0:00:00And you're gonna hear all the coughs and sniffles and everything else that normally we have
0:00:06time to take out.
0:00:08It has nothing to do with our studio, which is excellent, and I'm very enthusiastic about
0:00:11this, but it has everything to do with the fact that we want to get this out immediately.
0:00:15Meanwhile, I'm watching Jon and Tiff take pictures.
0:00:18Put your camera down.
0:00:19I'm trying to get every time I take a picture.
0:00:23Okay, so this is our special WWDC episode.
0:00:28We are recording it the day of the keynote, and it is right after the keynote, or I'm
0:00:33sorry, right after the afternoon session.
0:00:35We are at the Macworld Studios, so thank you very much to Jason Snell for letting us crash
0:00:40his studio and use his equipment in order to get this podcast to you lickety-split and
0:00:44not sound like garbage.
0:00:46So thank you very much, Jason Snell.
0:00:49Everyone tweet him a big thank you just so his inbox explodes.
0:00:51At @jsnell.
0:00:52Or you can listen to his podcast, The Incomparable, on 5x5.
0:00:55Email Marco!
0:00:57(laughing)
0:00:59So some stuff happened today.
0:01:01Today was a busy day.
0:01:03And John, do you have any thoughts about today by chance?
0:01:08- We should have talked about a plan of attack
0:01:09for this podcast, 'cause there is way too much
0:01:12that happened today for us to discuss
0:01:13on one episode of the podcast.
0:01:14No doubt we will be talking about these things
0:01:16for many episodes to come, and it probably would have been
0:01:18a good idea for us to have a plan of like,
0:01:20okay, today we're just gonna talk about iOS 8,
0:01:22or we're just gonna talk about Swift,
0:01:24or we're just gonna talk about,
0:01:25but we don't have a plan because we are disorganized.
0:01:27- Are you suggesting that you did not do your homework?
0:01:29- Oh, we didn't know it was gonna be enough until today,
0:01:31so how could we, you know, but anyway,
0:01:32I think that we, what do you wanna do?
0:01:34Do you wanna focus on a particular area,
0:01:36or do you just wanna do, give broad sweeping stuff?
0:01:37'Cause if we wanna do everything,
0:01:39we need to have a list of bullet points
0:01:40and say, okay, we gotta talk about this, that, that, that,
0:01:41and get through them all.
0:01:42Otherwise, we're gonna dive into one of these topics
0:01:44and spend the whole show on it, which I'm also fine with.
0:01:48- Well, let's just start going down the list,
0:01:50and if we end up going off on a tangent
0:01:52that lasts 12 hours, then so be it.
0:01:54So, what did we see today?
0:01:57Well firstly, on the way in, we got celebrated
0:02:00by the line people, which was weird.
0:02:04I've never seen that before.
0:02:05So as you're on your way in,
0:02:07so you wrap around the block a couple times,
0:02:09and then at something like 7, 7, 3,
0:02:11well, something around 7, 30, they let you into Moscone,
0:02:16and you end up going to the second level of Moscone.
0:02:19And so you go up these escalators, and we hear cheering.
0:02:22We hear cheering going on, and I'm thinking to myself,
0:02:24what is happening?
0:02:26And sure enough, they had, I guess they're Apple employees,
0:02:29but they had all these Apple employees lined up,
0:02:31saying like, "All right, yeah, be excited."
0:02:35And it's like 7.30 in the morning,
0:02:36we're all exhausted and jet-lagged,
0:02:38and they're trying to pump us all up,
0:02:40and I'd never seen that before, and it was odd.
0:02:42- That's what they do with Apple Store openings, right?
0:02:44They have the Apple Store,
0:02:45they have employees come out and applaud for everybody.
0:02:47I mean, at least at that point,
0:02:48people know what they're excited about,
0:02:49but on the way into the keynote,
0:02:51we don't know what we're going to be excited about.
0:02:52And there was plenty in the keynote worth applauding.
0:02:54Had we known what we were going to see,
0:02:56we would have been jazzed as well probably, but we didn't, so it was just a bunch of tired
0:02:59people.
0:03:00Yeah, it was different, to say the least.
0:03:01Then they tried to get a dub-dub-DC chant going, which was extremely, I don't know,
0:03:05it was odd.
0:03:06But then we made it into the keynote room.
0:03:08That worked out well.
0:03:09And the keynote started fairly slow, I thought.
0:03:12I didn't think it had that much speed to it.
0:03:14And everyone seemed really confident and really relaxed.
0:03:19And I didn't know what to make of it.
0:03:20So what was the first, what was some of the first stuff they covered?
0:03:24I didn't start taking notes until about halfway through,
0:03:25so I don't know if you guys, all right.
0:03:28This is an accidental podcast.
0:03:30- I mean, one of the things I noticed first was,
0:03:31you know, just like the mood of everyone.
0:03:32Like, you know, Tim comes out,
0:03:34and Tim is relaxed and laid back.
0:03:37And this is a side of Tim we haven't seen a lot of,
0:03:40if any, really, and he was kind of fiery.
0:03:43And like, he was like taking jabs
0:03:45at Google and Windows and stuff.
0:03:46And it was the kind of thing, you know,
0:03:48we've seen that from jobs in the past,
0:03:51but Tim has always shown a more reserved approach
0:03:53of those usually and he'll put in jabs here and there that are more subtle in the past
0:03:57but I think this was the first time we saw him really like feel free to just dig in and
0:04:04he seemed and I think what we saw play out is that the reason he was so confident and
0:04:11laid back, which is the same reason that all the presenters were so confident and laid
0:04:15back is because they knew they had a kick ass lineup that they were announcing and like
0:04:21they were very proud and confident
0:04:23in what they were about to show us,
0:04:24and we didn't know yet.
0:04:26So at the time, we just like, wow,
0:04:27that's, they seem like they're really relaxed today.
0:04:31And it flowed very well.
0:04:33It was much more put together,
0:04:36much more seamless than, I would say,
0:04:39any Apple event in the last three years.
0:04:42- I would say that he seemed less rehearsed.
0:04:44Not that, I mean, we know they rehearsed like crazy, right?
0:04:46But in Tim Cook's first several keynotes,
0:04:50you could tell that he was well-rehearsed.
0:04:52And he would come out there and say what he was going to say.
0:04:55And it was like, oh, I can see that he is saying something
0:04:57that he has pre-scripted.
0:04:58Whereas, I mean, now it was the same exact thing this time,
0:05:00but he sounded less rehearsed.
0:05:02So again, because he was relaxed.
0:05:03As for the rest of the keynote, there
0:05:06was so much stuff in this keynote
0:05:08that whole important technologies got
0:05:11like a slide and five seconds.
0:05:13And it was like, wait, what was that?
0:05:15And then they're on to the next thing.
0:05:16Because there just wasn't enough time.
0:05:18And I mean, it's obvious they're trying
0:05:20keep it to a two hour keynote.
0:05:21They're trying not to go three hours, four hours,
0:05:23whereas other companies, I mean Google's done that,
0:05:25Microsoft's gone really long, Sony,
0:05:27if you wanna go to the gaming space.
0:05:28There have been press conferences
0:05:29where when people have a lot to announce,
0:05:31they say, well we've got a lot to announce
0:05:32and everybody will love it, and they just go.
0:05:34And Apple was like, we have a lot to announce,
0:05:36but we're gonna hold it to two hours
0:05:37'cause we've got a schedule to keep.
0:05:38So there was so much in this keynote
0:05:41that there were things that got one slide
0:05:44that are more significant than things
0:05:45that got like 10 minutes in previous years.
0:05:48- Yeah, it was, you could tell, like, you know,
0:05:50we were, what I love about this is that so much of it
0:05:53was a surprise, you know, there were very few spoilers
0:05:56of any value here, even like, you know,
0:05:58one of the biggest spoilers, Healthbook,
0:06:00was kind of wrong in, you know, how--
0:06:02- And it was like an asterisk on the end of the presentation.
0:06:04It was like, oh yeah, we got this health thing,
0:06:06whatever. - Yeah.
0:06:07- Well, I mean, it was like we said,
0:06:08the possibility of like them introducing APIs
0:06:11for integration with third-party things,
0:06:12and then maybe something of their own in the future,
0:06:14and so Apple was not going anywhere near anything wearable
0:06:16or anything today, it's like we have a bunch of APIs,
0:06:19and third-party applications can use it,
0:06:21and I think that'll be great, guys, right?
0:06:22Okay, moving on.
0:06:23I mean, it was one, in the scope of this keynote,
0:06:25it was a minor announcement.
0:06:27- Yeah, it was really wild, and I gotta say,
0:06:29to back up just a smidge, that I loved snarky Tim Cook.
0:06:33Oh, I thought it was great.
0:06:34I really, really did.
0:06:36And I think that the corny jokes that Apple made,
0:06:40like, during last WWDC, and I can't think of them
0:06:43off the top of my head, maybe it was with Eddy Cue
0:06:46and iWork and he did like the band poster, whatever it was.
0:06:50And I just felt like that was so corny and contrived.
0:06:53And this year, with the exception of the hair thing,
0:06:55which I think we've taken a little too far,
0:06:57I thought everything else was well done.
0:06:59I thought it was the right amount of snark,
0:07:00the right amount of humor,
0:07:02which is not something I'm used to seeing from Apple.
0:07:05I mean, Jobs had his own shticks here and there,
0:07:07but generally speaking, they've been fairly by the book.
0:07:10And I love this slightly more casual Apple.
0:07:13the titles in the WWDC sessions where it was like,
0:07:17"Well, wouldn't you like to know?"
0:07:19And, "Well, we wish we could tell you."
0:07:20I love this new Apple.
0:07:22I don't know, Jon, as the old man of the three of us
0:07:24in terms of Apple lineage,
0:07:26what do you think about this more casual setup?
0:07:29- The thing about the humor and the jokes is,
0:07:31like, there's two parts to that.
0:07:31One is how relaxed the people are making the things,
0:07:34and we already said the people seem relaxed
0:07:35'cause they were confident
0:07:36'cause they had a lot of good stuff to show,
0:07:37and because they're experienced.
0:07:38When they brought out the newer people
0:07:39who hadn't presented as many times,
0:07:41they were shakier, kind of like Craig was in the beginning,
0:07:43but now he's more experienced.
0:07:44But the second thing is,
0:07:46the jokes were just as silly and corny as they've always been
0:07:50but when you're announcing things
0:07:52that get the audience excited,
0:07:53the audience is predisposed to forgive your mistakes
0:07:55because they're so jazzed about what you just showed before.
0:07:57And so that is the effect.
0:07:59Basically, if you have great things to show,
0:08:01if you have announcements that the audience is gonna love,
0:08:03they will also be in the mood to laugh at your stupid jokes.
0:08:06And if you're showing stuff that's boring
0:08:08and you make a stupid joke, you're like,
0:08:09not only are you not entertaining me
0:08:10and releasing things that I want,
0:08:11but you're making a stupid joke and wasting my time.
0:08:13So it's all about audience atmosphere.
0:08:16And we were, as the announcements rolled on,
0:08:20we were all very receptive to anything.
0:08:22- That's true.
0:08:23And I think that the pace in general
0:08:25seemed not that brisk in the beginning,
0:08:28but by the end, my goodness, it was a fire hose
0:08:31just getting leveled at all these developers
0:08:34and in the best possible way.
0:08:35But things got fast.
0:08:37And this comes back to what you were saying earlier
0:08:38about, oh yeah, well, we've got this health thing.
0:08:40oh yeah, and we've got these new dev tools.
0:08:42Oh yeah, and we've got this new language.
0:08:43And it was unbelievable how quick it was.
0:08:46There was a lot happening today.
0:08:47- There was also just a level of refinement
0:08:49that we haven't seen in a while.
0:08:51And even with Jobs, this isn't really a Steve Jobs thing,
0:08:55'cause even with Jobs, there were some weird
0:08:56and sloppy moments in the events.
0:08:59For the last couple years, Apple's events have seemed
0:09:02stuffy, almost sterile, kind of uptight.
0:09:05And I was even worried, 'cause when we saw Eddie Q
0:09:08and Jimmy Iovine last week,
0:09:10I think Eddy Cue did not come off that well either.
0:09:12I think he came off a little uptight there.
0:09:13And so I was kind of worried,
0:09:15that's kind of the apple we've seen recently.
0:09:18And like last year, like you said,
0:09:21some of the jokes were kind of overplayed or stale.
0:09:24They ran too many videos last year.
0:09:26- Yeah, that's another good point.
0:09:27- Yeah, and then they kept running the same video
0:09:30for like three events in a row.
0:09:32Like it was, this year they ironed out all those bugs
0:09:36in their presentation and it was just a smooth presentation
0:09:40from start to finish, there were no remote control cars,
0:09:43it was just very, very well done.
0:09:46And I mean, what they announced,
0:09:47I don't even know where to begin.
0:09:49It was just a lot.
0:09:53- I think we can begin with OS X
0:09:54because I think despite people thinking
0:09:56that this is gonna be, and us also saying
0:09:57this was gonna be a big OS X release,
0:09:59and it is visually, I guess from the user perspective,
0:10:01I think it was the smallest of the things
0:10:03that they announced today.
0:10:04'Cause they put up the big slide,
0:10:05it's gonna be OS X, iOS 8,
0:10:06and then dev, developer tools, right?
0:10:09And all of those three things,
0:10:11they led with the smallest one, like they always do,
0:10:12you save the best for last.
0:10:13So I think we could dispense with OS X pretty quickly
0:10:16if you wanna cover that in the beginning.
0:10:18- Oh, so your review is gonna be short as well then?
0:10:20- It might be, I don't know.
0:10:21I mean, the thing about it is,
0:10:22I mentioned to you guys before,
0:10:24a lot of the things they put in the iOS section
0:10:26or in the dev developer tools section of the keynote
0:10:29also apply to OS X.
0:10:30It's just that we don't think of them that way
0:10:32because anything that's shared between OS X and iOS
0:10:35is gonna go into the iOS session
0:10:36because that's what everyone cares about
0:10:37because the Mac is a smaller platform.
0:10:39But that stuff applies to OS X as well,
0:10:40so I'm not entirely sure.
0:10:41But I think we can start with OS X.
0:10:44What we thought was gonna happen was a big visual refresh.
0:10:47What we got was a big visual refresh.
0:10:49- It wasn't that big a visual refresh though?
0:10:51I mean, it's pretty big.
0:10:52- I was actually surprised how radical it wasn't.
0:10:56- Yeah, that's exactly my point.
0:10:57- What did you expect that you didn't see?
0:10:59- Well, I expected everything to be all white
0:11:01and thin and wispy and it wasn't.
0:11:03Like it was, it still looks like Mac OS X.
0:11:06It's still, it's not a jarring change.
0:11:10It is an evolutionary change and it's exactly, I think,
0:11:14the kind of change that was warranted.
0:11:16They didn't need to totally throw away everything.
0:11:18Like remember, like I'm not supposed to talk about this
0:11:20on Gruber's show, but remember like, you know,
0:11:22Gruber was even saying like, you know,
0:11:23what are they gonna do about shadows,
0:11:24about layering windows?
0:11:25And it turns out they didn't do anything different.
0:11:27We still have window shadows because windows
0:11:29still are windows, they still look like windows,
0:11:30they're still layered.
0:11:31You know, it wasn't as radical of a change
0:11:34as I think a lot of people were assuming
0:11:36or fearing that it would be.
0:11:37And there are a few weird issues with it
0:11:41that I'm not thrilled with.
0:11:43I think the translucency difference
0:11:47between the sidebar is translucent to the desktop
0:11:50and the title bar is translucent to the view under it
0:11:53within its own window.
0:11:54And there's these weird layering things
0:11:56that are conceptually a little odd,
0:11:57but I think overall it looks great
0:12:00and it looks like a nice modernization
0:12:03of what they already had rather than throwing it all away
0:12:05and making something totally, radically different.
0:12:08- Here's the thing about that new look.
0:12:11It's not the type of thing where you're gonna install
0:12:15this new OS and all your apps are gonna look like the apps
0:12:17that they showed in the keynote.
