Upgrade

00:00:00 ◼   ► [Music]

00:00:08 ◼   ► From Relay FM and live in Memphis, Tennessee, this is Upgrade, Episode 102. Today's show

00:00:14 ◼   ► is brought to you by PDF Pen from Smile and Squarespace. My name is Myke Hurley, and I

00:00:19 ◼   ► am joined across the table by Mr. Jason Snell.

00:00:22 ◼   ► Hi, Myke Hurley. We're here in the home of, well, we're not in the home, not now, the

00:00:26 ◼   ► City of Mr. Steven Hackett, co-founder of Relay. It's Relay Birthday Week. This is the

00:00:30 ◼   ► second anniversary of Relay and we're coming up on the second anniversary of Upgrade. And

00:00:37 ◼   ► so it's a little celebration. You guys spend the week here in Memphis and I crashed the

00:00:43 ◼   ► party for a couple of days, which is fun.

00:00:44 ◼   ► Yeah, we've got some blue sky thinking to do this week about the company, you know.

00:00:48 ◼   ► We're really kind of burning the ocean.

00:00:49 ◼   ► I think we're going to whiteboard it. We're going to work it out. We're going to do some

00:00:53 ◼   ► Trust Falls we're gonna do some other kind of corporate brainstorming exercises we're

00:00:59 ◼   ► gonna build a tower out of popsicle sticks and then we're going to destroy it. We've

00:01:05 ◼   ► both done stuff like that over the years. I know seriously. Cool pro team building.

00:01:10 ◼   ► Absolutely and so Stephen Hackett is our engineer today and not present because he's totally

00:01:15 ◼   ► lost his voice so it's just us. So yeah it's Reel AFM's birthday this week on the 18th

00:01:20 ◼   ► we turn two years old, which is actually probably good

00:01:22 ◼   ► for our first piece of follow up.

00:01:25 ◼   ► We've mentioned before the Relay FM membership,

00:01:27 ◼   ► the Relay FM members feed is now available.

00:01:30 ◼   ► If you are a member, you will have gotten an email

00:01:33 ◼   ► about this and if you sign up in the welcome email,

00:01:38 ◼   ► you'll get a link to an RSS feed,

00:01:39 ◼   ► which will include a selection of members only content

00:01:44 ◼   ► over the next couple of weeks.

00:01:46 ◼   ► So there's some stuff out there is, as we speak today,

00:01:49 ◼   ► Connected and Bonanza, we have two episodes there.

00:01:52 ◼   ► And later on this week, we have an absolute

00:01:56 ◼   ► barnstormer of a special.

00:01:58 ◼   ► - Yeah.

00:01:59 ◼   ► - Where we combined Upgrade and Cortex

00:02:01 ◼   ► to do a text adventure.

00:02:03 ◼   ► Actually, at the end of the show today,

00:02:05 ◼   ► we put a trailer together.

00:02:06 ◼   ► - Oh great.

00:02:07 ◼   ► - I'll play out the episode of a trailer

00:02:10 ◼   ► so you can kind of see what you're gonna get.

00:02:12 ◼   ► If you are a member, you'll get this feed

00:02:14 ◼   ► and when this show comes out,

00:02:15 ◼   ► I think we're gonna post that one on Thursday.

00:02:18 ◼   ► But if you sign up before or after, you'll still get the feed and you'll be able to get all of them.

00:02:22 ◼   ► Trust me, you really, really want the Cortex upgrade special.

00:02:26 ◼   ► Yes, I get to be...

00:02:27 ◼   ► That's me acting as sort of your referee almost,

00:02:32 ◼   ► frustrating you and Grey in your attempts to navigate the Old West.

00:02:37 ◼   ► Yep, Jason is the computer and me and Grey have to work together on the adventure.

00:02:41 ◼   ► It's really, really fun.

00:02:44 ◼   ► That will be available. I'll put a trailer at the end of the show so you can kind of get a feel for what that's like.

00:02:48 ◼   ► You were on the talk show last week. Yeah, a little follow-out. And it was a really

00:02:53 ◼   ► great episode as always. I always love it when you're on that show. We had a long flight

00:02:55 ◼   ► so you had enough time to listen to it. But as you cross the Atlantic it was

00:02:59 ◼   ► another group who said to me, "Oh it's not gonna be one of those two and a half

00:03:01 ◼   ► hour deals." And it wasn't, it was like 220. So, you know, slightly shorter. Short show.

00:03:07 ◼   ► Yeah, I enjoy especially that show when I'm on long trips because it

00:03:12 ◼   ► fits quite nicely. But yeah, you and John are always good together. It was fun, yeah.

00:03:15 ◼   ► It's always always a blast to talk to him and we do I think we do all seriousness

00:03:20 ◼   ► intend to not talk for two and a half hours, but I I so

00:03:25 ◼   ► Infrequently see him I see him at Apple events and we don't we're all so busy

00:03:29 ◼   ► We don't get a chance to talk for very long and then we get on on Skype and it just yeah

00:03:33 ◼   ► it just goes because it's it's fun to talk to him and and

00:03:37 ◼   ► It was a good we had a good time

00:03:39 ◼   ► I tried very hard to not steer the conversation toward baseball as often happens because I know a lot of tech people

00:03:45 ◼   ► Don't want to hear about sports stuff

00:03:47 ◼   ► So I decided to talk about my clicky keyboard because I know that he likes clicky keyboard

00:03:51 ◼   ► So we talked about that for a while

00:03:52 ◼   ► And then of course as soon as we were done with that John brought up baseball

00:03:55 ◼   ► So if you don't like keyboards and baseball I suggest it's it's really less than two hour podcast

00:04:00 ◼   ► You can just skip over the first half hour and you'll you know

00:04:03 ◼   ► You'll still get us talking about Apple and other tech stuff and not the keyboards in the baseball. Hey, Jason

00:04:08 ◼   ► Why don't we talk about keyboards and baseball? Okay, let's do that

00:04:14 ◼   ► Stephen Hackett famously doesn't like baseball in his program the relay slack to react to the word baseball or the baseball emoji

00:04:21 ◼   ► with America's boring pastime

00:04:24 ◼   ► Took us to a baseball game

00:04:27 ◼   ► Which is an interesting my first it was a yeah, it's minor league. It's triple-a Pacific Coast League

00:04:32 ◼   ► It's the the Memphis Redbirds which are the affiliate of the st

00:04:36 ◼   ► Louis Cardinals and we went to their their ballpark and it was pouring rain at various points

00:04:41 ◼   ► But we were inside we were actually sort of at the bar that it's overlooking home plate right behind home plate

00:04:46 ◼   ► And I got to explain some baseball things to you and I got a ball and you got a ball

00:04:51 ◼   ► So as soon as we arrived a ball flew into the stands where we were

00:04:56 ◼   ► Entering and I was able to grab it

00:04:59 ◼   ► So now I have a baseball from my first ever baseball game

00:05:01 ◼   ► You were concerned that you were not allowed to pick it up

00:05:08 ◼   ► - And it would just land. - Stop that, Englishman.

00:05:10 ◼   ► - Like three kind of seats in front of me

00:05:13 ◼   ► and I'd look like a fool and everyone would laugh,

00:05:14 ◼   ► but no, you get to keep it, and now I have one,

00:05:16 ◼   ► and it has dirt on it and everything.

00:05:17 ◼   ► - It's a great souvenir of your first baseball game,

00:05:20 ◼   ► to have a baseball, a minor league baseball.

00:05:22 ◼   ► So we did that.

00:05:23 ◼   ► I also was admiring your, so you have,

00:05:27 ◼   ► and I hadn't seen it before,

00:05:28 ◼   ► you have the Logitech 9.7-inch Create keyboard

00:05:32 ◼   ► for your 9.7-inch iPad Pro.

00:05:34 ◼   ► - I do.

00:05:35 ◼   ► - And I have written a couple articles,

00:05:37 ◼   ► I've been focusing on the 12.9.

00:05:39 ◼   ► I have both models, but I use the 12.9.

00:05:42 ◼   ► That's sort of my iPad.

00:05:43 ◼   ► And so I've been focusing on keyboards for that.

00:05:46 ◼   ► And a lot of the keyboards of the 12.9 iPad,

00:05:50 ◼   ► the problem is the surface area

00:05:53 ◼   ► of the iPad screen is enormous, which is great.

00:05:55 ◼   ► It's not a problem.

00:05:56 ◼   ► I love that screen, but it means that any accessory

00:05:59 ◼   ► that is going to act as a cover and cover that screen

00:06:03 ◼   ► is huge and every added little bit of thickness

00:06:07 ◼   ► makes it bulkier. And so as a result, most of the keyboards that are made for the 12.9

00:06:13 ◼   ► inch Pro are kind of too much. And what I found with the smart keyboard on the 9.7 is

00:06:20 ◼   ► that it was much less bulky. It was a much more attractive product. And then I saw your

00:06:23 ◼   ► Logitech keyboard, and I don't like the Logitech Create. I think it's kind of too much for

00:06:28 ◼   ► the 12.9. But yours is, it's really kind of adorable. It's really great.

00:06:34 ◼   ► So when I first got it and I was talking about it on Connected last week I was really unsure about it

00:06:37 ◼   ► because it adds a lot of thickness and a lot of weight to what is a very portable device

00:06:42 ◼   ► but I have fallen madly in love with it.

00:06:46 ◼   ► The keyboard on this thing is a joy to use.

00:06:51 ◼   ► The smart keyboards are very practical.

00:06:55 ◼   ► It's a keyboard that is always attached and it works.

00:06:59 ◼   ► But this is an actual keyboard that I'm used to typing on. It's more akin to a MacBook

00:07:05 ◼   ► keyboard.

00:07:06 ◼   ► Yeah, but it's not aping the MacBook keyboard design like the 12.9-inch Create keyboard,

00:07:10 ◼   ► which I kind of appreciate, I think. And it's very typable, even though it's a much smaller

00:07:16 ◼   ► area that all those keys have to be jammed into. I think they did a good job. Not only

00:07:20 ◼   ► are they real keys, but I thought it was pretty enjoyable to type on it. They're backlit,

00:07:25 ◼   ► which is really nice.

00:07:26 ◼   ► is one of the main reasons that I'm going to be sticking with this, because I'm able

00:07:31 ◼   ► to use it at night. And that is a big thing for me.

00:07:33 ◼   ► And we were saying yesterday, you know, so often we say things for the podcast, but,

00:07:38 ◼   ► you know, we're actually in each other's presence, so we have conversations that are

00:07:41 ◼   ► not recorded. It's strange, podcasters.

00:07:43 ◼   ► That tends to be the same stuff that we talk about on the show anyway.

00:07:45 ◼   ► Yeah, it is. That's your real bonus episode, is to just stand near us while we're having

00:07:48 ◼   ► a conversation.

00:07:49 ◼   ► That's next year's Memos Park.

00:07:51 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:07:52 ◼   ► You get to hang around Jason and Myke.

00:07:53 ◼   ► We just give you the address of a street corner, and we'll be talking there if you'd like

00:07:56 ◼   ► to come by you can listen in on that conversation but we were talking about

00:07:59 ◼   ► about the percentage of time that you use your iPad in a keyboard

00:08:04 ◼   ► configuration and this struck me as being one of the reasons why maybe our

00:08:09 ◼   ► takes on this are a little bit divergent is that I you said what 90% of the time

00:08:14 ◼   ► your iPad is in a keyboard yeah whenever I'm using my iPad it is pretty much

00:08:19 ◼   ► always in landscape mode with a keyboard attached to it I don't know why that is

00:08:24 ◼   ► it just is like even when I'm reading stuff like Twitter and stuff that's how

00:08:26 ◼   ► I have it I have it in landscape usually in split view even on the 9 7 because

00:08:31 ◼   ► split view works and you have a keyboard attached but if you doesn't work on the

00:08:34 ◼   ► 9 7 when using the software keyboard because you get 25% of the apps right

00:08:39 ◼   ► like you get just the top corners but it really works with the keyboard so I tend

00:08:43 ◼   ► to have it in that configuration and it's just because that's how it stands

00:08:46 ◼   ► like this thing it's really stable with the keyboard attached to it more so than

00:08:50 ◼   ► the smart keyboard yeah and plus it's got the pencil loop in it as well but

00:08:53 ◼   ► But yeah, I tend to have my iPads in their keyboards.

00:08:57 ◼   ► And for me, although I am a landscape iPad user, for sure, um, most of the time, unless

00:09:03 ◼   ► I'm reading a comic or something like that, or maybe a long article, I'll have it in landscape.

00:09:08 ◼   ► In portrait.

00:09:09 ◼   ► Yeah, well, when I'm reading a comic or an article, I'll be in portrait.

00:09:15 ◼   ► Otherwise I'm in landscape.

00:09:16 ◼   ► I'm always in landscape.

00:09:18 ◼   ► But I have the keyboard attached less than 10% of the time, maybe 5% of the time.

00:09:23 ◼   ► unless I'm writing an article, I don't use a keyboard, which is why having an external

00:09:27 ◼   ► Bluetooth keyboard and a stand really works well for me is because it's a special occasion

00:09:33 ◼   ► to break out the keyboard. And so I think that is the source anyway of our maybe our

00:09:38 ◼   ► different take on this is everybody's different. Everybody's going to have that percentage

00:09:43 ◼   ► of time where they want to use the iPad with a keyboard. And if it's a high percentage,

00:09:47 ◼   ► then you're willing to make more trade-offs. Now that the Logitech Create 9.7, it is fairly

00:09:52 ◼   ► easy to pop it out of there. I think easier than on the 12.9. I think they learned a lot

00:09:58 ◼   ► of lessons after they made that 12.9. This 9.7 is not just a knockoff small version of

00:10:04 ◼   ► the 12.9. I think it is everybody who designed that product learning from the criticism of

00:10:08 ◼   ► it and making it better because it's better in all those ways. So you pop it out and then

00:10:13 ◼   ► you've got the naked iPad but it's a yeah yeah it's I'm impressed by it. I'm not sure

00:10:19 ◼   ► whether yeah I have a loaner from Apple that I expect that they're going to want back at

00:10:27 ◼   ► some point soon but I've held on to it because I'm running iOS 10 on it and not on my the

00:10:32 ◼   ► one that I bought the 12.9 that I bought but yeah yeah it's a my I if I had a 9.7 I think

00:10:41 ◼   ► I would probably get it I'm impressed by it a little bit of follow-up friend of the show

00:10:46 ◼   ► Jeremy Burge of Emojipedia has started a podcast called The Emoji Rap. There's just like a

00:10:52 ◼   ► trailer episode right now, but I'm suggesting people subscribe to this show because we talk

00:10:58 ◼   ► about emoji a lot. Emoji is very interesting and Jeremy is very connected to the emoji

00:11:04 ◼   ► world. He's on the Unicode committee. Yeah he's on the emoji subcommittee. So from talking

00:11:09 ◼   ► to him I know he's got some interesting people lined up. So if you are interested in emoji

00:11:13 ◼   ► at all. I recommend subscribing to the emoji wrap and of course you will find a link to

00:11:18 ◼   ► that in our show notes and I'm very excited about it and the artwork is amazing. It is

00:11:22 ◼   ► a microphone in a burrito wrap which is brilliant with a smiley face on the microphone naturally

00:11:28 ◼   ► so go give it a shot. Jeremy's a great guy. Yeah yeah I'm looking forward to that. And

00:11:33 ◼   ► last piece of whole lot today do you remember many weeks ago we were talking about the rainbow

00:11:37 ◼   ► Apple Watch nylon band. Yeah, the Pride bands. Yeah, someone sent me an article on 9to5Mac,

00:11:45 ◼   ► it looks like it was a sponsored thing on 9to5Mac but it's still interesting to mention.

