00:00:08 ◼ ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade episode 339, and today's show is brought to you by ExpressVPN,
00:00:15 ◼ ► HelloFresh, and Spokes. My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Jason Snow. Hello, Jason Snow.
00:00:37 ◼ ► Ah, tea questions. They're almost as bad as weather questions. I like black tea. I like just
00:00:44 ◼ ► pure black tea. My morning tea rotation is I have an Irish breakfast, an English breakfast, and I
00:00:54 ◼ ► have an Assam full leaf, but they're all just black tea. I like black tea with a little, uh,
00:01:07 ◼ ► I put honey in my tea. That's my, that's my, my go-to is honey in my tea. My wife puts milk in
00:01:13 ◼ ► her tea. Occasionally, she will be very nice and bring me tea. And it's always funny because I seem
00:01:20 ◼ ► to know innately how many squeezes of the honey bear it takes to pop properly honey in my tea.
00:01:26 ◼ ► And she's gotten it in her head because she doesn't use honey that I am a honey maniac who
00:01:32 ◼ ► puts way too much honey in his tea. And so whenever she brings me the tea, it is like honey with tea in
00:01:38 ◼ ► it. It's very kind of her, but it's also hilarious. Oh, interesting. That wasn't what I was expecting
00:01:43 ◼ ► you were going to say. I think initially she put it a little and I was like, oh, I need to put more
00:02:06 ◼ ► and they, they, it's actually easier to clean cause they're, they're bigger. They're not
00:02:10 ◼ ► little chunks. Um, they, they, I think they, they chop them up into little bits for it to, um, so
00:02:16 ◼ ► that it's stronger that it, it works faster, but I use the tea robot. So it's the same amount of time.
00:02:25 ◼ ► and order pounds and pounds of it and just use that. Um, I'm I just, I vary it a little,
00:02:31 ◼ ► but it's so slight that I think if you made three cups of the three different kinds and put them in
00:02:40 ◼ ► snow talk question to help us open a show, uh, just send in a tweet with the hashtag snow talk,
00:02:45 ◼ ► or use question marks, no talking the relay FM members discord some follow up because I
00:02:49 ◼ ► just wanted to follow up on it. Zoom work well last week. So we're using it today. It's the way
00:02:55 ◼ ► we're going to record going forward. I'm going to start slowly transitioning all of my other shows
00:03:01 ◼ ► to zoom, but I'm waiting for like, I'm waiting to feel comfortable with the changed workflow,
00:03:11 ◼ ► Well, this is how I feel, uh, as, as the host, you want to like have it down so that when you
00:03:16 ◼ ► introduce it to your other shows, it's as painless as possible because you've got it down and like in
00:03:21 ◼ ► my editing process and all that kind of stuff. Uh, and just kind of getting that all nice and set,
00:03:27 ◼ ► but I'm back in my office now last week, I was not, I was an undisclosed location. So it wasn't
00:03:34 ◼ ► the zoom that made it sound different. Even though it was all my same hardware, it was in a totally
00:03:39 ◼ ► different room. It was room, not zoom, but now I'm back in my own office. So this is going to be
00:03:51 ◼ ► a pretty upstream focused episode today. So I have some upstream headlines then we're going to talk
00:03:59 ◼ ► about for all mankind because there's some interesting stuff going on there as it debuts
00:04:02 ◼ ► later on this week. And then, uh, we're going to talk about the fracas that you started around, uh,
00:04:09 ◼ ► Apple TV, uh, last week. Yeah. A fracas, fracas, as we might say in America, you got a fracas,
00:04:16 ◼ ► real fracas going on over there. I don't know if it's fracas here in the UK, but I, I, I, I don't
00:04:22 ◼ ► like the way that sounds. So I say fracas instead. Maybe that makes me foolish. It's a hubbub. It's
00:04:27 ◼ ► a hubbub. Uh, uh, yeah. One of those kerfuffle. Apple TV plus has secured four Golden Globe
00:04:35 ◼ ► nominations this year. I think they had a couple last year, but they got four this time. Uh, Ted
00:04:41 ◼ ► Lasso for best TV series, musical comedy, Jason Sudeikis for best performance, Wolfwalkers for
00:04:47 ◼ ► best animated film and Bill Murray for best supporting actor in on the rocks, which I haven't
00:04:52 ◼ ► seen yet, but I do want to say, uh, do you think you're going to win any of these? Well,
00:05:07 ◼ ► Globes do wacky pics. They do things that are new. They like to be seen embracing the new.
00:05:13 ◼ ► Right. And that's why I think that, um, I, the, what I've read is that the critic's consensus is
00:05:20 ◼ ► that Wolfwalkers is probably the best animated film of the year. So it may, it may win not for
00:05:27 ◼ ► wacky reasons, but for good reasons. And we, I think it's a real contender for the Oscar. Now,
00:05:32 ◼ ► Apple doesn't get the statue, right? It's the makers of the producer of the film would get the
00:05:36 ◼ ► statue, but it would still be a feather in Apple's cap. Well, even more so Apple's not even listed
00:05:41 ◼ ► because, uh, it was entered into, I think, consideration before Apple picked it up. Yeah,
00:05:46 ◼ ► right. Exactly. Apple's basically just distributed it. They did a distribution deal because of COVID
00:05:51 ◼ ► and all of that. However, the Ted Lasso picks, I would think that there's a real possibility that
00:05:56 ◼ ► one of those Ted Lasso, uh, nominations is going to be a win because of how wacky the Golden Globes
00:06:01 ◼ ► is and how they want to do stuff that's new and not well known and Ted Lasso, they often will pick
00:06:06 ◼ ► things that are kind of more like cult breaking out. People are starting to talk about it. And I
00:06:11 ◼ ► think the Golden Globes voters want to look cool and in the know. And so if they say, you know,
00:06:18 ◼ ► Oh yes, everybody else thinks that these shows are the best comedy, but we know it's Ted Lasso.
00:06:22 ◼ ► Then they look cool. So it wouldn't shock me if Ted Lasso or especially like Jason Sudeikis
00:06:28 ◼ ► might get something there, but we'll, we'll see. I think there's a chance though. I think there's
00:06:37 ◼ ► but they tend to be much more kind of on inertia. And when you win Emmys, like a lot of small shows
00:06:43 ◼ ► that are cult followings that are really great, but aren't widely known tend to get their Emmy
00:06:48 ◼ ► nominations and wins. Like the last thing about Schitt's Creek, it was the last season that got
00:06:54 ◼ ► the nominations. Schitt's Creek is the issue, I think for the Golden Globes too. I just looked
00:06:58 ◼ ► it up. They've never even been nominated for a Golden Globe before. And so like Schitt's Creek
00:07:04 ◼ ► cleaned up at the Emmys because the show was over. Right. So, and it was, and it is incredible.
00:07:09 ◼ ► So they were kind of like, we're just gonna give it all the awards and they're nominated again in
00:07:13 ◼ ► every category. So I think Schitt's Creek really is like probably the biggest contender here.
00:07:20 ◼ ► It's going to be a challenge. I read a story that handicapped the Golden Globes and said that they
00:07:23 ◼ ► thought that Jason Sudeikis or Ted Lasso really did have a chance because there's, there's two
00:07:27 ◼ ► ways to go with the Golden Globes, which is the obvious choice, which is Schitt's Creek. And
00:07:31 ◼ ► there's the, oh, it's the Golden Globes. They're going to do something wacky and that was, and
00:07:35 ◼ ► that's Ted Lasso. So it's, it's possible. But, um, my point about the Emmys is more that if you
00:07:42 ◼ ► really love Ted Lasso and it continues to be great for the next three seasons, then stay tuned for
00:07:47 ◼ ► season three, when they will finally get an Emmy nomination as the, as they finish up and are on
00:07:52 ◼ ► their way out the door. Cause that seems to be how it works for a lot of the, the Emmy stuff.
00:07:56 ◼ ► Disney+ has now hit 95 million paid subscribers. They're up 8 million more in a month when they,
00:08:04 ◼ ► they, they just reported this, uh, cause they, they, we knew the number from their courtly
00:08:09 ◼ ► earnings and now they've hit 95. So they've just told everyone they've done it. Um, because why not?
00:08:14 ◼ ► And this made me want to ask, cause I think one of the, potentially one of the drivers is
00:08:23 ◼ ► okay. Well, you might not have, I don't know. Um, no. In fact, it is, um, I've been really
00:08:34 ◼ ► for a while now about we knew Disney+ was coming. They said it was coming and then it arrived and
00:08:39 ◼ ► we're like, okay. But after the Mandalorian finished, like there's content, but it's the
00:08:44 ◼ ► library and like, what is their original content thing? And again, you can do a service with,
00:08:48 ◼ ► with a library like Disney's, you can do a service like that. But one of the ways you motivate people
00:08:52 ◼ ► to sign up is original content rolling out. And so maybe WandaVision and the buzz around WandaVision
00:08:58 ◼ ► has been part of it. This is the, for those who don't know, it's a Marvel show. It's the first
00:09:02 ◼ ► show, uh, set essentially officially done by Marvel studios. The other TV shows that they've
00:09:08 ◼ ► done recently were by a different arm, a TV arm of Marvel that was not run by the people who made
00:09:14 ◼ ► the movies and didn't really feature the people who were in the movies with a couple of footnotes.
00:09:19 ◼ ► Um, and now it's sort of like characters from the movies that you recognize and WandaVision is the
00:09:23 ◼ ► first one it's got Scarlet Witch and Vision and some other characters from Marvel universe in it.
00:09:29 ◼ ► And the reason I was thinking about this is, uh, Mandalorian became, it's actually our only,
00:09:36 ◼ ► with our 16 year old son, our family appointment television. Like on Friday night, we all sit down
00:09:45 ◼ ► together and watched, you know, we watched the Mandalorian and we transferred that right over
00:09:51 ◼ ► into WandaVision. We sit down on Friday night as a family and we watch WandaVision together.
00:09:56 ◼ ► And, you know, we watch like movies. We'll be like, Oh, Julian, we're going to do this movie
00:10:00 ◼ ► and, you know, come and watch it and all that. We do that. And he'll choose, he can choose,
00:10:07 ◼ ► one of the things that we will reliably watch with him is, um, is Marvel movies, old and new.
00:10:13 ◼ ► He's got the stuff he's interested in the stuff he's not, and that's fine. And we've got the stuff
00:10:17 ◼ ► we're interested in. He's not, and that's fine. So what strikes me about WandaVision is following
00:10:23 ◼ ► Mandalorian, I'm like, we've had a pretty good run here with, there've been a little bit of a gap,
00:10:26 ◼ ► but not much where you just sort of have this appointment viewing of there's always a new,
00:10:35 ◼ ► which is you want to have a situation where you always have to be subscribed to Disney plus,
00:10:40 ◼ ► and you feel you're getting your money's worth because there's always appointment viewing of a
00:10:44 ◼ ► new original plus your access to the catalog. And I was thinking about this cause WandaVision's
00:10:50 ◼ ► only got three episodes left. So three more weeks of WandaVision before it's done. And I was like,
00:10:56 ◼ ► oh, but this has been so nice. And then I thought, yeah, but Falcon and the Winter Soldier starts in
00:11:02 ◼ ► March. I believe it is the next week. It might be a week after, but it's, it's right there.
