet,

1:45:25but I wish I could remember what that car was.

1:45:27But it's basically, what you're saying is right

1:45:29in generalities, but I think there was at least one

1:45:32in one car comparison.

1:45:33They said this one, even though this one

1:45:34has electric steering, it has better feeling steering

1:45:36than the other one that has hydraulic.

1:45:38But that is, we're just getting to the point now

1:45:40where I think very few of the very latest

1:45:43electronic systems start to approach

1:45:45that of the hydraulic system.

1:45:47And the one in TIF's 3 Series GT, that one is really not good.

1:45:55That is the biggest thing that would keep me from buying a current 3 Series, is I really,

1:45:59really hate the current 3 Series EPS.

1:46:01It's really bad.

1:46:03It feels incredibly just numb and disconnected.

1:46:06It does not feel natural.

1:46:08This isn't just a sports car driver complaint.

1:46:13driver can feel the difference in this and a lot of people don't like it because it doesn't

1:46:18feel like previous cars.

1:46:21It has a very different feel in the way it feeds back and it's generally not, it doesn't

1:46:26feel the way you expect a steering wheel to feel in use.

1:46:30So all that is to say, the EPS system in the new M3 and M4 is allegedly supposed to be

1:46:37a good one, and the reviews on it have been generally positive but slightly mixed.

1:46:43Casey, what did you think of it?

1:46:46So the most clear and direct way for me to answer this question is to tell you I didn't

1:46:51think about it until Keith asked me.

1:46:54Okay, that's good.

1:46:55That's similar to when you asked me about how the engine noise simulation was in the

1:47:00M5.

1:47:01I said the same thing, which is like, when I was driving it, I didn't even notice or

1:47:05think about it until the end of the trip, when I remembered, "Oh yeah, it has fake

1:47:10engine noise," and I haven't noticed it this whole time.

1:47:12Right.

1:47:13So, to be clear, I took the car out on surface roads, so I was accelerating from almost not

1:47:20moving to probably a smidge more than legal speeds very, very quickly, but I wasn't exactly

1:47:28going around a track or anything like that.

1:47:30Furthermore you know I was getting off the gas quickly and with regard to turns there were always cars in front of me

1:47:36So the best I could do is slow up a bit and then take the turn at probably

1:47:41You know either the speed limit or a hair above it

1:47:44And I wish I could tell you that I'm just saying that so I don't get myself in trouble what that really was the case so

1:47:49I didn't in other words. I didn't get the chance to like really beat on the car

1:47:52But I didn't notice any issues with the steering

1:47:56I thought it felt heavy, which isn't by necessity

1:47:59a bad thing, especially on a sports car like that.

1:48:03I don't recall the specifics of what steering mode it was in.

1:48:06I know I was in the most fierce gear shift on the DCT.

1:48:11There's a term for that.

1:48:12- Right, so you're in like S3, and then whether you were

1:48:16in comfort or sport or sport plus on the steering

1:48:19is a different story.

1:48:21Generally the pro move is sport plus on everything

1:48:23except steering where you put that in comfort.

1:48:26Right, and what I did end up doing very briefly toward the end of the trip is hitting the M button,

1:48:30but I didn't notice any discernible difference in the way the steering felt.

1:48:34But, you know, like I can't stress enough that you should take this with two silos full of salt,

1:48:40because I was in the car for maybe 10 minutes or something like that. And again, it was on surface

1:48:45roads, suburban roads, it was not a particularly wonderful test. But I didn't notice it. The one

1:48:51One thing I did notice however speaking of the gearbox was man when you have that thing on S3 or whatever the most furious

1:48:58Shifting mode is that thing shifts hard like

1:49:02Surprisingly hard not to the point that I would say it was like uncomfortable

1:49:06But it was quick and it was rough. There was no slippage whatsoever

1:49:12additionally

1:49:14I've programmed myself over the years that when I'm driving a car that has only two pedals when I come off the brake

1:49:21It will roll forward that doesn't happen in these cars, right? That's why I like DCTs because they behave like sticks

1:49:28But that's so well, I'm not saying it's bad and I think once I got used to it

1:49:32I would absolutely prefer it but is but having driven my car like two hours prior to come to work and then my friend met

1:49:39Me at work. We just drove around real quick

1:49:41To go from that from my car which you know is a normal clutched car to this car

1:49:47which because I see only two pedals I think of and

1:49:51an automatic

1:49:53When I took my foot off the brake

1:49:54I'm waiting for it to creep and it didn't and it and it took me a second realize what the crap was going on at first

1:49:59I thought I was in neutral but hey, huh?

