202: I’m Going to Counter Your Jaguar

0:00:00From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, Episode 202 for July 16th, 2018. I am your host, Jason

0:00:18Snell, and not Myke Hurley, who is not here. He is on assignment, and his assignment was

0:00:23to go on his honeymoon. We assigned that as a collective. We said, "No more podcasting

0:00:28for you. Go on your honeymoon." And so, our special guest to replace Myke, well, who could

0:00:33replace Myke? To succeed Myke for one week only, it is, of course, another co-founder

0:00:39of Relay. Why not? Steven Hackett, hello. Yeah, just, you close your eyes and squint,

0:00:44we're basically the same person. We both have beards. Yeah, I mean, really, if you're face

0:00:48blind but not beard blind, then you're like basically the same person as far as I'm concerned.

0:00:52We both co-founded Podcast Networks. You both have, um, uh, I was going to make an accent

0:00:58joke but I don't really know what that would be. We both have American accents. Yeah, by

0:01:05the way, because Myke likes to do this even though I never do it, this episode of Upgrade

0:01:09is brought to you by MailRoute, Pingdom, and Anchor. Anyway, I said that like how Myke

0:01:13says it. We are here, it is the summer of fun. What is more fun than having a co-host

0:01:18who is a surprise like Steven Hackett? So, welcome, Steven, to the summer of fun. It's

0:01:24bright in here. I really, you said it and all the lights got brighter and someone handed

0:01:29me a drink with a fancy straw. Did you see here there's a little ukulele playing in the

0:01:33background. I've got a good microphone so I can hear it but you can't hear it. But it's

0:01:38here. That's the best kind. That's the best kind. You know, when my wife was growing up,

0:01:43her dad, when they took family car trips, would say, "We can listen to the radio but

0:01:48it needs to, the volume needs to be so, turned so far down that you can hear it and I can't."

0:01:53Which I always thought was like, first off, that's impossible and also kind of mean. But

0:01:58anyway, that's how the ukulele music is tuned in your house. It's just loud enough that

0:02:03you can hear it but we can't. Jason, Jason, no one cares about ukulele music. No? Not

0:02:09even Don Ho? We have a snail talk question. Oh, good, I'm excited. This is from Mark.

0:02:15Mark writes, "If you had a boat, what would you name it?" I think this may be the dumbest

0:02:24snail talk question ever. Or the best. Well, I don't have a boat. But you know how, yeah,

0:02:32right, boats have ridiculous pun names on the background. I have not, I, it would take

0:02:38time, I would need to workshop a bunch of stuff, I think. I, let's call it professional

0:02:46podcasters. Ooh, that's good. That's good. That's, let's just, I'll throw it in there

0:02:52for now. That'll be my placeholder name. I'll come up with a better boat name, probably

0:02:56between now and when I buy a boat, which is never. You never know. But thank you, Mark,

0:03:01for the ridiculous #snelltalkquestion. You can send your own #snelltalkquestions in by

0:03:06tweeting with #snelltalkintothevoid, but the hashtag means they won't be into the void,

0:03:11they will instead appear in a spreadsheet that is accessible by Myke and also apparently

0:03:17Steven, and then they get read to me. It's a continuing, ongoing experiment where I am

0:03:25the subject. We got a little follow-up. My follow-up is, "What time zone are you in

0:03:30right now, Steven?" And I don't mean Memphis time, I mean where is your body time right

0:03:34now? Because you and I recently went very far away. Yes. And for me it was, on the way

0:03:43out it was nine hours forward and then coming back it was eight hours back because I made

0:03:48a time change in the middle of my trip. So how are you doing? I'm great. So, I don't

0:03:56know what happened. I go to the West Coast, you know, for work, and I'm destroyed. I

0:04:01go to London, which is many more time zones away, and I had basically very little adjustment

0:04:08to do when I got there and even less adjustment to do when I got back. I'm totally fine.

0:04:12I don't know how I have this superpower. It's the world's worst superpower, but I

0:04:17have it. I seem to be impervious to jet lag on this trip. That's amazing. That's amazing.

0:04:22How lucky for you? I don't know. It's all the vitamins I think and the ukulele music.

0:04:27This is brutal for me. This was a hard one. I think two weeks in that time zone made it

0:04:35harder. I think part of it might also be like, oftentimes when I make these international

0:04:40trips it's just me and this time it was my whole family. And I think that I suspect

0:04:44that my family helps me adjust because they're all on Pacific Time schedule and then I'm

0:04:51jet lagged and so they're all getting up at seven in the morning or whatever and going

0:04:57to bed at eleven o'clock or whatever and I kind of get into sync with that. But we

0:05:02were all jet lagged this time. And it's summer so the kids are not, they don't need

0:05:07to get up. My wife is also jet lagged. So I think that made it harder for me. I feel

0:05:17like I've kind of gotten it back now, but it's been a week. We got back a week ago

0:05:21today. So it was, but it was, I had a lot of five a.m. wake ups, which I don't recommend.

0:05:31In the middle of summer to wake up and it's still dark and you get up anyway, no, it's

0:05:37no good. And a lot of falling asleep at like nine or like eight thirty where it's like,

0:05:45no, no, no, got to stay awake. Got to stay awake. But yeah, so that was tough. But it

0:05:51was a great trip. We had a great time. So you and your wife went and you left the kids

0:05:55behind and how many days were you there? We were there for seven. So we did Tuesday through

0:06:00Tuesday and spoke on this on analog, which you can listen to in a couple of days, but

0:06:06longest trip we've ever taken together, longer than our honeymoon. And it was really great.

0:06:10I'm really bad at vacation. I did basically just one morning's worth of work for an entire

0:06:15week, which felt great. Yeah, that was the paid all of us. Thank you. I paid all of you.

0:06:20So I figured a lot of really people on vacation, I'm on vacation. I'd like to get paid. Yeah.

0:06:25So we did that. You spend money, get more money to spend. Yeah, that's right. You are

0:06:30bad at vacation if seven days away is longer than your honeymoon. Yeah, well, we got married

0:06:34in college and we had like no money. I could take, I could take four days off from the

0:06:38Apple store, so I guess I'll take four days off from the Apple store. But, um, you know,

0:06:42it's, it's, we're in a different time and era of life now. Yeah, it was really good.

0:06:47And it was a lot of fun to see a bunch of people and to meet people, significant others.

0:06:51Um, you know, Jason, we have met each other's families, but that's not true for everybody

0:06:56who was there from like the podcast world. So like it was really great to spend time

0:07:00with other people's significant others and their partners. And it was a lot of fun. And,

0:07:05um, London was a lot of fun. I had not been, uh, to England before, which seems shocking

0:07:11to some people, but I haven't been. And, um, that was, that was great. And I think Myke

0:07:17and I may start to trade off. Uh, I think people know in August, most years we kind

0:07:21of have a retreat and I think we may start trading off and maybe I'll go over some, I

0:07:24think, especially once they get settled into family life a little bit more. That's a great,

0:07:28um, way to get yourself some trips to London. Yeah. Who's to say, let's do it both ways.

0:07:35Myke let's, uh, and he may say, no, no, no, Steven, no, no. Uh, maybe you can settle on

0:07:40like every six months just trading off because you guys both need your, uh, international

0:07:47international trips. It's a, it's a lot of fun. I didn't make an international trip.

0:07:52Well, I didn't leave North America until I was almost 30. Um, but the last 15 or so years

0:07:59have been full of, uh, international trips and they're great. They're a lot of fun. And

0:08:04my kids actually managed to, I think, have a good time, especially my daughter who's

0:08:0916. I think she ended up having a good time. Um, and that was my concern. Like we were

0:08:14building the trip, trying to include things that they would be interested in and not just

0:08:18boring things like looking at paintings. Yeah. Um, because that was the, I think, I don't

0:08:23know if I mentioned this last week on this show, but I mentioned it somewhere that, that

0:08:26at the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam, they were so bored of looking at, you know, amazing

0:08:31Dutch masters paintings, but they were so bored at that point that they were like counting

0:08:36the number of cats that they could find in various paintings, which is actually a pretty

0:08:41good, pretty good way to pass the time. That would be a fun scavenger hunt, but I mean,

0:08:45they were so bored. I had that moment with my spouse. We're in the science museum and

0:08:49they have a computer collection and I was just like taking notes and like, well, they

0:08:52have this, but I have that too. Or they don't have this, but I have one of those. And, uh,

0:08:59Mary was like, I'm going to go. Yeah. I'm going to let you, you be alone with your computers

0:09:03now for a little while as it is so often. Yeah. Um, I have a mini topic before we get

0:09:11to the rest of the show that I wanted to mention something that happened last week, which is,

0:09:15uh, uh, it's kind of follow up kind of mini topic because we've been talking about it

0:09:18on upgrade for a while now. And it finally happened, which is that Sonos released their

0:09:22software update that gives, I want to say all their speakers, but it's really not all

0:09:27their speakers. It's like four of their speakers, uh, Airplay 2. And so it's the Play 5, the

0:09:34Sonos 1, the Play Bar, and the new one whose name escapes me, the brand new one they announced,

0:09:44but it's, it's a relatively recent collection and it's the, it's the second generation Play

0:09:485. So it's a relatively recent collection of, of devices, not the Play 1, the Sonos 1,

0:09:54the one with the Amazon assistant in it. I have a, I have a Play 1 and, uh, yeah, it's,

0:10:01it's, they've got colons too. I should call it like it's the Play colon 1 and the Play

0:10:05colon 5 that I have, uh, that it's really rolls off the tongue. Beautiful names. Um,

0:10:11so anyway, I do have that Play 5, so I updated the software and, uh, Airplay 2 is really

0:10:17good. Like I know it took a long time for them to get it, but I'm really impressed with

0:10:22how well it works. And the thing, cause I've got a couple of home pods. The thing that

0:10:26impressed me the most about it is that, you know, a Sonos speaker running Airplay 2 is

0:10:33a peer to other Airplay 2 speakers. So I was able to connect the Play 5 and the paired

0:10:40home pods and they played music in perfect sync. I could play music on the home pods

0:10:46and then say also, I could say, Hey lady, Hey canister, also play this in the garage

0:10:52and boop, the sound just began coming out of the Sonos Play 5 in the garage. Just flawless.

