369: The One With How Titles Are Made

0:00:00[Intro]

0:00:12From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 369.

0:00:17Today's show is brought to you by Pingdom, Membefall, and Gabi.

0:00:21My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by Jason Snow. Hi Jason!

0:00:24Hi Myke, how are you?

0:00:26I'm... good.

0:00:29Wow, pregnant pause there.

0:00:31Yeah.

0:00:31If you asked me how my weekend was, I would say it's going well so far,

0:00:35because of course we were recording this on Labor Day and holiday.

0:00:38I'm informed a holiday in America for people who do not work for themselves and pay attention

0:00:45to the calendar, but I've been informed by my school-going son and my working wife that

0:00:52they aren't working today. But you know, Upgrade, soldiers on!

0:00:56I wonder if it's worse that today I thought to myself, "Isn't it a holiday today?"

0:01:01Definitely not here, it isn't.

0:01:04So...

0:01:05No, no.

0:01:05That's what I've got going on.

0:01:07It's one of those American holidays. But Upgrade, often, even as a Monday program,

0:01:14we could often be preempted by holiday programming, but we rarely are, unless one of us is going

0:01:21somewhere for a long holiday weekend or something. We generally are just gonna blow right past the

0:01:26conventions of people taking time off and just continue to grind out Upgrade.

0:01:32Yeah.

0:01:32We have a #snowtalk question for you, it comes from JD.

0:01:36When and why did you decide to make show name quotes as opposed to the topic?

0:01:41So the episodes of every show we have as a quote from something said in the show.

0:01:46Why do we do that?

0:01:48I feel like podcasts have done that for a long time.

0:01:54And I mean, right?

0:01:57Like, podcasts have done this for a long time. So that's part of it, is there's sort of a convention.

0:02:01And the other thing is, so I had this with The Incomparable because The Incomparable

0:02:04does the same thing. And I had a guy who wrote to me and said, "Why do you have

0:02:09these titles that have nothing to do with what the show is about?

0:02:11If you're talking about a movie, your title should be the name of the movie."

0:02:16And I thought, "Well, one, that's boring."

0:02:19Right?

0:02:20It's boring.

0:02:21It's boring. But we did create in The Incomparable CMS, there is now a field called boring title.

0:02:26Or sorry, it's title_boring for that guy.

0:02:30And I still will fill it in. And it shows up in the RSS feed, and it shows up in a bunch of other places.

0:02:35So after the clever title, below it as a footnote, it says what we actually talked about.

0:02:41But in general, I find it boring. And for a show like Upgrade, I don't know,

0:02:44we're not going to do a title with a list of all eight things we talked about, right?

0:02:49And if you only make it about one or two of them, you're not being fair to the episode,

0:02:54because the episode is about more than those things.

0:02:56Yeah, this goes back to Twit, I think. Like so many things, not just in technology podcasting,

0:03:03in podcasting, go back to Twit. And they would pick out a title based on something said.

0:03:10And then for Five by Five, they started with an audience submission-based and voting system,

0:03:16which is what we also do. So mostly now, I believe it's all in our members Discord.

0:03:22But as we are talking, people are suggesting titles as a bot that collects them.

0:03:26And then afterwards, if you're listening live, people vote on the titles, and then we

0:03:30use that voting to help us pick one. We have a little hand in it ourselves.

0:03:35It's also as well on this show, though, we do break from this rule on occasion.

0:03:41So drafts, if we have interviews, stuff like that, there are specific episodes that we

0:03:47name purposefully. There are also some of my shows I don't do it on either.

0:03:53So like on the Test Drivers, Austin picks the title because Austin is a YouTuber and

0:03:58comes up with titles for things all the time. So I just say to him, what do you want to call it?

0:04:01Plus as well, it's harder with the episodes with the shows that aren't recorded live.

0:04:06Yes.

0:04:07I'm not very good at writing the titles down as I'm recording.

0:04:11It's better when we record live because people just suggest lots of things that we say.

0:04:16Yeah, it's true. And so I appreciate the idea.

0:04:20The reason I added the boring title field in The Incomparable is I appreciate that people want to,

0:04:25we have an index, so you can find it anyway, but the people want to know, wait a second,

0:04:29what is this episode about? And so I realized that enough to do that, but I also

0:04:34thought it made the show really boring if we did that.

0:04:38But yeah, when we really are doing something very particular, a very special kind of thing,

0:04:42like a draft or an interview, we're sure to mention it. And then otherwise we just kind of let it go.

0:04:47Because the alternative would be like what I do for the Six Colors podcast is it's the date.

0:04:52That's it, right? Like that's the alternative is you could just give it a date or something

0:04:58or just the episode number. And that would be super boring. But so if you don't want to label

0:05:05it as something very specific and you don't want to be super boring, what are you left with?

0:05:09And I thought that it's a smart convention to just sort of have it be something fun and interesting

0:05:14and maybe makes you curious about what the episode's going to discuss or as you're listening,

0:05:19wonder what that thing means. When you hear it, you go, oh, there's the episode title.

0:05:26And that's about all. Also, I think a lot of people who listen to podcasts don't even

0:05:31know about episode titles or care. So there's that too.

0:05:33Maybe we should adopt a friend's style, you know, be like the one with App Store guidelines.

0:05:41A lot of TV shows do that. Like every episode is sort of phrased the same way.

0:05:45Could do that. Probably won't.

0:05:49The one with the new iPhone repeat every year.

0:05:52The one with how titles are made.

0:05:55Hey-o. That could actually be the title of this episode. We'll find out.

0:05:59If you'd like to send in a suggestion to help us open a show, just send out a tweet with

0:06:04the hashtag Snow Talk or you can use question mark Snow Talk in the Relay FM members discord.

0:06:09I would like to remind our listeners about our St. Jude campaign. It is September. We are fully in

0:06:15September now and September is Childhood Cancer Awareness Month. For the third consecutive year,

0:06:20Relay FM is supporting the life-saving mission of St. Jude Children's Research Hospital that

0:06:25is finding cures and saving children. It is estimated that more than 400,000

0:06:31children around the world develop cancer every single year and nearly half of them are never

0:06:35diagnosed. In the United States, more than four out of five children survive cancer,

0:06:40but in many developing countries, this statistic is reversed with fewer than one out of five

0:06:44children diagnosed with cancer that will live. Today, the most significant predictor of whether

0:06:49a child will survive cancer is where they live, which is why in March 2018, St. Jude became the

0:06:54first and only World Health Organization collaborating center for childhood cancer.

0:07:00The goal of this initiative is to raise the survival rate of six common childhood cancers

0:07:05to 60% by 2030. This September, you can help Relay FM surpass over $1 million raised for the

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0:07:20we are at $184,934.88 as we are recording this, so we are just over $11,000 away from meeting

0:07:32$1 million raised over the last three years, which is an absolutely incredible, astounding,

0:07:38wonderful thing that our community has come together to do. You can help us cross this

0:07:43incredible milestone by making a donation right now at stjude.org/relay. This year,

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0:08:00please send us a note and we can have that amount routed through to the campaign. Just email steven@relay.fm.

0:08:06And the Relay FM podcast-a-thon for St. Jude, oh my God, it's happening so soon,

0:08:11next Friday, September 17th from 12 to 8 p.m. Eastern Time, that is US Eastern Time at twitch.tv/relayfm.

0:08:22We are having an increasing amount of meetings and calls and getting everything put together.

0:08:28Starting this Sunday, I'm going to be breaking down Mega Studio and rebuilding it in its podcast-a-thon

0:08:33glory. So tune in and help us support St. Jude. Donate today at stjude.org/relay. Let's cure

0:08:40childhood cancer together. And I will be on that podcast-a-thon with a game show. We actually have

0:08:49so many people who wanted to be involved, so many Relay hosts that we're recording two game shows.

0:08:53I'm not quite sure. One will probably go in the podcast-a-thon and one will probably be posted as

0:08:59a bonus somewhere else. Not quite sure about that, but we recorded the first one this weekend and it

0:09:03went pretty well, I thought. So I'm looking forward to editing that together and getting it in a

0:09:08podcast-a-thon shape and appearing on the podcast-a-thon. Biggest ever. Of course.

0:09:15stjude.org/relay. As a programming note, so it's Monday the 6th right now.

0:09:22I think it's fair to assume that there is going to be an iPhone event next Tuesday as we record this.

0:09:30I think the most likely scenario is that on the tomorrow, as we record this, tomorrow or Wednesday

0:09:38people are going to get emails saying, "Hey, you're cordially invited to watch a video stream."

0:09:44And at that point we have a problem because we don't have an episode until the event.

0:09:52And we always like to do a draft. And so during COVID times, we've basically been put in this

0:09:59position where we have to get to do an extra special bonus draft episode of Upgrade.

0:10:06So if that is the case, if invites go out this week and the iPhone event is going to be on the

0:10:1214th of September, which is the expectation, we'll be releasing a bonus episode with a draft

0:10:18probably on Friday of this week, so the 10th. If that doesn't happen this week, it will happen the

0:10:23week after probably. Unless of course Apple give a two-week notice, but that's unlikely.

