187: Whiz-Bang Wonderfulness

0:00:00[Music]

0:00:08From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 187. Today's show is brought to you by Pingdom,

0:00:15Casper, and Peacock. My name is Myke Hurley, I am joined by Mr. Jason Snow. Hello, Jason Snow.

0:00:21Hi Myke, I'm back in my garage now and Alex Cox isn't like peering at me from behind a curtain.

0:00:27So it's different. It would be concerning, I think. That would be a little weird, because

0:00:31I didn't invite her over if she was lurking, but she's not.

0:00:36Our #SnailTalk question this week comes from Will, and this is baseball-related because

0:00:40I understand that the season is open, or however it is you refer to it in baseball world.

0:00:45Sure. Yeah, the season is open. That's exactly what we say.

0:00:48Open for play. Will wants to know, "Jason, if you had the ability to play for the Giants,

0:00:54I believe, are your team. San Francisco Giants? What position would you want to play and what

0:00:59would be your walk-up music?

0:01:03Well position-wise, I always played, when I played baseball in like little league, I

0:01:10was mostly a second baseman so I would probably choose that, although in rec softball in college

0:01:16I sometimes played first base, so something like that.

0:01:19So you're a catcher, you're in the field at that point, right?

0:01:23It's not a catcher is a position that is not generic term, so you can't say I'm a catcher.

0:01:28That would be literally the catcher is the person who sits behind home plate and catches

0:01:32the pitches from the pitcher.

0:01:34I did that a little bit too, but that's not for me.

0:01:37But that's your predominant role, is it then, to catch the ball?

0:01:40Do you ever hit the ball?

0:01:41I don't know how baseball works.

0:01:43I very well know you all, so everybody who plays in the field also has to hit the ball.

0:01:48Except in some circumstances for the pitcher, who is sometimes swapped out for a person

0:01:52who can hit. But that's complication levels we don't want to. When you're not a bat, when

0:01:56you're not on that side, you would be standing at second base. That's where you want to be.

0:02:00Yeah, and actually the second, one of the things I had to learn when I was a kid and

0:02:02I was playing second base is that you don't stand on the base when you're second base.

0:02:06Second base is to toward the first base side of second base. You stand, because there's

0:02:11a shortstop who stands on the other side of second base. Of course there is. It's complicated.

0:02:15Anyway, my walk-up music, and I want to just mention because it makes me laugh every time

0:02:20I think about it that my friend Philip Michaels has explained that his walk-up music would

0:02:25be the Soviet national anthem, which just I think would be hilarious. I think that's

0:02:32a wrestling reference, Myke. You might actually even get that one. Because I think there was

0:02:35a wrestler who they played, he was supposedly the, he was a heel and he was from the Soviet

0:02:41Union and everybody would boo him as he entered to the Soviet national anthem. Anyway, I think

0:02:46it's got to be "Don't Dream It's Over" by Crowded House, right? Like, I think that would

0:02:50have to be it. That's my walk-up music for the Pundit Showdown podcast when we did that

0:02:54at Macworld. So I think that would have to be it.

0:02:59That's a good choice, and honestly, if I would have written an answer for you, that would

0:03:03have been the answer I would have written down. I know how much you love that song.

0:03:06It's a great song! That's gotta be it. Gotta be it.

0:03:09So we have some follow-up about iBooks Author. In the last episode, after we were talking

0:03:15about the education event. We are under the impression that the inclusion of digital book

0:03:21publishing tools or digital book creation tools, I should say, in pages meant that iBooks

0:03:25author was going to be dead. But Serenity Caldwell confirmed with Apple that iBooks

0:03:29author is continuing as its own standalone product and that the pages update is not a

0:03:34replacement for it.

0:03:36Continues to exist. We have our shovels out, we were ready to bury it, and Serenity broke

0:03:42down the doors and was like, "No, no, no. It's still alive. Don't bury it yet." Although,

0:03:47I have a hard time believing that they're going to put much effort into iBooks Author.

0:03:50I hope I'm wrong, but I think it's more likely that they would upgrade the book publishing

0:03:56stuff inside of Pages and then keep iBooks Author around just for the people who are

0:04:02already using it. You can definitely do stuff with iBooks Author that you can't do with Pages.

0:04:07And that format is still supported in iBooks and only iBooks. But this is good news for people.

0:04:12like our friend David Sparks who do books in iBooks author format, that they can still

0:04:17do that and it's okay.

0:04:19And Jason, iBooks author remains a product in our lineup, but there is nothing more to

0:04:23say about it today.

0:04:24Yeah, I actually asked somebody at Apple about it. I actually asked somebody at Apple and

0:04:29I said, "So iBooks author continues to be a product?" And they said, "Yep." I was like,

0:04:34"All right, well."

0:04:35It will continue with the same or little as treatment as it has received over the last

0:04:41few years.

0:04:42I'm just imagining iBooks author giving Apple a big hug, like, "Thank you for keeping me

0:04:46around and Apple's got its arms out." Like, "Mm, yeah, okay, stop hugging me now."

0:04:51Or it's like it's going for the hug but it's making a face over iBooks author's shoulder.

0:04:58Yeah. Yeah.

0:04:59Oh dear. Well, it still exists. It's still there. I mean, I guess it's good because there

0:05:04are more tools in it, right? So my feeling is it exists for now. I would be very surprised

0:05:11if they didn't just continue to make pages better or write quicker than they

0:05:15make iBooks Author better, but we'll see.

0:05:16Yeah.

0:05:17And we didn't do any Upstream last week because of the event.

0:05:21And there were a few interesting topics that we wanted to talk about.

0:05:24So let's get into that right now.

0:05:26We're going to start off by saying that Amy Apolo, you may know from Parks

0:05:29and Recreation, who we mentioned in the last week's episode, because it was

0:05:31your favorite of the two between Parks and Rec and The Office, is making her

0:05:35directorial debut with Netflix.

0:05:38It is a comedy movie called Wine Country, which tells the story of a group of old friends

0:05:43who go to Napa for a weekend getaway to celebrate a 50th birthday.

0:05:46It is a really great and huge cast, including Maya Rudolph, Rachel Dratch, and many more.

0:05:53So that's going to be interesting to see.

0:05:54Tina Fey is of course going to be doing some kind of walk-on role in the movie, right?

0:05:59She's going to be in it.

0:06:00But yeah, I'm excited to see this.

0:06:03So this is fascinating because this is one of those questions of would this have been

0:06:07a, would this have been a movie before, a theatrical release before, and there's just

0:06:12no room for it.

0:06:14Or is this a smaller kind of story that would have been maybe 15, 20 years ago would have

0:06:20been a TV movie or something, which they kind of don't do anymore, and so now it's a Netflix

0:06:25movie.

0:06:26I don't know, but I think this is interesting.

0:06:27Well, it's like it never would have existed, right?

0:06:28Like it maybe never would have happened.

0:06:31Hell yeah, because a lot of stuff it's just, is there a place for something like this?

0:06:35And the advantage of having these streaming services is that they aren't as constrained

0:06:41as a theatrical release especially would be, and the networks don't do TV movies anymore.

0:06:46So whether this is something that would have five or ten years ago been a relatively kind

0:06:52of low-budget, low-to-mid-budget theatrical release, or whether it might have been in

0:06:57the TV movie, like a little bit cheaper TV movie camp,

0:06:59which now the TV movies only really are like on,

0:07:02on like HBO or things like that,

0:07:04or they're films released on Netflix.

0:07:07So interesting.

0:07:08And that's what, that is what, I mean,

0:07:11I think Amy Poe is really funny

0:07:13and this could be really good,

0:07:14but I think it's also really interesting

0:07:15that this is not necessarily a piece of content

0:07:18that would otherwise have existed.

0:07:21Other than having a platform like Netflix to put it.

0:07:23- Common with a lot of these types of productions,

0:07:27like her production company is producing it, um,

0:07:30along with another production company owned by Morgan Secut,

0:07:32who was a producer of Parks and Rec,

0:07:34a Parks and Rec writer is writing it with her and she has,

0:07:38and she's bringing in a lot of like colleagues and friends, right?

0:07:40Like this is becoming extremely common with these types of movies because it's

0:07:46like the stars have got enough money to put this type of thing together on a

0:07:51small budget,

0:07:52but they haven't got enough money to put it in cinemas.

0:07:56Right. Because that's like a whole different thing.

0:08:00Which means...

0:08:01Well, you know, the marketing cost of a major motion picture is vastly more than the cost

0:08:06to make the movie at this point.

0:08:08Yep. So, you know, and so basically my expectation is, right, they cover the production side,

0:08:14Netflix covers the marketing side, and they call it job done. And this allows for Amy

0:08:19Poehler to get a directorial credit on her IMDb page, right? So she continues to build

0:08:23herself up so like maybe in a couple years time she will have a feature film.

0:08:28Like this is this is this is why a lot of this stuff is is like so hot right

0:08:32now I think because it's allowing a lot of really talented creators to get their

0:08:37foot in the door. Right well this is and and you see how the business I mean

0:08:42there's a business aspect to this which is the money and the the strategizing

0:08:45about like where where the money is going going to Netflix you know it's

0:08:49going away from things like the networks and even some cable, but it also has this creative

0:08:55of the in the end the money story, the business story becomes a creative story too because

0:09:00there become outlets for stuff that wouldn't have existed before and opportunities. I was

0:09:06going to say the another example of this is just prestige. The existence of prestige television

0:09:12has completely melted the certainly for actors completely melted the distinction between

0:09:19film and television. Film stars, Academy Award winners do television now. I could come up

0:09:26with multiple examples of Academy Award winning actors and actresses who are stars of regular

0:09:33TV shows now, right? I mean, I just watched the finale of Counterpart last night with

0:09:39J.K. Simmons, who's an Oscar winner, and Allison Janney has a sitcom and she's an Oscar winner.

