0:00:00(upbeat music)
0:00:02From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 437.
0:00:13Today's show is brought to you by Squarespace,
0:00:15CleanMyMac X, and Trade.
0:00:18My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snow.
0:00:20Hi, Jason Snow.
0:00:21- Hi, Jon Hurley.
0:00:23Aren't all my co-hosts named Jon now?
0:00:25- I mean, if that's what you're looking for,
0:00:27if you need that, you can do that.
0:00:28No, I think we need to revert to normalcy now.
0:00:31It's good to have you back.
0:00:32- Good to be back.
0:00:33And I have a #snowtalk question.
0:00:35It comes from Brantz.
0:00:36This was such a specific question
0:00:39that I wanted to ask it in case there was some kind of reason
0:00:42that Brantz asked this that maybe I'm not aware of.
0:00:45Brantz wants to know,
0:00:46Jason, do you have a second refrigerator in your garage?
0:00:49- It is a strange, did I, you know, Myke,
0:00:55you know more than anyone.
0:00:56We talk on podcasts a lot.
0:00:58And you don't always remember what stories you've told, what things you've disclosed.
0:01:04So I'm gonna just, I don't know why Brance is asking this.
0:01:09The answer is no.
0:01:13I did.
0:01:17So Jamie took a friend's refrigerator, a little tiny mini refrigerator, to college her freshman
0:01:28year and then her sophomore year she was in an apartment didn't need it so she
0:01:33brought it back and it sat in our garage and at some point I plugged it in and I
0:01:38used it as like the I tried to use it as like an auxiliary like soda and beer
0:01:44storage thing because our you know to fit more stuff in the fridge so you're
0:01:50like oh no we're out of beer in the fridge it's like aha there's backup beer
0:01:53right or the backup soda great I did that for a little while but it turns out
0:01:58that I didn't use it consistently and it was just sitting there, you know, wasting power.
0:02:02So eventually I decommissioned it. And then now Julian is in the dorm and he has that
0:02:09refrigerator so it is it has moved on to the next child. And so there's probably who knows
0:02:15what dorm stuff is in there now, but that means it's not here and when he stops using
0:02:22it I suspect we will give it away and not bring it back. Yeah, fill up my already very
0:02:27crowded garage full of garbage. I feel like at that point you would just get a new small
0:02:33fridge right then like keep moving this fridge hundreds of miles. Yeah probably and it seems
0:02:40and it's just unnecessary because I can walk out my door to the refrigerator I can like
0:02:46literally see the refrigerator from here because I'm podcasting with the door open today. It's
0:02:52- Ooh.
0:02:53- I know, it's risky, risky move.
0:02:56And the, yeah, so, and that refrigerator is great.
0:03:01And why would I not use it?
0:03:04And I can just get up and go there.
0:03:05It might've been different if it was far away.
0:03:08I have some friends who work in a detached space
0:03:12and they have to go inside and it's like, well, okay,
0:03:14maybe I could see having a little refrigerator
0:03:17like back when this, I didn't have a door into my house.
0:03:20So I would have to go outside and unlock my front door
0:03:22and go into my house in order to get anything,
0:03:25but that's just not the case now.
0:03:26So it just seems like a waste of space and energy.
0:03:31So we don't.
0:03:31- If you would like to send in a question of your own,
0:03:35just send out a tweet with the hashtag Snow Talk.
0:03:37Use question mark Snow Talk in the Relay FM members Discord
0:03:40and maybe you can get a very specific answer
0:03:43of the layout of it.
0:03:44Do you think Brantz is planning a heist?
0:03:47I worry that Brant's, like the calls coming from inside the house a little bit.
0:03:54I'm also concerned that Brant's might need a refrigerator.
0:03:58Maybe Brant's is a refrigerator.
0:04:00Or a refrigerator salesman.
0:04:03Have you heard of the good news about refrigerators in your garage?
0:04:06I don't know what Brant's is up to here, but that's the answer is that there was a, it
0:04:11was, it was, it was Jamie's friend Bastian.
0:04:14Hi Bastian.
0:04:15He doesn't listen.
0:04:16Although I think he has.
0:04:18And he let Jamie have it and then it sat here for a couple of years and now Julian's got
0:04:24it.
0:04:25And I don't think it's ever coming back because I don't want to haul it back here, quite frankly.
0:04:29So yeah, that's where we are with the mystery of the legend of the second refrigerator.
0:04:34So I'm back now.
0:04:38I very much enjoyed the last couple of episodes with the Johns.
0:04:43Do you have an out of body experience when you're listening to Upgrade and you're not
0:04:45Well, I mean, you also were on it. You introduced it and read some ads.
0:04:49That was weird to me when I was listening back. I will say that.
0:04:52But I did like the idea. That was your idea that I would just do a little intro.
0:04:56Introduce the show.
0:04:58Which I was thinking two things. Maybe it's fun for you, because it's like, you know,
0:05:02it makes you feel like a letterman type, right? Someone's introducing.
0:05:05But then also I thought weird for the guests, because I guess you started the recording
0:05:09of each episode with "Thank you, Myke."
0:05:11And they're like, "Well, he's not here."
0:05:13Yeah.
0:05:14Yeah, I think they rolled with it. I think they know showbiz. It's post-production, we're
0:05:21gonna fix that in post. But yeah, it was a fun thing. I feel like it's maybe a little
0:05:25less jarring to have it be like, you know, you with the From Relay FM and all of that.
0:05:31I also got some feedback about they were dis- people were disconcerted that it wasn't my
0:05:34weird messed up version of the theme song fade-outs and all of that. And I pointed out
0:05:41that now that our friend Jim Metzendorf edits the podcast, he just does it the mic way every
0:05:45time. Jim does it the correct way. Jim uses the right music. You know, I was thinking,
0:05:50I was like, is Jason us? I could have gone behind the scenes and like your connected
0:05:54hosts I could have betrayed you and demanded that Jim do a different intro, but I didn't
0:06:01even think of it quite honestly. I was just more concerned in recording the episodes and
0:06:06getting them out. And we did those live at our usual recording time and streamed them
0:06:10live on relay, which was also not a thing.
0:06:12Back when John Siracusa had a job,
0:06:14I had to record those episodes on like Sunday afternoon.
0:06:17So it was kind of nice to do it at the usual time.
0:06:20And I think I had to get John Gruber up early, you know,
0:06:23'cause he had to make it by noon Eastern.
0:06:26- But yeah, I really loved the episodes.
0:06:28Thank you to the Johns for filling in on my behalf.
0:06:31- Yeah, that was fun.
0:06:32- It was really good.
0:06:33- Always nice to have a change of pace
0:06:34and get those guys talking about stuff
0:06:37they don't necessarily talk about on their other podcasts.
0:06:39- Yeah, it was good.
0:06:40How was your trip?
0:06:42- Oh, my trip was wonderful.
0:06:44I had a great time, very relaxing, very fun.
0:06:48It ended up being exactly the trip
0:06:51that I was hoping for, really.
0:06:53So I've come back feeling refreshed.
0:06:55I've drawn a line in the sand
0:06:58for all of the horrors of buying the home,
0:07:00which is what I was, right?
0:07:02So it's like, okay, all of that happened.
0:07:04That's all in the past now.
0:07:06Vacation was the barrier to now coming back
0:07:08and continuing forward.
0:07:09- That's good, you know, I had that moment,
0:07:11I was loading a couple of dishes in the dishwasher yesterday
0:07:14and I thought to myself, you know, at some point
0:07:16I finally did let go of the fact that I got extremely upset
0:07:21by the act of purchasing this dishwasher
0:07:25and I'm over it now and it feels good to put it in the past
0:07:28and just be done with it.
0:07:29- I believe that the dishwasher story
0:07:31was an upgrade plus story.
0:07:33- I think so, I got very angry,
0:07:35they tried to deliver it five times.
0:07:36Anyway, now it's just a dishwasher, I don't think about it.
0:07:39If sometimes you want to hear Jason get mad about dishwashers,
0:07:44you should sign up for UpgradePlus. Go to getupgradeplus.com.
0:07:47Oh boy.
0:07:48It's just $5 a month or $50 a year.
0:07:50But until December 17th, this is the last time we're going to be able to tell you this.
0:07:55You can get 20% off a plan if you sign up for a year.
0:07:58So an annual plan, you'll get 20% off the first year.
0:08:00So you go to giverelay.com where you can learn more.
0:08:03But if you just use the code 2023holidays at checkout,
0:08:07you will get 20% off that first year.
0:08:10And that's, so you can go to getupgradeplus.com
0:08:12to sign up for this show.
0:08:13I'm gonna appreciate it.
0:08:14We're working on some things for next year,
0:08:16some content stuff that we're both pretty excited about.
0:08:19We enjoy Upgrade Plus and we think that you will too.
0:08:22So talking about content, just as a reminder to people,
0:08:26the voting for the Upgradies,
0:08:28the ninth annual Upgradies has now closed.
0:08:31And I tabulated the whole thing today, Jason.
0:08:33I got a chair and it's ready.
0:08:36And I will say that there is some interesting results
0:08:40from the upgrade-ians from the nominations,
0:08:44and it helped me kind of finalize some of mine.
0:08:48The ninth annual upgrade-ies will be released
0:08:50on December 26th, so it's gonna be a little boxing day
0:08:53present for all of you, from us.
0:08:55- That's right, and we're pre-recording that,
0:08:57so send that over. (laughs)
0:09:00- Then you won't. - Send over that information.
0:09:02I gotta spend some time this week thinking about.
0:09:05I'll have it in our document tomorrow.
0:09:07I didn't want to put in a document today
0:09:09because it's not today's episode, you know?
0:09:11- Also, and I know this is a little behind the scenes,
0:09:14but I think we need to tell people,
0:09:17we are moving house in terms of making a new Google Doc
0:09:21for the show because we broke Google Docs.
0:09:24- Yes.
0:09:25- On the iPad at least.
0:09:27- No, it's on the iPhone too.
0:09:28- Oh, on the iPhone, sure.
0:09:29- We've been using the same Google Doc
0:09:31for many, many, many, many years.
0:09:33We just remove what's in the document each week
0:09:35and just redo it.
0:09:36And the Google Docs app now on my phone
0:09:41will crash every single time I open the document.
0:09:44So I don't know if you've tried this, Jason.
0:09:47Do you even have the Google Docs app on your phone?
0:09:50- No.
0:09:51- It's not a surprise to me, I think.
0:09:53- No, not interested.
0:09:55- But it is a instant crash for me.
0:09:57- Yeah, so we're gonna move and that'll be like,
0:10:02I guess the, well, maybe the upgrade is will be
0:10:05in its own document too, who knows,
0:10:06but we're gonna, it's a good time.
0:10:08We're refreshing here for 2023, getting it ready.