0:12:19Because this stuff doesn't get enabled by default.
0:12:21Like you have to opt into it.
0:12:22And so Apple's apps are gonna look like that.
0:12:24Apple's apps are gonna have title bars
0:12:27with the window widgets right in line with them,
0:12:28like they do already in some apps,
0:12:29like the App Store app is like that, I think,
0:12:31and a couple other ones.
0:12:33and Apple's apps are going to have a translucent sidebar,
0:12:35and Apple's apps are going to have translucent title bars.
0:12:38It's not going to transform all your apps
0:12:40into this crazy translucent thing.
0:12:41So for the most part, what most people's Macs
0:12:45are going to look like is they're
0:12:47existing apps with different title bars, different fonts
0:12:49in the menus, and a different doc,
0:12:51but everything else looking more or less the same.
0:12:55And I don't know if Apple will be
0:12:56able to get everybody on board the "hey everybody,
0:12:59make all your sidebars translucent,
0:13:01make all your title bars translucent,
0:13:02and tuck the content underneath it.
0:13:04I don't know if they're gonna go in that direction.
0:13:06So I'm trying to think about what real Macs
0:13:08will look like running the F70,
0:13:10not what we saw in the keynote.
0:13:13- Yeah, I don't know.
0:13:14The other thing that struck me about the visual refresh
0:13:17was when I saw Windows 7 for the first time,
0:13:20and this was when I'd already had a Mac at this point,
0:13:22and I was already all in on OS X,
0:13:24I felt like, what do they call the Windows 7 visual refresh?
0:13:28I can't remember now.
0:13:29It doesn't matter.
0:13:30But anyway, but where everything got true--
0:13:31- It's not Metro, right?
0:13:32something else. No, it was pre-metro. But anyway, the point is, it was all very translucent
0:13:37and similar ideas. And I actually thought, from the very first time I saw it, that the
0:13:40Windows 7 stuff looked pretty good. I agree with Marco, especially with this odd amount
0:13:46of translucence, where I'm translucent to one thing here, but I'm translucent to this
0:13:50other thing there. It's Arrow, by the way. Feedback from the chat, sorry. It's what?
0:13:53Oh, Arrow. Yes, thank you. So, Arrow I thought looked great from the beginning. And I don't
0:13:58even know if Microsoft is backpedaled on that or not. But this new OS X setup, I look good,
0:14:04but I have my reservations.
0:14:05Well, that's what I'm saying. I don't think your screen is going to look like that. I
0:14:08think it's going to look like what it looks like now, and then Safari might look different
0:14:12and Mail will look different. Most of your apps will look the same.
0:14:14That's a fair point.
0:14:15I mean, the whole thing with the translucency is to what end? To what end? Why are these
0:14:22things translucent? That is always the question. And it's Apple's job, I think, to justify
0:14:28why someone would want to do this to their application.
0:14:30Because there are downsides in terms of readability,
0:14:32in terms of variability.
0:14:34Is this something that people want?
0:14:35Does it look really awesome on people?
0:14:37Like Brush Metal, the justification was basically
0:14:39people think it looks cool.
0:14:40And so everybody made their apps Brush Metal.
0:14:42Whether it was or not, that was, you know,
0:14:44if you were to ask Apple, why should people do this?
0:14:46Be like, well, people think it's cool.
0:14:47And they did think it was cool,
0:14:48and they used Brush Metal everywhere.
0:14:49Well, I don't know if people think
0:14:51this translucence is all that cool.
0:14:53I mean, iOS 7 has it as well.
0:14:55Granted, the APIs were not as open,
0:14:56so everyone couldn't go hog wild with it.
0:14:57But it will really depend on whether people think it's worth adopting these things.
0:15:02Because if they don't, it's just OS X, but everything, you know, candy-colored and
0:15:07iOS 7-ified.
0:15:08Yeah, but didn't they say during the keynote that the idea was to give you some context
0:15:12within your document, which I don't really buy for the record.
0:15:14Yeah, but like, what does that mean?
0:15:15What does the context mean?
0:15:16Yeah, exactly.
0:15:17Previously, I wasn't aware that my document continued off the top of this page, but now
0:15:19that I can see the green image showing through my title bar, I'm aware that it goes off
0:15:23the—like, how does that provide you any more context than simply clipping the image
0:15:26at that point?
0:15:27- And always showing a scroll bar
0:15:28so you could see the scroll position.
0:15:30I forget which word they were using,
0:15:32I don't think it was context,
0:15:33but they did have a talking point
0:15:34of how translucency provides you.
0:15:36One thing was you can pick your desktop background
0:15:39and that will influence how your apps look
0:15:40to let the personality of your desktop background
0:15:42show through in your apps.
0:15:43Is that something that people want?
0:15:44Do they want the personality of their desktop background
0:15:46showing through in their apps?
0:15:47Do they just wanna use their apps
0:15:48to read their mail and stuff
0:15:49and they don't wanna see the desktop image behind it?
0:15:51It looks like a big model mess.
0:15:52But again, these are all opt-in things.
0:15:54Your apps aren't just gonna all of a sudden
0:15:56become translucent, Apple is obviously opting into them, and they will be a good test bed,
0:16:00and it will be interesting to see if this is something people want. Whether developers
0:16:04think it looks cool and they just ship it to people and then people complain, or developers
0:16:07never even ship it and it just ends up being a different looking Mac OS.
0:16:11So, anything else on the visual refresh? Because, I mean, I think that's pretty much all I had
0:16:16to say about it.
0:16:17I like the idea of them redoing the, trying to constrain the icons into the different
0:16:24Arrangements of having circle icons and square icons and having all the little slanty
0:16:27They showed them people taking pictures of the iMac screen up
0:16:30But I'm sure there's more showing all the little slanted rectangle icons all looking identical identically slanted and everything. That's a reasonable unification
0:16:38It's a nice middle ground between people thinking. Oh OS X is gonna use round recs for all its icons
0:16:42It's not right. There are still distinct shapes and again
0:16:45I think third parties might just ignore this and say well, that's good for you Apple
0:16:48You can do whatever the hell you want with your icons, but we're still making our icons look like we want
0:16:52So I think there will be a continued tension between what Apple is doing with Yosemite
0:16:58and what third-party developers do with it.
0:17:00And it might be a little weird, kind of like iOS 7 is, where some apps just don't come
0:17:03all the way on the iOS 7 train.
0:17:05You've got these apps that, you know, their icons haven't changed since iOS 6 and their
0:17:09interfaces may be different but they don't look like iOS 7.
0:17:13They still don't have the iPhone 5 screen size support?
0:17:17Not that bad, but yeah.
0:17:19All right, we are sponsored this week first by our friends at Igloo.
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0:17:27Igloo's next release, Unicorn, is coming this summer.
0:17:31With it comes social task management, a brand new feature fully integrated throughout the
0:17:35Igloo platform, providing the perfect balance between project management and getting your
0:17:39day-to-day work done.
0:17:40You can manage projects with task lists, optimize for large groups of people, you can assign
0:17:45tasks from any piece of content like requests and changes be made in a document and you
0:17:49can create personal tasks that are assigned to you or another person and you can see all
0:17:53your tasks in one unified view.
0:17:56You can learn more about this at igloosoftware.com/atp or you can come see Unicorn in person.
0:18:05Igloo is hosting an event in Toronto, which I think is in Canada, on June 12th with customer
0:18:10presentations by Hulu and Nextel International.
0:18:13So go to igloo.com, or sorry, igloosoftware.com/toronto to register for that event.
0:18:20Otherwise once again, go to igloosoftware.com/atp to check out igloo, the internet you'll actually
0:18:26like and all the cool stuff they're working on these days.
0:18:28Thanks a lot to our friends at igloo for sponsoring our show once again.
0:18:32Yeah, speaking of igloo and other like web type applications, you know all the web apps
0:18:35that started to change their look to look like iOS 7 after iOS 7 came out?
0:18:40"Hey, I'm just glad that websites aren't still trying
0:18:42"to look like iOS old, because that looked terrible."
0:18:45- Right, but a lot of people who have either
0:18:47web components to their products or have web apps
0:18:49took the hint from Windows 8 as well,
0:18:51but also iOS 7, especially in the Mac world,
0:18:53to make their websites look like that.
0:18:54And with the change in look of OS X now,
0:18:57that turns out to be a good move.
0:18:58I mean, even Apple is doing it.
0:19:00They showed what the App Store looks like,
0:19:01and that's what they were showing, right?
0:19:02The new App Store app on the Mac looks all different.
0:19:06That look, that kind of flat, candy-colored look,
0:19:10If you did that everywhere across your website
0:19:12on your iOS device, and now the Mac has switched over to it,
0:19:14that was a good planning because people like that look.
0:19:17It's simple, it's clean,
0:19:18and now it is across the entire Apple platform.
0:19:21- Yeah, so this keynote was to some degree
0:19:25wonderful and terrible for me.
0:19:27And it was wonderful because they announced
0:19:30that we're getting airdrop between devices,
0:19:32between OSes, I guess I should say,
0:19:34between Yosemite and between iOS 8, which is great.
0:19:38But the downside was that we also learned later on that there's this handoff thing that
0:19:46where if you're, say, working on an email or something like that, and then you want
0:19:51to finish that email, you're working on it on your phone, you want to finish it on your
0:19:55computer, and then all of a sudden you can just pitch this email through the ether, through
0:20:01the air, onto the computer.
0:20:03And that sounds awesome, and I'm really enthusiastic about it.
0:20:06I think, and they never confirmed or denied, that that's probably using Bluetooth Low Energy,
0:20:12and none of my Macs have Bluetooth Low Energy.
0:20:14It could be using AirDrop, because if AirDrop works between them, and it's supposed to be—the
0:20:18whole idea is it's proximity-based, so it's not—it's not like they mention, like, "Oh,
0:20:22you won't have things from your home showing up on your work computer," or vice versa.
0:20:25So it could be Bluetooth Low Energy.
0:20:26It could also be AirDrop, which uses that, like, ad hoc Wi-Fi networking thing, I think.
0:20:32But all of it requires developer support.
0:20:34Like, this is not magic.
0:20:36So Apple's Mail, if you use Apple Mail on your Mac and you use Apple Mail on your iOS
0:20:40device, then yeah, you can do that.
0:20:42But what if you use something else on either one of those places?
0:20:45Or what if the things you use, the developer hasn't added support for this?
0:20:48It still seems like a thing that you have to do, and it could kind of be fidgety enough
0:20:51that, like, it demos really well, but I don't know.
0:20:55Like, I understand the frustration they're getting at, because I know when I'm doing
0:20:58something on one device and I want to just transition to it over there, it would be nice
0:21:01everything picked up, but this requires so many parties to cooperate and everything to
0:21:06work for that handoff to work.
0:21:09Getting the handoff to work could end up feeling like, from the user's perspective, more trouble
0:21:13than it's worth.
0:21:14Like, maybe it's just better to just save it as a draft and then go over and pull up
0:21:18the draft over there.
0:21:19Like, the old things that we used to be.
0:21:20It demos well, and I think it's a good idea for this product, but I'm skeptical about
0:21:24how seamless it will really be in real life.
0:21:26So I think we'll have to see.
0:21:28I think it's gonna be one of those things
0:21:30like notification syncing between devices
0:21:33and how we were talking last week
0:21:34how there seems to be this grace period
0:21:36in current infrastructure that we have now
0:21:38where if you get an iMessage and you're at your computer,
0:21:41if the window's focused,
0:21:42then your phone won't buzz in your pocket,
0:21:43but if you don't attend to it within a few seconds,
0:21:45your phone will buzz.
0:21:46And it's that kind of thing,
0:21:47and they have worked on that over time,
0:21:49and it has gotten better over time.
0:21:51It's still not perfect, but it's gotten better.
0:21:53This is probably gonna be the same kind of thing
0:21:54where it's gonna start out probably a little wonky
0:21:58and then get better over time.
0:21:59'Cause it's probably built on the Netexium system.
0:22:02- Now, I'm hopeful that it is the peer-to-peer WiFi thing.
0:22:06I'm skeptical, but I'm hopeful.
0:22:08And we'll see what happens.
0:22:09But what else did we learn OS 10-wise?
0:22:13- Well, I mean, one thing that's very interesting, I think,
0:22:16and I don't know if we're gonna talk about this yet,
0:22:17is the iCloud Dropbox, basically.
0:22:20- Yeah, I mean, we talked about whether they would backpedal.
0:22:23Would they just decide to show the file system?
0:22:25Or would they try to figure out something else?
0:22:27And this is kind of like an interesting compromise.
0:22:30What it seems to me is that they wanted to have their cake
0:22:32and eat it too, which is they wanted
0:22:33to have the existing iCloud experience, which is just
0:22:36like, there's no file system.
0:22:37You don't have to worry about that.
0:22:38Every app owns its own files.
0:22:40Everything is an iCloud.
0:22:41Everything is ubiquitous and available everywhere.
0:22:45They wanted to keep that because I think that's good.
0:22:47But they also wanted to add the ability for people
0:22:49who knew what they were doing to have something
0:22:52that was more like Dropbox.
0:22:54And they didn't want to destroy one with the other.
0:22:56make it so like if you're using the system the way you've been using it for the past
0:23:00several years, it will look the same to you.
0:23:02But if you know what to do, then suddenly you get the equivalent of an open, say, a
0:23:05dialog box that's showing you, like, you know, the iCloud sidebar and it suddenly shows you
0:23:09documents.
0:23:10And what I think will happen is once you put iCloud in the sidebar of the Finder, people
0:23:13are going to click on it.
0:23:14People are going to learn they can make new folders there, and people are going to use
0:23:16it.
0:23:17And they'll end up using it like Dropbox.
0:23:19And I think Dropbox has proven that if you constrain—it doesn't make any sense—but
0:23:25If you constrain the world of the file system to a single place that they can hang their
0:23:28hat on, like, "It's in my Dropbox," or "It's on my desktop," people are fine with that.
0:23:33It doesn't matter that the number of levels of hierarchy they create under that are the
0:23:36same as they could make anyplace else.
0:23:38It just gives them a starting point and it makes them feel comfortable.
0:23:40So now, with iCloud in the sidebar, for people who... imagine someone who gets a computer
0:23:46like, "Oh, you should install Dropbox," and you know they can't install Dropbox.
0:23:49You know that phrase, "You should install Dropbox," is like Greek to them.
0:23:52Like, "Well, I don't know what you mean.
0:23:53I don't know how to install software.
0:23:54I don't know, is there a website?
0:23:55Do I do something?
0:23:56Do I download a disk image?
0:23:57Do I get it?
0:23:58Like, nobody knows.
0:23:59And it's just like, look, go to your finder, in the sidebar there's a thing called iCloud.
0:24:02Anything you put there when you're, you know, you can put stuff there and you'll see it
0:24:06everywhere.
0:24:07And that is like Dropbox.
0:24:08It's a folder that syncs.
0:24:09And now iCloud, it's a cloud that syncs, we hope.
0:24:11I mean, all this, well, to see how reliable it is.
0:24:15But it's a reasonable compromise.
0:24:17I like that it acknowledges the fact that Apple has failed to come up with something
0:24:21so much better that eliminates all the evil of the file system.
0:24:24and I think they've taken less of Dropbox is like,
0:24:26the file system is big and confusing,
0:24:28but if you constrain it to this one place,
0:24:31whether it makes sense or not,
0:24:32people suddenly are able, a larger group of people
0:24:34are suddenly able to deal with it.
0:24:36Not everybody, but a larger group.
0:24:38- Yeah, and I think it's, there's also,
0:24:40this has a huge value in PR for Apple,
0:24:44'cause now, like, you know, we've been talking before,
0:24:46like iCloud is always, is this umbrella term
0:24:49that refers to lots of different things,
0:24:51most of which are behind the scenes.
0:24:53In fact, that Eddy Cue talked about this
0:24:55in the Jamiyavine thing last week.
0:24:56This is now a very public-facing version of iCloud
0:25:01and it works the way people expect modern, quote,
0:25:04cloud things to work.
0:25:05It's a cloud sync service for this folder full of files.