1:50:01But I as soon as I realized oh wait, this is the DCT car it's probably not you know

1:50:07Disengaging the clutch reengaging the clutch always get that backwards, but it's not you know

1:50:11Manipulating the clutch until I give it a little bit of gas, but it was reasonably smooth

1:50:17It did stop and go traffic kind of speeds just like your car is I mean

1:50:21This is nothing that particularly different might even be the same box. Hey very well could be it was seven speed

1:50:26Is yours a seven speed? Yeah. Yeah. Okay

1:50:28But yeah, I love the car. I thought it was excellent

1:50:31as time goes on I

1:50:34Still think if I if I were to hypothetically buy an m3 tomorrow, I would tick the 6mt

1:50:41You know, give me the clutch gear a checkbox

1:50:44But that being said if what's the the Simpsons line? You know, I I for one welcome our DCT

1:50:51Future DCT overlords or whatever it is. I'm sorry John. I'm sure I butchered that hail ants

1:50:56Yeah, totally. That was that was part of that quote wasn't it?

1:51:00Because it was like ants coming in to take over the world or something. Anyway, that was the sign behind him just going

1:51:05Okay. Okay. So the point being

1:51:07if if if my future is

1:51:10Dual clutch transmissions because the traditional clutch transmission goes away. I'll be sad

1:51:16But I think I'll be okay overall. I think it'll I think it'll work out

1:51:21You should get ready for one one pedal driving. I wish I had a chance to try that

1:51:25I was a passenger when someone was doing that but that that is the future that just as you get used to

1:51:30Dual clutch transmissions. It's gonna be one pedal driving

1:51:33you're talking about like a Tesla you can basically drive the car with one pedal in most conditions if you're careful because

1:51:39Not only does you know not it doesn't creep forward like an automatic

1:51:44But when you take your foot off the gas it acts like it's braking like as you as you let up on the accelerator

1:51:50It goes into regenerative braking and everything so it's like so you can literally drive it

1:51:54with one foot most of the time and you only need to actually use the brake brakes that pinch little discs inside the wheels for

1:52:01Stopping you know not not just emergency stopping stopping

1:52:06Faster than you would normally want to stop probably but that's been true for as long as the Jeep Wrangler has been around because I assure

1:52:11You you put a Jeep Wrangler at 60 70 80 miles an hour at highway speeds

1:52:15You take your foot off the gas and that box is gonna stop or it's gonna roll over and explode

1:52:19I'm not talking about like yeah, you get a minivan there that wind resistance will slow you down

1:52:23Yeah, did you see by the way that Elon Musk tweeted like a week or two ago that they were?

1:52:28Increasing the zero to 60 time of I believe the p85 by doing an over-the-air update

1:52:33Did you see the videos of people's reactions as passengers? Yes. Oh god, that was fantastic

1:52:39Well, cuz that's seriously fat. I mean, it's it's what 3.2 second 3.1

1:52:43No

1:52:43it's I think the most shocking thing about is that it feels more like an amusement ride because it's not accompanied by

1:52:50First of all that the torque curve is different than on any kind of gas engine

1:52:54The second is it's not accompanied by sort of any clamor, you know any sort of roaring engine or any of the car noises?

1:53:00So the best analogy I think of is those

1:53:02amusement park rides that that have a thing that accelerates the entire roller coaster from a dead stop up to high speed and it's not an

1:53:09Engine, you know, it's something else. It's kind of like and so yeah

1:53:12If it seemed like it would be shocking but I would prefer the engine the sound of an engine in a sporty car

1:53:17Yeah, and just like the Tesla I especially with the p85d now the all-wheel drive crazy one

1:53:24I'm really I would love to drive one of those just I've never I've never driven a Tesla

1:53:29I'm curious if I'm gonna drive one. That's the one I want to drive of course and

1:53:33I'm just I would love to try that out sometime

1:53:36It's not really possible to because like they like is it still the case where it's test drive

1:53:41But you have to give them five grand to get on the waiting list. I don't know I have heard that story

1:53:45But anyway, so I I am really curious to drive that just to see how it is how it compares to like a really sporty

1:53:52gas car

1:53:53Ultimately though like I totally get the appeal of like keeping your sporting needs

1:53:58basic and and to that end I was I spent a lot of time on the couch this week because I've been really sick and

1:54:04So I started looking into the Porsche Cayman and so the GT4 was announced today, right?

