0:00:00[Music]
0:00:08From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode number
0:00:1163. Today's show is brought to you by lynda.com,
0:00:15fracture and stamps.com. My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Mr. Jason Snell.
0:00:21Hi Myke, how's it going? I am very well Mr. Snell, how are you today?
0:00:24I'm pretty good. We got our
0:00:28iPads Pro, did we not? Both, yes, the iPads who are pro, yes, the professional iPads.
0:00:33Professional iPads. Yes. How are you? I'm good, so we had to bring in a
0:00:40professional guest to help us talk about this professional product today. It's
0:00:43important. And we have iMore's own Serenity Caldwell. Hello. Hello, Ren, how
0:00:50are you? I'm good. Thank you so much for joining us today. Absolutely, I love to be
0:00:55part of professional conversations.
0:00:57This is all very serious today.
0:00:59This is Upgrade Pro now.
0:01:01Upgrade Pro is a different product line in the upgrade podcast product line.
0:01:08But you know what isn't serious, Jason?
0:01:11What?
0:01:12Our follow-up.
0:01:14It really isn't.
0:01:16We have two items in the follow-up.
0:01:18One is completely unrelated.
0:01:20We talked about emoji last week and how they're adding 60 emoji, and I just wanted to point
0:01:24out we had on Clockwise last week one of our sponsors has a sock related product.
0:01:30We can talk about it. It's Foot Cardigan. They haven't sponsored this episode but it's
0:01:34totally fine. It's the same network. You're one of the hosts I think. I think it's okay.
0:01:39It's Foot Cardigan and we were we it was a funny you know it was a funny and fun ad read
0:01:45from a company that's got a good sense of humor all their all their communications with
0:01:48customers are funny it's it's it was funny but I realized after we were done that and
0:01:53The conclusion we came to in the end was that we needed to change the name of the podcast
0:01:56to Sockwise and just make it all about socks.
0:01:59Thirty minutes about socks every week.
0:02:02Is that any more ridiculous than a podcast entirely about pens, I ask you?
0:02:06Don't answer.
0:02:07Anyway, there's no sock emoji.
0:02:09That's my entire point.
0:02:10There's no sock emoji.
0:02:12And you consulted Jeremy at Emojipedia, I assume.
0:02:16Yes, and what Jeremy said was, "It's a slippery slope that leads to lots of emoji of underpants,
0:02:22do I really want to live in that world?" which I said actually yeah I think I do
0:02:26but because I want because I want a sock emoji but I think there should be an
0:02:29underpants emoji there probably should be an underpants there should probably
0:02:33be a boxer boxers emoji and a briefs emoji mm-hmm I agree I agree we should
0:02:41have emoji for everything perhaps there are other types of undergarments that
0:02:45we're not familiar with in our culture in in male culture Jason yeah indeed
0:02:51Well, I was gonna ask I'm not going to presume what what what what undergarments worn by women should be part of the emoji spec
0:02:59I will leave that to others. Good. What do you think?
0:03:02Equal opportunity emojis. All right, well, this is why they have a committee
0:03:07Ladies have very nice frilly underwear that usually doesn't get seen because it is, you know designed to be worn under clothes
0:03:15So why not have a fun emoji with frilly underwear? There'd be fun
0:03:19emoji, Unicode emoji subcommittee, take note.
0:03:22We very quickly devolved away from the professional show.
0:03:25It did not take long to do that.
0:03:27No, no, this is a follow-up.
0:03:28Follow-up is not part of the actual show.
0:03:29This is the unprofessional follow-up from the previous weeks.
0:03:32The other thing I wanted to mention is listener Kyle Seth Gray was reporting that he was in
0:03:37a Starbucks and his stickers, his relay stickers on his laptop drew the attention of somebody
0:03:45in the store.
0:03:46As the story goes, he sent a series of tweets that the person who was taking note of the
0:03:56relay stickers actually listens to all the great shows and is an Upgrading.
0:04:01So they're out there.
0:04:02You may run into them in the...
0:04:04We need to create the secret handshake and symbol for Upgrading so that they can recognize
0:04:10themselves in the wild.
0:04:12But I thought that was just a fun little story.
0:04:15of gradients around there.
0:04:16It's a fun little story.
0:04:17They are out there, if you know where to look.
0:04:20Next week is going to be a mic at the movies week.
0:04:23Jason, what have you chosen for me?
0:04:28Our movie next week, so I was thinking, you know, our remit is generally the 80s, although
0:04:31we may have to stray from that occasionally, but generally we're looking for things in
0:04:34the 80s, and I asked you if you wanted to go comedy or sort of sci-fi action, and you
0:04:38said always comedy if I get to choose, so we're going to veer back to comedy.
0:04:41And I thought, you know, we've done John Cusack movies, we did say anything, we've done Rob
0:04:46Reiner with This Is Spinal Tap and The Princess Bride, why not put them both together with
0:04:51an underappreciated film that is, while on its surface, like some of the other movies
0:04:57we've seen, could be said as a sort of a teen romantic comedy or a teen sex comedy from
0:05:03the '80s, is I think underappreciated and has a little bit more going for it.
0:05:07Although you'll be the judge when you watch it.
0:05:09It's called "The Sure Thing" from 1985 and I decree it the next Myke in the Movies pick.
0:05:18I have grown a great affinity for 80's Cusack movies so I'm looking forward to this one.
0:05:24Have you even ever heard of this movie?
0:05:26I mean I've heard that phrase.
0:05:29It is a phrase.
0:05:30Exactly.
0:05:31So my brain might be thinking like "yeah I've heard of that" but I may have just heard people
0:05:34say "the sure thing" before so I'm gonna say I know nothing about this movie other than
0:05:38than what you've just told me.
0:05:40- Okay, well it's like I said, underappreciated,
0:05:43but we'll be the judge in watching it back.
0:05:45Perhaps, I haven't seen it in years,
0:05:47perhaps we will have different feelings about it next week,
0:05:49I don't know, but that's the choice.
0:05:51So rev up your hot tub time machines
0:05:54and go back to 1985 for the true thing.
0:05:56And that's it.
0:05:59- That's it for follow up.
0:06:00So let's kick off with some iPad Pro talk.
0:06:02So I'm assuming all three of us,
0:06:06we all have iPad Pros, right?
0:06:08I'm looking at one right now. Yeah, I've got it right in front of me. Mine's behind me
0:06:12I actually started putting stickers onto it today to the whole of many people
0:06:17mm-hmm
0:06:18Directly onto it or onto a casing that you have wrapped around it directly onto the back
0:06:23That escalated quickly
0:06:25I guess you're keeping it
0:06:27I guess you decided to keep it then and not return it even that risk is gonna be a very lengthy cleaning process before
0:06:34Right now it feels like this is a device that I'm gonna be keeping and then we'll probably talk about why
0:06:39I picked mine up on Wednesday. I actually went to a store and bought one
0:06:45They were out in the stores. So I went and picked one up
0:06:49No accessories yet. We'll talk about that in a bit. But Jason, what is your impression?
0:06:55From a work perspective. I mean, you know
0:06:58I know that you and Ren share a lot of the qualities in both being writers and doing a lot of that kind of stuff
0:07:03for a living.
0:07:04So I'm wondering what you guys think about this tool
0:07:08as a writing tool.
0:07:09So, Wren, why don't you let me know what you think?
0:07:12- The iPad Pro.
0:07:13Well, my confession about iPads in general,
0:07:17and I feel like a horrible iPad person for saying this,
0:07:20but like after the original iPad,
0:07:22my iPad usage dramatically declined
0:07:25in that I was using it primarily to sketch and draw.
0:07:29And then once I got the mini,
0:07:31I just abandoned my original iPad and then went to the mini
0:07:34and I gave the original to my mother.
0:07:36And then once I upgraded to the 6S Plus with the bigger screen
0:07:42and 3D Touch, I just abandoned my iPad altogether
0:07:46and started using the iPhone.
0:07:48Because I'm like, oh, I can use a Jot Dash to sketch on the iPhone
0:07:51and zooming and everything.
0:07:53This is really nice.
0:07:54So the iPad Pro is really my first venture back
0:07:57into iPad, full time iPad in quite some time.
0:08:02And I am pleasantly surprised.
0:08:06I had written the iPad off pretty heavily
0:08:09for tasks that I do every day in my job,
0:08:12because I try and do a lot of them on my iPhone
0:08:15and I hate doing them on my iPhone.
0:08:16It's just uncomfortable.
0:08:18I hate virtual keyboards.
0:08:19The iPad Pro, for one thing,
0:08:23I didn't think that the additional screen real estate
0:08:26would really make that much of a difference, but it does.
0:08:28It makes it feel like a real--
0:08:30not a real computer, but it makes
0:08:31it feel like a power machine, like it
0:08:33deserves to run a lot of stuff and be
0:08:39worthy of your day-to-day professional business routine.
0:08:44And the other thing, I did not pick up
0:08:46any of Apple's official accessories,
0:08:48but I did pick up a Logitech Create case, which
0:08:50is one of the first keyboard accessories that
0:08:52uses Apple's smart connector.
0:08:55And that has just completely changed
0:08:58how I look at writing on an iPad.
0:09:00'Cause I've hated every other Bluetooth keyboard
0:09:02I've used with an iPad.
0:09:03I even, even Apple's own Bluetooth keyboard is frustrating
0:09:08because you have to remember to turn it on and it's bulky
0:09:10and you have to carry it around and nah, nah, nah.
0:09:14This Logitech keyboard is a little bulky, yes.
0:09:17And the case is awful.
0:09:19It just doesn't fit right.
0:09:20But the keyboard itself is amazing.
0:09:23And there is backlights.
0:09:24and the fact that it just turns on
0:09:27when I connect my iPad to it.
0:09:28Like I just snap my iPad into it
0:09:30and the keyboard is there within seconds.
0:09:32And then as soon as I don't want the keyboard,
0:09:33I just pick my iPad up out of the keyboard
0:09:35and then the keyboard turns off.
0:09:37I don't have to worry about switches.
0:09:38I don't have to worry about batteries.
0:09:41It's just, it's made going from all touch interface
0:09:45to touch and typing to just typing,
0:09:47back to touching, just seamless.
0:09:50It's really cool.
0:09:52It's really cool.
0:09:54Yeah, I mean, I'm doing an experiment this week where I'm just using my iPad, which has
0:09:59resulted in this weird hack that I'm doing right now where I have Adobe screens open
0:10:05on my iPad Pro, and I'm using it to control my Mac as a giant sound recorder for this
0:10:10podcast, because I don't have a...
0:10:13It's just a really big microphone interface.
0:10:16That's what I said on Twitter.
0:10:17I'm like, essentially, my iMac has been reduced to a giant sound recorder that has headphones.
0:10:23And that is definitely a compromise.
0:10:26That is not something that makes the iPad easier to use as a sound recording machine
0:10:30or easier to use than a computer.
0:10:33But overall, all of the tasks that I have been doing so far in my day to day, I've actually
0:10:39found to be just as easy, if not easier on the iPad Pro.
0:10:43And that is something that I did not expect.
0:10:47I was really planning on running into a lot more problems when I first started.
0:10:52So that's kind of my overall.
0:10:54There was something that I wanted to mention.
0:10:57You said a moment ago that you had written off the iPad.
0:11:03What was it that made you feel that way?
0:11:05Did you not think it was powerful enough at the time?
0:11:07Was there like a lack of apps?
0:11:10How long ago would you say that you felt that way and what kind of brought you to that conclusion?
0:11:15So a lot of it was lack of apps and lack of speed.
0:11:19I had the original iPad until I got the first generation iPad mini.
0:11:24So I skipped the iPad 2 and the iPad 3.
0:11:28And then the next full size iPad I had was the iPad Air 2.
0:11:32And I hate to say that the iPad Air 2 basically was nothing but a game device for playing
0:11:37the room, but it really was.
0:11:39Even though I knew that this was a powerful device and could clearly do a lot from a gaming
0:11:45perspective.
0:11:47I just, I don't know, when I when I went to conceivably do productive work on an iPad, all I could think of was my first experience with an iPad back in 2010, where it was really fun to sketch on.