0:10:58Just yeah, it's really fast. It's like the dream, right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's super fast.

0:11:02Unlike Airplay, which has got that two second buffer, it all feels very instantaneous. And

0:11:07that buffer was just long enough for you to think that it was broken, right? Like you

0:11:10go hit, you hit the button again and then it plays for a split second and pauses, which

0:11:14is always fun. You can too, I believe if you have one of these quote modern Sonos devices

0:11:21and you have a bunch of older ones too, that new one can act like a bridge to the other

0:11:28ones. Yeah, that is an amazing feature. It requires you to fiddle around with the Sonos

0:11:33app, but people were asking about this and cause they couldn't wrap their mind around

0:11:37it when I wrote about it, but it's, so my Play 1 that isn't compatible. If I go into

0:11:41the Sonos app and select the Play 5 and say group and add the Play 1 to the Play 5's group.

0:11:50At that point, everything that plays on the Play 5 plays on the Play 1, including all

0:11:55the Airplay stuff. So if I say, that does mean that if I say to my HomePods, play this

0:12:00in the garage, it will also play it in the bathroom where the Play 1 is, right? Cause

0:12:04they're, they're linked. But if you want to chain every device, including non-compatible

0:12:10Sonos devices, compatible Sonos devices, and other Airplay 2 devices into one big, you

0:12:15know, whole home thing, you can totally do it. And then somebody was asking about volume

0:12:20and yeah, those two volumes, if you try to adjust volume on those Sonos speakers from

0:12:24the Airplay side, they go together. But if you open the Sonos app, you can then adjust

0:12:30them individually. So it's not perfect, but I feel like it's way more than you would expect

0:12:38from that feature. I would expect that the other Sonos things just, when it's Airplay

0:12:422, forget about them. They don't exist anymore. And that's not how they built it. They all

0:12:47work together, sort of as a linked single Airplay 2 speaker using the Sonos, you know,

0:12:53in the background, obviously Sonos is doing Sonos things to connect those other speakers,

0:12:57but they've got that all built in. So I was pretty impressed. It's a cool feature. And

0:13:04I'm impressed by Airplay 2, as long as it took to get it. I think it is good and Sonos

0:13:12did a good job of supporting it on the devices that they were, apparently there's enough

0:13:17hardware like processing power going on here that a bunch of their devices are just not

0:13:22powerful enough to do it, which is too bad. It also means that that Sonos One at $199

0:13:28is you know, pretty compelling. Yeah, I mean, it's a pretty good deal. It doesn't sound

0:13:33as good as the HomePod, but it's way cheaper than the HomePod. So yeah.

0:13:36Yeah. And Sonos continues to be a brand that is trying to work with everybody else.

0:13:41Right.

0:13:42Which I think is very admirable. There's Amazon stuff, there's Apple stuff. They're

0:13:45the only non-Apple speaker that has like Apple Music sort of baked in.

0:13:49You can't, I keep thinking that it would be great, but I think the Siri APIs don't

0:13:54let them do this. It would be great if I could use a Siri command to tell a Sonos speaker

0:13:59to play music from Apple Music and have it just do it natively instead of from my phone

0:14:06or whatever. And it doesn't do that. But it does mean this AirPlay 2 thing means that

0:14:11I can use my phone or whatever, my Siri devices to say, "Play this song or play this album

0:14:19on that Sonos speaker." And it'll do it. What it's doing is it's playing it in

0:14:23Apple Music and then using AirPlay 2 to stream it to that speaker. But it does work. The

0:14:28one caveat if you haven't tried this yet and you're thinking of setting it up if

0:14:32you have a Sonos speaker is you'd have to add it in the Home app, which is a weird

0:14:36process where you add an item to the Home app and it says, "What do you want to add?"

0:14:39And you're like, "An accessory." And then it says, "Okay, scan in the barcode."

0:14:43It's like, "No, there isn't one of those you have to say, 'I don't have a barcode.'"

0:14:47And then it brings you to this thing that's like the complicated setup wizard. But the

0:14:52funny thing is in that screen, the Sonos speaker is just sitting there like, "Oh, I found

0:14:58this. Is this what you mean?" It's like, "Yes. Yes, Home app. That is what I mean."

0:15:02And then once it's added, it works pretty well. There is a weird quirk that made me

0:15:08laugh which is Sonos cautions you to not change the name of your speaker to be different.

0:15:17So don't give it a different name in the Home app than you give it in the Sonos app

0:15:21because apparently that means something. And that gets really confusing. But after I added

0:15:27it, it worked pretty great. So I'm impressed.

0:15:30Cool. I'm glad to hear it's working well.

0:15:32Yeah. Yeah. So that's a nice... Good job. Good job, everybody. We got audio in more

0:15:37places, and that makes me happy. We got a lot to talk about this week. We got a lot

0:15:42of topics.

0:15:43We do.

0:15:44But we also have sponsors, so I should probably take care of our friends at MailRoute. This

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0:18:57in my email and supporting this show and all of Relay FM. New MacBook Pros happened. Surprise!

0:19:05There was a question. You and I were going back and forth on this and I was talking to

0:19:07Myke about it. Part of the calculation of the Summer of Fun is, we pre-taped a couple

0:19:13of episodes. It's like when do they get deployed? And what I said to Myke was "Well, if there's

0:19:18no news the week after we record Before You Go On Your Honeymoon, maybe I'll drop the

0:19:22pre-recorded episode then because there will be nothing to talk about." That plan didn't

0:19:28go very far because last week Apple released new MacBook Pros and they called a bunch of

0:19:36people to New York City where they were greeted by media professionals who were doing this.

0:19:43This seems to be a new trend in Apple's rollouts because they did this with the iMac Pro too.

0:19:48It's like pro products. They have you meet with people who are professionals who are

0:19:52using the technology to tell you why they're using it. So they're being much more aggressive

0:19:56in building this narrative about big time professionals use these tools and here's why

0:20:03they love them which is an interesting, very active marketing technique that maybe Apple

0:20:10didn't use in the past where they're like "Yay, there are laptops." Now they seem to

0:20:13be much more intense about this professional tool story. And I have some theories about

0:20:20why, including the fact that I feel like Apple is actually trying very hard to impress on

0:20:25people the idea that these products should be judged as professional products and not

0:20:29as consumer products. I'm getting a real vibe. I was walking the dog yesterday and I had

0:20:36this thought popped into my head which is "Apple's doing with the MacBook Pro what they did with

0:20:40the Mac Pro." If you think about the Power Mac era especially, there was a time when

0:20:46pro systems meant anybody who wasn't a base level consumer and over time on the desktop

0:20:52side pro, you know, I used to only buy Power Macs and I stopped and started buying iMacs

0:21:02and one of the reasons was pro went from being sort of all of the market except the low end

0:21:08to being only the high end of the market. And I feel like that's what they're doing

0:21:12with the MacBook Pro is that they really, and the iMac Pro, they really want to make

0:21:16it clear like the reason that this thing costs so much is because they have packed it with

0:21:21lots of expensive technology for people who really, really need it and it's not for everyone.

0:21:27That is the kind of like implication I feel like of these dog and pony shows where they

0:21:31bring out all the professional video editors and music video directors and things like

0:21:36that.

0:21:37Yeah, I think there's something to that. I would feel better about that if they had

0:21:41a consumer notebook that made any sense but they don't.

0:21:44Yeah, not yet. Although, it does feel like that's the other shoe to drop, right? There

0:21:49may just be some Intel processors that need to ship for that because the whole, because

0:21:54the MacBook escape, right, like which is really not a MacBook Pro and I'm now wondering

0:22:00if that product is going to disappear or become something else because that's the other

0:22:06part of the story, right? It's like, okay, Apple, if you're saying these are pro systems,

0:22:11they're really only for pros, what's the consumer laptop store? What's the rest of

0:22:15the market laptop store?

0:22:17Yeah, I think that's a totally fair question because it does feel like there's this gap

0:22:23there and Apple has like three machines down there. They have the Air, they have the one

0:22:28port MacBook, they have the two port MacBook Pro and it's like there's a lot of overlap

0:22:33there and only one of them, it really hits like the sort of magic price of $1,000 and

0:22:39that one is several years old but it is like increasingly out of sync with the rest of

0:22:46the lineup and so yeah, I agree with you. I think something's going on there. I do think

0:22:50there's something to the idea that Apple is trying to define these machines as pro machines.

0:22:54Like you said, we saw it with the iMac Pro. I am sure when the Mac Pro shows up next year,

0:23:00we're going to see this again where it's like, look at all these top data scientists

0:23:04doing their things on this new computer we built.

0:23:07Totally and developers and again, video pros and anybody who's doing incredibly intense

0:23:14high-end work because then it sets the context, right? Like when I got my iMac Pro, I basically,

0:23:24I never got a briefing about the iMac Pro and I talked to my editor, Roman at Macworld

0:23:29and he got a briefing and I said, "Well, I got my iMac Pro," and he said, "We didn't

0:23:32even get one for review. They're not available." And I said, "Well, I can review it," and

0:23:37he said, "Sure." So I contacted Apple and I said, "Okay, just so you know, my contacts

0:23:41at Apple, I know you didn't give me one to review, but I've got one and I'm going to

0:23:46review it."