1:54:10Yes, so but even I actually been looking at Cayman stuff a couple days ago because they admit they had it on that top gear

1:54:16thing and

1:54:19And I know I know our friend Matt Pansarino likes it and a bunch of our bunch of our car friends

1:54:23Think well of the Porsche Cayman Porsche Porsche. What am I supposed to be saying here? Porsche, okay

1:54:28- You'll find out if you buy one.

1:54:30(laughing)

1:54:32- So, I've also never driven a mid-engine car.

1:54:36I think if I was going to buy a small, fun car again,

1:54:39which I probably shouldn't,

1:54:40'cause last time it was a pain in the ass,

1:54:42but if I was gonna buy a small, fun car again,

1:54:45I think what I would buy would be

1:54:48the previous generation of Cayman,

1:54:51and I think even just the S,

1:54:52not like the super crazy GTES, whatever,

1:54:54I don't know much about their lineups

1:54:56and how the differentiation goes.

1:54:58But what I would want would be a six-speed

1:55:01with hydraulic power steering

1:55:03in a relatively simple lightweight car

1:55:05with a good amount of power.

1:55:06And I think the 2010 to 2012 Cayman S is that.

1:55:11Like I think if you're gonna have a small sporty fun car

1:55:16going like the purist route

1:55:18with just rear wheel drive, six-speed, mid-engined,

1:55:22I think that's a really powerful combination.

1:55:24that's why everyone loves it so much, I think that would be the way to go.

1:55:28Not like super technical like the new M3, M4, not even really the new modern Caymans

1:55:34that have like the EPS, they have more advanced everything, more expensive of course, but

1:55:40just like everything more electronic, more advanced.

1:55:43Just the old style, just six speed, a real physical parking brake, you know like that,

1:55:51there's a lot of appeal to that I think.

1:55:53What would you guys do?

1:55:54- I don't know, that's a tough call.

1:55:56On paper, that's probably the right answer.

1:55:59I've always fancied an S2000,

1:56:01which is lower class than what you're talking about,

1:56:04but I've always liked them.

1:56:05- Well, still very widely regarded though.

1:56:07- That is a Marco sized car.

1:56:09(laughing)

1:56:10Like, 'cause I can't buy an S2000, neither can you, Casey.

1:56:13Have you ever tried to sit in one?

1:56:14- I've driven one.

1:56:15- Like, they're not size for us.

1:56:17It's like being in a car a half size too small for you.

1:56:20- That's very true, but I do like them.

1:56:22I wasn't prepared for this question.

1:56:24I'd have to think about it.

1:56:26I have a few friends like the guy who owned the R32.

1:56:30He still has an E36 M3, which with not a lot of work,

1:56:35can be a phenomenal track car or just that sort of car,

1:56:41even if you don't turn it into a track queen,

1:56:43just with a little bit of work,

1:56:44it can be reasonably quick and just handle unbelievably well.

1:56:51There's something to be said for the Toyota, Peru

1:56:53They're absurdly slow woefully slow like

1:56:57Almost so slow that I wouldn't ever be able to drive one slow

1:57:01That's what I was gonna say about even his choice of the Cayman like it's kind of weird for your fun car to be slower

1:57:07than the

1:57:09That's a good point yeah

1:57:11No, I mean this in practice. I would probably never actually get another car because I don't like having multiple cars

1:57:17I like having one good all-around er

1:57:19You know rather than having like family boring car and small fun car

1:57:24I'd much rather have the one all-around her and that's you know

1:57:26Especially if they make an all-wheel drive version of the m5 then that's it

1:57:30Like that's just that's it unless see and what I'm basically hedging against is if they've ruined everything

1:57:35So like, you know if they bring in the new EPS system the next generation m5 looks that they will almost certainly do

1:57:41You know do I have to have a terrible EPS system to get this fun car?

1:57:45"that's all-wheel drive?"

1:57:47If so, it would be a lot less satisfying to me, most likely.

1:57:50So I'm always worried that all the new stuff

1:57:55is gonna ruin everything I liked about the old stuff,

1:57:56so I better get an old one quickly

1:57:58and be able to save it forever,

1:58:00which of course doesn't really work.

1:58:02- I put the picture of the Cayman

1:58:03that I thought Marco was talking about.

1:58:06It does look kind of weird to me too,

1:58:07but the model, I think the Cayman is a good idea.