0:12:00And the sketch programs have only gotten better and better. But I have been so hesitant on using it for productivity uses. Because for me, the majority of my workday requires a keyboard.
0:12:14And I am very, very anti software keyboard.
0:12:21I am more of a fan of the iPad Pro keyboard
0:12:24than I am of previous iPad keyboards,
0:12:26and that's because of the size.
0:12:28On the iPad Air 2, on the iPad Mini especially,
0:12:32it just isn't comfortable to try and type the way that I'm
0:12:35accustomed to typing, which is to say not one finger at a time
0:12:39on a traditional hardware keyboard.
0:12:41I like being able to type quickly when I'm doing work work,
0:12:45when I'm not just like typing out tweets.
0:12:48When I have to write an article, I don't wanna touch type.
0:12:50I don't wanna be like, T-H-E space,
0:12:53like that's, it just, it's too long.
0:12:55And it, again, if we're talking about making the iPad
0:12:58fit seamlessly into your workflow
0:13:00versus forcing the iPad into your workflow,
0:13:04I never wanted to force the iPad into my workflow.
0:13:07That just didn't feel good to me.
0:13:08I'm like, I'm not going to use a device
0:13:10that doesn't feel right for my workflow just to use it,
0:13:14just to do a gimmick, which is why I was kind of so excited
0:13:18about my project this week, because it is part gimmick,
0:13:23being like, I'm just going to use an iPad Pro.
0:13:25But also, it's legitimately allowed
0:13:27me to rediscover just how powerful the iPad platform has
0:13:31become, and how far it's come, and what has changed since I--
0:13:36as you said, since I wrote it off, since I basically said,
0:13:39Nope. iPad is not for me as a writer.
0:13:42It's just not not what I like it for.
0:13:44And I'm willing to eat some claim chowder here.
0:13:48Like I'm there's there's a lot that's changed.
0:13:50And honestly, as a writer, I almost feel like this device is
0:13:55in some ways better for me than my MacBook Air, which is something
0:14:00that I did not expect I was going to be saying before I started this.
0:14:03And does this claim kind of really exist for just the iPad Pro?
0:14:08I think to a lesser extent the iPad Air 2 is true. iOS 9's multitasking features are of course a huge asset.
0:14:19But I really do think, at least for me personally, the iPad Pro is what makes it feasible because of the screen size, so that split view actually makes some amount of sense.
0:14:33I still feel like split view on the iPad Air 2
0:14:35feels more gimmicky than realistic in terms of--
0:14:38Especially if the software keyboard is split out, yeah.
0:14:40Yes, exactly.
0:14:42When the software keyboard is covering half the screen,
0:14:44then you just have these little tiny boxes.
0:14:46And it's essentially like you have two iPhones glued
0:14:48next to each other.
0:14:49It just doesn't feel workable.
0:14:53The iPad Pro has the bigger screen, has more real estate.
0:14:57It seems much faster than the Air 2.
0:14:59I know the Air 2 is very powerful,
0:15:01but the Pro just blows it out of the water.
0:15:04And the fact that the on-screen keyboard is full size
0:15:08and the hardware keyboard is full size
0:15:10and not full size cramped,
0:15:12but full size with some breathing room.
0:15:14Like the Logitech Create, despite again,
0:15:16having a terrible top case,
0:15:18the keyboard itself feels so good on my hands
0:15:22and it has this beautiful top row
0:15:24that has a button to go back to the home screen
0:15:27a button to go to the search screen, the spotlight screen.
0:15:33My favorite button, a button to bring up universal keyboards so you can actually switch without
0:15:38having to touch the screen between your regular keyboard and your emoji keyboard or a different
0:15:43language keyboard.
0:15:45If you like third party keyboards, this physical button suddenly makes third party keyboards
0:15:50really really easy to use.
0:15:51And it's just little things like that that really, really have improved the experience
0:15:58for me.
0:15:59Jason, does this mirror any of your thoughts, like writing with the iPad Pro?
0:16:05Is it more of a machine that you're willing to do this type of work on than the iPad Air
0:16:092?
0:16:10Because I know that when we were speaking about this a couple of weeks ago, you still
0:16:13weren't really using your iPad Air 2 in that kind of way.
0:16:17No, I occasionally use the iPad Mini and Air as a writing tool, sort of as a change of
0:16:25pace, or if I was somewhere only with that, but, and we can mention this later, for podcasting
0:16:33reasons, it's very hard for me to travel without a laptop because of things that the laptop
0:16:39really is required for.
0:16:41But for this, yeah, like we said, the iPad Air 2, as nice as the multitasking is, if
0:16:48you're especially without an external keyboard, then there's very little room.
0:16:56It is very cramped up there.
0:16:57And on the iPad Pro, even with the slide-out keyboard, it feels like you can use that split
0:17:03mode and have it be much--there's more room to see information, and it's just more comfortable.
0:17:09And then if you have an external keyboard, then it is a vast amount of space.
0:17:15I mean, it's like you've got a big, almost like a landscape iPad Air app and an iPhone
0:17:22app running together, or if you go 50/50, you basically have two kind of portrait iPad
0:17:26apps running side by side.
0:17:29And the fact is a lot of the iPad apps are really great.
0:17:33There is a compatibility issue here, which surprised me.
0:17:36There are some apps that work really well on the iPad Pro.
0:17:40They've been updated to take advantage and resize themselves on the bigger screen.
0:17:44And then there's some that haven't.
0:17:48And you know, it's a little bit like going to the iPhone 6 where you notice that the
0:17:52keyboard is wrong and the bar--
0:17:55- Hello, big keyboard!
0:17:56- Yeah, giant keyboard and the time, suddenly the time and the thing that says iPad up on
0:18:02the top bar are much larger than they just were because we're in a compatibility mode
0:18:06now and it's usable but everything is just kind of blown up and that's kind of unfriendly.
0:18:13Also iOS 9.1 that ships on the iPad Pro has a bug where even when you've got an external
0:18:20keyboard attached like the smart keyboard or the Logitech keyboard it will still slide
0:18:25out the software keyboard every time when you enter a text field and that's fixed in
0:18:30the 9.2 betas apparently, but in 9.1 it's that's a that's a bug that is just
0:18:35annoying. So there are some software issues in the OS and there's definitely
0:18:39some issues where some of the apps you know are just not are just not up to up
0:18:45to speed and where I really noticed it was in in productivity app stuff like a
0:18:50lot of the markdown text editors don't have support for it yet which is
0:18:54problematic especially since some of them like to lay extra rows of software
0:18:58keyboard that don't go away even when you've got an external keyboard attached
0:19:01and or they don't work well with the you know they can't use the new keyboard so
0:19:06you get the giant keyboard plus another row which is not great and Google Docs
0:19:09all the Google apps are are unusable essentially I was using I took a
0:19:16screenshot on Friday I wrote an entire article in an orthodontist waiting room
0:19:21because my daughter was getting braces and I just sat there and I actually had
0:19:24the smart keyboard in my lap and it worked.
0:19:28I think this is what people who use the Surface say
0:19:31about using it in their lap is sort of,
0:19:33if your lap is stable, you can use it.
0:19:36It's a little bit kind of balanced,
0:19:37but you can make it work.
0:19:39I wrote a whole article, but I wrote it in Microsoft Word.
0:19:42And why did I do that?
0:19:43Because Microsoft Word has been updated
0:19:46to support the iPad Pro and I was able to run it
0:19:49in split view and use the smart keyboard
0:19:53and it all worked really great.
0:19:54and then I used, I wrote another article in One Writer, which has also been updated and
0:19:58was very good, but a lot of these apps just haven't been updated and the Google stuff
0:20:01is just, it's almost unusable, like it's text inputs all messed up and the other thing that
0:20:06disappointed me is the comic book apps, like Marvel Unlimited, Comixology, they haven't
0:20:11been updated either, so while you've got a comic on a big screen and it looks great because
0:20:15it's a little bit bigger than the actual physical comic, those apps are upscaled right now,
0:20:21aren't providing any extra resolution because they're all just scaled in the
0:20:25compatibility mode. So there's definitely some new device pain here. It's not as
0:20:29painful as some of the other device iOS screen size transitions have been, but
0:20:34there's definitely some of that too. But bottom line, I wrote two articles on the
0:20:38iPad Pro on Friday with the external keyboard and was able to do a
0:20:45little more with the multitasking split view, whether it was checking in on
0:20:50Slack or something like that or whether it was having a web browser open so I
0:20:54could get some information off the web and then put it in the article.
0:20:58I'm a big Google Drive user like Docs and Sheets. I'm confident that they will
0:21:05update because Chrome has been updated but my feeling about this and I don't
0:21:11know that what's going on behind the scenes but just looking at what Google
0:21:15Docs is doing on iOS, I expect there is a ton of custom stuff in there.
0:21:20And I feel like, which I was thinking about this today, I was listening to ATP and they
0:21:26were talking about kind of windowing and all that kind of stuff.
0:21:31And I was thinking about apps that aren't currently using the split screen stuff.
0:21:36And it seems like a lot of the apps that currently aren't updated for the split screen stuff
0:21:40are bigger companies.
0:21:41So Google, right?
0:21:43mentioned Comixology, which is owned by Amazon. And I started thinking about the
0:21:47problem that Apple creates for itself with its secrecy. Because big companies
0:21:53like Google are not going to, I would assume, put a ton of work and time and
0:22:01money into updating and developing their apps until they know they need to. Right?
0:22:06So when all this stuff like the the auto layout stuff, I can imagine that a
0:22:11lot of these companies don't really start working on it seriously until they
0:22:15know it's needed. So they see the devices come out. Because you know I kind of
0:22:20think about it it's like why would you? Like if I am Google I'm not
0:22:25gonna start putting man-hours and time into projects that are potentially
0:22:31beneficial. And I think that Apple if they like so you end up with a product
0:22:36like the iPad Pro or just iOS 9 multitasking on the iPad in general, and a lot of apps
0:22:42still aren't supporting it, and I believe it's because they just haven't—they started
0:22:46working on it the day that the product came out, as opposed to when the APIs were put
0:22:51into iOS 9.
0:22:52Yeah, they could have gone—this is the story that savvy Apple developers know this, right?
0:23:00It's like, once Apple starts talking about this stuff, that's a hint, right?
0:23:03It's like, you should implement it
0:23:05because it will pay off later.
0:23:07And recently Apple's track record there has been very good.
0:23:10That when they say you should do this, you should do it.
0:23:13And yet, yes, there are some developers like,
0:23:15well, we'll see.
0:23:16And then a new product drops and they're like,
0:23:18oh, I guess I should do that thing
0:23:19that Apple told me to do two years ago.
0:23:22And that does happen.
0:23:24And also there are big organizations,
0:23:26I think you're right, Myke,
0:23:27like Google probably has a very specific
0:23:30sort of product development cycle for their iOS apps.
0:23:33and they're probably working on a release,
0:23:36a milestone release that perhaps will have this in it,
0:23:38but they're not necessarily capable of dropping that
0:23:42on day one of the iPad Pro.
0:23:44But I will say Apple released
0:23:46a professional productivity iPad
0:23:48and Microsoft was there day one and Google wasn't.
0:23:52- Well, I think the reason for that
0:23:54is Apple approached Microsoft
0:23:56and they put them on stage.
0:23:58- Perhaps that is part of it,
0:24:00But be that as it may, you know,
0:24:04all of those apps were there
0:24:05and a bunch of the independent apps were there
0:24:06and Google stuff.
0:24:07You know, Google's known the iPad Pro was coming
0:24:09since September 9th.
0:24:11So it's not like they didn't have two months of awareness
0:24:13that this was a product.
0:24:14So it's fine.
0:24:15I'm sure they'll update it.
0:24:16But as for now, I was trying to update.
0:24:18We do a lot of our stuff for this show in Google Docs
0:24:20and I have a Google spreadsheet.
0:24:22I tried to use Google Sheets on the iPad Pro
0:24:23and I just gave up.
0:24:24It was ridiculous.
0:24:25- It's painful.
0:24:26- It works though.
0:24:27Like I'm still using it every day.
0:24:29It definitely works.