0:10:28Wouldn't that be nice? So basically what we're saying now is if you hear that Apple is doing

0:10:32an event next week and you're wondering about the Upgrade draft, just check your podcast player

0:10:38starting sort of later on Friday or through the weekend or even Monday morning and you will get

0:10:44that draft episode. And then assuming that they're doing the event on Tuesday, we will be back on

0:10:48Tuesday after the event to talk about what Apple announced. Well, a little scheduling, a little

0:10:54housekeeping for podcasts, you know, just there'll be a bonus episode because we don't get two weeks

0:10:58notice anymore. It will be live streamed as usually we would do with the draft, we'll be

0:11:03live streaming that and of course we'll be live streaming with the post event coverage. You can

0:11:09always listen live at relay.fm/live and the chat usually occurs in the relay.fm members Discord,

0:11:15which you can get access to. If you sign up for Upgrade Plus, go to getupgradeplus.com,

0:11:19you get access to the Discord along with tons of other benefits including longer ad-free episodes

0:11:24of Upgrade every single week. It's true, we talk about all sorts of wacky stuff in our bonus content.

0:11:30Last week I think we did a really good job of our call-in episode. I was really happy with how it

0:11:36came together and you wrote a really good article on Six Colors about all of the many, many tools

0:11:43that we use to put it together. Most of which are by Rogue Amoeba. Yeah, I heard from several people

0:11:50and I've had this question before about like how did you put that together and so I detailed it in

0:11:55that post. There's just, there's a lot in there because we are, I mean the short version of it is

0:12:02I have to use Farrago which is their soundboard app. I use Loopback to create a virtual audio

0:12:10input that is both my microphone and the output from the Farrago app and I have to set Zoom

0:12:16to use that as my microphone so that you can hear the sound effects or in this case the clips

0:12:21as well as my voice. And then I use Audio Hijack which we use normally to record the show but I

0:12:28have a special block of Audio Hijack recording setup thingies that records my audio on one track

0:12:35and the sound effects on another track so that instead, and in fact this is what happened after

0:12:40the show, you're like oh, oh no your file doesn't have the sound effects and I'm gonna have to drop

0:12:45in all three, you know, two dozen questions by hand and they said no. There's also, look in there,

0:12:51there's another track that's just the sound effects which is great because then you put that in

0:12:55and they're all synced up and so we, you know, it's a whole thing we had to do in order to get to it

0:13:01and if you've ever wondered what one of Myke's Logic projects looks like for Upgrade, there's

0:13:05a screenshot of it in there too because you were very kind enough to send me a screenshot of your

0:13:10Logic project. That I was actually benefited from my new weird and wonderful system for this so

0:13:17I now, since I started recording at my studio, I have this worry that I'm gonna record the show,

0:13:27I'm gonna go home and then there's an error in the show. Right. And then what am I gonna do, right?

0:13:33What am I gonna come back and then fix it? Like, you know, I don't live within walking distance,

0:13:38it's a trip to get here as a commute. So I have created since a new system where all of my

0:13:45recordings get saved directly to Dropbox. Everything is in Dropbox 100% including like,

0:13:52what I'm recording right now is being saved by Audio Hijack into a Dropbox folder so it's

0:13:58constantly uploading. Everything just stays in Dropbox so when you asked me that question,

0:14:05I was at home and so I was able to just go to the project in my Dropbox folder,

0:14:10just open it up and take the screenshot because it was all there for me.

0:14:13That's very nice. And the other thing I detailed in here just for people who are curious, the way

0:14:18we did the call-in show was with a Dropbox file request which is a feature that they added a few

0:14:24years ago and I love it so much. It's such a great feature, I think it's kind of unheralded but the

0:14:28idea is you can take a Dropbox folder basically and make it a file request and or maybe it's the

0:14:36reverse, you make a file request, it makes a folder in your Dropbox and it gives you a URL that you

0:14:40can give to people and when they go to that link, they get a little box that says, "drag your file

0:14:48in here or click to choose it" and it uploads the file and puts it in that folder in your Dropbox.

0:14:55And I use this for all of my podcast file transfer now. It's really instead of having to deal with

0:15:02inviting somebody to a shared folder or something like that, you just give them this link and they

0:15:06upload the file and so we used that for the questions. - Or like hoping someone will upload

0:15:12their audio and then remember to send you the link when they're done or anything like that.

0:15:16- Right, right. This is the most efficient way by far to do that and it's a feature that I really

0:15:22love and it's one of the features really keeping me on Dropbox is this feature I would not, I don't

0:15:28want to give it up so I'm not going to. - Yeah and what was really great about it because it just

0:15:32creates a folder in your Dropbox account, Jason could invite me to that folder so I also got all

0:15:37the clips. - That's right and then so we were doing a real Dropbox kind of workflow there where you

0:15:41were editing the clips and then I kind of de-noised and de-echoed a couple of the clips and then I put

0:15:48them in for Argo and it was all just kind of happening in Dropbox. That was a lot of fun. So

0:15:53that's the behind the scenes of how that worked. I wish it was simpler to do something like playing

0:15:58audio on a podcast. It's not but we've kind of got a system now so that's good. - One of the apps

0:16:02that I used that's in the post made by Rogan Beaver is an app called Fission, F-I-S-S-I-O-N,

0:16:07like nuclear fission. It is a very lightweight MP3 editor. It does a couple of interesting things.

0:16:15It does but you can do a bunch of MP3 editing without needing to re-encode which is surprisingly

0:16:21rare as a feature. - That's the biggest feature I would say is that everything else when if you

0:16:26have an edit you need to make to an MP3 you've got to like go back to the original or if you

0:16:30don't have the original you have to convert it into a lossless file and then edit it and then

0:16:35save it back out so you're double encoding it and it's no good. Fission just edits the MP3. It never

0:16:41converts it into another format. - So you're not going to change the quality of the audio or

0:16:45anything and it's an app that I use for very like just very quick lightweight editing tasks like for

0:16:50what I was doing with the clips it's just like cutting the ends off them or you know like cutting

0:16:54out maybe a gap or two. Well, Rogan Beaver just announced that this application which was their

0:17:03last app available in the Mac App Store will no longer be available in the Mac App Store. I'd like

0:17:08to read a quote from Rogan Beaver. Despite a decade of feedback from countless developers and users

0:17:14Apple has made scant few changes and the store remains beset with issues. When you couple the

0:17:20many shortcomings and issues of Apple's restrictive policies that preclude most of our software from

0:17:25appearing there the Mac App Store is clearly a poor fit for us. With the removal of Fission we

0:17:31no longer have any products within the Mac App Store. - Yep, it's you know it's like Apple was

0:17:39making an effort to get some people in the Mac App Store but it didn't really seem to change the

0:17:46trajectory. When the Mac App Store started I think all of us thought it was going to follow

0:17:52the trajectory of the iOS App Store and it was going to be a big deal and it was going to drive

0:17:58Mac software sales and it was going to be a great place for Mac developers to go and it's turned out

0:18:03to not be that and in fact after the last few years maybe even the last few months but definitely

0:18:14the last few years I'm starting to think that the lesson the Mac App Store has taught us

0:18:19is that the only reason anybody puts up with the iOS App Store is because there's no alternative

0:18:27and when there's an alternative nobody puts up with the app store right like that you could

0:18:32interpret the reaction the Mac App Store has gotten to be an indictment of the fact that

0:18:39the iOS App Store is only successful because it's the only game in town. - They should do what

0:18:45Microsoft's doing I think with Windows 11 just everything can be in the App Store doesn't and

0:18:50you can use your own payment processors it's just this is the place you go to get apps. - Well they

0:18:55basically turned it into a catalog of Windows software instead of a curated hosted by the vendor

0:19:03store they turned it into a catalog. - They're still doing curation though like they Microsoft is doing

0:19:09curation there will be a curated part but the idea is just like no matter who you are like what type

0:19:15of app you make I mean it's eventually going to be Android apps as well you can just put it on the

0:19:20on the Windows App Store I think it's called the Microsoft Store I don't remember what it's called

0:19:25it's one of those names but it's just available and you can just go there and get it you know like

0:19:29like Adobe's putting all their apps in it but they're going to continue using their own payment

0:19:33processors I think that's the right way to go just this is the one place for software but Apple's not

0:19:40going to do that. - Nope. - This is slightly follow-up but also a topic Apple have delayed their CSAM

0:19:48detection tools this is a quote from Apple like a press quote last month we announced plans for

0:19:54features intended to help protect children from predators who use communication tools to recruit

0:19:59and exploit them and limit the spread of child sexual abuse material based on feedback from

0:20:05customers advocacy groups researchers and others we have decided to take additional time over the

0:20:10coming months to collect input and make improvements before releasing these critical important child

0:20:16safety features did you see this coming? - Well it's hard it's always hard to say exactly what Apple

0:20:23is going to do with issues like this and whether they're going to just kind of grit their teeth

0:20:28or whether they're going to delay it and not tell anybody or whether they're going to actually delay

0:20:32it but so I was a little surprised but at the same time this was the thing they should have done

0:20:38so I'm glad that they did it because this rollout was a disaster like it was a disaster on all

0:20:46fronts it was a disaster because they got their messaging wrong they conflated features that they

