0:00:00[Music]
0:00:08From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 378.
0:00:13Today's show is brought to you by Things,
0:00:16Ooni Pizza Ovens, and HPE Tech Talk.
0:00:19My name is Myke Hurley, and I am joined by Jason Snow.
0:00:21Hi, Jason Snow.
0:00:22- Hi, Myke Hurley. - Got a big show today.
0:00:25- There's a lot happening. There's a lot.
0:00:27It's busy, busy, busy time, busy time in the busy time
0:00:30of the busy time.
0:00:31- Jason has had a 14-inch MacBook Pro for a week,
0:00:35and we're gonna be talking about it in a little bit.
0:00:38But we have some things that we must get to first,
0:00:40including our #snowtalk question,
0:00:42which this week comes from Mark, who asks,
0:00:44"Jason, what do you do when you're not really into a book?
0:00:48Do you persevere and finish it?
0:00:50Do you put it aside and come back to it later,
0:00:53or do you just choose to give up and stop reading it?"
0:00:55- A lot of my friends have various policies.
0:00:58I'm not quite sure which one is the most common.
0:01:00There's a 100-page rule. There's a 33% rule,
0:01:03which is good to do in an e-reader.
0:01:05That's basically my policy, too,
0:01:08is that when I get deep in a book,
0:01:10I will often persevere and finish it.
0:01:13But I think the most important thing is that
0:01:15if it's not working for you and you've given it,
0:01:19you know, enough of an opportunity,
0:01:21you've given it 100 pages,
0:01:23or you've read the first third of it,
0:01:25I think you do need to give yourself an out,
0:01:27where you say, "If it's not working for me beyond this point,"
0:01:29and, you know, some people are gonna be like,
0:01:31"Oh, I do it in the first 10 pages."
0:01:32Like, okay, well, everybody's gonna be different.
0:01:35I feel like you need to give a book a little bit of time
0:01:38before you declare it dead.
0:01:42But I did have that happen fairly recently,
0:01:44where I was, yeah, I forget where I was halfway
0:01:47or a third of the way through the book,
0:01:48and I just said, "This isn't working for me,"
0:01:49and I dumped it.
0:01:50It happens, and it's okay,
0:01:52'cause life's too short to force yourself to read a book
0:01:55you're not enjoying.
0:01:56And I notice it most because they're books that are a slog,
0:02:00and then I get into a next book, and it just is,
0:02:02I wanna read it, and I pick it up all the time,
0:02:04and I'm reading it avidly.
0:02:06And like, you can tell when you're enjoying a book
0:02:09and when you're not.
0:02:10So I would say if you don't have this policy,
0:02:12you should make this policy.
0:02:13Set something, 100 pages, 33%, whatever it is, 20%.
0:02:17And if you're not feeling it and you hit that threshold,
0:02:22bail out, get out of there.
0:02:24Don't do it.
0:02:26'Cause again, I think saying,
0:02:28"Oh, well, it's a good book after the first 200 pages,
0:02:32"which are pretty slow, but then it all comes together."
0:02:34Like, that can be true,
0:02:36but I would argue it's not true very often,
0:02:39and that's the book's fault if it's slow for 200 pages
0:02:44and then it grabs you later that they screwed it up
0:02:46and they should have grabbed you sooner.
0:02:48So there are exceptions.
0:02:51"Dune" just came out.
0:02:53And my standard review of the book "Dune"
0:02:56was that the first 200 pages are really slow
0:03:00and then it picks up and the rest of it is great.
0:03:02And that's true.
0:03:04And I was really bored when I read "Dune."
0:03:06It was the summer, I had nothing to do.
0:03:08And that's the only way I got through it,
0:03:11because while that is actually a good book,
0:03:14it is one that you get about 150 pages in
0:03:19and you think to yourself, "I've made a terrible mistake."
0:03:21So these days, I would just,
0:03:25if it's a random book, book you're not feeling,
0:03:27just get rid of it, just move on, find something new.
0:03:29Set a threshold and then when you reach there,
0:03:32say to yourself, "Do I really wanna go on with this?"
0:03:35And I would say at any point beyond that threshold,
0:03:36by the way, if you're just not enjoying a book,
0:03:38you should just can it and move on.
0:03:40I mean, you're throwing good money after bad.
0:03:44That is a sunk cost.
0:03:46Get out while you can.
0:03:48- If you'd like to send in a #SNELtalk for us to open
0:03:51an episode of Upgrade, just send out a tweet
0:03:52with the #SNELtalk or use ?SNELtalk
0:03:55in the Relay FM members Discord.
0:03:57Upgradeyourwardrobe.com.
0:03:59We have been selling brand new Upgrade merchandise
0:04:03for the past week.
0:04:04Thank you so much to everybody who has bought
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0:04:14Do not forget, you just have one more week to go and buy
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0:04:26Who knows when it will come back if ever?
0:04:28Upgradeyourwardrobe.com.
0:04:31- And this is my independent training company.
0:04:33This is my favorite hoodie.
0:04:34I own like six or seven different independent training
0:04:36company hoodies, unlogoed and a couple with our logo.
0:04:40- Well, I only have logoed ones 'cause we also use them
0:04:44for the cortex ones 'cause they're such good hoodies.
0:04:46- It's a really, I got, this was the first hoodie
0:04:48that I ever was like, oh, I like hoodies now.
0:04:50And then I went to their website and literally just bought,
0:04:54I found they sold direct.
0:04:55You could just get them blank.
0:04:56And I was like, yes, send me all your hoodies
0:04:58because they're so great.
0:04:59And so when we started doing hoodies for Upgrade,
0:05:01I said, please, Cotton Bureau,
0:05:03can we use the independent training company hoodie?
0:05:06And they said, yes.
0:05:07By the way, we got a bunch of size questions
0:05:08and I don't have a great answer other than to say
0:05:12that I wear an XL t-shirt and an XL hoodie.
0:05:15So I feel like the sizes match pretty well,
0:05:18but also it's a hoodie.
0:05:19So I think I feel like better it be a little bit baggy
0:05:22than it be too tight.
0:05:24- I wear large and large and it fits fine for me.
0:05:27- I think it's a pretty good fit.
0:05:28- I think they're pretty true to size.
0:05:29- Maybe that their measurements are,
0:05:31make people overthink it.
0:05:32And I think maybe don't worry about that part of it so much.
0:05:35- Yeah, and all of my hoodies are black.
0:05:37So I'm really excited.
0:05:38We've got the red and the gray ones.
0:05:39I'm gonna be getting one of each
0:05:42because I wanna mix up my hoodie colors
0:05:44and I'm very excited.
0:05:45- So just one last time, upgradeyourwardrobe.com.
0:05:48A couple of product rumor-y things
0:05:52that are going on right now.
0:05:54I just wanted to get them on the record.
0:05:56So according to display analyst Ross Young via MacRumors,
0:06:01Apple is apparently planning to introduce a 27-inch iMac
0:06:05sometime in early 2022 featuring mini LED and ProMotion.
0:06:10This has gotta be an iMac Pro, right?
0:06:13That is not just iMac.
0:06:15- Well, it might be.
0:06:17I mean, I think the high-end iMac
0:06:20is gonna be what it's gonna be.
0:06:22And I still believe that it's gonna be the one model
0:06:27and they're gonna choose what to call it.
0:06:28But it could be that they've decided
0:06:32they're gonna call it iMac Pro.
0:06:33I think that would be great.
0:06:34I think that's what they should do, in fact.
0:06:36I've been really kind of like back and forth on it.
0:06:39But when I look at what they've announced
0:06:41and now having used the M1 Macs and the M1 Pro,
0:06:44I think about what that iMac might look like.
0:06:47And I feel like calling it iMac Pro is probably a good idea.
0:06:52But really the most important thing is
0:06:58I don't think they're gonna make two separate
0:07:0027-inch displays for iMacs, right?
0:07:04Like I think whatever the big iMac is,
0:07:06there's probably only gonna be one display.
0:07:09So, and it will probably be mini LED with ProMotion.
0:07:12So there you go, they can call it Pro or not.
0:07:15- That's why I think it will be Pro.
0:07:16'Cause the only place is where this product,
0:07:19like this screen, the XDR screen, as they call it,
0:07:23Super Retina XDR, is only in Pro products.
0:07:26It's in the iPad Pros and the--
0:07:28- And they have the 24-inch iMac,
0:07:29which is an M1 and is a good product.
0:07:32It's a very good product.
0:07:33And so why not make that bigger iMac Pro?
0:07:36Again, Pro doesn't necessarily mean what it has to mean
0:07:41for the Mac Pro, it just means that it's better.
0:07:43But looking at these chips, it's very hard for me
0:07:46to not imagine that the bigger iMac isn't gonna have
0:07:50at the very least an M1 Pro.
0:07:53- I expect the Macs and Pro chips will only ever exist
0:07:57in Pro branded products.
0:07:58That would be my expectation.
0:08:00- I think that's probably right.
0:08:01And in fact, I was listening to some speculation,
0:08:03I think it was on the ATP last week,
0:08:05that, which I loved, I'm not sure I believe it,
0:08:09but I want to believe, which is that you might actually
0:08:13even see the Jade 2C die, which is basically the 20 core,
0:08:18where it's two M1 Macs together in an iMac.
0:08:23And I thought that would be awesome.
0:08:28Not sure that'll happen, but that would be awesome.
0:08:30- I wanna see if we can try and standardize here, Jason,
0:08:32'cause it's already getting confusing.
0:08:34You said M1 Macs, you meant the M1 Macs chip, right?
0:08:37- I did mean the M1 Macs processor.
0:08:40- So what I've decided, what I've personally decided,
0:08:43you can do what you want, but I'm gonna call it--
0:08:46- Style meeting, everybody, upgrade style meeting,
0:08:48here we go.
0:08:49- M1 Macs chip, M1 Pro chip, M1 Macs chip.
0:08:51- And M1 Macintoshes.
0:08:53- So that could just be M1 Macs is for M1 Macintoshes,
0:08:57everyone will know what that means.
0:08:58M1 Macs chip, M1 Pro chip.
0:09:00And I think that that works fine because it's impossible.
0:09:04- I didn't know what you meant when you said M1 Macs.
0:09:06- It is so bad, it is, okay, so what I'm saying is,
0:09:10they speculated that you might have an M,
0:09:12how should I put this, an iMac that has an M1 Macs chip
0:09:19or potentially the 20 core, which is two of them together,
0:09:26which has been rumored that they're gonna do a two of them,
0:09:29two M1 Macs chip configuration and a four M1 Macs chip
0:09:34configuration, and that's what their Mac Pro solution
0:09:38is gonna be, but in a desktop, you could potentially do that
0:09:41in a desktop.
0:09:42- If they put four M1 Macs chips in one computer,
0:09:45I'm worried that black holes might start forming.
0:09:48- Yes, well, it may happen, it may, imagine if,
0:09:52is a Macintosh with an M1 Macs chip an M1 Mac?
0:09:57Or is it an M1 Macs Mac?
0:10:01- It's Macs M1 Mac, if somebody called Mac--
0:10:06- Who's Mac?
0:10:07- If somebody called Mac has a Mac, is it Macs M1 Macs Macs?
0:10:11- That's plural, so it'd be if Mac has more than one Mac,
0:10:18M1 Macintosh, it's very confusing.
0:10:20- And Mark Gurman reports that he expects no more events
0:10:25this year, which I just feel that in my bones,
0:10:28you know, I just feel like we're done.
0:10:30- Yes.
0:10:32- But also that there will be an M2 MacBook Air
0:10:35with new design, it will be expected sometime in 2022,
0:10:39Gurman says within six to eight months of now,
0:10:41so kind of like first half of 2022, along with new Mac Mini
0:10:46and an iPhone SE expected, as well as that 27 inch iMac.
