0:00:00Beep ]
0:00:00[ Music ]
0:00:08From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, Episode 401.
0:00:12Today's show is brought to you by Fitbod, Bombus, and DoorDash.
0:00:16My name is Myke Hurley, and I'm joined by Jason Snell.
0:00:18>> From my garage, I'm Jason Snell.
0:00:21Hello.
0:00:21>> I don't live in Relay FM, you know.
0:00:23>> Wherever you go, it's half of Relay FM.
0:00:27>> Live from Mega Studio.
0:00:28- It's your relay M for Myke.
0:00:33- Well, is this like Snell Zone?
0:00:34Like wherever you go?
0:00:35- Yeah, your relay M and Steven is relay F.
0:00:38Why F? I don't know.
0:00:39It's not relay SM, it's relay FM.
0:00:43So he gets to be F.
0:00:43- It's for the F in Steven.
0:00:45- Friendly Steven Hackett.
0:00:47- No, you can hear it.
0:00:47There's an F in Steven.
0:00:49You know, like it sounds that way.
0:00:51Steven, you know?
0:00:52- Yeah.
0:00:53- It just doesn't spell it that way.
0:00:54- Steven Hackett.
0:00:56- Steven.
0:00:57I'm excited about today's episode, Jason.
0:01:00- I am too.
0:01:01- Got a lot of big stuff to cover.
0:01:03- I'm always excited about Upgrade, Myke.
0:01:05It's how I start my week.
0:01:06I get to talk to my friend, Myke.
0:01:07- Hello.
0:01:08- We are really kind people who don't do things
0:01:10like correct other people on their podcasts.
0:01:13We don't do that here.
0:01:13We're nice.
0:01:14- We don't do like what I consider as correction ambush.
0:01:18- No, there's very rarely surprised spiders on this show.
0:01:21So that's good.
0:01:22- I've been ambushed a lot recently on my podcasts.
0:01:24I don't know if you're gonna try
0:01:25take control of this one today who could tell I was the original ambusher though right when
0:01:30I brought Federico Federico did the ambushing that's oh yeah but I was the engineer of the
0:01:35ambush but yes Federico did the ambushing it's true I have a hashtag still talk question
0:01:39comes from Brian Brian wants to know Jason if you were invited to be a guest on the flop
0:01:43house what movie would you want to talk about flop house one of my maybe my all-time favorite
0:01:50podcast. Ooh. Love it. Couldn't, I mean, I love it. Still listen to every episode,
0:01:57although there's an episode that I'm holding because it's a movie I want to
0:01:59see, so I don't want it to be spoiled before I listen, but, but generally yes, I
0:02:04love it. Dan McCoy, Ellie Kaelin, Stuart Wellington, they're great. They just did a
0:02:08live show. Loved it. Happy to pay for that. Just, you know, they're the best. I don't
0:02:13know why I would be invited on to the Floth House, although I will accept, if
0:02:18If invited, I will accept.
0:02:20My choice, I mean, I would go with something recent if they wanted to, because they usually
0:02:24go with something recent, so I would, you know, sign me up for Morbius or something,
0:02:28it would be fine, like something that's kind of up my alley.
0:02:32I would do that.
0:02:34But if I'm going to a classic, I would go to the movie covered already on the incomparable
0:02:40in episode 320, A Rocket Surgery.
0:02:43It's my favorite bad movie of all time.
0:02:461981's Frankenstein Island.
0:02:48And so, boys, I'm ready to talk.
0:02:51I'm ready to take you to the exciting world of Frankenstein Island where it's not really
0:02:56about Frankenstein, but there's a lady with a house and there's these sort of women wearing
0:03:02weird leopard print bikinis, charming snakes, and there's an old drunk in a jail cell, and
0:03:09the ghost of John Carradine appears at various points randomly.
0:03:13It's quite a thing.
0:03:15I discovered this movie in high school, and it was very fun to subject my podcasting pals
0:03:20to this.
0:03:21And you know, every so often I hear from Tony Sindelar, and he tells me, "You know, Jason,
0:03:26I was thinking about Frankenstein Island the other day," and it delights me that it haunts
0:03:31him now like it haunts me.
0:03:32It's great.
0:03:33[laughter]
0:03:34If you would like to send in a #SnowTalk question of your own, just send out a tweet with the
0:03:38hashtag SnowTalk or use question mark SnowTalk in the Real AFM members Discord.
0:03:42Would you like to address the follow-up ambush?
0:03:45I mean, I guess we have to.
0:03:46- Yeah.
0:03:48- So Stephen Hackett on Connected last week,
0:03:50ambushed Myke with fact checking about our discussion
0:03:55of whether Apple would make people charge,
0:03:57pay more for colors, just pure color charges.
0:04:01And we talked about the black MacBook
0:04:03and the black MacBook tax.
0:04:05And Stephen posted a blog post where he wrote about it.
0:04:10And I read that blog post and I thought,
0:04:14oh, it's very nice of Steven
0:04:15'cause he's basically correcting us,
0:04:16but he's not phrasing it as a correction.
0:04:18And then I linked to his post and owned up to the fact
0:04:21that Steven was providing information
0:04:23and we kind of got it wrong last week.
0:04:24Only to listen then over the weekend
0:04:26while I was mowing my lawn to Connected and hear
0:04:30that he wasn't so nice 'cause he ambushed you
0:04:32during Connected with this information.
0:04:34So yes, the argument there is that
0:04:39although the black MacBook was more expensive,
0:04:42It was also higher spec'd, which is true.
0:04:45Although it's also true that if you spec'd the white MacBook to match it, there would
0:04:50still be a price difference.
0:04:52And that was the source of the black tax concept, is that even if you spec'd them identically,
0:04:59it was more expensive.
0:05:00So it was not just the case that there was a higher spec'd model that came in a different
0:05:04color, which is very much like 24-inch iMac, right?
0:05:07Where some of the colors only come in the higher spec model, you can't get it in the
0:05:10base model.
0:05:11even if you made them all line up, the black MacBook cost more for the same specs. There was
0:05:16still a tariff on the color. Also, in current times, and we didn't mention this mostly because,
0:05:23I mean, I didn't even think of it. I just don't think that this is a big deal, but it's a true
0:05:31thing. Apple charges more for the black trackpad, mouse, and keyboard than it does for the white
0:05:36white one, white, silver white one. Why? Because they can.
0:05:41- I've been getting that feedback a lot. Now I'm getting this feedback about these colors
0:05:45from two shows now. - Yeah, it's so lucky for you.
0:05:49- So I just want everyone to stop talking about it.
0:05:51- Let's stop, yeah. Anyway, do I, so I guess my point is, do I think Apple will make a
0:05:57Mac or even an iPhone that is not at all different from the other models, but you pay for it
0:06:06pay more because of the color.
0:06:08I don't think so.
0:06:11They're doing it for the accessories.
0:06:13I don't think they'll do it for a Mac or an iPhone
0:06:15or an iPad, I guess.
0:06:17But the asterisk there is,
0:06:20they may sequester some of the colors.
0:06:22Like it just like the colors in the iPhone Pros
0:06:26aren't the same as the colors in the iPhone,
0:06:28but that's not quite the same
0:06:29'cause you're buying a different phone.
0:06:31And even with the iMac 24,
0:06:33they're sequestering it,
0:06:35but they're doing it in the step up model
0:06:39and all the colors are the same price at that model.
0:06:42So I think I read that question to be really like,
0:06:44literally you can get this computer for $1,500
0:06:48unless you want it in purple,
0:06:49at which point it's $1,600 for the same computer.
0:06:53And I don't think they'll do that.
0:06:54But the counter argument is,
0:06:57why is the black keyboard more expensive?
0:06:59And I have no answer for you there.
0:07:00It's pro, that's why. - Professional,
0:07:01it's a professional one. - It's pro, yeah, it is.
0:07:03It is.
0:07:04I got my studio display.
0:07:06- Yay!
0:07:07Those are arriving.
0:07:09James Thompson, our friend, showed us that he got his
0:07:12and his Mac Studio too.
0:07:13So it's happening, it's all happening.
0:07:15- The studio display that I got,
0:07:18it's just as a refresher to people,
0:07:21was the standard panel
0:07:23with the height and tilt adjustable stand.
0:07:25So the Pro Display XDR looking stand.
0:07:30It doesn't operate exactly as that one.
0:07:32Like I can't do tilting.
0:07:33Like what are they called?
0:07:34clockwise and yeah horizontal to portrait. I thought I would talk you
0:07:40through my impressions of using it for a couple only a couple of days. It is I was
0:07:46immediately struck by how big and heavy the box was like to a point where I was
0:07:53like wow this is the heaviest Apple product box I have picked up in a long
0:07:58time and I expect the majority of I expected the majority of that weight was
0:08:03in the stand that I had on my display. So I looked through it. The Pro Display XDR,
0:08:09sorry, no, that's not what I got. The Apple Studio display with the regular stand is 13.9
0:08:16pounds, which is 6.3 kilograms. The one with the height adjustable stand that I have is
0:08:2116.9 pounds, which is three pounds heavier.
0:08:24You have three pounds of more stand.
0:08:29Which I'm not surprised about, right, that you've got to anchor the display, right, because
0:08:33it can be moved around so much. You don't want it falling over. This is 7.67 kilograms.
0:08:39The iMac that I have sitting in front of me, the 24-inch iMac, I remembered how light that
0:08:44box felt. Well, that was 9.83 pounds, 4.46 kilograms. And I was thinking, well, what
0:08:52could have been the heaviest thing I could remember? And I remember the iMac Pro box
0:08:57being pretty heavy. And that was 21.5 pounds. So it was the heaviest.
0:09:02This display is a lot lighter than the iMac Pro, but not like the 24-inch iMac.
0:09:08That's interesting.
0:09:09So if I really wanted the optimum floating above my desk experience, I should get a VESA
0:09:15mount iMac 24-inch instead.
0:09:18Yeah.
0:09:19That would be nice.
0:09:21I'm not going to do that.
0:09:22Just in regards to the box, I really like the woven handles that they put on these boxes.
0:09:28I had it with the iMac and with this.
0:09:30Just like in general, this all I think came from the Mac Pro, like the way that they do
0:09:35Mac boxes now, especially the desktop boxes.
0:09:37That's so nice.
0:09:38- Yeah, and Mac Pro makes sense, right?
0:09:39'Cause it's lower volume, so they can experiment on a low volume product.
0:09:44'Cause the goal here is to get plastic out of packaging.
0:09:47And they have been working on it.
0:09:48There's a lot of stuff that used to be kind of peel off plastic is now paper.
0:09:53And that handle is a woven handle instead of it being a plastic handle.
0:09:56I believe it's a woven...
0:09:59I don't know what material it is, but I don't think it's plastic. I think it's an actual
0:10:05plant material of some kind. And that's the idea. People can correct me if I'm wrong,
0:10:10but like the idea here is they're trying to get bad contents out of their packaging. And
0:10:16there's still places where there's like a plastic wrap thing. But I remember when they
0:10:21were talking so much about their environmental stuff a few years ago, and then I would get
0:10:25my review units in and there would be plastic everywhere.
0:10:28And I think, well, you guys are still using a lot of plastic
0:10:30in every one of these that you sell.
0:10:32And they have been working on that,
0:10:35which I think is, you know, it helps, I think.
0:10:38- And like, 'cause even the Mac Studio, right,
0:10:42they have a kind of, I saw some unboxings,
0:10:45basically a cardboard shock absorber, right?
0:10:47- Yeah. - In the base of the box.
0:10:48It's like stuff like that.
0:10:49It's like, instead of using foam or whatever,
0:10:51I think it's really cool.
0:10:53- For sure.
0:10:53The panel itself is fantastic, the display. I was immediately struck with the richness
0:11:00in the colours compared to the LG display that I was using prior. I wasn't using one
0:11:06of the ultra-fine or anything like that. I don't even remember, I don't know what colour
0:11:10gamut it had. But this is a Mac with the P3 colour. Obviously it's similar to my iMac
0:11:18display, but just in the environment of using my MacBook Pro in that desk with, you know,
0:11:24it was just like, oh wow, this looks much, much different. I decided I'm going to try
0:11:29running it on like the default display settings. I usually would gravitate towards less space,
0:11:35so like more space I should say, so I had more space on the display, but I'm sticking
0:11:41with the kind of regular because it does look the best. You know, I was originally thinking
0:11:46to do this because I've gone down from a 31 inch display to a 27 inch display for this
0:11:51desk but instead I'm just trying to get used to it because really it just looks best that
0:11:59way.
0:12:00It's true.
0:12:01Not doing any scaling or anything like that.
0:12:02Running a little native resolution there.
0:12:04Yeah but the panel's great you know like there isn't really much to say on here if you've
0:12:07used you know any iMac in years.
