0:00:00[Music]
0:00:08from Real AFM this is Upgrade episode number 116 today's show is brought to you by Mac Weldon
0:00:16in Capsula and Eero my name is Myke Hurley and I am joined across a very big body of water
0:00:24by Mr Jason Snell.
0:00:26Big body of water and then a large landmass. Let's not undersell it. It's very far away.
0:00:31Hello!
0:00:32Hello. Or you can go large landmass then big body of water if you want. It just depends
0:00:35which way you want to go, right? You can go anywhere.
0:00:39Ah, yeah. Fair point. Fair point. You could do it that way.
0:00:42You could if you want to think about it.
0:00:43That would kind of be the far way. What you want to do is just kind of go straight here
0:00:47over Greenland.
0:00:48Thanksgiving week.
0:00:51It is. So for those of us in the United States, it's a holiday week. I mean, we, of course,
0:00:57as I like to say in one of my other podcasts, we release the upgrade simultaneously worldwide
0:01:03like Netflix does with its original shows. We don't delay it for some markets. You all
0:01:06get it at the same time. That's how good we are. That's how nice we are. Forward thinking.
0:01:11But in this country, the US, this is a holiday week and Thursday is Thanksgiving Day. So
0:01:18So everybody gets Thursday and Friday generally off and sometimes the Wednesday.
0:01:25My kids have, let's see, my daughter has Wednesday, Thursday, Friday off.
0:01:28My son has the entire week off, which is kind of funny.
0:01:31I guess that's, I think some school districts just give up and they realize that they're
0:01:36going to, in the US school funding, a lot of school funding has to do for public school,
0:01:40has to do with attendance.
0:01:42And so if a school anticipates days that will not be well attended, they will often just
0:01:47make them holidays, make them vacation days, and move those days elsewhere in the year
0:01:52just because, you know, they can get better attendance on other days. So my son's middle
0:01:59school has just given up and given him the whole week off, so not eight feet away from
0:02:03me in the living room, my son and a friend of his are playing video games right now.
0:02:08It's a party.
0:02:09He's living the life.
0:02:10Yeah, it's Thanksgiving week. They're thankful that they have lots of video games to play.
0:02:14Which also means with being Thanksgiving week, I have some kind of weird pseudo-holiday week.
0:02:18It's very strange, because I just don't talk to anybody for a couple of days, right? Because
0:02:23everything shuts down.
0:02:24Steve McLaughlin Yeah. Life continues as normal. Although you
0:02:26could, you know, you could do what you did. You could go to an American restaurant for
0:02:30a Thanksgiving meal on Thursday.
0:02:32Adam Backman I'd considered it, but didn't get anything
0:02:34booked in. So that means I probably won't be able to do it. But we'll see. Maybe I'll
0:02:39find something. It's always options.
0:02:41Steve McLaughlin You can check that. Have some turkey. And
0:02:43like a little pre-Christmas Christmas for those over there. Yeah, this is a funny one
0:02:49because this is our, this is the one, I mean, 4th of July is like this too, where it s like
0:02:52it s a holiday only for us. And it used to not matter when, yeah, I was thinking about
0:02:58this, back before the internet, I know that s kind of a weird thing to say, but let me
0:03:02In ye olden days. And before, yeah, back in the old times, the old times, it s just one
0:03:08of those things where it, as an American, you didn't think about the fact that the rest
0:03:13of the world didn't celebrate this holiday. Everything you could see, your entire world
0:03:20was constrained to, like our TV channels were only American. Everything is only American.
0:03:27And you didn't have, with the internet, everything is much more globally connected now. So it's
0:03:34only been more recently that you get that effect of knowing that life goes on everywhere
0:03:41else while we are stuffing ourselves with turkey and rolls and yams and things like
0:03:49that. It's funny.
0:03:50Will Barron Once we're talking about that, Apple is strongly
0:03:52encouraging that everybody gets out of the house on Thanksgiving and actually participates
0:03:57in some exercise as opposed to just eating. So they are going to be, they kind of announced
0:04:04this via push notification I believe today to Apple Watch users that if you do a 5K,
0:04:09which is about 3 point something miles, 3.1 miles I'm told by Dan Morin at Six Colors,
0:04:14that you will get a special achievement badge in the activity app on your Apple Watch which
0:04:20is Thanksgiving themed. It's kind of cute.
0:04:24Yeah, yeah, I like this idea. I think it's a really great idea. The idea to motivate
0:04:30people, like what motivates somebody? Is a dumb Apple Watch badge going to motivate people?
0:04:35Well, maybe it will. I mean, I'm going to have that moment of like, "Oh, we should go
0:04:38for a walk today," which maybe before I would be like, "We should eat more yams." Yeah,
0:04:45that's right. More big potato. And instead, go out for a walk. So I think it's a fun idea
0:04:53to prompt people on a day like Thanksgiving to get out and move their bodies.
0:05:00We should do some follow-up. G. Llewellyn on Twitter wrote in to tell us, this is just
0:05:04an interesting tidbit, that in China the MacBook Pro with Touch Bar is called the Multi-Touch
0:05:09Bar version. And you can see it. I'll put a link in the show notes to a screenshot that
0:05:15G. Llewellyn sent to us and you can see it because they translate that part into English.
0:05:19It's called the Multi-Touch Bar. That's just an interesting thing to me. I mean, obviously
0:05:23this stuff happens quite a lot but I can't think of anything like product naming was
0:05:28from Apple that has been changed when translated like iPhone is iPhone is iPhone right? Yeah
0:05:33it might there must be some cultural reason right why it was considered or a trademark
0:05:38reason or something although I'm not sure that's a huge issue but something something
0:05:41like that where they decided that this was a safer way to to describe it. Dave wrote
0:05:47in to recommend a lightning to SD card adapter from a company called Lexar.
0:05:53Yeah, Lexar is a major manufacturer of memory cards basically.
0:05:58Okie dokie.
0:05:59And they have an actual physical adapter that you can plug into your iOS devices via lightning
0:06:05and you can pull the files straight directly from the SD cards.
0:06:09So this was in response to us talking last time about having a wireless SD card.
0:06:16- Yeah, the Toshiba Wi-Fi SD card.
0:06:19So Dave shows how fast things can move sometimes.
0:06:22I went and immediately purchased this,
0:06:24got it from Amazon, tried it out,
0:06:26and discovered that it was no good.
0:06:28Well, I was gonna write about it.
0:06:30First off, it uses micro SD cards,
0:06:32and my recorder, my portable recorder, the Zoom,
0:06:36uses full-size SD cards.
0:06:37So I would need to get a micro SD card with an adapter,
0:06:42and then pull that card out,
0:06:44and then pull the little card out of the adapter and then put it in in order to get it to work.
0:06:50But I like the idea of using a wired transfer, essentially a lightning port transfer instead
0:06:55of a Wi-Fi transfer. And then I do actually already have a couple of micro SD cards and
0:07:02they are readable by my devices and by my Mac and neither of them was readable by the
0:07:08Lexar thing. It was like, I don't know what to do. And so I went to Amazon and started
0:07:13a return and it's going it's in a box going back to Amazon now so I can't I
0:07:17can't maybe I got a bad one I don't know. It works for Dave. Dave said that he loses it. But it didn't work for me and I'm
0:07:25pretty happy with how the the Toshiba Wi-Fi card is working so I think I'm
0:07:29gonna stick with that. We've had a couple of people contact us maybe you could
0:07:33speak a little bit more to this Jason to say this is in response to an Ask God
0:07:37question, that it is possible to drive the LG 5K display via Thunderbolt 2. Now we were
0:07:43under the impression that it could only be driven by a Thunderbolt 3 capable device.
0:07:50- Right. So since it's, it sounds like, since this is happening where it's multiple channels
0:07:55of DisplayPort, what I've heard, and I can't confirm this, and I kept asking people who
0:08:01said that they had heard that this was possible, to let me know if they ever saw it in action,
0:08:06nobody has said this yet but I've heard because we answered with some confidence last week
0:08:12that it was impossible when we were asked about it on AskUprader.
0:08:14Because it literally says on a technical specifications that it works via a computer that has Thunderbolt
0:08:213. Like it says it on the page, right?
0:08:23Right. So it may be that some Macs have the video out capability, the GPU capability to
0:08:32do it if you attach a Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adapter to the display and
0:08:37then a Thunderbolt cable from the display to the computer. I don't know if
0:08:45that will work or not, but we heard from a couple people that it would. We heard
0:08:49rumblings that this may actually be set up in Apple stores as a way to
0:08:55display these things attached instead of the Thunderbolt display attached to like
0:09:01a Mac Pro. It's also possible that it will work, but it will work at a lower frame rate.
0:09:07It'll work at like 30 frames per second instead of 60. I don't know. So basically, we wanna
0:09:14say we've heard from some people that it may be more complicated than simply saying no,
0:09:19like we did last week. So the jury's still out on this. If you have seen one of these,
0:09:24I mean, they haven't even shipped yet is my understanding, right? So it may be that the
0:09:28first time we see them will be in an Apple store and somebody should look and see if
0:09:34they're attached via that Thunderbolt adapter. Maybe that'll be the story.
0:09:38But we just don't know.
0:09:39So…
0:09:40I think I might have something here, Jason.
0:09:41Oh, yes.
0:09:42All right. So the 5K display says "Connection Thunderbolt 3 enabled Mac." The 4K display
0:09:52says "USB-C enabled Mac."
0:09:54Yeah.
0:09:55So, they're different.
0:09:56They are different.
0:09:57- They are different. - They ask for different things.
