70: I Could Call My iPhone a Muffin

0:00:00[Music]

0:00:08From Relay FM, happy new year. This is Upgrade Episode number 70.

0:00:13Today's show is brought to you by Casper and Squarespace.

0:00:16My name is Myke Hurley and I am joined by the 2016 version of Mr. Jason Snell.

0:00:21Hello Myke Hurley.

0:00:23How are you feeling today? Do you feel ready to go for the new year?

0:00:26I do. It is that moment where you're, you got to become engaged in the new year, the

0:00:34holiday break is over. I had to set my alarm last night, which was interesting because

0:00:39I haven't done that for the last two weeks because I mostly set my alarm so that, you

0:00:44know, as you know, I work out of my house. I could pretty much get up any time. But I

0:00:49got to get the kids up and off to school. And so I had to do that last night. I was

0:00:53"Oh yeah, alarm clock." And I woke up this morning when the alarm went off and I thought,

0:00:57"Wow, it's really dark." Because I've been waking up a little bit later, but that's okay.

0:01:01It's sort of after a couple of weeks, I think it's a good feeling to get back in the swim

0:01:06and I feel like ready to go and enthusiastic about doing it. So that's good for me. How

0:01:12about you?

0:01:13Yeah, yeah, I'm feeling pretty good. I mean, I'm still, I decided to like ease in today,

0:01:18you know, like in the transition period. Because I've been kind of working all the way through

0:01:22the break anyway just not as much as usual but now we're back on regularly

0:01:26regularly scheduled programming this week which we haven't been for the last two

0:01:29weeks so that's gonna be the yeah the interesting part of coming back from

0:01:33this break because I haven't done that in the last like very year I haven't

0:01:36really taken a break where I've been at home and because even when I go on

0:01:40holidays the majority of the time I record everything in advance or something

0:01:44like that but this one has been just just straight out like we're just not

0:01:47doing them for a couple of weeks on a couple of shows and that's been that's

0:01:51been nice. But I'm happy to get back into it.

0:01:53It's, at IDG we used to have, they used to sort of give us the week between Christmas

0:01:59and New Year's off, and doing this myself, I can't do that. I've enjoyed kind of working

0:02:04a lighter schedule, but I also am not abandoning, we used to like have a bunch of people would

0:02:12sign up for like a half day where they would be monitoring the websites and posting some

0:02:15stories and stuff, and that's how you cover the break. And of course when it's just me,

0:02:19Dan has been on vacation, so it was literally just me at six colors. So I've been doing

0:02:24a little bit of work on that and I had some podcast stuff to do, but it was a light schedule

0:02:27and that was kind of, that felt fine. That was kind of enjoyable that it was just a reduced

0:02:32schedule. And one of the nice things about not having all the ads sold, a lot of times

0:02:37ads don't, people don't want to buy ads after Christmas because they want to market before

0:02:42the holidays and not after. So I was very happy to make the decision with Clockwise

0:02:47for example, to not do episodes the last couple weeks of the year. Nice to have a break, and

0:02:53now we'll spin it back up and get going. But that was, by not selling the ads, we had the

0:02:56option of doing those shows or not, and during the course of the year we would still do shows

0:03:01without sponsors just because consistency is important. But at the end of the year it

0:03:05felt like it was good. Take a little vacation from it and then come back fresh in the new

0:03:08year. So it's good to be able to have that flexibility and to do some of that. But now,

0:03:14yeah, we re back to full schedule, as you say.

0:03:18David: Mm hmm, fully scheduled. Talking about the holidays, I received a lovely gift package

0:03:22from you.

0:03:23Geoff - Yes, I m glad you got it.

0:03:25David - Yeah, it included a couple of things. It had some brain balls, which are sitting

0:03:30on my desk. Mini brain balls, we ll call them.

0:03:32Geoff - That was an incomparable, some members of the incomparable crew, if they received

0:03:37a package from me, I ordered some foam brain balls and I sent those to people. So you also

0:03:44received some brain balls. Use them wisely.

0:03:47>> But the most—I will. I have it in my hand right now. It is my new kind of—

0:03:51>> Good. Excellent.

0:03:52>> —whilst recording "Fiddling with Something" toy.

0:03:54>> That's what it's for.

0:03:55>> And you sent me something that was very curious. I didn't really understand what

0:04:01you had sent me until I unfurled it and realized—

0:04:04>> It's a very large sort of canvas object, right?

0:04:08>> Yes, exactly. And I realized you had sent me an actual mailbag.

0:04:13I went on eBay. I had this flash where I was like, you know, what would be funny is if

0:04:20there was a mailbag I could send to Myke to celebrate mailbagging. And I went on eBay

0:04:25and they had vintage US Postal Service mailbags and I bought one. Actually, I had, that was

0:04:32my second auction that I had to do before I could finally acquire it and then had to

0:04:37ship it to the UK, which was a challenge and not cheap to ship things to the UK. But in

0:04:42the end, the mailbag is in your possession. And it's big. I don't know what you're going

0:04:46to put in it, if anything, but you could put a lot of mail in that bag, I'm just saying.

0:04:51David: Yeah, at the moment, it hasn't got anything in it, but I might put like, the

0:04:56mail I don't like can just go in that bag. It can be where all my bank statements go,

0:05:00into the mailbag. Thank you very much for my mailbag.

0:05:03Tim: Yes, you're welcome. I'm glad. That was a good idea. Too good to pass up the mailbag.

0:05:09a special thing for you and me. So I'm glad you got it.

0:05:14Should we do some follow up? It's a great idea.

0:05:18This is all follow up mainly from a couple of weeks ago because obviously we did the

0:05:22illustrious upgrade last week. Angus wrote in to say, and this is in response to somebody

0:05:27from a previous Ask Upgrade segment about having a stuck app update on the Apple TV,

0:05:34Angus wrote in to say, "To force a TV app update, you can go to the apps page in the

0:05:38store and update directly from that page. Which kind of makes sense, right? So something

0:05:43stuck because it's got an update pending, go to the store and instead of letting you

0:05:49download it again, it will let you download the new update, which is a good top tip there

0:05:53from Angus. Although I have not run into this, mainly because I don't use many apps on Apple

0:05:59TV.

0:06:00**Matt Stauffer** Nor have I felt the need to do an update.

0:06:03would be like you find out that there's an update and then and that enables something

0:06:09and why don't I have that feature oh I guess maybe I need to force an update no I've never

0:06:13had that experience on the Apple TV because I'm mostly just sort of using it.

0:06:17There aren't any apps that are cool enough really I think you know that have got like

0:06:22exciting enough features right now which are compelling you to force these updates but

0:06:28I do believe it will change eventually.

0:06:30- Sure, sure.

0:06:31- Listen to Jason wrote in to say,

0:06:33I wanted to make a plug for Myke's choice

0:06:35of one password for Mac because of one password for Teams.

0:06:38So Jason wanted to just point out

0:06:40the greatness of one password for Teams.

0:06:42Now I have not actually used this yet, Jason,

0:06:44but I believe that you have.

0:06:45- I've used it a little bit.

0:06:46I set up one, a team for the incomparable incorporated.

0:06:50Right now there's one vault in there that is for

0:06:55all of our kind of sort of,

0:06:58it's like bank and corporate credit card and log into other kind of data stuff that my

0:07:03wife and I both use because she's sort of the CFO of the company. She's got a business

0:07:13degree and she does the payroll and all that stuff. And so this way, instead of me sending

0:07:19her a password or her sending me a password, we have a shared vault. And then I also have

0:07:24a vault for hosts that I haven't rolled out to people yet because I've been waiting for

0:07:28this to roll out across all the one password apps. But I have a lot of hosts who need to

0:07:33know the logins for the FTP server where you upload your podcast files and for the CMS

0:07:38where you post your podcasts. And what I'm going to do is I'm going to put those in the

0:07:43host vault and share that with the hosts so that they have access to that instead of me

0:07:49having to, you know, tell every new host, here are all the passwords for all the logins

0:07:54that you need to do this, you know, as a guest host. Instead, I'll just be able to say, "Let

0:07:59me invite you to the 1Password Vault." So it's fun. It's a nice idea that you can share different

0:08:05levels of access with people in your work group. And then it sort of just kind of melds

0:08:12in with your personal 1Password Vault. You can separate them out if you want, but you

0:08:17can also just, I think by default, it's all vaults. And so when you search for something,

0:08:20If it's in your team vault or it's in your regular vault, it all works together.

0:08:25It's very cool.

0:08:27Yeah, this is something that I really should look into a little bit more because me and

0:08:34Steven obviously share a bunch of stuff, like a bunch of logins.

0:08:37And what happens is we just iMessage each other the 1Password links, right, to add them

0:08:41to our individual accounts, like our 1Password apps.

0:08:44But it probably makes sense for us to look into 1Password for teams.

0:08:47It seems like a good solution.

0:08:49Yeah.

0:08:50Yeah, it's a cool idea.

0:08:51It's a cool idea.

0:08:52If you need to share secret information in a work group,

0:08:56that's what it's for.