0:23:47And I got this, I got the sense back that it was like, "Well, great. We know who you

0:23:49are. That's good." But there was also like a worry of like, "But wait, wait, wait. We

0:23:55have this whole plan about only seating certain people and telling this whole story about

0:24:01the high end." And I ended up having to reassure them, which they got. It was fine. And my

0:24:07review got, it's the only thing I've written, I think, that has been retweeted by Phil Schiller,

0:24:11right? So it worked in the end, but I had to kind of reassure them like, "You guys know

0:24:16that I don't just write articles. I do audio production and some video production, and

0:24:22I use high-end audio plugins that swamp every single core I can throw at it to do denoising

0:24:28on noisy podcast tracks." And they're like, "Okay, all right." And I'm using Logic and

0:24:31Final Cut Pro, and they're like, "All right. All right. We're okay with it." But they were

0:24:33like really nervous about it because it is outside. They don't want, I mean, really it

0:24:38seems like they don't want people thinking, "Oh, my kid is going off to college. I'm going

0:24:42to buy them a six-core 15-inch MacBook Pro." They don't want people thinking that, which

0:24:47is good because you look at the price tag and you're like, "Nah, you probably shouldn't

0:24:50buy that for your kid going off to college." That's probably overkill for them. Of course,

0:24:54there's nothing else right now. I mean, that is the other side of this.

0:24:57But as these-

0:24:58I still tell people to buy the Air. I mean, I get the same thing you get, right? You talk

0:25:01to us on the show of like, you get friends like, "What should I buy my kid?" And my answer

0:25:05is most of the time is the Air because, I mean, yes, it is older, but like you get a

0:25:12bunch of ports that work in the real world. I mean, all the reasons the Air is still a

0:25:15valid machine and it's the price, right? The MacBook and the Escape are what, $1,200, $1,300?

0:25:21I think $1,299, I think is the price for those.

0:25:25Yeah, I bought my daughter a refurbed MacBook. And so it was, I think, $1,199 or something

0:25:37like that. It was a little bit cheaper and she loves it. And I think it's the perfect

0:25:42computer for her. But before we dig in a little bit more to these laptops, I think it's worth

0:25:47at least saying again, there is another shoe that needs to drop here, which is what is

0:25:53Apple's story for the rest of the people who want to buy a Mac laptop because it is a mess,

0:25:59right? Like at least the MacBook Escape, which for those who aren't in on the lingo, although

0:26:06I did laugh because the Verge referred to the MacBook Escape this week and said it's

0:26:10come to be how people in the community refer to that system, which I was like, "Well, it's

0:26:14Marco." But the MacBook Escape is the 13-inch MacBook Pro without touch bar. In other words,

0:26:21it has an escape key. So that's why it's the MacBook Escape. I like it because it sounds

0:26:26like a Journey album, Journey Escape, MacBook Escape. It's like, "Don't stop believing,"

0:26:31is what I'm saying. So the MacBook Escape, at least they lowered that price to $1,299

0:26:39last year, right? So it's the same price as the MacBook. But in the long run, they've

0:26:43got two $1,299 laptops at the base and then this $999 Legacy laptop that doesn't really

0:26:50make sense. It's got the old ports, it's got the low-res screen, but it sticks around because

0:26:55it's under $1,000 and the other ones are about $300 shy of that. So something's got to give

0:27:02there, right? Like I had this moment of, because this is what happens with me, is I think about

0:27:08this stuff at the strangest times. So I'm mowing the lawn, I'm walking the dog and I'm

0:27:12like, "Oh, wait, what about that?" And I did have this thought yesterday, which was that

0:27:18what if the MacBook Escape is the MacBook Air? Would you follow me here? All these rumors

0:27:23about like, "Oh, there's going to be a new MacBook Air." I wonder, and maybe they won't

0:27:28call it that, but I do wonder if that is the destination of that MacBook Escape, is that

0:27:33it's finally going to be what it probably should have been all along, except maybe because

0:27:36of the price, which is that's the other consumer laptop other than the super thin MacBook and

0:27:43they find a way to drive its price down even more. And they have to give it a name, right?

0:27:49It can't be the MacBook Pro anymore. So maybe it's the 13-inch MacBook. Maybe that's the

0:27:53next MacBook Escape, is it's actually called the 13-inch MacBook, because it is not particularly

0:28:00bigger or heavier than the Air. And if they can get it down low enough in price, they

0:28:05can get rid of the Air, because then it would serve the same purpose as the Air. Or if they

0:28:09could get that down to $1,199 or $1,099 and they could get the MacBook down to $999, that

0:28:16would be the other way to do it. And I feel like that's, I think those are the scenarios

0:28:21that are at play here. I have a harder time believing they will actually release the MacBook

0:28:26Air with updated internals and a retina screen. I have a hard time imagining that happening.

0:28:35Now, it's possible that they could just do a chip, another chip swap and make it still

0:28:40float out there at $999 or even $799, something like that, just to hold down the bottom end.

0:28:46But that MacBook Escape, sometimes I think that's kind of the key to solving this problem.

0:28:54Where can that computer go? Because it doesn't need to be super thin and light. It's got

0:28:57a couple of ports. It's using the same processor family essentially as the MacBook Air uses

0:29:02except newer. And it's got the retina screen. It's like, that's the one that should be your

0:29:06like core consumer laptop.

0:29:08Yeah, I think I think that's totally right. I think they just haven't been able to price

0:29:14it there, either due to the expense of the machine or margins or whatever it is. But

0:29:19it that it just in this if you took all the price tags off the laptops and you covered

0:29:24up all the names, that's I think the the product matrix you would build, right? Like if you

0:29:29had those laptops on a table, you'd say, Oh, well, this air is old. And this one port thing

0:29:34is the cheapest one. And then this two port one is kind of the default. And then you go

0:29:39up from there. That's what makes sense from a purely product perspective. And I think

0:29:44they'll get there. And I think that they've, I think Apple is clearly aware that the their

0:29:49low end of their line is messy. And I don't think Apple wants it that way. You know, I

0:29:54mean, I think I think it's different in the world of iPhones where you have older products

0:30:01sticking around to hit price points. People understand that that makes sense. That's the

0:30:05way the phone market works. But it's not so clear in notebooks, especially when the prices

0:30:12are only apart from you know, 100 200 $300. Right? We're not talking that the MacBook

0:30:18Air is $500 cheaper than the MacBook, right? It's only a couple hundred dollars cheaper.

0:30:23And they got to close that gap and they got to make it make sense again. And I'm confident

0:30:27they will I think we've seen from Apple over the last 24 to 36 months. A real recommit

0:30:36to the Mac and ways that we've talked about on all of our shows, right? The Mac Pro roundtable,

0:30:41the iMac Pro unit both sitting in front of one. It's the best Macintosh I've ever owned,

0:30:45hands down. Yeah. The MacBook Pro has been problematic, but they are I think, with it

0:30:51working into the specifics of this generation, but they seem to be moving in the right direction.

0:30:56And just another step along that trail is clean up the consumer offering. And so I'm

0:31:01looking forward to talking about that more you push up the the the pro models. I mean,

0:31:07I feel like this is the clearest sign. And this is strange. And we will talk about the

0:31:10new pro models in a second. But like the pushing them up doing what they did to them to me

0:31:16and certainly, you know, it's four core and six core and 32 gigs of RAM and all of that.

0:31:23And then not touching the touch bar or the non touch bar version, the escape versions,

0:31:26like that's that moment where I was like, okay, you have literally made a space for

0:31:31your consumer strategy, which doesn't exist yet. Like we can't see it yet. It's clearly

0:31:36there's got to be that story. So I look forward to seeing that because that is the place where

0:31:41they're kind of a disarray right now. Whereas the pros have more clarity and this is their

0:31:46third crack at this generation, this body generation of MacBook Pros. And there is a

0:31:51lot there is a lot in there, right? They they they increased cores that was I was listening

0:31:56to ATP and they were talking about how having your like sort of product line just get cores

0:32:02added to it doesn't happen that often. Like since the Intel transition that which is 12

0:32:09years ago, we haven't seen something like this where it's just like, oh, yeah, all of

0:32:13those two cores are now four cores and all of those four cores are now six cores, but

0:32:18that's what happened here because of this is the coffee Lake and that's Intel, but it's

0:32:22also like everybody gets who's using Intel chips gets the that feature bump. So that's

0:32:26happening there and you and I know having iMac Pro is that you know more software like

0:32:32I love software that's it's not as much as as you would like but the software that's

0:32:38multi core aware is a beautiful thing and pro software is where that happens, which

0:32:43is again why more cores matters for pro users more than it does for maybe anyone else. Yeah,

0:32:50we're clearly moving to a world where we're going to be more multi core and our professional

0:32:55machines. I mean, you look at raw clock speeds, that those increases have slowed down over

0:33:00time. And so a way to make computers faster is to sort of shift the model to have, you

0:33:08know, the clock speed is going to be all very similar. But this machine's got four cores

0:33:13and if an app really is built to take advantage of that, which a lot of pro apps are now,

0:33:18you know, everything from logic and the Adobe suite all the way down to something like forecast

0:33:22by Marco Arma, you and I both use every day, which is one of the few apps that really light

0:33:28up my iMac Pro and this really fill up all the cores. As we move into that world, it

0:33:34both Intel and Apple are realizing that that's where they've got to be on the pro end. And

0:33:39to our point earlier, it is a way to separate the pro and the consumer offerings. You know,

0:33:46I I'll be very curious to see so these chip sets can go in the iMac, the 21 and a half

0:33:54and the 27 inch retina iMacs can use these chips and I think we'll probably see quad

0:34:00core and six core iMacs and it's going to bump it a little bit closer to the iMac Pro.