00:11:14 ◼ ► but that is the idea for all of these streaming services, especially the ones with franchises.
00:11:24 ◼ ► there's this Marvel show and there's also this Marvel show that's coming, um, this summer. And
00:11:28 ◼ ► there's this Marvel show and this other Marvel show that are coming this fall. And there's also
00:11:32 ◼ ► the book of Boba Fett that's coming in December. And, you know, I think the idea is that you will
00:11:41 ◼ ► not be able to get away from Disney plus for even a month as new Marvel and star Wars and other
00:11:47 ◼ ► originals come out. And we're loving it. And it immediately makes me think, you know, Disney plus
00:11:56 ◼ ► is a destination and I'll just say it as a lifelong star Trek fan, that is absolutely what CBS all
00:12:02 ◼ ► access, which is about to turn into paramount. Plus, like we said last week, that's what they're
00:12:06 ◼ ► doing with star Trek is the same thing is they want to have, and they haven't been able to do
00:12:19 ◼ ► there should be a star Trek show rolling out on paramount plus. And that if you are, if you want
00:12:24 ◼ ► that stream of entertainment, easy, just sign up for paramount plus and you get it. And this is
00:12:28 ◼ ► part, it's not the whole strategy. It's not a star Trek streaming service. This is not a Marvel
00:12:33 ◼ ► streaming service, but it helps one set of audience members, uh, be welded to your service. So I I'm,
00:12:42 ◼ ► and I'm excited about that too, because it means that we'll have Friday, uh, TV night with my son,
00:12:46 ◼ ► um, for a while now because of Disney plus. So, um, so yeah, I'm loving Wanda vision, um,
00:12:52 ◼ ► for people who haven't tried it yet, it is. Uh, have you watched it, Myke? Yeah, I'm up to date.
00:12:57 ◼ ► Okay. Um, again, we're not going to spoil anything, but I'll speak broadly about it and say,
00:13:01 ◼ ► what's interesting about Wanda vision is that because it's not a movie, they're using the
00:13:09 ◼ ► episode by episode week by week format to tell an ongoing story, but also have the individual
00:13:16 ◼ ► episodes feel unique. Yeah. I've never seen a TV show like this one. It's it's peculiar,
00:13:30 ◼ ► that the first couple episodes you're like, what am I watching? You know, it's really good. They
00:13:35 ◼ ► did the whole, like, here's three and then we'll go every week. I think it was two, they dropped
00:13:40 ◼ ► two and it's the very end of the second episode where it sort of like pulls back the curtain a
00:13:46 ◼ ► little and says, this is actually the show you're watching. Yeah. Um, and, and that's why they dropped
00:13:51 ◼ ► those two episodes. I think is that if people had just seen episode one, they'd be like, I is,
00:13:55 ◼ ► is it a sitcom now? Because that's basically the premise of it, but, uh, I think it's really
00:14:00 ◼ ► brilliant. Uh, I've loved it. And if this is, and this was not originally their launch show,
00:14:05 ◼ ► Falcon and winter soldier was going to be their launch show, but because of the pandemic,
00:14:08 ◼ ► they weren't done shooting it and they had to go back and remount the filming to get it done. Um,
00:14:14 ◼ ► whereas this one was apparently close enough that they were able to get it ready to go and get it
00:14:19 ◼ ► out the door. Um, it's, it's probably weirder and less conventional than they wanted to launch
00:14:30 ◼ ► winter soldier is very like this. Yeah. This is a Marvel movie kind of. Yeah. They did a trailer
00:14:34 ◼ ► for it and we got to the end and Lauren said to me, wait, that's not a movie. It's a TV show.
00:14:41 ◼ ► Cause it might as well be a movie. One division looks like, I mean, it, it, it, the look of it
00:14:52 ◼ ► something to the effect of you need to stop talking about movie effects and TV effects.
00:15:00 ◼ ► Because I realized the budgets may be different. I don't know any of the behind the scenes
00:15:05 ◼ ► business, but I'll tell you what is on screen. It's a Marvel movie, right? Like it doesn't feel
00:15:10 ◼ ► like they cheaped out and it's a really bad effect like that you wouldn't see in a movie.
00:15:25 ◼ ► And that is, and not necessarily from storytelling. Like I said, I think the individual
00:15:30 ◼ ► episodes do, uh, have their own feel and the weekly release lets you talk about like, what
00:15:36 ◼ ► did we just see in a way that's very effective, but it, it, uh, Falcon and winter soldier feels
00:15:43 ◼ ► much more, uh, conventional in the sense that it does feel kind of like it's a Marvel movie
00:15:48 ◼ ► chopped up into, I don't know what it is, six episodes, I think six pieces. Um, but, uh, I,
00:15:53 ◼ ► I think, I think it's good. And I think it's a good sign that the Marvel studios people are really
00:15:58 ◼ ► are bringing their a game. Clearly we know from the message from the top at Disney from Disney's,
00:16:02 ◼ ► uh, previous CEO and their current CEO that, uh, Disney pluses is basically a huge part of
00:16:09 ◼ ► Disney's future and that theatrical will continue as well, but that they are considering Disney plus,
00:16:14 ◼ ► uh, in some ways their primary output medium output source. So, well, it's all going there
00:16:23 ◼ ► eventually. So it's important, right? Exactly. So of course, Marvel studios has gotten the message,
00:16:27 ◼ ► which is do not make, you know, second rate stuff, make your, bring your a game to this.
00:16:34 ◼ ► And they seem to be, so I've been enjoying it. Uh, HBO max is going to be launching in some
00:16:45 ◼ ► it seems pretty localized the June launch to, I believe it's, uh, Latin America, uh, mostly,
00:16:52 ◼ ► and then it's going to be some of the Nordic countries, some of Europe, um, later on in the
00:16:56 ◼ ► year, the UK is not on this list at all, uh, which I'm not surprised about. I think we spoke
00:17:02 ◼ ► about it before. Um, I hate the HBO and sky deal is pretty linked, but as I said previously, okay,
00:17:11 ◼ ► but what about the original content? Right. That's the issue because currently like we can get all of
00:17:30 ◼ ► subscribe to the entertainment package and we can watch shows and all that kind of stuff,
00:17:33 ◼ ► but none of HBO max original content is available there. So HBO work it out, right? Like, yeah,
00:17:41 ◼ ► it sounds like they're, they're actually selling. This is a sign that it's not coming anytime soon,
00:17:47 ◼ ► right? Is that they are selling their originals to places like sky in the UK. So like, uh,
00:17:54 ◼ ► the original content, the HBO max pure content is not available. The flight attendant, which is,
00:17:59 ◼ ► uh, an HBO max original. I'm looking at a story now. I just picked it as an idea. They,
00:18:10 ◼ ► so it seems like they're basically at this point selling content into markets that they're not
00:18:16 ◼ ► going to go in yet. That's just seems like they do on it on like a pick and choose, right? Like
00:18:22 ◼ ► it's so stupid. I agree. I agree. Probably. Yeah. Yeah. I feel your pain. All right. This
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00:20:13 ◼ ► All right, so let's talk about For All Mankind because Apple has wrapped the promotional machine
00:20:19 ◼ ► up to 22 on this one. The second season for all mankind of For All Mankind debuts to the moon.
00:20:26 ◼ ► Diamond Hands, it debuts this week on Friday, I think. Now, they're going back to weekly release.
00:20:35 ◼ ► Do you know, is it going to be one at a time or are they going to dump a couple and then go?
00:21:01 ◼ ► what we were just talking about, WandaVision, I want a couple so I can get into it again, you know,
00:21:10 ◼ ► We actually wait until there was four of them and then we watched them and then caught up.
00:21:13 ◼ ► Or three or four of them and caught up. And I could wait, but I can't wait because I've been
00:21:17 ◼ ► really excited for this show to return because of what they did going from season one to season two
00:21:30 ◼ ► But today Apple announced that they are going to be doing a weekly pod... Okay, a watch along
00:21:39 ◼ ► Of For All Mankind. Now this is something that we kind of expected was coming. There's been lots of
00:21:45 ◼ ► reports about them moving into this. And this was one of the things that I think Bloomberg reported
00:21:50 ◼ ► that Apple would do because it seems like the obvious kind of first step for them, which is
00:21:56 ◼ ► take the content that they're already making on TV plus and make companion podcasts. And this has
00:22:02 ◼ ► been done to some good effect. I know that you've spoken very highly about both The Good Place and
00:22:10 ◼ ► And it's going to be hosted by Chris Marshall who plays Danielle Poole on the show. So I like that.
00:22:16 ◼ ► It's hosted by somebody on the show. And the good thing about these types of podcasts is
00:22:21 ◼ ► where you can actually get the people on. So I was talking about The West Wing, that I've been
00:22:25 ◼ ► watching The West Wing. And people were recommending to me The West Wing Weekly. But I didn't want to
00:22:30 ◼ ► listen because we were binging The West Wing. So it wasn't really possible for me to watch.
00:22:39 ◼ ► And what's so great about that, which I didn't know initially, is it's hosted by one of the
00:22:42 ◼ ► people that's in the show. So they just get whoever they want on. And these shows are...
00:22:48 ◼ ► No disrespect to my many friends, including you, who make watch along shows. It is really great
00:22:55 ◼ ► when you can have the people involved in the thing, right? No disrespect taken because once you've got
00:23:00 ◼ ► the people involved and it's the official podcast, you also can't criticize it. So it works both ways.
00:23:05 ◼ ► Exactly. You do lose something. Yep. But you gain something. And I've enjoyed some of the official
00:23:10 ◼ ► podcasts. Again, I don't... I listen to official podcasts for interesting behind the scenes
00:23:18 ◼ ► discussion of how the art was made. And I listen to discussions, unofficial discussions about
00:23:31 ◼ ► And like wish-casting and all that kind of stuff, right? Like they are... You're right.
00:23:39 ◼ ► Exactly. And one of them is tightly integrated and it's got all the stuff. And again, you don't get
00:23:46 ◼ ► that access otherwise, right? Like you're not going to get one of the actors from For All Mankind
00:23:51 ◼ ► to talk about every episode and what they didn't like about it. This is not going to happen.
00:23:58 ◼ ► Your co-star did a bad job that day. Did he not get sleep the night before? What's going on there?
00:24:04 ◼ ► But this is wild to me. So the first episode comes out with the first episode of the show.
