59: You Need Faster Fingers

0:00:00[Music]

0:00:08from relay FM this is upgrade episode number 59 today's show is brought to you

0:00:14by our friends over at lynda.com stamps.com go to meeting and pdf pen 7

0:00:20from smile my name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined by Mr Jason Snell

0:00:24Jason we will see each other in just a matter of days

0:00:28It's just a few days away now. In just over, I would say probably in about, not 48 hours, but

0:00:3558 hours we will be in the same place. We sure will. We're both going to be at the

0:00:40Release Notes conference. We're not going to be recording upgrade live this time,

0:00:43but I think we are going to be doing clockwise maybe? Right, clockwise. We'll do a clockwise

0:00:48episode live from Release Notes probably Thursday since you're giving the keynote on Wednesday and

0:00:53your mind will be blown maybe Thursday, but we will do a live clockwise, but not a live

0:00:58upgrade this time. We'll be back here in, I think next Tuesday will be late by day because

0:01:04of travel, but I think we'll be back here next week in our respective chairs.

0:01:08- Yeah, but yeah, it's gonna be nice to go to the Reesenotes and I'm looking forward

0:01:13to speaking.

0:01:14- I'm going because it sounds like a good conference and I'm somebody who's got an independent

0:01:18business now, so I'm actually interested in the business focus of that conference, but

0:01:21I'm also going because the list of people who will be there including you

0:01:24and Steven it's like a little impromptu relay meetup and that's it's nice to

0:01:29see you guys in person so yeah we have fun yeah and and in fact one of our

0:01:34listeners will be there too I know who's attending our friend from Cincinnati who

0:01:39plays golf so I'm looking forward to some some listener meets that's kind of

0:01:43awesome yeah I'm looking forward to it that I believe there's quite a few

0:01:47listen is it gonna be this that's gonna be fun cool we should just follow up

0:01:50Christian wrote in so last week we were talking about the speed of touch ID a

0:01:55little bit and how it feels a bit more it just feels better to use it's faster

0:02:00to use that kind of thing Christian wrote and he's a runner and actually

0:02:04he's found that even after post run when he's all sweaty and he has sweaty hands

0:02:08and fingers touch ID too is working for him which I thought was really

0:02:13interesting and I wanted to see if you had any thoughts like do you think that

0:02:17Apple have any of these use cases in mind when they do this kind of stuff?

0:02:23Yeah probably I mean they certainly are aware that what the wet finger thing was

0:02:28a problem right because there's nothing worse than having the slightly you know

0:02:30slightly damp finger and you can't unlock your phone so I'm sure that was

0:02:34something that they were thinking about I don't know whether they tried to solve

0:02:37the wet finger problem or whether they were just saying we can make this thing

0:02:41read better and faster and we've learned a lot in the last year of building Touch

0:02:45ID and we can do a better job than the next time but I I can't if you're in

0:02:51charge of Touch ID how can one of the things on your list not be the the the

0:02:56wet finger problem it's got to be mm-hmm and also you know like the exercise

0:03:01thing in general like the sweat side is interesting because of how much Apple

0:03:05like push on the exercise and stuff now the Apple watch is around you know right

0:03:09It's good that it works.

0:03:11- So one of the things that we also got feedback,

0:03:15we were talking about how do you do Apple Pay?

0:03:17If it reads your finger too fast.

0:03:21And lots of people wrote in to say, it's very simple.

0:03:24You put your finger on the home button,

0:03:26but don't push it in.

0:03:28And then with your finger on the home button,

0:03:30you double click the home button and Apple Pay slides out

0:03:33and you use Apple Pay.

0:03:34So that's the gesture there is,

0:03:36You know, if you, if you put your finger on and press down, um, it's going to

0:03:41unlock, but if you put your finger on and then go tap, tap it, uh, it goes to Apple

0:03:47pay.

0:03:47So good tip pro tip there.

0:03:49Yeah, definitely.

0:03:51Um, I still find it ends up unlocking the phone for me, but, uh, but yeah,

0:03:57I don't know what I'm doing.

0:04:00It works for me.

0:04:00I think you need to be faster.

0:04:01I mean, you need faster fingers to do that, but if you, if you just rested on

0:04:05and then go doot doot. Totally works for me anyway.

0:04:09Well there you go.

0:04:10Uh, obviously we spoke about the magic devices last week, um, and I wanted to just address a

0:04:16little bit more of that now that obviously we know more information. I know more information

0:04:20about them anyway, and I don't, because I don't think we really spoke about the pricing. I don't

0:04:24know if you knew what the pricing was going to be?

0:04:28Uh, yeah, so I...

0:04:30Let's see, I think I knew, but I didn't,

0:04:35it wasn't on the spec sheet

0:04:36and they mentioned it in the briefing

0:04:38and I wasn't 100% sure that it was,

0:04:41what I had down was right,

0:04:42so I just decided to wait until they released them

0:04:45and then could mention at that point what they cost.

0:04:49So when we talked, I didn't wanna say it and get it wrong.

0:04:52- Yeah, so it turns out that--

0:04:56- Oh yeah.

0:04:56Magic Mouse 2 is $79, the Magic Keyboard 2 is $99, and the Magic Trackpad is $129, which

0:05:06is expensive.

0:05:08Yeah.

0:05:10That's really expensive.

0:05:11The Trackpad is super expensive.

0:05:13And it makes me think, if that's how much it costs, or if that's how much it costs and

0:05:18you need those margins, should you do it?

0:05:23Well, I mean, if you're Apple, here's the thing, they're going to include this in their

0:05:30existing devices, so like the iMac, but, you know, the Mac Pro comes with input devices

0:05:37too, so it's going to be the thing that's included with iMacs, basically, and if you

0:05:41want to buy it as a separate thing, yeah, they're going to charge you a lot for it.

0:05:45There are other options. I think that this is Apple being Apple and saying, "You want

0:05:50something cheaper? Go buy something cheaper." This is the, you know, we don't make the

0:05:53cheaper thing, we make the top-of-the-line thing. And I understand that. I think these

0:06:00prices are a little surprising. At the same time, a lot of people are going to buy the

0:06:05Magic Trackpad 2 even at $129. So that's the story of Apple, right? You look at the prices

0:06:13and you're like, "Wow, it's good, but it's also a little bit pricey," and then they sell

0:06:18a lot of them. So I'm a little surprised. I think there's a lot of tech in that trackpad

0:06:22especially, the $99 keyboard.

0:06:24You know, there are a lot of keyboards that are expensive.

0:06:27That doesn't seem too unreasonable.

0:06:30And if there's a big glass trackpad out there

0:06:33that costs a lot less than that, I'd like to know about it.

0:06:37I suspect that, you know, this is a high price,

0:06:42but for the tech, not an unreasonable price.

0:06:46And nobody's making you buy it.

0:06:48I mean, I think that's the thing,

0:06:49is that if this was a must have,

0:06:50but then it would be different.

0:06:52But it's, you know, if you want the full on

0:06:54Apple glass trackpad experience on a system like a,

0:06:57you know, like an iMac, this is what it costs.

0:07:01And if you'd rather just have a mouse or a trackpad

0:07:04or something, or a trackball or whatever,

0:07:06you can just buy that from a third party if you want to,

0:07:08if you're not satisfied with the prices that Apple provides.

0:07:12So it is interesting there, you know.

0:07:15Sometimes Apple makes products

0:07:16that are a little aspirational.

0:07:17They're higher tech than all the other products

0:07:20out there on the market and that's purposeful but they're also higher priced and that's

0:07:23definitely happening here.

0:07:26And then of course we have the charging port on the bottom of the mouse, right? So when

0:07:29you're charging it makes it unusable and a lot of people have been very upset about that

0:07:33this week, citing it as a sign of poor Apple design, the death of Johnny Olive and the

0:07:43upsetting of Steve Jobs' ghost. What do you think about this?

0:07:46I don't know. I mean, I'm glad that I, my interest in mice is so low that I made the

0:07:54tactical decision of reviewing quote unquote the mouse in my, as a footnote in my trackpad

0:07:59review where I said, yep, there's a mouse because I just kind of don't care about mice.

0:08:05I don't understand them. The fact that it doesn't, it doesn't have pressure sensitivity.

0:08:08so he doesn't do Force Touch. You know, what's new about it? There's a whole lavish article

0:08:19on Medium by Steven Levy about the amazing design decisions that went into making this

0:08:24mouse and they changed the material of the feet and all this stuff and is it clicky enough

0:08:31and things like that and that's, you know, it's fine. It doesn't interest me at all.

0:08:35But it is a little fascinating that for whatever reason they just decided it was okay to put

0:08:41the charger on the bottom and not try to engineer it for the to put the charger on the back

0:08:46so that you could use it wired.

0:08:47And I think it's a fair point to say that the other devices are engineered so that you

0:08:54can use them while they're charging but the mouse isn't and why is that?

0:08:57And there probably was a trade-off that they in the design process I'm sure that they had

0:09:03this argument.

0:09:04people who suggest that Apple doesn't consider all this stuff, which happens

0:09:10all the time on the internet, that it's foolish, of course they considered it

0:09:15and there was obviously an argument about it and I think at some point what

0:09:18happened was somebody said, "look the chances that people need to use this

0:09:23wired are almost zero, nobody needs to use this mouse wired and by moving it

0:09:30here we get this other thing in our design. It makes this is the thing that's

0:09:36keeping it from being clicky. This is the thing that's keeping it from

0:09:40being lighter or whatever they prioritized and we can say you can very

0:09:44much argue maybe that's the wrong priority but I'm sure that was the

0:09:47argument and then the third part of the argument was probably if you look if you

0:09:51plug this in for 30 seconds you can use it for until lunchtime so it's not that

0:09:55big a deal.

0:09:56You're not gonna stop doing your job because your mouse

0:09:59ran out of battery, and we're going to have software to give you a warning saying you

0:10:03should charge it tonight because it'll run out of battery tomorrow, and that's good enough.

0:10:08And so that argument about putting it on the back and redesigning all of the other hardware

0:10:15of the mouse around it so that they could charge it on the back rather than having kind

0:10:19of a, you know, the whole thing on the back kind of floating as part of the mouse, that

0:10:24the day, obviously. And the fact is that if they had engineered it the other way, people

0:10:31might have said, "This is too big," or "It doesn't click well," or whatever. But we'll

0:10:38never know. But I'm sure they had that argument internally. And this is the result, which

0:10:41is, yeah, you can't use it when it's plugged in because the plugin's on the bottom, and

0:10:46it does fast charge. So if you plug it in for a minute, you can use it the rest of the

0:10:49day, basically, and then charge it overnight.

0:10:51And I guess that makes sense, right? Like, you know, the fast charging thing, it's like,

0:10:56well, there's your trade-off. Like, you know, it's like the idea of, we want to hide the

0:11:00lightning bolt, we want to put it down here, okay, what can we do? Well, we can do this,

0:11:04fine, that's a balance. Like, that's how I imagine that kind of, that design went through.

0:11:08Yeah, yeah, I mean, you have to, there are trade-offs, right? And if you think about

0:11:13the way that the mouse is designed, I don't feel like there's a really obvious thing at

0:11:20the head of that mouse at the top of that mouse where,

0:11:23well, why didn't they just put it right here?

0:11:26I mean, it would have been a very different hardware design

0:11:28if they'd put it there.

0:11:29And at some point they decided

0:11:31it just wasn't worth the trade-offs

0:11:33that they were willing to make to put it there

0:11:35for something that there's a very narrow use.

0:11:38And basically they're saying,

0:11:39look, if you want a wired mouse, go buy a wired mouse.

0:11:42We're not making it.

0:11:44And then secondarily, if you are worried about charging it,

0:11:49don't be because you're gonna get a battery warning

0:11:51like three days before it runs out of battery

0:11:53and you need to charge it for 30 seconds

0:11:56in order to use it until your lunch break

0:11:57or until you go home.

0:11:59And I think those are perfectly fine arguments.

0:12:03I don't think it's a requirement

0:12:05that you be able to plug in a mouse

0:12:07and use it simultaneously,

0:12:09but I see the point that Apple opens themselves up

0:12:12for this sort of criticism.

0:12:14I see it.

0:12:16And in fact, I think what I would say is,

0:12:19the PR spin on this was,

0:12:22well, it charges on the bottom,

0:12:23but you can charge it really fast.

0:12:24That was the PR spin.

0:12:25And maybe in Steven Levy's article,

0:12:30which didn't have this in so far as I can tell,

0:12:32maybe somewhere Apple should have said,

0:12:34here's why it's on the bottom.

0:12:36Here's the decision we made and why.

0:12:38And they didn't.

0:12:39And I know that one PR school of thought is

0:12:43don't ever open yourself up for criticism,

0:12:45don't call attention to something like this.

0:12:47But it would be interesting to see how this would go

0:12:51if they said, yeah, it's on the bottom,

0:12:53but nobody's gonna care.

0:12:54And what you get for it being on the bottom

0:12:56is whatever the answer is there.

0:13:00But they certainly didn't forget.

0:13:02Go, oh, geez, where do we put the lightning port?

0:13:04I guess it's gotta be on the bottom now.

0:13:06That didn't happen.

0:13:07But sometimes you read Twitter

0:13:08and you feel like people are like,

0:13:09ah, we got you, you forgot this.

0:13:11Nope, they didn't forget it.

