00:00:20 ◼ ► Jason Snell is here. Hi, Jason Snell. Hi, Myke Hurley. Welcome back to the Upgrade program.
00:00:24 ◼ ► Thank you. I would like to thank John Syracuse for filling in last week. I always enjoy listening to
00:00:28 ◼ ► Upgrade. Upgrade's a good podcast, so it's sometimes nice when I get to just appreciate it as an
00:00:33 ◼ ► upgradian instead of us. How did I do with the theme music last time? It was, it felt pretty
00:00:38 ◼ ► right to me. I tried to emulate the Myke Hurley creative choices with the theme music last week.
00:00:43 ◼ ► Well, what I will say is I didn't start it and think, "Oh, Jason, so you must have done the
00:00:49 ◼ ► right job," right? Because usually you'll put in like variant B or something, right? Yes. So
00:00:55 ◼ ► I appreciate that. But nobody cares about this, literally, except for me and you. So we should
00:01:00 ◼ ► go into #SnellTalk. And we have a question from Dylan. And Dylan wants to know, "Jason,
00:01:04 ◼ ► what do you prefer, day travel or night travel?" I prefer flying early in the morning. And getting
00:01:10 ◼ ► up is terrible, but it just, you can, I can do it. It's fine. I don't like getting up at four in the
00:01:16 ◼ ► morning or whatever and going to the airport, although there's no traffic, four in the morning
00:01:27 ◼ ► reasons. One is I live on the edge of the Pacific Ocean, which means almost all of my travel is
00:01:34 ◼ ► to the east. And the later you travel, the later you get there, like leading to the fact that if
00:01:47 ◼ ► And then you're getting there the next day. And the problem is I don't live there. And you don't,
00:01:51 ◼ ► flying a red eye when you don't have a destination where you can just kind of go home is not good
00:01:59 ◼ ► because then you're, it's 6 a.m. and you're on the streets of Boston or wherever, and you can't
00:02:05 ◼ ► go to your hotel. Your hotel won't take you in for another, you know, eight hours, nine hours.
00:02:11 ◼ ► - Yeah, you're just stuck, right? - And so you're just a zombie with a suitcase wandering the streets. I've done that.
00:02:17 ◼ ► It's not good. And so the red eye is not really practical for me, for something other than,
00:02:24 ◼ ► I suppose like if we came back from Hawaii on a red eye, which I've never done, that might work.
00:02:28 ◼ ► The other big thing is that if you go in the morning, the planes generally, with the exception
00:02:34 ◼ ► of red eye flights, generally the airlines reset their planes in the morning and the plane has been
00:02:40 ◼ ► sitting overnight at the gate or in a hangar or wherever, but it's ready to go. You haven't had
00:02:47 ◼ ► a chance for your flight to get delayed because the plane that your flight is on is delayed
00:02:52 ◼ ► somewhere else in the country. It's already there, which means that early in the morning, there are no,
00:02:59 ◼ ► there are fewer delays and it's more reliable to fly in the morning. So I generally try to fly first
00:03:04 ◼ ► thing in the morning if I can manage it. - Some Jason Snow travel hacks right there. - That's, oh yeah, oh yeah,
00:03:10 ◼ ► deep, deep stuff. - That's all the people tune in for. I, very quickly, when I'm going to America, I like to
00:03:15 ◼ ► leave early in the morning. When I'm coming home, I like to leave late at night. - I fly overnight to Europe,
00:03:19 ◼ ► yeah, overnight to Europe. From the West Coast, it's such a long flight that it's really the only
00:03:24 ◼ ► way to do it. And because it's, I know that's a red eye, but because it's an overnight flight to Europe,
00:03:28 ◼ ► by the time I get to Europe, it's already in the afternoon. Most of the time. I did once fly into
00:03:34 ◼ ► London and we got in at 6 a.m. Again, no place to go, just a zombie, not good. - Don't want that.
00:03:42 ◼ ► So this actually ties into a programming note. We're going to be a day late next week because
00:03:47 ◼ ► Jason is traveling. Nothing's happening. There's no, well, we don't know of any big news. We're not like
00:03:53 ◼ ► holding the episode because there's a new iPhone. - No, there are no embargos that I can, if I have
00:03:59 ◼ ► an embargo, no, here's the thing. If I have an embargo, if I have something that is secret,
00:04:04 ◼ ► I can't say that I have it. It's like the canary clause in one of those contracts where like,
00:04:16 ◼ ► I don't have one, I'm not lying because I wouldn't lie. I would deflect or something, but I wouldn't
00:04:22 ◼ ► lie about it. I don't have anything. - Do I have to ask you the question? Is that how it works? - I'm going to a wedding.
00:04:26 ◼ ► - Oh, okay. - Yeah, I'm going to a wedding and on Easter Sunday, basically, and I'm not getting back
00:04:32 ◼ ► until Monday afternoon. And so we're going to do the podcast on Tuesday morning and release it
00:04:37 ◼ ► afterward. So just one day late next week is what I'm saying. It'll be very similar to the
00:04:41 ◼ ► one last week where we had to record late and released it late. In this case, it'll be a
00:04:49 ◼ ► daylight. It'll be okay. It'll be a good episode though. I'll be awake, which I wouldn't be if we
00:04:53 ◼ ► were recording it the day after a wedding while in a hotel room. So that's why we're delaying it.
00:05:00 ◼ ► We're delaying it because we care. - Yep. If you'd like to send in a question like Dylan did to open
00:05:04 ◼ ► the show, #snowtalk is the way to do that. We use Google Docs here at the Upgrade program, and as I
00:05:10 ◼ ► look at it right now, the ghost of John Siracusa is hovering over this Google Doc, so it can only
00:05:15 ◼ ► mean that it is time for follow-up. Do you see his little face there up in the corner? - Yeah.
00:05:22 ◼ ► Myke, is that means that we're in one of his 1,000 open tabs. - Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I need to
00:05:29 ◼ ► start leaving him some little messages or something. I don't know. You've published your iMac review.
00:05:34 ◼ ► We've spoken a ton about this iMac over the last few weeks, but I just kind of wanted to get the
00:05:40 ◼ ► sense from you. I have two little questions for you. One is, do you recommend this iMac after
00:05:45 ◼ ► having using it? And two, I've heard you mention this in a couple of places. You mentioned it in
00:05:56 ◼ ► there is a potential logic that a bigger change is coming to the iMac, which is why this one has
00:06:02 ◼ ► mostly remained the same except for some of the internals. I just wanted to test the water of,
00:06:08 ◼ ► do you think that there could be any wishful thinking in there? So there are my two things.
00:06:11 ◼ ► One, would you recommend it to people? And two, do you think a change coming soon could be a little
00:06:16 ◼ ► bit of wishful thinking? - So the review is, I mean, it's almost like an essay, especially since
00:06:22 ◼ ► I wrote about some of the performance stuff on Macworld before. It's kind of like an essay on
00:06:26 ◼ ► the state of the iMac right now more than it is anything else. I do think that if you are
00:06:39 ◼ ► that unless you have some very particular need for some aspect of the iMac Pro, you shouldn't get the
00:06:45 ◼ ► base model. I feel like the high-end iMac is so much cheaper for basically the same performance.
00:06:53 ◼ ► Even if you put in the RAM and the SSD and everything and the high-end video card and all
00:06:59 ◼ ► of that, you're still gonna save $1,000, $800 over the iMac Pro. And that's real money for
00:07:13 ◼ ► So I feel like what this really has done is kind of pushed the iMac Pro. If you want an iMac Pro
00:07:19 ◼ ► and are gonna spec it up to the 10-core model or one of the even more expensive models, then yes,
00:07:36 ◼ ► I have the base model iMac Pro, and I'm happy with it. But part of that is that I do podcasts and the
00:07:42 ◼ ► fan is silent in this, and that's sort of reason enough for me. But even so, it would still be
00:07:51 ◼ ► a harder decision. Plus, if you don't need the RAM, you can actually buy less RAM because the
00:07:57 ◼ ► base model iMac comes with 32 iMac Pro. And I think the iMac, you can spec lower than that.
00:08:03 ◼ ► So there's other ways to save money as well, and it comes with a terabyte SSD in the iMac Pro. And
00:08:09 ◼ ► if you wanted to save money, you could do that and save even more. I think my larger view of
00:08:20 ◼ ► Something's gotta give. The fact that this is the last new Mac without a T2 processor in it
00:08:29 ◼ ► suggests to me that this is, I mean, I feel like it's inevitable that there will be a new iMac that
00:08:35 ◼ ► will be very different technically. And it's unclear when that will come. And will this just
00:08:41 ◼ ► continue to be an Intel Mac until Apple switches to ARM? Or will there be a new generation that is
00:08:47 ◼ ► an Intel iMac that has presumably smaller bezels and a rethought cooling system and no spinning hard
00:08:54 ◼ ► drives and stuff like that? I feel like that change is inevitable, that this is the end of
00:09:00 ◼ ► the line, and that this feels like modern processors in old tech. And that's fine. It's a
00:09:09 ◼ ► really good computer and very powerful, and you can spec it up to a lot. And if you need an iMac,
00:09:14 ◼ ► I'd say go ahead and get it. But at the same time, I do look at it and think it's kind of an outlier
00:09:24 ◼ ► There are probably going to be things several years out from now, there are going to be things
00:09:29 ◼ ► it can't do because it doesn't have a T2 processor. There are probably going to be things that it can
00:09:33 ◼ ► do that modern Macs are shut away from because Apple's like, "No, no, no. You can't," like,
00:09:39 ◼ ► I don't know, running old operating systems and things like that. I don't know. It's a quirky
00:09:43 ◼ ► thing where it's not what you expect from a brand new Mac in 2019. But that said, a lot of that
00:09:49 ◼ ► stuff is for the future and is charting Apple and its general direction with computers. And it
00:09:56 ◼ ► doesn't take away from the fact that it is, you know, they have great screens. You can power up
00:10:00 ◼ ► that 4K iMac if you don't need a giant screen in your face. That 4K iMac can be made pretty
00:10:08 ◼ ► powerful too, including having powerful graphics and not the super high-end ninth generation Intel
00:10:15 ◼ ► processors, but a pretty powerful processor in it. So, you know, they're good. I just think on the
00:10:20 ◼ ► larger story, this is Apple kicking the can down the road a little bit. And I'm a little frustrated
00:10:28 ◼ ► by that, but I don't think it really affects whether it's a good computer or not. I'm a little
00:10:35 ◼ ► frustrated and it makes me wonder why they're doing it. And it may be as simple as they have
00:10:41 ◼ ► other Mac stuff that they're working on and the iMac sells pretty well as it is. And they don't
00:10:47 ◼ ► want the iMac to maybe get painted in the corner like the MacBook and the MacBook Air where the
00:10:54 ◼ ► added expense of a brand new iMac without spinning hard drives as an option would mean that the whole
00:11:01 ◼ ► iMac line got more expensive and that they would be, you know, I think they're price conscious with
00:11:07 ◼ ► the iMac because they sell a lot of base model iMacs. It wouldn't shock me if they take the 27
00:11:13 ◼ ► inch and do a new version of that in the future that is modern. Is that how the retina started?