1:58:11in that sort of range it's you know it's the the simple mid-engine sort of pure sports car thing

1:58:18they're just ridiculously expensive but the the one i would get is the generation i don't know if

1:58:23this is like the first generation that took the rear little spoiler thing and pulled it into the

1:58:28headlights as you can see in that picture like where the where the you know that little thing

1:58:32is sticking out of the end of the car and it actually goes into the headlights and it's also

1:58:36like a little ridge on the headlights themselves the first generation they did that that's the one

1:58:40one I would get. I think that's the one Marco was talking about.

1:58:44Yeah, I'm talking, I read this good article on Jalopnik, I just put it in the show notes,

1:58:48titled "How Much Better is the New Porsche Cayman Than the Old One?" and they compare

1:58:52the new one, which is the model 981, versus the old one, which is the model 987. Yes,

1:58:57the numbers go backwards, it's weird. So that's what I'm talking about. The 987 is the one

1:59:02that actually, like the way they're describing it and how it looks and how simple and traditional

1:59:06it is, that appeals to me.

1:59:08Whereas the new one really doesn't.

1:59:10- Oh, so you want the one where the little,

1:59:12the spoiler does not go into the headlights.

1:59:14- Maybe.

1:59:15- Yeah, that's the black one.

1:59:16That's the black one in this article.

1:59:17I think, I don't like how that one looks quite as much.

1:59:21I don't know about the other attributes of it.

1:59:23I think you did the test, but either one--

1:59:25- Do you mean the tail lights?

1:59:26- Yeah, the tail lights, sorry.

1:59:27- Oh, okay, that makes a lot more sense, yeah.

1:59:29- I was also confused for a second there.

1:59:31- Was I saying headlights the whole time?

1:59:32- Yes.

1:59:33- I'm looking at the picture of the tail,

1:59:34the back of the car.

1:59:35I mean, I don't think the back of either of them

1:59:37look very good, to be honest.

1:59:39- I'm just saying, this is just how I'm choosing

1:59:41to identify the generate when they redid the styling

1:59:44for the new generation, that is the most distinguishing

1:59:46feature of the, it's the easiest way to tell the new one

1:59:48from the old one, 'cause you can tell from the whole car,

1:59:50right, but the easiest way to say is,

1:59:52just look at the tail lights, does the spoiler go into them?

1:59:55Or does it not?

1:59:56- Right, and the one I like is the older one

1:59:58where the spoiler does not go into the tail lights.

2:00:01- Yeah, I don't like the styling of that one as much.

2:00:03Not that I love the spoiler going into the taillights,

2:00:05but that's again just my signifier for the overall car.

2:00:08But I don't know, you get to test ride multiple.

2:00:10They're both good choices, but like I said,

2:00:12it would be weird to buy,

2:00:14like this isn't small enough and fun enough to be an excuse.

2:00:19Like if you wanted to get something like,

2:00:21that's more like a go-kart, like, you know,

2:00:23I don't know how to say Ariel Adam,

2:00:24but because I think that actually is faster than your M5.

2:00:27- Oh, very much so.

2:00:28- 'Cause there's not really a car there.

2:00:30- I know, but I'm just saying like,

2:00:31- It's just like an engine in a seat.

2:00:32- If you're going to get something slower than your M5,

2:00:35it should be significantly lighter, significantly smaller,

2:00:38significantly different experience.

2:00:40Whereas I think the Cayman starts to push up into like,

2:00:43well it is actually kind of luxurious inside

2:00:45and it is actually not as light as even something like,

2:00:49yeah obviously the aerial atom, but I think the--

2:00:52- Like the Alpha 4C is interesting, right?

2:00:54But all the reviews say that it's a lot of fun,

2:00:57but that the interior really sucks.

2:00:59- It's also ugly as sin.

2:01:00- Yeah, it has its bad days.

2:01:04- Yeah, I would test drive the Caymans

2:01:07and see how much fun you think it is

2:01:08and how much more tossable and small and nimble it feels.

2:01:11Like, 'cause it's also a pretty wide car too, you know?

2:01:14- Yeah, I mean, again, the reality is

2:01:16I'm not really looking to buy another car right now.

2:01:19Like, I'm perfectly happy with the setup I have now.

2:01:22- Well, that actually begs one of the questions

2:01:24I wanted to ask you, which is,

2:01:25you are two thirds of the way through your lease,

2:01:27is that right?