0:09:59- They are different and I'm sure that lots of Macs
0:10:01can drive a 4K display.
0:10:03And yeah, so it's a mystery.
0:10:07So anyway, if somebody does succeed in getting
0:10:10the 5K display operating with a Mac
0:10:13that does not have Thunderbolt 3, let us know.
0:10:16That would be interesting.
0:10:18- Yeah, I'm still not holding out hope for this.
0:10:21- Yeah, I have skepticism that even if it does work,
0:10:24if it's optimal, that's really my thought there
0:10:27is it going to be able to drive it at 60 hertz like the modern Thunderbolt 3 Macs are?
0:10:35Is it going to melt your GPU? Who knows.
0:10:38Anything is possible.
0:10:39Anything is possible.
0:10:40Hey, are you at your new house or are you at your old house?
0:10:43Nope.
0:10:44So you're still in micro-office?
0:10:45Yeah, I'm still in micro-office. Due to a myriad of issues last week, I didn't end up
0:10:50recording any shows from the flat. I actually recorded less shows last week. I had to skip
0:10:54But this week I should be recording a couple of things from from Mega Office.
0:10:58Mega Office is now painted which is great.
0:11:01All right, are you still doing your chair plan?
0:11:06Yeah, no furniture yet. However, I'm maybe this weekend going to buy a desk.
0:11:11I'm gonna get a sit-stand desk which is gonna be new for me.
0:11:14Good, welcome.
0:11:15So yeah, I'm gonna I'm probably gonna well I'm definitely gonna be recording at least one show this week from from the new from the new flat.
0:11:23That's great.
0:11:24And just a piece of homework, next week is going to be our first holiday season mic at
0:11:31the movies, and as we mentioned before, it's going to be Gremlins.
0:11:34So we will be talking about Gremlins on next week's episode of Upgrade.
0:11:38So if you want to follow along with the final segment of the show, which will be our discussion
0:11:42about Gremlins, you need to watch before next Monday, which is also a reminder to me and
0:11:46Jason that we must watch the movie by next Monday.
0:11:48Yes.
0:11:49I've had a lot of podcast homework lately, watching various movies and TV shows for the
0:11:54incomparable and then I realized that my next bit of homework is for Upgrade. That's kind
0:12:00of fun. So sometime this week.
0:12:01Most important though, right? You agree with that? Myke at the Movies is the most important.
0:12:05Sure. Of course. Goes without saying.
0:12:08This week's episode of Upgrade is brought to you very kindly by our friends over at
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0:12:26Yes, I'm wearing it right now, so it's not better than what I'm wearing right now.
0:12:29That's why I said it, because I knew you would challenge me, because I know that you wear
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0:12:47I mean, as I've mentioned many, many times,
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0:12:51and they're the most fancy looking sweatpants
0:12:53that I've ever worn.
0:12:54I don't think I stick out like a sore thumb.
0:12:56You know, I don't look like I've just come from the gym.
0:12:58I look good, but the most important thing for me
0:13:01is that I feel good.
0:13:02I feel comfortable when I'm wearing this stuff as well.
0:13:05I love my Macworld and underpants as well.
0:13:08And I find the whole situation,
0:13:10the whole way of buying Macworld and products to be so easy.
0:13:13They have a great website. - The situation.
0:13:14- The whole situation.
0:13:15The situation of buying--
0:13:16The MacWeldon website situation is good, is what you're saying.
0:13:19They can put that on the website, right on the very top.
0:13:22Myke Hurley says, "The situation is good."
0:13:24I really do like their stuff.
0:13:26This is something that not only am I happy to tell you about it, I'm also happy to put
0:13:31it on my body.
0:13:32I think that's got to be the biggest endorsement that a human can give.
0:13:36They can put that on their website, too.
0:13:37You can also put-- I'm giving just tagline after tagline for MacWeldon.
0:13:40It's amazing.
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0:13:50Also it'll protect you from werewolves. They don't really promote that, but it's true.
0:13:55Put it on the website, Mack Weldon. Protect you from werewolves, says Jason Snow. Mack
0:13:59Weldon want you to be comfortable. They believe in that so much that if you don't like what
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0:14:13Listeners of this show can get 20% off at MacWeldon.com. That's Macweldon.com with the
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0:14:35Yeah, it just comes standard with silver underpants.
0:14:39Somebody over in Cupertino should have stretched a pair of silver underpants over the airport
0:14:45extreme in the airport, so that couldn't be killed because a report from the man who has
0:14:51been on fire since he joined Bloomberg, Mr. Mark Gurman, he has said today that the wireless
0:15:00division, the router division, I don't even know what you'd call it, over at Apple.
0:15:04To make Airport Extreme and Airport Express and Time Machine, basically, or Time Capsule.
0:15:11Time Capsule.
0:15:12I mean, the difficult to remember the name of Time Capsule. That they've shut that down,
0:15:19disbanded the team, and presumably won't be making any more wireless router products.
0:15:25They said that the team has been kind of slowly being closed down over the last year, and
0:15:32moving these people into like Apple TV and iPhone and they're just moving them out into
0:15:36other divisions. This product is dead. They're still on sale though, right? Like I can still
0:15:41today go to Apple.com and buy an airport for my sins I guess. Let me go and take a look
0:15:48and see if it's still available in the accessories. But whilst I do this, Jason's now, is this
0:15:54an issue in any way? Yes, I can still buy an airport extreme and a time capsule if I
0:15:58I want to. Do you see this as a problem?
0:16:04I don't. I don't. I know there's a lot of people out there. Any time Apple does anything,
0:16:10there's a reaction and it's sort of like, people are like, "I can't believe they're
0:16:13doing this!" That seems to just happen every time. But I don't think it's a big deal. Does
0:16:20Apple need to be in this business? This is the thing that I keep coming back to with
0:16:23some of this stuff. It's like, does Apple really need to be in this business? Now, I
0:16:28will grant you that I think in the long run, the airport products have been pretty reliable.
0:16:36I still have a generation of prior airport base station that I have been using up until
0:16:45recently when I switched to another class of product, which we'll get to in a second.
0:16:49I've been using it. It was solid. It held a connection. I bought other Wi-Fi routers.
0:16:54They have been much less reliable as well as harder to set up. When I needed to set
0:17:00up a Wi-Fi router at my mom's house, I got her an Apple router because it was more reliable
0:17:07than the one that she had, and it has continued to be so. So there are a lot of things to
0:17:11be said for it, but it's kind of, I mean, they're competing with companies that want
0:17:16to make routers that specialize in making routers. Does an Apple-branded router bring
0:17:23a lot more to the table? There are some people who are going to buy it, but at this point,
0:17:28I don't know. I wasn't a big fan, I should disclose, of the last generation, the tall
0:17:33design that was basically designed so that they could fit the big hard drive in it for
0:17:38the time capsule. I thought it looked ridiculous. I never liked it, never bought one. But, you
0:17:44know, I don't know. It's one of those things I just have a hard time being upset about
0:17:49because although they've been pretty good and they've been pretty reliable, it feels
0:17:53like the Wi-Fi world keeps changing and advancing and that Apple reached a point where they
0:18:00were going to need to either put more effort into these products or just walk away. And
0:18:05I can really see the argument, like, why are we doing this? There is a thriving market
0:18:10of companies, traditional and startups, that are making Wi-Fi products and other infrastructure
0:18:16products. Is this something that we need to go down in order to make the world better?
0:18:20They're all compatible with our stuff. We don't need to worry about this. And that seems
0:18:24to be where they've ended up. And it's hard for me to fault that.
0:18:27I think in the world where Apple have decided that they don't want to make monitors anymore,
0:18:32why would they continue to make Wi-Fi base stations and routers? That seems like a less
0:18:39important product even than making a first-party display.
0:18:43I agree, I agree. And I just, I don't feel like it, I mean, the argument here is also
0:18:50Apple, what do you mean Apple's got all this money, Apple's huge, why do they need to focus,
0:18:55why do they need to eliminate jobs and divisions and move people around and things like that.
0:18:59There are other things that they've done this week that we'll talk about later about this
0:19:02too, but Apple isn't as big as you think, first off. It's big in terms of size, but
0:19:06Apple in terms of the core group that's building products is smaller than you might expect.
0:19:12And they seem culturally not to want to get much bigger. They are, and I think that stems
0:19:17from Steve Jobs and when he came back to Apple, that they want to, you know, hiring at Apple
0:19:24is a slow process a lot of the time. They only want to hire, they definitely seem to
0:19:28practice that, only hire the very best and they're very careful about that, it seems,
0:19:38and so they don't grow their groups very quickly. So part of this is that, yeah, I'm sure that
0:19:46they benefit from focus. Also, I think groups that are not in the spotlight tend to not
0:19:51have the... if you're somebody who wants to grow and advance at Apple, if you get put
0:19:59on something like Airport, my guess is your feeling is that you're in a cul-de-sac, right?
0:20:04So they're not going to have their best people working on this stuff anyway, whereas if you're
0:20:07at a company that this is what you do, you're going to hire people who are the best and
0:20:12they're going to know that this is what the company is all about. So I think that there's
0:20:15a bunch of stuff at play here, so that even though Apple is a huge company, it kind of
0:20:20sense to say this is just isn't a company focus why are we doing this we don't need
0:20:23to do this.
0:20:24Or on the flip side of that you know because we don't know who's on the airport team they
0:20:28could have people that are too good that are working on that team and want to get them
0:20:33out you know like the airport people could be the best in the world at selling and networking
0:20:39and they really want them on the iPhone.