00:11:20 ◼ ► Yeah, the 5K came in 2014. I forgot this because I bought the 5K iMac and it's right when I started
00:11:25 ◼ ► as an independent. The next year, the 4K iMac, the 21 5 got retina. So that may happen again,
00:11:32 ◼ ► where we see a totally brand new 27 inch iMac or other dimension, who knows, and that the 21 5 can
00:11:40 ◼ ► stay down there in the price line with the non retina version and even a retina version with
00:11:44 ◼ ► spinning disks. And that'll be a cheaper one and that will allow them to price up the...
00:11:48 ◼ ► I also guess in a funny way, the iMac Pro is kind of like that too, right? Where it's just like,
00:11:54 ◼ ► it's the very top end, like size wise, the most expensive one. And they did a bunch of weird stuff
00:11:58 ◼ ► to it, which will eventually some of it will find its way into the product lineup, you'd assume,
00:12:05 ◼ ► I would assume, although it's weird because I feel like the iMac really needs an external redesign
00:12:13 ◼ ► and maybe it doesn't, but it's seven years old, right? And we live in a world where everybody's
00:12:18 ◼ ► pulling in the bezels. And the funny thing about the iMac Pro is internally, I think it is what
00:12:23 ◼ ► Apple wants Macs to be, cause it's got the T2 and it's SSD only. Externally, it's just a space gray
00:12:30 ◼ ► version of the 2012 design. So it's not there either, but it's possible that, yeah, it's
00:12:35 ◼ ► possible that we don't know the final fate of the iMac Pro either, right? Like it was designed in
00:12:42 ◼ ► a world where there was no Mac Pro, but there is going to be a Mac Pro. So it's also not impossible
00:12:47 ◼ ► that the iMac Pro is a one-off and that they do a new iMac 27 that has the ability maybe they
00:12:53 ◼ ► maybe they even design it so that they can sell a, you know, a high-end thing that's even more high
00:12:59 ◼ ► end than what's in the iMacs today. And they say, beyond this, you should just get our external
00:13:15 ◼ ► mythical 16-inch MacBook Pro was delayed. It turns out that report was incorrectly translated.
00:13:23 ◼ ► The report was mostly about the external monitor. And when it was originally translated from Ming-Chi
00:13:31 ◼ ► Kuo, it was believed that he was saying that the MacBook Pro was coming later, but it's actually
00:13:38 ◼ ► not mentioned at all. So there is currently nothing to suggest that the MacBook Pro is going to not
00:13:45 ◼ ► meet its original timeframe whenever that may be. So basically the idea of it not coming out this
00:13:56 ◼ ► briefly last week in that interim where there were these initial reports saying that he said it
00:14:02 ◼ ► wasn't going to happen. And then we, uh, and then we got a better translation and said that's totally
00:14:07 ◼ ► wrong. And that's not what it says at all. >> And last piece of follow-up, uh, we'll talk
00:14:19 ◼ ► >> Yeah. Bridge sent me one that they say is one of the first ones off of the final. Remember,
00:14:27 ◼ ► they're producing them and they're going to start fulfilling orders. Um, it looks like it's going to
00:14:33 ◼ ► happen in early May. >> I think if you order now, it's coming from May, but I re I believe they
00:14:38 ◼ ► originally said that some would start shipping in April, which seems possible. >> Yeah. I don't think
00:14:43 ◼ ► that's going to happen. I think that, I think that it's, it's all going to be shipping in early May
00:14:48 ◼ ► and it looks good so far. Although again, I just, I, I ran a little typing test on it and got,
00:14:53 ◼ ► I typed it at full speed and it worked, but you know, I want to live with it for awhile.
00:14:56 ◼ ► I will say that I, uh, having the old bridge on the old iPad Pro, uh, that it kind of ruined me,
00:15:03 ◼ ► like to the point where I am in those situations now with the smart keyboard and I'm like,
00:15:09 ◼ ► okay, like I'm just not super enthusiastic and smart keyboards fine, but, uh, I find myself,
00:15:17 ◼ ► uh, longing for the, the better keys of the, of the bridge keyboard. So I'm looking forward to
00:15:22 ◼ ► trying it out and I'm very excited about that. It's getting a little warmer weather, uh, do,
00:15:31 ◼ ► with the bridge keyboard. So I'll report more as I use it. >> All right. So let's talk about Disney+.
00:15:40 ◼ ► So, uh, there was a investor meeting, um, this, this past week where Disney, we gave a bunch of
00:15:48 ◼ ► details about Disney+. So I'm going to run through a bunch of these and then we can kind of wrap it
00:15:53 ◼ ► up a little bit just to keep everyone on the page as what we do here on the upstream segment of
00:15:57 ◼ ► upgrade. So it's going to be launching in the U S on November 12th. It will cost $6.99 a month or
00:16:02 ◼ ► $69.99 a year, which is a really nice price. By the end of year one, there will be 7,500
00:16:09 ◼ ► episodes of TV shows. Some that will be currently on air, some off air. So like some effectively
00:16:20 ◼ ► And one of the key things I think that, uh, brings that total number up to 7,500 is all 30 seasons of
00:16:33 ◼ ► 10 will be original again, all within the first year. It's ad free. So that, that price, that $6.99
00:16:39 ◼ ► a month, that's all it is. There's no ads. They're putting it everywhere they can smart TVs, games,
00:16:44 ◼ ► consoles. It's on the web. It's in apps. Um, according to Bob Iger, they're going to put it on
00:16:54 ◼ ► international rollout is going to be happening steadily. Um, they're going to be hoping to be
00:16:59 ◼ ► doing West Europe and the Asia Pacific also in Q4 cause, uh, so by the end of the year, um, and then
00:17:06 ◼ ► Eastern Europe and Latin America in 2020. Um, but they need the reason that they're staging it out
00:17:12 ◼ ► a little bit is they need to wait for rights to expire in those regions. Uh, as expected,
00:17:19 ◼ ► they're locking up the big movies. So you're only going to be able to stream movies like
00:17:22 ◼ ► Captain Marvel, Toy Story 4, Avengers Endgame, and Frozen 2 on Disney+. It's the only place you'll be
00:17:27 ◼ ► able to stream them. And they previewed a bunch of original programming, including some new stuff. So
00:17:37 ◼ ► The Mandalorian. Uh, there's a Rogue One prequel starring Diego Luna, a Clone Wars series,
00:17:43 ◼ ► a Monsters Inc series called Monsters at Work. And then there's a bunch of Marvel stuff, including a
00:17:48 ◼ ► Loki TV show, a show called WandaVision, which is Wanda and the Vision, The Falcon and the Winter
00:17:52 ◼ ► Soldier and Hawkeye. And those four, those four shows all include the A-list movie actors
00:17:59 ◼ ► replacing their roles. Yep. Pretty big, right? They weren't, they're not kidding around. Pretty
00:18:05 ◼ ► big. I should say for, for clarity's sake that when we say, um, you can only stream them on
00:18:11 ◼ ► Disney+. My understanding is that, you know, they're still going to sell, you know, you'll
00:18:15 ◼ ► still be able to go to iTunes. It's not the only digital place you'll be able to get them.
00:18:26 ◼ ► And then they will disappear from Netflix. And, uh, and Captain Marvel is the first where they,
00:18:31 ◼ ► it is the first movie that is not touched by their contract on Netflix. So it will never go
00:18:36 ◼ ► to Netflix and all the rest of them will slowly just drip off of Netflix and disappear. And I
00:18:42 ◼ ► imagine, you know, the same thing is going to happen to all of the Disney animation stuff and
00:18:46 ◼ ► all the Pixar stuff. It's all going to drain out of Netflix and then reappear on Disney+, along with
00:18:51 ◼ ► all those movies that Disney puts in the, you know, the vault where they, they don't sell them
00:18:55 ◼ ► for a while. Those are all going to be on this service. But the, um, but the big thing here is
00:19:00 ◼ ► the price, right? Like this is a super aggressive price. It's way less than other services like
00:19:05 ◼ ► Netflix, especially charge is way less than anybody really expected Apple to charge. And Apple
00:19:10 ◼ ► has no catalog and just some originals that are not tied to these mega brands that Disney owns.
00:19:15 ◼ ► Um, and, um, I talked about this with Tim Goodman last week on our TV podcast that we do. And, um,
00:19:22 ◼ ► you know, he, he believes, and I think he's right that this is, uh, a real wake up call if they
00:19:29 ◼ ► didn't expect it already for Apple, that, um, it's hard to imagine how Apple can come into the market
00:19:36 ◼ ► with something at nine 99 or 14 99 when all they have is originals. And it's starting to make me
00:19:45 ◼ ► reconsider. Not sure I believe the people who are like, well, the only way they need to do,
00:19:50 ◼ ► they just need to give it away for free. Like, I'm not, I still don't believe Ben Thompson wrote
00:19:55 ◼ ► about this today. Like that Apple's business model is, is like Amazon's is really to kind of like
00:20:01 ◼ ► build a nice home where they can resell all of these other, uh, streaming services. And I, you
00:20:07 ◼ ► know, that's true, but they also want to make money on their own service. I do think that this makes
00:20:12 ◼ ► it harder. Now. I just, I don't think Disney, I think Disney cares so much about this, that they
00:20:18 ◼ ► are willing to take a loss on this in the short term in order for the larger benefits. I would
00:20:29 ◼ ► But to go out with that, not say it's introductory, but they'll raise the price in two or three years,
00:20:38 ◼ ► they'll just have to raise the price later. But with this so aggressively with so much content,
00:20:48 ◼ ► this is, this is for you. And they had slides in their presentation showing the demographic reach
00:20:55 ◼ ► in terms of age and gender of their properties. And they're like, here it is for Disney.
00:21:00 ◼ ► Here it is for Pixar. Here it is for Marvel here, you know, and they went through them up here. It
00:21:04 ◼ ► is for star Wars. And then they did the final overlay, which is like, so here is our demographic
00:21:10 ◼ ► reach for the service as a whole. And that slide was basically like, it's every everybody, are you,
00:21:16 ◼ ► are you alive? Then we are going to hit you. Are you getting it yet? This isn't just one demographic
00:21:21 ◼ ► reach. Yeah. So I do think that in, in to put it in Apple terms, if I'm Apple, um, there's no way
00:21:29 ◼ ► there's no way that I can price my service above Disney plus and expect it to be taken seriously.
00:21:36 ◼ ► They might still do it, but like, I feel like they're going to have to dig deep. Like if they
00:21:42 ◼ ► want to grow, I also think, and Tim mentioned this last week. I also think if I look at this,
00:21:48 ◼ ► I think Apple really does. If Apple is really in on this and truly wants to compete with Disney,
00:21:56 ◼ ► with Netflix, with Warner media, if they want to be at that level, and I'm not sure they do,
00:22:08 ◼ ► That's got some originals and resell channels and just kind of be that. But if they want to be more,
00:22:14 ◼ ► if they really want to want to up their game and compete at this level, they're, you know,
00:22:20 ◼ ► Tim's point. And I agree with him is they're going to have to start buying, um, companies that have
00:22:24 ◼ ► intellectual property, right? Because Apple is, Apple is making deals with companies that
00:22:29 ◼ ► have intellectual property, like, you know, amazing stories or something like that. And with stars,
00:22:34 ◼ ► like not stars, the cable channel stars, like, you know, Reese Witherspoon, uh, to make shows.