00:24:22 ◼ ► can't decide whether it's just that it's cheaper or what, but it does seem unfortunate, right? Like
00:24:38 ◼ ► you're releasing weekly. And that didn't happen. It's kind of one of those things. No disrespect
00:24:43 ◼ ► to the people involved. If I do it right or don't do it. The Watchmen podcast was great,
00:24:47 ◼ ► but it was frustrating that they'd be like, "Well, now we're going to talk about this week's episode
00:24:51 ◼ ► and also last week's episode." Yeah. Like, "But why didn't you?" Yeah, it's strange, but I'm looking
00:24:58 ◼ ► forward to listening because I'm curious. Honestly, I'm just curious about what the Apple take. And
00:25:02 ◼ ► they're working with a company that produces, an outside company that produces podcasts to do this.
00:25:06 ◼ ► This is not being made by Apple's in-house, but it's being made for Apple for one of its shows.
00:25:13 ◼ ► So I'm interested in seeing how they take on the idea of the official podcast of a show that
00:25:20 ◼ ► they're rolling out. Is it available outside of Apple podcasts? It's unclear to me. I don't know.
00:25:27 ◼ ► Huh. We'll ask Marco. We'll see. I mean, I did a quick search on Overcast and nothing comes up,
00:25:32 ◼ ► but it did only appear today with the trailer. Yeah, right. Exactly. Huh. I wonder what they're
00:25:38 ◼ ► going to do there. I don't know. You'd think that they'd want to promote it regardless. Yeah,
00:25:41 ◼ ► because this is ostensibly marketing for... Yeah, my gut feeling is that it'll be available
00:25:48 ◼ ► elsewhere too, because they want everybody to see For All mankind. And what happens the next time,
00:25:54 ◼ ► right? Is there an official morning show podcast? What are they going to do for the rest of their
00:25:59 ◼ ► shows? Is this the new rollout plan or is this an experiment? I don't know. I think they should. I
00:26:03 ◼ ► think it's a good idea. Really. It's just like, it's an additional thing you can do. People that
00:26:07 ◼ ► really love the show can also continue to consume content along with the show. I'll be super into
00:26:14 ◼ ► this for a Ted Lasso. Oh man. Yeah. I would really like that, like a Ted Lasso podcast as well.
00:26:27 ◼ ► There was another thing though that they did for All Mankind, which was an AR game type experience
00:26:35 ◼ ► thing. So it's called For All Mankind Time Capsule. If you check this out all, I went through it all
00:26:40 ◼ ► today. I have not looked at it yet. Okay. It doesn't take very long. It's probably like a
00:26:44 ◼ ► half an hour type thing. But it's effectively a bunch of little vignettes that you tell us.
00:26:51 ◼ ► It's telling a story of some of the intervening time between season one and season two. And you
00:26:57 ◼ ► get to see, uh, like kind of part of the family life of the Stevens family. So Gordo and Tracy
00:27:05 ◼ ► Stevens, like it's, you see some of their family life a little bit, which is super interesting
00:27:10 ◼ ► because of the way their stories go towards the end of season one. Um, TJ has found, uh,
00:27:17 ◼ ► Yeah. There's a, there's a RSS URL and I just added it to my overcast and it worked. So there
00:27:27 ◼ ► So I want to just touch on this real quickly because this is super interesting to me. Yeah.
00:27:31 ◼ ► Um, so pause on the For All Mankind, uh, AR game. The RSS feed or the website is, is with art 19.
00:27:51 ◼ ► choose any specific company like this, which I think just shows that the production company
00:28:04 ◼ ► Cause I just can't work out why Apple would choose any, maybe that at will media, which is the name
00:28:11 ◼ ► of the company that is producing the show for, for Apple. Um, at will media works with art 19
00:28:23 ◼ ► great. You do it, go to town. We're not going to do this now. That's super interesting to me.
00:28:29 ◼ ► I'll have to talk to, I'll talk to Lex about it. I'll talk to our friend Lex. I didn't want to
00:28:32 ◼ ► mention it, but yeah. Okay. I wasn't going to, but you did. Yeah. Our friend Lex Friedman works on
00:28:37 ◼ ► 19 and, uh, interesting. Anyway. So the, the For All Mankind game, it's, it's as they call it,
00:28:45 ◼ ► a story was seen between seasons one and two, which it really is. And it's beautiful. Like
00:28:52 ◼ ► it is a really nice, really wonderful experience that they've created. If you enjoy the show,
00:28:59 ◼ ► download this and try it out. Like I was quite surprised by how moving I found it honestly.
00:29:06 ◼ ► And it's got voice acting, uh, from sad spy. I can't remember his name, Michael Dorman,
00:29:32 ◼ ► say though, is my iPhone got incredibly hot doing this. Like, cause you're in AR for the whole time.
00:29:37 ◼ ► So it's like half an hour of just AR and like the top left hand corner of my phone. I couldn't even
00:29:42 ◼ ► touch it. It got so hot. Uh, so that's where the process is. Get ready to wear that on your face.
00:29:48 ◼ ► Oh God. Catch your hand on fire. That's why there's a fan. Yeah. So there's gotta be a fan
00:29:53 ◼ ► in a, in a AR headset, right? Kind of my thinking, my point about both of these things, the podcast
00:29:58 ◼ ► and this AR game, they have gone all out here for, for All Mankind. Do you want to know how
00:30:05 ◼ ► all out they've gone? Like, would you like to know? I can exclusively reveal that there's a
00:30:18 ◼ ► Cause we got to talk to Ron Moore, the co-creator and executive producer for Liftoff about, for All
00:30:25 ◼ ► Mankind season two. So people check that out on relay FM. I'll put a link in the show notes to
00:30:31 ◼ ► Liftoff. Uh, that was pretty awesome. We did that last week and, uh, that was like, I was impressed
00:30:37 ◼ ► with that. They're like, for All Mankind's coming out, you got a space podcast. Let's do it. Like,
00:30:41 ◼ ► yeah, it was great. I am very excited. Uh, I knew this was coming and I cannot wait to listen to it.
00:30:47 ◼ ► So, uh, I, I, when I found out I knew how excited you would be, right? Cause it's like,
00:30:53 ◼ ► look at my world's coming together. I can't even tell you how excited I was to talk to him. And I
00:31:00 ◼ ► had to, I had to keep it together because I've literally watched all the shows that he's worked
00:31:06 ◼ ► on. Like I said at the beginning, before we got started, I'm like, love your work from Star Trek to
00:31:12 ◼ ► to, to Battlestar Galactica to Outlander. Um, and now to, for All Mankind. So that was, that was,
00:31:19 ◼ ► uh, when we were done with that interview, I realized that I had, I had, I had been stressing
00:31:24 ◼ ► out about it for like a week. I would have been terrified. So that's really conversation slash
00:31:30 ◼ ► liftoff. Go subscribe to the show now and you'll get that when it drops later on this week. I'm
00:31:36 ◼ ► very excited to hear it. Uh, I'm going to keep my eye on the CMS and just pull that one down as soon
00:31:41 ◼ ► as, just for me, as soon as you see it go up there. Um, so with this, of all of this, they are
00:31:48 ◼ ► going all out and this is not, not all of their shows are getting this attention, right? So,
00:31:55 ◼ ► Servant season two, Dickinson season two, they're both out. There's ads for them. I know that,
00:32:00 ◼ ► but this is like a whole next level. So I think what we're seeing here is Apple creating basically
00:32:11 ◼ ► their flagship shows are getting this type of promotion or Sony, the production company,
00:32:28 ◼ ► enhanced promotion for this show over some of their other programming, which may be tied in
00:32:34 ◼ ► with the originals too. Like there was a, uh, this show and the morning show, especially got a lot of
00:32:41 ◼ ► the initial press going into it. Um, do you think that we will see, I mean, this kind of heavy
00:32:47 ◼ ► promotion for say morning show and probably Ted Lasso as well? Like with all of this stuff, not
00:32:57 ◼ ► I'm unclear whether this is a test or whether this is the new kind of a tier promotion thing,
00:33:06 ◼ ► or whether they've got a, like a whole palette of promotional options. And for each show,
00:33:15 ◼ ► it'll be interesting to see the next premiere. What happens, what shows get the podcast,
00:33:21 ◼ ► what shows get the special AR content? Is there a track where there's like things to choose from,
00:33:28 ◼ ► or do they brainstorm specific things? And we're only going to see AR for this because they thought
00:33:33 ◼ ► it was the best fit for the content. I don't know, but, um, it is interesting to see them
00:33:40 ◼ ► doing this at a level that they weren't before for this. And I, you know, I think that's good.
00:33:47 ◼ ► I'm very excited for the show. I can't wait. Yeah, I've seen episode one and two and you know,
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00:34:46 ◼ ► potato and chicken pie, uh, with mushrooms. Oh my God. And really great sauce, like a cream sauce.
00:34:53 ◼ ► Oh my God. I loved it. Um, and that's what I love about HelloFresh because we get a few boxes
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00:35:26 ◼ ► And I really appreciate that. And over time we're building our knowledge and our skills of cooking,
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00:36:09 ◼ ► America's number one meal kit. Our thanks to HelloFresh for their support of this show and
00:36:25 ◼ ► And a bunch of tweets too. So you were building on a conversation that was on dithering between
00:36:34 ◼ ► John Gruber and Ben Thompson about the Apple TV and they were pondering what could be next
00:36:39 ◼ ► for the Apple TV, but you kind of took it from a different angle of like, should the Apple TV have
00:36:48 ◼ ► Yeah, well, and why, why does it exist? It was really, it was really like, why, why is it here?
00:36:54 ◼ ► The premise being that with it's, I would say it's two most important unique features gone,
00:37:02 ◼ ► not removed from the product, but not unique anymore, which is airplay support and the TV app
00:37:12 ◼ ► every TV show you ever bought, plus rentals, plus Apple TV plus roll all that in there.
00:37:20 ◼ ► Those are available on modern TVs and streamer boxes, including, you know, streamer boxes,
00:37:32 ◼ ► HDR for 35 bucks. So my point was we've got a thing that costs five times that and doesn't do
00:37:41 ◼ ► those features uniquely anymore. So what, what is in the, in the list of advantages, you know,
00:37:48 ◼ ► the list of assets for, uh, for the Apple TV and, and where do they go from here? Like,
00:37:57 ◼ ► what could they do to make it, um, you know, more popular as a product? What, what could they add?