0:20:51shouldn't have conflated and that led to confusion and they had to do the many FAQ files and continue

0:20:56furnishing various executives up the chain to explain how it worked and then they have all

0:21:02these groups who are experts in this field saying the neural hash thing has a lot of problems and

0:21:08and we are skeptical that you can actually use it in this way and you know users being upset about

0:21:14the idea of Apple having software on their device that looks at their looks at their images even

0:21:20though it Apple was like no but it's in the pipeline it's in the pipeline right because

0:21:24there's a disconnect between what Apple as we talked about a few weeks ago what Apple views

0:21:28this feature as being and what it what it is or at least how many other people view this feature so

0:21:34I think it's really smart of them to basically say not yet we're listening we know this is a problem

0:21:45they what they didn't do is say they aren't going to do it they said they're going to

0:21:49wait and collect input and make improvements right so that's good because all they've been doing is

0:21:59damage control since they announced this thing it is an indictment of the fact that they could

0:22:06have done this in a different way and been instead of just surprising everybody with this feature

0:22:10that did not need to be a surprise they could have announced that they had they were working on this

0:22:15and they could have worked with people in the field both on the technical side and in the in

0:22:21in the CSAM you know field in general to get more ahead of this but instead they took so many people

0:22:27by surprise which seems totally unnecessary so you know it's a good thing that they're unwinding it

0:22:33but why did they get in this position to begin with it wasn't like a cool product right like

0:22:38wow so cool so thank you for keeping it secret you know surprise like you know they as you say

0:22:45they should have engaged with people on it or they should have positioned this as a thing that they

0:22:50were looking for feedback on and like I've seen some people saying like oh they you know they

0:22:55they were looking for feedback no they weren't apple considered this done yeah it was done when

0:23:01they showed it off they were not uh they were not expecting feedback they were expecting like we

0:23:06talked about before they they were expecting look how smart we are yeah they were expecting praise

0:23:12for how they did this amazing technology that that totally uh it eliminates the idea of scanning on

0:23:21the server and therefore is a huge user privacy win that still stops the bad guys and everybody

0:23:27lets praise apple and uh it was a swing and a miss right like that's not what happened at all

0:23:33they're having a similar bit of pushback right now I've seen to the um id card thing that they're

0:23:40starting to roll out I've been seeing some people uh I've seen neil i patel has been having some

0:23:45great I've been seeing him talk about it on twitter a bunch you know just saying like the

0:23:49idea of putting your id card uh on your device seems like a concerning thing to many people so

0:23:59I'm a little more skeptical of this one of the backlash to it because first off apple announced

0:24:03this in june and it's like people are bored and they're trying to gin up something now that it's

0:24:09september um because I think it comes from a potentially deliberate misunderstanding of how

0:24:17this feature works because my understanding is that the id card feature is an nfc feature it's

0:24:23a tap to present feature and that there's nothing on the phone itself that is that you have to hand

0:24:30your phone over and you don't have to unlock your phone like this feature seems to have been built

0:24:35to address all of the criticism that's coming two and a half months later after the announcement

0:24:42about the feature and so you know you got to look at the details and I understand the idea of like

0:24:48building a feature where you have to unlock your phone and hand it to the cops it's like well

0:24:52that's terrible you shouldn't do that but this feature doesn't appear to be that this feature

0:24:56appears to allow you to present necessary information and it's only it's a limited set

0:25:02of information to prove your identity and through a tap and so in the end you know the the cop that

0:25:10pulls you over isn't going to have an nfc reader so you're just going to need to show them your

0:25:14your drive your actual driver's license but you may be able to tap to do this at the airport

0:25:18that's sort of what they're going for here so I thought it was interesting because a lot of

0:25:21the criticism I saw about the id feature seemed to be stuff that is actually not what's happening

0:25:27but again it's similar in the sense that maybe apple didn't do as good a job as they needed to do

0:25:32to to address potential issues and I don't remember if there was a WWDC session about this or not that

0:25:42would also be on them that if they if they didn't detail all the ways that they've anticipated all

0:25:47of these issues then that's a that's a mistake I saw a piece that speculated about whose fault this

0:25:53is I forget who wrote the piece I don't know if it was Mark Gurman or somebody else but it was it was

0:25:59speculating or maybe it was Ben Thompson it was it was basically is this a communication failure

0:26:04or is this a because they've got a new head of communications at apple or is this a you know

0:26:10technical failure policy failure something like that and I think it's absolutely a communication

0:26:17failure it may also be those other things but the way this stuff has been communicated especially

0:26:22the CSAM thing but you could potentially even say it about the driver's license thing I think is

0:26:28like they could have done a vastly better job if they had somebody in there who was saying this is

0:26:35not this is how this is going to be perceived and I don't think being a head of communications and

0:26:40they have a new one I don't think the job of the head of communications is to be a nice conduit for

0:26:50whatever the people on the inside of apple want to send out through the tube to the people outside of

0:26:55apple like that's not the job of a head of communications the job of the head of communications

0:26:59is to say you need to understand how this is going to be perceived we need to do this rollout in a

0:27:05very specific way so that we anticipate what's going to happen and prevent it from happening and

0:27:13they aren't doing that like the CSAM thing that's a communications failure it may also be a technical

0:27:18failure is it the fault of the new head of communications I don't know because I don't know

0:27:22if the head of new head of communications was like waving their arms and saying no no no no no

0:27:26don't do it like this and they were told no we're doing it like this or whether they were like yeah

0:27:30sure great we'll roll this out nobody will care because that is that would show if that's the case

0:27:36a fundamental misunderstanding of how apple announcements are regarded by the world so I

0:27:42don't know I'm a little more skeptical about the id thing because I feel like that's a little bit

0:27:47of just trying to make while while you know while we're getting on apple for stuff that they

0:27:52announced in june let's get let's get on them for this whereas it may not be that big a deal but

0:27:57uh but still regardless this is an issue yeah I don't get lost in the weeds on that that was a

0:28:04aside from me I I put a link in the show notes to what neil i betel said people can read it and

0:28:09make their own uh mind up about it but getting back to the CSAM thing itself I'm happy they're

0:28:15doing this like if they do genuinely believe that they can make the system better honestly I think

0:28:25that they're gonna go away and try and find a better way to communicate it I think that's

0:28:29what they're gonna do here yeah I think they want to lock down the technical issues right because

0:28:36it's unclear to me like there's somebody who wrote a paper about neural hash neural hashing of photos

0:28:45and stuff who said that they they felt like apple's system was ignoring all of the things that they

0:28:53wrote about about how the system didn't work and there's a real question about like what's the

0:28:58truth about the people who say technically this is problematic and when apple says it's fine and is

0:29:04it because the people who technically say it's problematic don't understand fully what apple is

0:29:09doing here or is it because it is problematic and apple didn't anticipate it and wasn't paying

0:29:15attention to the researchers on the outside who are writing about this stuff and so that that's

0:29:19part of it too it's not just about re-communicating this and rolling it out in a different way

0:29:24but it's also about you know engaging with these experts and trying to you know even if they

0:29:30disagree like understanding what their argument is and being able to counter it and ideally you

0:29:36get them on your side and say oh well now we've seen what apple is doing and they made a couple

0:29:39of changes and we actually think that this is a good approach that's the ideal end goal is to kind

0:29:44of co-opt your critics and have them say well now that we've seen it we actually like it i will say

0:29:49again you could have probably brought them in there's no reason you couldn't have done this

0:29:54before you announced it or as you announced it in general before you gave out specifics but we're

0:30:00here we are where we are now so we'll see but i think it's more than just a communication challenge

0:30:06because they do have some technical criticisms of how they did it in terms of false positives

0:30:11and things like that i do wonder with this feature if it's one of those situations that like the lid

0:30:17has been lifted so there's kind of it like you know like the jar's been opened now you can't you

0:30:23can't put it back in because is it always going to be considered like no matter what way they talk

0:30:28about it like this is the thing that apple's using to spy on us right has it gotten away from them

0:30:34in a way that they wouldn't be able to control even if it comes back comes back later with like

0:30:40hey look at all these great things that we did instead what do you think i i don't know

0:30:45we've talked about this so much like this is a this is a misstep they're resetting they have

0:30:52the opportunity to they have the opportunity to run and hide if they want to right this could be

0:30:57one of those things that just disappears and when it comes back later it's a totally different

0:31:01solution um and then and the way they'll they'll spin it is well we listened right but i don't know

0:31:09what they're gonna do and i don't know where they're gonna go with this because honestly

0:31:12because the root of this also seems baffling right when when it was announced where our response was

0:31:17like why now like is this in anticipation of some other move that they're gonna make or some

0:31:23regulation that's gonna come in and so i i don't entirely understand other than speculation about

0:31:29it the root of this whole thing so now they've pulled it back where do we go from here i don't

0:31:36know yeah i have no idea but they they messed it up yeah oh yeah this is a this is a complete

0:31:45unforced error i think and and again the the fact that this is not a secret product

0:31:53this is not an iphone like the rollout of this just it didn't need to be this way like for them

0:32:04to i think it shows you that they're still within apple a lot of these super secretive we're going

0:32:09to go our own way we're not going to look at what anybody else is doing you know this attitude that

