0:00:08From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode 153. Today's show is brought to you by Squarespace,
0:00:15Freshbooks and Encapsula. My name is Myke Hurley, I am joined by Mr. Jason Snell. Hello
0:00:20Jason Snell.
0:00:21Hello, as always, although behind the scenes peek behind the curtain recording a little
0:00:26bit different a time and that is mostly because you are recording in a different place. I'm
0:00:30just sitting in my chair in my office at home. Where are you?
0:00:34I am in New York City, Jason, but nobody cares about this because it's time for #SnailTalk.
0:00:40Joel wrote this this week and Joel said, "What was the most exciting baseball game that Jason
0:00:46has ever attended?"
0:00:48Boy, I'm gonna say in terms of the excitement of the event, it is definitely game five of the, wow, you know, of the World Series maybe?
0:01:04I've been to two World Series games, both of which were very exciting, both of which were game five of 2002 and 2014.
0:01:12Both of them won by my team, the San Francisco Giants. I would say the most
0:01:21exciting was probably the 2014 World Series, game five. They won, it was a
0:01:27shutout, a complete game shutout by Madison Bumgarner. That was very exciting. In terms of the
0:01:32most actual, like, excitement during a game ever of a baseball game, I would
0:01:36have to say it was game two of the 2000 Divisional Series with the Giants
0:01:43against the Mets where the single most exciting baseball moment I've ever seen
0:01:48in person happen which is a dramatic bottom of the ninth home run by J.T. Snow
0:01:54off of the Mets closer Armando Benitez. There was only one problem it tied the
0:01:59game it felt like it won the game like it really felt like morally that was it
0:02:05and the game was over, but it actually only tied the game. Giants lost the next inning,
0:02:09and that was it. So, but boy, that moment was amazing. The whole stadium shook, and
0:02:14it was amazing. So I have a few postseason baseball choices from AT&T Park in San Francisco
0:02:19to pick from. Welcome to the talk show. My name is…
0:02:24I know, right? Let's talk about keyboards now. Can we talk about keyboards?
0:02:27Yeah, okay. Baseball keyboards. Because that's, you know, when I'm on the talk show,
0:02:31we try to scare away everybody in the first 30 minutes.
0:02:34it's time to talk about publishing Jason Snell.
0:02:36- You nailed it.
0:02:37(laughing)
0:02:39- That was a Snell Talk submitted by Joel.
0:02:42If you would like to have your question answered
0:02:44at the top of the show, you can send in tweets
0:02:46with the hashtag SnellTalk and that will open our episodes.
0:02:50So I will go back, 'cause my favorite thing,
0:02:53it's my new little catchphrase,
0:02:55there's nobody cares about that.
0:02:56I don't know if anyone's noticed it,
0:02:57but I think it's really funny every single time.
0:03:00But yeah, I am in New York.
0:03:01I'm in New York City, which is part of,
0:03:04well, which began last week.
0:03:06I'm spending the entire month of August in the US
0:03:10in various places.
0:03:11And I'm beginning with this show in New York.
0:03:15And I'm going to a baseball game myself next week,
0:03:18which was why I picked the baseball question.
0:03:21I'm going with a couple of friends
0:03:22to see the New York Mets versus the Miami Marlins.
0:03:26So that's in a week or two, I think.
0:03:28So I wanted to know if you had any tips for me
0:03:31for enjoying the baseball game?
0:03:33It's not gonna probably be like when we went to that baseball game in Memphis.
0:03:38You probably won't get a foul ball.
0:03:40Okay.
0:03:41I would say enjoy the atmosphere and soak in the crowd and if it's a sunny day, you know, enjoy the sun.
0:03:51Have a hot dog.
0:03:53Will they throw hot dogs at me? Is that a thing that happens?
0:03:57No.
0:03:58No? Okay.
0:03:59No.
0:04:00That's a shame.
0:04:00but I can shout to the guy or the girl and be like "hot dog here" or something?
0:04:05Uh, maybe if there's a hot dog person. Okay.
0:04:07I would recommend you just go buy a hot dog at a hot dog stand in the stadium rather than
0:04:12waiting for a vendor to come by. Yeah, but you see, the thing is though,
0:04:15like if I have the ability to say one here please, right? Like it's-
0:04:19Oh, you don't- but yeah, but you don't want like a- you don't want a hot dog that some guy is like
0:04:24kept in his pocket and is now gonna sell to you. Like you don't want like a hot dog out of a sack
0:04:29full of hot dogs that are all... no, don't, no.
0:04:32So here's the thing, I agree with you, that's not the type of hot dog that I want to eat.
0:04:36But like, this is one of those things that like, I'm not sure if American people get
0:04:40this right, about us non-Americans, is we see this stuff on TV and movies right, like
0:04:46the person walking down the stairs and they have the hot dog and you just, they send the
0:04:52hot dog, you know it's like a whole little thing right, and it seems to happen and every
0:04:56time anybody ever goes to a baseball game.
0:04:58what I would suggest, get the hot dog yourself at a stand, but yes, when a vendor comes by
0:05:05with a lemonade or a soda or a beer or a cotton candy or a Peanuts, Peanuts, that's a classic,
0:05:13Peanuts, oh no, it'll kill you. You should buy them anyway and then just give them away.
0:05:18Anyway, something like that, because Peanuts is a classic, right? Peanuts, Peanuts, get
0:05:22your Peanuts here, and then you'll die, so don't do that.
0:05:25so I don't want to get those peanuts there.
0:05:27- That's what you should do.
0:05:28Get something that's not a hot dog from a vendor.
0:05:32That's my advice to you.
0:05:33- All right, so we do have some real follow-up.
0:05:37We spoke last week in Ask Upgrade
0:05:38about having two Dropbox accounts
0:05:41potentially signed in on files in iOS 11
0:05:44and what the possibilities of that be,
0:05:46and we threw about some theories
0:05:48of how we thought that it could maybe be hacked together
0:05:50to be done, but a couple of people wrote in,
0:05:52including Ryan, who said that,
0:05:54This is actually a feature.
0:05:55Like if you have a business account with Dropbox,
0:05:58you can actually use two accounts in the iOS app
0:06:02and switch between them.
0:06:03So you can switch between a personal account
0:06:04and a business account.
0:06:06So again, this doesn't really confirm anything,
0:06:09but maybe it lends some credence to a possibility
0:06:12that this functionality could be maintained
0:06:14within the Files app because Dropbox has made a point
0:06:17of having it in the iOS app for some time.
0:06:20So that is an important information.
0:06:22unclear on exactly how the whole files interaction thing works and whether Dropbox can put two
0:06:30different, you know, will it in this scenario basically have two mount points and is that
0:06:36allowed or do they only have one, you know, file system that they can generate there or
0:06:41not. But there's at least some hope if you have a business account. I think we also heard
0:06:44from somebody who maybe actually works at Dropbox who basically said beyond that there
0:06:49are no, you know, they know of no plans to support this, you know, just having several
0:06:55Dropbox accounts. And some of that makes sense because you can get a free amount of space
0:06:59from Dropbox and I think that they don't want to make it easy to switch because then you
0:07:03could just have a chain of Dropbox accounts each with five gigabytes and move between
0:07:07them and…
0:07:08Yeah, it'd be unlimited, right? If you had it all in a root directory inside of an application.
0:07:12Exactly. Unlimited but inconvenient, right? But they don't want to do that. So unless
0:07:17you're in a situation where you've got a business account and a personal account,
0:07:20that might work, although, you know, that's the real question is how does that interact
0:07:25with files and will that work.
0:07:28So there have been some new emoji proposals and I just wanted to run through some of these
0:07:32real quick because emoji seems to be some part of our beat on this show, at least I
0:07:38think I forced it in over time at least.
0:07:40I saw Jeremy Bird like, what, a little more than a week ago and Jeremy and I were talking
0:07:46about from Emojipedia we were talking about. We were on the new screensavers on
0:07:50twit and we were talking about emoji. It was nice to see Jeremy. Yeah, me and
0:07:54Jeremy have a thing where we cross paths. So he's been in the US for a month, he
0:07:58came home and now we've reversed over. Right. I also said his name totally wrong
0:08:03because it's Berg, right? Berg? Not Burj? Oh, I always call him Burj.