0:09:45you know, the list goes on, that's completely melted away. And then for writers too, there's

0:09:50that sense like writers, you know, TV is now a better place for writers and writers get

0:09:55to kind of run the show in a way that they don't necessarily in features because features

0:10:00are becoming more like a, you know, writers room that is dominated by the corporate organization

0:10:06that is investing hundreds of millions of dollars in each release because it's got to

0:10:12be marketed and targeted and all of those things. It's fascinating that you get, you

0:10:16know, the money machinery gets tweaked by, in a lot of cases, technology changes, but

0:10:25when the machine is running, then creative stuff pops out. And when you alter how the

0:10:30machine runs, different creative stuff pops out. And this is a great example of that.

0:10:35So yeah, it's fascinating. Here's an interesting one. YouTube have announced

0:10:40a movie called Vulture Club. It stars Academy Award winner Susan Sarandon, Eddie Falco and

0:10:47Matt Bomer. It's a drama.

0:10:49multiple Emmy winner Eddie Falco.

0:10:53It's a drama and YouTube are planning for a theatrical release in 2018 and it will be

0:10:59released on YouTube Red afterwards. And you say to yourself, that's weird. Why are YouTube,

0:11:05they have their own subscription service, why are they putting this movie into cinemas?

0:11:10Let me tell you why. They want it to win an Oscar. That's why.

0:11:13Yeah, that's it. That is actually becoming a very common thing. Amazon has done this

0:11:17too in a few different ways, and there are a couple ways to do it. One way you can put

0:11:21it in theaters is you can put it in a theater in New York and LA for a week, and it's eligible

0:11:27for the Oscars. But another way that some of these companies are doing it is they're

0:11:31giving it a theatrical release. Maybe not investing massively in marketing and all that,

0:11:37but they give it a legitimate theatrical release and then they put it on their streaming service

0:11:41afterward. And that qualifies it for awards and also potentially, you know, it gets in

0:11:46talking to Tim Goodman from the Hollywood Reporter, one of the, which I do a podcast

0:11:50with every week, one of the things that comes up is how hard it is to find stuff. And when

0:11:56you're a consumer, but like also how does something get reviewed? Like does a Netflix

0:12:01movie get reviewed? Do the movie reviewers review it? Do the TV reviewers review it or

0:12:07does it get caught like lost in the cracks, right? One of the advantages of giving your

0:12:11film a theatrical release before you put it on streaming is it's a movie. Everybody understands

0:12:16it's a movie and the movie reviewers review it. Whereas Amy Poehler's thing like, "Who's

0:12:20gonna review that?" Are movie reviewers gonna review it? Are TV reviewers gonna review it?

0:12:25Or is it going to be a neither fish nor foul situation?

0:12:28So lots of smart reasons for doing this.

0:12:31Netflix goes back and forth on this too, where Netflix wants to win Oscars.

0:12:35And they have.

0:12:36They won an Oscar for documentary feature for that film about Russia and the Russian

0:12:41doping scandal.

0:12:44But Netflix also does direct-to-Netflix releases where they're not eligible, and presumably

0:12:48they can win Emmy awards for that.

0:12:50I don't know.

0:12:51It's just a decision they have to make.

0:12:53Well on that note Netflix have been banned from Cannes because they are not going to be putting

0:12:58their next movies in theaters. This is so ridiculous to me. This is so ridiculous. I find

0:13:04this to be so old school and stupid. Like I don't understand why there is this like vice grip that

0:13:14they're trying to hold on theater releases when I know that there is an industry of people there

0:13:21that worked that way but there is a new industry building around streaming services and actors and

0:13:28actresses are finding and all production companies are finding new success in streaming services that

0:13:34wouldn't exist right we were just talking about that like that Amy Poehler movie may not have ever

0:13:38existed but it can exist because Netflix will put the money into it but now they're being banned

0:13:43from award ceremonies because they don't they don't want to kiss the ring of the old god I find it so

0:13:49change. Yeah, basically the Cannes Film Festival is saying you can't be eligible for any awards

0:13:54that can. You can screen your films if you want, but you can't be eligible for any awards unless

0:13:58you get a full French theatrical release. And Netflix was like, "All right, we'll put it out

0:14:04for a week in theaters and the whatever entity approves or disapproves that disapproved it."

0:14:10So nope, that's not good enough. And you're right. It is, you know, look, at some point either

0:14:18Netflix will decide that it's more important that they release the film in France because they want to get win the Palme d'Or in

0:14:25at the Cannes Film Festival or

0:14:27The Cannes Film Festival will say hey

0:14:30We would be better off letting Netflix come regardless

0:14:35Eventually something will give there, but you're right

0:14:39It is it is resistance and fear and I get it if they are the extension of the cinema owners in France and

0:14:47and more broadly around the world, then they may be saying, "Why should we give our

0:14:51cachet to these people who don't want to be in our theaters?" I get it, but it does

0:14:57seem a little foolish.

0:14:58Yeah, I understand it. I just think it's the wrong move. I mean, I think even, you

0:15:03know, if you want to look down on them, create a best streaming movie award, right? Like,

0:15:07they're not eligible for the big ones, but you can give them an award.

0:15:11Yeah, well, eligibility, award eligibility is a little silly anyway, right? Like, the

0:15:15Academy Awards, if I make a movie and it is the best two hour, you know, whatever is in

0:15:19the, what is it, 60, 70 minutes, whatever the feature length is upward, and it's the

0:15:27best one of those in the year, but it didn't go in theater in LA for a week. It just went

0:15:34on to Netflix. But it's, by far, everybody agrees, the best movie of the year. Why shouldn't

0:15:38it be eligible for an Oscar? And the answer is, well, there's got to be some eligibility

0:15:42requirement and that's it. So you pay your money to a theater and what the film festival

0:15:47is saying is, "No, that's not good enough. We're not going to let you skate in. You got

0:15:51to be a real movie with a real release or we're not going to be about you." And fair

0:15:56enough, I guess. It's their trophy. It's their festival. It's interesting that they're not

0:16:02banning them from coming. They're just banning them from getting awards. They can come, you

0:16:08- Yeah, pay us money, bring your--

0:16:09- Please, please.

0:16:10- Yeah, but just don't, anyway,

0:16:11it is fascinating to see how industries

0:16:14that are changing or dying react to that change.

0:16:18And this is an example of that.

0:16:20- And finally today, the New York Times

0:16:22have a report about Apple's upcoming video service

0:16:25and provide some information that we hadn't yet gotten,

0:16:29or at least some clarifications

0:16:31from wherever New York Times are getting their sources,

0:16:33whether it's from Apple, which it very well could be,

0:16:35or others.

0:16:37I can tell you where they got this source because they actually said,

0:16:40"Apple is saying to people that they're talking to now about doing shows."

0:16:44Okay, okay.

0:16:46That, so it's obviously from those people.

0:16:48So they're getting it from movie executives, right?

0:16:50Right, it's whoever they're making the deals with.

0:16:52They're saying to those people that they're targeting spring or summer of 2019

0:16:58to launch this thing, which I will refer you back to my previous,

0:17:05I felt good when I read this.

0:17:06I was like, oh, thank goodness.

0:17:07Because it was, you know, I said like quite a while ago,

0:17:11like almost a year ago now, that there's no way

0:17:13that they could get this done before at earliest late '18.

0:17:20And here we go.

0:17:20They're actually not even going to try to hit late '18,

0:17:23apparently.

0:17:23It's going to be early to mid '19 before they get it out

0:17:28there, because this stuff, it takes a long time

0:17:30to make TV shows.

0:17:32It really does.

0:17:33And they've got to have enough of them ready to go that they

0:17:35can start releasing them and promoting their service and they can't just trickle them out

0:17:40episode by episode. They've got to get a bunch of them ready to go. So spring/summer 2019.

0:17:45I expect we will probably start seeing the first trailers around iPhone time this year.

0:17:50I think they might start trickling stuff out then to try and start building the excitement

0:17:56for it. The New York Times also says that Apple is on track to spend significantly more

0:18:02than the previously reported $1 billion budget.

0:18:05I wonder if that was their content budget to get going in '17, and now that they're

0:18:10in '18 or talking about '19, that they're like, "Well, that was the first billion.

0:18:15Now we're into the next year.

0:18:17Now we've got a couple more billion."

0:18:18It could just be the possibility that when they started on this process, they found out

0:18:22that people were a lot more open to them than they had originally thought that they would

0:18:25be.

0:18:26And now it's like, "Well, okay, we have a lot of interesting stuff on the table.

0:18:30Let's wrap that budget up."

0:18:31Right?

0:18:32Keep in mind, it is rolling too.

0:18:35They don't spend a billion dollars and then walk away.

0:18:37To be honest, when you have a billion dollars

0:18:41to spend on launching your service, guess what?

0:18:44Year two, you spend a billion and a half more.

0:18:47Year three, you spend two billion.

0:18:49Year four, you spend four billion.

0:18:50- And really, really hope that you've got

0:18:51a lot of subscribers by that point.

0:18:53- Right, although your Apple, you've got a giant cash pile,

0:18:56so you can afford to do that for a very long time.

0:18:58So yeah, they're gonna keep spending money

0:19:00and we're gonna keep talking about this in general

0:19:03and about Apple's strategy in particular here,

0:19:06but they keep making deals and they are gonna,

0:19:10it's a real thing.

0:19:11This is gonna be a real thing competing with Netflix

0:19:14and Amazon and Disney and Hulu and anything else

0:19:19that is out there.