0:34:06But I think even there we're going to see it because this is going to be increasingly

0:34:09important. We're not going to see it in the MacBook. We're not going to see it if they

0:34:14if they refresh the Mac Mini in the future. Those are still going to be lower core counts,

0:34:18I think definitely not six to help separate them a little bit. Yeah, I think that's right

0:34:22in the Mac Mini. If it ever comes back again, if there's a chip available, that'll do more

0:34:26power and that they can do as a build to order. I'm sure they'll do it like they did back

0:34:30in the day where they had the four core version, but it's not going to be the focus, right?

0:34:34And if like if if if they have to make a decision about which which you know reference logic

0:34:41board to use or you know which Intel chipset to use and they're like, well, this one's

0:34:45cheaper and it only does two cores. They'll be like fine, right? They're not going to

0:34:48they're not going to make a decision like that in favor of the other one. But right

0:34:53one of the things that's really funny and people don't remember now the keyboard one

0:34:56of my frustrations about this is like look I'm a keyboard snob. I am I really am. I didn't

0:35:01used to be but I am I've got a bunch of mechanical keyboards. I have opinions about keyboards.

0:35:05I don't like the modern MacBook keyboards. I don't like them. I don't like the reduced

0:35:11travel it bugs me. It feels every time I use one. It feels like I am basically just smack

0:35:16smashing my fingers down on squares and letters come out and it's like look that's a personal

0:35:21preference thing but and and it's valid like if you hate that keyboard literally other

0:35:26than the air you can't buy a MacBook that doesn't have a keyboard you hate and that's

0:35:31I I have issues with that. I think it's emblematic of this entire generation where Apple made

0:35:35some decisions that maybe maybe we're a little too extreme and they just have to live it

0:35:40down because it's a it's a hardware body generation and they're not going to redesign it for another

0:35:44year or two, but the reliability of those keyboards became a huge story and again, we

0:35:51can debate how big is that issue Apple says it's a very small percentage of people if

0:35:55you listen to like we all know people who either we either have been affected by it

0:36:00or we know people who've been affected by it which makes you think maybe a small percentage

0:36:04how how small is small to you 5% 10% I mean, it's not necessarily point 0 1% but regardless

0:36:11that became the story about this generation of laptops is oh the keyboards and I'll tell

0:36:16you if you go back in time to what October of 16 when these came out that was not the

0:36:24story. In fact the story then was oh there's a second generation and they're they're more

0:36:28clicky and they'll be okay and people sort of like accepted in large part that they were

0:36:34stylistically that they were fine right it was before the issues of them being perhaps

0:36:41very breakable came up what made the pro users who rely on the MacBook Pro really angry in

0:36:47October of 16 was the RAM limit was the 16 gig RAM limit and they're like how can you

0:36:53sell professional laptops with a 16 gig RAM limit that was the thing that people were

0:36:58howling about that that was the number one complaint not USB C not the keyboard among

0:37:05the real like high-end pros about those systems if you know I remember it very clearly and

0:37:11I think this is one of those cases where you can see and it took time you can see that

0:37:17Apple heard that you know Apple I think got frustrated by Intel's limitations on that

0:37:23side and in these models you can are on the 15 inch of this new version the 2018 Apple

0:37:29built like a whole strange like memory controller with high-powered RAM so that the is different

0:37:36from the ones found in the other machines and they had to have a bigger battery and

0:37:39all that stuff but they did that so they could get 32 gigs of RAM in there and that I think

0:37:45I think it goes you can draw a straight line back to October of 16 when everybody was complaining

0:37:50about it and probably Apple already knew that it wasn't really acceptable but it was what

0:37:55they were stuck with and then they built like a workaround so let's not forget this is this

0:37:59is in many ways this 15-inch directly addresses the biggest criticism from high-end professionals

0:38:06of the MacBook Pro yeah I think even the 13 does to a degree you can't do the 32 gigs

0:38:12of RAM in the 13 but for me I prefer the 13 inch size I currently have a 15 so I could

0:38:18have a quad-core notebook you know I'm in the position where I'm in my studio most of

0:38:22the time using iMac Pro but when I travel I am editing and recording live audio and

0:38:28having as much horsepower as that is reasonable I'm not gonna buy a max.machine I try to balance

0:38:34it a little bit but having as much power as I can reasonably have on a notebook is important

0:38:39four weeks out of the year and I understand that's a weird use case and that I'm in a

0:38:44privileged position I can have two nice machines but I've had a 15 because I want the quad-core

0:38:49but I you know I haven't ordered anything I may probably wait a little while and kind

0:38:56of see how the how the how the chips fall but if these machines end up being you know sort

0:39:01of positively reviewed and the keyboard seem to be holding up that quad-core 13 is singing

0:39:06my name and I think there are people who are just as excited about that as they are the

0:39:11six core 32 gigagram 15 inch and you know they increase the core count but these machines

0:39:19are faster Coffee Lake is a faster platform than what was there before so they are faster

0:39:26across the board not just in like crazy multi-threaded situations and you know this is the third

0:39:34MacBook Pro we've had in about three years you know it's roughly three years and if Apple's

0:39:40you know saying hey this is going to be an annual cycle if you don't like this one then

0:39:44like you probably only have to wait you know anywhere between nine and fifteen months for

0:39:50the new one and that that predictability almost is more important to me than some the specifics

0:39:55of any one of those updates because for so long there were just unpredictability in when

0:40:03Apple may ship something and it seems like they're getting onto some sort of schedule

0:40:07it's not as fast as maybe some people would like it to be but I will take predictable

0:40:11at this point yeah we heard a lot of people you know it's kind of screaming bloody murder

0:40:17when WWDC happened and there were no new laptops right like oh no no it's awful and they're

0:40:23envisioning like there now won't be until the fall or whatever and this shows you if

0:40:28and there was already evidence but it shows you again Apple can release products whenever

0:40:32they want they can call journalists to an embargoed something and release products and

0:40:38roll them out however they want they could do they can do it anytime and stepping back

0:40:43from that as you pointed out the first rev of the MacBook Pros came after like nine months

0:40:49and this one came after essentially I think 13 months yeah so they are averaging under

0:40:55a year or even if we say it's an annual cycle and one of the questions one of the things

0:40:58that really bugged people especially pros was was their kind of erratic update cycle

0:41:05and some of that's on Apple and some of that's on Intel but I feel like with two of these

0:41:10updates under their belts I think I do think pros can look at Apple's update cycle and

0:41:16say like you said every year or so we're gonna get a new one and it might be yeah 13 14 months

0:41:25it might be nine months but they seem to have now for two update cycles shown their commitment

0:41:32to getting these updates out a little more timely in a little more timely fashion which

0:41:37I think is I think it's good I want to talk about the t2 briefly but before we do that

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0:43:29and RelayFM. Okay the T2 which debuted in yours and my iMac Pro is in these new MacBook

0:43:39Pros and I wrote a piece in January that I told good old Roman at MacPro and I was like

0:43:45you should you should link to that piece again it's like it's evergreen and I linked to it

0:43:50on six colors too because the T2 is a really cool processor it's an ARM processor it's

0:43:58it's running a sort of like a version of iOS called boot OS that's being used in the boot

0:44:04process it's used for a bunch of security stuff it's the disk controller it's encrypting

0:44:08stuff on the fly it's doing a whole bunch of stuff that traditionally was done by other

0:44:13parts of the Mac. Yeah I mean it's great Apple can leverage their custom silicon team not

0:44:18only for iOS devices but using that same technology this is basically what like an 8 like an 810

0:44:25ish processor yeah yeah it's an iPhone processor basically that's inside every every MacBook

0:44:30Pro and iMac Pro and like repurpose that for these like very Mac specific tasks and it's

0:44:40sort of cheesy but like that is one of the things that only Apple can do because they

0:44:43have that expertise on hand and it's they are redefining kind of what a modern Mac is

0:44:48you know if you look at the like the core like system architecture of the iMac Pro and

0:44:54MacBook Pro it is now fundamentally different than previous and other Macs and obviously

0:45:00much more secure and faster because they're doing crazy SSD stuff and this is the way

0:45:06forward. Now it comes with the cost you know these MacBook Pros the original touch bar

0:45:11machines were more than the previous ones and people sort of wrote that off as well

0:45:16it's the T1 and the touch bar and now we see it with the T2 those prices are the same so

0:45:22I you know eventually I think we'll see this like trickle all the way down to whatever

0:45:26the consumer notebook looks like the regular iMacs but I do hope Apple can work to absorb

0:45:31that cost and not increase the price of every computer they sell by $300 to make this work

0:45:38but you know having it in the iMac Pro now I've had this machine what we've had these

0:45:41like six or seven months you never notice it you can turn off the secure boot stuff

0:45:47if it gets in your way and you know it's just it's just there doing its thing and that's

0:45:52the best kind of technology that you know it's working hard for you but you never have

0:45:55to think about it that's that's what I want out of a workstation computers you know what

0:46:00I mean. And it's a little bit silly on an iMac or at least it's a lot less useful on

0:46:05an iMac than on a MacBook Pro this idea that as the disk controller it's also encrypting

0:46:13everything and it's basically encryption at no cost it does all of the encryption work

0:46:17on the fly which means that FileVault basically is free it doesn't slow you down in any way

0:46:23Apple recommends that everything be encrypted and that matters on a laptop right where the

0:46:30laptop could walk away and if it's entirely encrypted nobody's going to get the data off

0:46:34of it. Plus they do the striping where they've got like it's literally just banks of RAM

0:46:39that are being used and it's doing all the it's acting as the controller which means

0:46:45it's able to sort of like use both of the banks together and that increases the the