0:25:08That's exactly what people want from a cloud service today,
0:25:12for the most part.
0:25:13There's things you build on top of that,
0:25:15but this is what people want.
0:25:17And this is gonna be this big thing
0:25:19that everyone's face uses a Mac,
0:25:20saying, look, it's iCloud, it works, we get it,
0:25:23We're in the cloud, we are doing web services,
0:25:25and they mostly work most of the time.
0:25:27(laughing)
0:25:27- And it comes with your Mac, it uses the iCloud account
0:25:30that they make you set up when you install the OS
0:25:32or when you set up the device.
0:25:33Like you don't have to go to a third party,
0:25:34all the advantages of being part of the platform.
0:25:36Like all those barriers that prevented people
0:25:39from getting Dropbox installed.
0:25:40And in fact, I think there are new APIs in OS X and in iOS,
0:25:45and I guess we'll probably talk about the whole extensions,
0:25:47is that what they call it, extensions?
0:25:49- I believe that's right.
0:25:50- That was in the iOS section,
0:25:51But extensions apply to OS X as well.
0:25:53And so there are extensions in OS X
0:25:55that will let, for example, Dropbox make
0:25:57their application better.
0:25:59So Apple is not just saying, oh, iCloud is built in
0:26:01and we'll be able to do Dropbox-y like things.
0:26:03But in fact, we're helping Dropbox out here too,
0:26:05or helping ourselves out as well.
0:26:08For example, in not having Dropbox in memory
0:26:10hacked the Finder to put those little badges on all your icons
0:26:13to show the green.
0:26:14And they've got an official API for that
0:26:16through extensions, which is their safe mechanism
0:26:19for extending functionality.
0:26:20think the the notification widget things are similar. Aren't those under the
0:26:23umbrella of extensions? I believe so. I don't know, the iCloud Drive
0:26:28thing struck me as so interesting for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it was the
0:26:33tangible manifestation of Dropbox as a feature not a product and I thought that
0:26:38was kind of interesting. And then secondly, this was the I believe the
0:26:43first thing we saw of a series of different features and enhancements and
0:26:49products and whatnot that are all heavily relying on iCloud. And maybe I'm
0:26:55amongst a group of people that are giving iCloud a bad rep for no really
0:26:59good reason anymore. No, they're good reasons. Well, okay, so either way. But they're like, if they
0:27:04double down on secrecy, which it appears they have, they've like quadrupled down
0:27:08on iCloud being the bus for their entire ecosystem. And in
0:27:15In principle, that's wonderful, but that's a lot of pressure to put on a system that
0:27:19I'm not so sure can handle.
0:27:20Yeah, they were saying a lot of the right things, like for example, I forget, maybe
0:27:24this was in the State of the Union, we're not supposed to talk about it or whatever,
0:27:27but one of the services they were talking about, they mentioned push notifications in
0:27:32connection with it.
0:27:34And as we've said on past shows, like, push notifications is one of the things that's
0:27:38under the iCloud umbrella that seems to work pretty well.
0:27:41And we're all hoping, more like that, less like iConcord data.
0:27:45And this presentation was--
0:27:47I mean, maybe it's just an optimistic thing.
0:27:48But when they showed these things,
0:27:50I'm like, I'm optimistic that these new things will
0:27:53be more like push notifications and less like the things
0:27:56that haven't come.
0:27:57Although iMessages, I mean, they added tons of stuff
0:27:59to iMessage as well.
0:28:00And that still continues to be a little bit weird and creepy.
0:28:03So yeah, you're right.
0:28:04They really put a lot of eggs in this iCloud basket.
0:28:06And basically what Apple is doing is, I'm assuming,
0:28:10forcing themselves to get better at this crap.
0:28:12Like, buy-- - Yeah, fair point.
0:28:13- 'Cause it will be disastrous if they continue to fumble
0:28:15and keep putting more and more important things
0:28:17into the iCloud basket.
0:28:19- I'm actually pretty confident in what they're doing
0:28:21because it seems like, you know, Casey, you said like,
0:28:23you know, they're building a lot of this stuff
0:28:25on what appears to be the push notification/iMessage
0:28:29part of iCloud, and that seems to be the part
0:28:32that is operating at probably the biggest scale,
0:28:35and is probably the most reliable.
0:28:37I know people have had iMessage problems here and there,
0:28:39but we don't know how much that is related to
0:28:41like the client side software.
0:28:44It seems like the server side end of that,
0:28:46you know the push notification, the whole push system
0:28:48has been really rock solid for the vast majority
0:28:52of its existence and certainly recently.
0:28:54So I'm actually pretty confident that the iCloud part
0:28:58of this is probably not going to be a problem.
0:29:01Other parts of it, you know,
0:29:02like the client side code might be.
0:29:04- Right.
0:29:05- But it seems like the iCloud services end
0:29:07of what they're doing, you know,
0:29:08And people, iCloud core data sync was a disaster,
0:29:11but that was also probably mostly a client side
0:29:14and design issue, design of that capability.
0:29:17- I mean, or even like documents in the cloud,
0:29:19or a lot of those things kind of work,
0:29:22but had weird things about them,
0:29:24or they started off as synchronous,
0:29:25then they made them asynchronous,
0:29:26and there's not a lot of visibility,
0:29:28and when it doesn't work, even today,
0:29:29if you launch Apple's Notes app,
0:29:31and you know there are notes that you put in
0:29:33on your iOS device, the notes have to sit there for a while,
0:29:36And then eventually your notes show up, you hope.
0:29:38But if they don't, you have no recourse.
0:29:40There's no visibility.
0:29:41And that's why moving to iCloud in the sidebar
0:29:44and putting stuff there for documents,
0:29:46at least that gives you some visibility into what's
0:29:48going on.
0:29:48But the other APIs, that's still a problem with their cloud
0:29:51system.
0:29:52Making it better from a developer's perspective
0:29:54so developers can tell what the hell's going on.
0:29:55But from a user perspective, man, this stuff better work
0:29:57because you have nowhere to go if it doesn't.
0:29:59You just stare at your app.
0:30:00It's not even a busy indicator.
0:30:01You're just like, is my stuff there?
0:30:04Is it going to come?
0:30:06- It's so true.
0:30:07Now aren't they, but they did mention,
0:30:08I think this was in the NDAA session, so I'll be very vague,
0:30:11but I believe they mentioned that they're dogfooding
0:30:14a lot of the stuff they're providing to developers.
0:30:16So a lot of the stuff that they're giving developers,
0:30:19they're using those APIs for their own
0:30:23new features and applications.
0:30:24- Yeah, that was heartening, although it's like,
0:30:27it's helpful.
0:30:30What that means is that if they did a bad job,
0:30:32Apple will know about it.
0:30:33That is the best thing about it,
0:30:34that they'll at least don't know they did a bad job.
0:30:37It doesn't necessarily mean they did a good job,
0:30:38and it's kind of bad if they didn't,
0:30:39because now they're screwing up their own services.
0:30:42Their own headline features are screwed up
0:30:43by their own bad APIs,
0:30:44but presumably because they are dogfooding it,
0:30:46they'll find out that it's bad,
0:30:47and it won't just be this, like,
0:30:49we won't have to wait for developer backlash.
0:30:51Like Apple's own engineers would be like,
0:30:52"Your server-side crap is broken,
0:30:54"and I can't ship my app because it's broken."
0:30:56- So is there anything else that's fun
0:30:58and exciting to talk about?
0:30:59- Oh, I know, before we get to OS X,
0:31:00I just want one more thing.
0:31:01- Oh no, we're not done with OS X yet.
0:31:03- Oh, then the notification center sidebar
0:31:05and the widgets there, and everyone's like,
0:31:07"What does that mean for Dashboard?
0:31:08"Where is Dashboard?"
0:31:09And they didn't say anything about it.
0:31:12I'm pretty sure Dashboard's still there in Yosemite.
0:31:14Jason can nod his head because, yep, he nods his head.
0:31:16- Well, they didn't say, the implication is that
0:31:20you should probably not get too attached to Dashboard.
0:31:21- Right, but anyway, this is a grace period, it seems like.
0:31:24Apple said nothing about the future of Dashboard,
0:31:26but anyone who knows anything about Apple
0:31:28will know that the future of Dashboard is not bright.
0:31:30And this is not a--
0:31:31- I'm saying next year it's gone.
0:31:32Yeah, and this is--
0:31:33Jason just pulled up Dashboard in Yosemite.
0:31:35I'm staring at it.
0:31:35Anyway, it's still there.
0:31:36But this is not news.
0:31:39Dashboard has been kind of stagnant
0:31:40and just sitting there doing nothing for many, many years.
0:31:44It is a pretty old feature.
0:31:45What is it, come in 10.4 or something like that?
0:31:47Yeah, something like that.
0:31:47It's been around for a long time.
0:31:48I use it every day.
0:31:49I still think it's great, but it's clear
0:31:51that it's not just like this year
0:31:53that Apple decided to kill it.
0:31:54It died of natural causes, essentially.
0:31:56So Dashboard is still there.
0:31:57You can continue to use it in Yosemite.
0:32:00I don't know how much longer it will be around.
0:32:02I bet most people won't mourn it, even though I will,
0:32:04because I think it's kind of cool.
0:32:05And you can't, I mean, it's not a direct replacement.
0:32:07Like, the notification center is a skinny little sidebar
0:32:09where it's dashboard took up your whole screen.
0:32:11But third-party opportunity, people.
0:32:14- We are also sponsored this week, once again,
0:32:16by our friends at Warby Parker.
0:32:18Go to warbyparker.com/atp.
0:32:22Warby Parker is a new concept in eyewear,
0:32:25although it's only new to you
0:32:26if you haven't listened to our show ever.
0:32:29Warby Parker, it was a collaboration between four friends,
0:32:31And here's the thing, they believe that eyewear should not cost a fortune.
0:32:36It should be available and affordable to everyone.
0:32:39Eyeglasses should not cost as much as an iPhone, that's ridiculous.
0:32:42So they have prescription eyeglasses, very high quality, and they start at just $95 including
0:32:48the prescription lenses.
0:32:49They even have a titanium collection starting at just $145 including prescription lenses
0:32:55that includes premium Japanese titanium, French non-rocking screws, and all sorts of other
0:32:59niceties.
0:33:00All of their glasses include anti-reflective and anti-glare coatings at no additional cost.
0:33:06All of their glasses come with a hard case, which is awesome, and a cleaning cloth.
0:33:09There's no additional items you need to purchase.
0:33:11They're not trying to nickel and dime you.
0:33:13It's great.
0:33:14They make buying glasses online easy and risk-free.
0:33:17Now you're probably afraid if you think about buying glasses online and you've never done
0:33:20it before, you're probably afraid like, "How will I know how they will look on my face?"
0:33:23They have a couple of ways to address this.
0:33:25They have these awesome online tools.
0:33:27You can use your webcam.
0:33:28They will show, they can even use webcams to help you measure in case your eye doctor
0:33:31won't give you the prescription details about your sizing, which some of them are weird
0:33:35about.
0:33:36They can even help you measure and it's very good, very accurate.
0:33:39And so you can preview everything there and that's cool, but the best thing about Warby
0:33:42Parker I think is that they have this home try-on program.
0:33:45So you can go online, you can pick out up to five styles of glasses that you think might
0:33:50look good on you or look good in the preview thing and they will send them to you and you
0:33:55can try them on in your home risk-free.
0:33:57They send them to you for free, they come to the prepaid return label, you send them
0:34:01back for free.
0:34:02You can try them on in your home and you can see how they look on you in person.
0:34:06And then if you want to buy them, you can.
0:34:08If you don't want to buy them, no problem.
0:34:10And not only that, these people aren't nice enough already, for every pair of glasses
0:34:14that they sell, they distribute a pair of glasses to someone in need through Recognized
0:34:19Vision Charities.
0:34:20And this is great because, you know, there are so many people who lack access to eyeglasses,
0:34:28and you know, if you need glasses, you need them to live, you need them to work, if you're
0:34:33a kid in school, you need them to learn, to see what's on the board, you know?
0:34:36It's so important to people, and so Warby Parker donates a pair of glasses for every
0:34:41pair they sell to people in need, so it's really fantastic.
0:34:44Anyway, go to warbyparker.com/atp to learn more and to check out their awesome glasses.
0:34:52And that's it.
0:34:54So thanks a lot to Warby Parker for sponsoring the show once again.
0:34:57Yeah, I've told the story a hundred times and I'll make it really quick, but when I
0:35:01got a set of Warby Parker sunglasses, I put in like four pairs, maybe three pairs of sunglasses
0:35:07that I, that were my stereotypical, like this is Casey's style, and then I put in a pair
0:35:12or two that were just completely not the sort of sunglasses I would normally buy.
0:35:16And sure enough, the ones that I ended up choosing were one of the ones that I didn't
0:35:20expect to like.
0:35:21So it actually ends up working out pretty well.
0:35:24So really quickly, real-time follow-up with regard to Dashboard.
0:35:28I believe the quote, as I was informed by Jason, was "We suggest you quickly adopt this
0:35:34new technology with regard to the notification center," which is basically Apple code for
0:35:41This is going to die prepare yourselves
0:35:43Yeah
0:35:44And dashboard was like a weird one-off thing with these HTML you kind of widgets or whatever whereas their
0:35:48Replacement is part of a larger system that spans both iOS and OS X its extensions system
0:35:53And I mean maybe that's just an umbrella term and there's no real relation technologically
0:35:57We haven't learned the details yet
0:35:58But they're using that term to say you can write extensions for just I mean people in that audience don't know but extensions
0:36:04We already use that term once on the Mac
0:36:06And it has bad connotations.
0:36:08These are different.
0:36:09And in iOS, it has a totally different thing,
0:36:11which we'll get to when we talk about iOS 8.
0:36:13But these new widget things in the sidebar
0:36:15are part of that system.
0:36:16It's a way to extend the system.
0:36:18And I look forward to new ways to extend the system.
0:36:20Because what this means is Apple has basically
0:36:22come up with a way for both iOS and the Mac for people
0:36:25to write system extensions to extend
0:36:28the functionality of the system.
0:36:29And that whole idea has been like, yeah, right,
0:36:31we'll let you put an icon in the menu bar,
0:36:33but you should really make it black and white.
0:36:35Because we don't like-- you know.
0:36:36And we won't let you move yours around.
0:36:37We can only do that with ours.
0:36:38Yours just go in a random order.
0:36:40Tough luck.
0:36:40Download bartender.
0:36:42So I'm hoping this is the dawning,
0:36:45certainly on iOS, it's the dawning of a new age
0:36:47of extending this.
0:36:48And I'm hoping on the Mac as well
0:36:49that it's a sort of a renaissance of extending the Mac
0:36:54in interesting and safe ways, and Apple approved ways,
0:36:56versus the old way, which is just like
0:36:58third parties figuring out how to get it done.
0:37:01- Yeah, you know, the keynote as a whole,
0:37:02and perhaps this relates more to iOS than the Mac,
0:37:05But I felt like the keynote as a whole was an exercise in Apple doing all the things
0:37:09that we never thought they'd do.
0:37:11They gave us a whole bunch of photo, well sort of, gave us a whole bunch of photo storage.
0:37:16They are allowing extensions, like you were saying, both on OS X, which is to be expected,
0:37:21but also on iOS, including stuff as wild as replacing the system keyboard.
0:37:25And there were a couple other things, now I'm drawing a blank, but there were, oh, well,
0:37:29Swift.
0:37:30There are all these things--
0:37:31The entire extension thing, I mean, that's a huge thing right there.
0:37:33So there are all these things that we all,
0:37:36I think the three of us, everyone really,
0:37:38have been saying, oh, they've gotta do this,
0:37:40but they're never gonna do it because they're Apple,
0:37:41they're stubborn, they're belligerent.
0:37:43- But I don't think it's like a stubbornness
0:37:45or like a philosophical objection.
0:37:46I mean, a lot of us say like, oh,
0:37:47previously there was a philosophical objection
0:37:49and now that has changed.
0:37:50But with a lot of these things,
0:37:51it's like Apple always wanted to do them,
0:37:53but it had to wait for certain things.