0:19:20Apple is gonna be an HBO and all of that.

0:19:24Apple's gonna be in the fray.

0:19:25This is all still a little theoretical now,

0:19:29but it's gonna happen and we're gonna be,

0:19:32they're gonna be Apple TV shows.

0:19:34It's already in the works.

0:19:35And so next year, I had that moment where 2019

0:19:38seems so far away and then you realize

0:19:40it's not that far away.

0:19:41When I finished the season finale of Counterpart last night,

0:19:44they ran a trailer that said season two, 2019.

0:19:47I thought, oh God, 2019, oh, that's just next year, okay.

0:19:51- I maintain like in thinking about this,

0:19:53I'm really pleased we started doing this regular segment

0:19:55because by the time this service comes around,

0:19:58I'm gonna know so much about the way this business works

0:20:00that like I'm gonna feel confident in talking about it.

0:20:02You know?

0:20:03- There's something to be said for the fact

0:20:05that by getting on this early,

0:20:07and we have heard from a few people who are like,

0:20:08oh, I'm not as interested in that stuff.

0:20:09- I get why people don't like it.

0:20:11I mean, I understand.

0:20:11- I think it's fascinating because it's a way

0:20:14that technology changes are leading to massive changes

0:20:17in this whole other industry

0:20:18that most of us are consumers of in one way or another.

0:20:21But Apple's presence in it, I think,

0:20:23makes it even more a fit for the charter of this podcast

0:20:27because we don't want to not pay attention to it,

0:20:30and then Apple announces a service,

0:20:32and we suddenly look up and go,

0:20:33oh, what's this service about?

0:20:34Like, we're talking about it from the very beginning

0:20:37and trying to get a handle on what they're doing

0:20:39and how they're doing it.

0:20:40So I'm excited to see it,

0:20:42and I'm excited to see the shows,

0:20:43and I'm fascinated to see how they roll it out.

0:20:45And will they, how do you communicate a trailer of content

0:20:48for a service that you haven't announced?

0:20:50And would they announce it six months in advance?

0:20:52Or would they just say,

0:20:53well, we've got something coming next year

0:20:55that we're not gonna talk about,

0:20:56but here's a trailer of whatever it is.

0:20:59I don't even know how they communicate this stuff.

0:21:01So that's gonna be fun to watch.

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0:22:31So the education event was a week ago.

0:22:34Yep.

0:22:35And there's been a lot of discussion and thought that's come out since and I think it's good

0:22:40that maybe we should touch on some of these things. I've got a couple of quotes that I

0:22:44want to read and we can talk about some thoughts from some observers and I know there's some

0:22:48stuff that you want to fill in as well having had some time to think about and discuss this

0:22:52in a little bit more detail.

0:22:54So first off, I want to read a couple of quotes

0:22:57from Bradley Chambers, who was,

0:22:58he's written some pieces for 9to5Mac.

0:23:01Bradley, if you don't know Bradley,

0:23:02has long managed large, huge deployments

0:23:04for Apple devices in education.

0:23:06So he knows what he's talking about.

0:23:07And he actually has a regular column at 9to5Mac now,

0:23:10which started a few weeks ago,

0:23:11which is kind of the perfect time for him and for them.

0:23:14So that was like, that was a good coup.

0:23:16Bradley compared the 2018 event to the 2012 event.

0:23:20That's what he was looking at in one of his articles,

0:23:22because that 2012 event was the education event

0:23:24that we mentioned where they introduced the textbooks.

0:23:27And he kind of said that really,

0:23:29if you look at that 2012 event,

0:23:31everything that was announced hasn't really gone anywhere.

0:23:34Like all the textbook stuff, it didn't make a big impact.

0:23:38And so this is what he said,

0:23:39"As I re-watched a 2012 keynote and pondered a 2018 keynote,

0:23:43I realized that Apple is yet again trying to craft a future

0:23:45for education that I am not sure fits with reality."

0:23:50So Bradley cites some issues being device prices,

0:23:53the timelines of having to implement new features

0:23:56and kind of when Apple are introducing them,

0:23:58and that potentially they're focusing on the wrong places.

0:24:00And he talks about the fact that Google targets

0:24:03IT departments with their features, not educators,

0:24:06because that's where it's deployed.

0:24:08And this is why Google are making headway.

0:24:10And he says, "Google is touting ease of management

0:24:12and deployment.

0:24:13Apple is touting new apps with Apple Pencil support."

0:24:16I really liked this because it's showing

0:24:18some of the practicalities that go into these decisions

0:24:21when Apple seems to be way more focused

0:24:24on trying to woo people

0:24:25and Google is maybe a little bit more down in the trenches

0:24:28and showing IT departments why their stuff's easy to deploy.

0:24:31- Yeah, it's the whole thing here, I mean, look,

0:24:36if you're Apple, you've got to go with what you've got.

0:24:38You literally can't sell--

0:24:40- Yeah, and they don't have the IT management stuff.

0:24:42They don't have that down.

0:24:43- You can't sell what you don't have.

0:24:44Also, I would argue this is so familiar

0:24:46and I think I said this last week,

0:24:47But I mean, this is so familiar 'cause it's, you know,

0:24:50when people are talking about this education market,

0:24:52I hear a lot of market share arguments,

0:24:54which again, Apple losing share

0:24:56and Google gaining share is important,

0:24:58but like Apple's goal is not purely market share.

0:25:02So that's part of it.

0:25:03And also I hear things that remind me of the old days

0:25:05of the Mac versus PC in businesses,

0:25:08where it comes down to who's got a better story

0:25:11for the IT managers.

0:25:13And back in those days, the answer was always,

0:25:15Microsoft owns the minds of the IT managers.

0:25:19Apple basically is trying to own the minds of the,

0:25:23in those cases, it was like the workers and the executives

0:25:26so that they say, well, yeah, I know it's easier

0:25:29if you have Windows PCs, but we want Macs.

0:25:32And here, Apple is trying to communicate to teachers

0:25:35and talk about how great their products are for students

0:25:38and how much students like them too.

0:25:40And they're not as strong to the IT people.

0:25:44And so this is a really familiar game in a lot of ways,

0:25:48where Apple has to lean on the stuff

0:25:50that it feels that it's stronger at

0:25:52and make an argument that basically is like,

0:25:55yeah, I know your tech administrator at your school

0:25:59would rather just deploy a bunch of Chromebooks,

0:26:03but look how much teachers and students love what we do.

0:26:07You should probably authorize them to buy this

0:26:10and tell your guy not to buy those Chromebooks.

0:26:12And that's just, I mean, I think that's the game

0:26:15they have to play, 'cause that's,

0:26:17those are the cards they've got.

0:26:18So they need to go that direction.

0:26:22That's where their strength is.

0:26:23They are trying to get better

0:26:25in terms of the services stuff.

0:26:26They're never gonna be as good as Google at it,

0:26:28but they could be better.

0:26:30I've actually heard a bunch of people say that,

0:26:32like device management stuff,

0:26:34that Apple should like buy Jamf,

0:26:36because if like you need management stuff like Jamf

0:26:40in order to get the iPad management to be good enough.

0:26:44And so maybe, you know, maybe Apple should acquire there

0:26:48or they should improve their own stuff,

0:26:49but they're never gonna probably match Google

0:26:51and Microsoft at that game,

0:26:53but they've got this other game that they're pretty good at.

0:26:55So that's sort of the game they're playing.

0:26:57And, you know, it's a fascinating thing

0:27:02to see this, such a similar story playing out

0:27:06that played out involving Apple, you know,

0:27:09not too many years ago with a completely different product set in a different market.

0:27:15And then we have Carol Anna Milanese who is a frequent guest on Jason's show Download

0:27:20on Relay FM. She was writing for Tech Pinions. This is a longer quote so give me a moment.

0:27:26"I know many will evaluate Apple's opportunity only by considering the price of the new iPad,

0:27:31which is of course high when compared to most Chromebooks and especially once you add the

0:27:35case on the pencil or crayon. But a way I think about it is, with the iPad you get more

0:27:40than a computing device, you get a camera, a video camera, musical instruments and now

0:27:44a drawing board and support for AR. AR support is particularly interesting as it would allow

0:27:49schools to experiment with more immersive teaching without having to invest in a separate

0:27:54headset as is the case with VR and mixed reality. In this way justifying the price is much easier,

0:27:59if you're investing in an iPad to continue focus on traditional work of text charts and

0:28:04slides, you would be better served by a lower price device with a good productivity suite.

0:28:09So this makes sense to me, right? But the thing is, I feel like when I look at stuff

0:28:15like this, it's like perpetuating this idealistic view of teaching, which I don't know if it

0:28:19exists, right?