00:22:40 ◼ ► Um, Disney owns star Wars and Marvel and the whole Disney intellectual property catalog.
00:22:47 ◼ ► And, and it makes you, it makes me think that if Apple really wants to play at that level,
00:23:17 ◼ ► weird thing where Sony says they're committed to it, but it's sort of like a very weird business.
00:23:21 ◼ ► Um, CBS and paramount, the whole Viacom stuff. Um, they could, they could swallow that if they,
00:23:27 ◼ ► if they wanted to like, they've got the money to buy some of these companies that are not,
00:23:44 ◼ ► It's not necessarily the blue chip stuff. Right. And we, and we, when I mentioned Warner, like,
00:23:48 ◼ ► uh, I had this discussion again and blue Disney has a lot of the blue chip stuff, but Warner,
00:24:00 ◼ ► Oh, Warner have an incredible, like, honestly, I said this before you put Harry Potter in this
00:24:05 ◼ ► conversation and we're, we're talking a different game now because that is a massive franchise. And,
00:24:10 ◼ ► and I don't know who I need to talk to at Warner to convince them to make a Harry Potter TV show.
00:24:22 ◼ ► that has been the HBO strategy, but that is a, that is a Warner property and they could do some
00:24:28 ◼ ► other stuff with that too. So they've got them and that's the power of it. Like, so, you know,
00:24:32 ◼ ► for Apple, I, I'm not sure they want to play at this level, but I, and I'm not sure they want the
00:24:38 ◼ ► overhead, the burden of owning like a whole studio. And I think this is going to be a real test
00:24:44 ◼ ► of what Apple really wants to do here because there's, there's two ways. Well, there's three
00:24:49 ◼ ► ways for them to go. One way for them to go is to be like, look, this is really just a hobby
00:24:54 ◼ ► and we just, we're going to make some shows, but it's not, uh, you know, it's not a major
00:24:59 ◼ ► tent pole of our business. And it's just part of, part of our thing. I, I think, I think you're
00:25:03 ◼ ► right, but that's the, that's the kind of option zero. Option one is we're going to be doing this
00:25:10 ◼ ► resell and also a bunch of originals and we'll build a catalog up over time, but what, and we're
00:25:15 ◼ ► going to be, you know, in playing in that game with the kind of niche, uh, streaming channels,
00:25:21 ◼ ► as well as our own reselling of other people's stuff. And that's what we're going to do,
00:25:25 ◼ ► which might be okay, but it's never going to set the world on fire or they need to load up and say,
00:25:32 ◼ ► well, we're in this, we're, we're in this to be an entertainment powerhouse. And because the fact is
00:25:37 ◼ ► the entertainment giants are enormous now and they're, they have gotten bigger Disney's buying
00:25:42 ◼ ► Fox, most of Fox, you know, Comcast buying Warner, like they are huge with deep pockets and they,
00:25:50 ◼ ► uh, and, and then they have intellectual property and they know that they need to win the streaming
00:25:56 ◼ ► wars or they're in deep trouble. And so Apple, if Apple wants to be in that fight at that level,
00:26:03 ◼ ► they can do it, but they're going to have to spend billions on intellectual property. They can't
00:26:07 ◼ ► make it work by just licensing some stuff here and there. So if they wanted to buy a bunch of,
00:26:13 ◼ ► you know, loose studios that are out there, then they could do that. Like if they want to buy
00:26:26 ◼ ► you can already see CBS on its own is sort of like, we're going to build a whole streaming
00:26:30 ◼ ► service on the back of Star Trek. And even though there's only one show there now, they're like five
00:26:34 ◼ ► shows in development. And that, that is not as effective for CBS because they've got nothing else
00:26:40 ◼ ► in that vein. Anyway, they're trying. Um, whereas Disney can say we've got Star Wars and Marvel and
00:26:49 ◼ ► Pixar and Disney and net geo, right? So, uh, it's a, it's a challenge for CBS as a smaller company
00:26:57 ◼ ► and, and Viacom with sister company, basically. Um, and they're, they're floating out there.
00:27:05 ◼ ► Apple needs to decide if it wants to step up. If I'm, um, anybody else. So Justin Marks, who is the
00:27:10 ◼ ► show runner of counterpart, uh, one of my favorite shows of the last decade, uh, two seasons on stars
00:27:16 ◼ ► and then canceled. And he was tweeting about this because it, you know, nobody could find his show.
00:27:22 ◼ ► Nobody knew about his show. Couldn't, it wasn't really marketed very well. Nobody could see it.
00:27:26 ◼ ► You have to sign up for this totally separate thing. And so he was coming from that perspective
00:27:30 ◼ ► when he said, if you were one of these like small players without the money to put in the game,
00:27:36 ◼ ► forget it, you know, he said, maybe I'm a little bit bitter, but forget it. And I think he's right.
00:27:42 ◼ ► I think, I think, um, Rightly or wrongly. And I don't think it's great. If you're, if you're a,
00:27:48 ◼ ► a niche player in like a genre, like, um, like shutter for horror or Brit box or am, or acorn
00:27:55 ◼ ► or crunchy roll, um, maybe right. Because that is a, you're, you're feeding a very specific audience.
00:28:02 ◼ ► But if you're sort of like stars and you're like, Oh, we just do shows that people like,
00:28:05 ◼ ► I don't know. I don't know if in the long run, if you're going to be able to make that work.
00:28:10 ◼ ► So that that's part of this and stars is I think Lions gate. So there's just a real question about
00:28:15 ◼ ► like, if these small entertainment companies are going to have to, if there's going to be a run of,
00:28:25 ◼ ► or if they're going to get picked off by the other big fish in this, which could also happen
00:28:30 ◼ ► Amazon and Apple. Yeah. But also, you know, Comcast and Netflix and, uh, and Disney and Warner.
00:28:38 ◼ ► Those are all out there too. I think that maybe it's because of stuff like this way that we didn't
00:28:46 ◼ ► find out any pricing information about Apple TV. Plus like it's a, it wouldn't have been the only
00:28:50 ◼ ► reason, but I reckon it's a reason. I am also starting to adjust my, um, my thinking on this.
00:28:57 ◼ ► I don't think that Apple TV plus will be straight up free, but I think you will get it with any
00:29:04 ◼ ► other service you pay for. So like if you pay for Apple music, you'll get it. Or if you pay for
00:29:11 ◼ ► Apple arcade, you'll get it. I think that's the most likely scenario. Honestly, if I, if I had
00:29:16 ◼ ► to pick one scenario right now, I would say that Apple video, Apple TV plus will cost something
00:29:22 ◼ ► like nine 99 or seven 99, but it will really not be that if you buy any other Apple service
00:29:32 ◼ ► that it'll be either free or it will be almost nothing, but maybe even free just so, you know,
00:29:39 ◼ ► Apple music subscribers get Apple TV plus and that, that fits actually it fits both models,
00:29:45 ◼ ► right? Because it fits the people who say they're going to give it away. And it fits the people who
00:29:49 ◼ ► say they can't give it away. They got to charge for it. Well, they'll do both. They'll give it
00:29:52 ◼ ► away. I don't think Nick. No, I agree. I agree. So they will charge you for it. If the it's the
00:29:58 ◼ ► literally the only Apple service you want, they will charge you for it. Uh, I think that's the
00:30:02 ◼ ► most likely scenario, but that they will either deeply discount or give away. If you are an
00:30:06 ◼ ► existing subscriber to something else, um, or maybe just like music or something like that.
00:30:12 ◼ ► And this is, it puts the Hulu deal that Spotify made into some extra context, right? Yes. Where
00:30:19 ◼ ► Spotify's biggest competitor is, uh, is starting a TV service, uh, that they may give away for free
00:30:32 ◼ ► differentiate on a music catalog. You can only jump differentiate on, on other stuff like, uh,
00:30:36 ◼ ► premium, uh, like TV shows that are exclusive or podcasts that are exclusive for Spotify side.
00:30:42 ◼ ► And they made the deal with Hulu where they're, you know, if you're a Spotify member, you can get
00:30:46 ◼ ► the ad supported version of Hulu, which still has a charge for free. And I right. It like,
00:30:52 ◼ ► that's the kind of way to survive right now is you gotta, you gotta do that because their
00:30:58 ◼ ► competitors totally going to do that. So it's, it's very interesting, very interesting stuff.
00:31:02 ◼ ► It is going to be a wild ride, but I think Apple, I think we need to watch Apple and see
00:31:13 ◼ ► Today's episode is brought to you by KiwiCo. When you're looking for fun activities for kids,
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00:32:04 ◼ ► what crate you got and what you thought of the pieces and the projects and the instructions and
00:32:09 ◼ ► that kind of stuff. So I've got the Tinker Crate here, which is for teenagers and up, and I am up,
00:32:23 ◼ ► and here in the packaging, electric motor with a battery. It's got a bunch of little gears and
00:32:29 ◼ ► little parts and it's got some cardboard pieces for particle board, maybe pieces for the legs.
00:32:35 ◼ ► And the idea is you get a little assembly project where you put the guy together piece by piece and
00:32:42 ◼ ► attach it all and you've made something and then you turn it loose in your house and it terrorizes
00:32:47 ◼ ► your cat. I think that's pretty much the plan and I haven't assembled it yet, but I suspect I will be
00:32:52 ◼ ► doing that this week. And it's adorable. And if you want a head, you can use basically provide
00:32:59 ◼ ► your own spherical object. So like stick a tennis ball on the top or the head is not functional.
00:33:04 ◼ ► The head is to just make it more personified. So you can use a tennis ball or a balloon or
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00:33:37 ◼ ► enjoy. Our thanks to KiwiCo for their support of upgrade and all of Relay FM. So I, every morning,
00:33:45 ◼ ► every Monday morning, I sit down and I plan out what we're going to talk about and I take a look
00:33:48 ◼ ► at the things you recommend and I take a look at the news and I had a whole document ready. And
00:33:52 ◼ ► then a couple of hours before we recorded today, a friend of the show, Guilherme Rambeau, who's at
00:33:56 ◼ ► 9to5Mac, published a, I'm going to say, Gherman-like report about iOS 13. This is a very interesting
00:34:07 ◼ ► report. It's full of tantalizing information. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Guilherme Rambeau and, and
00:34:14 ◼ ► Steve Trotton Smith have made their name by analyzing things that have been, that have been
00:34:21 ◼ ► sent out from Apple accidentally or hidden in places. This, that may be true here. He's not
00:34:30 ◼ ► revealing how he got this information, but it says, according to people familiar with the development,
00:34:34 ◼ ► which makes it seem like this is, uh, these guys have stepped up their game or people have
00:34:38 ◼ ► inside Apple have noticed them. I am expecting it's a combination of all of that, right? Like
00:34:45 ◼ ► knowing the way, cause as Steve Trotton Smith is credited with helping, uh, Guy with the article
00:34:50 ◼ ► and knowing how they work and the fact that Guy is now part of 9to5, I expect it as a combination
00:34:57 ◼ ► of all of that. Like that there is some code mining, there is some sources and that kind of
00:35:01 ◼ ► stuff. Um, but this is a, we're going to go through all the kind of the major things that
00:35:07 ◼ ► I mentioned in this article, but just at the top level, this feels like a very complete list of
00:35:11 ◼ ► things. Like the stuff that we're going through, I can imagine Apple standing on stage and saying,
00:35:16 ◼ ► this is iOS 13 and that being it. And that's when I say it's almost like Gorman, like in that it
00:35:22 ◼ ► reminds me of the way that Mark Gorman has done stuff in the past, especially at 9to5 Mac. He
00:35:27 ◼ ► would write lots of reports, like pretty much just like this one. Right. And this is not to, um,
00:35:33 ◼ ► belittle anything that's been done here, but it's just, I think it's actually a, uh, a compliment
00:35:38 ◼ ► because, you know, Mark Gorman kind of owned this space for a very long time. And I think it's
00:35:43 ◼ ► interesting to see, um, somebody else, uh, other people kind of stepping up and putting their name
00:35:50 ◼ ► on this stuff. And again, we will see what happens, right? Like we will see how right or wrong this
00:35:56 ◼ ► ends up being, but I feel like this is a, this feels like a list that I look at and be like,
00:36:01 ◼ ► yeah, that makes sense. So yeah, I think the only question I've got, I tend to believe what
00:36:08 ◼ ► they're reporting is probably true again with the caveat. And we mentioned this last week,
00:36:13 ◼ ► the caveat that things can change, right? Like there is a tent for this to be an iOS 13 doesn't
00:36:19 ◼ ► mean it will because something could happen and they could decide not to ship something.
