84: Peek it, But Don't Pop it!

0:00:00[Music]

0:00:08From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode number 84. Today's show is brought to you by Casper,

0:00:16ITProTV, and FreshBooks. My name is Myke Hurley. I am joined by Jason Snell. Live from Arizona.

0:00:23Hi, Jason. How are you? Well, hello from the desert, where it rained yesterday. I don't know

0:00:27know what's going on.

0:00:28Oh, does it rain in the desert? What happens when it rains in the desert?

0:00:34Things flood because they're incapable of dealing with rain.

0:00:37No drainage, I assume.

0:00:39Well, they have emergency storm drainage because things do flood. So, like, where my mom lives,

0:00:44there's a golf course nearby, and there are a few places that are suspiciously low-lying

0:00:50in the golf course, and that's because if there's too much rain, they will flood with

0:00:54water purposefully in order to protect it. But we were just driving back yesterday and

0:00:58there was just huge puddles of water on the sides of all the streets and there were a

0:01:03few little flooded intersections and they don't know how to handle it. Because it does

0:01:07it so infrequently here.

0:01:09Like when it snows in London?

0:01:11Exactly.

0:01:12Or it gets too hot in London.

0:01:14Exactly. You build your infrastructure for the most common occurrences and not the least

0:01:19common occurrences. And this is why people from the northeast of the US made fun of the

0:01:24people in like Atlanta when they had a blizzard and it was only like two inches of snow and

0:01:28it shut down the city. But you know, they didn't have any equipment to deal with it

0:01:32because it doesn't usually do that there. And that's sort of like rain in the desert.

0:01:35There's no point in, you know, they just don't deal with it. The people don't deal with it.

0:01:40So they don't even know what it looks like.

0:01:43So a couple of weeks ago, we did the first ever CarCast. And this week we are doing something

0:01:49not as ambitious but different. What are you doing this week as we're recording?

0:01:54Well, I am in Arizona. My kids are on spring break. We decided to come down and visit my

0:01:59mom for a few days. My family hadn't been down here in quite a while actually. Listeners

0:02:03know that I occasionally am down here visiting my mom but my family hadn't been down here.

0:02:08She's visited us but we hadn't flown everybody down here for about a year and a half. So

0:02:16I decided I wanted to travel light, we're here for like three and a half days, and I

0:02:21had that moment where I realized I was going to have to bring a laptop just to record a

0:02:26podcast, just to record this podcast and also clockwise this week.

0:02:31And I thought, that's silly, I think I can make this all work without a laptop, let's

0:02:36give it a try.

0:02:37So I brought my microphone and I brought my USB audio interface and I brought my USB light

0:02:45lightning adapter and I am talking to you via Skype on my iPad while recording

0:02:51my audio via my iPhone. And you're using the wonderful Ferrite to make that happen.

0:02:58I am using Ferrite recording studio to record although I could have used any

0:03:01many fine recording devices are available for iOS but I'm using Ferrite

0:03:08because I have it and I know it but yeah the idea is this is the this is where we

0:03:14are with iOS stuff. I know Fraser does this when he records his podcasts to Fraser Spears.

0:03:20It's two devices I can't hear. There's no, for people who don't do a lot of podcasting,

0:03:27ideally you hear your own voice reflected back into your earphones as you're speaking

0:03:34so that instead of it being like super muffled, you can actually hear and you can hear if

0:03:39you're too loud and you can hear if you're too close to the microphone and I can't do

0:03:42that today because I'm using two separate devices so it's a little bit weird for me

0:03:47but it gets me to not travel with that third device on this trip which is what I wanted

0:03:55to do and so here we are.

0:03:57Yeah, that is a shame. I'm going to be going to Atlanta in a couple of days for the first

0:04:04ever RelayCon and the second ever live PanAddict and I am in that situation too where I know

0:04:12that I'm gonna have to take my MacBook Pro because I have to do some podcast editing,

0:04:17most likely, on the trip. There is potential that I won't be, and if that's the case then

0:04:22I'll be leaving it at home, but I'm about 70% sure that I will be taking it with me

0:04:26and it's frustrating. And that's mainly because, whilst I know apps like Ferrite exist, the

0:04:30projects that I'll be working on will have been started on my Mac, and I don't even want

0:04:35to think about what horrific nonsense might occur if I try.

0:04:39You could do some contortions to get those to move, like bouncing things in place and

0:04:43pulling out the files and all, but it's basically once you start in one place you should just

0:04:48edit the rest of them in that place too.

0:04:50Yeah, that's true.

0:04:52And I haven't done the tests with Ferrite yet that you have and I'm not going to start

0:04:56doing episodes for production, you know, just solely on that.

0:05:02This is a little experimental for us, but I think the car cast was the most wacky thing

0:05:07that we've done in a long time, so this is slightly less weird than that.

0:05:11To get a peek behind the curtain, Jason sent me a message a couple of days ago and was

0:05:14like, "I have something that I want to try, like I just want to tell you, and you tell

0:05:18me what you think, and explain the situation, not when to bring his Mac." And he was like,

0:05:21"Would you mind if we recorded it on iOS?" And I was like, "After the car cast, like,

0:05:25nothing can shock or surprise me anymore." We went to the ultimate limit for production

0:05:32that we were ever going to have to worry about, so I'm down with it.

0:05:35I just was worried, you know, I wanted to make sure that you were going to be okay before

0:05:41we did this because I know that this is a little bit outside of your comfort zone.

0:05:46But yeah, we went all the way outside the comfort zone with the car cast.

0:05:50We drove through it.

0:05:52We did.

0:05:53We drove through the rain.

0:05:55I've been busy today, Jason.

0:05:57How so?

0:05:59So over the last few weeks especially I've had more and more people asking me if I have

0:06:07any suggestions for the Apple Pencil and some of the things that I do with it and I've been

0:06:12thinking about finding a way to put some of this stuff together because I feel like I'm

0:06:16sending lots of tweets with links to various things so I think this is more because more

0:06:22people are starting to get the pencil now that the 9.7 inch iPad is available.

0:06:27So over the time that I've had my Apple Pencil there have been a few things that I have,

0:06:32I guess customised might be the right word, my Apple Pencil with and I wanted to share

0:06:38some of those in a little blog post which I did over at MykeWasRight.com.

0:06:42Best...

0:06:43Shameless.

0:06:44The best, the best URL.

0:06:47So there's, I'm going to put a link in the show notes to that and basically it's three

0:06:50things. It's the Fisher Space Pen clip and I added the clip because I wanted to stop

0:06:57the apple pencil from rolling around. It doesn't actually do a great job of clipping to things

0:07:02because it's not incredibly tight around the pencil so I don't recommend clipping. You

0:07:07can, you've just got to be aware that it might not, one day you might lose your pencil if

0:07:11you're not careful. But I use that main to stop it rolling. I use a pen loop by a company

0:07:17called Leuchtturm 1917 which I stick the pen loop to the back of my iPad and then I'm able

0:07:23to put the Apple Pencil through the loop and it's always where I want it to be. And I covered

0:07:29my Apple Pencil in a skin by a company called dbrand and it makes it look like a HP pencil.

0:07:36So there's just three things I've done. I'm thinking about at some point, I've been meaning

0:07:40to do this for some time but never got round to it, of talking about some of the software

0:07:43I use

0:08:07and we'll put them both in the show notes if you want to go and check them out.

0:08:10But yeah, so that's there.

0:08:12I took some pictures as well, which are making some people cry out in horror, and some people

0:08:20think that it's amazing.

0:08:21And I prefer the people to think it's amazing.

0:08:24So I have some follow-up.

0:08:27First is, why the choice, other than that perhaps that it was there and so it was an

0:08:32opportunity for you to do it.

0:08:34Why make the pencil look like a traditional pencil and not perhaps like a pen since you

0:08:40love pens so much?

0:08:42The skin from dbrand, this is the only one they do.

0:08:47I would ideally want to make it like a pen but the thing is there isn't an iconic pen

0:08:52design, right?

0:08:54So really all I'd be doing is just changing the color.

0:08:57whilst the old school HB pencil skin I like because the thing is called the Apple Pencil

0:09:04and too it's like you see it and you know exactly what it is, right? Like what it's

0:09:09meant to be pretending to be. And I think that it's so much fun. And obviously, you

0:09:14can tell from my photos, people notice about me, I love stickers. And this sticker is great.

0:09:19And also it actually does provide a little bit of additional grip on the Apple Pencil.

0:09:23I find it a little bit slippery for me. Not so much that it's frustrating, but the fact

0:09:27that this thing adds a little grip I like a lot.

0:09:31So next question. The clip, so you said it doesn't clip well but it stops the pencil

0:09:39from rolling around. I have to ask about this because the pencil doesn't roll around. It's

0:09:45weighted, it doesn't roll around very far and clipping it to things might be useful

0:09:51but instead you're stopping, you're solving a problem that isn't really there and then

0:09:55the clip could solve another problem and doesn't.

0:09:59I need more here.

0:10:00- Couple of points here.

0:10:00What you can do, see I don't recommend this

0:10:03'cause I don't wanna be,

0:10:04I don't wanna get someone in trouble for this.