0:28:21Yeah, I don't either, and it definitely is, that's the Apple take on it. This is sort

0:28:28of Apple, how Apple is selling this and it makes sense. I get what Apple is trying to

0:28:34do here, right? And I like what it's trying to do, which is saying, "Look, with Apple,

0:28:38you're making an investment on doing more with technology and with your students and

0:28:42having them do AR and making videos and making music and all sorts of other things that Apple

0:28:51has advantages over the competition in." I get that. I get the argument from the other

0:28:57side as well that the price is pretty dramatically different and that in the end, teachers just

0:29:05need to do and schools just need to do this stuff that they are required to do. And it's

0:29:10not the wizzy AR stuff. It's the more prosaic testing and turning in reports and things

0:29:20like that. At the same time, I gotta say, I don't like the idea that I think I see from

0:29:29some people who argue essentially that what a computer is is a spreadsheet and a word

0:29:37processor and a slide maker. Like, Google Docs has got those, right? Google Apps has

0:29:42those features. And there are people who seem to think that that's what technology is, that's

0:29:50what students are need most. And I think I just I get really depressed by that because

0:29:58that that seems to me again to be a version of that same argument which is the Microsoft

0:30:03argument from the old days which is what is computing but office. It's like it's a lot

0:30:09more than that and I know that Chromebooks do more than this, that you can do a lot more

0:30:14with Chromebooks than just use Google Apps, but the argument for them seems to be a lot

0:30:21about that. Like, you gotta use the keyboard for this test and you gotta do this thing,

0:30:25and you know, I wanna side with the group that's saying, "You know, a crappy laptop

0:30:33with a keyboard assumed to be the default is maybe going to change and maybe we should

0:30:40be agents of change and say that you don't always need a crappy laptop with a keyboard,

0:30:45that maybe having a tablet is better and will make everybody have more stuff that they can

0:30:49do and cool stuff and it will change the world instead of and being kind of pro the idea

0:30:55that things are going to change instead of being the agent of the status quo. And agent

0:31:01that the status quo is a very sensible position to take. And there are a lot of reasons why

0:31:06the status quo remains. I always have that little red flag that goes up. It's like, I

0:31:11mean, we had this conversation on download, I think last week, which was, are people really

0:31:15going to need physical keyboards? And one of my panelists said, people will always need

0:31:19physical keyboards. And the other panelist who is quite a bit younger said, maybe not.

0:31:25And I think that's, again, I'm a physical keyboard guy. I would have a hard time adapting,

0:31:29I did try to put my mind in the thought of what would a really good touchscreen keyboard

0:31:35device be, because you could make it really good. But I am not somebody who's inclined

0:31:40to bet on the status quo and say, "Well, yes, there will always be physical keyboards."

0:31:46Because, I don't know, change is a really powerful thing. And so this is my long way

0:31:51of saying that I totally get the argument for the sensibility of Chromebooks, but what

0:31:57What Apple's tapping into is this other thing, which is, can't we strive to do more? Can't

0:32:03we try to be different? Can't we try to do new and interesting things? And the only way

0:32:07new and interesting things are going to happen in any area, but in this particular area,

0:32:12is if you try to do things differently instead of just doing things the same old way. And

0:32:19again, I will say, this plays into Apple's strengths. That's why Apple's making this

0:32:24argument. But this is a traditional strength of Apple. This is not a new argument they're

0:32:27making, that they're just making now because it's all they've got. This has sort of always

0:32:31been the Apple argument for stuff and it continues to be.

0:32:37So I've been thinking about this too, right? And I know we've been talking about it. And

0:32:42a lot of this stuff comes down to price as well. Like there is this idealistic view,

0:32:47which of course, like I'm sure that there are so many educators that really want the

0:32:51idealistic view and that these tools will really help them to, you know, to kind of

0:32:57expand their curriculum a little bit. You've got to learn the same stuff, but there might

0:33:00be some cool ways you can do it. And I think that's kind of what Apple are hoping that

0:33:04people will do. But the other part, the other big stumbling block is price. And I know that

0:33:10we were kind of chatting about some ways that potentially this stuff can be made easier.

0:33:14Yeah, I mean there's two things here. First, just on bare price, I think it's fair to say

0:33:20that unless you're a technology buyer at a school, you probably don't know the details

0:33:23of this. My understanding is that although Apple stuff is more expensive than the Google

0:33:28Chromebook solution, they're not, you can't just take their list price and multiply it.

0:33:33It's different than that because there are different prices and there are leases. And

0:33:38so one of Apple's arguments that Apple makes is, for example, that most iPads, and this

0:33:45is true at my son's school, most iPads are leased, they're not purchased by the school

0:33:49they're leased for, you know, three, four years, and then they're turned back in,

0:33:54and there's residual value there. They get credit for the value that remains on those iPads,

0:34:01and then they get resold or whatever somewhere else, resold, released. And the argument is that

0:34:09the value retained by Chromebooks after three years out in the field is a lot less. And again,

0:34:16I don't have corroboration here, but my understanding just from, you know, talking to people theoretically

0:34:23about this, and certainly this is Apple's argument, and I've talked to people at Apple

0:34:26who have made this argument, is, you know, basically Chromebooks are, they're $199, $150

0:34:34laptops. They're kind of cheaply constructed in order for them to be that, and there's

0:34:38less residual value, or no residual value when those things get turned in because they're

0:34:42beat up. Now, that's the sales pitch from Apple, is that the leases change the finances

0:34:50to a certain degree. Apple's still more expensive, but at the mat, it's closer than you might

0:34:55think. And that you maybe don't buy a pencil for everybody, but the pencils stay in one

0:34:59class. There are ways to mitigate that. Now they have the crayon as an option that cuts

0:35:04that price. They are building this case. I got a chance to handle that forthcoming Logitech

0:35:11iPad case. The rugged. Yeah it's hilarious I mean it makes it feel like a laptop.

0:35:17It's a detachable keyboard so you can use it like a tablet but it is

0:35:22putting that sleek iPad in a blocky box but it means that it's rugged and it

0:35:29turns it into a laptop essentially which is pretty funny. It adds a lot

0:35:35like I would I'm not somebody who likes a big case on my iPad anyway because I

0:35:39feel like it adds so much weight to a product that one of the great things about it is it's

0:35:43so small. Anyway, so there's the lease argument. I think there's the larger argument here,

0:35:48right, which is something that I've heard people make, but we get so focused on the

0:35:53technology and it's like this event laid down the argument to us, which was Chromebooks

0:35:57or iPads. It's like, all right, we can have that conversation. We just had that conversation.

0:36:01I do think it's fair to say there's another conversation that we should probably not be

0:36:06the ones to have. But there is a conversation to be had about technology in schools, because

0:36:14I think you could make a strong argument that – and actually, I remember Casey Liss made

0:36:21this argument briefly, at least, on ATP last week, which is, you could make the argument

0:36:26that the money that schools spend on technology purchases should probably go to paying teachers

0:36:34better, getting more materials in schools. Like, there's an argument to be made that

0:36:38technology is not a solution, that tech companies are constantly trying to sell into education

0:36:44and saying that it's the solution and it's going to make your school better and it's

0:36:48going to make your students smarter and all of these things. And this has been going on

0:36:52for 30 years, maybe even 40 years now. And it's unclear, my understanding is, it's unclear

0:36:59if that's really true. There are very specific places where computers in schools make sense.

0:37:03need to teach people how to be a computer programmer. It makes total sense. Some multimedia

0:37:08stuff totally makes sense. But a one-to-one program, you know, there is an argument, and

0:37:13I'm not saying it's right, but there is an argument to say that the money that goes into

0:37:17buying everybody an iPad would be better spent somewhere else in improving the quality of

0:37:21the education. And I wanted to at least voice that because I think it's a fair question

0:37:28And Google and Apple are not going to have that, are not going to talk about that question

0:37:34because their goal here is not to change the world, it's to sell products.

0:37:41That's the goal.

0:37:42That's the goal here.

0:37:43I am definitely at the camp that I personally don't believe that like every class requires

0:37:56keyboards and computers.

0:37:58I think that it's perfectly fine for kids to

0:38:01handwrite essays.

0:38:02I don't think that it is required that there has

0:38:06to be a keyboard in like every single

0:38:09lesson for all of the stuff to be typed.

0:38:11I just don't know if that's required.

0:38:12I mean, I know I didn't learn that way.

0:38:14And, you know, and like I know that the majority

0:38:16of people that have ever been to school in human

0:38:18history have not done that.

0:38:20So I don't know if it is a requirement

0:38:23as much as it is a nice to have in some

0:38:26some areas, required in some areas, and is being heavily pushed by these companies because

0:38:31they want to make sure that they're the company that people use forever.

0:38:34Yeah, which I actually, and I think I might have said this last week, but I dispute that

0:38:40premise too. There is this view of like, well, you know, you get them when they're young

0:38:43and you own them forever. But that was a premise that came up when people didn't have computers

0:38:48at home. And they would go to school and they would get that Apple II or a PC or a Mac.

0:38:56and you'd be like, oh yes, and now they're going to be loyal to us forever.

0:39:00First off, I know lots of people whose first computer was an Apple computer in

0:39:04school and then they were a PC person after that, so I'm not sure that actually

0:39:08worked, but that was part of the narrative anyway. And second, like today

0:39:11people have technology throughout their homes. I'm not convinced that using a

0:39:15Chromebook in schools means that you're gonna be tied to Google forever. I just, I

0:39:18I don't, I question the entire premise of that too. But I think you're right, I mean

0:39:23you're making an argument that is sort of "we've always done it this way, so why

0:39:27should it be any different?" which is not my favorite argument to be made, but I get

0:39:30what you're saying.

0:39:31No, no, I completely understand why there are things we should advance. I just don't

0:39:37know if it's needed for everything, right? I don't know if an iPad is needed in every

0:39:41single class a student takes.

0:39:43Well, so the argument for the one-to-one program, whatever the technology is, is that at that

0:39:49point teachers are no longer thinking, "Well, we're going to get the technology for one

0:39:54class or one week or whatever, and we'll use it to do a unit that uses the technology."