0:12:105K, iMac or iMac Pro the most recent ones.
0:12:13- Well, the original was a little bit less of a panel,
0:12:15but the last few years it's been this panel.
0:12:19And yeah, that's absolutely right.
0:12:22I wanted to mention something about the panel that came up.
0:12:25Somebody tweeted at me, Andrew Nelson.
0:12:27He pointed out, related to a completely unrelated
0:12:30CGP gray thread about giant spiders in Hawaii,
0:12:34which we're not gonna talk about.
0:12:36But this display has a laminated screen, I believe.
0:12:40So it's like the panel is laminated.
0:12:42It's up against the glass.
0:12:44What this means is theoretically,
0:12:46I couldn't get a spider in my screen
0:12:49like I did way back when in 2017,
0:12:51when a spider crawled between the panel
0:12:53and the glass on my iMac.
0:12:55I don't think, I think this is a,
0:12:58I can't say it's a spider-free display, right?
0:13:00The spiders could crawl around.
0:13:01- There are holes.
0:13:02There are holes in this.
0:13:04- There are holes 'cause there's vents and fans and stuff.
0:13:07Spiders would have to fight against the airflow,
0:13:11But the key point is it couldn't happen like it happened
0:13:15to my 5K iMac where I woke up one day
0:13:17and there was like a little dead spider in my screen
0:13:22where I just had to look at it until I got it fixed.
0:13:25So thumbs up for lamination is what I'm saying.
0:13:29- And yeah, I didn't really think about that,
0:13:31but I guess that's one of the things
0:13:32that makes it look so good too, right?
0:13:34It's just like the pixels are right there in front of you.
0:13:36Like, I like that.
0:13:37I like the look of that a lot.
0:13:39So it's a subtle thing, but it makes a big difference
0:13:42for just how good the panel looks.
0:13:45Obviously I'm using it with my,
0:13:48you know, the way I've got it set up,
0:13:49I've had a Thunderbolt dock, the CalDigit dock for a while
0:13:52that I was using with my display
0:13:53and I've done some rejiggering to use the dock still
0:13:57because I have a bunch of things I want to plug in.
0:13:59It's a mixture of USB-C and USB-A devices.
0:14:03So the CalDigit dock has that
0:14:05because obviously this display just has three USB-C ports
0:14:09that I could use.
0:14:10And I've noticed immediately lag with my Logitech mouse.
0:14:15I used the Logitech MX Master 3 mouse,
0:14:17and I used the little Logitech receiver that they give you.
0:14:21And it just was not working very well at all.
0:14:23I expect that this is an issue with the CalDigit dock
0:14:26for some reason, because on my,
0:14:28I remembered that I had issues before on my LG monitor,
0:14:31but the LG monitor had a USB-A port on the back,
0:14:34so I just put the Logitech receiver in there
0:14:36and it was no issue.
0:14:37I don't know why Logitech do not make a USB-C version of their unifying receiver.
0:14:43Still, it's just USB-A. I've switched to Bluetooth on this mouse for a bit and that's fine.
0:14:50I prefer the receiver, I do find it to be more reliable.
0:14:53So I did just order today at Steven's recommendation a USB-C to A dongle and I'm going to try plugging
0:15:00it into the display.
0:15:02just in general though there is some rethinking that my desk requires and I'm
0:15:07not really sure what I'm gonna be doing yet like everything needs to be
0:15:11rearranged I don't know where to put the laptop anymore because I would put the
0:15:14laptop underneath the display because the og display that I had clamped on the
0:15:18back of the desk so there was space underneath but now the foot of the
0:15:21studio display is there so I can't put it there so I've been I don't know where
0:15:26to put it you know I've been thinking I wanted to get one of those 12 South
0:15:29things that stands it up but I saw some reviews online that were seeming to suggest that even
0:15:36though they claim they have an insert in their book arc it's called for the 14 inch that
0:15:42it's a little too tight so I'm not sure if I want to go with that option. I have some
0:15:47rethinking to do for how my desk arrangement is going to be. I'm not sure if the CalDigit
0:15:52dock will remain because I don't really need a thunderbolt dock. I need something that's
0:15:58is just USB-C and there are lots of USB-C docks out there that are labeled typically
0:16:03as travel things but they're much more simple and I might go in that route eventually. I'm
0:16:08not sure yet I haven't decided. But I will say that overall even with this rearrangement
0:16:14required my desk looks so much nicer with the display on it. This display is just a
0:16:19good looking piece of computer hardware way more than the big LG ergonomic display. I
0:16:27the LG Ergo display on there before. That thing is just not a good looking computer.
0:16:32But really all of this has been completely, the main reason I wanted this display is that
0:16:39when I plug in the cable to my, I'm still having, I'm still plugging my MacBook Pro
0:16:46into the cable that goes into my CalDigit dock and then that dock goes into the Thunderbolt
0:16:50like port of the display so I can still use everything as normal. But I plug that cable
0:16:55in the monitor turns on immediately. Every single time without fail. And I did not have
0:17:01this experience with any other monitor that I was using previously and it drove me crazy
0:17:05every single day as I had to plug and unplug something to get my monitor to turn on. Sometimes
0:17:12it would only take one cable for me to unplug, sometimes it would take multiple cables, sometimes
0:17:17I'd have to open and close the laptop, sometimes I wouldn't, I'd have to do any of that. Just
0:17:20Laptops closed plug in the cable press either, you know
0:17:24One key on the keyboard or I click the mouse and the screen comes on and I'm ready to go
0:17:27Like and that's exactly what I wanted and that's what I've gotten and I'm super happy with it
0:17:31The height adjustability of this stand is excellent. It's really smooth
0:17:36Something I did notice is it does wobble like when I'm typing
0:17:41The display wobbles now again, this is normal to every display that I have used that suspends itself in some way
0:17:50What I will say to people is if you think that this is something that would bother you do not get this version of the display
0:17:55Get the one with just a tilt stand and get something to put it on
0:17:59Like if I'm typing and I'm not an aggressive type of I'm typing
0:18:04The desk will move right like you you you put bounce in the desk and this the monitor picks it up
0:18:11Right, like the monitor shakes a little bit again
0:18:13I sound very used to this now, but you know any monitor is going to shake when your desk shakes though
0:18:18So it's way more pronounced. It's more pronounced
0:18:22Okay
0:18:22So like I would say it's probably akin to if you use a Vasa
0:18:25Like it would probably be pretty similar if you use a Vasa suspended monitor
0:18:29But this is like this is not something that I notice at all on the desk that I'm on right now
0:18:34where I've got my iMac sitting on top of just a stand because it's
0:18:39the
0:18:41There isn't so much of a residual wobble
0:18:43afterwards and this I mean the things not going wild but I just know how particular Mac users can be right some people and if you
0:18:51Wouldn't have thought this was a thing that could happen. I think it's a good PSA to remind people that it can happen
0:18:57So but the height adjustability is a must for me. I got my ruler out to scales and rulers
0:19:03I've been dealing with over the last couple of days. So my iMac
0:19:06The bottom pixel edge, right? So like if you imagine from where the screen ends, right?
0:19:13That is 15.2 centimeters to the desk.
0:19:18The reason I say it that way is like the actual bottom
0:19:22of the computer is 8.5 centimeters to the desk,
0:19:24but it has the chin, right?
0:19:25- Yeah, exactly.
0:19:26- So an iMac, the 24 inch iMac sitting straight on the desk,
0:19:31that's how high, that's like kind of 15 centimeters,
0:19:3415.2 centimeters from the desk is where the monitor begins.
0:19:37Now I have to put mine on a little stand
0:19:39'cause that's too low for me.
0:19:41The studio displays a comfortable height.
0:19:44That measurement is 19.5 centimeters.
0:19:47So it's like four and a bit centimeters difference.
0:19:51That to me is the level of this is comfortable
0:19:56to this is uncomfortable.
0:19:57- That's good.
0:19:58Also, if you do a,
0:19:59I don't know if you have a sit stand desk,
0:20:01but you usually need to adjust the height
0:20:04when you change configurations too,
0:20:06or at least a lot of people do.
0:20:08That's one of the reasons I have my monitor
0:20:10usually on an arm is when I go standing,
0:20:14I need it at a different height.
0:20:15- Yeah, and now I have this, right?
0:20:17And it really is great.
0:20:19There's a lot of variation in the height
0:20:22that you can get from the display stand,
0:20:24so I'm really happy with that.
0:20:26The second thing that I was intrigued about
0:20:28was the webcam flickering.
0:20:30Now, here's a funny thing about this.
0:20:34When I open any app for the first time
0:20:38that uses the camera, I get the flickering
0:20:42from my overhead lights as I had prior to Mac OS 12.3.
0:20:47If I quit the app and relaunch it, it's fixed.
0:20:52This is not the behavior on my iMac or on my MacBook Pro.
0:20:59- And it's not when you engage the camera the first time,
0:21:02because if you go to a different app, it also does it?
0:21:05- Correct.
0:21:06So it happened in FaceTime, I quit FaceTime, I wrote some notes being like "oh they've
0:21:11ruined it, it doesn't work" and then I open FaceTime again and it happened for half a
0:21:15second and then it fixed itself.
0:21:19Then I opened Zoom, same thing.
0:21:22I wonder if there's something in the background that's basically doing flicker detection.
0:21:27Per app?
0:21:28It should be doing that, like because there are other, like Logitech's cameras can do
0:21:31this, right?
0:21:32Like other cameras do this, they recognize there's a flicker and then they fix it.
0:21:35iPhones do it. So I've seen it happen on iPhones before. Like it recognizes it to flicker just
0:21:40for a second and then it adjusts something in the camera so you stop getting the flickering
0:21:45from the lights. I don't know why it's happening. I mean it's very strange but then it fixes
0:21:53itself. So it's odd. I now know that it happens. I give this recommendation to people out there
0:21:59who are getting one of these and have a similar situation to me. Just quit the app and start
0:22:04again and the flickering will stop. Very odd. But in general, I mean, I share the same feeling
0:22:11about the camera as many reviewers. It looks worse compared to my MacBook Pro and my iMac
0:22:17in my opinion. The colors are really washed out. I look and everything looks really smooth.
0:22:23I look like an oil painting.
0:22:24It is, yeah. It is doing, I've seen a bunch of samples and I've seen it in certain light
0:22:28with mine, it is aggressively processing.
0:22:33James Thompson posted sort of two comparisons in his office space, and you can see like,
0:22:38I mean, you can actually see what it's doing probably wrong, which may be the thing that
0:22:43they fix in software, which is he was, he had one shot where there's like the blacks
0:22:47are blacker and that you can see some shadows and stuff.
0:22:50And then on the studio display webcam, it's like it's trying desperately to have there
0:22:54be no blacks in the display or in the screen at all, and it's trying to lighten everything
0:22:59and get him to be completely the same. It's like a low dynamic range, like let's smooth
0:23:06this out as much as possible and have as little dynamic range as possible. And it does actually
0:23:11feel like the processing is making bad decisions, like let's flatten this. And when I got in
0:23:18a lower light situation, even when we were doing our webcast the other week, at the end
0:23:22of it where I was, I dropped the blinds in my office and turned off some of the lights
0:23:25and or even when I turned on the really bright lights, it started to look weird because it
0:23:30was trying to flatten everything out. So some of that is an effect of taking a portion of
0:23:36a wide angle camera and adjusting it and not having as much resolution. But I do think
0:23:42some of it is that there it's making some bad choices about what you think your picture
0:23:49should look like and it's like I want a really artificial and maybe this was like what they
0:23:54thought like this is what people want for their web their video conferences right is
0:23:59a flat you know no contrast no shadows as flat and and smooth as possible but you go
0:24:07too far down that path and yeah you look like a painting
0:24:09I've also experienced the weird center stage thing where it feels like the camera person
0:24:15stop paying attention. Sure. Where like you move and it takes a long time and then it's
0:24:20like oh there you are and which is again not what I've experienced with iPads. And then
0:24:24my favorite thing is that when you turn it off and the framing is way too high. Yeah!
0:24:29Yeah it's like suddenly it's like you're peeking in from the bottom of the screen hello! It
0:24:33looks like bring your child to work day. Yeah I don't know what they were thinking about
0:24:38that it's the way it's framed. It's so weird because it's not, you know, it can see my
0:24:45whole body or at least my whole, you know, sitting in a chair upper half when it's in
0:24:50center stage mode. But when I turn it off, it's like, no, I can only really see up to
0:24:54your, you know, from your nose up. It's like, well, why did that, why was that chosen as
0:24:59the off crop for this display? It seems so strange. And of course there's no setting
0:25:03'cause a nice thing you could do is say,
0:25:06when I turn it off, here's what I want the crop to be,
0:25:09or at least, or give me a little UI
0:25:10where I could sort of drag out.
