00:00:08 ◼ ► From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 245, and today's show is brought to you by ExpressVPN,
00:00:15 ◼ ► Lunar Display, and Pingdom. My name is Myke Hurley, and I am joined by Mr. Jason Snow. Hi, Jason Snow.
00:00:21 ◼ ► Hello, Mr. Myke Hurley, how are you? I'm very good. We've got a big action-packed show today. We've got
00:00:26 ◼ ► lots of things to talk about. So we should jump right in with our #snowtalk question that comes
00:00:31 ◼ ► from Doug, and Doug wants to know, "After hearing you discuss sandwiches last week, I'm curious, what
00:00:36 ◼ ► are your usual snacks for recording?" This is a very curious question to me. Yeah, yeah, well, so first off,
00:00:42 ◼ ► I very rarely have a snack while I'm recording. Basically not at all. I will often have a beverage,
00:00:49 ◼ ► I have tea during upgrade, and most of the things that I do in the morning in the, you know, afternoon
00:00:54 ◼ ► or evening, I might have a different beverage. Occasionally, so the idea here is you don't
00:01:01 ◼ ► really want to be eating when you're doing a podcast. You shouldn't be. Because even if you mute
00:01:05 ◼ ► while you're crunching on something, your mouth is in eating, I don't know, mode, and you can, like,
00:01:15 ◼ ► there are more mouth noises. You can tell that you just ate something. Yeah, it changes the way your
00:01:19 ◼ ► voice sounds. It does, it does, and so, and in fact, occasionally I have had to have food during, like,
00:01:28 ◼ ► an incomparable, where it's like, literally, I'm starving and there was no dinner, and then the
00:01:32 ◼ ► dinner happens just as I'm going in. I avoid that, but mostly it happens during Total Party Kill,
00:01:37 ◼ ► because we play for four hours, and I will eat my lunch during that, because you take turns and all
00:01:42 ◼ ► that, but when I'm listening back, I can tell, "Oh, I must have been eating lunch right here." I can tell,
00:01:48 ◼ ► because it sounds different. So when I'm doing things that are not extended Ridiculous Dungeons
00:01:52 ◼ ► and Dragons marathon episodes of Total Party Kill, I don't snack during podcasts. Just don't do it.
00:02:01 ◼ ► I do have a favorite snack for before I record these days. Oh, yes, what is that? I came across
00:02:08 ◼ ► this brand, this is not, hashtag not sponsored, called Brave. I don't know if this is just, like,
00:02:14 ◼ ► a UK thing or whatever, but they make roasted peas, and they do them in a bunch of really
00:02:20 ◼ ► interesting flavors, and it's just, like, a very nice, quick snack. I can't eat nuts, you see,
00:02:25 ◼ ► and these are very much like eating nuts, right? So, like, I'm a person who cannot eat nuts, because I
00:02:31 ◼ ► have an allergy, so this is just a thing that I've found recently that I really like, and I just
00:02:35 ◼ ► wanted to suggest it to people, if they, especially people that can't eat nuts, this has been, like, a
00:02:40 ◼ ► nice replacement for that type of thing for me, and I've been eating these recently, like, if I
00:02:48 ◼ ► this is a snack that will do that for me, right? Like, it will give me, it will kind of fill me up
00:02:54 ◼ ► a little bit. If you can't eat nuts, how do you know that eating roasted peas is like eating nuts?
00:03:03 ◼ ► it's something I've had for my entire life, yeah. Well, then I think you have credibility in this
00:03:07 ◼ ► area. Thank you. I know you're trying to get me on that one, but no, because I know what nuts
00:03:11 ◼ ► taste like, what the textures like, that kind of thing, and these are pretty close to that.
00:03:16 ◼ ► All right, that's good. Thank you to Doug for sending in that #snowtalk question. If you would
00:03:20 ◼ ► like to help open an episode of Upgrade, just send out a tweet with the hashtag #snowtalk,
00:03:23 ◼ ► and your question may be included for the future. We have some follow-up on cleaning AirPods.
00:03:28 ◼ ► So, we had Upgrading and Lonnie ask last week in Ask Upgrade, ask how we clean our AirPods,
00:03:35 ◼ ► and both me and Jason held up our hands and said that it was basically impossible to do so.
00:03:43 ◼ ► "How do we clean our AirPods?" And we're like, "I don't know, scrape this, do that, all of that."
00:03:48 ◼ ► And then a bunch of people wrote in, like a lot of people wrote in, to give the what is the right
00:03:55 ◼ ► solution. I just want to point out, we answered Lonnie's question because we do clean our AirPods
00:04:00 ◼ ► in weird ways, but this is the right solution, I think. I think this is the right answer.
00:04:06 ◼ ► So, many people wrote in with some form of silly putty or blue tack or white tack or whatever,
00:04:13 ◼ ► things of that nature, that tacky stuff that you would use to put a poster on the wall so you don't
00:04:33 ◼ ► Super gross, but you know, what are you going to do? Colin recommended a mascara brush,
00:04:39 ◼ ► which was a good, it seemed like a good option. I can imagine you getting in there and stuff.
00:04:44 ◼ ► And Jeremy recommended a toothbrush and compressed air. Compressed air fixes all Apple products.
00:04:58 ◼ ► just with compressed air. That's right. If you don't have any compressed air, just, you know,
00:05:01 ◼ ► just go, you know, really hard, just blow on the disk. I'm sure it'll be fine. I'm sure that'll fix
00:05:07 ◼ ► it. Big, and then just, you just put it back in again and it's fine. So yeah, so that is how you
00:05:13 ◼ ► can clean some AirPods. Thank you to all of our upgradeans who wrote in, especially all of you
00:05:18 ◼ ► who recommended some kind of tacky putty of some description. Now, Jason, I believe you
00:05:27 ◼ ► created follow out, follow out, which is the method of, uh, well, I popularized it. I think
00:05:37 ◼ ► that attribution and follow related topics is very important. So thank you for clarifying that.
00:05:44 ◼ ► Follow out is the method of which we will provide as if it's follow up, but for a show that isn't
00:05:50 ◼ ► this one. Uh, and Jason has a lot of follow out this week. Yeah. I guess I listened to podcasts
00:05:55 ◼ ► this week, so just topics that came up on other podcasts that I wanted to wanted to mention and,
00:06:05 ◼ ► uh, we're talking about, well, I was walking the dog as you do. I was listening live to the
00:06:09 ◼ ► live stream in the relay FM app while walking my dog. Um, and that was lovely. It was a lovely,
00:06:21 ◼ ► talking about aperture, right? You were talking about how aperture is officially deprecated won't
00:06:25 ◼ ► work with the next version of Mac OS, but people out there, I think was it you who said, yeah,
00:06:32 ◼ ► I requested listeners to write using aperture, explain yourself to tell me why you are using
00:06:37 ◼ ► aperture. Cause I was interested. I wanted to basically like, I wanted to see cause these things
00:06:44 ◼ ► you see, see, see something like, Oh, Apple's killing aperture. And then you can assume some
00:06:54 ◼ ► So I wanted to actually understand even listeners to connected who are going to be technologically
00:07:01 ◼ ► savvy and up to date people. Are they still using a piece of software, which is really outdated?
00:07:07 ◼ ► Cause I was keen to work that out and we heard from a lot of people and I gave them all their
00:07:11 ◼ ► moment to shine and read their messages. Yeah. Including a message about somebody's dad. Anyway,
00:07:18 ◼ ► it struck a chord with me because in working at Mac world for all of those years, we would get
00:07:23 ◼ ► letters from some of these people, maybe not particularly these people, but this, and I think
00:07:30 ◼ ► it's a, it was a really important lesson. I'm not sure what can be done about it, but I think it's,
00:07:34 ◼ ► it's, it provides a little perspective that maybe we lack sometimes because we are in a, I don't,
00:07:41 ◼ ► you know, I'm not trying to be negative about this, this, I don't mean this negatively,
00:07:45 ◼ ► but we are in a bubble in terms of people who are more tech savvy and it's not just the people who
00:07:49 ◼ ► are doing podcasts. It's people who are listening to podcasts, listening to tech specific podcasts,
00:07:54 ◼ ► especially, right? Like we are more tech savvy on the whole than the general population. And
00:08:01 ◼ ► sometimes you lose sight of that. Sometimes you lose sight of the fact that, well, all of my
00:08:05 ◼ ► friends do this with their computer. And you don't realize that your friends represent the top, like
00:08:12 ◼ ► 1% of users in terms of sophistication with that feature and that, you know, half of 1%, 10th of 1%
00:08:19 ◼ ► and that the vast majority of people don't do what you do. And it doesn't mean that what you do isn't
00:08:24 ◼ ► important. And it doesn't mean that if it's in a key area that Apple might not be concerned about
00:08:28 ◼ ► it if it's an Apple product, but it's an important perspective because Apple, you know, I think when
00:08:34 ◼ ► we talk about features coming and going and like ATP last week was talking about default apps and
00:08:41 ◼ ► we'll get to that, but it's this idea that Apple is designing for the masses and their priorities
00:08:48 ◼ ► are not necessarily your priorities for good reasons. And what flashed in my mind when you
00:08:56 ◼ ► guys were talking about this on connected is we used to get letters from people. So we would do
00:09:00 ◼ ► snow leopard would come out and we would start writing articles about all the new features in
00:09:06 ◼ ► snow leopard and how you could use them. And, you know, right, that was like that basic tech
00:09:12 ◼ ► journalism kind of job. Here's what's new. Here's how you use it. Here's what's changed. Here's,
00:09:17 ◼ ► did you know you could do this new thing? Gives us stuff to talk about for maybe a year, although
00:09:22 ◼ ► maybe not quite a year, which is why in those last few months, you're like, come on, WWDC, we need
00:09:26 ◼ ► new stuff to write about. And we would get letters every single time. So we're writing like snow
00:09:33 ◼ ► leopard, super guide, everything you need to know that snow leopard. And you get the letter
00:09:36 ◼ ► from somebody who says, why are you writing so much about snow leopard? I want you to write more
00:09:41 ◼ ► about tiger or leopard like one or two OS versions back. I'm still using that. Why aren't you writing
00:09:48 ◼ ► about that more? Why are you only writing about this new thing? Or do you get paid by Apple to
00:09:54 ◼ ► write about this new thing? And the response is, well, no, we have run out of things to write.
00:09:58 ◼ ► Like if you would like to see everything we've written about tiger, please go back two years in
00:10:04 ◼ ► your pile of magazines that you've saved and read those articles, but we have to move on. But I
00:10:11 ◼ ► think it's an important point that we have to move on. They don't have to move on. And in fact, I
00:10:18 ◼ ► think that users have a lot of users of technology are not like us where we're often driven forward
00:10:24 ◼ ► by wanting the latest and greatest and the newest thing and are willing to take the change along
00:10:28 ◼ ► with it. There are so many people who are users of technology who do not aggressively upgrade.
00:10:34 ◼ ► And I do think some of them listen to the podcast. I just think it's a smaller percentage. And you
00:10:38 ◼ ► got this with your people using Aperture and connected. They don't aggressively upgrade.