0:20:41Well that's why the slowly tearing down the team thing makes sense because that's like
0:20:45hey, Billy is over there in the airport team
0:20:49and we need them to come over here
0:20:51and work on this thing for iOS.
0:20:54Like, and Billy's like, yeah, great, iOS engineering,
0:20:58that's awesome, right?
0:20:59And then they've just lost somebody from their team
0:21:01and it just goes like that until it's a skeleton crew.
0:21:04And then they, somebody says, do we wanna staff this up
0:21:07in order to do another revision?
0:21:09And everybody looks at it and goes, no, why?
0:21:11And that's it.
0:21:12Billy's doing such good work on the antenna bands.
0:21:16Why would we take him away and put him back
0:21:17on the airport extreme?
0:21:19- Exactly.
0:21:20- Yeah, I struggle to care about this emotionally
0:21:25because I've never been invested in these products.
0:21:30I tend to just use what my provider gives me
0:21:35and in the UK, the hardware that we get given
0:21:38from our providers is actually pretty good stuff.
0:21:42it tends to be, not always, but like,
0:21:43where there's some proprietary stuff that they make,
0:21:45but it tends to be pretty good.
0:21:47- You make a good point in the US too,
0:21:50like cable modems now tend to come with WiFi,
0:21:53and we can, nerds especially, can be like,
0:21:55I don't use it, I turned it off,
0:21:57and I've got another router that I'm using,
0:21:59but you know, that's us.
0:22:01I think for the vast bulk of people,
0:22:03like you get WiFi with your router, that's it, right?
0:22:07You're done, you don't need anything more.
0:22:09- 'Cause I once owned an airport,
0:22:11I think the Express, the one that just was a plug,
0:22:14you just plugged it directly into the wall.
0:22:16And I owned that because my router
0:22:17didn't have Wi-Fi enabled.
0:22:19- Right.
0:22:20- That's why these products first started to exist.
0:22:23But now, as you say, that's not needed.
0:22:26- Apple had to make these products
0:22:27because there was a need for them.
0:22:30Like they needed to exist and they didn't exist.
0:22:32And that's just not true anymore.
0:22:34- But I do have a question though.
0:22:36This clearly seems like Apple is taking their time right now
0:22:40to pull back from some areas
0:22:41that they're not interested in anymore.
0:22:44And they're using those resources in other areas.
0:22:47I know that some of this stuff can upset people.
0:22:50I think for me, I see it as a positive
0:22:52because there are things in Apple's product line right now
0:22:55that I agree need work on.
0:22:57So I would like to see Apple stopping to care
0:23:01about these periphery things
0:23:03and putting more focus on these products, right?
0:23:06I would love to see more work done on the Mac.
0:23:08would love to see more work on the iPad. So taking talented people and putting them in
0:23:13other areas, that's a big thumbs up for me. But I can't understand why Apple still sell
0:23:18iPods.
0:23:19Tim Cynova Well, Dan Morin posted a link today to a Mac
0:23:25World story he wrote a little while ago, which was, "Apple products that need love." It was
0:23:32like displays and airport and the iPod Touch. And he's like, "Umm..." It's like, do they
0:23:43come in threes? And iPod, obviously, like the regular iPods too, they sell enough. Here's
0:23:49the thing. Those aren't ever... iPod Touch we could talk about, right? Because that requires
0:23:54iOS versions and all of that. And there are some arguments to be made there either way.
0:23:58But the iPods, the music players, they're at the end of their life, right? There's no
0:24:02development going on for those anymore. They are never going to get updated, and they will
0:24:08make them until they can't sell them anymore. So I don't think there's any internal focus
0:24:14placed on a product like that, because literally everybody knows there's never going to be
0:24:20anything more. And you can say that because already the iPod is, I would argue, kind of
0:24:27irrelevant, right? Because like, iPods can't do Apple Music. So they're already irrelevant.
0:24:33They're already just a product that they sell because some people still want to buy them.
0:24:36But there will come a time when the cost of selling them, or the money made by selling
0:24:40them is more than the cost of making them, having production line up at all to make them.
0:24:49Are they going to run out of the parts for them potentially at some point? Right? At
0:24:53some point it'll balance off and I don't know when that'll be and they'll just say, "Okay,
0:24:57the time has come. Like when I mentioned a week or two ago about IDG looking at our magazines
0:25:02back in the day and saying, "Once they're not profitable, the jig is up. We're not going
0:25:06to keep them around out of ego." At some point, the balance sheet goes into the red and you
0:25:13say, "That's it. We're done." But I think there's no intellectual energy being expended
0:25:19on the iPod, right? Whereas with the airport, when you look at what Google is doing, what
0:25:25companies like Eero who is sponsoring, unrelated, sponsoring this episode. So we'll just try
0:25:31to keep those separate. But there's an investment in kind of rethinking Wi-Fi, setting up more
0:25:39intelligent kind of mesh networks where you've got multiple stations doing coverage in houses
0:25:44where that was always kind of harder to do and now they're trying to make that easier
0:25:48for people to buy two packs or three packs of routers and you plug one in at the base
0:25:53and you plug a couple other in, they talk to each other, they configure, it's like,
0:25:57it's really good and much better as an experience than Wi-Fi has been up to now and much easier
0:26:02to set up. All of these reasons for that. And you're Apple and you're like, "Are we
0:26:06going to play that game?" No, we're not. It's fine. Other people are going to play that
0:26:10game. And you know, I, that's that question is always, are we going to have to spend more
0:26:15mental energy on this or aren't we? And the iPod is easy because as long as it pencils
0:26:20out there's no, you know, is there anybody, is there literally anybody looking at iPod
0:26:26software, firmware, hardware, anything? I don't think so.
0:26:29But that's, I agree with that, but was anybody doing that with the airport? But I still found,
0:26:35they're still potentially finding the need to kill this.
0:26:38Well they were still releasing like software updates for it every now and then. That was,
0:26:42that was a thing that was happening. And I do wonder again if there was an impetus here
0:26:46where they realized that beyond a certain point they were going to have to keep releasing
0:26:51software updates, you know, maybe they keep it on a maintenance mode for a certain amount
0:26:55of time, I don't know. I mean, you do wonder if there's that moment where they're like,
0:26:59"Oh, yeah, we need to choose now if this is going to be an ongoing concern or not." And
0:27:04we choose not.
0:27:06So the upgrade podcast from Real AFM decrees that it is not an issue.
0:27:11Yeah I guess, I mean, I feel for people who love these things and are sad that they're
0:27:15not going to continue, but I really feel like there's a lot of progress being made on other
0:27:19fronts here and that there are going to be other options that are going to be better
0:27:23and that for most people, probably the, you know, you get your router out of the box from
0:27:29your provider that has wifi and then you also have these other companies that are trying
0:27:34to build more robust mesh kind of networks for people who want that kind of thing. And
0:27:40do we need, do we need Apple in that game? Maybe it would be nice if they were there,
0:27:44Apple doesn't think it's particularly, you know, important that they be there.
0:27:48No, I, I, I endorse that.
0:27:51I just want to take a moment to touch on the "Design by Apple in California" book.
0:27:55Yes, yes, that was, that, that happened after our, after our show last week, so we
0:28:00didn't get a chance to talk about it here.
0:28:02I feel like there's a slight tie in here, um, because a lot of people are looking at
0:28:07this and I completely understand why, it's like, are Apple putting their focus on the
0:28:12right places right now, you know? Is it worth putting time and effort into creating a book
0:28:19chronicling the last 20 years of Apple design when the MacBook Pro is over a thousand days
0:28:24without a refresh, right? Like, I can see the idea of that for people's…
0:28:30Only the people involved in page layout, photography, and paper were instead designing the interior
0:28:36components of a Mac Pro. If only they had been retasked.
0:28:40I agree with you there mostly. There is definitely going to be some work expounded by the designers
0:28:47but I do agree. I don't think that this is saying that Apple are not putting their focus
0:28:55in the right places. I think that there is a nugget of something here which I'm struggling
0:29:01to land on which I think is a PR issue. I don't think this was the right time for this
0:29:08book to come out. So let me, in terms of the people, not only
0:29:13yes, the people who make a book are not the same people who engineer a product, and I
0:29:17think it's different, but I think if I had to guess internally how this worked at Apple,
0:29:21they've been collecting this archive for years, they want to have an archive of their old
0:29:24products for various reasons, not just for the book. They didn't call Stephen Hackett,
0:29:28I don't know what was up with that, they bought these products. You know what probably happened
0:29:34is that they brought some people on on a contract for six months and paid them to make this
0:29:40book and you know they contracted with a photographer and they contracted with a designer and they
0:29:45had some meetings where Johnny Ive or some other designers said here's what we'd like
0:29:49the book to be and then they paid you know they paid people to do it.
0:29:52And then there were sign-offs and etc etc. It's self-published but I really doubt they
0:29:56retasked key members of any team anywhere to work on this book. By far the most likely
0:30:02thing is they brought people in on a six month contract or something to build this book and
0:30:05paid them, wrote a check and did some interviews and did a couple of, you know, did some product
0:30:10management passes and some, you know, let's look at the page designs and are they looking
0:30:15okay and it was not, you know, I think this is a like write a check kind of a transaction
0:30:21with a little bit of oversight here after having collected the, so I think you could
0:30:25overstate the amount of effort that was put into this by anybody who has any effect on
0:30:29Apple's products and design really, really, I think it's very easy to overstate that.
0:30:36I think it wasn't a big deal. Now, to your point, right, you would say right now, given
0:30:42all the other things that are going on in the hubbub around all these other things at
0:30:45Apple, do you want to choose this time to release an introspective self-congratulatory
0:30:53product?