0:10:13But all my little shortcuts where I have to like
0:10:16press buttons or launch things or use a launch bar shortcut
0:10:19or all that to get to the upgrade document,
0:10:21you're gonna have to change all of those.
0:10:22- All gonna have to change.
0:10:24I have some of those too, it's all gonna change.
0:10:26Just notice friend of the show, Zach Knox appeared
0:10:29in the document real quick.
0:10:30I don't know if you saw that.
0:10:31I saw you, Zach.
0:10:32- I didn't.
0:10:33Well, the most disturbing thing is that
0:10:36John Syracuse is apparently still in the document,
0:10:38having left, guess what, everybody?
0:10:41He left a tab open.
0:10:43- This is freaking me out.
0:10:45John Syracuse has been in our document all day.
0:10:48And also, so typically, if you are,
0:10:53like if you have the document open,
0:10:55but you're not looking at it, it grays you out, right?
0:10:59But if you're active in the document,
0:11:01you see a little color around the icon.
0:11:05And John, it looks like John has been active
0:11:09in the document all day, which has been very-
0:11:12- His cursor is resting right next to the red circle
0:11:16that says start recording when we start streaming.
0:11:18His cursor rests there.
0:11:19Character number one, the beginning of the document.
0:11:22But he could flip in there and just like start typing
0:11:25or delete our files or whatever every time if he wanted to.
0:11:30So people may not know this or people may have forgotten this,
0:11:34but I used to edit "Reconcilable Differences."
0:11:38Way back in the beginning, I was the official editor
0:11:40of the show.
0:11:41I don't remember how many I did, but it was a lot
0:11:44before it moved to Jim Mersendorf, who is now
0:11:47the editor of this show, too.
0:11:49And so I had access to--
0:11:51I think still have access to-- the "Reconcilable Differences"
0:11:53document.
0:11:55And in that document, at the very top--
0:11:57they've spoken about this on the show before.
0:11:58they have the official cursor resting space, right?
0:12:01- Yes.
0:12:01- Where Jon wants people to put their cursors.
0:12:03Now, I used to purposely put mine lower.
0:12:07I used to just put it below.
0:12:10It just felt like fun for me.
0:12:11I never mentioned it, he never mentioned it to me,
0:12:13but I used to put it there.
0:12:14Oh, by the way, Jon Siracusa has now left
0:12:17the document, everyone.
0:12:18Jon Siracusa has now left.
0:12:20I don't know if somebody has alerted him.
0:12:22- Did we scare him out?
0:12:23- I think finally we've gotten rid of him.
0:12:26There's an important update, John has left the document.
0:12:30- Well, I just removed access to John.
0:12:32He's left his access to the document.
0:12:33- Oh, (laughs)
0:12:34that'll teach him.
0:12:35That'll teach him.
0:12:36Close your tab, John.
0:12:38See, now he's gonna get a tab one day
0:12:40and it's gonna be like, you're not allowed to be here
0:12:43and he's not gonna know what it was.
0:12:44- I've removed Stephen Hackett from the document too.
0:12:46- Get that guy out of here.
0:12:48- This is a great moment when we're about
0:12:50to leave the document so it doesn't matter.
0:12:52And it's like, get out everybody, get out.
0:12:53We're tearing this building down.
0:12:55It's unsafe, get out now.
0:12:57- It's unsafe, you gotta leave Zach in here though
0:12:58because he might need things to know.
0:13:00- Yeah, I know.
0:13:01- So let's actually get into some real news
0:13:06and conversation.
0:13:07We were talking about a bunch before my break
0:13:09and also I think you were talking to John Gruber about this.
0:13:12Apple's manufacturing diversification.
0:13:15Looking at like, we've spoken about this before,
0:13:19there's millions of iPhones that have been wanted
0:13:21to be made but can't be made and it's going to impact Apple.
0:13:25And the question is, what are they going to do going forward about this?
0:13:30Like, is this going to change Apple's commitment to China?
0:13:33You know, is this a good excuse for Apple to change its commitment to China?
0:13:38Well, a few things have happened.
0:13:40One, Tim Cook appeared at the tooling in ceremony for the new TSMC plant in Arizona
0:13:47and spoke along with President Joe Biden about how Apple Silicon
0:13:52chips will be made in the TSMC chip in Arizona in the coming years. What chips that will
0:13:58be, we don't know. When they will actually be used in products, we don't know. But, you
0:14:03know what this reminded me of? It reminded me a little bit of when he stood side by side
0:14:09with Donald Trump and let Donald Trump say that he made the Mac Pro happen.
0:14:14- Uh huh. Oh, it's, well, it's exactly the same, right? It's like, well, the president
0:14:18is here and there are government somethings involved and isn't it great that we're here
0:14:24in the USA and this is all part of the politics of being the CEO of Apple, right? Of like,
0:14:33you're trying to deal with a lot of different powerful governments and government agencies
0:14:40and you know, and trying to navigate all of that and so this is an example of that that
0:14:46Apple is, you know, because Apple definitely gets that pressure from a lot of people in
0:14:51the US about like, oh, but they make everything in China and it's an American company and
0:14:55how can they abandon manufacturing? We know the history there and it's a lot more complicated
0:15:00than that. And then you throw in the whole issue of diversification away from not just
0:15:06China, but also feeling like all the high-end chips made in the world are made in Taiwan.
0:15:13And that's a one, you know,
0:15:15that's potentially dangerous too.
0:15:16It's another all your eggs in one basket kind of situation.
0:15:20So, but yeah, it sounds like this, you know,
0:15:22Apple's only gonna get a third of the output
0:15:24from this factory and it's unclear what process.
0:15:27It sounds like they're gonna,
0:15:28they originally said five nanometer,
0:15:29but then it's gonna be four nanometer.
0:15:31But like, by the time this factory comes online,
0:15:35it's probably not gonna be making anything remotely
0:15:37like the cutting edge designs that Apple uses
0:15:39for its most important products.
0:15:41So it's probably going to be making, you know,
0:15:45legacy nodes, it's gonna be that kind of stuff, right?
0:15:47It's gonna be older, the SE phone and older designs
0:15:52that are still around and Apple TV chips
0:15:55and stuff like that, yeah.
0:15:57- But that's still something
0:16:00and it's the start of something, right, potentially.
0:16:03Moving on from that, to kind of talk about some
0:16:07a little more, the Wall Street Journal is reporting
0:16:09Apple is accelerating more plans to move manufacturing out of China and they're targeting India and
0:16:15Vietnam.
0:16:17And the way that I read in this article, and you quote with it, it was a little complicated
0:16:23to tease out what they were trying to say, but it seems like they're also looking to
0:16:27move to manufacturing companies that are not Foxconn as well, even if Foxconn has a presence
0:16:34in other places.
0:16:37Was that your reading of this too?
0:16:39- I don't know, I mean, they mentioned Foxconn.
0:16:42One of the interesting things about Foxconn
0:16:43is it's a Taiwanese company,
0:16:45but it does a lot of work in China
0:16:48and has close ties to China as well.
0:16:50Yes, it seems like what Apple is really trying to do
0:16:55is diversify where it can.
0:16:58It sounds like in some cases,
0:17:00Foxconn is the vehicle for diversification, right?
0:17:02Like can we, Foxconn has this factory that we use in China,
0:17:07let's get Foxconn to be the ones to push into Vietnam and India.
0:17:12Yeah, it's interesting and complicated.
0:17:16Because this is the line I struggled with. It said like,
0:17:19and looking to reduce dependence on Taiwanese assemblers led by Foxconn
0:17:24technology group.
0:17:25Yeah. Well, there you go.
0:17:27So like I read that as less reliance on Foxconn,
0:17:31which I also think is smart, right? I think we spoke about that before.
0:17:34I remember seeing like, oh, Foxconn are gonna open a factory in another country
0:17:39and Apple's gonna use that.
0:17:41It's like, that's great, but it's still not fully diversified, right?
0:17:45Like, you're making them somewhere else, but you're not protecting against government interventions
0:17:51over certain companies and stuff like that.
0:17:53So full diversification is gonna mean way more.
0:17:57Like, and Apple's very diversified in its, I think we spoke about this in the past, right,
0:18:01about where it's getting the parts from.
0:18:04The parts for their devices come from all over the place.
0:18:08The issue that they seem to be having
0:18:10is where they're assembled.
0:18:11The assembly is the problem,
0:18:13because this stuff is so difficult to do
0:18:16and seems to need so much human intervention,
0:18:19way more it seems than I would expect
0:18:21before I started learning more about this,
0:18:23like how much is needed
0:18:24for there to actually be humans in the process,
0:18:27that they need to be able to have these large facilities
0:18:30that are assembling the products
0:18:31or overseeing the assembly of the product.
0:18:34And it seems like at the moment
0:18:36they're really just using Foxconn for that.
0:18:37And that's not, it's just not smart on paper.
0:18:41And it's kind of strange to me that like,
0:18:45how long they have let it go this way,
0:18:48because this is obviously a problem.
0:18:50- Well, they're also using Pegatron, right?
0:18:55Which is another Taiwanese company,
0:18:58but they're using Pegatron and the iPhone 14 in India.
0:19:01So there's that.
0:19:03Like this is all, yeah, you know, this is a process,
0:19:07this is the thing is it's a very complicated, expensive,
0:19:09slow process that is now proceeding.
0:19:13So that's, you know, that's really what's going on here
0:19:16is they are very slowly trying to push,
0:19:19'cause I think, yeah, I think they've recognized
0:19:22that all of these, look, it's a part of Apple's philosophy
0:19:26that they ignored for a long time
0:19:27because it was so expedient for them, convenient to do so,
0:19:31of saying we need to control all the things,
0:19:34we need to not be reliant on a single anything
0:19:37for something that's key to us.
0:19:38And yet, in terms of production, which is certainly key,
0:19:42Apple ended up in one company with,
0:19:45sometimes in one region and sometimes with one company
0:19:48that was managing the factories for them.
0:19:50And that is counter to Apple's whole ethos about it.
0:19:54They were like, oh, production doesn't count.
0:19:56It's just components and software and design.
0:20:01And this feels like Apple saying,
0:20:03"No, production too, we need to not."
0:20:06If they don't own the whole widget,
0:20:07they at least need to not have one company that has,
0:20:10or country that has complete control over their business
0:20:13because that, like Apple, doesn't and shouldn't like that.
0:20:16- So speaking of Foxconn, Foxconn have reported
0:20:21that they are expecting that they will have
0:20:24their main iPhone factory back to full production by the end of December or the start of January.
0:20:30This is following the COVID shutdowns that they've had and then there were riots among
0:20:34the workers due to the restrictions placed on them for lockdowns and that there were
0:20:39frustrations over working conditions and bonus issues which Fox kind of said was an administrative
0:20:46error and everyone's gotten their bonuses now. I'm sure they have after they started
0:20:50rioting. So yeah, it's a mess for them right now. And I am really wondering at this point,
0:20:58when actually will Apple be able to start satisfying demand for the iPhone 14, and how
0:21:04big of an impact is this going to be for them? This is going to be a story that's going to
0:21:09go on for a while, I think.