00:36:23 ◼ ► It's entirely possible that things will fall out, but I'm inclined to believe that this is all real.
00:36:28 ◼ ► I am also inclined to believe that it's not necessarily everything. Um, but it's so right.
00:36:34 ◼ ► So, so I don't view it as maybe like a complete list, but that it is a list of things that are
00:36:39 ◼ ► currently planned to be in iOS 13. When we see it, when I say like, when I say it's a complete list,
00:36:45 ◼ ► it's like, you could show me this and I would be content with it. But like, I, I expect there's
00:36:49 ◼ ► more cause plus there's pieces that are completely missing from like, there's nothing here about
00:36:53 ◼ ► shortcuts and I'm expecting that they will do something with that, right? You know, there's
00:36:56 ◼ ► nothing here about marzipan and that's going to affect the iPad in other ways, but just as like a,
00:37:01 ◼ ► here are your tent pole features for iOS. I can see some of this stuff being the majority of it.
00:37:06 ◼ ► So let's go through it. System-wide dark mode, including a high contrast option similar to
00:37:16 ◼ ► High contrast is an option in Mac OS display settings, which basically puts big thick lines
00:37:22 ◼ ► or thicker lines around a lot of things. I actually use high contrast, um, because I like
00:37:28 ◼ ► the way it looks. Uh, you know, this, this to me feels like two things. You have a dark mode
00:37:34 ◼ ► for people that want to use it and then high contrast, which is another accessibility option
00:37:38 ◼ ► that is added in to go along with the dark mode. Um, system-wide dark mode is something people
00:37:44 ◼ ► wanted for a long time. It feels like something, it feels like it's something that's difficult to
00:37:50 ◼ ► implement, but feels like a low hanging fruit, right? It feels like something that makes a lot
00:37:55 ◼ ► of people very happy and would make your products look amazing on the OLED screens that they have.
00:38:00 ◼ ► Steve McLaughlin Yeah. Also the, since Mac and iOS are going to share apps and Mac has a dark mode,
00:38:11 ◼ ► Ben Lee Yep. Which makes perfect sense, right? Like it's like when you start tying, you know,
00:38:17 ◼ ► you feel like, um, you know, the meme of Charlie Day from Always Sunny with the string in the room,
00:38:22 ◼ ► right? And like you're just tired of putting all this stuff together. But when you start,
00:38:26 ◼ ► when you think about, um, when you think about Mazapan and then you think about all of the other
00:38:32 ◼ ► things that can, can come away from that, if you start thinking about there has to be a bridge
00:38:39 ◼ ► between iOS and the Mac, stuff like this starts to fall out. It's like, well, what do you do about
00:38:43 ◼ ► dark mode? Well, you have to have one is what you have to do. So, um, I think that's really,
00:38:48 ◼ ► that's really interesting. I'm excited for, for a dark mode. So this is one that is, okay,
00:38:55 ◼ ► multiple windows on the iPad. So this is something that Mark Gorman has been talking about for a
00:38:59 ◼ ► while, like windows on the iPad. Now I'm going to need to just read this quote from the article,
00:39:04 ◼ ► cause I can't, I don't think I can do a good job of summing it up. Right. So I'm just going to read
00:39:09 ◼ ► it. Each window will also be able to contain sheets that are initially attached to a portion
00:39:16 ◼ ► of the screen, but can be detached with a drag gesture, becoming a card that can be moved around
00:39:21 ◼ ► freely, similar to what an open source project called panel kit could do. These cards could be
00:39:27 ◼ ► stacked on top of each other and used as a depth effect to indicate which cards are on top and
00:39:32 ◼ ► which are on the bottom. Cards can be flung away to dismiss them. So I took a look at what, uh,
00:39:37 ◼ ► Rambo referenced the panel kit and the way that I would describe this thing is, you know, when you're
00:39:42 ◼ ► in an app and you get a little pop over, so maybe you type in the search field and you get a little
00:39:47 ◼ ► pop up and you can see the results falling down into it. Imagine being able to tap that and drag
00:39:52 ◼ ► it away. Right. So now it becomes its own little floating window over the top of the application.
00:39:59 ◼ ► And I will put a link in the show notes to the GitHub project panel kit, which has a little
00:40:03 ◼ ► animated gif, which can show, which shows you what it looks like. And it might give you an idea for
00:40:08 ◼ ► that. The thing that confuses me though, and there still isn't really any kind of, um, explanation
00:40:15 ◼ ► for like, what a windows mean? What does that mean? Right. And, and, uh, I feel like nobody
00:40:21 ◼ ► really knows yet. Right. Like it's like, Oh, there's going to be windows. Yeah. But what
00:40:26 ◼ ► does that mean though? Like that's the key part that right now it feels like nobody's seen it,
00:40:35 ◼ ► who built panel kit works at Apple now, which is funny. So, so, um, I, uh, yes, we had this
00:40:45 ◼ ► conversation a while ago about like, what is a multi window world look like? It's presumably
00:40:49 ◼ ► not the Mac. Although one of the things that this enables is, uh, a conceptual window, Myke,
00:40:56 ◼ ► which is, uh, I don't know what that is, but the idea is that you say, okay, my app has a window
00:41:01 ◼ ► and it's a marzipan app. Um, it doesn't necessarily mean that that window behaves the same way on the
00:41:06 ◼ ► Mac as on iOS potentially. Right. Like on the Mac, it might be a window like on the Mac,
00:41:11 ◼ ► right? Because windows, windows could just be the renaming of what we currently have, right.
00:41:20 ◼ ► right? Like it doesn't mean free floating with open closed dialogues. Like it's, you know,
00:41:25 ◼ ► I think more likely it means something that's more like what we think of as iPad multitasking,
00:41:30 ◼ ► where you've got, uh, tiles of, of w instead of different apps, you've got tiles of different
00:41:42 ◼ ► I cannot imagine, right. Which is what people think. Like there is a way that you could see
00:41:55 ◼ ► well, sure. People are thinking about, about the Mac or windows. And I think this is much more,
00:42:00 ◼ ► what is the iPad? What's Apple's conception for a next generation kind of like flexible interface
00:42:06 ◼ ► and the, why do you need windows in an app? And the best example and Safari does this now,
00:42:10 ◼ ► but the best example is what if I have a text editor with two documents I want to have open
00:42:15 ◼ ► three documents I want to have open. You can't really do that. You can switch among them,
00:42:19 ◼ ► but it's like not the system doesn't let you do what you can do on the Mac, which is just
00:42:23 ◼ ► have multiple documents open and they can be in a picker. That could be in tabs. They could be,
00:42:28 ◼ ► yes, they could be an overlapping windows. And I would be surprised if Apple says, sure,
00:42:32 ◼ ► just make a bunch of windows and have them overlap. I doubt that is going to be the approach, but,
00:42:38 ◼ ► uh, the, the little floaters that have taken the popovers and dragging them out is interesting
00:42:44 ◼ ► because that is going to create a layered interface potentially, but you would have to want to do that
00:42:49 ◼ ► to yourself. And in some apps that would be super convenient because you, you want a floater that
00:42:54 ◼ ► you can refer to or tap on, but you want to be able to kind of move it around where it needs to be.
00:43:00 ◼ ► So it isn't obscuring content and other places. And it would then also be analogous to the,
00:43:04 ◼ ► to a floating palette on the Mac, which would be a positive new undo gesture. So this would be a
00:43:13 ◼ ► three finger tap onto the keyboard and then sliding left and right to undo, undo or redo.
00:43:19 ◼ ► Now. Okay. Okay. Okay. All right. Nope. All right. All right. I'm, I'm unhappy with this
00:43:33 ◼ ► Right now, this is a great idea for text. Like, yes, brilliant, but it doesn't solve the problem,
00:43:39 ◼ ► right? Like the problem is not solved here. You've just augmented the issue. Uh, if there's no
00:43:46 ◼ ► keyboard, you still have to shake to undo presumably. And, and that, you know, the thing
00:43:52 ◼ ► I use shake to undo for the most is the, is like a misfiling or misleading, uh, an email message
00:44:01 ◼ ► and mail where I swipe the wrong way and I'm like, Oh no. And then I have to shake my iPad,
00:44:05 ◼ ► which is ridiculous. I'll also point out there's already an undo button on the keyboard. Yeah.
00:44:12 ◼ ► It's already in the little quick bar. I don't understand. I don't understand this. I don't
00:44:17 ◼ ► really know what, I don't think it's solving the, what I will say is I have like, I have like a
00:44:23 ◼ ► whole big thing I wanted to talk about with this undo thing at some point. And I just, I haven't
00:44:27 ◼ ► got the energy for it, but like, I think that the undo situation on iOS is more of a perceived
00:44:34 ◼ ► problem than an actual problem. Um, I think people think it's an issue more than actually is an
00:44:38 ◼ ► issue because it is possible to undo text with the keyboard. Right. But like people know that the
00:44:45 ◼ ► shake to undo exists. So they're like, Oh, shake to undo. That's ridiculous. It was like, yeah, but
00:44:50 ◼ ► like, what do you do? Right. You want to put in control center? Like where are you going to put
00:44:54 ◼ ► it? Now, if you have a keyboard, you can use commands that most of the time, but there has
00:44:59 ◼ ► to be some kind of like system wide way of doing it. This still isn't that this doesn't solve the
00:45:04 ◼ ► problem. It's nice to have more ways to do it. It's nice to do more like track pad like things
00:45:10 ◼ ► with the, I, with, uh, with iOS, but this is not a fixed to undo, which is probably not too big of
00:45:17 ◼ ► a problem in the first place. I mean, I know that shaking your iPad is silly, but like, it doesn't
00:45:23 ◼ ► bother me that much in all honesty, but that's my, that's my feeling on the whole undo situation.