0:30:54Who is this book for? Who are they selling it to? Us. Right? They are selling it to the
0:31:03people that love Apple the most. The people that spend hours a week talking about or listening
0:31:10about or writing about or reading about these products. Apple must know that there is a
0:31:16little bit of unrest in that community right now. Right? They're not stupid. That's why
0:31:22they discounted dongles, right? Like, they're very aware of this.
0:31:26Sorry, I had to laugh at thinking of, wait, you mean that there's unrest in the community
0:31:33that Apple made unhappy by prioritizing other things over them? That seems like exactly
0:31:39consistent behavior, right? Like, they didn't care before, why would they care now? I don't
0:31:46know. It's, it's, you're, you're, I'm not sure there's ever a good time to do
0:31:51something like this. I was on the talk show last week and Gruber and I talked
0:31:56about this a bit and you find that in somewhere an hour or two. It was a long
0:32:02conversation and, and I feel like what John suggested is they could have used a
0:32:10a coffee table book publisher of Renown as a front? Like, not even necessarily given
0:32:18up any control over it, but they could have used the publisher as a front to say, "Oh,
0:32:24they're publishing it, we're not." But Apple's like, "Nope, we're publishing it, it's all
0:32:28us, we think we're great, here is this photo book of all of our stuff." And they didn't
0:32:33do that either. But, you know, was there ever going to be a good time to do it? This seems
0:32:39like, I feel like they wanted this out for the holidays because they know that there
0:32:42are people who are big fans of Apple who will buy this as a, you know, as a holiday gift
0:32:47and it costs a ridiculous amount of money, but a lot of coffee table book kind of art
0:32:52book stuff, a lot of them cost what we would perceive as a ridiculous amount of money because
0:32:56that's how those kinds of things are often priced. I don't know. Myke, the thing that
0:33:02baffles me the most about this book is that it's just pictures of old hardware, that there's
0:33:07literally no insight into--John Saracusa talked about this on ATP last week--there's no insight
0:33:12into what they did in detail. Like, apparently there's a booklet that comes with the book
0:33:17that's got some descriptive text, but that the book is basically just pictures, and,
0:33:22you know, if this is--why? Like, literally anyone could make this book, and many have.
0:33:30Why did Apple make a book that is literally just pictures of Apple hardware that is publicly
0:33:38available and that anyone can amass a collection of, including Steven Hackett, and that there
0:33:42are other books about this? That's the part that actually baffles me, because that's
0:33:48somebody saying, "Well, other people can do it, but we want our own." And that's
0:33:55what I keep coming back to, is what this really feels like is the industrial design group
0:33:59wanted a yearbook. They wanted a collection of their work so that they would have it.
0:34:05At some point, somebody said, "Well, why don't we just sell it? Why just make it for us? I'll give
0:34:12you the money to build this book, but why don't we recoup some of that by selling it at Apple
0:34:17stores too?" Somebody's like, "All right, let's do that." But it feels very much like this is
0:34:23somebody, you know, the Industrial Design Group wanted a pretty thing to put, you know,
0:34:29to take with them.
0:34:30Is this an example of Johnny I's power? Has he been able to just say, "We're making
0:34:36this book and the book is made"?
0:34:37Yeah, I mean, there may be multiple steps there, but my guess is that he or somebody
0:34:41else in his group was a proponent of this, and like I said, my theory is that they wanted
0:34:46to make this for themselves, and then a series of decisions was made that led to it being,
0:34:51well, maybe other people want it.
0:34:52Well, maybe we should sell it publicly
0:34:53'cause we can make some money that way
0:34:55and let fans and people who appreciate our great work do it.
0:34:58I don't think it started as,
0:34:59what we need to do is make a photo book
0:35:01so that the masses can appreciate our,
0:35:03I don't think it came from that direction.
0:35:05But sure, I doubt that, I mean, who else could do,
0:35:09who else could kick off a project like this, right?
0:35:13- Yeah.
0:35:13- But Johnny I, but I do feel like it was very much,
0:35:16we're proud of the hardware work we've done
0:35:18and we wanna have something that, you know,
0:35:20we don't think that the existing books about our work really tell the story, or we've been
0:35:25building this archive for eight years, we'd like to document it, and then it sort of snowballs
0:35:29into this bigger project, is my guess.
0:35:33It does frustrate me that there's no iBooks version of this, for a couple of reasons.
0:35:38One, so people that want to enjoy this stuff don't have to pay $200 for it. And also, two,
0:35:45This is a multimedia-rich platform that they could have used to create.
0:35:51You could have put videos in there, they could have put narration in there.
0:35:54They could have made a really interesting iBook out of this as well, like in complement
0:35:59to that maybe even you got for free if you bought the real big book.
0:36:03And that goes back to my theory that this project was always of a smaller scope and
0:36:09then it just sort of like expanded and nobody, I mean, I've seen that happen in lots of different
0:36:14areas where you start with something small and it expands without anybody saying, "Wait
0:36:19a second. If we're going to expand this, maybe we should expand the scope of it." It's like,
0:36:22"Well, no, no, no. The argument is no, that doesn't work. We don't want to spend too much
0:36:26time on it. We're just going to do what we're going to do. And if you want to sell it, you
0:36:29can sell it." And nobody stopped to say, "Well, wouldn't this be a great iBook that we could
0:36:34build and we could throw in videos and we could throw in other things?" It's like, "No,
0:36:38The whole goal here was just to have a beautiful photography book on custom paper.
0:36:46But then they released a big press release about it, which is like, "Ugh!"
0:36:50That's where it kind of ties together into a bit of a mess, I think.
0:36:53Yeah, I mean, I agree that the optics of it are weird, but I don't know.
0:36:59What I said on the talk show, I'll say here, which is, I feel like how people react to
0:37:03this book is a way to peer into how people feel about Apple right now. I feel like that's
0:37:11what this is. This is an inkblot test kind of thing, which is if you are inclined to
0:37:16believe that Apple is rotting and doesn't know what it's doing, then you can point to
0:37:22this and say, "See? This is proof." And if you think that Apple's fine and people get
0:37:28freaked out about things that they shouldn't worry about, you can point to this and be
0:37:32like it's not a big deal. And so I guess that's why I'm kind of lukewarm on the whole thing,
0:37:38other than being disappointed because it seems like a huge missed opportunity not to actually
0:37:41tell the story of Apple design in some way and instead just show pictures that anybody
0:37:46can make a book and has showing pictures of these products. Beyond that, really all I
0:37:51have to do is sort of shrug and say it's not that big a thing and people who want to use
0:37:57it as evidence of something are doing it not because they originally thought everything
0:38:03was fine but because they already were worried about it and this buttresses their case. It
0:38:08seems very much like an inkblot test to me.
0:38:13My overall feeling is I'm not annoyed that the book exists, I'm annoyed at how they priced
0:38:17it and I'm annoyed at the time that they chose to introduce it. I just think that it shows
0:38:23a little bit of either arrogance or blindness to the people that they're
0:38:29trying to sell this to which is Apple but it still can be annoying. I guess I
0:38:34think I think those of us in our our Apple focus bubble can get can think of
0:38:41the situation as being more extreme than it actually is. Sure but you know I right
0:38:46you know we're the most likely audience to buy a book like this and I think
0:38:50must know that. However, after watching Stephen's video where he was able to line up the book
0:38:56with his own actual Apple collection, I do want the book. I honestly do want it. I'm
0:39:01a huge Apple fan. This book is for me. I want it. I want to look at the pictures. And with
0:39:07the holiday season coming up, maybe it will appear in my stocking and I'll be very happy
0:39:11to receive it.
0:39:12That's a big stocking.
0:39:13It's a big stocking. But this is the type of thing that I know that I would enjoy. I'm
0:39:18not annoyed that the book exists I just think that it could have been done better and I
0:39:23really wish that they would have had an iBook version so more people could enjoy it I think.
0:39:28That I think that's the thing that frustrates me the most it's like you can enjoy our photos
0:39:33if you pay us multiple hundreds of dollars to do so.
0:39:36So, hey ho, this episode is brought to you by Eero. These days everything in our homes
0:39:42requires an internet connection, our speakers, thermostats, light bulbs, front door locks,
0:39:46security cameras, everything in between. And we're increasingly looking at streaming services
0:39:50like Netflix, Hulu and Spotify for our home entertainment. I know this as I'm collecting
0:39:54up items to buy for the new home, just seeing how many of these things need Wi-Fi to make
0:39:59them work. It is the foundation for all of the stuff that we need these days and we are
0:40:03totally dependent on it. I have no Wi-Fi at all in my new flat right now and it is a sad
0:40:09place to be at times. It's funny to see just how intrinsic it is to our everyday lives.
0:40:15funnily enough wifi is broken. So imagine going into a room in your house and plugging
0:40:21in your iPhone into a socket in the corner of the room and a notification pops up and
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0:40:28the electric meter. It doesn't make any sense right? It doesn't make any sense, electricity
0:40:32flows everywhere it's fine. But this isn't the norm for wifi. If you're too far away
0:40:36from your wifi base station or your router you can get dead zones, you're going to have
0:40:40buffering issues. To get the best connection today you need a distributed system that can
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0:40:59you download the Eero app on your iOS device, it'll walk you through the setup, and then
0:41:02your whole home is blanketed in great Wi-Fi. Now Jason, I know that you have some Eero
0:41:07at home.