0:24:30it's just a little bit comical.
0:24:32- Try it with the external keyboard
0:24:33and you'll find that it doesn't always work.
0:24:35Half the time it won't accept keyboard input
0:24:38until you get into a very particular state where it will.
0:24:41Anyway, this isn't about Google sheets being terrible
0:24:44on the iPad Pro, but suffice it to say, it is.
0:24:48Anyway.
0:24:49- It's the problem with apps in general.
0:24:51You know, you buy this product day one,
0:24:54we are early adopters in that we kind of expect
0:24:57that things are gonna be broken
0:24:58and things aren't maybe going to be 100%.
0:25:02But people who are just seeing, oh, big iPad, maybe this
0:25:06could replace my laptop.
0:25:07Maybe this could just be a new device that I use in my house.
0:25:10They go and they pick it up and they're like, what do you mean?
0:25:13I can't buy my keyboard for it.
0:25:16What do you mean I can't buy a pencil for it?
0:25:18You guys were advertising that.
0:25:19What do you mean my PDF software doesn't work the way
0:25:22that I want it to?
0:25:23What do you mean that I can't use Google Docs right now?
0:25:25It's just, unfortunately, because this device relies so much on key software,
0:25:33it's almost worse to me that the software works poorly than it just doesn't work or is not available at all.
0:25:41Because then it just feels like a bad experience.
0:25:44Whereas I feel like if it wasn't available at all, then it's a, "Okay, well, but it's probably coming soon, right?"
0:25:52But if you have a, oh, it works, but it takes up two thirds of the screen with a virtual keyboard, despite the fact that you're using a physical keyboard or collaborating with somebody just doesn't work because the comments won't show up.
0:26:06That kind of bugginess is really frustrating.
0:26:09And the average user doesn't think, oh, someone hasn't updated their app.
0:26:14It's, oh, Apple is broken with Google Docs.
0:26:17What am I going to do?
0:26:18Yeah. Yep.
0:26:19I agree.
0:26:21And I wonder what it takes to get to that point,
0:26:24but I feel like there could be the potential
0:26:29for Apple to maybe be more willing
0:26:30to work with these companies.
0:26:31I don't know how much they are,
0:26:33but I think at the end of the day,
0:26:34it is a problem for Apple more than it is for Google.
0:26:38- Yeah.
0:26:39- But I just, I gotta say, I don't,
0:26:41I put this entirely on Google.
0:26:43It's Google's fault.
0:26:44It's not, I'm not gonna give Google an out
0:26:46and say Apple should have done more to work with them.
0:26:48Size classes have been part of the discussion at WWDC since 2013, I believe?
0:26:55Yeah, for years now.
0:26:56Not even 2014, 2013.
0:26:59And this product has existed for, has been announced for two months and rumored for a
0:27:03lot longer than that.
0:27:05And Google, if Google had wanted to make an effort to support it on day one, it could
0:27:10have, and it didn't.
0:27:12And we can, I can excuse it by saying Google's got a different product cycle and they're
0:27:16working on something, perhaps, that we'll see. But, you know, I think, could Apple have
0:27:22been more aggressive in courting other developers to get them on board? Sure. And they chose,
0:27:28obviously, to work with Microsoft so that they could get them on stage. But I don't
0:27:32think I'm going to give Google a pass for not having their productivity apps ready for
0:27:38the iPad Pro when it was released. And we'll see. This is not a big deal if they release
0:27:41an update in a week that does it. The question is, will it be in a week? Will it be in a
0:27:47month? Will it be in three months? That's, I think, an open question with Google.
0:27:51Let's take our first break and then we'll jump straight back into this. This week's
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0:30:18- So one thing we did mention that I wanted to talk about
0:30:20was about the size of this thing
0:30:23and what context in which it works
0:30:26and what context in which it does not work,
0:30:28because I think that's interesting.
0:30:29And I'm curious what the both of you
0:30:31have experienced with this.
0:30:32I'll say for me, what surprised me is, yeah,
0:30:35sitting on a desk, sitting on the bar
0:30:37in my kitchen counter, even at the orthodontist's office
0:30:42in my lap on the smart keyboard, it felt fine
0:30:48and it worked well.
0:30:49And I actually found that sitting on my couch
0:30:52in my living room, when I tried to hold it
0:30:56and use it like an iPad Air, it was uncomfortable,
0:30:59but I seem to have adapted to the size of it
0:31:03and the weight of it and where my hands need to be
0:31:06in order to use the onscreen keyboard.
0:31:08And I kind of got, I think, a good place for that.
0:31:11The one place where I felt like it just didn't work for me
0:31:15is in bed, where I wake up in the morning
0:31:18and I wanna check Twitter and Slack,
0:31:20and it's a very lean back experience,
0:31:21or I'm going to bed and I'm gonna read Twitter,
0:31:23I'm gonna read some webpages,
0:31:24I'm gonna read some Instapaper, whatever it is.
0:31:26And those are cases where I'm not doing much text
0:31:29input and I'm not sitting up. And in those places, it felt just like overkill. Like it
0:31:39was just too huge. It was this huge screen. I didn't really need it to be huge. It's huge
0:31:44and heavier. And in that context, I felt like it was not a great experience. And I think
0:31:52it's unlikely, and this is one of the challenges. If you're somebody who uses an iPad in that
0:31:56scenario, I think this is an issue because I don't think people are gonna have like their
0:32:02night iPad and their day iPad, right? But I feel like the pro, while bringing you all
0:32:08of these other things when you put it on a table or a desk, when you are in a kind of
0:32:13a casual lean-back environment and not watching a movie where the big screen is gonna really
0:32:18do it, but you're just sort of like reading and you're about to go to bed or you just
0:32:20woke up it's kind of crazy big and and I have not found it as pleasurable in that
0:32:26in that scenario I'm curious what what where you guys have found it to be good
0:32:31and if there are any particular settings where you kind of aren't where it's not
0:32:38working for you you know for me I look at the iPad Pro like I look at something
0:32:44like my laptop or even a coffee table book it's something that to me doesn't
0:32:50belong, like I wouldn't bring a coffee table book into bed with me.
0:32:53Just you know, they're nice to look at and I like reading them, but it's
0:32:58something that is a little unwieldy to hold when you're groggy and wanting to
0:33:02go to bed or just waking up in the morning. So I did use the iPad Pro
0:33:08last week in bed with the keyboard case when I was recuperating and that I
0:33:13thought was fine. That felt very similarly to how I use my MacBook Air if
0:33:18if I'm sick and just want to curl up under covers and also
0:33:21write.
0:33:23But as a casual bedside device, I vastly prefer the 6S Plus.
0:33:31That has a big enough screen where
0:33:33I can read well without necessarily needing something
0:33:38as large as a mini or a full-size iPad.
0:33:41But I will say, in contrast, Jason, I actually really,
0:33:45really like taking the iPad out of the Logitech case and reading it in portrait for big articles.
0:33:51I subscribe to a social network that just went out of beta called This where it's basically
0:33:58like Twitter except you can only send one tweet per day and it's basically a link.
0:34:04So you're basically saying this is the best link that I found today.
0:34:08This is the most interesting story I found today.
0:34:11And at the end of the day, the editors of that service collect five or six articles
0:34:16that you have to basically the best articles that have been shared today that you should
0:34:20absolutely read.
0:34:22So at the end of the day, after I've done with work, I'll usually take or I have been
0:34:26taking the iPad turning it into portrait and relaxing and reading those five or six articles.
0:34:32And that has actually been a really pleasurable experience, especially because those linked
0:34:36articles are usually like big spreads from the Atlantic or the New York Times and really
0:34:41well designed with CSS.
0:34:43JJ Abrams' Star Wars Wired interview was one of them a week back or so and I was catching
0:34:50up.
0:34:52In that regard, I actually really like it.
0:34:55Again I look at it like a coffee table book where it's not for your average web reading,
0:35:00but if you want to sit back and really enjoy something long form or enjoy something that
0:35:05has great photos, then I think it's worth the extra girth. But no, I have no desire
0:35:14to hold it over my face and have it break my nose in the morning.
0:35:19So I have transitioned the iPad Pro to be the device that I use at home when I'm not
0:35:26at my Mac. So this was previously my iPad Air 2. I use my iPhone for little bits and
0:35:32Bob's but it's not the primary machine when I'm at home that is when I'm kind
0:35:36of out and about in the world so the iPad Pro has taken over all the duties
0:35:41of the air so this is kind of lounging around but also like in bed in the
0:35:45evening and in bed in the morning when I'm kind of like finishing my day and
0:35:48starting my day I am using the iPad Pro for this it is a lot bigger it is a
0:35:54little bit more uncomfortable to hold when reading and stuff like that but I'm
0:35:58working it into my life and kind of changing my habits about like the way
0:36:03that I'll hold it and the way that I use it because whilst it's not necessarily
0:36:09as perfect a device there it is way better than my other devices in other
0:36:14areas so I'm like finding a balance. Like for example watching Netflix it's way
0:36:18better than my MacBook. The screen sizes are about the same but the screen looks
0:36:23way nicer and it sounds way better. The sound is great. The funny thing is whilst this is
0:36:31the iPad Pro it's also the best iPad they've ever made for content consumption. It really
0:36:36is. I keep saying this phrase and people think it's silly but it's the most iPad iPad that
0:36:43has ever been made. It's like everything that is good about an iPad this is turned up to
0:36:4811. Also physically it is the most iPad. Exactly. It is the most. But you're right. You're right. This is one of the reasons why it's wrong to say this is only a device for professional users to use to do professional work because of that. Because watching a movie on that big screen and through those speakers which are far and away the best iOS device speakers ever made. It's not going to replace a giant home theater or something.
0:37:18but they're so much better. The dynamic range is so much better and they're so much louder.
0:37:25And so yeah, it is the best movie watching on an iPad experience you're ever going to
0:37:28have.
0:37:29It's also better, in my opinion, the speakers are better than most Macs right now. I think
0:37:34the iMac probably edges it out a little bit. But comparing that to every single laptop
0:37:38that I have in my house, it sounds cleaner, crisper and more surround, in part due to
0:37:44of course, the speakers being everywhere, but it really is a different experience than
0:37:50listening to sound on a laptop.
0:37:52It's vastly superior to my MacBook Pro.
0:37:55It's like night and day.
0:37:56We just don't use that now to watch anything.
0:37:59We just use the iPad.
0:38:01And it's really taken that spot for me, but it is also just an excellent device to get
0:38:06work done.
0:38:08The fact that you can have, you know, in landscape, you effectively had to portray iPads is amazing.
0:38:14amazing. But it is forcing me to rethink some of the apps that I use, right? I've spoken
0:38:20about it on this show and on other shows. I am a mailbox user, but it looks like nothing's
0:38:25happening anymore with mailbox. There hasn't really been any significant changes to that
0:38:29app in a while. And I've been kind of like struggling along on other platforms and trying
0:38:34not to let go because it's just the app that I'm used to and the one that I use, but it's
0:38:38bad times on the iPad Pro. It looks ridiculous and it's not going to change. So like it's
0:38:44it's forcing me to rethink some of that stuff and I'm happy to do it and in the
0:38:48same way that I'm happy to rethink the way that I kind of use an iPad at home
0:38:52because I really really love the iPad Pro I really really do it is awesome
0:38:58just for this type of stuff that I use my iPad for it is just fantastic and I
0:39:04really really want to be able to replace my MacBook with this completely and it's
0:39:11so close except for podcast editing. So I do like I do 99% of my podcast editing
0:39:20on my iMac obviously and I use my MacBook Pro when I go out and work in
0:39:26other places. The only other time that I use my MacBook Pro in a different way is
0:39:31when I'm traveling and say I'm flying or whatever and I always now edit podcasts
0:39:36on planes. If I'm on a plane I will make sure I stack up some podcast editing to
0:39:40do as was taught to me by Mr. Jason Snell because airplanes are fantastic places to
0:39:45edit podcasts. They really are. So I use my MacBook Pro for that because I can get
0:39:50logic and obviously having an iPad over a MacBook is perfect when you're
0:39:56traveling it's like the ideal time for it but I still am not comfortable with
0:40:02some of the other solutions and we're going to talk about one that Jason used
0:40:04in a moment because logic is what I know, logic is what I trust and it does
0:40:08everything that I need and considering this is my business I'm a little bit
0:40:12apprehensive of trusting an app other than logic right now.