00:11:49 ◼   ► There's a company called Clockwork Synergy which is making these, the nylon bands that

00:11:55 ◼   ► are in the rainbow colours and I wondered, Jason, if you would think about buying something

00:12:00 ◼   ► like this. I'm still very hesitant of buying any bands that don't use the lugs from Apple

00:12:08 ◼   ► and from what I could see on their website it doesn't look like that they have the official

00:12:11 ◼   ► lugs.

00:12:12 ◼   ► I have a couple of bands that use knock-off watch band lugs.

00:12:18 ◼   ► Which is why I wondered if you would be interested in this because I know you have them. I'm

00:12:21 ◼   ► just nervous of it, like of it slipping out or something. Which is also another point.

00:12:25 ◼   ► Where are the third-party bands made by the Made for iPhone program? There aren't any

00:12:30 ◼   ► like Apple has all the specs out, I haven't seen one.

00:12:32 ◼   ► Well, you've got to wonder if the issue there is concern about compatibility with a future

00:12:39 ◼   ► Apple Watch model.

00:12:40 ◼   ► Don't say that.

00:12:41 ◼   ► I have so many bands.

00:12:42 ◼   ► I know, and I hope that's not the case.

00:12:44 ◼   ► But you also have to wonder if it's just the terms of that.

00:12:49 ◼   ► You're buying the lugs from Apple, you're paying a licensing fee.

00:12:52 ◼   ► Might just be not worth it.

00:12:54 ◼   ► They might be thinking, well, we're competing with third-party bands that cost half of what

00:12:58 ◼   ► we're going to be able to charge for this and so let's not even bother.

00:13:01 ◼   ► That could be it. That could be it. Like can you think maybe, I don't know, like the Hermes

00:13:04 ◼   ► ones might be from that program? Apple, I mean the high end, I feel like Apple's

00:13:09 ◼   ► licensing program is more likely for some kind of high end brand that wants to do its

00:13:14 ◼   ► own Apple Watch band and doesn't have a deal directly with Apple.

00:13:18 ◼   ► I think there is one company, I can't remember the name, but I know I've seen there is a

00:13:22 ◼   ► fashion brand which is teasing some and they look to be the official ones. I can't remember

00:13:28 ◼   ► the name off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure that there is someone doing it, but it's,

00:13:33 ◼   ► as you say, a big brand that can charge larger prices.

00:13:37 ◼   ► Because that's the value you get is in doing that. Otherwise, you're a third party, you

00:13:43 ◼   ► know, what's a third party band otherwise? You're trying to go for undercutting Apple

00:13:47 ◼   ► on price, I would think. And I doubt if you're licensing, you're going to be able to do that.

00:13:51 ◼   ► So then how do you differentiate from all the Apple stuff? Because by all accounts,

00:13:55 ◼   ► all the Apple bands are incredibly high quality, so you're not going to outdo them on

00:13:58 ◼   ► quality probably unless you're some sort of brand that offers a you know a luxury brand

00:14:04 ◼   ► experience of some kind and so I think that's the story is that it's it's cheaper and easier

00:14:09 ◼   ► for these companies to get knockoff lugs and sell them on eBay for for $20 a shot or $15

00:14:16 ◼   ► a shot and I've got a couple and they're fine they're not great they're not as good quality

00:14:20 ◼   ► as Apple but they're but they're fine. And there are lots of people that have them and

00:14:23 ◼   ► they said that they're fine but I have so many bands and a good choice of them

00:14:27 ◼   ► I'm fine with it but I'm just a little bit nervous if one day my watch just

00:14:32 ◼   ► slipping off my wrist or whatever yeah sure that's what that's what kind of

00:14:35 ◼   ► freaks me out but it's there if you want it maybe you should get it and you can

00:14:39 ◼   ► you can say what you think of it because it's a fun idea. It's a fun idea, the six-color band.

00:14:46 ◼   ► This episode of Upgrade is brought to you by PDF Pen from Smile. I'm very excited about

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00:17:08 ◼   ► I honestly I use it every single day because if I'm not using it for the

00:17:11 ◼   ► house stuff I'm using it for contracts and stuff for real AFM it we had to do

00:17:16 ◼   ► this we had to do this my wife needed to fax fax something away and be and it was

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00:17:51 ◼   ► report guys on fire yeah report from the government desk this is all about the

00:17:58 ◼   ► macbook pro line refresh so we're gonna talk about that before I have a question

00:18:02 ◼   ► I'd like to pose for you so we're coming up on September coming up on the event

00:18:06 ◼   ► We've had iPhone rumors coming out from Goemon. We now have MacBook stuff

00:18:10 ◼   ► Not only is did nothing from him

00:18:13 ◼   ► But I can't think of I can't recall any credible

00:18:17 ◼   ► sources any credible reports about the Apple watch -

00:18:21 ◼   ► nothing

00:18:23 ◼   ► What what what's happening here? Do you think that maybe the product is so small production wise?

00:18:29 ◼   ► It's not fully in the chain yet. I think it's possible. I think that they may

00:18:34 ◼   ► if there is an Apple Watch 2, so there are a couple possibilities. One rumor is that

00:18:41 ◼   ► there is an Apple Watch 2 design as well as an update to the Apple Watch original that

00:18:47 ◼   ► there might be sort of, they'll keep the original around as the sport model with slightly upgraded

00:18:53 ◼   ► internals which is something I've expected all along. I think I might have even talked

00:18:57 ◼   ► about this when it was announced a couple years ago, the idea that they might leave

00:19:01 ◼   ► the external design the same. Why? Of course they will. They're going to have the one that

00:19:05 ◼   ► we have right now for sale for cheaper because that's the Apple way. Every product line has

00:19:09 ◼   ► this. Right, so they'll make it a little bit faster maybe, maybe it has a little bit more

00:19:12 ◼   ► memory but it's basically the same Apple Watch now. I don't think they're going to do that.

00:19:15 ◼   ► It'll look exactly the same. I think it's possible that they'd upgrade the internals

00:19:18 ◼   ► a little bit but nothing substantial and maybe not even talk about it but it might be slightly

00:19:23 ◼   ► better, slight variation. But if you think that watchOS 3 is fast now, they don't need

00:19:27 ◼   ► to do it. That's true. I don't think they're going to do that. So they keep that around

00:19:30 ◼   ► as the sport model and they cut the price and then they start producing one that's got

00:19:34 ◼   ► fancier features at higher price points.

00:19:36 ◼   ► I hope that if they do that though they don't just have aluminium versions of the watch

00:19:41 ◼   ► too. Like that they, not just stainless steel I mean, and they also have the aluminium versions.

00:19:46 ◼   ► Because I personally don't like the stainless steel design for me. So we'll see what they

00:19:50 ◼   ► do there.

00:19:51 ◼   ► We'll see. So my theories are one, it is so small or constrained or they are making an

00:19:56 ◼   ► effort based on where they're making it to keep the leaks out of the supply chain or

00:20:02 ◼   ► it may not even be put in production yet that they're that they're leaving that to later

00:20:06 ◼   ► and it's something that's not going to ship until October or November even right I think

00:20:10 ◼   ► they really just want to get it out there for the holiday season which means they could

00:20:14 ◼   ► even not ship it until early November and it would be just fine I think and so that's

00:20:19 ◼   ► one theory and my other product that they need to worry about announcing early right

00:20:24 ◼   ► So it's the Osbourne effect, right?

00:20:25 ◼   ► Yeah, where they kill the-- yeah, Apple Watch 1 sales

00:20:28 ◼   ► are trailing off right now anyway in anticipation of it.

00:20:30 ◼   ► Speaking of which, I'm going to put a link in the show notes

00:20:33 ◼   ► to a Planet Money episode about the Osbourne effect.

00:20:35 ◼   ► I don't listen to Planet Money, but Adina does.

00:20:38 ◼   ► And it was on in the house the other day.

00:20:40 ◼   ► And it was absolutely fascinating

00:20:44 ◼   ► to hear about Osbourne computers and how

00:20:46 ◼   ► they kind of just exploded.

00:20:50 ◼   ► It was really, really interesting.

00:20:52 ◼   ► So I'm gonna put that in there. I'll find it. I'm sure it's around here

00:20:56 ◼   ► But yeah, if you don't know what the Osborne effect is goes into that. It's very smart

00:21:01 ◼   ► I'm right at it

00:21:02 ◼   ► So they my other theory is that there the Apple watch 2 looks so much like the Apple watch one that nobody can tell

00:21:08 ◼   ► That it is that it is literally an internals upgrade and that it may not look anything different on the outside

00:21:17 ◼   ► or or so close in terms of maybe the the metal enclosure or

00:21:22 ◼   ► even if it does have GPS, even if it does have a camera, that that may be part of the

00:21:29 ◼   ► screen housing and not the metal enclosure so that the places where most of these leaks

00:21:33 ◼   ► come from in terms of like the enclosures wouldn't see it or wouldn't notice it. It

00:21:38 ◼   ► wouldn't shock me because again I feel like this brand new product you got a bunch of

00:21:44 ◼   ► early adopters maybe Apple doesn't want its next iteration of the Apple watch to be that

00:21:49 ◼   ► different from the one that's out there now. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, sure,

00:21:53 ◼   ► ultimately they want it to be a thinner product. I'm not sure that this is the era yet of the

00:21:59 ◼   ► Apple Watch where they can really make it thinner when they've got so much that they're

00:22:03 ◼   ► trying to pack into that technology. I think it's small enough. It's not a thin watch by

00:22:09 ◼   ► any stretch of the imagination, but it's small enough that maybe they want to kind of let

00:22:12 ◼   ► it ride and just do a smaller upgrade to make it more capable and sell more of them. Because

00:22:19 ◼   ► honestly I don't know, I'm not seeing a huge leap that they could necessarily take with

00:22:25 ◼   ► it. I think the software, what we saw with watchOS 3, I think watchOS 3 is the biggest

00:22:30 ◼   ► leap for the Apple Watch, honestly. But we'll see. So that's one theory is that it's so

00:22:36 ◼   ► subtle that we may not notice. And the other theory is that it's, yeah, that they're hiding

00:22:40 ◼   ► it away and it's not far enough along that we had any leaks.

00:22:44 ◼   ► We'll see. I mean, I don't know, I feel like they're gonna do something. I really want

00:22:49 ◼   ► to see it just get a little bit thinner. That's mainly all I want. I mean, a lot of the rumors

00:22:53 ◼   ► early on, well, a little while ago was about putting a camera in the thing.

00:22:56 ◼   ► I still don't understand the value of putting a camera in it.

00:22:59 ◼   ► I don't think it would work. But we'll see. Anyway, so the government report about the

00:23:03 ◼   ► MacBook Pro, refresh, slightly thinner, not tapered, smaller footprint. Slightly thinner.

00:23:09 ◼   ► I wanted lots thinner. I wanted like towards MacBook thinner.

00:23:14 ◼   ► So I talked about this with Gruber on the talk show last week and I think the challenge

00:23:20 ◼   ► here, I think we all wanted that, right? We all wanted, we wanted the MacBook and the

00:23:26 ◼   ► MacBook Air to lead the way for the MacBook Pro. They are more than those, more substantial

00:23:30 ◼   ► than those computers but still thinner, lighter, always it's the Apple law, thinner and lighter.

00:23:37 ◼   ► And I think the problem is that if you look at the MacBook, it's extreme, but what you're

00:23:43 ◼   ► seeing there is cooling problems, power problems, it's so underpowered compared to like state-of-the-art.

00:23:53 ◼   ► And it's because of the quest to have it be thin and light.

00:23:56 ◼   ► This is the MacBook Pro.

00:23:59 ◼   ► It has to supply a minimum amount of performance.

00:24:02 ◼   ► It has to.

00:24:03 ◼   ► Otherwise, use the MacBook.

00:24:04 ◼   ► If you want thin and light, use the MacBook.

00:24:07 ◼   ► But the MacBook Pro has to have a base level of performance.

00:24:10 ◼   ► They can't not have a laptop in their line that's capable of top of the line laptop performance.

00:24:17 ◼   ► And I think that's what's behind this.

00:24:19 ◼   ► It's just, you know, we can't make it this much smaller because we can't put an i7 in

00:24:27 ◼   ► it.

00:24:28 ◼   ► We can't use the full-on Intel processors.

00:24:30 ◼   ► We can't do the discrete graphics card that we need to in order to drive an external HD

00:24:34 ◼   ► display, let's say, down the road. There's so many things that kind of fall off the feature

00:24:39 ◼   ► list if this happens, if they take it below a certain point. So I feel like there is still

00:24:46 ◼   ► a constraining factor in there. They're trying to get it as light and thin as they can while

00:24:50 ◼   ► still having it be a flagship laptop. But it is disappointing, right? Because we all

00:24:56 ◼   ► imagine a MacBook Pro that feels more like the MacBook, and it just may not be possible

00:25:01 ◼   ► for them because the MacBook is so, I mean, it's the cautionary tale of laptops, right?

00:25:07 ◼   ► Don't be like me unless you want it, I mean, if you want it thin and light, be like that,

00:25:12 ◼   ► but a pro laptop can't afford to make that decision.

00:25:16 ◼   ► Just quickly, it wasn't Planet Money, it was Gimlet's eBay podcast, Open for Business.

00:25:21 ◼   ► That was what it was on, so I'll put that in the show notes in case you're looking for

00:25:24 ◼   ► it. It's worth listening to.

00:25:27 ◼   ► The reason I want it super thin and super light is my own selfish needs. What I'm looking

00:25:31 ◼   ► for out of an Apple laptop now is the best possible laptop for travelling. Because the

00:25:39 ◼   ► only time I ever use a laptop now is when it's in my bag and I'm on a trip like this

00:25:44 ◼   ► because I might need to use logic on the go. So I'm looking for the smallest, thinnest

00:25:49 ◼   ► powerful computer. That's my desire. So that's why I want it to be super light and super

00:25:55 ◼   ► thin. I will take slightly thinner, but what I really want is a lot lighter. That's what I'm

00:26:02 ◼   ► looking for. And just to be the devil's advocate here, I suppose, a little bit,

00:26:08 ◼   ► you could argue that there is not a lot that you do that a MacBook can't do. Like the MacBook,

00:26:18 ◼   ► and you could build that with that i7 even, I think. This is what I thought. So I was actually

00:26:25 ◼   ► very close to buying a MacBook at WWDC because Gray was using one like and it

00:26:32 ◼   ► was working for him he was editing we were looking at it together your

00:26:35 ◼   ► pressure is powerful and I was I was holding a MacBook adorable in my hands

00:26:39 ◼   ► and I was gonna get it but I thought to myself we're so close from the MacBook

00:26:43 ◼   ► Pro refresh I need to see what that is because if it is super light and super

00:26:48 ◼   ► thin or light enough and thin enough it will still have all the power that I need

00:26:53 ◼   ► So I'm just for me personally, I'm just gonna see what they do here and then think about my next upgrade

00:26:59 ◼   ► Like I might not rush into it and just keep the MacBook Pro that I have for a while

00:27:03 ◼   ► But there are some things in this which are interesting to me and the touchscreen

00:27:07 ◼   ► Trip for the function keys. I think that could be kind of cool

00:27:12 ◼   ► So this is one of the things why I'm like umming and ahhing about what to do here. So from German's report

00:27:18 ◼   ► They the touch screen strip will present functions on an as-needed basis to fit the current task or application. I

00:27:24 ◼   ► Not the first person to think this but it threw me right back to the original iPhone introduction, you know

00:27:30 ◼   ► No physical buttons just a touch screen because then you can add the buttons. You can change the buttons

00:27:36 ◼   ► You can make the buttons whatever you need them to be right?