0:08:07I'd like to use his face. Not Berg like iceberg? Ice Burj. I said Burj and then I
0:08:15immediately was worried about it. So we'll see. Ice purge, not an emoji. But I think
0:08:23breaking news for those who've wondered why is the pile of poo so happy is one of the
0:08:30proposals and Jeremy was actually swinging up to Seattle for a meeting about this, for
0:08:37an emoji subcommittee meeting. One of the proposals is indeed a frowning pile of poo.
0:08:43Yep, so this news has come out because there has been a Unicode Consortium meeting where
0:08:49they discuss and look at proposals for new emoji and one of the contenders this time
0:08:55is a frowning pile of poo, which I honestly don't want. I don't really like the poop emoji.
0:09:00I'm just going to say this. I'm not being squeamish or whatever. I just don't understand
0:09:06why people want a poop with a face on it,
0:09:10like so now I don't really want more of them?
0:09:13- It's weird. - It is weird.
0:09:15- It's weird and also the way it's generally drawn,
0:09:18it's just soft serve.
0:09:20It's like, it's chocolate soft serve.
0:09:24It's not even poop.
0:09:26- I'm gonna say though, Jason,
0:09:27there's no other way I would wanna say it.
0:09:29I don't want it represented any other way.
0:09:30- No, I think it should be,
0:09:32did you know, Jeremy pointed this out to me,
0:09:34there used to be flies buzzing around it.
0:09:37And those went away.
0:09:38It's like, I think like if you're gonna have poop,
0:09:40just go have it be real poop.
0:09:42Like if you wanna send poop to somebody, do it.
0:09:45But don't give me this like an anthropomorphic pile
0:09:48of soft serve who might be happy, but might be sad.
0:09:51And we don't, and nobody knows why.
0:09:53Are we gonna have to have all the smileys have an option
0:09:55where they could be poo instead of a yellow circle?
0:09:58Is that gonna happen?
0:10:00- I hope not.
0:10:01(laughing)
0:10:03- You said that like you're just comprehending
0:10:05that maybe that's a serious possibility.
0:10:07- I mean, you know.
0:10:07- Boy, I hope not, that would be bad.
0:10:10- This is like opening the jar.
0:10:11There are some, there are 67 new emoji
0:10:14that have been listed as draft candidates
0:10:16for the 2018 emoji set.
0:10:18And I wanted to just mention a couple
0:10:20that I think might be kind of cool.
0:10:22Bagel and cupcake in food.
0:10:24A test tube, I think a test tube could be a good one.
0:10:27Redheads, and I feel sorry for redheads
0:10:29because there are gonna be, I think in the 2017 set,
0:10:33there's gonna be new hair modifiers
0:10:34and this would indicate that redheads
0:10:36did not make the cut of the original hair modifiers,
0:10:39which I feel sad about considering
0:10:41that there is a lot of a large redhead population
0:10:44in my own family.
0:10:45There is a face with smiling eyes
0:10:47and a party horn and party hat,
0:10:49so basically a party face emoji.
0:10:52And then there is a red face with tongue sticking out
0:10:54with bead of sweat and a blue face
0:10:56with clenched teeth and icicles.
0:10:58I like those two to show hot and cold.
0:11:00So there's some good ones in there.
0:11:02And as you can imagine, there are also a bunch
0:11:05of just like really boring, useless, rubbish ones
0:11:07that I don't even know why they're putting in.
0:11:09But there are lots of people that want lots of things.
0:11:12And this is some of the new emoji that we may see in 2018.
0:11:15So like probably like iOS 12.
0:11:18- iOS 12, that's exactly right.
0:11:20But it's good, you know.
0:11:23There's some good ones in there.
0:11:25There's some new animals that are nice.
0:11:27there's a raccoon and a parrot and a hippo and a llama.
0:11:31You know, if you're in the Andes
0:11:33and you need to say, check out this llama, got it.
0:11:36You're gonna be there, nailed it, yeah.
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0:12:48So over the last few weeks we have both been discussing the potential of a new Apple Watch
0:12:54right?
0:12:55It started in Ask Upgrade two weeks ago.
0:12:56Two weeks ago yeah.
0:12:57Then there was I think a Ming-Chi Kuo story where we were talking about it last week.
0:13:01Now this week we have a Mark Gurman report from Bloomberg.
0:13:04Gurman is saying that Apple is planning to release a new Apple Watch this year which
0:13:10will include a cell radio and he's confirmed that it will be an LTE chip.
0:13:15Because this isn't something we've discussed but something that I've maybe considered
0:13:18is they might just go with 3G first, but it looks like it will be LTE. Intel are said
0:13:24to be the supplier of this new radio, which is different for Apple, but it does make sense
0:13:29considering Apple's currently going through all this brouhaha with Qualcomm, right?
0:13:34So, and I think Intel provides some of the radios on the current iPhones and Qualcomm
0:13:39the others, so Intel definitely wants Apple's business here.
0:13:42Oh, I'm sure Intel want Apple's business.
0:13:46Yeah, and this is like a good thing for everybody in this regard, right?
0:13:50Intel get to push in, Apple get to make Qualcomm feel nervous, right?
0:13:56And then everybody can try and, well, everybody except Qualcomm can try and
0:14:00get some of what they want. So this is a power move as well, I think, from Apple.
0:14:05Do I think that Qualcomm chips will be in the next iPhone? Yes, I do. Do I think that Apple
0:14:12would maybe try and squeeze them out on the Apple Watch as a sign that things might be
0:14:16changing. Yeah. Like, I can't imagine the next iPhone would go all Intel, right? Because
0:14:22it feels like, "Mmm, just in case. Just in case these chips aren't as good. Maybe
0:14:26don't go that route." But we'll see. I mean, we'll see just how bad their situation
0:14:30is come September. And it may, I mean, it may be, it may have
0:14:34nothing to do with that. It may be that Intel, it has a radio here that is superior in some
0:14:40some way that makes Apple choose it at these volumes for an Apple watch that they like
0:14:45what they're getting out of Intel for this. It may not be political at all or it may be.
0:14:51Who knows?
0:14:52Apparently, Apple reportedly in talks with carriers in the US and Europe about getting
0:14:56this kind of ready to be set up. I wonder about this, like how this would work.
0:15:01Yeah, so there are some carriers in the US that are doing this now because there are
0:15:04smart watches, there are Android smart watches that have cellular connections. And of course,
0:15:08One of the things they say about them is that their battery life is generally bad.
0:15:11So that's a question.
0:15:13Is Apple going to be able to do this?
0:15:15Presumably Apple wouldn't do this.
0:15:16This is a little bit like what we've said about some other Apple features that have
0:15:19been rumored.
0:15:20Like if they're going to do this, presumably it means they can get through the day, through
0:15:25a full day with a cellular radio turned on at least when it needs to be turned on.
0:15:31And however, they do energy efficiency there.
0:15:33those Android smartwatches, Android Wear watches, it sounds like what has happened is that carriers
0:15:44have set up plans for these devices just like they've got plans for your iPad, where you're
0:15:51paying a fee to put it on your account. But it also sounds like there's a feature that
0:15:55is now enabled that some of the carriers are offering that, last time I checked I looked
0:16:01this up that you can actually set it up so that it rings that device as well as your
0:16:09phone and the idea there is it's not just like adding a sim to an iPad where you are
0:16:16paying you know I'm paying $10 a month to put my iPad on my cellular plan but it's a
0:16:21little more than that where in a world where you had a cellular Apple watch and you went
0:16:27for a run, and somebody sent you a text to your phone or somebody called you on your
0:16:34iPhone, your watch would ring. Because the way this works is that that other device,
0:16:42that watch, is connected to the network and the network knows that's the same number,
0:16:47essentially, as your phone.
0:16:48Yeah, so it's not like call folding, but like call duplication kind of thing, right?
0:16:54No, it's, it's, and it's exactly what you would want.
0:16:56Yeah, exactly.
0:16:57is I want it to ring my watch and my phone.
0:17:00And this is something that can't happen at the Apple level,
0:17:02it has to happen at the carrier level,
0:17:04but it sounds like that's exactly
0:17:06what has already been built in.
0:17:08So, you know, the carriers know, right,
0:17:11that this is an inevitable direction.
0:17:13There are already some smartwatches out there that do it.
0:17:15And it's some, but there's money to be made.
0:17:18So that would be my guess is that it will be that simple,
0:17:21that you will be able to add it to your, you know,
0:17:23in the US, like to your AT&T account
0:17:25or whatever the other carriers are,
0:17:28and it will, you'll add to your bill,
0:17:31but it will just work.