00:45:29 ◼ ► But I don't think that this gesture fixes what people want fixed because it's for the keyboard
00:45:35 ◼ ► is redundant, right? Like it's, it's a redundant thing. It's a button, which is way easier than
00:45:39 ◼ ► a gesture anyway. And it's also, now we have a three finger gesture. I, I'm, that is a very,
00:45:45 ◼ ► even if they, they say, Oh, well, they'll put up a thing that teaches you how to use it. Like
00:45:49 ◼ ► still counting the fingers, it's kind of a power user gesture. Yeah. There's already the two finger
00:45:55 ◼ ► put on the keyboard to move the cursor around the screen. So now we're going to add a three finger
00:45:59 ◼ ► gesture that will let you undo back and forth rather than just tapping the undo button. It does.
00:46:04 ◼ ► I mean, again, maybe it's the way that this has been reported. And then when we see it, we'll,
00:46:08 ◼ ► we'll, we'll say, Oh, that makes much more sense, but it's like, Oh, it's actually system-wide
00:46:12 ◼ ► right. Like you can do it in any app and it will work right. Like whatever we'll say, but even then
00:46:17 ◼ ► it's an obscure, you know, multi-finger gesture. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Uh, Safari to automatically
00:46:31 ◼ ► really wanted, but I am really keen to see what the details are of that. Like, how does it know?
00:46:42 ◼ ► just always do it that Apple provides or what I've wanted for a while is what Safari on the
00:46:47 ◼ ► desktop has, which is a whole bunch of per domain settings that you, that you can change. And you
00:46:54 ◼ ► can say, don't autoplay video on this site and all of that. And that's what I'd really like to see in
00:46:59 ◼ ► Safari on the iPad so that I could say, always load the desktop version of this site block,
00:47:12 ◼ ► Is that you get frustrated that a site keeps pushing you into mobile view and you just say,
00:47:16 ◼ ► don't ever do that again. Well, here's what I would like. I would like that. So I could tell it,
00:47:20 ◼ ► but I want Apple to use their differential privacy data to know if people are doing this and then
00:47:26 ◼ ► just do it. Oh yeah. That's that's nice. If, if some, everybody forces it into desktop mode,
00:47:31 ◼ ► we're going to just make it a rule that that gets forced into desktop mode. So then for most users,
00:47:35 ◼ ► they never need to set the, uh, set the websites themselves, right? Because it should just be doing
00:47:41 ◼ ► it on its own. Yeah. Cause it'll learn from user behavior. And I, that would be fantastic.
00:47:46 ◼ ► It's a question about iOS productivity, right? That's one of the big things here. And there's
00:47:50 ◼ ► a bunch of stuff we've spoken about here, which will make huge, you know, they're like,
00:47:54 ◼ ► they're big points. And there was some stuff about like trying to come up with collaboration systems.
00:48:03 ◼ ► Font management is one of these things like custom keyboards that I never thought I would see
00:48:12 ◼ ► in iOS. You can do it now, but you have to install a profile that contains fonts, which is bananas.
00:48:19 ◼ ► be able to have a font picker and there'll be links to it and you can, you'll be able to install
00:48:24 ◼ ► custom fonts. This will make me so happy, Jason, cause like I have, you know, I, I deal with a lot
00:48:30 ◼ ► of paperwork and I like to use custom fonts and I have to install these like 10 individual profiles
00:48:36 ◼ ► using like an app, like any font every single time I get a new device and I always forget and it takes
00:48:42 ◼ ► forever. And it's just like the worst. I hate it. I only do it like once a year, but I put it off
00:48:46 ◼ ► for like six months. Right. Yep. And so I will be very happy to be able to do real font, real font
00:48:53 ◼ ► management on iOS. See, finally, you'll be able to do real font management, but like I am genuinely
00:48:58 ◼ ► excited about it. Um, upgrades to mail, including smart categorization features and a read later queue
00:49:06 ◼ ► who woke up at Apple and decided that they were going to try and make an actual like 2019 mail app.
00:49:16 ◼ ► What is going on? Like this is wild to me. I'm, I'm very pleased about it. Right. Like,
00:49:22 ◼ ► so smart characterization would be like, this is a newsletter. This is important, right? That the
00:49:27 ◼ ► stuff that you see in Gmail, the stuff that you see in lots of third party apps, read later is
00:49:33 ◼ ► snoozing, right? But these types of features coming to mail, that is really exciting because
00:49:39 ◼ ► do you know what everybody, all mail applications are bad and Apple could make theirs a lot better
00:49:45 ◼ ► than it is already. And a lot of us just use mail on iOS, right? A lot of us do not chase the endless
00:49:52 ◼ ► trying to find the ideal mail client. And I just use mail and it's not very good and I would love
00:49:58 ◼ ► for it to be better. And this, this is the type of stuff they should be. These are like table stakes
00:50:03 ◼ ► for making a modern mail app is using smarts and adding features. So very excited about that.
00:50:11 ◼ ► New gestures to allow for the selection of multiple items in collection and table views.
00:50:15 ◼ ► Basically this means a gesture, which is similar to clicking and dragging. So like if you're in
00:50:20 ◼ ► like numbers or whatever you like click and drag. So it looks like they're trying to create gestures
00:50:24 ◼ ► to make that sort of stuff easier and being able to drag and drop that around. I like the sound
00:50:28 ◼ ► of that, right? Like let's try and be a bit more nimble here. And we have 10 point devices. I know
00:50:34 ◼ ► that this stuff gets complicated, but these are power user features for work stuff. So I think
00:50:41 ◼ ► that sounds fun. Uh, redesigned reminders app, new volume display UI, which is brilliant. So no longer
00:50:47 ◼ ► that big square in the middle would hope, or maybe it's just a bigger square. We don't know, right?
00:50:52 ◼ ► Like maybe, maybe the volume thing is now just the entire screen. Who knows? Uh, so yeah, they're kind
00:50:59 ◼ ► of, I think the big things to take away from Guilherme's brilliant report, I would say. Yeah,
00:51:04 ◼ ► the redesign reminders app he also throws in is going to be on the Mac too, which makes me believe
00:51:08 ◼ ► that that'll be a marzipanified app, um, this fall, which is fun. I'm going to miss when they
00:51:14 ◼ ► give this an actual name. I like marzipan as a name. Unless it never has a name. I mean,
00:51:26 ◼ ► we'll just start calling it UI kit on the Mac and move away from marzipan. But I do, I do love
00:51:31 ◼ ► marzipan. But Jason, is there anything missing for you from this report? Is there stuff that you
00:51:36 ◼ ► should have seen that didn't? I was going to say, and some of this has to do with the nature of
00:51:41 ◼ ► their sources, right? Like they are detailing some very specific system level things. However,
00:51:48 ◼ ► I will just point out that this report doesn't seem to mention anything about changes to
00:51:53 ◼ ► the files app, to how the iPad accesses files, to if we're going to see the iPad pro with that nice
00:52:02 ◼ ► USB-C port have more ability to access USB-C devices, including devices that have file systems
00:52:08 ◼ ► on them. Uh, one of my pet peeves about iOS right now. And I just, I just noticed it's not here,
00:52:13 ◼ ► not mentioned at all. Not mentioned that it's not coming, just not mentioned. So I'm just going to
00:52:19 ◼ ► put it out there that that's one of those areas, uh, file stuff and USB-C in general that I,
00:52:24 ◼ ► you know, audio stuff goes in there too. How, how do they handle microphones and other external
00:52:29 ◼ ► devices that are sort of handled in a very simple way now, because of the assumptions made in the
00:52:34 ◼ ► early days about an iPhone OS that are maybe not as valid with, uh, with the iPad. I'm just saying,
00:52:40 ◼ ► it'll be really sad if, uh, this all comes out and I'm going to have to wait another two years
00:52:53 ◼ ► I'm going to choose to believe that there are lots of files changes, and they just got missed
00:52:59 ◼ ► in this report because I can't, I can't conceive of there being no updates to that system because
00:53:06 ◼ ► it needs them. It like desperately needs them. There are just bugs and weirdness in it and it
00:53:13 ◼ ► could be and should be and needs to be a lot better. Uh, it's like just a fundamental, and I'm,
00:53:18 ◼ ► I'm not like one of these people that feels like they have to fundamentally rethink the way that
00:53:24 ◼ ► files are. Like, I don't think you need to go to a file-based structure completely, right? Like,
00:53:29 ◼ ► I don't mind the hybrid system that they've got right now. Like sometimes you think in apps,
00:53:33 ◼ ► sometimes you think in files because that's how my brain thinks. Um, maybe because I've just
00:53:38 ◼ ► gotten used to iOS, but they're just the files that needs a lot of work and I want to see Apple
00:53:45 ◼ ► work on that. But I will say this report is making me very excited for June. There's a lot of stuff
00:53:52 ◼ ► in there that I think I'm going to have a lot of fun playing with. So I'm really excited.
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00:55:59 ◼ ► Jason, I want to talk to you about iTunes. This is, uh, this has been the talk of the town over
00:56:06 ◼ ► the last week. We all kind of figured this was coming. It even came up on the show last week,
00:56:11 ◼ ► right? Like hence the, like the title of the whole episode kind of being about iTunes and QuickTime
00:56:16 ◼ ► and all that sort of stuff. Um, but then there was another report at nine to five Mac by friend of the
00:56:22 ◼ ► show, Guillermo Rambo. This is the Guillermo power hour today on, on upgrade. Um, that the next major
00:56:28 ◼ ► Mac iOS version will include standalone music podcasts and TV apps. We knew the TV app was
00:56:33 ◼ ► coming. Books will get major redesign. Uh, there's some basic details in there plus some icons as
00:56:38 ◼ ► well. Kind of just like more kind of like fuel for the fire. Uh, that something like this is going to
00:56:44 ◼ ► be, uh, happening, which means the breakup of iTunes, a thing that we've spoken about forever.
00:56:49 ◼ ► Um, there was a very good debate, I think, uh, on ATP this week, um, with a sentiment, which I
00:57:01 ◼ ► about iTunes. And I've been thinking this myself a little bit recently where I, when it, when it's
00:57:07 ◼ ► dead, what actually happens. And we spent some time talking about this last week on connected
00:57:13 ◼ ► as well, where, you know, like me and Federico, we just use Apple music. Right. And if there's
00:57:22 ◼ ► an Apple music app, it's going to be better than the really bad Apple music support that iTunes has.
00:57:28 ◼ ► Right. Cause it's very bad. It's it's, it's super weird in places. The searching is terrible. The
00:57:33 ◼ ► way that you browse feels, it feels like it's loading a web browser inside of iTunes, which I'm
00:57:38 ◼ ► sure is what's happening. Like it's, it's a nightmare, not a nightmare, but it's not nice.