0:10:08You can use like a pair of pliers

0:10:11and before you put that clip on the pencil,

0:10:15you can kind of pull the two edges of the clip together

0:10:20to make it tighter and then force it on

0:10:22and it's more likely to be more secure, right?

0:10:25you can do that you can tighten it up. You can clip it on and I have done but if you

0:10:31clip it on forcefully that clip could just pop off the end because it's not fixed into

0:10:36it. I would recommend if you really want to clip it to put some glue on the inside of

0:10:41this thing and try and stick it on that way. Now saying about the rolling, I totally understand

0:10:48what you're saying as someone who doesn't use the apple pencil or any type of pen or

0:10:52pencil very much. They did weight it and it does keep it in place but it there's

0:10:57a couple of things when I put pens and pencils down I have clips on them which

0:11:01most of mine do they don't move at all right they don't move because the clip

0:11:05weights them keeps them from moving the Apple pencil does roll a little bit it

0:11:09doesn't stop dead where you put it and also if you put it down with any force

0:11:13oh yeah I have one here I'm looking I can hear you rolling it around like if

0:11:17you put it down with any force which I've done like once you use this thing

0:11:21enough you'll like pick it up you'll drop it as I do like not like throw it

0:11:24but just like drop it on the desk and the weights inside of the pencil if you

0:11:29drop it from at speed or an angle can actually propel the thing forward oh

0:11:34yeah I see that okay good point good point so you're you're physically

0:11:37stopping it it can't do a rotation with it with the clip yeah it won't do it it

0:11:41will only go it will only go like one turn at most and I understand why you

0:11:46would think this and it's why the reason Apple did it and it's why most people

0:11:49never come across this problem because they don't use it in the same way that I do, and

0:11:53it's mainly because I have an expectation for how these products and products of this

0:11:57ilk would work. And this is why I don't have any pens that I use with frequency that don't

0:12:05have something to stop them rolling, whether they're flat on one side or they have a clip

0:12:09on them. I have pens that don't have clips, but they don't get used by me very much because

0:12:13of that.

0:12:14Okay.

0:12:15So there you go.

0:12:18I'm impressed with your level of detail and enthusiasm,

0:12:22but not surprised.

0:12:23- Yeah, this is something that means a lot to me.

0:12:26- I know, I know that about you.

0:12:28- There is probably another little bit of follow up

0:12:30that I should mention.

0:12:31There's an additional iPad in the photos

0:12:34as from last week, right?

0:12:36There is a gold 9.7 inch iPad Pro.

0:12:41I'm gonna talk a little bit more

0:12:42about this later on in the show.

0:12:44- Yeah, I think you should.

0:12:48I think you need to. I think I have to, right? The other thing is something that I've been

0:12:52working on with you for a little bit. I'm working on a new podcast. It's called The

0:12:57Ring Post and it is about professional wrestling, which is the last of the things that I enjoy

0:13:03that I don't have a podcast about. And it's going to be on the incomparable. Yes. Which

0:13:09I'm very excited about. We have some amazing artwork done. I've set up a landing page.

0:13:14I'm trying to do some different things of this show.

0:13:18I'm trying to do some things that we don't usually do,

0:13:20or that I don't usually do when launching shows

0:13:23or working on shows.

0:13:23And one of those is I've set up a website,

0:13:26so currently, which is at ringpost.fm,

0:13:28which will eventually forward to where the show lives.

0:13:31But right now there's a landing page there

0:13:33and there's a newsletter link,

0:13:35so you can sign up to a newsletter

0:13:37to find out when the show launches.

0:13:38And there's also a link to a Twitter account,

0:13:42which is Ringpost.fm,

0:13:44where I'm also gonna be, again another thing that I don't do,

0:13:47I'm gonna be just tweeting from that account

0:13:49thoughts and opinions about wrestling.

0:13:53Which I usually also don't do from podcast accounts.

0:13:55So I'm trying some different things

0:13:56and this is because I have something that I like

0:13:59that I have an outlet for that the majority of people

0:14:01that follow me on Twitter don't care about.

0:14:03So I'm gonna tweet all that stuff over on that account.

0:14:06And so this is something that I like

0:14:08and we were talking about this

0:14:10and I've been thinking about this for a while

0:14:12And it just popped into my head one day with some prodding from Adina to talk to you to see if you would want it on the incomparable

0:14:19Because I feel like it fits better with the themes of the incomparable than the themes of the relay I think.

0:14:26I think.

0:14:27Yeah, yeah, I think so. It's it's an I mean

0:14:29Somebody in the chat room just asked the question about why it isn't on relay

0:14:33And I'm sure you'll hear that a lot and I would say it's the same reason that upgrade and clockwise aren't on the incomparable

0:14:38I had my own podcast network and I didn't think that doing tech podcasts was a good

0:14:43fit for the incomparable because the incomparable is about cultural stuff.

0:14:47It's about entertainment that we like and this fits perfectly in there.

0:14:52If I were to do a sports podcast at some point, it would go on the incomparable but if I were

0:14:58to do something that was more about technology and leaning more that direction, I feel like

0:15:04I would take that to relay.

0:15:06And so Ring Post makes a lot of sense to be incomparable, where we've got all sorts of

0:15:10different shows about broad topics and also very specific enthusiasms.

0:15:15Like I mean, two Relay hosts, Micah and Christina, do their podcast about cartoons, and that's

0:15:21on the incomparable.

0:15:22Yeah, so there is a real cross-pollination between the two networks.

0:15:27We are cousins.

0:15:29There's a poison pill, Myke, you can't take us over.

0:15:32If you really try to take over the incomparable, a kitten dies.

0:15:38So just stay where you are.

0:15:41Alright, I'll do what I can.

0:15:43No promises.

0:15:44But also because I wanted to do some things that were a little bit different to how I

0:15:49usually do them, it was fun for me to try them out in a different place.

0:15:54Just make a fresh perspective.

0:15:57You don't have to tell me about experimentation and the value of it, right?

0:16:00I mean, this is what I love about seeing you do this, is this gives you an opportunity

0:16:03to do some stuff that you're not doing all the time, in terms of subject matter, but

0:16:09also in terms of your approach to doing a podcast.

0:16:11So I would imagine that the podcast itself will also be a place for you to try out some

0:16:18new ways of doing things.

0:16:19And I mean, this is why I do all the stupid podcasts that I do.

0:16:23It's because I want to try different stuff out.

0:16:26And they're all, you know, all of them tend to be because there's something or other that

0:16:30I want to do that's like, "Oh, well that would be funny.

0:16:31Why don't we do a podcast where we ask if something is a robot or not?"

0:16:35You know, it's a terrible idea, but it could be funny.

0:16:39And so, I love that you're doing this.

0:16:41Like, for example, talking about things that are a little bit different, the first episode

0:16:45will most likely be just me.

0:16:48Cool.

0:16:49Which I don't usually do.

0:16:51Right.

0:16:52So, you know, that's just another thing.

0:16:54I don't have a show where I'm the only one talking, I have no guest.

0:16:58I'm gonna have guests and I have a selection of people that I think will be really fun

0:17:02to bring on the show.

0:17:04But I'm not gonna have a fixed co-host and there might be some episodes or some segments

0:17:08where it's just me monologuing.

0:17:10So there you go, I'm trying out some different stuff.

0:17:13That's enough of the mic update for today, we do have some other follow up but I want

0:17:17to take our first break, Jason.

0:17:19Alright, today's show is brought to you by ITProTV.

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0:19:33Woohoo!

0:19:34Alright, Mr Snell.

0:19:37Yes sir, Mr Hurley.

0:19:39Your favorite topics? New Kindles.

0:19:44Rumors are flying as we record this, probably very soon after we finish recording this and

0:19:49post it, they'll announce a new Kindle, Jeff Bezos said it was coming, but we don't know

0:19:53a lot more.

0:19:54There are rumors next week, I'm sure we'll talk about it.

0:19:57There's a rumor that it's called the Oasis, and after all, you're my Wonderwall.

0:20:04And the, also, so Federico will get one.

0:20:08And that it may be waterproof and that it has a weird shape that it's thicker on one

0:20:15side than the other and that it's sort of meant to be grippable in that way.

0:20:20I'm kind of skeptical that it's got an accelerometer, gasp, that will automatically rotate the screen.

0:20:26Gasp.

0:20:27Imagine.

0:20:28And that it has an attached, you can get a battery case for it that will let it run for

0:20:36weeks, they say.

0:20:38The pictures look weird. I don't know what I think, but you know, the problem with the

0:20:42rumors is you get some of the details and not all of the details and you go and get

0:20:46to hear sort of the whole big story around the plot product. So I'm curious and we'll

0:20:51try to talk about it next week. You're not here next week because you're going to be

0:20:55traveling because of your pen show duties. So we'll see what happens there.

0:21:03You can probably find someone who's more interested in reading than I am.

0:21:06Probably, probably. So we'll see. I'd love to talk to Scott McNulty about it if I can

0:21:12find time in his schedule to do it because he is a very smart guy and a Kindle addict.