0:40:17Yep. You might start to think about it though.
0:40:21So tell me about this app that you use. Is it Ferret?
0:40:24Ferret? I don't think it's Ferret because that is a creature.
0:40:30But what's Ferret?
0:40:32Isn't that like iron? An iron ore?
0:40:37- Yes, it's iron.
0:40:38- Yeah, iron or iron alloys, also used in magnets.
0:40:43But we're gonna call it ferrite.
0:40:46- Well, I'm gonna call it ferrite,
0:40:47but everybody else can call it ferrite.
0:40:48- No, don't call it a ferrite.
0:40:50Why is a weasel editing your podcast now?
0:40:53That is what people are gonna say
0:40:54and nobody should do that.
0:40:56It's an app from a company, we had fun with ferrite.
0:41:01It's a company called Wuji Juice.
0:41:03- See? - Okay.
0:41:06- Yep, the ferret is drinking Wuji juice right now.
0:41:08It's a free app with two in-app purchases that are,
0:41:12basically there's a $10 in-app purchase
0:41:14and there's a $20 in-app purchase
0:41:17that includes the contents of the $10 in-app purchase.
0:41:19So you could think of it as a sort of a stair step
0:41:22of two $10 in-app purchases.
0:41:24As you go, it enables more stuff.
0:41:27It's a multi-track editor.
0:41:28It looks a lot like Logic.
0:41:30There are other multi-track editors.
0:41:34on the iOS, I used Oriya a little bit,
0:41:37but I would say that although they're powerful,
0:41:39their interfaces have a lot to be desired.
0:41:41They feel like kind of almost like PC software interfaces
0:41:45that have been ported over to the iPad,
0:41:47whereas Ferrite's interface is really nice.
0:41:50It feels very much like an iOS native interface.
0:41:54It's fun to use.
0:41:57And most importantly, on Friday night, Thursday night,
0:42:02Thursday night, actually, it was when I got the iPad Pro,
0:42:04Thursday night I thought, "You know what I'm going to try to do?
0:42:07One of the things I should try to do this week is edit a podcast using this app."
0:42:11And I could do it on the iPad Pro, and then I could write about it in a couple of different
0:42:15contexts, and that would be a lot of fun.
0:42:17Now I did this knowing that I would probably give up, right?
0:42:21Because that's what's happened in the past when I've tried it, is I've done it for a
0:42:23little while and then I thought, "No, this is going to take forever.
0:42:28It's not there."
0:42:29So I imported all of the audio files from my Mac.
0:42:32I actually used iTunes to do it, so I dragged the files over because they're huge. I could
0:42:36have used iCloud Drive or Dropbox, but I just dragged them over, attached it via lightning
0:42:41cable, dragged the files in. Of all the recordings for this weekend's, this past weekend's, incomparable
0:42:49episode, so sort of five audio files plus the theme song, and I imported them all into
0:42:56Fairite and I sat down with Fairite and about an hour and a half or two hours later, which
0:43:00is my normal editing time for an episode of The Incomparable, I had the entire episode
0:43:05edited in Ferrite. It didn't really slow me down very much. There were a few little things
0:43:10that I've written to the developer about, but it has all of the tools that I use and
0:43:16the techniques I use for editing podcasts. It has a strip silence feature, it has a compressor
0:43:21and a noise gate, it has a "select all" -- there's a gesture to select all the clips that are
0:43:27forward from whatever item you've selected, which is a huge thing for me on Logic, and
0:43:32it's why I switched to Logic from GarageBand. You actually tap on a clip, and then you triple
0:43:36tap on that same clip, and it selects everything forward of it in the project, everything that's
0:43:41later in the project, and then you can slide it around. And I was able to edit the podcast
0:43:45with no problem. There were a few things that made me attach the keyboard, because there
0:43:49are some things that were noticeably more sort of sluggish or harder to engage on the
0:43:59touch screen where you had to sort of like tap something and then tap again and hold
0:44:03and it would bring up a context menu and then you'd tap that on the keyboard was a keyboard
0:44:07shortcut.
0:44:08So there were a few of those but mostly it I could totally edit podcasts on an iPad probably
0:44:15on an iPad Air too. The iPad Pro was nice because it was bigger, but I think it would
0:44:19have probably been fine even on the iPad Air. So I was very impressed with that, and that's
0:44:24a story that's, again, not just about the iPad Pro, but about the software. But that's
0:44:29a real thing that can really do it. It turned out in the end, Myke, you'll be amused to
0:44:34know the developer of this product, or one of the developers of it, came to our meetup
0:44:40in London. And I had forgotten that. And I vaguely remembered that somebody emailed me
0:44:46in June, I think, asking for some sample files from The Incomparable because they were working
0:44:51on an iOS podcast editor and they wanted to use real material that a real podcaster would
0:44:55use instead of just their sample files. And I sent them a whole bunch of the same sort
0:44:59of individual people's audio files and theme song and stuff. And it turns out it was this
0:45:04developer. So I'm using this app thinking, "Wow, this app does all the things that I
0:45:09wanted to do. This is amazing! And it turns out one of the reasons may be because the
0:45:14developer has read the things I've written about podcast editing and said, "Oh, I should
0:45:18do that feature." So there's a little telepathy involved, which is kind of fun. But in the
0:45:24end, it's pretty great. A $20 multi-track podcast editor, and you can try it for free
0:45:30because it's all in-app purchase. And I would say I could edit at more or less the same
0:45:35speed other than getting the files on and off, which is an issue. I could certainly
0:45:41now travel with just an iPad Air or an iPad Pro and Ferrite and edit podcasts and feel
0:45:47like I could do that on the road without a MacBook around.
0:45:51But it doesn't export to MP3, does it? That is a problem. In fact, it doesn't export
0:45:57to WAV or AIFF right now. It only exports to AAC. Now, apparently they're going to do
0:46:02a lossless export in their next update, I think is what they said to me. I hope that
0:46:08wasn't a secret. They're working on it, basically, whether it's their next update, I don't know.
0:46:12And MP3 is more problematic, although there are other apps that do MP3 exports, including
0:46:16and conversions.
0:46:17>>Yeah, so workflow will.
0:46:19>>Indeed, you can actually run it, run the sharing extension from workflow inside Fairite
0:46:25when you export and have an extension that generates an MP3 and uploads it to Dropbox
0:46:30or to an FTP server, like the one I use for Incomparable.
0:46:34And I did that after the fact and it totally worked.
0:46:38So the only issue there is it's double encoding
0:46:41at that point, which I'd prefer.
0:46:43So I'd prefer it to not do that,
0:46:45but very, very close, very, very close.
0:46:48And other than the time thing of having to, you know,
0:46:51copy a bunch of files off of Dropbox that are very large,
0:46:55that part works well too.
0:46:56So I was kinda blown away.
0:46:57And it was just a combination of getting that hardware
0:46:59and trying out the software and we're getting there.
0:47:03The problem is recording podcasts are not,
0:47:05when you're on Skype, like we are most of the time,
0:47:09that's difficult to do on iOS now because the,
0:47:14it's not that there isn't a way to transfer app audio
0:47:17from one app to another,
0:47:18because there is this audio bus thing
0:47:20that actually will do it,
0:47:22but none of the kind of conversation apps that we use,
0:47:25Skype, for example, support it.
0:47:28So right now you can't have a Skype conversation and record that conversation on the same device.
0:47:35So this is why the Federico Vittucci, the Vittucci exemption, as we might call it, where
0:47:43he does everything on the iPad except record his podcast.
0:47:46That's why it exists right now, still.
0:47:48Just to wrap up that ferret thing quickly, actually.
0:47:50That is interesting to me.
0:47:52The idea of being able to export lossless and then maybe converting the file in another
0:47:57app like Workflow. That's interesting. When they add that in I might be more
0:48:02willing to give it a go and see if I can actually produce something on there. But
0:48:07one of the big issues about all of this, the same with editing shows and
0:48:11recording shows on an iPad, it isn't even so much the fact that the tools don't
0:48:16exist, it's that the tools have to exist and then exist reliably for some time
0:48:22before I'm willing to go ahead and start using it seriously to do the
0:48:28stuff that actually puts food on my table. Oh I should say, speaking of
0:48:32reliability, somebody asked me if it didn't crash all the time and I said no.
0:48:36I had I think one crash with it and when I went back that was one of the moments
0:48:40of truth of like well am I gonna just give up now and when I went back it had
0:48:43all it had everything from when I had crashed. It didn't lose a thing. So even
0:48:48when it did crash and it only crashed once it didn't actually lose any of my
0:48:51data but understood I mean this is one of the challenges with any any mission
0:48:55critical workflow software is it needs to not just be provable that it works
0:49:01that's step one and then it needs to work reliably and you need to talk to
0:49:06people who've used it and then you need to try it out and see if it works for
0:49:08you and it's a long process before you give it the big bear hug and say okay
0:49:12you're part of my workflow now yeah yeah one of the things that made iMovie
0:49:18finally usable for me on both the iPhone and the iPad was the, well, I know it's going to crash,
0:49:24but okay, when I reload it, everything's still there. And I haven't actually lost anything,
0:49:30despite the fact that this program is occasionally buggy. And that's something I could probably say
0:49:35about the iPad as a whole right now, where there are a lot of things that aren't working quite
0:49:40right. Because it's a brand new product, and they're running into interesting software bugs.
0:49:47But at least things are, if not perfect, seem to be reliable in most of the apps that I'm using.
0:49:55Yeah, it's just like, it's one of those things where it's like, I don't, I understand that
0:50:04completely, right? That your things crash and it's all okay. But I really don't want to put that test
0:50:09in place, right? You know? Like they'll be like, "Oh, I'll try this app. Maybe it will be fine after
0:50:14after I give it a go for a couple of hours and put this in and then it crashes.
0:50:18But oh great, it's all fine, it's all on iOS.
0:50:20But I don't want to get to the point where I'm like, "Let me try!"
0:50:24Especially I'm not willing to do it in the scenarios where I would need it.
0:50:30Right? So I'm very, very unlikely to do this whilst on a trip.
0:50:36Right? To start using these apps to see if I can edit shows whilst on a trip.
0:50:40I need to try and do it here for a while first before I take the plunge on that.
0:50:45But then the other part of me is like,
0:50:47do I really have the time to mess around with this stuff?
0:50:51Like when I could just be using logic and getting the work done.
0:50:54And at a certain point,
0:50:56I do genuinely believe that there will be a tip and it will work, right?
0:51:01Like there will be a tipping point for this and I will be more willing to do it.
0:51:05I just think that like right now it's not so much.
0:51:09But as we move forward with later versions of iOS,
0:51:13which are hopefully gonna continue to push down
0:51:15this productivity line,
0:51:17and then later versions of the iPad Pro
0:51:19as it maybe gets stronger and more powerful,
0:51:21I believe that I will be more willing
0:51:24to give this stuff a try.
0:51:26- Myke, it feels like to me that you are where I was in 2010
0:51:31with the iPad, where it was like,
0:51:34oh, there's so much potential and possibility,
0:51:36But too much work and not enough time in which to experiment and not enough time to risk
0:51:44losing potential important things as a result of the experiment.
0:51:48You know, like I'm a happy user of my iPad for a lot of work tasks like email and show
0:51:57prep and research, but just not the main thing that makes my money, which is recording and
0:52:02editing podcasts.
0:52:03I'm just a little bit nervous of that right now.
0:52:09Should we start talking about the peripherals, the keyboard and the pencil?
0:52:13I think that's a good idea.
0:52:14Should we start crying about the peripherals?
0:52:15Is that more appropriate?
0:52:16Yeah, we'll get to that in just a moment.