0:39:59Instead, the idea is once you know that everybody's got one, you can just have it be – it's

0:40:04just a tool. It's just like a backpack or a pencil. We assume everybody brings a pencil

0:40:09to class and paper to class, a notebook or whatever, and therefore I can ask you to put

0:40:14something in your notebook and you can do it because you've got a pencil or a pen

0:40:17and you've got paper. So the idea with the one-to-one program is similar. It's

0:40:21the idea that you can just put everything in Google Classroom, for

0:40:24example, which my sons, even though they use iPads, that's what they do, that

0:40:28the grade tracking is there, the assignment tracking is there, things get

0:40:31turned in there. Apps, they know what the apps are that are on the systems so that

0:40:35they can say, "Let's all open this app and do this thing," and there's advantages to

0:40:40doing that because it's just assumed that it's there. So you use it when it's

0:40:43useful rather than trying to construct sort of like a technology now we're

0:40:48going to get the cart in here and do computer things and instead just say

0:40:51look the computer is just a tool as part of the education process and and again I

0:40:55don't have studies or anything to tell you whether that's good or bad but

0:40:59that's the idea and I like the idea of that by the way as an aside I find it

0:41:05funny that the very week that Apple had its education event and we started

0:41:08talking about this stuff the something went wrong in the management system that

0:41:13my son's middle school uses and a lot of iPads had like their apps and documents

0:41:19deleted and my son was talking to one of his friends about it like yeah I lost

0:41:23this thing and I lost this thing and he's oh yeah a lot of people lost that

0:41:26thing so that's that's the other the other side of this is what happens when

0:41:32something goes wrong in the school management system and stuff gets deleted

0:41:36off of kids kids devices the dog is in the school and it's eating everybody's

0:41:41homework.

0:41:42I don't know.

0:41:43All right, let's leave it there on education for today.

0:41:46I'm sure more stuff will continue to come up.

0:41:49I'm not a Luddite.

0:41:50I just want to make that clear.

0:41:52It's just my case.

0:41:54I just get a little bit…

0:41:55Like I question the motives.

0:41:56What's wrong with people using pens, Myke?

0:41:58Why would you be a proponent of pens?

0:42:01I don't like the idea of future generations growing up without having strong abilities

0:42:05in reading and writing.

0:42:08With pens and paper, right?

0:42:10being on screens, as much as of course I spend my entire time on them now, I think having

0:42:16the base skills of just being able to express yourself in that way are important. So it

0:42:20just makes me a little bit skittish.

0:42:22I don't know, it sounds like you're in the pocket protector of Big Pen.

0:42:26Oh, nice. Very good. Very, very good. Very good. And I'm just going to leave it there.

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0:44:34So there were a heck of a lot of software updates that came out towards the tail end of last week

0:44:40for basically all of Apple's major platforms. None of them were whiz-bang wonderfulness,

0:44:47so we're going to kind of I guess round up all of the little tidbits that we found interesting

0:44:52or important that came from the releases. I think the biggest was 11.3. It has the iPhone battery

0:44:58settings screen in it, which is hilarious to me because that feels like a really long

0:45:04time ago that we were talking about that now.

0:45:06And here it is.

0:45:07Like that was back before Christmas, right?

0:45:10That was back before the holidays.

0:45:13And here we are.

0:45:14It's out in 11.3 now, like some four months later, basically.

0:45:19The screen is, I find it honestly, a little bit incomprehensible.

0:45:25I don't fully understand, like it feels like things should be buttons but they're not buttons,

0:45:30it's a strange little screen. It is a baker of course.

0:45:32You can see why Apple didn't want to show this to people.

0:45:35Yes. You know, obviously my results are as I would expect, my phone is at 100% battery

0:45:42health which I would expect because it's still new, right? It was interesting, Stephen Hackett

0:45:49saw that his wife's iPhone SE was at 90% battery which he bought when it debuted in 2016. So

0:45:55So that was quite surprising to see that the battery still counted to be that good.

0:46:00I haven't seen anybody reporting lower percentage batteries anywhere, but it's there now.

0:46:05The screen is there.

0:46:06It's something you can keep checking in on if you want to.

0:46:09I don't expect to ever look at that screen like ever again, I guess, because I now know

0:46:15that even if I kept the phone for a couple of years, it would probably be in pretty good

0:46:18condition.

0:46:19But it's there if you want it.

0:46:21I genuinely think, honestly, it's probably just going to confuse people more than anything

0:46:24else, but Apple didn't need to add it because, you know, to reiterate all the conversations

0:46:28from December of 2017, they badly communicated it to people.

0:46:33And I think it's one of those things where they would rather not have a conversation

0:46:36and they would rather have not people obsess over it, but some people are going to obsess

0:46:39over it. Some people are going to wonder, they're going to have a friend who says, "Well,

0:46:43I don't know, did you check the battery? That battery, Apple's got problems with batteries,"

0:46:46or whatever, and they're like, "Oh, is there a battery setting? I'll go check it. Oh, it's

0:46:49I'm fine. I'll it's that's not it. I'll move along or whatever

0:46:53this is I

0:46:56I will say I talked to somebody who works in Apple retail who told me that

0:47:00that the battery thing has been a huge drain on Apple retail because

0:47:05You know everybody said bring in your phones and and then they get really angry when they're there

0:47:11You know

0:47:11They've got people doing battery swaps all the time

0:47:14like at high volume, as high volume as they possibly can,

0:47:17and still people come in and they wait in line at the,

0:47:19they drive to an Apple store,

0:47:20which can be far for some people,

0:47:22and they wait in line and then they're told,

0:47:25no, you actually need to come back in two weeks

0:47:29and do this again,

0:47:30'cause we can't take care of this right now.

0:47:31And that makes them angry.

0:47:32And if you look at Yelp reviews for Apple stories,

0:47:34you'll see those angry people in the Yelp reviews.

0:47:36And it's one of those things that I think Apple

0:47:39made the right decision on a large scale

0:47:41in terms of making that controversy go away,

0:47:45and it totally did.

0:47:47Like by saying, "No, no, we'll fix it, it's fine.

0:47:49Just bring it in."

0:47:52They like, the media story ended.

0:47:54But my understanding is there is this like follow-on

0:47:57corrosive effect to the story,

0:47:58which is that at retail now,

0:48:02you're getting pileups of people with batteries.

0:48:04And that is a problem that makes people angry at Apple

0:48:11on a personal close basis

0:48:14instead of the kind of like global media firestorm,

0:48:16but it's still an issue for them.

0:48:18The advantage of something like this, this information is,

0:48:21it does potentially let a user,

0:48:23a friend of the person who has the phone

0:48:25or somebody at the Apple store,

0:48:26be able to point at it and say,

0:48:28"No, you're actually fine,"

0:48:30and have them leave or not come in.

0:48:32And that is helpful,

0:48:35even though it's more complexity and it's weird

0:48:38and Apple would rather not communicate this stuff.

0:48:41I like that it's there just because it's another thing

0:48:44that people could cite.

0:48:46But I definitely get the sense that Apple retail

0:48:48is having a really hard time,

0:48:50keeping in mind too that after the holidays,

0:48:52which is when this all went on,

0:48:54after the holidays, Apple retail traditionally cuts back

0:48:57on staff hours because it's out of the holiday period.

0:49:01So now they're down staff and dealing with a massive influx

0:49:05of people who want their batteries checked or replaced.

0:49:08So it's, yeah, yeah.

0:49:10So anyway, I think it's tough times

0:49:12in Apple retail land right now.

0:49:14So if this provides a little more clarity or cushion

0:49:18or something for people, then that's good.

0:49:21That's a good start.

0:49:23- 11.3 also included ARKit 1.5,

0:49:26which has a bunch of advantages

0:49:28like being able to detect vertical surfaces.

0:49:30Previously, it was on the horizontal surfaces.

0:49:32So it can detect like tables and floors, but not walls.

0:49:35So that's great to have that.

0:49:36ARKit can now map irregularly shaped objects.

0:49:40So if you've got like a, I don't know, a pointy wall or something, who knows?

0:49:4350% greater resolution and the ability to use autofocus.

0:49:47So apparently from reading around and I read this on Mac stories,

0:49:51these were the things that developers were asking for.

0:49:55And Apple have added them really quickly.

0:49:58Like the amount of stuff that they've actually added in,

0:50:01the advancements that they've taken for ARKit 1.5,

0:50:05these were the things that people were expecting Apple to debut at WWDC

0:50:08this year.

0:50:09Right. And ship in the fall at iOS 12.

0:50:11But they've just put it out now. So apparently this should make ARKit apps a lot,

0:50:16lot better. Um,

0:50:17I'm excited about the 50% greater resolution and autofocus.

0:50:21So I'm expecting this is going to help the images look better and it work in the

0:50:25dark, like it work in not great lighting better. So I'm,

0:50:28I'm pretty excited about that.

0:50:29So I'm going to keep my eye on this like to kind of,

0:50:32to see apps that I use and have installed

0:50:34to see if they're gonna like mention

0:50:36that they got 1.5 ARKit added and see what that does.

0:50:40- I think it's also an interesting thing for,

0:50:43we talk a lot about Apple's cycle with software

0:50:46and things that they say they may be,

0:50:48or reports are they may be slowing down on.

0:50:51When we look at what's in this 11.3, ARKit is a good example.

0:50:55Like maybe Apple also has decided

0:50:58they're not going to hold some major stuff until the next fall release if they don't have to.

0:51:06And I actually am really encouraged by that. I'm very excited by the fact that ARKit 1.5

0:51:11shipped now because, yeah, I know it's a follow-on to that first ARKit release and that there were

0:51:18probably lots of things that they didn't have ready or that they really wanted to knock down

0:51:23quickly and get it out there so that they could press their lead on it. That's all true,

0:51:26But still, the fact that it's out now and not in six months is a big deal.

0:51:33That's a big deal.

0:51:34There are now music videos in the music app, and Apple debuted a lot of music videos, I

0:51:40think some kind of exclusive music videos too.

0:51:44Really this feels like very basic video support.

0:51:47It's kind of strange.

0:51:48You can't airplay the videos.

0:51:49The video player is kind of weird.

0:51:51It doesn't do full screen in the way you'd expect.

0:51:53It's very strange.