00:10:43 ◼ ► They don't aggressively buy new hardware. And at the top of it is they don't keep buying
00:10:57 ◼ ► story that we tell about how like, oh, well, you know, the IT department means that this company
00:11:04 ◼ ► isn't going to update to the new version because they've got their publishing software, they've got
00:11:08 ◼ ► their Adobe suite or whatever that they've qualified for this. And so everybody else has
00:11:12 ◼ ► moved to Mojave, but not the publishing company. They're still back two versions because of their
00:11:17 ◼ ► IT people. And there's truth to that sometimes, but people behave like that too, where they're
00:11:23 ◼ ► like, why would I update? Why would I break this thing? Why do I need to upgrade to a new version?
00:11:30 ◼ ► - Right? So why don't we talk about High Sierra more, Myke, is what I'm saying. I'm going to file
00:11:38 ◼ ► - I get this, I will get people ask me these questions too every now and then. And I think
00:11:43 ◼ ► really the reasoning for it is pretty simple. Or like the idea of like someone, you know,
00:11:48 ◼ ► people said like, oh, you know, you always buy the newest phone. Like it's kind of losing touch.
00:11:53 ◼ ► The reason is because ultimately people tune into this show to hear about the new stuff.
00:12:19 ◼ ► - And I just think that like, it needs, we need to keep moving forward to make sure we always have
00:12:26 ◼ ► the newest stuff to talk about. Of course it is very useful every now and then to look back and to
00:12:30 ◼ ► talk about something specific, right? Like if, especially if it's in the news, it's more easier
00:12:35 ◼ ► to do that. Like talking about Aperture, you know, like we took time a couple of episodes ago when
00:12:40 ◼ ► the news came out, like what was Aperture? Why was Aperture good? Right? Like, and you can frame it
00:12:45 ◼ ► that way. But really I think our jobs is to be as informed as we can about new stuff to help people
00:12:55 ◼ ► make decisions in their lives. - Sure. But I think it is, I think it's valuable while doing that to
00:13:00 ◼ ► have, because again, like I said, at Macworld, our answer was not, "Oh, you're right. We should write
00:13:04 ◼ ► more about Tiger." Our answer was, "That's not what we're here to do. We're here to write about
00:13:10 ◼ ► the new stuff." But to keep in mind, and I think it's just a useful reminder every year, it reminded
00:13:16 ◼ ► me, and I think this was a good example of it with the talk about Aperture, that a lot of people are
00:13:21 ◼ ► interested in the new stuff, but their philosophy, I think it's a very common tech philosophy is,
00:13:26 ◼ ► "I set on something, and then until I have to change, I'm just going to ride this out."
00:13:31 ◼ ► Because my computer works fine, the OS works fine. It, you know, if you don't upgrade your software
00:13:38 ◼ ► and you keep the same hardware, your computer basically doesn't get slower, right? What happens
00:13:43 ◼ ► is you keep upgrading and then you, and you're like, "Oh my God, it's so slow." But like,
00:13:46 ◼ ► it doesn't really get slower. You know, it gets slower in comparison, but it doesn't really get
00:13:54 ◼ ► system and four-year-old piece of software. It's probably actually an eight-year-old piece
00:13:58 ◼ ► of software, but you know, you got it four years ago. And you know which buttons to click,
00:14:03 ◼ ► and you've got all your files set up, and it all works. And that is, you know, people do that.
00:14:10 ◼ ► And I think what's interesting about this 32-bit apps getting deprecated, which is behind,
00:14:17 ◼ ► you know, not just Aperture, but a lot of stuff dying this fall, is it, this stuff is not dying
00:14:24 ◼ ► this fall, right? It just is a compatibility barrier being set up by Apple. So I think part
00:14:31 ◼ ► of this, and I've told this to people who are really worried about their stuff not working,
00:14:36 ◼ ► is keep an older computer around. Either buy a computer now that's capable of running Mojave,
00:14:41 ◼ ► because it'll run 32-bit apps for its lifetime as long as you stay on Mojave, or keep the computer
00:14:47 ◼ ► you're using now around and keep using Aperture, because Aperture is not going to time out
00:14:51 ◼ ► on, you know, on September 15th or October 1st or whenever they release the next version of macOS.
00:14:58 ◼ ► It's not. It'll still work. And there's nothing wrong with that. Also, I will remind people,
00:15:02 ◼ ► because a lot of people don't know this, that Apple for the last, I think, five years, six years,
00:15:08 ◼ ► has allowed virtualization of old versions of macOS on macOS. So it's not ideal, but like,
00:15:15 ◼ ► if you've got an old piece of software that you dearly love and you need, especially if you only
00:15:19 ◼ ► need it occasionally, because virtualization is slow, you can put that in a virtual machine
00:15:26 ◼ ► and run it on at least an Intel Mac for a long time, running 10.10, you know, whatever,
00:15:32 ◼ ► some old OS version with that piece of software you want. And it's allowed. It's allowed by Apple
00:15:38 ◼ ► on Apple hardware. So there are options out there. It's not as if, you know, Aperture is going to
00:15:45 ◼ ► turn into a pumpkin at the stroke of midnight. But this is a very clear case where people who
00:15:52 ◼ ► are relying on this workflow that they've built up, they're seeing that there's a wall coming,
00:15:58 ◼ ► there's a barrier coming, and that at this point, they're kind of locked in because now they can't
00:16:03 ◼ ► move forward and keep their old stuff. They can stay behind, but they know that at some point,
00:16:08 ◼ ► they're going to need to move forward. And I get that too. So I just think that this is part of
00:16:13 ◼ ► a weird part of the technology world. And it's worth, you know, putting in perspective that even
00:16:19 ◼ ► though we talk about the new stuff, there are definitely people out there who are interested
00:16:22 ◼ ► in hearing what's going on with the new stuff, but are also very happy to use this thing that
00:16:26 ◼ ► they've been using for five years and the way they've been using it. And they don't want to
00:16:30 ◼ ► change. And that's, you know, if Aperture works for you, you don't have to get rid of Aperture,
00:16:42 ◼ ► Let me do my second follow out. Is that okay? Can I do that now? Okay. I mentioned ATP earlier,
00:16:47 ◼ ► and this was a thing where I'm listening to Marco talk about the reminders update that is coming,
00:16:56 ◼ ► supposedly, that we talked about last week. And it was funny because Marco and I often agree. Like,
00:17:03 ◼ ► I feel like one of the reasons why Marco and I are not on more podcasts together is because I think
00:17:08 ◼ ► it would be kind of boring because we do agree so much on things. And I hear Marco say things. I'm
00:17:12 ◼ ► like, yep. Yeah, I don't need to say that now. Marco said it. But he said something that struck
00:17:16 ◼ ► me where he sort of characterized what we said is that we thought an update to make reminders
00:17:23 ◼ ► more useful would be okay to the third-party reminders to do ecosystem. And he thought it
00:17:29 ◼ ► would be much more destructive. And I'm not sure whether he kind of misunderstood what we said or
00:17:34 ◼ ► whether we just didn't say it clearly, but I thought it was worth clarifying at least a little
00:17:39 ◼ ► bit that, you know, when I talked earlier about how Apple's job is to make these default apps
00:17:44 ◼ ► appeal to 95% of users, like the masses, because so many people just use the default app of whatever
00:17:50 ◼ ► it is. I feel like there are two different scenarios there. And one of them is they do a bad
00:17:57 ◼ ► job and they ignore basic features that should be there. And what you get is a bunch of third-party
00:18:02 ◼ ► apps that build basic features to take advantage of Apple doing a bad job that Apple's not paying
00:18:07 ◼ ► attention or they blew it or they don't care. Sometimes Apple does a good job and they make
00:18:16 ◼ ► an app that has the basic features for 95%. And then third parties rush to fill the gap for the
00:18:21 ◼ ► people who want to do more than what Apple is willing to do in their pre-installed on every
00:18:27 ◼ ► device app. Also, I should say, sometimes Apple does a bad job and people do come in with a really
00:18:32 ◼ ► good app. It's not like only bad apps fill the gap. But I feel like those are the two scenarios.
00:18:38 ◼ ► And when Apple fixes one of its core apps to be okay, I think two different things happen. The
00:18:47 ◼ ► apps that just rushed in with an app that is, you know, fine, but really what it's trying to do is
00:18:53 ◼ ► fill the fact, replace the fact that Apple has done a bad job with basic functionality. And then
00:18:58 ◼ ► there are the apps that are really going beyond for what the power users want. And I think that's
00:19:02 ◼ ► the challenge here is if you're the first kind of app, yes, Apple becoming respectable with whatever
00:19:09 ◼ ► app it built is horrible for you because you were just trying to make a basic app that did things
00:19:16 ◼ ► that Apple failed at. If you were trying to make something that appeals to people who are going to
00:19:21 ◼ ► go above and beyond what the basic level is of whatever Apple develops, I feel like you're going
00:19:27 ◼ ► to be fine. You might have to adjust a little bit, but I feel like you're going to be fine because
00:19:36 ◼ ► there are users who look at it and go, "Hmm, but I want to do this," you know, very specific thing.
00:19:43 ◼ ► And there's probably an app that will do that. And that's, for me, I feel like that is the safest
00:19:49 ◼ ► third-party app place to be if you are in a category where Apple has an app is you do more.
00:20:08 ◼ ► most of the people that they are caring about are they want to hit the middle. They want to hit like
00:20:11 ◼ ► the masses. But there are also apps that are not that sophisticated and are just filling
00:20:20 ◼ ► a niche because Apple has completely failed at building a good app. And when Apple gets,
00:20:26 ◼ ► you know, finally realizes that that thing has to be fixed, those apps are in trouble. And
00:20:34 ◼ ► there's truth in that. That's true. I don't feel quite as bad for those apps as I do for the ones
00:20:41 ◼ ► that are about the edge cases because that is a good place to play if you're building an app
00:20:47 ◼ ► in a category with a default Apple app. So for reminders, like if there are any low-hanging fruit
00:20:53 ◼ ► features that Apple's going to take care of, yeah, if your whole app is about that stuff,
00:20:57 ◼ ► you're going to be in trouble. But I think so many task planning apps are about personal preference,
00:21:03 ◼ ► the ways people plan their tasks. They're going to go way beyond what Apple wants to do. Because,
00:21:09 ◼ ► you know, Apple's never going to make a super focused task planning app. They're going to make
00:21:21 ◼ ► Yeah, I think most of the applications that we talk about or think about that are considered
00:21:29 ◼ ► successful in this realm, like more than just to-do apps, but actual like getting things done
00:21:47 ◼ ► typical Notes apps were kind of would have felt the pain. But then there are these other types
00:21:53 ◼ ► of applications, the ones that we would use more, which like, oh, this is a markdown formatting
00:21:56 ◼ ► application. It's like, well, they probably weren't affected that much. Like there's tiers.
00:22:01 ◼ ► Reminders probably will have an effect, but I don't think it's going to affect any of the apps
00:22:11 ◼ ► and we know people who develop some of these apps, right? The other thing that happens is Apple says,
00:22:16 ◼ ► we're going to do these three things that we didn't do before. And the developers of the apps
00:22:20 ◼ ► go, hmm, that was kind of most of my value proposition were those three things, but there's
00:22:25 ◼ ► this fourth and fifth thing that I do that they don't do. And now I'm going to add this feature
00:22:29 ◼ ► that they also were not going to do because all of these Apple apps have gaps and weaknesses.