00:38:09 ◼ ► let's come up with what it does, what it still does that is unique, and then also kind of ponder
00:38:15 ◼ ► what it could do to be, um, more successful than it is. Oh, I'll remind everybody that the, uh,
00:38:22 ◼ ► Apple TV got an F in the, in the report card on six colors as well. So yeah, for these reasons,
00:38:29 ◼ ► the reasons, your article, the things we're going to talk about, but the thing is like,
00:38:32 ◼ ► Apple's doing the right thing in making AirPlay and the TV app available in many places. This is
00:38:42 ◼ ► the right thing for the strategy. I think it makes sense, right? Like at this point, if you're buying
00:38:47 ◼ ► a new TV, it's actually pretty hard to not have some combination of these features. You're probably
00:38:53 ◼ ► going to get the Apple TV app no matter what you get. And then some TV sets also have AirPlay. Like
00:38:59 ◼ ► most major manufacturers have some kind of set, a set of these features now. But even if you don't,
00:39:04 ◼ ► I mean, you can get a fire TV stick for, for, you know, the few tens of dollars that those things
00:39:09 ◼ ► cost and you'll get the Apple TV app. Right. So very easy to get now. I want to say something
00:39:14 ◼ ► upfront here because I got a lot of feedback on Twitter about this. I'm not trying to take your
00:39:18 ◼ ► Apple TV away from you. I'm not saying you're a dummy for buying an Apple TV, especially not two
00:39:23 ◼ ► years ago. I'm not saying that you shouldn't use the Apple TV. I use the Apple TV every day,
00:39:32 ◼ ► other people should probably also, you know, buy it so that more people can buy it and more people
00:39:38 ◼ ► can use it and developers can focus more on it and all of those things, uh, for it to be more
00:39:42 ◼ ► successful, you want to have it have a viable audience and market. And right now it seems like
00:39:50 ◼ ► that's a tough one. So as of right now, the things that set the Apple TV box apart, uh,
00:40:00 ◼ ► point one Apple makes it. So if they're going to add features to the ecosystem, in theory,
00:40:06 ◼ ► if they could affect the TV, then you'll get them rolled in. Right. And you can see this with some
00:40:12 ◼ ► HomeKit stuff, for example, you know, like when they add HomeKit secure video, well, they added
00:40:17 ◼ ► the ability for you to see those cameras on your Apple TV. And if you were using the TV app, uh,
00:40:23 ◼ ► and on your Samsung TV or your OG TV, you're not going to get that. Right. So there's some benefit
00:40:29 ◼ ► there to being in the ecosystem. Um, it can play games from Apple arcade. If that's your jam,
00:40:35 ◼ ► it has support for HomePods. I don't want to get started. I was happy to see that you put in your
00:40:42 ◼ ► article that I mentioned you in there. Cause I heard from people who are like, Oh, I just play
00:40:46 ◼ ► my HomePods for my Apple TV. And it's such, it's so great. And I thought, well, that's nice. But
00:40:51 ◼ ► I also know that Myke tries to do that and he's miserable. Like I saw, uh, John Gruber linked to
00:40:56 ◼ ► it and he said that he does this and it works great for him. I don't know what other people
00:41:01 ◼ ► are doing that I'm not doing, but I mean, it really isn't great for me, but there you go.
00:41:11 ◼ ► HomeKit hubs now. Um, you know, right. It's becoming less of a, uh, what I tried to say
00:41:18 ◼ ► is if it's a HomeKit hub, which is great. If you don't have a HomePod, if you don't have an iPad in
00:41:22 ◼ ► your house, which, you know, a lot of people are going to have an iPad in their house and don't
00:41:26 ◼ ► actually the fact that it is a HomeKit hub is not necessarily, you know, it's a unique feature sort
00:41:33 ◼ ► of, but there are other Apple products that do it. So even though it's unique for streamer boxes,
00:41:43 ◼ ► Yeah. Well, it's different, right? And I, there are things about the remote that I like. I feel
00:41:50 ◼ ► like Apple could do a redesign of that remote that kept some of the features like the, the trackpad
00:41:55 ◼ ► and make it better. Um, I just didn't want to cast the remote down and say like, and the remote is a
00:42:02 ◼ ► total disaster because I have a love hate relationship with a remote, but I switched to using the
00:42:10 ◼ ► Logitech harmony remote for Apple TV. You know, I have a universal remote, the Logitech harmony,
00:42:15 ◼ ► and it will control the Apple TV, but all it does is buttons. And I would occasionally get in
00:42:20 ◼ ► scenarios where I would be in a show and I'd want to jump back 20 minutes or forward 50 minutes, or,
00:42:26 ◼ ► you know, and find that, that moment. And then, and by swiping, you know, you click to go into,
00:42:31 ◼ ► into scrub mode and then you can sort of swipe over to find where you want to be. And then you
00:42:36 ◼ ► click again and you're there and you can't do that with buttons, at least not the way that it's built
00:42:41 ◼ ► right now. And I really like that. And I use it all the time. And I heard from a lot of people who
00:42:45 ◼ ► use Siri commands all the time. Uh, I don't, but I know a lot of people do. So there's things about
00:42:50 ◼ ► that remote that are not, it's not universally terrible, even though it's got lots of issues,
00:42:54 ◼ ► it's slippery. You need to orient it properly and you can't do that on feel. Um, you can bump
00:43:00 ◼ ► against it. It's all, it's all true. Yeah. You bump against it. Somebody wrote in an acquaintance of
00:43:07 ◼ ► mine, wrote in on Twitter and said something like you bump it and, and touch it wrong. And suddenly
00:43:14 ◼ ► you're in a different dimension. And I laughed at that because I absolutely had that. In fact,
00:43:19 ◼ ► I had that happen just the other night where I, uh, I bumped it with my elbow and it started to
00:43:25 ◼ ► fall off and I grabbed it. And, and meanwhile I was sitting at the menu in, uh, on the Apple TV,
00:43:31 ◼ ► I launched an app and it started to play something and I'm like, no. And then, and then I realized
00:43:37 ◼ ► that it was, I had caught it upside down in my hand. So I was pressing the wrong buttons
00:43:42 ◼ ► and I was just like, Oh, Apple TV remote. Right? Like it was just one of those moments of like,
00:43:47 ◼ ► this is why people hate you. Um, but it has its positives too. I don't, I don't, it's not like
00:43:54 ◼ ► the hockey puck mouse or something from the original iMac. It's not that bad, but it it's got,
00:43:58 ◼ ► it's got issues, but it's also got upside. So they could, they could reinvent it in some way.
00:44:04 ◼ ► Um, but I do think it is a unique feature and there are things about it that some people like.
00:44:15 ◼ ► well, yeah, yeah, this is, this is the thing. And, and I got a lot of feedback from people
00:44:27 ◼ ► I use it to do screensavers in my photos and iCloud photos. And I, uh, I like the sophistication of
00:44:37 ◼ ► the apps because these are sort of like iOS apps. And so they've got all sorts of, uh, things that
00:44:42 ◼ ► they can do. Um, a lot of people brought up fitness plus integration, which I agree is a good example
00:44:48 ◼ ► of Apple trying to add something to the Apple TV recently to make it, uh, to give it a unique
00:44:56 ◼ ► benefit, which is it's super integrated with fitness plus now you're going to be able to
00:45:01 ◼ ► airplay the fitness app from your iPhone or iPad to any device that supports airplay in the next
00:45:09 ◼ ► full release of iOS, but it won't show your, uh, your live data, although it'll show it on your
00:45:15 ◼ ► watch. Um, and so it's one of those things where I agree, it's really nice. Also, I'm not entirely
00:45:21 ◼ ► convinced that Apple will not make an effort to make that available everywhere as well,
00:45:26 ◼ ► because they want fitness plus to have value more than they want to sell fitness plus users in Apple
00:45:32 ◼ ► TV, but we'll see us. Um, people mentioned the TV app integration, which we talked about here.
00:45:37 ◼ ► Uh, if you don't use Netflix, uh, all the other stuff you're watching, you can sit in the TV app
00:45:42 ◼ ► and it sort of knows, and it'll launch you out to those apps and it can create a sort of single
00:45:46 ◼ ► front end and watch list for everything you do. It's true. I don't use it that much because I do
00:45:50 ◼ ► use Netflix, but for everything that actually does share data, it is a pretty nice interface.
00:46:00 ◼ ► it would be, uh, even better. I wish they could make that work somehow. Right. And the big one
00:46:06 ◼ ► that I heard from a lot of people is I had, I had an item that was it's from Apple, right. And I
00:46:13 ◼ ► tried to roll a bunch of stuff in there. Like I just buy Apple stuff and I don't worry about it.
00:46:18 ◼ ► Um, you know, Apple logo is on it. It's the, it's the ecosystem owner, platform owner. It's nicer,
00:46:27 ◼ ► like all the things that are it's from Apple as opposed to it's from some other company.
00:46:32 ◼ ► What a lot of people hit me back about was also it's from Apple means I trust Apple in terms of
00:46:40 ◼ ► my data. And I don't trust random company that makes this software, whether it's Amazon or Roku
00:46:48 ◼ ► or Samsung or whoever. And so their argument is I buy the Apple TV because, um, I trust it in terms
00:46:57 ◼ ► of my privacy in a way that, um, I don't trust those other companies now. Yeah, that's a personal
00:47:03 ◼ ► choice. I think, and this is a thing that we've talked about on the show a bit. I think that it
00:47:09 ◼ ► can be overstated. Um, I think I see in those arguments, a lot of people who read that one story
00:47:17 ◼ ► about Visio a couple of years ago and have decided that all TV boxes are loss leaders that are there
00:47:25 ◼ ► to steal all of your viewing information and sell it for an enormous profit, which I don't think was
00:47:31 ◼ ► ever really true, but is, uh, you know, Visio, the beauty of that Visio story is that basically
00:47:38 ◼ ► everybody in the TV box market got, uh, scrutinized and they all have opt-outs. I have yet to see a
00:47:45 ◼ ► story anywhere of somebody who's analyzed the network data on one of these boxes that has
00:47:51 ◼ ► opted out from ad tracking or, uh, you know, uh, video tracking that they're leaking information
00:47:57 ◼ ► to people, which is not surprising because it would be an enormous scandal if it turned out
00:48:03 ◼ ► that they offered an opt-out and that it didn't opt you out. Is it not opted? Are you opted in
00:48:09 ◼ ► by default? Yeah, you are. Um, I, again, I don't love the idea that some TV box manufacturer has
00:48:23 ◼ ► Like that's like a Nielsen box. Basically your cable box may also be doing this, by the way,
00:48:27 ◼ ► Netflix is tracking what you're watching when you're in Netflix. Every service you use is
00:48:32 ◼ ► tracking you even on the Apple TV, right? They're tracking you within their silo, not across,
00:48:37 ◼ ► uh, devices, but they are absolutely doing that. Uh, Apple even has a, I believe a privacy opt-out
00:48:42 ◼ ► in TV OS, so it too, it has got some amount of data, but the LA so I think this is overblown,
00:48:49 ◼ ► but the truth is, I think it's fair to say for a certain audience, the fact that the Apple TV is
00:48:56 ◼ ► from Apple provides a level of comfort that a random company that they've never heard of,
00:49:02 ◼ ► or only have heard of in passing or don't trust for other reasons can provide. And I think that's,
00:49:07 ◼ ► I think that's fair. I would probably argue that that doesn't count for most people. It doesn't
00:49:13 ◼ ► counterbalance the fact that you can get this one for $35 and this one's a one 179, but for some
00:49:20 ◼ ► people it does. So even though I can be a little skeptical that I think maybe this is overstated
00:49:26 ◼ ► on both sides, uh, it is perceived as an advantage for Apple. And, you know, I don't think anybody
00:49:35 ◼ ► expects Apple to make a product for $35 just because Roku does right now. That's not what
00:49:39 ◼ ► Apple does, but the difference between the Apple TV and every other model, all of which have been
00:49:46 ◼ ► updated in the last six months and Apple TV hasn't been updated for two years. It's worth,
00:49:51 ◼ ► we're thinking about what else could Apple do to make this product more appealing because even the
00:49:56 ◼ ► most exciting, excited, beloved, devoted fan of the Apple TV. And I heard from all of them because
00:50:04 ◼ ► they're convinced that I'm saying that they should, somebody, a mean man should come to their house and
00:50:08 ◼ ► take their Apple TV away. I guess, even though I said I use it every day. Um, even they would
00:50:14 ◼ ► probably admit that they love this product so much, perhaps Apple should be working very hard
00:50:22 ◼ ► to improve it, to find ways to make it have unique value and find ways to make it more appealing. So
00:50:30 ◼ ► more people buy it because again, it's a stronger product if it's actively updated and flying off
00:50:38 ◼ ► the shelves and people want to be on the platform. It's more viable as a product that way. It's a
00:50:43 ◼ ► better product that way. And it's been kind of drifting for two years. So what can they do then?