0:37:56And on iOS, which I guess we'll transition to soon anyway,
0:37:59but like it was, and iOS was like,
0:38:01we don't have the CPU to do that.
0:38:03We don't have the memory to do that.
0:38:04We don't have the whatever, like background and all that stuff, because they just had
0:38:07priorities and didn't fit into them.
0:38:09And you know, for the sandbox and stuff, we don't have a safe way to do that.
0:38:13And so all of it was like, when we have the CPU, when we have the memory, when we've come
0:38:18up with a safe way for you to do it, we will let you do it.
0:38:20But not before then.
0:38:21Not like, oh, just add it.
0:38:22I know how you can get this to work.
0:38:23Look, if I go to the jailbreak stores, I can get something that does this right now, that
0:38:28lets me put widgets on the lock screen.
0:38:29It's like Apple wanted to come up with—everything had to be in place, and the final thing that
0:38:33had to be in place is we have to have a safe way for you to do things, so you're not compromising
0:38:37the stability of the system, so you're not allowing malware, so you're not doing all—you
0:38:40know.
0:38:41Or your own privacy as well, because they talked about how extensions—very briefly,
0:38:45they spoke about how extensions are going to be sandboxed, and this might be in the
0:38:49NDA session, so I should probably shut up—but suffice to say, they took not only security
0:38:53of the system, but also your information security very seriously.
0:38:56- Seriously. - Like all the things
0:38:57they prioritize for, you know,
0:38:59you are safe using iOS in these ways
0:39:01and we're not going to let you do all the things
0:39:04that you guys all wanna do until we have safe ways
0:39:07to do it within the current envelope of hardware.
0:39:09And then of course it's a lot of work for them
0:39:11to make those APIs and this is the year.
0:39:13This is the year where finally they have crossed
0:39:15the threshold for all these things.
0:39:16And there probably is a philosophical aspect of it as well
0:39:19and if there's been so much shakeup
0:39:20at the high levels of Apple management
0:39:21that you can't discount that as one of the possible reasons.
0:39:24But you have to just look at the way
0:39:27they're giving us all this stuff,
0:39:28and all of it is not the same way
0:39:30that the jailbreak stores gave it to us.
0:39:31It is an official supported API
0:39:33that works with their existing sandboxing
0:39:35and prioritization stuff on the Mac as well as on iOS.
0:39:39- Yeah, so as a way to transition from Mac to iOS,
0:39:43I wanted to briefly talk about,
0:39:45I forget what they called it,
0:39:46what their marketing term for it was,
0:39:47but when you can send traditional SMS messages via the Mac,
0:39:52but your iPhone does the sending.
0:39:56You can actually even take voice calls--
0:39:57- Oh, I believe it's called BluePhone Elite.
0:39:59- Yeah, like eight years ago.
0:40:01- It is very much, in the demo you might be mistaken
0:40:04for thinking it's like, oh, I've been able to do that
0:40:05in Google Voice for years, but it's paired with your phone.
0:40:08No iPhone, none of this stuff works.
0:40:10So, but yeah, but it's the same thing,
0:40:12like the third party products that would basically say,
0:40:14you've got a phone, but you wanna do stuff
0:40:15that your phone could only do on your Mac screen.
0:40:18And it just connects the dots, and it looks really nice,
0:40:20and it's very seamless, and it's something that we're like,
0:40:22yeah, that should work that way.
0:40:24Why do I have to go and pick up the phone
0:40:26or do, you know, having the caller ID show up
0:40:29as a notification, having you be able to answer
0:40:31that call from your Mac.
0:40:32It's using your phone, but they're all in the same house,
0:40:35even if it's in another room.
0:40:36They're all connected on the same network.
0:40:37Why shouldn't this work?
0:40:38And Apple made it work.
0:40:40- I hope it works well, and here again,
0:40:42I hope it doesn't rely on Bluetooth energy.
0:40:44I presume in the case of phone calls, it certainly wouldn't.
0:40:47But nevertheless, I just think it's a really impressive,
0:40:51It's a really impressive way to leverage the platform and really do what you would hope
0:40:55and expect these things to do.
0:40:58And I'm really excited about that.
0:41:00So with that in mind, let's kind of shift gears to iOS.
0:41:03There's so much to talk about.
0:41:04I don't even know where to begin.
0:41:05I remember when I said that iOS 8 was going to be like the Mavericks of iOS, with just,
0:41:09you know, not a lot going on the outside and, you know, and some stuff on the inside.
0:41:13But this is way bigger than a Mavericks release.
0:41:16It's true that it didn't change the appearance that much.
0:41:18very little visually has been changed, but all the number of things they're
0:41:21changing at every other part of iOS is just huge. Yeah, it's really surprising.
0:41:25There were a couple things that jumped out at me really quickly because they're
0:41:28things that have been that have really bothered me over the years. They didn't
0:41:32talk a lot about it in the keynote, but it seems like for iMessages and SMSes
0:41:37and things like that, it seems like all media is ephemeral by default. If you
0:41:42look closely at the keynote after like an image or after one of these audio
0:41:46clips that's I believe new or after a video clip. After each of these it says
0:41:51"Keep." And so the implication, I think they made a very quick mention of it, but
0:41:55the implication was if you don't hit the "Keep" button in the next three days or
0:42:00whatever the number may be, then that's just gonna go away. And I especially
0:42:03have lamented numerous times about how I had gigs upon gigs of, well probably
0:42:08animated GIFs, but one way or the other, gigs upon gigs of photos in my
0:42:14messages app on my phone that I didn't really need and I didn't really want. I wanted them
0:42:19to go away and I wanted them to do that easily and quickly. And this seems like it's probably
0:42:24going to be the answer for that.
0:42:25- Yeah, I mean, they did so, I mean, and this leads very closely to the photos discussion,
0:42:29I think.
0:42:30- Yep, absolutely.
0:42:31- So to recap, basically, they announced this new, a few new things around photos that's
0:42:37basically, like, you know, it's basically what people wanted, which is like, you know,
0:42:42Photo stream as a standalone thing is kind of going away
0:42:46as what it was before.
0:42:47You still have the shared photo streams,
0:42:49that's more of a feature.
0:42:50But as a storage mechanism, photo stream has been
0:42:53massively upgraded and now you just have,
0:42:55all of your photos are just in iCloud.
0:42:57And they use your iCloud storage,
0:43:00which now has a couple of bigger, cheaper plans.
0:43:03And it's not, we're not talking about
0:43:06like revolutionary pricing.
0:43:07What was it like, it was 200 gigs for four bucks a month?
0:43:11- Yeah, whatever was, I think it was--
0:43:12- It was only like 20 gigs for four bucks,
0:43:14but there was cheap plans.
0:43:16I mean, it's much cheaper than it was, right?
0:43:18But like--
0:43:19- But it's still not like, you know, Google level pricing.
0:43:21- We don't have enough information yet
0:43:22to see what this is really gonna be like,
0:43:24but they said the right thing.
0:43:25One of the things they said that I'm glad about
0:43:28was they said we keep your full res pictures, which is--
0:43:30- And videos.
0:43:31- Yeah, and videos, which is opposed to--
0:43:33- It's huge.
0:43:34- What Marco was saying in the past shows
0:43:35that like, if Apple needs to,
0:43:37they should just do a lower res stuff
0:43:38if they can't handle it,
0:43:39when Apple's basically saying,
0:43:40no actually we can handle it.
0:43:41Not only can we handle your florist pictures,
0:43:43we'll handle your video too.
0:43:44Which seems crazy, but hey, go for it, right?
0:43:47And then the pricing, it's like all that announcement
0:43:49means nothing unless they adjust the pricing.
0:43:51And they did adjust the pricing.
0:43:52Have they adjusted it enough?
0:43:53We'll see, but the previous pricing was crazy and punitive.
0:43:56- Well I'm not in love with this pricing,
0:43:58'cause what was it, five gigs for free,
0:44:01which I just think is absurd.
0:44:03That is ridiculous.
0:44:04And then I think it was 20 gigs, is that what you're saying?
0:44:0520 gigs was-- - 20 and 200.
0:44:08- With 20 gigs it's like-- - They have plans up
0:44:09to a terabyte but they didn't say how much those cost.
0:44:11But it's, I mean, either way we're talking,
0:44:12you know, it's not dirt cheap, but it's not that expensive.
0:44:16You know, you're not paying like S3 rates for this.
0:44:18- Yeah, we would hope, what we would hope is that,
0:44:21say you're starting off as an Apple customer now
0:44:23and you're just becoming an adult
0:44:25and taking pictures or whatever, like,
0:44:26we would hope that as you accumulate pictures
0:44:28that Apple's pricing keeps pace and comes down.
0:44:31But for people with existing large collections,
0:44:33we're gonna have to look at that and do the math
0:44:35and say, is this worthwhile for me to do this?
0:44:36And they didn't mention anything about iPhoto
0:44:38and I have no idea what the fate of iPhoto is,
0:44:40and they showed this Photos app, which is like the iOS--
0:44:41- Oh, come on, you know what the fate of iPhoto is.
0:44:44- No, because the iOS Photos app doesn't do anything close.
0:44:46There's iPhoto on iOS too, you know what I mean?
0:44:48The Photos app is on iOS, and there's also iPhoto on iOS.
0:44:50- I think iPhoto's going with Dashboard.
0:44:52- I don't know. - Earlier, even.
0:44:54- You can't use them for the same,
0:44:55like, the whole idea that, you know,
0:44:57can you take your photo collection
0:44:58and just put it all up into the cloud
0:45:00and deal with your photos that way?
0:45:01I don't know what the answer to that is yet.
0:45:03I don't think that the keynote gave us enough information
0:45:06to know that.
0:45:06- I think the implication's very clear.
0:45:09iPhoto has always had this problem where
0:45:12iPhoto was originally conceived in a world before
0:45:16the iPhone and sync and it never had multi-device sync
0:45:19and everything else.
0:45:20And PhotoStream kind of half-assed it in there,
0:45:23but it wasn't a very good solution
0:45:24and certainly was very confusing.
0:45:26And then the iPhone comes out and the iPad comes out
0:45:28and they have this Photos app which is not iPhoto,
0:45:31distinctly not iPhoto and it has its own way to do things
0:45:34and store things and manage things.
0:45:35And then they bring iPhoto to iOS, which is weird,
0:45:38'cause they didn't replace photos with it.
0:45:40They just brought this other photo management program,
0:45:41which iPhoto and iOS, in my opinion, has never been good.
0:45:45But maybe that's just me, but it certainly,
0:45:46I don't think, has gotten widespread adoption.
0:45:48- How could iPhoto be any good on iOS
0:45:50if all your photos were in the photo app?
0:45:51- Exactly.
0:45:52- But it seems like what they've done
0:45:53is brought that same dichotomy to the Mac.
0:45:55And I don't understand why iPhoto
0:45:57can't be the same app it is today,
0:45:59but all the photo storage done the iCloud way.
0:46:01- Oh, I think the new Photos app on the Mac
0:46:04they showed off that's coming out, was it next spring?
0:46:07- They said it's not tied, they said next year.
0:46:09And so basically it means it's not tied to an OS release
0:46:12and it's not, like it got pushed basically.
0:46:14It didn't make it into Yosemite, right?
0:46:16- I'm pretty sure the implication there though
0:46:18is that the new Photos app for Mac that's coming next year
0:46:21is the replacement for iPhoto.
0:46:23- But what they showed was not,
0:46:25what they showed was the iOS Photos app inside a window
0:46:27with a dinky little toolbar.
0:46:28It doesn't come close to like doing keywords and maps
0:46:30and slideshows and all the stuff that--
0:46:32- I bet it will.
0:46:33Because Photos app on iOS already has much,
0:46:37it doesn't have the management stuff,
0:46:38but it has the maps and the albums.
0:46:40It's getting a lot of that already.
0:46:42I think the implication of where they're going
0:46:44is very clear.
0:46:44iPhoto's going away, this is the replacement,
0:46:47we're just not done with it yet.
0:46:48- I mean, the good thing is that from the photos
0:46:51in the cloud, it's what we're talking about with messages.
0:46:53What they're basically saying is,
0:46:54some of these photos will be on your local device,
0:46:56but you have access to more photos.
0:46:57Like, I mean, Everpix did it.
0:46:58You didn't have every single photo in your photo library
0:47:00on your phone just because you uploaded to Everpix,
0:47:02but you could scroll through all of them
0:47:03and you can show any one of them,
0:47:04and Apple is doing that now.
0:47:06Apple's saying, yeah, we're gonna do that too.
0:47:08All your photos can't be on your iOS device.
0:47:10We'll still borrow your photos,
0:47:11but you can get to all of them from your iOS device,
0:47:13and you can get to them all from your Mac
0:47:15sometime next year, and that's what we're looking for.
0:47:16Unified photos protected in the cloud,
0:47:19hopefully locally cached on your Mac
0:47:21when the hard drive is big enough,
0:47:22and some of them on your phone.
0:47:23- Yeah, and if the Mac version is good enough
0:47:28and able to and willing to also import SLR pictures,
0:47:32pictures from stand-alone cameras,
0:47:34then that will be amazing.
0:47:36So I don't know, I think it's very, very clear
0:47:42where they're going.
0:47:42- I agree.
0:47:43- I think, do you think Aputure continues to?
0:47:46I think it probably does, but.
0:47:48- Yeah, the pro stuff will lag, but like the whole idea,
0:47:50it's what we want, we want to have local fast access
0:47:53to our photos, but we want not to worry
0:47:55that if our computers die, that we lose our photos.
0:47:58So we want Apple to store them and back them in the cloud,
0:48:00have it be synced everywhere, but have fast local copies.
0:48:03And Aperture, as the pro app, may be like,
0:48:06well, the pro people don't want their stuff in the cloud,
0:48:08and it's too big anyway, so let us have it on local hard drives.
0:48:11But this is going to come.
0:48:14The whole idea of a transparent storage hierarchy,
0:48:16where the canonical version is stored in a data center
0:48:19somewhere really safely for you, hopefully not in HFS Plus,
0:48:23and all of your local versions are just caches of it.
0:48:26And everything is synchronized, and everything
0:48:28is fast because of local caching,
0:48:30and it's all seamless. That's where all storage is going. And for giant bins of data that
0:48:35we have, and our giant bins are basically photos and video for regular people, that's
0:48:38what we want. A storage hierarchy that ends in the cloud and that is transparent to us.
0:48:42Yeah, and I feel like the photo setup that Apple's building, I'm still grumbly about
0:48:49the price, but if that's the most of my complaints, then we're still doing a pretty good job.
0:48:53And I'm really looking forward to it. I'm really looking forward to trying it. The only
0:48:56thing I wonder though is how are we going to get the years upon years upon
0:49:00years of photos that we've already taken into... That's what I was thinking like if
0:49:05they came up with a new version of iPhoto or if the Photos app is the new
0:49:07version of iPhoto, they would import them or say okay now we're just gonna
0:49:11transparently make your iPhoto library in the cloud and it'll take forever but
0:49:14you know there's a path to that. Did they talk about in the keynote the
0:49:18cloud kit for like a slide and a half right? Yeah, like Gruber said they gave
0:49:22CloudKit like 90 seconds I mean it was it was quick. Did they mention the what
0:49:26you get with CloudKit in terms of storage limits,
0:49:28or was that only in the state of the union?
0:49:29- No, they did say--
0:49:30- They went over it very quickly.
0:49:31They said that it was free with limits,
0:49:33and you get like, well, there was, we don't,
0:49:35we can't, the limits were not stated,
0:49:37so we can't tell you which limits are.
0:49:38- I thought they were.
0:49:39- No, they was in a document that, yeah.
0:49:40- Anyway, they said free with limits,
0:49:42and those limits are pretty darn high,
0:49:45we could say, from the discussions we've seen.
0:49:48So high that I don't understand how Apple is able to give,
0:49:51to provide the CloudKit free with limits,
0:49:53to the, it looks too good to be true.
0:49:55- Oh, to correct, they did give the limits
0:49:58in the presentation for what the global,
0:50:00you store whatever petabytes of data.
