0:00:00[Music]
0:00:08From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 340.
0:00:12Today's show is brought to you by Squarespace, LinkedIn Jobs, and Literati Kids.
0:00:17My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by Jason Snow.
0:00:19Hello, Jason Snow.
0:00:21Hello, Michael Hurley.
0:00:24I have a #snowtalk question for you from Ryan.
0:00:27Is it from me?
0:00:27It's from Jason to Ryan.
0:00:30No, it's not.
0:00:30When can I turn the tables and we can do Myke talk?
0:00:33Or sorry, Hurley talk.
0:00:34#hurleytalk.
0:00:35Whenever you want.
0:00:36You know?
0:00:37We can do it whenever you want.
0:00:38All right.
0:00:38I'll think about it.
0:00:39This question comes from Ryan and Ryan says,
0:00:41what apps do you run in your menu bar?
0:00:44What does that mean?
0:00:45Well, when you look up in your menu bar.
0:00:47Yes.
0:00:48Which I don't know if you know this, but the menu bar is at the top of the Macintosh screen.
0:00:52Oh, like the Macintosh.
0:00:54Yes.
0:00:54The Macintosh operating system.
0:00:56It has the thing on the top right hand side and this, and this way like little apps, little
0:01:01app icons show in the menu bar.
0:01:03What's up there?
0:01:04Are they apps?
0:01:05Are they all apps up there though?
0:01:06That's what confuses me about this is what, what's what apps are in my.
0:01:10See, I think some of them are right because I have some right that run with the apps closed.
0:01:15Is the clock an app?
0:01:16If I click on it, I get the, uh, the notification center.
0:01:19I think people don't care that you had the clock there, right?
0:01:22Cause everyone knows you got the clock there.
0:01:23I think what people are looking for is like, what are the third party applications that
0:01:28JSNL deems important enough to give that permanent real estate?
0:01:31Okay, well I've got the control center again, not allowed to not have it.
0:01:36Um, next to that I have, uh, the peak calc widget.
0:01:41Very good widget.
0:01:42It's new from peak calc.
0:01:45It's a widget.
0:01:46It lives in your menu bar, so you don't have to launch that whole giant, enormous, complicated
0:01:52peak calc app and instead can just use it in the menu bar.
0:01:58It's otherwise pretty much exactly the same.
0:02:00Um, I have an app that I wrote about recently on six colors called home control.
0:02:08It's up there.
0:02:09That is an app that lets me, uh, change like home kit things with keyboard shortcuts on
0:02:15my Mac.
0:02:15Right.
0:02:16So like I can turn on the floor lamp in my office with a like control escape or something
0:02:21like that and it just turns on.
0:02:24It's pretty great.
0:02:25Uh, I have fantastic Cal, which is telling me that I have a zoom meeting right now.
0:02:30Oh, that's this one.
0:02:32Uh, I have a bunch of widgets from Swift bar, which is the app that I've written about that
0:02:37lets you put little scripts in your menu bar.
0:02:40So those individual items aren't apps.
0:02:42There are little scripts I wrote, plugin scripts I wrote for Swift bar.
0:02:47So I've got like the air quality outside, you know, at my, in my neighborhood and I've got the current temperature
0:02:54and I've got how many people are listening on the live stream right now.
0:02:57I've got all those in there.
0:02:58And then I use bartender.
0:03:01So that's all that's visible by default and then hidden away to the left.
0:03:06If I move my mouse over there is some other stuff.
0:03:09Dropbox time machine, um, downlink, which is the app that puts my puts the satellite picture on my desktop.
0:03:19Um, keyboard maestro is over there and uh, that's about it.
0:03:25Very nice.
0:03:26It's a good collection.
0:03:27So some of those are apps actually.
0:03:30Yeah.
0:03:31Well, everything before the, uh, bartender fold as they call it.
0:03:34Sure.
0:03:35The only thing I have one password there.
0:03:37Um, I also have Alfred in there and I don't know why that is in there.
0:03:42Like why I have it on the top part.
0:03:43So I'm now moving it to the, uh, the hidden part in bartender.
0:03:48Yeah, there you go.
0:03:49And there's a lot of junk in the hidden area.
0:03:51Yeah.
0:03:52There's a lot of stuff that I just generally don't need to see.
0:03:55Don't want to see.
0:03:56Not interested.
0:03:58Yeah.
0:03:59Bartender is a indispensable, uh, application because there's just stuff that I really wished
0:04:06wasn't in a menu bar and I can't get rid of it, but a bartender will let you do it.
0:04:11If you would like to be like Ryan and help us open a future episode of the show, just
0:04:14send in a tweet with the hashtag Snell Talk.
0:04:16It may be considered, or you can use question marks and they'll talk in the relay FM members
0:04:21discord, uh, follow up.
0:04:23People should go and check out episode 143 of liftoff, which features an interview with
0:04:30Ron Moore, the creator for mankind with Jason Snell and Stephen Hackett.
0:04:34I have listened to all of it up until the spoiler part, cause I actually haven't been
0:04:37able to watch the first episode of four or mankind yet.
0:04:40So I'm waiting for that, but it was very good.
0:04:43A very good interview.
0:04:44Uh, very interesting.
0:04:45I could tell how excited you were in it, which was fun for me.
0:04:48Mm hmm.
0:04:49Yeah.
0:04:50Try to get my excitement there without, without asking him detailed questions about, you know,
0:04:54Klingons or Cylons or you're going to start bringing up or any other thing that he's done
0:05:00on television.
0:05:01Yeah.
0:05:02I'm going to put some of the dependencies in each episode, you know?
0:05:04Yeah.
0:05:05In episode 17 of series three of Star Trek Discovery.
0:05:08No, that's not...
0:05:09That's where it ends for me.
0:05:10That's where it ends for me.
0:05:11That was as close as I could have gotten.
0:05:14Yeah.
0:05:15No?
0:05:16What did I do wrong there?
0:05:17In, uh, in season five of The Next Generation, you indicate that Worf is, uh, going to inherit
0:05:23his family's Klingon titles, but then in season six, you suggest that he has no claim to his
0:05:31family lands back on Kronos, the Klingon home world.
0:05:35How do you explain this inconsistency, Ronald D. Moore?
0:05:39Is this an actual inconsistency that you know?
0:05:41No, that's, I mean, there's probably something like that.
0:05:44I mean, that's, that's the, those are your kind of a comic book guy, Star Trek nerd questions
0:05:48that you would get asked him.
0:05:50Right.
0:05:51And, and be like, dude, I wrote that script in 1991 and that was a long time ago.
0:05:58It's I was listening to, um, the flophouse this weekend and they were talking, it was,
0:06:03it was one from a few weeks back about, uh, the etiquette of meeting somebody who was,
0:06:07or working with somebody who was in a bad movie.
0:06:09And they were talking to the guy who is the showrunner of Brockmire, which is a very good,
0:06:13uh, TV comedy that I liked a lot.
0:06:16And he was talking about how in Brockmire, he was working with Amanda Pete, who is in,
0:06:21oh, uh, studio 60, uh, on the sunset strip and he asked her a question about it, uh,
0:06:28sort of embedded in it being that it's bad.
0:06:31And she was, uh, not aware that it was considered bad, uh, not, not really interested in hearing
0:06:37that it was bad because she had such a good professional experience doing it.
0:06:42And the point of it was like, what's the etiquette of, of talking to people about bad movies.
0:06:46And, and, and I enjoyed the fact that the larger point of it is if you're an actor or
0:06:50even a writer, it was a job and they paid you and you're going to evaluate it as like,
0:06:55oh, I had that job for a year.
0:06:56It was a good job.
0:06:57In her case, it was, I got pregnant while doing the job and they, they really treated
0:07:02me well.
0:07:03And they were very professional about it.
0:07:05And like all these things that are about your job, not about the end product, uh, that everybody
0:07:12else knows about.
0:07:13And I was thinking about that in the context of Ron Moore.
0:07:15It's the, the, every science fiction convention is like, here's somebody who worked on an
0:07:21episode of star Trek 50 years ago for literally for seven days.
0:07:27Um, and 50 years ago, they're asked questions about what it was like.
0:07:33It's like, do you remember a week you spent on a, on a temp job in 1967?
0:07:42Like probably not, probably not.
0:07:46I can't imagine what it is like to be in those environments and have to answer those types
0:07:52of questions.
0:07:53Like at conventions and stuff.
0:07:55Anyway, Ron Moore, Ron Moore grew up as a huge fan of the original star Trek and then
0:07:59ended up writing for star Trek, what next generation in deep space nine.
0:08:02So he gets it.
0:08:04He understands fandom.
0:08:05Um, but I read an interview.
0:08:07I didn't ask him about star Trek, but I read an interview when he was making the rounds
0:08:10last week where somebody asked him about if he'd seen any of the modern star Treks.
0:08:14And he was like, no, basically I'm real busy, but also I'm, you know, putting, you know,
0:08:21he's trying to think about the stuff that he's doing.
0:08:25And like he says, I'm, I'm doing science fiction shows like for all mankind.
0:08:29I do not have the brain power to when I'm, when I'm doing something for pleasure, it's
0:08:33going to not be science fiction.
0:08:35Right.
0:08:36Cause he's working in the, that's like the business right now.
0:08:39So I thought that was funny also allows him to not insult.
0:08:42Like if he says, yeah, I didn't like it.
0:08:44Like, I mean, he's a working producer better than better to not comment best.
0:08:47Not the other stuff.
0:08:49Uh, but it was a lot of the conversation that, uh, you and Steven had with Ron, uh, before
0:08:55you start talking about season two is kind of how he goes about making the parallel world
0:09:03of for all mankind match up with the accurate world or angry with the accurate world.
0:09:09And it was fascinating to hear his thought process, but also his excitement about space
0:09:15stuff.
0:09:16Um, I just thought it was really cool.
0:09:17It was a very fun interview and he just sounded like a regular dude, right?
0:09:20Like he just sounded like a nice guy like this.
0:09:22So I can imagine it was a nice experience getting to talk to him too.
0:09:25Yeah, it was.
0:09:26He's not much older than I am.
0:09:27Um, he's a little bit older, but not much older than I am.
0:09:29And so he had a lot of the same experiences I did where you kind of missed the Apollo
0:09:32moon landing era, but you had the skylab and space shuttle era and you can, given, given
0:09:39that you can see why he sort of said.
0:09:41It would be fun to tell the story of what happened if we all, you know, we kind of kept
0:09:46going and kept pushing it instead of what really happened, which is that it all just
0:09:50kind of slowed down and, and ground to a halt, which is, you know, unfortunately the legacy
0:09:55of that era.
0:09:57I found it kind of interesting that, and then when he was talking about that, you could
0:10:00hear like a, like a twinge of sadness to it.
0:10:05Yeah.
0:10:06Like that.
0:10:07And I can see now I can see like, Oh, one of the reasons he made the show is because
0:10:09he wanted the space like exploration to continue.
0:10:13So he just made a world in which it did exactly.
0:10:15It's kind of fun.
0:10:17So that's episode 143 of liftoff here on relay FM.
0:10:20There'll be a link in the show notes, but you should go check it out.
0:10:23And also if people are really liking for all mankind season two, Dan Morin and I are doing
0:10:27a weekly podcast over on the incomparable episode by episode.
0:10:33And those are dropping on the, on the Fridays when the episodes come out.
0:10:37So what's the name of the 10 it's, it's not, it doesn't really have a name.
0:10:41It's just in the TV podcast feed.