0:41:08JASON WARNKE I do. In fact, it's funny you're talking about the importance of Wi-Fi. I currently
0:41:12have 23 devices on my network. So that is how much we rely on Wi-Fi. That's iPads and
0:41:22iPhones and Macs and printers and smart home devices, all sorts of things that are on that
0:41:28Wi-Fi.
0:41:29And how easy was it to set up the Eero?
0:41:33Oh, it was surprisingly easy. I plugged them in. I actually have wired locations in my
0:41:41house where I had other base stations at some point. So I was able to attach it in three
0:41:47different places in my house with wires, although one of them didn't originally have that. And
0:41:52it didn't really matter because what happens is you get the Eero plugged in and going and
0:41:56then you add other, I got a three-pack, and you add other Eero stations and they talk
0:42:03to each other and they connect with each other. So whether they're wired together or whether
0:42:07they're just using the wireless mesh network to talk, they configure each other. And this
0:42:12is something I was mentioning earlier when we were talking about the airport, that getting
0:42:16base stations to work together seamlessly is actually kind of hard to do with traditional
0:42:23stuff. And this new generation of wireless base stations is much better at it. And it's
0:42:27good because, you know, in a lot of situations you need more than one to get your coverage
0:42:32to be solid. Even my house isn't very large, but if I put the wireless base station in
0:42:39the front room, then the bedroom's Wi-Fi was poor. That was bottom line, it just wasn't
0:42:46good enough. And so instead I just plugged these things in and ran through the very simple
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0:43:25upgrade at checkout.
0:43:41So there is some news this week that came out that a man by the name of Sal Sogoin has
0:43:47left Apple.
0:43:49Now I am sure that there are people that leave Apple of their own accord or are pushed out
0:43:54the door every day, but it usually never meets us. It's very rare that we hear about a departure
0:44:02from a non-executive, right? The executive leaves, we all know about it. But maybe we'd
0:44:08hesitate to say a rank and file member of Apple, somebody who maybe is a team leader
0:44:12or works within a team, they leave, we don't hear anything. Who is Sal Seguian? What did
0:44:16he do at Apple and why is it important that he's no longer there?
0:44:20So, Sal was the product manager of Automation Technologies, which he announced at the Mac
0:44:26Tech Conference where he was speaking that his position was eliminated for business reasons,
0:44:31which is, that's basically Apple code for services no longer required, right? That was,
0:44:38he was, he was, he was told to leave. Sal's history at Apple goes back a very long way,
0:44:46into the OS 9 days. The first time I ever saw Sal was at a WWDC in the 90s where he
0:44:51was not working at Apple, and he was demoing AppleScript support in QuarkXPress, and basically
0:44:59he was a consultant and he was working for a publishing company, a newspaper company,
0:45:03and they had a database of all their classified ads, and he built a script that queried the
0:45:09database and laid out their classified ad page automatically, which you have to, I mean,
0:45:15have to see it in that context, it was mind-blowing. Like, literally an entire page of the newspaper
0:45:22was made in seconds by this script. And that was--he was and is a great demo guy. He always
0:45:32had a session at WWDC. Apple hired him to be their scripting and automation guy, basically,
0:45:40inside Apple. And he was a pretty high profile, he is a gregarious guy, you get to know him,
0:45:46he's a nice guy, he was very visible, and I think, you know, I'm unclear on all the
0:45:54details of how the inner workings of Apple work. He had a team, he was the product manager,
0:46:03the funding and access that his team got is an open question, how much he got to direct,
0:46:10what the direction that this stuff went versus what was sort of dictated to them from the
0:46:15OS people I think is open to discussion. And I would say that his tenure is not without
0:46:20things that we can criticize about it. There are definitely some things that maybe didn't
0:46:24work as well as they could have, but I also got the distinct impression that he didn't
0:46:29have a whole lot of support within Apple for their stuff. Like they did Automator, which
0:46:34was back in like OS 10.4, I think. It was a long time ago. And then they did some script
0:46:42bridge stuff so that you could get access with JavaScript to scripting. They did some
0:46:48things, but it's been pretty limited over time. And I think I got into a Twitter back
0:46:53and forth with somebody who was saying, you know, they haven't shipped anything interesting.
0:46:57And my understanding is they haven't shipped anything interesting because they had no support
0:47:00within Apple. So I think for me the question was in some ways, how is this able to go on
0:47:06for so long where Apple's OS group didn't seem to care about what Sal and his team were
0:47:13doing and yet they remained to kind of twist in the wind. I wonder about that, but I just
0:47:18I don't know enough about the inside details to say.
0:47:22- Sal has always been something I've been aware of,
0:47:25maybe over my last kind of 10 years,
0:47:27or maybe 10, 15 years,
0:47:29I've been interested in Apple products significantly.
0:47:32'Cause I've seen him.
0:47:33You know, I remember episodes of the old MacBreak video show
0:47:38with Sal Seguin as a guest whilst employed by Apple.
0:47:42I know that he gives talks whilst employed by Apple.
0:47:44He has his own website.
0:47:46- Multiple websites about OS features that he generates
0:47:50that are not hosted by Apple,
0:47:52but look like Apple websites sort of, and for years.
0:47:56So he's definitely been playing by a different book
0:47:58than most. - Right.
0:48:00This is the stuff that Apple people can do.
0:48:03And I wonder, maybe you could provide
0:48:04a bit of context on this.
0:48:06Is he kind of a hangover from the days of the evangelists?
0:48:10- Well, I'd say he definitely feels evangelist-y
0:48:15in a way that you don't see very much of anymore
0:48:18in the broader world. I think there's something to that. And the fact that he was given free
0:48:24reign, I think the fact that he was given sort of free reign for some of this stuff
0:48:27also speaks to Apple's lack of interest in it. Like, it wasn't important enough to not
0:48:33have him doing it, and he was just kind of evangelizing their technologies. I definitely
0:48:38felt, the sense I always got from Sal about Apple stuff was that Sal was counting on us,
0:48:45press and the users to send the message that the stuff that he was doing was cool and should
0:48:52continue because the, you know, the implication there was because he and his team couldn't
0:48:59do it. Like they, they were making the case and that was just not going to do it, that
0:49:04we needed to make noise for it to continue. In fact, you know, back in the day, there
0:49:08was a question about whether Apple script was going to make it into a OS 10. And it's
0:49:14because if you think about the darkest days of Apple, there was a while there where one
0:49:18of the reasons, one of the main reasons publishers didn't switch to Windows was that they had
0:49:23all these AppleScript automation things that had been built to ease their production systems
0:49:30and they didn't translate to Windows and so it kept them on the Mac in the darkest of
0:49:35the days. So in the end, AppleScript did come to OS X and they did introduce Automator in
0:49:42and for. But yeah, it's a, I don't know, it was a different time and it was never a huge
0:49:50priority for him and he was always a good spokesman, so he did end up being kind of
0:49:53an evangelist and they didn't seem to put the clamps on him either. So yeah, you know,
0:50:03it's interesting to ask why now and why not sooner and maybe this is all part of a thing,
0:50:09go back to the airport stuff, maybe this is the end of 2016 reckoning where Apple is doing
0:50:19some reorg and getting rid of more old stuff that they don't think they need to have around
0:50:26anymore. Maybe that's the thought process here.
0:50:28**Beserat Debele
0:50:28(laughing)
0:50:30Right?
0:50:30I mean, I think Sal is great, but does Apple care?
0:50:35I mean, this is the question.
0:50:37It's like if Apple doesn't really care
0:50:38and all that he and his group do is they are underfunded,
0:50:42under-resourced, and make trouble
0:50:45because they don't agree. - That's exactly
0:50:46what I was gonna say.
0:50:47Well, I would assume that inside of Apple,
0:50:49I mean, I know nothing, that all Sal and his team
0:50:53are troublemakers now because they're not able
0:50:55to do anything else.
0:50:56- Yeah, sure.
0:50:57They have no leeway, they have no budget to actually do anything.
0:51:01I think that shows in the fact that this isn't really a thing that is spoken about in Apple
0:51:04Script anymore.
0:51:05So I'm sure all they do is just try and be involved and they're just seen as troublemakers.
0:51:10And they bug everybody who's building an app internally, I'm sure gets bugged by, or got
0:51:15bugged by Sal and his team about like, "Are you doing scriptability?
0:51:20Is pages scriptable?
0:51:21Is numbers scriptable?
0:51:22Why isn't it scriptable?
0:51:23You need to do that."
0:51:24Right?
0:51:25And that's probably annoying for people too.
0:51:26also a couple points. Because it's also possible that they wanted to go in a direction that
0:51:34this team doesn't want to go in or wasn't a good fit for. It's possible. And that's
0:51:40my optimism scenario that we can get to in a little bit. But I do want to say one thing
0:51:43about AppleScript because it's very easy to conflate Sal with AppleScript. He's the AppleScript
0:51:47guy. But AppleScript and automation is more than AppleScript and it's more than automator.