00:27:38 ◼   ► So it made me think of that like I imagine having logic open and being able to program in some shortcuts

00:27:44 ◼   ► of the tools that I want to switch to, which would then make it even more

00:27:48 ◼   ► interesting and more cool to use than my iMac for that function. So this is why I

00:27:53 ◼   ► think this could be interesting, but I know that people like yourself who have

00:27:59 ◼   ► been used to using these keyboards for a long time are a little bit more hesitant

00:28:02 ◼   ► of keys being removed in the interest of adding this touchscreen strip.

00:28:07 ◼   ► I'm skeptical about the touchscreen. Oh I should say as my follow-up, yes you can

00:28:12 ◼   ► built to order an M7, which is the lightweight version of that. So you can power up that

00:28:17 ◼   ► MacBook a lot.

00:28:18 ◼   ► And I would. It's possible.

00:28:21 ◼   ► The touchscreen thing, again Gruber and I touched on this too, and he made the point

00:28:26 ◼   ► of do you not look at your function keys? Because I complained that if you have to do

00:28:32 ◼   ► it not on feel, but you have to look at the screen, you have to look down. I do touch

00:28:38 ◼   ► type some of the the power you know the volume and the brightness I do I do that but my concern

00:28:44 ◼   ► is is it really going to be app specific stuff or is it mostly going to be system stuff and

00:28:50 ◼   ► maybe there will be an option for some app specific stuff on there but I feel like it's

00:28:54 ◼   ► much more likely that it's mostly system shortcuts and maybe apps will be able to put the labels

00:29:01 ◼   ► on the the equivalent of function keys so like they'll say you can have access to f1

00:29:08 ◼   ► F8 and as you do now. So you reckon that the volume and the brightness will always be there,

00:29:14 ◼   ► right? Like, my expectation is it will take more taps. So there'll be like on the right

00:29:19 ◼   ► hand side you'll get like a little sun and a little volume thing and you'll tap that

00:29:23 ◼   ► and it will expand and then you could change the volume or brightness. I don't know if

00:29:27 ◼   ► this is going to be multi-touch or not but my, I don't know if this is a prediction.

00:29:33 ◼   ► If I were at Apple, I would at least ask the people involved, why do we need discrete key

00:29:44 ◼   ► taps for volume and brightness?

00:29:47 ◼   ► Could that not be if you put your finger anywhere on that strip and slide it up and down, it's

00:29:53 ◼   ► brightness?

00:29:54 ◼   ► And if you put two fingers down and slide it, it's volume.

00:30:00 ◼   ► then you wouldn't be tapping buttons at all. That completely changes your requirement for

00:30:04 ◼   ► having it from a touch typing perspective. Right. Because you're doing it. You're doing

00:30:10 ◼   ► gestures. You're doing gestures for the most common controls for a laptop. If they don't

00:30:13 ◼   ► put gestures in that bar, it may as well have been another company that made it. Because

00:30:18 ◼   ► gestures are Apple's thing. Right? So a multi-touch bar where you don't have to... because what

00:30:25 ◼   ► I've been saying all along... It's really small actually. About volume and brightness

00:30:28 ◼   ► is they're not fundamentally discrete key tap interfaces. We've repurposed keys to do

00:30:36 ◼   ► them because we have keys on a keyboard, right? But they're not -- they're all a continuum,

00:30:43 ◼   ► right? They all are sliders, essentially. And so in the interface you have them as sliders,

00:30:49 ◼   ► but on your keyboard you have keys, so you tap the keys. But if they do this, they don't

00:30:54 ◼   ► need to be keys anymore. They really can be. You know, imagine as a laptop user, you're

00:30:59 ◼   ► sitting in front of your laptop and you want it to be a little brighter or darker, just

00:31:02 ◼   ► being able to reach up to that strip and stick your finger down and then just slide until

00:31:06 ◼   ► you're comfortable and then let go. It's like that makes so much sense to me.

00:31:10 ◼   ► I really like that. So that's what I hope they do. And then you

00:31:14 ◼   ► don't need brightness and volume controllers on that strip at all.

00:31:18 ◼   ► Because you have a better method of doing it now.

00:31:20 ◼   ► Like that's not like, "Oh, we've replaced it." That's better. Like that's just a better

00:31:25 ◼   ► way of doing this.

00:31:26 ◼   ► Or alternately you say if you slide on, if it's not multi-touch, you slide the finger

00:31:29 ◼   ► on the right side and it's volume and on the left side it's brightness or something like

00:31:32 ◼   ► that. But something that's gestural and not like tap, tap, tap, tap on this touch screen.

00:31:36 ◼   ► I'd like that. And then my other theory is that, you know, how do you make this thing

00:31:41 ◼   ► not a feature that only affects MacBook Pro 2016 models is maybe the easy way is to just

00:31:49 ◼   ► say look app developers you know put your shortcuts on f1 through f8 and then

00:31:54 ◼   ► here's an API to do custom labels and on this model the custom labels will show

00:32:00 ◼   ► and you get to name what f3 is and put a little icon and put a little icon and

00:32:05 ◼   ► all that stuff and on all the other systems it's f3 it's just right there

00:32:09 ◼   ► thing is though the MacBook Pro if you're a Mac developer that's got to be

00:32:15 ◼   ► where the majority of your audience is anyway.

00:32:17 ◼   ► - Yeah, but it'll take years for--

00:32:19 ◼   ► - Yeah, I agree, but like a new API,

00:32:22 ◼   ► like a new framework to work just with that bar

00:32:24 ◼   ► that only works on the MacBook Pro,

00:32:26 ◼   ► I don't think that's a bad decision.

00:32:28 ◼   ► Like if you're a developer,

00:32:29 ◼   ► because there have got to be so many,

00:32:31 ◼   ► like do you have the basic level,

00:32:33 ◼   ► which is what you just said,

00:32:34 ◼   ► like you map the keys and you put little icons in,

00:32:36 ◼   ► but then there's also a like press and hold and drag,

00:32:39 ◼   ► and like, you know, there's another level

00:32:42 ◼   ► you can move to if you want to.

00:32:43 ◼   ► - Yeah, it depends on-- - Because it would upset me

00:32:44 ◼   ► if they put this bar in and all it did was just replace the keys.

00:32:47 ◼   ► Yeah I agree. Like I want it to be like with this idea of the brightness and volume I want

00:32:52 ◼   ► that sort of stuff like in logic right? Like that it can control some kind of volume or

00:32:57 ◼   ► some kind of slider or you know. And that would sell you potentially on buying a MacBook

00:33:02 ◼   ► Pro which is one of the ideas here and if it took off maybe they would put that in all

00:33:05 ◼   ► their other other products too. I hope that this would come and it would be crazy if it

00:33:09 ◼   ► didn't to a keyboard a new magic keyboard. Oh sure. And have one of these in them. And

00:33:13 ◼   ► would be mega expensive like 250 bucks or something they would charge for it

00:33:17 ◼   ► this but it would be really cool I I would go so far as to say I feel like

00:33:21 ◼   ► this is a this thing will be a failure if it doesn't extend to the rest of the

00:33:24 ◼   ► Mac product like like force touch or the full such track you got to put it

00:33:28 ◼   ► everywhere you got to make it available everywhere for such trackpad didn't come

00:33:31 ◼   ► to the trackpad like the the magic trackpad right that would it would have

00:33:36 ◼   ► forced touch would have been a failure because if you don't bring it to that

00:33:38 ◼   ► external product it means it didn't work as well enough in the laptop right so

00:33:41 ◼   ► They I mean I would argue that it didn't doesn't work anywhere like as an extension

00:33:45 ◼   ► But like the the technology is good right that you can create this thing where it clicks and but that's effectively all it does for

00:33:53 ◼   ► Me, okay. I don't know anyone that's using it differently. All it is is like congratulations. You removed the need for a spring

00:33:59 ◼   ► Yeah, that's effectively all they did because I don't know

00:34:03 ◼   ► Anyone, I'm sure people will contact me. Please do if you do it that uses the force touch trackpad gestures for anything

00:34:11 ◼   ► Like you've got all the stuff like to what is it like to seek in a video and but it's not used but it's cool

00:34:16 ◼   ► Technology and if what they did was it helped them make the laptops thinner then great you succeeded but as a

00:34:24 ◼   ► New gesture interface the force touch stuff. I don't think has really taken off in any way

00:34:30 ◼   ► But the product like the idea of it the technology works. That's one saying like

00:34:35 ◼   ► Even if people don't really super adopt it if it comes to the keyboard

00:34:40 ◼   ► know the technology works and even from a base level everyone's happy with it but we'll see um

00:34:45 ◼   ► let's chew over some other things that this that this macbook pro is rumored to have sure

00:34:48 ◼   ► more powerful graphics chips is a line that i cannot get my head around in german's article

00:34:54 ◼   ► for expert users such as video gamers i can't get my head around what this means like for one thing

00:35:03 ◼   ► like that that the sentence just doesn't make any sense to me like expert users such as video gamers

00:35:08 ◼   ► I don't think that those two terms are interchangeable like gamers are not expert users of computers and expert users aren't necessarily gamers, but

00:35:15 ◼   ► Why are they pointing out?

00:35:19 ◼   ► The graphics chips work for games. This is not a thing on the Mac like

00:35:24 ◼   ► Mac gaming there. There are lots and lots of hurdles the biggest hurdle being that Apple have

00:35:31 ◼   ► Kind of terrible chips for games. Yeah, I

00:35:35 ◼   ► I don't know why they would be promoting this as a thing, right?

00:35:38 ◼   ► Like, why they're talking about this to Gherman,

00:35:40 ◼   ► 'cause they will talk about it on stage, I expect.

00:35:43 ◼   ► And I can't understand why they're doing this in the MacBook Pro line.

00:35:46 ◼   ► Like, it's just—this is just a thing that's very confusing to me,

00:35:49 ◼   ► and I really want to see more about what that means

00:35:52 ◼   ► and what the chips actually are that they're gonna be using.

00:35:54 ◼   ► It's very—it's a very weird statement.

00:35:56 ◼   ► - Yeah, it sounds to me like this is a fact about

00:36:00 ◼   ► they're using more powerful graphics in here

00:36:03 ◼   ► and then attempting to, and we've seen this I think in a couple of his reports where

00:36:08 ◼   ► there's then attempt to explain how it might be used that's kind of a reach.

00:36:13 ◼   ► Yeah like this, there are so many hurdles about bringing this stuff like games to the Mac.

00:36:18 ◼   ► It just seems like such a weird statement to make but we'll see about that.

00:36:23 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:36:23 ◼   ► USB-C to be included?

00:36:25 ◼   ► Mm-hmm.

00:36:25 ◼   ► I was thinking about this, I really want USB-C power for my laptop because I have one of those

00:36:32 ◼   ► huge Anker batteries that I bought on Prime Day. I have had like little Mophies but I

00:36:38 ◼   ► got like that huge Anker thing which is basically like an Anker. It's massive. And that could

00:36:46 ◼   ► power my laptop. Right. I want that. Yeah I mean the USB-C power, the disadvantage is

00:36:54 ◼   ► it doesn't have the you know magnet release stuff that MagSafe has. But one of the advantages

00:36:59 ◼   ► is that it is no longer a connector that's licensed only by Apple and that you now have

00:37:05 ◼   ► any USB power source will work with it. I think one of the interesting questions about

00:37:11 ◼   ► USB-C on the MacBook Pros is what is the port configuration in general? Is it only USB-C?

00:37:20 ◼   ► Is it USB-C and USB 3?

00:37:26 ◼   ► Is there Thunderbolt?

00:37:28 ◼   ► And is it USB-C or is it Thunderbolt 3 USB-C?

00:37:31 ◼   ► There are a lot of questions about this because we're in a port transition now and I think

00:37:35 ◼   ► the question is, is this one of those MacBook Pro releases whenever it comes that is a rip

00:37:40 ◼   ► the band-aid off release where all the legacy ports just go away and you need adapters or

00:37:44 ◼   ► is it more, which I think would probably be the wisest path, is more of a transitional

00:37:49 ◼   ► form where they've got some traditional USB on there and they've got the new USB.

00:37:54 ◼   ► If they go USB-C only on the MacBook Pro, that would be crazy.

00:38:00 ◼   ► Yeah, well, there would be howls of protests, which is probably why they're not, because

00:38:04 ◼   ► pros have lots of USB things that they need to connect.

00:38:06 ◼   ► This should be half the way through, right? So instead of having two regular USB things,

00:38:11 ◼   ► you have one USB, one USB-C, right? So you're like slowly moving towards the USB-C standard.

00:38:17 ◼   ► And there's plenty of room for ports on the side of that thing.

00:38:20 ◼   ► Yeah.

00:38:20 ◼   ► You know.

00:38:21 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, you could have--

00:38:22 ◼   ► I mean, even if they gave me like one USB, two USB-C,

00:38:25 ◼   ► like, you know, like, don't take it away.

00:38:27 ◼   ► Help move me along this line.

00:38:29 ◼   ► But removing all of the existing I/O for this would--

00:38:33 ◼   ► that would-- yeah, that would be crazy.

00:38:34 ◼   ► Although if you want USB-C power,

00:38:36 ◼   ► you're going to need more than one USB-C port.

00:38:40 ◼   ► Yes.

00:38:41 ◼   ► Because what, like, two on the side, like two USB-C on one

00:38:44 ◼   ► side, one USB on the other, SD card, headphone jack? Well, and there's a question about video,

00:38:53 ◼   ► right? Because right now video comes out as Mini DisplayPort, which is also Thunderbolt.

00:38:58 ◼   ► If you did... It does have one Thunderbolt on it as well, probably. I would imagine so,

00:39:02 ◼   ► because you could also do Thunderbolt 3 through USB-C, but then you're gonna, I mean, Apple

00:39:07 ◼   ► will sell a bunch more adapters if they do that, right? Because you'll have to replace

00:39:11 ◼   ► all your old Thunderbolt video adapters, mini DisplayPort with USB-C Thunderbolt 3 video

00:39:16 ◼   ► adapters instead, which, I mean, that's not beyond Apple to do that. But, yeah, if I had

00:39:21 ◼   ► to make a guess, it would be that they'd introduce this new connection type while leaving the

00:39:25 ◼   ► old type there for one model year, basically, and then the next one would clear that stuff

00:39:32 ◼   ► away.