0:50:01They did say that, but they didn't tell you
0:50:02what you get per user.
0:50:03- Right, well, yeah, but that's interesting, though,
0:50:05because, sorry, so if they gave the petabyte stat,
0:50:07they're saying if you make an iOS app,
0:50:09and say your iOS app is gonna store something big,
0:50:11like audio files or video,
0:50:13who knows what it's gonna store, whatever,
0:50:15for the limits are like, with the free thing,
0:50:18before you start paying any money is,
0:50:19oh, you can store a petabyte of data
0:50:21for all users of your app combined.
0:50:22And we don't know if anything is per user or whatever,
0:50:24but why is it that if you develop an app,
0:50:26you get to store a pan about it for free?
0:50:28Where if you wanna store your photos on iCloud,
0:50:30you have to pay 99 cents to get like 20 gigs
0:50:32and $3 to get 200 gigs.
0:50:34- I couldn't agree more.
0:50:35- The per user, what you get per user,
0:50:37I don't think we're allowed to say,
0:50:39but it's pretty small.
0:50:41I think it's safe to say that.
0:50:43You'd have to have a lot of users of your app
0:50:46to hit these limits. - I guess that's their way.
0:50:47But still, and the bottom line is,
0:50:49say you make some viral app like Candy Crush
0:50:50and you store a bunch of crappy content for everybody
0:50:54and you run into the petabyte,
0:50:55Apple is storing a petabyte of your data for free.
0:50:58- Well, Amazon and Microsoft are storing a petabyte.
0:51:01- It just seems like that the pricing
0:51:03is still a little bit out of whack.
0:51:04Like I would rather see Apple try to,
0:51:07I don't know how to rationalize that.
0:51:09I don't know how to rationalize their willingness
0:51:10to do this stuff for free for an app developer
0:51:13while charging individual users so much more to get,
0:51:17I mean, I like the new pricing better than the old pricing,
0:51:19but I still can't decide whether it's something
0:51:22that fits with their own offering for app developers
0:51:27or fits with what people are going to be willing to pay for.
0:51:29Because that's the whole thing with this.
0:51:31If someone gets a Mac and you're like, oh, you
0:51:33should totally sign up for iCloud and do this monthly bill,
0:51:35I'm like, that's going to be a hard sell on people.
0:51:38And same thing with when you get your iOS device
0:51:40and you run into the free storage limits.
0:51:42And you've got to say, oh, well, you have to pay money now.
0:51:45And it just seems a little bit like a bait and switch.
0:51:47I would rather have it be more upfront
0:51:48and have some assurance that this is something
0:51:50people are gonna do that we're all gonna take advantage of
0:51:53and that is the price that we're going to deal with
0:51:55instead of having it creep up on you.
0:51:57- Yeah, oh and real time follow up quickly,
0:51:59the limits per user are made public in a public document,
0:52:02which we'll put in the show notes if I remember too,
0:52:03which I probably won't because I'm very hungry and tired.
0:52:05It is 100 megs per user for assets, one meg for database.
0:52:10And then there's some transfer limits, but yeah.
0:52:12- So those limits are tiny, but yeah.
0:52:14So Apple's--
0:52:16- Like you couldn't build Instagram with that.
0:52:17Like that would, you would probably hit that.
0:52:19- You'd have to have like a wildly popular app
0:52:22that just saves like high scores or some crap like that.
0:52:23But still, again, Apple's willing, this is like,
0:52:25go ahead, try to make an app that has 300 million users,
0:52:28then we will end up storing a petabyte of data for you,
0:52:30but somehow that's okay with them.
0:52:32- Right, and I think, you know,
0:52:35there are limits with CloudKit.
0:52:36As far as we know, we haven't learned much about it yet,
0:52:39and I haven't looked at the docs much
0:52:41'cause I haven't had time yet,
0:52:42but as far as we can tell,
0:52:44this is not gonna let you build a website.
0:52:46- You can't even run anything server-side,
0:52:48as far as we know.
0:52:49- Yeah, it seemed like it's all local,
0:52:51it's all client-side code that tells the servers
0:52:53roughly what to do, but it's like, you know,
0:52:56fetches and stuff, it's like, it doesn't seem like
0:52:58there's a way, for instance, like for me with Overcast
0:53:00or like Underscore with Feed Wrangler,
0:53:02like it doesn't seem like there's a way to like run
0:53:03persistent crawlers on their servers
0:53:06and have them notify you when new stuff comes in like that.
0:53:08- Well, they do have the notification thing.
0:53:10- But like a client has to pick up that data
0:53:13or generate that data to tell other clients
0:53:15that it's available, like your server can't do it.
0:53:18- Right, exactly.
0:53:19And so you can't have a web version,
0:53:21you can't have obviously Windows or Android versions,
0:53:23so it's still a very limited system,
0:53:26it's not gonna replace servers for a lot of people,
0:53:28and it's not like, you're not gonna build
0:53:30the next Instagram with this,
0:53:31'cause the next Instagram is gonna wanna have to work
0:53:33on Android at some point.
0:53:34- But it is an improvement, like,
0:53:36you can take it as a different take
0:53:40on what Core Data to iCloud.
0:53:42That's what Core Data is. - Oh, definitely.
0:53:43- 'Cause now we have to have a schema-less database
0:53:45with queries that they'll run for you to notify your app,
0:53:48And that's the bucket you put your thing in.
0:53:50But it's a different take on iCloud Core Data
0:53:52in that it's not something that started local and went cloud.
0:53:54It started cloud the whole time.
0:53:56It's always in the cloud.
0:53:58It's very similar things can be done with both of them.
0:54:00I don't know what the interface is to programming.
0:54:02Does it make it look like you just have a bunch of objects
0:54:03and they magically persist?
0:54:05But again, they say all the right words.
0:54:09And it seems like this will be a more reliable, easier
0:54:12to understand, easier to debug way
0:54:14to do some of the same tasks that people are currently doing
0:54:16with Core Data and iCloud.
0:54:18- Exactly.
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0:56:01- So I have a couple questions about iOS
0:56:02and then I think we should talk about Swift before we wrap.
0:56:06Firstly, we don't really know anything
0:56:10about identification, authentication,
0:56:12that sort of thing with regard to CloudKit, right?
0:56:15Because it would be really neat,
0:56:17even if I didn't use barely anything else
0:56:21with relation to iCloud,
0:56:22like say I'm Marco and I'm writing Overcast,
0:56:24it would ostensibly be really great
0:56:26to get the accounts system out of CloudKit,
0:56:31but do everything else myself.
0:56:33Just get a token from CloudKit
0:56:35to identify who this person is,
0:56:37and then everything else I take care of on my own.
0:56:39We don't know that, right?
0:56:40- Couldn't you do that already,
0:56:41if you wanted to, through iCloud?
0:56:42I guess you just sort of make yourself
0:56:44a little vestigial iCloud document container
0:56:46that you never use.
0:56:47- I guess you could.
0:56:48- Well, what you could do is you could just generate
0:56:51like a random key, or you know, generate a random ID
0:56:54and store it in key value storage
0:56:56and then you could read that later.
0:56:58But then, you know, when you base your authentication
0:57:01on iCloud, you get this big benefit of,
0:57:04they're already logged into this thing.
0:57:06But it also comes with a lot of weird little downsides
0:57:08and complexities that a lot of people don't--
0:57:10- If they sign out of iCloud, then you have to like,
0:57:13put their stuff off to the side in case they sign back
0:57:15into it to restore it for them, and yeah.
0:57:17- Right, so there's a number of weirdnesses with that.
0:57:19Now the good thing is, something else
0:57:21that's totally unrelated to this that they announced
0:57:24is the family sharing, which--
0:57:25- Oh, thank God.
0:57:26- Yeah, I think, so family sharing,
0:57:28you can have up to like six people,
0:57:31if you all have the same credit card,
0:57:33which is a good limitation to prevent weird fraud issues,
0:57:36you can have up to six people have basically
0:57:37pooled purchases for all the iTunes media
0:57:41as well as apps and in-app purchases,
0:57:42which is awesome because I think this will
0:57:45dramatically cut down on people who need to keep signing in and out of different Apple
0:57:48IDs because they have one ID that purchases everything that they share with their wife
0:57:52or their kids or whatever. I think this is going to really help that anyway. So that's
0:57:56besides the point.
0:57:57If you use iCloud as your authentication mechanism, you're tied to that. Sometimes that isn't
0:58:03what users expect. So if someone's signing into different iCloud accounts and they launch
0:58:09your podcast app and all of a sudden everything's gone because they signed into a different
0:58:13to download a movie and they forgot about that
0:58:15and they launch your app and your app has no idea
0:58:18who they are or where all the stuff is.
0:58:19- Apple's always been pretty good about giving you
0:58:21a different Apple ID for each of the individual apps.
0:58:24Like I've learned that setting up old devices for my kids
0:58:26and I'm surprised at the number of places
0:58:28I have to go hunt down my Apple ID and remove them
0:58:30and put in a different Apple ID.
0:58:32Oh, I forgot that iMessage is still signed in as me.
0:58:35Oh, I forgot that the app store was signed in as me.
0:58:38They're pretty good about spreading it around
0:58:41but the big thing with the families is
0:58:43I mean, they haven't really finished this job, they've just started this job, but it's
0:58:47acknowledging, I tweeted during the thing, acknowledging the existence of families.
0:58:51It's acknowledging how regular people use their products, that we exist in families,
0:58:55that kids might have their own devices, that they get to hand me their own devices, that
0:58:59we don't want to buy the app multiple times.
0:59:03One of the other acknowledgements is that in general the family has a family collection
0:59:06of photos, whereas individual kids might have individual collection of photos, but like,
0:59:10you don't want to, "Oh, I've got to go on my wife's computer because that's the photo
0:59:12computer that's where all our photos are like they haven't gotten that point yet
0:59:14so then the no I life is an island type of thing but at the very least they
0:59:18acknowledge your kids want to buy stuff you don't want them to be able to sign
0:59:22in so now you get a notification on your device that says so-and-so wants to buy
0:59:26something approve or reject like that's what happens in real life anyway and so
0:59:30they're building into the OS you know electronically which is you know they
0:59:34must all have iOS devices in their family and it's taken this long to
0:59:37create a product that acknowledges how everybody knows everybody's using these
0:59:41products to begin with.
0:59:42- Yup.
0:59:43Yeah, and I mean this is just one of those things,
0:59:44like the amount of crap they unveiled today,
0:59:47it's, you know, like I said two weeks ago or last week
0:59:50that Apple lacked server-side hustle.
0:59:53And-- - Oh, that's a good point.
0:59:55- And I think that's probably still the case in general
0:59:58with their online services, but I think this shows
1:00:00where all the hustle's been spent.
1:00:03- I think you picked an unfortunate word,
1:00:05because all I can think about is the kid who's like
1:00:08running with a football or trying to go somewhere for a pass and doesn't get there in time,
1:00:14but the coach says, "All right, all right, good hustle, good hustle."
1:00:16But it's like, he didn't make it there.
1:00:18But good hustle, son.
1:00:19And sure, yeah, they are showing hustle.
1:00:21I just don't know if they're the kid who wasn't fast enough and the coach just wants to sound
1:00:25encouraging anyway.
1:00:26We want to see them catch the touchdown pass, not just to say, "Good hustle, son."
1:00:32And it seems like server and service side stuff, they are still keeping pretty limited,
1:00:37But I think they're doing, like what we see today,
1:00:40or what we saw today is that they're doing a lot more,
1:00:42like the whole iCloud Dropbox copy thing,
1:00:45I did not expect that at all.
1:00:47Like that was like a line I didn't think
1:00:49they would ever cross with iCloud.
1:00:50And it solves a lot of problems that we've talked about
1:00:52with iCloud, things like the file siloing
1:00:55and document siloing and how the heck you address that.
1:00:58- When they first showed it, the silos are right there.
1:01:00Look, there's a folder called Keynote.
1:01:02That's the Keynote silo.
1:01:03And look, there's a folder called Pages.
1:01:04That's the Pages silo.
1:01:05I mean, the unification of those apps across
1:01:07of the unification of iWork makes
1:01:08them be able to have those silos in both places,
1:01:10because otherwise it wouldn't make any sense.
1:01:11You'd have iOS pages versus whatever, right?
1:01:14The silos are still all there.
1:01:15The whole idea is that if you just
1:01:16want to be siloed like you are now, it's fine.
1:01:18But there's other way you can look at things.
1:01:20And the question is, when I look at that,
1:01:22when I look at iCloud and it sees keynote and pages
1:01:24or whatever, can I make my own folders alongside them?
1:01:26Yes, you can.
1:01:27And like, well, who's sandbox is that in?
1:01:29Is that in the keynote sandbox?
1:01:31Is that in the whatever sandbox?
1:01:32And the answer is, no, it's not in the keynote.
1:01:34Document container is over there.
1:01:36Pages document container over there,
1:01:37but within Pages on iOS, you can hit the little whatever
1:01:40that brings up the iOS equivalent
1:01:41of the open save dialog box,
1:01:43and go to someplace else that's not in your document
1:01:45container and get a document,
1:01:47like the folder that you made called garage sale,
1:01:49that's gonna be your project for all your crap
1:01:50for the garage sale.
1:01:51- Yeah.
1:01:52- And so, like I said, having that cake and eat it too,
1:01:55if you wanna work the old way,
1:01:57it still works 100% the old way.
1:01:59If you wanna work the new way,
1:02:01you can just pretend that old way didn't exist
1:02:02and just make a bunch of folders at the top level
1:02:04and never look in your document container.
1:02:05It's all from the little extension of the sandbox,
1:02:08reaching out into this other world
1:02:09and allowing you to access these files.
1:02:11- Yeah, I should point out,
1:02:12I do not like the look of that quote unquote
1:02:14open save dialogue.
1:02:15I think it looks like--
1:02:16- They never showed ListView,
1:02:17so I don't know what it looks like, ListView.
1:02:18- Fair point.
1:02:19- Yeah, it might be reasonable.
1:02:20- Yeah, the other thing I wanted to talk about
1:02:21really quickly about iOS,
1:02:22and maybe you guys have some other stuff too,
1:02:24but the leaving and muting of group messages is wonderful.
1:02:29- Again, an acknowledgement of how people,
1:02:32is there a larger concentration of people
1:02:34who use iPhones and iOS devices than Apple employees,
1:02:36they must all know what it's like to have the friends
1:02:39with the green bubble so you can't talk about,
1:02:40to not be able to leave the group chats,
1:02:42to have, again, with the messages with the keep button.
1:02:45Acknowledging that you have the wrong default.
1:02:48Like you thought the default would be keep everything
1:02:50and let people individually delete,
1:02:51and it turns out that the right default is delete everything
1:02:53and let people individually keep.
1:02:55- Yeah, and I'm just so excited.
1:02:57I'm excited that you can leave a conversation,
1:02:59although it was never made clear to me
1:03:01that this is SMS and iMessage.
1:03:04Like, maybe this is just iMessage.
1:03:05That's still unclear.
1:03:06Right.
1:03:07Yeah.
1:03:08But not only can you leave a conversation, but you can also mute a conversation.
1:03:11I think they called it a different term, but in effect, you don't get buzzes in your pocket
1:03:17and so on, but nevertheless, you'll still receive the messages.
1:03:21It should be SMS too, because they'll just ignore, like it's a software thing.
1:03:23You'll still be getting the SMSes, they're just not, you know, you could do it all client
1:03:27side essentially.
1:03:28Oh, I completely agree with you, but it was never made clear, and so I don't want to count
1:03:31my chickens before they hatch.
1:03:32But I'm extremely, extremely excited about that because I get on these group messages
1:03:37and it's like one or two people I know and then like ten random phone numbers and of
1:03:41course nobody's courteous enough to just reply to the author individually.
1:03:46And then I'm on these damn conversations that last two days, often at odd hours in the morning,
1:03:50and it's just the most frustrating thing in the world.
1:03:52So I'm really excited about that.
1:03:54Anything else about iOS that you guys have?
1:03:55Well, I think they did everything that we ever wanted for iOS except for—that we talked
1:03:59about previously—except for letting you pick a different default app.