0:52:18So this episode is brought to you by Fracture, the company that will take your favorite images
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0:52:28First off, just want to give a huge thank you from Fracture and from us as well for
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0:54:06pick a few to have on show. Thank you so much to Fracture for their support of
0:54:10this show and Relay FM. So Jason you are a lucky person. Yes. And I say this with
0:54:22gritted teeth because you have all of the peripherals and the pencils the one
0:54:26that I'm most interested in I have the smart keyboard in the pencil I don't
0:54:30have a logitech create which some people got although Ren's got it so we but
0:54:33among us we've got them covered and you have the smart keyboard too no you don't
0:54:38know yeah I only have the create and honestly I think I prefer I I would not
0:54:44have bought the smart keyboard had it been available in stores so where should
0:54:49we start here you want me to talk about the smart keyboard a little bit please
0:54:51- Yeah, it's a mixed bag to me, I would say.
0:54:56There are things I like about it
0:55:00and there are things I don't like about it.
0:55:01I actually think the typing feel is fine.
0:55:05I know that seems strange since I was critical
0:55:06of the MacBook keyboard, but on a thing this thin,
0:55:10I feel like maybe I'm just giving it
0:55:12the benefit of the doubt.
0:55:14For something this thin to have any typing feel at all
0:55:18is kind of miraculous, and it does.
0:55:19It has an okay feel.
0:55:22I was able to type, like I said,
0:55:23I wrote multiple articles on this smart keyboard last week,
0:55:28and it worked fine.
0:55:30I will say that I'm not a fan of the fact
0:55:34that it's missing a row of keys.
0:55:36That I really, let me back up.
0:55:41On my Mac, I have a keyboard with media control keys on it,
0:55:46play, pause, and things like that.
0:55:48I never use them.
0:55:49I never use them because I've actually got a third party app
0:55:53that remaps my keyboard shortcuts
0:55:55for turning my music on and off and stuff like that
0:55:57to keyboard shortcuts that I have been using
0:56:01since the days of the Apple CD player app in the 90s.
0:56:06And I still use those keyboard shortcuts.
0:56:08So I don't use the media keys,
0:56:09but I use the media keys when I'm using an iPad all the time
0:56:13because you don't have those other keyboard shortcuts.
0:56:15And it's really nice to be able to turn the volume
0:56:17and down to play or pause music and also, not media control, but to control the brightness
0:56:22of the screen.
0:56:23And I really like having those keys and they don't exist on the smart keyboard and it bugs
0:56:28me.
0:56:29It makes me sad.
0:56:30I wish it did.
0:56:31So that's a negative.
0:56:32I would say that it works really well as a keyboard you keep with you all the time and
0:56:39take it with you and that's the nice thing about it.
0:56:41But as a smart cover, I would have to say I think it's not very good.
0:56:47I found myself often just tearing it off in frustration
0:56:52because it was just, it's just too much in a lot of context
0:56:58because you don't need the keyboard,
0:56:59you're not going to need the keyboard,
0:57:00but you've got this keyboard cover
0:57:02that is a lot heavier and bulkier
0:57:04than a regular Smart Cover would be.
0:57:06And so I find myself wanting a regular Smart Cover
0:57:11and only using this cover when I absolutely know
0:57:15that I'm going to be unfolding it and using it as a keyboard
0:57:19because it's just a little, it's a, you know, it's a good,
0:57:23it's a good keyboard as a keyboard that's hidden in a cover,
0:57:27but it's not a good cover because it's too heavy and bulky.
0:57:33So it's a compromise.
0:57:34And if, you know, if you always want to have a keyboard
0:57:37with you and not tote it around, that part of it is good.
0:57:40But if you want to have a lighter kind of iPad experience,
0:57:44then you're gonna either pull it off
0:57:45or you're gonna wanna have a different item,
0:57:48a different accessory that is not this cover
0:57:51because it is, you know, it's bulky and heavy
0:57:53and I noticed and it wasn't particularly enjoyable to use,
0:57:56but it was great to have the keyboard there
0:57:57when I wanted it, so that's the trade-off.
0:58:00So basically, it's a little too much as a smart cover.
0:58:05So what I found myself really wanting was a smart cover,
0:58:09a regular smart cover and an external keyboard.
0:58:13and that whether it's something like the Create,
0:58:17even that you have to sort of snap it in
0:58:19to this like frame of almost like a laptop.
0:58:24I'm not sure even if that's what I want so much
0:58:26as just a stand for it or a smart cover
0:58:28that can be folded into a stand
0:58:30and a Bluetooth keyboard or something like that.
0:58:31So, you know, it works as a keyboard.
0:58:34It is, I think not, it does not work as a cover very well.
0:58:38It's really compromised and heavy and that doesn't work.
0:58:41And then the other thing I wanted to mention,
0:58:42which is not really about the fault of the smart keyboard
0:58:44'cause it's true of all these keyboards,
0:58:46which is iOS and external keyboards,
0:58:48autocorrect is still problematic.
0:58:51I was finding, I found at several points that I had,
0:58:55it was assuming I was going to type a capital letter,
0:59:00and I wasn't, but it gets into that mode
0:59:03on the software keyboard, it makes sense,
0:59:04where it's like, oh, we're shifted now,
0:59:06you wanna type a capital letter here.
0:59:08But I was on an external keyboard,
0:59:10and it was forcing me to type a capital letter
0:59:13and I couldn't get out of it.
0:59:14I had to like backspace and go back or,
0:59:17so that and a lot of really weird autocorrect
0:59:20that I've been experiencing.
0:59:21And as far as I can tell,
0:59:25you can't turn off autocorrect for everything
0:59:28on an external keyboard.
0:59:30You have to turn it off for everything period.
0:59:32And some apps will turn off autocorrect within,
0:59:35you let you turn it off for that app.
0:59:37But I realized I would really like a scenario
0:59:39where autocorrect is on when I'm using the software keyboard and completely off when
0:59:43I'm using a hardware keyboard, and I don't believe that's a feature that's offered.
0:59:46So I got really frustrated where I was writing -- I was typing articles and typing exactly
0:59:51the characters that I wanted to type, and they were all getting autocorrected into things
0:59:54that were wrong, and I ended up turning off autocorrect.
0:59:57But then when I would type on the software keyboard, I would get frustrated because I
1:00:00have all these expectations that if I don't type the apostrophe, it's just going to fix
1:00:04it because this is a known word and then it didn't fix them.
1:00:07So I had some issues with that where I feel like iOS needs to do, when I'm trying to treat
1:00:13this like a laptop, it ought to type it like it's on a laptop and it's overriding my typing
1:00:18a little too much.
1:00:19So that's my download on the smart keyboard.
1:00:21If you've got any questions, I'm happy to ask them.
1:00:23I am also curious about how the, you know, if friends got any more stories about the
1:00:28Create.
1:00:29>> In regards to the smart keyboard, Jason, do you think that you're maybe a little bit
1:00:33more forgiving of the keyboard because of the device?
1:00:37So you expect a better keyboard on a MacBook, so you're already down on that one, but on
1:00:42the iPad you're kind of going from glass to something.
1:00:45Yes, and the fact that it's a cover, right, so it's supposed to be ridiculously thin,
1:00:52and it's supposed to be a compromised thing.
1:00:54Whereas on a laptop, I kind of don't believe that it needed to be that thin, that it could
1:00:58have been a little bit thicker and a much better keyboard.
1:01:01So yes, some of this is just what direction I'm coming from, where the MacBook keyboard,
1:01:05I look at it and think, come on, you should have done a better keyboard. And from this
1:01:08direction I'm like, well, as a keyboard hidden in a cover goes, it's pretty good. So yeah,
1:01:15that's some of it. Definitely the context is part of it.
1:01:19Yeah, so on my end, I don't want a keyboard hidden in a cover. And I don't want to-- if
1:01:26I'm going to require myself a hardware keyboard, I want a proper hardware keyboard. And that's
1:01:35one of the reasons that an iPad has previously been untenable for me as a work machine is
1:01:40I want a good hardware keyboard. I'm not willing to sacrifice small weird keys or bad Bluetooth
1:01:46connections. It's just not been interesting to me. The Logitech is not perfect in that
1:01:52the case that surrounds it, that you hook the iPad into it is quite frankly, kind of
1:01:59ugly and very heavy and overall reminds me of the old iBook of 2001 and it adds an extra pound
1:02:08pound and a half to the iPad. So the iPad is now with the Logitech Create Keyboard, the iPad Pro
1:02:20128 becomes almost three pounds. So it's the same weight as the MacBook Air 13 inch, which I was
1:02:27initially like, "Are you kidding me?
1:02:29"That isn't the whole point of an iPad for it to be light?"
1:02:34So that part I really don't like.
1:02:36I kinda hope that Logitech comes out
1:02:38with a version of the Create
1:02:41that doesn't have all of this extra nonsense.
1:02:44That's just the keyboard and maybe a slight,
1:02:47a very thin prop up on the bottom.
1:02:50I'm guessing a lot of why the case is so heavy
1:02:56is to counterbalance the weight of the screen,
1:02:59because the Pro is a pretty hefty machine.
1:03:02The Pro is about a pound and a half on its own,
1:03:04so it's gonna start leaning backwards
1:03:07if it doesn't have a good counterweight.
1:03:09And I will say the Logitech's counterweight is excellent.
1:03:13I've never been in a position, like I've had it on a desk,
1:03:16I've had it on my lap in a car, I've had it on a train,
1:03:19I've had it just in bed, on a couch,
1:03:22and I've never felt like the iPad is gonna tip backwards
1:03:25and I'm not gonna be able to type properly on it,
1:03:28which is awesome.
1:03:29I also do like the fact that the Logitech,
1:03:31it's a hard base, it's I believe a plastic,
1:03:35a gold plastic base, and that adds some security
1:03:39to typing on it, so it doesn't feel,
1:03:41again, it doesn't feel flimsy, it doesn't feel fabric-y,
1:03:44and I like that, and the keys are awesome.
1:03:47The keys feel better than the new Magic Keyboard.
1:03:49They just, they travel well, they're comfortable to type on,
1:03:53you can type really hard or really soft
1:03:55depending on your key style and that top row is really,
1:03:59the top row is what absolutely sold me
1:04:02over the smart cover keyboard,
1:04:06because I just wasn't interested in a keyboard
1:04:10that didn't have shortcuts.
1:04:12And the backlighting is huge.
1:04:14I wasn't even thinking about backlighting for a keyboard,
1:04:18for an iPad keyboard.
1:04:19I just, it wasn't even in my mind.
1:04:20And then once I discovered that Logitech had it,
1:04:23I'm like, of course, why would you ever not have backlighting
1:04:28if you want a proper keyboard for your iPad?
1:04:32And the fact that the smart connector powers it
1:04:35means that all of that-- you don't have to worry about,
1:04:38oh, it's a Bluetooth keyboard, but it's only
1:04:40going to last seven hours because it's backlit.
1:04:43No, it leeches power smartly from the iPad.
1:04:47And that like, that is the biggest the biggest like, the biggest bit that has impressed me so far about the third party keyboard is just how little battery it drains overall from the iPad, and how smooth and simple it feels to switch between touch input and keyboard input or combination touch and keyboard input.
1:05:10I really like not having to, you know, the fact that I can just pop it, I'm popping it
1:05:15out of the case right now and then I lay it on top.
1:05:18And I don't even have to take it out of the case, I can just take it out of the smart
1:05:21connector and lay it on top of the keyboard.
1:05:24And the back of the Logitech case folds over so you've got a nice little, I don't know,
1:05:29fifteen degree incline just to use your, use the Pro as a tablet, as a straight tablet
1:05:35and you can pick that up too and it works pretty well.
1:05:40Overall, it just it feels really really the the keyboard is one of the best third-party keyboards
1:05:46I've ever used on an on an iPad and I have used a lot despite not liking very many of them
1:05:51The case is bulky the case is whatever. Yeah, but I I would recommend trying the the create
1:05:57I'm really hoping that they really eat some I just hope they release something that can be a little bit less of a
1:06:04Of a production
1:06:08to put on your iPad.
1:06:11- That is exactly what I was gonna say is,
1:06:14I feel like the ultimate keyboard for the iPad Pro
1:06:18is one that has that extra row of control keys
1:06:22that is backlit, although I know where the keys are,
1:06:25so I don't actually care about keyboard backlighting
1:06:26'cause I know where the keys are.