0:46:51throughput of it so it's it's got a performance story it's got a security story on the storage

0:46:56side. Yeah it's a little confusing that like so the hardware encryption is happening all

0:47:02the time you can then turn on FileVault on top of that if you want Apple I think recommends

0:47:07it for additional security. Yeah what it does is it changes the it links it to your password

0:47:14so instead of it just being kind of like attached to I think even though it's even though it's

0:47:20on by default it's on based on data that's the identity of your laptop so that like they

0:47:27could potentially get that information and decrypt it but when you turn on FileVault

0:47:31it's tying it to your your password which means that now you need all the hardware ID

0:47:36stuff and your password to get it to work right which is but yeah that's I mean for

0:47:40a for a laptop that's what you want if you're working on anything sensitive because then

0:47:44they'll never be able to read your your data. Yeah I run FileVault and the firmware password

0:47:52on my notebook so you can't even boot it from an external drive without a password. In the

0:47:56iMac I'm a little more relaxed it's here in the office probably not going to go anywhere

0:48:00but yeah if you have a notebook you're crazy not turn that stuff on even with the new hardware

0:48:04like you said this is an extra layer and it works with and with Mojave it works even more

0:48:08this way right because Mojave you're gonna have to ask permission for things like the

0:48:13microphone and the camera but it's it's controlling the camera the FaceTime camera so there's

0:48:19a whole not only is it doing kind of like exposure and white balance adjustment and

0:48:25stuff like that but it's actually you have to ask permission to use it which makes it

0:48:30theoretically much more secure because you you have to you don't the operating system

0:48:35doesn't have direct access to the mic or the camera it has to go through the T2 and then

0:48:40obviously the T2 is also running the touch bar which it isn't in our iMacs but it is

0:48:44on the on these laptops and the touch bar you know continues to exist and some people

0:48:49really like it I actually think on a system that's designated for pros the touch bar is

0:48:53a there's a better use case there in some ways because so many of the pros are using

0:48:59these high-end apps where the touch bar as a sort of like extra control surface you can

0:49:06you can at least make a stronger case for it some people are never gonna like the touch

0:49:08bar and that's fine but I think you can make a stronger case for it in you know high-end

0:49:13apps like Final Cut and Logic that that are you know able to do kind of wacky things and

0:49:20they're super customizable like Logic I can tell you if you've ever looked at the customizability

0:49:25on Logic for the touch bar it's like you can literally do anything you want in terms of

0:49:30like putting buttons and controls on the touch bar and Logic it's it's it's amazing yeah

0:49:36if I do one of these I'm looking forward to checking out to see how that's evolved you

0:49:39know I had a 2016 a key fell off of it and I made a scene in the Apple store and they

0:49:44repaired it for free and then I put it on eBay but it's um the touch bar is a weird thing

0:49:50right because it's still only on these machines I think your argument for being for pros is

0:49:56interesting I think there's a really interesting counter argument as well that maybe people

0:50:00like that don't necessarily use notebooks as notebooks all the time yeah you know they're

0:50:04up to displays or they're like me where I'm so wired into keyboard shortcuts actually

0:50:10don't need anything else at this point or I find it distracting there's there's there's

0:50:15good arguments on both sides as some people have said but um I regret that immediately

0:50:20yeah no I mean the touch bar is divisive and I just I feel like if anybody's gonna use

0:50:26a touch bar it is a pro who's motivated to customize it or have it be some sort of wacky

0:50:32control surface that's doing something complicated I you know I'm not sure they are using the

0:50:39touch bar either but I could see scenarios there whereas the scenario for like a consumer

0:50:43using the touch bar is sort of like what it's sort of like clippy in a touch bar it's like

0:50:49yeah you appear to be doing a thing touch the touch bar and I will help you do that

0:50:53thing and I'm not sure that is a strong an argument I don't know this is a I think it's

0:50:59great news great news also at a time when there's not a lot going on other than us processing

0:51:03betas to talk about the some new Mac hardware and I feel like Apple is being consistent

0:51:12with what they said a couple of years ago and last year in terms of their behavior of

0:51:15like how they're training these systems the challenge is that their current product line

0:51:19isn't consistent right there there there are pieces missing there it's a work in progress

0:51:23and this is this part like kind of makes sense what they're doing here and I understand why

0:51:28and not that there aren't things to criticize but kind of like I get where I get where they're

0:51:32going I would suspect that the next major like body revision the major generational

0:51:37revision to these systems is probably going to react to the fact that that so many people

0:51:44have a hard time embracing them I think on the four or five year time scale that those

0:51:50generations go they do have a chance to course correct but if you accept the fact that they're

0:51:55not going to be doing major hardware revisions on the outside of these devices in this in

0:52:01this generation then I think what they're doing is a really interesting progression

0:52:08and it makes sense with what they've said these systems are supposed to be yeah agreed

0:52:13so speaking betas by the way worth a check-in on the summer of betas part of the fun of

0:52:19the summer summer of beta I want to check in with you about Mojave because Myke you

0:52:27know it's gonna be less excited about that Myke's excited about iOS 12 but I wanted to

0:52:31check in a little we're doing all the Mac stuff today I told Myke Stevens gonna be on

0:52:34we're gonna talk about Mac stuff and he's like go for it so have you been spending time

0:52:41with Mojave how's that been going I have I'm running it on an external SSD on my 2015 MacBook

0:52:47Pro and I'm getting pretty close to just booting from it I've got one more work trip in about

0:52:54a week and a half and I think after that I'm gonna be booting my notebook into it it seems

0:52:59pretty good you know I think it's obviously fun to talk about dark mode a bunch of people

0:53:04including me have written about it but once you kind of get past that no hobby does have

0:53:10some other interesting things the additions to the finder are you're talking about Apple

0:53:16focusing on pros they feel like very pro features you know surfacing automator workflows and

0:53:22scripting stuff in finder with new buttons having that new sidebar where for instance

0:53:28you have a picture loaded in the finder preview and it shows sort of the metadata the photo

0:53:33it can do different things depending on what you're looking at that's all very pro level

0:53:38stuff and that I think is is an is the other side of the story with the hardware of Apple

0:53:45focusing on you know consumers I think at this point most people you could use a Mac

0:53:51or an iPad and be totally fine that's not true with pros all pros yet and Apple I think

0:53:58is really spreading the good news that the Mac is for professionals you know if you're

0:54:02a professional Apple user you're gonna get a Mac that's the way it is right now and Mojave

0:54:08is working to cater to those users more and more there's obviously stuff in there that's

0:54:14you know you could take it or leave it some of the the desktop stacking and filtering

0:54:19stuff it's not for me but it's interesting that is there but all in all it feels like

0:54:24a pretty solid release you know I don't know we're so far beyond the the years of each

0:54:32Mac OS release being a really big deal but in our current era Mojave feels like the biggest

0:54:38deal we've had in maybe three or four years you know maybe dating back to like El Cap

0:54:44even so I'm excited about it I haven't spent enough time with it to tell you that it's

0:54:49bulletproof yet as far as a beta is concerned but in my limited time with it it's been it's

0:54:55been a positive thing I think yeah I am perilously close to cutting over to this is the point

0:55:01and I've talked about it before on this podcast but there is that point where you have to

0:55:05use it and no amount of I've got you know I've got an external drive with it installed

0:55:11that I can boot off of I've got a laptop here that is a loaner from Apple that they sent

0:55:17when I was writing about the public beta I did my big public beta review so that's running

0:55:23it and that's great but none of these is the system I sit at all day now the downside is

0:55:28if I sit at it all day and logic breaks or Skype breaks or high audio hijack breaks or

0:55:34something else that I use to do my job that's really bad but at the same time I can't write

0:55:41about it having not really really used it like at some point when it comes time for

0:55:48release I need to speak as somebody who's been living in it so I think I'm close to

0:55:52that and the way that works functionally is that I will install the beta on my existing

0:55:58I'll back up then I'll install the beta on my existing and then I'll take that external

0:56:02drive that's currently running the Mojave beta and I will install a pristine copy of

0:56:07High Sierra on it so that I've got a place to retreat to in case of emergency and a couple

0:56:15years ago I had to use that a lot last year I didn't so I can we live in hope that I'll

0:56:21be able to actually do my job running Mojave and it won't be a problem but at some point

0:56:25I got to do it as dumb as it is in in one way to have your production machine be running

0:56:31a beta OS that's the job we have you and I yeah yeah cuz you're gonna review it yeah I'm

0:56:39gonna review it I think I'm kind of debating if it's one review or like a series of three

0:56:44or four kind of in-depth articles about the big features I may change it up this year

0:56:47but but yeah it's part of the gig and you know I think it's it's interesting Apple's

0:56:54clearly going to stay on this annual release cycle for Mac OS we've been on it a long time

0:57:00now and so I'm past the point of like kind of wishing that that wasn't the case and so

0:57:05it's much more about okay what what can they do what can they do this year and and of course

0:57:11the the proper way to think about it is not that what's Mojave ships they start on 10/15

0:57:17it's that some of these features span multiple years of work and they land at one point or

0:57:23another but I think the most interesting story moving forward from probably in Mojave but

0:57:28definitely after it is going to be those apps coming over from iOS Mojave shows what four

0:57:36of them are like there's a lot of weird stuff there you can kill a single process and bring

0:57:40down the whole like they kind of live in their own environment structurally within the OS

0:57:45and if you bring that that environment down they all crash which is sort of hilarious

0:57:49but there there is clearly day one or before being before day one on these apps and it's

0:57:58going to be important to pay attention to how Apple rolls them out how they change and

0:58:01evolve things like the the like the date picker and the home app has gotten a lot of grief

0:58:08because it's the carousel date picker from iOS well Apple could redo that or they may