0:10:43So it's, it's the for all mankind.
0:10:45So if you know, you can go there and you'll see, if you go to the incomparable.com, you'll
0:10:49see the for all mankind as one of the tiles of one of the episodes and you can just click
0:10:53on it and there's, you can subscribe to directly to the forum and kind of eat if you want to.
0:10:57Okay.
0:10:58Yeah.
0:10:58I'll, uh, I'll put something in the show notes.
0:11:01Oh yeah.
0:11:02I know I can, I can, uh, I can do that.
0:11:04Yeah.
0:11:05It's it's the incomparable.com/teevee/mankind.
0:11:09Mankind.
0:11:10All right.
0:11:11That will be in the show notes.
0:11:12Not the wrestler, Myke, not the wrestler.
0:11:15McFaulie.
0:11:15See?
0:11:16Wrestling knowledge.
0:11:16Last week.
0:11:17Thank you.
0:11:18Last week.
0:11:18Sort of.
0:11:19You made a reference to, I don't even remember how this happened.
0:11:24We were talking about Nintendo and how people say, well, maybe Apple's gaming strategy can
0:11:28be like Nintendo.
0:11:29And you're like, mm, Apple is not Nintendo.
0:11:31And I said, no, it's not.
0:11:32Cause they have no characters.
0:11:33Including for many reasons, including that they don't have a, you know, decades of beloved
0:11:38gaming intellectual property.
0:11:40And I tried to imagine what that would even be.
0:11:42And the best I could come up with was the adventures of dog cow and spinning rainbow
0:11:46cursor in finder land.
0:11:49And then probably even 20 minutes at the episode publishing, Justin Hamilton created a browser
0:11:53based game called the adventures of dog cow and spinning rainbow cursor and finder land.
0:11:58Unbelievable.
0:11:59It's a silly little Mario type game.
0:12:03Yeah.
0:12:04The ground is the, is the Aqua scroll bar from early OS 10.
0:12:08And then the platforms are little Aqua scroll bars too.
0:12:11And you're a, you're a dog cow, but there's your friend, the little spinning rainbow cursor
0:12:14is right above you and it fires off like a bolts to attack the windows logos that are
0:12:20coming at you.
0:12:22And you want to collect a lot of G3 IMAX.
0:12:24So obviously that clearly how else would you make it?
0:12:29It's incredible.
0:12:30I've been linking the shout outs and go check it out.
0:12:32Justin would have been a hit flash game in, in 2005.
0:12:36Let's talk about some upstream stuff.
0:12:37Apple got a bunch of things going on.
0:12:39So Apple and skydance, we're going to be partnering on a multi year film and TV deal.
0:12:46So this deal brings with it the movies, luck and spellbound, which were both set for the
0:12:53theater, but that was obviously changed.
0:12:56And the beginning of my understanding from a report and deadline is that this report,
0:13:01sorry, this, this deal started the process of what would eventually become this overall
0:13:08deal with skydance to work with Apple on multiple projects.
0:13:14Going forward, these will be exclusive to Apple.
0:13:17Obviously not everything skydance does, but they will be things that are exclusive to
0:13:21them.
0:13:22You know, they're not like, Hey, do you want this movie we made?
0:13:23Uh, there's a TV series that they're working on called the search for wandler, which is
0:13:28based on a book.
0:13:29Um, John Lasseter is going to serve as producer on all films and shows under this deal.
0:13:35Now we had spoken about this previously because it was rumored that they might be working
0:13:40together when these two films were being shopped to Apple and that there might be something
0:13:45going on.
0:13:46And we'd brought up at the time that this could be of concern to people because John
0:13:51Lasseter has a check of parts of sexual misconduct while at Disney and Pixar.
0:13:55And we were wondering how would this be dealt with?
0:13:58And the way it's been dealt with is that he's going to be a producer and executive producer
0:14:04on the product on all the projects.
0:14:06Yep.
0:14:07So if you want to check out a longer conversation about this, uh, we spoke about it a little
0:14:11bit episode three, three one.
0:14:14There are going to be lots of people with lots of very valid and upset opinions about
0:14:18this.
0:14:19I'm sure.
0:14:20Uh, it's an intriguing thing that they're going into, but this is the way it's going
0:14:23to be like John Lasseter is high up at skydance and Apple's made the deal with them and he's
0:14:27going to have his hands in everything.
0:14:30We talked to this whole issue through in three 31 so people should check that out if they
0:14:35would like, if they did not hear us talk about it.
0:14:38The Apple TV app is now available on Chromecast.
0:14:41This landed just in time for For All Mankind.
0:14:45This was previously announced in December.
0:14:46We did touch on it, but now it is available as of last week.
0:14:51It works via Google TV, which I didn't know about until today when I started looking into
0:14:56this for the show.
0:14:58Google TV is basically the Apple TV app, but on Chromecast.
0:15:04So Google have created an app which collects together content from companies and shows
0:15:10you them like all in one view, right?
0:15:12And all of your other Chromecast apps and services can plug into it and Google TV acts
0:15:17as a kind of front for it.
0:15:19So that, you know, this is a little thing that they have.
0:15:23Google has had many, many, many, many, uh, television based things, right?
0:15:29So they did like, and this is, and that the way that they're doing it now, it's just,
0:15:34it's just to bundle it into Chromecast, which is probably good because people like Chromecast
0:15:39and people haven't liked any of Google's other things.
0:15:42Right.
0:15:43So you need Chromecast with Google TV and then inside there will be an Apple TV.
0:15:47It's like a little nesting dolls, but if you, you can get the Chromecast and Chromecast,
0:15:50my understanding is much more, uh, widely available than a lot of other alternatives
0:15:55to Apple TV hardware.
0:15:57So, um, it, it should be more available in some countries where they don't have alternatives.
0:16:04Um, and yeah, and in fact, even I think Apple TV channels is available.
0:16:08So like the nesting dolls continue, right?
0:16:10You've got Chromecast with Google TV, with Apple TV, with Apple TV channels.
0:16:15If you really want to keep going down the stack that is available to you.
0:16:18Apparently.
0:16:19Um, it's interesting, it's like $50 to Chromecast with Google TV and it does 4k does HDR Dolby
0:16:28vision.
0:16:29You know, this is like a $50 way to get into the best way that you can watch this content
0:16:34produces.
0:16:35Like, you know, it's just like, this is what the Apple TV does 4k HDR Dolby vision.
0:16:39So, you know, just to refer back to what we were talking about a week or two ago, uh, it
0:16:45makes again, the case for the Apple TV difficult.
0:16:48You get a remote with buttons on it.
0:16:49Uh, you know, it's like the whole thing.
0:16:52Imagine.
0:16:53Uh, Apple also had a big day.
0:16:54They unveiled their 2021 content slate as part of the television critics association
0:16:59winter press tour.
0:17:00Um, I'll put a link in the show notes to, uh, Apple's kind of press release, but there
0:17:04was a lot that they announced.
0:17:06Um, lots of new shows and movies.
0:17:08Some we knew about some we didn't, uh, some featuring more information than we use some
0:17:13featuring more costs than we knew.
0:17:15There's too much to go through.
0:17:16Honestly, uh, there's a lot of a list names.
0:17:18Um, as part of this whole slate of programming, uh, I think one of the things that was most
0:17:23interesting to me and to others is some teasers at the foundation series.
0:17:27Um, which is I think probably going to be their next like top tier show.
0:17:32Um, you know, if you look at like see a morning show and for all mankind, they're, they're
0:17:39definitely starting the hype for foundation early, but there was some fun little details
0:17:44that come out.
0:17:45So mythic quest is back on May 7th, which I'm excited about and was surprised that it's
0:17:50that it was kind of like we didn't know anything.
0:17:53And then it's like two months away.
0:17:54Uh, Ted lasso season two is going to be in the summer.
0:17:58Also very pleased about that.
0:17:59And the morning show is returning in the summer.
0:18:01Now that is way later than they expected.
0:18:05Right?
0:18:06Like you can, I mean, we've spoken about this before, but that it was impacted by COVID
0:18:09stuff and they went and rewrote a lot of stuff and now it's coming in the summer.
0:18:13Like this, I think morning show was supposed to be out by now.
0:18:17You would expect, right?
0:18:18Um, so moving it all the way to the summer, I think is an effect of them going back and
0:18:22redoing some of the show, but I'm pleased for that.
0:18:25It would be more relevant again.
0:18:26So I'm excited.
0:18:27I'm excited about it.
0:18:28I really enjoyed the morning show.
0:18:30So I'm looking forward to more.
0:18:31Yeah.
0:18:32We're in an interesting period where content is starting to roll out.
0:18:36That is, was made during the pandemic.
0:18:42And like during either like light parts of the pandemic or, you know, like last summer
0:18:48and fall and like, it's interesting now.
0:18:50Cause you're like, well, is this a pre pandemic thing or is this a, is this a during pandemic
0:18:54thing?
0:18:55Like, uh, it's fascinating to see because it's getting hard to tell.
0:18:58Right.
0:18:59And some things I was struck by, um, in, Oh, what show was I watching that, uh, Oh, in
0:19:06WandaVision there is a reference to quarantine in the latest episode.
0:19:12And I had that moment of like, they shot, I think they shot most of this before the
0:19:17pandemic, but they obviously didn't shoot all of it and made some changes.
0:19:22And there's going to be, we're going to be dealing with a lot of that.
0:19:24Um, I think this year where we're going to see stuff and, and wonder, you know, they
0:19:29won't probably tell us, but like wonder what, what was the story behind this?
0:19:32Did they stop halfway?
0:19:33Did they shoot this all before?
0:19:34Did they shoot this all during like, it's interesting to watch that and try to imagine
0:19:41it will be able to tell by people's haircuts.
0:19:43Well, actually that's the funny thing is that they have continuity people who that's all
0:19:46they do, right.
0:19:47Is match what you look like in another scene because they do shoot everything, get shoots
0:19:52out of order.
0:19:53Anyway, it just doesn't usually shoot like movies shoot out of order over the course
0:19:57of sometimes months and they, they get everything to, to sync up.
0:20:01But you know, if you do it over a year, you can make the haircuts probably match better
0:20:08than you can make.
0:20:09So if somebody gained or lost, you know, 15 pounds or something like that, that would
0:20:14be more visible, but I don't know, looking forward to it.
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0:21:57So we're going to talk about keyboards and track pads now.
0:22:01So we have something to talk about with Bridge because you wrote a little article about Bridge
0:22:07and some stuff that they've got going on with a beta version of iOS.
0:22:11But there's also a Jason Snell story time that we want to get to before that.
0:22:15My wife is a children's librarian.
0:22:17Normally she does the story time in this house, but I also sometimes have story time.
0:22:22For my pals, my upgrading pals.
0:22:25I just want to, I went to the Apple store again.
0:22:27It's one of those stories, Myke, where I leave the house.
0:22:30It's very exciting when I leave the house happens almost never went to my local Apple
0:22:35store because I decided to embrace the butterfly keyboard Apple service program.
0:22:46Okay.
0:22:47I don't know.
0:22:48I don't know if you've done this, but Apple has this program for people who have the butterfly
0:22:54keyboard on their laptop.
0:22:56If it's four years or less from when your laptop was originally purchased, Apple will
0:23:06take it in, check it out.
0:23:09If it's got like keyboard problems, repeated dropped letters, stuff like that, which I
0:23:14think is basically everyone, but Apple insists is just a small percentage.