0:13:12They just made a decision that opened themselves up to this

0:13:15and sort of surprisingly, they didn't have a story beyond just,

0:13:19"Well, you can charge it fast, so it doesn't matter."

0:13:21- But as you did briefly mention, like, this is their own doing.

0:13:25Like, the way that Apple always positioned themselves

0:13:29as sweating every detail and all that kind of stuff

0:13:33ends up in a scenario where they open themselves up

0:13:36to this type of criticism, and...

0:13:38- Right. So you almost need to blunt it, right?

0:13:40You almost need to say, "Here's why we sweated this detail,

0:13:42because this mouse is appreciably better

0:13:45because we moved the plug to the bottom,

0:13:47and tell that story, and it may or may not be true.

0:13:50It's spin, of course, but it's interesting

0:13:52that I don't think we've heard that story,

0:13:54and that opens, that, that, along with their track record,

0:13:57opens them up to that kind of criticism, totally.

0:13:59- Yep.

0:14:01So, you also did some testing with the Magic Trackpad 2

0:14:06on some other Macs, rather than the iMac.

0:14:08- (laughs) I did.

0:14:10One of the interesting things

0:14:11about the Magic Trackpad 2, unlike the mouse

0:14:13and the keyboard, is that it says that it requires

0:14:16a Bluetooth 4 Mac, which are not,

0:14:21that doesn't go back that far, actually.

0:14:23That's two or three years in most models.

0:14:27The old, the old, she's greater Mac Pros don't support it.

0:14:31Lots of older systems don't support it.

0:14:34And so this is one of those things where people were saying,

0:14:37"Oh, I really want it for my older iMac,

0:14:39but my older iMac doesn't have Bluetooth 4.

0:14:41And so I did try this.

0:14:43I don't know, I've heard conflicting reports

0:14:45about whether somebody who uses like a USB dongle,

0:14:49like that does Bluetooth 4,

0:14:51whether that would work or not.

0:14:53I've heard, you know, some people can get stuff to work

0:14:55with that and other people can't.

0:14:57I have in my house, I used to have the access

0:15:01to the Mac world lab, which when I was working at Mac world,

0:15:04we had like so many old computers, oh my God.

0:15:08but now I don't, I have access to my house.

0:15:11And so I have a 2009 iMac that is on my daughter's desk.

0:15:16I have a 2009 MacBook Pro that is in my,

0:15:21it's right behind my desk here.

0:15:24I've got a 2010, I think, no, 2011 MacBook here.

0:15:28Anyway, I did try it on the MacBook Pro and the iMac.

0:15:32So the iMac, I plugged it in and it didn't work.

0:15:36I think maybe the cursor moved, maybe not even that,

0:15:39but it was running Yosemite.

0:15:42So then I upgraded it to El Capitan and then it worked.

0:15:47I plugged it in thinking, well,

0:15:50it's not gonna work with Bluetooth,

0:15:52but if you plug the keyboard and the trackpad in,

0:15:55they'll work over USB.

0:15:56You can turn off your Bluetooth and they still work,

0:15:59which is cool.

0:16:00So they are wired in a way that the mouse is not.

0:16:05Totally fair point.

0:16:06So that worked and I was like, all right,

0:16:08it worked with Force Touch, the whole thing worked.

0:16:12That's pretty cool.

0:16:13And then I unplugged the cable and it still worked.

0:16:17And I don't, I have no explanation for this.

0:16:20It still worked.

0:16:21- Maybe it just like became friends and didn't wanna leave.

0:16:25- It did not wanna leave with whatever the incompatible,

0:16:27and it may be that the Bluetooth,

0:16:29because it's not Bluetooth LE,

0:16:32maybe the battery gets run down faster.

0:16:35It may be that there's some sort of like sleep mode

0:16:38that kicks in at some point and disconnects

0:16:40that makes it a really bad experience.

0:16:42I heard from somebody who tried on an older Mac to use it

0:16:45and they said that it worked for a little while

0:16:46and then it stopped working

0:16:47and they couldn't get it to work again.

0:16:49And it may be that this, since it's not supported,

0:16:52there may be bugs that one of the reasons

0:16:54it may not be supported is that they couldn't get it to work

0:16:57to Apple satisfaction.

0:16:59And so they just said, nope, it's not supported.

0:17:02But what I've been saying,

0:17:06and when I tried on the MacBook Pro, it was similar.

0:17:08It worked as a track pad,

0:17:10but without El Capitan, that's all it did.

0:17:14It did a single click.

0:17:15It wouldn't even do a two finger click.

0:17:17So it was seeing it as a pointing device,

0:17:19but not as a track pad, essentially,

0:17:23not as anything more than just sort of moving a cursor

0:17:25around and clicking.

0:17:27But on that 2009 iMac, it was working

0:17:30to its full capabilities, gestures, force touch,

0:17:34the works when you're running El Capitan.

0:17:37So, you know, the short version of this is,

0:17:40if you've got an older Mac that doesn't appear

0:17:42to be compatible with a Magic Trackpad 2,

0:17:44but you really want a Magic Trackpad 2,

0:17:46I would recommend ordering one and seeing if it works.

0:17:50And if it doesn't work, send it back.

0:17:52But it might work.

0:17:54That's all I can really say is it might work.

0:17:56it might not work. And I don't have anything comprehensive to say because I've only tried

0:17:59it on two systems. But if you're running El Capitan and you plug it in, it might very

0:18:05well work. So, and it might even work unplugged. But certainly, you know, I think you've got

0:18:09a decent chance of it working if you keep it plugged in via USB. So if you want to give

0:18:13it a shot, give it a shot and you'll find out. It also seems like the Bluetooth powers

0:18:20down when it's plugged in and it runs over the cable, the data is over the cable. So

0:18:25So even if you left Bluetooth on, I think maybe it would still work on USB mode.

0:18:30And I heard from somebody who said that they were RF sensitive, they were sensitive to

0:18:34radio frequencies, which I think they are not broadcasting when they're plugged in,

0:18:41but I don't know that for sure.

0:18:42So that's all I know.

0:18:44But it's an expensive thing to just try out.

0:18:47I guess you could return it.

0:18:49Well, you need to return it.

0:18:51That's it.

0:18:52it needs to be something that you are able to return, right?

0:18:55So, you know, whatever, check wherever you buy it.

0:18:57If you're going to try this out, make sure that it's a place

0:18:59that offers you, you know, a window in which to return it.

0:19:03Go to the Apple store and I think Apple offers --

0:19:06I think Apple offers a return policy of,

0:19:09I don't even know what it is.

0:19:10-I think it's 14 days is the standard one for Apple.

0:19:13-Just to bring it back.

0:19:14So, I think what you're risking is your time at that point.

0:19:18If it doesn't work, you can always bring it back.

0:19:21- All right, let's take a break

0:19:24and we'll jump into some more false touch stuff.

0:19:27- Yeah.

0:19:28- 'Cause we're all about input devices these days.

0:19:30- I guess so.

0:19:31- That's what it's all about.

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0:21:59Now Jason you wrote a piece on your lovingly titled

0:22:04I think this is fantastic more color column on Mac world

0:22:07I don't know if I've mentioned out in the show before but as a great little title for your

0:22:11This is like an op-ed column

0:22:13It's it seems mostly. Yeah, basically Mac world is paying me to

0:22:18write things once a week in that space and

0:22:20Susie came up with the the title more color, which is a nice play off of six colors and also off of the

0:22:28Analysts always asking Tim Cook for more color during conference calls. So it's really good about

0:22:34So, on your more color column this week, you spoke a little bit about the kind of underutilization

0:22:40of Force Touch on the Mac, and maybe the interesting way how if you compare it to iOS, like iOS

0:22:46is already swimming in Force Touch, but whilst it's been around on the Mac for longer, there

0:22:50doesn't really seem to have been too much adoption?

0:22:55Is that, am I fair to say that?

0:22:57Yeah, I mean, there are so many issues here.

0:23:01First, there's the issue of what do you call it, right?

0:23:04And it was funny when the trackpad came out,

0:23:06I was surprised that a lot of the feedback

0:23:08I got from people was, "What do you mean Force Touch?

0:23:10"Isn't it called 3D Touch now?"

0:23:12No, it's not.

0:23:15- They should have standardized.

0:23:16They really should have.

0:23:17And I know why they didn't.

0:23:19I understand that, but I think it made more sense

0:23:21to if they would have standardized.

0:23:23- Yeah, I think the problem is that they,

0:23:26my guess is they have standardized,

0:23:29which is that 3D Touch is the new name.

0:23:32And that my guess is, because again,

0:23:34they could keep them as separate names, but it seems silly.

0:23:36Even if they are different technologies

0:23:38on different operating systems,

0:23:40three different operating systems,

0:23:41it seems silly to have two different brand names

0:23:44for pressure sensitive things, right?

0:23:46It seems silly.

0:23:47So they obviously had Force Touch

0:23:49'cause they put it on the track pad and in the watch

0:23:50and now they've changed their mind

0:23:52for I think, you know, maybe some good reasons.

0:23:54It's, I think it's a better, clearer title, 3D Touch.

0:23:58nice brand name and that's what it is now.

0:24:03But I don't think they're gonna rebrand

0:24:06the existing Force Touch until later.

0:24:09And my guess with the Mac is that it's gonna be

0:24:11until the next version of OS X,

0:24:13at which point they will call it 3D Touch

0:24:16and say, here are all these new features that it does.

0:24:18'Cause the problem with Force Touch

0:24:20is when they introduced it, it was just on the MacBook

0:24:22and the 13-inch MacBook Pro that they revved

0:24:25and now it's also in the 15

0:24:26and now it's also in the trackpad.

0:24:27But it was sort of added piecemeal,

0:24:28It was in the middle of an OS cycle.

0:24:30And surprisingly El Capitan didn't do anything

0:24:33to advance it.

0:24:34And so you end up in this weird state

0:24:37where when 3D Touch came out on the iPhones,

0:24:39Apple said, okay, here's how it works.

0:24:41On icons it does this.

0:24:43And in apps, you can do whatever you want,

0:24:46but we built an API for Peak and Pop that you can use.

0:24:50And we built it into a whole bunch of our apps.

0:24:52And this is a good metaphor for this.

0:24:54And on the Mac, they said,

0:24:57good luck to developers.

0:24:59And for their own part,

0:25:00they basically wired it up to the three finger click

0:25:03and added a few different demonstrations, basically,

0:25:08like in QuickTime of variable speed, but not a lot.

0:25:11In iMovie, there was a modification

0:25:15where you'd get some haptic feedback

0:25:16when you were snapping

0:25:17or when you're dragging to the end of an item.

0:25:20Some like demos and cool demos,

0:25:22but not a lot more than that.

0:25:23And in the intervening time,

0:25:25I haven't used Force Touch

0:25:26since I returned that review MacBook that I got

0:25:29until this week.

0:25:31And not much has changed.

0:25:34The i, which we're gonna talk about in a second,

0:25:37the iWork update that came out last week

0:25:40actually does have some haptic feedback stuff in it,

0:25:44but it's just kind of all over the place

0:25:47and most third-party apps don't seem to support it.

0:25:50And Apple's inconsistent and Apple's apps are inconsistent.

0:25:53And it's just, it's striking to see that story

0:25:55versus the story with 3D Touch, where it's very clear.

0:25:58Now, 3D Touch is a lot easier

0:26:00because there aren't alternate taps for iOS right now.

0:26:03There's like a tap and I guess a long press, right?

0:26:07And that's about it.

0:26:08But on the Mac, you already have control click

0:26:10or right click or whatever you wanna call it,

0:26:13or two finger click.

0:26:14And so what do you do?

0:26:17You can't count on this being there.

0:26:19And it seems kind of pointless to waste it

0:26:20on just another gesture for the control click.

0:26:23So they made it the three finger thing,

0:26:25but the three finger thing is where you kind of stuff

0:26:27everything that isn't important because most people

0:26:30aren't gonna ever three finger click on something.

0:26:32So it's kind of, it's just, it's all over the place.

0:26:35It's not consistent.

0:26:36The names don't match.

0:26:38It just, it strikes me that they had an opportunity

0:26:41to do this and clarify this with El Capitan and they didn't.

0:26:44And we may all be waiting until the next version of OS X

0:26:47before we get more clarity.

0:26:49'cause I do think they need to do peak and pop

0:26:51or something that's the equivalent of that on OS X.

0:26:54And just like on iOS, it's not mandatory.

0:26:59You can't expect it to be there

0:27:01'cause there are lots of devices that don't support it.

0:27:03But if you do have a device that supports it,

0:27:05you know how it works and it works that way

0:27:07in pretty much all modern apps.

0:27:10And on the Mac, there's not much there.

0:27:14There's just not that much there.

0:27:17Yeah, I mean I wonder why they didn't create Peek and Pop for the Mac. Maybe because

0:27:23Force Touch is less of a marketing thing on the Mac than it maybe is on iOS?

0:27:30I don't know.

0:27:33Or maybe, maybe, do you know like is the pressure sensitivity of the track pads

0:27:39as good as the phone? It seems so right? Because you can do like the multiple

0:27:44layer thing for the quick time moving around?

0:27:46Yeah, seems so.

0:27:47It's very interesting, like even if they wanted to keep the peak and pop stuff so it was more

0:27:54sellable on the iPhone, right, so they come up with this great thing, they'll put it,

0:27:57so they're like "oh we can do this but we're gonna put it on the iPhone because it makes

0:28:01a nicer marketing message to introduce it there."