00:22:34 ◼ ► And the smart app developer, and again, you know that Apple is walking in this market and you know
00:22:43 ◼ ► that they may stomp on you and you have to dodge them. It's a tough place to be, but there are
00:22:50 ◼ ► always little places for apps to go because Apple's never going to make the app where everybody goes,
00:22:55 ◼ ► well, nobody ever needs another app, right? That it's not going to happen. So that's the challenge
00:23:01 ◼ ► for those developers is just to find the place where Apple is not fulfilling some part of the
00:23:07 ◼ ► market because the truth is going off a default app to a third-party app is a real niche thing.
00:23:13 ◼ ► It's why most people on iOS still use Apple Maps and not Google Maps. It's like, behold the power
00:23:18 ◼ ► of the pre-installed app that's called Maps. It's just, it's a thing. So you can find your place for
00:23:25 ◼ ► the people who desire more because quite honestly, those are the people searching in the app store
00:23:29 ◼ ► for an app to replace the default app because the default app hasn't satisfied them for some reason.
00:23:39 ◼ ► application, uh, maybe we're going to get, get into some of that in a minute about some of the
00:23:44 ◼ ► problems that can come when you look into these types of things. But before we do, let me thank
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00:25:41 ◼ ► So Jason, before we recorded today, there was a little bit of breaking news about Apple and the
00:25:48 ◼ ► Supreme Court. This is straight up something that I don't really understand. So I'm hoping that you
00:26:05 ◼ ► - Yeah, I think it's complicated just in the sense that it is leading a lot of places more than what
00:26:12 ◼ ► actually happened today as we record this. - Right, 'cause there wasn't like a ruling, like no one's
00:26:21 ◼ ► - This is an appeal that kicks it back to the lower courts. And so basically Apple is being
00:26:27 ◼ ► sued in an antitrust class action about Apple's control of the App Store. And this lawsuit was
00:26:37 ◼ ► thrown out on a lower court by saying that there is a precedent to not holding distributors
00:26:46 ◼ ► responsible for some of these controls. And that Apple said, "We are that, we are a distributor."
00:26:53 ◼ ► I'm simplifying it here, but we are a distributor of apps for developers. Developers sell them,
00:26:59 ◼ ► we distribute them, and therefore this doesn't apply to us. And it got appealed and the ninth
00:27:15 ◼ ► the liberal justices and one of the conservative justices who came together to form the five
00:27:22 ◼ ► vote majority, they kicked it back to the lower court and said, "Yes, it does apply to Apple.
00:27:27 ◼ ► Apple is a seller of apps, not a distributor of apps." And that means that this process is
00:27:35 ◼ ► gonna continue. Apple probably didn't expect that they would be in this. And because Apple has kind
00:27:42 ◼ ► of lost this battle over its claim that it's an intermediary and then couldn't be sued, it can
00:27:48 ◼ ► now be sued. And so the case will go forward in the federal courts, it will probably last a while.
00:27:53 ◼ ► What it does outside of like the details of this case is it's yet another pressure point on Apple
00:27:58 ◼ ► to possibly change its App Store policies in reaction to not just the suit, but increased
00:28:06 ◼ ► scrutiny that they've been getting from regulators, politicians, and presidential candidates. And
00:28:10 ◼ ► there's a question about like, will Apple try to make changes in order to get the heat off versus
00:28:19 ◼ ► also like there's a real open question about like, what might a court ruling be and might make them
00:28:26 ◼ ► do? A few possibilities that have occurred to me and that I've seen blow by in my Twitter stream
00:28:32 ◼ ► this morning. One of them is the idea simply of what if Apple introduced Gatekeeper for iOS like
00:28:39 ◼ ► they have on the Mac, where basically by default, you can only install things from the App Store,
00:28:44 ◼ ► but they allow, quote-unquote, "freedom" for the user of turning that off and letting you
00:28:50 ◼ ► sideload apps that you download elsewhere, presumably following Gatekeeper's model that
00:28:55 ◼ ► were still signed and notarized so that they would be kind of approved developers and apps from Apple,
00:29:04 ◼ ► outside of the App Store. It would be a much less pleasant process, but it might be a way for Apple
00:29:10 ◼ ► to say, you know, the bulk of users, like I was saying earlier, are going to just use the App
00:29:14 ◼ ► Store. But if you're somebody in a particular niche and you want to go off and have this
00:29:17 ◼ ► kind of inferior experience, but get this app over here, maybe we'll allow you to do that,
00:29:23 ◼ ► but it'll have to be from a verified developer and they've notarized their app or whatever.
00:29:27 ◼ ► They could do that. That would be a big change on one level. I think on another level, it wouldn't
00:29:32 ◼ ► probably change a whole lot for most iOS users, but it would be another vector for sleazy software
00:29:40 ◼ ► to get on iOS devices. However, somewhat under the ability for Apple to revoke certificates and
00:29:47 ◼ ► make those apps break if people are doing things that Apple doesn't like. Another option, which
00:29:53 ◼ ► is on the table, I think, is what if Apple changed their policy about outside links and payments
00:30:00 ◼ ► inside apps? This is the, you must use an in-app purchase rule, right? And Apple would still have
00:30:06 ◼ ► an advantage in that case because in-app purchase is super easy. All you're doing is basically
00:30:10 ◼ ► saying, yes, buy this, and it uses your Apple ID and your credit card that's on file. And if they
00:30:14 ◼ ► have to open a webpage and have you log into their website or put in your credit card and then tap
00:30:19 ◼ ► and then have it go back to the app, that would be less fun. However, they would save 30% on those
00:30:26 ◼ ► in-app purchases. And that would be a hit to Apple services revenue if you look at Netflix walking
00:30:32 ◼ ► away from doing subscriptions, which is not quite the same as a pure in-app purchase, but still
00:30:37 ◼ ► Netflix walked away and was like, "We don't want to share 15 to 30% with Apple." It would be
00:30:42 ◼ ► potentially a big hit, but Apple may be forced to go in that direction by this because that really
00:30:47 ◼ ► is Apple. You know, that's a great example of Apple saying, "No, no, no, we want all commerce
00:30:58 ◼ ► I think on the face of it, and again, this is all big legal stuff, so it is what it is, but
00:31:04 ◼ ► the way that you expressed it as like a seller or a vendor, I feel like it can't be argued that they
00:31:15 ◼ ► The level of control, yeah, it feels to me very much like, and again, we're not lawyers,
00:31:19 ◼ ► but it feels to me as an observer and as a user that Apple is the seller of the apps. Apple's
00:31:26 ◼ ► built the store, Apple is selling the apps, they're not just distributing them. And I would say also,
00:31:38 ◼ ► They have no information about customers, they don't get anything, particularly these days,
00:31:44 ◼ ► I think, other than just the ability to have their app on an iPhone. And I don't know what that,
00:31:59 ◼ ► And you're right, if they offered the ability for people, once again, to at least be able to
00:32:05 ◼ ► reference the fact and allow for a signup flow of their own in an application, that could go a long
00:32:10 ◼ ► way. But I mean, even for Apple, right, but that's still, you have to be a very specific type of
00:32:16 ◼ ► company. It's going to make a hit for them because it's going to be big publishers and big that go
00:32:21 ◼ ► and do it, but it's not going to be the be all, end all. I think there was a statistic that I can't
00:32:26 ◼ ► remember off the top of my head, but they actually called this out on the last earnings call, didn't
00:32:29 ◼ ► they, about the fact that none of the companies, they tried to, I think they tried to put investors
00:32:36 ◼ ► at ease to be like, oh, you know, it's only, no company, no one company holds more than X
00:32:46 ◼ ► It was a small percent of the app store revenue was like the largest one was less than 1% of the
00:32:52 ◼ ► app store revenue or something like that. And I think that was them kind of trying to be like,
00:32:56 ◼ ► oh, if, if people decide like to do what Netflix did, what Spotify has done, it's not going to wipe
00:33:02 ◼ ► out 20% of our revenue. I think that's what they were kind of trying to show. Right. But it was,
00:33:06 ◼ ► it was an interesting statistic for them to throw out. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, uh, I don't know. Um,
00:33:14 ◼ ► I think things can go weird. Uh, I, I take the larger view here that Apple is probably going to
00:33:20 ◼ ► have to revisit its approach to the app store now. Um, and not because it isn't working for them. I
00:33:25 ◼ ► think the app store that we've got now is because the app store was a hit. And we've said this a
00:33:30 ◼ ► bunch of times on this show that, um, one of the ways that the app store has been not as good as
00:33:36 ◼ ► it should be is because Apple didn't feel the need until, until really that moment where they put
00:33:42 ◼ ► Phil Shiller in charge of it. There was a long period there where Apple was like, look, it's a
00:33:46 ◼ ► hit. Don't mess with a hit. It's like, but there's, there's 50 things wrong with it that you should
00:33:51 ◼ ► fix. And I'm like, Hmm, but why? Cause it's great. And then finally they kind of got over that, but
00:33:58 ◼ ► I think Apple is reluctant to change its policies in this area because they don't know what the
00:34:03 ◼ ► fallout will be and it has worked for them spectacularly. And so they just kind of like
00:34:08 ◼ ► say, Nope, we're going to just keep these policies. And it's very rare that they change
00:34:11 ◼ ► something. This feels like a moment where because of political and legal pressure, Apple has more of
00:34:17 ◼ ► a motivation to revisit their approach to the app store. And although it could get weird in this area
00:34:23 ◼ ► too, my gut feeling is that this is overall probably going to be good for developers and users
00:34:29 ◼ ► because if Apple loosens up a little bit, because I can just see all sorts of areas where Apple's
00:34:36 ◼ ► policies make a worse user experience. And, you know, my go-to example is you should be able to
00:34:41 ◼ ► buy Kindle books in the Kindle app. You should be able to buy comics in the Comixology app.
00:34:52 ◼ ► I've been saying for a while that my understanding was that that basically eats all the profits. It
00:34:58 ◼ ► doesn't eat all their profits. It just eats most of their profits. And they've built a business on
00:35:03 ◼ ► taking, making money by taking the profit margin that's built into reselling a comic book or a book
00:35:17 ◼ ► podcast support in podcast apps is a great example where we know people who build podcast apps and
00:35:29 ◼ ► listeners. Relay does it. The Incomparable does it. It happens. But podcast, general interest
00:35:37 ◼ ► podcast apps are very reluctant to do anything involving a link to somebody asking for money
00:35:44 ◼ ► because potentially anything, even like me putting a link in my show notes saying support
00:36:00 ◼ ► sending somebody to the web for money, which is not allowed. So there are lots of things that
00:36:05 ◼ ► could get better if Apple changed its rules and some of these rules feel more Apple just trying
00:36:14 ◼ ► to skim money out of the system than Apple making a reasonable exchange in terms, you know, in
00:36:21 ◼ ► exchange for some user features. And again, I believe that in-app purchases and Apple's
00:36:27 ◼ ► payment system would still remain popular in apps if they allowed other approaches because
00:36:38 ◼ ► But there would also probably be apps that who would opt out and they would make it much more
00:36:45 ◼ ► unpleasant for their users. But the same time you would hope that the market would then say this app
00:36:51 ◼ ► isn't very good because they make you go through this ridiculous system in order to buy things and
00:36:54 ◼ ► this app is good because it's easy. But you know, giving the developers the choice and giving better
00:37:05 ◼ ► like I think that could be good. I think making Apple revisit some of these rules and back down
00:37:11 ◼ ► on some of them, my feeling is we'll have the net effect of being good for everybody except maybe
00:37:16 ◼ ► Apple and maybe not as bad to Apple as they are afraid of. So last week on the show when talking
00:37:22 ◼ ► about the iPhone sales and some of the changes that are going on at Apple retail, we theorized
00:37:28 ◼ ► that maybe Angela Arendt's departure from Apple was because of some kind of culture clash, right?