0:51:53a lot of stuff. It's hooks into, like I said, you could script apps on the Mac with languages
0:51:59that are a language that is not AppleScript. You could do with JavaScript. I think you
0:52:02can do it with a bunch of other scripting languages too. Um, and like I use automator
0:52:08stuff every day, but most of it is actually triggering shell scripts and automator exists
0:52:15to make it easy for me to connect those shell scripts with the, the Mac UI. So I don't have
0:52:21have to open a terminal window and type them. And some of them are Apple scripts and some
0:52:25of them are Apple scripts that build shell scripts and then run the shell scripts. So
0:52:28it's a bigger world. And I'm more concerned about Apple's platform having scriptability
0:52:39and access so that users can connect apps together in ways that the apps can't anticipate
0:52:46themselves separately and do other kind of automating of simple tasks in general as a
0:52:52concept than I am in preserving something like AppleScript. I mean, anybody who's used
0:52:56AppleScript will probably tell you that AppleScript is a kind of a mess and a pain to use. And
0:53:00I don't particularly love it. If somebody came to me and said, "We're vastly improving
0:53:04the scripting system in OS X," and maybe even like have something like that for iOS, but
0:53:09you're going to have to learn Swift, I'd say, "Great. Like, great. Great. Let's do it. Let's
0:53:15make it happen. So it's a bigger issue than like Apple Scripter Automator, which are not
0:53:21without their serious flaws.
0:53:24I think this might just be like this whole thing of automation and scripting. I just
0:53:29think it might be something that Apple just isn't interested in putting the time and effort
0:53:32into.
0:53:33Yep.
0:53:34And I think the key for that is that they haven't hired the workflow team.
0:53:38Well…
0:53:39The fact that workflow exists tells me that maybe they're not that interested in doing
0:53:44it themselves because if you were you just do just buy them.
0:53:48I think well I think workflow though so we're talking about the workflow app for iOS I think
0:53:53the argument could be and this is that my pessimistic scenario versus my optimistic
0:53:59scenario the argument could be that Apple doesn't need to make automation tools. Apple
0:54:04needs to make their platform have hooks basically have ways for automation tools for scripts
0:54:12to access the system.
0:54:15- That works for me, right?
0:54:17- Right, so that's the question.
0:54:19Now iOS automation works not because of Apple,
0:54:23but despite Apple.
0:54:24Like workflow is cool, X callback URL is a nice hack
0:54:29that developers have come up with,
0:54:31but Apple could have built a legitimate system
0:54:36of automation and inter-app communication for iOS
0:54:40and didn't bother.
0:54:42And that's the question and is poorer because of it.
0:54:44As great as, you know, and Federico and Fraser can talk
0:54:49on another podcast about how great automation stuff is
0:54:54with workflow on iOS.
0:54:56- As Canvas, you should check out their series, it's awesome.
0:54:58- It is Canvas, thank you.
0:55:00You should listen to that podcast.
0:55:03As great as it is, it could be so much better.
0:55:05It could be so much better and so much less
0:55:07of working around things in the system
0:55:09if Apple had a commitment to doing that.
0:55:13But my understanding, and talking to Sal over the years,
0:55:16was that iOS engineering, not even remotely interested.
0:55:21It was like a wall for the automation group.
0:55:23Like, nope, not just no, forget it.
0:55:26At which point you've got to say,
0:55:28the only reason the Mac had it
0:55:29is because it had it in the past,
0:55:31and that Apple has no concern about it moving forward,
0:55:33because if they cared about this kind of issue,
0:55:35maybe they would put it on iOS.
0:55:37You could argue, oh, well, the Mac is,
0:55:39is a platform for more finicky, fiddly stuff.
0:55:42And iOS is smooth and serene and for consumers more,
0:55:46although iPad Pro, what happens there?
0:55:49But I think that's the optimistic scenario I have
0:55:54is what if Apple does have a plan to make automation
0:56:00kind of more modern and tie into modern scripting languages
0:56:03or maybe even tie into Swift and use it as a kind of a ramp
0:56:07up, like you learn Swift and you can do automation in the system and then you can build an app
0:56:11and it's all part of a ramp up, or is, I think more evidence suggests that Apple just doesn't
0:56:17care and that they look at something like Workflow and instead of saying, "Wow, that's
0:56:21really amazing," they look at Workflow and say, "See, we don't need to do anything."
0:56:25Again, that works for me, right? Like I've never been an AppleScript person. I love Workflow.
0:56:32I've tried AppleScript. It never made any sense to me. Workflow makes sense to me.
0:56:36And no disagreement there.
0:56:38And Workflow does a better job of being Automator
0:56:40than Automator ever did.
0:56:42But Workflow still has some really weird things about it.
0:56:45And the access that Workflow has is limited by the fact
0:56:50that the way Apple has built iOS makes it hard.
0:56:54There's stuff you can't access.
0:56:55And I see this on the Mac too.
0:56:57Like there are apps that are not scriptable.
0:56:58And this is the thing, again, it isn't just Apple script.
0:57:01Like I use keyboard maestro for a lot of things
0:57:04and it's pretty great too.
0:57:05but there's stuff that, you know, in my Stroll,
0:57:07I end up having to like open a window,
0:57:10move the cursor, click on a button.
0:57:13And that's ridiculous, right?
0:57:14You should be able to have that,
0:57:16tell the app to set that setting.
0:57:20And in some apps you just can't do it.
0:57:23And you have to resort to kind of scripting the UI,
0:57:25which is kind of dumb.
0:57:27So that's my issue is I would be happy
0:57:29if Apple got out of the tools game,
0:57:34but had a little bit better of a commitment to opening access for the people who build the tools.
0:57:40But I'm not sure that's really what's happening here. My most likely scenario for me is that all
0:57:46the script stuff in the Mac is going to be in the same deep freeze where they keep dashboard.
0:57:51By the way, there's a dashboard button you can put on the control strip in the touch bar,
0:57:59which is hilarious. I hadn't even thought of that. I can't believe they made that.
0:58:03Yeah, you can put that in there. So if you like your 2016 future technology mixed with
0:58:08your technology from the previous decade, you can do it.
0:58:12I love that they took the dashboard key away from the keyboard, but now they've put it
0:58:16back in the touch bar.
0:58:17Well, the touch bar, if you want it, it's there. And I heard from somebody who said
0:58:21they use dashboard every day and never use AppleScript. And I was like, fair enough,
0:58:26to each their own. But yes, if you would like dashboard on the touch bar, you can make that
0:58:30happen. You crazy diamond.
0:58:31and shine on you.
0:58:33- Just carry on my wayward son.
0:58:35I feel like the theme of today's episode is
0:58:39Apple is killing some stuff.
0:58:41They are, they're moving away from certain areas.
0:58:45But I think we both think that that's okay.
0:58:49- Yeah, I would say it's okay, I think it's healthy
0:58:53for Apple to look at stuff and say,
0:58:55"We don't need to be doing this anymore."
0:58:57I think it's healthy for all of us to do that, right?
0:58:59What can we not do? What are we doing because we, many years ago, decided we would do it,
0:59:05and not because it would ever make any sense for us to do it? It's like what I said about the iPod,
0:59:09right? At some point you have that balance of like, well, maybe it's easier for me to keep
0:59:13doing it, but at some point it's not easier for you to keep doing it. The best thing to do is to
0:59:17stop, and then it's done, and then you get that time back, you get that money back, you get those
0:59:21people back, whatever it is. I think that's absolutely true. My question is, what comes next?
0:59:28What comes next? And in the case of the airport, maybe what comes next is other third-party
0:59:36stuff that's way better than the airport was, so why should Apple bother? In the case of
0:59:40scripting, this is my question of automation, is what comes next? Is this, we give up, we
0:59:46don't care anymore, nothing's going to be scriptable anymore, the system, you know,
0:59:50we just don't care. Or is it, actually what we want to do is something that's very different,
0:59:56we have an idea. Like we do care and we are going to make some changes there. And like
1:00:02I said, I think that's less likely, but it comes back to that as much as I feel for Sal
1:00:08and his team and as much as I have benefited from the work that they've done, if Apple
1:00:12has truly felt for years that it was a waste of time and money, they should have done this
1:00:19a long time ago. So why not do it now? Right? If they truly have no commitment to this,
1:00:25Why put up the false front, right? Why act like you do and cart out these poor people
1:00:33who are trying their best to advocate for their technology while knowing that they have
1:00:37no support internally for their technology? Why? Why do that? So on that level, it comes
1:00:43back to it's okay. Like, if you really don't want to do this, just say so. It's not you,
1:00:48it's me.
1:00:49- But we both will just underscore the point that,
1:00:52we're not happy to see people lose their jobs, of course.
1:00:56- No, no, and I hope that, and Sal lost his job.
1:00:59I hope that a lot of the people on his team,
1:01:02what I, the report I read was that it was disbanded.
1:01:06I don't know if that's actually accurate or not,
1:01:08but in a lot of cases, the technical people at Apple,
1:01:11they don't lose their jobs, they are transferred elsewhere.
1:01:14And that is, and it could have been, who knows,
1:01:17this could have been precipitated by key members of the team
1:01:20being pulled elsewhere,
1:01:21leaving them with nobody on their team
1:01:23and somebody saying, "Let's just pull the plug.
1:01:25Why would we staff this team back up?"
1:01:27- Let's get rid of the troublemaker and carry on.
1:01:30- That's right, possibly, possibly.
1:01:32And I think Sal, again, Sal was a fierce advocate
1:01:34for his stuff as any product manager should be.
1:01:37But I can see how that could be perceived
1:01:38inside an organization that doesn't care about his stuff
1:01:42as being a pain because, right, that was his job,
1:01:45to be a pain.
1:01:46if people aren't listening to him.
1:01:49So I don't know.
1:01:50I mean, I look at workflow on iOS and I think there's hope
1:01:54because somehow even in a cold unfeeling universe
1:01:57where Apple made no attempt to do automation of any kind,
1:02:01they found a way.
1:02:02Life, life finds a way.
1:02:04Sorry, I'm getting all Jurassic Park on you now.
1:02:07They found a way to do it with X callback URLs
1:02:09and other wacky stuff like that.