1:06:28I don't look at the keys ever, so I don't actually care.
1:06:31It's fun to have keyboard backlighting.
1:06:33It's like, yay, it's lighting up, but I kinda don't care.
1:06:36But the ultimate one is one where it's like a tray
1:06:39and you drop the iPad Pro onto it
1:06:43so it is gonna hold it up in a good angle.
1:06:46It's gonna click into the smart connector.
1:06:50And then when I'm done typing,
1:06:51then I lift it off and I go away.
1:06:54Because I feel like I'm not impressed
1:06:56with either of these products in terms of,
1:06:58well, it's also a case or you snap it in
1:07:02and it makes it more like a laptop.
1:07:03And I know some people that want that kind of experience,
1:07:06but my experience with the smart--
1:07:07- They want a pro.
1:07:09- Yeah, my experience with the smart keyboard is like,
1:07:10yeah, it's a crappy case.
1:07:12It's just a good, it's a good keyboard.
1:07:14And for a case that's got a keyboard in it, hey, great.
1:07:17But I wouldn't choose it just like if all I want is a case
1:07:20'cause it's too much, it's ungainly, it's just no good.
1:07:23And the create, I look at it and think,
1:07:24I don't wanna snap my brand new iPad Pro
1:07:26into this weird contraption
1:07:28just so that I can have a keyboard.
1:07:31So I feel like the ideal keyboard for the iPad Pro
1:07:36does not yet exist.
1:07:37And in fact, today, I would prefer to use
1:07:40the Apple Bluetooth keyboard or my Logitech Bluetooth
1:07:43keyboard and a regular smart cover or some other kind
1:07:47of thing that can be folded into a stand.
1:07:49That would be my preferred accessory today.
1:07:51Not either of these other keyboards.
1:07:54- See, I would agree with you if you already had
1:07:59those things lying around and you're just like, this is what I'm using until something
1:08:03better comes along. The smart connector is just so easy to use.
1:08:09Oh, it is. I'm just assuming that sort of everybody's got a Bluetooth keyboard kicking
1:08:13around somewhere that they can dig out and use for now. You're right. Not having to deal
1:08:19with the battery and not having to worry about Bluetooth pairing and just having it work
1:08:22is that product is out there, right? That product will happen. It's just not, I think,
1:08:28either of these. The great thing about the smart keyboard is the fact that you don't
1:08:32have to feel like you're lugging a keyboard with you everywhere, sort of, like it's
1:08:37because it's super thin and light, but you are lugging a keyboard with you. It is way
1:08:41heavier than if you take it off your iPad. So I don't know.
1:08:45Although you know, I was debating this, um, just in terms of the weight differential,
1:08:49cause I'm like three pounds, that's, you know, three pounds is half a pound heavier
1:08:53than my 11 inch MacBook Air.
1:08:55And I'm like, that kind of stinks.
1:08:57But looking at it on the flip side, I'm like, if I take my MacBook Air out someplace, there's
1:09:03a 90% chance that I'm taking its power cable out with me.
1:09:07And my MacBook Air's power cable, probably with the additional, with the extension attachment,
1:09:13I would guess is close to half a pound.
1:09:16I don't know for sure because I haven't weighed it, but I would be curious just how much that
1:09:21extra peripheral weighs me down.
1:09:25Because when I put this in the Logitech case
1:09:28in my laptop bag, and I carried it a variety of places
1:09:33over the weekend, it really didn't feel that much heavier,
1:09:37if at all, than my iPad, or than my MacBook Air.
1:09:41In fact, it felt about the same.
1:09:43So I'm curious if that's just, you know,
1:09:45maybe it's just I can't tell the difference in weight,
1:09:48or if the adapter really does make
1:09:50that much of a difference because that is one thing that the iPad has heads over shoulders
1:09:56against a laptop is that the battery life is supreme.
1:10:02I mean my iPad Air or my MacBook Air supposedly gets six or seven hours of battery life but
1:10:10really I can squeeze about three or four before I need a charge.
1:10:16iPad Pro, this is the first time I am charging it since I juiced it up to full Friday morning
1:10:23today, which is crazy to me. And it's not like it's just been sitting in a bag. I've been
1:10:29writing on it, I've been using Slack up and again. I've been editing photos in Pixelmator,
1:10:36I was working on workflows this morning. And the fact that it's at 5% battery right now, but
1:10:41I've been using it essentially for almost four days and the battery hasn't died yet.
1:10:47That's incredible to me.
1:10:48I have a desire for a keyboard, right?
1:10:53Especially if I want to like kind of replace my MacBook Pro with this in a lot of situations.
1:10:58I just haven't decided on the one that I want to get yet because I have one of those.
1:11:02I have a Logitech Bluetooth keyboard that I've used with previous iPads,
1:11:06which I'll probably continue to use for the time being.
1:11:10I think I'm leaning towards the Magic Keyboard because I'm not like as...
1:11:15I'm not really gonna be writing articles right? It's not what I do. I'm like
1:11:18responding to emails and tweeting. So I'm not too... I'm not too fussed with
1:11:23the key travel and because this is not really something that interests me so
1:11:26much. I need to try out the Magic Keyboard a little bit more in the store
1:11:30which I will do and kind of see how I feel about it. But I do like the idea of
1:11:33just something light and thin that just goes straight on there because of
1:11:36of my needs. I don't want to add all that weight on with the case like the Create when
1:11:41it's not really that important to me. So I want to try it out a little bit more. But
1:11:46it is all about that smart connector. That is just super secret sauce there. That is
1:11:51a genius move. The fact that you don't need to charge it anymore, right? That's the real
1:11:56awesome thing.
1:11:57>> We should also point out, because I know a bunch of people have asked about how the
1:12:00smart connector works, the smart connector itself is not magnetic. So the side of the
1:12:04iPads got magnets in it just like all the iPads since the two right have had
1:12:08have magnets in it so that you can align a line a cover on the side or anything
1:12:15else that has got the magnets that line up in that way but that's the magnetic
1:12:19attachment the actual three metal connectors of the smart connector don't
1:12:24have they're not magnetic they just touch and are held in place just for
1:12:28what it's worth that's how it works. But there is the elephant in the room yeah
1:12:33right now is the pencil. It's in the room with me. Please don't. So I think anybody that knows
1:12:41me and has listened to this show will know that I am dying to get one of these things as anybody
1:12:49that follows Ren would know the same right? Ren is like you know you are an artist right? I guess
1:12:55you would describe yourself as such that you like to draw and like and doodle and paint and that
1:13:00kind of stuff, I love to take handwritten notes. We are the perfect people, right, in two different
1:13:07worlds to have a pencil. However, we are. Apple believes that they just shouldn't stock them
1:13:13anywhere and this is the situation that we're in right now. For some reason, these things are
1:13:19impossible to get. The current shipping time's like four to five weeks and it got to four to
1:13:24five weeks after maybe like an hour or two of being on sale. And immediately when they were
1:13:29put on sale, correct me if I'm wrong, they never had like shipping this week. It was
1:13:33always like at least a week or two away. I have now tried in multiple Apple
1:13:38stores in London. Nobody has them and I was able to get through on the phone
1:13:43today to somebody who could actually check stock. So Apple have changed
1:13:47something recently with their support lines. We used to be able to call and
1:13:51you'd get through to the stores and you could ask them, "do you have X?"
1:13:54Yeah, but now it's going to the online store.
1:13:55Exactly. So I've tried a couple of times and they're like, "you can buy it online!"
1:13:59I'm like, "You are useless to me. You are useless."
1:14:01Yeah.
1:14:02But today, I got through to a lady on the phone
1:14:05and she actually checked stock.
1:14:07She checked stock in all of the major stores in London
1:14:12and there was not a pencil in any of them.
1:14:15Mmm.
1:14:16The thing that annoys me about this is
1:14:19this isn't a third-party product.
1:14:22This is Apple's product.
1:14:24and the pencil seems to be a pretty important part of the iPad Pro.
1:14:29And what it would appear to be right now is there are supply chain problems.
1:14:33Either it was never going to be ready or something's changed and it's not ready.
1:14:37And maybe in like three weeks time you won't be able to move for pencils in stores.
1:14:41So my thinking with this is why is the iPad Pro on sale now?
1:14:47Like could it have not just been held for a couple of weeks?
1:14:50Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving.
1:14:52I think it's getting, how seasonal is Apple, right?
1:14:56It's the quarter, you gotta get it out, right?
1:14:58Thanksgiving is coming too?
1:15:00- Yeah, I mean, Black Friday,
1:15:02as much as Apple doesn't actively participate
1:15:05in Black Friday beyond like a minor deal sheet,
1:15:09Black Friday still remains one of the biggest
1:15:11shopping holidays and the start of the shopping season
1:15:15for the year.
1:15:16And whatever your feelings on capitalism and consumerism
1:15:22and all of that, Apple is a business.
1:15:25And unfortunately, if you're selling a plus $1,000 product,
1:15:30you need to have it on sale in time for the holidays.
1:15:33That said, the Pencil--
1:15:36not having the Pencil ready to ship,
1:15:38or not having an announcement that the Pencil wouldn't
1:15:40be ready to ship the same time as the Pro--
1:15:43and let's remind ourselves, it's not just the Pencil,
1:15:46it's the keyboard too.
1:15:47So it's none-- the only accessory that's available
1:15:50launch day with the iPad Pro is the Logitech Create keyboard.
1:15:54And the smart cover, right?
1:15:56Well, I guess, and the cover, yes, exactly.
1:15:59Not the keyboard, but the top.
1:16:00The top of the iPad Pro is available if you want to cover its screen.
1:16:06Which is just insane to me, the fact that you're going to launch a flagship product
1:16:13That really depends on users being able to use it professionally.
1:16:21For me, that involves a hardware keyboard and it also involves a stylus.
1:16:26If I want to really seriously use this as an artist's tool, and there are a ton of reasons
1:16:30why this makes a great artist's tool, which we really didn't talk about at all in the
1:16:34podcast, but the fact that the pencil is so severely ship delayed, I'm actually shocked
1:16:42that there wasn't something from Tim about this, just to be like, you know, even when
1:16:49they were announcing the iPad Pro is going to be available this week, pencils will be
1:16:53available the first week of December or something like that.
1:16:56Like just setting expectations.
1:16:58Especially since he's been talking to every single news outlet in Europe for the last
1:17:03two weeks.
1:17:04Yeah.
1:17:05Setting expectations is crucial at this point, especially when you're launching a new product
1:17:11accessories that I don't want to say hinge the product's success or failure
1:17:16because the iPad Pro I have found lots to love about the iPad Pro and I don't
1:17:21need a pencil but I also have a Jot Dash and I have you know five other styluses
1:17:26and the the screen refresh rate makes it much better overall for drawing sure but
1:17:32is it anywhere near what the pencil could be? No. Is it infuriating to me that
1:17:37they don't even-- they have maybe two or three pencils set
1:17:40up on display at the Apple stores.
1:17:42They don't even have enough display units
1:17:45to really do proper demos, which is crazy to me.
1:17:49There's a line for pencil demos every time
1:17:51I come into the Apple store.
1:17:53And on the reporting side, or on the artistic side,
1:17:58it was interesting to me.
1:18:00The folks who have gotten review units and all of that,
1:18:03the majority, again, is tech press.
1:18:05But very, there are very few outlets that who are, you know, strong creatives or right for creatives who got a hand ahold of the pro and the pencil.
1:18:15And I look at that as just like, what Apple that's, what are you thinking to a certain extent? Like, I, if you want pros to buy your machine, you need to show them what it looks like in the hands of a pro.
1:18:32because I can, you know, Renee can draw pretty good Batmans and I doodle and I, you know, I,
1:18:38I do pretty, you know, I'm not a I'm not a professional artist, I have gotten paid for
1:18:44my artistic work, maybe three or four times in my life. And I it is really more of a hobby than
1:18:49a career for me. But I know a lot of people who are in the comics industry, who are in the video
1:18:56industry, who are graphics effects artists, people who are looking at this potentially as a huge game
1:19:02game changer in the field as their opportunity to get off Wacom or to convince people not,
1:19:08you know, to convince their firm, "Oh, I'm glad we held off on the surface because this
1:19:12is going to be a better fit for us."