0:51:55basically is in the same way that all of the TV shows inside of

0:51:59Apple music feel strange so do the music videos, but they have them there

0:52:03They have playlists and you can cue playlists up. You can take all the advantage of the features in Apple music

0:52:07but with music videos now, too

0:52:09New animoji there is a lion a dragon a bear and a skull

0:52:13Great additions. They're fun. I

0:52:16Demoed an emoji to my five-year-old nephew yesterday and he was losing his mind. So that was really fun to watch

0:52:25But yeah, I mean an emoji for me like I use it I use them for stickers every now and then I don't record videos

0:52:31I'm still just waiting for like an actual emoji face then I would use it all the time

0:52:36Just let me make my own emoji faces

0:52:38Like let me let my the shocked emoji face instead of there being like a lion

0:52:43I mean, I'm still hoping that though at that some point

0:52:45And then the last I think the last big thing in in in 11-3 is the health records thing

0:52:52So your personal health records can be stored in the health app if you're a patient of a partnering facility

0:52:58Which seems like a really cool thing

0:53:00But it's one of those things that I know I'm never gonna get because they're probably never gonna expand

0:53:04Outside of the US and even if they do you have to be like a very specific hospital

0:53:09Right, like of the partner hospitals are gonna do it blah blah blah blah, but it's cool if you've got it available to you. I

0:53:15Think more interesting for me Jason than what's included in 11.3 is what isn't

0:53:21So, things that were in the beta process that have been removed.

0:53:27Airplay 2 and iMessages in the cloud.

0:53:30So, these were both things that were in the beta processes, things that were both announced

0:53:35at WWDC 2017 and they're still not shipping.

0:53:41So let's assume now that these won't come in 11.3.1, right?

0:53:49would maybe come in 11.4 which we know will exist because they spoke about it last week

0:53:54and this is slated for a June release which is going to bring a lot of the support for

0:53:58the education some of the education stuff so we know that 11.4 is coming so let's assume

0:54:04that Airplay 2 messages in the cloud are in 11.4 if they are this is a year after the

0:54:09features were announced and four months after the HomePod shipped and the HomePod was the

0:54:15poster child for AirPlay 2. But this is even assuming that they will ship it at 11.4. It

0:54:20is possible that these might be pushed to 12. That is wild.

0:54:25I think if they can't get them in 11.4, that's what will happen next, right? I think it would

0:54:30be amazing if they got them in an 11.4 release. And like on stage while they're announcing

0:54:35iOS 12 mentioned that AirPlay 2 and messages in the cloud is also in an iOS 11 update that's

0:54:42available, like they'll get applause for that or something, but it would have been on the

0:54:45same stage where they announced those features a year before. It's pretty wild. But this

0:54:51is our conversation about this. Like, they pulled stuff forward and then they also pushed

0:54:54stuff back. And so you get ARKit 1.5, but you also get no AirPlay 2. And, you know,

0:55:03we've talked about it before. Apple has stuff that's not ready, and they've decided not

0:55:09to ship it, and on one level that's really good, especially with messages in the cloud

0:55:12that you kind of don't want to mess that up. But it is interesting that 10 months later

0:55:17from when they announced it, it's still not shipping. It's still not ready. Even though

0:55:21it was in the betas, they put it in the betas, they wanted to test it out, that was great.

0:55:24It wasn't good enough to ship it, so they pulled it back out, and presumably there'll

0:55:28be another iOS beta shortly that will probably have it back in.

0:55:32messages in the cloud I'm kind of like okay right like that I assume is

0:55:41like I assume both of these things are really difficult to do anyway but like

0:55:44I'm like okay well I'll wait until that comes because whatever right like it

0:55:48will come when it comes but AirPlay 2 is like a temp hole feature of a product

0:55:52that now is in my living room like that one seems way weirder to me like that

0:55:58the home pod should have AirPlay 2 in it so like all of my airplane will be

0:56:02better on this thing so I'm not waiting for four seconds every time I press the

0:56:05play button when sending an overcast like podcast to it right an overcast

0:56:10stream like I want at play - I bought a product that should have it in there

0:56:14right you told me you told me when you originally told me about this product

0:56:19that it would include it and then I kind of gave you benefit of the doubt that it

0:56:22didn't and this is this is a really weird one to me like what is stopping

0:56:27them I mean there obviously must be something really tough with it are they

0:56:31can do it? Like is this something they can do? Like is it just...

0:56:34I think it's something they can do but they obviously had trouble with it and are still

0:56:39working on it. It is the mystery of the HomePod, the riddle of the HomePod continues, right?

0:56:45Like why that product exists the way it does and when it existed and when they announced

0:56:49it and when they shipped it and the fact that features are missing even now from it. It's

0:56:53fascinating. Fascinating.

0:56:57WatchOS 4.3 was released, it restored the ability to control your iPhone's music playback.

0:57:03If you read that and you're like, hang on a second, I don't understand, what this did

0:57:07was it reverted a decision from 4 point whatever, 2 I guess, where now you can browse your whole

0:57:15library again, not just what was in the watch music app.

0:57:20That's what it changed.

0:57:21So you can now browse your whole library and choose from anything and control the music

0:57:25playing on your phone not just on your watch and it also added some home pod music controls

0:57:30so you can now like go in with the audio picker thing and you can control the volume levels

0:57:36of your home pod with the digital crown and stuff like that.

0:57:40It added activity to the Siri watch face so now on the Siri watch face you have like a

0:57:44permanent thing there when there's no other cards that shows your rings and it shows the

0:57:49calories you've burned in the day, the amount of minutes of exercise and how many stand

0:57:54hours. Previously on the watch when it had nothing else to display it just said "have

0:57:59a great afternoon" and so that was kind of pointless. I prefer to have this piece of

0:58:04information there even though it's guilting me constantly into the fact that I haven't

0:58:07closed my rings. It added also portrait support for nightstand mode. So nightstand mode is

0:58:13when you if you have your Apple watch charging on the side you get the big clock at night

0:58:20and you can kind of like bump your nightstand and it lights the watch up. This is now available

0:58:25in portrait mode which is probably for air power. I did notice Jason when you put the

0:58:32Apple watch on to charge there's a new charge animation. So all of this stuff is for air

0:58:36power if that ever arrives. That product, who knows where it is, it's out there somewhere.

0:58:43So a lot of this stuff is probably added for that when it will come. The home pod got an

0:58:47update 2.3 gigabytes just bug fixes no idea this is one of those things I've seen people saying like

0:58:52oh I think there's less bass in the home pod I can't like believe any of that stuff because

0:58:58it's all subjective right they haven't said that it's reduced the base so I don't know how you

0:59:04how you test that yeah I saw several people say that they thought that the um that some songs

0:59:10sounded different that they were fixing bugs in what they were doing with their processing of

0:59:16songs, but it's very hard to tell because, you know, how do you do? You get two home

0:59:22pods and you try very hard for one not to be updated, but there's a small window

0:59:28and then it downloads a software update and you can't take it off the internet

0:59:33because it needs to use the internet in order to play the music and it's a

0:59:36challenge is what I'm saying. It's a challenge to to test that out and then

0:59:39you've got a library of songs and how do you do that? It's hard to say, but I

0:59:43have heard people report that they feel like there were songs that were

0:59:45problematic that the processing on the HomePod was weird and that it doesn't sound weird

0:59:52now. So it may be that they are fixing bugs in their audio processing too.

0:59:56But it's so hard to really kind of like categorically say one way or another for that, right?

1:00:03Yeah, especially if Apple doesn't detail it in some way.

1:00:07And Mac OS 10.13.4, so this is High Sierra point four?

1:00:15Is that right?

1:00:16Sure.

1:00:17Yeah.

1:00:18It added external GPU support, which is something we knew about.

1:00:21There are a small range, but a range of products that are available that are supported by the

1:00:26Mac, which is more than just the one that they had originally allowed for people to

1:00:32buy during the testing period.

1:00:34So there are a range of external GPU products that you can buy and they are supported now

1:00:39officially by Mac OS.

1:00:43It cannot be used in boot camp with Windows, right?

1:00:47Which I thought was funny.

1:00:49You can't do that so if you think you're going to be able to use your iMac for super powerful

1:00:52gaming now on Windows, that is not going to happen for you.

1:00:58There was something that I saw that wasn't an addition but something has broken which

1:01:03I find really unfortunate and interesting and it's just yet another example of why development

1:01:11can be tricky. Lots of Mac desktop extension software, so a few different programs, one

1:01:20including Duet Display, have been rendered inoperable by this version of Mac OS due to

1:01:26what the developers of Duet Display are calling critical bugs. They have alerted these critical

1:01:31bugs to Apple for Apple to fix them. This seems like a difficult and risky situation

1:01:37to hope that that's going to occur for you. Yeah, I don't know. So basically something's

1:01:45changed in Mac OS, which is basically rendering apps like Air Display, iDisplay, Duet Display,

1:01:52they don't work. They just don't work. So these are the applications where you can have

1:01:56an iOS device and a Mac and you can basically use your iOS device like it's a secondary

1:02:01screen for your Mac and something in this version of Mac OS has broken those

1:02:06applications so whatever API they were taking advantage of or whatever this is

1:02:12like just another example of why some what was there like some things on on

1:02:18the Mac that you can do because the Mac is open right like you can do this the

1:02:25weird and wonderful stuff is open to be broken and then what do you do?