0:08:57- And Steve wanted to write in to share some artwork

0:09:02that he and his daughter had created

0:09:05in the Pigment coloring app,

0:09:07following our upgradey suggestion for Pigment

0:09:11as the best name over the year,

0:09:12which has reminded me, I will put in the show notes, Jason,

0:09:16a link to some of my favorite work that I have done

0:09:20in the Pigment app.

0:09:23Oh boy, do I love this app so much.

0:09:24- It looks like, so is Pigment,

0:09:26are the things that you can color in Pigment,

0:09:29are those specially kind of marked up

0:09:31so that it knows where the borders are and things like that?

0:09:33- Oh yeah, yeah, yep.

0:09:34- So it's not just, 'cause my initial thought was

0:09:37it's too bad that you can't like take a picture of something

0:09:40and then color that in of a piece of paper,

0:09:43but it seems like what they're doing

0:09:44is some special markup information about sensing all the lines and all the regions and things

0:09:50like that in order to make it a better experience.

0:09:52Yeah, it is 100% that. There is a mode where you can click inside of an empty field and

0:09:59if you just color you don't go over the lines. So they're doing analysis to work out the

0:10:04specific areas. And plus the way that the app works is a subscription that you pay and

0:10:09get new books as they're generated or as they're added into their library. But yeah, that's

0:10:16how it works. And yeah, it would be quite nice. I think someone should still make that

0:10:20app. But that seems a little bit more tricky as to how you get that. You'd still have to

0:10:25buy the books and then you have to take the pictures, right?

0:10:29If you take a look at my pigment work there, I'll put a link in the show notes.

0:10:32Oh, I haven't. You want me to...

0:10:34Yeah, I just want you to appreciate...

0:10:36To judge a wow.

0:10:37the beauty. These are four of my favorites. They'll be in our show notes if you want to find them.

0:10:43Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, I love it. The Lion one is the one that I like the most.

0:10:48I worked really hard on that one. It looks great. I love this coloring, man. It's fantastic.

0:10:55It's so much fun. All right, let's do some follow-out. I have a couple of little things

0:11:01that we want to talk about. The first one is relay-related. MacPowerUsers, the institution

0:11:08that is MacPowerUsers, will be celebrating their 300th show in a couple of weeks time.

0:11:14And for this occasion, myself and Steven are going to be taking the reins and we're going to be

0:11:21talking to and interviewing Katie and David about the show and about their workflows and stuff like

0:11:26Nice. And we want you guys to get involved, so if you will tweet with the hashtag #MPU300,

0:11:32me and Steve will be able to collect those tweets and we'll be able to include your questions

0:11:37to Katie and David in honor of their 300th episode of MacPow Users, which is kind of

0:11:43astounding in and of itself. We're talking about podcasts with really high numbers.

0:11:48Yes, the incomparable. We need to do something. I am considering converting the incomparable

0:11:56to David and Katie's schedule, which is they do a bonus episode every month. Is that right?

0:12:02Yeah, they do like a live, it's MPU live.

0:12:06Yeah. So I'm thinking about that because that's why I've gotten behind them. But it's because

0:12:12they're cheating.

0:12:14You need to just do 20 bonus episodes in a week.

0:12:16Yeah, well, we practically did that one for Star Wars. That's almost what we did. It almost

0:12:22killed me. It's things that I edited that other people were on. We did post, if people

0:12:27don't know, we posted four episodes about Star Wars The Force Awakens on The Incomparable

0:12:32in the course of a week after the movie came out. Four different panels, four different

0:12:36hosts. I only hosted one of them. So in the end, we ended up with, I don't know what that

0:12:40seven and a half hours of people talking about Star Wars. But this follow-out is not about

0:12:47that. It's just I wanted to mention the "Incomparable 281," which is our latest episode posted over

0:12:51the weekend. It's our year in review episode. And there's a few things that are good about

0:12:55it. It is a long episode. It's two and a half hours long. The first hour is our most common

0:13:01panelists, most popular panelists on the show talking about the things that they liked for

0:13:072015. So if you're looking for recommendations for great movies and TV shows and books and

0:13:12comics and other stuff, video games, that there's a...one of the listeners compiled

0:13:19all of the things that we mentioned and it's in the show notes, which is great because

0:13:22I didn't do it. I was too exhausted from putting it together. So I think it's fun just on that

0:13:28if you don't regularly listen to the incomparable. And then the second half of the show is favorite

0:13:33moments of the episodes from the podcast from the year, including a lot of very fun clips,

0:13:38which took a lot of time to put together, but is kind of fun. So it's a nice wrap-up

0:13:42of 2015, both stuff and also for the podcast itself. So people should check that out.

0:13:49Yeah, most definitely. Most definitely. I'm nearly finished with the episode, and I enjoy

0:13:54it immensely. The whole--

0:13:57There's something very special at the very end of the episode.

0:13:59Oh, I haven't gotten there yet. Good. The Skeletor thing this time far exceeded my expectations.

0:14:07Just superb.

0:14:08Yeah, because that's, for people who don't know, an ongoing story in our end-of-year

0:14:12wrap-up episodes.

0:14:13You can't even attempt to explain this, man.

0:14:15Well, I'll just say Steve Lutz many years ago did a funny thing involving picking a

0:14:20Skeletor in a draft that we did. And since then, in every successive annual episode,

0:14:26picked as his favorite thing from the previous year. Well, the first time he picked Skeletor,

0:14:31him picking Skeletor, in every successive episodes, every subsequent end of year recap,

0:14:37he's picked his picking of Skeletor from the previous year, hoping to create a recursive

0:14:41clip loop that would consume the universe where it was just clips of clips of clips

0:14:45of clips of clips of Skeletor all the way down. But it has changed in various interesting

0:14:50ways over the course of the last four years. So that usually is a plot point in the Incompetent

0:14:56year in review episode and it is no different this year. But it's a very different take

0:15:01on it this year.

0:15:02And last up before we move into our little topics that we have this week, we have a smorgasbord

0:15:07ahead. We've got an exciting week at Relay. We have a new show launching called Canvas.

0:15:12There's...

0:15:13I listened to the pilot just the other day.

0:15:16Yes, Relay FM members got access to a pilot episode. But there is... It's all going to

0:15:23out later this week it will live at relay.fm/canvas there's nothing there yet because it's not

0:15:29live the show is Fraser Spears and Federico Vittucci talking about how to do things on

0:15:35mainly iPad but iOS and like they really go in depth into how to make things happen how

0:15:41to live and work on iOS and to take it one step further the entire show is edited on

0:15:48on iOS by Fraser. So Fraser is recording on iOS and editing in iOS. BetterEco isn't because

0:15:56I mainly won't let him so he doesn't have the equipment that he needs because of our

0:16:00other shows. But yeah, it's a very, you know, they're really, these guys, they live and

0:16:05breathe iPad and it is just going to be a fantastic show. And we have one other announcement

0:16:10later this week that will happen at the same time.

0:16:13Oh, that's exciting. As somebody who's using the iPad Pro a whole lot more, and my laptop

0:16:19a whole lot less. Even episode one, I wrote down a whole bunch of things because there

0:16:24were no show notes because it was just the pilot and it'll have complete show notes when

0:16:28it posts. Just so many great ideas for ways of doing things, as well as listening to the

0:16:35experts pinpoint with, you know, with pinpoint accuracy, the places where iOS still falls

0:16:41short and I think that's really interesting. This is not just a yay, yippee, iOS is great

0:16:46kind of podcast. They are using it day to day. They're in the trenches. They know where

0:16:51it's not good enough and that was really interesting too because I had moments where I'm like,

0:16:56"Oh, so that's not just me. That's actually hard to do. Good to know." So yeah, Canvas,

0:17:01people should check it out and I look forward to hearing your secrets.

0:17:03**Beserat Debele:** Yeah, it's going to be another fun week. We

0:17:06like to do this.

0:17:07**Matt Stauffer:** You posted a tantalizing image suggesting some

0:17:10of the secrets that might be happening on Twitter.

0:17:12But you never know from the image. You'd have to be a very, very keen observer to get it.

0:17:17Alright, so, should we take a break?

0:17:19Yeah.

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0:19:45Alright, they missed us now.

0:19:48So last week we did the Upgraders and you mentioned the Eddies.

0:19:54Yes.

0:19:55And I just, it was just, whilst I was thinking about this episode, I was like, I would like to know a little bit more about the Eddies.

0:20:01Because the Eddies are...

0:20:03They are kind of, and they have been a respected award in the Mac community.

0:20:10Something that I am trying to force with the upgradees.

0:20:13So I feel like I need to know a little bit more about the Eddies.

0:20:17So for next year, I can fully institute the upgradees as a completely prestigious and

0:20:24well-respected award ceremony.

0:20:26So what were the eddies and how did they begin?

0:20:29I just realized that as far as I can tell, that Macworld didn't do the eddy awards after

0:20:35I left, which means that they left it – the last one was the 29th annual.

0:20:40I kind of can't believe they let it lay there

0:20:45the year before the 30th,

0:20:46but they had lost all their staff.

0:20:48So how would they have put it together?

0:20:50That was a very difficult time for them.