1:19:14You know, you saw Apple showing Disney and showing Pixar these iPad Pros early on.
1:19:21You heard little rumors of it, but Pixar and Disney artists didn't really get a platform
1:19:27to say, "Oh, this is what I like about it and this is what's really great."
1:19:30gotten occasional tweets from like Dr. Wave. But there's no, there hasn't really been outside of
1:19:35like arts online, a big comprehensive piece from somebody in the graphics industry. I guess there's
1:19:42that piece on Vox too. There's like little bits and pieces here, but there's really no one being
1:19:48like, "I am an artist, and I can now use this in my day to day use. I can use AstroPad and a pencil
1:19:54to connect to my computer and draw natively in Photoshop with pressure sensitivity and palm
1:20:00rejection and it's awesome. Like that's the article or I can try this and it's
1:20:05not awesome. That's the article I've been waiting for and the article that I
1:20:09wanted to write if I had had a pencil. But it just it doesn't exist right now.
1:20:14You mentioned that thing from Vox. I'm gonna put a link in to a YouTube video
1:20:18of Vox designers review of the iPad Pro, especially the pencil. And it's really
1:20:23great because you get to see somebody's thinking who does this type of stuff for
1:20:27living and how the device works. But whilst that's good it still doesn't fix
1:20:31the issue of like that was Vox taking a chance because the Verge got review
1:20:36units. Like Apple haven't given these products to anybody who is coming at it
1:20:41from that perspective, at least that I've seen. And it's like that is you know I
1:20:45agree with you and it's so perplexing because I mean I've tried one in the
1:20:49store and people say oh there's no lag. There is. There is definitely lag.
1:20:55Well, in certain programs. Which programs did you try?
1:20:59Well, I mean, I even tried the Notes app. And when I say "Lagman," it's not one-to-one,
1:21:02right? But for somebody who maybe doesn't use a pen or a pencil very often, it does feel great,
1:21:09because it's the closest that there's ever been. But it's nothing like me taking notes right here
1:21:13with a pencil and paper. So my thinking with that is, there aren't people like yourself who have had
1:21:19the chance to try these things out, but it's not even so much to try out. I just want to buy one.
1:21:24I want to give you my money, Apple, in exchange for one of these things.
1:21:32It's crazy making to me.
1:21:34It's really dangerous that the pencils aren't connected to anything in the Apple store.
1:21:39I know.
1:21:40I'm not kidding.
1:21:41This is so bad.
1:21:42I was standing outside the store today, again, to see if I was waiting for them to open,
1:21:47and I thought to myself, "You could just take it, right?"
1:21:51It was just that one millisecond.
1:21:52second. I was like, you could just I was like, No, you won't. But you could. It's just the fact that
1:21:58this has entered both of our minds. And we are not what I would call even remotely criminally minded
1:22:03people. We're probably one of the you know, more of the goody two shoes variety. But uh, but yeah,
1:22:09it's, it's so frustrating. All I want to do is do stylus tests and then use it every day and make it
1:22:16my new baby. Because I have like the the time that I've played with it and with the apps that
1:22:22that I've played with it. It is very good. It's not perfect. It's not going to replace pen and paper. But will it replace a Wacom tablet? That is a definitive maybe. Like I need more hands on time. I need probably a week and a half, maybe two weeks, doing dedicated work to say definitively, "Yes, this could replace your Cintiq."
1:22:49But I am really potentially excited about that prospect and comparing it against a surface.
1:22:57We got a very brief video from Mashable in doing that.
1:23:01But like, I don't know, there are just there are so many things that I would have liked to see day one from the pencil that I just haven't seen.
1:23:10And from Apple just being like, yo, how how hard is it to say?
1:23:16Even in bureaucratic speak, our shipments were delayed.
1:23:20So iPad Pro available Wednesday,
1:23:23pencils and smart keyboard available in December,
1:23:28in early December, there you go.
1:23:30Now you've set your expectations.
1:23:32Instead it's just like, pick up unavailable.
1:23:35These are not the styluses that you're looking for.
1:23:38Oh, there are three or four arriving in random stores
1:23:41across New England, but good luck
1:23:43'cause you can't reserve any of them.
1:23:45So you just have to pray that you're lining up at the right one and pray that no one's
1:23:50decided to line up before you.
1:23:52I am literally going to camp out in front of Providence's store this week.
1:23:56I'm going there every single morning to ask if they have pencils.
1:24:00And it is, I'm like, how have I been reduced to like 11-year-old buying Star Wars tickets
1:24:06to get a $99 accessory that yes, I want to use, but also I just want to review.
1:24:13I just want to give people more information about it so that they know if it's even worth
1:24:17their while.
1:24:18It is insane to me and it just makes me so mad.
1:24:23I've been reviewing styluses for five years.
1:24:27You know what makes a good stylist and a bad stylist pretty quickly.
1:24:33I think it's an interesting supply chain question that if you don't have enough to fulfill demand,
1:24:40Do you hold off and say it's not available until you've got enough to fulfill at least
1:24:45some of the demand, or do you just make all your customers play this game?
1:24:49And I think it's a good question that they made the decision that they would let the
1:24:54styluses trickle out there instead, the pencil and even the keyboards, let that stuff trickle
1:24:59out there.
1:25:00And that would be the other way to go.
1:25:02You're absolutely right, is to say available December and then the reviewers would have
1:25:06them or whatever, but you wouldn't have to play the game where you're waiting in front
1:25:10of a store or calling a bunch of Apple stores in your region and saying, "Do you have a
1:25:14pencil? Can you hold it for me? You can't hold it. How fast can I drive?" That kind
1:25:18of thing. Because that's not a fun--for most people, that's not a fun game. I'm sure somebody
1:25:22finds that fun to race around like that and have a scavenger hunt for an Apple pencil.
1:25:27But I think, you know, does Apple think that that's the best experience or would it be
1:25:30better for them to say, "Look, you're just not going to be able to get one until December
1:25:34first, at which point they'll be available.
1:25:38Or we're only going to sell these online right now because we don't have enough and we need
1:25:41to control what the demand is and we'll put you on a waiting list.
1:25:44But instead it's this kind of old-fashioned game from before we had instant gratification
1:25:51on the internet.
1:25:52You just have to go to the store and hope.
1:25:54It's Furbies all over again.
1:25:56Yeah, that's right, Cabbage Patch Kids with their pencils instead.
1:26:00I just don't get it.
1:26:01I mean, the pencil is clearly a hot item.
1:26:03was going to be a hot item. Yeah, well I've heard from people who said, you know, this
1:26:08is, it's in the ads, like this is the reason you get an iPad Pro and then you get in the
1:26:11store and you can buy your iPad Pro but you can't get the pencil. It is perplexing, yeah.
1:26:17But unfortunately for me and Wren, Jason does have one. In so much as Jason has been sending
1:26:22me little pictures all week whenever I talk about them. Little guilt-tripping pictures,
1:26:26yeah. So Jason, we are interested to know what your thoughts are, but you want to thank
1:26:31Stamps.com and then we'll talk about your feelings about the Apple Pencil.
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1:28:23So you do have an Apple Pencil, Jason?
1:28:26I do. I do. The person who doesn't like pens and can't draw and does not have readable
1:28:32handwriting is the person here that has the Apple Pencil. And if I had a portal, if I
1:28:36had a transport device that would magically send... Unfortunately, Stamps.com will not
1:28:41do this.
1:28:42We asked them. They do not have a portal system.
1:28:45I have to use the mail.
1:28:46They do not yet have the teleportation technology
1:28:48available.
1:28:50I would pass it off to one of you in a heartbeat,
1:28:52because I would love to see what you think of it.
1:28:55As for me, as a savage, I have been trying it out
1:29:01and sending you drawings, mostly pictures of you being
1:29:04sad that you don't have one.
1:29:06And I'm not really that sorry about that.
1:29:08It seemed only fitting.
1:29:10I did do a whole thing while you guys were talking
1:29:13about the supply chain and how angry you were
1:29:15and said that to you.
1:29:17And it's in the chat room too.
1:29:20Little notes, notes I'm making.
1:29:23Also drawings of you being sad.
1:29:24- Thanks.
1:29:26- It's slippery.
1:29:27It's completely perfectly around.
1:29:31It's not like those pencils that have, you know,
1:29:35the little, they're actually like,
1:29:37I don't know whether they're like a hexagon
1:29:39or something like that, but they've got the little kind of
1:29:41like a series of flat ridges.
1:29:43Instead, it's completely smooth and circular,
1:29:46which I find that that makes it actually
1:29:48a little bit slippery.
1:29:49But, and famously, you know, it's weighted
1:29:53so that it will actually stop.
1:29:54And the little pencil name on the silver band
1:29:58that's up by the, what would be an eraser,
1:30:02but it's the cap that you take off in order to charge it.
1:30:05Show says Apple pencil comes up right there.
1:30:09super easy to use, plug it in, it does a pairing.
1:30:12The battery lasts a long time
1:30:16and then you can charge it quickly.
1:30:17It comes with a little lightning cable extension
1:30:21so you don't have to plug it in directly to the iPad
1:30:23and make that little sign that you can't hold up
1:30:26that says I've got an Apple Pencil.
1:30:28What are your questions about it?
1:30:31And then I will be unable to answer them
1:30:34because I don't know anything about pencils.
1:30:39It just makes me sad.
1:30:41I mean, I don't really know if I have questions
1:30:43for you specifically, right?
1:30:45Because a lot of the things that interest me the most,
1:30:48I think I maybe have a potential answer to them,
1:30:50but I need to know myself.
1:30:52Like one of the big things that I was interested in is,
1:30:55is this going to be like writing on a piece of paper
1:30:57in so much as I can write really, really small?
1:31:01And I've tested this out,
1:31:02and I now know that this is possible.
1:31:05I know, Ren, you'll agree with me, I'm sure,
1:31:06that there hasn't really been a product
1:31:09that has been great for handwriting so far.
1:31:12- No.
1:31:13- That they all kind of--
1:31:14- JotDash and Jot, yeah.
1:31:15The Jot series have probably come the closest,
1:31:18but still not great.
1:31:20- Because it always ends up that what you're writing
1:31:23is way bigger than what you intend it to be.
1:31:26- I have done some of that.
1:31:28I actually did some of it in Evernote,
1:31:31and I took some fake notes as a test,
1:31:36But I did that where I held it like in portrait orientation
1:31:41and took a page of notes as if I was taking notes
1:31:47in a class or something.
1:31:48And it felt perfectly natural to me.
1:31:52It felt like I was taking notes in my notebook
1:31:55in a college class.
1:31:57And the nice thing about OneNote, did I say Evernote?
1:32:02I used OneNote, I used Microsoft OneNote.
1:32:05- Okay, Microsoft OneNote, okay.
1:32:06- And it's got the, you can have it, yeah,
1:32:10look like different pieces of paper.
1:32:12If you really wanna have the college rule lined
1:32:14or a graph paper, you can do that.
1:32:16But it has an OCR, handwriting recognition,
1:32:19basically, feature.
1:32:21And I thought that would be interesting to see
1:32:23if it could even attempt to read my handwriting
1:32:26because my handwriting is so terrible.
1:32:27And it totally worked.
1:32:28I was able to do searches for words that I'd put
1:32:31in my note, in OneNote.
1:32:34and it was able to come up with that document
1:32:37and the exact place on the page where I wrote that word.
1:32:40So I was impressed by that
1:32:41just because my handwriting is terrible.
1:32:44And yes, there are some,
1:32:46it's smart where if it can't figure out what the word is,
1:32:49it thinks it might be five different things,
1:32:50it puts all five of those things in the index.
1:32:53(laughs)
1:32:54And so if you search on any of them, you will find it.
1:32:57But yeah, so as a writing implement,
1:33:01It totally felt to me as a layman
1:33:05that I was experiencing the same experiences
1:33:10if I was writing with a pen on paper or a pencil on paper.
1:33:14And then I try to draw stick figures
1:33:16and I'm very good at drawing stick figures and nothing else.