0:25:12I don't wanna use center stage,
0:25:13but I wanna choose what my crop is.
0:25:15That's the beauty of having this wide angle lens
0:25:18is that you could actually sort of choose.
0:25:19No, it's just gonna give you your eyes
0:25:23and your head, top of your head, that's it.
0:25:26So it's, I don't get it.
0:25:28- Kind of like it's a comparison.
0:25:29If I use the webcam on my iMac,
0:25:32It's almost kind of like it's looking down on me a little bit,
0:25:35but I still see my head and most of my shoulders.
0:25:37If I turn off or like I open Photobooth because center stage doesn't work there,
0:25:41it's basically like just three quarters of the top part of my head is all you see.
0:25:47It's like, "What is going on?"
0:25:49Like, it's just such a weird, very high crop that it's taken here.
0:25:52Because I don't know what they do.
0:25:54Very weird.
0:25:56You know, look, I share the same thoughts as most people out there,
0:26:01reviewers, listeners, Apple is doing just a very bad job of front facing cameras in
0:26:06their computers and I kind of can't believe we're still having this conversation.
0:26:11It's just not acceptable anymore.
0:26:13They have to do a better job, especially on something like this, when there is room.
0:26:20I understand the argument a little bit more for the laptops because they're really thin.
0:26:26These monitors are thick.
0:26:28you could put a lot of hardware in there if you wanted to. They've just chosen not to.
0:26:33Whatever they're prioritizing to deprioritize the camera, I'm very confident it's the wrong
0:26:38decision today.
0:26:39Yeah, I think they've been giving a lot of feedback about that, which is good, because
0:26:42that is one way that they change things. I have a couple of theories. One is, and I know
0:26:46I talked about it before, I wrote a Macworld column about it, I think they get caught up
0:26:50in reusing their tech, and so they had the center stage camera from the iPad, and they're
0:26:55"Oh, people love it, I'm gonna put it in this $1600 display."
0:26:58And maybe the context of a computer display,
0:27:03people had higher expectations for quality.
0:27:05And also that they chose, they prioritize,
0:27:10and again, I can argue this
0:27:11'cause I really like center stage
0:27:12and in most of my lighting conditions,
0:27:14the camera looks fine, but here's the thing.
0:27:16They could have put, let's just say it,
0:27:19they could have put a 4K webcam in there
0:27:21and they prioritize center stage
0:27:23'cause they're like, "Yeah."
0:27:24you know, actually the lower quality camera
0:27:26with center stage is better because we think it's better
0:27:30or because we invented it
0:27:31or because our plan is to reuse this
0:27:34or, and I think this is a theory that might be true,
0:27:37we're gonna save the more expensive part
0:27:39for our more expensive display that we sell for $2,500,
0:27:44'cause I think maybe that product is coming.
0:27:46And that this is the bottom of the line display.
0:27:51But I agree with you that
0:27:54I think the reaction shows that Apple's assumption
0:27:59that the center stage camera would be good enough
0:28:02in this context was probably wrong
0:28:06or at least a little misguided
0:28:08and that a lot of people expected something better
0:28:12and that it was the wrong trade off to make.
0:28:14Now I really like center stage
0:28:15and I'm glad that it's on the Mac,
0:28:17but and I'm a little mystified why a 12 megapixel,
0:28:21like a 12 megapixel camera facing you,
0:28:25that's like, that should be really good, right?
0:28:29But it's, something is going on here.
0:28:31And I know it's a wide angle,
0:28:33so it's grabbing a lot of pixels
0:28:34that it actually can't use most of the time.
0:28:36And that's part of their decision-making process here.
0:28:38But yeah, whether they got caught up
0:28:42in their own excitement about center stage
0:28:44or whether they're actually withholding a better camera
0:28:47for a more expensive product,
0:28:49I think I would argue that that would be a mistake too,
0:28:51because this is a $1600 display
0:28:53and you really ought to prioritize that.
0:28:55And I mean, I'll throw in the heap, Myke,
0:28:58the Apple's, I get the laptop limitations,
0:29:02but yeah, on the iMac and on this display,
0:29:05I also am disappointed about the fact
0:29:06that we have Face ID on iPhones and iPads
0:29:10and they haven't done that on the Mac either.
0:29:12And that's also disappointing.
0:29:14- Last thing I wanted to mention is the speakers,
0:29:17they're pretty good,
0:29:18but it kind of doesn't really matter to me.
0:29:19I'm just happy to have speakers on my monitor again, I guess I didn't.
0:29:23On my OG display I didn't have speakers.
0:29:26So if I wanted to play any audio I would either plug in my AirPods, I would play it very quickly
0:29:31on my closed laptop, which actually was better than I would have expected it to sound.
0:29:36The speakers on the MacBook Pro are so good they break through the closeness.
0:29:41Or I would use AirPlay to my HomePod Mini.
0:29:45None of those are as good and as useful as just having good speakers built into the display,
0:29:49which I didn't have on the display that this replaced.
0:29:52So yeah, I would say all in all, for me,
0:29:55this was worth waiting for,
0:29:56and I'm really happy with this product.
0:29:59It is not perfect, but it does most of the things I need
0:30:03better and/or to my level of expecting
0:30:06with just a few things that they've fallen down on.
0:30:09But honestly, with the camera being the main issue for me,
0:30:13I expected that.
0:30:14- Yeah, and it shows,
0:30:15and this is the thing that I think gets missed.
0:30:17ATP did a good segment about this
0:30:18where they've tried to explain like why the retina resolution
0:30:23matters to some people and why if you're in the Apple ecosystem
0:30:26having an Apple built monitor that sort of looks nice
0:30:29and fits in with stuff and is tested to work.
0:30:33So you plug it in and things charge and things work
0:30:36and all that like there is value in that.
0:30:38And this is I wanted to do a little tangent
0:30:40about the reviews of this product
0:30:42and the subjectivity of reviews in general
0:30:44because a bunch of these reviews are,
0:30:48but there are other monitors that are cheaper,
0:30:52which totally misses the point
0:30:53that this monitor is filling a niche
0:30:55that previously only the ultra fine filled.
0:30:58And I would prefer a world
0:31:01where there was lots of stiff competition
0:31:03to make displays at the resolution
0:31:07that Apple has defined as a retina resolution for the Mac.
0:31:11And the problem is there isn't,
0:31:14there just isn't, nobody else did it.
0:31:16There's just the ultra fine.
0:31:18And now this product is there and it is an Apple product.
0:31:20And it is better in a lot of ways than that ultra fine,
0:31:23which wasn't that much less expensive than this product.
0:31:26And that has a value and it doesn't matter
0:31:30if you care about that stuff,
0:31:32it doesn't matter that you could buy a cheaper monitor
0:31:35that's at a lesser resolution
0:31:37because that's not the product you want.
0:31:39And that's not your preference on this.
0:31:42Also, I find perplexing some of the reviews that complain
0:31:45that this monitor isn't another product that doesn't exist.
0:31:49Quinn Nelson recently did a video
0:31:53on his Stasi Labs channel about this display.
0:31:58And it's largely him complaining.
0:32:01And Quinn is great.
0:32:02I love him, I love his videos,
0:32:03but that video is basically,
0:32:05why isn't this a $2,500 micro LED display?
0:32:09which I would argue, that's a good question.
0:32:11That would be an interesting product.
0:32:15Apple may be making that product.
0:32:17There are rumors that Apple is making that product.
0:32:19That said, this is not a $2,500 micro LED display.
0:32:23It's a $1,600 display.
0:32:26And at least personally,
0:32:30it doesn't change the fact that a whole lot of people
0:32:32have been falling over themselves to buy this display
0:32:35because it fills a need
0:32:36that has been so poorly filled for seven years
0:32:38when Apple said, "We're getting out of the business
0:32:39"and we're just having LG make a monitor."
0:32:41And that literally is the only one
0:32:43that kind of fills all of these needs
0:32:45other than the $6,000 display.
0:32:47A lot of us, and I'm speaking for myself here too,
0:32:51if they made a $2,500 micro LED display, I wouldn't buy it.
0:32:56Not spending that money.
0:32:59I'm not gonna, I'll buy a $1,600 display
0:33:01and I have $2,500 display, something like that
0:33:04with the cutting edge tech in it.
0:33:06- Yeah, I know how nice it would look for my needs.
0:33:11I'd really rather have a $900 cheaper display
0:33:15that is this display.
0:33:17And if you boil it down beyond that,
0:33:20what you end up with is essentially the argument
0:33:22that I wish it was cheaper,
0:33:24which you can make about literally
0:33:25every Apple product ever made, which is like, yes.
0:33:28Would I rather that this monitor be $1,000?
0:33:31Sure, that would save me $600.
0:33:34- I would like it to be 10, just $10.
0:33:37- It should just be bundled with the studio.
0:33:39You get buy one, get one free.
0:33:41And again, like you can make that argument,
0:33:45I wish Apple stuff were cheaper.
0:33:47People have been making that argument
0:33:48literally since Apple started and guess what?
0:33:51Apple isn't gonna make it cheaper for you.
0:33:53They're not, they just, they'd like money
0:33:56and they know people will pay extra for the Apple stuff.
0:33:59And so they will, and that's what this display is.
0:34:01So in the end, I think a lot of these reviews
0:34:03are basically like, I can't believe that Apple people
0:34:07are so focused on Apple's level of design and quality
0:34:11and the resolution of the display,
0:34:13that they're willing to spend $1600
0:34:15when they could buy something that is lesser,
0:34:18but it's stuff that, you know, whatever for cheaper.
0:34:21And I don't know, it's kind of the classic
0:34:24Mac versus PC argument, which is all this stuff
0:34:28that you guys care about, I don't care about.
0:34:31And so why are you buying this thing?
0:34:33You're dumb or you're cultists or you're suckers
0:34:36that have been conned by Apple's marketing.
0:34:38And I'm not saying that if you don't want this display
0:34:42and if you like those other displays,
0:34:44there's anything wrong with that.
0:34:45I know a bunch of people who have non-Apple,
0:34:47non-ultra fine external displays with less resolution
0:34:50and they're fine with it.
0:34:52That's fine.
0:34:53I have a problem with somebody looking at a product
0:34:56that a whole lot of us have really, really wanted.
0:34:59And yeah, we wish it was a little bit better
0:35:00and yeah, we wish it was a little bit cheaper,
0:35:02but it fills a thing that has not been fulfilled
0:35:04really by anything for seven years
0:35:07and say all the stuff that you care about doesn't matter
0:35:11just by a cheap display.
0:35:13Because what kind of argument is that?
0:35:15And that is a function of some of the reviews
0:35:18of this product that I don't appreciate
0:35:22because they are discounting things
0:35:25that some of us care about.
0:35:27And just the existence of a cheap monitor
0:35:30does not mean that everybody should run out
0:35:31and buy a cheap monitor.
0:35:32This is, I wish there was competition for Apple,
0:35:35don't get me wrong.
0:35:36I want somebody to make this display
0:35:38or a version of this display and sell it for $800
0:35:41and totally undercut Apple.
0:35:43But guess what?
0:35:43Apple tried that seven years ago, didn't happen.
0:35:46So this is what we're left with,
0:35:48is something from Apple that does everything
0:35:50that Apple promises that it does
0:35:52other than maybe the center stage should have been better.
0:35:55But like you get what I'm saying?
0:35:57It's like it is the Apple monitor.
0:35:59And yes, it does cost more than we wanna pay
0:36:02just like everything else Apple makes.
0:36:04I'm glad it exists and a lot of people are very glad
0:36:08that it exists and we'll buy it.
0:36:10And the existence of cheaper monitors
0:36:13that don't do what this monitor does, doesn't change that.
0:36:18The imagination of a dream monitor
0:36:22made of cutting edge technology
0:36:24that costs another 1000 or $1,500
0:36:27doesn't change what this product is.
0:36:29So I think you can be critical of some of the choices Apple made in this product, but
0:36:33I think that there are a lot of people who go beyond that and start to say, "Well, why
0:36:37would you ever buy this when you can just buy a $600 Dell monitor and be fine?"
0:36:41It's like, "Okay, yeah, I could buy a HP laptop for $500 too, but I don't."
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0:39:20and you'll get 25% off your membership as fitbod.me/upgrade for 25% off. Our thanks
0:39:26to Fitbod for their support of this show and Relay FM. So your studio, max studio mounting system
0:39:35came in, right? Your new shelf? Is that what it's called? It's a system. It's quite a system. It's a
0:39:40plastic or I got a loose site. I don't know what it is. Acrylic, let's say. This is the
0:39:48newer technology new shelf dual mount for the Apple Mac Mini 2010 to current. It is currently
0:39:57available only one in stock because –
0:39:59I think we've done a run on this.