00:37:34 ◼ ► About the way her vision was and then maybe clearly how the company is changing in the stores.
00:37:40 ◼ ► Then last Tuesday, Mark Gurman and Matthew Townsend at Bloomberg published a report that
00:37:44 ◼ ► actually dives into this as a thing. So the article itself details some customer experiences
00:37:49 ◼ ► at the Apple store which have changed, right? It's the color on the article, people complaining.
00:37:53 ◼ ► And again, it's like with anything, we talk about this all the time, especially with reports like
00:38:02 ◼ ► - Yeah, you can get a man on the street to complain about whatever subject you're writing about. I'll
00:38:07 ◼ ► just say from a journalism standpoint, I look at these articles and I think, well, this user was
00:38:12 ◼ ► offended by this thing that happened in an Apple store. I'm like, that tells me nothing. I'm sorry
00:38:16 ◼ ► that they had a problem, but it literally the best and worst retail store you could get that same
00:38:26 ◼ ► - The employees that they speak to, I think very clearly are employees with access to grind, right?
00:38:34 ◼ ► - Exactly, right? So like people are upset about who've worked at the Apple store forever,
00:38:42 ◼ ► I think there was some interesting information to glean from this article, maybe to add a little
00:38:47 ◼ ► bit more color and perspective around what happened when all of a sudden Angela Ahrens left. So
00:38:54 ◼ ► the article references that they spoke to employees who say that the stores have become
00:38:59 ◼ ► too much of a branding exercise for the company and that the overall quality of the staff that
00:39:04 ◼ ► they employ is slipping. So I think you can understand this. As the Apple store has expanded,
00:39:12 ◼ ► the idea of the Apple store and more stores, they can't only hire the very best applicants.
00:39:19 ◼ ► They need more people, right? They need lots of people. So it's not gonna be like your friendly
00:39:26 ◼ ► neighborhood tech nerds all the time. Like that just feels like a natural thing. However,
00:39:30 ◼ ► when you think about it now, like why would they put the HR chief in charge of retail? Well,
00:39:37 ◼ ► this would be why. Because apparently, Deidre O'Brien is gonna be putting a lot of focus on
00:39:43 ◼ ► how they recruit and then how they train their employees in the hopes that this will try and
00:39:48 ◼ ► make the overall Apple store experience better. It is also worth noting, and I think this is
00:39:54 ◼ ► important, that even many of the people that they spoke to said that Ahrens wasn't the root cause
00:40:00 ◼ ► for this, but these things worsened under her tenure. Like before Angela Ahrens joined the
00:40:04 ◼ ► Apple store, a lot of the complaints we have about the Apple store now still existed. Like the lines
00:40:09 ◼ ► were too long. All of that kind of stuff was happening before. Or that it was confusing and
00:40:17 ◼ ► Ron Johnson's era. That has been an issue. But it has been exacerbated, but they were all still
00:40:21 ◼ ► there. I think what we said at the time when she left was that, I mean, my feeling at the time was
00:40:27 ◼ ► she did what she was hired to do. And when we talked last week about the idea that Apple is now
00:40:33 ◼ ► really stepping up its sales, this really dovetails. That's why I was kind of tickled by the fact that
00:40:38 ◼ ► this article came out Tuesday. I was like, "Oh, good, Myke. We were ahead on this one. We were
00:40:42 ◼ ► talking about it." And then this article dropped because the idea that, you know, they brought in
00:40:46 ◼ ► Angela Ahrens to talk about, you know, it's supposed to be an experience and it's supposed
00:40:50 ◼ ► to be branding. And it's not supposed to be about fixing your problem and checking you out with your,
00:40:59 ◼ ► you know, purchase and all of those things like that. We want a luxury experience. We want it to
00:41:03 ◼ ► be an experience. We've got a grove. We've got trees. We want people. It's all about branding
00:41:08 ◼ ► and the Apple experience. And, you know, my feeling is that even when they hired her, that was probably
00:41:16 ◼ ► a mistake, but certainly it has been borne out over the last few years that that was a mistake.
00:41:24 ◼ ► - Well, why did they hire her? She was a CEO at Burberry, right? So they had to hire her away
00:41:28 ◼ ► with a pitch about like, "We have this powerful retail. It's the most profitable brand. It's more
00:41:41 ◼ ► - They had an idea of where they wanted the stores to go. You know, again, a quote from the
00:41:45 ◼ ► article that her goal was to make Apple stores more like luxury showrooms, pushing offstage
00:41:50 ◼ ► the unseemingly business of checking out and fielding complaints. Like, and that's what she
00:41:55 ◼ ► did. I mean, the stores are more like that. - Yeah, that's what she was hired to do. The problem
00:42:00 ◼ ► is that they need to sell product. We now live in an era where Apple really actually needs to sell
00:42:04 ◼ ► their products, not just let them sell themselves. And that they, Apple, look, Apple got high on its
00:42:09 ◼ ► own supply here a little bit, right? Where they're like, "Oh, we're Apple. We don't need to do
00:42:13 ◼ ► anything." And it's like, no, actually having all of these stores in all of these places,
00:42:17 ◼ ► you are on the front lines. Your retail employees are on the front lines of fixing broken things.
00:42:22 ◼ ► And I feel like the battery thing really just brought it to a head, which is like, "Oh my God,
00:42:26 ◼ ► our branding exercises somehow are not able to deal with a massive number of people who have
00:42:31 ◼ ► a battery they want to replace." And that was, for me, that was like that final moment of a clash,
00:42:36 ◼ ► which is we're not capable. I mean, well, they were capable, but like, we're not prepared to be
00:42:42 ◼ ► the battery replacement shop because we are here for branding and to teach classes and not to sell
00:42:49 ◼ ► products and replace products. And when you talk to people about their complaints about the Apple
00:42:54 ◼ ► store, what they very rarely say is, "It wasn't a nice experience. I like to go there and look
00:43:00 ◼ ► at the stuff and it's pretty and all of that." It's like, you know, they did a good job. Apple
00:43:04 ◼ ► store, Apple stores are pretty. The flagship ones are gorgeous. Apple stores are more beautiful now
00:43:11 ◼ ► than they have ever been. I mean, and I think that that is something about Angela Ahrens' time,
00:43:15 ◼ ► like the most that they took. Apple stores have always been beautiful, but I think they took an
00:43:20 ◼ ► incredible step forward in that. And I personally appreciate that. The problem is that you want,
00:43:26 ◼ ► in the end, they need to be places, and the people who are complaining are saying this,
00:43:30 ◼ ► they need to be places where, "I just want to buy a case. I just want to buy a cable." And they can
00:43:35 ◼ ► do a little bit of like, "Well, maybe you should just do it online or order it online and then come
00:43:38 ◼ ► pick it up." But it's like, they don't really want to do that. I have a broken thing. I need you to
00:43:44 ◼ ► fix my broken thing. I had an experience last week at my retail store where there was a product
00:43:48 ◼ ► recall on the UK power plug adapter. And it said, "We're not going to, basically, we're not going to
00:43:56 ◼ ► send you one. You need to go to an Apple store and exchange your old one for the new one." And I have
00:44:00 ◼ ► the universal or the international kit. So I wanted to get that done while I was thinking about it.
00:44:05 ◼ ► And they click on a link and they say, "You need to make an appointment. And here are available
00:44:08 ◼ ► appointments." And I went in and the guy sat me down and said, "Well, let me go see if we have one."
00:44:16 ◼ ► And I thought to myself, "Wait a second. Why would you not be sure if you're making me come here?"
00:44:25 ◼ ► And that was just one example of like, I mean, and they did have one and it was fine, but it's like,
00:44:29 ◼ ► why is that even a question? And that's the thing is, as this article says, it's kind of the
00:44:42 ◼ ► at an Apple store where you just want to buy a thing. And then you stand there with the thing
00:44:46 ◼ ► and you're like, "Hello, somebody, can I buy this?" I mean, you literally can buy it in the
00:44:49 ◼ ► Apple store app. They kind of want you to just use the app and check yourself out because they
00:44:54 ◼ ► really don't want to deal with you, which is sending a message, even though it's convenient.
00:44:57 ◼ ► And if you never want to talk to a soul, you can go into an Apple store and buy a lot of stuff
00:45:01 ◼ ► and walk out and never talk to somebody. And that's great. But what if you aren't comfortable
00:45:08 ◼ ► idealized brand thing. And that's, so this article, I think, makes clear what many of us
00:45:16 ◼ ► already suspected, which is like, this is not really Angela Ahrens' fault as much as I think
00:45:22 ◼ ► it is the people who thought that Angela Ahrens was the person to take the Apple store in the
00:45:27 ◼ ► direction it needed to go. And that direction was even more luxury. And if I have to point out
00:45:32 ◼ ► a moment that seems to be the key moment of making mistakes at Apple in the last few years,
00:45:41 ◼ ► it is that moment of Apple deciding that it's a luxury brand and making a gold watch and having
00:45:49 ◼ ► the CEO of Burberry rebrand all of their stores. Because it seems like that was Apple losing what
00:46:02 ◼ ► I think that the watch did bring with it one of their better store experiences, which was to try
00:46:10 ◼ ► And yet today we hear, like last week, there was on Twitter, Marco and Tiff Arment went into an
00:46:15 ◼ ► Apple store and they were like touching a display Apple watch and were yelled at and said, "Don't
00:46:30 ◼ ► Exactly. Right. So there's a bunch of stuff going on here with Apple retail, but it is not
00:46:37 ◼ ► surprising that basically they thought Apple retail, the execs who hired Ahrens went in one
00:46:44 ◼ ► direction and then I think it became clear over the course of several years that that was actually
00:46:48 ◼ ► the wrong direction to take the Apple store. And while there's a lot of good stuff at Apple stores,
00:46:52 ◼ ► they have done a bad job. They're being measured on things that are not the things they should get
00:47:00 ◼ ► measured on. And my guess is that Deidre O'Brien is going to be... That's one of her big challenges
00:47:06 ◼ ► is how do we measure the stores based on these other metrics, which are not... And if I was an
00:47:11 ◼ ► employee, I'd be frustrated because I experienced this as a manager. Sometimes the business changes
00:47:16 ◼ ► and you say, "Okay, I know up to now you've been working on this and this is how we measure
00:47:20 ◼ ► success, but as of tomorrow, we measure success differently. And now we have to work on this to
00:47:25 ◼ ► measure success." And if you're an employee being told that the thing that you've really chugged on
00:47:34 ◼ ► employee is no longer valuable, not only does that invalidate all the work you've done up to
00:47:40 ◼ ► that point, but now you're being told you need to do something different, which means you need to
00:47:43 ◼ ► change how you work, change your value system, that's brutal. And as that goes on at Apple
00:47:48 ◼ ► Retail, you're going to get quotes from Apple Retail people who are frustrated because of
00:47:53 ◼ ► course they are. - Yeah, because I mean, first you have people annoyed that they got rid of the
00:47:58 ◼ ► Genius Bar and now you're going to get people more annoyed that the reason that they got rid of the
00:48:03 ◼ ► Genius Bar now has to change as well, because then it's kind of like, "Ha ha, I told you."