0:21:18We could--note to self, new show, Kindle addict. Nothing but Kindles. So we'll see, we'll follow

0:21:28up on this. I'm intrigued. We had a good discussion about it on Clockwise last week actually because

0:21:33there's this question about is there anything left in this product category? What do you

0:21:37do to innovate in this category that sort of, it's a niche product, people love it,

0:21:43who buy them and other people don't see the need for them, but they've sort of perfected

0:21:47a lot of aspects of the Kindle, so where do you go from here? And you know, the concern

0:21:52is that you get really weird is where you go from here.

0:21:54I really don't know if battery life is the thing that needs to be considered for this

0:21:59product.

0:22:00Yeah, the waterproof rumor is interesting because famously Jeff Bezos is, you know,

0:22:05supposedly reads in the bathtub with his Kindle in a plastic bag.

0:22:10Waterproof is perfect for this device.

0:22:11Yeah, so that's a good one.

0:22:14The uneven back where there's one side that's thicker than the other, that could be problematic

0:22:20ergonomically, although presumably they've thought of that, but it's Amazon, so you never

0:22:24know.

0:22:25Sometimes their products are just super weird.

0:22:28So we'll see, but I'm always intrigued with that product category. It's kind of fun to

0:22:33see what they do there. And the nice thing is that they can't take my current Kindle

0:22:37away from me. So if I don't like it, I'll be okay.

0:22:41Cool. Yeah.

0:22:43Alright, well, we'll see. I mean, I think that the one-handed grip type thing is cool.

0:22:51You know, I've used that with smart covers in the past and iPads, and I think it's nice.

0:22:55It's all down to the details. Yeah, it could be good. It could be well done. You won't

0:23:02really be able to tell until it's in hand. But yeah, it's intriguing. And waterproofing

0:23:06would be great on it because this is also presumably the high-end Kindle. For most people,

0:23:13if you want an e-reader, the Paperwhite is the best one to get. And no, it's not as nice

0:23:17as the Voyage, but the Voyage isn't better enough to make it worth it for most people.

0:23:25And this is the same thing. I think this is going to be, once again, it's the platinum

0:23:30Kindle for the people who love, love, love, love their Kindles and want it to be more

0:23:35than just sort of a disposable reader.

0:23:38Yeah. Yeah. How much do you think this is going to go for? Do you think it will be like

0:23:44still in the... How much does the voyage cost?

0:23:49I don't know.

0:23:51An amount of money, I guess.

0:23:53hundred dollars. No, it's a lot. You're asking me to look things up on an iPad.

0:23:59I'm doing it as we speak.

0:24:00A couple hundred bucks.

0:24:03The Kindle Voyage is $199.99.

0:24:05Yep. Yep.

0:24:08They have a $220 one as well.

0:24:11Yeah.

0:24:12Ah, because the $200 one is with special offers.

0:24:14Special offers.

0:24:15Yeah.

0:24:16Yeah.

0:24:17All right, well, we'll see. I know that this is something that you're excited about. I'm

0:24:18sure you reckon you'll buy it. You'll probably buy it anyway, right?

0:24:20It's quite possible, yeah.

0:24:21Yeah. Yeah.

0:24:22And Scott certainly will buy it, so.

0:24:25But you don't have to, next week we'll talk about it and you don't have to listen.

0:24:28Perfect.

0:24:29That's how you like it.

0:24:32Alright, and you put a link in here to a Neiman Lab post that I've not read because I just

0:24:40can't some of these things.

0:24:41Yeah, this is, well the key quote in this post, which is, the headline is audible, long

0:24:46known only for audiobooks, is branching out into podcasts and news.

0:24:50They have this new thing called channels.

0:24:52It looks to me, it's unclear because it's in beta, the way that it's described it seems

0:24:57like this is like if you're an Audible member you get access to these things which makes

0:25:01it sort of like some of the other things like Howl from Earwolf that are, you know you pay

0:25:07a subscription fee and you get access to podcasts that are behind a paywall basically and you

0:25:13use their app.

0:25:16The quote in the Neiman Lab story was "podcasts are shifting into verticalized, producer-specific,

0:25:22specific experiences, because there is nothing I love more than a verticalized experience.

0:25:30And I would say Neiman Lab, while writing very interesting things about media and journalism,

0:25:36should not be using industry buzzwords like that, because that's really awful.

0:25:41But this is what they mean, is like, "Oh, podcasts are going to be things that are behind

0:25:44pay walls where you have to use a specific app to listen to that producer's podcasts,"

0:25:48to which I would say, "That's not a podcast.

0:25:52something else, but if it's premium, paywalled, only available in certain platforms, it's

0:25:58not a podcast anymore. It's paid audio content that isn't necessarily an audiobook. And,

0:26:07you know, that's fine. But several people, I tweeted about this, several people suggested

0:26:12that this needs to create the verticals vertical for us. Just bring it all the way back around.

0:26:19Now I agree with you, in the same way that audiobooks are not podcasts, you know, like

0:26:24this isn't a podcast either. This is fine, this is like an extension of that, but I don't

0:26:31think that they're podcasts in the way that we think of them, and I think personally that

0:26:37a better name should be applied to this type of content.

0:26:40Yeah, I think this is, I mean this is also trying, people feel like, oh podcasts are

0:26:44hot now. So people are going to use the phrase podcast as a way to sell a new product that

0:26:51is not really a podcast or it is, I mean I don't know what bugs me more, the idea that

0:26:56podcasts are going to turn into this or that there are some offerings where it seems like

0:27:02they want to charge you a monthly fee for access behind a paywall to things that are

0:27:08really just podcasts that they paid somebody a lot of money for but are just, it's just

0:27:12another podcast. I think, you know, as we have the relay support system, I think having

0:27:17people support podcasts and trying to find business models for podcasts is all good,

0:27:21but once you've got a verticalized experience, I'm not sure that's a podcast anymore.

0:27:28I don't know what it is, but it's another way to sell, it's like, "Oh, you like

0:27:33audio content on your mobile devices. Well, what if we gave you some that you paid us

0:27:37for directly?" And that's not a bad question to ask, but it reminds me of the early days

0:27:44of the web, as a lot of podcasting stuff does, where big companies come in and they create

0:27:49like the portal strategy, which is, "We're going to be the one place that is your gateway

0:27:53to everything on the web." And in the end, although there are lots of huge players on

0:27:59the web, the web is bigger than that. It's got lots of players at lots of different levels

0:28:03and lots of uses that are not kind of behind a paywall.

0:28:09And I think podcasting is going to be resilient like that too.

0:28:12I think there's room for premium stuff, but I think it'll be interesting to see how people

0:28:19react to that because I'm skeptical about how many people are going to want to spend

0:28:23$10 or $15 a month for a small collection of premium podcasts on a particular network.

0:28:31I'd much rather donate to MaxFun for the flophouse, frankly, than do something like that. But

0:28:37it's an HBO strategy and if their content is HBO-like, then it'll be worth it. I'm skeptical

0:28:42about whether that's the case.

0:28:43Mm-hmm. All right, so moving on, let's talk about the True Tone display a little bit.

0:28:49Yeah.

0:28:50So you posted your iPad Pro review late last week, I think. It was late last week.

0:28:57I did.

0:28:59And so you've kind of come to the point now where you've reviewed this product, right?

0:29:03So you've felt like you've had enough time with it, you've kind of thought about it,

0:29:07you've played around with it.

0:29:09What's the kind of high level feeling about this?

0:29:12I know we spoke about it a bit last week, but kind of my takeaway from the review was

0:29:16this is a really great iPad but it's not my iPad.

0:29:20Is that fair to say?

0:29:21Oh yeah, I mean from my perspective that was basically it is this is the iPad most people

0:29:26are going to want, I think. This is the mainstream iPad. It's a great product. I'm happy with

0:29:34my bigger iPad, but I am used to being an edge case because I also love the 11-inch

0:29:39MacBook Air, and I've always been somebody who's kind of liked a lot of the edge cases

0:29:45in terms of mobile devices, and that's fine. But it's great. And if the big iPad Pro didn't

0:29:54I would buy it in a heartbeat.

0:29:58It's just for me, I really have taken to the features

0:30:02that are available on the bigger model.

0:30:03I like the larger screen and I'm not willing to go back.

0:30:07The True Tone display is really interesting

0:30:11and I'm interested in what you think about it too.

0:30:13I mean, what I said in the review is that this is

0:30:16about as Apple a feature as there is, right?

0:30:20I mean, this is the hardware of the display,

0:30:23the hardware of the sensors, and then the software that does the calibration.

0:30:29And that's all working together, and it's all been built to solve a problem nobody really

0:30:34knew that they had.

0:30:37Nobody was like, "When will somebody finally automatically adjust the white point on my

0:30:41displays based on my surroundings?"

0:30:43I'm sure somebody said that somewhere, but it was not a clamor for this feature.

0:30:49at Apple, people at Apple said, "You know what would be great that nobody's doing,

0:30:54is adapting to the color in your room and changing the white point." And so this is

0:31:03what they did. And I think that's just very Apple, to build all this in and work with

0:31:09the hardware and the software and solve a problem that we didn't even know we had.

0:31:14So, after recording Cortex of Gray and him talking about his multiple iPad solution,

0:31:21and then I recorded with you and we spoke about the iPad, I decided I wanted to try

0:31:26out the 9.7, so I headed to the App Store on Tuesday and purchased one.