00:57:48 ◼ ► the iPad app on my Mac, but I understand. So you've got people like Steven and then people
00:57:53 ◼ ► like Marco people like John. Um, I don't know how much do you use like these types of features of
00:57:58 ◼ ► like the more typical iTunes features, adding in your own music, doing more categorization,
00:58:03 ◼ ► looking at more information, like all that kind of stuff. And so the idea over the last few years of
00:58:10 ◼ ► it's time to break up iTunes was build an actual new music player, right? Like that's what this
00:58:17 ◼ ► has always been for the last few years. Like pull the music features out of iTunes, pull the podcast
00:58:22 ◼ ► features out of iTunes, make apps for them. It wasn't until now, because now this is what's
00:58:29 ◼ ► probably going to happen is let's just have the iOS app. Like no one was thinking that because
00:58:34 ◼ ► that wasn't a thing we thought about until last year that this would even be a thing. So now when
00:58:40 ◼ ► the conversation is iTunes is going to get broken up into a bunch of distinct applications, everyone
00:58:45 ◼ ► knows what that means. Now what that means now is we're getting the iOS versions. Yeah. I think at
00:58:52 ◼ ► the core of what Marco talked about and, um, and what John also talked about, and I liked what John
00:58:59 ◼ ► had to say. I thought that was, I was building up all sorts of comments while listening to Marco,
00:59:04 ◼ ► and then John said them all. So I was like, all right, okay, then we're good. Um, I think the
00:59:10 ◼ ► reality, right, reality hits here. This is the cold reality of it's not going to be some idealized,
00:59:18 ◼ ► marzipan and it's going to be maybe new updated versions of what's in iOS 12, but that's what it's
00:59:25 ◼ ► going to be. And you get that reality and suddenly it's not your ideal, uh, dream app. It is what you
00:59:33 ◼ ► already have been using on the iPad all along. If you have an iPad. And I think at the core of it,
00:59:39 ◼ ► if I'm going to dissect what Marco and John were both saying, especially it's the, a lack of
00:59:55 ◼ ► for users who demand more depth than the average user is the way I would maybe put it like that
01:00:03 ◼ ► Apple in the past designed apps that were for the masses, but also had tweaky features for the power
01:00:14 ◼ ► users and that Apple of the last decade feels much more like an Apple that is not interested in the
01:00:20 ◼ ► tweaky features or is too overwhelmed with whoever is building their apps to devote time to that,
01:00:28 ◼ ► that they struggle to update and build their apps as it is, which I think I agree actually,
01:00:33 ◼ ► I think is actually high on my list of my problems that I have with the way Apple has run today is
01:00:40 ◼ ► that they seem to not be as focused on their apps as they should be, that the apps they provide are
01:00:46 ◼ ► not as good as they should be and that they could be better. And it's not the fault of the people
01:00:50 ◼ ► working on them. I get the distinct impression that there are not as many people working on them
01:00:54 ◼ ► and there's not as much attention devoted to them as there should be at a top level priority level.
01:00:59 ◼ ► But I see that point, which is Apple partly distorted by the fact that Apple has been making
01:01:06 ◼ ► mobile apps and the perception and John Syracuse had talked about this a lot on that ATP episode.
01:01:11 ◼ ► The perception is mobile means simplified. And there are lots of good reasons for that. I think
01:01:17 ◼ ► last week it came up on Upgrade with John that I was talking about the difference between Apple
01:01:24 ◼ ► making decisions because Apple's been focused on mobile and it comes from that root decision of
01:01:29 ◼ ► the iPhone OS is where iOS came from. It came from the small screen iPhone and Apple shifting
01:01:36 ◼ ► its philosophy because the user it was trying to reach in 2000 is not the user it's trying to
01:01:40 ◼ ► reach in 2019 or even in this decade. And something like Smart Playlist feels like a last decade Apple
01:01:46 ◼ ► to me, which is that Apple seems to have decided, regardless of the iPhone thing, that it doesn't
01:02:02 ◼ ► David: Apple don't make products for the crazy ones anymore. They actually make them for everybody.
01:02:10 ◼ ► Chris: Yeah, I mean, this goes back to something that we've talked about a lot, which is
01:02:14 ◼ ► the Apple of today is reaching an audience that is massively larger than the Apple of a decade ago
01:02:20 ◼ ► and even more so of two decades ago. And I think the problem is that that means I don't
01:02:29 ◼ ► think the size of the power user base has changed accordingly. I think that as a percentage it keeps
01:02:43 ◼ ► tweaky stuff. The problem is if you're one of the people who uses the tweaky stuff, it's frustrating.
01:02:57 ◼ ► I was talking to ATP as I was listening to it because I actually do agree with the majority
01:03:03 ◼ ► of what Marco was saying, but the power user stuff exists in the same way on iOS. Like the
01:03:08 ◼ ► way he is describing himself being a power user on the Mac, I feel that way about iOS. Like I know
01:03:16 ◼ ► the things you do that aren't shown. I know the keyboard shortcuts that exist that people don't
01:03:23 ◼ ► think exist. I know the way that you would do a specific drag and drop to get this to work. I know
01:03:31 ◼ ► how to get shortcuts to work the way that I want. It is nowhere near as complex. It is nowhere near
01:03:37 ◼ ► as surfaceable. The power user stuff is easy to find on the Mac. But there are those types,
01:03:44 ◼ ► it's not gone from iOS, it's very different. There are these types of power user features,
01:03:53 ◼ ► because I'm using them. David; Yeah, they're different and they don't go as low level as some
01:03:59 ◼ ► of the stuff does. Marco does a lot of his work and I do a lot of my work with shell scripts and
01:04:03 ◼ ► things that are running that iOS doesn't do that. And that's frustrating because you do hit a wall.
01:04:09 ◼ ► But you're right, there are power user features. David; And the proportions are very different.
01:04:16 ◼ ► David; But I think the core problem here is Apple's philosophy of what its apps should be. And the
01:04:23 ◼ ► fact that Apple is also a, you know, as a company kind of a control freak, which means they spend a
01:04:29 ◼ ► lot of time talking about it wouldn't be a problem if any app could have access to the Apple Music
01:04:33 ◼ ► Library. Because then you could just write an app that was better for power users that would tweak
01:04:38 ◼ ► it. And that would be an alternative. But there isn't an alternative. And the thing you've got is
01:04:43 ◼ ► sanded down to this amazing smoothness. But it also means that it's like a featureless surface
01:04:48 ◼ ► and you can't get a toehold. You can't get a grip if you're somebody who's trying to do something a
01:04:53 ◼ ► little bit out of alignment with what they envision the use of their app as being. And I can see that
01:04:59 ◼ ► at the same time. You know, and this is me being a little optimistic here, but Apple has spent the
01:05:04 ◼ ► last 10 years building a, or 15 years really almost behind the scenes, building a completely
01:05:12 ◼ ► new operating system, a completely new app platform, modifying that operating system to
01:05:16 ◼ ► work on larger screens with the iPad, dealing with the early days of the smartphone era where it was
01:05:22 ◼ ► a huge arms race in terms of feature development. And now it's more mature, but back then it wasn't.
01:05:28 ◼ ► And they've got all that going on and they need to write versions of their apps for this new
01:05:33 ◼ ► platform and they're maintaining the Mac. And is it any wonder that the Mac stuff got left by the
01:05:41 ◼ ► side of the road, largely? It's not. But we live in an era now where the arms race for smartphone
01:05:46 ◼ ► stuff has lessened, that Apple is aggressively moving toward this single app platform across
01:05:55 ◼ ► its operating systems. And I think that's a real opportunity. I think that's an opportunity
01:06:10 ◼ ► that means that it's able to invest that effort in stuff that will be seen on the Mac and the iPad too,
01:06:18 ◼ ► in a way that maybe it didn't do when it was so focused on keeping the iPhone pushing forward.
01:06:26 ◼ ► And I think that could benefit Mac users and iPad users and we'll see, right? It could be the same
01:06:32 ◼ ► old story, but I feel like there's at least a ghost of a chance that now that Apple doesn't have to
01:06:38 ◼ ► either implement the same feature twice in two different code bases or somewhat shared code bases,
01:06:43 ◼ ► but you get my point, like, "Oh, we need to update this feature for the Mac and for iOS."
01:06:52 ◼ ► With Marzipan, this era, that ends. That ends. And instead, whoever's in charge of "reminders"
01:07:01 ◼ ► writes one app and it deploys on the Mac and it deploys on iOS. And for Apple Music, I think,
01:07:13 ◼ ► the Mac metaphors will be extended to the iPad as well when we talk about tear-off popovers
01:07:19 ◼ ► and things like that. And the iPad will become more capable too, because now you're able to
01:07:24 ◼ ► target two platforms. Now, if you're thinking, "I might write an iPad, I might focus on the iPad
01:07:29 ◼ ► version of my app," or, "This is an app that really requires the iPad," you're like, "Eh, iPad,
01:07:34 ◼ ► I'm not really going to go there." But if suddenly you can write that app and you can target the Mac
01:07:37 ◼ ► and the iPad simultaneously, that's a way bigger market. And I feel optimistic that developers of
01:07:46 ◼ ► these kind of apps are going to look at Marzipan and say, "Oh, this is great. I can make an app
01:07:50 ◼ ► that runs on the iPad and the Mac." And no, it may not feel like a classic Mac app, but it may get
01:07:55 ◼ ► more better apps on the platforms. And that part is good. So, I'm not saying that people who use
01:08:03 ◼ ► Apple Music on the Mac this fall are not going to be like, "Ew, gross. What is this thing?" It's
01:08:09 ◼ ► totally going to be a bumpy ride, even if they add features to it. But in the long run, I think that
01:08:15 ◼ ► there are a lot of positives from the Mac. I don't disagree with Marco that one of the great
01:08:22 ◼ ► concerns here is that the Mac just becomes an operating system that doesn't have any of those
01:08:30 ◼ ► features that appeal to people who want to dive a little deeper. And I hope that Apple will take
01:08:35 ◼ ► this opportunity, now that they've rejiggered their app platform, to let Mac and iPad users
01:08:43 ◼ ► who want a little bit more get a little bit more out of it. Now that they're out of this
01:08:48 ◼ ► decade-long period where they've been building a second operating system and a second app platform
01:08:53 ◼ ► and in this huge arms race with Android, that starting from now, they can actually put a little
01:08:58 ◼ ► more time into that stuff. It would be just a great waste and a shame if, effectively, the Mac
01:09:05 ◼ ► becomes just a different screen size target for iOS, right? Like, that would just be a waste.
01:09:18 ◼ ► I also think it would be a shame if the power given to a user with a 12-inch MacBook Air
01:09:26 ◼ ► was not given to me. Oh, 100%. You know I'm coming at it from that point, Jason. I care about the
01:09:32 ◼ ► most, right? And that's why I am excited. I'm in the club of people who are excited about the
01:09:37 ◼ ► possibility of Marzipan because of what it could do to my iPad, right? Like, all of this potential
01:09:55 ◼ ► Also, by the way, we're talking a lot about iTunes and Apple Music. Like, the podcast app on the Mac
01:10:09 ◼ ► in Marzipan if he can, and that will be even better. But there are lots of other benefits here.
01:10:15 ◼ ► I do think there's a lot of mystery about what happens with device sync and does that go away.
01:10:21 ◼ ► What I'd like to see, I mean, obviously iTunes is going to stay around hidden in a folder somewhere
01:10:26 ◼ ► for a while or downloadable or whatever it is, but what I'd like to see, I think there are some
01:10:30 ◼ ► fairly basic things that Apple could do in iOS and macOS to make all of the things that currently
01:10:35 ◼ ► exist in terms of—all or almost all of the things that exist in terms of device management
01:10:40 ◼ ► that people might want could just be taken out and put in the OS. Like, in terms of—maybe
01:10:47 ◼ ► you get file access, you know, if they really do have the ability to, like, share files so I could
01:10:56 ◼ ► see the contents of my iPad and drag a file into it, do I need iTunes to do that? Or could these
01:11:02 ◼ ► devices just talk to each other? And you can airdrop now, but I wonder if there are some other
01:11:06 ◼ ► ways of doing things just to keep them in sync. So there's other stuff they can do. I don't think
01:11:10 ◼ ► we're rid entirely of iTunes. Windows is still a big question, is what are they going to do on
01:11:15 ◼ ► Windows for this? They could just keep iTunes for Windows around forever, I don't know. Or they
01:11:21 ◼ ► could go to a web interface for most of it and reduce the Windows app to a device-syncing app.