0:21:11Yeah, yeah. I mean, certainly when you start talking about, "Oh, we're going to be able
0:21:16to get up to speed by the end of December, start in January, that is exiting the holiday
0:21:21quarter, right? Which means that what they're sort of saying there is, you know, they're
0:21:26priming the pump for Apple's statements in late January when they do their financial
0:21:33results for their holiday quarter and the iPhone sales are way down from what anybody
0:21:38expected that they're going to say, "Well, this is because of the factory and we couldn't
0:21:42fulfill demand, but…" And then the next question is, "Is Tim Cook going to be able
0:21:46to say, "But we are back up to speed now," or "We got back up to speed a couple weeks
0:21:51ago," or "We expect to be back up to speed and have fulfilled all orders in the next
0:21:56few weeks." And that's the question, but it seems to me that it's going to be in the damage
0:22:01control of, you know, after they pick through the wreckage of the holiday corridor, to say,
0:22:08"But it's, you know, but we fixed it." That's how, that's where this is now, right? Because
0:22:15can't like this is happening now the holiday quarter is almost over this is
0:22:20gonna be an issue and you know we don't know how much but you know six billion
0:22:25I mean like it's gonna be a big issue and then the question is will they get
0:22:29this in balance for next quarter or not you know I'm always looking looking
0:22:34forward to earnings you know I look forward to it I'm really looking forward
0:22:36to this next one I know like I'm just imagine those charts it's it's like a
0:22:41month and a half away but just imagine those charts now they're gonna be so
0:22:44interesting. I'm excited about that. Just get ready.
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0:24:54and all of Relay FM. So some big news broke in the middle of last week Apple
0:25:01had a press release for I feel like at this point iOS 16.2 is basically iOS 17
0:25:07It has so many things in it, and things that as well,
0:25:12that they have not mentioned before,
0:25:14like that Apple Music Sing, like the karaoke mode.
0:25:17So this is the first time we've heard of it.
0:25:18Why is all this stuff happening?
0:25:19But it is.
0:25:20And 16.2 is bringing with it a selection of features.
0:25:24One of them we'd heard about before,
0:25:26but there was like three or four new things
0:25:28around security, data protection, that kind of thing,
0:25:33of you as an individual.
0:25:34But the big thing that everyone's talking about
0:25:36is a new feature called Advanced Data Protection,
0:25:40which is essentially end-to-end encryption
0:25:43for your iCloud account and all of the stuff
0:25:46that would be stored within an iCloud backup, pretty much.
0:25:49So in the past, we've spoken about this in this show before,
0:25:53it's something that's been frustrating for me for a while,
0:25:56and which is that you can,
0:25:59Apple end-to-end encrypts a ton of stuff just by default.
0:26:04So it's on your phone and the keys are stored on your device.
0:26:09They can never access it.
0:26:11That includes messages, unless you use iCloud backup,
0:26:15which you should and everybody does.
0:26:18And if you also use iCloud-- what is it called?
0:26:21Messages in iCloud or something like that?
0:26:24Messages in the cloud?
0:26:25Yeah.
0:26:25Then the information is available to law enforcement,
0:26:30that kind of thing.
0:26:31Or if people were to get access to your iCloud account,
0:26:33they could see it, that kind of stuff, right?
0:26:35Have I done a decent job of explaining that?
0:26:38I don't think I feel like I have.
0:26:40- It is, I mean, I don't think it's literally
0:26:43everything they do, like mail calendars
0:26:46and something else is not in there.
0:26:49It's more, it's like nine more buckets
0:26:54that are encrypted now, including messages, right?
0:27:03that iMessage is just completely that way.
0:27:04- iCloud Drive, Notes, Photos, Reminders, Safari Bookmarks,
0:27:08Shortcuts, Voice Memo, Items, and Wallet Passes,
0:27:11as well as Messages will be included
0:27:13in Advanced Data Protection.
0:27:15The important one here, I think, really is Messages, right?
0:27:18Like, that your messages are yours, they are kept secure.
0:27:23Of course, for a message conversation
0:27:26to actually truly be end-to-end encrypted,
0:27:28both people have to have turned on
0:27:30Advanced Data Protection, right?
0:27:31So like if me and you both have it on,
0:27:33no one could ever get to our message.
0:27:35But if I didn't and you did,
0:27:38and someone wanted to subpoena Jason Snow,
0:27:43then they could get that information potentially.
0:27:46- So I just wanted, you mentioned messages in the cloud,
0:27:48I wanted to mention.
0:27:49Messages in the cloud is end-to-end encrypted.
0:27:53But if you turn on iCloud backup,
0:27:56not only are your messages backed up,
0:27:58but the decryption key for messages in the cloud
0:28:01is backed up, which gives you access.
0:28:03So you were already able to make messages
0:28:06completely unencrypted, but it was that same thing.
0:28:08You have to turn out off iCloud backups in order to do it.
0:28:11- That's like the special incantation.
0:28:12- Right, 'cause the key to unlock them is in the backup.
0:28:16And so it's not like, it's a little complicated,
0:28:19but that's what it is.
0:28:19And if you turn on this new advanced data protection thing,
0:28:22then it is just because the backup is also encrypted,
0:28:24it means that everything that could have the key
0:28:27is encrypted and therefore it's end-to-end encrypted completely.
0:28:31So if you have advanced data protection turned on, it means that Apple cannot look at your
0:28:38data or provide your data to any outside entities. So this is like one of the big things, right?
0:28:45So like...
0:28:46It's the subpoena thing where it's like, well, you get a law enforcement agency gets a court
0:28:49order to go to Apple and say, we need the records of this person. And Apple has to put
0:28:57provide them with those records if they can.
0:29:00And they've been able to do that
0:29:04with things like the unencrypted iCloud backup,
0:29:07which gives access to all of that.
0:29:08If it's end to end encrypted
0:29:12and Apple does not hold the keys, Apple can't do that.
0:29:16That also means that Apple can't help you out
0:29:19when you call and say, "Oh, I lost my password
0:29:22and I can't get any of my photos."
0:29:24and that leads to some other features that are in here.
0:29:27But yeah, that's the idea is,
0:29:29if the FBI comes to Apple and says, I want this,
0:29:31Apple, if advanced data protection is turned on,
0:29:34Apple will say, we can't provide that to you
0:29:36because we actually don't hold the key to unlock that data.
0:29:40We can give you the encrypted data, I guess,
0:29:42but that's it, we can't decrypt it for you.
0:29:46- I want to put a pin in that part
0:29:48and come back to it in a minute,
0:29:49'cause I just want to go through,
0:29:50she said like the other thing that you mentioned.
0:29:52So one of the reasons that apparently Apple's been resistant
0:29:55to have end-to-end encryption is the customer support angle.
0:30:00So if somebody loses the access to their devices
0:30:03and forgets their iCloud password, in theory,
0:30:06then they have lost all of their data,
0:30:08all of their photos, their notes, right?
0:30:10They've lost their messages, they've lost everything.
0:30:12And that can be pretty catastrophic to someone.
0:30:15So they're doing a couple of things.
0:30:16One, advanced data protection is opt-in
0:30:18and you have to read and agree to a bunch of scary warnings
0:30:21where they are, and Craig Federighi did a short video
0:30:25interview with Joanna Stern, people should go watch that,
0:30:27it was very interesting, and he referenced it
0:30:30as like the responsibility, like it's added responsibility
0:30:34for you and potentially somebody else in your life
0:30:37as they've created, like they wanna basically force you
0:30:40into doing one of a couple of different things.
0:30:43One is to print out or like take note of this very long code
0:30:48or recovery code, you know, I would get it,
0:30:50put it in one password or something,
0:30:51and/or create a recovery contact.
0:30:55So for example, I could set Jason as my recovery contact,
0:30:59and if I lost all of my access,
0:31:01I can ask it to contact my recovery contact.
0:31:03It will send Jason a code,
0:31:05and then it gives some instructions
0:31:06that he would then go through with me
0:31:07to help me get my account back.
0:31:09This is smart, right?
0:31:10Like this is the way to do it if you're gonna do it,
0:31:12and also to make sure that if you don't add this,
0:31:15we're not gonna let you put it on,
0:31:16I think is probably the way to go.
0:31:18- Right.
0:31:19I don't know exactly technically what's happening with that,
0:31:21but my guess is that Apple has a portion
0:31:26of the decryption key,
0:31:30but not, either Apple has
0:31:33or the person you share it with has it.
0:31:36But my guess is that Apple has a portion of it,
0:31:39and then a portion of it is placed in the person.
0:31:43- Well, I just assumed that this was just like a code
0:31:48that you needed to access the password reset field
0:31:52or something like that.
0:31:53That's how I'd assumed it was.
0:31:55- Yeah, but you gotta be able to decrypt the data.
0:31:59If the data is decrypted, you can reset the password,
0:32:01but how do you get to the decryption key, right?
0:32:06And this is actually one of the things
0:32:08that struck me about this
0:32:09that I think is worth diving into.
0:32:11And I don't, like I said,
0:32:13maybe there's something written about this.
0:32:14I haven't seen it.
0:32:15but having that other person is a potential weakness
0:32:20in this, right?
0:32:24If you're afraid that a state actor is coming to get you,
0:32:27you probably, my guess is you would use
0:32:31that long decryption code that you have
0:32:33in a very, very safe place.
0:32:34- Or the physical key thing, right?
0:32:36You could also use that, which they added support for.
0:32:39- Right, but like this is the challenge there
0:32:43is that you have a backup
0:32:45and one of your backups is a person.
0:32:48If that person is not using the system, right?
0:32:51Like, okay, does Apple have access
0:32:54to the information in their backup
0:32:56that would give them access?
0:32:58And it sounds like,
0:33:00I don't know that there's a collaboration going on here.
0:33:02I'm sure that Apple has thought this through,
0:33:04but it is just, it's a little bit like saying,
0:33:07well, we're doing two factor,
0:33:08but we're putting it in a text message, right?
0:33:10It's like, well, the text message could get intercepted,
0:33:12That is, your alternate method has to also be secure.
0:33:17So I think that that's a question
0:33:19that I don't know the answer to,
0:33:22but it's a nice idea that is like,
0:33:24especially for consumer type people
0:33:27or people who wanna do this,
0:33:28but are not at the level of being a dissident
0:33:32or a journalist or something like that,
0:33:34is saying, "Well, I wanna turn this feature on anyway,
0:33:38and I'm gonna turn it on and give it to my pal.
0:33:41and my pal is gonna turn it on and give it to me,
0:33:43and then we're our backup contacts.
0:33:46And that's probably enough for anybody,
0:33:49but at the highest levels of security.