0:10:51I think that there is a possibility, right,
0:10:54that there could be like an event in maybe March, April,
0:10:57where just all of this stuff comes.
0:10:59- Yeah.
0:11:01Yeah, I also anticipate that we'll be getting this stuff,
0:11:05although again, with the supply chain,
0:11:07everything could get pushed back,
0:11:10but you know, what Gurman reports is really sort of like
0:11:13that these are what are coming,
0:11:14we know what's in the pipeline,
0:11:16but we don't know when they'll get out of the pipeline
0:11:18and into people's hands.
0:11:20It does seem like a new Mac Mini that's using these chips
0:11:25is probably on the way, but my guess is that they wanted
0:11:31to have all the chips for the laptops,
0:11:34that they'll worry about the Mac Mini later.
0:11:37- I hadn't thought of that, but yeah,
0:11:38maybe they were just like, we're gonna prioritize here
0:11:41'cause we're, you know, all of the,
0:11:43there are reports saying that basically Apple's struggling
0:11:45with everything over the holiday season,
0:11:49so they may have just wanted to prioritize
0:11:51what will be a better selling product
0:11:53and a product people are more excited about
0:11:55than if they just then had, you know,
0:11:57a bunch of the putting in the M1,
0:11:58they're just splitting what they have
0:11:59amongst their product line and surely, you know,
0:12:02I would expect make more money from the laptops
0:12:05than they would the Mac Mini anyway, so.
0:12:07- Yeah, exactly right.
0:12:08So I think that now that we've seen the new chips here,
0:12:13it is fascinating to think of like the details
0:12:16of where they're all gonna go
0:12:17and especially about that Mac Pro out there,
0:12:19if they really do just have the ability
0:12:21to take two or four M1 Macs chips
0:12:25and put them in a configuration together,
0:12:27like you can imagine what that performance would be like,
0:12:31it would be pretty amazing.
0:12:32- So both iOS 15.1 and macOS Monterey
0:12:36are expected to be out today.
0:12:38We're not really gonna spend any time
0:12:40talking about them on this episode.
0:12:41- Can't wait to use that universal control.
0:12:44Nope. - Share play?
0:12:45- Maybe not and share play, yeah, not yet.
0:12:48- Not yet.
0:12:50- Next week, we're gonna be talking about Apple's earnings
0:12:54'cause that's happening this week on the 28th.
0:12:56- Thursday, yeah.
0:12:57- So that's gonna be a part of what I expect
0:12:59is gonna be a pretty bumper episode next week
0:13:01because we are also gonna be joined by friends of the show,
0:13:05Tim Millet and Tom Boger from Apple
0:13:07and we're gonna be talking about the M1 Pro
0:13:09and M1 Macs chips.
0:13:11So we've had Tim and Tom on a couple of times now
0:13:14and we always really enjoy talking to them
0:13:16and we always talk about Apple Silicon
0:13:19when we've had them on before.
0:13:21We had a really great chat a couple of months,
0:13:23oh, it's in November, oh man, a couple of months ago
0:13:25I was gonna say, a year ago.
0:13:26- It was November. - In November 2020.
0:13:29Oh my word, what just happened to my brain?
0:13:31So they're gonna be coming back on
0:13:32and we're gonna be talking about
0:13:34all of the new Apple Silicon and what it took
0:13:37to build these incredibly powerful new chips.
0:13:40So that's gonna be next week's episode.
0:13:42- Chip Talk with Tim and Tom next week.
0:13:44- Oh, I love it, I love it.
0:13:45- I got three little pieces of upstream headlines
0:13:49for you, Jason. - Okay.
0:13:50- Mythic Quest has been renewed for two more seasons.
0:13:53- Yeah, there was a question about like,
0:13:54they didn't announce what they were doing
0:13:56after they released season two
0:13:58and season two ends with the feeling
0:14:02that it could be the end of the show.
0:14:03- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
0:14:05- And they made no announcements about it
0:14:08and people were speculating if it was canceled or not
0:14:10and the people who make it have been busy
0:14:13doing other stuff too.
0:14:15But it is renewed for two more seasons
0:14:17and they put out a fantastic video
0:14:20to announce the renewal. - It's so good.
0:14:21I put a link in the show notes to a Vulture article
0:14:23that has this embedded.
0:14:25You gotta go watch the video.
0:14:27It is weird and excellent.
0:14:31It must, I mean, I see this and it's like,
0:14:33Rob McElhenny came up with this.
0:14:34Like, there's no way anybody else came up with this video.
0:14:38It's really worth watching if you haven't seen it.
0:14:40- Yep.
0:14:41- And I was also told about this information
0:14:44during the Ted Lasso season two recap episode
0:14:47of The Incomparable that I joined you
0:14:49and a wonderful panel on which people can go check out,
0:14:52that Jason Segel and Brett Goldstein,
0:14:55teaming up with Bill Lawrence for a new comedy show
0:14:58on Apple TV Plus, and it's about, it's called Shrinking
0:15:03and this is a quote,
0:15:04it revolves around a grieving therapist played by Segal
0:15:08who begins to break the rules and tell his clients
0:15:10exactly what he thinks, ignoring his training and ethics.
0:15:13He finds himself making huge changes to people's lives,
0:15:17including his own.
0:15:19So it seems like Apple is on the Lawrence Goldstein train.
0:15:24- Yeah, yeah, so this is Brett Goldstein
0:15:25and Bill Lawrence writing and Jason Segal starring
0:15:28in this comedy on Apple TV Plus.
0:15:30So for those who thought that Brett Goldstein
0:15:33was having a moment, yeah.
0:15:35- Big moment, he just became a show creator.
0:15:38It's like, it's a big moment.
0:15:39- Just on the side.
0:15:41- Yeah.
0:15:42- Now I make my own shows, incredible.
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0:18:10So, Jason Snell, you published a wonderful review,
0:18:16six colors, about the 14 inch MacBook Pro.
0:18:20Could you just tell me the specs of the machine
0:18:22that you have, just for context?
0:18:24- It's the maximum Macintosh, Myke, with the--
0:18:29- The maximum Macintosh with the M1 Macintosh maximum chip.
0:18:33- Yes, exactly.
0:18:34So it's a 14 inch M1 Macs chip,
0:18:3964 gigs of memory, 32 GPU cores.
0:18:44So all of the things.
0:18:45Yeah.
0:18:47- Couple of little quotes from the article in the beginning
0:18:50that I really like.
0:18:51You call this a new era and say that Apple
0:18:54has undone its mistakes of the past few years
0:18:57and created a laptop.
0:18:58And this is my favorite part.
0:19:00That's essentially a Mac Pro you can slide into a backpack.
0:19:03- It's so good, Jason, that I know exactly what you mean.
0:19:06And it makes me so excited.
0:19:08- I kept looking at the test results
0:19:10and thinking of how to put it in.
0:19:12'Cause like there's the perspective versus a,
0:19:15like I have an iMac Pro.
0:19:17So that's sort of a proxy for the Mac Pro.
0:19:20Mac Pro is more than the iMac Pro,
0:19:21but I don't have a Mac Pro.
0:19:24I have an M1 MacBook Air, right?
0:19:26And so I'm trying to think of the performance,
0:19:29but the truth is it is essentially
0:19:33Mac Pro level performance.
0:19:34And we can debate, is it like the eight, 10, 12, 14, 16.
0:19:39I don't know how many cores you have.
0:19:40There are lots of different core options in the Mac Pro,
0:19:43but like this is in the ballpark of Mac Pro speed
0:19:47in the Intel Mac Pro.
0:19:49And obviously Mac Pro speed is going to be redefined
0:19:51when they do an Apple Silicon Mac Pro.
0:19:53There's no doubt about it.
0:19:54If you imagine that it could potentially be as much
0:19:56as four times faster than this laptop.
0:19:59But it is the, for now,
0:20:04the equivalent of basically a Mac Pro that you,
0:20:07and a Pro, a small Pro Display XDR
0:20:11that you can just close up and put in a bag
0:20:13and walk around and use anywhere on a battery.
0:20:16And that's really what it is.
0:20:19- And it's incredible.
0:20:20I mean, look, I don't think it matters
0:20:22which Mac Pro you're comparing it to.
0:20:25It doesn't matter in my eyes, right?
0:20:27Like if it gets to any Mac Pro, that is a huge deal.
0:20:31This is a laptop.
0:20:33This is a 14 inch laptop.
0:20:34- Yeah, yeah.
0:20:36And I'll point out too, for those who,
0:20:38I think we mentioned it last time, but like you,
0:20:40the specs in my 14 inch in front of me
0:20:43are the same as the max specs in the, sorry,
0:20:46that's maximum specs in the 16 inch laptop.
0:20:51There isn't a bigger configuration
0:20:53that's only in the larger, which I love
0:20:55because not everybody wants a larger laptop,
0:20:58even if they want more power.
0:20:59So there is no difference there, but you're right.
0:21:01Once you're in the zone where Mac Pros live,
0:21:06you are bringing Mac Pro performance.
0:21:08And no, not for everything and not in every way,
0:21:12and not if you've got a high-end configuration
0:21:14of the Intel Mac Pro.
0:21:17Like there are some footnotes that you could put in here,
0:21:20but in the broadest sense,
0:21:25this is basically what we think of now
0:21:28as Mac Pro performance in this laptop.
0:21:30That's what it is.
0:21:31- I wonder if like, just as a curiosity,
0:21:35if the 16 may bench higher
0:21:39on sustained loads of cooling stuff.
0:21:43- It may, it's got, I mean, it's got more power coming in,
0:21:46although I think that's more for the battery.
0:21:49They've talked about how there's going to be
0:21:51a high energy mode on the 16.
0:21:55- High performance mode, is that what it's called?
0:21:57- Sure, okay. - Or something like that?
0:21:59- Whatever, it's the max power, maximum power.
0:22:02- Maximum power for the maximum max.
0:22:04- For the maximum Macintosh max chip.
0:22:07So yes, I wonder if there will be a little bit of that
0:22:11so that the absolute like highest sustained performance
0:22:16or something like that is in the 16,
0:22:17but it's, we're splitting hairs at that point.
0:22:21And if you care enough, then you'll care enough about that.
0:22:25You'll care enough to do a 16.
0:22:26I mean, I'll tell you using Final Cut Pro
0:22:29on a 14 inch display,
0:22:30when I'm used to using it on a 27 inch display,
0:22:33I could see how you might want the 16 inch display, right?
0:22:36Like 14 inch Final Cut Pro,
0:22:39you're like looking at the pixels of the video
0:22:40and you're like, I don't know if I can,
0:22:42like you really kind of want to attach that
0:22:44to an external monitor
0:22:45so that you can do a full preview of the video.
0:22:47And like it is still a laptop screen.
0:22:49It's an amazing laptop screen, but it's still 14 inches.
0:22:52So if you're the kind of person who needs that level of power
0:22:55you may also really want the, and prefer the 16 inch.
0:22:59And again, even though that's a bigger and heavier laptop,
0:23:01you're getting a Mac Pro that you can carry around.
0:23:05So that's pretty good.
0:23:06- While we're on this, before we get into anything else,
0:23:08we should probably, I think we should just continue
0:23:10talking about benchmarks and stuff.
0:23:12You did a selection of benchmarks, Geekbench benchmarks,
0:23:16Xcode, Final Cut, and isotope denoising,
0:23:19and some disk read and write.
0:23:21The disk read and write was the one
0:23:22that surprised me the most.
0:23:25- Well, Apple mentioned it and then they kind of go on.
0:23:27And the way I put it was in this,
0:23:30even in this era of SSDs, right?
0:23:33Like we had that moment where we all transitioned
0:23:35from spinning disk to solid state.
0:23:37And it's that moment where for me, at least,
0:23:40it was the never go back moment.
0:23:41It was when I got a MacBook Air with an SSD in it
0:23:43and it was like, oh.