0:31:32I've given some of my thinking about this on connected, we're going to talk about it

0:31:36on Cortex again, but kind of like the real high level is, right now I'm thinking that

0:31:42the amount I'm enjoying using iOS, is there a world in which I could have multiple iPads

0:31:48in the same way that I've had multiple Macs for many years? I've had a desktop Mac and

0:31:52I've had a laptop Mac and I've used them for different things. Or I have my laptop and

0:31:57my iPad and I use them for different things. In all honesty I feel like I'm developing

0:32:03a system where I am doing that, where I am using the 9.7 inch iPad for when I am consuming

0:32:10content like I'm reading or I'm looking at Twitter or something like that and then I'm

0:32:16using 12.9 when I'm doing work, when I'm preparing for shows, when I'm invoicing and that kind

0:32:21of stuff.

0:32:22And mainly it's because the multitasking on the larger iPad is so superior to the multitasking

0:32:27on the smaller iPad Pro.

0:32:30For me the multitasking on the 9.7 is like it's nice that it's there and you use it in

0:32:35in a pinch, but I tend to have one app on the screen at a time. But on the larger iPad

0:32:41Pro I tend to have multiple apps on the screen at one time because why not? But one of the

0:32:47things that I'm finding interesting is the more I use each iPad the more I love the other

0:32:51one. So I enjoy them both whilst I use them, but when I'm using the big iPad and I go to

0:33:02to

0:33:15a kind of a balance in trying to do my work across these two devices. And I know it's

0:33:20ridiculous but my main thing is I'm trying to think about what my future of computing

0:33:27is and I think it's more like this than what I've had before. And nobody ever, I'm having

0:33:33people tell me it's ridiculous having two iPads but I never had anybody tell me it was

0:33:36ridiculous for having a Mac and a MacBook Pro, like an iMac and a MacBook Pro. Nobody

0:33:40ever said to me that was ridiculous. So, you know, I'm just trying to find the balance

0:33:45that makes sense to me. But anyway, park that for another time. I want to talk about True

0:33:49Tone. So...

0:33:50Okay, we'll park that. That was interesting. I'm going to ponder your...

0:33:57I still have to talk through this a bunch more. Like, that was kind of just a "I've

0:34:02had this for a few days, blah." Right? And also I feel like I have to try and defend

0:34:08myself a little bit. Anyway the True Tone I think makes this the most comfortable device

0:34:15that I've ever read text on. It's got all of the great stuff that iOS devices have had

0:34:22forever. Night shift makes it even nicer but there's something about this screen. I look

0:34:29at this screen and I'm like this screen is incredible and the only thing that I feel

0:34:34that must be the difference here is true tone because it's the only thing that's changed

0:34:39it. So it is much easier on my eyes. I love the feature and the colors feel more vibrant

0:34:46to me than on other iOS devices. They are. When I look, of course they are, when I look

0:34:53at, I've forgotten that yes, they are more vibrant. That's like a whole other feature.

0:34:57I keep forgetting that they put that in there. Like when I look at my home screen, it's like

0:35:01and my app icons have never looked like this before.

0:35:04And I'm looking at it, I'm like this thing is amazing.

0:35:08And so when I read with this,

0:35:10or when I, you know, like looking at it

0:35:12for long periods of time, like I read articles,

0:35:15I was reading stuff for this show today on it,

0:35:17I'm like this is really nice,

0:35:19and it's also not the size of a tea tray.

0:35:21So that balance I think is making this a really nice,

0:35:26I have my consumption iPad and my creation iPad,

0:35:30That's where I am in my life right now.

0:35:32But I'm liking the True Tone display a lot for that.

0:35:35And genuinely, I think that I would miss it a lot

0:35:38if I didn't have a device that had it.

0:35:40- Color means less to me than it does to many people.

0:35:44- I wanted to ask you that question

0:35:46without trying to offend you.

0:35:48And-- - How dare you, sir?

0:35:50- Exactly, and I just wonder if maybe,

0:35:53maybe there is a possibility

0:35:55that you're not getting the benefit that I'm getting.

0:35:59- It's entirely possible.

0:36:00I mean, I can see colors.

0:36:02- I know you can.

0:36:03So that's why I don't wanna make it sound like to be offensive.

0:36:06- In certain ranges of especially reds and greens,

0:36:10my differentiation skills are low, right?

0:36:13My sensors are not calibrated for that

0:36:15to use totally nerd terms.

0:36:17So yeah, I mean, this is a lot of products

0:36:21that when it's about the colors on them, I just punt.

0:36:25I just say, yeah, they say that it's like this.

0:36:28I can't judge this, I'll let other people judge it.

0:36:32So it's definitely a better display.

0:36:34I mean the displays on the 2015 iMacs are the same color gamut, they're brighter, this

0:36:41is the new generation of display tech from Apple.

0:36:45And so I don't have this on my big iPad Pro, nor do I have it on my 5K iMac, because I

0:36:51have the 2014 5K iMac.

0:36:55So yeah, it's a beautiful display.

0:37:00What can you say about it?

0:37:01And there are lots of colors that cannot be properly displayed on other devices because

0:37:08they're outside the color space.

0:37:11Apple has a whole list.

0:37:12They will tell you all about all the different colors that can't be displayed.

0:37:15The one I laughed at was the uniform of the Denver Broncos is an orange that is outside

0:37:22the color space, the standard color space, but it's in the color space of this device

0:37:27and the two iMac displays.

0:37:30This is what, if we see a Retina external display from Apple, it'll also, I mean this

0:37:35is this color gamut, this style of display, this is the new generation, they haven't given

0:37:40it a name, True Tone isn't really the name of it because that's more to do with the white

0:37:47point setting, but this display tech that's in here and those two iMacs, this is Apple's

0:37:52new generation display tech. So my guess is that the next iPad,

0:37:56a big iPad pro will also have this display tech because that's, you know,

0:38:01it'll be like the 5k iMac. The first one doesn't have it. The second one does.

0:38:04Right. So, you know,

0:38:07I do feel that this screen is vastly superior and we had somebody write to us

0:38:12about, and you know, one of these kind of unintentional benefits, I think,

0:38:18but ended up being great for some people.

0:38:19So Benjamin wrote in to say that the combination of True Tone and Night Shift is helping him

0:38:24use his iPad better than he's used any device before.

0:38:28Benjamin suffers from a couple of conditions.

0:38:31He has dyslexia and a syndrome called Erlin's syndrome which basically means that reading

0:38:37bright displays can be really difficult.

0:38:40So the reductions in bright blue light and bright light that come from the combination.

0:38:46So he said that night shift was helping him out, but then when he tried out the True Tone,

0:38:50it was like, now I can sit and use this device for hours and I've never been able to do that

0:38:54before.

0:38:55And I think that's really cool.

0:38:57Like it's one of those things where it's like this guy can now use his iPad and can now

0:39:01use an iPad better than he's been able to use any device because they're continuing

0:39:05to advance the complexities of what these displays can do.

0:39:10Yeah, and I hadn't considered that, but it's a cool thing that this is...

0:39:18Yeah, I mean, Night Shift thrown in here too.

0:39:20I wonder too if the reason that Night Shift was sort of floating out there as a feature

0:39:24and then Apple finally added it at this point, we were wondering what was going on with Apple

0:39:29and this blue light bandwagon, if it was all connected to the True Tone stuff, where they're

0:39:34like, "No, no, no, no, no.

0:39:35We don't want to do that until the True Tone is ready, because that's where we're going

0:39:38to drop all these features because they are similar. Night shift is not related to a sensor

0:39:43but they're similar features and so I do wonder about that.

0:39:46Yeah, as I say, this display is just nicer. It feels nicer on my eyes to read and it just

0:39:52feels like when I look at it, it's just way more comfortable and you know, playing around

0:39:56in the settings and turning the true tone on and off, it's like, yeah, okay, this is

0:40:00a good looking screen here. So I like it. I like it a lot and you know, I don't know

0:40:05I don't know what colour purists say about this sort of stuff.

0:40:08I'm sure they love the gamut but I don't know what they think about the fact that it changes

0:40:12the colour but I think it's awesome that it does it for me anyway.

0:40:17Great.

0:40:18Should we take a break?

0:40:20I think that's a good idea.

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0:42:363D Touch, Jason. Yes.

0:42:39You went and wrote a little article the other day over at Macworld about what you call the

0:42:43trouble with 3D Touch. What is said trouble? So I was at Apple, you know, for that event

0:42:50the other week and I was talking to Gruber and he and I were just talking about stuff,

0:42:59catching up a little bit. And we got on the subject of 3D Touch and I asked him because

0:43:07the iPhone SE doesn't have it and I asked him if he used it because I said I basically

0:43:12never use it and he said no I never use it either. And we were talking about what the

0:43:16issues are. And I thought, you know, I should write something about this because you write

0:43:23about products in theory, you know, when you're using them after, you know, a week and you

0:43:28write your review, it's like, well, I tried this feature out, I think it's very clever

0:43:32and I do think it's a very clever feature, I think it's got some things that are implemented

0:43:35really well. I think the feature itself is brilliant, that it senses your finger pressure

0:43:43and triggers at more or less the right time, and the Taptic Engine physical feedback is

0:43:50good.