0:40:02Yeah. And it's – they said more coming soon, which I think is interesting. Available
0:40:08normally $44.99, currently a cyber saver for $24.75. Probably by the time you hear this,
0:40:13they'll be sold out of this. Basically, Otherworld Computing made a thing that was
0:40:18the size of sort of two Mac minis because they sell a bunch of newer technology branded
0:40:24mini-sized hard drive enclosures and stuff like that so you can make a stack. I used
0:40:28to have a mini-stack hard drive that my Mac Mini sat on. And so they made this acrylic
0:40:35thing, and it basically is the size of these two-stack Mac Minis, and it has four holes
0:40:40and screws, and you screw it under your desk, and then your Mac Mini is under your desk
0:40:44with that hard drive attached. And guess what? It fits the Mac Studio. Not perfectly, it's
0:40:49got a hole in the bottom, and the idea there is that there's the little bump on the bottom
0:40:53of the Mac Mini and it will sort of like drop in and it's a little too small for the Mac
0:40:58Studio to drop in but it's fine. It fits fine. It's got little tabs on the back. Stephen
0:41:03Hackett was really concerned that if you tried to plug in something on one of the front ports,
0:41:06all you would do is shoot your Mac Studio out the back end and that there are little
0:41:12tabs there to kind of hold it in place so it doesn't do that. But it's completely open
0:41:17on the front and the back and there's enough space in there for there to be actually some
0:41:22airflow on the sides as well and the top. And so I bought one just to try it out and
0:41:27I put it under my desk and that's where my Mac studio is now. It's actually under my
0:41:30desk toward the front so I can plug into the front ports or put a card in the SD card slot.
0:41:36I can reach behind and press the power button if I want to do that. It's all kind of reachable
0:41:41if I just kind of lean over a little bit. It's nice. Somebody sent me a link to somebody
0:41:48who is making a 3D printed max studio under mount and it looks nice because it's gonna
0:41:57be to the exact specifications of the max studio. It is 3D printed so it's like it's
0:42:04gonna be a little kind of textured plastic thing which is fine. What I really would like
0:42:10to see so I've got my USB interface audio interface in something that's made for like
0:42:15I don't even know what, some PC something,
0:42:19but it's like a little metal shelf.
0:42:21And that's what I'd really like to see,
0:42:24is somebody to make a,
0:42:26and these are undoubtedly already being fabricated,
0:42:28but like a metal version of what OWC did for the Mac mini,
0:42:33that is exactly the size of the Mac studio,
0:42:38or with some room, but fits it.
0:42:40And the ones that are out there on Amazon today
0:42:41are all a little too big or too small,
0:42:45'cause I think a metal one would make me feel better
0:42:47than this acrylic one, but it seems perfectly stable
0:42:50and it works.
0:42:52It's funny 'cause it's not the product it's meant for,
0:42:54but it does work.
0:42:56And I would be shocked also if OWC wasn't working already
0:42:59on like a new version of this
0:43:01that actually fits the Max Studio.
0:43:05But in the meantime, they are making hay
0:43:08with the new shelf dual mount that they made years ago
0:43:14and have been selling discounted.
0:43:15And it's suddenly more relevant than it was.
0:43:18I also expect that somebody like 12 South
0:43:21is gonna come up with a bunch of Mac Studio accessories
0:43:23at some point that are also very nicely designed
0:43:26and a little more expensive maybe than you'd like,
0:43:28but they're so nice that you end up buying them anyway,
0:43:30'cause that's their bit.
0:43:32But yeah, it's great.
0:43:33It's so nice.
0:43:34You talked about your desk layout.
0:43:37After a couple of weeks with a Mac Studio on my desk,
0:43:41I really like that it's under my desk now.
0:43:44My desk just feels that much more open
0:43:47and there's really only two cables running under my desk
0:43:50or running over my desk.
0:43:52There's the power cable for the display.
0:43:54And then there's the Thunderbolt cable
0:43:55that goes from the display to the Mac studio,
0:43:57which at the moment is running forward
0:44:00over the front of my desk,
0:44:02because it's the Apple one that's only a meter long
0:44:04and it can't go the other way.
0:44:07So I also bought a two meter long Thunderbolt cable
0:44:10for way more money than I would like.
0:44:11- For a million dollars?
0:44:13- Yeah, for $10 million.
0:44:14- Wow, $10 million.
0:44:16- Yeah, but it's really good.
0:44:17It's really good.
0:44:18And so I'm looking forward to
0:44:21when I get the thesis mount display next week,
0:44:24and I'm gonna be able to run those two cables
0:44:26over the arm and everything else will be hidden away.
0:44:30I'm looking forward to that.
0:44:31That'll be great.
0:44:32But in the meantime,
0:44:33it has been fun to get that thing under my desk
0:44:36where it feels like it belongs.
0:44:39The sheriff of Rheumerville, Mark Gurman,
0:44:41is reporting that Apple is currently working
0:44:43on building an entire infrastructure
0:44:46to provide financial services.
0:44:48This would include, quote, "Payment processing,
0:44:50"risk assessment for lending, fraud analysis,
0:44:53"credit checks, and additional customer service functions
0:44:57"such as the handling of disputes."
0:44:59This adds even more weight to our discussion
0:45:01about credit kudos last week,
0:45:03not being for the Apple card, but for something else.
0:45:07Mark mentions that this effort is focused on future products
0:45:11rather than Apple's current lineup of services.
0:45:15- Right, there is this one, you know,
0:45:17this idea that they're going to convert the Apple,
0:45:19the iPhone upgrade program, which is a loan,
0:45:24and then you can, you know, it's structured that way
0:45:27into a service that would be administered by Apple
0:45:31where you'd pay a monthly fee.
0:45:32- And there's also this like pay-in-for installments thing
0:45:35which apparently is coming too.
0:45:37- Right, because that's very, very popular, right?
0:45:39That's a trend that I know we haven't discussed it,
0:45:42but these services that allow you to pay
0:45:45four monthly installments instead
0:45:48that are very popular with the Youngs,
0:45:50that Apple's gonna build its own version of that too.
0:45:54And this is all, I know we talked about this
0:45:57a little bit last week, but like,
0:45:59this is exactly what you would expect from Apple,
0:46:02even though this is an area where you're like,
0:46:03really Apple's gonna build financial products?
0:46:06It's like, yeah, but what is this really?
0:46:07This is Apple starting something by finding partners
0:46:11and then realizing all the strengths and weaknesses
0:46:13of the partners and saying,
0:46:15we could build our own version of this
0:46:17and keep it all in house.
0:46:18And they apparently are doing that.
0:46:21They're gonna build their own financial structure.
0:46:24We joked about it with the Apple card,
0:46:26but now I'm really wondering,
0:46:27can the bank of Apple be far behind?
0:46:30even if nobody can get an account at the bank of Apple,
0:46:34it would not surprise me if Apple just continues
0:46:36to build things and requires--
0:46:38- If you have all the money in the world,
0:46:41you might as well do something with it.
0:46:42Yeah, what else are you gonna do?
0:46:44Just start using that cash to secure against lending.
0:46:47Like, why not, you know, go for it.
0:46:49I don't know what this is gonna look like, honestly.
0:46:51Like, you know, obviously I can read what Mark has said,
0:46:53but like, do I imagine them to actually have bank accounts?
0:46:57Like, I don't know.
0:46:58- No, I mean, I wouldn't.
0:47:00Although, in some ways, Apple Cash is kind of that.
0:47:05Also, I'll point out Apple Cash only in the US still, right?
0:47:09And I wonder if some of this is,
0:47:11they use the US as a test ground and they're like,
0:47:13"Okay, if we wanna build this out,
0:47:15"we can either partner with different partners
0:47:16"in all these different countries,
0:47:18"or we could just do it."
0:47:21And it makes me wonder if that's part of this too,
0:47:23is that they're just gonna roll it out
0:47:25and they're gonna take care of getting in every country
0:47:28and rolling it out instead of finding partners
0:47:30and having negotiate.
0:47:31It's probably hard too, right?
0:47:32To find a willing partner who is willing to do
0:47:35what Apple demands of them.
0:47:36- It's harder though, Jason, to get banking licenses.
0:47:39So I don't really know what their plan is.
0:47:42- It is, but it depends on what licenses are required
0:47:44to do what, but yeah.
0:47:45- Or what they wanna do, yeah.
0:47:46- It's true.
0:47:47And that's the case.
0:47:49It was the case with their carrier rollouts too, right?
0:47:51The advantage they had there is that they had a product
0:47:53everybody wanted.
0:47:54So yeah, I don't know.
0:47:56It's fascinating.
0:47:57it seems like they really got to the point
0:47:58where they realized there was a bunch of stuff
0:48:00that they felt either they could make more money
0:48:04doing it in house or that they were things that they,
0:48:06the products that they could not easily create
0:48:09by working with partners.
0:48:10And so they've decided to just go ahead
0:48:12and build some financial services functionality inside.
0:48:17Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what form it is.
0:48:19- Never discount Apple's allergy
0:48:21towards working with other companies as well, right?
0:48:24- Oh, absolutely.
0:48:25I think that's number one on the list, right?
0:48:26which is we have to use a partner.
0:48:30And like, if you see the benefit of using a partner,
0:48:33it's different, but there's also this feeling,
0:48:35and I suspect this happens a lot at Apple,
0:48:37which is, "Oh, we have to use these guys.
0:48:40They're slow, they don't think like us.
0:48:42They keep trying to do shifty stuff that we don't like."
0:48:44You know, it's just, it feels like a very much
0:48:47what we would expect from Apple,
0:48:50which is that they'd rather go it alone if they can,
0:48:52if they think that it's important.
0:48:54And this is the thing is I think they've decided
0:48:56that the financial aspect of what they're doing
0:48:58is so important that they really ought to own
0:49:00as much of it as they can.
0:49:02- Audio Hijack 4 is available now.
0:49:05- It is.
0:49:06- I know you've been very excited about this
0:49:08over the last few months
0:49:09and you've been up to all kinds of shenanigans.
0:49:11Do you want to give the upgrade as a little overview
0:49:13of what's new in Audio Hijack 4?
0:49:15- Yeah, so Audio Hijack 4, it's an update.
0:49:17I think the last version of Audio Hijack
0:49:19was released a long time ago.
0:49:20It was like 2016, something like that, Audio Hijack 3.
0:49:23So it's been a while.
0:49:25This is a paid update.
0:49:26I don't know exactly what the paid upgrade price is,
0:49:28but it's an update and it's big.
0:49:33So there's some stuff that's just about the look and feel.
0:49:37It looks a little different.
0:49:38It's got a light mode to go with its dark mode
0:49:40that it always had.
0:49:41- It is $29 to upgrade, $64 to purchase out.
0:49:45- It is my favorite audio utility on the Mac.
0:49:48It has a new master session list
0:49:50that's way better than the old one.
0:49:51The old one was a bunch of squares.
0:49:53The new one is a compact list that shows you
0:49:56what is being captured for each item
0:49:59and shows you the current status of each of those sessions.
0:50:02And there's a button there to turn them on and off.
0:50:04So you can like fire off different sessions
0:50:06from right within that window.
0:50:07It's a way better and more useful window.
0:50:10And then there's also a corresponding menu bar item
0:50:13that shows you all the same things.
0:50:16And you can, and like most UI elements in Audio Hijack 4,
0:50:20they're all popovers with a tear off.
0:50:22So if you want the menu bar to be on screen all the time
0:50:27as a floating window, you can basically tear it off
0:50:31and have it just floating on your screen.
0:50:33Yeah, and you can do that with any item.
0:50:35Like if there's the live stream one, the broadcast block,
0:50:38you wanna have that visible all the time,
0:50:40you can just tear it off and have it visible all the time,
0:50:44which is pretty great.
0:50:44- I like the sound of that.
0:50:45- Whole bunch of stuff like that.
0:50:46- So say I haven't upgraded yet.
0:50:48I would have had to upgrade today
0:50:49and I didn't wanna do it before the show.
0:50:51I mean, you really give the show its name if you did that,
0:50:54but it's probably unsafe.
0:50:55- That is, it seems like a bad upgrade.
0:50:57- It seems you should test it first.
0:50:59- Yeah, I want to just make sure
0:51:00I've got all my stuff set up properly.
0:51:02'Cause I'm going to tinker with things, right?
0:51:03So I don't want to tinker with things
0:51:05and then not set up my recording block
0:51:06and then just don't record the show.
0:51:08- That would be the bad upgrade.
0:51:09- Bad upgrade, this is good upgrade.
0:51:10- This is the good upgrade.
0:51:12They have a couple of new plugins,
0:51:14which if, you know, they have a compressor
0:51:16and a magic boost, and these are things that like
0:51:17to level out the audio,
0:51:19especially if you're live streaming,
0:51:20If you, you know, one person's louder
0:51:22and one person's quieter and all that,
0:51:24you try to level it out.