00:39:33 ◼   ► Yeah, we'll see. The I/O is going to be a real hot topic on this machine. I'm interested

00:39:40 ◼   ► to see what they do with it. The headphone jack will be very interesting. I think if

00:39:46 ◼   ► they remove it from the iPhone, they would probably take it off the Macbook just for

00:39:51 ◼   ► the sake of it, but I don't know. I hope that they don't because of what I do. I don't want

00:39:56 ◼   ► there to not be a headphone port on this because audio is my life.

00:40:00 ◼   ► Well I think Macbook Pro, also you've got the argument that they don't, they've got

00:40:04 ◼   ► space for a headphone jack. Yeah. And pros need latency-free, not re-encoded audio out

00:40:14 ◼   ► if they're a video or audio editor. So on a pro, I feel like these are the last devices

00:40:19 ◼   ► that Apple would make that would lose their headphone jack. I hope you're right. There's

00:40:23 ◼   ► too many reasons why pros need wired audio. This is my realization, is one, I use headphones

00:40:31 ◼   ► every day, but I don't use wired headphones on my iPhone every day. In fact, I very rarely

00:40:38 ◼   ► do these days, but I use wired headphones every day on my Mac. So I'm very attached

00:40:44 ◼   ► to wired headphones, but not on my iPhone so much as on my Mac. My Mac is where it's

00:40:52 ◼   ► important.

00:40:53 ◼   ► Touch ID? Excellent. Please.

00:40:55 ◼   ► Please? Sure. There aren't a lot of reasons why you'd need it on a Mac as much as an iPhone,

00:41:02 ◼   ► but just for me, 1Password on my Mac. I hate typing the password in now.

00:41:06 ◼   ► Yeah, I feel like it's unlocking your Mac and doing Apple Pay and doing 1Password and

00:41:13 ◼   ► things like that and having the ability to do that without. I think this stuff is starting

00:41:19 ◼   ► to migrate to Apple watches and to iPhones connected to your Mac, but that's also a hack

00:41:27 ◼   ► because your Mac is incapable of doing it itself. So this would be a start down that

00:41:31 ◼   ► path.

00:41:32 ◼   ► Yeah, I think that all of that stuff in Sierra is the fallback for when they implement Touch

00:41:35 ◼   ► ID. So they implement Touch ID and that is in Sierra, we just don't see it yet. And then

00:41:41 ◼   ► everybody that doesn't have the new MacBook Pro, which is the only model with a Touch

00:41:44 ◼   ► ID in, they can do all of this new stuff by using the old devices.

00:41:48 ◼   ► I think this is a really smart way of Apple doing this, like announcing the base level,

00:41:52 ◼   ► security stuff first, get people working to these new APIs so then as soon as the touch

00:41:57 ◼   ► ID is there it works immediately for everyone.

00:41:59 ◼   ► It's an interesting way of staging up to that when they usually do the reverse.

00:42:03 ◼   ► They announce the feature and then everyone can work backwards from there but instead

00:42:08 ◼   ► they're doing it in the other way which I quite like.

00:42:10 ◼   ► "Aren't likely to be debuted at the September event" is what German says.

00:42:16 ◼   ► Goemann sources are very good, but I just flat out disagree with this. I just think

00:42:20 ◼   ► that he's got that, he's got this wrong. And he's got, and the way it's phrased, it's possible

00:42:24 ◼   ► that he's talking to somebody who's like, "Yeah, I don't think they're gonna fit it

00:42:26 ◼   ► in." And that's like, okay, well, that's one person's opinion at Apple, but yeah, I think

00:42:30 ◼   ► it's, I think it makes no sense. When they took the time to talk about the iPad Pro,

00:42:36 ◼   ► the last one, they will take the time to talk about the MacBooks of this one. Yeah, also,

00:42:41 ◼   ► let's remember last year's event was packed. Last year's event, there was no October event,

00:42:44 ◼   ► there was no follow-on event. They could do one. They could do a Mac event. I felt like

00:42:49 ◼   ► we were done with Town Hall, but I don't think it's gonna happen. And that's why, because

00:42:55 ◼   ► I don't think they're gonna do a Mac event at a special venue, and I don't think they're

00:42:59 ◼   ► going back to Town Hall. And I don't think they want to unveil the Mac, a whole bunch

00:43:05 ◼   ► of new Mac models with just briefings and press releases, although they could do that.

00:43:10 ◼   ► this MacBook Pro. But that's exactly it. So I think what I would say is if you've got

00:43:15 ◼   ► new MacBook Pros, if it is tied into those features in Sierra, you have to take some

00:43:19 ◼   ► time at the September event to talk about Sierra. That is also the time that you talk

00:43:23 ◼   ► about your new Macs that are going to support all these great features in Sierra. And you

00:43:28 ◼   ► do that all at once and that is 20 or 30 minutes of your keynote and that's fine. You've got

00:43:34 ◼   ► two hours. It's a long time. This touch screen is true. There are no new iPads this time.

00:43:39 ◼   ► you said. No new Apple TV. No new iPads. It's a new iPhone. How much time do you need to

00:43:46 ◼   ► take on new iPhone and iOS 10? Especially when there really isn't going to be that much.

00:43:51 ◼   ► Like this iPhone. And a new Apple watch. But this iPhone is going to be more like the amount

00:43:55 ◼   ► of time they probably give to an S because everything that we've seen suggests that it's

00:43:59 ◼   ► going to be like an S release. And to go back to WWDC, I feel like they're going to structure

00:44:04 ◼   ► this as four platforms. So they're going to do an Apple TV update and say Apple TV is

00:44:08 ◼   ► great look at all the apps Olympics yay okay let's talk about watch OS oh look

00:44:13 ◼   ► cool new watch let's talk about let's talk about Mac OS oh hey new max and

00:44:18 ◼   ► let's talk about I iOS oh look new iPhone goodbye everybody right structure

00:44:23 ◼   ► it like that move through the product line and and drop your I mean imagine if

00:44:29 ◼   ► they just said like we have new max coming Phil Schiller comes on stage and

00:44:33 ◼   ► says new MacBook Pros, new Mac Pros, you know, new iMac update, you know, these are shipping

00:44:40 ◼   ► in October, these are shipping in November, goodbye everybody. I think it's perfectly

00:44:45 ◼   ► reasonable for them to do it that way. It's really funny to me because you and Gurbu were

00:44:49 ◼   ► kind of referencing the new Mac releases and you just did it then and both times you didn't

00:44:52 ◼   ► mention the Mac Mini. Pull Mac Mini. Chances that Mac Mini is going to get a stage call

00:44:58 ◼   ► out seems like almost non-existent, but it might happen. It will probably get a refresh

00:45:03 ◼   ► like the iMac will, like what's inside of it. It's not going to get anybody.

00:45:07 ◼   ► Well it's been two years, oh certainly not, but it's been two years but I feel like yeah,

00:45:11 ◼   ► every two or three years they will come in and just refresh the internals on the Mac

00:45:14 ◼   ► Mini because look if it didn't sell they wouldn't keep making them. It does sell, it serves

00:45:19 ◼   ► a purpose in the product line. Not every product is your star. Not every product needs to be

00:45:24 ◼   ► your star. We had this discussion with the iPhone SE, it's the same thing. It's like

00:45:28 ◼   ► the iPhone SE is doing pretty well for Apple but it's never going to be more than probably

00:45:33 ◼   ► 15% of the iPhone, 15-20% of the iPhone sales, that's fine. Mac Mini holds down an important

00:45:39 ◼   ► part or you know holds down a part, may not be an important part of the Mac product line,

00:45:43 ◼   ► it's good that it exists and every two or three years they put in just enough effort

00:45:47 ◼   ► to keep it on the price list.

00:45:50 ◼   ► I've had many, why are you mentioning many? Wait until next year as well? I mean I assume

00:45:56 ◼   ► so, they're not going to wrap that product on its own but that's getting pretty long

00:45:59 ◼   ► in the tooth.

00:46:00 ◼   ► - No, the iPad mini got updated last year

00:46:05 ◼   ► to match the iPad Air 2.

00:46:07 ◼   ► - Last September.

00:46:08 ◼   ► - Yeah, so it's been a year.

00:46:10 ◼   ► - Okay.

00:46:10 ◼   ► - And I feel like all the iPad stuff

00:46:12 ◼   ► is moving to the spring.

00:46:16 ◼   ► And so if that's the case, then I feel like the,

00:46:20 ◼   ► same thing, I feel like the iPad mini

00:46:21 ◼   ► is still gonna kick around.

00:46:23 ◼   ► It's got uses.

00:46:24 ◼   ► I know people who love the mini because they are,

00:46:27 ◼   ► like I used to be, somebody who,

00:46:29 ◼   ► where I went to the other extreme of the iPad line. The iPad mini I loved because it was

00:46:34 ◼   ► small it was super pocketable. I still know people who feel that way. It's a great iPad

00:46:40 ◼   ► for kids. Great. My son is an iPad mini user and he loves it. It is perfect for him. He

00:46:47 ◼   ► does not need a bigger iPad. So I think like the Mac mini it'll just kick around. It's

00:46:52 ◼   ► going to get updated every couple of years. It allows them to sell a brand new iPad for

00:46:58 ◼   ► on the cheap side and I think I think it'll just keep going around but it's

00:47:02 ◼   ► never going to be you know there was a moment when it was released where there

00:47:06 ◼   ► was like this iPad mini hysteria like this is going to be a huge this might be

00:47:10 ◼   ► the biggest iPad and I think that's not I think it's just a it's an edge case

00:47:14 ◼   ► iPad. Alright so that's that I mean looking to see I think we're going to

00:47:20 ◼   ► see in September I hope we do. I hope so. So we're a few weeks away. It doesn't have to ship in September in fact it almost certainly

00:47:25 ◼   ► wouldn't do it but later but we should see it last week we spoke about

00:47:31 ◼   ► pocketcasts now there's a new another new podcast application for iOS come out

00:47:36 ◼   ► this week Castro - you may remember Castro it was a great little app came

00:47:41 ◼   ► out with iOS 7 really beautiful design from super top and they have gone and

00:47:47 ◼   ► they've updated Castro what's a brand new app Castro - they've been working on

00:47:52 ◼   ► for a couple of years. I'm really happy to see it out. Supertop are a great company and

00:47:56 ◼   ► I want to spend some time talking about it because it is very different and very interesting.

00:48:02 ◼   ► I'll also put a link in the show notes to the Supertop podcast. They've created a podcast

00:48:08 ◼   ► of their own talking about the development of this product and it was very interesting

00:48:12 ◼   ► in the first episode to hear them talking about their kind of feelings coming up to

00:48:19 ◼   ► launch and hearing the kind of the doubt and stuffing them it was it was a very

00:48:23 ◼   ► interesting like episode like on the eve of a launcher for your application how

00:48:28 ◼   ► you feel so I'll put some links in the show for that for their podcast so let's

00:48:33 ◼   ► talk about Castro so the thing that makes Castro too different is the way

00:48:39 ◼   ► the app is built to manage your podcast queue and it does it in a way that no

00:48:45 ◼   ► other application does it and it has different methods of thinking about

00:48:50 ◼   ► managing shows and so the main thing is these that you have a list of all of the

00:48:56 ◼   ► shows that you're subscribed to all of the new episodes for those shows you

00:48:59 ◼   ► then triage them so you tap on the show you either archive it so you're not

00:49:03 ◼   ► gonna listen to it or you add it to the top or bottom of your playing queue

00:49:07 ◼   ► that's how it works so you effectively see all of your shows you triage them

00:49:12 ◼   ► don't want to this one one listen to this one next I'll listen to this one

00:49:14 ◼   ► later and you just go through them all and decide what you want to do every new show.

00:49:19 ◼   ► And what this does is it's really good for people that have lots of shows that they subscribe to

00:49:24 ◼   ► and it's also really good for if you have a show that sometimes you might be interested in

00:49:29 ◼   ► depending on the topic. So you can subscribe to it, it doesn't fill up your playing queue,

00:49:35 ◼   ► but now you can choose if you want to listen to that episode or not.

00:49:38 ◼   ► This is exactly how I am managing my podcasts right now in Overcast.

00:49:43 ◼   ► I subscribe to fundamentally massively more shows than I could ever listen to,

00:49:48 ◼   ► but I pick and choose depending on topic for some shows. So some shows I listen to every week,

00:49:52 ◼   ► in Overcast I have them bump up to the top of my list with the playlist preferences,

00:49:57 ◼   ► and then the rest of them I'll pick and choose depending on what I want to listen to.

00:50:00 ◼   ► But this is an application that is built around that, and as someone who looks at podcasts in the

00:50:05 ◼   ► in the way that I do, Castro has been built for me.

00:50:09 ◼   ► And I have to say, this is easily the very best way

00:50:13 ◼   ► that I have seen for managing a large podcast queue.

00:50:17 ◼   ► And it's now like my favorite paradigm

00:50:20 ◼   ► for how you deal with this stuff.

00:50:22 ◼   ► And I've got to say like, just fundamentally,

00:50:24 ◼   ► no matter what else we say, huge hats off to Supertop

00:50:28 ◼   ► for coming up with something new.

00:50:30 ◼   ► Podcast apps have been the same for 10 years,

00:50:34 ◼   ► and they have worked out a new way to manage that queue,

00:50:37 ◼   ► and it was a thing that I didn't know I needed or wanted this

00:50:40 ◼   ► until they showed it to me, and that's when design is great.

00:50:43 ◼   ► -Well, and I'm somebody who uses Overcast

00:50:46 ◼   ► with a single playlist. -Same.

00:50:47 ◼   ► That's how I do it. -And that's my queue.

00:50:50 ◼   ► And, you know, Marco Arment, who does Overcast,

00:50:56 ◼   ► had a nice tweet this week where he was, like,

00:50:58 ◼   ► applauding this app because it does something new and that that he you know

00:51:07 ◼   ► he really appreciates somebody who obviously sweats the details of podcast

00:51:10 ◼   ► apps and has thought about this a lot this is you know I like that he was

00:51:15 ◼   ► applauding a competitor but he's absolutely right to do it because they

00:51:19 ◼   ► are coming from like you said it's just it's good design they're coming at it

00:51:24 ◼   ► from a very opinionated point of view. They have a point of view. This is an app with

00:51:29 ◼   ► a point of view, which is, it's not a podcast app. It's a podcast app for you, for managing

00:51:35 ◼   ► your listening cue. And so it is best when you're somebody who wants to take control

00:51:42 ◼   ► of what you listen to next, probably listens to a lot of podcasts, probably has opinions

00:51:47 ◼   ► about which podcasts are higher priority and lower priority, and doesn't always listen

00:51:53 ◼   ► to all the episodes of all the podcasts that you subscribe to. I think if any of that rings

00:51:57 ◼   ► true to you, you need to look at Castro 2 because that's the beauty of it is, you subscribe

00:52:02 ◼   ► to podcasts and all it does is pour them into your inbox. And then you sit in your inbox

00:52:06 ◼   ► and go, "Wanna listen to that next? I wanna listen to that eventually. I don't wanna listen

00:52:11 ◼   ► to that. I don't wanna listen to that." And you triage that inbox and you clear out the

00:52:16 ◼   ► inbox. And at that point, your queue is filled up and it's filled up the way that you set

00:52:20 ◼   ► it to be filled, which is the high priority ones are going to play next, the lower priority

00:52:24 ◼   ► ones are at the bottom of the list, and the ones you archive, they never go in your list,

00:52:27 ◼   ► which is one of the things about overcast that does bother me is that sometimes I end

00:52:32 ◼   ► up doing pruning in the playlist because it adds every episode of a podcast and I'm like,

00:52:39 ◼   ► "I don't want to listen to that one." Because there is nothing wrong—I say this about

00:52:43 ◼   ► being comparable all the time—there is nothing wrong with not listening to every episode

00:52:47 ◼   ► of a podcast. People do it. Some people will listen to every episode from the beginning

00:52:51 ◼   ► and will then re-listen and those people, we love those people. But some podcasts, you

00:52:56 ◼   ► don't feel that way about it. You want to pick and choose and Caster is really good

00:53:00 ◼   ► at letting you pick and choose.