0:32:15they've got and in this case like for completely unnecessary reasons and it bit them so are they

0:32:23going to make changes because of that i don't know it would seem like you probably should but i do

0:32:28think it goes back to probably a level of hubris about like they're just so proud of how clever

0:32:35their solution to this problem is that they want to spring it on the world and then they got laid

0:32:41low because it wasn't maybe as clever as they thought this episode of upgrade is brought to you

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0:34:36relay fm so there's been a bunch of app store related changes uh that i want to go through well

0:34:44there was one big one everyone knows what we're talking about it's the okay to change from in japan

0:34:49we're going to talk about that in a little bit because there's some other stuff that we need to

0:34:53get through before so i wanted to give just a quick recap of the thing from last week just so

0:34:58we can set the stage for the many changes to the app store that's being demanded by many governments

0:35:04and in and institutions around the world so last week's thing the thing we spoke about on the last

0:35:10episode is the u.s developers thing this was the class action lawsuit that basically changed nothing

0:35:17apple made a bunch of clarifications and confirmations like hey you're allowed to email

0:35:21your own customers if you want and offer developers cash to prevent them from suing apple in the future

0:35:27right so that was that thing yeah then five days later the government of south korea passed a law

0:35:34that is intended to force apple and google to allow for third-party payment options in third-party apps

0:35:42for in-app purchases so once you've downloaded an app from the app store if you want to pay for

0:35:47something inside of that application you should be able to use any payment service either google or

0:35:53apples or you can use your own right like think fortnight right like what fortnight did that whole

0:35:59thing one of the reasons we're here right because of everything that epic did companies that do not

0:36:05comply with this rule will be fined up to three percent of their south korea revenue so everything

0:36:11a company the company makes in that country in a year they can be fined three percent of that total

0:36:16this is a quote from apple about this ruling the telecommunications business act will put users who

0:36:23purchase digital goods from other sources at risk of fraud undermine their privacy protections make

0:36:28it difficult to manage their purchases and features like ask to buy and parental controls will become

0:36:34less effective we believe user trust in apps or purchases will decrease as a result of this

0:36:39legislation from this quote doesn't seem like they're going to fight it right like i was

0:36:45expecting apple's quote to be like you know like ah you know as they will do sometimes that they

0:36:50will say that they will try and push back on something but it doesn't sound like that's the

0:36:55case maybe they know they don't have the opportunity to do it i don't know yeah i i mean it does show

0:37:01you that like if a if a law gets passed they're gonna they can complain all they want but they

0:37:05have to follow it right they want to continue doing business in that country right it's right

0:37:10and then there's limitations and they can push back and they can negotiate but i guess what i

0:37:14would say is i don't i think this is not as big a deal um it's also interesting that this is a law

0:37:20that targeted google primarily yeah okay um and so it's probably a pro samsung kind of thing anyway

0:37:28it hits apple however i'm not convinced about the implications of this being enormous mostly because

0:37:36it's just in korea and while the ball may continue rolling like i can see ways you know how so russia

0:37:43said you got to pre-install apps and apple didn't pre-install apps apple brought up a thing during

0:37:48the launch process that says here are russian apps would you like to download them and then you can

0:37:53just not and and russia's regulators apparently decided that was good enough right like that's

0:37:58that's all they were looking at so i which i think it's kind of impressive that apple convinced them

0:38:03to be okay with that and not be like no they have to download they have to preload so what does

0:38:08apple do in korea i think it's going to be some more of this kind of very careful artful

0:38:15implementation that makes it makes them within the law without it being something that's easy

0:38:22on developers so like for example i don't think this law says anything about what like apple

0:38:31could say hey developers there's a new law in korea if you want to implement your own outside

0:38:38of apple in-app purchases for korea here's what you need to do you need to turn off your app in

0:38:43korea and make a new app separate that implements the in-app you know your your out of app purchasing

0:38:50system and submit that for only korea and then we'll approve it and it'll be limited to korea

0:38:56and you also have to i mean it's unclear it's like you also have to have in-app purchases as an

0:39:00option because it you know the law doesn't say we can't require that but you also can offer out of

0:39:06app purchases but only in the korean version of your app which you need to keep separate right

0:39:10now that's jerky and makes the job much harder for developers but apple's not limited like apple

0:39:18my understanding is apple can do that right they can make it as painful as possible for you to take

0:39:23advantage of this law in korea and the net result what i'm saying is the net result is probably

0:39:30going to be that most app developers unless they've got an enormous amount of in-app purchase revenue

0:39:34in korea are just not going to bother and they're going to keep it the way it is and keep their app

0:39:39in the korean store and those who want to go through this apple's not going to make it easy

0:39:42for them apple's going to do the letter of the law and nothing more that's my guess unless apple

0:39:47thinks that this is going to keep happening um but even then if another country passed a law like

0:39:53this apple would say okay everybody hey developers now that app that you've got in korea you can also

0:39:59make it available in this other country because it's the law there or maybe not maybe they would

0:40:03say hey app developers make another version of your app that's just for this country because

0:40:08again they don't need to go along with this and i and their attitude seems to be very much that

0:40:12they're not going to so i'm not convinced this is going to be a huge deal right because it's in korea

0:40:17it's this one very particular law and i feel like apple has enough uh weight to put on their app

0:40:23store processes that it will be an unpleasant thing that you have to do in order to get your

0:40:30own payment system in that's my theory so i agree with you but here's the question i'll pose right

0:40:37my understanding and especially has come from the u.s thing is that most of apple's money from

0:40:44in-app purchases is generated by a small amount of companies yeah because there are a small amount of

0:40:51companies that make the most money yeah i would assume that all of those companies would be the

0:40:57exact companies to put effort in to do this thing yep and so i don't know how much app store revenue

0:41:05is generated by south korea i'm sure it's a chunk i don't know how big a portion but they could start

0:41:11to feel it from there and my expectation would be if apple are going to have some level of

0:41:18infrastructure in place to make this the case for south korea or you know a rule or whatever right

0:41:25they're going to put something into effect to make this possible for people sure to to comply

0:41:32with in south korea other countries could look at it and be like yeah we'll do that

0:41:36well that's possible but i would say i don't think apple has to build anything here this is

0:41:42essentially a policy decision this is not rejecting apps that go outside for payment

0:41:48it is possible that they'll be like oh well look apple's complying in korea so we can do it here

0:41:55and they'll just do what they did in korea and that's probably true and they probably will do

0:41:59that so if other countries want to do this like we potentially have a template for what it would

0:42:04look like i guess what i'm saying is apple's not going to make it easy on anybody i predict like

0:42:10that that they're going to make it they're going to drag their feet they're going to make they're

0:42:15going to follow the letter of the law but nothing more than that because that seems to be their

0:42:19approach to all of this stuff so uh it's possible that they won't you know maybe they'll be bigger

0:42:23than that and be like okay well you can make it so that if your locale is korea but my guess if i

0:42:30were i mean honestly if i were employed to do this at apple i would be like no separate korean app

0:42:34walled off we want to we don't want to see any of that code that could potentially be used anywhere

0:42:40else in the world separate approval separate approval you've got to flag it that you're doing

0:42:45it for korea and then we'll go through our process and then we'll approve it but yes i mean if you're

0:42:50making millions and millions and millions of dollars equivalent in korea um then of course

0:42:57you're going to do this right if you if you can claw that money back i just feel like what apple

0:43:01will try to do is make it that everybody who makes a little bit of money in korea with in-app

0:43:05purchase is going to be like nah it's not worth it it's not worth going through it and i feel like

0:43:11the apple will make it so that it's not worth it for most developers to to even follow this approach

0:43:16so again because there are so many of these things going on this rule this law is just for in-app

0:43:23purchase doesn't have any requirement for other purchases so if you are a paid upfront app you

0:43:29use apple and google's payment systems if you're a paid upfront app that uses in-app purchase you pay

0:43:35on google or apple's system but then the in-app purchase can then be from a third party same if

0:43:41you're free right in some ways ideologically i think i agree with this ruling like it's also not

0:43:49asking for third-party absolutes or anything like there's always something that i get stuck on which

0:43:53is like after the initial purchase after apple was delivered the application you know why should they

0:44:00have the rights to any purchase that between what is now the customer of this company you know like

0:44:09why do they continue to keep getting a cut if they're not providing anything for these developers

0:44:15which a lot of times they're not providing anything for these developers you know like

0:44:19stuff is coming down from the servers of epic or whoever right why do apple keep why do apple have

0:44:27the right to continue taking 30 of every in-app purchase well i mean what you're really doing is

0:44:33saying why does apple have the right to take money out of transactions on the iphone because

0:44:39the truth is the business model today is largely your app is free and then you pay inside the app

0:44:46so if you make in-app purchases free it is going to potentially take a huge amount of revenue away

0:44:55from apple now so then the question is like what is what is apple what rights does apple have to

0:45:02skim all transactions that occur in its universe and you know apple would tell you that they

0:45:09created all this value with the iphone i would argue that the iphone's value was also created

0:45:12by the app developers that without an app store the iphone isn't a success uh certainly not the