0:51:25But one way you can do that is by using a plugin to do that.
0:51:28And AudioHijack didn't offer that.
0:51:31So you would have to get an external plugin,
0:51:32a third party plugin to do compression and all that.
0:51:35Now, AudioHijack has rolled those in.
0:51:36So if you're doing a live stream,
0:51:38you can put the compressor block before the broadcast block
0:51:41and have it flatten everything out and it sounds better.
0:51:45And then Magic Boost is like a compressor,
0:51:46but it only makes it louder.
0:51:48It makes quiet things loud.
0:51:49It doesn't make a lot of things quiet.
0:51:51So you choose how you want to use those,
0:51:53but those are like having a compressor
0:51:55and there's a big deal.
0:51:55It was really a missing piece in version three.
0:51:58And while you could add it using a third party plugin,
0:52:00it's kind of nice that it's just part of the app.
0:52:03- I use something called AU multiband compressor.
0:52:06What is that?
0:52:07- Yes, that is an Apple audio unit that comes with logic.
0:52:10- Okay.
0:52:12- Yeah, so it's a third party.
0:52:15I mean, it's Apple, but it's like a non audio hijack
0:52:18- Audio unit, yeah.
0:52:19I've swapped in compressor for my third party plugin.
0:52:22I think I was using Core Presser
0:52:23and I'm just using the compressor.
0:52:25- Yeah, we had a lot of trouble for a long time
0:52:28where I was always quieter than everybody else
0:52:31before Audio Hijack offered their live streaming.
0:52:33We used to use NiceCast
0:52:35and it was just really hard to do it.
0:52:37And then when Audio Hijack did their thing,
0:52:40I could use this compressor,
0:52:41but I still have to tinker with things a little bit,
0:52:43boost my audio and stuff like that.
0:52:45So I'm looking forward to trying that out.
0:52:48And let's see, manual connection mode is another big one
0:52:51that people requested.
0:52:52And this is, so the interface AudioHijack has,
0:52:55it's super clever.
0:52:57Krista Murgen designed it for AudioHijack 3,
0:52:59and it's super clever.
0:53:01It's blocks, little blocks, and you arrange them,
0:53:04and it kind of goes left to right,
0:53:06and it's like a flow chart,
0:53:07and you see the connections between the blocks.
0:53:08And if you want them to connect differently,
0:53:10you move the blocks around,
0:53:11and you just watch as the connections get made,
0:53:13which is great.
0:53:14Except if you have very particular connections
0:53:18you wanna make, sometimes you end up playing
0:53:19this kind of unpleasant video game
0:53:22where you have to move things around.
0:53:24And like, if I move it down here, does that,
0:53:25nope, that doesn't work.
0:53:26If I move it over here, oh, I need to move all these things
0:53:28to the left a little bit in order to get this thing
0:53:30to the right so that it wires up correctly.
0:53:32So it's a really great feature that I've used all this time,
0:53:36but I also accept the fact that sometimes
0:53:38it can get very complex where you have to move things around
0:53:42in space, essentially, in order to get them to connect right.
0:53:45and you're like, I just want these two things to connect.
0:53:48Why don't they connect?
0:53:49And the answer is now there is manual connection mode.
0:53:52So when you go into manual connection mode,
0:53:53you can literally like click on one block
0:53:56and then click on another block
0:53:57and it makes a connection between them.
0:53:59- This was one of my biggest feature requests personally.
0:54:02Like, yeah, 'cause now, 'cause I,
0:54:05my audio hijack windows are a certain physical size
0:54:08that they don't need to be.
0:54:10They could be smaller.
0:54:10Like I could actually make the window smaller,
0:54:12but then I can't see all of the blocks.
0:54:14So, but if now with the manual connections,
0:54:17I can compress everything much physically smaller
0:54:21because I don't need there to be so much space
0:54:23between everything.
0:54:23So they don't accidentally attach to each other.
0:54:26- Right, exactly.
0:54:27And you can also set it up in automatic mode
0:54:29and then flip into manual connection mode
0:54:31and edit it a little bit.
0:54:32So you can like do, if you want to,
0:54:34you can have it do the automatic work first
0:54:36and then you can fix it and it's all fine.
0:54:39And then when you flip back out of manual connection mode,
0:54:41it rewires it.
0:54:42So don't do that.
0:54:44But you can keep it in manual connection mode forever
0:54:47if you want to.
0:54:48And that's part of it.
0:54:49And for people who want more control, they can do that.
0:54:52And then the big thing,
0:54:53the reason that I got so excited about this
0:54:55is that Audio Hijack 3 had literally no scripting
0:55:00or automation support of any kind
0:55:02to the point where I was desperately trying to automate
0:55:05some of my podcast recording stuff.
0:55:06And I was doing these things
0:55:08where it's like a keyboard maestro macro
0:55:10that opens Audio Hijack and looks at the window
0:55:13and tries to detect what's in the window
0:55:15and what's in the menu bar.
0:55:17And based on that, is it recording or not?
0:55:19And can I open by double clicking in the window,
0:55:23I can open a session
0:55:24and then I can press the recording button.
0:55:26It was really bad 'cause it was all based on
0:55:28looking at what was in the menus
0:55:30or trying to look at literally the pixels on the screen.
0:55:34It's not great.
0:55:35I got it to work sort of, but it was not great.
0:55:37And then part of the not greatness of it
0:55:39was that it couldn't easily tell the current status.
0:55:42Like, is this block actually recording or not?
0:55:45'Cause just pressing a button,
0:55:48if it is recording and it presses the button,
0:55:50it stops the recording
0:55:51and it wouldn't easily know the status.
0:55:53It got very complicated.
0:55:55It was very painful.
0:55:56Well, version four, they're scripting.
0:55:59Is the version, is the story.
0:56:01They're scripting.
0:56:01They built a JavaScript control system.
0:56:05There's a JavaScript API.
0:56:06So, and there's even a scripts window inside audio hijack.
0:56:10So you can do things like when you start a session,
0:56:12run this script, or when you stop a session,
0:56:15run this script.
0:56:15And they've got some samples.
0:56:16There's some very clever ones.
0:56:17Like if you stop a session and there's a recording
0:56:21that's like less than five seconds long,
0:56:22throw it in the trash, which I really like,
0:56:25'cause sometimes I'm testing stuff
0:56:26and I'll end up with all these little audio files
0:56:28and you can actually just say, no, no, no,
0:56:30just throw this away.
0:56:31I don't need short recording files.
0:56:33I only want the long ones.
0:56:36So that's all in there,
0:56:37but it's not just accessible from within the app,
0:56:40it's accessible from outside.
0:56:41And it turns out there are a couple of ways
0:56:43it's accessible from the outside.
0:56:44One of them is you can have a JavaScript script
0:56:47in a text file and tell AudioHijack to open it
0:56:52and it runs it.
0:56:53And there's a preference by the way,
0:56:54there's a security preference you have to turn on
0:56:56for some of the, for external scripts to run.
0:56:58So if you're concerned about that,
0:57:00they made a checkbox that you have to check
0:57:02in order to turn on this feature.
0:57:03But that means that like anything like a shell script
0:57:06or an Apple script or whatever could write out
0:57:08a JavaScript command and then have it open.
0:57:11And it's a little circuitous, but it totally works.
0:57:14And then the other way, shortcuts.
0:57:15So shortcuts on the Mac debuted right as they were,
0:57:18I think, starting work on AudioHijack 4.
0:57:21They knew it was coming.
0:57:22They, I think, probably had been working
0:57:25on their JavaScript stuff internally.
0:57:26And I think JavaScript is probably the way to go.
0:57:28I mean, a lot of apps these days,
0:57:32That's the scripting, internal scripting language
0:57:35that they're adopting.
0:57:36It'll work on iOS, it'll work on macOS.
0:57:39Omni uses it for all their scripting now.
0:57:41I don't love JavaScript, but everybody knows it
0:57:44and can get around in it and it's fine.
0:57:48But they added shortcut support
0:57:50and they have three shortcuts actions right now,
0:57:53which is not enough, by the way, but it's a start.
0:57:56And the shortcut actions are start or stop a session,
0:58:00run a script that's in the script window in Audio Hijack,
0:58:05or run this JavaScript,
0:58:07where you can literally just put the JavaScript text
0:58:10in the shortcut action and say, run this.
0:58:13And from that, you can do almost anything
0:58:18because you can turn sessions on and off.
0:58:21You can turn blocks on and off.
0:58:22You can get information back.
0:58:23Is this session running?
0:58:25What session is running?
0:58:26You can ask it for information and get information back.
0:58:30And then you can, once you've got the state information,
0:58:32you've got a lot of power to do automation.
0:58:34So that's all great.
0:58:35- Yeah, I would say one can do anything, you know?
0:58:38- Well, yes, not you personally.
0:58:40And this is my complaint about it.
0:58:42And I think this is the starting point.
0:58:44And I think that Rogue Amoeba is going to
0:58:47look at what people do with this
0:58:50and figure out where they need to go from this.
0:58:52But there are a lot of one, two, three line JavaScripts
0:58:57that do things in that you can get information
0:59:01out of shortcuts, right?
0:59:02But you have to do them as these little JavaScripts.
0:59:06And I think that's where they're missing a piece
0:59:09that they need to add is they need to take a whole bunch
0:59:12of common things that you might want to get out
0:59:14of Audio Hijack and make them individual actions.
0:59:19And even if all that's happening behind the scenes
0:59:22is that you're firing off things
0:59:23into the JavaScript interface, not everybody,
0:59:26First off, not everybody is comfortable with JavaScript
0:59:29and I'm not even comfortable with JavaScript.
0:59:32So having them be a shortcut action that says,
0:59:35tell me what's recording right now.
0:59:37Like that's a three line JavaScript,
0:59:40but like wouldn't it be nicer as a shortcuts user
0:59:44if you didn't have to do that
0:59:46in order to find out what was running.
0:59:48And then you build on that,
0:59:50you have other things that are common use cases
0:59:54where they can build an action
0:59:55and roll that action into shortcuts.
0:59:57I'm pretty sure they're gonna get there,
0:59:59but right now, other than turning things on and off,
1:00:03you have to use the JavaScript action.
1:00:06I'm gonna write, I wrote an article on six colors about this.
1:00:10I'm gonna post at some point,
1:00:11some basically like subroutines that you could use
1:00:16that are things like, tell me what's recording right now.
1:00:21'Cause like, I think it's really useful.
1:00:23that gives you back a list of what's recording right now,
1:00:26but that should be built in.
1:00:28They should add all of those.
1:00:30And I'm hopeful that they'll do that in updates as they go.
1:00:33But the good news about this is that
1:00:36because they put that run a JavaScript into shortcuts,
1:00:40if you're willing to get your hands dirty with JavaScript,
1:00:44you can basically do almost anything you want with the app,
1:00:48with a few exceptions.
1:00:49There are some things that are not wired up yet
1:00:50that I think they're also gonna add,
1:00:52like Dan Warren and I were talking about how I'd really like to be able to use the automation
1:00:56to look at my calendar, find out what podcast I'm currently on and update the contents of
1:01:02the live stream to say the name of the podcast because it changes. And you can't change that
1:01:09field in scripting right now. So we'll wait for that one.
1:01:12- You could do that with shortcuts though. You could add in a shortcuts action to do
1:01:17that. - No, but you can't tell using the JavaScript
1:01:21API for audio hijack, you can't say change the name of the broadcast block to this. That
1:01:27part is not accessible right now. So I can do the rest of it.
1:01:30- Shortcut could read it, but it can't write that information out.
1:01:32- Exactly. Yeah, that's my point is that that, and a lot of it's there. You can turn most
1:01:37things on and off. You can flip switches and stuff. You can change the file names, which
1:01:42is kind of cool, but you can't, like there are a few edge cases like the metadata and
1:01:46the broadcast block that they didn't. I imagine that is an update feature that they'll add.
1:01:52But yeah, the big one is the next step they need is to demystify the shortcuts experience
1:01:58because there are a lot of people who are going to use shortcuts who are not comfortable
1:02:02in JavaScript.
1:02:03David Pembroke Me?
1:02:04Tim Cynova Yeah.
1:02:05David Pembroke Because there's some—the stuff I would want
1:02:06to do I think would be pretty simple and I have faith the fact that they've put their
1:02:11foot in this that this is just the first step of it and they'll add more because—
1:02:16I figure they must've known, right?
1:02:18That like, if they did this a little bit,
1:02:20it was just going to get people like me and you
1:02:23saying, "Please continue doing more."
1:02:25Like, I think they're smart enough
1:02:26for a rogue amoeba that they knew that,
1:02:28but this is like, adding this in is the first step.
1:02:32Like, I think it does make the most sense of like,
1:02:34just see what people do with it and et cetera,
1:02:36and then they can write their own.