0:20:52But yeah, so the Eddy Awards,

0:20:55I wasn't around when they started, but they were started.

0:20:57So Macworld and Mac User Magazine back in the 80s

0:20:59decided to start awards.

0:21:00Macworlds were the Editor's Choice Awards

0:21:03and they called them the Eddy Award

0:21:04and they got a statue that looks kind of like an Oscar.

0:21:07- Editor's Choice, Eddies, now I get it.

0:21:09I never understood that.

0:21:11And so, and the statue was kind of like the Oscar guy, sort of, but he's holding a classic

0:21:16Mac above his head, and it's an actual statuette with a, I've got one right here.

0:21:22So maybe next year, I, the, the, just the PNGs that I send people are not sufficient,

0:21:27we need to actually make real statues or rosettes or something.

0:21:32By the end, we, I think that was one of the problems that they had was that the statues

0:21:36cost a lot of money and the marketing department got cheaper and cheaper. But so, and the Macworld

0:21:42had world-class awards and it was, I don't really understand how the world-class awards

0:21:45worked whether they were entirely editor's choice or what, you know, whether they had

0:21:49a different process for it. It was a big process. We spent months compiling potential award

0:21:56winners and the way it worked with a Mac user at ease was that they weren't fixed categories

0:22:02every year, sort of like the upgrade-ies. We would change it based on where the interesting

0:22:07products were in the market. And so we did that for a long time. When MacWorld and MacUser

0:22:11merged in '97, there was a question about what would happen with the awards. And I think,

0:22:16for whatever reason, the Eddies won out, I think because they were more iconic and interesting,

0:22:22and MacWorld had not done a particularly great job of stewarding the world-class awards.

0:22:27it was okay. But you know, the Eddy award was like everybody wanted that statue and

0:22:32they liked, they just, so we kept it. Along with the mouse ratings, which came from Mac

0:22:36User, we kept the Eddies from Mac User and moved those over to Mac World and the same

0:22:40process happened. So, you know, over the years, I would say that the process became a lot

0:22:46less time intensive because the staff kept getting smaller. And it was a huge amount

0:22:51of time, because as a junior editor at MacUser, I spent a lot of time basically researching

0:22:58products for the Eddy Awards, and we had like four different groups or five different groups

0:23:04of editors who met every other week to go through the potential nominees and all that.

0:23:09It was crazy. And then, in the end, by the way, there's like the proverbial smoke-filled

0:23:14room where they go in and the winners come out and it was not like of a pure democracy.

0:23:22It was very much like there would be debate and there would be a consensus. We would attempt

0:23:26to reach a consensus and sometimes that would fail but in the end something would get put

0:23:32forth and then usually that list would then be viewed by the editor-in-chief and not entirely

0:23:41followed sometimes? Mostly, but not entirely. It was a whole process. There's no way to

0:23:48pin it down either. It was a complex process. But in the end, people loved being--for a

0:23:54long time we had nominees and winners. Eventually, I think we just announced winners because

0:24:02being a nominee and not a winner was kind of lousy. But the reason they did it that

0:24:06way is that it used to be that the night before Mac World Expo in January you would have an

0:24:12awards ceremony, in fact my first day on the job at Mac User in 1994, I'm gonna say, my

0:24:20first day on the job as a full-time employee was I didn't even go to the office, I put

0:24:26on a rended tux and went to the awards ceremony, that was my first day on the job.

0:24:30So do we need to like, we need to get a venue now as well?

0:24:34Well, by the end there was no ceremony. In fact, one year at Mac User we just did it on AOL.

0:24:41So it didn't, we didn't always have a ceremony and a venue and stuff like that. It's a digital age now.

0:24:50But yes, if we really wanted to class up the upgradees, we would put on outfits and do a

0:24:56live stream, I think, I suppose, a video stream of us announcing the upgrade-y. So that's

0:25:01something for you to shoot for. Think about that one.

0:25:04That's not too difficult to do. For 2016 upgrade-ies.

0:25:07What we need is just the top half of a tuxedo each.

0:25:10That's true, we could just have nothing but our pants on. And I mean pants. So, yeah.

0:25:19No, that's the wrong way around. No.

0:25:24So, yeah, it's, anyway, it was fun. It was, people really vied for it. It was a marketing

0:25:33thing. They could put any winner on their boxes.

0:25:37Did that help, do you know? Like, did that actually help these companies?

0:25:41Who could tell? I think it was generally part of the marketing story was, "This is an

0:25:46award winner. This got a rate." Ratings were the same way, right? Five mice or five

0:25:51stars from Macworld or whatever back in the day. And the awards, it's all cumulative,

0:25:55but there was a time when things were boxed and then even in the latter day just went

0:25:58on their websites to say that this is a legitimately beloved piece of software. I mean, people

0:26:04liked it. They also really liked the recognition. I mean, I still hear from people who got those

0:26:09Eddie trophies and just they love them. And especially the smaller developers having that,

0:26:15it's like that's their chance to win an Oscar. I mean, the Apple Design Award is the only

0:26:19thing left like that I would say in our industry.

0:26:23Maybe I actually haven't gotten around to sending out the rosettes for the upgradees

0:26:29of this year so maybe I should do that. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised and everyone

0:26:35will be very excited to receive their upgradees. The only person that has received their upgradees

0:26:41so far is Casey for ATP. Casey was very excited because he also took the one of the, you know,

0:26:49the one that we went for, I think it was, was it Most Disappointing or something like

0:26:54that. One of the awards that we gave was something that he suggested. So he thought he won two

0:26:57upgradeys for some reason. Because that's just Casey.

0:27:01Yeah, he didn't. He didn't. But he was influential. He was an influential thought leader, an influencer

0:27:07in the upgradey's process.

0:27:08It's a two-time winner of an upgradey. So it doesn't need to be so greedy. Upgreedy.

0:27:14That's what we call people that are multiple winners. Upgreedies. This is getting very

0:27:20convoluted. Jason, how was your 2015?

0:27:23Yeah, I put this in the document. It's our little mini thing. I wanted to ask you how

0:27:28you're... It's the beginning of a new year. I think it's worth a moment of reflection.

0:27:34My 2050 was pretty great. This was my first year as a completely independent worker. First

0:27:42complete year. And I think it went pretty well. I learned a lot. There are plenty of

0:27:49things to improve on, but I was taking a walk with my wife. We were walking the dog last

0:27:54night just before the rain started. And we were talking about looking at the finances

0:28:02and doing the books from last year and all those things. And, you know, it struck me

0:28:06that you go into something like this and you have hopes and you think that they're legitimate

0:28:12and based on reality, but you never know. And we came through the year and said, "Oh,

0:28:19look, we didn't have to sell our house and move into the countryside and raid the children's

0:28:27college savings account and things like that. We did it and it worked and there's no guarantee

0:28:36for 2016, but in 2015 I was able to transition to not getting paid by an employer and stay

0:28:43afloat and that was great. And then on the podcast side, I haven't counted how many podcasts

0:28:51I did in 2015, which I'd like to do. The Incomparable as a network did 480 some episodes in 2014,

0:28:592015. That's 1.2 episodes a day or something like that. And I calculated out 17 days of

0:29:08content that were posted on the Incomparable network in 2015. And then there's, you know,

0:29:15Lift Off and Clockwise and Upgrade over here that I was involved with, but I'm not involved

0:29:18with all of the shows over on "Incomparable." So that part I haven't figured out yet, but

0:29:23it was a very productive year. And one of the reasons I do that end of the year show

0:29:27for "Incomparable" is that it's kind of fun to take a moment and look back and say, "Yeah,

0:29:31we did a bunch of stuff this year." It goes by in a blur. And I think it's good to stop

0:29:36and say, at some point it's good to stop and reflect on what's happened. Otherwise, I think

0:29:46you miss it. You miss that it's very easy to downplay accomplishments and meeting goals

0:29:51because you're moving on to the next thing. And so taking a, you know, when you get to

0:29:54the top of the mountain to take a breath and look around before you proceed down the mountain

0:29:59or up to the next mountain, I think it's a good thing.

0:30:02I had a pretty great year. I ticked off a bunch of bucket list items, which is kind

0:30:09of awesome. Like I gave my first conference talk at release notes, which I was really

0:30:14proud of. I think it went really well. We got a couple of links from Daring Fireball,

0:30:20which is something I've always wanted. And Jon linked a couple of episodes of this show,

0:30:25mainly just me and you complaining, which I do enjoy quite a lot with you, in case the

0:30:33listeners hadn't noticed that already. The business has done really well. We had a great,

0:30:39We had a fantastic year.

0:30:43We grew so fast and we did so much new stuff.

0:30:48We brought on, I mean our roster of hosts,

0:30:52or our hosta as I was gonna call them.

0:30:54- Yeah, hosta of roasts.

0:30:55- Our hosta of roasts right now is superb.

0:30:58I'm so proud of the amount of people that we have

0:31:01and all the people that put their trust in me and Steven

0:31:05to host their content on our lovely home.