0:58:15not and you can't actually mix UI kit and app kit elements in these apps they're all

0:58:23sort of iOS structured as far as the interface and so are we on the cusp of the Mac looking

0:58:31like iOS a lot more in three or four years ago I just don't know and so those are sort

0:58:35of the questions that I'm thinking about this summer and spending time with it and spending

0:58:39time with these apps and trying to provide some sort of thought process around where

0:58:45are we today and where's it going I think the on this past weekend's ATP episode they

0:58:52talked about that how somebody I don't know where whether it was game Rambo or or see

0:58:58John Smith found out that like the build I think it was Steve Tran Smith found the build

0:59:02numbers are the same across the OS is so that the suggestion there is that is that these

0:59:08are basically the iOS apps and that part of what's going on here is you know the iOS apps

0:59:14run and they run as Mac apps too and what I came away from that thinking was that's

0:59:20exciting because for this to work it needs to be like that for this to work you need

0:59:26to be able to like do the work in your app and have it work this way on the Mac and this

0:59:30way on iOS and this is not going to work if what this is is a method to make like a copy

0:59:36of your app and then tweak it and have it run on the Mac like I think for this to be

0:59:42truly broadly successful it needs to be as smooth a process from the iOS developers standpoint

0:59:49as possible to to not just to move it over but to keep it updated and so yeah I mean

0:59:55it's logical like it's one app it's not it's not you but you don't break it off and then

1:00:00make the Mac version using tools that are special that make it easier like that that

1:00:05is not that does not seem to be the end goal here and that's good it shouldn't be the goal

1:00:09here is not to let you do a fork for the Mac the goal is you update your iOS app and now

1:00:15it runs on the Mac as a Mac app that's that so we'll see how it goes because I too have

1:00:20gotten that that you what is it the UI kit server has crashed and like literally all

1:00:27of those apps just die at once and that is a you know very different kind of experience

1:00:33it's a beta we are like you said it's not day zero it's like day minus 70 or whatever

1:00:38we have time but yeah I think it's fascinating and it is the most interesting Mac OS release

1:00:45in a long time speaking of Mac OS releases by the way I think what would be fun here

1:00:52in the summer of fun is to do a draft do you agree I'm I'm scared for it okay because the

1:01:02good news is we're gonna draft versions of OS 10 yes or Mac OS if you prefer which I

1:01:07don't but either way Mac OS 10 we'll call it it covers all of the areas you don't know

1:01:13how we spelled it we just said it out loud Mac OS 10 anyway we're gonna do that we're

1:01:18gonna do a really quick draft and we're gonna do it right after I tell you about our third

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1:02:54today thank you anchor for supporting this show and giving aspiring podcasters an easy

1:02:59way to get started and also Stephen yes okay I am the host of this episode so therefore

1:03:06I'm gonna let you go first we're gonna draft six three each OS 10 versions from the catalog

1:03:12of by my count 17 different possible OS 10 versions so tell me what's your first pick

1:03:19in the OS 10 draft and why my first pick is 10.2 Jaguar and they may not seem like an

1:03:28obvious pick because you think well that's like you know a later release it's not the

1:03:32first first one but it's the first one that was sort of usable it was stable it was much

1:03:40faster than the first two versions it was the first version I used on a regular basis

1:03:44so there's some nostalgia in this one but most importantly Jaguar was the the OS that

1:03:49introduced a lot of system apps to Mac OS 10 so iBook iCal Safari iChat some apps you

1:03:57may have heard of they all got their start on 10.2 and it made like file browsing to

1:04:05Windows a bunch of stuff better but those core apps that we think of like at the heart

1:04:09of OS 10 weren't there until 10.2 and I think that's that's a pretty big win for this release

1:04:18it's good I I have a different one that I think of as the first usable version I should

1:04:24say what are our qualifications by the way both of us have the ability to run and have

1:04:29installed somewhere near our near us right now every version of the OS 10 we have we

1:04:35have old computers you and I I actually bought some old computers so I could do that now

1:04:40who would do that I actually have been out just a little share a little news here in

1:04:45the middle of our draft I've been working on a project to do extensive screenshots of

1:04:50every version of Mac OS 10 and working on it since the end of last year it's almost

1:04:55done and so I have run all of these in the last six months or so so I have spent lots

1:05:02of time with them you've been witnessing the evolution of Mac OS 10 and fast forward yes

1:05:07yeah 15 years of history in six months that's pretty cool also a lot of brush metal man

1:05:12it's a lot yeah I think the number one thing that I like about about Jaguar is that Steve

1:05:18Jobs always pronounced it Jaguar yeah it's weird right yeah how did you how did you end

1:05:23up with that I don't know I had a I had a boss who did the same thing I thought it's

1:05:28like that's that's weird there's no that's not how you say that word but people do I

1:05:33know that they Jaguar like car company it's like Jaguar or something like that but we

1:05:38nobody called it Mac OS 10 10.2 Jaguar probably not I'm gonna pick 10.8 mount line ooh ooh

1:05:48outline so a couple reasons one is the line broke a lot of stuff yeah yeah line was weird

1:05:54um yeah and as a podcaster I will tell you they completely overhauled the the sound subsystem

1:06:01in 10.7 and broke everything like everything like we at Mac world I believe when I left

1:06:09Mac world we still had our podcast room iMac running 10.6 snow leopard because lion broke

1:06:15everything we used and if it wasn't that we had just updated it and I think there was

1:06:21still a bootable 10.6 it was it was not good so mountain lion fixed it not everything that

1:06:27lion broke but a lot of stuff that line broke got addressed but my my number one reason

1:06:32for picking it is it's a little bit personal which is this was the surprise OS release

1:06:40yeah I got called by Apple PR to come for a Mac related briefing at Cupertino and I

1:06:46walked in and they said so we're releasing OS 10 mountain lion next week like what and

1:06:56I for those of us who are now on the the annual update wagon right where it gets announced

1:07:02WWC it ships in the fall there were no rumors that there was a full-on new version of OS

1:07:0810 coming and this happened in like June or July it was not it was not tied to WWDC nobody

1:07:16talked about it and then boom they didn't again they didn't announce it they shipped

1:07:24it they shipped it and so I walked into that that that is the biggest surprise because

1:07:31he like even the iPod there was a rumor that Apple is doing an mp3 player we we had an

1:07:34idea the biggest surprise I've ever gotten an Apple product briefing where I walked in

1:07:39and they said yeah we have a new version of OS 10 and shipping next week and you're under

1:07:43embargo and I'm also proud to say nobody blew the embargo I think there was a story that

1:07:51mentioned there might be a new version of OS 10 coming the night before and it was like

1:07:56a one-liner in a larger column but basically it didn't leak and that led to a very funny

1:08:02moment when people didn't believe me I posted my story and I tweeted saying you know OS

1:08:1110 mountain lion is coming out and here's my full review and people are like this is

1:08:17a joke right like no and then you know Jim Dow Rimbels posted and and you know all these

1:08:24other people posted theirs and then that was the moment where we're like oh yeah mg Siegler

1:08:28who I actually ran into coming out of my briefing and and he and I shared shared a look and

1:08:34I will remember forever which is like what just happened like neither of us could believe

1:08:39that they had managed to sneak this one by so not only was mountain lion a nice let's

1:08:45update stuff let's fix a lot of bugs kind of midpoint release that tend to be the favorites

1:08:50because they focus a little bit more on the on not taking big steps but instead sort of

1:08:55just getting everything to work right but that was the that was the surprise release

1:08:59surprise brand new version of OS 10 you didn't even know it was here now it's here it it

1:09:04was high on my list for those reasons it also brought notification center and messages so

1:09:11it again is a release that sort of added things that we now just view as like core tenants

1:09:16of the OS my review of it referred to iOS apps coming to the Mac in a very different

1:09:22way than in my mind reminders some other stuff so yeah it was a good pick Jason it's good

1:09:28it was a lot of oh yeah all our all our Mac users use iOS we should probably get those

1:09:33things in sync there's a lot of that in there too yeah what do you have a lemon though lots

1:09:37of lemon yeah I'm gonna go with the crowd favorite because I'm a man of the people and

1:09:42I'm gonna pick snow leopard yeah just taking this long it's really only two picks and I

1:09:48almost picked it it's really your own fault for picking Jaguar instead of snow leopard

1:09:52first it should've gone first I know yeah I wanted to throw you a right hook at the

1:09:57beginning yeah I mean it's not up right what more can you say right it is I think by far

1:10:02people's most favorite version of Mac OS I'm not sure that's completely earned it wasn't

1:10:08as buck free as people remember it being but of course if it's it's famous for no new features

1:10:13that really wasn't true because it included exchange support included lots of under the

1:10:18hood stuff so open CL we counted it was it was it was either more than 100 or more than

1:10:23200 new features if you counted yeah so despite the no new features thing that they said it

1:10:27actually was massive in terms of the stuff they added but it wasn't it was a bunch of

1:10:32like little stuff mostly and then sort of tinkering it was not not quite as focused

1:10:37on like a big marketing feature right it was also notable is the first release that dropped

1:10:42power PC support so snow leopard is what was much smaller in terms of disk space from leopard

1:10:48that's because they got rid of all the power PC stuff but also they did some file system

1:10:53encryption stuff for the first time so kind of layering in some stuff that's now really

1:10:59core to the the underpinnings of Mac OS but you know everybody everyone loves snow leopard

1:11:04right like people get excited about Grand Central dispatch whatever but people love

1:11:08snow leopard you gotta you gotta put it in the draft yeah no I think I think you're playing

1:11:13to the crowd and well done yeah I can hear the applause from here yeah yeah you may be

1:11:19maybe there's a parade moving along outside your house I don't know I'm I'm going to counter