1:02:11They found a way to do that stuff
1:02:13and through share sheets and the sharing extension.
1:02:15So, you know, there's hope, there's hope,
1:02:18but I would love it if Apple would give the people out there
1:02:23who want to build that stuff the access to do it.
1:02:28For me, that's like, that's my bargaining right now,
1:02:31is Apple doesn't have to do it.
1:02:32Apple just has to make it accessible
1:02:36for other people to do the work and not shut them out
1:02:38and maybe give them some tools to do a better job with it.
1:02:41(phone ringing)
1:02:43Myke, this just in.
1:02:45After we recorded the entire episode, we've come back in time.
1:02:48It's like Back to the Future 2, Myke.
1:02:50Marty, I need your help.
1:02:54Craig has sent an email.
1:02:56So after we recorded, but before we finished talking on the live stream,
1:03:00Craig Federighi sent an email to somebody on the internet who reads 9to5 Mac.
1:03:07So 9to5 Mac posted a story about it.
1:03:09And basically the emailer said, Hey, I'm sad that you could let go, Sal.
1:03:14I like automation on the Mac.
1:03:16And Craig Federighi wrote back to them and said,
1:03:18"Hi, we have every intent to continue our support
1:03:22for the great automation technologies in macOS."
1:03:25You can hear Craig saying it.
1:03:26- You really can.
1:03:27- And do we think this is good news?
1:03:31My thought is continued support
1:03:34does not necessarily mean anything other than dashboard.
1:03:39Right?
1:03:42It continues to exist.
1:03:44Is there more to it?
1:03:45Am I being pessimistic and viewing it that way?
1:03:47It's great that Craig is reassuring somebody about it,
1:03:50but this is, you know, again,
1:03:52no talk about future product directions,
1:03:55but continuing our support is not anything
1:03:59other than keeping it alive, I think.
1:04:02- I think what this means at a minimum
1:04:04is that this is life support, right?
1:04:07They are at least confirming
1:04:09that automation is on life support at Apple.
1:04:11Best case scenario means that they have some other ideas
1:04:14that they wanna work on, and as we mentioned,
1:04:16Sal and his team didn't fit those ideas.
1:04:18But I think the fact that Federighi took the time
1:04:22to send those emails, they do this purposefully,
1:04:24they know these things are gonna get out there,
1:04:26I think it's a positive message.
1:04:27Because this isn't something worth giving
1:04:29a press release over.
1:04:30Like, the amount of people that actually care about this
1:04:33in the grand scheme of things for Apple
1:04:35to issue a press release, it's not worth their time.
1:04:37They don't have to do more explaining
1:04:40to try and explain what they're even talking about
1:04:42to the wider masses,
1:04:43then it would be worth doing the suppress release.
1:04:45This makes sense.
1:04:46They know this stuff's gonna get out there.
1:04:48This is just a confirmation from them, at least,
1:04:50that they have no intention of killing this support,
1:04:53which is, for people that use automation,
1:04:55is a good thing, is a good starting point.
1:04:57- All right, so basically, sort of where we were before,
1:05:01which is a little positive signal from Craig,
1:05:03but you can take it as being the optimistic view
1:05:06is they've got a plan and the pessimistic view is
1:05:08They're going to just let it sit there, but not really do much to it,
1:05:11which is what we thought before.
1:05:14Can't believe I came all the way back in time just for that.
1:05:16Anyway, I'm going to go back to the future, Myke.
1:05:18Using lasers. Here I go.
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1:06:37this show, Relay FM and this week's Ask Upgrade. Brent asked "Jason, which product have you
1:06:46been the most excited to get a review unit for in the last few years?"
1:06:52I don't know how to answer this question. I don't. I don't. Oh, the last few years.
1:07:01I don't know. I mean, I was really excited to get the iPad.
1:07:04I think that that might be my answer.
1:07:06- The original iPad?
1:07:08- Yeah, the iPhone, we didn't get really a review unit.
1:07:11We got it the day of with everybody else.
1:07:14The original iPad, I got a few days before.
1:07:16- I remember vividly your iPad review.
1:07:20You were sitting, I watched all the video parts
1:07:24that you did of it.
1:07:24You were sitting on a table by a window
1:07:27and you were doing all these series of videos
1:07:30showing what the iPad was capable of.
1:07:32Hmm.
1:07:33I remember it.
1:07:34There you go.
1:07:36I have no, I have no memory of that, but okay.
1:07:39Great.
1:07:39I'm glad it's vivid in your memory.
1:07:42That was a big, that was a big thing.
1:07:43The iPad, iPad release that we had been excited for that new product for a long
1:07:48time.
1:07:49And I got, I, you know, I got it, uh, like I said, a day or two before release.
1:07:54And, uh, that was pretty exciting to, to get that an entirely new Apple product.
1:07:58and I remember little bits of that. I remember writing the review, you know, over the weekend,
1:08:05sitting on my bed at home, churning out thousands of words and yeah, it was that I'd probably
1:08:12say that. That was probably the most exciting one.
1:08:15I wish I could find those videos. I can find your original review but I can't find the
1:08:21videos. I know that they existed. I'm almost certain of it. I have a very vivid memory
1:08:27of it but...
1:08:28It's possible those were Macworld videos that have now been horribly deprecated.
1:08:31It's entirely possible.
1:08:32If anybody finds them or remembers them, please write in #askupgrade and we'll
1:08:37find it and I can talk about it next week. I'm sure I have a vivid memory of this.
1:08:40Lucas asks, "On the MacBook Pro, is the Touch ID part of the Touch Bar
1:08:44an actual physical button? Does it click?"
1:08:48Yeah, yeah it does. It is a key basically. It's not shaped like the other
1:08:52keys but it is a key.
1:08:54you can push it down.
1:08:55And in fact, if you push, it's the power button.
1:08:57It is what we used to think of as the power button.
1:09:00Its behavior is very different now.
1:09:01If you hold it down for six, I wanna say seconds,
1:09:05it forces a reboot.
1:09:06And that's so that you've got a hardware,
1:09:09'cause you can't necessarily,
1:09:11if the touch bar doesn't work,
1:09:12you can't do kind of the old method
1:09:14of force rebooting a system,
1:09:16'cause that involved the escape key,
1:09:17which doesn't exist anymore.
1:09:18So you hold down that key for like six seconds
1:09:22and it just reboots.
1:09:23It's very much like the same hardware,
1:09:26hold down two buttons on the iPhone or iPad
1:09:29and have it reboot.
1:09:29- In the same kind of vein,
1:09:33Brent was interested to know if you have any idea
1:09:36if the Touch Bar has Generation 1 or 2 Touch ID.
1:09:40- I think those concepts are concepts
1:09:42very specifically related to iOS
1:09:44and don't have applicability on the Mac.
1:09:47There's no way for me to tell
1:09:48'cause I'd have to compare it to,
1:09:52previous touch ID on the Mac, which doesn't exist
1:09:54or compare it to iOS.
1:09:55So I don't think I have anything to say about that.
1:09:57I think it's touch ID,
1:09:59it's touch ID on the Mac is what it is.
1:10:02- Does it feel fast enough?
1:10:04- Yeah, again, yeah, it seems to react quickly,
1:10:10but it's a very different thing because it's a Mac,
1:10:13so it's unlocking.
1:10:14And so is that the Mac responding differently than iOS
1:10:18or with like one password unlocking?
1:10:21It's the same thing.
1:10:22to happen really fast. I would also say, this question was does the touch bar have? It is
1:10:27distinctly, it's on the touch bar row but it's not the touch bar. It is this distinct
1:10:31button to the right of the touch bar. So I think it would be inaccurate to say the touch
1:10:35bar has touch ID. There's a row that's got the touch bar and touch ID sensor in it, but
1:10:42the touch ID sensor is next to the touch bar, it's not the touch bar.
1:10:46I really do have a sneaking suspicion that it was supposed to be, but they couldn't get
1:10:50it to work. My theory is it was supposed to be part of the bar with the idea of that being
1:10:57the same technology that would implant a touch ID sensor inside of the screen, and I don't
1:11:04think they've been able to do it.
1:11:07That would be new tech, and instead they went with... I mean, this solves the other problem
1:11:11of having a physical reset button on the computer, too. But yeah, I know. There's a lot of interesting
1:11:18things that if only they release a book explaining their reasoning but all we get is a picture
1:11:23of the touch bar.
1:11:25Interesting question from Kyle, "What is the current biggest factor that makes a Mac feel
1:11:30fast?" What is the most important part there, Jason?
1:11:34SSD. Storage, storage, storage, storage is the answer.
1:11:37Interesting.
1:11:38That's it. That's number one. Like if you--use a Mac with a spinning hard drive and no fusion
1:11:44drive and then go to a fusion driver or an SS and then go to an SSD you know at
1:11:48the end of it I did this with a Mac Mini that my Mac Mini that's five years old
1:11:52now it was a spinning drive and I I took it apart and put in an SSD and it's like
1:11:56a completely new computer if you've if you've used if you've been on an SSD for
1:12:00a while and you haven't used a computer with a spinning disk go back and try
1:12:03that it is horrific like it is it is that is the constraint on so many things
1:12:11now of computer usability is the responsiveness of the storage. I feel
1:12:17like that is the big bottleneck right now. If you're already using an SSD like
1:12:21say you're on an SSD MacBook Pro and you're getting a new MacBook Pro what
1:12:24would be the thing there would it be like the processor maybe? Maybe. I guess
1:12:27the jumps aren't as big right? Yeah the jumps aren't as big I feel like that was
1:12:31the that was the big jump was going to SSD because it's just so much more
1:12:36responsive and you know the newer SSD is even faster. I don't even remember it
1:12:40like I you know I know that I did it but like I have no memory of how slow it was
1:12:44before I bet you're right if I went to something like that I would rip my hair
1:12:48out yeah another question about the new mac pro what does the function key do on
1:12:55the MacBook Pro with touch bar it makes the top row of the touch bar turn into a
1:13:02function row so you get f1 f2 f3 etc yep that's what it does and you can also go
1:13:08into the keyboard system preferences and actually apply, you can add apps that inherit the F
1:13:18keys automatically. So like if there's an app that you have that you really need the
1:13:23function keys, you can actually go into system prefs and drag that app in and then it will
1:13:27always just show the F keys there. And then I think if you want to see the touch bar,
1:13:31you hit the F key and it toggles it back. But yeah, that's what the FN key does is flip
1:13:37you over into classic F-key mode.