00:53:01 ◼   ► There are different types of shows. If someone listens to Upgrade, it would be weird for

00:53:05 ◼   ► me if they pick and choose what episodes to listen to. Because it is one kind of singular

00:53:11 ◼   ► topic we talk about which tends to be Apple-focused technology. So it runs through. But with The

00:53:16 ◼   ► incomparable. If you don't like a movie or have no interest, I've never seen it, then

00:53:20 ◼   ► you pick and choose from – you know what I mean?

00:53:23 ◼   ► Incomparable by design almost is a pick and choose podcast because I don't – I didn't

00:53:28 ◼   ► want to do one podcast about one topic. I wanted it to jump all over the place. As a

00:53:33 ◼   ► result, when people are apologetic, when they say, "Oh, I don't listen to every episode

00:53:38 ◼   ► of the –" it's like, unless you're me, I'm not surprised, right? I pick what

00:53:43 ◼   ► I'm interested in, I expect everybody else to pick and choose and be like, "Yeah, this

00:53:46 ◼   ► is about comics. I don't care about that. I'm not going to listen to that one. Oh, this

00:53:50 ◼   ► one's about Star Wars. I want to listen to that."

00:53:51 ◼   ► It's the difference of topic-focused shows and use-focused shows.

00:53:54 ◼   ► Yeah, exactly.

00:53:55 ◼   ► But anyway, we're digging in the weeds again.

00:53:57 ◼   ► Or there are interview shows that I'll listen to the interviews with people that I'm interested

00:54:01 ◼   ► in.

00:54:02 ◼   ► So when I was doing "Inquisitive," that was so true. People would just -- if you had no

00:54:06 ◼   ► interest in a person, you just didn't listen to their episode. Like, I used to get that

00:54:09 ◼   ► of time and it's one of the problems of doing a show like that it's difficult

00:54:13 ◼   ► because you don't actually know who's listening you see the numbers but the

00:54:16 ◼   ► numbers aren't accurate anyway so wait wait again in so some of my issues with

00:54:20 ◼   ► Castro it doesn't support chapters which which people people do like it doesn't

00:54:25 ◼   ► have a now playing screen per se with like show art and controls the show art

00:54:30 ◼   ► is like kind of sequestered to the bottom right in the little now playing

00:54:34 ◼   ► bar yeah there's a little bar app it it just gives you playback stuff yeah and

00:54:38 ◼   ► it's got an animation of a waveform that's not a real waveform and it doesn't make sense

00:54:44 ◼   ► because the waves keep traveling from the right, which is the end of the podcast, to

00:54:48 ◼   ► the left, and I get what they're trying to do there, but it's like an infinite fake waveform

00:54:53 ◼   ► that goes.

00:54:54 ◼   ► The idea is it's easy to seek, so you can tap and drag to seek through the show. I mean,

00:54:59 ◼   ► that's why they do it that way.

00:55:01 ◼   ► I get that, but the animation is showing something that's not real. It's showing, because it's

00:55:06 ◼   ► the not to again we're down in the weeds here but like the left side is the start

00:55:10 ◼   ► of the podcast and the right side is the end of the podcast but the waves keep

00:55:13 ◼   ► streaming off the right edge of the of the podcast like they're coming from I

00:55:17 ◼   ► don't even know where from beyond the end of the podcast which just as a

00:55:20 ◼   ► metaphor it doesn't work for me I think that's a mistake and the fact that

00:55:23 ◼   ► they're fake waves and the fact that there's a beautiful show art that you

00:55:26 ◼   ► can't see and instead the sleep timer and the you know 1x 2x they're given too

00:55:32 ◼   ► much prominence in the app. Like, there's no need to see those sliders so much.

00:55:36 ◼   ► Yeah. You're saying it has a point of view, which I really agree with Kasia too,

00:55:42 ◼   ► has a point of view. This is one of the points of view that I don't agree with.

00:55:45 ◼   ► Yeah, I just disagree with it. Which is fine. I mean, that's why they

00:55:49 ◼   ► make more than one flavor of ice cream, right? It kind of has two big points of view,

00:55:53 ◼   ► which is how you manage your shows and then the idea of the now playing screen.

00:55:56 ◼   ► Which is essentially that it's not important. It's too difficult to get to show notes

00:55:59 ◼   ► for my liking. You can get to them, you have to tap like twice and we are...

00:56:04 ◼   ► And I get their argument that on the lock screen you see the show art and the controls

00:56:08 ◼   ► and they just use the lock screen. Honestly, I don't think people need to see

00:56:11 ◼   ► this. If the show art's not changing, which they don't seem to support because they don't

00:56:15 ◼   ► support chapters... Right. I don't know, I like it.

00:56:17 ◼   ► You don't need to see the show art every single week.

00:56:20 ◼   ► It makes me happy to see the show art and know which show I'm listening to and it's

00:56:25 ◼   ► a reminder and sometimes they change the art and I enjoy it.

00:56:27 ◼   ► - There's a lot of that in the bottom right,

00:56:28 ◼   ► like just seeing the tiny little icon, I recognize it,

00:56:31 ◼   ► but my feeling is that the description

00:56:33 ◼   ► and all the show notes take too many taps to get to.

00:56:36 ◼   ► - That's true.

00:56:37 ◼   ► And then the other thing that I'll just say is

00:56:39 ◼   ► their increased speed algorithm,

00:56:44 ◼   ► I don't know whether they put any work into it

00:56:46 ◼   ► or if they're just using core audio,

00:56:47 ◼   ► but it sounds like they're just using core audio,

00:56:50 ◼   ► which means even at every speed that's not 1X,

00:56:53 ◼   ► there are artifacts, it sounds weird.

00:56:56 ◼   ► So they have no silence trimming, like overcast, they have no, like pocketcast, no strip silence,

00:57:02 ◼   ► no, not strip silence, smart speed.

00:57:05 ◼   ► Nor are they making, as far as I can tell, an effort to really smooth out the sound when

00:57:11 ◼   ► you're playing at higher than 1x.

00:57:13 ◼   ► No volume boosting.

00:57:15 ◼   ► And I was listening to the Supertop podcast in Castro and it wasn't loud enough.

00:57:23 ◼   ► levels are too quiet on the show and I'm used to now overcast and pocketcasts, they have

00:57:31 ◼   ► audio boosting which that's actually really good because audio leveling is difficult to

00:57:37 ◼   ► do, lots of people get it right, lots of people get it wrong and it's nice when an application

00:57:42 ◼   ► can kind of just give it a kick up and help you.

00:57:46 ◼   ► Especially because really the iPhone doesn't go that loud, like the maximum volume of the

00:57:50 ◼   ► the iPhone is sometimes not loud enough and applications that help boost the audio is

00:57:56 ◼   ► good. So there's a couple of things.

00:57:57 ◼   ► So for me, the inability to have it sound good at a higher than 1x speed isn't the deal

00:58:02 ◼   ► breaker that makes me not want to use this app?

00:58:04 ◼   ► That's not my deal breaker, funnily enough. And I think that is the deal breaker for so

00:58:07 ◼   ► many people is that it doesn't have any smart speed stuff. I could let that go. So looking

00:58:15 ◼   ► Looking at Pocket Cast and Overcast, for me they're similar enough that it wasn't like

00:58:21 ◼   ► in my mind why would I have switched.

00:58:24 ◼   ► Pocket Cast is very nice and I like it a lot and it's great for cross platform but there

00:58:29 ◼   ► wasn't a one feature that it has that Overcast doesn't have and vice versa.

00:58:35 ◼   ► So for me it was just like wherever you fall in that is fine and it's like what is your

00:58:39 ◼   ► preferred design effectively.

00:58:42 ◼   ► Castro has the feature.

00:58:45 ◼   ► It has the feature that makes me want to move, which is the way that you do this stuff, right?

00:58:51 ◼   ► So it makes me want to switch because I love their main thinking about how you manage your

00:58:59 ◼   ► podcast queue.

00:59:01 ◼   ► But it doesn't have an iPad app.

00:59:03 ◼   ► That is my deal breaker.

00:59:05 ◼   ► There is no iPad application and I am an outlier here in that these days I'm mostly streaming

00:59:12 ◼   ► shows and I'm mostly listening on my iPads because I'm at home and I'm listening to my

00:59:16 ◼   ► podcasts the most and the iPads have such fantastic speakers I prefer to listen on those

00:59:23 ◼   ► than on my iPhone. Way louder, sounds incredible. All podcasts sound fantastic on the iPads

00:59:31 ◼   ► with the four speakers. It has no iPad app and because they have no apps on any other

00:59:37 ◼   ► platform they have no sync system so I can't even use the iPhone app on my iPad

00:59:42 ◼   ► because I can't keep them in sync right and I get why they don't have a sync

00:59:46 ◼   ► system why do they need it if it's just an iPhone app but I really want to see

00:59:50 ◼   ► an iPad application to this because I absolutely love their thinking and also

00:59:56 ◼   ► the design is great it looks great have you tried the dark and light mode

01:00:01 ◼   ► switching gesture yeah it's incredible like you just pull down from the two

01:00:06 ◼   ► fingers but it follows you and the design, the art, you can change the interface design

01:00:12 ◼   ► like the color of the interface like as you're moving your fingers up and down with the two

01:00:17 ◼   ► fingers it's incredible. That's a nice touch. Twitterific has that gesture but it doesn't,

01:00:24 ◼   ► it cross fades. It just does, like you do it once and it just switches on and off but

01:00:29 ◼   ► this is, it follows your fingers up and down. It's fantastic. It looks great. I love it.

01:00:34 ◼   ► Yeah, there are a lot of great things about it.

01:00:36 ◼   ► One's kind of selfish-y thing as a podcast producer. I think they really haven't done

01:00:40 ◼   ► a good job with the directory at all.

01:00:43 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:00:44 ◼   ► And I've spoken to Oisin about this, and they were like, "I hope he doesn't mind me saying

01:00:48 ◼   ► this." This was one thing that they just wanted to get out and they're going to work on it

01:00:52 ◼   ► later. But the directory, all it's doing is pulling from the iTunes top charts, which

01:00:56 ◼   ► I hate that. I hate that.

01:00:58 ◼   ► Yeah, I mean, I didn't want to go into that in the little article I wrote about it yesterday,

01:01:03 ◼   ► I'm a podcaster, it can come across as sour grapes, but I will say as a podcast listener,

01:01:09 ◼   ► their charts are the most boring charts. It is literally just, I mean, it's actually great

01:01:13 ◼   ► if you're somebody who's never listened to a podcast and want to know about what are

01:01:17 ◼   ► the most popular podcasts. It's every podcast you've ever heard of that you could name it.

01:01:22 ◼   ► If you're a podcast listener, you could write down 50 names and you would, and they would

01:01:27 ◼   ► be the 50 that are in there because it's just the most obvious ones.

01:01:31 ◼   ► - The server cast does a really good job

01:01:33 ◼   ► like with the social recommendations and stuff like that.

01:01:35 ◼   ► Pocket cast do a incredible job with their like curated,

01:01:39 ◼   ► they have someone who picks the stuff.

01:01:42 ◼   ► - I know, right?

01:01:42 ◼   ► - And puts it in there and highlights.

01:01:44 ◼   ► I think that they do a bit, in my opinion,

01:01:46 ◼   ► pocket cast does a better job than Apple does.

01:01:48 ◼   ► Sorry, sorry.

01:01:49 ◼   ► - I feel like there's something,

01:01:51 ◼   ► and I think Apple won't do this

01:01:52 ◼   ► because Apple would feel like they're making or breaking.

01:01:54 ◼   ► You know, that one of the reasons Apple takes a light touch

01:01:56 ◼   ► with a lot of the things we do,

01:01:58 ◼   ► we were talking about this last night,

01:01:59 ◼   ► that on not a podcast, in life, not available on iTunes.

01:02:03 ◼   ► - Only for members, if you find this in the corner.

01:02:05 ◼   ► - Like Apple is so, with Apple Music,

01:02:09 ◼   ► Apple is making these great decisions

01:02:11 ◼   ► about like what music to highlight

01:02:13 ◼   ► and building playlists and things like that,

01:02:14 ◼   ► and they do such a good job at that,

01:02:16 ◼   ► and yet on the App Store, they're afraid to play favorites

01:02:19 ◼   ► and have a point of view, and as a result,

01:02:21 ◼   ► App Store features and recommendations are kind of boring,

01:02:25 ◼   ► and I actually kind of wish they had more of a point of view

01:02:28 ◼   ► like Apple Music does. And with podcasts, I feel like it's the same way. It's like they

01:02:33 ◼   ► feel they're so powerful that they don't want to play favorites too much. They have features

01:02:37 ◼   ► and stuff like that. I feel like there's an opportunity for someone somehow to do something

01:02:42 ◼   ► with podcasts probably needs to be in association with an app. Because I've thought about doing

01:02:48 ◼   ► this and I don't have the time to do it, but I wonder if there's somebody who could do

01:02:54 ◼   ► a really good pick list and a custom playlist of podcast episodes. Some people have tried

01:03:01 ◼   ► it on blogs and stuff like that, but I just wonder if there's something there, because

01:03:04 ◼   ► curated podcasting and curated podcast episodes is something that is going to happen and kind

01:03:11 ◼   ► of needs to happen, but it's just not there.

01:03:13 ◼   ► And it would really work for Castro because they do a better job than any app that I've

01:03:16 ◼   ► seen of adding one episode of one show.

01:03:19 ◼   ► Right.

01:03:20 ◼   ► you can search in the list and when you go in on the directories that see they have all the

01:03:26 ◼   ► underpinnings of a great directory just the face of it is not good because if you click into a show

01:03:30 ◼   ► you can view every episode they show the first one on the last one you can expand them look at them

01:03:35 ◼   ► all and then add that one individual show to your queue list at the top or bottom but you don't then

01:03:41 ◼   ► subscribe to the show you just get that one episode like Marco does this with Overcast but you end up

01:03:46 ◼   ► with that show, always living in there. Yeah, it's like a little phantom show that you're

01:03:50 ◼   ► not subscribed to, but it lives in the list. And I don't like that. I agree with you. So,

01:03:55 ◼   ► one of the reasons I knew this was happening is when I did my export to Castro, I was subscribed

01:04:01 ◼   ► to a bunch of, I was like, "What is this?" It's because I added that one episode. Yeah,

01:04:05 ◼   ► so imagine something that's kind of like the Castro inbox, that is somebody's opinionated

01:04:11 ◼   ► and have multiple ones of these available, somebody's opinionated list of podcast episodes

01:04:17 ◼   ► that they think are worth listening to.