01:11:26 ◼ ► There's some details here that we're going to have to deal with. But there is a lot of potential
01:11:32 ◼ ► benefit, but there's no doubt, you know, any time you go through a change like this, there's going
01:11:39 ◼ ► Syracuse in that ATP episode came down basically the same place I've come down on iTunes Match or
01:11:46 ◼ ► people who don't subscribe to Apple Music, which is, I don't see how it's a, it's actually a big
01:11:53 ◼ ► progression for iOS as well to let the music app accept audio files and put them in the library and
01:12:01 ◼ ► then upload them if you're using iTunes Match or Apple Music and add them to your collection.
01:12:05 ◼ ► Like, that's not an earth-shattering UI change to do to that app. And then you've got the ability to
01:12:13 ◼ ► open a Mac with the music app and add your library and have it just work, you know, as if you had
01:12:20 ◼ ► synced it using iTunes for people who don't use Apple Music. I feel like that's a feature that,
01:12:26 ◼ ► if it's not there this fall, will probably be there eventually. And then, and that's an example
01:12:32 ◼ ► of something that presumably would come over to iOS and would be a benefit for if you've ever
01:12:37 ◼ ► bought like an indie album on Bandcamp or something and gotten a zip file and been like,
01:12:43 ◼ ► "What do I do with this on iOS?" And the answer is, there's nothing you can do with it. You can
01:12:47 ◼ ► unzip it, but then you've just got some MP3 files. You can't get them in your music library that,
01:12:51 ◼ ► from that direction. It would be nice if that was, that was a new feature of iOS. That would
01:12:55 ◼ ► be a good thing. -I know that this is going to come up a lot. Like, this isn't the last time
01:12:59 ◼ ► we're going to talk about this. -Oh boy. -Because it's actually, it's not about iTunes, right? We
01:13:04 ◼ ► all see this, right? Like, this is not, this has nothing to do with iTunes. -In Microcosm, it is
01:13:09 ◼ ► the story of what's going to happen this fall. -Yeah. -And progressively, but the big blow is
01:13:14 ◼ ► going to happen this fall when a new version of macOS ships and it's got a whole bunch of apps
01:13:18 ◼ ► that come from iOS and they're not going to be, you know, even if they kind of look like
01:13:23 ◼ ► Mac, they're not going to be the same. They're going to be really different. -And again,
01:13:26 ◼ ► you know, I don't want to have to keep reiterating this constantly. This is so much more than all of
01:13:31 ◼ ► that. Like, this is the future of Apple one way or another because, like, we believe, right, starts
01:13:40 ◼ ► here, then we get ARM Macs. Then what happens? And right, you know, there was that Goermann report a
01:13:46 ◼ ► few months ago where he spoke about, like, it's iPad this year, but then next year it's iPhone,
01:13:52 ◼ ► and the year after that it's universal applications, right? Like, this starts now. It's, you know,
01:14:00 ◼ ► it's kind of started last year, right? We started to find out about it, but now it's like, okay,
01:14:04 ◼ ► we're building up to, like, everything changing in June, good and bad. So, whilst we are talking
01:14:13 ◼ ► about iTunes specifically, it's so much more than that, and there's gonna be a lot of, like,
01:14:19 ◼ ► people's identities being challenged. -Yeah, yeah, for sure. This is going to be, in fact, and for,
01:14:28 ◼ ► I know so many of our listeners, it's great, by the way, I am, you know, teenager and up, right?
01:14:33 ◼ ► I'm up. This is going to be like the OS X transition was in a lot of ways, where in a two,
01:14:41 ◼ ► three-year period, the Mac of, you know, before and the Mac of after is almost unrecognizable.
01:14:48 ◼ ► And when you're in that, and then you get past it and you're like, oh yeah, this is my Mac now.
01:14:53 ◼ ► But when you're in that period, it's weird and it's rough and it does challenge your identity,
01:14:58 ◼ ► because you're like, I always do it this way. Like, there were so many people when Mac OS X
01:15:01 ◼ ► came out that they're like, why does the Apple menu not show the contents of a folder or an
01:15:05 ◼ ► alias that I put somewhere in the file system? And like, as an OS X user today, you'd be like,
01:15:09 ◼ ► that's bizarre. -I don't even know what you're talking about. -Why would the Apple menu do that?
01:15:11 ◼ ► -I have no idea what you're talking about. -But that's what it did under classic Mac OS,
01:15:15 ◼ ► and people were really bent out of shape about it. And it's gonna be, I mean, that's just a silly
01:15:19 ◼ ► example, but like, yes, it is your identity as a person who is confident with your technology,
01:15:25 ◼ ► who has spent maybe years bending the technology to do exactly what you want it to do in the way
01:15:31 ◼ ► you want to do it. You've bent it, it's bent you a little bit, you have come to a comfort level,
01:15:37 ◼ ► and then Apple is gonna roll in over the next two or three years and make you really uncomfortable.
01:15:47 ◼ ► and I think there will be a lot of frustration. I think the good news, and I got to say this based on
01:15:51 ◼ ► my history in all the chip transitions and the OS transition that have happened on this platform,
01:15:57 ◼ ► on Apple's platforms in the past, the good news is, if you can learn to balance your enthusiasm
01:16:04 ◼ ► for the new, you've been accustomed, I mean, maybe you've already taken a hit with the Mac
01:16:10 ◼ ► books over the last three years, but generally you're accustomed to this enthusiasm for the new,
01:16:14 ◼ ► "Oh, I want to get the new, I want to get the latest and greatest." If you can temper that
01:16:17 ◼ ► a little bit, you can survive a transition because nobody's making you move. And that's an important
01:16:23 ◼ ► point here is that, you know, if one of the things that happens in these transitions is people stay
01:16:29 ◼ ► behind for a while, and I would not be shocked if that happens here, where people are like,
01:16:34 ◼ ► "You know what? I'm gonna keep my old iMac that still runs Mojave, and I'm gonna stay there for
01:16:40 ◼ ► a while with my 32-bit apps and with my stuff that isn't from iOS and with my iTunes, and I'm
01:16:45 ◼ ► just gonna hang out here for a while." And that happens in big transitions, and that's okay. Like,
01:16:51 ◼ ► we had devices running classic Mac OS for years at Macworld because we, like, they were where our
01:17:00 ◼ ► page layout got done, and they just didn't want to move because, like, the software wasn't ready,
01:17:09 ◼ ► and it was a funny moment where the editors had been living on OS X for, like, four years,
01:17:13 ◼ ► and then the production team moved to OS X, and they're like, "How does this work?" And we're
01:17:17 ◼ ► like, "Oh, yeah. Let me tell you all about it," because we had been living it. That's gonna happen,
01:17:23 ◼ ► and it's gonna get frustrating, but if you can learn to temper your desire to push forward and
01:17:30 ◼ ► use the latest and greatest, it can serve you well in transitions like this. Don't, if you've
01:17:35 ◼ ► got something vital that you do and it's jeopardized by the new way, the solution is not to
01:17:43 ◼ ► use the new way, and you'll be able to do that for a while, I think. So something to keep in mind. I
01:17:48 ◼ ► don't know how this transition is gonna go exactly, but having been through a bunch of them, it's
01:17:52 ◼ ► something to keep in mind. Like, I know we all as tech enthusiasts want to push forward and use the
01:17:57 ◼ ► latest and greatest. There is no harm in stepping off the carousel for a while and letting it turn
01:18:04 ◼ ► a few turns without you. And I will say, if you do want to stay on the carousel, the best thing you
01:18:10 ◼ ► can try and have is an open mind. Yeah, that's always the case, right? Like, things will be,
01:18:17 ◼ ► you know, again, it's gonna get weird. It's gonna get weird. There are gonna be things that are
01:18:23 ◼ ► great, and there are gonna be things that are terrible. That's gonna happen. There are gonna
01:18:27 ◼ ► be things that you're like, "Why did they do this?" Like, the number picker, right? One of the
01:18:31 ◼ ► things that happened on Twitter is that Garramine Rambo posted a tweet, or maybe Steve Trout and
01:18:36 ◼ ► Smith did, and he replied to it. But it was one of these things that was like, "Wouldn't it be funny
01:18:40 ◼ ► if Marzipan didn't change that number picker from Mojave?" Where you've got the iOS thing with the
01:18:46 ◼ ► spinning thing is that you have to use a mouse to, like, click the spinning things to set a date.
01:18:51 ◼ ► It's this ridiculous thing that should not be on a Mac. And the strong implication there is that
01:18:59 ◼ ► maybe it's still there. And we're gonna have stuff like that. We're like, "Why would you do this?"
01:19:06 ◼ ► this is really cool." And that's gonna happen too. It is gonna get weird. You are absolutely right.
01:19:11 ◼ ► And some patience, open-mindedness, because part of this is you've got that way, that you've bent
01:19:20 ◼ ► your tech to your will, and it's bent you to it a little bit, and you found this comfortable place
01:19:26 ◼ ► to be. There is a new—there may very well be, not 100% guarantee, there will be a new place to be.
01:19:31 ◼ ► It's not gonna be like your old place, though. It's not gonna work the same. And getting there
01:19:37 ◼ ► is frustrating. Now, first off, you don't have to go there right away, like I said, but it can be
01:19:43 ◼ ► frustrating to build up that new thing. And then once you build it up, you're like, "Oh, what was
01:19:47 ◼ ► the problem?" Like, seriously, OS X did that to so many people, where OS X, the rules were totally
01:19:52 ◼ ► different from classic Mac OS. But there were lots of benefits, and there were some things that
01:20:01 ◼ ► with Marzipan and potentially with ARM coming down the road as well. But it's gonna be weird for a
01:20:07 ◼ ► while, for sure, and there's gonna be frustration, and that's okay. And so I heard that from Marco,
01:20:12 ◼ ► like, I get it. And he's not wrong. I think there's some good, and there's some reason to be
01:20:17 ◼ ► optimistic, but there's gonna be stuff that's really frustrating. And honestly, listening to
01:20:22 ◼ ► Marco, my core worry—and I do actually have this as a concern—my core worry is that where Apple's
01:20:29 ◼ ► going, Apple is so unconcerned with the needs of power users that, in the end, if you want to be
01:20:39 ◼ ► an old-school computer user with all of these things that are features that you expect from
01:20:46 ◼ ► your desktop or laptop computer, that in the next decade there will come a time when Apple even says,
01:20:58 ◼ ► But how do you balance that worry of what Apple's gonna do with the same company who bent to the
01:21:06 ◼ ► will of the pro user to create a new Mac Pro, an iMac Pro, and to, we believe, based on rumors,
01:21:21 ◼ ► this Marzipan stuff is going on, some group within Apple made the decision that they actually need to
01:21:27 ◼ ► serve pro users. And that gives me hope, right? Because that Apple doesn't want to send power
01:21:35 ◼ ► users to Windows. That Apple wants to keep them on the Mac. And as long as that Apple has a say
01:21:41 ◼ ► in what happens on the Mac—and maybe it's outside Marzipan, right? Maybe Marzipan is just the—
01:21:45 ◼ ► Marzipan, maybe it's like the frosting on a cake. Maybe it really is, and that underneath on the
01:21:57 ◼ ► and they do get improved. Maybe that's the case. Maybe that is their strategy, is Marzipan is for
01:22:03 ◼ ► everybody, but the Mac is still going to have the power underneath. And I hope that's the case,
01:22:07 ◼ ► because I don't want Apple to drive power users off of their operating systems, because I am one,
01:22:12 ◼ ► and I don't want to go. I'm not interested in—like all these people talk about the MacBook
01:22:16 ◼ ► keyboards, and they're like, "Oh, I could just go to Windows." I'm like, "Yeah, that's a dealbreaker.