0:17:33- Yes, 'cause when you're at home, right,
0:17:36and you get a phone call or a text message,
0:17:38your Apple Watch gets it,
0:17:40but it's because it's connected to the iPhone.
0:17:44But the point of this is that it won't be always.
0:17:47- Right, the UI is the same,
0:17:48but the difference would be
0:17:50in where the phone is coming from,
0:17:52because if you're running several miles
0:17:54or riding a bike or whatever
0:17:55without your iPhone and you're several miles away. And to me, that's like the number one
0:17:58reason you have a cellular Apple watch is that you can leave the phone at home and not
0:18:02be out of touch, which is great. Then, you know, the cell network would say, you've got
0:18:08a call and your phone is ringing at home and your phone is ringing on your watch. And if
0:18:12you answer on your watch, your watch picks up and that's where you have the phone call.
0:18:16And that's just perfectly like part of the system. It's perfectly normal.
0:18:21When you hear this, what do you think? Do you think that you would want to leave your
0:18:26phone at home and just have a watch? Like, what scenarios in your life can you imagine
0:18:33wanting to do this?
0:18:34Well, yeah. I mean, I think we went over it a few times, but number one for me is running,
0:18:38because when I'm running, I bring my phone with me and, you know, the phone is in my
0:18:42pocket, weighing down my pocket, and it's not... I would love to not have it with me.
0:18:50would love to not have it with me. If I can have, if I can load music on my watch, which
0:18:57I can, and on my AirPods, like I don't need the phone anymore except that the phone is
0:19:01the thing that contains all the data that is pushing out through, you know, into my
0:19:07AirPods basically. So if I could run without that and have a playlist playing, I mean ideally
0:19:13I'd like a podcast, but the Apple Watch has proven so far to be kind of really terrible
0:19:18at podcasting, but even if just a music playlist, that would be a big deal because it would
0:19:22mean that I wouldn't have to take the phone, because the phone's big. I mean, this is like
0:19:25people strap phones to their arms and things like that, right, when they're running. Like,
0:19:31to get that, to make it optional, I think it would be huge.
0:19:36That is definitely a really good use case, but I'm trying to think of more. You know,
0:19:40like, running is the obvious use case, but what other ones could we assume?
0:19:46for a device that's got a lot of fitness uses, if you've got the ability when you're swimming
0:19:51or running or biking or anything like that to leave the phone at home because you literally
0:19:58don't need it. And I was thinking, even when I take walks, when we walk the dog over to
0:20:02the school by my house in the evenings and all that, I don't need to bring my phone with
0:20:08me because I'm really bringing it so that if I get a message or something like that,
0:20:12yeah, if I'm going to do more intense work in apps on my phone, that's one thing, but
0:20:16when I'm walking the dog, I'm not. When I'm walking the dog, I just want to remain in
0:20:20touch. If my mom sends me a text, I can reply to her right on my watch. I can't do that
0:20:25without my phone right now, but I would be able to do that. I even have Apple Pay on
0:20:29my watch, so I don't need the phone to do Apple Pay. So I feel like there is a bunch
0:20:36of stuff that is in the universe of "I need to bring my phone with me," that we just,
0:20:41by default we do that, that maybe if we had a cellular enabled watch on our wrists, some
0:20:48portion of that would fall out as being like, "I don't really need that." We don't think
0:20:52of that today because there's no option. You're chained to our phones, right? Like, you know,
0:20:58that's how we are. Because this is what I'm saying, right? Like, I totally agree, like
0:21:00the fitness stuff makes so much sense, and I think the answer is simply just we can't
0:21:05conceive of it yet because we don't have it, but like I'm trying to think of like, is there
0:21:09like a threshold that would become in my life where I would then take my phone. You know
0:21:14what I mean? Like if it works well enough that it's like, well maybe if I'm out all
0:21:19day I would take it. But like let's say that me and Adina are going to be together somewhere
0:21:23and we're going to be going out shopping or whatever. Like maybe I just don't need my
0:21:26phone at all because I wouldn't use it, right? But I can still get all the contact that I
0:21:31need because my watch is there.
0:21:33And right now there's no question because right now it's just like, well of course I
0:21:36I bring my phone everywhere.
0:21:37But this would allow you to,
0:21:39in every one of those scenarios,
0:21:40say, do I need to bring this or not?
0:21:42Because just if all I'm doing is the baseline of,
0:21:45I wanna be there if somebody sends me an important message
0:21:49or a call comes in that I need to have,
0:21:53that I might not need the phone for that
0:21:56if that's literally all I'm doing.
0:21:58Obviously, above a certain point,
0:22:01you're like, oh yeah, okay,
0:22:02of course I need my phone for this.
0:22:03But I do think some amount would come out.
0:22:05And in the fitness area, you'd see it a lot.
0:22:08And that's a major focus of the Apple Watch.
0:22:12Obviously, the more independent the watch is,
0:22:15the better the OS also needs to get
0:22:17in terms of the apps being better
0:22:19and being more self-sufficient.
0:22:22And I hope we get there, 'cause that would be great
0:22:27if the apps were more, like,
0:22:30if I wanna check Slack,
0:22:34I can't do it on my Apple Watch because the Slack app for Apple Watch is terrible.
0:22:39But some of the other apps are better than that.
0:22:41So that would be something that would be kind of on Apple as a developer of the App Platform
0:22:45and the third-party app developers as well to say, "Okay, in this next generation of
0:22:50Apple Watch, you now actually really need to think about having a fully featured app
0:22:56that is loading data off the internet."
0:22:58Because while they can do that now with Wi-Fi, so Apple's already laid the groundwork there,
0:23:03going to be a much more common experience once Apple Watch with LTE,
0:23:07you know, series 3 or whatever they call it, ships. Right, because like here's one
0:23:12thing, right, like I would want to have podcasts on my Apple Watch so I
0:23:15could go out for a walk in the neighborhood and listen to my next
0:23:20episode of The Adventure Zone, right? But, I mean, look at, you know, I'll put a link
0:23:25in the show notes to Under the Radar episode 91, which has a nice succinct
0:23:30kind of discussion between Marco and David about Marco's current issues with Overcast
0:23:37on the Apple Watch and how there are changes I think with watchOS 4 maybe where it's just
0:23:43not going to be possible anymore to do what he has been doing. So like well, let's assume
0:23:49that this thing is going to have a cellular radio in it, well currently watchOS 4 doesn't
0:23:53have a good way for people to build these apps. So unless a new Apple Watch comes with
0:23:58some significant changes, just having an LTE in the watch is not going to be able to allow
0:24:04me to uncouple myself from it.
0:24:06Exactly.
0:24:07I'm baffled that there is no podcast app on the Apple Watch and that they're not
0:24:10allowing podcast syncing, but it is hard, as Marco has discovered, it is hard because
0:24:14you have to basically triage what goes on the watch.
0:24:18Depending on what load it puts on, like loading data is probably going to kill the battery
0:24:24on it, so you're going to want to keep the data load low.
0:24:26what you probably wouldn't want to do is write a client that just streams
0:24:32podcasts on the fly but you could, right? Where you know...
0:24:38Yeah, I guess so.
0:24:39Right? But then it sounds like there are a lot of problems with like
0:24:41background audio and things like that that Marco has found that are
0:24:45fundamental problems that have to be addressed by Apple
0:24:50basically. So I do think that's a real question mark about the Apple
0:24:54watch in general is why is there no podcast story if if independence of
0:24:58device independence is the goal and and yet people who are trying like market
0:25:03who are trying to build device independent apps you know phone
0:25:07independent watch only all acting by itself independent right and they and
0:25:13they're hitting these walls that sounds like you know Apple's got a lot more
0:25:16work to do because they can they can ship this independent device and it's
0:25:20not going to matter if the third-party apps to take advantage of it are not, you
0:25:25know, able to be built. So also in Germin's report he says that to enable this
0:25:31Apple have been working on continued battery life improvements for the watch
0:25:34which makes sense. Gotta be, right? And so my wonder is I assume that the LTE chip
0:25:41would not be constantly connected like it would just switch on when they
0:25:44couldn't detect the iPhone anymore. Yeah that's that's what I was kind of
0:25:48assuming is that this would be something that only activates when it loses touch with either
0:25:55an open Wi-Fi network or its buddy iPhone, right? That if it doesn't have either of those,
0:26:01then the cellular radio would spin up. But otherwise, you know, but that's, I mean, that's
0:26:06not surprising. That's energy-saving features. Like you want to be as efficient as possible.