0:23:20So Lauren's MacBook air 2018 model has a butterfly keyboard, obviously.
0:23:26And she said to me, I don't know, a year ago, six months ago, I was like, are you having
0:23:34keyboard issues?
0:23:35She says, yeah.
0:23:36And you know, it's okay.
0:23:37The, the, the, you know, letters double a lot.
0:23:40And I'm like, that's not, you are, it's not okay.
0:23:43Those are issues.
0:23:44I downloaded unshaky, which is this little utility that like tries to sense when a letter
0:23:50is pushed multiple times in a very short time window and basically ignores the additional
0:23:57presses, which is very clever as a workaround to try to solve some of these issues.
0:24:02And when last time I checked, it said like unshaky has solved thousands of these mistaken
0:24:07presses, right?
0:24:08But the bottom line is it's a butterfly keyboard and it's got a lot of these issues that are
0:24:12famous for the butterfly keyboards.
0:24:14Apple has a program and I thought, well, before it expires, I should, she uses this laptop.
0:24:20I should probably actually take advantage of the fact that Apple has a keyboard service
0:24:25program.
0:24:26Now she, in the pandemic, she's mostly been using it at her desk and I got her a stand
0:24:30and pulled out one of my many keyboards that I have.
0:24:34I have lots of keyboards in my, in my office and a track pad, and she's mostly using it
0:24:39that way now, but she still will use it in other places.
0:24:42And her using a good keyboard only magnifies how bad the base keyboard is.
0:24:47So I decided to do the thing.
0:24:50I went online, it says, go to the genius appointment list for your local store, if you've got a
0:24:56nearby store, and I signed that up.
0:24:59And they're like, all right, come in tomorrow afternoon.
0:25:02And I go to the mall and put on my mask and it's an outdoor mall because it's California.
0:25:11And there are two lines.
0:25:12There's the genius line and there's the picking up products line.
0:25:15I wait in the genius line for five or 10 minutes and I get called into the store.
0:25:20The store has been completely remade where there's basically just, you can't get into
0:25:25the store.
0:25:26You can get into this sort of, it's almost like a little lobby area they've created.
0:25:29That's got a bunch of like teller windows or a friend of mine described it as being
0:25:33like going to a racetrack.
0:25:34It's the place where you place the bed at the racetrack it's or in a cartoon or a movie
0:25:39about racetracks.
0:25:40So like there's a little window with a person behind it that you're directed to.
0:25:45And I say keyboard service program, it's already on my thing.
0:25:49And she asked me a lot of sort of unnecessary questions about my laptop while she's wiping
0:25:52it down with little moist towelettes.
0:25:57But you know, it went pretty quickly because I know the answers.
0:25:59- They wiped it down in front of you?
0:26:00- Yeah, she wiped it down before she even like opened it up.
0:26:03And I don't even know why she opened it up.
0:26:04It's like, this is the keyboard service program.
0:26:06It's got double characters all over the place.
0:26:08And please just do the thing with the keyboard service program.
0:26:11And have you backed it up?
0:26:13Yes, all of that.
0:26:14But it went pretty quickly after all of that.
0:26:18And she did after the wipe down and I went back home
0:26:22and she's like, well, we'll, you know, our tech will analyze it
0:26:24and then we'll call you.
0:26:25And I'm like, why would that happen?
0:26:27Like, we all know what's going on here.
0:26:29Well, I got a call probably five minutes after I got back home
0:26:33from somebody saying keyboard service program.
0:26:37So we're gonna mail it out to the place where,
0:26:40and it'll be like 10 days.
0:26:42And I said, okay, great.
0:26:46Do that.
0:26:47- Did I offer you anything?
0:26:49Like, so 'cause here's my thinking on this, right?
0:26:52For a lot of people, this is their computer, right?
0:26:56So if you do this, you have no computer for two weeks.
0:27:00- Yes, indeed.
0:27:03Indeed, yeah.
0:27:04And they, you know, I don't think they offer you a loaner.
0:27:07I don't think they do.
0:27:08I certainly didn't get offered one.
0:27:11I don't think they can.
0:27:12And yes, that's a problem.
0:27:13And that I think suppresses the use of this sort of process.
0:27:17- 'Cause I know with some stuff like AppleCare,
0:27:20they'll basically, especially they've been doing it
0:27:22more recently, they will, you know,
0:27:24you give them your cloud information
0:27:26and they'll take like a hold
0:27:28and they'll send you a device, right?
0:27:31And then you just send them back the other one
0:27:34and they will refund you or whatever.
0:27:37And once again, not ideal
0:27:39because you've got to have the money just sitting around.
0:27:43You're at least with, you know,
0:27:44you haven't got no phone for two weeks or whatever.
0:27:47- And this is a 2018 model,
0:27:49so they don't make it anymore or anything like that.
0:27:51I don't know.
0:27:52I agree with you.
0:27:53I think that given that this is essentially a product recall,
0:27:56it would be awfully nice
0:27:57if they offered something like that, but they don't.
0:27:58- Although it'd be kind of torture for anyone doing it
0:28:00'cause it'd be like, here's a brand new MacBook Pro
0:28:03and it's so amazing.
0:28:04And then in two weeks time, you have to give it back.
0:28:07- Mail it back.
0:28:08David in the Discord points out quite rightly
0:28:11that the reason that they do the little quick kind of check
0:28:14before they tell you, yep, keyboard program,
0:28:16we're gonna send it out,
0:28:17is they wanna make sure it works and isn't busted.
0:28:20And you know, that it basically is a functioning laptop
0:28:24for all sorts of other reasons
0:28:25before they put you in the keyboard program.
0:28:27But in my case, it's a perfectly fine laptop
0:28:29that has a butterfly keyboard.
0:28:31That's its core flaw.
0:28:34By the way, the next day I got a phone call,
0:28:36which was really funny, a voice call,
0:28:38and I decided to answer it
0:28:39because I've gotten a couple of these calls
0:28:42from unknown numbers in California
0:28:44that have actually been related to Apple Store
0:28:47and Apple stuff.
0:28:48So I'm like, all right, let's just see.
0:28:50I'll take a chance.
0:28:51It's probably a spammer, but let's give it a shot.
0:28:53And it was a person, a live person who said,
0:28:56this is so-and-so with Apple.
0:28:59And just letting you know about your laptop
0:29:02that's been sent in for the keyboard service program
0:29:05that due to extreme weather in the United States,
0:29:08it's gonna face delays.
0:29:09It'll probably take us a little bit longer to look at it
0:29:11than we might've thought.
0:29:12And I'm like, okay.
0:29:13So, you know, we'll take it.
0:29:15And I'm like, fine.
0:29:17This is one of those things where I don't,
0:29:19it's nice that it's a real human being
0:29:21and not like a, just a recording,
0:29:24but I have nothing to say to them.
0:29:26It's like, all right.
0:29:27I'm like, thank you for telling me.
0:29:28Fine, really.
0:29:30- Yeah.
0:29:31And I did get one, something similar to that
0:29:33a couple of days before about my appointment
0:29:36that was from a real person,
0:29:37but was just, they let the voicemail.
0:29:39So I'm in the system, the Apple system now,
0:29:44and that laptop is gone to who knows where
0:29:47to do who knows what, right?
0:29:51Like, meanwhile, back at home, I should say,
0:29:54Lauren is currently using, as we speak, in fact,
0:29:57my M1 MacBook Air.
0:29:59That was an interesting issue
0:30:01'cause I had this moment where I realized
0:30:02this is probably gonna take more than,
0:30:04or it could, before I had gone there,
0:30:06could take more than a couple of days, right?
0:30:09This is probably a longer kind of outage.
0:30:12So I backed up her MacBook Air to Time Machine,
0:30:17to new fresh Time Machine backup.
0:30:20I got an external drive that I have, an external SSD,
0:30:26that I formatted and I downloaded the Big Sur installer
0:30:29and installed Big Sur on it.
0:30:31And then I restored her Time Machine backup
0:30:36to the external drive running Big Sur.
0:30:39So basically she's booted off of an external drive
0:30:43on an M1 MacBook Air that is essentially a backup,
0:30:47a replication of her computer.
0:30:49And probably when it comes back,
0:30:50she'll just, I'll migrate her back and it'll be on Big Sur
0:30:55'cause she was on Catalina or Mojave or something like that.
0:30:57And doing, cloning a Big Sur drive is problematic
0:31:02and having it be bootable anyway.
0:31:04The old school way would have been to just clone her drive
0:31:08and then boot off of it.
0:31:09But the M1 Macs only run Big Sur and they're Apple Silicon,
0:31:13so it's more complicated than that and all that.
0:31:14So in any event, it works.
0:31:17I've got it booted off of an external drive.
0:31:20It's basically her computer updated to Big Sur
0:31:24as far as she can see running on that external drive.
0:31:27And it will do the job for her in the meantime.
0:31:31And yeah, she's gonna get a Big Sur upgrade out of it
0:31:35because I think after working on it
0:31:37for probably more than a week,
0:31:39she's probably not gonna wanna just go back
0:31:41even if her drive is still intact.
0:31:43She's probably not gonna wanna go back to her hard drive
0:31:46as it existed two weeks ago.
0:31:47So the question that remains is what will happen
0:31:53to this laptop when it comes back?
0:31:55What's gonna happen to it?
0:31:56And I know that probably a lot of our listeners
0:31:58have been through this, but just I haven't been,
0:32:02so I wanted to at least talk about it.
0:32:04By the way, this program covers,
0:32:06and I'm gonna quote here, eligible MacBook, MacBook Air,
0:32:08and MacBook Pro models for four years
0:32:10after the first retail sale of the unit.
0:32:12So basically, if you have a butterfly keyboard laptop
0:32:16and you bought it in 2017, let's say,
0:32:20time is running out if it hasn't run out already
0:32:22for you to do this program.
0:32:24And I would say if your keyboard's weird
0:32:26and you have a way to keep doing whatever it is you're doing
0:32:31before this time runs out, you should do this program,
0:32:36because Apple gave you a keyboard
0:32:39that it acknowledges doesn't work right,
0:32:41you should probably take advantage of the program
0:32:43while you can, problem being,
0:32:46do you need to actually do things
0:32:48with a computer in the interim
0:32:49and who knows how long it'll be?
0:32:50- Putting in there.
0:32:52- So this is one of the things that's the great mystery.
0:32:54I believe, depending on your model,
0:32:56they're swapping the keyboard with something different,
0:33:00but I'm unclear whether all of these models
0:33:03are getting the kind of final form
0:33:05of the butterfly keyboard,
0:33:10where they did, again, it's still a butterfly keyboard,
0:33:11but they put different kind of stuff
0:33:14on the switches and stuff to improve materials.
0:33:16- What did I say, improved materials?
0:33:17Yeah, that's a great phrase.
0:33:19- But I'm unclear if the improved materials
0:33:21are even compatible with the older models.
0:33:24Like, can the 2018 Air that my wife has,
0:33:27does it get the improved materials or does it just get--
0:33:29- Good name for a band, improved materials.
0:33:32- The improved materials?
0:33:33Yeah, I saw them open at the Fillmore.
0:33:36- Okay.
0:33:37- I vaguely remember that there's some models
0:33:38that can get the improved materials and some that can't.
0:33:41And this is the part that's frustrating, right,
0:33:45is if your bad butterfly keyboard gets replaced
0:33:48with another bad butterfly keyboard,
0:33:50it's presumably still gonna go bad.
0:33:54It's just gonna start back--
0:33:55- It's like resets the clock on it, right?