01:04:19 ◼   ► Because as well, one of the--

01:04:20 ◼   ► And then you graze through that and go, "Yes, yes, yes."

01:04:21 ◼   ► It could really work with all the stuff that Cash Show's doing, because when you star an

01:04:25 ◼   ► episode, you have a hall of fame, basically. In the application, there is a, "Here are

01:04:30 ◼   ► all the episodes you've starred." So like Marco does the recommend. I would love to

01:04:35 ◼   ► see all of the shows I've ever recommended. And another thing I like in Cash Show is they

01:04:39 ◼   ► They have a history, so you can click the history

01:04:41 ◼   ► and see every show you ever listened to.

01:04:43 ◼   ► Again, it's like all this stuff is like,

01:04:45 ◼   ► they have built the underpinnings of a,

01:04:48 ◼   ► what I think, if they continue going down this road,

01:04:51 ◼   ► they're able to go cross-platform eventually.

01:04:53 ◼   ► I know this stuff is hard to do.

01:04:54 ◼   ► - It's hard, yeah.

01:04:55 ◼   ► - They could be, I think, sitting on the best app.

01:04:59 ◼   ► But they've got, to get there,

01:05:02 ◼   ► they have a lot of work ahead of them.

01:05:03 ◼   ► - And all of these apps have made their choices, right?

01:05:06 ◼   ► So none of them is perfect.

01:05:09 ◼   ► All of them have, like Castro has made these choices

01:05:12 ◼   ► about what they want to be good at,

01:05:13 ◼   ► but then they're not on the iPad and they don't sync

01:05:16 ◼   ► and they aren't cross platform.

01:05:17 ◼   ► Overcast Marco has focused on audio stuff

01:05:20 ◼   ► and he was miles ahead of everybody else

01:05:23 ◼   ► by focusing on volume boost, smart speed

01:05:25 ◼   ► and his deconstructing his audio player

01:05:29 ◼   ► so that when it plays at high speed, it sounds listenable.

01:05:31 ◼   ► I never listened to podcasts faster than 1X

01:05:34 ◼   ► before Overcast because it sounded terrible to me.

01:05:38 ◼   ► Just the artifacts, not the speed of it,

01:05:41 ◼   ► the artifacts made it sound terrible.

01:05:42 ◼   ► - And they're using the crackling.

01:05:44 ◼   ► - And then--

01:05:45 ◼   ► - Pocket Caster basically built the great feature set

01:05:50 ◼   ► everywhere, that's their thing.

01:05:52 ◼   ► They have an incredible application on all platforms,

01:05:56 ◼   ► including the web, right?

01:05:57 ◼   ► That is their thing.

01:05:59 ◼   ► And no one, I don't think there will ever be

01:06:02 ◼   ► another company that can touch them.

01:06:03 ◼   ► So push all of that stuff together

01:06:06 ◼   ► and you've got the perfect podcast client maybe,

01:06:09 ◼   ► but instead, and that's why innovation,

01:06:11 ◼   ► to take this all the way back around and wrap it up.

01:06:14 ◼   ► That's why innovation is important.

01:06:16 ◼   ► I saw Marco Arment comment about this today.

01:06:18 ◼   ► We'd liken it to the Twitter UI playground thing

01:06:21 ◼   ► that Gruber said way back when,

01:06:23 ◼   ► and it's definitely true that you're seeing it in podcasts.

01:06:25 ◼   ► And what Marco said was,

01:06:26 ◼   ► this is what happens when you have open standards.

01:06:28 ◼   ► When you have open standards like RSS for podcasts,

01:06:31 ◼   ► you get different takes on the interface for it instead of a single take from a single

01:06:35 ◼   ► platform vendor. And that's the beauty of the way that this is working is you can have

01:06:41 ◼   ► Castro with a completely different take on podcasting than Overcast and PocketCasts.

01:06:46 ◼   ► And I hope it continues. I mean, they experimented with a patronage model for Castro 1.5. This

01:06:51 ◼   ► one is no in-app purchase. It's $5 to get it.

01:06:54 ◼   ► Just go buy it and play with it.

01:06:56 ◼   ► If you love podcasts, you should probably buy it and play with it because even if you

01:06:59 ◼   ► decide not to keep using it you will have supported the development of

01:07:02 ◼   ► innovative podcast apps and I think that that's good for all podcasts.

01:07:07 ◼   ► I'll tell you, PocketCasts and Overcast, you will see and this is not, I'm not

01:07:12 ◼   ► saying anything negative about them, this is how it works. This is why

01:07:16 ◼   ► PocketCasts has features that were inspired by Overcast.

01:07:19 ◼   ► PocketCasts and Overcast will have features inspired by Castro at some

01:07:22 ◼   ► point because you can't not look at that and go, "Oh wow, that's a really good..." and

01:07:27 ◼   ► even if it's not the same, even if it just spurs Russell and Marco and anybody else who's

01:07:33 ◼   ► developing podcast apps, just spurs them to think, "How would I do that? What problem

01:07:37 ◼   ► are they solving and how would I solve that?" That's good for all the podcast apps and the

01:07:42 ◼   ► more diversity of innovation and applications and points of view onto something like podcast

01:07:51 ◼   ► apps or any other thing, it makes the whole ecosystem stronger.

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01:09:59 ◼   ► says it all it's not like lasers or Myke was right or anything like that just upgrade upgrade

01:10:06 ◼   ► it's the way to go so last week we spoke about um some interviews that apple were doing with the

01:10:11 ◼   ► press and this there's more this week tim cook did a much larger interview with washington post yeah

01:10:20 ◼   ► why are they doing these right now so i have i have three potential reasons some theories and

01:10:28 ◼   ► and I want to see what your thoughts on them are.

01:10:31 ◼   ► It's Tim's five years as CEO.

01:10:34 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:10:35 ◼   ► - It is the five year anniversary of Steve Jobs' passing.

01:10:38 ◼   ► - Yep.

01:10:39 ◼   ► - And they're trying to steer the narrative

01:10:41 ◼   ► post two bad earnings calls.

01:10:43 ◼   ► - Yeah.

01:10:44 ◼   ► - I think it's a combination of all three of those things.

01:10:47 ◼   ► - I think that's exactly it.

01:10:49 ◼   ► I think it's a slow news month,

01:10:52 ◼   ► so they have a receptive audience in journalists.

01:10:56 ◼   ► - And nothing to give them.

01:10:57 ◼   ► and nothing to give them.

01:10:58 ◼   ► Prepping for, I think they're laying the groundwork

01:11:02 ◼   ► for September because they want to get out

01:11:07 ◼   ► their own narrative, which is that Apple's just fine.

01:11:10 ◼   ► Which, I mean, honestly, Apple is fine.

01:11:12 ◼   ► It's interesting because they're trying to combat

01:11:16 ◼   ► some of the kind of bearishness on Apple

01:11:19 ◼   ► based on those results.

01:11:21 ◼   ► I think that's part of it.

01:11:22 ◼   ► I think the five years as CEO is part of it.

01:11:25 ◼   ► And so, yes, I think it's all those things.

01:11:30 ◼   ► I think, I don't think Apple is super actively combating

01:11:35 ◼   ► this Apple is doomed narrative

01:11:37 ◼   ► because the Apple is doomed narrative's always been there

01:11:39 ◼   ► and it's kind of dumb.

01:11:41 ◼   ► And it's always been dumb.

01:11:43 ◼   ► Since Jobs came back, it was doomed, almost doomed in '97.

01:11:47 ◼   ► But I mean, it's been dumb,

01:11:48 ◼   ► very dumb for a very long time.

01:11:50 ◼   ► So I think it's all of those things.

01:11:53 ◼   ► I think this is also Steve Dowling,

01:11:55 ◼   ► the new head of PR at Apple. Trying new stuff, like trying different stuff. This is something

01:12:01 ◼   ► that if you're viewing this from a Katie Cotton perspective, not to get all insider-y on you,

01:12:06 ◼   ► but Katie Cotton was the head of all PR and marketing, or you know, all PR and communications,

01:12:13 ◼   ► working for working directly for Steve, I think, not even working for Phil. And if she

01:12:18 ◼   ► was working for Phil, she was still working directly for Steve, let's be honest. That's

01:12:22 ◼   ► my understanding is that Katie really worked closely with Steve. So Steve Dowling is now

01:12:27 ◼   ► in charge, who was head of corporate PR, which was more like handling Steve Jobs and other

01:12:34 ◼   ► executives and not the product PR. And he and Natalie Karras, who was the head of product

01:12:40 ◼   ► PR, both vied to get this job. And Steve Dowling got it. Natalie Karras left, went to Twitter.

01:12:45 ◼   ► She's now left Twitter. She's now on a vacation in Italy, which is a good career move there

01:12:51 ◼   ► to want us late like take take some time go to Italy that's beautiful so so Steve Dowling

01:12:57 ◼   ► is now in charge and I don't know you're in charge of something like Apple PR and you've watched

01:13:05 ◼   ► how it worked under Katie and with Steve Jobs and now you've got Tim and an opening you know a

01:13:12 ◼   ► feeling of let's try different things let's be different let's we can grow and change and you

01:13:17 ◼   ► and you want to make your own mark. And we've seen it in how Apple does events. I mean,

01:13:22 ◼   ► in so many different ways, Apple has thrown away their old rule book for dealing with

01:13:26 ◼   ► the public and the press. So why not this stuff, right? So I think if you were to bring

01:13:31 ◼   ► it back around, if you were looking at this under the Katie Cotton playbook, you would

01:13:34 ◼   ► be like, oh, geez, what are they? All of this is super tactical. They are very specifically

01:13:39 ◼   ► addressing certain things. Maybe they're trying to exact revenge on certain news organizations

01:13:45 ◼   ► that they're not going to give this to. I mean you could come up with a whole list of

01:13:48 ◼   ► things that Apple used to do. I don't know if any of those are really accurate. I think

01:13:53 ◼   ► this is a, you know, let's keep ourselves in the public eye. We've got some, we've got

01:13:57 ◼   ► a quiet month to make some noise about how great we are. We do want to offset some of

01:14:02 ◼   ► the feelings about Apple that are negative. Although again, I think that was much more

01:14:08 ◼   ► true after the previous quarterly earnings and not this most recent one because the stock

01:14:12 ◼   ► actually did okay. I think the narrative isn t as brutal for Apple as it was three months

01:14:18 ◼   ► ago where people did that one report and the stock result and freaked out. So, I don t

01:14:25 ◼   ► know. Yeah, I think it s a combination of all those things. I m much actually I m much

01:14:28 ◼   ► less interested in the Kremlinology of this than just in the fact that we got in the Washington

01:14:32 ◼   ► Post story. We got some interesting bits from Tim. I mean, he s super on message and yet

01:14:39 ◼   ► But between this and the Fast Company story, I mean, there was good stuff.

01:14:44 ◼   ► I think this Washington Post story was a better read than the Fast Company story.

01:14:47 ◼   ► There was more information in this one.

01:14:49 ◼   ► The Fast Company story was more like a little story that was being told.

01:14:53 ◼   ► The Fast Company story was a better story for people who don't know a lot about Apple

01:15:00 ◼   ► and wanted to get sort of some reassurance about like, "Apple's fine, here's what it's

01:15:04 ◼   ► like at Apple, isn't this cool?"

01:15:05 ◼   ► Washington Post story is, which is funny because Fast Company is a business publication, you'd

01:15:10 ◼   ► expect that these would be reversed and the Washington Post would be the one. When I said

01:15:15 ◼   ► reversed, Myke and I both did a little hand gesture of flipping our fingers opposite direction.

01:15:20 ◼   ► It probably happens all the time, but we can't see it when we're not in person. Washington

01:15:24 ◼   ► Post story is much more nitty-gritty with tidbits about what Apple's doing than the

01:15:30 ◼   ► Fast Company story was. So that Fast Company was more of a gloss, and this is, I mean,

01:15:35 ◼   ► down to the point where she's got like four or five paragraphs and then it's just like

01:15:39 ◼   ► here's the Q&A and it just drops into a Q&A of like let's just here's what Tim Cook said.

01:15:44 ◼   ► Pure like information. Yeah. Right. So there isn't really anything new here but it's interesting

01:15:51 ◼   ► to hear Tim's words on something. It's all the color, the details. Yep. That's where

01:15:57 ◼   ► it gets interesting because all of this, because they're never going to say anything secret,

01:16:01 ◼   ► All of this is about what they're emphasizing, what the details are, and how we can read

01:16:07 ◼   ► that to make us understand what they're thinking.

01:16:10 ◼   ► Like there was a bunch of stuff about tax reform, which I found fascinating because

01:16:15 ◼   ► Apple is in such a unique and weird position when it comes to taxes.

01:16:19 ◼   ► They appear to be, and they say they are following the laws, but the laws are fundamentally weird

01:16:25 ◼   ► and broken.

01:16:26 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:16:27 ◼   ► And they don't deny that, which I think is an interesting take.

01:16:28 ◼   ► Cook testified before Congress. He said as much. And I think that's a really interesting

01:16:33 ◼   ► take that Apple has.

01:16:34 ◼   ► Lewis: Yeah, it's like, we're taking advantage of the legal loopholes that you have allowed

01:16:37 ◼   ► to be created because of the bad corporation tax rules in America.

01:16:41 ◼   ► O'Reilly: And you should probably fix them.

01:16:42 ◼   ► Lewis; And we'll bring our money back.

01:16:43 ◼   ► O'Reilly; And that's part of their argument is, we pay billions of dollars in taxes. I

01:16:47 ◼   ► think they said we're the largest taxpayer in the United States.

01:16:50 ◼   ► Lewis; Which doesn't, I mean, that's logical because they make the most money.

01:16:53 ◼   ► - Right, right, but it's like, you know,

01:16:55 ◼   ► there is a feeling like the big companies

01:16:58 ◼   ► and rich people often are the ones

01:17:00 ◼   ► who are best equipped to avoid paying tax,

01:17:03 ◼   ► and then everybody else pays the tax,

01:17:04 ◼   ► but Apple's saying, "No, no, we pay the tax."

01:17:06 ◼   ► And then, again, I like that Tim Cook is not just saying,

01:17:09 ◼   ► "Look, do what you want.

01:17:10 ◼   ► "If you change the rules, we'll follow the new rules."

01:17:13 ◼   ► He's like, "No, you should change the rules."

01:17:15 ◼   ► And one of those arguments is about repatriating money,

01:17:18 ◼   ► bringing that money back to the US from overseas,

01:17:22 ◼   ► And their argument is, we made that money overseas,

01:17:25 ◼   ► we could leave it overseas.

01:17:27 ◼   ► If you change the tax law to make it more reasonable

01:17:30 ◼   ► for us to bring it home,

01:17:31 ◼   ► we could bring it home and spend it at home.

01:17:33 ◼   ► So his argument is, this is essentially the quid pro quo,

01:17:38 ◼   ► which is if you change the tax law

01:17:41 ◼   ► so it isn't ridiculously expensive

01:17:43 ◼   ► for us to bring our money back,

01:17:45 ◼   ► then we'll bring the money back.