0:23:45And the truth is having covered computers for 20 years
0:23:50or more, it's more now, it has always been the case.
0:23:56If not all the time, most of the time,
0:24:00and the eras come and go where we get so focused
0:24:04on the computer chips and we forget about the storage.
0:24:07And so often the storage is the thing that slows us down,
0:24:11not the CPU.
0:24:12It's not that you're waiting for your CPU
0:24:14to grind through calculations.
0:24:16It's that you're waiting for the result of the calculations
0:24:18to get saved to the disk and you wait and wait and wait.
0:24:21And that was true in the spinning disk era.
0:24:23But the truth is we got lots of data.
0:24:25SSD speed is now also a thing that you can think about.
0:24:30And SSDs in general are amazing,
0:24:34but I'll tell you doing a save of a big media file
0:24:40on this MacBook Pro was breathtaking
0:24:44because the write speed was three times almost as fast
0:24:49as either my MacBook Air or my iMac Pro SSD.
0:24:55And that's because this is a new generation of SSDs
0:25:00and it's a lot faster.
0:25:05And you can tell, there are moments, right?
0:25:08I mean, there are moments that are constrained
0:25:09by the processor where you click a certain thing
0:25:11or you do a certain thing from menu and you're like,
0:25:14okay, now the processor is gonna chug for a while.
0:25:17And then there are those things you do
0:25:18and it's usually like save.
0:25:21Like I'm gonna save this audio file
0:25:22and it's a three hour long uncompressed audio file.
0:25:26And what it needs to do is it needs to write out
0:25:28the new file while reading the data
0:25:31from either memory or from disk.
0:25:32And it's like a disk based thing.
0:25:35And you do that on the MacBook Pro and you go,
0:25:38oh, that progress bar moved way faster
0:25:43than I expected it to.
0:25:44And that happened a lot.
0:25:45So like my test in here of iZotope, DeNoise,
0:25:48which is interesting because it's an Intel test,
0:25:50it's running in Rosetta and it matched to the second,
0:25:54the score of my iMac Pro,
0:25:56which I'll point out in Rosetta,
0:26:00it matched the score of my iMac Pro.
0:26:02What I didn't mention is the amount of time
0:26:06when I press save and I should have measured it
0:26:09'cause that wasn't close at all.
0:26:11- Oh wow.
0:26:12- Press save and the iMac's like, okay, all right,
0:26:15I guess I'll save this now.
0:26:16And the Mac Pro is like saved, amazing.
0:26:20- I have a theory about that iZotope thing.
0:26:23I wonder if that's just the maximum speed
0:26:25that app can work at.
0:26:27(laughing)
0:26:28'Cause it's too weird to me.
0:26:30- No faster, I can't go any faster than this.
0:26:32- It doesn't really make sense why it would be
0:26:34exactly the same result as the iMac Pro?
0:26:37- I think it's just luck, honestly.
0:26:39I think it's just luck, but it is remarkable
0:26:41that it's getting that speed in Rosetta
0:26:44because of course iZotope still hasn't done a native version
0:26:49but it is, this is why, by the way,
0:26:51that little chart is why I still use an iMac Pro
0:26:55and haven't switched to an M1 Mac to do my job
0:26:57is that you can see that the M1 takes twice as long
0:27:01to do that job as my iMac Pro because of Rosetta.
0:27:06But the MacBook Pro basically has caught up
0:27:09even though it's emulating and translating that code.
0:27:12But yeah, some of the other,
0:27:14like the disk writes and reads are all faster.
0:27:18I did a Final Cut Pro export where I set a project
0:27:20to Steven Hackett on his 12 core Mac Pro
0:27:23and it was faster, but not a lot faster, but faster,
0:27:27like 30 seconds faster at doing that export
0:27:30and a lot faster than the computers that I had here to test.
0:27:34And James Thompson sent me his,
0:27:36he actually sent me last November and I've kept it,
0:27:39but I forgot the password,
0:27:40so he had to tell me the password again,
0:27:42the crown jewels of the Dice by Pcalc 2.0 source code.
0:27:47And that was 18 seconds to build it
0:27:52versus 30 seconds on the M1 Air
0:27:55and 36 seconds on the iMac Pro.
0:27:57So a lot faster.
0:27:59I know the developers out there basically
0:28:01going from an eight core iMac Pro to this MacBook Pro
0:28:04half the time to do a build in Xcode.
0:28:07- There's nothing in this list that I'm not surprised about.
0:28:11Like every single one of these,
0:28:14it's like I expected it all to be really, really good,
0:28:17but like the GPU score,
0:28:2066,688, just like crushing the iMac Pro.
0:28:25- Yeah, and again,
0:28:28I don't have a Mac Pro with the highest test GPU.
0:28:32I should call up John Syracuse and say,
0:28:35run the metal test in Geekbench and tell me what you get.
0:28:37And it may be better, but again, this is a laptop.
0:28:40- This is a laptop.
0:28:41- Yeah.
0:28:42- This is a machine that can produce those scores on battery.
0:28:45- Yeah, that's really the thing here is that
0:28:48I'm sure we're gonna get those stories.
0:28:50You know how sometimes I predict the stories
0:28:51that we're gonna get?
0:28:52Like it was clear that the M1 was gonna have the backlash
0:28:55where people were like,
0:28:56yeah, but it isn't as good as this professional system.
0:28:58It's like, it's not a professional system.
0:29:00We're gonna get the, well, yeah,
0:29:01but it's not as good as this high-end desktop computer.
0:29:05And we're gonna say, well, yeah, but it's a laptop.
0:29:09And that's the point.
0:29:10Like Apple still hasn't done
0:29:11their high-end desktop computers, right?
0:29:13They still haven't gone there yet,
0:29:15but we now have the high-end laptop
0:29:16and we can see that the high-end laptop
0:29:18is as functional basically as their old high-end desktops
0:29:21were, which is a pretty good trick.
0:29:23- I just feel like we are in a once in a generation
0:29:28kind of leap at the moment.
0:29:30Like it really like this doesn't come along
0:29:32very often kind of leap.
0:29:34- Yeah, no, this is that processor transition thing
0:29:37where everything is gonna, the M1 did it.
0:29:39Now we're still in that.
0:29:40And we're gonna be in it again
0:29:42when they do these rumored 20 and 40 core things.
0:29:45Like that's gonna be the era where every,
0:29:47if you compare like to like previous generation
0:29:51to current generation,
0:29:53where you're gonna see these enormous jumps.
0:29:55- Yeah.
0:29:56- And that's, and also, it's not all performance
0:29:59because some of it is the power thing
0:30:01and Apple likes its power efficiency charts and all that,
0:30:04but it's true.
0:30:05That's part of it too,
0:30:06is that they either can fit inside the envelope of a laptop
0:30:11with that kind of power because of the,
0:30:13because they are not using as much energy
0:30:16and throwing off as much heat.
0:30:18That's part of the story too.
0:30:21And then the battery life ends up being extended
0:30:25because of that.
0:30:26- You said in the review that in most instances
0:30:29you were just using the efficiency cores though, right?
0:30:31Which I found really interesting.
0:30:33- Well, when you're doing like computer stuff
0:30:36and not pro work, right?
0:30:38Where I'm hammering the GPU, I'm exporting video,
0:30:41I'm processing multiple audio streams, all of those things.
0:30:44When I'm just looking at the web and checking email,
0:30:48activity monitor showed that basically,
0:30:50'cause remember it only has two efficiency cores,
0:30:52it doesn't have four.
0:30:53So there's this concern that maybe that means
0:30:55that it's gonna have to use those performance cores
0:30:57and it's gonna be a hit to battery life.
0:30:59The truth is Apple, I think profiled regular use
0:31:04and figured that for this chip,
0:31:05they could get away with two efficiency cores
0:31:07and then they spike a performance core
0:31:09kind of when they need to.
0:31:11And maybe we'll talk about this with Tim and Tom next week.
0:31:14- Yes, we're gonna bring it up
0:31:15'cause I'm really interested about that.
0:31:17In my kind of regular use, those performance cores
0:31:22would light up every now and then briefly
0:31:26and then they would stop.
0:31:27But most of the work was happening on the efficiency cores.
0:31:30And I think Apple would make the point
0:31:32that the performance cores are still pretty efficient
0:31:35and the efficiency cores have a lot of performance
0:31:38so they can get away with it.
0:31:41And in practical terms, the battery life,
0:31:43I didn't do any battery testing in part
0:31:45because I had a limited amount of time
0:31:46to do everything that I needed to do for these systems.
0:31:48And also to do a battery test,
0:31:50you basically have to run it constantly
0:31:52for a very long time.
0:31:54And I had a hard time draining this battery at all.
0:31:59It was really hard because you really need to use it
0:32:02extensively and push it all day
0:32:08to really make a dent on it.
0:32:09And I was not able to do that amount of work.
0:32:13So the battery life is gonna be pretty good.
0:32:15And a bunch of people asked about the fans.
0:32:17Fan sound is gonna be different for everybody,
0:32:20sensitivity for fan sound.
0:32:22I used to use MacBook Airs that blew those fans
0:32:24whenever you did anything and it was unpleasant.
0:32:29I think Apple's fan design has gotten better lately.
0:32:33The fans in my iMac Pro are silent.
0:32:36I cannot tell that they're blowing.
0:32:38I have to stick, I literally stick my hand back
0:32:40behind my iMac to the vent and I'm like,
0:32:43oh yeah, warm air is coming out now.
0:32:45That's it, I can't tell.
0:32:47This, you can hear the fan.
0:32:49It was hard for me to get the fans to be audible.
0:32:53I had to really work at it.
0:32:54I had to do a GPU benchmark that pushed the GPU
0:32:58as far as it could go.
0:33:00So it's sort of like, it's a laptop.
0:33:02The bottom gets a little bit warm and then the fan comes on.
0:33:05I'd say the fan is very slow, or not very slow.
0:33:08The fan is very quiet.
0:33:10And it was hard for me to get it on at all.
0:33:14But everybody's gonna be different
0:33:15in terms of their sensitivity
0:33:17and in terms of what they do for their job.
0:33:18But I don't think fan noise is gonna be an issue.
0:33:20I don't think this is gonna be like one of those
0:33:23latter day iMacs with the bad cooling system
0:33:26where they would stick an i9 in there,
0:33:28but they didn't have the iMac Pro cooling system.
0:33:29And so the fans would just be,
0:33:30(imitates fan)
0:33:32in order to cool it all down.
0:33:34I think we're in a different era in terms of cooling
0:33:37and that Apple's fan game is much better than that.
0:33:40So it was not audible, I would say, but not annoying.
0:33:44And even when it was audible was super rare.
0:33:47- I've only ever heard the fans on my iMac,
0:33:50my M1 iMac, like once.
0:33:53And it surprised me
0:33:56'cause I didn't know what the noise was.
0:33:58- Ah. (laughs)
0:33:59- 'Cause I hadn't heard it because I never hear them.
0:34:02- This is, I mean, it is a podcast,
0:34:03but I'll just say if I can do this myself,
0:34:05I would say, I feel like the difference is between a,
0:34:08(imitates fan)
0:34:10and a,
0:34:11(imitates fan)
0:34:13that's sort of, that's my little ASMR for today.
0:34:16- Very nice.
0:34:17- It's not, Apple has done a lot of work
0:34:19on making the fans seem less annoying,
0:34:24but again, it was also hard for me to kick them in at all.
0:34:26So I think they did a pretty good job with it.
0:34:28And keep in mind, I have the highest, the maximum,
0:34:32- Maximum chip.
0:34:34- Maximum max chip.
0:34:36Yes.
0:34:37- How does it feel to hold?
0:34:39Like, what does it, how does it feel when you're using it?
0:34:41What do you think of the looks of this machine?
0:34:44Like, I'm intrigued.
0:34:46- It's different.