0:33:51- So it's gonna be available in the US by the end of 2022,
0:33:56and is gonna be available outside the US later in 2023.
0:34:01And then at some point, and it seems the rest of the world,
0:34:08we'll see what countries it is or isn't in, right?
0:34:11and I'm going to be intrigued to see.
0:34:13When pressed by Joanna Stern,
0:34:15Craig was like, about China, was like,
0:34:17"They haven't told us it can't be," or whatever.
0:34:19As far as I'm aware, it's okay.
0:34:21And I'm intrigued.
0:34:23That was an interesting answer.
0:34:25I will be really intrigued to see what happens
0:34:27because everybody, you may not know,
0:34:29but we spoke about it a bunch.
0:34:31The iCloud servers for China are in China.
0:34:33They're operated there.
0:34:35This is the thing that doesn't happen
0:34:37in other countries where it's mandated
0:34:39mandated that it must be. So I'm very intrigued to see about the way that that ends up going
0:34:44down.
0:34:45Right, because all it really takes is for China to pass a new law that says no encryption
0:34:52for stuff stored on cloud or something, right? Like that's all they really need to do. And
0:34:58then they're like, "Apple, you have to follow our laws. You can't have this feature in China.
0:35:03We've outlawed this feature in China."
0:35:05And that's interesting, right? If that happens, so let's imagine that the American government
0:35:08does this, right? We'll just purely hypotheticalize it. What then happens to this feature? Like
0:35:17if you've turned it on and then in three years time it's now illegal and to end encryption
0:35:23is illegal, is there anything that realistically can be done at that point? Like you've turned
0:35:28it on.
0:35:29Well yeah, I mean Apple could force a software update that turns it off.
0:35:35Because this is the thing, right? Apple are now, and I'm sure this is one of the other reasons that they've not done this before,
0:35:42and I'm intrigued, I'm really intrigued as to why now, like about this, but this is going to upset a lot of nations, right?
0:35:50Yeah.
0:35:52It shouldn't, but it's going to. I think it's going to upset, I mean probably every government in the world, honestly.
0:35:58Like, it's probably there is going to be some part of each government that's going to be
0:36:02annoyed about this in some way or law enforcement.
0:36:04Well, especially if you define the government there as you talk about the law enforcement
0:36:07entities in those organizations, right?
0:36:09Because the truth is every law enforcement organization will complain whenever there
0:36:14is any reduction in the number of techniques that they have to get what they want, right?
0:36:21Like that is, and I always say this, but like this goes back to the Miranda warning that
0:36:25we've seen in every detective and cop show ever on TV in our lifetimes. When that came
0:36:30in in 1971, 70, something like that, 50 or more years ago, everybody was like, "Oh, cops
0:36:37are never going to be able to interrogate anyone or arrest anyone." It wasn't true.
0:36:42They just had to read them their rights. But they fought it because they're like, "No,
0:36:46no. We don't want them to know their rights." And this is a little like that where it's
0:36:50They will never, it's not the job of the police to say, "No, no, we don't want this."
0:36:55It is the job of the rest of the lawmakers, essentially, to say what the rules are there.
0:37:01And I think that's the question worldwide, as you point out, which is, is end-to-end
0:37:07encryption, so there's no way to have it be retrieved under a court order or something,
0:37:15something that could be made illegal?
0:37:18And if it is, what does Apple do?
0:37:19And I think the answer is probably that in countries
0:37:22where it's illegal, Apple turns this feature off.
0:37:24I think that's what it means.
0:37:26- 'Cause what else realistically can they do,
0:37:29I guess, in that situation, right?
0:37:31Does, you have to, I guess, if they wanna operate
0:37:35in a certain country, they have to abide by its laws,
0:37:37which is why there'll be USB-C and iPhones, right?
0:37:40Because what are they gonna do?
0:37:43- Are we gonna do a real-time follow-up now
0:37:45so people don't email us?
0:37:47- I mean, it's probably too late,
0:37:48but Zach has given us a link in the Discord
0:37:52to an Apple support document.
0:37:54- It's what I said, which is Apple keeps part of it,
0:37:56and part of it is--
0:37:57- The recovery contact, we're talking about
0:37:58the recovery contact. - Yes, it is, yeah.
0:38:00Apple keeps part of it,
0:38:01and part of it goes to the recovery contact.
0:38:03And so Apple could be subpoenaed,
0:38:05but the recovery contact also has it.
0:38:08- Well, it's a different key.
0:38:09So, I'm gonna read.
0:38:10When a user sets up a recovery contact,
0:38:13the key to access the user's data,
0:38:14including end-to-end encrypted CloudKit data,
0:38:17is encrypted with a random key that is then split
0:38:20between the recovery contact and Apple.
0:38:22At recovery time, only when the two are recombined
0:38:24can the original key be recovered and their data accessed.
0:38:28- Right, so my only question is where is that key stored
0:38:30and is that also encrypted?
0:38:32I assume it is.
0:38:34- Let's assume yes, I think we could probably assume yes.
0:38:36- Yeah, right.
0:38:37- Like, 'cause really, this whole advanced
0:38:41data protection thing, it feels to me like,
0:38:44"Hey, we're gonna do this seriously now."
0:38:47Where in the past it's been a little bit like,
0:38:50"Yeah, but you kind of,"
0:38:51like as we said earlier, right?
0:38:53"You are into end encrypted in some instances
0:38:56"and some stuff is unless you do this."
0:38:59But it doesn't feel like that now.
0:39:00This to me feels very much like,
0:39:03for some reason they have decided
0:39:05that now is the time that they're going to pull the trigger
0:39:07and just do this whole thing.
0:39:09- Yeah.
0:39:10- But I am really intrigued about,
0:39:13you were saying about law enforcement agencies, right?
0:39:16And we remember the San Bernardino case.
0:39:19It was a, you know, there was a FBI needed Apple
0:39:24to unlock a phone because of a shooting,
0:39:27and they had the phone of the people,
0:39:29and they wanted to get it so they could find out
0:39:31what was going on, and Apple wouldn't do it.
0:39:33Couldn't do it, wouldn't do it,
0:39:35and wouldn't do what the FBI wanted them to do,
0:39:38which was to create basically a backdoor into iOS
0:39:41to allow them to get that data.
0:39:43- Yeah, a special version of iOS that they could put on it
0:39:46that would, yeah, exactly.
0:39:48- So the thing at the time was,
0:39:51Apple were being roasted in the media, right,
0:39:55of supporting terrorism, basically.
0:39:58It is only a matter of time now until this happens again,
0:40:01because they've set up this feature.
0:40:03What do you think about this?
0:40:09I mean, I feel like there are going to be places where it is outlawed and there are
0:40:16going to be places where it's not because it's going to be debated and not...
0:40:21And like in the US, it's possible that they might outlaw something like this.
0:40:26But I think the truth is that, you know, when I talk about Miranda as an example, it's because
0:40:31it all went okay.
0:40:33What happened in the San Bernardino case is they bought some off-the-shelf software that
0:40:37that used a security hole to unlock the phone.
0:40:40- Yeah.
0:40:41- And Apple tries to close those security holes too.
0:40:44And that's a whole other story where they're like,
0:40:46how dare they fix the security?
0:40:48And Apple's statement there is always very strong,
0:40:50which is if good guys can use the security hole,
0:40:53bad guys also can use the security hole
0:40:56and we protect our customers from bad guys.
0:40:58So we close all the security holes.
0:41:00That's our goal.
0:41:01But they're always gonna be probably some that exist.
0:41:05That's just sort of the nature of the complex systems here.
0:41:07So, you know, there'll be lots of talk about it, and I think in certain places there will
0:41:13be action, but in a place like the US where there's a lot of, you know, you would need
0:41:20a lot of political will, and there are, you know, things like right to privacy and the
0:41:25Constitution, right, like, it might be harder to make that sort of sweeping statement, but
0:41:31in China it won't be.
0:41:32And you know, because as well they're also introduced in the lockdown mode, right?
0:41:36And this is for, I mean it's created, we spoke about this before, created for people that are potential targets of state interference.
0:41:43But anyone can turn it on and it essentially limits how an iPhone talks to the web to thwart backdoor attempts to protect against these kinds of software, right?
0:41:53Like the Pegasus software and stuff like that.
0:41:55So like the combination of advanced security, advanced data protection and lockdown mode,
0:42:02like that phone is in a Faraday cage as much as Apple can make it, right?
0:42:07And so it's, I would just say, I mean, I don't want anyone to misunderstand me.
0:42:16I am very happy that they have done this. I think they should do this.
0:42:19I have wanted this for myself and I'm going to turn it on as soon as I get access to it.
0:42:24I'm just intrigued about Apple having done this with all of the potential problems that they could get themselves into for it.
0:42:32Right, it's all the reasons that we said that they probably wouldn't do this or they might not do this, even though we wanted them to do it,
0:42:38was that they were going to end up putting themselves up against a lot of people in a lot of governments all around the world and a lot of law enforcement
0:42:47who have come to rely on subpoena, well,
0:42:51and let's just back up a point.
0:42:53What we're saying here is that technology changed the game
0:42:56in terms of law enforcement in a few ways.
0:42:59Yes, it is used, it can be used by criminals
0:43:02to commit crimes and you can have a burner phone
0:43:05or you can have encrypted messages that they can't get to.
0:43:07But like the big picture is also that we put all
0:43:12of our key information on a device
0:43:14and the device is something we carry around with us.
0:43:17And it used to be, and a lot of the laws are written
0:43:20in the constitution and all sorts of things
0:43:23that in the US at least,
0:43:25there is what's in your mind, it's not subpoenaable,
0:43:29there's the stuff that's in your house,
0:43:31which is subpoenaable, but you have to actually get it.
0:43:34The things you carry on your phone out in public
0:43:37do not have the same protection
0:43:40as the things that are in your house,
0:43:42which do not have the same protection
0:43:43as the things that are in your brain, right?
0:43:45Like there's a change there where the phone
0:43:49is like a loophole where it's like, aha,
0:43:51you carry that out in the world and we can get it
0:43:53and we can look at it.
0:43:55And cloud services are like that too, right?
0:43:57We move to the cloud and now your personal information
0:43:59is suddenly not on your person or in your brain,
0:44:03but it's in some company's data center unencrypted
0:44:08or encrypted and they have the key.
0:44:11And it's a loophole for them.
0:44:14It is a tool they can use where they're like,
0:44:16"Oh, now all that stuff that would have been committed
0:44:19"to memory or written down on a piece of paper,
0:44:21"somewhere locked up is now just in this place
0:44:25"where we can just get a subpoena and take it."
0:44:28And so they've benefited greatly from that.
0:44:31But I would argue, and I think Apple would argue,
0:44:33that that was a function of the early days of the cloud.
0:44:37And that the direction this is all going is back toward,
0:44:41if it's your personal data,
0:44:43you should hold the key to it.