0:26:12And since it knows it's got a buddy, especially like when it's connected to the phone, it
0:26:17knows it doesn't need it because it's buddy is there. The big brother is there.
0:26:21So uh, John Gerber and Darren Fireball linked to this and in his kind of link post he mentioned
0:26:27that he's been hearing from, from a source that there is an all new form factor coming
0:26:34for the new watches. Yeah, I wonder what that means.
0:26:39Because it doesn't make sense to me, you know, like we were talking about it and I think
0:26:44it was last week and I was saying that if they want to maximize battery life
0:26:47just keep keep it looking the same right because you can probably pack more stuff
0:26:51in there but who knows I mean that could mean a new form factor could literally
0:26:54mean anything really yeah it could just mean new corners do you know what I mean
0:26:58like it could be the same thickness could be thicker right for all we know
0:27:02right could be bigger but it's not impossible it's not an impossible thought
0:27:06that they would change it but unless a change that they made was clearly
0:27:12obvious, you know, like you look at it and you're like "oh yeah they had to do that
0:27:16because of the LTE chip" I don't know, I'm not sure if they need to. A little antenna
0:27:22sticking out of it, you pull the antenna out. Well I'm thinking more something for
0:27:27antenna bands or something like that, right, like there might be, you know, that
0:27:31there might be a visual change in some way that's like "oh okay that makes
0:27:35sense now" right, like there's some kind of change to it that way because it's
0:27:39to need those, you know, and it doesn't seem to have any clear path for the radios. I don't
0:27:48really know enough about how that works, but, you know, it's just like a mini iPhone, and
0:27:52the iPhone still needs the antenna band, so maybe the watch would too, so that might make
0:27:57some kind of change.
0:27:59Yeah, well, we'll see. We'll see if that's this year's. John's not betting the house
0:28:05on it and doesn't think we should either which is probably a good idea but it's
0:28:11funny you know two weeks ago we got asked what about a new Apple watch and
0:28:15we were both like maybe you know it's not like not not the I think you said
0:28:21that you thought they they would and I thought you know they might but they
0:28:24might not and now with this it's it's heating up it's feeling it's feeling
0:28:31stronger now is the thing you know there seems to be more stuff coming and there's
0:28:35in the gift that keeps on giving as people continue to I think kind of
0:28:40amazingly find out more and more tidbits of information from the incredible like
0:28:48just incredible home pod leak story from from a week or two ago it had been
0:28:56corroborated potentially in saying that there's like a string of text which was
0:29:00found by a Twitter user via the name of RealAntonioM that there seems to be some kind of reference
0:29:10to an Apple Watch with a SIM in it. So there's a line that talks about Gizmo and SIM. And
0:29:16apparently Gizmo is an Apple Watch code name. And if we see that reference is SIM, well,
0:29:24that's the cell radio, right? So there's more--it just continues to go, this HomePod stuff.
0:29:30and it's just continuing to find more and more and more information.
0:29:34Yeah, it's uh...
0:29:38Yeah, I, so last week on download, um, I had Michael Gartenberg on who used to work at Apple
0:29:44and his, I mean, he said what I figured is the case, which is, in the end, is this going to affect Apple sales?
0:29:50No. It's going to make a bunch of people sad and angry and embarrassed and all of those things.
0:29:54all of those things. But he did say, "Boy, whoever did this, I feel really bad for them
0:30:00because this is the kind of thing where..." I think he even said, "This is the kind of
0:30:04thing where you get taken out behind the shed and shot." It's just this is an executable
0:30:10offense. It was almost certainly a mistake, but it's also probably a mistake that was,
0:30:16"Put this in here before you do this," and they didn't do that. So then all this data
0:30:22gets leaked because it's not just that the firmware got posted, it's also that all the
0:30:26stuff that's supposed to be hidden was not hidden in the firmware build. So yeah, yeah,
0:30:34it's tough with all the security and secrecy stuff that Apple's been doing that in the
0:30:38end they, you know, they released this firmware blob that gives away just huge amounts of
0:30:45information and the more you look at it, the more you glean from it apparently.
0:30:48Yeah, I wanted to just call reference to a couple of, like just a trio of things that
0:30:54have come out since that I thought were kind of interesting.
0:30:57So these are all in reference to the next iPhone, so some stuff that will come to iOS
0:31:0211 post the next iPhone release.
0:31:05There are references made to something called attention detection, which could potentially,
0:31:12what people are theorizing that by looking at some of this code, that the phone could
0:31:16know if you're looking at it and make changes based upon that. One of them being something
0:31:20like silencing notifications. So not making notification noises if you're looking at your
0:31:25phone because it knows you can see the banners. So that's really interesting. There are references
0:31:31to many references to many many many facial expressions that the system should be able
0:31:37to detect. I have no idea what that could mean but right like if you think about it
0:31:42the photo stuff should be helping them understand if I'm smiling and if I'm sad and that kind
0:31:48of stuff and there is code that references all of these facial expressions. I don't know
0:31:53what they would do with that honestly, I have no idea but that's there, that's the thing.
0:31:59And also the ability to double tap on the home screen to wake the screen. Now this is
0:32:05interesting to me because I can't work out why they would add this. Now my thinking would
0:32:10be that maybe because there's no button to press to wake the screen, like you know if
0:32:15your phone's on the desk right now, you can just press the button and wake the screen
0:32:19up, you know, if you just want to wake the screen up. But you can't do that if there's
0:32:24no button, right? So just double tapping anywhere on the screen will wake the phone, which I
0:32:29would quite like actually.
0:32:30Yeah, if it knows that you're there and it recognizes you, you just tap and it opens,
0:32:35or double tap and it opens. That's very interesting. The faces I have a couple dumb
0:32:40dumb theories which is if it knows what your expression is that it might first off it might
0:32:45actually change like an icon which is a silly thing but it's like if you're smiling it's
0:32:51the icon smiles and if you're not smiling it doesn't smile i also thought about some
0:32:55messages feature where like you can send an emoji and it's whatever your current facial
0:33:00expression is if they could find that somehow to work that would be beautifully stupid right
0:33:06Like it would just be so brilliant and so dumb, but like a great thing to show someone.
0:33:11It would be a great demo.
0:33:13Yeah, exactly.
0:33:15And that sounds like something Apple would do.
0:33:17It does.
0:33:18That's a real-- I actually like the Emoji One a lot.
0:33:22I can see that being an iMessage app, you know, that they make.
0:33:26I actually think that-- I don't think anyone really use it, but it's-- or at least any
0:33:31more than-- what is that called?
0:33:34the digital touch.
0:33:39But it would at least be funny.
0:33:40And as Joe says, what is the facial expression for a frowning pile of poo?
0:33:44Nobody knows.
0:33:45We'll find out, maybe, come September.
0:33:49I hope not.
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0:35:29Q3 results time, Jason.
0:35:31It's results time.
0:35:32- Oh boy, get out your charts.
0:35:34- Everybody get your charts ready.
0:35:35Okay, I'm gonna give a quick,
0:35:37I'm gonna give some numbers
0:35:38and some statistics breakdowns now,
0:35:40in case anybody wasn't following along last week.
0:35:43So Apple reported in Q3 2017,
0:35:47$45.4 billion in revenue,
0:35:50which is up from $42.4 billion year on year.
0:35:54So an increase from Q3 2016 to Q3 2017
0:35:58for $3 billion. They're forecasting their Q4 revenue guidance between $49 billion to
0:36:05$52 billion. So it's somewhere between $49 and $52. There's a lot of money, Q4 2016,
0:36:13Apple brought in $46.9. So they're probably around going to, I mean looking at where they're
0:36:19forecasting they're probably going to be around the $50 mark, which is a lot of money. I expect
0:36:24that they're thinking the next iPhone's gonna get off
0:36:26to a real strong start.
0:36:28Now, Q4 obviously does not include the holiday season.
0:36:33That's all the Q1 stuff, right?
0:36:34That, am I following that correctly?
0:36:36So Q1 is the holiday season results.
0:36:39But Q4 would include the next iPhone release.
0:36:43So it looks like Apple's thinking
0:36:46that they've got a hit on their hands.
0:36:48I guess that's what we would assume
0:36:49from looking at this forecasting guidance, right?
0:36:52Yeah, I think it implies that the first, you know, week or weekend or week and a half,
0:37:04it really depends on where the new iPhones come out, but that there's some burst of iPhone
0:37:09sales that will happen in this quarter.