1:04:02They did widgets on the lock screen.
1:04:05They didn't do widgets on the home screen.
1:04:06They did widgets on the lock screen.
1:04:08Being able to share documents between applications
1:04:11for interactive communication, they just didn't do,
1:04:13hey, I want to use Chrome as my default browser.
1:04:15I don't want to use Apple Mail as my default mail.
1:04:17- And that was, I mean, wishing for that
1:04:18has always been a stretch.
1:04:19They might still do it someday, but that's--
1:04:21- I think that is exactly, I think third-party keyboards
1:04:23is even more of a stretch.
1:04:24Like, that is exactly in the ballpark
1:04:26of the things they did.
1:04:27Like, they did things that are as radical
1:04:30as letting you change your default app, I feel like.
1:04:31- Oh yeah, and the entire extension system
1:04:35is just shockingly robust and just changes everything.
1:04:40I mean, it's gonna take us,
1:04:44I was talking to Underscore about this earlier,
1:04:45I think all of a sudden now,
1:04:48for all of iOS's history,
1:04:50for a lot of listeners of this show,
1:04:51certainly for me,
1:04:53people who have been working on iOS apps
1:04:55all this time so far,
1:04:57there has been these entire categories of apps
1:05:00that were impossible or impractical to make on iOS.
1:05:04Entire capabilities that we lacked,
1:05:07that we couldn't do well.
1:05:08Stupid hacks, like for Instapaper,
1:05:10having to make the stupid bookmarklet.
1:05:12Stupid hacks like that.
1:05:14The entire URL scheme thing that we've been hacking around
1:05:17now, so many of these things are totally obsolete now
1:05:21with the new extension system.
1:05:23So not only do we have all these existing things
1:05:26we've been doing that will now be able to be a lot better
1:05:29and a lot more robust, but there's entire classes of apps
1:05:34that have never been possible to make before
1:05:37that are now possible, or entire classes of activities
1:05:40that before you could do, but it was so clunky
1:05:42it would never really take off and would never really be
1:05:44that much of a good product.
1:05:45Now those things can be native and can be good.
1:05:47And it's gonna take, I would say, at least a year
1:05:51for many of us who have been doing this for a while
1:05:56to forget that we can't do these things.
1:05:59It's like, 'cause now we have so many new capabilities
1:06:01that all came at once in addition to this whole new language
1:06:03that we have to learn, which we'll get to.
1:06:04Like, we have all these new things that we can now do.
1:06:06Like, it's gonna take a while for us to finally
1:06:09internalize these things so that we can start realizing,
1:06:11wait a minute, we can do X, Y, and Z.
1:06:13Like, oh man, this would be a great idea for an app
1:06:15or this would be a great enhancement to our existing app.
1:06:18Now we can do this.
1:06:19Like, it's, that list is so long of what you can now do
1:06:22that this is just, it's gonna be ridiculously good for us,
1:06:27I think, long term, and it's gonna take a while
1:06:28to see the full effects.
1:06:29And they did the obvious implementation.
1:06:31Like, I remember when we were talking about, oh,
1:06:32what if they let you do an activity sheet thing where
1:06:34you can have your thing like add to Instapaper, add to Pinterest.
1:06:37And like, well, if they do that, then every dog and his brother
1:06:39is going to have a little stupid icon in the thing.
1:06:41So they'll need some kind of preference for you
1:06:42to turn them on and off.
1:06:43And with the simplicity of iOS, notification center
1:06:47was the first thing that showed they're not
1:06:49afraid to give you a wall of checkboxes or switches in iOS.
1:06:52And so they do that.
1:06:53Like, the obvious implementation is
1:06:54you register that you're able to hand you a rail,
1:06:56you let the user have a gigantic wall of on/off switches
1:06:58to tell which ones they want to see.
1:07:00Done and done.
1:07:01That's what we were all saying.
1:07:02You're like, oh, you can't do that.
1:07:03And it's just like, no, they can.
1:07:05And the great thing about Apple doing it is like,
1:07:07the ecosystem they're creating now
1:07:09is not just like one app vendor manages to do something
1:07:11within their like, oh, my three apps cooperate.
1:07:13All the apps are gonna be able to cooperate.
1:07:15So you are going to be able to reap the benefits
1:07:17or latch onto and enhance some other app
1:07:20because if you can work on the same data
1:07:22and integrate with each other,
1:07:24you don't need third parties to cooperate with each other
1:07:27outside the realm of the store.
1:07:28App developers that never knew each other,
1:07:31the user can now use their apps to work together
1:07:33on a single thing.
1:07:34And that's what it's been like on the Mac always,
1:07:36but now it'll be like that on iOS.
1:07:37- Yeah, it's really impressive.
1:07:38And I feel like we're seeing a whole new,
1:07:41I don't know if progressive is the right word,
1:07:44but a whole new progressive Apple
1:07:45that's willing to do the things
1:07:47that we never thought they would be willing to do.
1:07:50And I'm really excited about it.
1:07:51Now granted, I'm always amped up and really excited
1:07:54and jazzed after the keynote and so on,
1:07:56But I feel more excited today about not only what they've announced, but what we can imagine
1:08:04in the future.
1:08:05Because all of these impenetrable doors that have been triple locked and cement sealed
1:08:10and welded shut, a few of them were blown open today.
1:08:14And so if they're willing to do a new keyboard, gosh knows what they're going to be willing
1:08:17to do in the future.
1:08:18And so I'm really, really excited.
1:08:20It's almost like they came out with a new...
1:08:22Oh wait, they did come out with a new language today, didn't they, Jon?
1:08:26But I think a lot of this is decision changes at Apple,
1:08:31possibly it's leadership changes.
1:08:32But I think what Jon said earlier is very correct,
1:08:34where it's like they were able to do all this stuff
1:08:36because of both hardware advances with now the ability
1:08:39to have more things in memory at once,
1:08:41and also all the security features that they've added.
1:08:45That they've--
1:08:45- They had to build the infrastructure
1:08:47to enable these features.
1:08:49- Like many of these features,
1:08:50now that they're doing them,
1:08:53and the way they're doing them now,
1:08:55many of them have no downside.
1:08:57Like there's no cost to doing this now.
1:08:59There was always a good reason not to before,
1:09:02but once you have the infrastructure
1:09:04and once the hardware is caught up enough
1:09:07to allow a lot of these things,
1:09:09like they didn't give us home screen widgets on Springboard
1:09:12because the home screen's always showing.
1:09:14But when you pull in the notification center,
1:09:16now they can intelligently refresh those
1:09:19only when you pull in notification center.
1:09:21A lot of people never pull in a notification center,
1:09:23so they never have to update them.
1:09:24Like there's all sorts of optimizations they can do,
1:09:27all sorts of just restrictions and limits
1:09:29on where they're choosing to do these things
1:09:31and how they're choosing to do these things,
1:09:33make them possible and make them come with low or no cost
1:09:37overall to the experience.
1:09:37- That's part of Apple's secrecy thing is that,
1:09:40it's obvious now in hindsight how they were laying
1:09:42the groundwork for all these things.
1:09:44They're laying the groundwork by allowing technology
1:09:45to advance, by the hardware getting better,
1:09:47but also building all the APIs, enhancing them
1:09:49so that they're able to deliver this.
1:09:50And you could say, oh, this was the grand plan all along,
1:09:53three years ago when we were complaining about this stuff,
1:09:55it's just Apple couldn't say it was a secret
1:09:56they were doing this.
1:09:57And we don't know whether that's the case or not,
1:09:59but it seems like from the outside
1:10:01that their priorities haven't changed.
1:10:04Every time we've gotten a new feature,
1:10:05it's been like now within the bounds of the priorities
1:10:08we set out for iOS in terms of safety and responsiveness,
1:10:11we are now able to deliver this feature
1:10:13that you've wanted a long time.
1:10:14And it's like, aha, Apple has changed direction.
1:10:17They've simply stuck to their priorities and waited,
1:10:19not just waited in terms of the hardware,
1:10:21but also said, "If we're going to ever do this, let's figure out the steps we would
1:10:25have to take."
1:10:26And over a series of iOS releases, they lay the groundwork slowly, slowly, and then now
1:10:30finally they can come out.
1:10:31And in iOS 8, it seems like a whole bunch of those things came to a head at the same
1:10:35time.
1:10:36Like, finally they had the infrastructure to do all of these things, and they did all
1:10:40of them.
1:10:41Yeah, it's been really impressive.
1:10:43So, we should talk about this new language.
1:10:46Jon, what do you think?
1:10:48I don't know.
1:10:50I feel vindicated in some ways, because if you think about the Copeland 2010 thing, and
1:10:582010 came and went and nothing happened.
1:11:01One was revisited.
1:11:02Was that 2012?
1:11:032010 was when I revisited.
1:11:04Oh, right, right, right, right.
1:11:05Because you would have written the original in like 2003 or something like that.
1:11:092003?
1:11:102005.
1:11:11Or 2005, as you say.
1:11:14Where's Jason when we need him?
1:11:16How many numbers are there?
1:11:17Anyway.
1:11:18John is right.
1:11:19is right. The whole debate, you know, amongst us on the outside of Apple is about like,
1:11:28why do you think they need a new language and runtime? Why can't they just use Objective-C
1:11:31and continue to enhance it? And what Apple came out with was not a continued enhancement
1:11:38of Objective-C, it was a new language. Unequivocally, a new language. It looks different, it's got
1:11:43a different name.
1:11:46The only thing they haven't changed is the API seems to be under the covers, the same
1:11:50API, but the way you use it is different because there are so many language features that essentially
1:11:55convert to a big whole mess of Objective-C code.
1:12:00So they're sort of getting a new API without getting a new API, which is very clever.
1:12:05They're not saying, "Oh, this language is so different, we are going to need all new
1:12:08APIs, all new function names, all new arguments," or whatever.
1:12:11They said, "Here's this compact way to say something that essentially is this big, long
1:12:16block of -- not block, but you know, this big wad of Objective-C code.
1:12:20You don't have to write that big wad anymore.
1:12:22All of that intent is expressed in this thing, and it's not a new API."
1:12:26And that, I think, is very clever.
1:12:28Now, I haven't had time to look at the language itself.
1:12:32It looks a lot like a language written by people who like C and C++ and Objective-C.
1:12:38I'm not necessarily one of those people, but for people, it should be familiar to them.
1:12:42I heard Joel Spolsky say on Twitter that it looked a lot like Go, and his comparison was
1:12:47C# is to Java as Swift is to Go.
1:12:51And again, not having looked at it very long, that seems vaguely apt.
1:12:56But the bottom line is they have a new language.
1:13:00They're committing to it going forward.
1:13:02It builds on everything they've done before.
1:13:04Builds on LLVM, it builds on their whole compiler infrastructure, builds on their IDE.
1:13:08On Arc.
1:13:09Yeah, on Arc.
1:13:10And you know, it is the compromise you talked about, Objective-C without the C, which was
1:13:14actually on a slide.
1:13:15The actual phrase, "it's not Objective-C without the C," I couldn't even friggin'
1:13:17believe it.
1:13:18I was trying to remember who originally came up with that phrase on the web.
1:13:21It wasn't me.
1:13:22But it was in the discussion, like, why don't they just keep shaving the edges off Objective-C?
1:13:25Like, it's Objective-C, but you won't need pointers.
1:13:27Like, Swift doesn't have the friggin' stars.
1:13:30You can mix it with Objective-C code, there are pointers behind the scenes, but you don't
1:13:33have access, you have to dereference them and start doing random crap, and this is their
1:13:37Unsafe code mixed with safe code, but the safe code is so very clearly safe
1:13:41And it's super fast because under the covers it's compiling down to
1:13:45You know LVM intermediary code which gets optimized. I mean you know it's the same. It's calling the same API's
1:13:52Someone was asking when they get the RC for benchmark like look how much faster Swift is at RC for benchmark that objective C
1:13:58How could objective C be so slow?
1:14:01And doing this RC for benchmark
1:14:04What is it about Swift that makes it faster? I mean people would say okay, so fine. So Swift is just as fast good
1:14:09How can how can Swift be faster? I don't know the answer to that having just come out of the keynote, but my guess is that
1:14:13Swift lets you
1:14:16Express what you want to do in a way that doesn't have all the baggage of C and C++
1:14:20And all those other languages because they have to be so cautious about well I can do this optimization
1:14:26But what if the thing that I call actually writes to this memory address exactly and Swift can say I?
1:14:31I tell you that's not going to happen,
1:14:32because they have no way to get at that.
1:14:34There's no way for them to dereference something
1:14:35and go scribble over the section of it.
1:14:37Like, trust me, it's going to be the same.
1:14:40What was that?
1:14:41Anyway.
1:14:42We're back.
1:14:42Trust me, it's going to be safe to do this optimization,
1:14:45because the program has expressed its intent.
1:14:47And we don't have to worry about all these cases in a C and C++
1:14:50compiler that are unsafe, that the compiler cannot make strong
1:14:54guarantees about-- it has to do with the cautious thing.
1:14:57Now, I don't know if that's why the RC4 benchmark is faster,
1:15:00But that's what I've always been talking about,
1:15:02is about what can you do with a new language?
1:15:04It's not just syntactic sugar.
1:15:06It's because you can allow the pro-order
1:15:08to express their intent without having
1:15:10all these details of the implementation of a memory
1:15:12unsafe language that the runtime and compiling system
1:15:14has to worry about.
1:15:15Yeah, I think you're exactly right.
1:15:17The performance gains don't make a lot of sense otherwise.
1:15:20But it has to be about optimizations and all
1:15:24the assumptions that the compiler can make.
1:15:26And optimizing compilers are so advanced these days.
1:15:29And the more information you can give them
1:15:32about what they need to do and what they don't need to do,
1:15:34the better optimized code they can generate.
1:15:36It makes a huge difference.
1:15:37- I think there was a big presentation
1:15:39by someone on the LLVM thing,
1:15:40it might have been Chris Ladd or somebody else,
1:15:41that was going through undefined behavior
1:15:43according to the C specification.
1:15:44C specification says if you do X or Y,
1:15:46it's undefined behavior.
1:15:47And there are so many cases that it comes up
1:15:49and it ties, they're rigging LLVM and the optimizer
1:15:52and the code generator, it ties their hands.
1:15:54It's like, boy, we would love to do this optimization,
1:15:57But according to the C-Spec, it's not safe for us to do it.
1:16:01And so they would just be sitting there just waiting to unleash these optimizations.
1:16:04And with Swift, they can define a language that is not impaired in that way, that doesn't
1:16:08have all these edge cases and say, "Now, finally, we can pull out all this optimization."
1:16:12It is safe to do this, guaranteed.
1:16:14Do it and make your code faster.
1:16:15Yeah, the other thing that was really impressive about Swift, which comes back to what you
1:16:19were saying earlier about constant priorities, is the protections around doing something
1:16:25stupid.
1:16:26being overrunning an array. So if this array is 20 items and you ask for item
1:16:3125, it's gonna catch that and not let you do something either stupid or dangerous.
1:16:35And it's gonna probably fail dramatically, but that's a much better
1:16:39approach than just letting you run amok in memory that really doesn't belong to
1:16:43you. And that's just one example of many different protections they've made in
1:16:47order to prevent something like the Heartbleed book. Yeah, they didn't want to
1:16:51give up anything. So like compile time, static analysis, strong typing, like you
1:16:55So we can catch that, you know, if there was an array out of bounds error, they would catch
1:16:59that at compile time if they could, you know, if it wasn't a runtime value being put in
1:17:02there because they didn't give up any of the typing stuff.
1:17:03Like I saw this tweet that I didn't read it myself, but someone was saying in the Swift
1:17:07book that Apple put out on the iBook store, which you can go get for free right now, it
1:17:10was saying, Swift is designed to be a language that you can use to write everything from
1:17:14operating systems up to applications.
1:17:16Like a single language that it's not like, oh, well, you just use this to make your fancy
1:17:19GUI apps.