0:44:45And that is what Apple's trying to do,
0:44:51is say, look, it was a function of the development of this,
0:44:56that for a while there was unencrypted stuff
0:45:00or stuff that was encrypted
0:45:01and the cloud provider held the key.
0:45:04But that's not how in the grand scheme of things,
0:45:07somebody's personal information should
0:45:09or has ever really worked.
0:45:11and we don't want to hold the key.
0:45:15And we don't believe, Apple would say,
0:45:16we don't believe that any big tech company
0:45:19should hold the key to their customer's personal information
0:45:22that the customer should, right?
0:45:25And I think they're absolutely 100% right about that.
0:45:29You know, that's not gonna make people
0:45:30in law enforcement very happy,
0:45:33but I think that that's the fact.
0:45:35And the challenge is that I can say that,
0:45:37and I can say that I think that there's a lot of history
0:45:40law in the United States that supports that, but it's one act of Congress like back after
0:45:529/11 where they suddenly were like, "Oh no, we need to make a whole bunch of stuff illegal,"
0:45:57and one step like that. Or we live in an era now where I have to say, "Or a Supreme Court
0:46:03ruling that goes against all sorts of established law because they've decided that they want
0:46:09to be different. And that's all it will take in the US for something like that to happen.
0:46:14But I do think Apple is doing the right thing. And I think it's interesting because they
0:46:18have to know all of the crap that is going to come down on them. It's inevitable, right?
0:46:25In a place like China or other authoritarian countries, it may just be as simple as you
0:46:29can't do that here. And in a place like the US, it starts with a crime being committed.
0:46:34and then somebody from the FBI walking out and saying,
0:46:37"Apple is the reason that we can't investigate this
0:46:40"because they've chosen to harbor the secrets of criminals
0:46:45"without any access for law enforcement."
0:46:47And we've been through that before.
0:46:49But I think it's still the right thing for them to do.
0:46:54And I think they will probably be forced in some markets
0:46:57to just turn this stuff off.
0:46:58But part of me thinks that the strategy here is,
0:47:03Apple wants to be in the place where Apple has done
0:47:05everything that it can to ensure the privacy
0:47:09of the data of its users.
0:47:10And that if that privacy is taken away,
0:47:14it's because it's been taken away by a government
0:47:16or basically by a government, by a law, by something.
0:47:21And it allows Apple to say, "It's not us.
0:47:24We're not conspiring to take away your privacy.
0:47:28Your government has forced us to."
0:47:31and now people can roll their eyes at that and be like,
0:47:33"Oh, well, yeah, you're just complying."
0:47:35Like that always is what happens with Apple and China,
0:47:37right, is that Apple complies with China's restrictive laws
0:47:40and then everybody says, "Well, you should just leave China,"
0:47:42which we know they can't do.
0:47:44And Apple's policy has always been like,
0:47:46"We comply with the laws."
0:47:47So like when they were in Russia, they're like,
0:47:49"We're gonna suggest the apps that the Russian government
0:47:52"passed a law saying that we have to give to you."
0:47:54- Or we're gonna change the emoji or whatever.
0:47:56- Exactly right.
0:47:57And that has been, so that, and you don't have to like it,
0:48:00But I feel like that is Apple's base strategy is,
0:48:03let's come out and say,
0:48:05we have the capability to do the right thing.
0:48:07And if we aren't allowed to do the right thing,
0:48:10it's because somebody forced us, right?
0:48:13That's the answer there.
0:48:14And then people will still complain and be like,
0:48:15well, you should just leave that country.
0:48:17Okay, but they're probably not gonna do that in most cases.
0:48:20They did in Russia.
0:48:21They're probably not gonna do that in China.
0:48:23But it does put them on the side of like,
0:48:25well, we tried to do the right thing.
0:48:28and then the bad people made us not.
0:48:31- Yeah, you're mentioning about like,
0:48:33all it takes is one rule change,
0:48:36all it takes is one Supreme Court ruling,
0:48:38all it takes is one rule change in any country
0:48:41to get this stuff taken away.
0:48:43Isn't there a possibility that it,
0:48:46but in doing this, Apple makes it more like,
0:48:49it is more likely that this will happen in more countries?
0:48:53Just like the mere act of Apple creating this feature
0:48:57accelerates the risk of end-to-end encryption
0:49:02being made illegal because now every iPhone in the world
0:49:07can have full end-to-end encryption.
0:49:09- Yeah, yes, but I think,
0:49:14yes, but do you want to be,
0:49:19do you want to go on having your people believe
0:49:24that things are secure, many of which are not?
0:49:26- Mm-hmm, this is the right thing to do.
0:49:29I'd just like to think through the possibilities.
0:49:31- Well, no, 'cause I get the big picture here,
0:49:33which might be like, Apple does this,
0:49:36and the net result is that signal was outlawed, right?
0:49:39Like right now we live in,
0:49:41you talk about your various kind of weird things
0:49:43that are based on the progression of technology.
0:49:45And one of them is you put things on the cloud
0:49:47and they aren't encrypted on the cloud,
0:49:49and now they, and they should be, but they weren't.
0:49:51And now we're trying to get there and it's a controversy.
0:49:54Well, one of the places we've gotten to is
0:49:57a lot of these major platforms like Apple's
0:50:00don't have all the encryption everywhere.
0:50:02And as a result, there are a bunch of third-party services
0:50:05like Signal that have sprouted up
0:50:08that are able to do complete end-to-end encryption.
0:50:11Like that's their whole thing.
0:50:13And they're able to do that.
0:50:14And maybe the heat is not on them as much as it would be
0:50:18because they're the fallback
0:50:21and the eyes of the world are on the big companies
0:50:25and the defaults like iMessage, right?
0:50:28And by doing this, if Apple prompts
0:50:32more anti-encryption policies,
0:50:36it could make it bad for everybody
0:50:38who is doing end-to-end encryption.
0:50:39That's absolutely the case.
0:50:41But if you're Apple, I think what you think is,
0:50:45Apple has so many more customers than Signal does.
0:50:48and Apple feels like there's a fundamental benefit to,
0:50:53right, it's the idea of if you lock it all down
0:50:58and you don't even think about it,
0:51:00then everybody is protected
0:51:02and that there's value in that.
0:51:04However, I'll also point out this feature is off by default
0:51:08for lots of decent reasons,
0:51:10but I feel like that's Apple's one hedge here,
0:51:16is well, it's a feature you can turn off
0:51:19and you have to turn it on.
0:51:20You have to want to turn it on
0:51:21and most people won't turn it on.
0:51:23And I do kind of wonder if Apple's gonna,
0:51:25when this comes out, Apple's gonna say,
0:51:27"Well, you know, people have to choose to turn it on."
0:51:30They could force it, right?
0:51:32They could do what they've done with two-factor,
0:51:34which is make it extremely uncomfortable
0:51:37to not have two-factor authentication turned on
0:51:39on Apple devices, right?
0:51:40They made that choice.
0:51:42They could do that with this, but they haven't.
0:51:44Maybe they will one day, who knows?
0:51:47I mean, it seems unlikely, but maybe they will.
0:51:50- Maybe.
0:51:51- In part of talking about this,
0:51:52Craig Federighi confirmed to Joanna Stern
0:51:55that they have abandoned their previous plans
0:51:57for on-device scanning of child sexual abuse material,
0:52:00the CSAM stuff.
0:52:01- Yeah.
0:52:02- They didn't give any more details,
0:52:03like what are they gonna do then?
0:52:05But that whole plan of the on-device scanning
0:52:10that we spent a bunch of time talking about,
0:52:13Was that last year or was that this year?
0:52:15It wasn't this year, was it?
0:52:16I think it was last year.
0:52:17- Yeah, maybe so. - I think it was 2021.
0:52:19That entire program has gone, just gone.
0:52:23- Yeah, it was last year.
0:52:25I'm sure it was one of those upgrade-y, bad story things.
0:52:27- Which is the right thing for them to do
0:52:29'cause that was a bad idea.
0:52:30- Yeah, but this is another case
0:52:32where they're going to put themselves in,
0:52:34they're making a target of themselves
0:52:37because people are gonna be able to say
0:52:40that Apple has now no facility to scan for those images,
0:52:45right?
0:52:46Like they're all the photos are encrypted on the server.
0:52:49And if they're all encrypted on the server,
0:52:52Apple can't scan them.
0:52:54And Apple's not intercepting them at upload
0:52:56because they're encrypted.
0:52:58And they're not doing the thing
0:52:59where they intercept them on your phone
0:53:01because everybody said, "Well, wait a second.
0:53:02"Now my phone is spying on me."
0:53:04And so it's going to hasten the spread of this material.
0:53:08That will be the argument.
0:53:09- See, 'cause then I would assume, right,
0:53:11that Apple will have to do what other tech companies
0:53:15are doing if they're gonna do something,
0:53:16which I think they have to,
0:53:18which is to do scanning in the cloud.
0:53:20But then they can't do that. - They can't.
0:53:24- With advanced data protection is turned on.
0:53:26- Right.
0:53:27- So, they've put themselves,
0:53:31Apple have put themselves into
0:53:32a very complicated corners with this.
0:53:35- And again, I wonder if the strategy here is
0:53:38you're gonna have to make us do it.
0:53:40It's not quite don't throw me in the briar patch,
0:53:43but it's a little like that, right?
0:53:44It's this, oh no, I don't know if they want it,
0:53:48but I think that it's like, if you're gonna do it,
0:53:50you're gonna have to force me, right?
0:53:52Like, we're not gonna choose to do this,
0:53:55but if you make us do it, we'll do it,
0:53:57because then it's not us making the decision
0:53:59and our hands are tied.
0:54:01And that like, if our commitment to privacy
0:54:04of our users is paramount, let's just fully commit to it
0:54:07and they can force us to back off of it,
0:54:11but we're not gonna back off of it by default, right?
0:54:16And so this may be the strategy here is,
0:54:19if you in the US, let's say,
0:54:21are so concerned about the CSAM stuff
0:54:24being on Apple devices, here's what you need to do.
0:54:28You need to make it a law that we have to scan for it.
0:54:31And then we'll scan for it on device
0:54:34and people will be angry and we'll say,
0:54:36"Sorry, it's the law. We have to abide by the law." I do wonder if that is an aspect
0:54:40of this because they know they're going to get hit by all of this stuff. Either that
0:54:44– well, and the other part of it is maybe this is part of their strategy to say, "We
0:54:48want our customers to see that when Apple is making waves in the news, it's because
0:54:53Apple is erring on the side of the privacy of the customers and not on the governments."
0:54:59And how does that play? I think that it plays differently with different people. But I think
0:55:05that they are trying to walk the walk here to a certain degree with their discussions
0:55:09of privacy commitments, knowing that it's going to blow back.
0:55:13Because what this does, what Advanced Data Protection does, is does the actual thing
0:55:17that they promised for years, which is what happens on your iPhone stays on your iPhone.