0:43:52I think the problem, and I worried about this at the time, but over the course of the last

0:43:56six months I find that it is, I've sort of stopped looking for it and I've kind of forgotten

0:44:04it exists.

0:44:05And one of the reasons is because while some of the features are really great, switching

0:44:09apps using sort of the force 3d touch on the edge of the screen the the trackpad

0:44:17initiation by pressing down on the keyboard is a good one

0:44:20I think I think the problem with 3d touch in a lot of places is that on the

0:44:29icon app icons they're not customizable enough and don't have access to as far

0:44:35as far as I can tell, enough live data to make them more than, for most apps, just super

0:44:41basic shortcuts. And my biggest issue is that things like Peek and Pop I find not particularly

0:44:47useful. And you know, some people find them useful. I've heard from a lot of people, like,

0:44:50"Well, I use 3D Touch, so you're wrong." It's like, "Okay, well, I didn't say people didn't

0:44:54use it." In fact, I think what I said in my article is, "People who use 3D Touch are not

0:44:58monsters."

0:44:59say that and I had a chuckle when I read it.

0:45:02But I think I've also talked to a lot of people who don't use 3D touch very much or if they

0:45:08say they use it they say well I use it but I really am only using it to move the cursor

0:45:12around and switch apps. I don't like Peek and Pop because I feel like in most cases

0:45:19it's a waste of time. There are very few cases where I want to peek at something where I

0:45:25don't just want to see it and tapping on a link and seeing it and then going back

0:45:30in most of the time is less fussy then pushing a little bit till it peaks but

0:45:37not so much that it pops and then seeing what it is and then deciding to let go

0:45:40or push it down or or swipe so I don't I don't love the peak and pop thing I

0:45:47don't use it a lot I don't I don't think that it saves a lot of time but my

0:45:51overarching point is that I feel like just as with the force click on the Mac

0:45:59there are we're suffering from the fact that this is not available on all

0:46:05devices and so nobody wants to do anything important with this gesture

0:46:11because you only can get it on a couple of devices and and so you can't count on

0:46:19it so you can't do anything super critical on it you have to put your super critical

0:46:24interface stuff somewhere else and have this more for niceties and that's why on the Mac

0:46:30when you force click on something you get this weird it's the equivalent of like the

0:46:34old three finger click three finger tap thing where you like define terms and stuff and

0:46:41logically in a world where force calibration existed from the beginning it would probably

0:46:45be the alternate click, it would be the control click.

0:46:48But it's not.

0:46:50And similarly on iOS, I feel like, and Grouper and I were talking about this, that something

0:46:56like a tap and hold, if we said, "okay, tap and hold is the equivalent of a control click,

0:47:01it provides extra context, and with 3D touch you don't have to hold, you just do the 3D

0:47:07touch and it instantly brings you the context," would be a better convention.

0:47:12But because it came in late to the party, it's just sort of, I feel like it's less

0:47:19useful than it should be that this technology is being let down by the fact that everybody

0:47:23is afraid to make it central because only the 6 and 6S have it.

0:47:29And that if you embraced a universal equivalent for non-3D touch devices, then it could be

0:47:37much more useful.

0:47:39And if you imagine something like tapping and holding on an iPad and getting the equivalent

0:47:44of what happens with a 3D Touch on an iPhone, I feel like then people who've got the 3D

0:47:51Touch devices are going to be more happy.

0:47:53They're going to be able to do that much more readily because they don't have to wait.

0:47:58And there are going to be more uses of it and that will be better.

0:48:01And I'm concerned it's going to be years before 3D Touch can be assumed on devices

0:48:07because devices survive and there are devices being sold today like the SE, brand new device

0:48:13that doesn't support it and all the iPads don't support it.

0:48:18And so I feel like 3D Touch is in this weird quandary where it's available but for such

0:48:24a narrow group of people just like the Force Touch trackpads on the Mac that it can't live

0:48:31up to its potential.

0:48:32I would argue that the Force Touch trackpads are more available than the 3D Touch capability,

0:48:41right? There are more devices that have that ability to have that trackpad than there are

0:48:46iOS devices. Just a point, but the problem still remains.

0:48:51You can't count on it, right? Exactly.

0:48:52I mean, if you've got an older Mac, but you can't count on it to the point where you'd

0:48:58say, "This is a feature only available by a Force Touch," right? You can't. You can't

0:49:03do it.

0:49:04No. So, I do use Peek and Pop quite a bit, actually, in a couple of different instances.

0:49:12One of them is when people send me links via iMessage. I will very, practically every single

0:49:18time I will Peek and Pop the link, if I don't know what I'm going to, right? Like, if I've

0:49:23not been asked for something or I'm not expecting something, somebody sends me a link to something,

0:49:27I will typically just use the Peek and Pop because I don't leave the app, right? I'm

0:49:31still in Messages. I'm usually just checking something. So typically I'm going to be, I

0:49:37know the next thing I'll be doing after looking at that link is sending another iMessage.

0:49:42So I never leave. But I actually think that Apple fail with their implementation of Peek

0:49:48and Pop in Messages. And I will use Tweetbot as an example, which is another app that I

0:49:53use Peek and Pop in quite a lot. Like somebody will tweet a link to something and I want

0:49:57to see what it is before I actually go ahead and open it and read it or check it out.

0:50:02Because sometimes it's like, "Oh, what is this that they're linking to?"

0:50:05So I'll give the scenario a Tweetbot and then go back to why I think it's better than messages.

0:50:10So when I peek a link in Tweetbot, it will start to load the page.

0:50:16And then if I decide that I want to check it out, you push it in and you pop it into

0:50:19view and the content is there.

0:50:21It's there from the initial loading.

0:50:22And this is because they're using Safari View Controller for the whole scenario.

0:50:26But when I do this in Messages, once you pop, it then opens Safari and the page loads again.

0:50:33So it makes that interaction feel slower in Messages and therefore less useful than if

0:50:37I just click the link.

0:50:39So if Apple could either use Safari View Controller or somehow find a way to pass the data from

0:50:44that initial load in Messages over to Safari, I think that this would really help more people

0:50:50use it because I can see someone using it and then pressing the pop action and then

0:50:56it just opens Safari and it loads again.

0:50:58I don't feel like you've helped me at all here, but applications that use Safari View

0:51:02Controller actually have a much better experience because the data is being shared between the

0:51:07initial peak and pop.

0:51:09So I think it could be done a lot better.

0:51:11Yeah, makes sense.

0:51:13That is one of my complaints for sure is that I have this feeling I stopped doing it a lot

0:51:17on links because I felt like, why am I calibrating the level of my press on this link so that

0:51:26I peek it but don't pop it and then looking at the link and deciding, oh I do want to

0:51:33read this and then pressing harder and having it open in Safari when I could just tap the

0:51:37link and look at it in Safari and then tap the back link and go back.

0:51:41- Yeah, see that could be a lot more seamless.

0:51:44But like for me, I like it because it allows me

0:51:49to kind of vet something, right,

0:51:52before I go ahead and spend the time on it.

0:51:54I think that's why it exists and that's why I like it.

0:51:58Other interactions with 3D Touch that I enjoy,

0:52:00I do the cursor moving multiple times a day.

0:52:05- That's a great feature.

0:52:05- Love that feature.

0:52:07I hardly ever use the multitasking

0:52:09because I wear a case on my phone.

0:52:11So it's super difficult to make that interaction occur,

0:52:15in my opinion.

0:52:16I never use the App Icon Actions.

0:52:19- Yeah, I was, I mean, like I said earlier,

0:52:22I was excited about the App Icon Actions,

0:52:24but they're so limited,

0:52:26and most apps are doing a very basic job.

0:52:29There are apps that do a great job.

0:52:31Somebody sent me a fitness app,

0:52:32and now I can't forget,

0:52:34or I can't remember which one it was, I did forget,

0:52:37that actually shows you your steps and other fitness data,

0:52:40that it's doing some extra work to update its quick shortcut list, quick menu, quick

0:52:47view, whatever it's called.

0:52:49But most don't, most are really simple and not very useful and some of that probably

0:52:53has to do with the limitations Apple puts on it.

0:52:55It could be more useful and part of it is that I think the developers are just not that

0:52:59into it.

0:53:00And is that because they looked and people don't use that feature or is it that they

0:53:04don't, they're worried about other things and it's a feature that only iPhone 6s can

0:53:09use so they're not going to bother. I don't know, it's maybe a combination of all those

0:53:13things but I wish it was more useful because it's a really cool idea. Plus, even Apple

0:53:18has failed to do it like on Control Center. You can't 3D touch on any of the icons in

0:53:24Control Center which seems dumb because the camera icon is there. And the Wi-Fi and Bluetooth

0:53:30icons are there where you can quickly connect to a Bluetooth device or something like that

0:53:35but nope, there's no support for it at all.

0:53:37Like what I would like to be able to do is to customize those shortcuts more.

0:53:43For example, the Slack one I would love to be able to just basically make it all of the

0:53:48Slacks that I'm a part of.

0:53:49Right.

0:53:50But yeah, as you say, some apps that you customize, some apps kind of feel like they're assuming.