1:17:20When you write the OS, you have to do it in C. It seems like Apple is saying, we can be
1:17:24Swift from top to bottom. Everything we make, all the software we make as Apple from the
1:17:28operating system itself all the way up to all of our GUI applications in theory could
1:17:31be written in Swift because that's how it's designed. It's designed to be as efficient
1:17:35as the low-level languages, but even more pleasant to use than Objective-C was. And
1:17:39that is an ambitious goal, and I applaud them for it. I'm not sure they've achieved it
1:17:42yet because I haven't read enough about the language, but I mean, what more can you
1:17:46ask? New language, you know, from top to bottom, fully committed.
1:17:51- Yeah, I mean, it always seems,
1:17:53like this is one of the reasons why
1:17:54I don't learn new languages very often,
1:17:55much to your chagrin.
1:17:57It always seems like a waste of technology
1:18:01and resources and effort to have these languages
1:18:04that have great feature X, Y, and Z,
1:18:08and then oh, but it doesn't run on Linux,
1:18:10or you can't use it to build GUIs,
1:18:12or like there's all these limitations
1:18:14that's like it's not really the fault of the language,
1:18:16it's more of a library issue usually,
1:18:18or an implementation or VM issue or something like that.
1:18:20You know, and it just seems like a waste to have,
1:18:24you know, to become an expert in a language
1:18:26that you then can't use for X, Y, or Z.
1:18:28Like, you know, at least from my point of view
1:18:30of not wanting to learn new languages very often.
1:18:32But, like this is the kind of thing, like looking at this,
1:18:35obviously yes, I'm going to learn this because I think,
1:18:37I think every Objective-C programmer today
1:18:40should start learning Swift as soon as they can
1:18:42because it's-- - Absolutely.
1:18:43- You know, it's not gonna, it's not like Objective-C
1:18:45is going to be deprecated or start, or go away in a year.
1:18:50Look at how long Apple has supported the old C APIs,
1:18:54all the core foundation stuff, C++ compilation
1:18:58and everything, this is gonna be here for,
1:18:59Objective-C's gonna be around for a while.
1:19:01- I mean, but they map to each other,
1:19:02that's the freaky thing about it.
1:19:03Like, they showed the thing where they said,
1:19:05you can look in the Objective-C header
1:19:06and we'll translate it mechanically to the Swift header,
1:19:09because they didn't change the API.
1:19:11Underneath it is like, you can write
1:19:13the equivalent Objective-C code,
1:19:14the Objective-C code that would be unsafe,
1:19:16'cause you could dereference anything and do crazy stuff.
1:19:18The Swift code is safe because what you write doesn't include any of that stuff.
1:19:21That's fairly genius, like saying that we're going to make—I mean, in that respect, it's
1:19:26like Go.
1:19:27This is a low-level language with a high-level syntax.
1:19:30And the other interesting thing to me was that as much as we all bemoan Xcode, they
1:19:35spent enough time to make the Xcode tooling good.
1:19:38Just like you said, when you look at documentation, it will mechanically translate from Objective-C
1:19:44to Swift.
1:19:45they have, what is it, Playground, is that right? Which is basically like not quite
1:19:49a command-line like interactive interpreter. It's better than that and
1:19:53it's GUI based. And so they were showing demos of, you know, rewinding and playing
1:19:59animations and doing things that I would love to be able to do. And
1:20:03this is just Xcode's Swift tooling. There's a bunch of other
1:20:07tooling, I think most of which is ND8, that's also extremely impressive. And they
1:20:13didn't just throw this language out there and say, "Hey, you're probably gonna
1:20:15need to learn this," and, "Oh, you know, we're not really gonna help you. Just
1:20:18there's some documentation, go figure it out." There's the iBook that Jon
1:20:22mentioned. There's this Playground thing within Xcode. There's a whole bunch of
1:20:27documentation on their website. I mean, they're really, they've taken this
1:20:31seriously. And the rumblings I've heard from a few friends is that not
1:20:36everyone at Apple knew about this, but those that did have been working on it
1:20:39for a long time, and I think that's pretty apparent pretty quickly.
1:20:42Yeah, and all the more impressive that it was kept secret all those times.
1:20:45Absolutely.
1:20:46I mean, there were people—from what I've gathered—there were people at Apple that
1:20:48had no freaking clue this was about to happen, which to me is just mind-boggling.
1:20:52I mean, again, that's the genius of the transparency is they didn't need to know, because it's
1:20:56not as if—once you saw them translate that header file, it's like, they could translate
1:21:02your Objective-C source to Swift, mechanically perhaps, if they wanted to.
1:21:06I mean, probably not because you have the C parts that they wouldn't be able to—you
1:21:09I bet they could do a lot of it.
1:21:11So the rest of the organization doesn't need to know, because it's all binary compatible.
1:21:16In the State of the Union thing, which someone just tweeted that you could stream the State
1:21:19of the Union without any kind of password so that it must be public, or they mentioned
1:21:23that...
1:21:24They said it was going to be binary compatible, but not...
1:21:29Not necessarily source compatible, because what they're saying is, "We don't know whether
1:21:32we even have the syntax of this thing nailed down, even though we've been developing it
1:21:35for who knows how long internally, they're reserving the right to change their mind about
1:21:39the syntax before the release of any of the OSs that are built on it during the dev period.
1:21:44And of course, they'll go on Swift 1.0, Swift 2.0, like they've done with Objective-C that
1:21:48extended it like crazy, but Swift is designed, they're saying it was defined in terms of
1:21:51itself, which any Perl 6 fans out there, the five of you, hi guys, will know, you know,
1:21:58Perl 6 is also defined in terms of itself, you know, the language spec was written, you
1:22:03the language itself is written in Perl 6. It doesn't have the mutable syntax of Perl 6, but
1:22:08that whole philosophy that Swift is sort of designed to be self-hosting and that these things
1:22:12that we think that are intrinsic to the language like arrays and collections or whatever are
1:22:15actually not, but rather like it's library-based. They're part of the libraries that build on it. So
1:22:19it's a modern construct of how to build language. Don't just define a syntax and say this is the
1:22:24language forevermore and then have different versions of it. Rather, design a language like
1:22:28Like LLVM, LLVM is a compiler system
1:22:30made as a series of libraries.
1:22:32Swift, made by the same people, surprise,
1:22:34is a language made as a series of libraries,
1:22:36and the libraries will change and be added to over time.
1:22:39And the core language itself is very, very small and tight.
1:22:42- Yeah, and this is also a very wise way to do it
1:22:44in that they didn't replace the frameworks.
1:22:47They didn't, you know, 'cause--
1:22:48- I mean, they couldn't, it's too much work.
1:22:49- Right, and that's the thing.
1:22:50And that's, we were always kinda worried,
1:22:52like, well, they sure do seem to be
1:22:53adding a lot of frameworks, and this is gonna be
1:22:57a big job to ever convert this to a new language.
1:22:59And instead they just designed a language
1:23:00that didn't need that conversion.
1:23:02And that's gonna help us too.
1:23:04It's not gonna take very long for us to learn Swift
1:23:06because we'll learn the syntax in a weekend
1:23:09and we'll get the bits and pieces,
1:23:10like the fringes over time,
1:23:12but we already know the entire library.
1:23:15The libraries have not changed.
1:23:16We know the entire, we know all the frameworks already
1:23:19and that's a huge win.
1:23:21- I mean there's still the win that they're not getting
1:23:23which is like using some of these APIs from Swift
1:23:26may seem silly.
1:23:28In other words, if these APIs are designed
1:23:30in a world with Swift, would these APIs
1:23:31look the way they do?
1:23:33I mean, even stuff like-- I don't
1:23:34know how they're going to handle error parameters,
1:23:36you know, with write back error parameters, stuff like that.
1:23:39I'm sure there's massaging to be done there.
1:23:41So it's the right compromise for them,
1:23:44but it is still a compromise in that if you were designing
1:23:46a new API in a world where Swift was the beginning instead
1:23:49of the end point of language evolution,
1:23:51your API would look different.
1:23:53But that's just not an option for them.
1:23:54And so this compromise, like ARK kind of,
1:23:57is the right compromise for Apple this time.
1:24:00I'm just happy that--
1:24:02I'm not going to say that they saw the light,
1:24:04because I'm not convincing anybody of anything.
1:24:06But I mean, I'm just happy that it happened,
1:24:08because I thought it needed to happen,
1:24:10and I'm excited that it did.
1:24:13And assuming this process has been going on for years,
1:24:16this means I've been having conversations
1:24:18with people from Apple who knew that Swift was happening,
1:24:22and could not tell me.
1:24:24And we would talk about--
1:24:25I can just imagine what they must have been thinking
1:24:27as I'm talking to them and saying,
1:24:28well, look at what you can do with a whole new language
1:24:30instead of just extending Objective C. And they would--
1:24:33yeah, well.
1:24:35They knew.
1:24:36They did it.
1:24:38At some point, they're going to start making
1:24:40APIs that only work in Swift.
1:24:43There's so many APIs in previous transitions,
1:24:45like when going from Carbon to Cocoa--
1:24:47Block-based APIs, right?
1:24:49Exactly.
1:24:49They don't work without blocks.
1:24:51Right.
1:24:51And yeah, there are certain things
1:24:52where they're just not going to,
1:24:54certain APIs, they're probably just not gonna make
1:24:56Objective-C versions anymore.
1:24:58But the amazing thing about these tools
1:25:00and the way they built this thing is that
1:25:02you can opt into Swift, it's just like,
1:25:04oh, you can opt in per compilation unit,
1:25:05which is per source file.
1:25:07And so you can have an app,
1:25:09you don't have, I don't have to convert my entire app
1:25:11to Swift to use any of it.
1:25:13I can convert one file.
1:25:15I can just start writing new modules in Swift
1:25:17and eventually port the whole application slowly over time
1:25:20as I update things.
1:25:22There's so many, the way they're doing this
1:25:24is so immensely practical for the environment
1:25:28that we're actually in today.
1:25:29- And now think of hindsight.
1:25:30Remember how gross the block syntax looks and looked
1:25:32with the carrot and all that crazy stuff?
1:25:34And remember the dot syntax?
1:25:35It was like, I don't know about the dot
1:25:36and the regular thing, some people stuck with a square bracket.
1:25:38In hindsight, you're like,
1:25:40don't worry about the ugly block syntax, guys.
1:25:42In Swift, it'll just be curly braces.
1:25:45Don't worry about the stupid dot syntax, guys.
1:25:47In Swift, it'll all be dots.
1:25:48Like, if you look backwards at the Objective-C enhancements
1:25:51Some of them are awkward and weird or whatever.
1:25:53All of them are just like laying the groundwork
1:25:55to get Swift up to speed.
1:25:56And that's what makes me think Swift must have been
1:25:58a multi-year long process.
1:25:59And it would be poetic if I think back to like,
1:26:02did this project start in 2010?
1:26:03(laughing)
1:26:05- That actually, based on some things we're hearing,
1:26:07it sounds like that might be around when it started.
1:26:10That's certainly in the ballpark.
1:26:12And you think about how long this kind of effort
1:26:13takes anyway.
1:26:14It would have to have been at least,
1:26:16I'm sure they didn't start this in 2013, 2012.
1:26:20probably 10, 11-ish, but this is,
1:26:24I'm so happy with how they're doing this.
1:26:28It's just--
1:26:29- It's extremely pragmatic.
1:26:30- Yes, exactly, it really is.
1:26:32And it's a way to use their strengths.
1:26:38Apple's really good at recognizing
1:26:40when they have something good,
1:26:42and being able to leverage their strengths
1:26:43in new creative ways.
1:26:45The DevTools team especially is just so, so good.
1:26:49The only thing I'm upset about here,
1:26:53besides that I have to learn something new,
1:26:54which I guess is probably a good thing,
1:26:55the only thing I'm upset about is
1:26:58I finally figured out block syntax.
1:26:59- Yeah, I know.
1:27:00- I finally stopped having to go to our
1:27:02effing block syntax friend site.
1:27:03Like I finally stopped having to go there like last month.
1:27:06I finally got it.
1:27:07I can write block as method parameters.
1:27:10I can write it as variables.
1:27:11Like I finally figured out block syntax reliably
1:27:14like this month and now it's all--
1:27:17- Don't feel bad Marco.
1:27:18I know how to do Perl 4 formats.
1:27:20No one knows what that is in this room.
1:27:22The five people out there who do the Perl 6 stuff
1:27:24understand that, and that information
1:27:25became useless as well.
1:27:27- So today, your knowledge of blocks,
1:27:29the syntax of blocks went out the window.
1:27:31Marco is wearing the ATP shirt,
1:27:34and now all the code on the back is basically deprecated.
1:27:37- Yeah, why didn't you write that in Swift?
1:27:39- What's wrong with you?
1:27:41But no, it's been an extremely exciting day.
1:27:44I can't wait to learn more about it,
1:27:45'cause just like John was saying,
1:27:47We've had no time today to look at this.
1:27:49And so at a glance, this all looks really compelling.
1:27:53And I presume that as we look deeper and deeper,
1:27:55it's going to look more and more compelling,
1:27:57but you never know.
1:27:58But I'm so excited to see what the next four days bring
1:28:02and see what we're gonna learn about all of this.
1:28:05I mean, I noticed that in the sessions,
1:28:07there's like beginner level Swift, advanced level Swift,
1:28:10or intermediary and advanced, like all this week.
1:28:13And maybe that's under NDA and if so, my bad.
1:28:15but suffice to say, they're doing multi-tier Swift sessions
1:28:19all in the span of a week.
1:28:20So I don't know who they think is going
1:28:22to intermediate level in the span of like 24 hours.
1:28:24- No, no, I think it's like if you've never seen,
1:28:26like if you're a new developer, period,
1:28:28like they're gonna go through the basics,
1:28:29whereas if you have experience with seven languages,
1:28:31I think you could jump right into the advanced Swift thing
1:28:33and they'd be like, oh, I understand, like, you know.
1:28:36If you don't know what closures are,
1:28:37them just showing you that in the advanced thing,
1:28:39like wait, I don't even know what it is you're talking about
1:28:41let alone how it behaves in, you know,
1:28:43in terms of like, again with all the Swift code,
1:28:46I didn't send it in double underscore weeks or strongs,
1:28:48or you know, like what is the scope of the variables,
1:28:51how are they retaining the Swift, it's like,
1:28:53you don't need to worry about that anymore.
1:28:54I'm hoping you don't need to, I haven't looked people up.
1:28:55- Well, because it does use the Arc model underneath,
1:28:58so like, things like weak references,
1:29:01- Right, but do you need to annotate?
1:29:02- That's still a thing.
1:29:02- Do you need to annotate that anymore
1:29:04is what I'm getting at, or is it built into the language
1:29:06like that there are guarantees,
1:29:07what do we have to notice about that?
1:29:08- Well, there are certain things, like you know,
1:29:09like you can't, within the Arc model,
1:29:11you can't prevent retain cycles in certain scenarios
1:29:14without having the concept of a weak reference.
1:29:16And so, what we've seen so far of Swift
1:29:19is we've seen the curated good stuff that demos well.
1:29:23We haven't seen the ugly stuff that they have to have yet.
1:29:28And it might get less pretty, but the fact is,
1:29:30I'm sure it'll be close enough, it'll be good.
1:29:34- They remove so much noise, even just with type inference,
1:29:36which again, I'm talking about last year,
1:29:38was like, oh, they could add type inference to Objective-C.
1:29:40They kind of did, but that wasn't
1:29:41the next thing on the list.
1:29:42But it's part of the big giant language that
1:29:45incorporates everything you've seen before.
1:29:46And getting rid of the types everywhere,
1:29:48getting rid of-- obviously retain release went away with arc.
1:29:52And I'm hoping the silly annotations
1:29:54needed for the compiler to figure out what to do.
1:29:57Like you said, you probably need something to break cycles.
1:30:00But I don't know what that's going to look like.
1:30:02And it could be that they just have strong guarantees
1:30:04in the language.
1:30:05And it won't allow you to create cycles
1:30:07if you use the structures in this way.
1:30:09if you create them in this way and you do create them,
1:30:11there's no way to break them, so just don't do that.
1:30:13We don't know yet.