0:55:20It's an ad campaign they never should have done because it's one of those things that
0:55:24just comes around and bites them back every little while.
0:55:26Every time there's anything, yeah.
0:55:28Those pictures of the billboards at CES where they put that on these huge buildings is always
0:55:33But this is that, this is what I have wanted.
0:55:36Advanced Data Protection is what I as a user
0:55:38have wanted for years.
0:55:40I just want to know that my information is mine.
0:55:43And I don't worry necessarily, I mean maybe one day I will,
0:55:47but I don't worry right now about a government getting in,
0:55:50but I do worry about Apple getting hacked.
0:55:53Of course it's possible, unlikely, but possible, right?
0:55:57That there's some kind of data breach at Apple.
0:56:00Like every other company can be succumb to it.
0:56:03It's just lucky maybe that they haven't so far
0:56:07or like there's a lot of really great work going on,
0:56:09but lots of companies have this stuff going on, right?
0:56:12It's not happened to Apple.
0:56:13I don't ever want it to because I have so much of my stuff.
0:56:16So I have wanted encryption for a long time,
0:56:19like full encryption of everything, including my messages,
0:56:22which is maybe the most important thing, right?
0:56:25'Cause that's where I'm having private conversations
0:56:27with all of the people in my life.
0:56:29and I want that stuff to,
0:56:31I wanna feel that I have the same sense of security
0:56:33over that as I do how many steps I've walked each day,
0:56:37right, which that has been end-to-end encrypted
0:56:39for a long time, is all your health data.
0:56:41Like, oh, my flights of stair trends,
0:56:44don't let anyone see those, right,
0:56:46but like my messages with my wife, whatever, man, you know?
0:56:50So I'm really happy that they've put this in
0:56:53'cause it's great, but it is an absolute minefield
0:56:56that they're walking into,
0:56:58and I am fascinated to see where it goes.
0:57:03- Yeah, and it's gonna go somewhere.
0:57:04I don't think this is gonna be a quiet thing.
0:57:06This is gonna be, they are prompting response
0:57:10by doing this, right?
0:57:12- And maybe this, why this isn't,
0:57:13wasn't an iOS 16 thing, right?
0:57:15Like they didn't want the whole conversation
0:57:18of their new operating system to be focused around this
0:57:20in the mainstream media.
0:57:21So it's like, we'll leave this for a later point
0:57:24and then introduce it now or whenever it was ready.
0:57:27- Also, this is the time to introduce it
0:57:29where you can introduce it and ship it fairly quickly, right?
0:57:33Whereas if they introduce this in June
0:57:35and said it'll ship this fall sometime,
0:57:37that would give it, everybody, including governments,
0:57:40time to react to it.
0:57:42Here, they wanna ship it, and then again,
0:57:44if my theory is right, ship it,
0:57:46and so then they can point to the governments and say,
0:57:47"That's why you don't get this feature, it's not us."
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0:59:52So there's been some news from Mark Gurman around Apple's car project.
0:59:58Hey, Myke, do you remember when I said that if Apple was committed to shipping a car without
1:00:04a steering wheel that it would never ship?
1:00:07Yes. And it seems like that may in fact be the case.
1:00:11Mark Gurman is reporting that Apple is making significant changes to their ongoing car project.
1:00:19They are no longer planning to release a fully self-driving vehicle, so it will in fact have
1:00:24a steering wheel and pedals if you could imagine such a thing.
1:00:29It has been considered as not feasible at this time to continue with that idea.
1:00:39It will have some autopilot-like features for driving on highways and stuff.
1:00:44And the Bloomberg report says that Apple is intending that people could use the screens
1:00:48in their cars for apps, multitasking, and entertainment while this is happening.
1:00:53I don't see that as a possibility.
1:00:56Again, the laws.
1:00:58The laws, everybody.
1:01:00And also just like, I don't know, maybe as, I don't know.
1:01:04Apple will of course-
1:01:05- Tesla's that have screens in the back seat,
1:01:07they can use those screens to like watch movies and stuff.
1:01:10But there are laws against the driver being able to see
1:01:13distracting stuff in the, at least in the US, right?
1:01:16Like it's not allowed when you're in drive
1:01:19to have like videos playing on the screen.
1:01:22You're not allowed to do that.
1:01:24- At least for a long time.
1:01:25We've got a long time before that should be a thing
1:01:27people will be able to do.
1:01:28- Feels like that is a, yeah, that is the,
1:01:31well, I think, not to draw more Tesla parallels,
1:01:34but this report sounds a little bit like,
1:01:37oh, but we are gonna be able to do full self-driving
1:01:39level five on highways.
1:01:41One of my Apple car theories really is
1:01:47that the reason Apple is doing this
1:01:48is that Apple is convinced or somebody at Apple
1:01:50is convinced that they are gonna be able
1:01:52to be the ones to crack the level five,
1:01:55which is like completely autonomous driving algorithm.
1:01:58And I'll just point out that Tesla has been trying to sell
1:02:02and has been selling this full self-driving thing
1:02:04for ages now that is not full self-driving, right?
1:02:07It's not, it's just not.
1:02:08You have to pay attention all the time
1:02:10and it'll drive itself a little bit,
1:02:12but it is not a completely autonomous,
1:02:15you don't need to look kind of mode.
1:02:19And I feel like Apple somehow thinks
1:02:22that maybe they could do it
1:02:24where Tesla has not yet succeeded
1:02:27after trying for a decade.
1:02:29And leaving aside whether that's realistic or not,
1:02:33Like it would at least make it understandable.
1:02:36Like if Apple thinks they could be first to market
1:02:37with a truly autonomous self-driving car,
1:02:40then that would be a reason to make a car, right?
1:02:43If you're Apple is if you think,
1:02:44oh, we've got it nailed, we've got it down.
1:02:46Nobody else does, but we do.
1:02:48And so when in this context of saying
1:02:50like letting people use apps while they're driving
1:02:52on the highway, that's sorta how I read it
1:02:56is them saying to themselves,
1:02:58well, we may be able not to do,
1:03:00this is like what John Syracuse always talks about
1:03:02when he believes they'll never be self-driving cars, truly,
1:03:05is local roads that are terrible, right?
1:03:08Like local roads that are terrible.
1:03:10We were driving, Lauren and I were driving
1:03:12to Curling the other day, and it had rained,
1:03:15and the sun was coming up,
1:03:16and the sun was bouncing off the road,
1:03:18and they had done work on the road
1:03:20where they had moved some of the roads,
1:03:22so there were lines, but there were also places
1:03:24where the lines had been that had been scraped off
1:03:26and seams in the concrete, or seams in the pavement.
1:03:28you could not tell where the lanes were on that.
1:03:33And that was on a freeway.
1:03:35Like, so roads are, right?
1:03:39Like the human brain struggles with roads sometimes.
1:03:41To get a system that's so perfect
1:03:42that all the little roads and everything
1:03:44are gonna be covered exactly, it seems unlikely,
1:03:47but maybe Apple's placing a bet here
1:03:49if they really do believe they've cracked level five
1:03:52autonomy or that they're going to,
1:03:55which I think is, I would say, look at the lesson of Tesla,
1:03:58which is Tesla has thought that they were about to be there
1:04:01for a while and they're not there.
1:04:03But if they do think that,
1:04:06they would say something like this, right?
1:04:07Which is like, okay, maybe you're gonna need
1:04:09a steering wheel for like the streets.
1:04:11But once you get on the highway, boom,
1:04:13you just lean back, watch some TV.
1:04:16I just, I don't think it's realistic.
1:04:18- Apple will of course be designing its own chips
1:04:22for their car project to run on.
1:04:24Apparently their chips are nearly production ready
1:04:26and are four times more powerful
1:04:28than anything they currently make.
1:04:30I'm not really sure why that means anything,
1:04:32but that's the thing.
1:04:33Like, what about 40 times more powerful?
1:04:36Like how much more powerful does a car need?
1:04:38I don't know, 'cause it's not even about power, right?
1:04:40It's more about the ability to do things in real time,
1:04:43which is, right?
1:04:45'Cause that's the whole thing about cars,
1:04:46is it's a different type of operating system, right?
1:04:48It's a real-time operating system.
1:04:49- Yeah, I guess the idea there is that
1:04:53if you're processing input
1:04:54from all sorts of different places,
1:04:56That's a huge amount of data and you need the speed
1:04:58to process all the input and do whatever kind of like
1:05:01neural processing you need to do in order to,
1:05:03'cause that's what you're trying to do
1:05:04is you've got a bunch of sensors.
1:05:06I don't know what Apple's car sensor plan is,
1:05:09but you got a bunch of sensors and you've got
1:05:12some sort of neural net processing as well.
1:05:14There's a huge amount of data feeding in there
1:05:16so that it can see essentially, right?
1:05:18And it can make, and then make driving decisions
1:05:21based on what it can see.
1:05:23- And they're gonna be doing that LIDAR, radar
1:05:25cameras Apple are going to be making all their own custom sensors and using their
1:05:29own components for this. A quote from the article "Apple will use the cloud for
1:05:35some AI processing and the company is considering a remote command center that
1:05:40could assist drivers and control cars from afar during emergencies." That
1:05:44also seems to tie somewhat into the satellite thing as well which I found
1:05:48interesting. Kind of wild. And they are targeting a sub $100,000 price for the
1:05:54car. So it would basically be in the Tesla Model S.
1:05:59- Luxury sedan. I mean, I've kind of assumed all along
1:06:03that if Apple ever made a car, it would start
1:06:05with the luxury sedan and then follow with the luxury
1:06:09crossover SUV thing. And then they'd go from there.
1:06:14- Apple car mini.
1:06:15- That sounds about right. Yeah, sure.
1:06:18- So here's my question for you, right?
1:06:20I, so reading all of this,
1:06:24like I think it'd be interesting to see
1:06:26what exactly could an Apple car,
1:06:29like the hardware of the car do to make it stand out
1:06:34and also to make it be trusted.
1:06:35Like, because if they could, you know,
1:06:37we saw the CarPlay preview, right?
1:06:40If they continue to make CarPlay better
1:06:42and CarPlay can be more integrated and more awesome,
1:06:46then an Apple car may not have that much
1:06:49of a software advantage,
1:06:51'cause you can get like the Apple experience in another car.
1:06:54So how would an Apple car set itself apart
1:06:59from any other car?
1:07:02- Well, my guess, and also I think Mark Herman's report
1:07:05says that they're still talking to car companies
1:07:07about using their platform.
1:07:09So they're not gonna build their own electric car platform.
1:07:12They're gonna use somebody's electric car platform.
1:07:14the wheels and the engine and all of that.