00:48:07 ◼ ► And I get it, right? But that's why, as you say, there are people with access to grind.
00:48:11 ◼ ► But I feel pretty, at this point, when Aaron's departed, it was a surprise. I feel like it's
00:48:19 ◼ ► completely clear now. I think it's completely clear. - Right, and it's not the job she was
00:48:23 ◼ ► hired to do and it's not in her area of expertise. - And I think that was why it was such an amicable
00:48:27 ◼ ► but also fast split, because it was just like, "Well..." - "We need to go in a new direction.
00:48:36 ◼ ► Yep. - Another Bloomberg report that I want to touch on is from Mark Gurman and Debbie Wu.
00:48:42 ◼ ► Basically, so this report is about Taiwan Semiconductor starting to manufacture the A13
00:48:52 ◼ ► - Headline-wise, why would you read it? Of course they are, right? This is not an exciting
00:48:58 ◼ ► report, but there's some little details in it, which are interesting. And it's not necessarily
00:49:04 ◼ ► stuff that's new, but it's stuff that's interesting to see reported again, maybe in slightly different
00:49:10 ◼ ► ways. Right? So this is an expected story. We all know that the next chip will be the A13.
00:49:16 ◼ ► We know it needs to be made in advance and it's coming in September. Right? That's obvious.
00:49:21 ◼ ► So I read some quotes from the article. Apple also makes specialized chips for Macs and is working on
00:49:28 ◼ ► a main Mac processor to eventually replace those supplied by Intel. This is one of those things
00:49:33 ◼ ► where it's like, okay, so we all believe this to be the case, but it's not often said. And like,
00:49:41 ◼ ► what are either Gurman or Wu saying here? Do they know this to be the case? Are they saying
00:49:53 ◼ ► - Is working on a main Mac processor. The way I choose to read that phrasing is that Apple is
00:50:00 ◼ ► working with Taiwan Semiconductor probably on samples that it hasn't gone into production,
00:50:08 ◼ ► but they have talked to them about a different ARM processor version, a variation or whatever it is
00:50:16 ◼ ► that will be used on the Mac, but that this is not like, they're not producing it now for the fall.
00:50:24 ◼ ► But they are working on something with Apple, which is, again, something that we kind of
00:50:29 ◼ ► suspected, but I read this as being, they have gotten some confirmation from Taiwan Semiconductor
00:50:39 ◼ ► - It seems like it's come back around again, right? Like whoever told them about the A13 was like,
00:50:52 ◼ ► but they're also in the process of ramping up for variations, like an A13X for an iPad and an
00:51:08 ◼ ► it's about the extensions to A13 that will be done after we start ramping up the iPhone
00:51:16 ◼ ► of products, right? Like there's more than just the one chip and within a year, as you say,
00:51:23 ◼ ► scenario is that the A13 is not only the processor for the iPhone, but it's also the beginning of a
00:51:28 ◼ ► family where we, and we know that because they always do the X version that has some different
00:51:34 ◼ ► kind of technology on it that fits the specs of an iPad better. And then you can imagine they,
00:51:42 ◼ ► I don't see why they couldn't either use the X chip for the Mac or they could use another variant,
00:51:46 ◼ ► like I said, like an A13M. And I just made that up, but that's not unreasonable to say,
00:51:52 ◼ ► here's our processor generation. And that may be how Apple handles the processor generations
00:52:08 ◼ ► - It's also planning other new types of chips, including a cellular modem for making calls and
00:52:14 ◼ ► connecting to the internet and power components based on a recent deal with dialogue semiconductor.
00:52:26 ◼ ► We're gonna need you to make modems. Get ready for that. This sounds like even further off,
00:52:34 ◼ ► - We now have the patent access as well. So you can do whatever you want because we had to buy
00:52:41 ◼ ► We're working on chips. We want you to help us with some references there. And eventually we're
00:52:45 ◼ ► gonna need you to make these for us too. And they're like, all right, great. And so that's
00:52:50 ◼ ► a little further off, but also they're happy to do it, right? It's more business from this
00:52:59 ◼ ► and starts talking about iPhone cameras and gives a detail that has yet, in my opinion, to be so
00:53:07 ◼ ► explicitly given. So a third camera on the high-end iPhone models will have an ultra wide angle lens
00:53:14 ◼ ► to produce larger and more detailed photos. It will also enable a broader range of zoom.
00:53:19 ◼ ► Like I feel like at this point, what the third camera was gonna do had been in a bit of contention.
00:53:25 ◼ ► This seems to be the clearest kind of mentioning of this and also is the one that makes the most
00:53:33 ◼ ► sense. - So it's wide, regular, and zoom lenses on the back. And then with an interface where you
00:53:41 ◼ ► basically can slide it across it, which is what they mean by broader range of zoom, because now
00:53:46 ◼ ► you can go back all the way to the wide and then through the normal one and then into the telephoto
00:53:50 ◼ ► one. - Exactly. The three camera system will only be on the, what will be 11 and 11 max, I guess.
00:54:04 ◼ ► but that will have increased zoom as well. So I'm intrigued about what that means. Maybe like the
00:54:10 ◼ ► broader range of zoom, potentially the telephoto lens might be able to do more now, I guess,
00:54:15 ◼ ► right? Like that actually might be something that can provide a closer zoom than before. If the 10R
00:54:21 ◼ ► is gonna have increased zoom, right? You would expect, if there's only gonna be two cameras,
00:54:35 ◼ ► - Half a millimeter, or about half a millimeter. - Can you imagine, sorry, half a millimeter,
00:54:38 ◼ ► but still though, thicker phones, it's interesting. And that the back camera array will fit into a
00:54:44 ◼ ► square on the top left. Mark Gurman then tweeted an image to some like, basically, plates,
00:54:56 ◼ ► - Yeah, he said this is a mold that is floating around and it's unclear what that exactly means.
00:55:04 ◼ ► let's call it that. The camera bump now a sensor square. Also, at one point, the consensus was that
00:55:11 ◼ ► the XS Max equivalent would get the third camera, but that the XS wouldn't. And that's not the case
00:55:20 ◼ ► in this report. This report says they will both get it. - That's when you start looking at like,
00:55:25 ◼ ► okay, so in the past, we've also heard that this third camera might be used for better AR room
00:55:31 ◼ ► sensing, right? So what if somehow the Max phone has a different type of sensor that can allow that
00:55:40 ◼ ► as well, right? Like that's where it's kind of, there's been a lot of backwards and forwards about
00:55:45 ◼ ► what the cameras are gonna be for compared to what Bloomberg said and what Min-Chi Kuo is saying.
00:55:51 ◼ ► But this is, I think, at least for the back camera system, this feels like the most up to date and
00:55:57 ◼ ► complete version of history that also makes the most sense. I would be really surprised if Apple
00:56:04 ◼ ► does not have a wide angle lens on the next iPhone because all of their competitors are doing it.
00:56:15 ◼ ► - So that's all wide angle all the time. But yeah. - So get ready for the sensor square, everybody.
00:56:29 ◼ ► - Or you rolled a five, I don't know. Two of the dots are little and three of them are big.
00:56:34 ◼ ► But yeah, it's, we'll see. - I feel like at this point, maybe it shouldn't be on one of the corners.
00:56:41 ◼ ► I feel like it's getting too big to live on the corner. - I don't know. I mean, it's all in the
00:56:46 ◼ ► execution, right? I'm sure it'll look good, but it is, yeah. This is the case where Apple's got
00:56:51 ◼ ► its beautiful design principles and then it's got to put these ugly sensors somewhere and you
00:56:54 ◼ ► get a notch and you get a sensor square. - Yeah, we'll see, we'll see. But there you go.
00:57:00 ◼ ► And what appeared to just be an article about chips being made. There's a couple of extra
00:57:04 ◼ ► details in there. Always pay close attention. Today's episode is brought to you by our friends
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00:59:44 ◼ ► I don't have the Logitech Slim Folio because I know I won't like that product. Your review
00:59:50 ◼ ► confirmed that for me. But even when Federico was telling me about it and Federico likes it,
00:59:54 ◼ ► I know it's not for me. I just, I know. But I had assumed that the Bridge would be for me.
01:00:03 ◼ ► It is. And we can talk about in a little bit why. But I will say Bridge, they sent me this
01:00:10 ◼ ► in advance. They sent me one of the kind of like the first production models like they did for you.
01:00:15 ◼ ► I have purchased the 11 inch one myself and that will come at some point. I'm very excited for that
01:00:22 ◼ ► to arrive too because I'm keen to see what that's going to be like. But yeah, they did send me one.
01:00:27 ◼ ► So I just want to set it up front. And again, I think Logitech and Bridge both sent you yours,
01:00:33 ◼ ► So I'm keen because you published two reviews. I'm keen to kind of get into a little bit of
01:00:40 ◼ ► comparison between the two of them. And I have a few areas that I would like to get your
01:00:46 ◼ ► feeling on. It's like kind of like a versus like what what and which category does each product
01:00:59 ◼ ► which has the better design? Okay, it's all in the eye of the beholder. I think the Bridge
01:01:05 ◼ ► design is better because the Bridge is made with anodized aluminum. It matches the back of the
01:01:13 ◼ ► iPad Pro. It matches the sides of the iPad Pro. It matches the design of the iPad Pro. So you make a
01:01:20 ◼ ► little sandwich basically where the Bridge is one piece of bread and the iPad Pro is the other piece
01:01:26 ◼ ► of bread. And they're designed similarly and they come together to make this laptop when they're
01:01:30 ◼ ► closed and the metal finish matches. It is, you know, so I like that it matches and I like that
01:01:38 ◼ ► design. The Logitech matches the one of my least things about least favorite things about the iPad
01:01:48 ◼ ► Pro, which is the featureless gray of its cases. It's basically a kind of featureless gray expanse.
01:01:59 ◼ ► The keyboard is gray plastic with a gray plastic surrounding it. It's just gray. And it's a whole
01:02:07 ◼ ► case as well, isn't it? The Logitech one. You can't just, it's not just a keyboard. It's like
01:02:13 ◼ ► a whole thing that you have to put the iPad in. It's a front and back and you have to sort of snap
01:02:19 ◼ ► the, you slide the bottom into this rubberized bottom on the Logitech and then there are two
01:02:25 ◼ ► edges that you kind of have to lift or push and they go over the edges of the iPad. And then the
01:02:30 ◼ ► iPad is kind of being held in that back plate and then there's the keyboard and then you carry it
01:02:36 ◼ ► around like that. So it's not any heavier. It's actually a couple of millimeters lighter than the
01:02:41 ◼ ► Bridge, but it's this wraparound thing that turns your whole iPad into a featureless gray plasticy
01:02:50 ◼ ► device. So I think, I mean, the Bridge Pro is so much more sleek in its design and matching with
01:03:02 ◼ ► the iPad. I think from a design perspective, like from a visual perspective, it is, I think the
01:03:08 ◼ ► Bridge would definitely looks better, but the Smart Folio has additional functionality, right?