2:01:28- Yeah, yeah, I mean, I gotta pick out

2:01:30something new this winter, this coming winter,

2:01:32like in almost a year, or decide to buy this one out.

2:01:35- So sitting here now, and obviously a lot can change

2:01:38in a year, even in the car industry,

2:01:40what do you think you would do?

2:01:42- I've said in the past, and I will continue to say that

2:01:46if I had to replace my car today, for whatever reason,

2:01:49if it's like stolen or something,

2:01:50if I had to replace it today,

2:01:52I would get basically the exact same thing.

2:01:53Like I would tweak some of the options,

2:01:55but I would get basically the exact same car.

2:01:57Like I love this car.

2:01:59I don't have any reason to look at anything else.

2:02:02Like, there's every other car I've ever owned,

2:02:05all of them, even the 1M,

2:02:07every other car I've ever owned,

2:02:09as I've owned it, I've looked at other cars

2:02:11and been like, "Ooh, I would really like that instead."

2:02:14Or, "I would really like to upgrade to that."

2:02:16There was always something about it that really,

2:02:18something about every car I've owned,

2:02:19there was always something about it

2:02:19that I wasn't really happy with.

2:02:21With this car, that's not the case.

2:02:23This is the first time, and I mean, God, it better be,

2:02:25right? (laughs)

2:02:26This is the first time where I have no major complaints.

2:02:30I even have very few minor complaints.

2:02:33My current idea is, absent any new information

2:02:37about when an all-wheel drive version might become available,

2:02:40I would probably just get another one just like it,

2:02:42except change a couple of the options.

2:02:44But that's really it.

2:02:45Like, I'm not motivated at all to look around

2:02:51at other models and change up the situation here.

2:02:54It's just a-- it's a frickin' amazing car.

2:02:56It's perfect in every way that I really need it to be.

2:02:59And even the all-wheel drive,

2:03:02like I don't really need the all-wheel drive.

2:03:04I'm doing fine without it.

2:03:06I should probably just buy this one out.

2:03:08The M cars used and maintaining an M car out of warranty

2:03:14is not a great use of money.

2:03:17- I remember looking into getting an extended service plan

2:03:20for my car and I talked to the BMW dealer about it

2:03:24And they had a really helpful whiteboard sitting on a chair

2:03:29in the finance manager's office.

2:03:33And it was a plot, if you will, I guess a table of,

2:03:36here's all the regular maintenance services one would need,

2:03:41brakes, oil, clutch, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

2:03:45And I remember vividly that for each of these line items,

2:03:50and I'm making up numbers now,

2:03:51it would say, "Oil, $150, M, 300.

2:03:55Clutch, $2,000, M, 4,000," or whatever the numbers may be.

2:04:00And it was insane.

2:04:03So a new feature they have in Car and Driver these days

2:04:05is showing you used cars,

2:04:08how much they've come down in price

2:04:09and what things to look out for,

2:04:10like, oh, in this car, the struts always crack

2:04:13and check for this and check that it doesn't have, you know.

2:04:15And so the one in the back of the most recent issue

2:04:18was a Ferrari 355, and they give kind of the maintenance

2:04:22numbers of what you can expect to pay.

2:04:24- Those are the worst. - For that thing.

2:04:26(laughing)

2:04:27- So you have BMW, then you have the M car,

2:04:30and then you have these supercars,

2:04:33it's just like another doubling of the price of everything.

2:04:36Forget about oil changes and everything,

2:04:37but this is just as ridiculous as you might think.

2:04:40Then it's like, you know, the tires are expensive, fine.

2:04:44These tires last, you know, 5,000 miles,

2:04:47They're 700 bucks each, whatever.

2:04:48It's a high performance tire, I understand that.

2:04:50By the way, you can't get them changed on regular things

2:04:52because regular tire changing equipment

2:04:54will damage the magnesium wheels.

2:04:56So you have to get them done just at the Ferrari dealer.

2:04:59And everything costs a million dollars.

2:05:02And the one that really got me is like,

2:05:04we were talking to an owner,

2:05:04like how much money should you set aside for this,

2:05:07what is it now, like 10, 15 year old car, 20?

2:05:10I don't even know how old it is, right?

2:05:11How much money should you set aside for yearly maintenance?

2:05:13He said, "Just set aside five grand a year."

2:05:15And you're like, "Oh, that's not so bad, I guess."

2:05:17five grand a year, right?

2:05:18But then one of the line items at the bottom is,

2:05:21every three years you need to change the timing belt

2:05:23and it's seven grand.