0:28:04It's still strange that it hasn't come back to the Mac yet.

0:28:06Maybe it will but you'd think that it maybe would have come with El Capitan.

0:28:10Yeah that's what I think and I'm surprised that it didn't and maybe it's just that they

0:28:14were not capable of getting it in to El Capitan.

0:28:17It's strange knowing that the Force Touch

0:28:22was going to extend to anybody who wants to buy

0:28:26this Magic Trackpad 2,

0:28:28that that wouldn't be something they would consider

0:28:30and that it was in all their new generation laptops now.

0:28:35But again, yeah, maybe they weren't ready.

0:28:40maybe the 3D touch stuff on iOS was being baked separately

0:28:45and until it got kind of locked in the Mac people,

0:28:50it would be very hard.

0:28:51They could have done it, but the other way to do it

0:28:53would be like, okay, we're gonna unify our pressure,

0:28:56sensitive stuff.

0:28:57We're gonna unify it all.

0:28:58It's all gonna behave the same way.

0:29:00And we're gonna put those in the iOS release in El Capitan.

0:29:02And probably what they said was, you know what?

0:29:04We're just gonna do it in iOS.

0:29:06And once we figure it out in iOS and do it there,

0:29:08then OS X can do it next year.

0:29:10And that's probably what happened.

0:29:11What's weird is the hardware is there now

0:29:14and was there before the iOS hardware was out.

0:29:17So I don't know, I mean, I don't have a problem

0:29:20with force touch as a concept on the Mac.

0:29:23There are moments where I,

0:29:25what I would say is there are moments

0:29:26where I think this would be a really nice place

0:29:29if I could do an alternate click.

0:29:30This would be a really nice place

0:29:31if I could do a force click that brought up a,

0:29:36that executed a script

0:29:37or that brought up a contextual menu that was different

0:29:40from the usual two finger click contextual menu.

0:29:43It happens every now and then that I think

0:29:45this might be a good place for it.

0:29:47And you know, they just, it's not there.

0:29:50I think one of the reasons is because

0:29:52how many developers are spending all their time

0:29:55using a device that's got one of these track pads in it.

0:30:00More now, more soon at least, I think,

0:30:03because they will get this device

0:30:05and they will be able to explore it more than maybe

0:30:08if they're just using a MacBook Pro.

0:30:09'Cause even, I mean, I know developers use MacBook Pros

0:30:12a lot, but are they using them as their main systems

0:30:14and are they using them as their main systems

0:30:15without like an external mouse and keyboard?

0:30:19It's probably a smaller percentage.

0:30:20So I think this Magistrack Pad 2 could go a long way

0:30:23to increasing the number of third-party developers

0:30:25who are at least aware of Force Touch on the Mac.

0:30:30Whether they'll do anything with it, I don't know.

0:30:32but it's just kind of not being used consistently

0:30:35and Apple could lead the way here

0:30:37like they did on iOS with 3D Touch

0:30:38and they really haven't.

0:30:41- I think that it also speaks to the platform advancement

0:30:44because I understand the idea of Mac developers

0:30:47not having Magic Trackpad to test on

0:30:50but so many iOS developers were implementing

0:30:53Force Touch before they had the devices, right,

0:30:55to get it out on day one.

0:30:57I just think it speaks to the platforms a little bit more

0:31:00that on iOS you want to make sure you've got the latest and greatest because it's potentially

0:31:05more of a benefit than having the latest and greatest on the Mac?

0:31:09It's true, it's true, and there's more active development happening on iOS than on the Mac,

0:31:14but that all said, there are people who make their living on the Mac as developers and

0:31:20--

0:31:21But it certainly seems like those developers aren't really making their money from the

0:31:25App Store and I think the reason that iOS developers race is because they'll get the

0:31:31App Store features if they have the new stuff in, right?

0:31:35So if we think about some of the companies that we know, like OmniFocus or James Thompson

0:31:41who develops Peacock, they do direct sale and obviously they move that way and they

0:31:49seem to...

0:31:50I mean there are a couple of developers that I wanted to bring to mind because they're

0:31:53always putting the new stuff in right but I know that James was like he goes

0:32:00crazy trying to get all the iOS stuff in mind the same way the OmniFocus and the

0:32:04Omni group guys do because on the I guess on iOS it's more important if you

0:32:08can get that like made for iPhone 6 feature oh yes right awesome right right

0:32:14I know I was looking in there right the moment the moment that they had that up

0:32:17I was looking in there seeing well you know what are the new apps that Apple

0:32:20has said these use the features of iOS 9.

0:32:23- 'Cause you wanna test them.

0:32:24- But yeah.

0:32:25- This doesn't exist really on the Mac.

0:32:28I mean, does anybody really look in the Mac App Store

0:32:30for anything?

0:32:31Does anyone browse it?

0:32:32Like I never browse the Mac App Store.

0:32:34I browse the iOS App Store like a couple of times a week.

0:32:38- I did use it last week for this.

0:32:41And I went to the search box in the Mac App Store

0:32:43and I typed force touch and there were no responses.

0:32:49there were no search results.

0:32:51- But it feels like there's gotta be an app in there

0:32:52somewhere that has false touch in the description,

0:32:54but it's just not finding them.

0:32:55- You would think, but either way it's not good.

0:32:57(laughs)

0:32:58- Yeah, exactly.

0:32:59- Either way that is a really, really bad sign.

0:33:01So, I don't know, I mean, I wanna say though

0:33:04that Apple's got the right approach on iOS to this,

0:33:06which is, we're gonna show you how you use this,

0:33:09and we're gonna build it in.

0:33:10And they didn't build it in everywhere,

0:33:11and we can complain like control center should have it,

0:33:13and there's lots of stuff that should probably have it

0:33:15that isn't there, but lots of Apple's apps have it built in,

0:33:18and they are generally using the peak and pop metaphor

0:33:22and they supplied an API

0:33:23so that developers didn't have to build

0:33:25peak and pop themselves.

0:33:26They just use what Apple built

0:33:28and it works like you'd expect.

0:33:31And that's good, that's smart.

0:33:33And on Mac OS, on OS 10,

0:33:38they have examples and there's APIs and all,

0:33:42but it's not like they don't have the unified approach

0:33:44that they brought to iOS.

0:33:46And I guess I understand it on one level,

0:33:48but it just seems bizarre to me

0:33:49that they would bring out the hardware

0:33:50and have the software kind of not be hooked up very well.

0:33:54I mean, it works, but what is it for?

0:33:57And El Capitan could have made that case

0:34:00and it didn't make that case.

0:34:02So it's just now that I've got this Force Touch trackpad

0:34:05sitting here, this Magic Mouse or Magic Trackpad 2,

0:34:08what can I use it for?

0:34:10And I'm sure there will be some things

0:34:12that'll be coming out now that this product exists.

0:34:15I think it will help.

0:34:17And I'm sure that there will be some really nerdy utilities

0:34:21that will let you bind strange behaviors to a Force Touch.

0:34:26But it's just not, you know, it's just,

0:34:29it's disappointing that it's not further along.

0:34:32I will say, and we can get to this more in a minute,

0:34:35some of the stuff in the iWork update I'm intrigued by,

0:34:39that's using the haptics rather than the Force Touch.

0:34:42It's interesting that Apple has gone that way with iWork,

0:34:47and that may encourage some developers

0:34:49to use that feature a little bit more.

0:34:51- Let's put a pin in that.

0:34:52We'll come back to iWork in a moment,

0:34:53but just before we get off this topic,

0:34:56are there, you know, you are a Mac user primarily, right?

0:35:01You use the Mac way more than iOS, don't you?

0:35:03- Yeah. - Yeah.

0:35:05Is there any feature that you can think

0:35:08that you would really like to see

0:35:10with full touch on the Mac?

0:35:11Like, is there any part of the OS or any part of Apple's apps or outside of Peek and Pop

0:35:16or any third-party apps that you see as like, "I really, really want to have false touch

0:35:20here for X reason"?

0:35:21Well, for me, a lot of it is about it's a productivity boost.

0:35:25Is there something that I need to do with a keyboard shortcut or going to a menu that

0:35:30I need to do right here, something I could select and then do?

0:35:33And the problem is, this is one of the problems with the UI is a lot of that stuff is on the

0:35:39contextual menu already.

0:35:40So why do you need an additional context?

0:35:43And what I would say is there are cases where the contextual menu is very general and I

0:35:48want something incredibly specific.

0:35:50And that's why I mentioned, you know, the idea of something that takes a script or runs

0:35:55an automator action or something like that where I could bind it directly to a script

0:36:00or I could bind it to a quick pop-up menu of like three things that I could choose from

0:36:05instead of the big full-on contextual menu that I normally get.

0:36:08That would be an example.

0:36:10I can imagine something like Logic having the ability to do a force touch on something

0:36:15in order to get a separate set of controls.

0:36:18What I would really love to do, because you know with Logic you can set your clicks, can't

0:36:24you, to be different tools.

0:36:25So you can choose two tools, right?

0:36:27So you can have left click and right click effectively as different tools.

0:36:30I would love to be able to have force touch as a third tool.

0:36:34Yeah, sure.

0:36:35It'd be great, right?

0:36:36Because why not?

0:36:37I would love that.

0:36:38even better ways to zoom and pan.

0:36:43I feel that there's some stuff there for the Pro apps

0:36:45that could be really interesting.

0:36:47I just wonder what could come out of the more consumer stuff

0:36:51outside of Peek and Pop, which as we said,

0:36:53should really, really be there now,

0:36:55especially in like messages and stuff like that.

0:36:57I would really like to see that.

0:36:59- Yeah.

0:37:00- Whilst we're talking about Peek and Pop,

0:37:01totally different thing, but I just wanted to mention this

0:37:03'cause it's been on my mind and it just popped into my head.

0:37:06Peek and Pop--

0:37:07Did you peak it first?

0:37:08I did and it was popped in.

0:37:10I really like it on iOS but I have one problem how in like, let's say you're in messages

0:37:17and you have a link and you can peak the link and if you pop it, it doesn't pop into place,

0:37:25the app like Safari slides in from the side, I really wish it wouldn't do that.

0:37:29I wish it would just pop it in because like in Tweetbot for example, I don't know if Twitterrific

0:37:34has peak and pop.

0:37:36thing it's using Safari View Controller. But it just pops into place. Yeah. But with, it's

0:37:41something like messages on mail, it opens the Safari app and it's like you're peaking

0:37:46it, oh this looks nice, you pop it and it goes, and it just flaps, and I just wish it

0:37:49wouldn't do that, I wish it would just open it. In a world with Safari View Controller,

0:37:54which is the new thing in iOS 9 that basically lets apps have Safari inside them and it's

0:37:58like full on Safari and then there's that done button that you can, you know, and there's

0:38:02UI issues there that they seem to be working out. Apple's apps should probably use it,

0:38:09right? Yeah, because it's nicer. It's a nicer experience.

0:38:11Because then you never leave the app that you're in, but instead all of Apple's apps

0:38:15go from messages or mail or whatever and open the full Safari instead of using Safari View

0:38:20Controller. I think that's a really interesting argument that, you know, if I want to use

0:38:24Safari I'll be using Safari, and if I want to open this in Safari I can do that, but

0:38:30the default should probably be just open this page here,

0:38:33and then when I'm done, I'll continue on with messages.

0:38:35- Because that action, like the idea of opening

0:38:39the extra app, it breaks the UI flow of peak and pop.

0:38:44Because when it pops in, it opens another app

0:38:47and then loads it again.

0:38:48- Yeah, it's no, I never really considered that,

0:38:53but you're absolutely right that there is,

0:38:56that it's actually bad, I would say bad user experience.

0:38:59Like if you're in mail, why would it not flip up a,

0:39:04and this goes in general, I think,

0:39:07why would it not flip up a Safari View Control?

0:39:09I mean, I'm sure there's a whole big argument there,

0:39:11but I do wonder with some of these,

0:39:13if it perhaps is just that that's not how it's been done

0:39:16in the past.

0:39:17And I wonder, did that argument happen

0:39:19or was it more like, look, too much,

0:39:22we're not gonna debate Safari View Controller in mail,

0:39:24we're just gonna ship it the way it's always been.

0:39:27But wouldn't it be?

0:39:27I think there's an argument to be made

0:39:29that it would be, it's always a better user experience.

0:39:31And again, I'm not saying that this is true.

0:39:33I'm saying it's a, there's an argument to be made

0:39:35that it's always a better experience

0:39:37to stay in the app you're in

0:39:38when you click a link to a webpage,

0:39:41bring up the Safari view controller in iOS 9.

0:39:44And then when you're done, you dismiss it

0:39:45because you're in Facebook or you're in,

0:39:47well, they don't use it, but you're in mail,

0:39:50you're in messages, you're not in Safari.

0:39:53And it would actually reduce the number of times

0:39:56you'd have to see that little thing in the corner

0:39:57that says go back to the app you were in before.

0:40:01- And like if you think that, you know,

0:40:02the majority of people probably use third party apps

0:40:06mostly, right?

0:40:07Or like at least we do, we use third party apps

0:40:10more than Apple's apps.

0:40:12We end up in a world where Apple seems to be doing

0:40:14the weird thing rather than the third parties, right?

0:40:17By not using Safari View Controller.