0:31:08I couldn't be happier with 2015. I know that I want 2016 to have the same kind of feeling

0:31:15that I'm very happy about, but for the love of all that is holy, I cannot take the amount

0:31:23of work again, because I don't think I would be able to cope with it. We couldn't be twice

0:31:28the size that we are already, it just wouldn't scale. So 2016 for me, in a lot of ways, is

0:31:36about like scaling back and looking at time and trying to analyze it a bit better. I've

0:31:43made some changes to my schedule, like inquisitive has gone away, upgrade is every two weeks.

0:31:49Not upgrade, analog, sorry, it's a terrible way to tell you, analog is every two weeks.

0:31:53No!

0:31:54Yes, analog is fortnightly, it's joining Liftoff as an excellent fortnightly series, upgrade

0:31:59remains weekly. Unless we decide to do the MacPower users thing and just do a fifth episode

0:32:03out of spite or something.

0:32:05But we're not gonna do that.

0:32:06But you know, so I'm that's kind of what my 2016 goal is is about like using my time more effectively because

0:32:132015 was such a great foundation

0:32:15Yeah, I can now build on that going for well. Yeah, and you guys with relay you guys built the business

0:32:21And dealing with growth is a I mean that's a challenge with all businesses

0:32:25And you know you did a lot of this stuff you and Steven with your own

0:32:29You know with your own two hands and at some point you have to either manage the growth

0:32:33growth, you have to pick your spots, or you have to, or you have to, well, manage the

0:32:39growth. You have to figure out a way to grow without just using the power of your own will

0:32:44and Steven's own will because you will run out of that. And so you got to start to use

0:32:49it wisely and, and, and yeah, it's a, it's a challenge, but it's a good kind of challenge.

0:32:55It's a good kind of challenge to have to see how, how well Relay has done. That's been

0:32:58one of my highlights I would say of 2015 too is getting to be a part of that process and

0:33:04talk to you guys and work with you guys about how you're growing Relay. That's been a lot

0:33:08of fun too. So I've got podcast networks to the left of me and to the right of me, but

0:33:13it's been fun. Stuck in the middle with Dan. With podcasts. An interesting thing happened

0:33:21a couple of days ago that is definitely sitting quite beautifully within your wheelhouse and

0:33:27And that is Twitter for Mac got updated.

0:33:30I lost that bet.

0:33:32I should have made a bet with somebody, well I shouldn't have, about somebody could have

0:33:36come to me and said, "I bet you by the end of the year there'll be a major update for

0:33:38Twitter for Mac."

0:33:39And I would have laughed and laughed and laughed and then lost a lot of money.

0:33:43December 30th.

0:33:44Yeah, they slid it out there at the end.

0:33:47It almost felt contractual, like, for some reason.

0:33:51And there were, there was, it's not even a rumor.

0:33:53I've had several people say it's not, it's not a rumor, it's true.

0:33:57was a third-party developer who was contracted to do this app by Twitter.

0:34:01Twitter didn't want to use their own internal developers.

0:34:03And people were complaining about that.

0:34:05I don't know, that sounds actually kind of brilliant to me.

0:34:07I mean, if Twitter had a whole team of iOS developers and couldn't really -- or of Mac

0:34:12developers and couldn't do it, if Twitter's internal development processes are falling

0:34:17apart for a lot of this client stuff, then taking the money they'd spend on internal

0:34:23developers and hiring a developer shop to do it for them, it's not necessarily a bad

0:34:30idea. And apparently that's what they did. There was a rumor that it was BlackPixel,

0:34:34I don't know if that's true, but they do a lot of contract work that they can't talk

0:34:36about because it's for clients, so it wouldn't shock me for clients who want to not talk

0:34:41about who built their app for them. But it definitely seems like it was an outside developer

0:34:45of some sort. And I think it's an interesting move. I wrote a piece on six colors that we

0:34:51can put in the show notes about it. I think it's fascinating because it's got some things

0:34:55that feel very new, and then it also has some, it has bugs and weird interface things, and

0:35:02so my initial thoughts about it were very much like, it's great that there's a new version,

0:35:07it's got a lot of problems, I hope that they're going to do updates from now on. That's my

0:35:11big fear with it, is that they put it out the door, and especially if this is a contract

0:35:16job that they walk away.

0:35:18I have a super weird theory about this app, which is very strange and I can't really reconcile

0:35:28in my brain why it would work this way, but it definitely seems that way.

0:35:32Is that even though Twitter has outsourced this application directly, it's the new Twitter

0:35:37for Mac, that it seems to be using the API that all other third party developers have

0:35:41access to.

0:35:42because it doesn't have any of the first party features like polls, cards, hash flags, this

0:35:47was pointed out by Jeremy from Emojipedia. I saw him tweet it today, like it seems like

0:35:53they have the same limitations.

0:35:54I think that's not entirely accurate because the notifications tab has all of that activity

0:36:01that you see on Twitter that I believe you can't access via the standard API.

0:36:06There's a way to build it though, because Tweetbot did. I mean, and I think that they

0:36:10They have some server infrastructure in place now to manage all of that, but...

0:36:14But I think it's not...

0:36:15I don't know.

0:36:17My impression is that there's more detail in the notifications tab than is available

0:36:21to a standard third-party app.

0:36:24But yeah, it's possible.

0:36:25Well, let's just call out the irony of the fact that Twitter killed third-party apps

0:36:30or tried to kill them slowly over time by all of their restrictions, and then they went

0:36:36to a third-party developer to develop their app.

0:36:38How about that?

0:36:39is, there is a kind of a precedent being set now in which it looks like they are attempting

0:36:44to undo some of that.

0:36:46Also, one of the reports that we saw from people who say that they know, people who

0:36:49used to work at Twitter, that I saw kind of stream by on Twitter, is that this was a back

0:36:54and forth inside Twitter. Like, let's not do a Mac app. You know, let's not update it

0:36:58anymore. No, let's do it. No, let's not do it. No, let's do it. There was a lot of back

0:37:02and forth about this. And what I wrote on Macworld, and I don't know whether they saw

0:37:08and I don't know whether that was just one little added poke at them along with all the

0:37:13other ones they were feeling or not. As a writer, I kind of assume that although people

0:37:17can see my stuff, it very rarely has an impact on decision-making.

0:37:21Yeah, I mean, you don't want to start thinking that way because then you end up with an ego

0:37:25that's too big to fit for the front door.

0:37:27Exactly right. So I don't know, but I will say, so with no linkage intended here at all,

0:37:33What I wrote was that Twitter either needs to embrace their job as a steward of their

0:37:38platform on various operating systems, or it needs to get the hell out of the way and

0:37:43let third parties—because, you know, there are third parties who will be happy to make

0:37:48great Mac apps, and some already exist, for Twitter.

0:37:52I know you don't like it, but the tweetbot for the Mac is fantastic.

0:37:55It's very impressive.

0:37:56And you know what?

0:37:57I love Twitterific on iOS, and the reason there isn't a great version of Twitterific

0:38:01on the Mac, and it's just the old version that's been around forever, is because of

0:38:05what Twitter did to the developers. That Icon Factory can't bother to invest in it because

0:38:13it's not worth it to them because of what's happened. So, you know, again, pick one. Either

0:38:18make a world-class, amazingly good Mac app, or just let the developers make good Mac apps,

0:38:24because they already are. Just get out of the way, let them make some money, let them

0:38:27follow your guidelines. And so I don't think that this release of Twitter for Mac 4.0 really

0:38:34tells us anything. It's a mystery. Like, is this a commitment or is this like a last gasp?

0:38:40Are there going to be bug fix updates ongoing? Because this is a good start. They have some

0:38:45design issues. I mean, I wrote about it in that piece that we linked to that I mentioned

0:38:50earlier. It's really spacey. It's got lots of white space. And given that two-thirds

0:38:57of the Macs that are out there are laptops, that seems like a mistake to just take up

0:39:01huge amounts of space. The tweets are huge, the space between the little icons and the

0:39:06toolbar is huge. There's some fundamental bugs like you can set notifications about

0:39:13whether you want to see it when there are new tweets in your timeline or just replies

0:39:16or something like that, but they aren't honored by the accounts in the sidebar. You know,

0:39:20there's a bunch of weird things that, again, if this is the beginning of ongoing development

0:39:25of Twitter for Mac is fine. But I'm not, we'll have to see. I'm not sure given the stories here

0:39:33that that's true because if it's an outsourced thing, is Twitter paying that company to continue

0:39:39developing it? Is that part of the story? The fact that it got kind of slid out at the end of the

0:39:43year makes me a little concerned that perhaps it is a contractual thing, like it needed to ship

0:39:50in 2015 for contract reasons or for payment reasons, tax reasons, I don't even know. Maybe

0:39:57it's a coincidence, but I'm not convinced that this is a commitment to the Mac by Twitter,

0:40:02and it gets us back to what we've been talking about throughout 2015, which is what's the

0:40:07commitment level here, because Twitter, for me, I have to use an app to use Twitter, and

0:40:13I'm at my Mac a lot. And so I'm not going to just keep it in a web page. It's not going

0:40:19to happen. That's why I don't use Facebook, is that I'm not going to keep loading Facebook

0:40:24in a webpage, so I go to it occasionally. I don't know. I don't know. It's weird. It's

0:40:29a weird story. It continues to be weird, what Twitter is. So I'd like a clear signal from

0:40:36Twitter and maybe this is it, but we won't really know until we see whether this thing

0:40:40sits for a year or whether it gets updates every month or two. It doesn't have all those

0:40:48things though. It does have, I mean, let's, it doesn't have polls and cards and things

0:40:52like that, but it does have like native, native tweet, quoting and support for animations

0:41:00and videos, things that are not new features on Twitter, but that the Twitter for Mac app

0:41:05didn't support. So it does actually support a whole bunch of Twitter features that were

0:41:10not previously supported. But then there are all these other features that it doesn't support

0:41:14and Jeremy's right. It's the stuff that basically just renders in web views and is not in any

0:41:24of the apps.