01:22:20 ◼ ► I'm not going to do that. I'm not interested in that." But it doesn't mean that I'm not frustrated
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01:24:19 ◼ ► Make your next move. Make your next website. Let's do some #askupgrade questions to round
01:24:29 ◼ ► "Should I hold out for the mythical, magical, modular Mac Pro or should I settle for an iMac
01:24:34 ◼ ► Pro? I'm currently using a 2013 Mac Pro with 12 cores, 64 gigabytes of RAM and a D700 GPU."
01:24:41 ◼ ► I don't know what some of that stuff means, Jason. I'm not going to lie. But in Matt's tweet,
01:24:47 ◼ ► they posted an image of an activity monitor and it was doing some Adobe media encoding stuff. It
01:24:53 ◼ ► looks like they are a Premiere Pro user. And it seems like basically they need all the power they
01:24:58 ◼ ► can get. Yeah, it depends as it always does on how long you're willing to wait because I think
01:25:08 ◼ ► at this point we're two months out from possibly hearing more details about the Mac Pro.
01:25:14 ◼ ► From at least understanding a little bit more about what it might be and you might not want
01:25:19 ◼ ► to make your decision. It might be that you see that and you're like, "No, the iMac Pro is
01:25:23 ◼ ► probably good for me." And then you go for it. But you know, leading from what I think you were
01:25:29 ◼ ► going to say, "I wouldn't, unless you are having significant issues, I wouldn't want to move right
01:25:35 ◼ ► now." Yeah, I think that's right. That there is a thing coming in a couple of months that may tell
01:25:47 ◼ ► us more. And so that more information is good. Also, the iMac Pro hasn't been updated since
01:25:55 ◼ ► December 2017 when it was released, which means I don't think there's new stuff for it, but it means
01:26:00 ◼ ► that if it's going to be updated, presumably that would happen at some point and it hasn't been. So
01:26:05 ◼ ► keep that in mind. What I said earlier about how the high spec iMac will kind of reach the low spec
01:26:15 ◼ ► iMac Pro. That said, iMac Pro is great. You can buy it with lots and lots of cores and lots of RAM
01:26:20 ◼ ► and that's all good. I think you could get it. I think the other thing to keep in mind is what
01:26:28 ◼ ► you're feeling is about monitors because all the rumors are that the new Mac Pro will come alongside
01:26:34 ◼ ► a new Apple monitor that will be presumably newer, bigger, sleeker, more beautiful. And if you want
01:26:44 ◼ ► that monitor, then wait because you'll be able to get that with the Mac Pro. Although presumably,
01:26:51 ◼ ► a modern iMac will drive that monitor too, just fine, as a second monitor. So there's a lot of
01:26:57 ◼ ► stuff going on here. I would say if you can afford to wait and find out what the deal is with this
01:27:01 ◼ ► Mac Pro and then make a judgment then, go ahead and wait because I think the iMac Pro is great
01:27:09 ◼ ► and it will serve you well. But if you can wait a couple of months, wait and see because that may
01:27:15 ◼ ► answer your question and it would be a shame to commit now to buy the iMac Pro that's been sitting
01:27:22 ◼ ► out there for more than a year when in two months you'll know hopefully a little bit more about
01:27:28 ◼ ► whether the Mac Pro will suit you. Here's an interesting question from Eric. "What's happened
01:27:35 ◼ ► to Photoshop for iPad? We haven't heard about it in a while and we're a third of the way through
01:27:40 ◼ ► the year." Two-thirds of the year remains. All they said was 2019. Yeah. I would not be surprised if
01:27:48 ◼ ► this is a WWDC thing. It might not be. It could come out any day or it could come out at WWDC.
01:27:58 ◼ ► It could come out announced for iOS 13. Yep. As we kind of said at the time, I think still might
01:28:06 ◼ ► need some stuff that's not in iOS yet, right? Like that they know is coming because they're working
01:28:10 ◼ ► together, right? Like that was very clear from the original announcements that like Apple and Adobe
01:28:16 ◼ ► working very closely together on some of this stuff and I think helping push each other forward
01:28:21 ◼ ► for this stuff. Yeah, I agree. It is strange that we haven't heard about it at all for a while,
01:28:29 ◼ ► right? Like there's not really been anything else. It came out with such a bang and it was all this,
01:28:38 ◼ ► And I can understand what has been the avenue, like where would they have, what was the outlet
01:28:43 ◼ ► for showing it, right? Or maybe there just isn't much more to show. So I understand where it's
01:28:48 ◼ ► like, huh, what happened to that? I always thought it would be out by now. Like my mind,
01:28:54 ◼ ► I don't remember the offhand, I don't remember that if they gave any kind of timeframe,
01:28:58 ◼ ► it was probably just 2019. But I always kind of thought, oh, well, if they've announced it
01:29:03 ◼ ► in like August, September, we'll have it by the end of Q1. But that didn't happen. And I think
01:29:11 ◼ ► that probably a lot of other people like me thought that, right? Like they're announcing
01:29:15 ◼ ► it like six months early and we'll get it. It's definitely happening. We've had quite a few
01:29:25 ◼ ► it's obviously been canceled. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, this is happening because
01:29:40 ◼ ► But yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if like you, we get more about it in June with a date
01:29:49 ◼ ► Daniel asks, do you know of a way to transfer music from an iPod touch third generation to a
01:29:57 ◼ ► MacBook Pro? I've been trying to figure out a way to transfer my mom's music from her old iPod touch
01:30:03 ◼ ► to her iPhone 7 Plus. I think about this one. I have a couple of options and I think they'll work.
01:30:12 ◼ ► And maybe you can tell me if I'm right or wrong. There are apps like iExplorer, which I haven't
01:30:18 ◼ ► used in a long time, but this is one of those applications that like will let you get in to
01:30:24 ◼ ► an iOS device and kind of tinker around. And you never really know what to think about with apps
01:30:31 ◼ ► like that. But I have used this one in the past for similar kinds of things where it's like, well,
01:30:35 ◼ ► there's a thing that I need and I need to do and I haven't got any other way of getting to it or
01:30:57 ◼ ► Okay. I don't think so. Because I was wondering, would it merge the libraries? But then I was
01:31:03 ◼ ► worried about like, oh, but what if it then just deleted it all? So things like iExplorer,
01:31:10 ◼ ► like iExplorer has a trial. I would give that a go and see if that will do it. If that doesn't do it,
01:31:16 ◼ ► maybe look into something like iCloud music library, but proceed with caution, I think would
01:31:22 ◼ ► be my thought on that one. This is a tricky one. I mean, another one that I thought Jason was like,
01:31:32 ◼ ► Possibly. The question is, can you then back up an old, old iPod touch to a brand new iPhone?
01:31:38 ◼ ► Or will there be a, you know, will that work where you can just restore the backup even
01:31:44 ◼ ► though it's from the older operating system? It's possible if it's if it's a depends on what those
01:31:48 ◼ ► files are and where they're from. Yeah, yeah. So this is a this is a very interesting question.
01:31:55 ◼ ► But I don't know the answer. But I know of a couple of ways to do it. There's another app,
01:32:02 ◼ ► iMazing, yeah. I don't remember which one of these I've used, honestly, but they seem to be by and
01:32:07 ◼ ► large, the same kind of thing. But again, these apps are doing weird things. So always proceed.
01:32:22 ◼ ► Recommended use. Meher asks, did you get your Avengers Endgame tickets? I'm wondering if there
01:32:27 ◼ ► will be a following Monday, Myke at the Movies special. What did you get your tickets, Jason?
01:32:33 ◼ ► I haven't bought any tickets, but that's not going to preclude me from being able to see it.
01:32:41 ◼ ► Okay, I did. And I get to see it on the 25th of April, because tax cuts for Disney means that
01:32:51 ◼ ► a lot of these movies are shot in the UK, which means that they either premiere here or they come
01:32:57 ◼ ► out a little bit earlier. So I'll be seeing it on the 25th in the afternoon. Like it comes out
01:33:30 ◼ ► you know, you never know. But the plan is that the following weekend's Incomparable episode
01:33:41 ◼ ► On his first ever, I think, main Incomparable show appearance, which I am so very excited. And
01:33:48 ◼ ► for a reason I can't describe, really nervous about. So that's going to be a whole thing.
01:33:53 ◼ ► It doesn't really happen to me anymore, Jason, but like that's a different arena. It's like
01:33:58 ◼ ► more Myke's weird movie opinions guide him through the show, but only you can find out.
01:34:25 ◼ ► Do you think it would be able to drive the new Apple monitor for resolution and frame rate,
01:34:37 ◼ ► reason that they colored that Mac Mini space gray. It is more focused as a pro machine. I mean,
01:34:42 ◼ ► they really kind of did say it as that. And the laptops will be able to use that thing.
01:34:48 ◼ ► I would be flabbergasted if there is a Mac that is released right now that can't power it,
01:34:56 ◼ ► Yeah. I mean, keeping in mind that Mac Mini can drive a pretty powerful display, right?
01:35:05 ◼ ► It can drive, it's rated for 5120 by 2880 resolution. So yeah, I would be shocked if it
01:35:15 ◼ ► It can do like a couple of monitors, right, as well. Like it's, you know, it's got some real
01:35:21 ◼ ► Yeah. It can do up to two displays where one of them is 5120 by 2880 and the other one is
01:35:30 ◼ ► 4096 by 2160. That's a lot of pixels. So to, you know, is it going to be able to drive via
01:35:55 ◼ ► answer on the show. Thank you so much to everybody that has sent one in. Thank you to Squarespace
01:35:59 ◼ ► Lunar Display and KiwiCo for their support of this week's episode. Thank you for listening.
01:36:04 ◼ ► If you'd like to find Jason's work online, you can go to SixColors.com or TheIncomparable.com.
01:36:09 ◼ ► Jason is @JSnell, J S N E double L on Twitter. I am @imike, I M Y K E and this show is a part
01:36:20 ◼ ► hosted by neither of us, but by equally talented, if not more talented individuals. We have
01:36:25 ◼ ► many wonderful shows at Real AFM. If you only listen to Upgrade or maybe listen to Upgrade
01:36:29 ◼ ► and one other, go take a look because I bet there's something else that you would love.
01:36:32 ◼ ► We'll be back next week. Remember we were going to be recording and releasing on Tuesday