0:34:47It reminds me of the titanium from 20 years ago
0:34:50in that the screen is, the back of the screen is flat.
0:34:54You know, the aluminum laptops have had this,
0:34:58a little bit of a curve to them
0:35:01that is more pronounced at the edges,
0:35:03but it's like a little, a little domey.
0:35:06And this is not like that.
0:35:08This is a flat edge or a flat side.
0:35:11And then at the edge, at the back of the screen,
0:35:13a very tight curve.
0:35:15And then of course it's got the round,
0:35:16you know, it's got the rounded edges.
0:35:18When you look at it from top down, the corners are rounded,
0:35:22but the actual edges are much kind of like tighter.
0:35:24The curves are pulled in much tighter.
0:35:26They're not like 90 degree angles, right?
0:35:28Where it's gonna, you're gonna cut yourself on the,
0:35:31on the outside.
0:35:32On the inside, they are more 90 degree angle-ish,
0:35:35although they're not sharp and it's not gonna bother me.
0:35:37But on the outside, they're tighter, I would say.
0:35:42And so it definitely feels different.
0:35:43Also, when you pick it up, you will feel,
0:35:46as you pick it up, you will feel,
0:35:47I didn't mention this in the review,
0:35:48but you can feel the slots 'cause the cooling vents
0:35:53are right there on the sides at the bottom.
0:35:57And so when you pick it up, you will actually feel the vents.
0:36:01They're right there.
0:36:03- That's not been a thing for a while, right?
0:36:04I didn't even really think about those vents.
0:36:07- Yeah, well, they're right there.
0:36:09You can feel them.
0:36:10They're noticeable when you pick it up.
0:36:11I mean, you get used to it,
0:36:12but it's a different kind of feel.
0:36:15And, you know, I think it looks great.
0:36:17It is different, not too different.
0:36:19I think Apple still struggles with the fact that they feel
0:36:22that they can basically, they nailed it
0:36:23and they know what a laptop should look like.
0:36:26And they don't wanna change just for novelty.
0:36:28They're like, they kinda, they figure they kinda got it.
0:36:31And when I did 20 Max for 2020 last year,
0:36:33one of the things I said was that the titanium
0:36:35was sort of like Apple's first moment of like,
0:36:38oh yeah, silver metallic laptop, this is what we need to do.
0:36:41And then they've iterated on that somewhat.
0:36:43This is the biggest change I think in quite a while.
0:36:46It's not that big a change,
0:36:47but I think it's the biggest change in quite a while
0:36:49in that they've changed those curves and those edges
0:36:53and made something that, like,
0:36:57for years now you've been able to look at a Mac laptop
0:37:00closed on a table somewhere
0:37:02and not really been able to detect,
0:37:04unless you look at the ports or something,
0:37:06what year it's from, or if it's space gray
0:37:08and you know that they used to not make space gray,
0:37:10whatever it is, right?
0:37:11But my point is that in the last 10 years,
0:37:14a random Apple laptop, especially a random MacBook Pro,
0:37:18would just, they all look kinda the same, right?
0:37:22And that's what I will say about this one,
0:37:25is you could pick it out.
0:37:27Like in a crowd of Mac laptops from the last 10 years,
0:37:30you see this one, you're like, oh, that's different.
0:37:32That's not like these others.
0:37:33It is absolutely noticeable that it's not the same.
0:37:37And to me, closed, it's because of that flatness of the top.
0:37:42It is striking when you see it.
0:37:46Now, whether people like it or not, I don't know.
0:37:48It's different.
0:37:50I think it's fun because it's different
0:37:51and therefore novel.
0:37:55In the long run, I guess everybody's gonna make up
0:37:58their own mind about how they feel about how they look.
0:38:00- To think about the weight and size of the machine,
0:38:03it is significantly heavier than the machine
0:38:07that replaces the 14.
0:38:08I know you don't have a 13 inch MacBook Pro there.
0:38:10- I don't.
0:38:11I would say as a MacBook Air user,
0:38:13I did not feel like I was super burdened by using it.
0:38:18It's a bigger laptop than my Air, obviously.
0:38:24But it's also a Mac Pro, right?
0:38:27So, and the screen is amazing.
0:38:29So I'm gonna, again, I can't say if somebody's carrying
0:38:33a 13 inch MacBook Pro with four ports around now
0:38:35and they replace it with this,
0:38:37I can't make a judgment on how they're gonna feel.
0:38:41My guess is that it's not gonna matter
0:38:43because even if it's a little bit heavier,
0:38:45it's got that great performance and the great battery life.
0:38:49And so it doesn't matter.
0:38:50But for me, I was surprised that I didn't have as much
0:38:53of the, "Oh, these big laptops kind of feel," as I did.
0:38:57Like when we did our thing where I went to New York
0:39:01and I got the 16 inch MacBook Pro two years ago,
0:39:04that's a beast.
0:39:07Like I was like, "Oh, this giant laptop, oh."
0:39:10And I had to like put it in my bag to carry it home
0:39:12on the plane and like, it was like, "This is so huge."
0:39:15I don't feel that way about the 14 inch.
0:39:17It's good.
0:39:20- You mentioned the screen.
0:39:21Let's talk about the screen.
0:39:22What has been your impression so far with the new display?
0:39:25- You know, in another device,
0:39:28the screen would be the story, right?
0:39:30Like the keyboard used to be the story.
0:39:31The keyboard's not the story anymore.
0:39:32The keyboard is, we haven't talked about it yet.
0:39:35We'll talk about it.
0:39:36It's kind of boring, which in a good way, in the best way.
0:39:39The screen would be the story
0:39:42if it weren't for those chips, right?
0:39:44'Cause the screen, okay, first off,
0:39:46it is extended dynamic range, mini LED backlight.
0:39:51It is a beautiful screen.
0:39:55It looks great.
0:39:56It looks great in the dark.
0:39:57It looks great in dark mode.
0:39:59It looks great with photos.
0:40:00It is, like there were moments
0:40:04where I would be using the laptop
0:40:06and I would get a glimpse of my desktop background.
0:40:09I'd be like, "Oh, right.
0:40:11"Oh, this is a much better screen
0:40:15"than the one I'm used to using."
0:40:17Very impressive.
0:40:20The ProMotion is a mixed bag.
0:40:24Now you and I have gone back and forth
0:40:25about ProMotion on the iPhone.
0:40:28- You enjoy it on the iPad, right?
0:40:30So like, you say you might notice it there.
0:40:32So in theory, you're more primed for this one than me even.
0:40:35- And on the iPhone, my feeling is more just
0:40:38that I prefer the smaller phone to ProMotion
0:40:41if I have to choose, which I do, so I did.
0:40:43But it's a nice feature.
0:40:46On the Mac, what I would say is it's a mixed bag
0:40:48mostly because the software support isn't there.
0:40:52It feels to me like a lot of software support,
0:40:54third-party apps, but also some system stuff
0:40:57is still not there.
0:40:58I was trying to take for our friend, friend of the show,
0:41:01James Thompson, wanted me to do a capture
0:41:03of his dice app running at 120 frames per second
0:41:07on the Mac, and I used, you know,
0:41:11Command + Shift + 5 to do that.
0:41:14And it gave me a movie that ran
0:41:15at less than 60 frames per second.
0:41:18It's like, what are you doing?
0:41:20I'm at 120 now.
0:41:21It's like, well, that system image capture thing
0:41:24doesn't want to do that.
0:41:25Okay, probably should look at that, Apple.
0:41:28But this is true throughout where there are apps
0:41:32and all the Catalyst apps get it, right?
0:41:34Because all the Catalyst apps
0:41:35already had to do this for the iPad.
0:41:37- Right, so that's the difference, right?
0:41:39Like this is all much better handled
0:41:42if you're using the iOS set of technologies
0:41:44than the macOS set of technologies.
0:41:47- Right, and it's not that you can't do it on the Mac,
0:41:49it's that the Mac stuff hasn't had to be adapted for it yet,
0:41:51and the iPad stuff has.
0:41:54And so you open a Catalyst app and you scroll,
0:41:57and it's this super smooth scroll.
0:42:00You open some Mac apps and you scroll,
0:42:02and it's just like, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh,
0:42:04right, because they have made no effort
0:42:06to use the enhanced frame rate.
0:42:08And you can argue like, do you need the buttery scrolling?
0:42:11Well, the answer is you got 120 hertz display.
0:42:14- So yes. - You should use
0:42:14the buttery scrolling.
0:42:16You should do that.
0:42:16- And it's not that it's worse, right?
0:42:18Like it hasn't made it worse,
0:42:20it's just you're not getting the great benefit.
0:42:22- No, the truth is just in some apps,
0:42:24it's super smooth scrolling and stuff,
0:42:26and in other apps, it's not.
0:42:28It's like every other Mac that's ever existed before now.
0:42:31And so what I'm really saying is
0:42:34it's gonna take a little bit of time for Mac software
0:42:38to get to wrap its head around the idea
0:42:41that it now has 120 hertz display built into a computer.
0:42:45It's not like the Mac couldn't output it on 120 hertz before,
0:42:49but it matters more now
0:42:51that you're just selling laptops that have that.
0:42:54And it is nicer.
0:42:55Like again, is it a big deal that in BB edit,
0:43:00when I scroll, it's a little chunky,
0:43:02and that in this random catalyst text editor
0:43:05that comes from iOS, that it is smooth?
0:43:08In the end, it doesn't matter,
0:43:10but it's now so fundamentally part of,
0:43:13I think as of today, part of the Mac experience,
0:43:17and every pro laptop probably from here on out
0:43:19will always have this feature,
0:43:21that if you make a pro app or really an app on the Mac,
0:43:25you should do whatever work needs to be done
0:43:28to take advantage of that frame rate.
0:43:32- What do you think about the notch?
0:43:34(laughing)
0:43:36- You know, the notch,
0:43:40everybody, when that rumor came out that was right,
0:43:43that was like, oh, it's gonna have a notch,
0:43:45at the last minute, everybody was like,
0:43:47oh my God, I can't believe it.
0:43:49And I will tell you after using it for a week,
0:43:52the Mac having a menu bar from day one in 1984
0:43:57is the best thing ever for the people at Apple
0:44:02who had to figure out this display notch thing.
0:44:06Because the display notch and the menu bar,
0:44:10they go together.
0:44:11The whole way it's built is that there's a menu bar area
0:44:16and the notch is in it.
0:44:17And yes, that means that if you've got a lot of menus
0:44:19in your app, they will wrap around.
0:44:21And in fact, the lead screenshot in my review,
0:44:24if you look carefully, it's a very pretty picture
0:44:27of a MacBook Pro with a satellite picture on the desktop.
0:44:31And if you look up in the menu bar though,
0:44:32you'll see BB edit and you will see a couple
0:44:35of the menu items on the right side of the notch.
0:44:38Because they didn't fit on the left side.
0:44:42So that will happen.
0:44:43I think Apple's got a little bit of like,
0:44:45it makes some attempts to fit things in
0:44:47and shrink things up a little bit to fit them
0:44:49on the left side.
0:44:50But if they can't do it,
0:44:51they pop them over to the right side.
0:44:52It's not great.
0:44:53But in general, all the content is down below
0:44:57the menu bar area.
0:44:58And that is a 16 by 10 rectangle screen.
0:45:02You go into full screen mode,
0:45:03your app goes into that space.
0:45:06The menu bar, whether it's visible or not by default
0:45:09is up in the menu bar space.
0:45:11So what they've really done is not,
0:45:13the way I would put it is Apple hasn't made a notch
0:45:17that's intruding in your screen.
0:45:19Apple has extended the screen with a special menu bar place
0:45:24up above so that you've got more content
0:45:30without the menu bar being in the way,
0:45:32if that makes any sense.
0:45:33So the menu bar, the bezel that they've eaten up
0:45:36by extending the screen everywhere except around the notch
0:45:42is the menu bar.