0:33:57- Yeah, exactly.
0:33:58It resets the clock is exactly right.
0:34:00So, what a mess.
0:34:03I would say it doesn't feel particularly generous to me
0:34:06that Apple sets the four-year clock on this too.
0:34:09'Cause what they're really saying is
0:34:12after you've had a laptop for four years,
0:34:14if the keyboard, which is your only input method
0:34:17if you wanna use it as a laptop,
0:34:18is totally busted and doesn't work right, too bad,
0:34:20you had your four years.
0:34:22Seems strange to me.
0:34:25Like, I don't know, not particularly generous.
0:34:28It's nice that they've got this program,
0:34:30and you could argue that it's good
0:34:32that they've got the program.
0:34:33Of course it is, but also they've got these keyboards
0:34:36that are really unreliable and not great.
0:34:40But I will say also just it's another reminder
0:34:44that although like when we were talking
0:34:46about the Apple report card, everybody's like,
0:34:48"Yay, the butterfly keyboards are finally gone."
0:34:51They're not, they're not, because until May of 2020,
0:34:57Apple was still selling butterfly keyboard laptops,
0:35:04which means this program will presumably be in effect
0:35:08until the middle of 2024,
0:35:11when the last butterfly keyboard laptop
0:35:15has its four year date since it was initially sold at retail.
0:35:19So you could argue that we're gonna be living
0:35:23with the butterfly keyboard until at least 2024.
0:35:26Anyway, I'll report back on when this thing gets back,
0:35:31whenever that is, I don't know if it's in a pile of snow
0:35:33in Texas somewhere or where it is
0:35:35or what's going on with it,
0:35:36but it's been interesting to go through it,
0:35:40and I'm very glad that we have the luxury
0:35:42of having a laptop that I can basically use
0:35:46as the replacement for this in the meantime.
0:35:50And that is a luxury and I totally admit that,
0:35:53and that's one of the challenges with even like,
0:35:55well, Apple's got a program, so that's fine.
0:35:57If you've got to give away your only computer
0:35:59for an unknown amount of time so that its keyboard works,
0:36:03that's not great, right?
0:36:04That's not great.
0:36:05- Has Lauren expressed any kind of opinion
0:36:07on the M1 MacBook Pro, MacBook Air?
0:36:11- No, other than to say,
0:36:14am I gonna feel like my computer is really bad
0:36:18when I get it back?
0:36:20And I think the answer is no,
0:36:21and I think the answer is no really,
0:36:22because although this is an M1 MacBook Air,
0:36:24it is also booted off of an external USB drive,
0:36:28and therefore external drives are not the fastest.
0:36:32- You've basically leveled it out.
0:36:35- Trying, I'm trying, don't make it look too good.
0:36:37But there is a possibility that she'll get hers back
0:36:39and be like, this laptop is garbage, get me a new laptop.
0:36:43I'm like, all right, well, you know, if it comes to that.
0:36:46- So, Brydge, we've spoken about Brydge
0:36:50for a long time on this show.
0:36:51We were both long-time users of Brydge.
0:36:53- But not in about a year, funny how that happened.
0:36:57- Because Apple released the Magic Folio,
0:37:00oh my gosh, Magic Keyboard.
0:37:02I really struggle with the name of that product,
0:37:05because there are so many other products
0:37:06that have existed throughout history called Magic Keyboard.
0:37:09- And indeed, the most important part
0:37:11of the Magic Keyboard is the trackpad.
0:37:13- Is the trackpad.
0:37:15So I really wish that they would have given it
0:37:17a completely different name than the one that they gave.
0:37:19- Magic Keyboard, yeah, and when I write about it,
0:37:21I have to say Magic Keyboard for iPad.
0:37:23- Yeah, is that what they call it, Magic Keyboard for iPad?
0:37:26Or is it just Magic Keyboard?
0:37:27- Well, it's Magic Keyboard for iPad Pro
0:37:29is initially what they called it,
0:37:30but now one of them is Magic Keyboard
0:37:32for iPad Pro and iPad Air, because it fits both.
0:37:36It's, hmm.
0:37:38- But really, as you say, the identifying feature
0:37:40of the Magic Keyboard is the trackpad.
0:37:42- Yes, that's right.
0:37:44- Because they have had lots of keyboards before.
0:37:48Some of them were smart.
0:37:49So we stopped talking about Brydge products
0:37:54because of the introduction of the Magic Keyboard,
0:37:56because we had loved Brydge for years,
0:37:59because it basically turned our iPads into laptops,
0:38:02it had great adjustability,
0:38:03and put a keyboard right there front and center.
0:38:06Then when Apple released their product,
0:38:08they put a trackpad on it,
0:38:09which was exactly what you wanted.
0:38:11We were speaking about it in the time, right?
0:38:13There was all this space at the bottom of the Brydge keyboard
0:38:15where my wrists went, and it would be lovely
0:38:17if there was a trackpad there, and we hoped it could happen.
0:38:19- And they make them for Windows tablets.
0:38:22They make a Brydge keyboard with a trackpad.
0:38:24- And we were hoping they would do it,
0:38:26and this is the funny thing, is they did do it
0:38:31before the Magic Keyboard,
0:38:35because they were taking advantage of the--
0:38:38- Assistive touch.
0:38:39- There we go, the assistive touch cursor.
0:38:41But by the time that Brydge had got that product
0:38:45to the point where it was ready to ship,
0:38:48Apple dropped the second shoe
0:38:50and released the full-on cursor support
0:38:54and the Magic Keyboard.
0:38:56So at that point, we kind of moved on.
0:38:59But also, unfortunately for Brydge,
0:39:02the Brydge Pro Plus, which was the product that they released
0:39:06was a very bad product to use
0:39:10because of some limitations around what they could do
0:39:14with the trackpad.
0:39:15So you reviewed the original one.
0:39:17As a refresher, it was basically that they had to kind of
0:39:20emulate a mouse rather than let it be a trackpad,
0:39:24is that right?
0:39:25- Right, that's my understanding,
0:39:27is that the iPad and iPadOS didn't support
0:39:32Bluetooth trackpads, it supported Bluetooth mice.
0:39:37And so they were faking trackpad support,
0:39:42but the trackpad was really sort of behaving like a mouse.
0:39:45And there were lots of limitations.
0:39:46And so when I tried it, it didn't do multi-touch gestures.
0:39:50The two-finger scroll was really janky.
0:39:53Cursor movement wasn't precise.
0:39:56It just wasn't very good.
0:39:58And this was with the cursor support,
0:39:59'cause I remember writing about it in that window
0:40:01where the cursor support came out,
0:40:03but the Magic keyboards hadn't shipped yet.
0:40:06Remember, they announced it, but they weren't out yet.
0:40:08It was in the early days of the pandemic.
0:40:10They weren't quite out yet.
0:40:12And it was clearly not good enough.
0:40:16And it pained me to write that article
0:40:18because I've liked their keyboards for so long,
0:40:20and I've written about how much I liked their keyboards.
0:40:23And then I used their trackpad and basically said,
0:40:26this isn't good enough.
0:40:27Like I wouldn't use this.
0:40:28I would rather not use a trackpad
0:40:30than use this trackpad.
0:40:32It just wasn't not good enough.
0:40:33And then you get the Magic keyboard.
0:40:35And the Magic, 'cause the question was hanging out there,
0:40:37like, well, what will the Magic keyboard feel like?
0:40:39And the answer is exactly like the Magic trackpad
0:40:43on laptops and desktops.
0:40:44Like, exactly.
0:40:45It is the full Apple trackpad experience.
0:40:50So basically at that point,
0:40:53I stopped using the Brydge keyboard
0:40:55and I just used the Magic keyboard for iPad
0:40:58because it had the good trackpad.
0:41:01And also the keys were good.
0:41:03Although, arguably I think the Brydge keyboard
0:41:05ergonomically is better.
0:41:09I think the keyboard is as good or better.
0:41:12The laptop feel is nice.
0:41:15It definitely is shaped like a laptop.
0:41:19You can move the hinge like a laptop.
0:41:21It's got a broader range of-
0:41:22- More traditional range of viewing angle, I could say.
0:41:28- Right, then the Magic keyboard,
0:41:29which has obviously got the kind of multi-fold design
0:41:32and it hovers over the keys and stuff.
0:41:35It's a different kind of feel.
0:41:36They got function row, so you can do brightness and stuff
0:41:39that is not on Apple's keyboards for iPad.
0:41:42There are all sorts of reasons, but bottom line was,
0:41:45but this one's got a good trackpad,
0:41:47so I'm gonna use this one.
0:41:49And it's been like that until basically last week.
0:41:53- So the 14.5 beta came out.
0:41:58With the ability for companies like Brydge
0:42:02to have an improved experience, right?
0:42:04- So Brydge isn't talking about it.
0:42:10Nobody's talking about it.
0:42:13But you can read between the lines,
0:42:15which is something happened in this iPad OS beta
0:42:20that allows them to do a trackpad.
0:42:23And it's not quite, Logitech has their case
0:42:28for the iPad Air that has a trackpad,
0:42:33but it's smart connector based.
0:42:37So if I put two and two together,
0:42:41I guess what I'm saying is that obviously
0:42:43smart connector based trackpad input was working before,
0:42:46but for Bluetooth based trackpad input
0:42:50for a non-Apple trackpad,
0:42:53I guess this, I don't know if it's that
0:42:55or if it's a device that's doing both keyboard
0:42:58and trackpad as one Bluetooth device,
0:43:01but something is going on where they literally
0:43:04require the latest iOS, iPad OS beta
0:43:08in order for this to work.
0:43:09So clearly that's a very strong indicator
0:43:12that they literally could not do this
0:43:13until Apple did something inside the operating system
0:43:16that we don't know what it is.
0:43:18But they do now have a, you can sign up
0:43:21for getting on their test flight
0:43:22and their test flight is for an app
0:43:24that is a firmware updater,
0:43:26and you have to be on the latest iPad OS beta,
0:43:30and you run the firmware updater
0:43:32and your Bridge Pro Plus keyboard gets a firmware update
0:43:37that makes it behave like a trackpad
0:43:42instead of like a mouse,
0:43:44pretend mouse that's actually a trackpad.
0:43:47And it basically behaves the same
0:43:50as the Logitech product does,
0:43:53except it's Bluetooth instead of smart connector.
0:43:55Basically behaves the same way,
0:43:57which it surprised me 'cause I did a lot,
0:44:01Myke, I spent a lot of time last week
0:44:03looking at my hands.
0:44:05Have you ever really looked at your hand, man?
0:44:07Seriously though, I would say this to anybody,
0:44:13look at, stop for a second when you're using your trackpad
0:44:18and look at it and look at where your fingers are.
0:44:21You'll be like, I do that?
0:44:22'Cause I discovered all sorts of very quirky finger motions
0:44:26that I've completely internalized
0:44:28that I built up over decades of using trackpads,
0:44:32including using my thumb to click,
0:44:34which is clearly because Apple used to have the button
0:44:37underneath the trackpad.
0:44:39And so you click it with your thumb
0:44:40and I've never stopped clicking with my thumb.
0:44:43It just happens on the bottom of the trackpad now.
0:44:46So, and I do this thing where I've got my thumb on there
0:44:50and then I move with my index finger
0:44:53and then I, before the index finger is even done moving,
0:44:57I lay my thumb back down and then once it stops, I click.
0:45:01It's this very, I videoed myself doing mousing gestures
0:45:06to try and figure out what was going on.