0:40:19- Yeah.

0:40:21- It's just something that it's been bugging me.

0:40:24So I'm pleased that I remember to bring it up.

0:40:26But we should talk about the iWork update, but before we do that, Jason, could you please

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0:43:15I have also sent some things where it's just a cardboard box from my garage, wrap it up,

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0:43:25my door.

0:43:26Pretty great.

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0:43:55So we finally got some updates to pages, numbers, and Keynote across the board.

0:44:02Yeah.

0:44:03So we got iOS and OS X updates. I know that people hate it when you say things are late,

0:44:11right, but this was late.

0:44:13You know, 'cause it's like,

0:44:14"It's not late until Apple says it's late."

0:44:17This was late, right?

0:44:18Why would they not have had these ready to go

0:44:21when the new phones shipped or when iOS 9 shipped?

0:44:24Like, they were late.

0:44:26Right, is that fair to say, Jason?

0:44:29- Yeah, on the Mac side, the same thing, right?

0:44:31On the Mac side, the apps hadn't been updated in ages

0:44:34and didn't get updated with El Capitan or iOS 9,

0:44:39but they did get updated.

0:44:40- Yeah, they're here now, which is great.

0:44:43- This was a topic on Clockwise at one point,

0:44:45which was like concern that Apple,

0:44:47did Apple need to care about iWork anymore?

0:44:50Now that, you know, Microsoft is on iOS with good apps

0:44:55and Google's got good apps on iOS.

0:44:57You know, iWork is, iWork originally was sort of a hedge,

0:45:00like you can be productive on the iPad,

0:45:02but now there's so many ways to be productive,

0:45:04but they did finally update it.

0:45:06So full credit to them.

0:45:07It added a lot of features,

0:45:09some of which are kind of embarrassing,

0:45:10like backward compatibility with old versions,

0:45:12where it used to be like,

0:45:13you had to keep the old version around.

0:45:15And like when you installed the new version,

0:45:17it would move the old version into a folder,

0:45:19but keep it there because if you had old files,

0:45:22they wouldn't open in new versions, which is so bad.

0:45:25But they added support for older versions.

0:45:29And there's some other cool stuff in there.

0:45:32It's funny that it took this long,

0:45:34but I'm glad they're here because for those people,

0:45:37I hear from a lot of people who rely on iWork,

0:45:39I love Keynote and I use that. I'm giving a presentation at a user group

0:45:43tomorrow and I'm going to use Keynote. PowerPoint is a lot better than it used

0:45:46to be but Keynote is my presentation tool of choice. And I actually use

0:45:51numbers a lot to make charts because I think that the charts and graph stuff in

0:45:56numbers is very pretty. That's why I use numbers because I don't fully

0:46:03understand everything that Excel can do and I like the way that the numbers

0:46:08charts look. If I have to make anything to send to somebody, like you know like

0:46:12sometimes I make like proposals for sponsorship, right? So someone will say

0:46:17you know I have this much budget what do you want to do with that? And I'll put

0:46:20together a nice looking document in pages and numbers which is what I really

0:46:24like to use them for. I mean I do use Microsoft products quite a lot but I

0:46:31tend to use them because people send me Microsoft files, right? They send me Word

0:46:36files and stuff but it's it's not where I necessarily go. I personally just the

0:46:42OS X first UI of the iWorkSuite makes the most sense to me. Well I learned back

0:46:50when the charting tools in Excel for the Mac were really awful I learned how to

0:46:56numbers came out and they were pretty and I learned how to use it and now my

0:47:00understanding is that the the chart generation stuff in Excel is a lot

0:47:03better than it was I don't know if it's as good as numbers but it's a lot better

0:47:06than it was. The charts output can be made a lot prettier, but it's too late. I've learned

0:47:10how to use numbers. Numbers make pretty charts, and so I'm happy to use that. And like I said

0:47:16about Keynote, one of the funny things that they did do on the Mac side here is they support

0:47:22haptic feedback for—I think it's snapping to guides when you're in some of these apps,

0:47:28so it's really interesting. I'm not sure whether I like it or not. Well, I kind of like it.

0:47:32I think it's kind of interesting that in addition

0:47:35to the visual like snap, when you're moving to something

0:47:38and it's trying to show you alignment possibilities.

0:47:40So it gives you, it drops the, it's not even snapping.

0:47:44It's dropping an alignment guide

0:47:46when you move it into proper alignment.

0:47:48I guess it does snap a little bit.

0:47:49And that's great for lining things up.

0:47:52It's a great feature, but now you get this faint

0:47:55kind of like bump when that appears.

0:47:59So it's almost like you can feel the location positions

0:48:04for an item as you're dragging it around on the canvas,

0:48:07which is kind of fun.

0:48:09So when we were talking about the Force Touch track pads

0:48:13earlier, I should say that this is an interesting bit

0:48:16of haptic feedback that they built into,

0:48:19I was using it on numbers earlier today,

0:48:21and it's kind of cool.

0:48:22And an interesting different kind of interaction,

0:48:27you know, feedback model. Like it's in addition to the visual now you've got a little bit of feel on

0:48:32that on that otherwise unremarkable glass surface. Now you actually are kind of feeling a texture

0:48:39in the app that you're using which is uh that's actually uh pretty cool. That's bringing the

0:48:43whimsy via Force Touch. It is a little bit. That's not a bad thing. I think that is a good thing.

0:48:50It's what Apple's good at. Like what you've just explained there, it's not needed right, but it's

0:48:55nice that it's there.

0:48:58- Yeah, I mean, what are those alignment guides for?

0:49:02They're to give you feedback that you may be,

0:49:05you know, you sort of snapped to a place

0:49:07that might be exactly where you need to be.

0:49:09And then, you know, and then when you move it a little bit,

0:49:14here I'm doing it right now,

0:49:16you get this little boop, little thing that says,

0:49:18oh, now you're in alignment.

0:49:20And it may drive some people crazy,

0:49:22but I think it's kind of a neat idea

0:49:24to just, what if we had the ability to do,

0:49:27to give more feedback than visual?

0:49:29Now we do, with this haptic little buzzer in the track pad,

0:49:34we can give people a little jolt.

0:49:38I would use that, like iMovie,

0:49:40having that thing that tells you

0:49:41when you're at the end of a drag,

0:49:42I could totally see that in Logic.

0:49:44I would love to see that in Logic,

0:49:45where when I was moving things around,

0:49:47I got a little bit of haptic feedback

0:49:48to go with dragging things,

0:49:50or opening, expanding, or contracting clips.

0:49:54I think that would be a, again, it's just another reminder.

0:49:56Sometimes you're dragging and you're not paying that close attention and you're getting a

0:50:00little feel in addition to something on screen.

0:50:03I don't know.

0:50:04Is it, you know, it's new.

0:50:06It's a new interaction for me and I don't know how useful it is but I like the idea

0:50:11of trying.

0:50:13As someone who's just been putting together a presentation in Keynote, I am in the snap

0:50:17to alignment camp.

0:50:19I like how it does that because I cannot align things by my eyes.

0:50:24Oh, that's one of my favorites.

0:50:26I mean, in Keynote and in Numbers, it's one of my favorite features, the fact that you've

0:50:31got this ability to...

0:50:35I can't eyeball centering something to save my life, right?

0:50:40But it'll just do it.

0:50:41It'll be like, "Yep, now it's centered."

0:50:42Okay, good.

0:50:43Good feedback.

0:50:44Thanks, App.

0:50:45app. But yeah, like for what's new in Keynote, I just opened it and it's got, you know, SplitView

0:50:51support for El Capitan, Open Keynote 08 and 06 presentations. Yeah!

0:50:56I can't believe, I just can't believe that that was a thing, that you couldn't do that.

0:51:01It's kind of crazy. I mean, it's not like it was years and years ago, but it just is

0:51:05kind of crazy to me that it doesn't work. On iOS, basically it's, you know, it got all

0:51:13of the iOS 9 stuff right it got yeah split view slide over listen 3d touch

0:51:18stuff all the stuff that you want but one of the things that didn't happen

0:51:23which I was hoping would happen would be better collaboration tools with the web

0:51:27yeah which came out of the web client I guess is no longer called the beta yeah

0:51:33they're saying that they're doing more with it and then I mean I can't remember

0:51:36off my head but Apple has this big chart that I'll put in the put in the show

0:51:40And they say they're doing more, but it's still the idea, which is just crazy to me,

0:51:47of if you want to collaborate with somebody, you download their version that they share

0:51:52with you, then you make your own changes to it.

0:51:55Like it just doesn't make any sense.

0:51:56You can't do any collaboration.

0:51:59And I think if you can't do collaboration like the Google Drive stuff, you can't say

0:52:05you do any.

0:52:06I feel like they're in the place that I think Microsoft was a while ago, which I think Microsoft

0:52:10is now in a better place where you've got multiple people open on a document and they

0:52:14lock it at like for word, it's like at the paragraph level. And that's what you want

0:52:20is you start with it being a serial collaboration, which is like we've done in Microsoft. That

0:52:25was what their story was for a long time was like, we've got, we've got collaboration.

0:52:29Everybody can take a turn. It's like, okay, well, what if I want to collaborate simultaneously

0:52:35with somebody on a long document where they're in this chapter and I'm in this chapter? What

0:52:38What about then?

0:52:39Nope.

0:52:40Doesn't work, right?

0:52:41And now I think it does in Microsoft stuff, it definitely does in Google stuff.

0:52:45But you know, Apple's got some work to do there.

0:52:47And I think you can do that all on the web, right?

0:52:49But not in the apps.

0:52:51Yeah.

0:52:53And that's the crazy thing.

0:52:55There is an amount of it that you can do on the web, but the fact that you can't...

0:52:59Because when I probably should have prefaced that and said, "It's about the apps for me,"

0:53:02which is important.

0:53:04And the fact that you can't do the stuff in the apps is crazy to me.

0:53:08Like I've seen Dropbox look to be doing something, right?

0:53:12They've got their thing called Paper.

0:53:14Paper, sure, why not?

0:53:16Because everyone can have an app called Paper.

0:53:19And we should call the Real AFM app Paper.

0:53:21Paper, everything.

0:53:22Paper for Real AFM.

0:53:23Paper FM.

0:53:24Yeah, new show, Paper.

0:53:26It's just all the old shows.

0:53:29that they haven't currently got an app working and they're saying maybe at some point but

0:53:35there's no, doesn't really seem to be concrete plans that's being reported right now that

0:53:39they have an app.

0:53:40And it's like you've got to have an app.

0:53:43Like you just do.

0:53:45Like if you're making a tool like this, people are only going to be able to adopt it for

0:53:50collaboration if they can use it everywhere.

0:53:53Which is why, you know, some people don't like Google Docs but it's why it's irreplaceable

0:53:57for me.

0:53:58tried some other services. Have you ever heard of Quip, Jason? Yes. So me and

0:54:04Federico tried to use that for a while but the overall experience was

0:54:09relatively inconsistent but it was at least doing everything that you

0:54:14needed. You could do collaboration on the web and you could do collaboration in

0:54:18the apps and it was all live and that's the exact sort of stuff that you need to

0:54:22be doing. I think if you want something like this, if you want to say you have a

0:54:25a document collaboration tool like this, it has to be able to be cross-platform and running

0:54:31live everywhere.

0:54:32Yeah, I agree with you. I think we should give some credit to the fact that the iWork

0:54:40collaboration stuff is much more functional than it used to be.

0:54:44Yeah, oh, it's way better than it was.

0:54:46Back when it asked you to take action.

0:54:47Yeah, I mean, there is an episode of The Prompt, I'll put it in the show notes, this is going

0:54:52Deep Catalog, but where we tried to use it to plan that episode and it was just

0:55:00it was horrific. It was so bad and it has gotten way better but it's still lacking

0:55:06in so many of the things that we found it lacking in then.

0:55:10Oh man, yeah, that was a good that is one of my favorite episodes of The Prompt

0:55:14because you guys just get more angry as it goes.

0:55:17Yeah and the take action was because there was a there was a dialogue I can't

0:55:20remember what the dialogue said, but it only had one option, and the option was take action.

0:55:23Take action. No, it's come a long way since then. It is a much more functional thing.

0:55:28I'm glad they took the beta label off of it. But you're right. I think you need to be able

0:55:32to collaborate in apps, and it needs to be real time. And that just needs to be how it is,

0:55:37because people do document collaboration. That's how the world works these days.

0:55:40And it's not serial, especially on large documents. But even on small documents,

0:55:47You'll have a lot of people in there and Google, you know, Google set the bar here and everybody

0:55:51else has to match it on that point.

0:55:54>> All right.

0:55:56We still have -- we're doing Back to the Future Part II like at the movies at the end of the

0:56:00six episodes.

0:56:01So why don't we do some Ask Upgrade now to ease us into a very exciting Myke to the Movies

0:56:08I think.

0:56:09>> Let's do it.

0:56:10But first, would you like to tell people about our Ask Upgrade sponsor, Myke?

0:56:13>> I would love to.

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0:56:38And then once you finally get everybody's time available, then you need to try and book

0:56:42a meeting room somewhere, which can be horrific.

0:56:45I remember in my old job, I would get to this stage and it would be like, well,

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0:58:14Let's go to meeting.com for your free 30 day trial. Thank you so much to GoToMeeting for

0:58:19their support of Upgrade and AskUpgrade. What do you imagine is happening when you make that sound?