00:50:49 ◼ ► Brain box. What can they do? I don't know. Give it up, call it a day, shut her down. I mean,
00:50:56 ◼ ► that's the thing they could do. They could, they could. And I think I've gotten enough feedback
00:51:04 ◼ ► from, if they wanted to shut down the Apple TV, they would need to make a greater effort to
00:51:10 ◼ ► integrate some of their other ecosystem stuff into the TV app, which they haven't done, which leads
00:51:15 ◼ ► me to believe that it won't happen. Although it's possible it could happen, right? Like, Oh, well,
00:51:19 ◼ ► I want access to my iCloud photo library. Well, they could update the TV app to give you access
00:51:24 ◼ ► to that. Right. And they'd be like, no, just buy Roku. It's fine. I don't think they will. I think
00:51:28 ◼ ► that they're going to keep this around in some form just as a pricey platform object. Right.
00:51:36 ◼ ► But so Ben and John on Dithering talked about games. And I think it's interesting. There are,
00:51:48 ◼ ► I'm not sure it'll work because Apple and games generally has not worked in history. And when it
00:51:52 ◼ ► works, it's accidental. But there are two ways of looking at it. And I want, I want your thoughts
00:51:59 ◼ ► about this as somebody who cares about games. One way to look at it is, well, just make a game
00:52:04 ◼ ► console like a super souped up Apple TV with controllers and access to games on the app store
00:52:10 ◼ ► and court game developers to be on the app store and get their games on the app store. And, and,
00:52:24 ◼ ► which seems like a stretch to me. And the alternative is to say, we're a different kind
00:52:31 ◼ ► of game console, just like Nintendo does different kinds of game consoles, but we are going to make a
00:52:37 ◼ ► push in terms of gaming capability and controllers. And they've already started doing some of that,
00:52:43 ◼ ► but it's never going to be, you know, they're going to use continue using their iOS foundation.
00:52:48 ◼ ► And not, not make it feel truly like something that could compete with something like PlayStation
00:52:54 ◼ ► or Xbox, but more than just a video streamer, which at least in terms of their hardware is the
00:53:01 ◼ ► right thing to do because their hardware is way too powerful for just streaming video. So what
00:53:06 ◼ ► else do you do with it? What, you know, is any gaming strategy for Apple TV viable? Do you think?
00:53:11 ◼ ► No. Um, moving on. Well, so like, you know, I will say it so, so abruptly because I genuinely
00:53:19 ◼ ► believe there isn't one. Uh, I would love to be proven wrong, but I don't understand where they
00:53:25 ◼ ► could fit. So Apple is not going to make a PlayStation or Xbox competitor because it's more
00:53:33 ◼ ► than just adding a controller right now. Microsoft and Sony do not want to make consoles that are as
00:53:45 ◼ ► that's the kind of hardware that you're looking at. Right. And I can't imagine Apple building a
00:53:52 ◼ ► larger Apple TV. I'm not saying it has to be as big as like the Xbox series S for example.
00:54:02 ◼ ► The PS5 is absurdly large and yes, but it's doing a lot and Apple could maybe go along the road of
00:54:10 ◼ ► the Xbox series S, which is like, it's not giving you all of the power, but you could at least play
00:54:15 ◼ ► all the games, et cetera. But the problem with the AAA strategy, the high end high quality games,
00:54:26 ◼ ► right? Just look at Apple versus Epic, right? That's the issue, right? Like that is the closest
00:54:33 ◼ ► to a top tier game that would be on iOS and just the market forces just won't allow for it.
00:54:40 ◼ ► And there are many other issues here, right? So just looking, I'm going to come to Nintendo in
00:54:45 ◼ ► a minute. Let me count you there. If only to say that my understanding is that the console app
00:54:50 ◼ ► stores take a percentage that's comparable to what Apple takes. They take a percentage. But I really
00:54:57 ◼ ► loved a lot of the, like John Surcuse put this in a great way on some episodes of ATP, but the thing
00:55:03 ◼ ► is there is a percentage that is taken by the console makers, but there's a bunch of other
00:55:07 ◼ ► things going on. It's probably negotiate. It's definitely negotiable. Right. And you need to be
00:55:12 ◼ ► on those consoles, right? You don't, they don't need to be on an Apple TV. Apple TV would be a
00:55:16 ◼ ► hungry console that would need to really cut a deal to get some things that are considered AAA
00:55:20 ◼ ► running on their platform. But there are deals, right? So the big games, you're getting extra
00:55:25 ◼ ► money for making the exclusive appearance at times. The marketing, the legit marketing, right,
00:55:30 ◼ ► is that they spend on that together. Um, like they are taking a cut, but you're getting a lot for it.
00:55:38 ◼ ► Not just if you are a big developer, not just the right to be on the platform, right? There's a lot
00:55:44 ◼ ► of to and throw, which is something that Apple doesn't do. And I can't imagine they would ever
00:55:49 ◼ ► do because they have no history of doing this and they've had no history of doing this at times when
00:55:55 ◼ ► they should have done it. Right. Like we look at Apple news plus they should be more give and take
00:56:01 ◼ ► in that if they really wanted that to succeed, but they're just not interested in give and take,
00:56:05 ◼ ► right. They're just interested in take, right? Like you should be lucky to be here, right? It's
00:56:11 ◼ ► kind of a lot of the, the feeling that people get from these deals, especially with content.
00:56:18 ◼ ► So I just can't imagine them doing this, right? Like, do you think that the first time Apple
00:56:23 ◼ ► found out that Epic had an issue was when they did that thing that they did? No. Right? Like Epic
00:56:29 ◼ ► was very clearly voicing what they wanted from Apple and Apple didn't want to give it. I'm not
00:56:35 ◼ ► saying what's right or wrong. I'm just saying like, this is the, this is kind of how Apple
00:56:39 ◼ ► treat these types of relationships. It seems right. So I can't imagine that even though these
00:56:44 ◼ ► other, like, even though Sony and Microsoft take that cut, there's more of an arrangement between
00:56:49 ◼ ► these businesses and it's less clear. Like just like we take this, then you get to be on the platform.
00:56:54 ◼ ► That's that. So just staying on Sony and Microsoft for a minute, marketing is so strong, right? Like
00:57:01 ◼ ► amongst the people that play these games, they want one of these two consoles. Apple would have
00:57:06 ◼ ► to do so much to try and convince people that they're a player in that field. But this is not
00:57:11 ◼ ► the field they're going for anyway. They're going for games, right? And you mentioned Nintendo,
00:57:15 ◼ ► people mentioned Nintendo. Oh, they're just doing a Nintendo thing. Oh my God. I love you, Jason.
00:57:20 ◼ ► You're great. This is so incredible. But Myke, Apple has decades where they have rolled out
00:57:35 ◼ ► spinning rainbow cursor. Oh my God. Can you imagine a game that is the adventures of the dog cow and
00:57:42 ◼ ► the spinning rainbow cursor in finder land? The beloved chess. Uh, so like people look at Nintendo
00:57:50 ◼ ► and they're like, oh, Nintendo managed to do this without the big beefy hardware. Nintendo have
00:57:56 ◼ ► a level of creativity in their games and their hardware that everybody else wishes they could.
00:58:01 ◼ ► Like for example, right? Everyone's like, oh my God, you cannot buy a PlayStation right now. They
00:58:06 ◼ ► must be doing so well. Nintendo in the same quarter sold, I think it was nearly twice the amount
00:58:11 ◼ ► of switches. Right. And I mean, yes, they have supply, but the switch is like three or four years
00:58:17 ◼ ► old at this point. Like it's a different beast. Well, I mentioned Nintendo only to say it's
00:58:23 ◼ ► possible. I'm just, I'm just trying to make this argument. I'm trying to parse this out.
00:58:35 ◼ ► triple a console like Sony and Microsoft. Yes. That would have some appeal. I think the problem,
00:58:42 ◼ ► and I mentioned the switch just because Nintendo has always gone its own way. The difference is
00:58:46 ◼ ► Nintendo has a track record and audience and intellectual property that put it over the edge.
00:58:51 ◼ ► Whereas what Apple would bring is, you know, that game, that puzzle game you like on your iPad,
00:58:57 ◼ ► you know, that thing where you touch the color gems on your iPhone. Well, now it can be on your TV,
00:59:02 ◼ ► which is not a great, a great match. And I don't, you know, short of Apple, you know, buying
00:59:14 ◼ ► I think it's more likely for Apple to be successful trying to do something that is not a
00:59:19 ◼ ► triple a console than Apple trying to be a triple a console, if that makes any sense. I'm not sure
00:59:24 ◼ ► either of them are great, but I could see, I could see it a little bit better given that every iOS
00:59:31 ◼ ► device works with controllers. Now I could see them making a push for more content that uses
00:59:42 ◼ ► and is best on controllers. I'm not sure it would work, but I could see it. I just, I can't see it
00:59:48 ◼ ► being a PlayStation, right? That I can't see. In fact, you could argue with the AR/VR stuff that
00:59:56 ◼ ► if they want to go down this path, they really do need to embrace gaming because gaming is an
01:00:02 ◼ ► application for all of this stuff and Apple's not very good at it. So, yes, I agree with that.