01:17:46 ◼   ► And when we bring the money here, we spend it here.

01:17:48 ◼   ► So that's the benefit to the United States, is you may not get as much tax as you would

01:17:54 ◼   ► if we brought it back, but below a certain point we'll bring it back.

01:17:57 ◼   ► And above a certain point, we're just never going to bring it back home.

01:18:00 ◼   ► So it's negotiating and all of that.

01:18:03 ◼   ► What I find really fascinating, read between the lines, and he said this before, is there

01:18:06 ◼   ► will be tax reform in 2017.

01:18:08 ◼   ► And I get the sense that, because we know he's politically well-connected, he did the

01:18:12 ◼   ► fundraiser for Paul Ryan, he's doing a fundraiser for Hillary Clinton, I think Tim Cook has

01:18:18 ◼   ► has been told in Washington off the record by Democrats and Republicans that there's

01:18:24 ◼   ► totally a deal that's going to be done here after the presidential election.

01:18:27 ◼   ► I think Tim is telling the presidential candidates that there will be tax reform in 2017.

01:18:33 ◼   ► No I think he knows.

01:18:35 ◼   ► Tim Cook is one of the most powerful men in the world.

01:18:37 ◼   ► I think he's heard from the – I think when he went to Washington he heard from the people

01:18:42 ◼   ► in Washington that once this presidential election is over, they will, no matter who

01:18:48 ◼   ► wins, they will do something to address the tax stuff. It sounds like both parties, what

01:18:53 ◼   ► he said is, both parties are actually interested in fixing this messed up tax code stuff. And

01:19:01 ◼   ► then in Europe, I don't know enough about the European policy stuff, but he painted

01:19:05 ◼   ► that, and this may be disingenuous or it may be completely legit, the way he portrayed

01:19:10 ◼   ► that whole thing about the European Union and Ireland's tax code is he said look they're

01:19:15 ◼   ► not even arguing about how much tax we should pay they're arguing about who gets the money.

01:19:19 ◼   ► So let them squabble about that which I thought was an interesting take on that.

01:19:23 ◼   ► It seems like from reading that and the little I know about it this is a problem between

01:19:27 ◼   ► Ireland and the European Union as opposed to Apple and the European Union. But the European

01:19:32 ◼   ► Union think that Ireland gave Apple a special deal which Tim is denying.

01:19:36 ◼   ► Yeah, yeah that sounds about right.

01:19:39 ◼   ► So I want to touch on a few other things that he mentioned.

01:19:41 ◼   ► Social responsibility.

01:19:43 ◼   ► This is, I've mentioned this before about how I believe Apple Incorporated to be a better

01:19:47 ◼   ► company under Tim Cook than it was under Steve Jobs.

01:19:52 ◼   ► Take out the products, all of that stuff, like just as a company, as a thing in the

01:19:56 ◼   ► world that you do better, their environmental stuff is better.

01:20:01 ◼   ► He touches a lot on coming out as being gay and talking about the importance of all of

01:20:05 ◼   ► that.

01:20:06 ◼   ► things are Apple as a company and how they show themselves to the world and I think Tim

01:20:11 ◼   ► does an incredible job of that. You know, things like, they didn't mention this, but

01:20:15 ◼   ► when he changed the employee contributions program for charities and stuff, like it didn't

01:20:19 ◼   ► really exist before and Tim did a lot of these things. And you talk about that, they talk

01:20:23 ◼   ► about the billionth iPhone as well and it's fun to me that throughout the interview that

01:20:27 ◼   ► the iPhone is sitting on Tim's desk. What are they going to do with that? Does he keep

01:20:31 ◼   ► that? They've put like a Kincaid in something?

01:20:34 ◼   ► put that in the Apple Museum that they're building on the new campus.

01:20:41 ◼   ► Yeah, but right now it just sits on his desk. It's a paperweight.

01:20:44 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:20:45 ◼   ► I want to, and now I have like a bunch of quotes that I want to read because I just

01:20:48 ◼   ► think they're interesting.

01:20:49 ◼   ► Okay.

01:20:50 ◼   ► So on earnings, we got 60 billion in revenue and they said you can't grow anymore from

01:20:54 ◼   ► this. Well, last year we were 230 billion and yes, we're coming down some this year.

01:20:59 ◼   ► Every year isn't an up. I've heard it all before. In today's products, we have services

01:21:04 ◼   ► which over the last 12 months grew about 4 billion

01:21:06 ◼   ► to over 23 billion.

01:21:08 ◼   ► Next year we said it's gonna be a Fortune 100 company.

01:21:10 ◼   ► So there's a couple of things here.

01:21:12 ◼   ► I don't recall those numbers, 4 billion, 23 billion,

01:21:14 ◼   ► like kind of putting them in that context

01:21:17 ◼   ► is really interesting.

01:21:18 ◼   ► And I just love the quote of like,

01:21:21 ◼   ► every year is an up, you know, I've heard this all before.

01:21:24 ◼   ► How candid he is and kind of just like flippant

01:21:27 ◼   ► is very interesting to me.

01:21:29 ◼   ► That is a confident CEO in the future of his company.

01:21:33 ◼   ► They're like, "Yeah, it goes up and down,

01:21:34 ◼   ► "but the thing was, we went up, up, up, up, up, up

01:21:37 ◼   ► "for longer than anybody else has.

01:21:39 ◼   ► "Now we're just gonna be in the up and down period."

01:21:41 ◼   ► And I can get on board with that, right?

01:21:43 ◼   ► Like if he's thinking that way, it's like,

01:21:44 ◼   ► yeah, now they're running like any company does,

01:21:47 ◼   ► but they've established that their kind of regular position

01:21:52 ◼   ► is monstrously higher than anybody else's.

01:21:56 ◼   ► They got to that now,

01:21:57 ◼   ► and now they're gonna go up and down a bit.

01:21:58 ◼   ► - And it's repositioning

01:22:00 ◼   ► as they're not an exponential growth company anymore.

01:22:02 ◼   ► they were for five years or four years. And now they're a regular company that's growing

01:22:06 ◼   ► and not -- they're not -- I think part of this and maybe one of the messages that they're

01:22:10 ◼   ► trying to sell now in terms of the narrative is, look, as we know, as anyone who reads

01:22:16 ◼   ► the McElope knows, people have been saying that Apple is one step away from doom for

01:22:22 ◼   ► a decade now. It's always -- those people always -- they never understood Apple. They've

01:22:27 ◼   ► never understood Apple's customers. Now there are more Apple customers than ever before.

01:22:31 ◼   ► don't understand them. They figure at some point everybody's going to wake up from their

01:22:34 ◼   ► days and they're going to stop buying Apple products and finally Apple will be exposed

01:22:39 ◼   ► as a company that makes no product that anyone actually wants or needs. Those people are

01:22:44 ◼   ► deluded but they have been continually deluded for decades and they will continue to be.

01:22:49 ◼   ► So when Apple sales go down, in their mind it fits the narrative that they want to believe

01:22:55 ◼   ► more than any other, which is it will continue to go down until Apple is gone, because Apple

01:23:02 ◼   ► doesn't make sense to them, and they don't know why anyone would buy their products.

01:23:06 ◼   ► Now, what Apple's doing here is the counter-narrative, which is, yeah, we're not going down. In fact,

01:23:13 ◼   ► we're still going up. We just, you know, we're down over last year, but the trend is positive,

01:23:18 ◼   ► and we're fine. And the truth is, that's what, that's where we are, is Apple's going to continue

01:23:24 ◼   ► to have huge profits and okay growth, but the smartphone exponential growth period is

01:23:32 ◼   ► over and that's okay. And so in some ways they just want to steady, they want to just

01:23:38 ◼   ► send the message, things are good. We're steady, you know, we steady the ship, things are fine.

01:23:42 ◼   ► Yeah, we went down from last year, but things are fine because the one narrative out there

01:23:46 ◼   ► that I think they just want to combat is the Apple's going down like Apple going down from

01:23:52 ◼   ► last year is the start of a crash. And I think nobody legitimately believes that other than

01:23:56 ◼   ► these kind of nutty people on the side who, you know, but still, I think it's worth saying

01:24:02 ◼   ► because it's very easy for somebody not educated in Apple's business or this industry to hear

01:24:07 ◼   ► something like that and think, "Oh, I hear Apple's really having problems." And they're

01:24:10 ◼   ► not. They're not having problems. They're making billions and billions and billions

01:24:14 ◼   ► of dollars every quarter. They could subsist on their cash hoard alone for a decade or

01:24:22 ◼   ► two at their current rate of spend. So it's fine.

01:24:27 ◼   ► On the iPad Pro, what we saw in this past quarter is that about half the people who

01:24:31 ◼   ► are buying one are using it at work. We have an enormous opportunity in enterprise. That

01:24:36 ◼   ► is a repositioning of the iPad.

01:24:38 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:24:39 ◼   ► In a very interesting way.

01:24:42 ◼   ► been talking up their IBM relationship and the Fortune 500 relationship. I think what

01:24:49 ◼   ► features... Is it repositioning or is it that it's the only good news they've got? I don't

01:24:54 ◼   ► know. I mean, I feel like if you feel that this product is working in the enterprise,

01:24:59 ◼   ► what do you add to this product to make it work better in the enterprise? That's true.

01:25:03 ◼   ► In terms of prioritizing where you take the product, I think that's absolutely true. And

01:25:07 ◼   ► I wonder what that's going to look like over the next couple of years. I think that they've

01:25:10 ◼   ► made there, because you know in that GoMa report as well apparently Apple Research have

01:25:15 ◼   ► nailed that it's a three year cycle now. That's new information.

01:25:19 ◼   ► Yeah that was new.

01:25:20 ◼   ► So that coupled with this, I wonder where that takes the iPad.

01:25:24 ◼   ► Well I think it's good news for anybody who uses the iPad to get work done because even

01:25:28 ◼   ► if we're not in enterprise I feel like you know people like us who use the iPad to get

01:25:33 ◼   ► work done, more features that help business productivity on the iPad is good for you and

01:25:39 ◼   ► me and anybody else who's like us. So that's, that's, yeah, I mean as it should be. And

01:25:44 ◼   ► there, there, I mean I know he's, he's always talking up his Fortune 500 and...

01:25:52 ◼   ► That's his world man.

01:25:53 ◼   ► And IBM and all of those things.

01:25:54 ◼   ► Like he even mentioned it like when he said about writing his op-ed about coming out and

01:25:59 ◼   ► he said, "I wanted to put it in a business publication because that's what I know."

01:26:02 ◼   ► Yeah.

01:26:03 ◼   ► And I love that because it was a kind of, where was it in, was it?

01:26:06 ◼   ► It was Bloomberg.

01:26:07 ◼   ► Bloomberg.

01:26:08 ◼   ► Businessweek.

01:26:09 ◼   ► Weird place to put it.

01:26:10 ◼   ► But it's like for him, it's like, "That's me."

01:26:12 ◼   ► Well, he wanted the context of, "I'm a businessman first."

01:26:15 ◼   ► It was kind of cool.

01:26:16 ◼   ► I like that whole section where he's talking about that, talking about getting advice.

01:26:19 ◼   ► He talks about where he gets advice from people, and he's talking about like calling other

01:26:24 ◼   ► CEOs, calling previous presidents.

01:26:26 ◼   ► It's like, I just wonder how those calls go, because he doesn't even really know some of

01:26:29 ◼   ► these people.

01:26:30 ◼   ► It's like, "Hi, I'm CEO, your CEO.

01:26:32 ◼   ► Can we talk about Congress, please?"

01:26:34 ◼   ► Yeah, talk about your humble brag, right? It's like, who do you call for advice? He's

01:26:42 ◼   ► like, "Well, you know, I called Warren Buffett, I called Bill Clinton."

01:26:45 ◼   ► It's like, it's such a weird thing, but he talks about how it can be lonely to be CEO.

01:26:52 ◼   ► I totally get that, because everyone he works with, a lot of his friends work for him, and

01:27:01 ◼   ► must be a real weird feeling and so he talks to these other CEOs, strange.

01:27:06 ◼   ► Well when you're in charge, the biggest company in the world?

01:27:09 ◼   ► Well regardless, a big company, small company, small division, whatever it is, like you have

01:27:16 ◼   ► no peers at your, in your group. So as a, as the editorial director at IDG right, I

01:27:25 ◼   ► had no peers in my group. I had peers in my company who were like the head of sales and

01:27:31 ◼   ► the head of HR and the head of development. I had a boss which Tim Cook doesn t have other

01:27:37 ◼   ► than the board. But he was the CEO and he was, you know, those CEOs were all from sales

01:27:43 ◼   ► backgrounds anyway. So, I had at the end, the last couple of years, I had a boss who

01:27:48 ◼   ► was group editorial director at IDG and he came from the enterprise side. That was at

01:27:53 ◼   ► least that was actually kind of cool because I could talk to him about stuff and it was

01:27:56 ◼   ► a little less lonely to be honest. But when you're in that position where everybody in

01:28:01 ◼   ► the group that you live in every day, the fishbowl you swim in every day is somebody

01:28:05 ◼   ► who works for you. It is. It is. It is. It puts you apart from them in some ways. You

01:28:12 ◼   ► can't just throw around wacky ideas about ways to completely deconstruct your business

01:28:18 ◼   ► because it directly affects them and they worry, oh crap, am I going to lose my job

01:28:22 ◼   ► or whatever. It is an isolating position to be at the top of any little ecosystem, any

01:28:31 ◼   ► little bubble. So if you're Tim, yeah, you're at Apple and you're the CEO and who are your

01:28:39 ◼   ► peers? And so, yeah, I think it's actually kind of great that he does have people he

01:28:43 ◼   ► can reach out to even if it is like, "I'm going to get Warren Buffett on the phone here."

01:28:48 ◼   ► But at least it's, you know, does he call up the CEO at IBM and talk to her about what's

01:28:53 ◼   ► going on there and yeah, call Bill Clinton, see what's going on there.

01:28:59 ◼   ► I don't know.

01:29:00 ◼   ► But he's right.

01:29:01 ◼   ► I like, it humanizes him but also from a business perspective, that is a relevant thing.

01:29:05 ◼   ► It's like who does he talk to because in the end he has to make those decisions.

01:29:11 ◼   ► He can talk to Phil Schiller and he can talk to Craig Federighi and you know, he can talk

01:29:15 ◼   ► to all the people at Apple, but in the end he has to make that decision, the decisions,

01:29:19 ◼   ► and that's lonely too.

01:29:21 ◼   ► Talking about Steve, there's some just really heavy emotional stuff. When I first took the

01:29:31 ◼   ► job as CEO, I actually thought that Steve would be here for a long time. I'd really

01:29:34 ◼   ► convinced myself, and though this sounds probably bizarre at this point, but I convinced myself

01:29:38 ◼   ► that he would bounce because he always did.

01:29:41 ◼   ► You can see that in the wording of the-- I was looking at that note the other week, the

01:29:46 ◼   ► Apple press release, where Steve basically says, "I'm gonna-- the time has come for me

01:29:51 ◼   ► to step back from this, but I'm gonna be around as the chairman."

01:29:55 ◼   ► And at the time, we were all like, "Oh boy, how sick is this guy?"