0:58:28Lasers. Yeah, because I imagine it like the lasers like coming down to the stage, right?

0:58:33I don't know what stage, but the stage that we're doing this show. The AskUpgrade stage.

0:58:38Paul wants to know, are the new iMacs available with the VESA mount option?

0:58:42Yes, I looked it up Paul, yes they are. And if you go, so because there's no Apple store anymore

0:58:50online, it's just the Apple website, if you try to buy an iMac, so you go to the like buy this iMac

0:58:57kind of page, there is, if you scroll down there's a paragraph basically that says,

0:59:03these are also available in a visa mount option and if you click that then you get to buy them

0:59:08with that. So yes they are available they don't it's not you know they don't make it a mainstream

0:59:12thing but they know that some people want to mount them on an arm or on a wall or something instead

0:59:16and so they are still available that way and as with the last versions I believe it's the same

0:59:21story which is it's one or the other it's no longer an adapter kit you either get it without

0:59:26a foot or you get it with a foot and those are your only choices so I will put in a word for this

0:59:31If you're somebody who plans on using your iMac at like a desk,

0:59:35consider it. I did it. I have my iMac on an arm, and it's nice. I can, it's adjustable. I can push it

0:59:42away. I can pull it closer. I can tilt it. I can lift it up or put it lower down toward the desk.

0:59:48I've got an adjustable desk. It's a sit-stand desk, so that's nice because I can adjust my

0:59:52iMac too. And the iMac floats on the desk, so I have access to my whole desktop. So it does mean

0:59:58that yes when I'm done with it and I want to give it to somebody else I'm going to have to find a

1:00:02VESA mount stand for it because it's now permanently you know not with an iMac foot but

1:00:10I'll deal with that those are available and I'll deal with that when I get there but I'm really

1:00:15glad that I got it on the VESA mount version and put it on an ARM instead so think about it.

1:00:22So I can't do this with the Mac that I bought?

1:00:26You can't?

1:00:29No because I didn't buy a VESA one so you can't like convert them right?

1:00:34No somebody makes like an arm that has a clamp that grabs onto the foot but it's not no no it's

1:00:41it's no it's actually it's really very funny to look at and you know you got to do what you

1:00:49what you gotta do, but no, it's no.

1:00:51- Under no circumstances am I doing that.

1:00:53That seems like a horrifically bad idea.

1:00:55- You're in or you're out.

1:00:57You gotta embrace the mounting arm thing or not.

1:01:00And I did, and I fretted about it

1:01:02when I bought my 5K iMac last year, I fretted about it,

1:01:05but I've been really happy with it.

1:01:08And I was actually already using this arm

1:01:10for a Dell monitor, like a 27 inch Dell monitor

1:01:14that I was using to dock my MacBook Air.

1:01:17And it supported the weight.

1:01:20I looked at the specs

1:01:20and it supported the weight of the iMac.

1:01:22And so I just took the Dell monitor off

1:01:24and put the iMac on and it's been a year

1:01:26and it has served me well.

1:01:28So I've got clamped.

1:01:29Yeah, I've got the monitor arm clamped

1:01:31to one part of my desk

1:01:32and I've got a microphone boom arm clamped

1:01:35to the other part of the desk,

1:01:35but it works really well.

1:01:37And it keeps my desktop clear, which is nice.

1:01:40I can move things in and out and I can, you know,

1:01:42it's good.

1:01:43I recommend it if you're somebody who,

1:01:47you know, who is in a work situation or a home office situation where you might be better off with it on an arm somewhere instead of just sitting on a desk.

1:01:58Real time follow-up, CGP Grey is very angry at you right now.

1:02:03Oh is he?

1:02:04Well, it won't be the first time.

1:02:06I assume he wanted the VESA mount option now, but has now put himself in a situation where he can't.

1:02:11But knowing Grey, he'll just buy another one.

1:02:14He's mad at me for bringing information.

1:02:16- That's what I think so.

1:02:18- Okay. - I think so.

1:02:19- It is available.

1:02:20Is Paul a pseudonym for CGP Grey?

1:02:24(laughing)

1:02:25Lister Paul, is that you Lister Paul?

1:02:28(laughing)

1:02:30- Maybe, maybe, maybe that's what the P stands for.

1:02:33- Apple does not make it easy for you.

1:02:35You have to go to apple.com/imac and click the buy button,

1:02:38which you know, again, it takes you to this weird thing

1:02:41that oh, it's not an online Apple store,

1:02:43except it's apple.com/shop, right?

1:02:45but no, no, no.

1:02:47And there they've got all of the,

1:02:49look at all of the 21 inch models,

1:02:51look at all the 27 inch models.

1:02:52And then right below that it says,

1:02:54looking for an iMac with a built-in VESA mount adapter?

1:02:56Question mark.

1:02:57What's the answer?

1:02:59Well, you must click to find out.

1:03:01And when you click, it's the same page, essentially again,

1:03:03except with the VESA mount versions.

1:03:06- I think Gray is very upset

1:03:08that we didn't give him this information last week.

1:03:10I think that's-

1:03:11- Cancel your order and order again.

1:03:13Do it, do it.

1:03:15Join the visor.

1:03:17Oh but it's being delivered tomorrow.

1:03:20So is mine actually I think it's gonna arrive.

1:03:23It will definitely arrive whilst I'm away.

1:03:26So I'm very much looking forward to getting it all ready because especially as we won't

1:03:30be recording on the Monday that gives me more time to get everything ready and I will be

1:03:35able to talk about what the life with a 27 inch retina iMac is like for me.

1:03:40Oh nice.

1:03:42Benjamin would like to know, is there a way to instantly pair the Magic Keyboard to an

1:03:46iOS device like you can with a Mac?

1:03:49Nope.

1:03:50You still have to go through there and type in this thing and do this thing.

1:03:53Yeah, it'll bring it up and it'll say like Magic Keyboard and you'll tap it in iOS and

1:04:00then it pairs and then it's a Bluetooth keyboard.

1:04:02But there's no magic because it would need to be like a lightning to lightning cable

1:04:06or something and I don't think they bothered.

1:04:09that yeah no just Bluetooth pair it it's fine so I have a question so yeah well a

1:04:17question to me actually hashtag ask up ask yourself on upgrade I got that wrong

1:04:22this person's name is Michael but it's not me asking myself a question Michael

1:04:26okay no what ergonomic keyboard I use because I mentioned this and I I use the

1:04:34Microsoft Sculpt ergonomic keyboard. I will put a link in the show notes to

1:04:39Marco's review to this because one it gives you the details you need and two

1:04:42Marco was the one that recommended this to me. It does not have a Mac layout it

1:04:50is a Windows layout but you can go in and you can actually in keyboard

1:04:56preferences you can change it to PC so it kind of just works right yeah so I

1:05:01I change it to British PC because I have a British version here. Do you know the difference,

1:05:06some of the differences between US and British keyboards? If you've ever seen a British keyboard,

1:05:10you probably have, right?

1:05:11I have. So on my visits to the UK, and I think maybe I saw this on, it might have even been

1:05:20yours, but on somebody's laptop in the US, but certainly when I was in the UK, I was

1:05:24looking at somebody's keyboard and I had a moment of like, "Wait, wait, wait. What is

1:05:30because you think "oh yeah we speak the same language it's all fine" and you

1:05:34guys don't have our keyboard. No. We have a vastly superior keyboard with a

1:05:39beautiful key that we call the return key which functions as the enter key and

1:05:45it's this upside down boot shape it's glorious. That's weird. And also we have

1:05:52things like above the two is quotation marks and the @ symbol is above the

1:06:00comma. Just little things like that. That's wild. And I have a pound key. Well,

1:06:10you should. Yeah, so I can very easily go hashtag crazy without needing to know a

1:06:16keyboard shortcut. Not pound as in currency. British pound. Oh, you have

1:06:21an actual like number sign. Yeah, yeah we have that it's on the keyboard. That's so

1:06:28strange. I love it I'm a big I love my I love my UK keyboard but yeah I so I use

1:06:33the Microsoft sculpt I like it a lot I think at some point in the future I want

1:06:38to talk about this type of stuff a little bit more because I am having some

1:06:43severe wrist pains right now and I want to I'm trying out a bunch of different

1:06:48input devices so I want to talk about these. Right now I am using a Wacom for everything.

1:06:55So I want to talk about this a little bit more maybe in a future episode as this is

1:06:59something that is finding its way into my life but luckily I have lots of friends like

1:07:04Mr Siracusa who give me great advice of books and things to check out. So maybe we'll talk

1:07:10about this in a future episode but I do really like the Sculpt Ergonomic Keyboard. It's one

1:07:15of those ones that puts a hole in the middle of your keyboard and kind of slumps everything

1:07:19towards it.

1:07:20Yeah, I can't use those, but they're better for a lot of people who have ergonomic problems.

1:07:25Yeah, my problem is I can't use the others. It's best of a bad lot.

1:07:30It's funny, people were talking about the extended keyboards on the — that Apple's

1:07:34keyboard doesn't have — it's tenkeyless, I was told, by I think maybe Marco Arment,

1:07:39actually. It might have been CGP Grey. Tenkeyless is the proper term, which is a ridiculous

1:07:44term.

1:07:45- I like that word, it's ridiculous.

1:07:47- You know, it doesn't have the extra stuff on the side.

1:07:51But one of the reasons I like the really small keyboard,

1:07:54not small key caps, the key caps are full size,

1:07:56but something like the new Magic Keyboard that is just,

1:08:00it doesn't have a number pad or anything like that.

1:08:02One of the reasons I like that is that it gets

1:08:03my trackpad closer to my keyboard.

1:08:08And I like that because that's less sort of like

1:08:10spreading out that I have to do with my wrists.

1:08:14It's all just sort of right in front of me.

1:08:16And instead of having this very little used thing,

1:08:18since I'm right-handed especially,

1:08:20little used thing that sits between the keys that I type on

1:08:23and the track pad that I use for moving around on screen.

1:08:27So I like that.

1:08:28I know that for some people,

1:08:30I also grew up using an Apple II

1:08:31that didn't have a 10 key.

1:08:33And so I learned how to type numbers

1:08:35on the horizontal number row instead.

1:08:39And I know that if you learned to use a keypad,

1:08:41then it's like death to not have it.

1:08:44But I didn't learn on that and so it didn't matter to me.

1:08:48- Yeah, the sculpt is tenkeyless,

1:08:50but it comes with a little tenkey additional thing,

1:08:54which is great, which you can put next to it.

1:08:56Which I like that, 'cause working in finance and banking

1:09:00as I did for so long, I am so fast on a tenkey.

1:09:04- Oh, I bet.

1:09:05- It's ridiculous.

1:09:05- Sure.

1:09:06- It's one of those things where I don't even know

1:09:08where the keys are, but my hand does.

1:09:11you know, anyway.

1:09:13I'm gonna go with Masaj wrote in to say

1:09:19that he's considering buying a 5K iMac

1:09:22with eight gigabytes of RAM

1:09:23and later swapping it with a 32 gigabytes to save money.

1:09:27So there's a couple of questions about this.

1:09:28Does it affect warranty?

1:09:30Which manufacturer should I pick?

1:09:31And did I consider doing this?

1:09:33So Jason, do you know the answers to the first two?

1:09:35Does it affect your warranty?

1:09:36And it doesn't anymore?

1:09:38- The 27, no, it, it, it,

1:09:40the 27 inch iMac has a RAM door on the back.

1:09:41You open the door and you put in RAM

1:09:43and it doesn't affect your warranty

1:09:45because it's a user serviceable feature.

1:09:48It's built to let users do that.

1:09:51So I believe the 27 inch iMac has four slots.

1:09:55So I think it ships with, what, it ships it,

1:10:00does it ship with two, four gig or four?

1:10:04I think it's two, four gig and I have 16.

1:10:06I think I just bought it with a 2.4 and then added two more 4 gig modules.

1:10:13So I have 16 gigs of RAM.

1:10:15I think Stephen said to me, because I got the 16, but he said he thinks it's two eights,

1:10:20so I can still put more in as well.

1:10:23I recommend Crucial for RAM.

1:10:26I've used them in the past.

1:10:28The prices are really good.

1:10:30They're really good in the UK and the US because they have a UK supplier.

1:10:34They also supply in the UK.

1:10:36I've always used that stuff, I've always been happy with it whenever I've done this stuff.

1:10:39So I recommend Crucial.

1:10:41Because they also have guides as well for how to upgrade this stuff, which is really

1:10:46useful.

1:10:47So I've used them in the past.

1:10:48I don't know if you have anybody else that you'd recommend for RAM?

1:10:52I don't think I have any particular brand that I would recommend.

1:10:55Okay, so I would say Crucial.

1:10:56I don't know if other people will be upset about that.

1:10:59I haven't considered doing this.

1:11:00I decided to just go with 16, just put 16 in there because it wasn't massively more

1:11:04and I figured I just want to get it put in and have it delivered to me and I can put

1:11:08more in later if I need it but I don't see myself needing more than 16 for a while.

1:11:13Like 16 for me is really good, that's really hefty.

1:11:16I have 16 in the Mac Pro and I'm never in a scenario where I'm like "oh we should just

1:11:20have more RAM" it's just not a thing that I feel I need.

1:11:24I feel like now that there are, at least with some of the stuff that I'm doing, there are

1:11:28bottlenecks in other places and RAM isn't going to help it.