0:41:25>> So I have like, when I look at this, I see that this is a sign of Twitter deciding

0:41:32that they are going to do something because you're not going to, well, I mean, who knows,

0:41:37but you'd like to think they're not going to pay the amount of money, which is probably

0:41:40a large amount of money to have this thing built if it just is this is all it is and

0:41:45there probably is an element of updating that is going to be required and the reason that

0:41:50I look at this and can see that it came out in the way that it did is this project's been

0:41:54in the works for an amount of time and there was a contractual agreement to have it something

0:41:58out before the end of the year and that's why it's the way it is because it is in some

0:42:04ways regressing from the previous app like in bugs and stuff like that yeah and a lot

0:42:09of them are like, just having a look at some of the stuff. Like I've included a link in

0:42:14the show notes to Federico's piece on Mac stories and he includes some tweets and vines

0:42:17from people who were finding bugs. And they're just bugs you'd find using the app. So I mean,

0:42:23I look at this and I'm like, no, this is probably the start of ongoing development of the Mac

0:42:27app, but there needed to be something before the end of the year. Because December 30th

0:42:32is a really weird time to release something.

0:42:35It feels like a beta to me. I mean, it just, it feels like a beta. There's a lot of weird

0:42:39things about it, that it feels like a beta, and that's not bad for it to be a beta, but

0:42:45it's not played as a beta. It'll auto-update. If you've got auto-update Mac App Store stuff

0:42:51turned on, your old Twitter app will just disappear and be replaced by this new thing

0:42:55that does not work at all like the old thing. And our friend Will Run For Fun in the chatroom

0:43:01says, you know, "Why even have an app? They don't make a Windows app. I just use the web

0:43:05or tweetbot. Well, like I said, I think using the web is not a good enough thing for a lot

0:43:09of people on the desktop because I think personally, I think using the web for Twitter sucks and

0:43:15I would like it in an app. But that's my larger point here is I'm okay with Twitter saying,

0:43:22you know what? We're not going to do apps on PCs, on Mac and Windows. We're not going

0:43:28to bother. But if they do that, I would like them to also say, it's a third party opportunity.

0:43:34We have a new developer relation. They can sell their apps. Here's what they have to

0:43:38do. The token limits are lifted. Go to town. We're happy to have third parties who want

0:43:46to be our partners on platforms that we're not supporting, but we're going to focus on

0:43:49iOS and Android. I'd be fine with that, but that's not what we have. We have a mystery

0:43:55about what will be the new direction of Twitter and what does this app mean? Is it a commitment

0:44:01to supporting more on the Mac or is it sort of a last gasp? We don't know.

0:44:08Yeah, I don't know. I would like to see them at least do what you said. Like just

0:44:14say like you got the web or this third parties. Like that just makes more sense

0:44:18to me like why are Twitter bothering? Why are they bothering to make desktop apps?

0:44:23I don't actually don't understand what the point of this app is. So just use

0:44:27the web, right? And if you don't want to use the web go to a third party and they

0:44:30should be embracing that. I'm okay with that. I actually think, yes, if I was managing at

0:44:36Twitter that's probably what I would suggest. I would say, you know what, mobile is super

0:44:41important and growing. Traditional computers, not so much. And we're on the web there. Our

0:44:48web client will always be, you know, our web page will always be fine. And there are developers

0:44:54who are dying to develop for those platforms, for Mac and Windows and whatever, Linux too.

0:44:59anything you can find over there, just let them.

0:45:03Let's let them.

0:45:04Let's revise our developer guidelines,

0:45:07set some rules in place, let them go to town.

0:45:09It'll be good for us, it'll be good for the users

0:45:11on those platforms and we'll be done.

0:45:12And if we wanna keep a tight grip on,

0:45:15or a tighter grip on mobile,

0:45:16because it's so important to us going forward, fine.

0:45:21Make that call.

0:45:22But right now it's just a mystery.

0:45:24And somebody actually asked in the chat room,

0:45:26stoic squirrel, excellent username by the way, are the token limits still in place?

0:45:31And I think my answer is as far as we know, Twitter has made no announcement saying we

0:45:35take it all back, developers do whatever you want or that I haven't seen anything about

0:45:41that. It wouldn't surprise me if Twitter has sent signals to some iOS and Mac app developers

0:45:51that the rules are flexible. It wouldn't surprise me, I don't know that, I haven't talked to

0:45:54any of them about it.

0:45:55They've been blogging recently and basically what they've said is that "we hear you" about

0:46:06that. That's what they said, like "we understand about the token limits, we get that, we know

0:46:12it's a problem, we hear you." So they're not ignoring it.

0:46:17It implies they're working on something but haven't made an announcement about it yet.

0:46:22And that's fine. I suspected for a while now that there's some relationships at play here,

0:46:30like Twitterific as an innovator and the inventor of the bluebird to represent Twitter and the

0:46:37inventor of the word tweet. I get the impression that they have some special relationship with

0:46:42Twitter right down to the fact that they get to use the word Twitter in their app name

0:46:45and that hasn't gone away. But I don't know, you know, that may be a very limited thing.

0:46:52Who knows? I mean, how can you have a relationship with a company that keeps having all of these

0:46:56changes in direction and in management too?

0:46:59So…

0:47:00David Pembroke Your relationship is purely a contract, which

0:47:02was a legal thing that you both agreed to, and that's that. That's what that relationship

0:47:05was like.

0:47:06Tim Cynova Probably so. So we'll see. We'll see. We'll

0:47:09how it goes. Anyway, I'm using it. I don't love it. I might use Tweetbot instead, although

0:47:16I have issues with Tweetbot too, so we'll see. We'll see. I'm using it to get used to

0:47:21it and see. I want to use it enough that a lot of the newness of it sort of fades away

0:47:25and then I can decide whether I like it or not. But I do have Tweetbot, and it's an option.

0:47:32They are, whilst they have shown in the past that they can be slow in certain areas, tapbots

0:47:39are committed to the app and have shown that in a way that Twitter currently haven't.

0:47:45No.

0:47:46And maybe they need a bit more time and it will be absolutely great.

0:47:50But right now I think it's too early to say, "Oh, this is perfect.

0:47:53This is what I want."

0:47:54Oh, and I should say people also bring up TweetDeck, which is also done by Twitter.

0:47:59TweetDeck is good for certain people who have very specific needs.

0:48:05You got that big Twitter dashboard that you're looking at because you're doing lots of stuff.

0:48:09But as a kind of day, the way I use Twitter, which is a little thing on the side of my

0:48:14screen that I can scroll through and then go back to what I'm working on, TweetDeck

0:48:19doesn't work for me. And also I'm offended by the fact that it's got that multi-column

0:48:22interface but because it's essentially a web page in disguise. I've said this before, I'll

0:48:27it again, you know, it doesn't snap to the columns. So, you know, you can't, if you set

0:48:34it to be like the width of one column, the scrolling, like it doesn't scroll to the next

0:48:39column, it doesn't set it to two columns. It sort of just is this continuum of various

0:48:45columns that you can scroll across. I don't know. It's not a good Mac app. It's kind of

0:48:50a fake Mac app and it's good for people who want to do what it provides, but I don't think

0:48:55it's a, I don't think it's a good client. There's somebody, I think one of the writers

0:48:59from The Verge said they should just kill the Twitter app and focus on, on, on the,

0:49:07what were we just talking about? I've lost the name. There's so many tweets and twits

0:49:10and bots now.

0:49:11>> TweetDeck?

0:49:12>> TweetDeck, decks. Focus on TweetDeck. I'm like, no, TweetDeck is like a pro social media

0:49:18maven kind of tool. It is not a, it is not a regular person app.

0:49:24I do agree with that though. I do think they should just kill the Mac app, work on TweetDeck

0:49:28and give the like the reins of the standard Mac app over to third parties.

0:49:32That would be fine with me. Because TweetDeck could be a lot more than

0:49:35it is. Like Twitter could own the market of the professional tools. There are a couple

0:49:40of other tools, I think Radian6 is one that is like a one of these social media management

0:49:49Twitter should build that, right, and sell that to people, like rather than what Hootsuite

0:49:55does and companies like that. Twitter should make that and that's what TweetDeck should

0:49:58be. And so I think they should put their efforts into that and just let Tweetbot and IconFactory

0:50:05make the Mac app.