0:45:08And what I learned while doing all of this sort of stuff
0:45:12is the bridge trackpad and the Logitech trackpad
0:45:17have limitations that are not on Apple's magic trackpad
0:45:23or the trackpad in the magic keyboard for iPad.
0:45:27So that's interesting, right?
0:45:30Like there's not a universal,
0:45:31it turns out one of the things I learned
0:45:33is Apple's really good at trackpad firmware
0:45:35and they have, there's a lot of secret sauce
0:45:37in the magic trackpad.
0:45:39And the one that really got me
0:45:40is I do a lot of two finger scrolling
0:45:43with my two fingers down vertically
0:45:49and that works great on the magic trackpad.
0:45:54On the bridge and the Logitech trackpads,
0:45:57doesn't, it doesn't see them.
0:45:59And in fact, you have to kind of rotate until,
0:46:02you have to be less than 45 degrees horizontal
0:46:06for it to see the two finger scroll.
0:46:08- That's like really weird.
0:46:11- Isn't it weird?
0:46:12And now if all trackpads ever required you to be
0:46:16at 45 or less and not at 90 degrees,
0:46:19I would have trained myself a long time ago
0:46:23to not do that, right?
0:46:24And I think this is the key here is
0:46:29can you train yourself to do,
0:46:34retrain yourself to use the trackpad in a way
0:46:38that is not the way you use it with the Apple trackpad?
0:46:41The answer is absolutely yes.
0:46:42It's sort of a subset of motions
0:46:44that these trackpads support,
0:46:45not just the bridge, but the Logitech.
0:46:48But I do find it fascinating, right?
0:46:50Like it revealed a level of secret sauce
0:46:53that I wasn't aware was there in Apple's firmware.
0:46:57And so this new trackpad firmware, it's pretty good.
0:47:01And I would say it's pretty good,
0:47:03but there are gonna be little quirks
0:47:04where you're gonna say,
0:47:05"I need to move my fingers slightly differently
0:47:08in order to do this than I would on a magic trackpad."
0:47:11And it's almost half the price of the magic keyboard.
0:47:16So there's lots going for it.
0:47:19But the bottom line is also that
0:47:21if you want the best trackpad experience on an iPad,
0:47:25the magic keyboard is the answer
0:47:27because it does have that secret sauce
0:47:29that the third party device is not just the bridge,
0:47:33but the Logitech one that was sort of blessed by Apple,
0:47:37even that one doesn't have all the secret sauce.
0:47:40- I kind of don't understand what the point of that is.
0:47:43Like if they are holding it back
0:47:46from being as seamless as it could be.
0:47:49- I think it's a question of
0:47:52what is Apple's responsibility as a platform owner
0:47:57to the makers of third-party accessories, right?
0:47:59- Like if I get Bluetooth trackpad
0:48:03made by whatever technology company
0:48:06and attach it to my Mac,
0:48:07I don't think I would have these same kind of issues.
0:48:11- I don't know, I think maybe you would.
0:48:12- Or a mouse or something.
0:48:14- Well, but a mouse is gonna behave like a mouse.
0:48:15I think you might.
0:48:16I think what this reveals is that Apple considers
0:48:20some level of the intelligence
0:48:21that it's putting into its trackpad firmware
0:48:24to be proprietary,
0:48:26and that it really does want the best trackpad experience
0:48:29to be on Apple hardware.
0:48:30- And for all we know,
0:48:32I mean, 'cause I don't know this,
0:48:33I don't know if you know this,
0:48:35Bridge might be able to make their experience better.
0:48:37Like they might have to do some stuff with their firmware
0:48:40where they can get it closer.
0:48:41- That's absolutely true,
0:48:43and I don't wanna reveal too much,
0:48:45but I used a few different versions of their firmware
0:48:49in TestFlight before they announced this.
0:48:52And there's certainly power that they have
0:48:55and control that they have.
0:48:57But what struck me is there may be limitations
0:48:59that are just limitations on anybody who's not Apple.
0:49:02And obviously Apple has not only the resources
0:49:08to fine tune this firmware and a huge user base,
0:49:12but it's really also that they've been refining this stuff
0:49:16for decades, right?
0:49:19Like the first trackpad on a PowerBook was in the 90s.
0:49:26They had had a long time,
0:49:28and with the original Magic Trackpad
0:49:30and with the second Magic Trackpad,
0:49:32and the fact that two thirds, three quarters of the Macs
0:49:34they sell are all laptops, so they've all got trackpads.
0:49:37Like Apple's been at the trackpad game
0:49:40and satisfying lots of customers
0:49:42and finding lots of quirks probably
0:49:45in how people use their fingers on a trackpad
0:49:47for a long time.
0:49:49So they should have secret sauce.
0:49:51And they could potentially share that with others,
0:49:54but I think they could also just not.
0:49:57And I don't know whether it's a technical thing
0:50:00or it's a decision on their part,
0:50:04but it's something that I hadn't really expected
0:50:07when I went into this.
0:50:09I assumed that a trackpad was a trackpad,
0:50:11and that's not true.
0:50:13I mean, we already knew,
0:50:15also I'll say the software update thing,
0:50:16like you can use a Magic Trackpad too via Bluetooth
0:50:21with an iPad, and you don't need the latest public beta
0:50:24of iPad OS, right?
0:50:26So Apple's trackpad works great via Bluetooth,
0:50:31whereas the bridge trackpad needs a software update,
0:50:34an OS update to work via Bluetooth.
0:50:39Why is that?
0:50:40I think in the end it's the same thing,
0:50:42which is home field advantage of Apple as the platform owner
0:50:45and they're pouring more of that secret sauce in there,
0:50:49which is their stuff is the best stuff on their platform
0:50:54and they like it that way.
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0:52:41Got a couple of Mark Gurman reports.
0:52:44These are small reports.
0:52:46I think we could maybe come up with a name.
0:52:47They're like Gurman lights or something.
0:52:50I don't know.
0:52:51- Well, Gurman bites.
0:52:52Gurman-- - Gurman bites.
0:52:54Mark bites. - Yes, mini Gurmans.
0:52:56- Apparently Apple is working on a magnetically
0:52:59attached battery pack for iPhones with MagSafe.
0:53:03This has been in development for a year.
0:53:05There's been stumbling blocks as there always is.
0:53:07The key difference here is that this product
0:53:10is not a case as we've seen in previous years,
0:53:13just a battery pack with MagSafe on it
0:53:15and you put it on and it charges up.
0:53:18The report also references that plans
0:53:20for reverse wireless charging on iPhones
0:53:23as a potential feature has been put on
0:53:26what seems like an indefinite hold.
0:53:29So this is the idea.
0:53:29So this is like two little things in one here,
0:53:31but the second part is that you could charge
0:53:34your AirPods on the back of your iPhone.
0:53:36It was a thing that we all thought,
0:53:37well, many of us thought that they would add
0:53:39and seems like they're not.
0:53:40But what do you think about this MagSafe battery pack?
0:53:45- I don't know, what I've heard is that
0:53:47it's not very efficient, that this kind of
0:53:50charging technology is not very efficient
0:53:52and so you'd be better off with a battery pack
0:53:55that you plug in.
0:53:56But that said, it's part of the MagSafe ecosystem, right?
0:54:01Attach this thing and I think there are others out there
0:54:03that do this already.
0:54:05- I think some companies make like Qi charging battery packs.
0:54:09Right, like that is a thing that you can get.
0:54:11But I guess one of the benefits that you would get
0:54:13with MagSafe of course is that you don't have to be
0:54:17delicate with it, right?
0:54:18Like if you're just Qi charging on a thing,
0:54:20you've got to like hold that thing all together
0:54:22and make sure it doesn't come off.
0:54:24But with MagSafe, it's going to attach.
0:54:26- It's attached and aligned and maybe you can even
0:54:30put it in your pocket and it will stay attached.
0:54:32And yeah, I am not a big battery pack person.
0:54:37I'm no Alex Cox, for example, who lives with a battery pack.
0:54:42But I think it's fine and I think Apple should be doing this.
0:54:45This is a continuation of Apple's whole thing with MagSafe,
0:54:48which is they're not just rolling out an iPhone feature,
0:54:51they're rolling out a sort of constellation of accessories.
0:54:56Right, accessories from Apple, accessories from third parties
0:54:59and they've had success with their battery packs
0:55:02in the past, battery cases.
0:55:04So why not do this too?
0:55:06It'll be undoubtedly more expensive than any alternative,
0:55:10but also it'll be the one from Apple.
0:55:12So people will buy it.
0:55:14- It will be baked into the system.
0:55:15Like I always liked the battery cases.
0:55:17- Secret sauce, Myke.
0:55:18- Oh my word, how many more times do you,
0:55:20how many more times do you think you can conceivably get
0:55:23that into today's episode?
0:55:24Like if you're not forcing it?
0:55:26Couple more? - We're talking about Apple.
0:55:27Apple is, I mean, what's the secret sauce gonna be?
0:55:30I think that's the whole game plan.
0:55:32Yeah.
0:55:33- I have used the battery cases for the last couple
0:55:37of iPhones.
0:55:38I don't have obviously any need to get a battery case
0:55:43or pack for my current iPhone because usually I would use
0:55:47these when I was traveling.
0:55:49I reckon I might be able to get this entire life cycle
0:55:53of my iPhone without any kind of battery pack or case on it.
0:55:57But this is a interesting method of doing it.
0:56:01Again, I mean, I've mentioned this before.
0:56:04I'm not super into wireless charging as a technology.
0:56:08It kind of, I don't know, things get hot and stuff.
0:56:12Like I'm always hearing about Apple's always having problems
0:56:15with these products, keep catching fire.
0:56:17You know, like those in in Goemann's report,
0:56:20they said like, oh, in these early stages,
0:56:21they were having overheating reliability issues
0:56:24with this product.
0:56:25It's like, yeah, I'm not surprised.
0:56:27Everything seems to go wrong when Qi charging is introduced.
0:56:30So the only thing that's one's for me.
0:56:32I'm a way away from being a Qi charging person.
0:56:34I still charge the good old way with a cable.
0:56:37But everybody else that I know,
0:56:40including everybody else in my household loves MagSafe,
0:56:43but it's just not my thing.
0:56:44Plus I'm a PopSocket person, which is another big reason.
0:56:46- Right, oh boy.
0:56:47- It's incredibly difficult to try and make that all work out.
0:56:51- I have the MagSafe wallet.
0:56:52I bought a MagSafe wallet.
0:56:54- You did?
0:56:55- I did, I like it.
0:56:56- Huh, okay.
0:56:57- Yeah, I like it.
0:56:58Instead of having to put my phone and my wallet
0:57:01in my pocket, I put my phone with my wallet in my pocket.
0:57:05Well, those rare instances where I go outside.
0:57:08- Yeah, you see, I just have to also have a feeling
0:57:10of like you lose one, you lose both, you know?
0:57:12- Oh, I mean, that's okay.
0:57:16Yes, I suppose that's true.
0:57:18- And 5G, forget about it.
0:57:22It's time for 6G.
0:57:23Apple has engineers working on their own
0:57:25radio system for 6G. - We're doing all the Gs.
0:57:27More Gs.
0:57:29- Apparently Apple have decided they wanna be ahead
0:57:32of the curve when it comes to 6G.
0:57:34And, but this is a sign of what's coming to them
0:57:36in the future anyway, that they are not going
0:57:39to be using partner products for modems and radios.