1:11:32So you know, that's that.

1:11:34And Hakon asked "Which 3D touch setting do you use?"

1:11:38So I'm assuming that he means in the accessibility preferences.

1:11:42I've turned mine down all the way to the most sensitive, like the softest.

1:11:46Have you changed it on your iOS twice?

1:11:49Yeah, I think mine's in the middle.

1:11:52I think mine's still the default in the middle.

1:11:54Standard.

1:11:55Yeah.

1:11:56Alright.

1:11:57Yeah, I mean I like it at the softest level, personally, but I have found that I very easily

1:12:03trigger it off when I mean to long press.

1:12:06And I think that that might be because it's at the softest level.

1:12:11So I think that is it for Ask Upgrade, which means it's time to discuss Back to the Future

1:12:16Part 2 for a special Myke at the Movies and we will reiterate in a moment why we're doing

1:12:21this one and what makes it different.

1:12:23But before we do that, let me take a moment to thank our sponsor for Myke at the Movies

1:12:27this week and that is The Great Smile and PDF Pen 7 for the Mac.

1:12:31PDF Pen is the ultimate all-purpose PDF editor and now SMILE offers 10 great tutorials from

1:12:38the very talented and lovely Mr David Sparks, also known as Max Sparky, host of MacPal users

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1:13:29I've watched David's screencasts, I've watched some of these videos as well.

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1:13:34If you've been considering PDFPen or you're interested in it, just go and watch these

1:13:39videos.

1:13:40They'll be at Smilesoftware.com/upgrade and he will be able to show you exactly how to

1:13:44use this stuff.

1:13:46If anything, just to hear David's great voice.

1:13:48He has a great voice, he's really good at this stuff, he's great at teaching, he's going

1:13:52to help you understand how to use this stuff.

1:13:54And I just wanted to add to all of this, I love PDFPen.

1:13:57mentioned earlier about needing word documents sometimes people send me word

1:14:02documents that I need to sign. It's like what am I gonna do here? Do I need to print this?

1:14:08But like no. What I do is I open it in PDF pen and then I can sign it and I can

1:14:15even export it back out as a Word document again or a PDF. It is so cool. I

1:14:19love it for that. It saves my bacon every week where I get sent these documents

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1:14:41but are also ready for El Capitan.

1:14:44Thank you so much to Smile

1:14:45for sponsoring this week's episode of Upgrade.

1:14:49So we mentioned this before,

1:14:51but we're doing Back to the Future Part 2 this week.

1:14:53It's a departure from the usual format of Myke at the Movies

1:14:57because I have seen this movie.

1:15:01- Yes.

1:15:02- Not only have I seen this movie,

1:15:03it is one of my favorite movies.

1:15:05But considering this week actually on Wednesday

1:15:08is the day that Marty flies into the future,

1:15:13it felt like a fitting Myke at the Movies to do.

1:15:18- Absolutely, couldn't be more timely.

1:15:20- So there's a bunch of stuff this week.

1:15:22for a movie made in 1990.

1:15:23(laughing)

1:15:25- 1989, so it even fits in the usual 80s rule.

1:15:29- Okay.

1:15:32- At least that's what IMDb tells me.

1:15:34So again, we're not breaking rules here.

1:15:36- All right, 1980, yeah, November 1989, you're right.

1:15:38- There you go.

1:15:39So you have done an incomparable about Back to the Future?

1:15:44- About all the movies.

1:15:45It's a pretty old one, it's number 41,

1:15:47but people can check that out.

1:15:49This was back when the incomparable did much broader topics.

1:15:54- Yes, back when I didn't realize

1:15:56that we would be nearing 300 episodes.

1:15:59- Let's talk about movies today.

1:16:01- Seriously, we did an episode about Joss Whedon,

1:16:03like all, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer,"

1:16:05I could do 10 episodes about Buffy alone.

1:16:08And we did one episode,

1:16:09there was this, "Everything Joss Whedon has done."

1:16:11Yeah, smart.

1:16:13We didn't know what we were doing.

1:16:14But yes, we did a live episode

1:16:17in the Macworld podcast room,

1:16:19which got increasingly stuffy as it goes.

1:16:22So we get a little punchy at the end,

1:16:23but it was like me and Dan Frakes and Lex Friedman

1:16:25and Serenity and Dan, I think that was who the crowd was,

1:16:29but it's number 41, it's called,

1:16:31but your kids are gonna love it.

1:16:32So you can check that out.

1:16:33- And this is, you know, this is a great week

1:16:37'cause this week there is stuff everywhere

1:16:39at "But Back to the Future."

1:16:40Like there are lots of things,

1:16:42there are lots of companies

1:16:42that are bringing out all some stuff.

1:16:45I'm really excited for what the week's gonna bring.

1:16:47as a massive fan of this series.

1:16:50I love Back to the Future.

1:16:53Back to the Future and Back to the Future 2

1:16:54are in my top list of movies of all time.

1:16:58I love these movies so much.

1:17:00Back to the Future 2 was always my favorite as a kid

1:17:03because of the 2015 scene.

1:17:06There was something about it,

1:17:08it just grabbed me and I loved it so much.

1:17:11Over time though,

1:17:15Part one and part two have jostled,

1:17:16which is my favorite of the series,

1:17:18and I'm gonna talk about a little later on why that is,

1:17:21because it was only up until about six months ago

1:17:26that I always thought that part two was my favorite,

1:17:28and I think that Back to the Future I is my favorite now.

1:17:33- That's a good choice.

1:17:35- And I'll talk about what it is.

1:17:36There's a specific part that anybody that knows the movie

1:17:39probably knows what I'm referring to.

1:17:41But we should do as we always do,

1:17:43kind of go through this chronologically. I don't have as detailed notes as usual

1:17:47because I know this movie so well, right? I didn't really think it was necessary.

1:17:51And plus I want to talk a little bit more kind of about the movie and kind of

1:17:56in the way that it has influenced a bunch of things and how interesting it

1:18:01is to me now watching it with the context of it was talking about right

1:18:06now. Right. Which I like. But I did want to mention a listener Tom sent in a link

1:18:12to an Amazon.com listing for the 30th anniversary trilogy box set that they're selling and there's

1:18:20a video that you can watch which is an ad for it and it's very very clever because they

1:18:25are basically saying in the ad to show you the future that we would have had if Marty

1:18:34and the doc hadn't messed with it. So what they're saying is like we don't have all the

1:18:38stuff that's in this because they messed with the timeline. I thought that was very clever.

1:18:44I like that. I wonder if listener Tom is Tom Wilson who plays Biff in Back to the Future.

1:18:51Probably. We'll just say it is. We'll say it. Tom, last name withheld. That's head canon

1:18:56right there. That is my head canon, yeah, that's right. So, again, right, so one of

1:19:03the consistent themes that I'm going to talk about for what I love about this movie is

1:19:06the way that it is intertwined with the first movie.

1:19:10And I love that this movie begins

1:19:14with the end scene of the first movie,

1:19:17which obviously they re-shot

1:19:18because the actress that plays Jennifer didn't renew.

1:19:23Like she didn't come back.

1:19:25- For some reason, yeah.

1:19:26Lauren and I were talking about this

1:19:29when we watched this last night.

1:19:30And she says, "Well, given how little she has to do

1:19:33"in this movie," and it's Elizabeth Shue

1:19:35they get to replace her. It's got to be that she wasn't available because even if they

1:19:40decided oh no she's not a very good actress and now we need her she's basically not in

1:19:44the movie. I think it was money related. So it must have been something like that. Yeah

1:19:49which I believe is the same for Crispin Glover as well. Yeah Crispin Glover well he's also

1:19:53a weirdo so he may just have not wanted to come back but he definitely didn't come back.

1:19:58First movie made a lot of money and then they see you know Steven Spielberg is lining up

1:20:02to produce this, you know, two movies back to back. They shot two and three together.

1:20:08And I could see how somebody might try to hold out for a bigger payday. I could sort

1:20:13of see that. I think it hurts the movie because I really love the original. And this is a

1:20:22recreation of it here. Instead of it really being the same scene as the previous movie,

1:20:27It's this not quite the same because it's Elizabeth Shue and she's got like a wig to

1:20:34match the girl from the other movie and her hair is really weird.

1:20:38I don't know, it's too bad because I have so much goodwill because of loving the first

1:20:43movie so much and the opening scene, it feels a little sour to me because it is absolutely

1:20:48a re-recorded version.

1:20:52It's almost like you're watching kind of the stage version of Back to the Future here at

1:20:56the beginning.

1:20:57I love it for that and you because I love that they just did.

1:21:00I just love that they did it.

1:21:01I just love because they didn't even need to do it.

1:21:04Right.

1:21:04Cause they start this movie with no explanation.

1:21:07Like you had to have seen Back to the Future one.

1:21:09So they could have just as easily started with them in the car, right?

1:21:12Like in the future, having just gone, you know, or start with Biff looking

1:21:16up as the DeLorean flies away.

1:21:18But they recreate that scene, which I, I mean, I can see why you wouldn't like it.

1:21:22For the reason that you mentioned, it's a very good point, but I love it because of

1:21:25that and like one of my long-running theme one of the things that are I'm

1:21:30gonna mention it now because we're talking about it now but I think Back to

1:21:33the Future 2 is the most sequel-y sequel ever in all of the right ways it is like

1:21:37the most perfect sequel because it like reuses elements and scenes from the

1:21:42first movie and is completely intertwined of it like it is for me I

1:21:46think a fantastic achievement of editing the way that they put this together I

1:21:51I agree there's some amazing stuff in here. I would say yeah we'll get to it. I think you're right Biff

1:21:59Biff is the reason this scene is is replayed because you need to see that he's-

1:22:03They have to have him look up and see and see them all go away but it could have started there if you

1:22:08know they could have done that way. Yeah it's it's fine. A conversation we had last night was

1:22:14the at the end of Back to the Future it's a joke it's a great ending they say goodbye to the

1:22:21of the dock, Marty's back, everything's okay, he's with his girl, they're gonna go to the

1:22:26lake or whatever, it's all great. And then there's a great joke that ends the movie,

1:22:31which is he returns, he's gotta go to the future, they're gonna be married and their

1:22:35kids are in trouble, and where we're going we don't need roads, and it flies and it's

1:22:39the end, it's like "Yeah, that was the greatest ending ever!" And then you do a sequel and

1:22:43you're like "Oh man, well, we gotta pick it up from there." And it's interesting that

1:22:47I feel the movie kind of struggles for the first half hour because it's trying to live

1:22:52up to the joke at the end of the first movie. And I'm sure it, you know, it would have been,

1:22:58they could have told a better story from the beginning if they didn't have to kind of hit

1:23:04all the notes that are mentioned in that last scene. Because it's just kind of funny that

1:23:08they, they, by making such a great last scene of the first movie, they, they made their

1:23:12jobs for the sequel much harder. Because you have to deal with Jennifer and you have to

1:23:18deal with Biff. You have to deal with the kids, there have to be kids, the kids have

1:23:22to be involved and they have to be in trouble. And that's sort of like, they might have made

1:23:27different choices, but they have to live up to the joke from the first, which is a great

1:23:30joke at the end of the first movie. And it just changes the trajectory because they have

1:23:34to live up to it.

1:23:36then we get the fantastic theme the Back to the Future theme which I love so much

1:23:43it's great beautiful who scored this? It's Alan Silvestri I think? yes you're right

1:23:49you're right so Silvestri yeah it's John Williams esque in a way but it's

1:23:54Alan Silvestri but it's got that same kind of soaring orchestral you know it

1:23:59if you've seen the Back to the Future movies you know that theme so obviously

1:24:04we go to the future right in what is one of my most favorite... We're in 2015! Yes the impossible future of

1:24:162015 and this is probably I mean it's mainly for nostalgic reasons but this is

1:24:23my favorite scene of any movie ever because as a since being a little boy I

1:24:30I have just been obsessed with this scene. I love this scene when they arrive in the future

1:24:35Mainly that the scene from when Marty walks out into Hill Valley into the town square. That's what I love

1:24:42I love that scene so much

1:24:44Before that hilarious to me how they just put Jennifer in the trash, right? She's just

1:24:51We don't want you now, yeah, we don't want you in the movie

1:24:56So we're gonna put you to sleep and stick you over here with the garbage. It's great. We'll get you but and not leave you in

1:25:01the car and

1:25:03Because Biff is gonna steal it so or whatever the reason is, but it's just it's oh because you need to be kidnapped

1:25:08It's so bad because again, they don't they don't need her but she was in the first movie or at the end of the first movie

1:25:14So they've got to do something with her and that's not the only time this happens. They dump her on the front porch later - oh

1:25:19It's not it's not good. But then yeah, but then the doc has to go

1:25:25He's gonna delay Marty's son so that Marty can take his place and he basically says and actually this is a laugh-out-loud

1:25:31Funny joke, which is he says Marty you need to you look just like your son now

1:25:37you need to go out there go to the go to the 80s diner and

1:25:41Buy yourself a Pepsi. Here's a 50

1:25:45Yeah, that kills me. That just kills me. Here's a 50. Yeah. It's a very subtle joke, but it's excellent

1:25:54I'm drinking a Coke Zero right now, not a Pepsi Perfect, but I'm sure from the perspective of 30 years ago, both are equally ridiculous.