0:45:43So you're basically creating special screen space
0:45:45for the menu bar.
0:45:46It works fine.
0:45:48Most of the time you don't notice it
0:45:50when it's got a black background up there.
0:45:52You really don't notice it at all
0:45:55unless you move your cursor
0:45:57because the cursor doesn't like bump up against it.
0:45:59The cursor just passes into it.
0:46:01You take a screenshot by the way,
0:46:03you can't see the notch.
0:46:04- The screenshots are funny, man.
0:46:05The screenshots are really funny.
0:46:06Like when you're trying to show a screenshot
0:46:08of the menu bar separating,
0:46:09it's like, hey, what are you doing over there?
0:46:12- Yeah, I had to take a photo of the notch
0:46:14in order to show the notch in my review.
0:46:16But there is this moment, the ghostly moment
0:46:19where you take the cursor, the pointer,
0:46:20and you just sort of slide it in
0:46:22and it's like it's entered a black hole
0:46:23and it's disappeared.
0:46:24But if you keep sliding, it comes back out the other side.
0:46:27- I kind of like that.
0:46:28It's somewhere to hide it, you know?
0:46:29Just a designated cursor resting area.
0:46:32- Yeah, somebody needs to make a utility
0:46:34that just looks to see if the cursor is behind the notch
0:46:36and puts like a glow around the notch
0:46:38to let you know that the cursor is there.
0:46:40I would love that.
0:46:41That would be hilarious.
0:46:41So other than that,
0:46:44like when you're using a light background
0:46:47and so you can see the notch, you get used to it.
0:46:50It's really not that big a deal.
0:46:52And again, I think it goes back to the fact
0:46:54that although apps can choose to take control
0:46:57of that whole area, by default,
0:46:59all the apps live down below the notch.
0:47:02Even in full screen, they live below the notch.
0:47:05And what you've really got is this extra space
0:47:07that is essentially reserved for the menu bar.
0:47:10And by doing that, by spacing out the menu bar,
0:47:14all the things they've done
0:47:15the last couple of macOS revisions,
0:47:17they made the menu bar taller, they spaced it out,
0:47:20they made these little rounded highlights
0:47:22that go behind each one of the menu bar items
0:47:24when you click on them.
0:47:25All of that was really to set this notch up.
0:47:29And it works.
0:47:30It works really well.
0:47:31So, you know, try it for yourself, see how you feel.
0:47:34But I will tell you, the notch is a non-issue
0:47:39because of the menu bar.
0:47:42Because the menu bar exists, the notch is a non-issue.
0:47:44And it's not even like the iPhone
0:47:45where they put menu bar-ish things, right?
0:47:48Status bar up there, but then you get into an app
0:47:51and the app kind of like, you know,
0:47:53expands to fill the space with a background color
0:47:55and all of that.
0:47:56Well, on the Mac instead, it's just always the menu bar.
0:47:59And you're a Mac user, you have a menu bar, right?
0:48:03Like that's where it goes.
0:48:05It's fine.
0:48:06It really is just not a big deal.
0:48:08So unless you've got an app,
0:48:09I'm sure we're gonna hear stories of apps
0:48:10that have ridiculously long sets of different menu items.
0:48:15And that we're gonna get hilarious screenshots
0:48:18of how they jump over the divide and all of that.
0:48:21I would say another thing, if I'm a Mac developer,
0:48:24to put on my agenda is do a little menu bar analysis
0:48:29and say, maybe I don't need as many individual items.
0:48:34But if you have lots, it works, it works fine.
0:48:37It just jumps the divide and it's not that big a deal.
0:48:40- 'Cause they could, you know,
0:48:42like they could put a notch on the iMac.
0:48:44Like this might not be the only machine that gets a notch.
0:48:47- They could, they could.
0:48:49And if it was menu bar sized, it would not be a big deal.
0:48:52That's the bottom line here is,
0:48:56as a long time Mac user,
0:48:57I got used to the taller menu bar in no time.
0:49:01It's not a big deal.
0:49:02It is the menu bar.
0:49:03- 'Cause this one is, it's a little bit taller still, right?
0:49:06It's like a little bit taller than the taller one.
0:49:08But because they put like the screen is 16 by 10,
0:49:12is it 16 by 10 underneath?
0:49:14- Underneath the menu bar, it's 16 by 10.
0:49:16So it's basically, if you imagine it,
0:49:18it is a full Mac screen.
0:49:20And then there's a menu bar, little menu bar and status bar,
0:49:24bonus bit above it on the left and the right.
0:49:27You could think of it that way,
0:49:28'cause that's basically how it's built.
0:49:30And so I think in the long run,
0:49:32most apps will never, ever, ever, ever go up there.
0:49:36It's menu bar space.
0:49:38And that's the perfect space to hide a little cutout
0:49:41'cause it's just the Mac menu bar.
0:49:43It's fine.
0:49:43It's, so yeah, again, I've seen so much anger about this.
0:49:49It's so weird.
0:49:51And if you use it, maybe you'll still be angry, I don't know,
0:49:54but I use it for a week and it's just,
0:49:56I think it's very clever.
0:49:57I think it doesn't get in the way at all.
0:50:00And it's all because that menu bar exists.
0:50:02If the menu bar didn't exist,
0:50:03things would get really complicated really fast.
0:50:05But the menu bar is already kind of a locked off area.
0:50:08Now, if you're somebody who does the hide menu bar thing,
0:50:11then it is gonna be a little bit weird
0:50:15'cause the hide menu bar option still works
0:50:18when you're not in full screen to hide the menu bar.
0:50:20And what you end up with is,
0:50:22your desktop picture still extends up there
0:50:25and you can move your mouse up there.
0:50:26And if you try to drag like a narrow window,
0:50:28like over up into the upper left-hand corner,
0:50:31it goes, and it pushes it back down below the menu bar space.
0:50:35- Could I hide a secret file of secrets
0:50:37underneath the notch on the desktop?
0:50:40You know?
0:50:41- Probably not.
0:50:41- Probably not, that's a shame.
0:50:42Now that'd be fun.
0:50:43Someone should make that as a utility too, you know.
0:50:46- I put my cursor in there and it opens up a secret folder.
0:50:50- Or like a little, some sort of UI that,
0:50:52you know how you've got the UI in a menu bar extra
0:50:54that drops down like Fantastical drops down?
0:50:57- Oh yeah.
0:50:57- Have the option to have it drop down on a hotkey,
0:51:00it drops down from behind the notch.
0:51:03- Yes, I love it.
0:51:04- There it is. - That's what I want.
0:51:06- Anyway, I'm sure clever people will do stuff like that.
0:51:08- I hope so. - It'll be fun.
0:51:09- So the notch has within it the webcam, any thoughts?
0:51:14- Sure, it is the, what's the wording
0:51:17that lost you a point on the Ricky's?
0:51:19It is the best-- - The best webcam ever
0:51:21in a Mac laptop. - In a Mac laptop, right?
0:51:25It's the same as the iMac one, it's the same.
0:51:29It's a 1080 with the image processing and it is as good.
0:51:34It's a little bit better than the one in my iMac Pro
0:51:38'cause my iMac Pro doesn't have the image processor
0:51:41wired up, I don't think the T2 does that,
0:51:44but it's essentially the same hardware.
0:51:47It is fine.
0:51:50This is one of those categories where I don't wanna give
0:51:54Apple credit for making an improvement to something
0:51:57that should be way better than it is.
0:51:59'Cause the bottom line is it's a Pro laptop.
0:52:01The iMac, the iPad mini, the iPad mini has center stage
0:52:06and the MacBook Pro does not.
0:52:10It's dumb, I get it, maybe they can't make it thin enough,
0:52:13maybe they couldn't fit it in this time, whatever.
0:52:15But if I'm gonna judge it, I'm gonna say it's the best
0:52:18webcam ever in a Mac notebook and it should still be way
0:52:21better than it is.
0:52:22- The iPad, not even just the iPad mini, the $300 iPad.
0:52:26- Oh yeah, yeah, you're right.
0:52:28I mean, so center stage, it's like, it's right there.
0:52:31It needs to be on the Mac, it's disappointing that it's not.
0:52:34This is fine, it is the best that they've done so far,
0:52:37but they don't deserve applause for this upgrade.
0:52:41It is literally the least they could do
0:52:44and the least they have done.
0:52:45And I hope that they get over it pretty soon
0:52:47and start putting a, like again, 12 megapixel in the iPads,
0:52:5212 megapixel wide screen with auto panning center stage.
0:52:57Like that should be on every Mac.
0:53:01And so I'm not gonna give them credit for going to 1080
0:53:03with their webcam, with processing.
0:53:05It's nice, but they get no cookie for that.
0:53:08I'm sorry, they just don't.
0:53:09Same with the SD card, like the SD card, I'm glad it's back.
0:53:13The HDMI slot port, I'm glad it's back.
0:53:16Did they put those, make those cutting edge
0:53:19or are they kind of second class?
0:53:21They're kind of second class.
0:53:22I'm glad they're there,
0:53:24but they're not doing the HDMI 2.1,
0:53:27they're not doing the faster SD card specs.
0:53:31They're fine and probably all that anybody who uses
0:53:35that ports really needs,
0:53:36which is probably why they made that decision.
0:53:38But at the same time, no cookie for that.
0:53:42Like I'm glad they're back.
0:53:43So they get an award for rectifying their error,
0:53:46but they could have made them more cutting edge
0:53:48than they did.
0:53:49Same thing with the charging ports on the 16 inch.
0:53:51Like it's, those ports are also lesser, right?
0:53:55'Cause they've got this new power delivery spec
0:53:57and their brick on the 16 inch supports it.
0:54:00And the MagSafe on the 16 inch supports it,
0:54:03but the ports on the 16 inch don't.
0:54:05So they don't do fast charging.
0:54:06And it feels like all of Apple's ports
0:54:09and the webcam are like leftover
0:54:13from three or four years ago.
0:54:15And right now they're given water
0:54:18to somebody dying of thirst.
0:54:19So we'll take it all.
0:54:20But I look at those areas as all the areas
0:54:23that probably need to be improved
0:54:24the next time they do a version of this product,
0:54:26because they're all still kind of not,
0:54:29like for such a cutting edge project or product,
0:54:33there are several things on this product
0:54:36that are very much not cutting edge.
0:54:38That's okay.
0:54:39It's okay, but there's room for improvement there.
0:54:42- Yeah, definitely.
0:54:44You know, I'm still gonna, I haven't tried it out yet,
0:54:46but I consider it's the same webcam.
0:54:48I'm sure I'm gonna continue to have the same issues
0:54:50with the camera being completely unusable to me
0:54:52and my studio because of the way that it,
0:54:56like the overhead lighting I have interferes,
0:54:58which is a thing that other devices don't have.
0:55:00Like iPhones, iPads, they handle it.
0:55:02Fine.
0:55:03I don't know if it's like a focusing thing,
0:55:05so it's able to not be affected by the light so much,
0:55:09but it continues to be a frustration of mine.
0:55:11I have no doubt will continue to be a frustration of mine.
0:55:14When I get it, I'll actually record some videos
0:55:16so you can see what it looks like.
0:55:18Very frustrating.
0:55:19- Oh boy.
0:55:20- You know, when I was looking at the keyboard images
0:55:23in your review and you were talking about
0:55:25the full height function keys,
0:55:28I had this like alternate world kind of thought,
0:55:31which I think I would have liked,
0:55:33which is half height function keys and a touch bar.
0:55:36But obviously this is only in a world where the touch bar
0:55:40got more functionality than just glorified function keys.
0:55:45But I think I would like that.
0:55:47- Yeah, I mean the touch bar, they tried it
0:55:49and obviously they didn't think it worked.
0:55:51And I think pretty long ago they decided it didn't work.