0:57:42- You know why, Myke?
0:57:43You know why Apple wants to build--
0:57:45- I would love to know why, tell me.
0:57:46- 'Cause they want to put in their own secret sauce.
0:57:48- Oh, look at that.
0:57:49You did it.
0:57:50I'm proud of you, really.
0:57:51'Cause it was so soon and it's still legitimate.
0:57:54- Yeah.
0:57:55- But this was, you know, you remember from the Qualcomm
0:57:57story and then Apple buying up Intel's modem division.
0:58:00They are moving this way anyway.
0:58:026G is about 10 years away.
0:58:04So I expect that before 6G is even a thing,
0:58:06Apple's using their own 5G modems
0:58:08and maybe the iPhone 14 or something.
0:58:11- Right, right. - So, you know,
0:58:13this is definitely in their future.
0:58:16- We should take bets about what year AT&T
0:58:21will declare their latest 5G technology as 6G.
0:58:27- I reckon it's like four or five years away.
0:58:32- Okay.
0:58:32- Because if 6G is 10 years away,
0:58:35I could imagine them about halfway through
0:58:37that period of time, it will become spoken about more
0:58:40and they'll just be like, here we go, 6G time.
0:58:42- In 2026.
0:58:43- Yep.
0:58:44- What better time than 26 for 6G?
0:58:47- There you go.
0:58:48- Except it won't be 6G.
0:58:49It'll be AT&T.
0:58:50- Well, AT&T, we'll call it that.
0:58:51- 5G, branded as 6G.
0:58:54- So what does AT&T call 5G?
0:58:56They call it 5G and then 4G is 5GE, is that how it works?
0:58:59- Oh, I think they call it like 5G Plus or something.
0:59:04I don't even know.
0:59:05I don't have 5G.
0:59:06I don't have it because it would require me
0:59:08to go on a much more expensive plan
0:59:11and also I don't leave my house.
0:59:12So I don't know. - Yeah, it's not needed
0:59:13for now.
0:59:14- I guess technically I have AT&T, so I do have 5G.
0:59:17It's just not really 5G.
0:59:19- You have AT&T's 5G, which is the real 5G
0:59:22as we know it to be.
0:59:23- If you say so. - It's the one
0:59:24that's everywhere.
0:59:26This is a non-Mark Gurman report.
0:59:28I saw this reported on MacRumors.
0:59:30I've seen a bunch of websites reporting on this too.
0:59:34There's a claimed leaked image
0:59:36showing the design of AirPods 3.
0:59:38This has come from a website called 52audio.
0:59:41Now obviously we can't corroborate the reliability
0:59:44of these images, but they do seem in line
0:59:46with rumors from Mark Gurman and Ming-Chi Kuo
0:59:49on what Apple's next AirPods could feature
0:59:51and potentially look like.
0:59:53Now what I want to do just for the purpose
0:59:56of this discussion is just assume
0:59:58that this image is correct, right?
1:00:00'Cause I think it just makes it more interesting
1:00:02for discussion for us to just,
1:00:03let's just take as read that the images
1:00:05that are in this article are correct.
1:00:08And this is what the next AirPods are gonna look like.
1:00:09- I'm very skeptical about these, but okay.
1:00:13- Well, we can talk about that skepticism
1:00:15even in the idea of these being real or not
1:00:18because it's about the product itself.
1:00:20Because I think there is a potential
1:00:22that it could go this way.
1:00:22The key design detail that is shown here
1:00:25that we're talking about is that the AirPods 3,
1:00:27so it would be the addition to the standard AirPods,
1:00:31the revision to the original design,
1:00:33is that they're basically going to look
1:00:35just like AirPods Pro.
1:00:37So much smaller, we have the in-ear silicone system,
1:00:41so the earphones go in your ears.
1:00:43And if they do this, this is a big departure
1:00:47from the current AirPods design,
1:00:48which I think would make a lot of people pretty upset
1:00:51because not everyone likes the in-ear headphones.
1:00:55- Well, okay, so my skepticism here is also not just
1:01:02what's the source, but also what are AirPods Pro
1:01:08if these are AirPods?
1:01:10What's the difference?
1:01:11Because this looks very much like Apple's going
1:01:13to do new AirPods, their AirPods Pro.
1:01:20How are these differentiated from AirPods Pro?
1:01:23What's left?
1:01:24- So, 52 Audio claimed that these AirPods 3
1:01:27feature the pressure-believing system that AirPods Pro have,
1:01:31so they've got, like, it equalizes the pressure.
1:01:34But it seems like that's it, so it doesn't seem like
1:01:36this active noise cancellation in it.
1:01:39We assume probably no transparency mode,
1:01:42and so let's imagine that that's what it has for now.
1:01:45- But they do have the touch control indentations
1:01:49in these renders or images or whatever they are,
1:01:52so that's a feature.
1:01:53So noise cancellation is the difference
1:01:55between AirPods and AirPods Pro?
1:01:57- I think that that would probably be safe to assume
1:01:59would be the thing.
1:02:01- All right.
1:02:02- So that might be it, right?
1:02:03- So they're basically just lesser AirPods Pro.
1:02:05- But isn't that, so, you know, on that, though,
1:02:11isn't that the Apple thing to do?
1:02:14To, like, make AirPods quote-unquote better
1:02:18and then make AirPods Pro better still?
1:02:20- It is.
1:02:21I think the question, and maybe where we're getting hung up,
1:02:24is this concern that AirPods and AirPods Pro
1:02:27don't fit the same, and that people for whom AirPods fit
1:02:31are going to be sad because the new AirPods don't fit them.
1:02:36Now, I'm reminded that when AirPods Pro came out,
1:02:39Apple made a big deal in the launch of saying,
1:02:46this is all based on our research into the shapes of ears
1:02:50worldwide, and it's a much better shape
1:02:53that's compatible with more ears than our old AirPods.
1:02:57So that might be their premise,
1:02:59is that AirPods should be shaped like AirPods Pro
1:03:03because it's a better shape that fits more ears.
1:03:06It will be a real bummer for the people
1:03:09for whom AirPods Pro don't fit comfortably, but AirPods do.
1:03:13- So I love my AirPods Pro, but--
1:03:16- Me too.
1:03:17- My left one falls out all the time.
1:03:20Doesn't matter what size tip I use, doesn't matter.
1:03:24And my left ear has always been the ear
1:03:27that has bothered me with these types of headphones.
1:03:30And AirPods Pro are not uncomfortable for me
1:03:32like others are, but the left one just doesn't stay in.
1:03:34This never happened with standard AirPods.
1:03:38They never fell out, but the left one falls out.
1:03:40So maybe my ear canal is misshapen or whatever,
1:03:43but this is the thing, right?
1:03:44So some people don't like it,
1:03:46and for some people it just doesn't work, like for me.
1:03:49Now if that annoyed me enough, I would stop using them.
1:03:52But I find the transparency and noise cancellation features
1:03:54to be so good and the touch sensitivity
1:03:57on the stalks of the things to be so good
1:04:00that I'll take it, right?
1:04:01It's like fine, I will use it.
1:04:03But I would be surprised if, not surprised,
1:04:08I would be, I think, a little bit disappointed
1:04:11if this was the only option.
1:04:14- Have you tried some other ear tip kind of thing
1:04:18on your left ear for AirPods Pro?
1:04:20- Foam is fine.
1:04:21Sony Silicon I have the issue with.
1:04:23If I use foam tips, they're fine,
1:04:25but I just don't really like foam tips.
1:04:28- Have you tried Federico's thing
1:04:30where you put the foam under the silicone
1:04:33and so it's providing the kind of like the push
1:04:36that foam does? - I haven't tried that.
1:04:37No, I haven't tried that.
1:04:38- Federico really made some company's day by-
1:04:42- Yeah, by writing about that, yeah.
1:04:44Writing that and talking about it on connected.
1:04:46But that might be something to try.
1:04:49As an aside, there's a company that I use
1:04:52that makes custom silicone ear tips
1:04:55that I use for my headphones.
1:04:57And they offered a version that works for AirPods Pro.
1:05:01And I thought, well, that's really interesting.
1:05:06It turns out it's literally an in-ear tip
1:05:10and then there's this thing sticking out
1:05:14that is where you put the AirPod.
1:05:15And they really expect you to walk around
1:05:18with AirPods Pro just sort of bouncing around
1:05:21on the outside of your ears.
1:05:24- Oh. - If they're with
1:05:25a little hole, it's so bad. - So they didn't make
1:05:27a little connector to go into the plasticy thing,
1:05:30like the little clip-in? - No.
1:05:31- Oh, that's a real shame. - It's really bad.
1:05:34- That's so hilarious.
1:05:35That must be so uncomfortable too.
1:05:38- Yeah, it's not, it's really bad.
1:05:40- Yeah, they bungled it. - So now, basically now
1:05:42I've got a pair of earplugs. (laughs)
1:05:45They're very nice earplugs.
1:05:47Just, you can snip off the little outside part
1:05:49and it's a very nice earplug.
1:05:51Take it to concerts when I go to concerts again.
1:05:54- I could easily imagine them changing the design
1:05:57and I think they should change the design,
1:05:59like the overall physical shape and size and look
1:06:02to look like AirPods Pro because they're the cooler ones.
1:06:05But I just think it would be a shame to remove
1:06:09the plastic ear design that they had before, you know?
1:06:14- Yeah, I get it.
1:06:18I mean, Apple is not afraid to do that
1:06:20and I can tell you that if this is what they do,
1:06:23they will absolutely say that these are shapes
1:06:26that are more compatible with more ears.
1:06:28And that the removable tips, if they've got
1:06:33the same removable tip design, they'll say,
1:06:34and the removable tips help you get a better fit
1:06:37and more people are gonna be able to use,
1:06:39have access to AirPods than before.
1:06:41But it will fundamentally, even if that's completely true,
1:06:44there will be people for whom the new AirPods won't fit
1:06:47that the old ones did.
1:06:50And that's, the question here is,
1:06:52is Apple trying to make a product line of headphones
1:06:54for people who have different desires,
1:06:56like one that goes in your ear and one that sits in,
1:06:59outside your ear and one that goes over your ear?
1:07:01Or are they following their other instinct,
1:07:03which is to sort of make everything uniform?
1:07:06And yeah, I'm with you.
1:07:08I would rather see Apple spread out
1:07:11their headphone design choices for ergonomic reasons
1:07:15than have it all be sort of like,
1:07:16well, we only make one AirPod shape and this is it.
1:07:19- So I will ask you now,
1:07:23do you think they will do this with silicone in-ears
1:07:26on AirPods, the future version of AirPods 3?
1:07:29Do you think that that is what Apple will do?
1:07:31- I think it's the most likely scenario is they will,
1:07:36because they'll be so proud of this design
1:07:40that they came up with for AirPods Pro
1:07:42that they're gonna wanna roll it back.
1:07:44And there might even be some savings
1:07:46in having the AirPods and AirPods Pro
1:07:48be kind of the same for a lot of this.
1:07:51So I think there's a chance that it's not true.
1:07:54I really do, but I think if I had to pick one,
1:07:58I would pick that it's true.
1:08:01I think that it will be too.
1:08:03And I hope that they have transparency mode.
1:08:07- Well, I'll tell you, if it's got the air flow path,
1:08:13then there's some degree of transparency already, right?
1:08:20Like that's letting air in from the outside.
1:08:22- I don't know if you've ever used AirPods Pro
1:08:24and just turned it off,
1:08:26'cause you can turn transparency and noise canceling off
1:08:29as like an offsetting.