0:37:12I think this quarter ends like, I think this quarter ends maybe the 24th of September,
0:37:21something like that. I'm trying to do some quick calculations here. So I think that's
0:37:28right. Maybe it ends the 30th of September. Maybe it is straight up July, August, September.
0:37:36It depends on when the--because the quarter isn't clear month by month, it's a set of
0:37:42weeks. But yeah, if this is a 12-week quarter for these months, that's--yeah, that's about
0:37:50right. So yeah, Apple's basically saying in that first week or two, they're going to see enough
0:37:56iPhone sales to book that they have to roll those into their guidance. And so their guidance is up
0:38:01from what they said their guidance was. And as we've talked about before, when you're confused
0:38:05about what Apple stock is doing, it's because anticipation of the future is already built into
0:38:10the current price of the Apple stock. So when Apple posts guidance for next quarter, that's
0:38:16higher than Wall Street expected, then the stock goes up because Apple's basically said,
0:38:24"You undervalued us. We're actually worth more than you even thought next quarter."
0:38:28And so then everything rises with that. And Apple tends to be fairly conservative on that,
0:38:31although lately they've been more kind of just accurate about it. And so they're definitely
0:38:37saying they're going to be up quarter over quarter from year on year from last year as
0:38:42well as quarter over quarter, and that they're going to be probably, you know, probably above
0:38:47or at 50 billion.
0:38:50So as you would probably expect, iPhone, Mac, and services sales were all up, but most notably,
0:38:59I think, iPad sales were up as well. It's finally happened. iPad sales are up year on
0:39:06year.
0:39:07Yeah, I had that thought when that came out, like, "What are we seeing here?"
0:39:13And it, you know, maybe it's just one quarter, who knows what will happen next quarter?
0:39:18So I don't want to be premature and say, "Alright, it's turned it around."
0:39:22But this is literally the first time sales units have gone up year over year in a quarter for three years.
0:39:33So even if it is, let's just jump ahead for a moment and we'll try and dig into why we
0:39:38think this has happened. But even if this is just a one-time thing, what it's done is
0:39:44prove that it can be done. And that is pretty important, I think. What Apple have done here
0:39:53is prove that year on year, they can make an effect. So I think that this is something
0:40:00that they really need, right? Like these iPad sales going up, that is really important. Like,
0:40:07that is a very important thing. Yeah, I think, maybe. I mean, what it seems to me is that the,
0:40:13um, in this, there's an education cycle going on here where education is selling and they said that
0:40:19Apple education sales in the US were up a lot. Um, the low cost fifth generation iPad seems to
0:40:25have driven a lot of sales. Average selling price of the iPad is down, which
0:40:30means that more of the mix of iPad sold was the fifth-generation iPad, the cheap
0:40:37iPad, and not the new iPad Pros as much that came out. But in the end, you know, in
0:40:44the end it's more iPad sold and if you're wondering whether the iPad is
0:40:49just going to keep declining or whether it's going to flatten out or turn around,
0:40:53And this is the first sign of reversing the downward trend really in three years.
0:41:04So there were 11.4 million iPads sold, which is up from 10 million from the Q3 previous,
0:41:13with revenue up 1.9% at 4.87 billion.
0:41:20This is ending, as we mentioned, the 13 quarter sales decline.
0:41:23So as you pointed out, right, like that even though units were up, the average sales price
0:41:29decreased so it would probably indicate that sales of the $329 iPad have been doing really
0:41:37well and that maybe this is the product that turned the tide, not the pro models.
0:41:44And this jives with feedback that we were getting earlier this year when, remember when
0:41:51I went on my tear about iPad sales numbers for a couple of weeks. Well we were getting
0:41:58lots of people from schools and school districts writing in to say that they were waiting for
0:42:03a revision for the non-pro iPad line because they didn't want an iPad Pro. It was too expensive
0:42:08and they didn't have features they wouldn't need. They wanted a new Air and that's what
0:42:12Apple gave them in this past quarter. So it could be that this is part of that, right?
0:42:17that there's been a lot of people waiting for this product.
0:42:20But again, like, I don't, for me personally,
0:42:24like, I don't think it matters what it was,
0:42:27just the fact that it happened.
0:42:30Because it happening means there are ways to do this,
0:42:35that there are ways to have the growth curve change.
0:42:40So Apple need to focus on what those will be, right?
0:42:43Like, I think about the Mac line,
0:42:46because I think it's closest to compare the Mac and the iPad lines together.
0:42:51And I'm sure, right, you know, again, we've seen this, we've heard the arguments that
0:42:57Apple posed at the roundtable about the Pro thing.
0:43:01The Pro line does not take up the majority of Mac sales.
0:43:07But the Pro line is where a lot of the work is going on.
0:43:09It's where a lot of the advancement is going on.
0:43:11the sales of a cheaper model, the sales of the more regular consumer models, they help
0:43:17prop up the development of the entire product line, allowing the pro line, so the pro desktops
0:43:22and therefore the pro iPads, to continue pushing the product forward and then the advancements
0:43:29can trickle down to the rest of the line. So you see improvement on the top end which
0:43:33can trickle down to the lower end products. If the iPad can work this way, that's fantastic,
0:43:39Like this is what it needs to do.
0:43:42Well, it needs to show signs of life, that's for sure, right?
0:43:47And if this is the way that it works, if this is the ecosystem for it, I think that's
0:43:52fine, right?
0:43:53The idea that the iPad is going to have a volume seller that is down a lot lower and
0:44:00some less volume but really awesome sellers at the high end than the iPad Pro, I agree,
0:44:08fine, that's fine. And it seems like Apple, this has been Apple's strategy all along,
0:44:12is we're going to split the line and we're going to push part of it up and the other
0:44:16part down. And how is that working? And the answer is now the iPad is simultaneously cheaper
0:44:23and more powerful, depending on which one you want. And it worked this time. Let's see
0:44:30how it keeps working, right? Is there going to be an upswing here or is this more about
0:44:35kind of finding a new level that-- keeping in mind that if the iPad were to grow slightly,
0:44:40it would be the size of the Mac in terms of revenue. So, you know, maybe that's fine.
0:44:48Like maybe that's the level, but as long as it was going down, we didn't know. So that's
0:44:53the thing that I take from it that I think you take from it too is this is a sign that
0:44:57we're going to get an answer about what an iPad business looks like that we maybe didn't
0:45:02know before because we were like, are they just going to keep selling fewer of them until
0:45:05they're none? Or where does it stop? What's the size of this market? How do we start to
0:45:11understand what the iPad market is? And now maybe we can.
0:45:15And also, you know, as a part of it for me, which is, I mean, this is obvious, this is
0:45:19clear, this is how it should be, but the fact that they have been able to make this change
0:45:24shows to me that Apple understands how to do it, right? They've worked it out. Like,
0:45:28somebody had a thought that they were like, "Oh, what we should do is also make a cheap
0:45:339-inch iPad, which is going to take a regression in some ways so we can bring the price down.
0:45:40Why do we do this? Because we think it might help us sell more iPads in general." And they
0:45:43did it and it worked. Right, like somebody had that idea and was able to convince whoever
0:45:49was needed to be convinced that this was the thing that had to happen, which is just another
0:45:54thing as an iPad user which makes me happy because it proves that they're willing to
0:45:59try something rather than just be like "No, we're going to keep doing what we've been
0:46:04doing for the last four years and just hope that it will work." That's what we're going
0:46:08to do.
0:46:09Sure, it'll work out.
0:46:10Right?
0:46:11Sure.
0:46:12And that's not what they did and it's changed. And you know, we've also got these fantastic
0:46:16new iPads as well which I'm sure have helped, right? I can't imagine that it didn't help.
0:46:20I'm sure that they helped, but then it's been bolstered by this other stuff.
0:46:24And I'm wondering, Jason, do you think that iOS 11 will help?
0:46:29Yes, I do.
0:46:33I think that although we can all, as nerds, get excited about what iOS 11 has in terms
0:46:38of transforming the iPad and making especially the iPad Pro amazing and way better than it's
0:46:43been, you know, regular people, Apple needs to give that message to regular people once
0:46:49it's got it in hand, which means that once iOS 11 ships in the fall, thus kicking off
0:46:55the fall and holiday sales period, they're going to be able to use iOS 11 as part of
0:47:01that message and I think it will be effective.