0:55:55And it just took them a while to get to the point
0:55:57of ripping it out because it's the only thing
0:56:00as detailed in many episodes of upgrade over the years,
0:56:03they never really updated the software for the touch bar,
0:56:06which suggests to me that very quickly
0:56:09after the touch bar came out,
0:56:11Apple had basically decided that it was not gonna make it
0:56:14and that they were just gonna keep it alive
0:56:16with minimal effort until they could rip it out.
0:56:18And then they finally have ripped it out now.
0:56:20I don't know, I had a section that I took out
0:56:22because I feel like it's another article.
0:56:23And I know Gruber mentioned this on the talk show
0:56:25a couple of weeks ago.
0:56:26The idea that,
0:56:27Apple could still do some innovation,
0:56:32try some innovation in keyboards.
0:56:33I just feel like they are so bitten.
0:56:35Like every attempt they've done to innovate in keyboards
0:56:38has been met with rejection and people saying,
0:56:41why are you doing this?
0:56:43You're a monster.
0:56:43And so they've gotten praise
0:56:45for not innovating in keyboards.
0:56:48Like is key and could keyboards be innovated on?
0:56:51I think they could.
0:56:52And I think maybe Apple's innovations
0:56:56were just the wrong ones for the wrong reasons.
0:56:59The best one that I've come up with is,
0:57:02as somebody who uses the Stream Deck,
0:57:04is I would be curious about replacing the function keys
0:57:09with programmable keys that were still keys.
0:57:14But that had an Apple,
0:57:15I know at one point they filed for a patent for this.
0:57:17And I know that some other keyboards do this.
0:57:19It's the idea that you've got,
0:57:22the keys actually change based on context
0:57:24and you can program them.
0:57:26But they're still keys.
0:57:28'Cause I think one of the important points
0:57:29is being able to get to them by feel.
0:57:31That would be an interesting thing for Apple to pursue,
0:57:34I guess, but honestly,
0:57:36it has been such a nightmare the last five years
0:57:38that I don't blame Apple for basically saying,
0:57:41we're gonna stick to the classics.
0:57:43This is what everybody really wants.
0:57:46We're gonna innovate in other areas.
0:57:48And truth be told,
0:57:50I would much rather them think about
0:57:52how you could put touch on a Mac display
0:57:55than I would have them monkey around
0:57:56with the keyboard some more.
0:57:58- So do you have any final thoughts?
0:58:00Is this a computer that Jason Snell wants?
0:58:03- Well, no, because of my use case,
0:58:07I'm not a laptop user so much anymore
0:58:10and the MacBook Air is fine for travel.
0:58:12If this was gonna be,
0:58:14if I was not gonna use my desktop
0:58:16or if I decided I was gonna buy a beautiful display
0:58:18that isn't available,
0:58:21and then use a docked laptop, I would get this,
0:58:24but I'm kind of holding out.
0:58:26Personally, what I want is a big screen desktop iMac,
0:58:31essentially for my desk.
0:58:34And then I've got my little M1 MacBook Air
0:58:36for when I need to travel and that's all I need.
0:58:40So it's not for me,
0:58:41but the thing is laptops are for most people, right?
0:58:45Most people are laptops.
0:58:47And although most,
0:58:49the majority of those laptops that Apple sells
0:58:51are MacBook Airs, even in the pro space,
0:58:54I believe it is true.
0:58:55It's probably not as great,
0:58:57but I'm sure that more than half of the pro,
0:59:00people are buying laptops probably even more than that,
0:59:03two thirds, three quarters.
0:59:05So it doesn't matter that it's not for me.
0:59:07- Laptops are computers now.
0:59:10That's what a computer is.
0:59:11It's a laptop.
0:59:12- Yeah, and honestly, what is a desktop?
0:59:15It is essentially just,
0:59:17you would prefer to be in a,
0:59:20sitting at a desk with a big screen context,
0:59:23which is why, yeah, you could easily buy one of these.
0:59:25And I think that's why we hear the clamor
0:59:28for a big external display from Apple
0:59:30that doesn't cost $5,000.
0:59:32Is that what so many people really want
0:59:33is a MacBook Pro like this one,
0:59:35and they want to be able to dock it at their desk
0:59:37to a big, beautiful display.
0:59:39And the displays that are out there right now are not great
0:59:42or cost $5,000 and that's not-
0:59:44- Or just frankly, at any price,
0:59:45don't have the features that the laptop display has.
0:59:49- Sure, well, that's also true.
0:59:50So I- - Like I could give Apple
0:59:52six grand and I'm not gonna get promotion.
0:59:56- Yeah, that's true.
0:59:56You're not.
0:59:57You'll get XDR, but you're not gonna get promotion.
1:00:01So yeah, it's a funny time.
1:00:05And for me personally,
1:00:07I'm looking forward to seeing these chips in an iMac,
1:00:11something with a very, very, very big screen.
1:00:14If I was in, you know,
1:00:17if they made a 27-inch mini LED display,
1:00:22I would think about getting one of these
1:00:28and not having to have my MacBook Air,
1:00:31but I already have my MacBook Air and it's gonna be fine.
1:00:34And what I really want is the,
1:00:36ideally even better performance
1:00:38that it would be in a desktop.
1:00:39And my desktop, I've had a desktop for a while now.
1:00:42I started when I started out on my own with a laptop
1:00:44that was docked and then I got that first 5K iMac.
1:00:47And I'm very happy with that kind of iMac lifestyle.
1:00:51But the truth is that these are, yes,
1:00:55these are the mainstream, this is what a computer is.
1:00:58And this is a Mac Pro that will go with you
1:01:02anywhere you wanna go and do your work.
1:01:05And that's pretty great.
1:01:06And also I would say, a lot of times,
1:01:09I wrote a piece about this that, you know,
1:01:10where I was making fun of Steven Hackett,
1:01:12basically about like, you don't need a Mac Pro, right?
1:01:15Don't buy a Mac Pro just 'cause it's cool.
1:01:17Unless you want to, unless it makes you feel good,
1:01:18which it makes Steven feel good.
1:01:20So that's fine.
1:01:21But I would say the same here.
1:01:22- I don't think it makes me feel so good anymore.
1:01:24- Well, no, the beauty of the 1999, 1999, I think,
1:01:29base model MacBook Pro is these, you know,
1:01:35you may not need the kind of power
1:01:37that's at the high end of these things.
1:01:39And so by doing the chip binning,
1:01:40so they've got the reduced core count
1:01:42and they've got the reduced GPU count.
1:01:44And I know that means that they're raising the price
1:01:47and yet having their lesser processors, you know,
1:01:51just not in terms of the processor itself
1:01:53so much as the cores and GPUs are turned off,
1:01:55like in that base model.
1:01:57So you have to spend even more to get up to like full chip.
1:02:00But I think the truth is some people just like Pro laptops
1:02:04and they want more than the MacBook Air.
1:02:06And beyond that, they don't really need a Mac Pro, right?
1:02:10And so that's the advantage of Apple making those
1:02:13binned chips available down at lower prices
1:02:17is I think a lot of people just get that 1999 model
1:02:21and be happy, right?
1:02:22And no, it's not gonna be as fast as the Mac's chip
1:02:27with 32 GPUs and 64 gigs of RAM, like no,
1:02:32but you know, a lot of people don't need that.
1:02:37And so I think that that is something we should pay
1:02:40attention to is that people are gonna buy lower end
1:02:43configurations of these things
1:02:44and they're still gonna be great.
1:02:46- This episode is brought to you by Things,
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1:04:48Let's finally, Jason, finally talk about
1:04:51the Apple Watch Series 7.
1:04:54- Okay.
1:04:54- We can finally talk about it.
1:04:56We've been meaning to get to it for a while.
1:04:58Can you remind me and the Upgradians
1:05:01what Apple Watch you were upgrading from
1:05:03and what model you have?
1:05:05- Okay.
1:05:07And keep in mind that I haven't thought
1:05:08about the Apple Watch in a week
1:05:09'cause I've been thinking about a laptop.
1:05:11So it's on my to-do list.
1:05:13I had a Series 5.
1:05:16I bought a Series 7 titanium.
1:05:19It's not here yet.
1:05:21I have an Apple review unit of a Series 7 aluminum
1:05:25and the big one again.
1:05:29- Right.
1:05:30Okay.
1:05:31- So I mean, I have the Series 7 stainless steel.
1:05:35It's 45 millimeters is the big one, right?
1:05:38And I was upgrading from the 44 millimeter ceramic
1:05:44Series 5 watch.
1:05:47And I'd never used a Series 6.
1:05:50So I have kind of not really,
1:05:52I didn't really have much of a comparison
1:05:54'cause some of the stuff that's there,
1:05:56which I quite like is, you know,
1:05:57like the brighter always on display
1:05:59and all that kind of stuff.
1:06:00Like I've benefited from that.
1:06:02I took one blood oxygen reading
1:06:04and that's probably the last time I'll ever do that,
1:06:07but I've done it now.
1:06:08- Well, congratulations.
1:06:10- What do you think of the like change size,
1:06:13the screen size and stuff like that?
1:06:15Do you notice it?
1:06:16Do you like it?
1:06:17- Okay. - Yeah, I do.
1:06:18I do and I do.
1:06:19That's the thing about it
1:06:20that really was what motivated me to update.
1:06:25And I feel very impressed by it in general.
1:06:28Like in a screen this small,
1:06:31pushing that screen larger makes a huge difference.
1:06:34And I like tapping my code in to unlock it.
1:06:39It's like, oh, look, these buttons are so much more tappable
1:06:42and there's so much more space for individual apps.
1:06:46I think it's very impressive.
1:06:50That said, there are still,
1:06:51I can't believe I'm saying this,
1:06:53but like, so they updated some of the watch faces
1:06:56for the larger display.
1:06:57So like they must've decided finally that utility,
1:07:00bless utility original watch face
1:07:04and it's still my favorite.
1:07:06Like, oh yeah, we kind of got away
1:07:08with not doing anything on it before,
1:07:10but we really need to do it now.
1:07:11So what did they do?
1:07:13They pushed it out to the edges
1:07:14and didn't change anything else about it.
1:07:15So even though there's plenty of room
1:07:17for like corner complications in utility,
1:07:20they are, because the watch design today
1:07:23or the face design dates from before
1:07:25there were those corner complications that are bigger,
1:07:29they just never ever updated them.
1:07:34So you still have this limited number of complications.
1:07:36That's what frustrates me the most about the Apple Watch
1:07:39is it feels very much like they put a lot of effort
1:07:44into the new stuff and the old stuff just sits there
1:07:47and never gets an update.
1:07:49And they feel like it's solved the problem, but it hasn't.
1:07:53And so I was really hoping that I would have
1:07:55some new watch face abilities with this watch.
1:07:59And the truth is it's the exact same state of affairs
1:08:01as on the five where my primary watch face
1:08:05is probably going to be California,
1:08:07which I don't like as much as utility,
1:08:10but I can get it to be close to what utility looks like
1:08:14and have four corner complications,
1:08:17which the other one doesn't have mostly again,
1:08:21because it predates that.
1:08:23And even with this update,
1:08:25they didn't make any changes there.
1:08:26It's just so frustrating to me.
1:08:27And maybe it has to do with the primitive nature of watchOS
1:08:31where if they update a watch face to be different
1:08:35on some models, it gets confused
1:08:37because the other models don't have that.
1:08:39And so they're like, how does the watch app work
1:08:41and how do apps affect those complications?
1:08:46Like I get that it's hard, but it is kind of ridiculous that-
1:08:50- They could find a way.
1:08:51- Right?
1:08:52- They could find a way if they wanted to.
1:08:53- I get that it might be complicated,
1:08:55but why are you making watch faces
1:08:57for the original Apple Watch
1:08:59and then just not adding anything
1:09:02that you've added to the OS?