01:00:08 ◼ ► I wanted to address like the game, because I see people say casual gaming, right? Like,
01:00:14 ◼ ► why doesn't Apple make the Apple TV great for casual gamers? But what's casual about turning
01:00:19 ◼ ► on your TV? Exactly. Right? That's the challenge. If what you're saying is we're going to take the
01:00:24 ◼ ► casual games for casual gamers and put them on the Apple TV, you have completely divorced the idea of
01:00:32 ◼ ► casual gaming because it is not casual to sit down in front. Casual gaming works because these are
01:00:39 ◼ ► games that you play when you are waiting for something or you're doing something else or
01:00:43 ◼ ► you're trying to pass time. These are the games you play on your iPhone, right? They work on your
01:00:48 ◼ ► iPhone because they are built around this idea of killing time. Sitting down at games, at a television
01:00:56 ◼ ► to play a game, it is not casual gaming anymore. You've made it gaming. You've removed the casual
01:01:02 ◼ ► from it. Right. And again, if you were Nintendo and had Mario, sorry, John Mario, and all of that
01:01:13 ◼ ► stuff, right? You had Mario and you had Kirby and you had all those characters and all those titles
01:01:20 ◼ ► that you've done for years and years. Well, then you could maybe release an Apple TV-like product
01:01:35 ◼ ► but Apple doesn't have any of that. You do need something to be there, I feel like. Something that
01:01:46 ◼ ► is going to draw people there other than that it's Apple. And that's the challenge here, right? We've
01:01:52 ◼ ► seen the game story for the last few years on the Apple TV. And the fact is, I want to say this too,
01:01:57 ◼ ► can the Apple TV be a decent game platform? Yes, it can. And a new one could be even better at it.
01:02:04 ◼ ► And they all connect to controllers. And if you've played a game that works well with a controller,
01:02:10 ◼ ► like Sayonara Wild Hearts on the Apple TV, it's really good. I also use it for party games for the
01:02:17 ◼ ► Jackbox Party Pack. All of that is true. The challenge is how do you and Apple Arcade games
01:02:22 ◼ ► play on the Apple TV? And yet it's not there on the software side and I'm not sure how it gets
01:02:28 ◼ ► there. No, it's like, so the thing about the Apple TV, the Apple TV can be a thing that also has games,
01:02:35 ◼ ► which is great, rather than a thing you buy because it has games. And I can't imagine it ever
01:02:42 ◼ ► being more than that for all of the reasons. So Terrence in the chat room says, I'd argue Apple
01:02:48 ◼ ► TV doesn't need a distinct strategy. It just needs to support Apple Arcade and they need to put a lot
01:02:52 ◼ ► more resources behind it. I do think that is a distinct, well, okay. I agree with Terrence,
01:02:58 ◼ ► indistinct strategy seems to be Apple's current strategy for Apple TV. And maybe it's the right
01:03:01 ◼ ► one, which is to go back to a joke that I made about the original Apple Watch presentation.
01:03:07 ◼ ► What doesn't it do? Right? Like what is the Apple TV for? It's for all those things I listed earlier
01:03:12 ◼ ► and it's for games and Apple Arcade. And yes, they could pour a lot more money into Apple Arcade
01:03:18 ◼ ► and say the Apple TV box is an arcade box and we're building, we're putting a lot of money into
01:03:24 ◼ ► making really good controller based games that you're going to want to plop down in front of your
01:03:27 ◼ ► TV with an Apple TV and play. And they're family friendly and your kids are going to love them and
01:03:32 ◼ ► you're going to love them as a grownup. And it's not quite the same as buying a console and it'll
01:03:36 ◼ ► also be your streamer box, et cetera, et cetera, in a way that like, other than harder core gamers,
01:03:42 ◼ ► people are not like, right. The last generation of consoles, game consoles, they're like,
01:03:46 ◼ ► it's also your TV box. And everybody was like, no, it's not stop, just stop. And you can watch
01:04:09 ◼ ► HDMI out. It's like, forget about it. So I think Terrence's point is good in the sense that
01:04:15 ◼ ► indistinct, it does these kinds of games on Apple arcade and we can put money into Apple arcade to
01:04:19 ◼ ► try and make the TV titles for Apple arcade better. And then we could also do a bunch of
01:04:24 ◼ ► other stuff, including stuff we haven't talked about yet, other ways that they could go and,
01:04:29 ◼ ► and just sort of be like what, you know, Apple TV, it's just better and does a bunch of stuff.
01:04:35 ◼ ► And if any of these things hit you, you'll buy it. And, and that might be something I, I still
01:04:42 ◼ ► think it needs to cost less, or at least there needs to be a version of it that costs a lot less,
01:04:48 ◼ ► not because Apple needs to be the low price leader. It never does, but because the prices
01:04:52 ◼ ► of the other computing boxes are so low that it needs to come down. Now the 4k Dolby vision,
01:04:58 ◼ ► Dolby Atmos version of Roku costs 99, but the 4k HDR version costs 35. So is there, I don't know,
01:05:08 ◼ ► I don't want to set the Apple price for this, but one 79 is not it. So give it to me for one
01:05:13 ◼ ► Oh nine or one 19 or, or, or make a version that's $99. You know, it would be very much like Tim
01:05:20 ◼ ► Cook's Apple for the current Apple TV 4k to get cut to 99. And then for them to make a new fancy
01:05:25 ◼ ► one that's one 79. And that might be okay. Um, but the, are we done with games? Cause there's the
01:05:32 ◼ ► other things that I said, all I need to say about games. That won't work basically. Um,
01:05:37 ◼ ► home home kit and, and smart home is another area that they could beef up if they wanted to
01:05:42 ◼ ► their, their smart home strategy is broken. They brought in somebody new a couple of years ago. We
01:05:47 ◼ ► haven't really seen a lot there, although a home pod mini has the thread radio in it. And like,
01:05:52 ◼ ► there's, there's signs they're working on a chop, the connected home, uh, uh, thing with everybody.
01:05:59 ◼ ► The idea here is it's the day taunt in smart home so that you should going forward at some point
01:06:04 ◼ ► here, just be able to buy smart home stuff. And it works with everything. It works with Google.
01:06:07 ◼ ► And Apple and Alexa and all those things. It just, it works and it's fine. And it may be that they're
01:06:13 ◼ ► kind of on hold until that all gets resolved. But I do think smart home stuff could be a way for the
01:06:21 ◼ ► Apple TV to differentiate. Um, if Apple made a wifi router, they could use it as a, as a, a mesh
01:06:27 ◼ ► network hub. That would be nice. Um, the, and you know, you talked to Federico about this sometimes
01:06:34 ◼ ► on connected home. The home app has automations that are essentially shortcuts, but it's a very,
01:06:39 ◼ ► and the shortcuts run on the home kit hub. So they don't run on, on a, like a computer or an iPad or
01:06:44 ◼ ► an iPhone. They run on the home kit server, which can be an iPad, but you see my point and they're
01:06:49 ◼ ► very limited. There's a set of things that you can automate there. Well, Apple could beef that up.
01:06:54 ◼ ► Apple could say on this Apple TV it's, it's basically a whole computer in there and there's
01:06:59 ◼ ► lots of other stuff it can do now. And look, you won't, you won't believe what you can automate in
01:07:03 ◼ ► your home. Um, they presumably would put like a thread radio in there. Cause one of the things
01:07:08 ◼ ► that would be really nice is I could stop buying little plastic boxes that I have to plug into
01:07:12 ◼ ► ethernet and the wall in order to turn on lights in my house. Um, but like all these different
01:07:18 ◼ ► smart home, uh, old standards all connect via different things. It could be something more like
01:07:24 ◼ ► something more like home bridge where it it's able to suck in a bunch of different things. Like
01:07:29 ◼ ► they could do work to say, this is a great home product at a level that they haven't yet. And
01:07:36 ◼ ► that might be again, is that the only reason you'd buy one? No, but it would be another one on the
01:07:41 ◼ ► pile. And if we're going with the indirect or unfocused strategy here, then that would be
01:07:46 ◼ ► something you could do. And then the other thing I'll just throw out there is my hobby horse. I've
01:07:50 ◼ ► been beat. I've been beating this drum for years now, but take your home pod tech, take your Apple
01:07:57 ◼ ► TV tech and take your smart home tech and make a soundbar so that people can plop an Apple branded.
01:08:04 ◼ ► Great sounding thing in front of their TV or above their TV or wherever you put your soundbar
01:08:10 ◼ ► and attach it to the TV. And it does video, it does Apple music. It sounds great. It does home
01:08:16 ◼ ► theater surround sound when you're doing that. And it's also your home pod hub. And it's like,
01:08:21 ◼ ► I don't know again. Yeah, they're competing with Sonos and do they really want to make it, but
01:08:24 ◼ ► like they already make literally all the parts of it with the home pod and the Apple TV. And I would
01:08:30 ◼ ► wager Myke, that you would not have the problems you're having with your home pods and your Apple
01:08:34 ◼ ► TV. If they were literally one box where they were all just connected. So I don't know again,
01:08:43 ◼ ► is that the solution? Probably not, but I feel like with Apple TV, if it's going to exist,
01:08:49 ◼ ► it needs to be more affordable and we need to Apple needs to, cause we can't do it really.
01:08:53 ◼ ► Apple needs to add some more new things on the pile because it took away some of its specialness
01:08:59 ◼ ► in the drive to spread Apple's entertainment platforms across connected devices. And honestly,
01:09:07 ◼ ► the airplay thing doesn't get enough. Airplay is such a great feature of owning an Apple product
01:09:12 ◼ ► and to have it be increasingly common on other devices is a big win for Mac users and iPad users
01:09:20 ◼ ► and iPhone users, but it comes at the cost of the unique value of the Apple TV. Somebody
01:09:25 ◼ ► during the Twitter back and forth last week said they're a teacher at a school and they bought
01:09:30 ◼ ► Apple TVs for every projector so that they can project from their screen. And that's great,
01:09:35 ◼ ► but today I would bet you that their IT manager would buy $35 Roku's instead because they do the
01:09:41 ◼ ► same thing and they wouldn't buy the $179 Apple TVs or whatever the education price is. So again,
01:09:48 ◼ ► we need to make a pile of features and low price. And you know, that's how Apple keeps the Apple TV
01:09:54 ◼ ► valuable and viable and make people want to buy it is they need to like with fitness plus,
01:10:08 ◼ ► It's kind of funny really. Cause like thinking about the iPad line, like the iPad air got a
01:10:13 ◼ ► bunch of features that the iPad pro had. And we're just naturally assuming because of the way that
01:10:17 ◼ ► Apple's done things in the past that the next iPad pro is going to get a bunch of things that the
01:10:21 ◼ ► iPad air doesn't have to like make it, make a reason for you to want to keep continuing buying
01:10:26 ◼ ► the more expensive product. And there's a kind of a similarity here, right? Where Apple took a bunch
01:10:32 ◼ ► of things that were exclusive to the Apple TV and made them more widely available. So now to get
01:10:37 ◼ ► people to want to buy the next Apple TV, if there ever is one, they need to do this exact thing,
01:10:42 ◼ ► right? Like there has to be some kind of USP to this product. You need differentiation between
01:10:48 ◼ ► you, even though the $35 Roku is not available in every country, but it is in the US Apple cares the
01:10:54 ◼ ► most about the US. I know they're looking at that. You need to have differentiation, even if it's not
01:10:59 ◼ ► your product, you need to have enough differentiation between you and the $35 product to make the
01:11:04 ◼ ► difference in price worth it. And the Apple logo is part of it. And Apple's privacy promise is part
01:11:09 ◼ ► of it. Like all of those ad, but you need to make the case to enough people to make that product
01:11:16 ◼ ► successful. And as the product has sat there unchanged, it keeps getting less differentiated.