1:07:19So what's left is the shape of the car,
1:07:24the details on the interior and the exterior,
1:07:27the fact that they will own the entire interface
1:07:30wall to wall, although again,
1:07:31that CarPlay announcement seemed to suggest
1:07:33that they wanted to be able to do that in everybody's car,
1:07:37who would choose to be a partner
1:07:39for that new version of CarPlay,
1:07:41and that they would have all the amazing
1:07:43integrated intelligence that is suggested
1:07:47in Mark Gurman's report, right?
1:07:49Like the stuff that takes it to another level
1:07:52because it's the complete Apple experience.
1:07:54So it's high quality materials
1:07:56and it's the complete Apple experience through and through.
1:07:59And, you know, I think that the truth is
1:08:02that this felt like more, five years ago,
1:08:06this felt more like an opportunity than it does now
1:08:09because so many other electric cars are in the market now.
1:08:12back when it was sort of like Tesla and nobody else
1:08:14or Tesla and like little tiny roller skate cars,
1:08:17like my Nissan Leaf, right?
1:08:20That it was like, well, there's a real opportunity
1:08:22for Apple to get in there and sort of out Tesla, Tesla.
1:08:26But now it's like, okay, yeah,
1:08:28but also every other car manufacturer.
1:08:31And you're doing this CarPlay thing
1:08:33that maybe allows them to bring Apple's interface
1:08:37into their whole design on the inside of the screens.
1:08:42So what is left to really differentiate you?
1:08:48And I'm sure, like we can imagine it, right?
1:08:50Like I'm sure Apple could make something
1:08:53that would be a truly a luxury car for nerds
1:08:58that has great materials and an interesting look
1:09:02and has Apple's touch of design everywhere.
1:09:07Like I can see that,
1:09:11but it feels less essential than it did five years ago.
1:09:16Right? Like when they started this project,
1:09:19it seemed like there was more of a moment
1:09:21for them to come in.
1:09:22And now it feels like there's less of that.
1:09:24- Yeah, 'cause there's so much trust, right?
1:09:28Like that maybe people don't think about,
1:09:31But there is a trust that you've got to have
1:09:34that the car's gonna protect you
1:09:36and is gonna be good, right?
1:09:38And Tesla was able to skirt some of that trust
1:09:43by being like this quote unquote,
1:09:47like first really good electric car, right?
1:09:49First luxury electric car.
1:09:51So that excitement drew people to them
1:09:55and then people bought the cars.
1:09:57But now everyone's making luxury electric cars.
1:10:00- Yeah.
1:10:01is less like I don't know what Apple's thing is going to be that makes people jump over that hurdle.
1:10:08And this has been the thing that I think looking back and reading Mark's reports on this over time
1:10:12and looking back over the whole history of this project titan thing, I'm really coming around to
1:10:18the idea that the thing is that Apple believes they can make a self-driving car that actually
1:10:23works. Yeah. I think that's the thing. I think that what's motivated them all along is Apple's
1:10:29belief that Apple is so brilliant. And they have, you know, again, they do have brilliance,
1:10:37but the question is can they apply it in this category? And we've seen other companies try
1:10:41to apply it and have not succeeded. But Apple believing like, "We're Apple. We can do this.
1:10:47We are going to be able to roll in here like we did with the iPhone, right? We're going
1:10:51to roll in and say, 'Yeah, you've been doing all of these sort of like mildly autonomous
1:10:55cars that you have to really kind of only on certain roads and you've got to
1:10:59pay attention all the time and we're blowing it away like we're making a
1:11:02completely self-driving car you you wouldn't even need to be inside you
1:11:06could just say go pick up my kid and it would go over there right like I think
1:11:09that was the initial conception and and now where we are is sort of like the
1:11:15bargaining stage where if I read Mark's report correctly maybe they say well
1:11:19it's kind of like a Tesla but we have better software so that when you're on a
1:11:24a highway, it will be self-driving. But the other times, you have to have a steering wheel
1:11:29because the other times it won't be, at least not yet. But eventually, like, right, and
1:11:33they're bargaining. And the bargaining is about the level of differentiation they can
1:11:38do and it seems like they're scaling it down and they're scaling it down and they're scaling
1:11:41it down. But I think at least what they want, to answer your question, to set it apart is
1:11:49feature is the autonomy and some level of it somewhere where they feel like this is
1:11:55going to be that they've cracked it and that no one else is going to be able to provide
1:11:59that level of intelligent safety and self-driving and auto correction and whatever else than
1:12:05what Apple does. I am really skeptical that they are going to be able to roll in and do
1:12:11that because the whole industry has been trying to do that for a long time and has not succeeded
1:12:18and it's turned out to be much harder.
1:12:20I mean, again, there's a lot of baggage here,
1:12:23but following Elon Musk on the space side for liftoff,
1:12:28Steven and I learned he makes lots of bold pronouncements
1:12:32that don't end up happening,
1:12:34which is not to say that SpaceX hasn't done amazing things,
1:12:36but they make a lot and he makes a lot of things
1:12:39that are announcements of things
1:12:40that just are never gonna happen
1:12:42on the timeline that he specifies.
1:12:43And Tesla, I think that's one of the issues with Tesla
1:12:47and it comes down to Musk,
1:12:48but it's also this belief that like,
1:12:49oh yeah, it's just around the corner, full self-driving,
1:12:52we're gonna call it that.
1:12:53And like, and it's not just around the corner.
1:12:56There's always another beta,
1:12:57there's always another YouTube video that shows
1:12:59that it still can't make unprotected left turns.
1:13:02You know, it gets better and better.
1:13:03And that's a company that has been out there
1:13:06testing this in the field,
1:13:08having real people use it for years now.
1:13:12And it's still like,
1:13:13it keeps getting incrementally better.
1:13:15So the idea that Apple is gonna be like,
1:13:16yes, but in secret, we have cracked it.
1:13:18We've solved all the problems and we are ahead of everyone.
1:13:21Look, if that's the case,
1:13:23then there is absolutely a reason for them to sell a car.
1:13:25I just am a little skeptical that what's going on there
1:13:28is actually, and we see it with the,
1:13:30oh, maybe we do need a steering wheel thing.
1:13:32It's actually a great belief in their own ability
1:13:35to solve the problem while actually not being able
1:13:38to solve the problem because it's a very, very hard problem.
1:13:41- I don't know about this whole thing.
1:13:43I really don't know about this whole thing.
1:13:45Like I'm now starting to read this as
1:13:49they committed so much time and money
1:13:51that now somebody has said, you gotta ship something.
1:13:53- We might as well just make a,
1:13:55hey, people will buy an Apple car for 100,000
1:13:57and it'll be kind of like a Tesla.
1:13:58Yeah, I think that's maybe where we end up
1:14:01is that they will ship a car.
1:14:03- It's where the rationalizing is taking them to.
1:14:04- It will be made in partnership with some other car maker,
1:14:08but it will have the Apple stamp on it
1:14:10and it will be like a Tesla, right?
1:14:15It will be a computer car.
1:14:17It'll have nice features.
1:14:19It'll be pricey, but it'll be nice.
1:14:21It'll be maybe the luxury people will look at it
1:14:23and be like, this isn't like they do with Teslas
1:14:25and be like, well, this is weird.
1:14:26But the nerds will look at it and go,
1:14:28yay, it's a computer car.
1:14:30And it will do some level of,
1:14:34like it'll do what Tesla does.
1:14:35It'll have like, oh, it's got a sensor to tell you
1:14:37when you've changed lanes
1:14:39and a sensor to turn on the high beams
1:14:41and like, and it'll on the high,
1:14:44It'll have limited autonomy features in specific circumstances, but you still have to pay attention.
1:14:50You can see how if they back off far enough, they'll literally just be making a Tesla,
1:14:54except it'll be an Apple.
1:14:57I think that if you had to ask me to predict what the most likely scenario is for the Apple
1:15:05car, my number one would be none, and my number two would be it'll basically be like a Tesla,
1:15:13a revolutionary autonomous vehicle but more or less the same kind of thing we see from
1:15:19Tesla where it's a computer car that's got those, you know, very mild machine learning
1:15:25based features.
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1:17:46Let's finish out today's episode with some #askupgrade questions.
1:17:53Jack asks, "Why do you think Safari extensions don't work in in-app browsers on iOS?
1:17:59Is it just something Apple hasn't gotten to yet?
1:18:01Drives me mad when I'm blinded by a white website at night
1:18:05because it wasn't norified.
1:18:07Noirified.
1:18:10- Noirified, yeah.
1:18:11Noir is a great Safari extension.
1:18:13I assume that it's a security issue
1:18:18that they don't want extensions rewriting stuff inside apps,
1:18:23but I don't know.
1:18:28It is, I mean, all I can say is I don't know the answer
1:18:33to this, I assume that there's a reason, I hate it too.
1:18:36I hate it too.
1:18:38I also hate it because here's a funny thing.
1:18:41I use Twitterific and I always have it in dark mode,
1:18:47even though my iPad isn't always in dark mode,
1:18:50I have Twitterific in dark mode just 'cause I like it.
1:18:53And it means that all web views in Twitterific load
1:18:56in dark mode.
1:18:57It's super weird.
1:19:00And I don't understand it.
1:19:01And is it like, is it inheriting a flag
1:19:03that's coming from the app?
1:19:04And so it's decided that since the Twitter background is,
1:19:07I don't know, anyway.
1:19:08- Are they able to affect that in any way?
1:19:10- I think maybe they are setting that they're in a dark mode
1:19:14and then when they open the web view,
1:19:15'cause if I then open it in Safari,
1:19:17it just opens in the normal view.
1:19:19So they seem to be,
1:19:20it seems to be inheriting the view
1:19:23that's coming from Twitter, Twitter-ific.
1:19:25And maybe, you know, technically maybe it's a bug
1:19:28since it shouldn't be doing that.
1:19:29But anyway, my point is, I don't know why.
1:19:33My guess is that Apple has some reason
1:19:35that involves a scenario where either they don't,
1:19:39either they just don't wanna build that interface
1:19:41or they haven't built that interface yet
1:19:42into the simplified interface of a web view.
1:19:45But it's also possible that there is a security concern
1:19:49where they, like they don't wanna have the ability
1:19:51to rewrite the contents of web browser,
1:19:54in-app web browsers, either for the sake of the developer,
1:19:58who's not getting what they expect,
1:20:00or for the sake of the user who might be having,
1:20:03seeing something that is not what they're actually
1:20:05supposed to be seeing.
1:20:06I don't know, but I hate it too.
1:20:07That's my answer is, I wish it was also not true.
1:20:11Somebody out there who knows the answer,
1:20:14that you can, who's at Apple can tell us, great, tell us.
1:20:17We'll do some AskUp, great follow up next time.
1:20:20'Cause I would like to know if there's a real reason
1:20:22or if it's just like we haven't gotten to that yet.
1:20:24- And also that person, if you could like,
1:20:26just make it work.
1:20:28- Slide it in there.
1:20:29Just make a file a radar.