0:45:18success it's been that apple takes 30 percent or now sometimes 15 of what developers have made for

0:45:23the last decade plus but imagine a world where developers took 30 of iphone revenue for the last

0:45:30decade plus right it's it's more and they don't get that so even though that they're a huge

0:45:36participant in this and it comes back like what we were talking before it comes back to the fact

0:45:41that apple has an attitude and i think it comes from the corporate culture and i think it is based

0:45:45in steve jobs and the post almost going out of business apple which is take every dollar off the

0:45:51table and developers are lucky that we um tolerate them and that apple creates all value and

0:46:00developers are um and then this was steve jobs's attitude about third-party developers way back

0:46:05before the app store which is developers are kind of parasites living off the goodness of apple i've

0:46:09said this before it's absolutely with steve jobs's attitude is everybody who's involved in the apple

0:46:14ecosystem that isn't apple is just taking money away from apple that belongs to apple because

0:46:20apple really created everything that is good and that everything that remains it's just like you

0:46:25get some scraps what you you should be happy that we're giving you you know your percentage here

0:46:29because we could take even more because really it's all about us and that attitude still exists

0:46:33within apple and the only reason they're changing it at all seems to be because uh they're feeling

0:46:38the pressure so you know why why does apple charge rent like i i think apple's in-app purchases system

0:46:45is really good and that apple should compete with with alternatives based on when they say look the

0:46:55reason we do it the way we do it is because we want to keep our customers safe and they said this

0:46:59in another thing that we're going to be talking about in a minute they said this they said

0:47:03like people like the safety that they feel in the app store and and and working with apple well

0:47:08that's true but there's also no alternative like you could compete on that you could compete as

0:47:14apple and say our way is easier our way is safer you've got your credit card at apple apple charges

0:47:19your credit card apple doesn't leak your information to other people this is why you should

0:47:23use apple system and they could also very easily unless a law bars it and i doubt a law ever would

0:47:29say if they open it up to third parties you also need to offer apple's method so choose you can use

0:47:37apple's method or your method but you let them choose and then they're competing on features

0:47:42they're competing on trust in apple they're competing on ease of the transaction not having

0:47:48to go re-enter your cards somewhere because it's already stored at apple and developers are going

0:47:52to like that too so you know that's that's my feeling is that apple ought to compete based on

0:47:58the quality of their service and not on uh just taking rent essentially on every transaction that

0:48:05exists because although the the counter argument is always going to be oh yeah but apple did create

0:48:11this ecosystem apple does work on you know they build the apis and they build these phones and

0:48:15all of that and so why should they not get a cut my counter argument would be that the developers

0:48:21who created all the apps on the platform are also a participant in the success of the iphone and

0:48:26apple isn't sharing any of its iphone revenue with them right and so for me this seems like uh that

0:48:35apple is double dipping essentially they they are they are acting as if they're the only creators of

0:48:40value in the in the ecosystem and they're not and so why not and and that they're obviously not

0:48:46confident in their ability to compete on functionality which i think is dumb because

0:48:49i think they can so yeah i i am not a fan of apple mandatorily taking plus it degrades the user

0:48:57experience right leaving aside the fact that uh we're going to be talking about reader apps in a

0:49:02little bit and like that is a a terrible user experience too so so yeah if if i have to choose

0:49:08i'm going to say i don't think that apple should have to mandatorily take a percentage of sales

0:49:14inside apps i think they should have to offer their system and compete on merit john grubber

0:49:20wrote a uh a blog post about this and he was talking about kind of cutting into some of the

0:49:26stuff that they were saying around privacy and you know like they're talking about like parental

0:49:31controls that kind of stuff and he mentioned and something that i agree with apple could just

0:49:38create a bunch of apis and tools for payment processes to work with inside their own systems

0:49:44if they wanted to yeah this is this is one of those false equivalencies where where they're

0:49:49like oh but if we did that there would be no security it's like or you could build security

0:49:55but that makes their argument less dramatic right you could build in uh all of the same apis for

0:50:03monitoring transactions and for parental controls and say you have to implement these for your

0:50:08payment system right they could totally do that unless the law bars it but it doesn't seem like

0:50:12it does it would be part of like being on the platform it's like yeah you can keep your money

0:50:16but you have to tell us you know you have to check and see if a parental control is on this

0:50:20because we're not going to let people who are you know kids are not allowed to drain their parents

0:50:25credit card they have we have a system for that and you have to hook into it but they would have

0:50:29to do the work but they could do the work they could absolutely do the work so that was south

0:50:34korea and we were like oh man more going on oh little did we know that it was more coming

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0:52:02really boil the frog um you end up with a uh an idea of like how does your thing compare has it

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0:53:03for their support of this show and relay fm so apple announced via press release that they have

0:53:09come to an agreement with the japan fair trade commission to end an investigation about the app

0:53:14store i've got some quotes that i want to read and maybe we can from this press release maybe we can

0:53:20stop and talk about them as we go through the update will allow developers of reader apps to

0:53:26include an in-app link to their website for users to set up or manage an account one do you want to

0:53:32stop already or can i continue single well i think it's an important point and we'll get we can get

0:53:39to in more detail later but the and a lot of the people who are saying wow this is a big change

0:53:43i think maybe missed this which is it is a link so this basically solves the netflix opening or

0:53:52spotify or whatever opening screen where it says log in and you're like well how do i get an account

0:53:57and there's a you can put a link the dumbest rule ever of all time where they're like well you can

0:54:02link but not to anything that suggests anything about payment and all that and they're basically

0:54:06dropping that and saying yes you can get one you get one link for setup and managing an account one

0:54:13single link yeah well single comes later at this point they said and it's confusing that they say

0:54:20it in different ways but and and link right it's a it's a singular we're already at a singular here

0:54:25okay continue apple will apply this change globally to all reader apps on the store

0:54:30hooray this was a relief because like let's not continue to make this increasingly more

0:54:35complicated right let's not let's not make a japan rule you can have a link in japan you can have a

0:54:40purchase in korea you can have a installed apps in russia but that's it and you can send emails if

0:54:46you're in america you know yep uh reader apps provide previously purchased content or content

0:54:54subscriptions for digital magazines newspapers books audio music and video yes because developers

0:55:00of reader apps do not offer in-app digital goods and services for purchase apple agreed with the

0:55:06jftc to let developers of these apps share a single link to their website to help users set

0:55:11up and manage their account i have like 20 problems with this sentence uh-huh like they would like to

0:55:20offer in-app digital goods and services for purchase but you won't let they would developers

0:55:25of reader apps do offer in-app digital goods but you have to purchase them outside and then they

0:55:30appear in these applications right and that's where we get the share a single link to their

0:55:36website to help users set up a manager account so the setup is the important part right because it

0:55:42can get a bit confusing if earlier on it's like um they're talking about like you know to for men

0:55:47all that kind of stuff and it gets a bit confusing but basically the way i read this is that you know

0:55:53you could open the spotify app and then have a link where you could then go and sign up for

0:55:58spotify then come back and log in right and and right now you could you could currently do it

0:56:05but what it would do is it would put you on a page that that um you link to that doesn't it cannot

0:56:12not only can it not mention that you can put in your credit card at spotify.com and sign up that

0:56:16way and never pay apple it couldn't link to any page that links to any page at all following all

0:56:27links that mentions your ability to purchase spotify outside of the app store that was the

0:56:34rule so this rule is you can just link to somewhere it's fine and and so it is big in the sense that

0:56:42if you're i don't know who this person is but if you're somebody who's like oh spotify that sounds

0:56:47great i'll download the app i open the app and it says log in and you're like oh no they've outfoxed

0:56:52me i'm totally confused what do i do i guess i won't use spotify because i don't have an account

0:56:57and i don't know what i would do well what you do is you go to spotify.com but now there'll be a

0:57:02link there that says go to spotify.com to sign up for this account and you'll go there and then they

0:57:09can also put that link when you're logged in and say manage my account on spotify.com and you click

0:57:15there and or tap there and it will take you to spotify.com and of course both of those links will

0:57:21allow you to pay put in your credit card and pay as part of the login process so on that level it

0:57:28is kind of big because it's allowing developers to put us an onboarding workflow in the app again

0:57:36that allows them to lead a user through setting up a username and password and putting in a credit

0:57:41card on the web and then going back to the app logging in and they're paying and they're not

0:57:48paying apple so that's the that's the big change what it doesn't do and you mentioned it these are

0:57:53reader apps they so kindle is a good example right and and the problem here is that these apps have

0:58:01overhead they're they're they're reselling things they're they're the middleman and then apple wants

0:58:07to also be the middleman and apple's 30 takes out all of the profit of the middleman from that or

0:58:16almost all right and so nobody does it and what this what this specifically says is you know you

0:58:25still can't do that the one link is there the one link rule is there specifically so that amazon

0:58:32can't put up a kindle store in their app and when you tap on a book it opens a web page with that

0:58:38book which you then buy and then it goes back to the kindle app and it downloads it apple's not

0:58:42allowing anything like that to happen so for subscriptions uh and for sign up for for user

0:58:50information but that's it before the change goes into effect in early 2022 apple will update its

0:58:58guidelines and review process to make sure users of reader apps continue to have a safe experience