1:26:01Pepsi are releasing Pepsi Perfect this week. I know, I know. Like in very limited numbers. Like 3,000 of them for 50. I think it's $50.

1:26:08I think it's 50. It will cost you 50 to get a Pepsi Perfect.

1:26:11I wish I could get my hands on one easy. I want to buy everything that comes out this week.

1:26:15I'm hoping and praying and praying that Nike release on general release the shoes. The self-lacing shoes?

1:26:23They don't even need to be self-lacing. They just need to look like that, the boot shoes.

1:26:28Because they did them for charity, didn't they, a few years ago? I think so. They did,

1:26:31and they were like a thousand dollars. So Marty walks out and here it is, the world

1:26:36of tomorrow, which is a wonderful moment of like, well, what's the future going to be

1:26:40like? And here it is. It's bright and sunny and there's a movie theater that's showing

1:26:45Jaws 14 or whatever it is. 19. Now it's really personal or something like that? It's really,

1:26:52Really personal.

1:26:53Yeah, really, really personal.

1:26:55So I wanted to just, I have a list here of some of the key advancements that 2015 brings

1:27:02and I would like us to assess them.

1:27:04Yes.

1:27:05All cars are flying.

1:27:08Well most cars are flying and they're selling conversions for your old wheelies to be flying

1:27:14cars.

1:27:15That's actually an ad that I think Biff is involved somehow in the automotive industry

1:27:19at this point, right?

1:27:20Oh, there's Goldie Wilson.

1:27:21Oh it's Goldie the Third, that's right, and they're doing the conversions of your old wheeled cars to be the flying cars.

1:27:283D movies, which funnily enough in 2015 are maybe not as popular as they were in earlier years, but they are there, right? So that's one.

1:27:37Now this is the weird one, right, is my assumption. You're gonna have to explain this to me. The Cubs.

1:27:42The Cubs, sure. So there's a great gag in the movie where, and it's during Wednesday during the day,

1:27:50which is not right, because it's news alert that the Cubs have won the World Series.

1:27:56And World Series games are played at night. Not in the future.

1:28:01Even on the weekend, but so they missed the cynicism of that. But it's an announcement,

1:28:08maybe it's just delayed. They won the night before. But it's, the Cubs have won the World

1:28:14Series. Also, the World Series isn't going to be for another week because they've stretched

1:28:20out the playoffs a lot longer since 30 years ago. But the joke is the Cubs, the Chicago Cubs in

1:28:27Major League Baseball are one of the original National League teams. They've been playing

1:28:33since the early 20th century, since the National League came into being until in like 1902

1:28:40or something like that. And they haven't played in the World Series since 1945, and they haven't

1:28:48won the World Series since 1908, I believe. So yeah, so the joke is the Cubs won the World

1:28:58Series. So that's joke number one, because the Cubs haven't even been in the World Series

1:29:02in all this time. What's interesting is the Cubs are currently in the National League

1:29:06Championship Series against the Mets. So there is, as we record this, there is still a chance

1:29:10the Cubs will be in and maybe even win the World Series in 2015. Wouldn't that be amazing?

1:29:17The other joke is that they beat Miami. And there's a picture of like an alligator. So

1:29:22they're like the Miami Gators or something. And this is funny, and I had to explain this

1:29:26to my kids last night, because there's a major league team in Miami now, the Miami Marlins.

1:29:32in the National League like the Cubs so they couldn't meet in the World Series, but it

1:29:35is there. The joke is in 1985 or 1989 when this movie came out, there was no Major League

1:29:43Baseball team in Florida. So that's a joke that has come true and made it less funny

1:29:50because it's like against Miami. Well, that's in the wrong league, but yeah, that's a team,

1:29:54but it wasn't a team in 1989. So there's a couple little baseball jokes there. And what's

1:29:59funny is the writer of this movie is a St. Louis Cardinals fan who are actually the enemies

1:30:04of the Chicago Cubs and he was saying how when the Cubs and the Cardinals were playing

1:30:09in the previous round of the postseason here, he was saying, "Well, I would really rather

1:30:14the Cardinals win, but if the Cubs win, I'll look like a genius." So that's still active

1:30:19as we record this.

1:30:21Havoline goes into cars.

1:30:23Isn't that just like oil or something?

1:30:29Yeah, it's some kind of thing.

1:30:32Yeah, I was struck that there's still sort of a gas station.

1:30:35There's like a robot gas station and all of that.

1:30:38I was a little surprised that they hadn't like made them nuclear cars or electric cars or something like that.

1:30:43The way I take this is it's alternative fuel.

1:30:46And so I give it a tick because we now have electric.

1:30:50so we'll you know a half-tick. All right. Bionic implants is another one. Yeah. Um we I don't think

1:30:58we have those. Well we have a lot we have lots of you know we have people with cochlear ear implants

1:31:03and they're working on like artificial retinas and there are people with very sophisticated

1:31:07prostheses and things like that they don't have like because with Biff it's like his he's got

1:31:12bionic or grif or whatever his bionic implants are on the on the fritz and he's like yeah he's

1:31:17like a cyborg practically and it seems normal.

1:31:23Hoverboards.

1:31:24Hoverboards.

1:31:25So there is a thing called hoverboards now but it's not the same thing.

1:31:29No.

1:31:30It's just a smart marketing thing I suppose.

1:31:33Yes.

1:31:34Yeah.

1:31:35It's the right time if you're gonna have a product call it a hoverboard.

1:31:37We don't have...

1:31:38It's kind of interesting but you know.

1:31:39Flying cars and floating skateboards are not things that we have.

1:31:45games that you don't control with your hands. That's all we know, but it's what the kids

1:31:50mention.

1:31:51I love that scene where they're in the 80s diner, which I have to say actually I think

1:31:54they nailed... There's an article I read this week that said that they knew even when they

1:32:00were making the first movie, they knew they were making a bit of 80s nostalgia that Back

1:32:04to the Future is itself very 80s, aggressively 80s in a way that you wouldn't do if you were

1:32:11trying to make it sort of a little more timeless, but that they knew that since the movie was

1:32:15about looking at the 50s with nostalgia, that making the 80s be heightened was actually

1:32:20a good idea because then you get the contrast. And I think as time goes on, it also becomes

1:32:26about, you know, about 80s styles and it becomes its own period piece. And I thought that was

1:32:32interesting. They nail in Back to the Future II, they nail the 80s diner. Like, yeah, there's

1:32:38stuff that's not in there, but like the sign is very 80s, it's like I think they did from

1:32:45the perspective of 1989 they did a pretty good job of saying this is really 80s. And

1:32:51one of the things in there is a video game thing where Marty plays it and it's a shooter

1:32:56thing, which is totally a preview for Back to the Future Part III, which there are several

1:33:01of in this to set that up, but the kids are disgusted that you have to hold the controls

1:33:06and stuff which is very you know connect and stuff like that that's I think that's a good

1:33:11one.

1:33:13And the last one that I wanted to point out was when and this comes up later in the movie

1:33:17as well when the clock tower guy approaches Martin and asks him to donate money to the

1:33:21to save the clock tower he has a tablet like device in his hand with a fingerprint reader

1:33:25on it to debit the money it's Apple Pay is what I'm gonna go with there.

1:33:30It's Apple Pay except that he's got his own terminal instead of like Marty's.

1:33:36A personal device.

1:33:37Yeah, right, exactly right, or something that a person would tap.

1:33:41Instead it's just put your thumb on it, which, so it's not quite, but close.

1:33:46The cab is the other one.

1:33:47The cab when Biff gets a cab ride to Marty's house, is that it?

1:33:55Yeah, I think so.

1:33:56And it's like $130 or something is the cab fare because that's the running gag of everything's

1:34:00being all the inflation that's happened, which didn't happen actually. But the cab driver

1:34:06has, essentially, it's like a wireless pay terminal like you used to see and still sometimes

1:34:11see in cabs. A lot of them have them built in now, or they use smartphones. But that's

1:34:17a totally like, that's the technology. The only difference is that he thumbs the price

1:34:22instead of like, again, tapping a smartphone or running a card. They did a good job with

1:34:28that.

1:34:29I mean, I love all of it. I love everything about this scene. I love it all.

1:34:33What they don't get is like computers and the internet.

1:34:38Yeah. Or smartphones or anything. Nothing.

1:34:40Well, that's exactly it. Smartphones, the internet, there's still... Another thing that

1:34:44made me cackle throughout this movie is its reliance on the newspaper. Although, to be

1:34:48fair, USA Today is still being published.

1:34:51Yeah.

1:34:52And if you're in one of our fine American hotel rooms, you may receive the USA Today

1:34:56at your door whether you want it or not. So there is a 2015 USA Today edition. I wonder

1:35:03if they'll have a special logo on Wednesday.

1:35:05I hope they do, just a wrap. They just do like a wrap around the paper. That would be

1:35:10really cool.

1:35:11But that would be funny.

1:35:13Universal should pay for that.

1:35:15But there are newspapers as information sources and it's a motif, you know, they needed it

1:35:22in the 50s too, but it's just kind of funny that that's the thing. Just like we joke about

1:35:26this on the incomparable we were talking about the Flash TV show and how one of the plot

1:35:31points in the first episode of the Flash so I'm not really spoiling anything it's in the

1:35:34very first episode but there's a new there's basically a newspaper from the future and

1:35:39I could tell that they really wanted it to be a newspaper front page but the producers

1:35:44knew it and it's supposed to be from like 2025 or something and the producers like this

1:35:49kind of can't be a newspaper can it so it's like a web page from the future it's like

1:35:53a newspaper site from the future, which I'm not sure how that would work.

1:35:58Like does the HTML change when the timeline shifts?

1:36:02I don't know how that works.

1:36:03How far in the future?

1:36:04I think it's 10 years in the future.

1:36:06I still say you could go with newspapers.

1:36:08You could still go with newspapers.

1:36:09Yeah, but it's just, I think they like hedged it.

1:36:12It looks kind of like a newspaper, but it also looks sort of digital and it's the same

1:36:16thing.

1:36:17So anyway, there are newspapers used throughout and the information technology kind of revolution

1:36:20is the thing that most sci-fi stuff trying to project our future didn't see. Although

1:36:26I did, so when Biff and his crew come in and are harassing Marty Jr. and Marty and then

1:36:32later when they're having the hoverboard chase and all that, I did turn to my daughter who

1:36:36is 14 and say "Wow, teenagers in 2015 are awful." And she was like "yep."

1:36:45My main annoyance with the first act of this movie is the exposition.

1:36:50Like for example, when Biff is telling Marty, who Biff believes to be Marty McFly Jr, Marty's

1:36:59kid, about the fact that you know your dad, Marty McFly Sr, who flushed his life down

1:37:05the toilet.

1:37:07Every character has explained to them what their parents are like, and later on when

1:37:11there in the McFly home and Lorraine is explaining to Marty's daughter about the

1:37:21fact that you know you remember? As you know already daughter your father had

1:37:28this history and on that day when he had that accident and he broke his hand and

1:37:33that really changed the you know this is I mean people call this the as you know

1:37:36Bob phenomenon right which is like dialogue that is just a clunker because

1:37:40it's exposition, you're telling somebody who already knows things that they don't need

1:37:44to hear because the audience needs to hear it, and yeah, there's a whole lot of that

1:37:49in, because they're doing all that. Look, I like their projections of the future. I

1:37:57think that's fun, even though I don't love the beginning of this movie, I think that

1:38:01part is fun. But it becomes very clear, I think, when you step back a little bit, that

1:38:08The first like 40 minutes of this movie is really dedicated to putting all the pieces

1:38:15in place so that they can go back and play with the original movie.

1:38:19And you know, when they get to that point it's kind of great.

1:38:26But they do a lot of work to get it set up first and it's not as fun to watch the setup

1:38:31as it is to watch it pay off.

1:38:33They gotta do it and I think they do it the best way that they can but it is kind of annoying

1:38:37Like they try, you can see they're trying hard like to set it up so they can deliver the exposition.

1:38:42They're trying really hard.

1:38:44Yeah but there's no way around it. If you're gonna do it you just gotta do it.

1:38:47This scene, so this is in the cafe 80s scene when this exposition begins but this is also when

1:38:53another long-running theme in this movie begins which I think is great. They do a really really

1:38:57good job with the special effects to show the same actor in the same scene twice. Whilst watching

1:39:03this movie there is no scenario where it doesn't look real to me? No, I mean you

1:39:09can tell that it's locked down camera and all those things but Robert Zemeckis

1:39:13I mean if there's one thing that is all part of Robert Zemeckis' career it is

1:39:17trying to creatively use technology and you know we can argue that Zemeckis

1:39:22sometimes seems to make movies because he wants to use the technology rather

1:39:28than using them to solve solve problems. Like Polar Express for example. Well right exactly

1:39:34and when you know like there's a scene in Contact where Forest Gump is the biggest example

1:39:44he followed these movies with Forest Gump which where they put Tom Hanks into historical footage

1:39:48right and that was that was that was what that movie was this movie is all about split screen

1:39:55multiple actors or same actor playing different roles

1:39:58Yeah

1:39:59And there's a scene with Biff old Biff and young Biff in a car where where the camera is panning and they're handing things back

1:40:05To each other and you can tell it's like on one level

1:40:09It's really showy like look I handed this book to him where you're like that you're showing off on another level

1:40:13It's like how did he hand that book to him and that and and and it makes it seem more real at the same time

1:40:20as it's sort of calling out that it's being clever but

1:40:23But anyway in contact he did it something similar where he's like panning through glass that isn't there anymore or through a mirror and stuff like

1:40:29That he does this in his movies, but it's very impressive here

1:40:32And then when you talk about the different actors Michael J Fox his performance as the other members of his family is

1:40:40Incredible like when he plays Marty McFly jr. It's it's like a different person. I find anyway

1:40:48That I can watch this and I know who is who

1:40:52just by the way that they act. I think she does a great job of it.