1:11:25your Jaguar with 10-1 puma because I feel like this was the one we we spent several

1:11:34years writing about OS X as this kind of theoretical construct Rhapsody the public beta and even

1:11:41the 10 10 0 beta or the 10 0 which was basically a beta and it was slow it was not something

1:11:47it was the thing you installed on a separate partition and booted into and said oh yeah

1:11:52this will be the future and then went back to classic because it was just not any good

1:11:57and then 10-1 came out and I remember distinctly because I wrote the this the first OS X that

1:12:03I wrote the I wrote the big article in macworld about the 10-0 I edited it but there was a

1:12:08different writer and the 10-1 I wrote it and I remember sitting there thinking yeah you

1:12:13know you can use this which is not to say that 10-2 wasn't way more usable and faster

1:12:20and and those early days of OS X every release was faster for a while it's kind of amazing

1:12:26when you think about it now that we think about OS is they get older and they get slower

1:12:30unless you've got new hardware but these were faster on existing hardware because they kept

1:12:35optimizing them but 10-1 was the one where I was like it was pretty slow 10-0 is pretty

1:12:39low bar is amazingly slow so 10-1 was like I think people could actually use this now

1:12:45in my article I actually say this is what we've been waiting for it's more reliable

1:12:50it's faster the interface is better and it's actually got more software on it than 10-0

1:12:56so what I said back then in 2001 was the first version of OS X that's truly ready for general

1:13:01use and I will stand by it although I will point out the very next sentence is although

1:13:07it's still not a feature for feature match for OS 9 it's still missing things right that

1:13:15but it's a but it was a what I said back in 2001 was it's no longer a step backward it

1:13:20was more of a sidestep where there were the new things you got for using OS X but some

1:13:24of the other stuff you had to leave behind but and I will say in proof that some things

1:13:30never change Apple's line about 10-1 was it's all about performance. I'll say this one thing

1:13:38I don't think you mentioned it was free it was free if you if you own 10-0 it was the

1:13:43initial because this is in the era where where OS updates cost like cost 50 or 60 bucks 100

1:13:48bucks whatever it was right yeah I mean Apple charged 129 dollars for the majority of it

1:13:53in his life how about that it's hard to believe now again but that there was and this one

1:13:58was free and I believe this is the first one that we referred to as the apology update

1:14:04where it was like 10-0 was so bad and you had to pay for it I mean and again it was

1:14:10the future of course it was bad because it was new and they were really struggling but

1:14:13it was not like I said it was more of a curiosity and like what the future was going to be and

1:14:18so Apple in being very considerate I think said if you already bought 10-0 you get 10-1

1:14:24like they you didn't you didn't you could I don't know if you could download it but

1:14:28there was a package that was basically like the free upgrade from 10-0 yeah I've got it

1:14:33yeah I think I've got a couple of those it didn't even come in a full box it was like

1:14:37a little envelope sleeve yeah yeah yeah so that there is that too that it was free but

1:14:41the reason it was free is that really they're like no no no stop using 10-0 we're sorry

1:14:46here's 10-1 right well that they you you have a very limited window to make a good impression

1:14:51of your of your new OS that you've been talking about for four years and 10-0 didn't fulfill

1:14:57those promises 10-1 I think was them trying to bring people bring people on board a little

1:15:03bit more I'm gonna go with my last pick I'm gonna do something a little more modern but

1:15:10weird I'm gonna go with 10.10 Yosemite huh brought obviously a new user interface so it

1:15:18was the end of sort of the really like lickable aqua that have been downplayed over the years

1:15:24but you look at 10-9 Mavericks and 10-10 Yosemite they're very different and 10-10 is flat it

1:15:30also holds the title of the only release of Mac OS X to use Helvetica as the system font

1:15:36which boy is it weird looking now we're used to San Francisco which they did just a year

1:15:41later but there's it's strange to see Helvetica everywhere I kind of like it but it's the

1:15:48only one and I think that that makes it special it also brought continuity to the Mac so you

1:15:56know moving things back and forth between your iPhone your Mac more fluidly it brought

1:16:01the photos app so replaced iPhoto with photos which also brought Apple's photo management

1:16:07app into the system iPhoto was for a long time a separate purchase through iLife and

1:16:13then sort of individually on the App Store and it was free if you bought a new Mac but

1:16:17photos is part of the core OS so it brought photo management into the OS really for the

1:16:21first time and it brought with that new design that brought sort of what we now call baby

1:16:27dark mode where the dock and the menu bar and things like spotlight would be would be

1:16:32dark not at all what we see in Mojave of course but a big perhaps the biggest visual overhaul

1:16:40Mac OS X has ever seen the rest of it was sort of a slow evolution you're dropping brush

1:16:44metal dropping the pinstripes going all all gray but Yosemite was a big break and one

1:16:50that we're still in that era and I think that I think that makes it worth worth a draft

1:16:59pick over some of the others it's nice that's good one for my last pick and the last pick

1:17:04of this little mini draft you know if I hadn't picked Puma I would go back to the old days

1:17:10because I feel nostalgic about the public beta it was so weird and yet at the same time

1:17:16that was the moment the public beta that was the moment where Apple was saying here's the

1:17:22future of the Mac and and it has proven out to be yes that look like for two decades this

1:17:29is it this is the Mac that it is now eclipsed the classic Mac OS in terms of being kind

1:17:35of like out in the world the primary Mac OS so I I thought really hard about picking it

1:17:41but but I think Puma it has gotten me covered on that end so I'm going to go on the other

1:17:46end and I'm just going to be a shameless crowd pleaser and say Mojave I think Mojave as we've

1:17:53talked about in a few different places is the first time in a long time where it feels

1:18:00like Apple is really putting some effort into its conception of what the Mac is going to

1:18:04be today and going forward and I think there are a bunch of features in it that are really

1:18:09interesting including the UI overhaul for dark mode but a lot more beyond that that

1:18:13are interesting in and of themselves and then the running iOS apps on the Mac even if it's

1:18:20just those four apps like it points the direction for the future and it is a huge not just a

1:18:26huge step for the Mac but it's a very large investment in Apple's software development

1:18:31for the Mac and as a Mac user the last few years it's been like you know it continues

1:18:38to be a product in their lineup but they are making an effort because this is Apple saying

1:18:43no the Mac is important it's important for pro users and it's important for kind of their

1:18:47long term computing strategy in some way how do they fit the Mac and iOS together without

1:18:55necessarily merging them together but how they fit together so that five years out it

1:19:00makes sense something that kind of doesn't make sense now which is hi we're a company

1:19:04that has two totally different operating systems so that's a bit that's a big deal so I think

1:19:08in the end Mojave will be proven to be kind of like the branching off point although if

1:19:13I really wanted to pick like how history views like major OS updates I should probably pick

1:19:181015 because that's the one where it opens the floodgates but for now have a name for

1:19:24now 1014 well it'll be Joshua tree I think 1015 Joshua tree but 1014 Mojave that's the

1:19:30last pick that's great I think I think that all makes all makes sense do you have any

1:19:37runners-up that you were disappointed you can squeeze in no I mean public beta is the

1:19:41one that was my runner-up that I had on my list and I thought about just because that

1:19:45is the start of it all in in a lot of ways like the first thing that really felt like

1:19:49os10 or the Rhapsody stuff didn't it was basically next step yeah yeah yeah but public beta was

1:19:57like yeah okay here we are we weave although public beta public beta still had the Apple

1:20:01logo in the middle of the menu bar that didn't do anything right no that was just Rhapsody

1:20:06or was that the public I think no I think it was a developer preview maybe oh yeah John

1:20:10Syracuse was already I was already yeah yeah okay yeah okay my only one that didn't get

1:20:16in would have been 10 3 Panther I think for the same reason I picked Jaguar that a lot

1:20:21of like core stuff that we think about being os10 was present in Panther fast user switching

1:20:28expose file vault the sidebar and finder finder in 10 01 and 2 is really weird because you

1:20:38don't have the sidebar you know where you could like see your home folder or stuff you

1:20:42know the way we think about the finder now they introduced that as saying hey we have

1:20:47the sidebar and iTunes a playlist we just ported that to finder and it made a lot of

1:20:52sense and it sort of put the user at the center of the computer and not the local hard drive

1:20:58at the center of the computer when you went to navigate for stuff so Panther I think is

1:21:02my runner-up but I think this is good this was a lot of fun I was very excited when you

1:21:08suggested this for this episode no that's good I'm glad I'm glad we're fun it is the

1:21:12summer fun this is this is why we do fun things we do fun things all year round but in the

1:21:16summer there the summer fun that's it's more fun I want to do some ask upgrade quickly before

1:21:21we go yes you got your lasers run at a different frequency than my lasers but I'll accept it

1:21:28I'll accept it it's like laser pellets all right listener Jason upgrading Jason who is

1:21:34not me says face ID on iPad means iOS 12 is definitely going to have support for multiple

1:21:39faces it doesn't make sense otherwise right I don't I don't see where how you got from

1:21:46a to be yeah I I agree I think I think the suggestion there is that on iPad iPad is more

1:21:53of a multiple user device although Apple has not proven that since they even you know they

1:21:58don't let regular people use a multiple user feature on iPad and the one on schools is

1:22:02kind of super weird and janky for school use the iOS 12 beta has this additional appearance

1:22:09kind of thing for faces and I think that is their way of letting you get multiple faces

1:22:17in there in some way but I think that's probably it unless there's like a an announcement that

1:22:22goes on with like new hardware that says we're explicitly going to support multiple faces

1:22:28on new hardware and I think that only makes it like I don't really think the iPads multiple

1:22:34user like people use it that way but it's not what I want to see is true multi-user

1:22:39support for everybody and think you know hold my breath for a while longer I think yeah