01:11:22 ◼ ► Right. And so, so you're right. We expect it from the iPad pro. I think we need to expect it from
01:11:27 ◼ ► the Apple TV that they're going to find some ways to differentiate it because otherwise I don't
01:11:32 ◼ ► really know why it's around. Um, and, and putting a new processor in it. Cause imagine if it doesn't
01:11:37 ◼ ► do anything new and then they put a new processor in it from the latest generation sort of like,
01:11:42 ◼ ► okay, uh, what does that get me? Right? Like what is it's it's like the storage thing. It's like,
01:12:04 ◼ ► Sad thing is a lot of people don't have a lot of choice. ISPs have controls in the region that they
01:12:08 ◼ ► serve and you kind of have to just go at what's available, but then they can take advantage of
01:12:12 ◼ ► you in different ways. They could put data caps and streaming throttles and stuff like that.
01:12:15 ◼ ► Maybe you don't get the ultimate speed that you want. The list goes on, but they can also log your
01:12:20 ◼ ► internet, internet activity, which they could sell, or they could use this data for their own
01:12:24 ◼ ► purposes, which might not be something that you want, but what are you going to do? You need
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01:13:06 ◼ ► show and the West Wing. So there was a West Wing special on HBO Max and it was actually free on
01:13:14 ◼ ► their website. So anyone could watch it only if you're in the US. So I turned on express VPN and
01:13:22 ◼ ► then I was on my phone and I was able to airplay it to my Apple TV and I could watch the whole
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01:13:37 ◼ ► You tap one button on your device and you can say you're from somewhere else and you can also be
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01:13:46 ◼ ► watching the entire West Wing? Yeah, super weird. It was super, super weird because I was so used
01:13:50 ◼ ► to the way that they looked and then it was a great special, but yeah, they're all, they're all
01:13:54 ◼ ► 15 years older now. Yeah. Which was very weird for me, but yeah, but super good. And I was very
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01:14:39 ◼ ► hashtag ask upgrade questions. Stitch wants to know, do you use bookmarks in Safari? If so, what for?
01:14:47 ◼ ► Uh, I use bookmarks to store. I just recently deleted a lot of bookmarks cause I had them there
01:14:53 ◼ ► for decades. Um, I use them for things that I think I need to have available cause I'm probably
01:15:00 ◼ ► going to need to come back there eventually. There aren't that many, but it just happens
01:15:03 ◼ ► occasionally. Also recipes. If I make something off of a random recipe website, I will add that
01:15:10 ◼ ► as a bookmark so I can get back there and make it again. Um, and otherwise I basically just use the
01:15:18 ◼ ► uh, favorites bar. So I, that's really how I use bookmarks is I use the favorites bar and I have
01:15:25 ◼ ► all of my content management stuff, uh, six colors, the incomparable relay IDG is all in there. Um,
01:15:34 ◼ ► I have a quick jumps to my sites and my weather page and uh, some COVID-19 data is in there and
01:15:43 ◼ ► home bridge is in there. So that's basically how I use bookmarks other than like to store recipes or
01:15:51 ◼ ► other things. Like there was a get hub, something that I was like a project that I wanted to keep my
01:15:55 ◼ ► eye on and I added that, but it's very rare that I use bookmarks anymore for anything other than
01:15:59 ◼ ► sort of like save it for later or it's the stuff that's in my uh, in my toolbar. I don't use
01:16:07 ◼ ► bookmarks. I have some bookmarks in Safari and I don't know how they got there. They're very old.
01:16:22 ◼ ► um, it has the ability to, uh, if I go to a webpage, I can hit a bookmarklet and it will
01:16:28 ◼ ► save it to the CMS. Um, yeah, I have, I have all those in there and those are great. I've got one
01:16:32 ◼ ► that, um, will kick out video into a picture and picture on the Mac. Well actually Mac or iPad.
01:16:38 ◼ ► Um, that's really nice. Um, yeah, those are, those are, I should have mentioned that the
01:16:44 ◼ ► bookmarklets are very helpful too for that reason. So that's, that's what I use them for.
01:16:49 ◼ ► And the other thing that I use them for, um, although I don't use this as much as I used to
01:16:55 ◼ ► is I have all of my Google docs that I use for podcasts, uh, planning Google sheets or the
01:17:03 ◼ ► upgrade doc or the liftoff doc. And I used to use launch bar, which would index, uh, Safari
01:17:11 ◼ ► bookmarks. So I could launch the upgrade notes from launch bar, but I changed at some point
01:17:18 ◼ ► because those are all Google docs. I have, um, you know, Google drive, uh, and it's just web links to
01:17:26 ◼ ► those things too. But now I have, I think I have, I have launch bar scanning Google drive for the
01:17:31 ◼ ► names of all my Google docs and I get it that way, but for a while I was using it and I may switch
01:17:36 ◼ ► back. But that idea is that I'm not just launching apps using launch bar. I'm also launching web
01:17:41 ◼ ► pages like Google docs. So I use it for that. And I do, I think I do have my bookmarks indexed by
01:17:49 ◼ ► uh, by launch bar as well. So if something gets added in there, like a recipe or a doc that I'm
01:17:55 ◼ ► working on, I can get it through launch bar as well. And that's convenient rather than going to
01:17:58 ◼ ► the menu or something. I very rarely do that or auto or auto-complete right. If you in the URL
01:18:03 ◼ ► bar, you start typing the thing that you want and because it's in bookmarks, it just shows up there.
01:18:08 ◼ ► But I very rarely I'm like, now I'm at the point in my day where I will go to my bookmarks. I don't
01:18:13 ◼ ► do that. Like if I want to open the upgrade show notes, I just open a new tab and type in UPG and
01:18:18 ◼ ► it's like, Hey, and I just press enter and then that's it. Right. Like, so I do, I do space command
01:18:23 ◼ ► space UPG for a launch bar and hit return. It opens it up that way too. We keep getting lots of,
01:18:30 ◼ ► um, VR and AR ask upgrade questions. Keep sending them in. This one came from Seth. Uh, why is VR
01:18:37 ◼ ► and AR considered only for mobile during the discussions that you're having in an M1 world
01:18:41 ◼ ► where PC tablet phones are the same, like PC tablet and phone are the same. $3,000 endless
01:18:47 ◼ ► XDR display for my M1 MacBook sounds like an amazing idea. Why limit ideas and theories to
01:18:53 ◼ ► only what the phone can do? I think that's a great question. I do think that if VR and AR
01:19:00 ◼ ► ultimately becomes ever present and seamless, the idea that you won't need a big screen because you
01:19:10 ◼ ► can have a virtual screen anywhere you go will definitely become a thing that people will do
01:19:16 ◼ ► that you don't, you know, need a physical screen anymore because you can just make a virtual screen
01:19:21 ◼ ► that's as big as you want it to be and move it around with you and whatever. I think that's true.
01:19:25 ◼ ► However, they're all the physical issues, right? Which is, is it going to, is it going to be good
01:19:30 ◼ ► enough? If it's good enough, is it going to be heavy or hot or uncomfortable in the beginning?
01:19:35 ◼ ► It will be in the long run. Maybe not. Maybe it'll be more like just wearing a pair of glasses and
01:19:40 ◼ ► you put on your glasses and you're, you've got a computer screen. But, but I worry about the
01:19:45 ◼ ► ergonomics of it, that if you're working all day with a thing clamped onto your face, it's not
01:19:55 ◼ ► go away because the technology has advanced? And I think that's going to be a while, but I do think,
01:20:00 ◼ ► I do think that the end goal is seamless AR and VR and seamless AR where you can put a screen up
01:20:09 ◼ ► in front of somebody is quite possible. And at that point we won't need displays anymore,
01:20:15 ◼ ► but it feels like that's a long way off. So I think like the thing that Seth is talking about
01:20:21 ◼ ► here is this mixed reality headset because they say a $3,000. Right. So it's $3,000 at that price
01:20:27 ◼ ► point. And like, this is a great idea if it, if you discount the comfort of it, right? Because
01:20:35 ◼ ► I'll tell you, right? Like I said, someone, I have an Oculus Quest. I can't have it on for three,
01:20:39 ◼ ► four hours at a time. I watched a 3D, I watched the doctor who 50th anniversary special in 3D
01:20:45 ◼ ► on my Oculus Quest two. It took me four sessions to do it. Yeah. Cause it was just not very
01:20:53 ◼ ► comfortable and it's better now cause I've got the new, uh, I've got the, the upgraded, uh, strap
01:20:59 ◼ ► that actually is comfortable even, even so I, you know, I play 11 table tennis for 45 minutes and
01:21:06 ◼ ► I'm like, I'm done for awhile. And my face is all flushed. I'm really, really, really, really,
01:21:11 ◼ ► really, really, really bad at table tennis is what I've learned. Okay. You should add me as a friend
01:21:15 ◼ ► and then I'll just beat you. Well, no, this is why I won't do that because I'm really, really,
01:21:19 ◼ ► really, really, really, really bad. It's a fun game. I'm just terrible at it. So, so that's,
01:21:25 ◼ ► I mean, that's my answer to Seth is that in the long run. Yeah, sure. Like I love the idea that
01:21:30 ◼ ► in the long run, like let's, let's put it all out there with hand tracking, precise hand and finger
01:21:35 ◼ ► tracking. You should be able to put on this magical futuristic set of AR glasses that don't
01:21:42 ◼ ► squeeze your face and make you miserable and sit anywhere and put your hands out and type into the
01:21:48 ◼ ► air and have it all work and mouse with your finger and do all whatever you want, whatever
01:21:53 ◼ ► works for you and have it all be virtual. That, that absolutely is a thing that could happen.
01:21:59 ◼ ► And I think the challenge is going to be, uh, ergonomics and that's not just the ergonomics
01:22:03 ◼ ► of the thing that you clamp on your face, but it's also the ergonomics of things like, what do I do
01:22:09 ◼ ► for eight hours? Am I standing? Am I sitting? Am I typing in the air or am I typing on a solid
01:22:14 ◼ ► surface? Uh, is a keyboard better ergonomically because of the feedback it gives you or is it
01:22:21 ◼ ► pointless and you don't need it anymore? And some of that stuff is unknown, honestly. Um,
01:22:26 ◼ ► and my guess is it's complicated and different bodies are going to react differently, but like,
01:22:30 ◼ ► what are the best practices for a completely virtual environment beyond the thing clamped
01:22:35 ◼ ► to your face? It's just going to take a while, but maybe someday. Jay asks, in terms of cloud storage,
01:22:42 ◼ ► Dropbox or iCloud? Dropbox for me, I use iCloud more than I used to, but I, uh, I pay for
01:22:50 ◼ ► Dropbox and I use it all the time. I use a bunch of Dropbox features that iCloud doesn't support.