01:03:15 ◼ ► So like if you're thinking about it from a design perspective, it's not just about the way that it
01:03:18 ◼ ► looks, but the way that it works. And with it being a full on case, it has stuff that I think
01:03:24 ◼ ► is quite clever about like it can hold the Apple Pencil in place, right? Like the kind of the thing
01:03:28 ◼ ► that goes over to keep the whole case closed. It also can then hold the Apple Pencil, which is like,
01:03:33 ◼ ► okay, that's nice. It's true. It can hold because it's got this magnetic flap that can flap down in
01:03:38 ◼ ► front of your screen, which is annoying. But if you flap it, if you fold it back, it will hold
01:03:43 ◼ ► magnetically open and therefore not get in your way. But yes, you've got, not only can you slide
01:03:47 ◼ ► the pencil in there, so it's super secure, but even if you just put the pencil on the charging
01:03:51 ◼ ► thing and then fold this over when it's closed, it's not going to get brushed off and fall out
01:03:57 ◼ ► in your bag or whatever. That is definitely an advantage. It's got, I would say probably better
01:04:01 ◼ ► protection. Bridge comes with a magnetic back plate, basically, that you just attach and it
01:04:10 ◼ ► makes it look kind of like a weird, some other company's laptop because it's covering the
01:04:14 ◼ ► Sideways Apple logo at that point. But it does give it some back protection for those who are
01:04:18 ◼ ► concerned about that. Yeah, I think it's a nice addition, but that's not for me. Yeah, I've been
01:04:24 ◼ ► using it some, but other times I just don't bother putting it on because I don't care. But sometimes
01:04:30 ◼ ► I do. When I'm taking it out or I'm putting it in the bag, I kind of like the fact that there's a
01:04:34 ◼ ► little extra layer and it's magnetic, so it's just not that big a deal. But yeah, the Logitech has
01:04:38 ◼ ► more stuff going on because it's got that whole back shell. And the other kind of like design
01:04:44 ◼ ► feature that it's got is it only is active when it's docked in typing position. So basically
01:04:52 ◼ ► there's a magnet and when it docks in typing position, that's what turns it on. Whereas with
01:04:57 ◼ ► the bridge, you do have to like turn, I mean, if you want to control it, you have to turn it on and
01:05:02 ◼ ► off. It will auto wake and things like that. Yeah, or you have to like, you know, you find yourself
01:05:07 ◼ ► hitting the space bar a couple of times for the keyboard and, you know, for everything to kind of
01:05:11 ◼ ► like connect again. But it seems like the Logitech, it does it itself with quite a clever system,
01:05:17 ◼ ► right? Like it kind of wakes up the Bluetooth, you know, and then it's ready to go. Yeah,
01:05:21 ◼ ► what's funny about it though is that it is, the concept is essentially the same as when the
01:05:27 ◼ ► smart connector was on the side of the iPad. It's essentially they didn't want to change their
01:05:33 ◼ ► concept. So you're basically docking your iPad where the smart connector would attach to the
01:05:39 ◼ ► keyboard, except now that it's just a magnetic latch. So that's them recycling, I think,
01:05:44 ◼ ► their design from previous cases. It's super weird to me. And it leads to a whole bunch of other
01:05:49 ◼ ► design issues. I would argue these are design issues, which is you can't adjust the angle.
01:05:54 ◼ ► There's only the one angle for the screen. Because it's docking in the middle of that plane that the
01:05:59 ◼ ► keyboard sits on, it means that there's a bunch of stuff behind there. You know, that's not how
01:06:04 ◼ ► laptops are shaped. Laptops aren't shaped where there's a flat plane and then somewhere sort of
01:06:08 ◼ ► two-thirds of the way up past the keyboard, there's another angle that comes out of it.
01:06:12 ◼ ► They hinge at the back. And that's not what the Logitech case does, which means it's a little,
01:06:17 ◼ ► I mean, it means it's closer to your eyes and the keyboard, which is nice. But the downside of that
01:06:22 ◼ ► is also that there's this whole extra stuff behind it that is sitting there and it kind of flaps
01:06:27 ◼ ► around and it's not as stable, I think, when you type. Whereas the Brydge keyboard, you can adjust
01:06:33 ◼ ► it to pretty much any angle, like a laptop. And that's the, you know, I think that's a design flaw,
01:06:40 ◼ ► honestly, of the Logitech. Yeah, the angleability of the Brydge is one of my very favorite features
01:06:48 ◼ ► about this in general, right? I like that I can sit with it in laptop position, but I can also have
01:06:55 ◼ ► it basically like completely perpendicular to each other, right? Like it's just like a big flat plane
01:07:00 ◼ ► if I wanted to like lay down and like just have it on my knees, right? And it's like, it's one of the
01:07:06 ◼ ► reasons I love the Brydge in the first place. And it's probably the thing that I found most
01:07:11 ◼ ► frustrating about the Smart Folio, right? It has one effective position. I mean, this, it has two
01:07:17 ◼ ► positions, but they're not that different from each other, really. Like they're still only
01:07:21 ◼ ► pretty much met for desk environments. Right, there's only one good one. Sure, sure. And the
01:07:28 ◼ ► Logitech seems to have that same, you know, that same kind of problem. If that angle works for you
01:07:33 ◼ ► and the keyboard, you know, I think its keyboard is comparable to the Brydge, it might be, I might
01:07:38 ◼ ► like the feel of it slightly better, but they're basically both fine keyboards, better than Apple's
01:07:44 ◼ ► current laptop keyboards. The Brydge one is nice because the, it's got a, you know, it's on the
01:07:50 ◼ ► aluminum shell, whereas the Logitech one, like I said, is just sort of plastic, so it doesn't
01:07:53 ◼ ► look as nice. I do think fundamentally the biggest difference between the two models is that the
01:08:01 ◼ ► Brydge, because it's based on those two clips that go in the corners of the iPad, you basically slide
01:08:07 ◼ ► it in and it's a laptop and slide it back out and it's a tablet again. And Logitech wants you to snap
01:08:13 ◼ ► your iPad in this holding case and make it a laptop, which if you are somebody who primarily
01:08:21 ◼ ► uses your iPad as a laptop, that's better, right? And you can still take off, you know, pull off
01:08:28 ◼ ► those corners and pull it out and use it as a tablet again. But I think if you're using it for
01:08:33 ◼ ► extended periods of time in laptop configuration, that's not a big issue. For me, that's a deal
01:08:39 ◼ ► breaker essentially, because I never want to commit to using my tablet as a laptop for that
01:08:46 ◼ ► length of time. I always, even with the Brydge keyboard, like when I'm writing, if I go in the
01:08:51 ◼ ► backyard to write an article, I will slide the iPad into the Brydge keyboard, go out back,
01:08:56 ◼ ► write the article, come back in, pull it right back out. I'm done. Like that, I only want it for that
01:09:00 ◼ ► instance. And that's the great thing about that Brydge keyboard is it's a laptop in seconds,
01:09:05 ◼ ► and then it's a tablet again in seconds. And Logitech wants you to commit to being in laptop
01:09:10 ◼ ► configuration for longer. And that just doesn't, that ultimately that doesn't work for me. And I
01:09:15 ◼ ► get that other people like Federico might feel different about that. I love that USB-C exists.
01:09:23 ◼ ► This is like one of the great reasons for USB-C. I now don't need two different cables if I need to
01:09:28 ◼ ► charge my keyboard, right? Because these are all Bluetooth now. The smart connector is probably
01:09:33 ◼ ► dead for third parties at this point. But I love that they can both charge with the same cable,
01:09:39 ◼ ► right? I think that's fantastic. I really love that. Got to do that, right? So it's good that
01:09:43 ◼ ► the USB-C, they both charge. Battery life is long on these things. People often who haven't used them
01:09:49 ◼ ► ask me about the what's the battery life. You know, if you use the backlighting, the battery
01:09:53 ◼ ► life is going to be less and I very rarely use the backlighting. For me, it's basically endless
01:09:58 ◼ ► battery life because I occasionally think to myself, I should probably charge that keyboard.
01:10:08 ◼ ► because turning it on, it's so quick. Like you don't wait really. Like you just press it,
01:10:14 ◼ ► the button goes green and you're ready to go again. Like turning it off if you're not going
01:10:18 ◼ ► to like at the end of the day or whatever is actually not that much of an issue. And I also
01:10:23 ◼ ► find especially, and this is probably why you see this, if you're a person that doesn't always use
01:10:28 ◼ ► your iPad in laptop mode, you will find yourself turning the keyboard off anyway, because then if
01:10:33 ◼ ► the keyboard is in another room, then it's connected and you have to like press and hold
01:10:38 ◼ ► that little downward chevron button to get the keyboard. So you will find yourself turning it off.
01:10:43 ◼ ► It does like an auto sleep, but if it got jostled or bumped or what happens to me often is that I
01:10:47 ◼ ► take it out of the thing and then I walk away and I forgot to turn it off. And because I jostled it,
01:10:53 ◼ ► it has auto awoken and then I start to type something and no keyboard slides up and I think,
01:10:58 ◼ ► oh, and then I have to go turn it off. And that's an advantage of Logitech, right? Is that doesn't
01:11:02 ◼ ► happen because if it's not in the case attached magnetically, it's off, which is, that is an
01:11:09 ◼ ► advantage, but for me it's not enough, but it is a nice feature. I think, you know, people always ask
01:11:14 ◼ ► us to try and give them an opinion between these things. And I think you've already nailed the main
01:11:20 ◼ ► difference, right? Like you can look at these and work out which one do you like the design of more,
01:11:24 ◼ ► which one do you think might have additional functionality that you like. But the key thing
01:11:29 ◼ ► here really between these two products is do you see yourself in a situation where you will want to
01:11:36 ◼ ► not have the iPad in this keyboard frequently? And I think the answer is if you are that person
01:11:44 ◼ ► and you will want to use your iPad as the tablet as well, the bridge is probably the one between
01:11:48 ◼ ► the two of them because the Logitech device is a little bit more tricky to remove from its case.
01:11:53 ◼ ► - Right. But if you're not mode switching that often, if you're like, I put my iPad in a keyboard
01:11:59 ◼ ► case during the day and then at the end of the day I take it out, then the Logitech is fine for that.
01:12:05 ◼ ► I would argue the bridge is fine for that too, but the Logitech is made for that kind of scenario,
01:12:10 ◼ ► but I don't work that way. And so for me, you know, I don't see a lot of benefit plus it's,
01:12:18 ◼ ► I mean, honestly, if it was just as easy to get in and out of the Logitech cases as the bridge,
01:12:22 ◼ ► I would still prefer the bridge because I think the aluminum feel is better and I think having
01:12:31 ◼ ► it pivot like a laptop at the very back instead of being in the middle is better and it's more stable.
01:12:36 ◼ ► You know, it's got a lot of other things going for it, but that for me is like a key differentiator
01:12:44 ◼ ► between the two products. It's just like their approaches to how you get the iPad in and out
01:12:53 ◼ ► this time around, which I think there wasn't last time with the iPad Pro is that the SmartFolio
01:13:01 ◼ ► is probably more of a viable contender here than we had maybe originally given Apple credit for.