1:20:32- No, pull request.
1:20:35Merge.
1:20:36- Yeah, drop that in.
1:20:37Just like if in app browser,
1:20:39then extensions equals yes, semi-colon, brackets.
1:20:44- This is one of my favorite ask up requestions of all time.
1:20:48It comes from Connie.
1:20:50If Apple events had a Marvel-style post-credit scene
1:20:55that would tease the next product
1:20:57that they're gonna drop at the next keynote,
1:20:59what would you picture for one of the upcoming
1:21:02maybe mixed reality headset or Apple car, right?
1:21:04So you get the post-credit scenes where they're like,
1:21:07ah, something else is happening
1:21:08in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, what would Apple do?
1:21:11So I was imagining one.
1:21:12I actually too pull from Marvel.
1:21:14So in the Iron Man movies, right,
1:21:17you know, you'd get those scenes
1:21:19where you'd be looking at Tony Stark's face,
1:21:21like the camera's like inside the helmet, you know?
1:21:25And you could see like his face talking to Jarvis
1:21:27or whatever as he's flying around.
1:21:29I imagine one of those, but it's Tim Cook
1:21:32and he's got the AR helmet on and we don't see it,
1:21:35but we know he's got it on and he's like, wow!
1:21:39And that's the post-credits scene, you know?
1:21:41That's what I imagine.
1:21:43- I feel like in the true tradition of Marvel movies,
1:21:47It'll be like somebody we've never seen before,
1:21:49but who is known, but you've got to like go on the internet
1:21:53and look up who they are because you don't recognize them,
1:21:55but they are a known person at Apple
1:21:57that only the real hardcore nerds will recognize them.
1:22:01And you're like, what are they doing?
1:22:04And you know, and the truth is they're going to be revealed
1:22:06to be the next Apple CEO,
1:22:07but that doesn't happen until phase six.
1:22:10And they drive away in a car that we only get a glimpse of.
1:22:13And we're like, who was that?
1:22:14And what were they driving?
1:22:15I don't know.
1:22:16Maybe I'll look it up on the internet later.
1:22:17The end.
1:22:18- Oh, have you not heard of that person?
1:22:20They're the vice president
1:22:21of software architecture and systems.
1:22:23- Oh, the backstory there is amazing
1:22:24'cause they work for Intel for a while
1:22:28and then they did a startup
1:22:30and then they came back to Apple, bought the startup
1:22:32and they came back.
1:22:33It's a complicated backstory,
1:22:35but you could read all about it.
1:22:36I've got a book that you could read about it if you want to.
1:22:39And it's like, no, no, no, that's fine.
1:22:41I'll just wait for the next Apple event.
1:22:42- They're really big on the web blogs.
1:22:44Like it's a big deal on the web blogs.
1:22:46Like if you've read the web blogs,
1:22:47then you'll know all about them.
1:22:50Oh man, I love that question.
1:22:52And I read your answer in the document earlier
1:22:56and I chuckled to myself.
1:22:57I enjoyed that a lot, Jason.
1:22:59This is very good.
1:23:00John asks, this is a Jason Snell question.
1:23:03If you could choose one feature from the iPhone 14 Pro
1:23:07to have in your 13 mini, what would it be?
1:23:09- This actually was harder than I thought
1:23:13because I kept coming up with new answers.
1:23:15I was like, "Oh, well, obviously it will be the,"
1:23:20and then I realized, so I was like,
1:23:22"The camera, it's gonna be the camera.
1:23:23I just want that camera.
1:23:24The camera is so great,
1:23:25and the camera in the Mini is kind of lacking,
1:23:27so I want that camera."
1:23:28And then I thought about it, and I thought,
1:23:30"Well, no, I could survive with the Mini camera."
1:23:35But the number one reason I'm still using
1:23:38the My Review unit of the iPhone 14
1:23:41is 'cause I want to write and talk about the dynamic island.
1:23:45So I have to say the dynamic island
1:23:48because it would let me go back to my Mini
1:23:50and I'd still have the dynamic island there.
1:23:54But the feature that I would be truly envious of
1:23:56is the camera.
1:23:58The cameras on that iPhone 14 Pro are amazing.
1:24:03But if I had to pick one,
1:24:05because I have not bought a new iPhone
1:24:09and I wanna keep using the Mini,
1:24:10But the problem is I do need to actually like,
1:24:13the state of the art for the iPhone right now
1:24:15is the Pro phone with the Dynamic Island.
1:24:17I can't not use that.
1:24:21Even though that phone is huge and weighs a ton
1:24:22and I really would rather be using my Mini.
1:24:25So if I magically got a Dynamic Island on my iPhone Mini,
1:24:29I'd be very happy.
1:24:30- And Craig asks,
1:24:32"Are you still using or enjoying the Play Date?
1:24:34Is it still a good purchase
1:24:36now that you spent more time with it?"
1:24:39I'm very happy that I bought it.
1:24:41- Yep.
1:24:42- I wish I was playing it more.
1:24:45I'm not playing it more for two reasons.
1:24:47One is, as I've mentioned several times,
1:24:51I understand why they made the decisions they did,
1:24:53but not having a backlit screen limits where I can play it.
1:24:57And there are times where I think,
1:24:58"Oh, I could play the play date."
1:24:59And I realize, well, I can't,
1:25:01because there's not enough light,
1:25:03'cause it really needs to be in a well-lit situation.
1:25:07And the other reason is just me.
1:25:10I am not a big game player.
1:25:13I like the idea of playing games,
1:25:16and then I almost always choose something else
1:25:21to do with my time.
1:25:23I prioritize other things over games a lot.
1:25:26And I am amazed by my friends who play lots of games,
1:25:30but my understanding is they're also amazed
1:25:32by the fact that I've read more than 50 books this year.
1:25:36So I guess that's part of it,
1:25:40is I'm watching movies and TV shows
1:25:41and doing podcasts about them, and I'm reading books,
1:25:44and games don't often rise up to that moment.
1:25:49But that said, I've loved a lot of the games
1:25:51on the play date, and there are a few in particular
1:25:55that I've been meaning to write a story
1:25:57about the ones that I absolutely love.
1:26:00And I would absolutely sign up for a season two of games,
1:26:04And I wish I played it more, but really in the end,
1:26:08I think it comes down to just not,
1:26:10I brought it with me on trips being like,
1:26:12I'm gonna play that play date.
1:26:13And it's like, I don't, or I play it one time,
1:26:15or I try to play it on the plane and realize
1:26:18that the light above the seat isn't bright enough
1:26:21at the right angle for me to play and stuff like that.
1:26:24So I'm happy I played it.
1:26:25I wish I, I like it so much that I wish I would play it more,
1:26:29but it never or rarely seems to rise to that.
1:26:32And then every now and then I'm like, oh yeah, play date.
1:26:34and then I'll go and I'll play some more Pik-Pak Pup
1:26:36or whatever that one is that's kind of like Asteroids
1:26:40and I'll just play those again because I love them.
1:26:43- I basically agree with 100% of everything you said
1:26:47and feel exactly the same.
1:26:48My only difference is I got a Steam Deck.
1:26:52- Yeah, you do play games.
1:26:54- I play lots and so that has opened up
1:26:56the amount of games that I play
1:26:57and I've just had a lot of really, really good big games
1:27:01that I've wanted to play this year
1:27:02and there's a bunch that I haven't even gotten to.
1:27:04So if I'm going to play games for any period of time,
1:27:06I'm choosing those bigger experiences.
1:27:09But I love the Play Date.
1:27:10I would do the same.
1:27:11Like if they announced the season two, I would be all in.
1:27:13Whenever they announce that Bluetooth clock dock speaker
1:27:17thing, I'm all in on it.
1:27:19Because I think it is a beautiful piece of hardware.
1:27:21It's very fun.
1:27:22And I do hope that one day that they're
1:27:24able to do a second Play Date and it
1:27:26does have a backlit screen.
1:27:28I think it would make a big difference.
1:27:30I agree with you.
1:27:30I understand why they did it.
1:27:32I make products too, right?
1:27:33Like I understand that you have to make trade-offs, right?
1:27:36Like to either achieve something you're looking for
1:27:38or even to just make the thing, right?
1:27:41Like you have to make compromises.
1:27:43- I mean, it's fundamentally a casual game handheld,
1:27:47which is a funny category,
1:27:48and that's casual indie game handheld, little, cute,
1:27:53all those things, but all those things
1:27:55actually kind of drive it towards situations
1:27:57where having it be lit up would make a huge difference.
1:28:02And I understand why it's not, but like to me,
1:28:06with my product reviewer hat on,
1:28:08that is what I would say is like,
1:28:10I love almost everything about it.
1:28:13And I understand why they made the choice they did
1:28:15to not have a light up display,
1:28:17but it dramatically reduces the opportunity
1:28:20I have to actually use it.
1:28:21And I do love playing games on it,
1:28:24but a lot of the, most of the times that I might play it,
1:28:28I'm in places where I can't play it.
1:28:31That's the truth of it.
1:28:32- Yeah.
1:28:33So if you are still thinking about it,
1:28:36I still recommend it.
1:28:37I think it's a really fun little system,
1:28:40like a fun gadget, a fun toy kind of thing.
1:28:44But it is not perfect and,
1:28:47but some of the games on it are so good, it's worth it.
1:28:51Like, the... what was it? Bloom?
1:28:56Just a wonderful game.
1:28:57Like, that's one of the games that I bought and side-loaded.
1:29:01That's just unbelievable.
1:29:03Yeah, Pick, Crack, Pop is fantastic.
1:29:04Like, there's some great stuff.
1:29:05There's still some games I haven't played.
1:29:07Like, there's a couple of games I actually have not played yet,
1:29:09which I still want to, so.
1:29:11It's a good little system.
1:29:13Yeah, big fans.
1:29:15If you'd like to send in a question of your own,
1:29:17just send out a tweet with the hashtag #askupgrade,
1:29:19to use ?askupgrade on the Relay FM members Discord which you can get access to if you
1:29:24sign up for Upgrade Plus.
1:29:25Go to getupgradeplus.com and you can support the show.
1:29:28Thank you to Trade Coffee and Squarespace and Clean My Mac X for the support of this
1:29:33show but as always thank you for listening and thank you for welcoming me back into your
1:29:38podcast rotation whether you like it or not I suppose.
1:29:42Here I am.
1:29:43I had a nice break but I'm happy to be back on Upgrade.
1:29:46We've got a very fun next few weeks.
1:29:49I enjoy this time of year around here.
1:29:51Got some good stuff coming up.
1:29:52If you want to find Jason online, go to sixcolors.com.
1:29:55He is @jsnew, J-S-N-E-L-L-L.
1:29:58I am @ymike, I-M-Y-K-E, and we'll be back next week.
1:30:01Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.
1:30:05Goodbye Myke Hurley.
1:30:06[MUSIC]