0:53:56The messages one is the most baffling to me.

0:53:59The people that are whenever I've 3D touched the messages icon and never the people I would

0:54:03expect to be there.

0:54:04I don't know how that's chosen.

0:54:06I've got to say overall that I do miss 3D touch on my iPads because the two finger trackpad

0:54:15is nowhere near as reliable for me. I feel like I'm always just typing characters and

0:54:20can never get it to do anything. And I do, and I say I use Peek and Pop enough that I

0:54:24wish it was it was there. I want to talk about the long press idea that you propose. I think

0:54:34I think I can see why Apple might not want to do this.

0:54:37Oh sure. So I think that the 3D touch, they want to

0:54:42be, they want the 3D touch actions to only be on 3D touch devices because it's a new

0:54:47feature for new devices. You know all of this, I know you do, I'm just saying.

0:54:51I think they want 3D touch to be special, right, so they want to tie those things together.

0:54:58But I agree with you that if they don't do something and it takes three years for all

0:55:03iOS devices to get this, right?

0:55:05Like if you imagine it just shuffling down the line, I think it's going to be too late

0:55:09and everyone's going to forget about this feature.

0:55:11Well, yeah, that's the problem is I think it's dumb if the reasoning is, "Well, no,

0:55:17no, no, we want it to be things you can only do on a 3D touch device," then it's not

0:55:23as useful.

0:55:24And that's my feeling about Force Touch on the Mac.

0:55:27it's the same thing.

0:55:29Bring it into the family.

0:55:30Pick something that makes it, you know, it's still going to have advantages because it's

0:55:34hardware, it's better, it feels better to use it.

0:55:38And there can still be features that don't exist, like I'm not saying a long press on

0:55:42a non-3D touch iPhone has to move the cursor or something like that.

0:55:48I'm thinking more like, can we define what the secondary touch is, the secondary click,

0:55:54like a control click on the Mac.

0:55:56Can we define that and say that the convention is that is the secondary action and on devices

0:56:04with 3D touch that will kick it off instantaneously and on devices without it, it will, you'll

0:56:12tap and wait, let's say, and it will finally kick it off after a second or whatever it

0:56:17is.

0:56:19Like it is now in some places.

0:56:21so that you've got that common frame of reference that will make people use this feature more.

0:56:30The flip side of this too is that the little quick menus thing on icons on the iPhone,

0:56:37I have those moments where I wish I had those on my iPad and I don't.

0:56:41I have this feeling of like, "Wait, I just bought this high-end iPad Pro and this is

0:56:45a feature that's in the OS, but because they are not providing me any alternative to it,

0:56:51I just don't get that feature.

0:56:54It makes you feel inconsistent and saying well you know we're limiting that to this

0:56:59one piece of hardware for an interface convention seems kind of messed up.

0:57:05So I just feel like it's not good enough and I got some push back from people who are like

0:57:10what do you mean the problem with 3D touch?

0:57:12I use 3D touch.

0:57:13It's like yeah okay people do use 3D touch.

0:57:15I'm not saying they're bad people right?

0:57:17I'm saying, I think this is amazing technology that I find myself not using very often, and

0:57:25why is that?

0:57:26And the answer is, I don't think it's good enough, I think that Apple needs to make a

0:57:30bigger effort to make 3D Touch something that anybody who's got a 3D Touch capable device

0:57:38wants to use all the time.

0:57:40And I feel like now there are a lot of people, and I'm including myself in this but I've

0:57:45to other people like this who after the initial novelty war is off just kind of don't bother

0:57:51because it's not that useful or they only use it for a couple of things. So that's

0:57:57really my feeling is like they did some really great engineering to make this feature but

0:58:03I think just hoarding it on a couple of devices and having it be this like third click kind

0:58:09of thing is selling it short.

0:58:12Yeah, I was thinking that maybe one thing they could do would be to, for the iPad Pros,

0:58:22have this long press, right? Because I feel like we're such a long way away from Force

0:58:27Touch or 3D Touch on an iPad screen because of the sizes of them, it might be a good thing

0:58:34to say, you know, WWDC and iOS 10. I think iOS 10 is going to see a lot of advancements

0:58:393D Touch honestly. That would be great. And I think it would be nice if they said, "Oh,

0:58:44and on the iPad Pro you can now long press." But you see, this is the challenge, right?

0:58:49The iPad Pros now are being sold these new top of the line iOS devices that don't have

0:58:54it. So you're never going to be able as an app developer to rely on 3D Touch for your

0:59:01apps, right? Because it's only on people who have, and yeah, the number of people with

0:59:05devices will grow, but the iPads don't have it, the iPhone SE doesn't have it, and that's

0:59:13the problem with saying, "Oh, this is an exclusive feature that does some very special

0:59:16things only on these devices," is you will never put your important features on that

0:59:22feature because only some devices have it.

0:59:26So it becomes a place that you dump odd features.

0:59:30Like seriously, I know some people use this, but is force touch in my Magic Trackpad so

0:59:39that, essentially solely so that I can define words I don't recognize in Safari?

0:59:45Yeah, I have to say I never ever use force touch on my Magic Trackpad.

0:59:52I can't even remember what I would use it for, right?

0:59:56I still do the three finger tap for defining words.

1:00:01It just doesn't, the use isn't the same.

1:00:063D touch makes sense to me because I'm touching the screen,

1:00:10like I'm touching the elements.

1:00:12That's where it makes sense to me.

1:00:14It's like I'm pushing them.

1:00:16I don't feel like, there is a disconnect in my brain

1:00:20between the hand and the cursor on the screen.

1:00:23I think it's one of the things why I love iOS

1:00:25because I'm actually, I feel like I'm working with my hands.

1:00:30- Yeah, you're directly interacting

1:00:32with what's on the screen.

1:00:33That's how I feel when I edit podcasts in Ferrite

1:00:35is that I feel like I'm,

1:00:37I mean, I've joked about artisanal handcrafted podcasts,

1:00:40but it feels like that when I'm editing that.

1:00:41I am making this podcast with my hands,

1:00:45and that's not the same

1:00:46when I'm using a mouse and a keyboard.

1:00:47You remove that abstraction,

1:00:49and that's one of the reasons, yeah,

1:00:54that iOS is great on iPad and iPhone is that you're interacting directly.

1:00:58I think in the end it comes down to the fact that this is technology that's added to

1:01:02an operating system after all of the interactions have already been defined.

1:01:06And so if they had Force Touch from the very beginning, or 3D Touch from the very beginning

1:01:11on the Mac and iOS, it would be different because they would be like, "Well, how do

1:01:15we…" and "On all devices, how would we do this?

1:01:18How would we define it?"

1:01:19And I think it would be… it's a perfect alternate click, alternate tap.

1:01:23But instead it's only on some devices and it was added after the fact and it's this

1:01:28and that was really my biggest point is I think this is amazing clever interaction technology

1:01:35that's kind of being let down by the vision of the people who are building the operating

1:01:43system that there's a disconnect between the invention of this stuff and the implementation

1:01:51and it bugs me because I do like the technology.

1:01:55And I'm not saying that the long press is the right answer,

1:01:58it's an answer that I came up with

1:02:01and that Gruber and I were both talking about.

1:02:05I wanna give him credit, he really did spark this in me

1:02:08when we had that conversation.

1:02:09But it might not be the right answer.

1:02:13There are lots of complicated things about,

1:02:15oh, what happened to the existing long presses

1:02:17and how do you deal with those?

1:02:18like moving and deleting apps in the home screen is one of them. There's a lot of issues

1:02:24there. There might be a better solution. I don't know. I'm not trying to prescribe one

1:02:27particular answer and say that I've got it. But I do feel like this technology needs to

1:02:32be more central and it's not. And it's sort of sad. And that's the trouble with 3D Touch.

1:02:42I think one of the things that makes the 3D Touch thing different to other hardware editions,

1:02:47because there are always hardware additions that affect the software and developers have

1:02:50to do things for, is that usually you see them. Right? So when they make the screens

1:02:56bigger, you see the changes, you know, "Oh, this change is great, I'm happy this developer

1:03:00implemented it because now it just looks fantastic." But this is actually something that's hidden,

1:03:05really, until you do something to it. You have to kind of know it's there to know to

1:03:09take advantage of it.

1:03:10And discoverability is a huge issue too. This is something that came up on Twitter while

1:03:13we were talking about this, just back and forth with a bunch of people, and Grouper

1:03:19was involved, and so there were a bunch of people who followed Grouper and followed me,

1:03:23and therefore a whole bunch of people saw our conversation about this and jumped in.

1:03:27And one of the things that struck me is that somebody said, "Oh my god, I had no idea

1:03:34you could move the cursor around using 3D Touch."

1:03:39Because it's not discoverable, right?

1:03:41I mean, this is an invisible feature, and that's another--I didn't even get into that

1:03:45in my story on Macworld, but the other problem with 3D Touch is how do you teach people how

1:03:50to use it?

1:03:52Because you won't, you know, you could never chance on it, chance upon it, right?

1:03:58So that's a challenge too, is how do you make this something that gets into your user's

1:04:02vocabulary?

1:04:03>> I don't know.

1:04:05>> I don't know.