1:02:30Yeah well I think this is a good example of why if you rely on stuff that is not

1:02:38stock Apple that you don't rush to update to 10.13.4 because you never

1:02:46know something like this might happen and it does happen from time to time so

1:02:49if you've got critical stuff that is that is not stock you know waiting to

1:02:54update until you see an all-clear from people who are using or testing the stuff you use

1:03:00is always a prudent thing. This is a weird one. I'd like to think that this is probably

1:03:05a bug that maybe even is related to the eGPU stuff, that there's something different about

1:03:10display stuff in 1013.4 and they introduced a bug that it's not Apple. I think Apple has

1:03:15no motivation to crush these apps. I think probably it was just they didn't test against

1:03:19these apps and they broke something and with any luck it'll get fixed. The bad

1:03:24news is if that you're in 10.13.4 already and you rely on them you're gonna

1:03:28have to find a way to roll back and even then you're gonna have to wait it out

1:03:31until a 10.13.5 beta or until 10.13.5 drops. I had a funny thing I'm on 10.13.4

1:03:40now and it's very exciting because I was on a beta of 10.13... it might not have

1:03:48even been three, it might've been two.

1:03:50I was on one of those betas and it prevented,

1:03:54I was not able to update to another version after that

1:04:01on my iMac Pro, something weird, I think with the iMac Pro,

1:04:06'cause it's got the weird, you know,

1:04:09it's got the bridge OS and then,

1:04:10and it's got, it's an unusual new system for Apple

1:04:16for how the machine boots and runs.

1:04:20And I was in a boot loop.

1:04:23Every time a new version would download,

1:04:24it'd be like, I'm gonna install this now,

1:04:26getting ready to install.

1:04:27And then it would restart or maybe shut down,

1:04:30but then it would restart or I would turn it on

1:04:32and it would end up booting into an installer window

1:04:34and saying, I couldn't install it.

1:04:36Would you like to save an error log?

1:04:38And then you like try, let's try that again.

1:04:41Nope, I still can't do it.

1:04:43And then if you set your disc as the startup disc,

1:04:46it would just boot back into the same beta

1:04:49that I was in before.

1:04:50So I was running a Mac OS beta for a couple months,

1:04:53at least.

1:04:56- Whoops.

1:04:57- And amazingly, 10.13.4 actually installed.

1:05:02- That's good news.

1:05:03- I left the installer loop behind,

1:05:06which is, and it's one of those things where it was a beta.

1:05:09So like on one level, I'm like, well, it's a beta.

1:05:11I did this to myself.

1:05:12On another level, I'm thinking to myself,

1:05:14"How do I get out of this beta?"

1:05:15And I tried downloading a full installer

1:05:19of the most recent version of High Sierra

1:05:21and putting them in external drive and installing from that

1:05:24and turning off all of the security settings on the iMac

1:05:26so that you can actually boot from an external drive

1:05:29and install.

1:05:29And it was like,

1:05:30"Oh, I need to download some components to add to this."

1:05:33And I thought, "Oh, that's pretty cool

1:05:34that the macOS installer knows that I'm on the iMac Pro

1:05:38and it needs a couple other pieces."

1:05:39So it downloads it and then it restarts.

1:05:41is now I'm installing it and guess what?

1:05:43Then it would reboot and say,

1:05:44oh, I had an installation error and I couldn't install.

1:05:46Sorry, would you like to save a log?

1:05:48And yeah, so that led to lots of concern,

1:05:54but the good news is I am now off of the betas

1:05:58and on 10.13.4 and I guess I just won't use duet display,

1:06:02but at least I'm not on a beta now.

1:06:05- No, I did think to myself,

1:06:08whilst Apple may not have decided to do this,

1:06:11like, you know, it's easy to assume that just something changed and broke it. I wonder if

1:06:16like iOS 12 and like, hey, you can now use your iPad as the secondary display. And like

1:06:21the reason it broke it was because they've been building their own system. Who knows?

1:06:26Like, it'd be kind of funny to me in a very sad, sad way because that's how shell-looking

1:06:31goes.

1:06:32There's a Kickstarter project that has already closed that's out there that and I forget

1:06:36the name of it now.

1:06:37It's by the Astropad people.

1:06:39- Yeah, that's it.

1:06:40And they have a hardware thing that you pop in

1:06:43to many display port or USB-C,

1:06:45and then it transmits that to the Mac.

1:06:49And that has struck me as I've read about it

1:06:52as a safer solution, 'cause they're not hacking,

1:06:55they're not kind of hacking the graphics card,

1:06:57which is what these other ones are doing.

1:06:59- It's tricking the system into thinking

1:07:03that another display is attached.

1:07:05- Yeah, well, basically the little thing you attach

1:07:08is essentially an external display, right?

1:07:11It's a hardware external display and it's saying,

1:07:13here I am, and that external display is then transmitted,

1:07:16the data is transmitted to the iPad.

1:07:19And that, I wonder if that works still.

1:07:22I bet you it does, but I don't know for sure.

1:07:25Because that's still in beta.

1:07:26Haven't shipped it yet.

1:07:27- As is usual when we talk about these things on the show,

1:07:30iOS 11.4 has been seeded to developers.

1:07:33Don't know what's in it yet because--

1:07:35- As we talked.

1:07:36- And not enough people have been able to dig into it

1:07:38at this point to talk about what's in there, but I mean, we are naturally assuming class

1:07:43kit and school work will be in there because that's what we knew was going to be in it.

1:07:47Who knows if Airplay 2 and Messages in the Cloud are in there. You will probably know

1:07:52by the time you're hearing this. If you just go to the links in the show notes, it will

1:07:56say. Hello future people.

1:07:59All right, let's do some #AskUpgrade. But today's AskUpgrade is brought to you by PCALC, the scientific

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1:10:24#AskUpgrade. First we have a question from Jeff. Jeff wants to know, "Do you think

1:10:29that something like the Logitech Crayon could come to an iPhone model in the future?"

1:10:34So I have a couple of thoughts about this. One, I am just waiting for the Logitech Crayon

1:10:38to go on sale generally now because people seem so excited about it. I think at some

1:10:43point there's going to be a product like this which comes out to the masses. We'll

1:10:46have to wait and see. And I mean, I was on the books of predicting that the iPhone 10

1:10:52would have Apple Pencil support.

1:10:55I still think it will happen in the future.

1:10:56Do you?

1:10:57- Yeah, I think it's inevitable that it will happen.

1:11:01The question is, what form will it take?

1:11:06And is Apple, is the crayon a hint

1:11:09that Apple Pencil may change,

1:11:12and how Apple's approach to writing may change?

1:11:15And I don't know, 'cause a crayon uses a different system.

1:11:18It's not Bluetooth, it's a single radio frequency.

1:11:21It doesn't pair, instead it's proximity based.

1:11:23So you can use that crayon on an iPad

1:11:25and then literally just move it over to another iPad

1:11:27and write on it and it totally works,

1:11:29which the Apple Pencil doesn't work like that.

1:11:31- I would love that because I currently have

1:11:33two Apple Pencils, I would like to just have

1:11:35one Apple Pencil.

1:11:36- Right, and so it could be that people are like,

1:11:38oh, well, you know, why does it only work with this one iPad

1:11:41and not all the other iPad Pros?

1:11:43And the answer is because they're using this new technology

1:11:45and it wouldn't shock me if they might be doing that

1:11:50for other devices too down the road.

1:11:52And if they do that, yeah, maybe that's a thing

1:11:54that they could put in an iPhone.

1:11:56It wouldn't surprise me.

1:11:57And they're gonna have, if this iPhone 10 Plus is real,

1:12:01where it's even larger than the iPhone 10,

1:12:04that would be potentially a natural

1:12:06for some sort of optional stylus input.

1:12:11- Yeah, honestly, I would be surprised.

1:12:14I would be really surprised if Apple has this

1:12:17like 700 inch iPhone 10 plus without without pencil because like the rumors

1:12:23are like you know getting up there to seven inches at 6.7 or something like

1:12:27that if I remember off the top of my head it's basically an iPad mini like

1:12:31you're getting real close to the iPad mini it kind of I think it'd be kind of

1:12:36nice worth the wait huh Jason asks this is not used as another Jason not me

1:12:41probably why do people want the bezels on the iPad to go away the bezels serve

1:12:46a better purpose on the iPad than on the iPhone, surely.

1:12:49Jason, when we talk about the bezels going away on an iPad, what do you mean?

1:12:53Well, I mean, I think the top and the bottom, the forehead and the feet, I don't know where

1:13:00the button is, like, I get that you want to hold your iPad by the corners, I get that,

1:13:05but they've already reduced the bezel on the sides, and it doesn't bother me, like, it

1:13:10hasn't affected it at all.

1:13:12And the idea there is you can get more screen

1:13:14in a smaller device,

1:13:17and that either makes the iPad smaller

1:13:19or it makes the screen bigger,

1:13:20and those are both good things.

1:13:21So, you know, I don't expect that the iPad

1:13:25needs to be iPhone 10-like in its lack of bezel,

1:13:30but there's a lot of bezel space left

1:13:33to be slimmed down, I think, in the iPad.

1:13:35- I wanna see the thickness that's on the long sides

1:13:39the whole way around.

1:13:40like really small, right?

1:13:43You know, I wonder if it's like proportionally

1:13:47like the iPhone, I don't know,

1:13:48like I'd have to do some mathematics,

1:13:50probably using Peacap to work out that,

1:13:52but when I hold my iPad in portrait mode,

1:13:56I'm not accidentally touching things,

1:13:59like, you know, the palm rejection is very good still,

1:14:02right, I don't think anyone is expecting

1:14:04or really asking for just this front of the iPad

1:14:08to be only a screen, right?

1:14:09but what we refer to as bezel-less.

1:14:12There is a continuum of no bezels,

1:14:18which goes from zero to the iPad,

1:14:21and it's all referred to as there not being any bezels,

1:14:25but what everybody really means is just very thin, right?

1:14:28And that's all I want, very thin,

1:14:29is what I'm looking for.