0:50:06Yeah. Yeah. And there are some others out there I know that people like that are other

0:50:11Twitter clients that are third parties. It's fine. I think that's what we all want and

0:50:18I don't know whether that's the best thing for Twitter or not, but it would seem to me,

0:50:22other than the fact that they have to create new guidelines and they have to maintain an

0:50:25API and a relationship with third parties, although they're already sort of doing that,

0:50:30they would have to put some effort perhaps into opening new API stuff for their new features

0:50:35when they roll out. But that seems like it should be job one, right? Here's a new feature

0:50:40and the API that goes with it. Maybe they don't do it for experimental features like

0:50:46polls which I think is still an experiment and doesn't work very well and might be a

0:50:50bad idea. I don't know. We'll see what they do but that would be, I think that would be

0:50:56the best thing for them to do is on platforms where they don't care, just let the people

0:51:00who care work on it and it benefits Twitter in the end because people are using their

0:51:03service.

0:51:04Just make everybody see your ads man, everyone's happy.

0:51:07Yep.

0:51:08Well maybe not everybody's happy but I think you get my point. CES is this week.

0:51:13Yep.

0:51:14We're kind of approaching day one.

0:51:16You going to CES, Myke?

0:51:18Not this time.

0:51:20I'm not either.

0:51:22I think we spoke about this last year.

0:51:24You've been to CES a few times.

0:51:26I've put a link to a post from The Verge where they're talking about the trends that should be expected this time around.

0:51:34Cars are probably going to be the biggest one.

0:51:36And there's something that I'm very interested in.

0:51:40There are big rumors that in Ford's press conference, which is some point over the next

0:51:45couple of days, they're going to be announcing a partnership with Google to build autonomous

0:51:50cars.

0:51:51This is heavily rumored and would be very, very interesting if that is coming to pass.

0:51:56It would mean Google is first.

0:51:58There was a story today that GM has invested a gajillion dollars into Lyft to help them

0:52:04build autonomous cars.

0:52:06It's definitely the thing.

0:52:072016 it's gonna be the year of the autonomous car. They're not gonna be out

0:52:11but there's gonna be a lot of news about them. I think that's that's gonna be the

0:52:14biggest trend this year. And so yeah just CES is coming. I've never been right I

0:52:20know you have. I would like to do it one day just to see it. I just want to see

0:52:26what CES looks like. It's a really big trade show and a big parking lot and

0:52:33and packed with people and lots of electronics and you know it yeah that's what it is if you

0:52:40like crowds and lots of weird crappy stuff in aisle by aisle after aisle and then other places

0:52:49where it's just wall-to-wall TVs CES is the place for you because it's got all that stuff

0:52:55I hate it but you know I can tell I hate it I mean it's just a spectacle that I've always

0:52:59It is a spectacle.

0:53:00…has seen from afar and have therefore been kind of just a little bit interested in what

0:53:05it is, you know?

0:53:06I'm just like curious to see what CES actually looks and feels like.

0:53:12But not needing…

0:53:13I mean, I think it would be different going and not being in the situation of being forced

0:53:17to go to cover it.

0:53:18Like, I would be going out of choice.

0:53:19Right.

0:53:20I think it might be a little bit easier for me if I did decide to do it.

0:53:23I am considering it for next year.

0:53:25Just to see.

0:53:26So what I would say is though that if you go you you're gonna have to cover it right if you go you're going to

0:53:31Have to bring a microphone or a little podcast setup and do some interviews and have it be live from CES on relay

0:53:38I think you would need to do it that way. Yeah, but so you know, but it's it's yeah, it's it's fine

0:53:44It's it's a it's news that has to be covered and that's why we always covered it. I find it very low

0:53:49Low content for the effort, but if you target it if you've got your meetings with you with vendors

0:53:56meetings with vendors who are announcing products is valuable at CES. Actually, I will say,

0:54:02look at me, I'm saying something positive about CES. If you line all that up, because

0:54:06there are major announcements that are made there. And so if you've got that stuff, that's

0:54:09good stuff. The problem is if you end up wandering the show floor looking for things, because

0:54:14there's very little, there's a lot of junk, and then there's diamonds in the rough, but

0:54:19the return on your investment for that, for the grind, and I hate wandering in crowds,

0:54:25especially like, um, like trade show crowds. Cause they don't,

0:54:29people are stopping everywhere and,

0:54:30and they stop right in front of you and you're going to barrel into them and

0:54:34people don't behave like normal human beings when they're at a trade show. Um,

0:54:39that's, that's just, it's awful. It's a waste of time to do that. But there,

0:54:42there was a lot of good news that comes out of CES and uh, and so that's,

0:54:47that's for me, that's the difference is I actually think if you go there for the

0:54:50spectacle, you will be much more let down than if you go there, uh,

0:54:54with a lot of meetings and know what you're covering

0:54:59if you're covering the event.

0:55:01Anyway, well, the best way to appreciate CES is from afar

0:55:06because you get to see the announcements

0:55:09that are interesting.

0:55:10It's nice for large portions

0:55:12of the consumer electronics industry

0:55:13to make all their press releases drop in a few days

0:55:16because there's a big load of news and that's nice.

0:55:20Very little phone stuff gets announced there though

0:55:22because that all gets announced at Mobile World Congress

0:55:24in Barcelona instead in a month and a half

0:55:28or something like that.

0:55:29So, but it's good to watch it from afar.

0:55:32And I've already seen, there was some news today

0:55:34about TiVo doing an Apple Watch app

0:55:38that they appear to be announcing.

0:55:40And that you speaking of Ford,

0:55:42it sounds like a Ford Sync 3 system

0:55:44that's their in-car entertainment system

0:55:46is gonna support Android Auto and CarPlay.

0:55:49So all the Ford cars with that entertainment system

0:55:54next year at some point will support

0:55:58both Android Auto and CarPlay, which is kind of cool.

0:56:00So there's stuff like that that will happen

0:56:02over the course of this week.

0:56:03There'll be some really great news

0:56:05mixed in with all the crazy stuff.

0:56:07- Yeah, there is some cool stuff that comes out of CES,

0:56:11right, that's just one of the things

0:56:13that will happen this week.

0:56:14You're right, like a lot of the other types of things now,

0:56:18like Mobile World Congress and things that,

0:56:19and shows like that, are splintering it a bit,

0:56:23which is making things different.

0:56:26- And individual announcements,

0:56:27I think I mentioned this last year when we talked about it,

0:56:29is a lot of the major vendors realized

0:56:31that they could do what Apple does,

0:56:33which is call an event and get people to come and cover it.

0:56:37- Own your own stage and your own environment

0:56:39and your own timeline. - And you're the only news

0:56:40of the day, you're the only news that day,

0:56:42where CES, it's so easy to get lost in CES.

0:56:45So if you're Microsoft or Amazon or Google,

0:56:49then you just don't, or Samsung even,

0:56:53you know, you just don't do it.

0:56:55You wait. - Yeah, that was the big news

0:56:56a few years ago, wasn't it,

0:56:57that Microsoft pulled out,

0:57:02'cause they always used to open CES, didn't they?

0:57:04- Yeah, yeah, for a long time,

0:57:05it was really the Bill Gates show at CES.

0:57:07That's what it was, was it was a Wintel kind of event.

0:57:11It was what are Microsoft and Intel doing?

0:57:14and it was a big PC show.

0:57:16And it's not that much anymore either.

0:57:19There are PC guys are there too,

0:57:20but a lot of TVs, some cars.

0:57:23I mean, it's really like eight trade shows in one.

0:57:25There's so many different things there.

0:57:27And a lot of it is not for the press or general consumer,

0:57:30it's for distributors to pick up products

0:57:33and distribute them in various markets.

0:57:35And so that stuff is less interesting to everyone else too.

0:57:39But yeah, if you're Microsoft, you just hold an event now

0:57:43and you don't need to bother with CES. There will be some keynotes and things at CES where

0:57:48they're using the platform to get things out, but you know, that's the beauty of it. If

0:57:52you're Microsoft or Google and you've got a big thing to do, you've got your own shows

0:57:55to do it, or you've got your own, you can call an event to do it.

0:57:58- Do you reckon Apple are going to announce anything this week? They always do something

0:58:02in the past, they always have done something during CES week just to prove a point, I think.

0:58:08It's possible. It's possible. I don't know. We would find out Tuesday, probably. That's

0:58:14usually when they do those press release announcements. I don't know. I don't know. They may be moving

0:58:20away from that game, too. They did a lot last quarter, so maybe we're in a little quiet

0:58:24period for Apple here.

0:58:25That has got to be something. It's a fun thing to do, right? People are announcing stuff.

0:58:30You announce one piddly little thing, and it takes all the news away for an afternoon.

0:58:34It's true.

0:58:35I mean that is such fun.

0:58:37I would be surprised if they stopped doing it but if they haven't got anything to announce

0:58:42then they can't announce anything.

0:58:43But we'll see.

0:58:45Alright, are you ready for some Ask Upgrade?

0:58:48I am.