0:59:03on the app store again like this is where a lot of the questions start right like what can be at

0:59:10the end of the link apple going to start reviewing web pages now right like will there be only certain

0:59:17language you can use i'm sure what i'm sure will they will developers have to create specific types

0:59:23of pages for uh apple ios customers going to we'll find out apple will also help developers of reader

0:59:32apps protect users when they link them to an external website to make purchases uh-huh what

0:59:38does that mean yeah and make purchases i guess that means essentially signing up and putting

0:59:44in your credit card somewhere my guess is that this is going to be app review like you said are

0:59:52they going to approve websites i think the answer is yes i think apple is going to want to see the

0:59:56link and they're going to want to see it in action and that they're going to want and the question is

1:00:01what are their standards there but they're going to want to approve that link and say yes this is

1:00:06acceptable use of our one link policy um which is weird right because what are the standards by

1:00:13which they judge that link what are the rules that you could break on that link i don't know

1:00:18i've already thought of a few for you okay lamb you you can get a job rejecting things at apple

1:00:24i guess very exciting go ahead the wording of the link the prominence of the link okay where it

1:00:32takes you yes what's on the web page the wording of the web page how or if it references apple

1:00:41how or if it references prices and pricing differences yep that might be it um i'll throw

1:00:50in a few that they could do okay privacy policy of the website yes payment processor used by the

1:00:58website just throwing it out there right like this apple could use this as a system to whitelist

1:01:05very specific companies and payment processors and say we don't think that that this payment

1:01:12processor is secure not saying they will do that but they could absolutely do that and privacy

1:01:16policy i think is an interesting one right where there would be like the website needs to we need

1:01:20to protect our users so if this website has a permissive privacy policy and it's leaking a

1:01:25bunch of information i'm sorry you need to change your policy or we're not going to let you link to

1:01:29your own website it could happen like i can imagine there's going to be a bunch of applications as

1:01:35well like large companies that are currently offering in-app purchase that stop now right

1:01:41i think about like youtube like you can buy a youtube premium with in-app purchase i actually

1:01:47think they charge more money if you do but you know yeah this is all like that right this is this is

1:01:54essentially not solving the problem of per item digital purchases in an app this is solving the

1:02:01problem of reader apps that have subscriptions because they had to pretend that there was no way

1:02:06unless you did an in-app purchase which nobody really wants to do and it's not that great

1:02:10like it it's a difficult business model for for if you're netflix or hulu or anybody else to do

1:02:16it that way or even youtube like it's it's hard um because a lot of your content your margins are

1:02:21are such that this is it's a very hard thing to do so you probably don't want to do it

1:02:24but pretending that there's no way to get to your account is not a great experience so like that's

1:02:33that's the that's the win here is being able to say not buy a kindle book in an app but to be able

1:02:39for even for the kindle app to say you know my my amazon account like not allowed until now just to

1:02:48tap and go out there so it's you know i don't consider this a big win at all i i know that

1:02:54there are a lot of analysts out there who are sort of like wow this is a huge step on apple's part

1:02:58this is like the bare minimum that apple should have done many years ago to say wow the user

1:03:05experience where there's just a login screen and no explanation of how you get an account if you

1:03:09don't have one because apple wants to get an in-app purchase in this app and otherwise people

1:03:15are just going to have to wait and figure it out well that's that they should have done that ages

1:03:20ago so it's the bare minimum when what they should be doing in my opinion is allowing reader apps to

1:03:27do what those those video apps do because they did change this for one class right you if you

1:03:33go to amazon prime video that app you can like rent movies in it from amazon and it works so

1:03:39they they lowered the bar for that one particular class but they haven't done the same here i don't

1:03:45know so it seems like it seems like a very limited win for for people here well then you know you

1:03:51mentioned about reader apps i think first we have to get rid of that term because it's an incredibly

1:03:57arbitrary set of applications that apple have decided they want to give this access to because

1:04:03there's absolutely zero reason that it could not include gaming subscription services when not

1:04:08even allowed on the app store right well that that's one of the i think ironies of this is that

1:04:13reader app has been so distorted because i always viewed a reader app as an app in which you're

1:04:21reading media that included potentially a for purchase option and they've diluted it to mean

1:04:31like media consumption apps but not games which is like yeah to your point how is a subscription to a

1:04:40game streaming service appreciably different than a subscription to netflix like i can tell you

1:04:45reader apps means strategically beneficial classes of application to sure is what it means because

1:04:52they put whatever apps they need in there to help them right like spotify has given them trouble now

1:04:58music's a reader app we want netflix on the apple tv we want amazon prime on the apple tv these are

1:05:04now reader apps it's just whatever they need it to be right and games uh is not because they want

1:05:11to not have game streaming services on their platform and they make a lot of money from game

1:05:15in-app purchases and stuff like that so it's strategically beneficial for them not to have

1:05:20games classed as a reader app like without the like i just feel like that any type of application

1:05:28that offers a subscription service that is cross-platform should be allowed to take advantage

1:05:35of this so this goes to like spotify it goes to microsoft right if they want to do xcloud it goes

1:05:43to an app like todoist which is a multi-platform tool but is a subscription app that they you can

1:05:51pay them in many different ways i pay for my todoist subscription on the web they offer an

1:05:56app purchase but i signed up on the web and i pay there because it's cheaper it used to be and that

1:06:02was how i signed up for it like i don't you know without the iphone spotify would suffer just the

1:06:09same as any other like as todoist would suffer like it's i think it's way too complicated for

1:06:14anybody to try and say like oh this certain application needs this type of system where

1:06:22others don't i just don't think it's fair to categorize apps in this certain way i just think

1:06:27if a developer wants to create a cross-platform outside of app store system they should be included

1:06:32in the ability to add this link if they want to i don't know why there has to be this very specific

1:06:39type of application that gets classed as reader and that means they get benefits to others don't

1:06:46yeah plus the they're not a perfect match because some of them are like kindle although there is a

1:06:53subscription kindle unlimited but basically like something where it's you're buying a book and it's

1:06:59a or a comic book and it's a one-time purchase of something a la carte is very different than

1:07:05being a subscriber and being on for for everything like that you just get it you sign up and get it

1:07:12and yet they've just defined it this way and and apple's attitude toward these categories that

1:07:17apple defines is very much like so much of apple's responses in this space which is like

1:07:22look i don't make the rules again reader apps are reader apps right we all agree on that it's like

1:07:27well no you defined what the reader apps are and you define what those video apps are where you

1:07:31actually are letting people rent movies or buy movies from amazon using their amazon account

1:07:36and their amazon credit card you're already doing that for digital goods there may have been a time

1:07:42where reader apps could have been classed as like types of applications where they are catalogs of

1:07:48content that the business model cannot work because of licensing fees right if they have to

1:07:56pay the 30 but the problem is now all of these companies make original content too so that

1:08:02doesn't work either right like you can't say that for spotify now because they want you to listen to

1:08:07the podcasts that they own you can't say it for like amazon and audible because they make their

1:08:12own podcast as well netflix make all their own tv shows right like so they control and own everything

1:08:18so they are you know it doesn't work like that anymore this is we will make a rule that allows

1:08:22certain kinds of apps that we decide do this but not anything else that's that's really literally

1:08:28what it is right it is we have decided and the japan fair trade commission has agreed that for

1:08:37certain classes of apps we will do this very limited thing and that will get them off our back

1:08:43and make us look like we're listening to regulators well i just think it should be that the rules

1:08:48should be pretty simple hey if you want to offer your own payment service and do of all of the mess

1:08:53that that takes you can put the link in simple as and but we recommend that you use ours for these

1:09:0020 great reasons yep i think it's pretty clear that wagons are circling around apple like i know

1:09:05that this has been a thing where like it's been expected this is going to happen you know like

1:09:10there's been uh you know they everybody's set in front of congress and all that kind of stuff

1:09:13and we've been talking about it before then that you know like in the community that we're a part

1:09:18of people have been very aware of these kinds of issues for a long time because smaller companies

1:09:22and that kind of stuff but i am wondering now more than ever why not just make larger changes rather

1:09:30than dealing with these like two-bit cases in every single country right like going through

1:09:37every court in every government across the world and having this consistent headline after headline

1:09:44of apple giving in or apple like having to change this rule or is this fair like i just saw india's

1:09:51open to case now and they want similar similar to what south korea has asked for so they are

1:09:56actually your next example india is your next example after south korea of like the 30 thing

1:10:02for in-app purchases right and i just think like why like i don't know why we got we should never

1:10:08have gotten this far and now why are they playing every small game so we have discussed for a while

1:10:18now like the the risk apple has which is in having its business model broken because the momentum

1:10:28gathers and the business model gets broken at this point i feel like there is not like they're not

1:10:37so proactive and so afraid of that that they're willing to just roll out a bunch of changes

1:10:42and say we've listened and we hear you and we're going to do this and maybe their calculation there

1:10:48is that if they do it it's just going to result in a oh we got them on the run now boys let's

1:10:53let's get them for other stuff right like make it worse i'm not sure i believe that but i think that

1:10:59that could be an argument there i feel like though there we have one of two paths ahead of us here in