01:13:09 ◼ ► - Yes, I think I mentioned this in my review, but the truth is having used the SmartFolio for
01:13:24 ◼ ► - It is a much, much, much, much better product. - Partially just because I can leave it on. The
01:13:29 ◼ ► old one where it was like thicker halfway through, I hated it so much. Plus the iPad, the big iPad
01:13:35 ◼ ► got smaller, which means the keyboard cover got smaller, so it got less bulky. But you put those
01:13:39 ◼ ► two things together and it is the Smart keyboard folio is a much better product than its predecessor.
01:13:45 ◼ ► I like it. I can work on it. I prefer the bridge, but, and the bridge is cheaper, by the way,
01:13:52 ◼ ► both of these keyboards, the Logitech is even cheaper. The bridge is cheaper than Apple's
01:14:02 ◼ ► do you want to carry something that's much lighter than these other two things? Have a keyboard
01:14:06 ◼ ► available, but not have the keyboard out. Like the Smart keyboard folio is going to give you your
01:14:11 ◼ ► thinnest lightest option where you can always have a keyboard with you without having to carry
01:14:15 ◼ ► something that doubles the weight of your iPad. - And you do never, ever, ever have to think about
01:14:20 ◼ ► charging it. - Right. Exactly. Because it's just using the Smart connector. So there, I think there
01:14:25 ◼ ► are a lot of advantages of the SmartFolio that were not there on the last generation. I think,
01:14:30 ◼ ► I feel like it's a better product and therefore is more competitive and that for some users and some
01:14:35 ◼ ► use cases, it's the best option here. For me, it's, I mean, I wouldn't say it's close for me.
01:14:45 ◼ ► It gives me a little bit of pause because I've learned because it's taken the bridge six months
01:14:49 ◼ ► to get this keyboard out. I've spent that time with a Smart keyboard folio and I've come to
01:14:52 ◼ ► appreciate it. It's not perfect. There are a lot of things I don't like about it, but it's pretty
01:14:57 ◼ ► good. And it's pretty easy to carry it around with you. And that makes the case for the bridge a
01:15:03 ◼ ► little bit harder. In the end, I like really feeling like it's a laptop and using the Smart
01:15:08 ◼ ► keyboard folio on my lap out in like the backyard or whatever is not a great experience. I feel like
01:15:14 ◼ ► even on a plane using the bridge is a better experience than using the Smart keyboard folio
01:15:18 ◼ ► because it puts the iPad further back. But you know, it's a much closer thing than it was before.
01:15:28 ◼ ► Oh, also no function keys on the Smart keyboard folio, which means you can't use a key to do
01:15:34 ◼ ► brightness and volume and media controls and all of those things too. And that's a down.
01:15:43 ◼ ► Obviously it's harder to make a super thin, delicate piece of keyboard cover than it is to
01:15:50 ◼ ► make a big slab of aluminum with a traditional keyboard in it because the Apple case actually
01:15:55 ◼ ► costs more than these other things do. But I think it's a close one. I think for some people,
01:15:59 ◼ ► the Smart keyboard folio is the right choice. You mentioned about the iPad being far away from you
01:16:05 ◼ ► and that being nicer. It was funny. I was talking to Federico about the bridge and he is more keen
01:16:11 ◼ ► on the the Logitech one right now because the iPad is closer to him. Like he wants the iPad closer.
01:16:16 ◼ ► I am in the camp of wanting when I'm in this configuration what bridge has, which is that
01:16:21 ◼ ► there is a wrist rest, like a palm rest, right? Because that feels more natural to me having come
01:16:27 ◼ ► from laptops. From laptops it feels like a laptop, feels like a MacBook. Yeah and I like that feeling.
01:16:32 ◼ ► That actually works for me. I'm perfectly happy with the iPad being the distance that it is away.
01:16:37 ◼ ► But that palm rest is missing a trackpad. Yeah so this is so bad. This to me is one of the great
01:16:44 ◼ ► mysteries of where we are right now and when people say "should I buy the bridge keyboard?"
01:16:47 ◼ ► It's like it's my favorite, still my favorite, although the Smart keyboard folio is good.
01:16:52 ◼ ► Logitech one is fine if you are of a particular kind of user case. But hanging over all of this
01:17:00 ◼ ► is Federico saying that iOS 13 is going to have an accessibility feature that you'll be able to
01:17:08 ◼ ► turn on and then you'll be able to use a Bluetooth pointing device. And bridge already makes
01:17:17 ◼ ► this case, you know, a version of this case for the Microsoft Surface. And there's a trackpad in
01:17:24 ◼ ► that, you know, palm rest space. There's a trackpad there, a Bluetooth trackpad, because
01:17:30 ◼ ► Microsoft Surface can have a traditional pointing device. And I think to myself, well this is great,
01:17:35 ◼ ► but the moment that I can do a pointing device on my iPad I don't want this anymore. I want the one
01:17:42 ◼ ► with the trackpad. There's nothing to be done about it and it's not going to ship until the fall and
01:17:46 ◼ ► a lot of people aren't going to see the need for a trackpad on iOS. But until we really know
01:17:51 ◼ ► what the deal is and how it works and all of that, it's just sort of out there. But I feel like
01:17:56 ◼ ► that's the next phase here, right? The next phase of this is that I'm going to want that model.
01:18:02 ◼ ► Now, the funny thing is assuming that Apple isn't going to change the industrial design of the iPad
01:18:05 ◼ ► Pro for a while now because they just did it, I think bridge is going to be able to iterate on
01:18:10 ◼ ► this design a lot faster because they've made the design now. It took them six months to do a
01:18:15 ◼ ► completely new industrial design, but now they've got it. So assuming that the design of these
01:18:23 ◼ ► things doesn't change over the next year or two, hopefully they'll be able to turn this stuff
01:18:27 ◼ ► around faster. I will be interested to see what they do. They clearly have the capability to build
01:18:33 ◼ ► that with the trackpad in it. And what will they do? Will they want to do that? How many people are
01:18:39 ◼ ► going to want to turn that on? I don't know. I know I want it. Yeah, me too. But we'll say,
01:18:43 ◼ ► can I give you, Jason, my mini review of the 12.9 bridge? Yes, please. What have we not
01:18:50 ◼ ► talked about that you would like to talk about? We have, but I just want to run through. Oh, okay.
01:18:55 ◼ ► I really missed this form factor like a lot. Yeah, I missed it a lot the last six months,
01:19:03 ◼ ► This is the true laptop form factor that I'm looking for with the iPad in times when I want
01:19:09 ◼ ► that. There has been a big change for me since I used the original bridge, which is I now use my
01:19:21 ◼ ► But the bridge now is even better for this because now I don't need two keyboards anymore.
01:19:27 ◼ ► Right, you can put it in the stand and then put the bridge just down on the flat typing surface.
01:19:42 ◼ ► because I just use the bridge keyboard. It's like that's one of the big advantages of Bluetooth.
01:19:47 ◼ ► It's one keyboard now. And I still benefit from all of the things that that has. I mean,
01:19:52 ◼ ► I have all of the function keys and stuff. So it's great. Plus, I like the keyboard a lot.
01:19:56 ◼ ► It felt super different to me than I remembered. There is a texture on the keys now, which
01:20:03 ◼ ► is different. But I feel like I had to maybe just reacquaint myself to the travel of this keyboard
01:20:09 ◼ ► because Bridge Say is exactly the same. Now I would tell them it's not, but they have said it is.
01:20:15 ◼ ► So I believe them. I think what happened is they did a second generation version of their last
01:20:21 ◼ ► keyboard and that changed the travel and the keyboard type. And then they did a change this
01:20:27 ◼ ► time where they changed the finish on the surface of the keys. So it feels a little more like
01:20:31 ◼ ► textured and a little less smooth. It's got a matte finish to it. Which I actually do like.
01:20:35 ◼ ► I don't know if I necessarily prefer one or the other, but I have no problem with that texture.
01:20:39 ◼ ► I think I preferred the old finish. So it's a two-step thing. It's not the same keyboard as
01:20:45 ◼ ► it was two generations ago. They've made these two different changes, but the travel apparently
01:20:49 ◼ ► didn't change between the last and this. It feels more like a magic keyboard to me than anything.
01:20:53 ◼ ► It feels kind of like a magic keyboard. Yeah, it's close. It's definitely close to that, right?
01:21:01 ◼ ► I have the space gray. And just in general, everything just looks tidier than it did before.
01:21:17 ◼ ► Yeah. And it looks like a laptop that doesn't exist, which I find fascinating because the old
01:21:21 ◼ ► one was basically the bottom of a MacBook Air. That's how they designed it. They said, "What
01:21:26 ◼ ► is this going to look like?" I mean, they said, "Let's make it look like the bottom of a MacBook
01:21:29 ◼ ► Air." This doesn't, right? Because it's got the sides and stuff. It really is sort of their
01:21:36 ◼ ► vision of what the iPad Pro design language would look like in a laptop that doesn't exist. And I
01:21:46 ◼ ► Locks and unlocks the iPad. Or like, yeah, wakes the screen. It's just a nice touch, right?
01:21:52 ◼ ► Thank you, Bridge, for thinking about putting the magnet in the right place, right? I just
01:21:57 ◼ ► like stuff like that. I also, so I mean, I've 100% I'm in on this, right? Like I gave it a couple of
01:22:04 ◼ ► days. Like, "Oh, well, I want to go back to the smartphone." No, this is what I want to use on my
01:22:09 ◼ ► home iPad. The jury's still out on the 11 inch, right? Like I don't know how I'm going to feel
01:22:14 ◼ ► about that yet. I feel like it will be a really good work and travel combination, but am I going
01:22:18 ◼ ► to like the additional thickness and weight? Because it definitely adds weight, right? Like,
01:22:22 ◼ ► it's a little bit heavier than just the iPad on its own. And it is heavier than with the SmartFolio,
01:22:28 ◼ ► but it feels bigger, right? Like, so I'm intrigued to see what the 11 inch is going to be like.
01:22:33 ◼ ► But for my home setup, right, the 12.9, this is perfect for this now. Like, I'm super happy.
01:22:38 ◼ ► But I now, having just using the iPad without the SmartFolio one, I'm falling in love with the
01:22:47 ◼ ► ProK factor again, because I'd forgotten how thin and incredible this iPad feels. But now I'm using
01:22:53 ◼ ► it more without the SmartFolio on it. So that's also really nice too. I'm using my iPad mostly
01:23:00 ◼ ► using the, I have a, the regular cover, regular case for it, in the non-keyboard version. And that's
01:23:08 ◼ ► really nice, because it's much lighter than the one with the keyboard. But I've also been using
01:23:13 ◼ ► the ProK, and that's even nicer. So I'm happy to go with no case like it doesn't bother me too much.
01:23:17 ◼ ► I have AppleCare after I destroyed my last one. Like, I'm good to go. But I'm really, I'm actually
01:23:23 ◼ ► really happy. I was wondering, right, like leading up to the bridge, like, I like the SmartFolio,
01:23:30 ◼ ► right? Like, it's like, this is great. This is like, this is much better than the Smart keyboard.