01:22:55 ◼ ► So if iCloud supported every feature that Dropbox that I use in Dropbox, I would consider using
01:23:02 ◼ ► iCloud instead because I found iCloud to be fairly reliable, although less reliable than Dropbox,
01:23:08 ◼ ► but fairly reliable. It's way better than it used to be, but I use shared folders and file requests
01:23:16 ◼ ► and, you know, I, I project, yeah, versioning and undelete and rewind and all sorts of these
01:23:24 ◼ ► features that iCloud doesn't have any of that. And I don't think it's ever going to have most of that
01:23:28 ◼ ► because those are like pro features and I can't really imagine Apple, uh, implementing all of
01:23:35 ◼ ► them, but if it were to do so, I would consider it. But for my use Dropbox, for sure. Yeah. And
01:23:40 ◼ ► I'm the same, you know, even like that, that I think they call it, I don't think it's called
01:23:48 ◼ ► smart sync. Is that the one where like it keeps all of your stuff and you just download what you
01:23:52 ◼ ► need? Yeah. I was really unsure about that feature, but I use it now, um, on my MacBook Pro and I love
01:23:59 ◼ ► it because the great thing is I have a terabyte of stuff in my Dropbox. So I can't, I can't, you know,
01:24:07 ◼ ► it's, it's very expensive for me to get computers that I can actually have all of my files on in
01:24:12 ◼ ► that way. Right. Um, so I really liked that. Um, that's it. I, I, I, I liked that feature a lot
01:24:19 ◼ ► and, and it's smart. It does a good job, but this, you know, this thing that you're saying about like
01:24:22 ◼ ► Dropbox is rock solid for me. Right. And so the idea of me ever thinking about moving to iCloud
01:24:29 ◼ ► for file storage is just unfathomable. Right. If Dropbox is around, I'm just going to use Dropbox
01:24:34 ◼ ► because I don't have issues with Dropbox and any issues I do have, you know, like if I was to have
01:24:39 ◼ ► some kind of file issue, something got deleted when I didn't need it to, they have a very usable
01:24:44 ◼ ► system for going in and getting that stuff out. You try and recover a file from iCloud that you've
01:24:51 ◼ ► accidentally deleted, right. Or like that there's a, somebody's made an edit on it. It's, it's barely,
01:24:56 ◼ ► it's like barely, barely possible. I do use iCloud a lot. Like if an app has iCloud syncing
01:25:04 ◼ ► for its data, I'll use that. But when it comes to like where my files are stored, I use Dropbox.
01:25:10 ◼ ► Like for example, numbers and pages, I use iCloud. Great. Like it's all there. And I, I kind of
01:25:16 ◼ ► consider that as like the apps syncing system, but when it comes to like, where do I save my PDFs,
01:25:23 ◼ ► I save them in Dropbox. Yes. Yeah. All my stories are in a stories folder on Dropbox. That's linked
01:25:30 ◼ ► to the editor that I use on iOS. And so it syncs. And could I do that with iCloud? Maybe. And I might
01:25:38 ◼ ► at some point, but again, I set it up with Dropbox and it works great. And when I've tried to do that
01:25:43 ◼ ► with iCloud, I do end up in those situations sometimes where iCloud just doesn't see the
01:25:47 ◼ ► changes. It's very frustrating. And that's why I said it's more reliable. Dropbox has those issues
01:25:53 ◼ ► occasionally. iCloud has them more than occasionally, even now. It's much better than it
01:25:58 ◼ ► used to be, but it's just not there. So I don't, I'm not going to drag either of these cause they
01:26:03 ◼ ► do both have their uses, but I think honestly, I would say, I think we're very close to the
01:26:08 ◼ ► expected result here. I think iCloud, you know, they had these issues with folder sharing and like
01:26:14 ◼ ► it was there and they took it away in the betas and all that, but like folder sharing among people
01:26:17 ◼ ► in iCloud, that's a feature that Apple should add. But a lot of the stuff we use Dropbox for,
01:26:22 ◼ ► I'm not sure I would advocate that. I mean, if they could reconceive time machine to be a front
01:26:28 ◼ ► end to iCloud file versioning so that you could, that would be, that would be a feature that would
01:26:34 ◼ ► be nice and good because versioning is there on IO or on a, on MacOS in iCloud, but it's,
01:26:42 ◼ ► it's weird. And I'm not sure it's iCloud based as well as it's machine-based. So like I could
01:26:48 ◼ ► see them doing versioning at a consumer level and I can see them do doing folder sharing, but
01:26:53 ◼ ► some of the stuff we use Dropbox for, they're never going to do that. So that's, and that's fine,
01:26:58 ◼ ► right? Because Dropbox is a professional tool for lots of stuff that iCloud never needs to be.
01:27:05 ◼ ► And so I think if Apple, Apple doesn't have to be Dropbox to make iCloud what it should be,
01:27:23 ◼ ► I haven't. CoreRecorder was the first one and I didn't even know. I didn't know until that article
01:27:31 ◼ ► came out cause I hadn't tried to install it because I hadn't done any recordings on my Mac Pro.
01:27:45 ◼ ► Yeah. I, um, I think Photoshop works on it, but I'm using the Photoshop beta that's native on
01:27:50 ◼ ► Apple Silicon. But other than that, I have not run into anything. Cause we had the great Catalina
01:27:57 ◼ ► 32 bit app death. Right. And I haven't tried to run, you know, obviously like VMware or something
01:28:04 ◼ ► like that running windows emulation would have a problem. Right. But I'm not, I haven't tried any
01:28:08 ◼ ► of that. And those apps that I really relied on other than CoreRecorder are mostly the apps that
01:28:14 ◼ ► I, that I already replaced because of Catalina and the 32 bit apocalypse. So, um, no, when I
01:28:20 ◼ ► use my MacBook air, it's just, it's just great. It just works. It's all those things, right? It's
01:28:25 ◼ ► just, it's fine. It has been the least dramatic switch over. Um, which is why I think that the
01:28:33 ◼ ► paying the price in the summer of 19 with Catalina was smart on Apple's part because they got to
01:28:40 ◼ ► clear the decks and make the chip transition, not the painful transition. I have no doubt that there
01:28:47 ◼ ► are tools and services that people use that don't work, but that I think now on the niche ends,
01:28:52 ◼ ► listen to David, who is our, our sort of music professor in the, in the discord said, there are
01:28:58 ◼ ► a lot of, uh, audio and music apps that don't work. Although I will say there are also a lot of
01:29:02 ◼ ► audio apps that claim they don't work, but they actually do work like isotope for the longest time
01:29:08 ◼ ► was like, you can't even run it on, on a big Sur, let alone on Apple Silicon. And it's like, well,
01:29:13 ◼ ► it runs on big Sur just fine. And it runs an Apple Silicon just fine, but there's a lot of like,
01:29:18 ◼ ► there's a lot of qualification stuff. And then there's the stuff that really doesn't work. And
01:29:25 ◼ ► Intel audio plugin in an app that was running on Apple Silicon, you had these very weird conflicts
01:29:30 ◼ ► and there's stuff like that. That's been kind of broken. So if you're in a particular niche, you
01:29:33 ◼ ► may have to face that. But, um, even there, I found with a lot of these professional tools,
01:29:43 ◼ ► And sometimes it's just not true. Sometimes it's just like, well, what I had somebody say,
01:29:48 ◼ ► well, I can't get an Apple Silicon Mac, or I can't upgrade to big Sur because isotope doesn't work in
01:29:53 ◼ ► it. And I said, well, I've been using isotope with big Sur for months now on and now on Apple Silicon
01:29:57 ◼ ► and it works fine. They're like, but the webpage says it doesn't work. I'm like, well, I don't know
01:30:00 ◼ ► what to tell you about their webpage. I just tried it and it worked. So it's okay with me.
01:30:05 ◼ ► I think it's one of the things that's made the M1 Mac so fantastic, at least for me is I don't
01:30:11 ◼ ► really think about the fact that it's doing something different. I just know that everything
01:30:16 ◼ ► it does is amazing. So it's like, it just feels so good to use. Like I, I, I'm really struggling
01:30:24 ◼ ► to kind of get my thoughts out about why I love my Mac Pro so much, but it just, everything just
01:30:34 ◼ ► feels nice to use in a way that I feel like I hadn't experienced on the Mac in a while. Like I,
01:30:40 ◼ ► I can't, I don't really know why this is the case, but when I sit down at my iMac, it doesn't feel
01:30:46 ◼ ► like the same experience as when I sit down with my MacBook Pro. And I'm, and I'm, I'm not completely
01:30:52 ◼ ► gotten around to understanding why that is yet, except to say that the M1 Macs are really very
01:31:00 ◼ ► special and cool. Yeah, they, they are. It's, it's a joy when I was traveling, I took it with me.
01:31:07 ◼ ► And when we went to our little vacation house for the weekend and it was great. It's just, yeah,
01:31:16 ◼ ► it's a pleasure. It's a pleasure to use. It's fast, even editing podcasts and de-noising things
01:31:26 ◼ ► If you would like to send in a question for us to answer on the show, you can tweet with the
01:31:37 ◼ ► which you can get access to. If you sign up for upgrade plus go to get upgrade plus.com
01:31:42 ◼ ► where you will get longer ad free episodes of upgrade every single week on today's upgrade.
01:31:47 ◼ ► Plus we talk about power, but not that kind electricity and planning for power outages and
01:32:01 ◼ ► we've reached the end. Now, my electricity provider sent me a letter in the mail last week
01:32:07 ◼ ► that said, dear Jason during upgrade, we're going to turn off your power probably. Yeah. And I,
01:32:12 ◼ ► I had to find ways of dealing with that. And now that we've reached the end, I'd be happy to say,
01:32:23 ◼ ► But if you'd like to hear a conversation we had about that and all the weird and wonderful ways
01:32:27 ◼ ► that that went go to getupgradeplus.com to sign up $5 a month, $50 a year, you get loads of great
01:32:34 ◼ ► stuff and you help support us and the show. I would also like to thank ExpressVPN, HelloFresh
01:32:40 ◼ ► and Spokes for their support of this episode. If you'd like to find Jason online, you can go to
01:32:44 ◼ ► sixcolors.com where you can find lots of wonderful articles from Jason, the incomparable.com for lots
01:32:50 ◼ ► of wonderful podcasts and here at Relay FM as well. Don't forget to go subscribe to Liftoff
01:32:55 ◼ ► at relay.fm/Liftoff to get their very special episode on, uh, later on this week with Ron Moore,
01:33:02 ◼ ► the creator of For All Mankind. I'm so excited to listen to that. If you'd like to find Jason
01:33:08 ◼ ► on Twitter as well, he's @JSNEL, J S N E double L. I am @imike, I M Y K E. If you'd like to find links
01:33:14 ◼ ► and information about this episode, it should be on your podcast app of choice, but if they're not,
01:33:18 ◼ ► go to relay.fm/upgrade/339. And we'll be back next week. Until then, say goodbye Jason Snell.