0:47:03I think that will be helpful because I don't think iPad sales moved this past quarter because
0:47:09of iOS 11 being in the offing, right?
0:47:11I don't think that consumer markets work like that.
0:47:13Wall Street might work like that where they've been on the future, but you know, outside
0:47:17of our circles where there are betas being passed around, right, by, you know,
0:47:22public betas and developer betas and all of that. Outside of this circle, iOS 11 is
0:47:27just kind of a promise. It's an IOU right now. When it's real, it could make a real
0:47:31difference. I mean, in some ways it's still an IOU to us because there are
0:47:36features we can't use yet, features that are probably going to change a lot of the
0:47:39way that we work for a lot of good reasons. Like drag and drop and files,
0:47:43probably the two biggest parts of iOS 11, we can't really use everywhere and...
0:47:49Right, because the apps haven't been updated to support them yet and that'll come this fall.
0:47:53Mm-hmm.
0:47:54So even then, like, there's gonna be more and more of it and my hope is that there is
0:47:58gonna be a really strong marketing campaign around the iPad Pro at that point because
0:48:04the holiday season's coming and the holiday season could see movement in the Pro market
0:48:09but there could also be movement even further in this $329 iPad
0:48:14because it's going to be able to do a lot of this stuff, right? It'd be able to do basically all of it, I think.
0:48:18It just doesn't have a keyboard, but it's going to be able to do all the multitasking,
0:48:22it's going to have the dock and all that sort of stuff, right? Like it's not being left behind.
0:48:26So I think that there is a strong case
0:48:30to be made for the Q4 results as well. Now I'm trying to let myself get
0:48:36get ahead of myself, right? Like, right now I'm just trying to focus on the fact that
0:48:41finally I don't have to live in fear of the results every time because it's provable
0:48:48that this will end. You know, this is what we always spoke about every single time. This
0:48:52will end at some point and it's ended. And it's actually ended with an increase. It's
0:48:57not ended with a complete stall, right? Like it's just been declined, declined, declined.
0:49:03I always thought it was just going to level out, but it's actually gone up a little
0:49:06bit, which is, I think, is very positive news. So I'm feeling like Tim, I'm feeling
0:49:13bullish right now. They didn't say that this time, did they?
0:49:18Nobody asked him anything about the iPad because the numbers were good, and he didn't feel
0:49:22the need to offer other than, you know, he said it did well here and it did well here.
0:49:26But there was no, basically once your numbers go up, they stop asking, you know, and he
0:49:31stops offering like, "No, no, it's going to be fine," because the numbers were fine.
0:49:34So everybody's like, "All right, good, great, let's move on." And so he didn't have to give
0:49:39the iPad another vote of approval, feeling good about it, think it's going to be great
0:49:43in the end. He didn't have to do that this time.
0:49:46And he did cite that as well, the US education market did play into this, right, which I
0:49:51think lends the idea of the 329, just reaffirms that, but also said that Apple saw iPad growth
0:49:57in China and Japan with more than half of these users being new to iPad. That's always
0:50:02good.
0:50:03Yeah, that is a sign. One of the challenges is what's the market for this and are new
0:50:09people coming into this market? Is there room for growth, not just selling new models to
0:50:14people who have old models, but actual growth in the market? And they saw that in China
0:50:18and Japan.
0:50:20So outside of this iPad stuff, was there anything else in the earnings call that interested
0:50:26you, was there any things that Tim was saying or any questions that were being thrown that
0:50:29really kind of piqued your interest?
0:50:31Well, you know, Tim is excited about augmented reality and keeps on talking about it, which
0:50:39is great. He's very excited. He's not downplaying it, right? He's not trying to say, "You know,
0:50:45we'll see how it goes." He's very much like, "It's going to be huge. iOS 11 is going to
0:50:52make Apple the world's biggest augmented reality platform when it ships. He thinks it's big
0:50:58and profound and one of those huge things he said that we'll look back at and marvel
0:51:02at the start of it. So he is all the way in on the AR hype and I think that's interesting.
0:51:09We got an Apple Watch check-in because remember they don't actually reveal results of the
0:51:13Apple Watch but they did say that sales were up 50% presumably over the year ago quarter.
0:51:18That also means it was probably not like the record that they set earlier, but it is, you
0:51:24know, the top selling smartwatch in the world by a very wide margin, and then we make our
0:51:28guesses about what that might actually mean.
0:51:32The other two things that I think he mentioned that were worth at least citing, he's been
0:51:38trying to, he's been asked several times about whether the statement by the President of
0:51:43United States that Apple's making three big beautiful plants in the US was true and he
0:51:49keeps trying to kind of like turn those around and say well let me explain we're investing
0:51:52in in US manufacturing and we have a billion dollar fund and we already spent 200 billion
0:51:57or 200 we have a billion dollar fund and we spent 200 million in Kentucky on Corning their
0:52:02glass factory and we'll make some other investments and basically doesn't want to answer this
0:52:07question about the statement about three big plants because it sounds like that was a misunderstanding
0:52:11but he's not going to say, "President doesn't know what he's talking about." So instead
0:52:15he's like, "Look, I think this is where this is coming from. We are making investments
0:52:19in US manufacturing and that's all we're going to say."
0:52:26It's just three really big trees in Apple Park.
0:52:29It's just in his office. It's three ficuses.
0:52:31Three huge plants.
0:52:32Beautiful in Tim's office. That's totally what it is. And then the last thing I wanted
0:52:36to mention about the about the analyst call because I thought that I could transcribe
0:52:40it again is there was a an analyst who actually there's always one who says should we believe
0:52:51blogs and component suppliers about the possible delays of the new iPhone given that you're
0:52:58forecasting your revenue so strongly for next quarter to which Tim Cook said we have no
0:53:03comment on anything that's not announced and the analyst replied, "Fair enough, I thought
0:53:10it was worth a shot." And then, seriously, when he says that, the entire room in Cupertino
0:53:16just starts laughing for a few, for like five seconds.
0:53:19Oh really? That's amazing.
0:53:20Yeah, oh yeah. "I figured it's worth a shot," he said, and then there was lots of laughter
0:53:24and then they moved on to the next question. It was pretty funny, but like, they, they,
0:53:28there's always one, somebody's gonna give it a shot.
0:53:30Someone has to ask it. At least they're self-aware, right? That they know that they're never gonna get the answer.
0:53:36But you've got to ask.
0:53:38They're never gonna get the answer. I liked how he phrased it.
0:53:41Yeah.
0:53:41I like how he phrased it as like, "Well, we're looking at your guidance, so what does that say?"
0:53:45And then he's trying to negate it like, "That certainly doesn't seem like you think that there are gonna be delays."
0:53:51And they're like, "Yeah, nice try."
0:53:52Yeah. You got so close. Good work.
0:53:55Yeah.
0:53:56Wasn't there some kind of reference to the HomePod thing as well? Didn't it make some
0:53:59kind of joke about it?
0:54:00I don't know.
0:54:01I might have just read somebody making a Twitter joke by themselves. You know what these things
0:54:08could be like if you're not following along. Well you don't because you have to listen
0:54:10to everything. But there's lots of jokey-mo-jokes during these types of situations.
0:54:14There are. It's true.
0:54:15So I may have misread something. So I'm really happy about these numbers.
0:54:21I can tell.
0:54:22It's just a sigh of relief really.
0:54:24It's just, you know, look, me and you
0:54:27and a few other people, many other people,
0:54:29we try and do our best to tell the story of the iPad
0:54:32because we believe in the product, right?
0:54:34But it can be really hard that every time we talk about it,
0:54:37people just like, "Wow, but none of them are selling."
0:54:39It's just a difficult thing to have to deal with, right?
0:54:44Because it's undermining every point that I make
0:54:48because Apple aren't selling them.
0:54:50Well, they are again, and that's good news I think.
0:54:53- Definitely.
0:54:54- All right, today's show is also brought to you
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0:56:28Alright Jason it is time for a USA version of #AskUpgrade.
0:56:33So this probably would mean fireworks this time, right?
0:56:36Rather than lasers?
0:56:37Yep, that's right.
0:56:38Chomp, chomp, chomp, chomp, chomp.
0:56:41Those fireworks sounded specific, like kind of suspiciously laser-like, but we don't have
0:56:45to worry about that.
0:56:46The lasers ignited the fireworks, you missed that nuance there.
0:56:49Wow.