1:02:39- Right, I think that's gonna be the answer is that,
1:02:41I think they decided rather than making assumptions,
1:02:43and also they wanted to ship this thing, right?
1:02:44So they did the catch all, which is run this JavaScript.
1:02:47And it's, like I said, it's entirely functional.
1:02:49You can do a one line, most of my shortcuts do this.
1:02:52If they send a one line JavaScript to AudioHijack that says,
1:02:56what's the status of this session?
1:02:59It's basically, is this on or off?
1:03:01Or I think it asks like, is it, you know,
1:03:04I think it's, is it on or off?
1:03:06And it say it's running or it stopped.
1:03:08And then my script reacts to that.
1:03:10It's like, oh, well, now I know what the current status is.
1:03:13I will react differently based on that. You can also ask it like, is that block turned
1:03:17on or off or whatever. You have that ability. I think in the long run, they're going to
1:03:22hear from people like me and they're going to get this feedback of sort of like, how
1:03:26are people actually automating with this? And because they created that JavaScript thing,
1:03:31it's like kind of punting on the whole issue. It's like, well, you can do anything you want.
1:03:35You just have to use JavaScript for now. And then over time, they'll realize, okay, these
1:03:39are the ones that we're getting the most requests for. How do you do this? How do you do that?
1:03:43and then hopefully they'll start building out
1:03:44a little shortcuts library.
1:03:46I expect most of the shortcuts actions will be things
1:03:50that are fairly straightforward JavaScripts
1:03:53that basically like, but I don't want to,
1:03:56even as somebody who is using that interface,
1:03:58I don't necessarily want every time I want to do a thing
1:04:01in AudioHijack via shortcuts,
1:04:02I have to go find my shortcut that has that script snippet
1:04:07and copy it out and then go back to the other shortcut
1:04:09and paste it in because I don't remember it
1:04:14off the top of my head.
1:04:15I have to get the terminology exactly right
1:04:17when I would have preferred to just drag in
1:04:18a shortcuts action that says, do this.
1:04:21So we'll see, I think it will progress,
1:04:24but it's a great start.
1:04:26And it's led me to all sorts of wild stuff that I can do.
1:04:29So like I have a generic podcast recording thing
1:04:32that I use for most of my podcasts,
1:04:33which is just this, it's called Podcast Lossless.
1:04:37It records Zoom, it records my microphone,
1:04:39it saves the files to the desktop.
1:04:41And I built up a thing with shortcuts and keyboard maestro,
1:04:44where I have a button on my stream deck,
1:04:46and by default, when it's not recording,
1:04:49it's actually the audio hijack logo,
1:04:53which has got a black background.
1:04:54And when I press it, it starts recording,
1:04:58and it turns the button into like an orangey red
1:05:03active state, like I'm recording now,
1:05:07and I can look down and know that I'm recording.
1:05:09And then when I press it again, it toggles it back off.
1:05:13And that's a fairly simple automation, but it's great
1:05:17because it's basically given me a one button record
1:05:19and it knows the state.
1:05:21So it is not gonna light that button up
1:05:23unless it knows that it has just turned it on.
1:05:26Whereas all my old stuff was like, press the button
1:05:30and did you just turn it off?
1:05:33Who knows?
1:05:34I don't know.
1:05:35Now it knows.
1:05:36And then I have some more complicated ones
1:05:37that I detail in my Six Colors post
1:05:39where I've got kind of a three-way switch
1:05:40for the incomparable,
1:05:42'cause we have three states for that
1:05:43where you go, you're not streaming live.
1:05:46And then when we turn on the live stream,
1:05:48we're not ready to start yet.
1:05:49People who listen to ATP live have heard this too,
1:05:51where it's like, we're playing like some music
1:05:53in the background, you can't hear us.
1:05:55We're just kind of warming up the live stream
1:05:57while we get our act together.
1:05:59And then you flip the switch and the music goes away
1:06:03and you hear our voices and the recording start.
1:06:06And that's all automated now.
1:06:08It has been for a little while actually, while I'm in beta.
1:06:12So I press the button and we go live with music.
1:06:14I press the button again, same button,
1:06:16and our voices appear and all the recordings start.
1:06:20And then when I press that button a third time,
1:06:23the live stream goes off, our recordings stop,
1:06:25and we're done.
1:06:27And the little button updates along the way too.
1:06:29So lots of possibilities,
1:06:32big and small for automation with Audio Hijack,
1:06:34for podcasters or people who do live events
1:06:37or pretty much anything else.
1:06:40I mean- - You can record
1:06:41like audio from video.
1:06:42I do it all the time with Audio Hijack.
1:06:43- Yeah, video conferencing.
1:06:46If you need to record something or play something,
1:06:48like there's so many different things you could do with this.
1:06:50So yeah, it's great to see it.
1:06:52This is a, I know it's not for everybody,
1:06:55but for me and most of the people I know in the tech world,
1:07:00We use Audio Hijack all the time, every day,
1:07:05to do all sorts of complex and simple tasks.
1:07:08And so having it be connected to shortcuts in any way
1:07:12is a big deal.
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1:09:18Sucks!
1:09:19Jason, I have some updates for you on reader apps, dating apps in the Netherlands.
1:09:26Oh, my favorite things.
1:09:27All of our favorite things.
1:09:29I like reading.
1:09:31I've been to the Netherlands.
1:09:33That's all I got.
1:09:34I guess you liked dating at one point, but that we're done with it.
1:09:37No.
1:09:38No?
1:09:39Okay.
1:09:40Jason never liked dating.
1:09:41Kind of like Apple.
1:09:42And I think Apple likes dating.
1:09:43No.
1:09:44They don't want...
1:09:45Anyway.
1:09:46update to the rules surrounding the dating apps in the Netherlands.
1:09:50So please stand for the reading of the rules.
1:09:53You'd be standing a lot if you were with all of these rules, they keep changing them.
1:09:57All right, so developers will now no longer be required to submit two separate binaries
1:10:03to the App Store.
1:10:05This is previously required that if you wanted to use external payment methods or link people
1:10:10out, you would need to have a version that just used Apple's in-app purchase and then
1:10:15the second version. Now you no longer need to do that. So to read from the developer
1:10:20notes like the update, this change means that developers may include either entitlement
1:10:24in their existing dating app, but still must limit it to use in the Netherlands storefront
1:10:29and on devices running iOS or Apple OS. So that's good, right? That's a good start, right?
1:10:35Because then otherwise you're going to some of these companies are probably even the next
1:10:38five years have gotten themselves into a situation where they had 20 apps that they were updating
1:10:42for every country that requires Apple to do this.
1:10:45- This actually surprises me
1:10:47because I thought this would be one of the ways
1:10:48that Apple would just inflict pain on people
1:10:50who wanted to go outside of their system.
1:10:52But perhaps they felt that they were gonna get in trouble
1:10:54for not being part of the spirit of the ruling.
1:10:57- Jason, I think there's more going on here
1:10:59that we might get to a little bit later on.
1:11:01I don't think that this is,
1:11:02I think this is for nothing other than Apple
1:11:04have worked something out,
1:11:05but we'll get to that maybe in a little bit.
1:11:08They've also softened the language that appears
1:11:10and the dialogue that users see before making a payment with an external provider. They've
1:11:16also changed the requirements for how often it needs to be shown. So it previously stated
1:11:22that this would be required before every transaction. So every time a transaction was going to be
1:11:27required, even though you're going out and paying something new or paying for an in-app
1:11:31purchase or whatever, they would show this sheet every single time. And I'll read the
1:11:34language of it in a minute. But the new rules say each payment flow where the user would
1:11:40make a purchase until the user taps the continue button on a per device basis.
1:11:44Now the way I read that is you only see it once. Once you've seen it that one
1:11:50time, the next time you want to make a purchase, you just make the purchase.
1:11:54Apple don't show you this screen that makes you agree to the fact that you're
1:12:00not going to be using their app payment stuff. I don't know, it's until the user
1:12:04taps the continue button. Well I guess if you could press dismiss. Okay.
1:12:08Because there you have two options to either continue or to not do it and my
1:12:12reading of that is if you say I don't want to do it the next time you do it
1:12:16you'll be shown it again. Oh yeah but once you tap continue on that device
1:12:19you won't get shown it again on that device that makes sense that makes sense. So I
1:12:24had to use the Wayback Machine to get this but the the dialogue used to say
1:12:29this app does not support the app stores private and secure payment system all
1:12:35All purchases in the app will be managed by the developer.
1:12:39Your stored App Store payment method and related features
1:12:41such as subscription management
1:12:42and refund requests will not be available.
1:12:44Only purchases through the App Store are secured by Apple.
1:12:47- This is the, this app may kill you language
1:12:49that we talked about a while ago.
1:12:50- Yeah, we had some real problems with this.
1:12:51I was very upset about this
1:12:53because it's this kind of inherent,
1:12:56like this like implied language
1:12:57that the only secure payments are Apple's payments.
1:13:00- Right.
1:13:01- The modal now says,
1:13:02This app doesn't support the App Store's payment system.
1:13:05All purchases in this app will be managed by the developer.
1:13:09You will no longer be transacting with Apple.
1:13:11Your stored App Store payment method and related features,
1:13:14such as subscription management and refund requests,
1:13:16will not be available.
1:13:17Apple is not responsible for the privacy or security
1:13:20of transactions made with this developer.
1:13:23Big thumb up from me.
1:13:24- Much better.
1:13:25- Way better.
1:13:26- It's not this app will kill you.
1:13:28It's like Apple has nothing to do
1:13:29with what you're about to do.
1:13:30Good luck.
1:13:31- Also, by the way, refunds?
1:13:33Apple, you don't do those.
1:13:35That's not a thing, but it's funny to me that it's in there.
1:13:38There are weird ways in some places.
1:13:41- You can't request a refund from developers though.
1:13:43You have to request it from Apple.
1:13:44So they're saying this is a feature, right?
1:13:46Which is like, look, when you subscribe with Apple,
1:13:49you have a subscription management page
1:13:50with all your subscriptions.
1:13:51And when you ask for a refund for an app,
1:13:53you do it through Apple.
1:13:55Now you're gonna have to go to the developer to do it.
1:13:57But it's this much better.
1:13:58- You may actually have more luck at getting that refund,
1:14:01which is a funny thing, 'cause Apple do not like it.
1:14:02- Yeah, this is much, much better language.
1:14:04- Way better, it's much more factual and clear, right?
1:14:07And it's not suggesting like something wicked
1:14:10with this way comes, right?
1:14:11Like it's like it's not doing well.
1:14:13- This app may not kill you.
1:14:14- Yeah.
1:14:15(laughing)
1:14:17Obviously there have been no changes to the 27% fee.
1:14:21So Apple is gonna be enforcing on developers
1:14:24and the items that use this.
1:14:26There's no changes on how Apple requires reporting
1:14:29or any changes to the audit rights
1:14:31that Apple has on the developer,
1:14:33all of that I still have a big problem with.
1:14:35And to round out this part with the Netherlands,
1:14:39currently Apple's fines for not complying with the ruling
1:14:42given by the Dutch regulators have passed 50 million Euro
1:14:46because they've been charging them 5 million a week.
1:14:49As of recording, 'cause usually there's been,
1:14:52like these fines get added every Monday,
1:14:55it happens sometime on Monday or Tuesday.
1:14:58they listen to upgrade and then they do it.
1:15:00- And then they do it, like we remind them.
1:15:02'Cause it actually genuinely happens not too long
1:15:06after we finish recording, which is a funny time
1:15:08for the Netherlands really, 'cause it's, anyway,
1:15:10like it's past the end of the work day.
1:15:13But a couple of days ago, the regulator gave a comment
1:15:16to TechCrunch saying that they will evaluate this proposal
1:15:19from Apple to see if it meets their rules.
1:15:22- Ooh.
1:15:23- I actually am not even sure if a lot of this is
1:15:26to meet the rules. But again, we'll get to that in a bit because there's also, Apple's
1:15:31very busy, they have finally released the guidance around the external linking for reader
1:15:37apps that was agreed as part of a deal with the Japan Fair Trade Commission back in September
1:15:422021. I cannot believe it was that long ago, six months ago. So this is all intended to
1:15:49be just for managing or creating accounts, right, with reader apps. So these are your
1:15:55Kindles, your Netflixes, that kind of thing.
1:15:59Some of the stuff that they showed, of course, there was a modal dialogue when you click
1:16:02one of these links, which says you're about to leave the app and go to an external website.
1:16:07You will no longer be transacting with Apple.
1:16:09And then it's basically the same stuff as before about subscription management, refund
1:16:13requests, et cetera, et cetera.
1:16:16I got some helpful -- luckily, The Verge went through a lot of this stuff and I was able
1:16:23to crib from them.