01:23:36 ◼ ► But no, they did it again. I'm all in. Like, I'm all in. I think if, for me, if you like the original,
01:23:42 ◼ ► see how you wouldn't like this one too. You know, I think this is a really great product. It's
01:23:48 ◼ ► better than the last one, in my opinion. I'm very, very happy with it. I'll follow up on the 11 as
01:23:53 ◼ ► well whenever that comes in. Right. Because that's, that's complete, you know, because we both really
01:23:58 ◼ ► like the 10.5 one, but it came too late for us both, right? Right. So I'm really keen to see what
01:24:04 ◼ ► it will be like to use the 11. Like, if it's going to change how I travel with my work, my travel
01:24:10 ◼ ► iPad, right, which that one is. So, right. And also the 10.5 now works with the new iPad Air. So for
01:24:15 ◼ ► people who are not going to get an iPad Pro, but are going to get an iPad Air, that bridge 10.5 that
01:24:20 ◼ ► they designed for the 10.5 Pro works with the Air and it's great. Like, it's the, it's that previous
01:24:27 ◼ ► generation keyboard and we felt really bad when they made it and it's like, it's going to be
01:24:31 ◼ ► discontinued. But look, that size and shape remained. Yeah. Today's episode is also brought
01:24:38 ◼ ► to you by our friends over at Pingdom. While you've been listening to the show, how would you
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01:26:08 ◼ ► this show and Relay FM. Now it's time for some #AskUpgrade questions. Thank you, Jason. The first
01:26:18 ◼ ► one comes from Florian. Florian says, I know this is extremely unlikely, but do you think there is
01:26:23 ◼ ► any possibility of Apple announcing any new iPhone version, maybe like the red version of the phone
01:26:29 ◼ ► at WWDC? I'm planning to buy a new iPhone at the end of May. My feeling is they wouldn't announce
01:26:37 ◼ ► it probably at WWDC. They could like in a press release or whatever. They could do it anytime, but
01:26:42 ◼ ► all it would be is, yeah, would be like a color variant or something like that. I don't think
01:26:47 ◼ ► anybody's expecting anything else until the fall. Yeah. I, you know, Florian, if you're ready to go
01:26:52 ◼ ► and you want to get a phone now and you don't want to wait until the fall, you can't wait until the
01:26:56 ◼ ► fall. Just get one now. Don't worry about it. Like it's going to be fine. I would love for there to
01:27:00 ◼ ► be rumors out there about a new low cost iPhone, like replacing the SE that would come out sometime
01:27:04 ◼ ► soon, but there have been zero. Absolutely nothing. So I suspect it does not exist. There was some
01:27:10 ◼ ► rumors for a while, but they've all stopped. So I'm not so sure about that. Right. Gareth says,
01:27:16 ◼ ► follow up from the iPad charging question last week. Do you charge your AirPods case regularly
01:27:22 ◼ ► or just when it's low with my usage pattern, it lasts long enough that I always find myself taken
01:27:27 ◼ ► by surprise when it finally runs out. For me, it's exactly what I said about the keyboards,
01:27:32 ◼ ► which is I think about it and think, oh, I've used my iPad or my AirPods a bit. I maybe should charge
01:27:38 ◼ ► them. I very rarely get to the situation where the case is out. I do sometimes get to the case where
01:27:44 ◼ ► the, you know, the AirPods are out, but the case is very rarely out. And now that I've got that
01:27:48 ◼ ► new case, what I often will do is I'll use them for, to take a walk or, or whatever, or work in
01:27:54 ◼ ► the backyard. And, uh, this little thing will go off my brain and say, Hey, you haven't charged
01:27:58 ◼ ► those in a while. And I, um, during the day my wife is at work, one of our charging pads is open
01:28:04 ◼ ► and I'll just set it on there for a while. And so for me, it really is like, I just have,
01:28:10 ◼ ► rather than having a cycle for it, I just remind myself every now and then, oh, you should probably
01:28:17 ◼ ► top up the AirPods case. And that has worked a hundred percent of the time. So it is just
01:28:22 ◼ ► worth noting in this hashtag segment that iOS 12.3 is out. Um, so there's some breaking news
01:28:29 ◼ ► release lasers. I wanted to just mention it because it includes the Apple TV app and like
01:28:34 ◼ ► that's launching on TVs today as well. Like this is going to pop up on the Samsung TVs today. So
01:28:39 ◼ ► it's just worth noting because it also brings with it the channels and all of that kind of stuff.
01:28:44 ◼ ► Right. So we'll have to kind of follow up on that. We didn't do any upstream. Is this upstream,
01:28:49 ◼ ► Myke? Did upstream happen in the middle of Ask Upgrade? Sure. Um, anyway, that's, that's weird.
01:28:55 ◼ ► So it's, uh, yeah, we'll check it out and, and find out. I'm looking forward to seeing how that
01:28:59 ◼ ► goes. I wonder, I have a Roku TV, so I, I keep wondering when the, when I'm going to get the,
01:29:04 ◼ ► you know, when that, that Roku TV update happens, probably not until Apple's TV service launches,
01:29:10 ◼ ► I would, I would guess. Yeah. Samsung, Samsung got an exclusivity period clearly, I think,
01:29:14 ◼ ► you know, for being Samsung. Uh, our next question comes from Ace. Do you think that the new Mac,
01:29:21 ◼ ► Oh, I didn't answer about the AirPods did I? Uh, basically the same as you. I just sometimes like,
01:29:26 ◼ ► I'm sitting on my desk and I'm like, Oh, I'll just plug that in. Cause I don't really have
01:29:30 ◼ ► any wireless charging stuff around me. So, but I have a lightning cable just on my desk all the
01:29:35 ◼ ► time. So I just plugged my AirPods case in, uh, like, you know, my AirPods run out. They actually
01:29:41 ◼ ► AirPods themselves and I just charged them up. That happens every now and then, but I've never,
01:29:45 ◼ ► ever, ever had the case die on me ever on any of my AirPods. Cause I just, I don't charge it
01:29:51 ◼ ► like mindfully. It's very mindless. It's like, Oh, plug it in. Come sit in there. I might as well
01:29:56 ◼ ► just plug it in. So Ace's question was, do you think that a new Mac Pro could have two processors,
01:30:01 ◼ ► both ARM and Intel to help start the transition? That would sure be fun though. Right? Wouldn't
01:30:07 ◼ ► that be fun? I like this idea. It will cause it'll have presumably a T2 or a T3 or whatever.
01:30:13 ◼ ► Sure. But let's imagine it is the, uh, Jason Snell A11M or A13M. I think that would be a
01:30:19 ◼ ► fascinating thing, but it sounds very much like not a great, like that would be a weird,
01:30:24 ◼ ► like developer transition product. I don't know. Uh, I, uh, no, I'll say no. I think it's too,
01:30:35 ◼ ► I think it's too complex and you can build, you can build all these apps to run on Intel
01:30:41 ◼ ► in the simulator already. That's how it works. I don't see what you get really from having an
01:30:48 ◼ ► ARM processor in there as well. If you've got the Intel processor in there, I just, I, I'm kind of
01:30:54 ◼ ► not seeing it. I feel like the Mac Pro is a great system to just have a super powerful Intel
01:30:59 ◼ ► processors and, and, uh, just do your work on those while the ARM kind of creeps across the line from
01:31:04 ◼ ► the laptops. I agree. It's incredibly unlikely, but I just liked the thought of it anyway. Um,
01:31:08 ◼ ► it, it, it, this isn't the right product to, to start the transition with. It's a laptop is where
01:31:15 ◼ ► it probably should be first, but I still just like the idea of it. Uh, DC fan says, how does one
01:31:20 ◼ ► stick arise their laptop more specifically? How do you go about actually putting them on? Is there a
01:31:24 ◼ ► system? Do you have a particular ritual? Um, I I've gotten over wanting to defile my perfect computer,
01:31:30 ◼ ► but I need some advice. All right. So I want to, this is for me mostly. I know Jason, you have,
01:31:35 ◼ ► uh, you put the little rainbow stickers on your laptops, which are beautiful. You find those on
01:31:40 ◼ ► Etsy and places like that. Can't you, you get a little Apple rainbow logo, but I am known for
01:31:44 ◼ ► stick arising my products. Um, so first off I will say, cause everybody asks me, Myke, where do you
01:31:49 ◼ ► buy your stickers? I don't have a place anymore. I used to use sticker mules marketplace because you
01:31:55 ◼ ► could just buy stickers there with various designs, but they closed that down. Um, so now these days
01:32:01 ◼ ► I find stickers in places, right? So like I might go to some kind of store and I buy some stickers
01:32:07 ◼ ► cause I think they look cool or like, um, like, you know, maybe I follow some artists on Instagram
01:32:12 ◼ ► and I buy their stickers that they're selling directly or I just make them myself. And this
01:32:16 ◼ ► isn't something I necessarily recommend for everyone, but I have more than enough opportunities
01:32:21 ◼ ► in my life to give out stickers to people. So I'll make some designs, you know, when we're coming up
01:32:25 ◼ ► to WWDC or whatever and I'll just get them out. So, um, I like that we should make some, uh,
01:32:30 ◼ ► maybe make some different upgrades stickers. We'll see. We might have some stuff for WWDC, but, um,
01:32:36 ◼ ► for actually putting them on, really, I just go with how it feels. One thing I don't do,
01:32:42 ◼ ► and I really recommend people do not do is put all of their stickers facing one orientation.
01:32:47 ◼ ► You've got to mix it up. You've got to really like, so it looks good from every angle. I think
01:32:51 ◼ ► that's the right way to do it. Um, that's the way that I like it. I think it looks better that way.
01:32:55 ◼ ► I am also overlap. You got to overlap them as well. I feel like you've really got to go for it.
01:33:00 ◼ ► Um, so, so I'm excited because all of my stickers for my iPad pro are on my smart folio. So now
01:33:18 ◼ ► even though there are stickers on my smart folio, I only had them once, but like whatever,
01:33:23 ◼ ► like they live there now. And now I have, I can get all new stickers. I'm always collecting
01:33:27 ◼ ► stickers. I see them out. I buy them. Um, it's just a thing. And Jeff wants to know finally today,
01:33:38 ◼ ► tapping. So I don't like the tapping, uh, to activate Siri. Um, do you, you know, how do you
01:33:45 ◼ ► like it? Do you use a using a high telephone on your AirPods? I haven't used it once. Okay. I've
01:33:51 ◼ ► used it a few times. I've had it go off by accident a few times. I'm happy that it's there. Um, but
01:33:57 ◼ ► I'm not finding myself using it all the time because I'm still having the problem sometimes
01:34:02 ◼ ► where I have them in my ears, but I'm not playing anything. So I get the command and then my home
01:34:07 ◼ ► pod goes off and it's like, you're not doing what I want. Like this isn't what I want. So
01:34:12 ◼ ► anyhow, if you'd like to send in a question to help us close out the show, you can always send
01:34:19 ◼ ► in a tweet with the hashtag ask upgrade. And they go into a document for us to pull from.
01:34:25 ◼ ► If you'd like to find our show notes for this week's episode, you can go to relay.fm/upgrade/245.
01:34:28 ◼ ► You can find Jason online. He is @JSNEL, J S N E double L on Twitter. Um, and you can go to
01:34:38 ◼ ► sixcolors.com and the incomparable.com for more of Jason's work. I am I Myke, I M Y K E. You can
01:34:45 ◼ ► follow me online. And this show is a part of many shows here at relay FM. Go to relay.fm/shows.
01:34:51 ◼ ► You can find upgrade and many other wonderful related programs. Thanks once more to our sponsors