0:56:50To start off with Frank today who asked if we think that iMessage syncing could bring
0:56:54iMessage to iCloud.com.
0:56:56So, couple of things on this.
0:56:58iMessage syncing is where Apple is storing iMessages
0:57:02in the cloud and will be delivering them
0:57:05to all of your devices.
0:57:06It keeps kind of everything in check,
0:57:07stops the reordering and all of the random stuff.
0:57:09I don't know if you ever get this,
0:57:11but like if I open a computer I haven't seen in a while,
0:57:14they all download one by one
0:57:15and they're all in really weird orders and stuff like that.
0:57:17- Yep, terrible.
0:57:18- This tool, this feature is being made
0:57:22to stop some of this and to help some of this.
0:57:24However, I will also mention that iOS 11 Beta 5 came out today and in the release notes
0:57:30they mentioned that this feature is going to, has been removed and will be added later.
0:57:35This isn't the first time I've done this.
0:57:37This happens.
0:57:38It might come in 1.1, sorry 11.1 or something like that.
0:57:44They just, I assume feel like they haven't got this right.
0:57:46This does seem like an incredibly tricky thing to do correctly and to do safely and securely.
0:57:50So I guess they're just holding until they get all the bugs worked out.
0:57:53Right, I mean imagine iOS 11 launching and every single iPhone user and iPad user basically
0:57:59at that moment is suddenly using a brand new cloud service which means they're hitting
0:58:03Apple servers and if they don't have that down cold, right, everybody's going to complain
0:58:11and the whole story of the iOS 11 update is going to be that all of their message histories
0:58:15got messed up.
0:58:17So I'm going to give them some credit here.
0:58:19At some point, somebody said, "Nope, we're not going to ship it.
0:58:23We'll ship it with 11.1, 11.0.1," whatever it is.
0:58:27We'll ship it in October, November, December, whatever, but not at launch because we need
0:58:34to get it right.
0:58:36Good for them.
0:58:37Yeah, I was thinking about this.
0:58:39I wonder if they did anything to try and test under the conditions of what happens when
0:58:44new iPhones are sold, right, and what happens to Apple servers.
0:58:48were like, "Oh, well if this happens, iMessage is really dead, like super dead, so why don't
0:58:53we just try and stagger all this out a little bit, you know, like let's just chill everything
0:58:56down." But back to Frank's question, do we think that this iMessage syncing could bring
0:59:01iMessage to the web, iCloud.com? I don't think they're going to do that. I don't think that's
0:59:06what they will want to do.
0:59:08It looks like Frank said could, and I will say, "Yeah, sure, it could." Like, I'm unclear
0:59:13on what Apple is prioritizing in terms of what goes on iCloud.com, but once it's up
0:59:21there and you put in your password so that you can decrypt your data, which is what happens
0:59:26when you're on iCloud.com, it could, but I'm not sure whether I can see the use case that
0:59:34would make them prioritize that.
0:59:37Do you think that in that scenario could the same question be made for like an Android
0:59:42app? Would that become more possible with this?
0:59:48I don't know. I guess. I mean, I think it makes bringing iMessage anywhere now that
0:59:55there's a canonical cloud record of the entire library. I think it could. But I think the
1:00:05goal here is to free up space on devices, right? I think the goal here is to get things
1:00:11into order so that you don't have weird things where your devices are out of sync and to
1:00:16have the ability to mark that stuff as purgeable because it's stored in the cloud so that you
1:00:21don't have, because what happens is people have years of iMessage history sitting on
1:00:25their devices and if you can sync that to the cloud that means that once it's in the
1:00:29cloud you can delete it from the devices which is helpful. So I think those are the reasons.
1:00:33Yeah I haven't done this yet but I was digging around the storage settings before the trip
1:00:38on beta 4 and there's this the the you know where you go into about you go into
1:00:43storage and usage
1:00:44um that whole screen is really fantastically designed
1:00:47now it's it's really nicely broken out one of them was just like hey you can
1:00:51get eight
1:00:52bytes of data back if you let us delete these messages from your device but it was
1:00:56saved in the cloud
1:00:57I was like that's really good as soon as this becomes an official
1:01:00supported feature like as soon as it's released I'm gonna do that because
1:01:04they'll be there I'll trust that they'll be there and I'll get them if I need them
1:01:07you know, it's all like the attachments and stuff of years and years and years and years
1:01:11of messages. But that screen is good now, like it says like, "Hey, why don't you delete
1:01:15some of these iTunes movies you've watched?" And it's really nicely designed screen now,
1:01:19rather than just being a list of apps. And then it has all the app offloading and all
1:01:23that sort of stuff as opposed to deleting. There's a lot of really interesting stuff
1:01:26in there now, which I think is kind of cool. Okay, Panagiotis asked, "Is the need to run
1:01:33Windows in Parallels on a Mac a reason enough to stay away from the 12-inch
1:01:38MacBook that seems pretty demanding is that demanding I feel like that would be
1:01:42a pretty demanding thing well you know it's running on the Intel processor so
1:01:49it could do it I feel like the bigger issues with running Parallels or any VM
1:01:55on a device on a Mac is RAM and storage because you got to have enough memory to
1:02:03hold the PC memory in memory which is a lot and you've got to have storage for a
1:02:10PC hard drive image and have you done you know have you maxed out your MacBook
1:02:17at that point the process is going to be a little bit slower but yeah I don't
1:02:22know um parallels and VMware stuff work okay on slower processors I was able to
1:02:28use them with, you know, my MacBook Air, in fact. So it's pushing it, but I think the
1:02:35bigger issue is not going to be the processor being pokey. I think you got RAM and storage
1:02:39issues you have to deal with too. So that's the thing is if you undervalue any of those
1:02:45things or especially if you undervalue all of those things, you will run out of speed
1:02:49and it will get slower. Or you won't have space to install Windows on your drive, which
1:02:54can also happen.
1:02:56Andrew asked, "What is the over-under on an iTunes overhaul this fall?"
1:03:04Well we haven't seen it in any of the discussion of High Sierra, so I have to say I don't
1:03:11see how they would do it if not.
1:03:13Like, I'm starting to think, I don't think this is going to happen.
1:03:18Because at least I don't think it's happening any sooner.
1:03:22I don't think and because people are pointing to like the the iPod going away
1:03:26It's like oh and it's gonna happen quicker now
1:03:28but I don't think that that is really meaning that like the iPod touch still needs iTunes like and
1:03:34Apple would still want to give people the way to do this stuff of older iPods
1:03:38I don't think that this is something that is imminent
1:03:41I feel like iTunes has still got a lot of life left in it yet
1:03:45And we won't see an iTunes overhaul in my opinion until there's already an Apple music app
1:03:50I don't think that this is like a one and done like pulling the tablecloth out from underneath the table like I
1:03:57Feel like the Apple music will appear on the Mac and iTunes will still live for a while and then they'll slowly
1:04:03Kind of put some more component pieces in but I don't but definitely not seeing it in 2017. I would say
1:04:10Maybe 2018 we see like Apple music on the Mac or something and then starts to move on from there, but I
1:04:16Really don't think that this is an imminent thing
1:04:19anymore. I just I feel like they would have announced it if they were doing it
1:04:24this fall. Yeah I agree with you. Yeah. Hi Sierra because this is a this is this
1:04:28strikes me as being an OS feature. Hi Sierra. This strikes me as being an OS
1:04:33feature so the fact that they didn't announcement didn't announce it at WWDC
1:04:38that was the moment where I thought oh okay not gonna happen this year moving
1:04:42on doesn't mean they couldn't do it along the way they did photos right in
1:04:46the spring and had that be in an OS update that came out in the spring, photos appeared.
1:04:53But, I don't know. I think we've seen their story for the Mac, and I would be surprised
1:05:01if they kept something like that hidden and then dropped it in the fall. It could happen,
1:05:06but it goes against everything in their playbook about the Mac.
1:05:13James wanted to know how many apps can be placed in the dock on iOS 11 and I looked
1:05:19into this. It is 13 apps plus the three recent apps on the 10.5 and 9.7 and it is 15 apps
1:05:29plus the three recent apps on the 12.9. So the three recent apps is like three apps on
1:05:34the right hand side, like three apps you've recently used so you can just quickly access
1:05:38them again. So it's slightly different between the two sizes but it's still quite a lot in
1:05:43in there. And of course you can put folders in there too. So you can have everything if
1:05:49you want, but you can put folders in there. Do you have any folders in your doc as it
1:05:54is right now? I have one where it just has like Google Docs stuff and things like that.