1:08:30And that is too isolated for me.
1:08:32It's a natural isolation to that.
1:08:35And I don't feel comfortable
1:08:37and wouldn't feel comfortable being out in the street
1:08:39with that isolation level.
1:08:41- Yeah, I mean, covering up your ears with headphones
1:08:46makes a difference that the earbuds don't do.
1:08:48So absolutely.
1:08:50Yeah, I don't know.
1:08:52I don't know what they're gonna do,
1:08:53because you would think
1:08:55that if you can put it in transparency mode,
1:08:57then you're basically doing noise canceling, right?
1:09:01Like is that hardware any different?
1:09:02It's the same hardware.
1:09:03I don't know.
1:09:05I don't know.
1:09:06My skepticism about this report
1:09:09is that it looks an awful lot
1:09:10like it's just sort of a rebadging of some AirPods Pro
1:09:14and saying these are the new AirPods.
1:09:16And that could very easily just be a lazy goal
1:09:20of getting attention for a fake rumor.
1:09:24- Yeah, I agree with you.
1:09:26And I wouldn't have included this at all
1:09:27if reliable people like Mark Gurman and Ming-Chi Kuo
1:09:32have said things that are similar to this, right?
1:09:35There's a lot of detail we don't know,
1:09:37but the idea of them moving towards this one type of design
1:09:42seems possible.
1:09:44- Seems possible.
1:09:45I would probably advocate against it
1:09:48saying that the canal phone market and the earbud market
1:09:52are as different as the earbud market and the headphone,
1:09:57over-ear headphone market are different, right?
1:10:00Canal phones, I love them.
1:10:02I love sticking little headphone things in my ears.
1:10:06It's great.
1:10:07But some people hate it and I get it.
1:10:10I get that.
1:10:11And so why would you not give those people,
1:10:13I don't care how much better it is,
1:10:15having people have to stick the silicone tip
1:10:18of an earphone in their ear canal,
1:10:20like that's a deal breaker for a lot of people.
1:10:22And as you point out, there's also a safety issue
1:10:24if it's covering up their ability to hear their surroundings.
1:10:28So I would advocate against it,
1:10:30but it doesn't mean they won't do it.
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1:12:21Let's do some #AskUpgrade questions.
1:12:24Brans asks, "To avoid confusion between Apple TV, the app
1:12:29and Apple TV Plus, the service and Apple TV, the hardware,
1:12:33what would you rename the Apple TV hardware
1:12:36if there was a next generation coming?"
1:12:38I guess the first question is, would you or should they
1:12:43rename Apple TV?
1:12:44- Well, yeah. - To something else.
1:12:45- Yeah, I think it's really confusing,
1:12:47but I think that they can't go too far away.
1:12:50I liked Ben Thompson and John Gruber came to this idea
1:12:54of like call it Apple TV arcade or something
1:12:56if you're gonna focus on games.
1:12:58- Right.
1:12:59- Give it some differentiator just because Apple TV app,
1:13:03Apple TV Plus service,
1:13:04if there's a lot of Apple TV going on here,
1:13:07give it something to differentiate it.
1:13:09I guess technically it's the Apple TV 4K is what it's called,
1:13:13but that's not, I don't know.
1:13:15I don't have a good answer.
1:13:16I would say what's its focus and give it a name
1:13:20that reflects that focus. - Apple TV Pro.
1:13:22- So it could be Apple TV Pro, it could be Apple TV Home.
1:13:27If it's got home features, it could be Apple TV Arcade.
1:13:30If it's, they're gonna try to pitch it for Apple Arcade
1:13:33and bundle it with a controller or something like that.
1:13:36But it would be nice if they stuck a modifier on it.
1:13:38Sure would be nice.
1:13:39- Yeah, I would like a modifier for that,
1:13:41but realistically I would like a brand new name
1:13:44so I don't have to say the first two words,
1:13:47but the likelihood of that occurring is very slim.
1:13:49- It's very low.
1:13:50- Right, 'cause I don't wanna have to get to word three
1:13:53before you know what one I mean.
1:13:55- Yeah.
1:13:56- But that's just-- - Oh, there isn't a third word.
1:13:58Well then I know what you mean.
1:13:59- Yeah, if the third word is completely unrelated.
1:14:01- Apple TV.
1:14:02(laughing)
1:14:05- Yeah, like Ryan's saying in the chat, just call it ITV.
1:14:09- Yeah.
1:14:10- That was the original name. - I was acknowledged.
1:14:11- In case you didn't know that,
1:14:13but they faced issues with the ITV company here in the UK.
1:14:18- Indeed.
1:14:19- So they call that Apple TV.
1:14:20And I believe, you can correct me if I'm wrong,
1:14:23was the first product to get the Apple logo name.
1:14:27- I think you might be right.
1:14:31And very clearly that was a Steve Jobs thing, right?
1:14:33Where Steve Jobs was like, "Oh, it's ITV, whatever."
1:14:35And they're like, "We can't call it that."
1:14:37But I do think it may be prom,
1:14:39was a, if not the example, a very prominent example
1:14:43of Apple deciding that using I in front of everything
1:14:46was something they should stop doing
1:14:48and then brand everything Apple,
1:14:51followed by a generic with something they should start doing.
1:14:54- I stood for internet TV.
1:14:57Internet pad.
1:14:58- Sure.
1:14:59- Richard asks, "What are your thoughts on Clubhouse,
1:15:04especially as a compliment and/or evolution of podcasting?"
1:15:08- You have an opinion about Clubhouse, Myke?
1:15:11- Oh yeah, of course I do.
1:15:13You know I do.
1:15:15I wanna point people to a tweet that I very much enjoy
1:15:18from friend of the show Lex Friedman,
1:15:20which said, "Saying Clubhouse's podcast
1:15:23is like saying parties are plays."
1:15:26And I just thought it was,
1:15:27it so beautifully encapsulates my feeling
1:15:30about Clubhouse disrupting podcasting.
1:15:34Now, I see a lot of people saying,
1:15:37like getting upset about this because they say,
1:15:39"I as a podcast producer take umbrage to this
1:15:43because my podcast is so lovingly edited with music,"
1:15:47and et cetera, et cetera, right?
1:15:48Like and then people equate this idea of like,
1:15:52oh, people that make highly produced podcasts
1:15:55and people when they hear that
1:15:57think it has to have music underneath it.
1:16:00But I would say that what we do is still highly produced.
1:16:02They're heavily edited.
1:16:04And it's not the editing part for me
1:16:08that is why podcasts and Clubhouse are different.
1:16:13It's just because it's audio
1:16:16that you listen to on your phone
1:16:18doesn't mean that it's a podcast,
1:16:20nor that it will necessarily take people's time
1:16:22away from podcasting.
1:16:24It's like Apple Music is not podcasts,
1:16:28but they're both audio I listen to on my phone.
1:16:30I find it strange how especially it seems like
1:16:33this happens a lot in Silicon Valley
1:16:35and especially when anything's VC related.
1:16:37Everything has to be something else.
1:16:41It has to disrupt something that already exists.
1:16:43It has to be a better version of something we already have.
1:16:48And I don't know why it has to be that way.
1:16:51Like it is perfectly valid to say that Clubhouse
1:16:54is a new thing that exists and will be its own thing.
1:17:00And isn't that a better thing to say than to be like,
1:17:04oh, this is now gonna kill podcasting.
1:17:07It's like Twitch doesn't kill YouTube videos.
1:17:10But that's what's going,
1:17:12it's like that's how I think of it.
1:17:14Like YouTube videos are by and large
1:17:16these highly produced things that take a lot of time
1:17:19and effort to put together and they're concise
1:17:22and they've been a lot of preppers gone into them.
1:17:24And then you have Twitch streaming,
1:17:25which is typically more free form.
1:17:28There's less work that goes into it beforehand.
1:17:30There's no work that goes into it
1:17:32after the recording is done.
1:17:33And it's just there and you can have it on in the background.
1:17:36Like that is the comparison.
1:17:38Like Clubhouse is to Twitch that podcasts are to YouTube.
1:17:41And so that's what's going on.
1:17:43It's like, it's the same medium, it's audio,
1:17:46but they're different.
1:17:47Like the only things that are similar
1:17:49is that it's people talking.
1:17:50It's like conversations aren't disrupting podcasting.
1:17:55And so I just don't understand why we have to have these,
1:18:01oh, this is the discourse that like Clubhouse
1:18:03is now shaking the ground of podcasting.
1:18:06It's not gonna happen, right?
1:18:08But Clubhouse can be its own thing,
1:18:10which is very successful.
1:18:12And I hope that it does for people, like it's a new medium.
1:18:17I don't feel any draw to it myself
1:18:19either as a creator or consumer.
1:18:22I have an account, I've checked it a few times.
1:18:24I've listened to 10 minutes of one Clubhouse.
1:18:27I don't think it's for me.
1:18:29I think as a creator, I don't have anything
1:18:33I feel like I could bring to Clubhouse
1:18:36that I wouldn't just have as part of one of my many shows.
1:18:40Like why would I do a thing on Clubhouse?
1:18:43That is content, which I would produce
1:18:48in the medium for podcasting.
1:18:49But I'm keeping my mind open.
1:18:52Like I always think back to Instagram and Instagram stories.
1:18:54I didn't use them for a while.
1:18:56I had accounts, but I didn't really use them.
1:18:58But then I did 'cause then it like
1:19:00found a place in my life for it.
1:19:02So I'm not like saying for me,
1:19:04oh, I'm never gonna use Clubhouse nor do I care about it.
1:19:06It's kind of just right now,
1:19:08I don't know what I would want it for.
1:19:10But that doesn't mean it's not good.
1:19:11I just don't think it's for me right now.
1:19:14But the main thing I wanted to get across is
1:19:16I don't understand why people have to say
1:19:21that this is now coming off the podcasting
1:19:24'cause I just don't see the line there.
1:19:26- Yeah, I would say only in the broadest sense,
1:19:29which is people have a limited amount of time in general
1:19:32and a limited time to listen to audio in particular.
1:19:36And that is everything competes with everything else
1:19:39in the broad way and in the narrow way.
1:19:42If you have X amount of audio time,
1:19:45then listening to music, listening to podcasts,
1:19:47listening to Clubhouse, listening to the radio,
1:19:52listening to audio books, that's all in that bucket
1:19:54and you can't do all of them.
1:19:56And then more broadly,
1:19:57there's only so many hours in the day.
1:19:59In a more specific way, I agree with you.
1:20:02It feels like a very different medium.
1:20:04It's social conversation.
1:20:06There's a broadcast aspect to it.
1:20:08I think in the end,
1:20:10one of the things that I'm most skeptical of
1:20:13is these live talk shows on Clubhouse
1:20:15because that to me sounds like early days of television
1:20:19putting a stage show on television, right?
1:20:21Where it's like, that's not what this medium is.
1:20:23This is a social medium where people can talk
1:20:27and have conversations and somebody's in there
1:20:29trying to turn it into essentially a call-in show
1:20:32from the radio or a live podcast stream like the one we do.
1:20:36And is that Clubhouse to have an audience
1:20:39on an exclusive service
1:20:41that you have to give them your information
1:20:43and set up an account and then you can go in
1:20:44and you can listen to a bunch of other people talking live?
1:20:48Like, is that disruptive in any way?
1:20:49I would say no.