1:11:04terms of what apple's going to do one of them is that apple is doing all of this small potato stuff

1:11:09because apple is readying whether it's planning on rolling it out or it's an in case of emergency

1:11:17break glass kind of situation apple is readying their offer of app store reform and they're not

1:11:26ready for it yet so they're going to make incremental agreements in the meantime while

1:11:33they ready that or a slightly different version of that is apple has decided that their best strategy

1:11:43is to essentially buy off every regulator with a negotiated minimal change and that they feel the

1:11:55net result is going to be less than the emergency break glass version that they're better off and so

1:12:04far i gotta say so far i think they're if they're all like the tone of these i think they're kind of

1:12:11right these settlements the lawsuit settlement that they did which was basically a win for them

1:12:15the settlement in japan uh even even the korean law we'll see how it gets implemented and and all

1:12:22that but like there's something to be said for the attitude that they're better off moving

1:12:29incrementally in individual cases that they won't have to make as big a change as they want okay

1:12:38fair enough they can they can move like 75 of the way rather than 100 you know by the time it's what

1:12:45i'm saying is their attitude seems to be that rather than going to a hundred percent of what

1:12:52they're willing to give and say we heard everybody and we're reforming and here's the new way and

1:12:57isn't it going to be great apple's attitude very much seems to be we will scratch and claw if it

1:13:04means that we only have to give up 75 of that instead of 100 because and and if it's uh you

1:13:10know a new settlement announced on a on a friday afternoon um every week for a year to incrementally

1:13:18change app store practices like that that my concern with that strategy is that they are taking

1:13:26a real risk by doing this that they're gonna end up what's the over under on that 100 that's their

1:13:33opening offer right like are they gonna end up at 75 are they gonna end up 125 yeah they're gonna

1:13:39lose one like a big one scratching and clawing of this lead to them ending up in a worse position

1:13:45than if they had just made a bunch of app store reforms and put them out there but i just you know

1:13:52again i don't think they're capable of it i don't think they're capable of saying we're gonna change

1:13:57uh and we're gonna leave money on the table because we've heard you and this is the right

1:14:02thing to do i just don't think that they've got that they're not wired up that way they don't have

1:14:07that bone in their body and so instead they're playing this other game which might benefit them

1:14:13or it might hurt them which is why i think it's kind of dumb and that they might be better off

1:14:17playing you know trying to throw their souls on the mercy of public opinion and say okay we've

1:14:22worked with everybody and we've heard your concerns and here's our answer but like it

1:14:26seems like instead we are um in for a year of a grind of weird country-specific app store rules and

1:14:37various settlements that in just incrementally adjust app store policies instead of them just

1:14:43saying you know what we're the richest company in the world and we make billions of dollars and even

1:14:48if we lose a little bit to our developers who make our platform what it is that's okay because we make

1:14:53a lot of money and we want everybody to be happy and we want the platform to be successful and

1:15:00they could do that and probably skate away probably skate away from scrutiny but they don't

1:15:08want to it's bottom line is that they they don't seem to want to do that everything is a you gotta

1:15:15you gotta grind to get any little thing out of apple this episode is brought to you by our

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1:16:25show and relay fm let's do some hashtag ask upgrade questions so i have the first the first one

1:16:33actually uh i think this is going to introduce an interesting i don't know maybe uh unknown to you

1:16:39english american pronunciation thing so i would say this word is nougat

1:16:48it's new you would say it's nougat nougat machine asks nougat machine nougat machine asks as apple's

1:16:58size political importance and controversies continue to increase doesn't it feel like the

1:17:05pace of the news is increasingly relentless as well is it difficult to decide how much time to

1:17:11spend on a show or what to spend it on with so many options yeah yeah yes yes i yes absolutely

1:17:21it is hard i would also say and you know i i think you probably agree with me but i would like to

1:17:27hear what you have to say too um i feel like we got into this to be enthusiastic and interested

1:17:39in what like and talk about products talk about hardware talk about software talk about the

1:17:46experience of using these devices that matter to us talk about uh ways to use them better

1:17:53and accessories and like all of that kind of nitty-gritty stuff we did not sign up to do

1:18:02political and regulatory analysis it's part of i feel the responsibility to do it

1:18:10but it's so what i'm saying is when we spend an hour talking about that stuff one of two

1:18:18things is true either we felt the responsibility to do it because it was such a big deal or it's

1:18:24because there isn't something else to talk about that we would rather talk about and it's a little

1:18:30from column a and a little from column b today but that's my feeling is yes the pace is relentless

1:18:36it has picked up and i would really much rather talk about the the devices and how we use them

1:18:45and how they matter to us than about policy and regulation but as apple has become this enormous

1:18:52force and scrutiny has been focused on it that's what we end up talking about sometimes yeah i

1:18:57think an easier way to put it is as apple has changed so have we along with them you know in

1:19:03the same way that like we talk about streaming media services because apple's streaming media

1:19:08company now too and has their own content and like you know so as apple has become an increasingly

1:19:15political force or a force that draws political ire the show has changed along with it i think

1:19:23i maybe take a little bit more enjoyment from these conversations than you do just because i

1:19:27have always been and continue to be just interested in the ways that big companies do business with

1:19:33each other and outside you know like i think i like i describe it as i enjoy the machinations

1:19:39of large companies right so i just like when uh you know when big company a and big company b go

1:19:44to war and the war of words between them i find that to be interesting to like pick apart what

1:19:49they're saying and why they're saying it that's what i like about upstream really mostly is like

1:19:56how these big companies are interacting and not you know but i do have share the same like i was

1:20:05thinking as we were talking i cannot wait for next week because we might get to talk about an iphone

1:20:10instead because that's ultimately what i want to talk about more but i also won't if i believe that

1:20:18i have something to say about this stuff i want to say it you know because same with like if i

1:20:24didn't have or you didn't have anything to say about that last topic we probably wouldn't have

1:20:28spent any time on it or just a little you know sure like we maybe would have just said like hey

1:20:34this thing happened this week and we're going to move on if i had nothing to say but i have

1:20:38something to say so i want to say it but i do agree with nugam machine in the way of saying

1:20:44that like it is becoming at certain points difficult to decide what exactly we're going

1:20:49to talk about on the show because there's so much like there are a bunch of rumors like rumors are

1:20:55relentless and like how do we decide which rumors to talk about can be a whole thing not just the

1:21:00the political stuff yeah i mean we haven't talked about the um like the if i'm gonna buy an apple

1:21:07watch but we got time for that yeah but i mean i'm totally gonna buy buy an apple watch and that's

1:21:11fun that's fun conversation but also we talk about new products uh those rumors happen so far in

1:21:16advance that sometimes those are also just kind of floating out there and and are we restating

1:21:20ourselves whereas this was something that's new and i think for people who use apple products

1:21:25you know it's really ultimately this show should be about things that affect the lives of its

1:21:32listeners and so although there is a sort of a layer in between you and this which is the

1:21:37developer like how apps behave and what changes in that and how apple changes its policies which

1:21:45impacts how your apps work it does matter so it is worth talking about and it is also i think

1:21:50this whole story has been troubling because we've been dealing with sort of what is apple's mindset

1:21:57here and is this going to you know are they because in the end none of us get well okay

1:22:04there's probably some apple employees out there right most of us don't get paid by apple doing

1:22:08well that's not quite how it works right um what we do care about though is is apple's business

1:22:14model going to change is it going to be broken is the app store going to get really weird and why

1:22:19and how do we come to that point and whatever happens next at least we have talked it through

1:22:24and we won't be surprised it's a little bit like when we were talking about uh in the early days

1:22:28of upstream about like all the changes that were happening in the entertainment industry

1:22:33uh like when news breaks now about new things that netflix is doing or the tv companies are doing or

1:22:40anything like that i feel like all of us upgrade listeners and you and me uh are less surprised

1:22:47about any of that because we've been thinking about it and talking about it so there is value

1:22:50in it it's just that i guess what i what i wanted to say to nougat machine is i am always going to

1:22:57be more like what i did there i always am going to be more enthusiastic about the stuff that's

1:23:02about like the devices that we're holding and the software that runs on them and stuff like that

1:23:07than i am about regulation um but i also we we can't not talk about it thank you to nougat machine

1:23:16for no no uget machine can you imagine if it was no uget mac ein that's the that's the person's name

1:23:30mock mark ein ein mark in e anyway hunter asks hunter hunter asks apples rollout of their csm

1:23:43announcements have widely been panned as poor pr strategy even by those that support the policies

1:23:49what does this say about apple's new pr chief hey when you started talking about that later i was

1:23:55like we're gonna move on because it's coming up later on in the show uh so apple did hire a new

1:24:00pr chief after having no pr chief for a very long time i think it was over a year at least

1:24:07steve dowling left and left the apple left the role vacant and then they hired stella low to

1:24:14replace uh steve delving this is a number of months ago i think it's fair to say the last few

1:24:22months seem to have shown some differences in pr strategies from apple i don't know if they're like

1:24:28bad or good but different like the c sam thing didn't go well uh and then there was like you

1:24:34know a lot of people were talking about especially with the um us developers thing interesting like

1:24:40timelines given on the announcement which was actually a pretty shrewd move because it initially