2:05:24(laughing)

2:05:25- Oh, God.

2:05:26(laughing)

2:05:27- Because they have to pull the whole engine out of the car.

2:05:30- To change the timing belt?

2:05:31- Yes, every three years.

2:05:33And by the way, some of them had brass valves

2:05:35and if they had brass valves,

2:05:36that caused the manifolds to overheat

2:05:38and those were like 900 bucks each.

2:05:39And it's just like, nothing on this car is under $500.

2:05:43You know, the floor mats are always over $500.

2:05:46It's like an every three years seven grand thing in addition to the five grand you set aside per year for an ancient Ferrari

2:05:53So you got a lot of money on one of these cars

2:05:55Yeah, and the supercars like you know, like you think you're not getting a hundred thousand miles out of that clutch

2:05:59Oh, yeah

2:06:00so they think the wheels don't like the front wheels will last fifteen thousand the back wheels will last about five thousand and each wheel is

2:06:05700 bucks and

2:06:07Yeah, so I mean, you know M cars are not nearly that bad

2:06:12It's they're much closer to regular cars

2:06:14But you don't have to pull the engine out of the car to do maintenance on it like that's the thing with the main engine cars

2:06:18That's where you have to look out for the Cayman

2:06:20It's a lot of things like a lot of things that a lot of regular maintenance

2:06:23Does have a lot more labor just because it's so damn hard to get at the engine. Yeah

2:06:28We should talk about my car now before we go. All right, bring us back down to earth. No, I mean my Ferrari

2:06:34Eyes on the prize here. So yeah your turbo Ferrari

2:06:39What is this my car is always the sort of entry-level?

2:06:43mid-engine Ferrari and it started with the 348 and I've sorry followed it through the whole range of things has to go with threes and

2:06:49Changing to fours and so on and so forth and as I mentioned to Drance on Twitter

2:06:54Every time they introduce a new one starting from the 348 and through the five comes out 360 the 430 like the whole the whole

2:07:01Way up the chain

2:07:02There's always something weird about the styling of the car that when I first go and I see it I go

2:07:07"Mmm, what did they do with whatever it is?" and then it always ends up growing on me.

2:07:11And so here is the Ferrari 488 which is replacing the 458.

2:07:15It looks a lot like a 458 just like that, you know, it's less of a departure than the 458 was from the 430.

2:07:21But it's got some weird stuff in it. Did you hear? Honestly, this looks pretty good to me.

2:07:26I'm looking at the Wired article on it.

2:07:28Well, so the shape of the car is great. Like I have no qualms about the overall shape of the car.

2:07:32That's why I always like this car.

2:07:34That's why I like it better than like the the front engine the current thing is the f12 and the 599

2:07:40You know I like it better than than the supercars like the f50 f40

2:07:43La Ferrari because they always kind of look alien

2:07:46This is the car like because it's the balance between you know

2:07:49I like the mid engine shape and I like I like the fact that it's not super duper

2:07:53Exotical I do always kind of admire the super top-end Ferrari cars, which is all I want to see La Ferrari on top gear

2:08:00But the weird aspect on this one I think is the little the little hip inlet treatment

2:08:05And that seems weird to me and again these cars

2:08:08Always look so different in person sometimes for the better sometimes for the worse

2:08:13So I think I'll have to wait until I see one of these in person, but I do really like this overall shape

2:08:17I think I like the overall shape even better than the 458

2:08:20But I don't know about those the shoulder inlet the hip inlet whatever you want to call above the rear wheels

2:08:26I think it works for me and and overall the front end and the back end I think are both very good as well

2:08:31I I would say overall this is one of the better-looking Ferraris I've seen in the last decade

2:08:35Because I I have not liked most of the way they the way most of them look I most of them to me have looked

2:08:41either bland or

2:08:43Completely ridiculous and this one I think kind of falls in the middle like it looks like a normal nice fast car

2:08:49And it has some some strong accents, but it doesn't look totally ridiculous to me. I would agree

2:08:54It's going a little bit into Lamborghini territory where it starts to look more masculine than feminine you know and

2:09:00So like that's what I've always loved about the Ferrari cars is they always are kind of like smooth and nicely sculpted

2:09:06And they don't do the thing where they want to feel they feel like that look like a transformer alright

2:09:10That's why you know

2:09:11Little kids bedrooms they have Lamborghinis on the wall, but they look like crazy