1:05:58No, no. I tried it and I hated it. Honestly, I hated having the folder there and I hated
1:06:04the extra step of having to open it up in order to get the apps in there. And I'm also,
1:06:09I've heard Fraser and Federico talk about the issues with, you know, multitasking and
1:06:14how things have to be in the dock.
1:06:15I don't have apps, I don't have so many apps that I use occasionally in split-screen multitasking
1:06:24that I can't put them in the dock, which I know they do, but like I don't, I have on
1:06:29the 12.9, I've got 15 apps there, I don't have 15 apps in my dock because I just don't.
1:06:35And I don't want to put a folder in there, even for organizational purposes, because
1:06:39it's an extra tap then every single time I want to bring up that
1:06:42that app so I don't. Josh asked should Apple consider an iPad upgrade program
1:06:49mimicking what Microsoft is now doing with Surface?
1:06:52So a week or two ago Microsoft announced that there is a
1:06:57a new Surface program in which you can sign up and you'll get a new Surface
1:07:03every year like it's called Surface Plus and Surface Plus for business
1:07:08and you're effectively on a 24 month contract, but after the 18 month point has passed you can
1:07:16return the previous contracts and sign up again and get a new Surface device. So I was thinking
1:07:22about this, like this is another way to move iPads right? Like if that's a thing that you want to
1:07:27do, I don't know but I feel like this is maybe a little bit more of a last ditch attempt.
1:07:37I don't know, it's financing is what it is.
1:07:40It's financing.
1:07:41- Yeah.
1:07:42- It's financing and also trying to create a scenario of
1:07:46sort of forced upgrade.
1:07:51It's not quite forced, but like creating an upgrade cycle
1:07:54where there isn't one.
1:07:55Saying you like the latest and greatest
1:07:57so you can just pay us monthly
1:07:58and every 18 months you can get the latest and greatest.
1:08:01I would think that, I don't know,
1:08:04the people who want the latest and greatest
1:08:05are just gonna go out and buy it
1:08:06day that it's available. So we come back to what is this and it's sort of like, well,
1:08:12somebody who wants to pay a flat amount every month not have these occasional large purchases.
1:08:19I can see some value in that. Apple has offered sort of financing programs in the past. Maybe
1:08:25this is the future. Maybe the future is subscription services for our technology. But I don't know.
1:08:31The fact that Apple hasn't done it so far suggests that Apple's not super motivated
1:08:35to do this. I will say cellular carriers do this with iPads now. They will do this with
1:08:44a cellular iPad. They will do this. And I have a friend who is still, who is impatiently
1:08:49waiting for his, I think, T-Mobile iPad payment period to end so that he can get a new iPad.
1:09:00So they are out there.
1:09:03Those are more traditional, like cellular-based reimbursement kind of things.
1:09:10But it's all sort of similar.
1:09:11It's all just a matter of what...
1:09:15As a company, you just want to say, "What can I do to make people give me money?"
1:09:19And if it's offer them a monthly plan where they get to turn in their thing and get a
1:09:24new one every 18 months, great.
1:09:26Let's do that.
1:09:27And if they think that that'll make a big difference, but there's overhead there.
1:09:30I think Apple is so focused on the iPhone, I think maybe the iPad will just take care
1:09:33of itself.
1:09:37And finally today, Jeff asked whether the iPad iOS 11 keyboard is coming to the iPhone
1:09:44as well.
1:09:45So I assume that what Jeff is referencing here is the new iPad keyboard, which you can
1:09:52swipe on the keys to access punctuation and additional characters and numbers and stuff
1:09:57like that.
1:09:59So I wanted to just kind of, my thinking on this, I don't think that this is going to
1:10:04come to the iPhone because it's currently different on each iPad.
1:10:08So the smaller size gets the swiping keys for all punctuation, so the entire keyboard
1:10:13has these little glyphs on it which is every key has another function that you can do if
1:10:18you swipe down on it.
1:10:20But the 12.9 will only allow you to do this for the number row, you still have to click
1:10:24in to a button to bring up these additional keys.
1:10:28So my thinking is on the account that they've already decided that this isn't something
1:10:32that they need to mimic for both iPads, I don't think that we're going to see it for
1:10:38the iPhone either.
1:10:40Plus it would really be an iOS 11, so.
1:10:43Yeah exactly right.
1:10:44I mean technically the iOS 11 keyboard is coming to the iPhone because iPhones run iOS
1:10:5011 and the keyboard that's on the iPhone and iOS 11 is the iOS 11 keyboard for the iPhone,
1:10:54but yes you're right I think he means the little swipe downy thing and that is, yeah
1:10:57Yeah, just on the 9 7 and the 10 5 iPad Pros, they're not even on the, or, and iPads, they're
1:11:02not even on the 12 9, sadly. I guess, sadly, I don't know. It's a full screen on the 12
1:11:089, so, full-size keyboard, we're doing good on the 12 9. We don't need it. I don't even
1:11:13want it.
1:11:14It is nice to not have to hit the other button, though, right? Like, so you hit a button and
1:11:18then you have to hit another button.
1:11:19It is, it's really nice. I like it a lot. I think there are a lot, I think there's a
1:11:24lot to be said for it. Yeah, it's a pretty cool thing. I think, I don't know, I think
1:11:29the ergonomics of the phone and the iPad are so different that going that direction where
1:11:34you've got a lot of things that kind of get triggered on pull down, where would you, you
1:11:38can't label them, right? Because there's no room on an iPhone keyboard.
1:11:41Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point. For that secondary character labeling, so
1:11:46then they would be kind of a secret and then if you're just moving fast and you swipe your
1:11:49finger a little bit and then you get a weird character and I bet you they mocked something
1:11:53up and we're like, "No, forget it. This is not something that will work on the iPhone,
1:11:56but we could do it on the iPad."
1:11:57I mean, even if you could fit the labels, right, the labels would be so... They'd be
1:12:01too small, I think. I think it would end up being pretty small, especially on the smaller
1:12:06phones, right? Like, yeah, maybe you could do it on the Plus, right? But like, you can't
1:12:12continue to have this weird monster keyboard thing, right? Like on some... It just gets
1:12:17too messy. And it really works great on the 105 and the 97 iPads. The only thing I'll
1:12:23say on is whilst I really like it I feel like I'm hunting for the punctuation too
1:12:27much right like I because obviously the well don't but they don't seem to be in
1:12:34cases where I would specifically expect them to be because that's not actually
1:12:37how a keyboard works right like the the semicolon is not actually behind the K
1:12:45key right on my keyboard so it's like there isn't like a muscle memory that
1:12:50I've built up yet. Eventually maybe, but I will say the numbers, I've gotten really used
1:12:54to doing it with the numbers and I like that a lot. So that one's pretty sweet. So yeah,
1:12:59that's it. I think that it is a good feature, but it requires a little bit more work before
1:13:08maybe moving it to other devices if they ever would. I think it would be a bit tricky.
1:13:13Alright, so that wraps it up for this week's episode. If you want to find our show notes,
1:13:16you can head on over to relay.fm/upgrades/153.
1:13:20If you want to find Jason online,
1:13:21he's over at sixcolors.com.
1:13:23He is at the incomparable.com,
1:13:25he's @jsnell on Twitter, J-S-N-E-L-L.
1:13:28And I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E.
1:13:32I want to take one moment to thank our sponsors again,
1:13:34The Fine Folk at Encapsula, FreshBooks, and Squarespace.
1:13:39Will we both be back next time?
1:13:42- So I think the way we should put it is,
1:13:44now enters a series of special episodes of Upgrade. So we'll have a special episode next
1:13:51week that Myke won't be on, a special episode the week after that that Myke will be on with
1:13:56special guests, and then there will be, I think the week after that there's another
1:14:00episode with a guest star, although that'll be a more normal episode, and then finally
1:14:04Myke will be back. So I think you're only on one of the next three.
1:14:09So I hope that you'll miss me. But we have some great stuff.
1:14:12How could they not?
1:14:13some great stuff planned. I'm very excited for the episode that will be coming out on the 21st,
1:14:19which is our special with guests. So yeah, look out for that. We've had an idea and the idea
1:14:28spiraled out of control into new and amazing things. So there you go, look out for that one.
1:14:35Thanks so much for listening. Until next time, say goodbye, Jesus.
1:14:39Bye everybody.
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