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1:00:49beautiful. James wrote in, he loved our discussion about the iPad Pro. We did mention, I want

1:01:00to say this a little bit earlier on, I don't want to talk about it yet because I think

1:01:04we've killed people with iPad Pro talk, but I really want to talk about at some point

1:01:09just how big a difference this device is making to the way that I work.

1:01:15We'll do a check in, I think giving it some time, not only giving people a little break

1:01:18from it but giving some time for both of us to spend with it is going to be helpful.

1:01:22I just want to say this, I want to make this bold claim, the iPad Pro is the best thing

1:01:26Apple did in 2015.

1:01:28Didn't we give it an upgrade-y?

1:01:29No. We didn't have that category. I mean, we gave it a category for our favorite thing,

1:01:37right?

1:01:38Yeah.

1:01:39But I just think flat out, the iPad Pro is the best thing that they did and it's very

1:01:43surprising.

1:01:44James said, "He feels that something that we missed on iOS is that you can't tag

1:01:49photos with faces and keywords and stuff like that, and that is making it harder

1:01:54for him to use photos on iOS as compared to the Mac where he gets access to all

1:01:58of these features. And as I have called you many times, you are the Photos app

1:02:02man. What is your opinion about this?" Well, he's right. It's a limitation of

1:02:08photos for iOS that's not there in the Mac. There are a few things going on

1:02:11here. The keywords thing, I think that's a good point. There are UI questions about how

1:02:15you keyword batches of photos or individual photos and are you doing that on your phone,

1:02:21but are you doing that on an iPad? Maybe you are. Having features missing from photos on

1:02:28iOS is an issue if they're on photos from Mac. The faces thing is interesting and it

1:02:35goes back to the way that Apple is handling face data. Apple isn't syncing face data.

1:02:41They say that's a consequence of their commitment to privacy issues, that they don't want sort

1:02:45of facial recognition information being available publicly.

1:02:49It stays on your Mac, and all that really gets tagged when you do iCloud Photo Library

1:02:55is who are the faces in the individual photos, but the facial recognition engine isn't in

1:03:03the cloud, it's on the Mac.

1:03:05So the question is, one, could they put that on the iPad or on iOS in general?

1:03:10probably could, but you go back to UI issues and are people going to be tagging faces on

1:03:17iOS or not? And then there's that question of syncing. I think Apple feels like they

1:03:24benefit from the most common use case being that you've got a Mac and iOS devices and

1:03:28there's the one Mac and that's where the facial recognition database lives, and it gets much

1:03:32more complicated when you have other devices that are also trying to run the facial recognition

1:03:36database. So I think it's a complicated problem and I'm not quite sure what the

1:03:41solution is, whether it's moving it to the cloud or coming up with some other

1:03:47way for these devices to interact with the facial data. But it's true, over time

1:03:53you would like those features on the Mac to also be on iOS, and they aren't.

1:04:01I don't—I still have a Mac, so it doesn't bother me too much, and I don't use those

1:04:08features very often. But if you were trying to go iPad-only, and I think that that's not

1:04:13unreasonable, especially if the thing that is important to you is photos, that it might be an

1:04:18issue. That's it. I mean, it's a naughty problem, and I don't know whether they're going to solve it

1:04:22this year or not, because Apple knows how often people use faces and keywords in photos,

1:04:29photos, and they may figure that that's a power user feature that they're comfortable

1:04:33not ever putting on iOS. I don't know. When you look at the competition, Google gets to

1:04:37do a lot of really great things by having brains in the cloud working on this stuff,

1:04:41right? So, you know, that's my gut feeling is that maybe somebody at Apple should make

1:04:46the argument that moving some of the face recognition stuff up into iCloud might be

1:04:51valuable, but that would only be for people who are using iCloud Photo Library. So, I

1:04:56I don't know.

1:04:57I don't know.

1:04:58It's a hard one.

1:04:59I think that's why it's not there,

1:05:00is that this is a difficult problem

1:05:01because of where faces started, which was on the Mac.

1:05:04- Listen to Nick Roten.

1:05:07Is the iPad Pro comfortable to use all day?

1:05:09Do you use it flat or propped up on a stand?

1:05:11Do you ever saw an act from looking down?

1:05:12So using the iPad Pro more, more than my iMac now,

1:05:17is basically meaning that I work

1:05:22from comfortable locations now.

1:05:24I work from the sofa a lot.

1:05:26I work from comfortable chairs, I work in bed, I just have the thing on my lap with

1:05:30the smart keyboard.

1:05:31That tends to be how I work now.

1:05:35Yeah, I've been, yeah, so I'll use it on the couch and when I'm having my first cup of

1:05:47tea in the morning in bed, and then the other time that I'll use it, I'll sometimes use

1:05:51it sitting at my dining room table with a stand, and sometimes I'll use it standing

1:05:55with the iPad on the bar in the kitchen, which is a nice sort of standing configuration.

1:06:04And that's mostly where I'm using it now. I have a sit-stand desk here that I could

1:06:07put it on, but I tend not to use—I've got the computer out here. If I want to work out

1:06:12in the garage, I will use the computer. But if I go in the house, what I do is I use the

1:06:16iPad and not bring in a laptop and it's a nice change of scenery and so that's, you

1:06:22know, that works for me. If I was, I think that that's the beauty of the iPad Pro is

1:06:28I'm not using it in one location all day. I'm moving around with it. I'll be at the

1:06:32desk or I'll be at the table, then I'll be up at the bar, then I'll be on the couch,

1:06:36then I'll go back to the table, I'll kind of move around and I think that's one of the

1:06:41things that appeals about it.

1:06:43Definitely. Listen to Luke, "Might DVR capabilities be the reason for Apple's poorly explained

1:06:49fourth-gen TV storage options?"

1:06:52I don't think so because first off I think that Apple doesn't want to make a DVR.

1:06:57Yeah I think even when they do whatever it is that they do it will be like Netflix. It

1:07:02won't be like TiVo.

1:07:04It's all going to be streaming and if you want to do, maybe there'll be a buffer, a

1:07:09stream buffer if you've got a live TV service there'll be a stream buffer or maybe it's

1:07:13a maybe the buffer lives on the server right and you you can back through that

1:07:18that buffer that exists on the server for the live channel you're watching but

1:07:22I expected to be very much like the BBC I player you can watch live and then

1:07:27everything else just goes into a catch-up catalog exactly and and so

1:07:31Apple's not gonna build something with a cable card and there's something like

1:07:35that for the US cable market it's not gonna happen and HD video is is enormous

1:07:40So other than caches, the Apple TV doesn't have the capacity to store

1:07:46anything meaningful. My TiVo has like a 4 terabyte hard drive in it.

1:07:50It's, yeah, the Apple TV is not going to be able to handle it, and it's not built to.

1:07:57It's built for a world where everything is available streaming, and you stream your video when you want to watch it.

1:08:04Yep. I think that's what's gonna happen. Yep.

1:08:08Okay, then next up we have from Robert, "Did you mention a favorite Apple Watch charging stand?"

1:08:14I don't use one, and I know that you do, so I thought we should probably mention it.

1:08:18Uh, yeah, and I haven't, um, I haven't checked out a bunch of stands, so I don't have a favorite.

1:08:25I bought the nightstand from Elevation Doc, you know, Elevation Lab, and I use it, and it's fine.

1:08:32There are probably other ones that are better. What I like about it is it's got the orientation

1:08:38properly to use it as a in-night stand mode, where it becomes your alarm clock, and that's

1:08:46what I use now as my alarm clock, as my Apple Watch. It's another benefit of being an Apple

1:08:49Watch user. And so that's what I use. There may be other ones. What you want is a stand

1:08:54that lets you charge it and hold it sideways, although you can also just lay it on the table,

1:09:02And that works too. I kind of like not doing that and having it on the little stand instead.

1:09:07But you know, is it essential? No, I don't think it is essential, but it's fine. It keeps

1:09:13my little charger in place and that's what I like about it. And you know, the magnet,

1:09:18I wish the magnet was stronger on the Apple Watch charger because it wiggles a little

1:09:23bit, but that's what I'm using and it's fine.

1:09:27Next up we have a question from Ben and Ben wanted to know at what speed do you both listen

1:09:34to your podcasts? Ben recently went down to 1x and everyone sounds so different than at

1:09:401.8 which I believe he's saying he listened to previously.

1:09:44- Hi Ben.

1:09:48- How are you doing? - Thanks for your question.

1:09:53I listen one tick up, usually in Overcast.

1:10:01Maybe one or two ticks up.

1:10:03That's one of the reasons I love Overcast

1:10:04is it's the first app that I have,

1:10:07podcast app that I've listened to

1:10:09where the faster speeds don't sound,

1:10:11don't have like weird artifacts

1:10:14that on other, the standard like audio method in order to speed up audio, every,

1:10:19I feel like you get these like tick, tick, tick, tick, tick things that weird

1:10:22artifacts that happen and, uh, it's all smooth and overcast.

1:10:25So a lot of podcasts I'll listen to one tick up, maybe two.

1:10:28Um, and then there are some podcasts where I, where I refuse to do that.

1:10:32Um, because like the flophouse, because they already talk so fast and I want to

1:10:37savor every minute of that podcast.