1:16:24thank you to Mitchell Clark at The Verge,
1:16:25Apple have a list of requirements
1:16:27that apply to the link itself that they give,
1:16:30that someone will click.
1:16:31The link must open in a browser,
1:16:33it cannot open in an in-app web view.
1:16:36- Yep.
1:16:37- There is no additional data or parameters,
1:16:40like tracking stuff that can be passed to the website,
1:16:43and your app cannot contain text
1:16:45explaining how much things on your website will cost,
1:16:48which I guess means you can charge whatever you want, right?
1:16:52So it can be cheaper on the website,
1:16:54but you just can't say it.
1:16:56- You can't say it.
1:16:57I think this is, so initial thought for me was,
1:17:01wait a second, one link seems like a waste
1:17:06and no additional data or parameters seems like a waste.
1:17:10But here's the thing, the way this will functionally work
1:17:14is that it will go to a page that is the page
1:17:17that you go to when you come from the app.
1:17:20The first thing it's gonna do is have you log in
1:17:23and then it's gonna display whatever is relevant.
1:17:27- But you can also create, this wouldn't just be login.
1:17:29- Or create, logging in or creating.
1:17:31The point is, what you're going to do
1:17:34is end up in a state, at least potentially,
1:17:38where Safari on your device is logged in on that page.
1:17:43So this is less onerous, I think,
1:17:49than I originally thought,
1:17:51because the smart services will,
1:17:56once you're logged into that page,
1:17:57you can display whatever you anticipate
1:17:59people coming from the app will see.
1:18:01So in the end, you're probably gonna get a tap here,
1:18:05like I'm in the Kindle app and I'm logged in
1:18:07and I tap here and it'll display my purchases
1:18:10or it'll display things I wanna buy.
1:18:14What it doesn't get you is I'm looking at a particular book
1:18:17and I want to buy it and then I tap
1:18:20and I go to that book page on Amazon
1:18:21because that's not allowed.
1:18:22But you can tap and go and get your account page
1:18:27and go from there.
1:18:29So it's not terrible because it's not like it's opening,
1:18:34not knowing anything of who you are
1:18:35to the homepage of the website,
1:18:37but it's also not allowing the passing of data
1:18:40for things like, so you want to buy this book,
1:18:44tap here to go to Amazon's page for this book
1:18:47where you can buy it.
1:18:48It's not, that part is not allowed.
1:18:50- Well, here's the thing.
1:18:52Remember that one link thing?
1:18:53Like as you mentioned the one link.
1:18:55There is no reference to one link
1:18:58in this entire documentation from Apple.
1:19:01Now, I think there's a reason for this.
1:19:05They actually explicitly say you can provide multiple links
1:19:09for different use cases or languages.
1:19:11- Okay.
1:19:12- I think what they are, we're trying to get across
1:19:16And what they're still trying to get across is,
1:19:19is that there's only really the use cases
1:19:21that they are permitting,
1:19:22which is create a new account, manage that account.
1:19:26And you have to provide every link to them to review.
1:19:30And it has to meet, like in every place you're putting it,
1:19:35and they will also review where it's going to.
1:19:38And then Apple have, they haven't,
1:19:40again, they don't really seem to have stated
1:19:43too much about what's required on the web pages,
1:19:45but I'm sure that's like a,
1:19:46we'll have that conversation with you, you know?
1:19:48Like I imagine there'll be a bit of two and throw.
1:19:52'Cause there's not gonna be a lot of companies
1:19:53that will be able to take advantage of this, right?
1:19:57It really is gonna be mostly the companies you would expect.
1:20:01There aren't gonna be a lot of small companies, I think,
1:20:03that are gonna be able to really use this
1:20:05to any great effect.
1:20:06- No, there aren't a lot of small companies
1:20:08making reader apps, to be clear.
1:20:09- Exactly.
1:20:10But the original announcement stated one link.
1:20:14the phrase one link is not mentioned anywhere
1:20:17in this documentation.
1:20:18- Obviously they got feedback that there are lots of,
1:20:21but what about this, but what about this?
1:20:22We've got two different kinds of things that happen
1:20:24and we have different languages and we can't pass data,
1:20:27so how do we do that?
1:20:28And so Apple seems to have said,
1:20:30well, you can support multiple links
1:20:32as long as there are four different use cases
1:20:35or languages, as you said,
1:20:37and then we have to approve them.
1:20:39What it doesn't mean is, again, I can't tap on a book
1:20:43can go to that book's page on Amazon,
1:20:44because that is, they're not gonna approve a link
1:20:47for every single book.
1:20:49And really what they're saying there is
1:20:51that is passing data or parameters.
1:20:55And that's not allowed.
1:20:56It has to be a generic request.
1:20:58It can be a generic request for,
1:21:00this is for my account options,
1:21:01or this is my sign-in,
1:21:03or this is I have a problem,
1:21:05or whatever the use cases are,
1:21:07but not for like individual transaction items.
1:21:11They're not gonna let you do that.
1:21:12which is what, you know, that's what Amazon would prefer, right, is the Kindle app could
1:21:16show you, you could search for books in the Kindle app and find a book you want and tap
1:21:21and it would open Safari to that page with a big fat Buy Now button and you can't do
1:21:26that in this scenario.
1:21:28So remember at the moment both the Dutch dating app thing and the reader app thing, the reader
1:21:35app thing is worldwide even though it was just a decision with the Japan Fair Trade
1:21:38Commission they applied it worldwide. I'm actually not sure why. I guess this is just
1:21:42to appease the large companies that they're dealing with here and for whatever reason
1:21:47Apple doesn't care about Match.com. It's just like you would just do this in the Netherlands
1:21:52nowhere else. Remember this is an entitlement that they have to apply for and then you get
1:21:57to do certain things and entitlements is a little bit above my pay grade but it's like
1:22:01you are granted the ability to put something in your application that ties into a private
1:22:07API that other people are not allowed to use.
1:22:10This is the same with CarPlay, this is how CarPlay works.
1:22:12But there was a note in the documentation that says, "Apple is developing a new external
1:22:17link account API that will provide the in-app modal sheet.
1:22:21Once this new API becomes available in a public release of iOS and iPadOS, you will have 30
1:22:26days to adopt it with the next update of your app.
1:22:29In the meantime, you will need to build this modal sheet by following exactly the design
1:22:32specifications provided below."
1:22:34- So I have a couple of questions about this.
1:22:37Why are they not just waiting until this is available?
1:22:41Right, because we've already waited six months.
1:22:42Like what, you know, why not?
1:22:45Why are we doing this like impromptu,
1:22:48sorry, just like intermediate step?
1:22:51- Fines, fines I think is the answer, right?
1:22:54- Well, but this is separate to the Dutch things.
1:22:56- To the Dutch dating, but I think this is
1:22:58so that Apple can say, look, you can do it now.
1:23:01We're not holding anyone back.
1:23:03It is Apple demonstrating something
1:23:05that they have not demonstrated up to now in some ways,
1:23:08which is them saying, look, okay,
1:23:10but it's gonna take time, we have to do a whole thing,
1:23:11we have to build an API.
1:23:13And now what they're saying is, look, we're building an API,
1:23:16but don't say we're dragging our feet.
1:23:19If you wanna replicate what our guidelines today, go ahead.
1:23:23Replicate our guidelines today without the API,
1:23:26and you could do it and we'll let you do it.
1:23:28But we're also gonna work on a thing
1:23:30that's a lot easier to implement.
1:23:32but if you wanna replicate it in the meantime, go ahead.
1:23:34We're not standing in your way.
1:23:36And I think that that is a posturing thing,
1:23:38not necessarily about Dutch dating apps,
1:23:39but it is a posturing thing to regulators to say,
1:23:42we're not dragging our feet here.
1:23:45You can do this today,
1:23:47but you're gonna have to do the work.
1:23:50We're doing the work for you, that's not ready yet.
1:23:53You can do this today.
1:23:55And I think that's clever in some ways
1:23:58'cause it's Apple basically saying, don't blame us.
1:24:02And also Apple knowing it's unlikely that the spirit of,
1:24:08I don't know about the spirit.
1:24:12When a judge says, like in the Dutch dating case,
1:24:16do this Apple, what they're saying is Apple be permissive.
1:24:20And what they're not saying is Apple,
1:24:23you will immediately furnish the thing you like to furnish,
1:24:28which is a bunch of developer APIs.
1:24:31That's not what they're saying.
1:24:32They're saying be permissive.
1:24:34And this is Apple saying, we are permissive now.
1:24:36You can do this, here are the rules, done.
1:24:39We worked on, all that we really need to do
1:24:41is give you the rule book.
1:24:42We also are gonna do an API for developers
1:24:45that's gonna be good, but we're not standing in your way.
1:24:48And I think that that's,
1:24:49I think they're sending a message, right?
1:24:51Which is, you know, we're, anyone who wants to do this now,
1:24:55we are gonna let you do it now.
1:24:56We're not gonna let our implementation of the API
1:25:00be the gating factor.
1:25:02And so don't blame us and say, we're dragging our feet,
1:25:06even though they were dragging their feet.
1:25:08- Yes.
1:25:09- So it gets them out of the way of that.
1:25:11- Yeah, I, you know.
1:25:13- And they're saying within 30 days
1:25:15after we release the API,
1:25:16you gotta rip out all the work you did
1:25:18and then use our API anyway.
1:25:19But in the meantime, you can do this.
1:25:21But like that feels very much like a message to the courts,
1:25:25which is, we heard you, you don't like us waiting
1:25:28for the API.
1:25:29- This is so funny to me, right?
1:25:30Where it's like, they came up to this deal six months ago,
1:25:33and now they've released the entitlement ability,
1:25:36but as soon as they come up with this API,
1:25:37they will require everyone to do it within 30 days.
1:25:40- Yes, rip it right out.
1:25:41- And I just find that so funny, right?
1:25:43Like, we'll take as long as we want, but.
1:25:45- But again, it's the letter in the spirit, right?
1:25:48It's them saying, oh, we're not standing in your way.
1:25:51If you do a bunch of extra work,
1:25:53and then rip it out later, you can do it right now.
1:25:55But I think that is, you know,
1:25:58I think that a lot of courts might look at that,
1:26:01or regulators and look at that and say, okay, fair enough.
1:26:04Like, because the argument here is like,
1:26:06should Apple have to furnish Amazon
1:26:10with all the code to do this?
1:26:13Like, if Apple didn't wanna ever do an API for this
1:26:15and posted the guidelines,
1:26:17would that be contrary to the spirit
1:26:19of what's being asked for here?
1:26:20I would say it wouldn't be.
1:26:22It's not, Apple doing an API for it
1:26:24is really not part of the regulation.
1:26:26The regulators aren't saying you must provide an API.
1:26:29They're saying you must allow people to do this.
1:26:32And so Apple is splitting the difference a little bit,
1:26:35but it is saying, look,
1:26:36we're not standing in the way of doing it now.
1:26:37Here are our rules, we will agree to this,
1:26:40but we will do an API because that's the best way forward.
1:26:44And that will ultimately allow Apple to completely control it
1:26:47and not have to patrol what these, you know,
1:26:50API mirroring things are in the meantime,
1:26:55but it's just, I think it's a fascinating,
1:26:58a little bit of strategy where it sort of is removing
1:27:00the waiting time for the API from the equation
1:27:03in terms of an impatient government or judge
1:27:07looking at Apple saying, come on now, like, come on,
1:27:09you're just, you know, you're just delaying here.
1:27:12You're just stalling.
1:27:13They're like, no, no, no, people who wanna do it now
1:27:15can put in the work and do it now.
1:27:16We'll be here later.
1:27:17- Yeah, when I read this, I was like,
1:27:19I wonder if this is part of a few things, you know,
1:27:23like to different APIs for new systems here.
1:27:28- I like this approach.
1:27:33I mean, within the context of Apple's dealing
1:27:36with these regulations, I like to see Apple doing this
1:27:39because I do think it's a smart move for them to say,
1:27:42'cause okay, first off,
1:27:43Apple wants to build an API for everything
1:27:46and they wanna have a whole system
1:27:47and they wanna have it be measured and careful
1:27:49and consider it and put it out for developers and say,
1:27:52"Here's the right way to do things."
1:27:54And it turns out the courts just want Apple to move.
1:27:57So how do you reconcile those two things?
1:28:02This is the answer,
1:28:03which is Apple can do rule book real fast,
1:28:06not like not fast in real world terms, but in Apple terms,
1:28:09they can come up with a rule book a lot faster
1:28:12than they can roll out an API
1:28:13and a shipping version of the OS.
1:28:16So this is their way of dealing with that,
1:28:19is build it today if you want, we'll have an API later.
1:28:24When we do the API, you gotta adopt it, we're done.
1:28:26- But overall, I would say the language
1:28:29that they've landed on, vastly better
1:28:33than where they were before.