2:09:15They look like you know a Gillette razor handle right

2:09:19Crazy fins and slats and stuff like that whereas the Ferrari ones were always much more elegant like even if you just look like you know

2:09:26the testeros or

2:09:27348 yeah, they have the whole side strakes and everything

2:09:30but it's it's a more elegant treatment than you know like the Aventador which totally looks like a transformer right and

2:09:35This one has a little element of the sort of techno futurist

2:09:39Transformer kind of things even more than I think the LaFerrari does LaFerrari is a little bit smoother than this

2:09:45But like I said the overall shape and proportions where the wheels are where the overall shape of the car if you just draped the whole

2:09:51Car and covered all the inlets. I really do like that

2:09:53I like how they've refined the front end of it to look now the turbo engine

2:09:57That's you know, it's another one of those end of the era

2:10:00It's like when they got rid of the big, you know ball shifter with the metal gate on it, right, you know, yeah

2:10:05you know the time comes and goes and you know, I understand like

2:10:10can't deny the turbo but I

2:10:13I assume, if you look at the things that Ferrari concentrates on in its cars, it seems one

2:10:19of the things they're not willing to compromise thus far is that it has to sound like a Ferrari.

2:10:23And I can imagine quite a lot of the things Ferrari does go towards "Yeah, but this sounds

2:10:29better."

2:10:30Because that's part of the whole experience of owning the car.

2:10:33The turbo is going to change how the car sounds, but I'm hoping if any manufacturer is going

2:10:37to have an interesting nice stirring engine noise from an engine with a turbo.

2:10:45Ferrari will figure out a way to do it but this may be the end of that sound I love to

2:10:50hear that makes my head turn whenever I'm driving around here.

2:10:53I can pick it out from a mile away.

2:10:55That's the sound of a Ferrari engine naturally aspirated V8 just revving up some crazy person.

2:11:01Whether they're behind me, in front of me, or in oncoming traffic I always hear it before

2:11:05I see it and that's the sound I want when I get mine which will never actually happen.

2:11:11Buy me a separate house so I can keep my Ferrari in.

2:11:14Just take down the damn tree.

2:11:16And a staff to maintain it.

2:11:19Yeah, you gotta like also buy a dealer to put next to your house to service it.

2:11:24Yeah, because you can't just take it to anybody.

2:11:26Yeah, and everything costs a bazillion dollars.

2:11:28That's why people don't drive these freaking things like.

2:11:30Don't you realize if I drive it I'm getting inching closer to the next scheduled 10 grand

2:11:33maintenance on my Ferrari. Yeah, it's like you can take it to the grocery store and that's

2:11:38like total cost of ownership of $1,000 for that trip. It's crazy. It has consumables.

2:11:45Everything in it is consumable. Yeah, the whole car. Every car is consumable but they

2:11:49take it to another level in the supercar territory here. Yeah, because the wheels are like, well,

2:11:57they're going to be gone shortly and each wheel is super expensive. I wonder if you

2:12:00get a Ferrari, will they sell it to you with like all season tires?

2:12:07Maybe a cargo net for the hood, trunk, whatever that is?

2:12:11Is there even any cargo space?

2:12:12Yeah, the front.

2:12:14Yeah, but they've scooped it down to make these big like, you know, like a Viper almost,

2:12:18these big like scoop things.

2:12:19I was gonna say, done for aero reasons.

2:12:20I'm sure there's a fitted set of luggage you can buy.

2:12:23Yeah, for another ten grand.

2:12:25Yeah, no, every supercar has a fitted leather luggage that goes into the little cubbies

2:12:29that they give you for...

2:12:30(laughing)

2:12:32- Oh God, this is ultimately why I don't fantasize

2:12:35about owning a supercar, because none of that

2:12:37sounds appealing to me at all.

2:12:39Like, I thought it was even too annoying

2:12:41to have the 1M in the 3 Series.

2:12:44- But this would be your fun car.

2:12:45If you wanted to get a fun runabout car,

2:12:48this would not feel intimidated by your M5.

2:12:51It would be like, yeah, the M5 is my regular

2:12:54kind of boring car, and then when I wanna have fun,

2:12:56I hop in this and I only do that,

2:12:58like put 500 miles on it a year.

2:13:01- Yeah, but see, the whole reason why I like the M5

2:13:04is because it is a really amped up version

2:13:09of a normal family sedan.

2:13:11And so my thing is, I don't really do anything unique

2:13:16or fun with my cars.