1:10:39Cause it's one of my favorites.

1:10:40Some others though, I'll speed it up a little bit.

1:10:43The ATP I listened to sped up and Lauren was listening to one while I was getting ready

1:10:50in the morning. I had it on a speaker and she was like, "Is this sped up or did they

1:10:54really talk that fast?" And I said, "No, it's sped up." But I hear this from people. My

1:11:00policy has always been no speed is supported other than 1x. We edit all of our podcasts

1:11:06and listen to them at 1x. That's how they're meant to be listened to. If you want to listen

1:11:10at other speeds, it's unsupported, it may be unsafe, it may be a danger to you and your

1:11:14family. Be careful out there. What about you, Myke?

1:11:18I'm 1x only with Smart Speed. I just don't... I mean, sometimes even with Smart Speed, I

1:11:27hear the change. Sometimes it will pick somebody up and make them talk quite quickly for whatever

1:11:32reason. And I hear it and I'm like, "Hmm, wish it didn't do that." But Smart Speed's

1:11:38really good at doing exactly what I want which is just take out the silences and speed things

1:11:43up very very slightly and that works for me because I like to listen at 1x and I only

1:11:48listen to smart speed because I can listen to basically 1x and still save some time.

1:11:54I don't really like the idea of speeding up shows it just doesn't, I've tried it and

1:11:59it just doesn't fit with me. I just don't like it, I like to hear it as it was intended

1:12:05to be you know and I don't think silences are an issue really unless you're listening

1:12:11to like an NPR show. Like I think I turn smart speed off when I listen to cereal or something

1:12:16because it's like you know dramatic pauses that avoid you don't get.

1:12:20Right.

1:12:21Listen to Paul there, what iOS or OS X app do you use to make the beautiful links in

1:12:26the relay FM show notes? We don't use an app, it is our CMS that does that.

1:12:32- Yeah, there's a cool bookmarklet in the CMS

1:12:36that whatever the latest episode is that's in the CMS,

1:12:40you can go to a page and click the bookmarklet

1:12:43and it sucks in the title and the URL

1:12:46and that helps a lot when we're doing those.

1:12:49I have that set up for when I'm doing Clockwise.

1:12:52As people mention things, I'm navigating to the pages

1:12:54and clicking the button and it gets added to the show notes,

1:12:57which is very nice.

1:12:58- That is exactly how I've been doing the show notes

1:13:00for this episode.

1:13:01- Exactly.

1:13:02great but it's just our CMS. If you've ever been curious now you know it's just

1:13:06our system that does it we're very proud of it we love show notes in case you

1:13:10hadn't guessed and yeah you say like you know you'll get last week's upgrade and

1:13:16last week's connected had mammoth show notes you know I was working on upgrade

1:13:20for like five hours last week with the chapters and then okay chapters could

1:13:26we just address chapters quickly I need to address chapters quickly because you

1:13:31People don't ask.

1:13:32Only a couple, a small handful of people ask, and they're gonna ask because I did it like

1:13:35on two different shows last week.

1:13:37My personal policy on chapters is I do them in shows where I think it makes sense, because

1:13:44it enhances a topic in some way.

1:13:46So like the upgrade is it made sense to me because there were categories.

1:13:50When we did the year-end review episode of Connected, I do it because every month it

1:13:54kind of breaks it down that way.

1:13:56I'm personally unsold on doing chapters just for every topic in a random episode of Upgrade.

1:14:05I could be changed in the future, but I doubt that, because it's a lot more work for me

1:14:10with the way that I edit, because I don't do a full listen-through edit of this show.

1:14:16I make notes as we record and go back in and fix things afterwards.

1:14:20We have a wide-ranging discussion that kind of goes through topics sometimes, and it would

1:14:25be very difficult to get all of the stops. I feel like, you know, we could totally do,

1:14:32you know, and it's up to you because it does take extra time. People don't understand that

1:14:35there are technical issues and how you tag and I used to fix things with incomparable

1:14:40before I started doing more bookmarks. If I found a mistake in the episode, I could

1:14:45actually just fix it in an audio editor and then re-encode it as MP3. But the workflow

1:14:49that we use for chapters, you kind of can't do that. You have to re-export it from logic

1:14:53again. It takes time, it's complicated. You know, we do have a follow-up sponsor topic,

1:15:00sponsor ask upgrade kind of structure that could have some basic bookmarks in it, but I see what

1:15:07you're saying too, which is it's for special occasions when there's extra structure that

1:15:13seems fitting for bookmarks, and super fine-grain kind of bookmark detail is something that is

1:15:19not necessarily worth the extra work and workflow and just the act of going to any bookmarks is

1:15:28itself take there's a hit in terms of the work that happens there so i don't know i i do them

1:15:35sometimes for incomparable all the time for clockwise because clockwise is very structured

1:15:40yeah it varies yeah i just i i need extra convincing as to why i should do that like it

1:15:48I just don't see it really elevating.

1:15:51- So email Myke.

1:15:52- Yeah, email me with your reasons.

1:15:55Listen to Martin, what's the likelihood

1:15:56in your professional opinion of the Apple Pencil support

1:15:59coming to the iPad Air 3?

1:16:01Very likely, I would say.

1:16:03- Yeah, I would say so.

1:16:05Yeah, I would say like 80%, 90%, something like that,

1:16:08that they'll do it with Apple Pencil support

1:16:10and possibly smart connector too,

1:16:14but certainly Apple Pencil support,

1:16:15it just makes a lot of sense

1:16:16that eventually the iPad Air will get it,

1:16:18why not the next version?

1:16:19It makes that, it makes the iPad Air better,

1:16:22it makes the pencil better, why not?

1:16:24- And listener Gary, are English muffins

1:16:29just muffins in England?

1:16:32- I wanna know the answer to this.

1:16:33So I'm happy that listener Gary asked.

1:16:36- I'm not 100% sure what I would call that,

1:16:39what Gary is showing me because--

1:16:42- They come kind of together and then you split them apart

1:16:45they come pre-split and they've got little, as they say, the little nooks and crannies

1:16:50in them, the little kind of bubbles, and then you toast them and put things on them. I had

1:16:55these for breakfast this morning, in fact, with peanut butter and jelly on them.

1:16:58>> It just looks like a roll to me. >> Well, next time you're here, we're going

1:17:03to have to give you an English muffin and have you name it.

1:17:06>> Because what we call muffins is what you call muffins.

1:17:09>> Okay. >> Which is muffins, like chocolate chip muffins,

1:17:13These are little, these are little, they're similar to like the, like, uh, they also sell

1:17:19Australian toaster biscuits, which are very much like English muffins, but they're different.

1:17:25So you don't, you don't even know what these are.

1:17:27I can't get, give you a name for them.

1:17:30But they're not muffins.

1:17:31No, they're not muffins.

1:17:32To answer listener Gary.

1:17:33Yeah, they're not muffins.

1:17:34We don't call them muffins, I don't think.

1:17:37I'm like Googling now and I can't, I cannot give you an answer as to what these things

1:17:42are. Like I wouldn't even know what to call them. I think I would probably just call them

1:17:47English muffins. Maybe. I don't know. I have no idea. I'm completely unhelpful. I don't

1:17:53know what that thing is.

1:17:55I don't know. Muffins. According to Wikipedia, they're sold by the name Muffins in all British

1:18:00supermarkets. All British supermarkets. Wow, that's pretty definitive, Wikipedia.

1:18:06I don't think so, Wikipedia. And yeah, maybe they are called muffins, but that's not what

1:18:10people call muffins right like they may be called muffins like you could call anything

1:18:14a muffin but it doesn't but when when you say to somebody do you have muffins they don't

1:18:19give you these they give you chocolate chip muffins right like you know it's like I could

1:18:23call my iPhone a muffin if I wanted to all right but it doesn't you know it doesn't mean

1:18:30that that's what everybody knows as muffins I hate it stuff like this on Wikipedia this

1:18:33is what actually makes Wikipedia a difficult thing it's like they're not like every supermarket

1:18:39I don't even know what they are, so they can't be like, it's not like you go to supermarkets

1:18:43and you can't move from muffins.

1:18:45Wikipedia checked and they're available in every supermarket.

1:18:48They had somebody go around.

1:18:50There's a Tesco in Bath that doesn't have them, they're gonna delete that comment.

1:18:55Oh god.

1:18:57That's it.

1:18:58That's it.

1:18:59I thought we'd end on a high note.

1:19:00Oh definitely.

1:19:01If you want to find our show notes, our lovingly crafted show notes, go to relay.fm/upgrades/70

1:19:06you'll also find links to support this show if you want to you can do that and

1:19:11we would love you to become a relay FM member and consider supporting upgrade

1:19:15if you would like to follow us online Jason is at J Snell J S and E double L

1:19:20on Twitter and he's over at six colors calm and I am at I Myke I am y-k-e thank

1:19:27you so much listening thank you so much to Casper and Squarespace for sponsoring

1:19:30and we'll be back next time until then say goodbye mr. Snell here's a message

1:19:35for all of you fast listeners out there.

1:19:37Gooooooooodbyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

1:19:37Goodbye!

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