1:13:40And lastly, I'm wanting to know, what do we want to see in the next iPad Pro? Now I have
1:13:46a list here. This has been a very JSON-focused Ask Upgrade now, so I'm going to take the
1:13:52lead on this one. So I would like to see True Tone across the line. So the 12.9 inch gets
1:13:57True Tone, because True Tone is for me as good as Retina was.
1:14:03You gotta have it.
1:14:04You gotta have it.
1:14:05The inconsistency, I mean, we could broaden that and say the inconsistency between the
1:14:099.7 and the 12.9 must go away.
1:14:13- Yeah, 9.7 should get fast charging and all that stuff.
1:14:17That stuff needs to go.
1:14:18But yeah, but true tone on the 12.9 is imperative at this point.
1:14:22I'm upset that it's not on my iPhone as well, but it's a story for another day.
1:14:27I want the iPad Pros, both of them, to be lighter and thinner because they are products
1:14:31that should and can still be lighter and thinner, right?
1:14:35The 12.9 is too heavy.
1:14:37If that was lighter, that would be awesome.
1:14:39I don't need my iPhones to do that,
1:14:41but I do want my iPads to continue doing that.
1:14:43And then outside of that, you get the usual.
1:14:47Faster, more OS stuff, all of that.
1:14:52But iPad Pro is not just the iPad.
1:14:54iPad Pro is the accessories as well.
1:14:57So I want to see enhancements there.
1:14:59I want a pencil 2 that has a better battery life because considering Apple have embraced
1:15:06the people like me who like to use the pencil a lot more than intended, right, the battery
1:15:11isn't good enough.
1:15:13So I want to see a better battery life in there.
1:15:17And I would also like there to be a button of some kind which apps could take advantage
1:15:20of in some way, like an eraser or a button on the side, which could enable deeper and
1:15:26richer interactions.
1:15:28So for example, with my, I use a Wacom tablet, it has a button on the side of it, it has
1:15:33a couple, it has actually quite a few buttons, but let's just say one of the buttons, if
1:15:36I click it, it will make, it will basically highlight select, so then I can drag things
1:15:42around.
1:15:43Right, so I would like to see the Pencil 2 have a button on it, which an app like Procreate
1:15:48could use to turn the pen into an eraser, you know, or many different apps could use
1:15:53it in different ways, I would like to see a button added to it.
1:15:55I would also like a new smart keyboard. I would like there to be one of two things.
1:16:00Now dream scenario would be something touch bar like. Not necessarily that it is a touch
1:16:06screen, but a screen. That brings down a lot of the things like the quick type. Although
1:16:11a touch screen would be great because you could use the emoji picker. That would be
1:16:14amazing. I think we're a way away from that, right? I can't imagine that happening.
1:16:18In terms of thickness alone, yes. It would be crazy. But I would love to have
1:16:24media keys on the smart keyboard.
1:16:28And or make the smart keyboard more like the Logitech Create.
1:16:32Give me a backlight, make the key travel a little bit nicer, but I actually think the
1:16:37key travel on the smart keyboard is nicer than the MacBook.
1:16:40I actually prefer the smart keyboard to type on.
1:16:43I would like to see some big improvements to the smart keyboard.
1:16:47Make the keycaps larger, give me some function, give me some media keys.
1:16:54I want that. I want a backlight.
1:16:56- I think the top row of keys
1:16:57that's missing from the smart keyboard is painful, right?
1:17:02And we've said, "Oh, function keys are dumb,"
1:17:03but Apple did map those to other functions,
1:17:06including media playback,
1:17:09and it's painful to not have those.
1:17:11- My 9.7 has more keys on it and better features,
1:17:14the Logitech one, than the 12.9-inch iPad one
1:17:17that Apple make.
1:17:18They need to take a key from Logitech
1:17:20and make those keyboards better.
1:17:22So that's kind of what I'm looking for.
1:17:24OS improvements though I think are the most important
1:17:27even though I spent the least time talking about those.
1:17:30A lot of the iPad features are very dated now
1:17:35to the point where I can't understand
1:17:36how anybody ever thought that the app switching
1:17:40or the multi-tasking window where you,
1:17:44I kind of, what do they call that?
1:17:46The app picker? - I don't even know.
1:17:47- The multi-tasking app picker?
1:17:49It's the split view app picker thing.
1:17:52- I can't understand how anybody ever thought
1:17:54that that was the right way to design that.
1:17:57They were just like these little things.
1:17:58- I think they just ran out of time.
1:17:59I think they didn't know it,
1:18:01but we've been now living with it for a year and a half.
1:18:03So yeah, yeah.
1:18:06And I'll throw in there that OS improvements,
1:18:09I mean, yeah, drag and drop would be nice,
1:18:12a better app picker.
1:18:13Yeah, there's all sorts of things.
1:18:17access to mass storage so that I can attach an SD card without having to use some wacky
1:18:24Wi-Fi transfer app in order to see the files on the SD card and open them in an app.
1:18:29Find a way to make 3D touch work.
1:18:31Oh, interesting.
1:18:33Even if it's not putting 3D touch in the device, find a way to make 3D touch shortcuts work
1:18:38because the iPad is missing them.
1:18:40I can't clear all my notifications.
1:18:43Find a way to make that work.
1:18:44So there you go.
1:18:46That's why I want to say I have a high hopes for the iPad Pro.
1:18:51And I'm looking forward to them revising the next year.
1:18:54I will, I think this is also in the unlikely category, but I'm going to throw it in there
1:18:58because I want to, which is USB-C. I was just about to say that.
1:19:06I think that they really need to add it, but I don't think that they will.
1:19:09I don't think that they will either.
1:19:11I understand why they won't and I can support that decision, but I would still like it because
1:19:15it opens up the device to a whole world of things.
1:19:19Think of it as a laptop replacement, not as an iPhone.
1:19:23That's what Apple was saying it is, and they need to push it further towards that.
1:19:28And I think USB-C would go a long way to enabling that.
1:19:32But I understand at the same time why they wouldn't do it, because it's vastly different
1:19:37and an incredible amount of work, I'm sure, to get USB-C support on all of the peripherals
1:19:43that they would need into iOS. I understand why they wouldn't do it, but I would really
1:19:48like to see something like that, just to enable more expandability to the system.
1:19:54Oh, and I mean, part of the across the line, True Tone across the line, I'll say P3 across
1:19:58the line, because the iPad Pro 10.9 doesn't have P3.
1:20:03Oh, it has a wider color gamut though, right?
1:20:07Mm-mm.
1:20:08No?
1:20:09- The 10.7 has the wide color gamut, the 10.9 does not.
1:20:12Or sorry, the 12.9 does not.
1:20:13- Ah, that's why, yeah, okay.
1:20:14- Baby Pro has the wide color gamut,
1:20:16the full size Pro does not.
1:20:18- Yes, I would like to, yeah.
1:20:19- So that's the trade, that's the trade.
1:20:21You get P3, you get True Tone, yay.
1:20:23- And leave the Mini alone.
1:20:26- And you get USB 3.0 transfer speeds on the small one,
1:20:29which doesn't have it, which is, you know,
1:20:30and the fast charging.
1:20:32- Yeah, revise the Mini.
1:20:33I think they need to revise the Mini,
1:20:35but do not make it a Pro.
1:20:37Just leave that product alone, give it a nicer screen,
1:20:40give it a nice touch ID, make it a little bit faster,
1:20:43but just keep that product ticking along as it is, I think.
1:20:46All right, I think that wraps it up for today.
1:20:48We've solved a lot of things here, yeah.
1:20:50Yeah, we're helping.
1:20:51Just take our list up and implement those things
1:20:53and then we'll all be happy.
1:20:55- Yeah, you're welcome.
1:20:56- Product roadmap sorted.
1:20:59If you wanna find our show notes for this week,
1:21:00head on over to relay.fm/upgrades/116.
1:21:04I wanna take a moment again to thank our lovely sponsors
1:21:06this week, Eero, Encapsula and Mac Walden. If you'd like to find Jason's work online
1:21:11he is @jsnell on twitter and he writes over at 6colors.com. I am @imike on twitter. If
1:21:21you would like to submit questions, feedback, follow up for the show just tweet with the
1:21:25hashtag #askupgrade and we will see it and hopefully we'll include it in later episodes.
1:21:31So don't forget, if you want to be up to date with the show next week, you want to watch
1:21:36Gremlins in anticipation of Myke at the movies.
1:21:40Thank you so much for listening, we'll be back next time.
1:21:43Until then, say goodbye Jason Stell.
1:21:45Don't get water on Myke or feed me after midnight.
1:21:47All will become clear next week I suppose.
1:21:49Mhm.
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