2:13:19I don't go to tracks, I'm not like driving

2:13:21along mountain roads or anything for the most part.

2:13:24I'm doing very boring things.

2:13:26I'm driving around the suburbs going grocery shopping.

2:13:28- Yeah, but even just doing boring things in this

2:13:31would be different than doing boring things in your M5.

2:13:34- The reason I like the M5 is because

2:13:36my life is doing extremely boring things

2:13:40in a way that's really fun to me.

2:13:42And so that, like, the M5 is,

2:13:44I love doing boring things in that car.

2:13:48If I had like a supercar like the Ferrari,

2:13:50I would first of all feel infinite stress about it.

2:13:54- Well, this Ferrari is not really a supercar.

2:13:57The LaFerrari is a supercar.

2:13:58I know they wanna call it a hypercar,

2:14:00and that these are supercars,

2:14:00but I think we should not allow

2:14:03this name inflation to take place.

2:14:05The entry-level Ferrari,

2:14:06I guess you're gonna call it California, the entry-level.

2:14:08- Isn't this like 240 grand or something?

2:14:10- Ah, I don't know.

2:14:12I would say this is not a supercar.

2:14:15- I beg to differ.

2:14:16- Yeah, I don't know about that, John.

2:14:19- Put it this way, the McLaren P1 is a supercar.

2:14:21the MP12 whatever C thing is not a supercar.

2:14:25- The MP4 12C?

2:14:27- That's not a supercar with P1 is.

2:14:28- It's not?

2:14:29- And the Ferrari, like, the top of the line

2:14:31are the supercars.

2:14:32They kept trying to change the name of like,

2:14:33oh, those are hypercars.

2:14:34What is every Ferrari a supercar?

2:14:36No.

2:14:37- I don't think I'd buy your argument.

2:14:38- Anyway, yes, it's very expensive,

2:14:40but like, it's the same thing as like,

2:14:41if you got a convertible.

2:14:42Like, if you got a convertible,

2:14:44you can get a convertible version.

2:14:45- No, I can't, I'm bald and I burn easily.

2:14:47- No, I know.

2:14:47But like, that would be a different driving experience.

2:14:50Like, the experience of driving is,

2:14:51even if you drive it in the same way,

2:14:52the sensations and sounds of driving the exact same distance

2:14:56and speed in this car would be so different.

2:14:57Not to mention the whole idea of like the thing that you're,

2:15:00like the view out of this thing

2:15:01and the view behind this thing.

2:15:03And like just, it's a different experience driving this car

2:15:06than it is driving something that's like,

2:15:08it feels like a different type of, you know,

2:15:10like that's what you're looking for.

2:15:11- Is there a view behind you?

2:15:12Can you see anything out the rear window?

2:15:14- Barely, right?

2:15:15But that's part of the experience.

2:15:17Like it will feel different.

2:15:18And it's kind of the same way you have the, the 1M,

2:15:21like that it's giving you a different experience.

2:15:23That's why I think a super cheap convertible anything

2:15:26would be different enough from your M5

2:15:27that you may consider it the fun car.

2:15:29And then you could say, well, yes,

2:15:30it's half the speed of my M5, but it's a convertible.

2:15:33That makes it very different.

2:15:35- Yeah, that's fair.

2:15:36That's why the slightly older Cayman

2:15:40is an interesting option to me,

2:15:41because so it's smaller, lighter, mid-engined, lower.

2:15:44But I think the problem, when I had the 1M,

2:15:48The problem was I never wanted to drive the 328 anymore.

2:15:52I couldn't balance it.

2:15:53I only wanted to drive the 1M because I have family

2:15:57obligations and space reasons, and I was stressed out about

2:15:59ever getting a single little scratch on it because it was

2:16:01this irreplaceable, unique, limited edition car.

2:16:05It stressed me out too much to own it, and it was always a

2:16:07struggle to balance that.

2:16:09That's why I think my ultimate best choice is to just keep

2:16:13buying really nice four-door sedans.

2:16:15Plus, I never liked sitting basically on the ground.

2:16:18You already are on the ground.

2:16:20No, this is lower than that.

2:16:22I was talking about Marco's height.

2:16:24No, any of these, including most likely the Caymans,

2:16:27you know, any of these,

2:16:28like you're basically sitting on the street.

2:16:30You can just get a phone book

2:16:31and you can sit on those phone books

2:16:33they deliver to your house

2:16:34and you have a reason to use them for something.

2:16:36(door slams)