1:09:03Only the new, so basically only the new watch faces
1:09:07get new features that were introduced at that point, right?
1:09:12So if you get a new watch face that was introduced
1:09:14when the new feature was there,
1:09:16they will take advantage of it.
1:09:17But like the old watch faces are sort of like,
1:09:19nah, we're not gonna do that.
1:09:21We're back here in the olden times.
1:09:23And I am frustrated by that, but I do love the screen.
1:09:27And as somebody who uses my watch a lot with cellular
1:09:32and it's faster, I can tell because faster than the five,
1:09:37it feels faster and the screen is nice.
1:09:40And that's, this is what I was looking for.
1:09:43I wish that they would really walk through the entire OS
1:09:46and update everything.
1:09:47And if that means breaking compatibility with old models,
1:09:51like I know they still sell the series three,
1:09:54but this is the problem, right?
1:09:55Just like, it still feels like I'm inheriting
1:09:59really dusty old stuff from the original Apple Watch,
1:10:02which was a long time ago now.
1:10:04And that stuff all needs a brush up.
1:10:07- I, at first, I didn't notice the screen.
1:10:09I couldn't tell it was bigger.
1:10:11And then as soon as I saw the passcode screen,
1:10:14I was like, oh, there it is.
1:10:15- Oh, yeah.
1:10:16- It's like almost the metrics on the buttons,
1:10:18just knowing that they're larger and it's like, oh yes.
1:10:21- I love the notification button sizes.
1:10:23They're so much easier to tap now.
1:10:25I like that a lot.
1:10:27And I would say as well, whilst it looks ridiculous,
1:10:29the keyboard is the best way to send messages now.
1:10:33That little swipe keyboard, it works great.
1:10:35So much better than dictating.
1:10:37And it's way better than individually drawing every letter,
1:10:41which is absurd.
1:10:43Like that's always been absurd.
1:10:45I like the little keyboard.
1:10:47I think it does a good job.
1:10:49The design of the watch itself, I'm pretty into.
1:10:54I got, remember I got the gold one
1:10:55and I really love the gold one.
1:10:58I think it looks really nice.
1:11:00I'm very happy with the overall feel of it,
1:11:02which I'm really pleased about
1:11:05'cause I was very begrudging
1:11:06in getting rid of the addition, the white ceramic.
1:11:09I enjoyed that.
1:11:11I actually think I prefer the design now
1:11:14of the watch that I have now.
1:11:16I actually think it looks more like a watch,
1:11:18which is something I've always wanted,
1:11:20especially with the bands that I'm using.
1:11:22So on a daily basis, I'm wearing the Leather Link band.
1:11:26I got the Midnight one and I really like that pairing.
1:11:29And I got the, as I mentioned before,
1:11:31I did get the gold Milanese,
1:11:32which I decided to wear on occasions.
1:11:35You know, going out to dinner or something, I'll put it on.
1:11:37And it helps me feel like I'm dressing the watch up
1:11:40a little bit, which is I think something
1:11:41that's important to me 'cause it was something
1:11:43that I would find frustrating with the Apple Watch before
1:11:46is that it always felt like I was wearing a computer.
1:11:48And it still does, but now at least I think it has something
1:11:52that looks a little bit more special about it.
1:11:54I don't know when Apple changed this,
1:11:57but I'm happy that the digital crown
1:11:59is not black in the middle anymore.
1:12:01I don't know if that was maybe a thing
1:12:03that was held over longer on the edition,
1:12:06but you know, I had the white watch and it had a black crown.
1:12:09- Still black on the aluminum watch, Myke.
1:12:12- Oh, really?
1:12:13- Yeah, it's still with a red circle around it
1:12:14on the aluminum watch.
1:12:15Yeah, I've got the blue and it's still got a,
1:12:18the crown is blue, but the flat part is the red outline
1:12:23and then a black circle.
1:12:25- Still had the red outline, which at this point,
1:12:27I think on the stainless steel is pointless
1:12:29'cause I think you can only get the cellular maybe.
1:12:33So I don't know why that's needed.
1:12:34- Pointless.
1:12:35- But I'm very happy that they have,
1:12:39at least on some of the models now,
1:12:41they got rid of the black on the inside,
1:12:43but yeah, I don't need this red.
1:12:45It doesn't need to be here.
1:12:46I don't like it, wish I'd get rid of it,
1:12:48but they're getting better a little bit at a time.
1:12:51Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's fast.
1:12:54Like I was expecting that.
1:12:56I'm happy with it.
1:12:57- Oh, I mean, I'll talk about the look.
1:12:58The blue, all of the Apple watches that I've bought
1:13:01have been black.
1:13:02- Right.
1:13:04- But I had them send me for the review
1:13:06a blue with a blue band.
1:13:11It's really pretty.
1:13:12I'm very impressed with it.
1:13:13It is not super bright,
1:13:16but it's also not one of those Apple,
1:13:19we call it blue, but you really can't tell blues.
1:13:23It's a really nice blue.
1:13:26The bands are basically match it,
1:13:30which is also nice.
1:13:32And yeah, then you're walking around with a blue watch
1:13:34and you gotta like embrace it.
1:13:36And like I said, I think my preference is to keep it,
1:13:41keep it black, keep it dark, just keep it that way.
1:13:43That's my preference for a watch.
1:13:46But I really enjoyed wearing the blue
1:13:49for the last couple of weeks.
1:13:51It's fun.
1:13:53And so I can endorse the blue watch color
1:13:56for the aluminum watch.
1:13:57It's a lot of fun.
1:13:59I imagine the red is quite similar.
1:14:01If you're a fan of red,
1:14:03in this house, red is bad and blue is good.
1:14:06So we will always be on the blue train.
1:14:09But overall, it's kind of what I expected it to be,
1:14:12Apple watch wise.
1:14:14But I think I am actually more pleased with it
1:14:17than I was expecting.
1:14:18So that's a big win for me.
1:14:20- Yeah, yeah, I agree.
1:14:22I think that big screen is the story, right?
1:14:25Like, and that's the reason,
1:14:27if you're thinking of upgrading from a previous model,
1:14:29and I think series six, like you probably don't need to.
1:14:33Series five, I felt like I had refrained
1:14:36from buying an Apple watch last year.
1:14:38And I thought maybe this year.
1:14:41And with the bigger screen, I thought, that's what I want.
1:14:43And having seen it now,
1:14:45I think I was right in saying that that was enough.
1:14:49Certainly if you're using a watch older than a series five,
1:14:52I think that the benefit is clear.
1:14:55One of the things I haven't done that I need to test
1:14:57before I write my article is I'm really looking forward
1:14:59to seeing about the text size.
1:15:02Because you can adjust the text size
1:15:04much more than you could.
1:15:05And this, I felt was an accessibility problem
1:15:07on the Apple watch is the unlike on like the iPhone
1:15:12and the Mac, you could not go crank the system text
1:15:16up beyond a certain point.
1:15:18And that was a very small point.
1:15:20And older people end up having a problem
1:15:25with their near vision.
1:15:26And an Apple watch is really nice,
1:15:27but if you can't read your Apple watch
1:15:29without putting on your reading glasses,
1:15:31it's kind of not doing its job.
1:15:32And I don't have that problem, but I know people who do,
1:15:37and this is an issue.
1:15:38So I'm looking forward to checking that out,
1:15:40but I haven't done it yet because everything else.
1:15:44But I will get to that before I write my review
1:15:46and I'm looking forward to trying that out.
1:15:48- You know, I remain consistently frustrated
1:15:51at their ability to create watch faces though.
1:15:53I just, I think I'm always gonna be this way.
1:15:55- So somebody, I think it was Steve Trout and Smith,
1:15:58but somebody pointed out,
1:15:59and I think this is kind of brilliant,
1:16:03is what if Apple made a watch face that was hands
1:16:08and made a complication type that was behind the hands?
1:16:18Like, and I thought, I thought I kind of like this idea
1:16:26of like, all right, Apple, it is bargaining,
1:16:28but like, all right, Apple, you're not gonna let,
1:16:32maybe they will, I mean, stranger things have happened.
1:16:35You're not gonna let us do third party watch faces.
1:16:38How about mega complications, right?
1:16:44How about we do, you know, you draw the hands,
1:16:48you do all of that,
1:16:49but we get more control over some other stuff.
1:16:52Like, could they put themselves in,
1:16:54I mean, it doesn't solve every problem,
1:16:55but it solves some problems.
1:16:57If Apple sort of says, you know,
1:17:00we have a few different hand styles,
1:17:02and then beyond that,
1:17:03we can't wait to see what you do with it
1:17:05and give third parties the ability
1:17:07to do more interesting stuff behind.
1:17:09But I agree with you.
1:17:10I think the problem with the faces
1:17:13as it currently stands is,
1:17:14it is very hard to look at the Apple Watch faces
1:17:19and feel like there's any prioritization at Apple for it.
1:17:22And I'm not saying that the faces that they're doing
1:17:26as new faces aren't nice.
1:17:27I think the portrait face is really nice.
1:17:30And that the fact that they're using portrait phone
1:17:33picture data to do cutouts
1:17:36and like layer your watch data in with the pictures,
1:17:40which if you haven't seen it, it's amazing.
1:17:41Like you've got a person in the foreground
1:17:43and the time is in the background
1:17:45and it's slightly masked by the person in the foreground.
1:17:48Like when it works, it's amazing.
1:17:50It's like a fun thing,
1:17:52but it really feels like the watch face team
1:17:55needs three times as many people as are working on it now,
1:18:00because they should be better.
1:18:02There should be more complication options.
1:18:04And I don't know, watch faces matter.
1:18:10Like I know they're silly,
1:18:12but they're also important and personalize your watch.
1:18:15And it's an important part of being an Apple Watch user
1:18:19and owner is the face.
1:18:21And yet it seems like it's never really a priority for Apple
1:18:26even now.
1:18:27So I agree.
1:18:29They're fine, but boy, they should be better than fine.
1:18:33- This episode of Upgrade is also brought to you
1:18:36by HPE Tech Talk, a podcast from the folks
1:18:39at Hewlett Packard Enterprise.
1:18:41I love finding new podcasts to listen to.
1:18:43I know that you obviously do too, right?
1:18:45We all love podcasts here.
1:18:47You find something new, you can go back
1:18:48and listen to a bunch of past episodes.
1:18:50I always find that such a treat.
1:18:52Tech Talk is a show that talks through HPE news,
1:18:54tech insights, world-class innovations,
1:18:57with tons of really interesting topics.
1:18:59Like for example, what about applying tech
1:19:01for the good of the people, planet,
1:19:03and communities that surround us,
1:19:05which seems like something that's only more important
1:19:06these days, or how Walt Disney Studios,
1:19:09experimenting of AI and machine learning
1:19:11to help creators with the filmmaking process,
1:19:13or even how the chief technology officer
1:19:15of Tottenham Hotspur, which is a football club,
1:19:18their state of the art stadium
1:19:19and how it's utilizing technology and connectivity
1:19:22to help keep players and fans safe
1:19:24amid COVID-19 restrictions.
1:19:26All of these types of topics are available to you
1:19:29with HPE Tech Talk.
1:19:31I listened to an episode recently focused
1:19:33on how companies can integrate the power
1:19:35of cloud technologies into every part
1:19:37of their business setup.
1:19:38This is something called moving to a hybrid model,
1:19:42and it really talks about how companies
1:19:44can work through that and some of the things
1:19:46they might want to think about.
1:19:47So if this is something of interest to you,
1:19:48you might want to check it out.
1:19:50Previous episodes have also had tons of great guests.
1:19:53This is something that they really believe in on the show,
1:19:55taking you straight to the source
1:19:57and interviewing some really impressive tech leaders,
1:20:01like Sanjeev Katwa, the CTO of Tottenham Hotspur FC,
1:20:04talking about the stuff I was mentioning a minute ago
1:20:06about how they're using technology and connectivity
1:20:09at their new stadium.