1:04:07why they pay the geniuses at Apple to figure this stuff out, right? I mean, this is, I

1:04:12should say again, one of the things about us talking about these issues is we're not

1:04:19saying that we have all the answers here, and we're not saying this is an easy solution.

1:04:23I think it's not. I think if it was an easy solution, Apple would have solved it, right?

1:04:29But I do think it's not good enough, and I think it's worth pointing out that it needs

1:04:34to be better and I hope that it will be better. But it's not that it's an easy problem to

1:04:39solve. I think it's a hard problem to solve but I do think it still needs solving. I don't

1:04:42think it's done. I don't think Apple can look at the way 3D Touch works today on iOS and

1:04:47say, "Solid. We're done here. Let's just put it on the devices gradually and everything

1:04:52will be fine." Because I just don't think it's good enough.

1:04:54Do you know what is good enough? Is it one of our friends?

1:05:00Well, I was going to say Ask Upgrade and then I was going to say, "Do you know what's even

1:05:03more good enough and that's FreshBooks.

1:05:05Ah, well I totally ruined that for you then. But FreshBooks is good. It's more than good

1:05:09enough, Myke.

1:05:10That's correct. Let me tell you why. Because FreshBooks are on a mission to help small

1:05:13business owners save time and avoid the stress that comes with running their businesses.

1:05:18I cannot say how much I love FreshBooks. Like it is not possible for me to express how easy

1:05:26this makes a complicated and kind of not fun part of my job,

1:05:31which is sending out invoices.

1:05:33Last week, we sent our 500th invoice at Relay FM

1:05:37through FreshBooks.

1:05:38And this is because they have created a super intuitive tool

1:05:42that makes creating and sending these invoices simple.

1:05:45I sit down on a Friday, send out a bunch of invoices,

1:05:48and it's a breeze because it takes just 30 seconds

1:05:51to create and send one.

1:05:52You can give your clients tons of ways to pay you

1:05:55and that's just all built in.

1:05:56You set it up once and it's just attached

1:05:58to all of the invoices that you want it attached to, right?

1:06:00And you can say you want to get paid by PayPal,

1:06:03you want to get paid by card payment,

1:06:06and you can give your clients all of the information

1:06:09to pay you by check and to pay you by bank transfer.

1:06:12That's all in there, and this means

1:06:14because it's right up front and you can give people

1:06:16online ways to pay, we integrate with Stripe, for example,

1:06:19FreshBooks lets you do all of that,

1:06:21that you will get paid five days faster.

1:06:24This is something that FreshBooks have found.

1:06:26Their customers get paid five days faster

1:06:28because it's so easy for your clients to pay their invoices.

1:06:32You can see if somebody's looked at an invoice,

1:06:34you can set up automatic late payment reminders.

1:06:37This takes a lot of distress and worry

1:06:39out of people not paying you.

1:06:41And also just, you know, in case they've forgotten,

1:06:43which happens so often, that your invoice just hits an inbox

1:06:46that gets another thousand emails every day.

1:06:49It's just make sure that it's at the front of mind

1:06:51of the person you're sending your invoice to.

1:06:53You can track all of your expenses, you can scan them using the FreshBooks app on your

1:06:59iPhone for example, it makes it super easy to organise them for later.

1:07:03They have time tracking if that's something you need to do and support is amazing at FreshBooks.

1:07:07It's at the core of their business, they really believe in it.

1:07:09If you call FreshBooks, there's no phone tree, you call and someone will pick up.

1:07:13And if their support team is busy, every phone in the FreshBooks office will ring until somebody

1:07:19picks it up and helps you out.

1:07:20This is how much they believe in it.

1:07:22You could be talking to anyone, the VP of Marketing for example.

1:07:26They will pick up the phone if there's nobody available and they will help you out with

1:07:30what you need.

1:07:31That's how much they believe in it.

1:07:33Getting started with FreshBooks is simple.

1:07:35You don't need to be a numbers person.

1:07:36There's one number you need to know and that's 30 because that's how many days you're going

1:07:40to get a free trial of because you listen to this show.

1:07:43There's no credit card required to do this.

1:07:45To claim your 30 days of unrestricted use go to FreshBooks.com/upgrade and please enter

1:07:50upgrade in the "How you heard about us" section so FreshBooks knows you came from this show.

1:07:55Thank you so much to FreshBooks for their continued support of Upgrade and Relay FM.

1:08:00I love FreshBooks, Jason.

1:08:03I am one of those people who pays their invoices much faster when I get something from FreshBooks.

1:08:08Bingo.

1:08:09Yeah.

1:08:10There you go.

1:08:11If you ever send a--if you need to send an invoice to Jason, use FreshBooks.

1:08:15Jim Metzendorf knows what I'm talking about.

1:08:17He gets it!

1:08:18He knows.

1:08:19knows. Alright, so, first question this week comes in from Myke. Myke asks, "Why does the

1:08:25App Store show iPhone screenshots on the iPad Pro and not iPad screenshots?" I don't know

1:08:30why Myke, and it's incredibly frustrating that this hasn't been fixed yet.

1:08:34Yep. I don't know how this bug still exists.

1:08:38Yeah. There's no good reason. There's no good answer. It's dumb.

1:08:43Yeah. It just shouldn't be the case. The iPad Pro couldn't be further away from the iPhone

1:08:49in screen size but yet somehow their screenshots gets mixed up in the app store. It's been

1:08:53like this since day one on the iPad Pro. Shouldn't be the case. I don't have an answer for you

1:08:58Myke except for it's a silly bug. Wes wants to know, "What is the process that you go

1:09:04through when naming a new show?" I've just done that with the ring post. So I kind of

1:09:10will basically just keep working on it until I find something that feels right. So this

1:09:16can be brainstorming, talking to people, until I find the name that works. And then there's

1:09:21usually a process of once you've got the name, checking that it's available in certain places,

1:09:25right? Like I had the idea of the ring post and then found I could get the ringpost.com.

1:09:29And I was like, once I can get that domain, I'm good to rock and roll. And that's not

1:09:34the domain I'm using, it forwards, but I like ringpost.fm more because it just fits with

1:09:39what I like. But I found a name that I really liked. I could imagine me saying it, I could

1:09:45see how the artwork could look and once I've kind of got that feel for it, that's when

1:09:50it starts to become a thing.

1:09:52Yeah, I agree. Sometimes you end up looking... sometimes you get something that feels right

1:09:56and then you do some searches and realize that it has meanings that you didn't anticipate

1:10:03and so you can't use it or yeah, or all the domains are taken or there's a very popular

1:10:07podcast already with that name. I feel like sometimes there's like, oh, there was a...

1:10:10somebody had a podcast with that name that hasn't posted a new episode in three years

1:10:15was about a different subject and I'm just not going to worry about it because it's not

1:10:20quite like there can only be one of anything. But with The Incomparable, we were talking

1:10:28about names for The Incomparable back in the day. And The Incomparable has its name because

1:10:33Greg Noss had the incomparable.com and I thought that was kind of a funny name and it was cool

1:10:38that it was a dot com domain. Literally that was it. But we threw around a bunch of other

1:10:43names and one of them ones, because we were talking a lot about, in the early episodes

1:10:47especially, about zeppelins, right? And there's a zeppelin on the Uncomparable logo. And we

1:10:53were joking at one point that maybe we were going to call the podcast Zeppelin Enthusiast.

1:10:58The problem is Led Zeppelin, right? A zeppelin enthusiast loves Led Zeppelin. And we were

1:11:04not a Led Zeppelin podcast, and we needed to not put the word Zeppelin in our name.

1:11:09not only is it difficult for some people to spell, but it has one context really that

1:11:14is way outside of rigid airships from the early part of the 20th century, and so never

1:11:21mind. So sometimes it comes up like that too, where you're like, "Oh, well this would

1:11:24have been a good idea." And then other times we were talking about a bunch of names for

1:11:28Total Party Kill, but Total Party Kill seemed right and there wasn't anything with that

1:11:32name and we thought it was funny because the suggestion there is failure. Total Party Kill,

1:11:37for those who don't know, in Dungeons and Dragons is where everybody dies. And it means

1:11:42you've completely failed at what you were doing. Although we've only had one of those

1:11:48in our entire run of Total Party Kill and it was the very first session, since then

1:11:54we haven't had that but it's just a funny name and I think our logo even had for a while

1:11:59a 20 sided die with a 1 on it which is bad. So that's it. I was trying to remember Upgrade

1:12:06and I did find one email that we went back and forth, but we'd already come down to

1:12:12a couple of names at that point. But my recollection is that we ended up with sort of, and Liftoff

1:12:19was like this too, we ended up with like a Google Doc and we all put some names in it.