1:30:14- I think they're still gonna need it,
1:30:14'cause for certain delegate methods, anyway,
1:30:17I'm sure they'll need it, but, and just--
1:30:20- You know what we learned today is that,
1:30:21I feel like I learned today that Apple is not only floored,
1:30:25but they are standing on the gas.
1:30:27And so many things, like, there are a bunch of things
1:30:31I talked about with regard to layouts,
1:30:32so if you're not doing auto layout, which I'm not,
1:30:35and I need to learn it, if you're not doing auto layout,
1:30:38you gotta get on that train,
1:30:40'cause you're getting left behind.
1:30:41You know, if you're not using dot syntax,
1:30:43you gotta get on that train, you're getting left behind.
1:30:45- Oh, you gotta get on the Swift train,
1:30:46like Margo said, like learn Swift.
1:30:47And we should talk about that section of State of the Union,
1:30:50which is apparently public, about,
1:30:52what was it called?
1:30:54Size, what are they called?
1:30:56- Oh, yeah. - Oh, adaptive UI
1:30:57is their approach. - Yeah, but what are the,
1:30:58but they're like size modes, or size?
1:31:00- Yeah, it's-- - Size class,
1:31:02that's what it is. - I mean, they were basically,
1:31:03they were like screaming with a megaphone of subtlety.
1:31:06We are making a bigger iPhone.
1:31:08Get ready.
1:31:08And also possibly side-by-side apps on the iPad,
1:31:10but we're not sure yet.
1:31:12Get ready.
1:31:13Get ready now.
1:31:13Yeah, start using this stuff, please.
1:31:16And I'm actually curious.
1:31:17I haven't even looked at the APIs.
1:31:18I hope you don't have to use storyboards
1:31:19to get a lot of that.
1:31:20Yeah, I don't think you do.
1:31:21I think that's just their-- like, you could do it all in code.
1:31:23I hope the storyboard is the way to lay it out.
1:31:25And it may be complicated to do in code, but yeah.
1:31:27Like we said on the previous show,
1:31:28it could be that they just don't say anything about these things
1:31:30and just have a bunch of APIs about making your app different
1:31:32sizes.
1:31:33They totally do.
1:31:34there was a long section of that thing about that.
1:31:37- And it was extremely awkward,
1:31:38'cause they were dancing all around the fact
1:31:42that they're basically saying,
1:31:44there are bigger iPhones coming, prepare yourselves.
1:31:47- And even the side-by-side app things,
1:31:48which require exactly the same thing.
1:31:50And their sizes were so vague,
1:31:53it was like, compact vertically, compact horizontally.
1:31:56It was just, forget about resolution.
1:31:59Like, it's all-- - I'm telling you,
1:32:00they're making a square iPhone.
1:32:01'Cause there's a new, like, you can do square--
1:32:02- Yeah, well, that was the iWatch.
1:32:03It was a gigantic square watch.
1:32:05That's it.
1:32:06I mean, this is another example where Android, I think,
1:32:09from the beginning would always have kind of like your UI
1:32:11could be any size because our phones are--
1:32:13we're not going to control the size, so your UI better adapt.
1:32:16So you have like a bag grid type of things
1:32:18where you put items in in constraints.
1:32:19And Apple was just like, the iPhone is here.
1:32:21It's fixed.
1:32:22This fixed pixel size is just deal with it.
1:32:24And they worked over the series of eight releases
1:32:27to slowly creep up on this concept.
1:32:28And what they've come up with is kind of a weird mongrel
1:32:31of half fixed layout, half auto layout, and people
1:32:33in the transition.
1:32:34But during that whole period, they
1:32:36had the right product for the right time.
1:32:37And now is finally the right time
1:32:39for what Android was at from the beginning, which is like,
1:32:41look, you're not going to know what side of your device
1:32:42is trying to make a UI that looks good everywhere.
1:32:44Apple made a UI that looks good in all of its previous devices.
1:32:48And now Apple is trying to show people
1:32:50how to continue to make UIs that look good in any size device,
1:32:54and not quote unquote, "any size."
1:32:56And it's a difference in philosophy.
1:32:58because Android apps, trying to make a UI
1:33:01that scales to any size and shape is really hard,
1:33:04and that's why a lot of Android UIs were weird,
1:33:06especially like the stretched out apps
1:33:07on the Android tablets and everything.
1:33:10Apple never did that.
1:33:10At every step of the way, Apple says,
1:33:12we have a way for you to make awesome looking apps
1:33:14in every possible size thing,
1:33:15and that way keeps changing as the number of sizes change,
1:33:17and this is the newest way.
1:33:19And it is the most complicated way,
1:33:20but still also the most capable.
1:33:22- But I think this way is also probably
1:33:23like the end game of that path,
1:33:25because first it was, the Spring since Ruts,
1:33:28just like a very, very basic model of scalable windows
1:33:31and views and everything.
1:33:32Then you have auto layout which is much more advanced
1:33:35but the main limitation with auto layout is like,
1:33:37you know, without being all crazy with dynamic checks
1:33:40and everything, you basically were applying
1:33:42the same constraints, the same layout to a view
1:33:45regardless of what size it was.
1:33:46And now you have more of a concept of like
1:33:48responsive web design which is like,
1:33:50all right, for this size class,
1:33:54you're gonna use this set of constraints.
1:33:55For this size class, you're gonna adjust them in this way
1:33:57you can use this entirely different set of constraints.
1:33:59That I think is like, it's the end of that road
1:34:03and they can make it better,
1:34:04but I think that's like the kind of system
1:34:08that they'll pretty much need for the next 15 years.
1:34:11- Because now all they have to do is add size classes.
1:34:13- Right, exactly. - I mean the size classes
1:34:14in the beginning are stupid, it's like compact,
1:34:16what does that even mean?
1:34:17But they use the same constant values for the enums
1:34:20or whatever the hell they are
1:34:21and just keep adding size classes
1:34:22and then it's like, well now we have the Apple
1:34:24that works on your wall size display
1:34:26with the new Apple wallpaper that you paint on in 2075,
1:34:29and then it just has a different size class.
1:34:31- Yeah, why not?
1:34:31So, we should probably wrap, but what do you think, Marco?
1:34:35Thumbs up, thumbs down, are you excited, are you happy,
1:34:38are you disappointed, what do you think?
1:34:40- I'm extremely happy and excited.
1:34:42I'm a little afraid of my future workload,
1:34:45but again, most of the things they've added,
1:34:50I was afraid going into this,
1:34:51what if iOS 8 adds something ridiculous that I must have
1:34:55and then I have to then delay my app until eight ships.
1:34:58And I don't, assuming that you can get the widgets types
1:35:02and all the embed type stuff,
1:35:04if you can get that conditionally compiled,
1:35:07the way you've been able to do it with previous versions,
1:35:08like if I can ship an app with the SDK when it ships,
1:35:13that I can have all these things
1:35:15but still be compatible with seven, then that's fine.
1:35:19I can still ship the app this summer or sometime.
1:35:21I don't have to wait until October or whenever.
1:35:24I do have a lot more work to do now
1:35:26with getting all this stuff supported
1:35:29by the time it ships, but I'm not like, you know,
1:35:33freaked out about having to massively change my plans.
1:35:37And the new things that they gave us are so good.
1:35:40I mean, they gave us so much of what we both wanted
1:35:45and never thought we'd get that it's,
1:35:48I'm just so excited to get it.
1:35:50I mean, and this week, we're gonna be here
1:35:53of the next four days and learn about some of these things
1:35:56in sessions, but we're not gonna get a full appreciation
1:35:58for it until we go home and start actually using
1:36:01these things, and that's gonna happen over the span
1:36:03of months and years, and over months and years,
1:36:06we're all going to appreciate the scale
1:36:09of what we got today.
1:36:11Right now, it's still very new, and it's still gonna take
1:36:14a lot of thought and experience with it
1:36:16before we realize the full effects.
1:36:18- Are you gonna do the size class stuff
1:36:19so you're ready for the bigger iPhone?
1:36:22I will probably do that once I make an iPad interface.
1:36:27That'll probably be part of that work.
1:36:28I haven't done that yet.
1:36:29I'm not gonna launch as far as I know with an iPad version.
1:36:32So that'll probably come later fall or winter or whatever.
1:36:36- All right, so John, how do you feel?
1:36:38- I'm kind of overwhelmed by the amount of stuff
1:36:40that they've put out there.
1:36:41I'm not sure, ostensibly all that I care about
1:36:45in these announcements is the OS X stuff
1:36:46and I'm thinking about my review
1:36:48and I still don't have that OS pinned down.
1:36:50I still haven't even used it.
1:36:51I don't really know what to make of that.
1:36:53People think, oh, this is going to be a big review.
1:36:55But my initial impression is that it's not
1:36:57going to be that big.
1:36:57It's going to be small.
1:36:58But I may be misled by the things that are OS 10--
1:37:02that are relevant to OS 10 that were presented
1:37:04in the other parts of the keynote.
1:37:05So I don't know yet.
1:37:07But Yosemite, it's interesting.
1:37:11It's strange.
1:37:12The Mac was due for a visual refresh.
1:37:14I'm not sure if I like it or not yet.
1:37:17I'll have to spend some time with it and see.
1:37:19But all the other stuff--
1:37:20I mean, I'm excited as a user about the iOS 8 stuff.
1:37:22I'm excited to use all the apps that people
1:37:24will make on iOS 8 to take advantage of these features.
1:37:28Like really, this is--
1:37:30iOS is time to shine.
1:37:31It's finally coming into its own.
1:37:32And that's what I'm excited about from a user perspective.
1:37:34And of course, the language stuff
1:37:35from an academic perspective seems like just-- yeah.
1:37:38I mean, I will--
1:37:40the never-ending nitpicking of Swift
1:37:41itself will begin once I learn what the heck I can get out
1:37:43right now.
1:37:44But bottom line is, like, they did it.
1:37:46They, you know, they've got a new language.
1:37:48and it may not have been the way I wanted it
1:37:52or all the things that I wanted out of a new language,
1:37:55but just merely the acknowledgement
1:37:57that it's not objectivity forever, it just feels good.
1:38:00- Yeah, now like I said, I'm just so pleased
1:38:02to see that Apple is really moving
1:38:04and they're moving quick.
1:38:05And sitting here now, I have no reason to doubt
1:38:08that any of this is gonna work well.
1:38:09Ask me about this in three or four months
1:38:11when iOS 8 comes out and all this iCloud stuff
1:38:14actually happens and maybe nothing works
1:38:16and then I regret being excited about how quick
1:38:19Apple's moving, but sitting here now,
1:38:20it's really encouraging and I'm really excited
1:38:24to play with all of this stuff.
1:38:25And it should be really awesome.
1:38:27We'll see what happens.
1:38:28- Yeah, I really can't wait.
1:38:30They're clearly firing on all cylinders.
1:38:33And we didn't even mention the lack of hardware updates today
1:38:37because the simple fact is it just didn't matter.
1:38:39They gave us so much on the software and dev tools end,
1:38:43which is appropriate for a developer conference,
1:38:45They gave us so much there that we're content for a while.
1:38:49I can learn Swift on my old crappy monitor.
1:38:52(laughing)
1:38:54They've made me busy enough that I can temporarily forget
1:38:57for maybe the next couple of months,
1:38:59I can forget that we don't have
1:39:00retina thermal screens yet.
1:39:01And thank goodness they didn't release a TV and a watch
1:39:06for us to also develop for this summer.
1:39:08You know, come on.
1:39:09- I mean, yeah, no new category but nobody cares.
1:39:11But the thing is, at WWDC, the hardware announcements,
1:39:13as much as I love them, are a distraction
1:39:15from everything else.
1:39:16Because for the rest of the week at the conference,
1:39:19they don't talk about the hardware.
1:39:20Like, it's all about software.
1:39:21This is a developer's conference,
1:39:23and we love it when there's hardware,
1:39:24and it's exciting, and you see them in the little glass too,
1:39:25but then they go away, and for the rest of the week,
1:39:27people are not talking about,
1:39:29I mean, maybe if they have retina screens,
1:39:31that's a developer-facing feature,
1:39:32but there's so much developer-facing stuff.
1:39:34It's like, this whole keynote was filled with stuff
1:39:36that the rest of the week is gonna be filled with.
1:39:39- Yeah, and there was enough consumer stuff in there too
1:39:43that it wasn't like a PR disappointment for Apple today.
1:39:47I mean, I'm sure some site analyst is saying
1:39:51that Apple's doomed 'cause they didn't release
1:39:53an iUnicorn or whatever, but the fact is,
1:39:55I think most of the sensible places
1:39:58that are usually sensible about these things
1:40:00will see the value here for everyone,
1:40:02consumers and developers, and this is just,
1:40:04this is like, this is just showing
1:40:06that Apple does have hustle, like the real hustle.
1:40:08They do have massive engineering resources
1:40:12that they're not applying to things like street view cars
1:40:16and everything else, but they are applying
1:40:19to different problems that we didn't get transit directions
1:40:24and maps and everything, and that stuff can come in time.
1:40:27I'm not trying to criticize Google for,
1:40:30'cause Google has engineering resources to spare,
1:40:34and it shows with their weird side projects,
1:40:36but their core stuff is still really good.
1:40:38this is showing that Apple can not only still compete
1:40:42on core stuff, just a different set of it,
1:40:45not only can they still compete,
1:40:46but they can still compete really well,
1:40:48like really, really competitively,
1:40:50and they're raising the bar in so many areas
1:40:53that other companies and platforms aren't or lag behind in.
1:40:57And so Apple, I think, is fine.
1:41:01They're doing great.
1:41:01- This is an end of a lull, I feel like.
1:41:03It's like there was a lull where we were making
1:41:06a lot of demands, but we didn't even talk about
1:41:07the Appstar changes, but we were making a lot of demands and people wanted things and
1:41:12Apple wasn't releasing it.
1:41:13And it's almost like a whole bunch of stuff all came out of the oven at once.
1:41:17We don't know how long any of those things were baking in there, but the bottom line
1:41:20is they opened the oven doors and 50 cakes spilled out.
1:41:23They're all done.
1:41:24They're all ready now.
1:41:26And from the outside, it would be like, "Well, they must have heard what we complained about
1:41:30since iOS 7 and done all this stuff."
1:41:33So much of the stuff in this keynote must have taken more than a year.
1:41:36They just all came due at the same time.
1:41:38And so, again, we haven't even gotten to a new category.
1:41:41TV forget about that stuff.
1:41:43This is a lot of like their sort of quiet period of just doing small incremental things.
1:41:48Arguably it ended with iOS 7 making the big transition, but like, man, a lot of stuff
1:41:53came out today.
1:41:54A lot of big things that we wanted for a long time.
1:41:57Yeah, it was really awesome, and I'm so stoked for the rest of the week.
1:42:01So thank you so much to Jason Snell and the people at Macworld for letting us steal his
1:42:05studio for a while. It's extremely kind of you, so thank you. And we have some sponsors
1:42:10to thank as well.
1:42:11And thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week, Warby Parker, Igloo, and Squarespace.
1:42:17And we'll see you next week.
1:42:19[music]
1:42:20Now the show is over, they didn't even mean to begin, 'cause it was accidental. Accidental.
1:42:29It was accidental.
1:42:31John didn't do any research.
1:42:34Margo and Casey wouldn't let him.
1:42:37Cause it was accidental.
1:42:39It was accidental.
1:42:42And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm.
1:42:47And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at
1:42:53♪ C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S ♪
1:42:56♪ So that's Casey Liss ♪
1:42:58♪ M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M ♪
1:43:01♪ N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N ♪
1:43:04♪ S-I-R-A-C ♪
1:43:06♪ U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A ♪
1:43:08♪ It's accidental, accidental ♪
1:43:12♪ They didn't mean to ♪
1:43:14♪ Accidental, accidental ♪
1:43:17♪ Tech podcast so long ♪
1:43:20- Man, we got a lot to talk about, but yeah,
1:43:22We will see you next week.
1:43:24- Thanks guys.
1:43:25- Or tomorrow on a different podcast, but whatever.
1:43:27(laughing)
1:43:29- There's that too.
1:43:30[BLANK_AUDIO]