1:14:31Virginia asks, "Was there a day

1:14:33"when Apple's education discounts were more aggressive?

1:14:37"Urban legend has it that Apple IIs

1:14:39were basically given away. Do we know if this is the case, Jason?

1:14:42Well, Apple's education discounts were much more aggressive back in the day.

1:14:47I would say that although we think of Apple's products as expensive today

1:14:51in a lot of places, you know, you gotta keep in mind back in the earlier days of

1:14:55computing, in the early days of the Mac,

1:14:57you know, a lot of these Apple computers were multi-thousands of dollars at a

1:15:01time when

1:15:02that would be like even more cost today.

1:15:05- Let me be like 10 grand today or something, right?

1:15:07For like Apple II.

1:15:09- Historically, the prices have come down

1:15:12in terms of real dollars from back in the day.

1:15:15But that meant that also, yes,

1:15:17that with larger prices came larger discounts.

1:15:20So that is true.

1:15:21It used to be that if you knew somebody who was in college

1:15:25and you could get them to buy you a Mac

1:15:27at their college sales outlet,

1:15:31which all colleges had computer sales outlets.

1:15:33I'm not sure if they still do.

1:15:34I think UC Berkeley shut theirs down or moved it into the bookstore and all that.

1:15:38But there used to be like the Scholars Workstation at UC Berkeley, and that's where I bought

1:15:42my PowerBook 160.

1:15:44And you got a good deal.

1:15:45You got a really good deal.

1:15:46Like that was the place to get a computer, an Apple computer if you could, if you knew

1:15:52somebody who was eligible and you had to prove your eligibility and show your student ID

1:15:55and all to be an active student.

1:15:56And you were limited to like buy one computer a year or something so that it wasn't abused.

1:16:00But it was a little bit like knowing somebody who works at Apple and having them buy a computer

1:16:04for you, you get a big discount that way too. So, uh, there's still education discounts

1:16:09like individual student education discounts today, you can get like 10 or 15% off some

1:16:13stuff. Yeah, some stuff, it's still there, it's just not like it was. It's just not like

1:16:18it was. Um, and as for the urban legend, um, I think the source of this is that, um, Apple

1:16:25gave an Apple II to every public school, I believe, in California at one point. Wow.

1:16:32That was their initiative.

1:16:35And that is the source of that legend, and I think it's the source of the narrative about

1:16:39how you catch them early and they're your user for life.

1:16:43But that's the story that Apple gave an Apple II to every school in California.

1:16:51Elijah asks, "Do you think that the Apple Watch will ever be sold as a separate, complete

1:16:57computer without the need for an iPhone?"

1:17:02I feel like that's the eventual goal, right?

1:17:06Like that's the logical end game of the product.

1:17:09- Yeah, I think it's most likely that what it'll be

1:17:11is like an airport where, you know, it'll be independent,

1:17:15but you'll need an app to set it up.

1:17:17- Okay, I wonder what airport you were referring to.

1:17:19It's like if things come in-- - San Francisco International

1:17:21- whenever they need. - Airport.

1:17:23No, like the airport base station, you know,

1:17:25you don't need a Mac for that even,

1:17:27you can use an iOS app for that,

1:17:28you can use an iPad app for that.

1:17:30I wonder if that might be the future of the Apple Watch,

1:17:33that they'll still want you to sign in somewhere.

1:17:36Like, are they gonna really make you put in your Apple ID

1:17:38by finger on the little, or like by emoji

1:17:43on the Apple Watch?

1:17:44So it may be that they make it that you can, you know,

1:17:48hold that Apple Watch near any iOS device

1:17:51or even other devices and, you know,

1:17:55or put in a code or whatever and configure it

1:17:58and then have it be up and running.

1:18:00could be like it would be nice if you didn't need an iPhone to at the very

1:18:05least what they're going to try to do is make it less and less dependent on the

1:18:08iPhone right like I can see I think it's more likely that sooner you'll have an

1:18:12Apple watch that won't go talk to the iPhone for everything like if it's in

1:18:17your home network like it doesn't need to glom onto your iPhone use your iPhone

1:18:22cell connection or whatever it's just it's on the Wi-Fi it's doing its own

1:18:24thing it doesn't need to check back with data on the iPhone which is how it

1:18:28started. So I think we'll get there first because the setup is the

1:18:33trick. I think that there's a lot that goes on in the setup process that you

1:18:37kind of want another device for at this point. But I think beyond that, having it

1:18:41be independent from an iPhone would be nice. If you have two iPhones

1:18:45and one watch, you should be able to go with either one and have it work

1:18:48fine. And you have two watches and one iPhone. Whatever your combinations are, I

1:18:52I think it should be less tied to the iPhone, but I feel like the setup is going to be the

1:18:59last.

1:19:00Remember how long it took for iOS devices to be able to be set up on their own.

1:19:03It actually took quite a while.

1:19:04Yeah, I think of the watch to the iPhone as the iPhone was to the Mac, right?

1:19:09There was a time where you had to set it up and then sync all of your contacts and data

1:19:14and podcasts through those two devices.

1:19:17And then eventually it could use all that data and pull that data on its own from the

1:19:21cloud and then slowly just more and more of it went away to the point that now

1:19:25you can own an iPhone without ever owning a computer. There is no

1:19:32computer needed anymore to have an iPhone and so like I imagine it going

1:19:36that kind of route. I also imagine a future Jason where we don't even need

1:19:42our iPhones because we have our Apple watches and our glasses and those two

1:19:46things talk to each other right and then that's that that's your computer.

1:19:51I don't honestly like I see that as a thing, but I am of the Marco Arment school of don't

1:19:58bet against the smartphone. Like even though that will exist, I still think people will

1:20:03want smartphones as well or like whatever those pocket computers become, which is more

1:20:08than just this floating UI in front of your face. But we'll wait and see. And Brent asked,

1:20:14what stock apps do you use on iOS? So I went through this. I picked out a selection of

1:20:19of applications that I use frequently.

1:20:20Of course, there are many applications that the app will make that I use every now and

1:20:24then, like find my friends or something.

1:20:27But I don't really consider that as like an app that I use a lot.

1:20:30So I use Safari and Mail, whilst Chrome is my browser that I use typically even on iOS,

1:20:38links open in Safari.

1:20:39It's nothing I can do about it.

1:20:41So I use Safari a bunch, and Mail because I have a constant fight with all email applications.

1:20:47I use Messages and I use Apple Music as my music service of choice. I use the Health

1:20:53and Activity apps for work out and stuff and for checking that data. I like the way that

1:20:58it represents that stuff. I use Notes as my notes app. I use Notes for so much stuff.

1:21:05Basically everything unless it's long form text which I typically use Bear for these

1:21:10days. And I use the Files app. I use the Files app as the way to try and look into all of

1:21:15my cloud connected services. I use iCloud and Dropbox mostly so use the files app and

1:21:22the camera. Third party cameras are lovely and never as good as like they're never as

1:21:27accessible and fast and simple as the camera that Apple puts into every phone. So that's

1:21:32my list Jason what about you?

1:21:35Yeah, Safari mail messages, music, reminders, and notes.

1:21:41Do you use the calendar?

1:21:44I don't. I use Fantastic Cal.

1:21:48So, camera, sure. Photos.

1:21:52Do you use notes? Do you use Apple Notes? Or do you use something else?

1:21:55Yeah, I use Apple Notes.

1:21:57I think they're kind of like the standard these days.

1:22:00And then there are other ones that you can or can't use depending on, like,

1:22:03reminders and stuff like that. Not everybody uses that. The podcast app is good, but not

1:22:07everybody uses that, right? Like there are a bunch of these other applications, but I

1:22:11think kind of the list that we have probably similar for most people that listen to this

1:22:16show, I would expect.

1:22:17All right, so that is it for today. Thank you so much for sending in your #AskUpgrade

1:22:22questions to close out the show. Just send out a tweet with the #AskUpgrade and then go

1:22:26into a document for us to pull from. And also if you have a question you want us to start

1:22:31the show with, use the hashtag SnellTalk and that will go into another document so we can

1:22:36open the show and close the show in the fun ways that we do. I want to thank our sponsors

1:22:40again for their support of this episode, Pingdom, Casper and Peacock. Don't forget that we are

1:22:46doing a live show, Relay FM is doing a live show at WWDC. There is still a small amount

1:22:52of tickets available. If you go to autconf.com you can get tickets for our Relay FM live

1:22:58show we'd love to see you there if you're going to be in San Jose for WWDC week. If

1:23:05you want to find our show notes for this week head on over to relay.fm/upgrades/187 you

1:23:12can find Jason online at he's on Twitter @jasonl and he writes at sixcolors.com and Jason produces

1:23:18many many many podcasts at the incomparable.com and at relay.fm you go to relay.fm/shows

1:23:25you can find many shows that we do here. For example, you can listen to Free Agents or

1:23:29Download or Liftoff, which is some shows that Jason produces at Relay FM. I am on Twitter,

1:23:35I am @imike, I M Y K E. I also make many shows at Relay FM. If I was to list them to you

1:23:42now, I would definitely forget one of them. So just, I'm not going to do that. I don't

1:23:48want to break any hearts. So go to relay.fm/shows and you can find many shows there. Pick out

1:23:53There's going to be something else that you like, even if you think you've already subscribed

1:23:58to all of the relay FM shows that you want.

1:24:00I bet there's at least one more in there.

1:24:02We have lots of great stuff.

1:24:04Thanks so much for listening to this week's episode of Upgrade.

1:24:06We'll be back next time.

1:24:08Until then, say goodbye, Jason Snow.

1:24:10Class dismissed.

1:24:11I should have said that last week.

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