1:24:47came out as like look how great this is because that's what apple told the press uh that it was

1:24:53super great um but when you started digging into it it kind of wasn't that great because no no

1:24:59concessions were actually made even though it was made to look like concessions were made so i mean

1:25:07i don't know i think the c sam thing is was very clearly uh pr blunder i don't know if stella low

1:25:16was involved in that at all i don't know you know maybe it started before i had no idea this is the

1:25:21problem with the black box of apple right is that and i said this earlier but just to restate it

1:25:26i don't know if this is stella lowe's problem if it's the people who work for stella low who

1:25:36who have been there a while and they made bad decisions or if this comes from

1:25:42you know tim or somebody else who basically is saying you will communicate this i don't know so

1:25:49it's very hard to place blame but i will say the communications have been poor the c sam thing was

1:25:55botched it was not you know things should not have been announced the way they were they shouldn't

1:26:00have conflated those features that are totally different from one another they like they rolled

1:26:04them all together like ah it's we're going to tell a story about all this stuff it just led to

1:26:07more confusion they then had to do lots of damage control and then they pulled it pulled it out

1:26:12uh not great some of this other stuff has been you know it's like you said it's it's been tough

1:26:19i'll also say that stella lowe's bio mentions that she's also in charge of employee communication

1:26:24so i have to say what does that mean and does that mean things like tim cook's memo where he said

1:26:31great news everybody wants to come back and work in the office three days a week was that part of

1:26:36her job because that also just engendered a lot of anger among at least some apple employees

1:26:42so is that and we don't know we don't know it's possible that that that was her mistake too or

1:26:48it's possible that her hands are tied like i this is the difficulty with any of this is you can't

1:26:53point to somebody and say i know they're doing a bad job because they may be stuck in a very bad

1:26:58or even unwinnable situation i will mention stella lowe's background is uh cisco dell and emc all of

1:27:08which are essentially enterprise tech companies and i again i don't know anything about her

1:27:17background beyond that and i don't know anything about her skill set and they obviously thought

1:27:21that she was a great hire i will say no amount of work at cisco dell and emc will prepare you for

1:27:29what the issues are at apple like i know they're both they're all tech companies apple is not like

1:27:35those companies at all it was very surprising to me that they did not promote from within

1:27:42like i feel like surely head of pr at apple you should really know how apple works well what

1:27:51happened is they had two very senior people in pr when katie cotton retired and they picked one

1:27:57and so the other left and so then they're left with just steve dowling and his lieutenants and i

1:28:03they must have thought that steve dowling's lieutenants were not up for the task um

1:28:08but again we don't know we're just speculating on the outside so i don't know if it's stella

1:28:13lowe's fault or not but i will say um their rollout was poor and either either stella lowe

1:28:22should be held to account for the bad rollout or stella lowe should be using it as an example of

1:28:26why they need to let her handle it right like one of those has to be true right like either you guys

1:28:32told me to do it this way and it was a disaster and we need to not do this anymore or it was why

1:28:36did you allow this to happen this way but something did not work right there so i don't know it is it's

1:28:43a pr blunder regardless and i know you know i just i think you can't even argue that it was a pr

1:28:49blunder because the way it was rolled out and the way they had to do all of these uh damage control

1:28:54things afterwards like you don't do damage control and then throw out a lot of executive interviews

1:29:00and then withdraw the feature if it wasn't a botched rollout and i do think that if they

1:29:07had understood how it was going to be interpreted they could have done it differently that said what

1:29:13i mentioned earlier still goes which is part of the fault here is that they seem to have not

1:29:18engaged in some of the experts in this field in advance you know and you know when you have

1:29:25the people who wrote maybe the only published paper on neural hashing come out two days after

1:29:30the announcement and say they completely missed all of the flaws we found with this and so why

1:29:37did they do this you should probably talk to them right like this is not a secret product this is

1:29:42not an iphone then the fault lies with like i guess the security team or whatever it is like

1:29:47not like the security security team and whoever enables that and that's a cultural thing and that

1:29:53means it goes up to tim really like they they need to deal with this stuff so i can't call for

1:29:58the firing of somebody because i don't really know who's at fault but somebody blew it here and maybe

1:30:02many somebodies and maybe it's a fault of the corporate culture or as somebody on twitter said

1:30:06to said i don't even know it was to me said the other week um boy there's an apple university

1:30:12class and all of this isn't there like yeah there should be this should be a what went wrong and why

1:30:16do we do it this way and how do we fix it because they they messed this up badly and zach asks this

1:30:22is follow up from our call-in show what pen should i look into if i want something nicer but not a

1:30:27fountain pen so this was let me take this one to you getting in there all right yeah go on what

1:30:33you got i i don't i i have nothing okay so i'm gonna give two two things here one is pen addict

1:30:41dot com slash top dash five dash pens i'll put a link in the show notes my co-host at the pen addict

1:30:48brad dowdy put together a top five pens list for a vast array of categories so depending on what

1:30:56you're looking for there's a pen in there but if i was going to make like here is a blanket

1:31:01recommendation for you it would be the mark one from studio neat that would be my if you wanna if

1:31:08you want to to up your pen game you will get two things here you will get what is undoubtedly my

1:31:15favorite refill my favorite rollable refill ever made which is called the schmidt p8 126

1:31:21that's the refill that they use i think i may have helped introduce this refill to studio neat and

1:31:27they love it so much they wanted to build an entire pen around it because they thought it was

1:31:31super great because it is super great and but the pen body that they that they pair it with is

1:31:36absolutely fantastic and includes one of the most satisfying clicking mechanisms which are called

1:31:41knocks in the pen vernacular one of the most satisfying clicking mechanisms that i've ever used

1:31:47i can give you a audio example very nice fantastic pen here's the uh yeah studio neat

1:31:57very good very good i have two of those they do black and white it's very nice and if you

1:32:07um are in your local like stationary store i would say uh i bought a bunch of the zebra sarasa

1:32:18clip which is you can often just find in a little bag or even in a little just in a little barrel

1:32:25one at a time at your stationary store uh it's a you know gel pen it's really good as a plastic

1:32:32you know it's not a fancy pen it's just a good pen that's what i used to use before i got these fancy

1:32:38ones zebra sarasa makes it way onto one of brad's top five lists yes it is a very good pen that you

1:32:43chosen for yourself there yeah well i mean i talk to pen people about it of course that's actually

1:32:48a really good pen so you have that that's because because i was buying you know clicky plastic pens

1:32:52and i thought well if i'm gonna buy a clicky plastic pen i want a good one in case you don't

1:32:59notice about me i host a weekly podcast about pens and stationary materials it's called the pen addict

1:33:05the pen addict celebrates its 10th year next year can you believe that good pretty good we're

1:33:13actually just out of pure chance our 500th episode is going to align with our 10-year anniversary to

1:33:21today well that's you know it's in the ballpark right that's 50 shows a year well we took a break

1:33:27for a while this is one of the things there was there was a multiple month break uh in the pen

1:33:32addicts history but uh yeah long time that we've been doing that show for a long long time and i

1:33:38also do host a podcast with the guys over at studio neat as well called thoroughly considered

1:33:42um but i absolutely adore that pen and think that you should buy it for yourself if you'd like to

1:33:49send in a topic question for us to focus on to send out a tweet with the hashtag ask upgrade or

1:33:56use question mark ask upgrade in the relay fm members discord which you can get access to if

1:34:00you sign up for upgrade plus thank you so much if you have go to get upgrade plus dot com uh we are

1:34:06now as i'm recording at 185 474.88 so we are uh just about ten thousand dollars away from crossing

1:34:19our one million dollar goal of raised over three years for the wonderful saint jude children's

1:34:25research hospital go to saint jude.org slash relay and you can donate today don't forget if there is

1:34:31an apple event announced uh we will be uh having an extra draft episode of upgrade which might

1:34:40actually mean right now in this very serious episode we are ending the summer of fun this

1:34:49could be the end of the summer of fun right now it depends this could be the end of the summer of fun

1:34:58it's difficult now we don't know when to end it because we don't get enough notice but this could

1:35:03be the last time today that you hear the summer of fun theme song well it'll it'll i think in its

1:35:08entirety right we do a little transition i knew i knew what you were we do a little transition but

1:35:14yeah it's been a it's been a fun summer we had some fun we've had a lot of fun i think we've had

1:35:18a lot of fun this summer great guests the guests with with you and the guests with me great theme

1:35:23episodes yep i think it's been a great summer of fun but you know the summer comes to an end when

1:35:30the iphones unfortunately arrive although the heat started increasing here in london this week which

1:35:34is very peculiar the temperature starts going up again that that's the irony of of the bay area

1:35:39weather is that our best weather is in september and october so yeah but this might be the end of

1:35:45the summer of fun all right well you know it'll be back it'll be back always is and we got the

1:35:51holiday maybe sooner than usual who knows you never know you never know with us you never know

1:35:56with us thank you so much to pingdom gabby and member for for the support of this episode you

1:36:02can find jason online at sixcolors.com and he is @jasonelle i am @imike we'll be back

1:36:11definitely next week maybe before until then say goodbye jason snow goodbye mike really

1:36:17so you