1:20:10Emily Christensen, a master candidate
1:20:12in applied data science at USC.
1:20:14Monica Livingston from Intel, and many, many more.
1:20:18Listen to brand new episodes of HPE's Tech Talk
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1:20:25Search for Tech Talk right now,
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1:20:30Our thanks to HPE Tech Talk for their support
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1:20:35Let's finish out today's episode
1:20:37with some #AskUpgrade questions.
1:20:41The first comes from Millennial Falcon,
1:20:42which is a great username.
1:20:44"What technology product do you think
1:20:47you may have more nostalgia for than most people would?"
1:20:50- Wow, this is a great question.
1:20:53I've got a bunch, right?
1:20:54A bunch of unloved tech products that I love.
1:20:58So the first is a thing called Video Guide,
1:21:01which I'm sure I've mentioned before.
1:21:03It was basically a...
1:21:05You know how every DVR and cable box and everything now
1:21:10has like a grid that you call up
1:21:11that shows where all the shows are,
1:21:13and you can set your shows to record
1:21:15or record the same show every time and all of that.
1:21:18Video Guide was that before any DVR technology existed.
1:21:22So it was like a little box that you attach to your TV,
1:21:25and it did an IR blaster to your VCR.
1:21:28And it had a guide back in the day
1:21:31where you didn't have a cable box with a guide
1:21:33if you even had a cable box.
1:21:35And you could set to record shows,
1:21:37and at the time the show was recording,
1:21:40it would turn on your VCR with the IR blaster,
1:21:42switch to that channel and press record.
1:21:45And then when the show was over,
1:21:47it would use the IR blaster to press stop.
1:21:50It was amazing.
1:21:51- Man, I have found an incredible review website thing
1:21:55of this from the 90s.
1:21:57I'm gonna put it on this. - I've linked to it before.
1:21:58It's the one like that in a Tidbits article
1:22:01are like the only traces of Video Guide out there
1:22:03other than maybe my Six Colors article where I mentioned it.
1:22:05So it was a TiVo, except it wasn't.
1:22:09It was just the guide part, but it was mind blowing.
1:22:12And we bought a second VCR so that we could have the one VCR
1:22:17that was just recording stuff.
1:22:19And then the other one where we played it back.
1:22:21Again, and then like five years later, the TiVo came out.
1:22:26But it was, I mean, so huge nostalgia for the Video Guide.
1:22:30iPod Hi-Fi? (laughs)
1:22:34- Yeah, you kept that thing around for a long time.
1:22:36- I mean, it's right here.
1:22:38I'm not using it right now, but it is right here
1:22:40and not so bad.
1:22:42Everybody's got nostalgia for the iPod, which turned 20.
1:22:49I have nostalgia for it too, but it's not quite the same.
1:22:52But for weird tech products that I have nostalgia for,
1:22:56that Video Guide was incredible.
1:22:59And then of course, went out of business one morning.
1:23:03That's my favorite thing.
1:23:04Whenever people talk about like subscriptions to software
1:23:07or not owning something or relying on something
1:23:10that's being done by a fly-by-night company,
1:23:13I think a Video Guide, because one day we came out
1:23:16and turned on the TV and pressed the button
1:23:19on the Video Guide and a screen came up that said,
1:23:21"Video Guide has been discontinued.
1:23:23Please send your Video Guide back
1:23:25and we'll give you some money back."
1:23:27And that was it.
1:23:28It was over.
1:23:29- Did you get money back?
1:23:30- I don't think we did.
1:23:33I think we did send it back.
1:23:34Maybe they sent us a check for like $4 or something.
1:23:36It was literally nothing.
1:23:38And I thought that was a really good lesson too.
1:23:40And then obviously like TiVo came along
1:23:42and it solved everything.
1:23:44- Mine, I think, is the very first video iPod.
1:23:48So was it like iPod fifth gen with video
1:23:53or whatever it was called?
1:23:54You know, like the one where they demoed it
1:23:56and they showed off the office, right?
1:23:59That was their whole thing.
1:24:00Hey, look, you can watch the office on your iPod.
1:24:02This was just, I mean, I've had iPods before and stuff,
1:24:05but this one was just so good for me.
1:24:07Like I remember it was a Christmas gift
1:24:10and I remember convincing my mom.
1:24:14I must've been like,
1:24:15maybe like 17 or 18 at the time.
1:24:18I convinced her that like really the only way
1:24:20for me to benefit from this for Christmas
1:24:21is like I should put some video on it in advance
1:24:23'cause we weren't gonna be at home that Christmas.
1:24:26So I got like an extra few days
1:24:28of just playing with the device before Christmas,
1:24:30which I always think back fondly to that.
1:24:34And then also I was working in a supermarket now,
1:24:36like my first job,
1:24:38and I would take my video iPod to work with me
1:24:42and during break, I would watch like video podcasts
1:24:47or video shows or maybe even like movies
1:24:51on the video iPod on my break.
1:24:53And I had this like weird deal.
1:24:54I would work on a Saturday, I was working in a supermarket
1:24:57and I would get like a 90 minute break because I was 18.
1:25:02It was like a thing that they had.
1:25:03Everybody else just got like an hour,
1:25:05but because of the amount of hours I was working.
1:25:07- Child labor laws.
1:25:08- Yeah, I may have been like 17.
1:25:10Actually, I think I was 17 then.
1:25:11- Yeah.
1:25:12- I think that was what it was.
1:25:13It was like, 'cause you can get a job here
1:25:14from the age of 16.
1:25:16- 'Cause the English had some problems with child labor,
1:25:18you know, so they put in some child labor laws.
1:25:20- All right, didn't know that.
1:25:21Thanks for letting me know.
1:25:22Between 16 and 18, you get longer breaks.
1:25:25And so it was kind of funny.
1:25:26I worked there until maybe I was 19,
1:25:28but nobody really paid attention.
1:25:30So I always got those long breaks, which was pretty great.
1:25:33And so I would take my 90 minute break.
1:25:36I'd have something to eat and then I'd go watch
1:25:37like a video or two for like an hour or so
1:25:41in the break room.
1:25:42So I love my video.
1:25:44I thought that was such a great thing.
1:25:45And with Steven's help, I'm rebuilding one.
1:25:48We got one, bought one online
1:25:50and I've replaced the internals of it.
1:25:53And now I got a new click wheel
1:25:54'cause the click wheel doesn't work.
1:25:55Got a blue click wheel.
1:25:56So I'm making a weird, wonderful Frankenstein version of it.
1:26:00- Fantastic.
1:26:02Cameron asks, "Who calls who on Skype prior to recording?
1:26:06Is it awkward before starting to record?"
1:26:09Couple of things on this.
1:26:10We don't use Skype anymore.
1:26:12- Nope.
1:26:13- We use Zoom.
1:26:14And so now nobody calls anyone.
1:26:18- Yeah, Zoom has a link.
1:26:19You just go to the link.
1:26:20Sometimes I'm there first, mostly Myke's there first
1:26:24because mostly my son is now going to school on Mondays.
1:26:30It's five minutes after we normally start recording.
1:26:33So I'm starting a little bit later
1:26:35so that we don't have like the sound
1:26:36of a garage door opening during the podcast.
1:26:38We do this for you, everybody.
1:26:41And so I'm on there usually after Myke, but not always.
1:26:44And then-
1:26:45- So there's always a ghost.
1:26:46- It's not awkward because a ghost, we make a ghost noise.
1:26:50Because the second person comes in silently.
1:26:53So you're sitting there with, you're in the Zoom room
1:26:56and you're sitting there doing your work
1:26:57and then suddenly somebody else appears
1:26:59and it can be startling.
1:26:59So instead we do a, ooh, haunted Zoom room.
1:27:04- And this started because I think
1:27:06once we switched over to Zoom,
1:27:08Jason appeared once and scared the bejesus out.
1:27:10- I scared you.
1:27:11- 'Cause I wasn't aware of the fact
1:27:14that I would not be told that Jason was joining the call.
1:27:17So now we do a little ghost noise
1:27:20and there's never any awkwardness
1:27:21because we're really good friends.
1:27:23So we always take a few minutes to chat.
1:27:25Like I can imagine if we were just work colleagues.
1:27:28- Hello Myke, how was your weekend?
1:27:30- How was your weekend?
1:27:32Mondays, am I right?
1:27:34I've got a big case of Mondays.
1:27:34- Oh man, I hate Mondays.
1:27:36- Did you see the cake in the break room today?
1:27:39- Whose birthday is it?
1:27:40I hope it's not Sandra.
1:27:42I don't like Sandra.
1:27:44- That's what it would be like if we were colleagues,
1:27:45but we're not, we're friends.
1:27:46So we just hang out.
1:27:48- I prefer bagels anyway.
1:27:49Hey, how about the weather?
1:27:51- In this economy?
1:27:54Paul asks, final question today.
1:27:57Would you consider putting a pop socket
1:27:58directly onto your iPad mini and using it without a case?
1:28:01It would be a more comfortable potentially,
1:28:04but not have a stand on it.
1:28:06- Well, let me tell you Paul,
1:28:07no seriously this question is for you Myke.
1:28:09- I mean, so here's the funny thing, Jason.
1:28:11Originally this question was directed at you
1:28:13and I removed you from the question
1:28:14because I knew you would have no answer.
1:28:16- Paul, I will never use a pop socket for anything ever.
1:28:19Myke.
1:28:20- Blood pop sockets on my phone,
1:28:22I don't want to put one on my iPad.
1:28:24The iPad is just easy to hold the way it is
1:28:26and I like the case on it.
1:28:27I like the, and I, I would not like not having
1:28:31the really easy way to stand it up.
1:28:32Maybe you could put a pop socket on the iPad
1:28:35in such a way you could stand it,
1:28:36but then it's probably not going to be in a good place
1:28:39for holding it.
1:28:39This isn't something I've really thought of.
1:28:42I like the case and there's someone can convince me
1:28:45otherwise, but that's where I am right now.
1:28:47- I'm going to get a lot of questions now
1:28:49about why I don't like pop sockets.
1:28:50And generally the answer is I don't want to stick something
1:28:52on my, on my devices.
1:28:54I just don't.
1:28:54- Back safe ones now.
1:28:56- Don't want it.
1:28:57- If you'd like to send in a question
1:29:00for an episode of upgrade,
1:29:01just send out a tweet with the hashtag ask upgrade
1:29:03or use question mark ask upgrade
1:29:05in the relay FM members discord,
1:29:06which you can get access to.
1:29:08If you sign up for upgrade plus go to get upgrade plus.com
1:29:11and you also get longer ad free episodes
1:29:14of every single upgrade release every week.
1:29:18And even if there's extra ones,
1:29:20you get longer episodes of upgrade of bonus content.
1:29:23Go to upgrade your wardrobe.com where you can go
1:29:28and pick up some wonderful upgrade merchandise available
1:29:31for just one more week.
1:29:33And before we go today,
1:29:35let me tell you about another show here on relay FM
1:29:37called Roboism hosted by Alex Cox and Kathy Campbell.
1:29:41It explores how artificial intelligence, machine learning
1:29:44and digital assistance affect our culture.
1:29:46Explore the humanity behind the bots
1:29:48that are quickly becoming a part of our everyday life
1:29:51at relay.fm/robowism or search for Roboism
1:29:54wherever you get your podcasts.
1:29:57I would like to thank HPE Tech Talk Things
1:30:00and Ooni Pizza Ovens for their support
1:30:02of this week's episode.
1:30:04And we'll be back next time.
1:30:05Until then, say goodbye Jason Snow.
1:30:07- Heads.
1:30:08Oh nice.
1:30:11Some people will get that.
1:30:12(upbeat music)
1:30:15(upbeat music)
1:30:17[Music]