1:20:52I would say that there's probably something
1:20:53really interesting about making this an easy to use way
1:20:56to listen to live audio because we know that's hard.
1:20:59Like we do a live stream for this podcast,
1:21:01but a fraction, a tiny fraction of our listeners listen live
1:21:06and we love them.
1:21:07- Yeah, and nor would we wanna bring this to Clubhouse
1:21:09because then we're not using Clubhouse
1:21:11for what Clubhouse is for,
1:21:13which is having conversations and bringing people in.
1:21:16- And didn't have, if we did this podcast on Clubhouse
1:21:18and didn't have other people talking about it,
1:21:20if we didn't turn it into a phone-in show,
1:21:22then it's not Clubhouse, right?
1:21:23It's just a podcast stuck on Clubhouse,
1:21:25which I would think is bad, right?
1:21:28Like, I don't think that's using what it's,
1:21:30that would be us trying to change it
1:21:32into something that it's not.
1:21:33What it is, is it viable or not?
1:21:37It's hard to tell, honestly.
1:21:39It's kinda hard for me to see right now through the haze
1:21:44that is the stink that is caused
1:21:46by the worst in tech industry bro culture,
1:21:49which is coming off of Clubhouse in waves.
1:21:53Like it feels very much like we've disrupted,
1:21:56Silicon Valley's disrupted the world with Clubhouse
1:21:58and then you look at it and you're like,
1:22:00oh, it's talk radio.
1:22:01I see, or, oh, it's Discord.
1:22:03It's literally Discord,
1:22:07except this company owns it and owns your information
1:22:10instead of you signing up for Discord.
1:22:13So I have a great deal of skepticism
1:22:15for how Clubhouse has emerged,
1:22:18because I feel like to some degree,
1:22:20it is tech industry hype,
1:22:24and what's the reality of it?
1:22:27And if there's something there, what is it?
1:22:30And it strikes me that as a place,
1:22:34a social graph for live conversations,
1:22:37it seems interesting to me.
1:22:39As a, like Lex said, a party, right?
1:22:44A party is not a play.
1:22:48And Clubhouse is not a podcast.
1:22:50It's different and they serve different purposes.
1:22:53And I don't think plays are gonna kill parties
1:22:56and I don't think parties are gonna kill plays.
1:22:59You use them for different things.
1:23:01If a play and a party are going on at the same time,
1:23:05you have to choose which one you wanna go to.
1:23:06That's always gonna be the case.
1:23:07You only have a limited amount of time.
1:23:10But looking at Clubhouse,
1:23:13setting my skepticism aside,
1:23:17I feel like the whole thing that it enables
1:23:20is for people to be part of a conversation.
1:23:25And that's a very different thing
1:23:26than what we do on a podcast.
1:23:31- But again, it's a very valid thing of its own.
1:23:35And it seems like it's really gaining traction
1:23:37in a lot of communities.
1:23:38Now, it was in this weird beta,
1:23:41I mean, at the moment, right?
1:23:43But I'll get back to it in a second.
1:23:45The beta is all very VCE.
1:23:47But it seems like,
1:23:48I log in and I look at what's happening.
1:23:50And it seems like there's lots of different types
1:23:52of communities that are using Clubhouse now.
1:23:55But for me right now, it feels like a fad.
1:23:58Now, all things that are new, feel like fads,
1:24:02and then they catch on.
1:24:03And this one may catch on.
1:24:05But right now, it still feels fad-like to me.
1:24:08I'm happy for it to continue.
1:24:13I don't need to be right or wrong.
1:24:15I'm not saying it is a fad.
1:24:16I just get that feeling from it.
1:24:18It's very buzzy right now.
1:24:20But I'm not sure this attaches in the long term,
1:24:25like something like a Instagram.
1:24:29I'm just not sure about this as a long-term medium
1:24:34that people will keep wanting to consume.
1:24:43And continue to want to create.
1:24:48- My skepticism is also because I have,
1:24:50at least not yet witnessed what the secret sauce is,
1:24:54hi Myke, that makes Clubhouse more powerful
1:24:58than literally every other tool that exists
1:25:01that does voice conversations.
1:25:03Is it the social layer?
1:25:05Because you've been able to open up chat rooms
1:25:08and even audio chat rooms for a very long time.
1:25:12So is it just that they've made it easier
1:25:14to connect people socially? - It's easy.
1:25:15It's really easy. - And easier to jump in?
1:25:18Yeah, but is that enough that it becomes the only one?
1:25:21'Cause there's the feature argument too,
1:25:23which is if all they're doing
1:25:26is putting a nicer interface on that,
1:25:28then literally every other social media will copy it.
1:25:32And that's gonna be hard for them.
1:25:35But I also will say, are we transforming
1:25:40into a world where, boy, in the 2020s,
1:25:41what people are really gonna be doing
1:25:42is jumping in audio chat rooms and waiting their turn
1:25:46to have conversations with other people?
1:25:49Maybe, but that's been available on the internet
1:25:54for a while now and people do use it.
1:25:58Is this different enough that this is the thing
1:26:00that makes it catch fire?
1:26:01Maybe it is, I don't know.
1:26:02As you said, it doesn't intersect with my interests either.
1:26:10I'm on the record, I actually found it when Larry King died,
1:26:14I found this article that I wrote
1:26:16about Larry King's show on CNN 20 years ago
1:26:19that basically was me explaining, I hate call-in shows.
1:26:23I hate them, I hate them.
1:26:25As a viewer, as a listener, I hate them.
1:26:27I don't really wanna hear the random people on the phone.
1:26:31I tune into an interview show to hear the interview
1:26:34and then they're like, "Let's take some calls,"
1:26:35and I tune out.
1:26:38I'm not interested in the calls.
1:26:39I'm just not, sorry, not.
1:26:42So, and that other people are and that's fine,
1:26:45but it's got a whiff of the call-in show on here.
1:26:48It doesn't really work for me.
1:26:49But as a social medium where people get to step up
1:26:51to the mic and talk and if that is content that is good
1:26:55and that people really like being a part of it
1:26:57when they're listening and also when they're talking,
1:26:59then there might be something here.
1:27:00I do wonder if it's the social media glue
1:27:04and the easy interface that's the thing
1:27:06that this isn't just gonna get knocked off
1:27:08like literally everywhere
1:27:09and there won't be anything left on Clubhouse.
1:27:11But I'm open to it.
1:27:13I never wanna be somebody who looks at something new
1:27:17that comes along and say, "Oh, well, that's dumb."
1:27:20But Clubhouse is something that I look at
1:27:21with a great deal of skepticism
1:27:23because I'm not entirely convinced that this is something
1:27:25that a lot of people want,
1:27:27that they can do in a sort of a unique way.
1:27:29And in terms of the original question,
1:27:30which is about the evolution of podcasting,
1:27:32I come back to that same thing,
1:27:34which is if they can solve things that make it hard
1:27:39for people to listen to podcasts that stream live
1:27:43and give feedback,
1:27:44if they can make it easier for podcasts
1:27:45to bring on listeners to ask questions live
1:27:49and stuff like that and then archive it.
1:27:51So because most people don't wanna listen live,
1:27:53they wanna listen later,
1:27:55live is a very narrow thing and then it's gone.
1:27:58Like if they can solve a bunch of those problems,
1:28:00could it become like a way better way to do live podcasting
1:28:04than currently exists?
1:28:06Yeah, sure, there's a lot of possibility there, but--
1:28:09- There's a lot of people that have--
1:28:10- I got a lot of skepticism. - Clubhouses
1:28:11are gonna turn their Clubhouses into podcasts.
1:28:14And because that-- - Oh, for sure.
1:28:17- The medium, that's the method,
1:28:18is how you get a larger audience that way.
1:28:20- And that would be my argument about the people
1:28:23who are doing Clubhouse as a talk show
1:28:25ultimately doing it wrong,
1:28:29because that sounds like they're basically importing
1:28:31something from another medium into this
1:28:34and then potentially in order to monetize it,
1:28:37exporting it back out to where it should have been.
1:28:40And that's not great.
1:28:43- Brandon asks, "Do you think Apple ever ramp up
1:28:49"the tactility of macOS with the Tactic Engine
1:28:52"like they have on the iPhone?
1:28:54"All of the little bits of contextual feedback
1:28:56"are one of my favorite details of the iPhone,
1:28:58"and I can't help but hope it arrives
1:29:00"as part of future M-series hardware refreshes."
1:29:04- I don't think this will happen
1:29:05because I think Apple already tried this on the trackpad,
1:29:10and nobody really uses it, and it's not very good.
1:29:13And I think part of it is that it's indirect input
1:29:16instead of direct input.
1:29:17And although they did the thing where you're dragging
1:29:20over something and you get a little buzz on the trackpad,
1:29:23it's not the same as when you're using your hands
1:29:27on the screen.
1:29:29There's something about the indirectness of it
1:29:31that I think doesn't really translate.
1:29:33- It's like a hand-eye coordination thing, maybe.
1:29:35- Yeah, I feel like it's more likely
1:29:36that they're just gonna remove a bunch of the vibration stuff
1:29:40from the trackpad and leave it.
1:29:42I mean, it does have the fake click.
1:29:44The fake click is a vibration, so there is that in there.
1:29:47But I don't do the fake audio click,
1:29:49but the buzz when you click is--
1:29:51- Well, I turned off the fake audio click
1:29:53after "Lost Week's Show."
1:29:54- But it still does a little quick vibration.
1:29:56- Yeah, I love that.
1:29:57That is the click because it's not actually clicking.
1:30:00- Yeah, I hadn't thought of that until you said that
1:30:01'cause my initial thought was like,
1:30:02yeah, I mean, I really love the Taptic stuff too.
1:30:05I would love to have more of that in the Mac.
1:30:06But you're right, I think what makes it nice
1:30:09is that it feels like I'm seeing a thing happening
1:30:12under my finger, like that's how it feels.
1:30:15Like I'm moving the switch.
1:30:16I can see my finger move the switch
1:30:18and my finger feels the switch moving.
1:30:20I don't feel as connected to the pointer on my screen.
1:30:24- No. - It's interesting.
1:30:25Maybe it's just to just look like a fake finger, right?
1:30:27That's what we all want.
1:30:28No, don't do that.
1:30:29Interesting.
1:30:31- Yeah, so I'm skeptical that that will happen
1:30:34because of that, because it's indirect
1:30:36and I don't think the effect works that well.
1:30:38And although I like the Taptic Engine stuff
1:30:40on the iPhone a lot, I'm not sure.
1:30:43I mean, 'cause I've tried it.
1:30:44I've tried it with like Logic and GarageBand
1:30:46and stuff on the Mac and it just doesn't work for me.
1:30:47It just doesn't.
1:30:48Maybe it could be implemented then better,
1:30:50but my feeling is like they built that in already
1:30:53to the Magic Trackpad and it doesn't, nobody cares.
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1:31:22If you'd like to check it out,
1:31:23find out more, go to getupgradeplus.com.
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1:31:32If you'd like to find links and stuff like that,
1:31:34they should be in your podcast app of choice,
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1:31:42If you'd like to find Jason online,
1:31:43you can go to sixcolors.com
1:31:45and he is @jsnell, J-S-N-E-L-L
1:31:47and I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E.
1:31:51Thank you so much for listening
1:31:52to this week's episode of Upgrade
1:31:53and we'll be back next time.
1:31:54Until then, say goodbye Jason Snell.
1:31:57- Goodbye, Myke Hurley.
1:31:58(upbeat music)
1:32:01[ Music ]