1:22:46I actually checked slack to see if John Siracusa had already complained to us now he's got

1:22:51a job yeah he's not listening to us now he'll complain later but it's like the developer

1:22:55preview yeah that would have been a good one too um listener Chris wrote in to say how

1:23:00do you pocket your phone bottom up or down screen facing toward or away from your leg

1:23:05that's good I've been very consistent with this it's my front right pocket with nothing

1:23:12else in it and it is bottom down so notch first on the iPhone 10 and screen facing the

1:23:20leg not first is not first is bottom up yeah you said bottom down bottom but the top goes

1:23:30in first yes is very confusing notch down notch down notch down in your right pocket

1:23:35and the screen is facing your leg yes even though in the iPhone 10 it's more expensive

1:23:39to break the back than the front screen and feels much better to my mind so that's a good

1:23:45point I hadn't even thought of that because yeah for me it's a left pocket and it is notched

1:23:51down and the screen facing my leg so that if if it if there's some cataclysm that hits

1:23:59my leg it'll hit the back of my phone but yeah yeah and that way then I reach in with

1:24:04my left hand and pick it up and I got my phone good question though Daniel wants to know

1:24:12will Apple be able to fix the MacBook keyboards without the seemingly essential step of making

1:24:17the devices thicker haven't they painted themselves into a thinness corner could they could they

1:24:23stomach thicker MacBook pros I mean I think this may have come in before the the announcement

1:24:29but I think there's a truth in this right which is if they wanted to do something truly

1:24:34different they would need to redesign the case and they may do that in terms I mean

1:24:42the MacBook Air is pretty thin and it's got more key travel so like if they wanted to

1:24:47introduce more key travel I am confident that the that the Wizards at Apple could do that

1:24:52but they won't do it in the existing hardware generation because I think there's just that's

1:24:56way too complex to tweak something that major and keep everything else the same at that

1:25:01point you're just redesigning the entire case and so I think if it happens at all it would

1:25:06have to happen a year or two out when they do a new hardware generation agreed I totally

1:25:13agree okay Zach wants to know a serious post wedding question who was the Apple related

1:25:21tech podcast designated survivor who was not in London in case of a disaster in London

1:25:28who did we designate to carry on for us and I was thinking about it's like like you know

1:25:33there's a bunch like grouper I guess Dan Moran Merlin there's you know there's lots of there's

1:25:41lots of podcasters out there who aren't who aren't the entire cast of relay who was there

1:25:47yeah Myke doesn't have Myke doesn't co-host a podcast with everybody it would have been

1:25:52fine just most people yeah no ATP would have been gone there ATP would have been eradicated

1:25:57it's true yeah and upgrade and a bunch of the relay podcast but there are many look

1:26:02accidentally terminated by yeah I was gonna say to take a page from the Marvel movies

1:26:07cut off one podcaster and two will take its place so don't don't worry about it there's

1:26:14always more podcasters very messy but it is how it works yeah that's totally how it works

1:26:18don't try this at home Pat wants to know do you think Apple would ever consider making

1:26:23a compact iPhone in the spirit of the old candy bar size phones possibly running a beefed

1:26:28up version of watch OS not the iPhone SE something even smaller and simpler at the

1:26:32two 199 to 249 price point no I don't think Apple cares about that market you know there's

1:26:40a report out today that they're like bleeding money in India I just don't think I don't

1:26:45think this is a product they want to make I I agree with you I think that I think that's

1:26:50the that's the simple version of that is I have a hard time seeing Apple investing a

1:26:54lot of money and creating almost a different platform just to make a $200 phone I think

1:26:59they would rather try to sell the iPhone from three years ago in those markets or something

1:27:05like the SE and I don't I don't think they want to go below that the same reason this

1:27:08is by the way the exact same reason why I don't think Apple will make a $400 laptop

1:27:13running Mac OS because they're not interested in that market they're just they're never

1:27:18going to do that that's why there's also not going to be a $99 iPad not interested yeah

1:27:22just that's not the that's not Apple's business model Corey wants to know will we see USB

1:27:28C on iPhones and iPads that's interesting I mean I think there were some speculation

1:27:35that the USB C like the female port and all kind of the stuff the structure around it

1:27:40is thicker than what they what lightning requires and we all know Apple likes thinness I don't

1:27:48know what USB C gives them that lightning doesn't because you can do fast charging over

1:27:53lightning you can do USB 3 transfers over lightning and the downside is you have to

1:27:59live through another port transition and those of us who around during the dock connector

1:28:04to lightning switch we all have scars from that because everyone freaked out and I don't

1:28:09think Apple wants to do that again and so I don't know what it gets them and there's

1:28:13a big downside so I think I think they're fine with lightning yeah what do you think

1:28:16I think that's true I think I mean we're it sounds like the rumors are we're going to

1:28:20see a USB C transition on the charging end this time which is fine because you can put

1:28:27more power through that cable and they're going to have a bigger adapter and it's great

1:28:30that's fine on the other other side yeah I don't see it either like Apple went to all

1:28:34the trouble Apple new USB C was coming and they went to all the trouble of making lightning

1:28:37I'm not sure if they had known and didn't do anything like I it would seem like a really

1:28:44weird sidestep for them to now move and lightning serves their purposes better on those devices

1:28:49than USB C that said I'm gonna I'm gonna put this out there again wearing my hat as sorry

1:28:56that's gonna make you feel like you're unconnected for a minute where where my hat is an iPad

1:28:59person oh yeah I think the iPad Pro needs USB C needs should get USB C because I think

1:29:07part of the transition in the iPad Pro to truly being a kind of like professional level

1:29:11device over time maybe not this year but sometime is have a little bit better USB device support

1:29:17and that has to be in the OS and then have a USB port and like it's like a computer because

1:29:23there's stuff that uses USB and you know it would be like oh you don't need to buy a dongle

1:29:27for that it's just got a USB C on it do I think that will actually happen no I don't

1:29:32I think the best we can hope for is that there will be a little a little dongle that will

1:29:36continue to be a USB 3 lightning dongle it would be nice if maybe you know it would be

1:29:43nice if they didn't it would be nice if they they said yeah it really is a computer it

1:29:46even has a USB port but the problem with that is that that actually requires a major iOS

1:29:53update to support more USB devices than they currently support but you know some of it's

1:29:57already there they could do more and I would like to see it on that side but I think that's

1:30:01the only place in iOS that you would likely see it as if they made either an iPad Pro

1:30:05with a USB port or if they made an iOS laptop at some point that iBook mythical iBook that

1:30:10would be again a place where you might see a USB C port that's about it yeah I can I

1:30:15can go with that uh Bosey wants to know to wrap us up how's Myke handling England's World

1:30:22Cup loss to Croatia I mean he's not even here he's so torn up about it yeah I don't think

1:30:30Myke cares he does he Myke literally you know there are two kinds of nerds in our our community

1:30:35the ones who care about sports or sport and the ones who don't and Myke is firmly in the

1:30:40ones who don't to the point where I'll put it this way Myke and Adina's wedding reception

1:30:46we mentioned this last week was on it happened during England's World Cup match with Sweden

1:30:53and the venue for the reception said we could put a TV somewhere if people really want to

1:30:58watch England and first Myke is thinking well most of the people here are from not all but

1:31:03many of the people like what 80% of the people at the wedding 90% of the people at the wedding

1:31:08are either Americans or Romanians so they don't care very few Swedes some English people

1:31:16and then second he didn't want that to become the center of attention of his wedding reception

1:31:21so those of us who cared were like checking our phones and but this is my point is if

1:31:28my wedding reception was happening during a World Series game featuring my favorite

1:31:31team there would be a TV Myke was not just I think he made the right call but it also

1:31:40was because he just doesn't care and that's fine I think that was the right call regardless

1:31:44but it made easier by the fact that he didn't care well that is all of ask upgrade Stephen

1:31:50Hackett thank you so much for joining me as my special guest in the summer of fun while

1:31:56Myke is off splish splashing around in his own honeymoon in a tropical location yeah

1:32:02I can't believe he's taken almost four years for soon upgrade to go well you know it was

1:32:06at the beginning it was like well I could always use Stephen as the guest host but it's

1:32:11like oh but what if I got Merlin what if I got Serenity what if I got John Siracusa I

1:32:15thought you know the result of that is that I've never had you as the guest upgrade so

1:32:19I thought this would be a good time we also do other podcasts together we should point

1:32:23out we do lift off every other week about space and related subjects and you should

1:32:28listen to it because you don't have to be a rocket scientist to care about what goes

1:32:32on in space we care and we're not rocket scientists and then every week we do we do download together

1:32:38that is sort of put out there as download with with me but Stephen is the producer of

1:32:44download and appears on almost every episode and will sometimes jump in but also helps

1:32:48put it together which is part of the the subnet plan as well because you're watching the headlines

1:32:53for subnet and also for download and it all kind of goes together so so it's not like

1:32:57we don't talk but but not on on upgrade it took it took us 202 episodes to get there

1:33:03so thank you well I'll be glad to be back anytime well we'll have to have you back and

1:33:08before episode 404 hopefully that episode 404 file not found anyway and that we found

1:33:13so next week the summer of fun rolls on yes indeed summer with a surprise guest or two

1:33:22I will tell you it is two surprise guests plus coming in live from his honeymoon not

1:33:27true pre-taped Myke Hurley as well and we have a great episode that we recorded a few

1:33:34weeks ago about iPad and iPad productivity and I was 12 on the iPad and a whole bunch

1:33:40of other stuff like that great guests you're gonna love it that'll be next week and I want

1:33:46to thank our sponsors because Myke always does that because he's very nice mail route

1:33:50pingdom and anchor and until next week say goodbye Stephen Hackett adios bye everybody

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