1:33:19And yeah, I don't get any of the lag.
1:33:23Even when I'm erasing, I put in the erase mode
1:33:26and I'm very quickly moving over something
1:33:28'cause I wanna erase it.
1:33:29You don't get that thing where you go swish, swish, swish with a pen and then stop and watch
1:33:34as the swish, swish, swish happens, right?
1:33:36It's a little bit behind, but very close.
1:33:38And if you're writing at the speed at which I'm writing words with a pencil on the screen,
1:33:44my handwriting speed, it's essentially lagless to me, I would say.
1:33:52At that rate, I never get that disconnect.
1:33:55I think it's a little bit like when you're watching a movie
1:33:58and if the speaker delay is off by a little bit,
1:34:01there's like your brain patches it all together,
1:34:03but beyond a certain point, it kind of breaks
1:34:05and you lose the illusion and now it's just out of sync.
1:34:08I think that maybe there's something like that
1:34:09for lag with a pen.
1:34:11And in most cases, I didn't feel it.
1:34:14Like if I looked really closely,
1:34:16I could tell that it was actually a little bit behind,
1:34:19but when regularly using it,
1:34:22I felt like the illusion was there
1:34:23that I was putting ink on paper.
1:34:25- Rann, I wanted to know from you,
1:34:27'cause I know that, you know,
1:34:28I'm sure you have some experience with things
1:34:31like the Wacom Cintiqs and stuff like that.
1:34:33What is the type of lag in those sort of devices?
1:34:36- So the Cintiq does have a bit of lag,
1:34:41as does the Intuos, which of course the Intuos,
1:34:45you're not even drawing on the direct screen.
1:34:48You're drawing on essentially a tablet with no screen,
1:34:51and then you have to look up at the screen as you're drawing.
1:34:56The Cintiq's lag, at least the most recent Cintiq
1:34:59that I've used, is probably under 100 milliseconds.
1:35:03It's not where you have a line trailing behind your pencil,
1:35:07where it's a very minor sort of thing.
1:35:13The Apple Pencil, to me, is fairly consistent with that,
1:35:19is to say that when you make a line and when you make very quick lines in succession, you
1:35:27are seeing the lines as you make them. In some cases, you're seeing the prediction of
1:35:32the line, which I think is very strange, but cool technology from Apple to sort of course
1:35:38correct if you think you've accidentally made a jitter in your drawing. But overall, I think
1:35:48we're looking at something that's very, very similar latency. The issue in the
1:35:53past, why latency is such a big deal, especially on the iPad, is that previous
1:35:59styluses, first of all the iPad screen refresh rates have been much, much lower
1:36:05than this current. The iPad Pro has 240 Hertz refresh rate, which means that
1:36:10you're seeing more and more pixels come up as you draw. Previous
1:36:16generation's iPads and iPhones had much much lower which made it much harder to
1:36:21catch up to what the peripherals were doing. You also had to deal with the fact
1:36:26that initially styluses were pretending to be fingers and so they were fat and
1:36:31imprecise and the first iPads had basically touch sensitive grids that
1:36:37were designed for fat fingers. So when people started using them to draw and
1:36:41started saying "oh we'll make styluses" it was very hard to create pinpoint
1:36:46accuracy with a fat stylus, with a rubber nib stylus, because you were essentially hitting like a
1:36:53one by one grid in terms of finding out, "Oh, my finger/stylus is in this part of the screen." And
1:37:03to try and hit that grid multiple times or pieces of that grid was almost impossible. When Zoom came
1:37:10into effect, when apps started adding in zooming, it became a little bit easier because then you
1:37:15could essentially that one by one grid, you could enlarge and actually address the individual
1:37:23pieces of the drawing. And it's gotten to the point where pairing with Bluetooth, you've
1:37:30been able third party stylus makers have been able to simulate low latency by basically
1:37:37using the Bluetooth connection and specific API's within apps and simulate pinpoint accuracy.
1:37:45But ultimately, that's what they are.
1:37:47They're simulations.
1:37:48And because they have to simulate something that the OS could be doing naturally, there's
1:37:53going to be inherent lag built in that.
1:37:56You look at any of the Bluetooth capable styluses, including Adonit's own Jot Touch, including
1:38:0410.1's stylus, including the 53 Pencil, all of them have much better pinpoint accuracy
1:38:11than they have in the past, but the lag is painful, especially in paper. This is can
1:38:17be very, very painful because of the processing that they're doing simultaneous processing
1:38:23to make sure that what you're entering on the screen with a physical device ends up
1:38:29being represented appropriately on the page. So my hope has always been Apple makes a device
1:38:36that actually communicates with the iPad natively,
1:38:41rather than having to go through all of these backdoor
1:38:44weird APIs put on top of basically addressing iPad flaws.
1:38:49Now the former flaws that were preventing the iPad
1:38:52from being great have been reconfigured
1:38:56to work with a stylus.
1:38:58And with the Pencil, with my very limited time with it,
1:39:03I can see a major difference in how writing with a pencil feels and sketching with a pencil
1:39:08feels over every other stylus because it is built naturally.
1:39:14It's like the closest bit I can compare it to is almost like natural scrolling and scrolling
1:39:25with adaptive movement where you see adaptive movement scrolling on an iOS device or on
1:39:32on a Mac, and it just feels seamless, right? It just it feels comfortable if it makes sense.
1:39:38And then you see a web app try and do adaptive scrolling, or you see Windows try and do adaptive
1:39:43scrolling, Android try and do adaptive scrolling. And you can just it just doesn't feel the
1:39:49same, right? There's a there's a different, there's a different interactivity there, it
1:39:53just doesn't bounce the way that you want it to. And that's, to me, that's the difference
1:39:57between having a native tool versus having a third party tool, is it just it instinctually
1:40:01it feels more stilted.
1:40:04- So I've been taking notes on my iPad
1:40:08as you've been talking, and I wanted to add OneNote,
1:40:12which is about OneNote.
1:40:16What Apple's doing with the Notes app is very impressive,
1:40:20and the Notes app shows very little lag.
1:40:23When I switch to something like paper,
1:40:25or when I switch to OneNote, and I'm taking notes
1:40:27in my reporter style where I'm summarizing conversation
1:40:31and doing some verbatim quotes and the things that I do if I'm interviewing somebody, these
1:40:35are the skills that I learned when I would interview people for stories with a notepad
1:40:39and paper, right? In notes, it is the illusion is perfect. In one note and paper, the illusion
1:40:47is not perfect. There is much more lag. And I don't know whether that's just that they
1:40:51need to be updated to take advantage of this particular input device or not. I assume so
1:40:57because Notes can do it perfectly.
1:41:01- It's the difference between something
1:41:03that was built in-house.
1:41:04They've had how long to work with the pencil.
1:41:06- In fact, when you tap on the stylus dropdown in OneNote,
1:41:10it lets you pick pencil by 53 or other stylus.
1:41:14So clearly OneNote doesn't really know
1:41:17about the Apple Pencil.
1:41:18Maybe they can't buy one.
1:41:19Maybe there aren't any at the Bellevue Apple Store
1:41:21or the University Avenue Apple Store in Seattle.
1:41:26So my understanding is that there are new APIs that can make this stuff better, right?
1:41:33Yes and no.
1:41:35So I haven't really dug into them myself because a lot of it's over my head.
1:41:41What I will say is the increased refresh rate is good for all of the pens because, again,
1:41:47it just means that what you're drawing, it shows up faster, which is great.
1:41:53And you're still going to have that, you're still going to have the latency between the
1:41:56connection.
1:41:58So any Bluetooth styluses are still going to have that sort of hiccup because they have
1:42:01to talk to the device over Bluetooth.
1:42:07The stylus that I've actually been enjoying most on the iPad Pro is the JotDash, is Adonit's
1:42:11JotDash because it's not Bluetooth connected.
1:42:14It just has a small USB charged battery in it and it doesn't work as a stylus when it's
1:42:23off.
1:42:25It just doesn't.
1:42:26It's a dead device.
1:42:28But if you tap the bottom like you would a pen click, you can just tap it to turn on
1:42:36and then it works just as a regular stylus except that it has a 2mm or I guess 1.9mm
1:42:44Pixel point tip so it's designed to take advantage of the iPad's smaller grids and
1:42:50Retina size grids now that the iPad is so gigantic and it's designed to take advantage of the refresh rate
1:42:56By sort of future-proofing itself by saying well, we've developed this technology and it doesn't require
1:43:03APIs and it doesn't require special things. We're just we're banking that Apple's hardware technology is going to get better and
1:43:12were developing a pen that can hypothetically work well with that and it works decently with the iPad Air 2.
1:43:17It works very well with the 6s Plus and it works
1:43:21close but not identically to the pencil in Notes. That
1:43:27drawing that I sent earlier to the Relay Channel was done with a JotDash and I'm like, well, you know,
1:43:34it's you know, you can still do quite impressive things
1:43:39In the notes app and in other apps with these other styluses the difference is of course
1:43:45You've got lack of palm rejection. You've got
1:43:49lack of first-party integration
1:43:52But the third I mean, I don't think the I don't think it's doom and gloom for third-party stylus makers
1:43:58I think that there are still things that they can position themselves to do
1:44:03For one thing not everybody is gonna want to buy a hundred dollar pencil
1:44:07And right now people having you know offering themselves as like the jot dashes like the $50 equivalent of the Apple Pencil
1:44:16There are styluses that you can buy for nine or ten dollars if you just want a really really inaccurate
1:44:22basis device for sketching or writing
1:44:26So there are I think there are still avenues that Apple hasn't covered here
1:44:31And I do think that the improvements that they've made in the iPad Pro
1:44:35Can be taken advantage of by stylus makers just depends on how they'll adapt their apps to deal with it
1:44:41And we'll just keep
1:44:43Fingers crossed that we will have them sometime within the next couple of weeks
1:44:48Keep watching the skies and stocking the stores, I guess is what I would say. Yeah, if nothing else. I'm just going to
1:44:54I'm going to book a
1:44:56Hypothetical genius appointment that I'm never going to show up for but I'm gonna check in for it and then spend the next 45 minutes
1:45:04writing my pencil review because I just I feel like there's there's no better way.
1:45:10It's no better way. Do we have anything more that we wanted to cover today on
1:45:16this? No I think we I think we've done it. So I think we're gonna skip Ask Upgrade
1:45:20this week. We'll come back with a bumper Ask Upgrade next week. Along with a mic
1:45:24at the movies. Don't forget if you want to watch along with the Sure Thing 1985
1:45:30Cusack hit for next week's episode of Upgrade. Ren, thank you so much for joining
1:45:36us. It's been an absolute pleasure and you've provided a lot of great color on
1:45:39all of this stuff from a perspective that me or Jason wouldn't have had, so
1:45:42thank you so much for joining us. Absolutely, thank you for having me and
1:45:46hi, for your sake and mine I hope pencils show up in store soon. Yeah, yeah I had
1:45:53really hoped that you would get one in time for this episode and but it was
1:45:56interesting that you didn't so yeah thank you for being here. I tried, we both tried.
1:46:00We both really tried.
1:46:01We tried so hard.
1:46:02I know.
1:46:03Every single day.
1:46:05Every single day.
1:46:06I'm going back to the office tour right now.
1:46:07Gwen, where can people keep up with you online and see what you're working on?
1:46:10I am on Twitter and Instagram at @settern, S-E-T-T-E-R-N, and I am writing a whole ton
1:46:17of iPad Pro coverage over on iMore.com right now.
1:46:20I'm doing my week with iPad Pro experiment.
1:46:23So day three, coming soon to a iMore.com near you.
1:46:29If you want to catch up with Jason's work online you can head on over to SixColors.com
1:46:33and he is @JSnell on Twitter, JSNELL and I am @IMyke.
1:46:40Thank you so much again to our sponsors this week, Stamps.com, Fracture and Lynda.com and
1:46:45thank you for listening.
1:46:46Until next time, say goodbye everybody.
1:46:48Goodbye.
1:46:49Goodbye.
1:46:50Goodbye.
1:46:50Bye!
1:46:51[ Music ]