1:12:22In the end we had sort of five or six that we felt okay about and there were a couple

1:12:28that we all liked. And then I did find an email where you said, "Okay, here are these

1:12:33two names that I think are the best based on our discussions. And I slightly prefer

1:12:41this one to this one, but I could really go either way. And I have some concerns about

1:12:47upgrade. You told me I have some concerns about upgrade because it doesn't sound like

1:12:50-- because this is fresh off of me leaving IDG -- does it sound like you are making an

1:12:55upgrade by leaving Macworld? And my response to you was, "I don't mind that connotation

1:13:03at all. I think my concern was I didn't want to look disrespectful but as soon as you said

1:13:08you liked it that was the winner for me. Yeah. Right? As soon as you, because I hoped that

1:13:13it would be an upgrade of your life. Exactly. Then that ended up being part of the thinking

1:13:19behind the show's name. We just wanted a technology sounding name. Exactly. And that's kind of

1:13:25what we came out of and then as is usual Frank develops an incredible brand around the show

1:13:31and then once we see that artwork, the names never, they're just locked in because they

1:13:36look at your works.

1:13:38The first artwork you sent me, because I also saw this today when I was looking this up,

1:13:41the first artwork you sent me, I just said that's it, yes, right? The clockwise artwork

1:13:46we went back and forth about five times.

1:13:48Because it already existed. That's part of the problem. When it's brand new, that's where

1:13:55our amazing designer, he just takes it and creates something. But when there's a pre-existing

1:14:02thing, there usually is a bit more tweaking because you have more of a view in your mind

1:14:06as to how you want it to look, right? Like it can be a bit more tricky.

1:14:08We'd already done whatever 70 episodes of it and had an idea of what the podcast was

1:14:14and so that had to fit, so that was trickier. But with Upgrade, you know, it was the red

1:14:18circle with the white symbol and I was like, "Yep, great."

1:14:24With the ring post, I did something with Frank that I've never done before, which was I sent

1:14:29him a crudely drawn sketch as to how I wanted it to look. Because I know wrestling and he

1:14:37doesn't, right? That was part of it. For me, I felt like it had a real thing, right? For

1:14:47me, as soon as I thought of the name, I knew exactly how the artwork needed to look. So

1:14:51So I sent that to him and as usual we did an incredible job.

1:14:54Yeah, he did.

1:14:55Knocked it out of the park as always.

1:14:57Okay Lando would like to know, and Lando is actually the second person to ask this week,

1:15:01what is mailbagging?

1:15:02Now we've dealt with this before.

1:15:05Yep, so I pulled this straight back out of a previous show and it's going to go back

1:15:08into the show notes today which is an explanation for what mailbagging is.

1:15:12I don't know why two people asked in the last seven days but that happens.

1:15:16So for Lando, basically this is what mailbagging is.

1:15:21When your email server is unavailable, MailBagging stores the emails sent to your MailExchange

1:15:25server and sends them to you when your system is back online.

1:15:33The reason this is the thing, Jason said MailBagging and the first time we did the MailRoute ad

1:15:37and I couldn't stop laughing.

1:15:40And now I just love the way it sounds and say it.

1:15:44MailRoute when they updated their ad with us this year, they didn't have the MailBagging

1:15:47thing in there.

1:15:48it back in because I couldn't imagine us talking about mail route and not talking about mail

1:15:55bagging.

1:15:56All right, Tom would like to know what type of stand do you use for your iPad Pro? So

1:16:02I don't use anything other than the smart cover. I don't think you do either. I use

1:16:06the smart keyboard, but I don't use any stands. I know you mentioned something that is in

1:16:11beta that you're looking at, which is kind of a stand.

1:16:15Yeah, so I've got the old Origami workstation, which I still have been using, which is a

1:16:24stand and a keyboard holder in one for the old Apple wireless keyboard.

1:16:27There's a beta stand that I can't talk about, but that hopefully will be a real product

1:16:35soon that is for the Magic Keyboard that does the same thing as the Origami, basically.

1:16:42a case and then you unfold it and you can you can use it as a stand. At home I've also got this

1:16:49wooden stand that I got at Macworld Expo that is sort of a kitchen stand but I will sometimes use

1:16:54that too. You can slot your iPad in there and but you know a lot of the time yeah it's just the

1:17:00the smart cover. Yeah I've been I've wanted to try and find some stands I'm thinking now like I would

1:17:09like to maybe have a stand of some description. I would love to know if anybody is using a

1:17:13stand with their iPad Pro, what they're using. I would be very interested in seeing what

1:17:20they are.

1:17:22Yeah, and Gray posted a picture of his iPad workstation. And I thought that was great

1:17:32because I thought about that too, about creating the equivalent of my iMac workstation for

1:17:38for an iPad Pro, but mostly that's in my kitchen.

1:17:42Mostly I will just go during the day over to the bar

1:17:45in my kitchen and put the iPad on a stand there,

1:17:47and that's my sort of standing iPad workstation,

1:17:50and then I'll go back to my desk, but yeah.

1:17:53- Yeah, Gray has kind of a standing desk iPad setup,

1:17:57but even he doesn't like the stand that he's using,

1:17:59but it's the only one that he's found

1:18:01that will work with the iPad Pro in the way that he wants.

1:18:03- Right.

1:18:04- But yeah, so I would love to know

1:18:05anybody who's using anything like this would be great.

1:18:11Okay so next up we have from Nathan and Nathan asks "Will the need to differentiate iPad

1:18:18Pro and non-Pro lines, as you know that's happening now as we need to try and split

1:18:23them apart a bit, do you think we might see 5C like plastic iPads at some point in the

1:18:29future? Maybe the iPad mini or something?"

1:18:32I don't. I don't. For the same reason the 5c went away. If the 5c stuck around, then

1:18:41yes I do think we would see those. Because the 5c isn't around anymore, I don't think

1:18:46we'll see them. Will we see colors like the iPod touch? I think that is more likely. But

1:18:51just colored aluminium instead of plastic. Yeah, I mean the 5c didn't stick around which

1:19:00suggests to me that it didn't meet Apple's expectations. I think the

1:19:03the conventional wisdom is that perhaps it was perceived as cheap and even on

1:19:09the lower cost iPad I would think that Apple doesn't want it to be perceived as

1:19:14cheap and that they feel like their identity right now is the you know that

1:19:18that aluminum back is part of the value of these Apple products so I think it's

1:19:27not likely. Same thing as you, Myke. If the 5C design language had stuck around, I would

1:19:34feel different about it. But yeah, hey, anodized aluminum colors on those things, maybe that's

1:19:40the approach. That might be fun.

1:19:44And lastly, Brian, do you think that extra features of the 9.7-inch iPad Pro indicate

1:19:50an upgrade this year for the 12.9, or will it stick to a potential two-year cycle that

1:19:55we've been talking about.

1:19:58My gut feeling is that it will be upgraded to match the 9 7 in terms of the screen and

1:20:07stuff like that in a year maybe?

1:20:12That seems like not a bad cycle.

1:20:13I would love to see those two get in sync.

1:20:18But off the top of my head that's the thing that struck me is that maybe we'll see a new

1:20:23new 12.9 inch next spring, sort of a year out from the 9.7 inch being introduced.

1:20:31I think that what we'll see is next spring an update for both of them.

1:20:37So the 12.9 ends up being about 18 months old or something by that point.

1:20:42I think they have to do it that way for it to make sense going forward.

1:20:46I think releasing these two products out of sync by six months is crazy.

1:20:53making. Just wait and then release them both and I think that they will go

1:20:58like many iPads have recently they will have a one year and then it will go to

1:21:03two years in renewal. I think that I genuinely think that's what we're gonna

1:21:06see for the iPads line going forward. I just don't think there's enough going on

1:21:12in the iPad line to say that you need an update every year in all honesty I just

1:21:16don't see it. Yeah it's possible with the pros it might be a little bit different

1:21:20if they've got other stuff that they want to load in there on a yearly basis.

1:21:23But I do think we will see an update to that 12.9 that will bring it, you know,

1:21:31the features that it doesn't have that the 9.7 has. And then perhaps the 9.7 will also be updated at

1:21:36that point and they'll be in parity. They'll be the same more or less with the exception of their screen.

1:21:44So that's it, Jason?

1:21:46Yeah, we've reached the end.

1:21:48Yep, from as we speak currently the iPad recording worked. You will know listening to this episode

1:21:56if it did. Right? We don't know.

1:21:59I sound great. Although in a different room than usual.

1:22:02Exactly. If you want to find our show notes for this week head on over to relay.fm/upgrades/84

1:22:07but they should be in your fantastic app of choice. If you'd like to find Jason head on

1:22:14on over to SixColors.com where you can find his great writing. Obviously he does more

1:22:19shows over at TheIncomparableWar.com too. And Jason is @JasonL on Twitter. JSNELL. I

1:22:26am @imikeyke and I do some stuff occasionally over at MykeWasRight.com. As we mentioned

1:22:34a couple of times during the show, I'm not here next week. I'm going to be in Atlanta.

1:22:37But Jason will be bringing on another super special, extra special guest to join him as

1:22:43of yet unannounced guest. But there will be someone super special. Maybe more special

1:22:49than me even if you can imagine such a thing. Thank you so much to Casper, ITProTV and Freshbooks

1:22:57for helping make this show possible and we'll be back, well I'll be back in another time

1:23:02Jason we'll be back next time. Until then, say goodbye Mr Snell.

1:23:07Have a good time in the USA Myke. What is it ROCK in the USA?

1:23:12That's it. That's what I'm gonna be doing.

1:23:14USA. USA. USA.

1:23:16PEN in the USA is what I'm...

1:23:18say is well I'm...

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