1:28:34- Oh yeah, yeah, they're not,
1:28:36and again, I wonder, like you were saying,
1:28:38I wonder what happened behind the scenes here, right?
1:28:41I wonder if somebody somewhere on the outside,
1:28:44I doubt it was on the inside.
1:28:46On the outside, it was like,
1:28:47you gotta stop with the scare language.
1:28:50That's, we're not happy with you trying to dissuade users.
1:28:55It needs to be neutral language.
1:28:57Somebody somewhere said that.
1:28:58- I assume they just got a lot of pushback, you know,
1:29:00like from people in the media, like me and you,
1:29:03and many other outlets, and also the developers
1:29:06that they're writing this stuff for.
1:29:08It's just like, this is too much.
1:29:09You've gone too hard, like way too hard.
1:29:11You gotta pull it back a little bit, you know?
1:29:13- Yeah, well maybe, but my guess is that maybe-
1:29:15- Just dripping with spite, you know?
1:29:17- Maybe there's somebody in one of these areas
1:29:21where Apple is negotiating with them about like,
1:29:23is this enough, is this enough, said,
1:29:26we want neutral language.
1:29:28This is not neutral.
1:29:29And maybe they paste it in a bunch of links
1:29:31to like the Verge and other articles saying,
1:29:34see, everybody agrees, you're really,
1:29:36this is, you're trying to scare people.
1:29:38And that's not what we are asking for.
1:29:40We are asking for you to have neutral language.
1:29:43can state the facts about your subscription thing and your refunds. You can state the
1:29:47facts, but to imply everything but you is dangerous is not neutral. So I just, I mean,
1:29:57maybe I'm being cynical here and they decided themselves that this was better language,
1:30:00but I don't think so. I think they got, I suspect that somebody told them, you can't
1:30:05do this. You must be more neutral than this, but the net result is the same, which is the
1:30:10language is better. They're not telling you the app is going to kill you. They're just
1:30:12saying you're leaving Apple.
1:30:14And that's what it should be.
1:30:16And again, I applaud the idea that they're gonna make
1:30:18the behavior available faster
1:30:22and not make everybody wait for the API.
1:30:25Because if I was a judge on one of these cases
1:30:28and Apple said, well, okay,
1:30:30we'll put it in our internal process.
1:30:32And in September it'll be available for people.
1:30:35I would be like, nuh-uh, I told you now,
1:30:39and I'm willing to be reasonable here,
1:30:40but I'm not gonna give you six, nine months, a year
1:30:44to drag your feet on this.
1:30:46And so their new policy here seems to be
1:30:49better in that regard too.
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1:32:47Relay FM.
1:32:48Let's finish out today's episode with some #AskUpgradeQuestions.
1:32:54Got a couple of studio display related questions just thought would be a nice bookend for today's
1:32:59episode.
1:33:00asked this one to me, Jason, it says, "Myke, given your recent escapades of Apple support
1:33:05with your screen technology technicalities of AppleCare Plus," this is my very scratched
1:33:11and I believe cracked iPhone, which Apple said is not cracked and they won't replace
1:33:15it even though I want to pay them with my AppleCare Plus. They said, "Did you spend
1:33:20the extra on AppleCare Plus for your studio display?" And I will say, "No, Sekou, I didn't
1:33:24because I have pledged to myself that I'm never getting AppleCare again."
1:33:27- Interesting.
1:33:28- Not gonna do it anymore.
1:33:30- I never, Myke, you know, I never buy AppleCare.
1:33:33- Yep.
1:33:34- I bought it on the studio display.
1:33:35- Fair enough.
1:33:37- I decided that if there was ever an Apple purchase
1:33:39where I was like, I don't know,
1:33:41I kind of want them to have a lot of time there.
1:33:45I've changed, I used to decline on everything,
1:33:47extended warranties and all of that.
1:33:49And I found that I'm now targeting certain technologies
1:33:54and product types where I'm like,
1:33:56I kind of don't trust this product.
1:33:59I'm gonna put a little more in and I never do it,
1:34:03but I did it for the studio this morning.
1:34:06- I've just decided I'm done with it.
1:34:07I've never used AppleCare and I've got it on every iPhone
1:34:10for years and years and years and on all my devices.
1:34:13And the one time I wanted to get a replacement
1:34:16for my very scratch screen, they told me it's not counted,
1:34:19even though I think it should be.
1:34:21So I'm done, I'm done.
1:34:22I'm done with it and I'm not gonna get it anymore.
1:34:25and I'm just going to save the money
1:34:27instead of paying for their Apple Care,
1:34:29and I'll just deal with it myself
1:34:32with getting the repairs done because I'm fed up with it.
1:34:35-I also had that spider that one time,
1:34:36and so I'm really kind of concerned about my displays now.
1:34:39I'd like this display to last a long time.
1:34:41Of course, the Apple Care+ doesn't last a long time,
1:34:43but I did do it for that.
1:34:45I also bought an extended warranty
1:34:48in another product this week,
1:34:50but I'll talk about that at another time.
1:34:52Maybe it'll be an upgrade plus segment.
1:34:54I don't know. - Ooh, interesting.
1:34:56Myke asks, "I never worried about a monitor
1:34:59becoming obsolete before its end of life.
1:35:01With the studio display having an A13 chip,
1:35:04do you think that could be a valid concern?"
1:35:07- I don't. - Okay.
1:35:08- It's just, in the end, it is designed to be a dumb display.
1:35:13I know it's smart, but it's actually designed to be dumb
1:35:15and transparent, and so I don't think it's gonna be an issue.
1:35:17I think you'll be able to plug...
1:35:22I mean, will software updates stop coming for it?
1:35:24Sure, but like a dumb display doesn't get updated either.
1:35:29- Yeah. - Right?
1:35:30It either works or it doesn't.
1:35:31- There'll be some features eventually
1:35:33that you won't be able to use,
1:35:35but that you just won't do those, use those features.
1:35:37Like there'll be new features, like any product, right?
1:35:39- Yeah, so I think it's not gonna be a big deal.
1:35:42I think you'll be able to use this for a long time
1:35:44and it will be fine.
1:35:46I think people will be using these displays.
1:35:46- It is a good question though, right?
1:35:48'Cause it is different to imagine
1:35:49like a computer inside the monitor.
1:35:52Like that is a different, is a very different thing.
1:35:55- Yeah, it's just, I mean, the difference though
1:35:57is that in the end it's all, what's really happening
1:36:00is it's meant to be opaque and it's not like,
1:36:03oh boy, we're gonna update the software to,
1:36:05and as people have pointed out,
1:36:06Apple has had firmware updates for its monitors before.
1:36:10Eventually the display reaches the end of its updating life,
1:36:14but it's still just a display.
1:36:15I mean, of all the devices I have,
1:36:17I still have a bunch of ancient displays around me
1:36:20in this office that all work fine with,
1:36:23even with modern hardware,
1:36:25if you can get the adapters right.
1:36:26And so like, I've got a flat screen
1:36:28that was my first flat screen display at work.
1:36:31Like, I don't even know how long ago that was,
1:36:35a whole long time ago.
1:36:37And I'm looking at it right now
1:36:38and it's plugged into like a Raspberry Pi
1:36:40and it works fine and it'll plug into a laptop.
1:36:43It's not retina and it's very small, but it works.
1:36:45So I'm not concerned about it at all.
1:36:48- And Brian asks, I just realized actually,
1:36:53is firmware because it's in the middle
1:36:56of software and hardware?
1:36:59Is that why it's called that?
1:37:00- Yeah, I think the idea with firmware is that, yeah,
1:37:04it's software for hardware, so it's firm where
1:37:08it's not quite as loosey goosey as software.
1:37:11Yeah.
1:37:14- I find that like a funny, you know,
1:37:16you just never really think about the etymology,
1:37:18like the words, you know?
1:37:19- Right, where it came from, yeah.
1:37:20I know that's absolutely what it is.
1:37:21It's somewhere between soft and hard, it's firm.
1:37:23- That is hilarious.
1:37:25- Tofu wear.
1:37:25- Consistency.
1:37:29Brian asks, do other members of your family
1:37:33have user profiles on your Macs?
1:37:36Or do you have a profile on the Macs
1:37:38of the others own in your family?
1:37:40- No.
1:37:41- No, I don't, no, I don't.
1:37:43- No. - I don't have this either.
1:37:45- Actually, this is not entirely true.
1:37:47When my kids had laptops and they were younger,
1:37:51they had no admin privileges.
1:37:55And so I had an account.
1:37:56- Okay. - And if there were certain
1:37:57things that needed to happen, - I don't think that counts,
1:37:59but I know what you're saying. - They came and brought them
1:38:00to me and said, "Daddy, you need to put in your password now
1:38:03to approve this app that I downloaded."
1:38:05And I'd be like, "Whatever you downloading."
1:38:06But that was part of it.
1:38:08But my son just got a MacBook Pro to take to college.
1:38:11And I set it up with him having a user
1:38:15and I don't have a user on that computer and it's fine.
1:38:18- That would be complicated
1:38:19if you still had all the admin privileges on that laptop
1:38:24that he's taking out of college.
1:38:25That would be difficult for him at some point.
1:38:28- I only had profiles on, yeah,
1:38:29to do parental control kind of stuff
1:38:30and I don't do that anymore, so that's it.
1:38:32- Yeah. - Yeah.
1:38:33- Yeah, 'cause I guess it is a kind of like,
1:38:36that regard is like a parental control or a purchasing thing,
1:38:40like in an Apple family app store thing.
1:38:43Yeah, no, I've never done this and wouldn't imagine it.
1:38:47I think, at least with me and Adina,
1:38:51we have our own computers.
1:38:52We just want to use our own computers, right?
1:38:55And if for any reason one of us needed to use
1:38:58each other's computers, it's not to the level
1:39:00that we need our own user on it.
1:39:02You know what I mean?
1:39:03It's like, I'm just going to use this
1:39:05to search something real quick.
1:39:06I don't now need my own login to this computer.
1:39:09Don't begrudge other people for doing it.
1:39:11Like there is, you know,
1:39:12I've spoken about the fact that at some point in the future,
1:39:15this iMac will become the home computer,
1:39:18like the home, like just live somewhere in the home.
1:39:21We might then have our own users on it, you know?
1:39:25- But we don't have any devices that we--
1:39:26- That are shared computers.
1:39:29- Yeah.
1:39:30- Yeah, so I think that's, I don't have any like that,
1:39:32but this one would at some point become that, so.
1:39:36- But you're right, I wouldn't mind if we positioned
1:39:38and iMac somewhere in the house to have it be.
1:39:41In fact, the nice thing about Touch ID, right,
1:39:43is you can just log in with your Touch ID and all of that
1:39:45and switch to your profile.
1:39:47But no, we don't have any of that.
1:39:48- That even does it. - All laptops.
1:39:49- If someone's already signed in
1:39:51and they put their finger on the Touch ID,
1:39:53it switches, doesn't it? - It switches to them, yeah.
1:39:54- That's so cool.
1:39:55That's such a cool feature.
1:39:57If you'd like to send in a question for us to answer
1:39:59on a future episode of Upgrade,
1:40:01you can send out a tweet with the hashtag #AskUpgrade
1:40:03or use question mark #AskUpgrade
1:40:05in the Relay FM members Discord, which you get access to.
1:40:08if you sign up for Upgrade Plus, go to getupgradeplus.com
1:40:12and you can sign up at $5 a month or $50 a year
1:40:16and you will get longer ad-free episodes of Upgrade
1:40:20every single week.
1:40:23So you get more Upgrade, no ads.
1:40:25It's a pretty great deal, right?
1:40:26- Pretty good, pretty good. - Pretty great deal.
1:40:28- You can hear us talk about a TV show
1:40:30that Myke and I both think is amazingly good.
1:40:33And I'm gonna give you an appliance update too.
1:40:35- If you enjoy this show, you will enjoy Upgrade Plus
1:40:38and you could also be helping support the show too, which we value greatly.
1:40:42Thank you to Fitbaud and Bombas and DoorDash for their support of this episode as well.
1:40:48We greatly appreciate that.
1:40:49But most of all, as always, thank you for listening and we'll be back next week.
1:40:54Who knows if WWDC will be announced by then?
1:40:58Who knows?
1:40:59Seems like an impossibility at this point, but who knows?
1:41:02Maybe they'll just give us seven days notice this time.
1:41:05[laughter]
1:41:07Hey, it's next week!
1:41:09It is late May. The Apple community is whipped into a frenzy.
1:41:12When will WWDC be announced?
1:41:15People will take into the streets with placards that say "The end is nigh."
1:41:19Mm-hmm.
1:41:21We'll be back next time. Until then, say goodbye to your business now.
1:41:23Goodbye, my Curly.
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