01:30:01 ◼   ► And then when he died, we're like, "Oh, you know, they must have known."

01:30:04 ◼   ► But this actually explains why that language was that way, is that Steve was getting sicker

01:30:11 ◼   ► but that the people at Apple and probably Steve

01:30:14 ◼   ► Felt or hoped that this would be another one because he obviously had had this before where he'd really kind of gone down and then bounced

01:30:21 ◼   ► Back and gotten better and they expected that he would bounce like he says I'd convinced myself

01:30:26 ◼   ► I know it sounds bizarre

01:30:27 ◼   ► But I convinced myself he would bounce because he always did they they felt like they were on a cycle where Steve would get sicker

01:30:32 ◼   ► And they would work on it and he would get better and they figured that would happen again

01:30:35 ◼   ► And in this case it didn't happen when you look at someone like him

01:30:40 ◼   ► him, you can see why people just considered he was superhuman.

01:30:45 ◼   ► Yeah, how could you imagine? I mean, we think about that and didn't know him. The people

01:30:49 ◼   ► who work with him, his friends... Steve Jobs doesn't die.

01:30:52 ◼   ► ...had to think, Steve Jobs is never going to die. Like, he will fight it, he will figure

01:30:57 ◼   ► it out, he has all of the world's resources to figure this out. He's a tough guy, he's

01:31:02 ◼   ► never going to succumb to this. And I'm sure that they told themselves that.

01:31:07 ◼   ► was an original of a species I never viewed that as my role to be Steve I

01:31:11 ◼   ► think I would have been it would I think it would have been treacherous thing if I

01:31:15 ◼   ► would have tried to do it yeah to try and be Steve and yeah he could original

01:31:20 ◼   ► of a species is like the best way I have ever heard Steve Jobs described because

01:31:26 ◼   ► he was and anyone trying to be him never would have worked and I think that that

01:31:32 ◼   ► is like just the perfect way to describe that.

01:31:34 ◼   ► - So at the iPod photo event at the California theater

01:31:39 ◼   ► in San Jose where U2 or at least Bono and Edge performed,

01:31:46 ◼   ► they were the How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb album

01:31:51 ◼   ► was out that were promoting that with the U2 iPod

01:31:54 ◼   ► and all of that and they performed a song

01:31:57 ◼   ► from the new album and Steve Jobs introduced them

01:31:59 ◼   ► and said, "This is my favorite song on that new album. It's so great." And that song was

01:32:04 ◼   ► original of the species. So this is a U2 reference that Tim is making here, whether he knows

01:32:09 ◼   ► it or not. That was the song that Steve Jobs said, "This is the best. This is my..." And

01:32:16 ◼   ► so when I saw that, I was like, "Wow, that's a U2 reference there that's happening."

01:32:22 ◼   ► I mean, is Worded, weirdly, original of a species?

01:32:25 ◼   ► Yeah. Probably is. That's nice. I hope that's the reference.

01:32:28 ◼   ► got to be. I mean, that's I think how that phrase got to him was because I think when

01:32:33 ◼   ► every time I hear that song, I think this is Steve Jobs' favorite song on that album.

01:32:40 ◼   ► But yeah, I love the self-awareness of Tim Cook here because you get to that point, you're

01:32:45 ◼   ► exalted, you're going to become the CEO of Apple. I suppose it's possible that you could

01:32:49 ◼   ► go on an ego trip and think I'm going to try to be Steve Jobs. And it takes some discipline

01:32:54 ◼   ► to recognize that you're not that guy and you're never going to be that guy and you

01:32:57 ◼   ► need to do something different. And that's why Tim Cook was the right selection to be

01:33:02 ◼   ► CEO, is that he knew he couldn't be Steve. And who's going to follow Steve? It needs

01:33:05 ◼   ► to be somebody who's not like Steve, right? Anybody, Scott Forstall, who seemed to fancy

01:33:12 ◼   ► himself like a mini Steve, or whether it's somebody from the outside, an Elon Musk kind

01:33:17 ◼   ► of character, or Larry Ellison, people who are sort of like Steve Jobs in a way. Nobody's

01:33:21 ◼   ► like Steve Jobs, but sort of like Steve Jobs, exactly the wrong person to lead Apple after

01:33:26 ◼   ► Steve Jobs. Just go the other way. Get somebody like Tim who knows he's not Steve, who's going

01:33:31 ◼   ► to surround himself with people to support him and do, you know, the other parts of the

01:33:35 ◼   ► job that he can't do. It was a good thing and I'm glad to, it's nice to see the color

01:33:41 ◼   ► we get from him here about how he knew that couldn't be his role.

01:33:44 ◼   ► Last thing I want to touch on, the FBI. There were just a bunch of quotes in here coming

01:33:49 ◼   ► directly from Tim, which were, okay, I'll read them. "Could we create a tool to unlock

01:33:55 ◼   ► the phone. After a few days we had determined yes we could. Then the question was, ethically

01:34:04 ◼   ► should we? We thought, you know, that depends on whether we could contain it or not. Other

01:34:09 ◼   ► people were involved in this too, deep security experts and so forth, and it was apparent

01:34:14 ◼   ► from those discussions that we couldn't be assured. It became clear that the trade-off,

01:34:19 ◼   ► so to speak, was essentially putting hundreds of millions of people at risk for a phone

01:34:24 ◼   ► that may or may not have anything on it. This is my favorite line. "There are 200 plus

01:34:30 ◼   ► other countries in the world. Zero of them had ever asked this." Wow. What an indictment

01:34:40 ◼   ► of the FBI.

01:34:41 ◼   ► Yeah. That's, that's, I mean, it's, it's not anything that they haven't argued before,

01:34:48 ◼   ► but you're hearing it here in his own words when things have cooled down a little bit.

01:34:51 ◼   ► words right like yeah he can just Tim Cook has a way of just like cutting

01:34:56 ◼   ► straight to the core of what he says yeah it's like the FBI thought that

01:35:01 ◼   ► unlike any other country in the world the FBI thought that it was their right

01:35:05 ◼   ► to demand that Apple engineer software to break its own security and he also

01:35:13 ◼   ► said what you didn't quote there is is we it probably didn't have anything on

01:35:19 ◼   ► it and in fact we knew that it was extremely unlikely based on what else we knew that it

01:35:24 ◼   ► had anything on it.

01:35:25 ◼   ► Yeah, that what else we just because I said about the partners like whether or not it

01:35:29 ◼   ► had anything on it but what else we knew what that is.

01:35:33 ◼   ► They may have known it may be that they knew more that isn't widely known my guess is that

01:35:37 ◼   ► it's more that they knew that there was another iPhone that was the personal iPhone that had

01:35:41 ◼   ► been wiped and that this one was this one was a different model that they hadn't seen

01:35:46 ◼   ► a backup in a while.

01:35:47 ◼   ► - I think that they probably looked

01:35:48 ◼   ► at the iCloud backup as well.

01:35:50 ◼   ► - And they were skeptical that it had anything in it,

01:35:52 ◼   ► that they knew that this was a phone that was not used

01:35:54 ◼   ► because they were using their personal phone

01:35:56 ◼   ► for all of their terrorist stuff.

01:35:58 ◼   ► - My take on it is they'd worked with the FBI already

01:35:59 ◼   ► to analyze an iCloud backup that was like a week old,

01:36:02 ◼   ► and they knew that it was extremely unlikely

01:36:04 ◼   ► that anything new was added within a week of that device,

01:36:07 ◼   ► which is why it wasn't needed to be there.

01:36:09 ◼   ► But just like, unpopular opinion as not an American.

01:36:14 ◼   ► You know you're saying about like the FBI feeling

01:36:16 ◼   ► they can just demand this. That is the view that the rest of the world has on

01:36:20 ◼   ► America like that the American kind of idea with this stuff it's just that you

01:36:25 ◼   ► can ask and get anything yeah like from a political level and like this is

01:36:29 ◼   ► showing that like the American law enforcement agency believed they could

01:36:33 ◼   ► just ask for this and be given it and I think thankfully Apple said no because

01:36:41 ◼   ► we've touched on this a million times but that affects me in the United

01:36:45 ◼   ► Kingdom when it shouldn't. It has nothing to do with me, it's not my country. So yeah,

01:36:52 ◼   ► I'm really pleased that they went the way that they did. But yeah, fantastic interview,

01:36:57 ◼   ► really great insight and information coming from the man himself. I think they did a really

01:37:01 ◼   ► really good job of it. Alright we've been running along, should we do a couple of quick

01:37:04 ◼   ► Ask Upgrades before we finish out today's live and in person episode?

01:37:08 ◼   ► [

01:37:08 ◼   ► - (imitates air whooshing)

01:37:09 ◼   ► - Reed asked, "What do you do of your iPhone or Apple boxes?

01:37:13 ◼   ► "Do you keep them?"

01:37:14 ◼   ► Reed recently moved and had to get rid of some of them.

01:37:17 ◼   ► I got rid of a bunch of mine a little while ago

01:37:20 ◼   ► and I opened a cupboard a couple of days ago

01:37:21 ◼   ► and found all my old iPhone boxes in it.

01:37:23 ◼   ► Like I got rid of a bunch of other product boxes.

01:37:26 ◼   ► When we move, I'm probably gonna throw them out,

01:37:28 ◼   ► but I have every single box of iPhone all the way through.

01:37:32 ◼   ► - I say the ones where I have them,

01:37:37 ◼   ► Especially the ones that are Apple anything I've got that's an Apple loaner

01:37:40 ◼   ► I have to keep those boxes around and then I ship them back to Apple in the box

01:37:43 ◼   ► The ones that are mine

01:37:45 ◼   ► I keep them until I get rid of the phone and then I usually get rid of them or I've had them for a year

01:37:49 ◼   ► or two

01:37:50 ◼   ► Special ones I say like I saved the original iPod box. I've got that

01:37:54 ◼   ► But most of them I just sort of keep I keep it for a little while and then when I've decided that it's sort of been

01:38:04 ◼   ► Ridiculously long then I get rid of them

01:38:06 ◼   ► I don't, it's more clutter, I'm not a, I don't really want more clutter in my life and I find the,

01:38:11 ◼   ► I find the hardware much more compelling than the box. So I know people who save the boxes forever,

01:38:19 ◼   ► I know people who compulsively save all their product boxes because they often will resell them

01:38:24 ◼   ► after a year or two and they want to do it in the original box because they feel it gives the

01:38:28 ◼   ► product more value to sell it that way. I don't know people that will collect 13 different colors

01:38:34 ◼   ► of iMac which you can see behind me. Yeah, I can see right behind you now. Yeah, I just

01:38:38 ◼   ► don't have, honestly my house isn't very big. I live in the San Francisco Bay area. I have

01:38:44 ◼   ► a very small house with not a lot of storage space and I'm not interested in renting a

01:38:48 ◼   ► storage locker to keep Apple product boxes in so generally they don't last very long.

01:38:53 ◼   ► And Nate asked, we get lots of flavors of this question, I'm not sure I'm a pro user

01:38:58 ◼   ► but I need a new iPad. Should I go for a 9.7 inch iPad Pro or hold out for the iPad Mini

01:39:03 ◼   ► It says 128 gigabyte or bust.

01:39:06 ◼   ► If you want 128 gigabyte,

01:39:08 ◼   ► I don't know if you're ever gonna get that in the mini,

01:39:10 ◼   ► not ever, I don't think you're gonna get that

01:39:11 ◼   ► in the mini for a while.

01:39:12 ◼   ► My feeling is the iPad mini 5 won't come out

01:39:16 ◼   ► until next year, as we touched on this earlier.

01:39:19 ◼   ► - Yeah, maybe--

01:39:19 ◼   ► - I don't think it's gonna get stuff like True Tone.

01:39:22 ◼   ► - Maybe spring 2018, honestly,

01:39:24 ◼   ► until there's an iPad mini.

01:39:25 ◼   ► - I think that if you want an iPad right now,

01:39:27 ◼   ► you should probably get the iPad 7 and iPad Pro.

01:39:29 ◼   ► - I agree.

01:39:30 ◼   ► - 'Cause it looks so good, the screen is so good.

01:39:32 ◼   ► I'm looking at it right now in this room and I can tell that the True Tone is doing what

01:39:38 ◼   ► it does and the screen looks so good.

01:39:41 ◼   ► So I would recommend that.

01:39:42 ◼   ► Yeah I think so.

01:39:43 ◼   ► Alright, that wraps up this week's episode.

01:39:44 ◼   ► As we mentioned, the show will play out this week with our trailer for our members episode.

01:39:48 ◼   ► If you're not already a member, go to relay.fm/membership and you can sign up and you can become a Relay

01:39:53 ◼   ► FM member and you'll get all of our special member content that's coming out over August

01:39:58 ◼   ► and probably into early September because we have a lot of it to do including the Cortex upgrade.

01:40:03 ◼   ► Doesn't matter what membership level you choose, doesn't matter what shows or show you support,

01:40:09 ◼   ► you'll still get the feed. You can choose anything, you can support everything,

01:40:12 ◼   ► you can support upgrade, you can support anything you want, you can support clockwise.

01:40:16 ◼   ► It doesn't matter, you'll get the feed and you'll get all the shows, so go check that out.

01:40:19 ◼   ► If you want to find our show notes for this week, you can go to relay.fm/upgrades/102.

01:40:25 ◼   ► Thanks again to our sponsors, Smile and Squarespace.

01:40:29 ◼   ► If you want to find Jason online, he's at SixColors.com and he's at JasonL, J-S-N-E-L-L on Twitter.

01:40:35 ◼   ► I am @imike, I-M-Y-K-E.

01:40:37 ◼   ► And we'll be back next week. Check out the other stuff we've got going on this week.

01:40:41 ◼   ► We've got Connected later on in the week, a relay FM Q&A, stuff like that.

01:40:44 ◼   ► So happy birthday to us.

01:40:46 ◼   ► Are we gonna high five?

01:40:48 ◼   ► We're gonna high five now.

01:40:49 ◼   ► Thanks for listening everyone. We'll be back next time.

01:40:52 ◼   ► Bye everybody.

01:40:53 ◼   ► I mean my instinct is to just kill him

01:40:58 ◼   ► And we have all six bullets Myke wins

01:41:03 ◼   ► You have died game over

01:41:08 ◼   ► Ray Myke welcome to six gun

01:41:19 ◼   ► Showdown you're fresh out of the drunk tank. You're standing in the rundown shack. Look around what's in this place is there a refrigerator?

01:41:25 ◼   ► You are in the Old West. I don't know what a refrigerator is

01:41:29 ◼   ► You see a broken bottle on the floor a hook a burlap sack you uses a bed

01:41:34 ◼   ► Tired and parched you sit down to rest a lizard runs over your foot looks up at you and says howdy partner

01:41:41 ◼   ► Surely that can't be right

01:41:44 ◼   ► (laughing)

01:41:46 ◼   ► - Blackjack is faster on the draw

01:41:51 ◼   ► and hurls his knife into your chest.

01:41:53 ◼   ► You have died.

01:41:54 ◼   ► - Yep.

01:41:55 ◼   ► - Would you like to load the game?

01:41:56 ◼   ► - Excellent, yep.

01:41:57 ◼   ► (upbeat music)

01:42:01 ◼   ► [Music]