1:40:56Yeah, yeah. I mean they're very brief and it's got a little of a gimmicky

1:41:01feel like it's, you know, the clumps or something like that. I don't know. It's

1:41:05like, "He'll play every part!" But it's a gag and it's obviously him,

1:41:10but they're differentiated. I mean, they're very broad characters.

1:41:14This is one of the problems I have with this future stuff is that it's

1:41:19so it's so broad all of it is so broad Marty senior is a loser and Marty jr. is

1:41:26an idiot and you know it is it is it is what it is but and every time I watch

1:41:34this movie I always forget and always take great joy in Marlene McFly so

1:41:39Marty's daughter I always forget that Michael J Fox dresses up as a young girl

1:41:45in this movie and every single time it just I just burst into into laughter

1:41:49because he does it's so funny like just the way that he like she like saunters

1:41:54down the stairs and looks around like when they go to the home later on it

1:41:57just it gets me every time I love it but before we leave the the clock tower area

1:42:03um I do love about this movie that it is throughout that they reenact scenes from

1:42:09the first movie so like they reenact the chase and and you know later at the end

1:42:15of the movie they reenact the manure going into Biff's car I love that I

1:42:20think this is why I sound like it's the most sequel-y sequel yes yeah I mean

1:42:24the hoverboard chase is a is a reenactment he exactly down to grabbing

1:42:28the you know grabbing the back bumper of a floating car in this case right and

1:42:31then Biff says there's something like so this is old Biff right who was Biff back

1:42:36in you know back in the past it's the older guy there's something very

1:42:39familiar about this. Yeah. Which is great. Yeah, I agree, I agree. Oh, here's a future

1:42:46thing. The McFlyer house is controlled with fingerprint entry and voice to turn on the

1:42:51lights. It's HomeKit, Jason. Yeah, and we hear computer voice a lot for voice interaction,

1:42:57but it sounds like Stephen Hawking's voice instead of like Siri or something like that,

1:43:03but it is. There's voice control. Although I did laugh that they have a smart door, but

1:43:07has no doorknob which is it's funny because you know it makes it more

1:43:12futuristic but really no doorknob. Why do you need a doorknob? But I mean they do

1:43:16that so Jennifer can't escape right? Yes exactly. That's why that's there and

1:43:20obviously fax machines. Yes the fax machines are hilarious. Marty is fired by

1:43:25fax and they arrives all over the house which is just so funny and then we get

1:43:31into so you know at this point we're let's just say we're back in 18.5 now

1:43:36right? So they've done everything they need in 2015, we go back to 85.

1:43:40Right, but it turns out that Biff has changed the timeline, so they go back to a dark, terrible,

1:43:45dystopian 1985. Marty can't believe it's 1985, but it is.

1:43:51This is the bit of the movie that over time has tainted the way that I feel about Back

1:43:55to the Future 2. It's too dark.

1:44:00It's way too dark, it goes on way too long, it's really unpleasant. I mean, they're setting

1:44:06up the stakes of "oh my god I can't believe it" but it goes it is so dark and it is so long and

1:44:11this is a movie where we're supposed to be having fun and like I guess it all it all it really

1:44:15should be is like "oh no they changed it things are wrong Biff's in charge now um my dad is dead

1:44:20I gotta go back" it does that there are elements which they can do and it's fine but the fact that

1:44:26there are kids driving around shooting everyone you know that's not needed the whole town is a

1:44:31a wasteland and and Marty's I mean Marty's mom is a recurring motif in

1:44:36these movies and so to see her with the plastic surgery and all of that but it

1:44:40goes on so long and there's that painful like argument where she completely you

1:44:45know basically Biff says but I won't pay money to your kids and they'll be

1:44:49destitute and she says okay well I'll stay and it's your problem where it's

1:44:52this is like horrible abusive relationship and it's like guys yeah

1:44:55yeah, okay, but this is supposed to be a fun movie and it's not fun. I agree with you,

1:45:03I think that is the worst segment of this movie. It didn't need to be this. Once the

1:45:08timeline is messed up and Biff messed it up to benefit himself, that's all we need really,

1:45:14I think.

1:45:15There are still some good parts in this act, I guess this is the second act, right?

1:45:20Yeah.

1:45:21But there are still some good parts in it but the overall feeling of it is not...

1:45:24It's sticky.

1:45:25- It's icky.

1:45:26- You know, this is where we get

1:45:27the alternate 1985 explanation, which I love.

1:45:30I love that scene.

1:45:31And I like the kind of, the chase, right?

1:45:34So once Marty is on to Biff, like I like that part, right?

1:45:38So when he's there,

1:45:40they're having that confrontation in the room.

1:45:42- Right, right.

1:45:42- And then they chase, he chases him up to the roof

1:45:44and then he jumps off the roof and he's on the DeLorean.

1:45:46- Yeah, I feel like that could have been the whole thing,

1:45:48was Marty and Doc come and Doc's gotta go check out his house

1:45:54and Marty sees that Biff is in charge, confronts Biff.

1:45:58Biff's like, "Oh, geez, they warned me you would be coming."

1:46:02And he sees his mom and it's all horrible.

1:46:04And he goes to the roof and Doc picks him up

1:46:06because Doc's found out that his timeline has changed too.

1:46:09And they go to the past.

1:46:10It could have been, I think it could have been a lot shorter

1:46:12and a lot less unpleasant.

1:46:13'Cause it's really unpleasant.

1:46:14And I get that they're trying to make them have reasons

1:46:17why they have to go and change the past to be right.

1:46:19Although really just changing it back to being right

1:46:22is reason enough.

1:46:23but to have us all have to squirm.

1:46:25- Oh, because your dad's dead.

1:46:26- Yeah, because your dad's dead,

1:46:28because Biff's in charge and he's awful, right?

1:46:29I mean, that's all it really takes.

1:46:32And yeah, it's kind of unpleasant.

1:46:34But you know what the good thing about this segment is?

1:46:37When it ends, this movie just goes into hyperdrive.

1:46:43Once they get to the fifties, this is fantastic.

1:46:47This is my favorite.

1:46:51I would say this is my favorite segment

1:46:52of the Back to the Future franchise is when they're playing around inside of the first

1:46:58movie because I love the first movie and this is what they've been setting up and boy it

1:47:03pays off even without Crispin Glover so they have to use his footage from the first movie

1:47:07I think that really works because they seamlessly blend kind of the footage from the first movie

1:47:11with the second in a way that that first scene didn't and so the and the whole rest of the

1:47:16story takes place during the other movie how great is that? It is genius and it's something

1:47:21that so many like cartoons and stuff have tried to touch on since right and you know

1:47:27you've seen different like ways that this has been done.

1:47:29There have been other takes, Doctor Who has done a little bit of this but not but this

1:47:32is just to take an iconic film and with many of the same actors a few years later because

1:47:38they know it's already iconic go back because it's a time travel story and be able to mess

1:47:43with it. I mean it is a it is a rare kind of thing to be able to do this and and they

1:47:48do it. For all my complaints about the first part of this movie, this part is just, it's

1:47:52so delightful.

1:47:53Yeah, it's, I love it. I think it's just spectacular.

1:47:56So great.

1:47:57You know, when I talk about the technical achievement, this is it. Like, and the editing

1:48:02and all of the work that must have gone in to do this, it's really, really, really superb.

1:48:06Yeah, the sound and you've got, you've got statues of dialogue from the previous movie

1:48:10happening in the background. There's that scene where Marty is in the principal's office

1:48:13and he hears the, you know, "Hey, you get your damn hands off her from Crispin Glover"

1:48:18the first movie happening outside and he turns around there's a moment where Marty sees himself

1:48:21and he's like whoa this is so you know and and and and Doc has the interaction where

1:48:26he hands the wrench to or the screwdriver to the wrench to himself yeah and and it's

1:48:32just that's all that's all just great stuff yeah and I do love the the scene in the in

1:48:38the principal's office that's just a good scene right when Marty's trying to hide and

1:48:41he gets his hand crushed and has to like silently scream yeah and yeah and then you know the

1:48:46punch that punching scene it's outside of the window it's woven back in so well

1:48:50yeah he goes over the the top of the stage when he's playing Johnny B. Goode

1:48:55the you know yeah I mean literally he's crawling through the film as we go it's

1:49:02amazing fantastic and then they have a hoverboard and car chase again right

1:49:07which is a final great final action set piece which ends in Biff going into

1:49:13manure. More manure? More manure. And you know this is why I wrote down the most

1:49:17sequel-y sequel ever and I just think it's perfect. And so and you've got the

1:49:21chance to do the time travel movie what what do you and again I'm gonna come

1:49:27back to Doctor Who because the the run the current era of Doctor Who with

1:49:32Steven Moffat in charge he's a very smart man who's been working in TV for a

1:49:36long time and he's been a lifelong Doctor Who fan and he is he has told

1:49:39it's obvious he had a list that he built up over his lifetime of stories you could tell with time travel.

1:49:45All the different ways that time travel could be involved.

1:49:47And historically, Doctor Who was sort of, you take the time machine somewhere and have an adventure.

1:49:51But with Steven Moffat, it's been adventures where the time machine is a part of the action.

1:49:55And I think about that because that's what happens in Back to the Future 2.

1:49:59And at the end, it's a super clever, great cliffhanger kind of moment that could only happen in a time travel franchise.

1:50:07is the DeLorean gets hit by lightning and disappears, and Marty is stranded in the 50s,

1:50:15and you wonder, "Oh my God, what's going to happen? What happened to Doc?" And a car drives

1:50:19up and a guy gets out, and he gives him a letter, and he says, "We've had this letter

1:50:23for 70 years. I'm from Western Union." And it's a letter from Doc from the Old West that's

1:50:28been waiting for him for 70 years. They said, "They said you would be here." There's actually

1:50:33an episode of Doctor Who that's just like this. They said you would be here. We had

1:50:38a bet about it and Doc's in the past. But it doesn't change the cliffhanger, which is

1:50:44what happens now? And so he goes and then we get our final little, so that's a great

1:50:48little wrinkle. And then we get the final little moment where we play with the first

1:50:52movie, which is Marty goes back to the future at the end of the first movie. Doc is there

1:50:57to help when the lightning hits the clock tower. The fire trails are on the street.

1:51:02is like, "Yes, I've sent Marty back to the future," and immediately Marty appears and

1:51:05goes, "Doc, I need your help," and he goes, "Gah!" So great. There's only one man who

1:51:10can help me now.

1:51:12And it's Great Scott, right? Great Scott passes out.

1:51:15Great Scott, and he passes out. But it's such a moment of like, I don't even know how you

1:51:19solve this, and the answer is you go talk to Doc. And that means that we end the movie,

1:51:24even though we've set up the sequel, the second sequel, we end the movie doing what the movie

1:51:29did best, which is play with something that we know very well from the first movie, which

1:51:34is that we've never seen Doc's perspective on what happens when Marty goes back to the

1:51:39future, right? Because we just go back with Marty, and now we get to see it, and it turns

1:51:43out what happens next to Doc is Marty from the future confronts him. That's great. So

1:51:49great. But the other thing that I don't like is how much of the third movie they show at

1:51:53the end. Like, they spoil the entire movie by showing what's coming up next. So it was

1:51:57unprecedented essentially to shoot these two sequels simultaneously and now they do that

1:52:05all the time. I was just reading an article about the Hunger Games, you know, the Mockingjay

1:52:09part one and two was all shot together and then released as two movies. Well that's what

1:52:13they do with Back to the Future and as a result they had both scripts, they seeded it with

1:52:17all these hints about what was coming, but I think they were worried that people can

1:52:22be angry that it ends on a cliffhanger even though I think it's really fulfilling as a

1:52:25a film but it ends on a cliffhanger and they wanted to show people what they were going

1:52:30to do next just so that they, I mean there's no dialogue but they show a whole lot of stuff

1:52:34that's old Westy. Yeah, in hindsight it could be less and give away less but they, I think

1:52:41they were really worried and the studio was really worried about how people were going

1:52:45to go out of the theater. Are they going to give good word of mouth about this movie if

1:52:49there's no promise, you know, if it ends on a cliffhanger? So they wanted to give everybody

1:52:52like a glimpse of what the third movie would be like. Yeah and I'm not I don't

1:52:57doesn't bother me that they did it it's just how much they show they show too

1:53:00much of the stuff that ends up being the cliffhanger like you know they they kind

1:53:05of end up showing that there's like a way out for them it ruins the movie that

1:53:09you know but I mean it's unfortunate I haven't seen Back to the Future part

1:53:14three in a while I need to go and watch that yeah I'm gonna we're gonna we're

1:53:18gonna watch that too that that one was shot in my hometown oh really yeah

1:53:22Yeah, the train in Back to the Future 3 is the Sierra Railroad, which is Jamestown, California,

1:53:30which is about four miles from where I grew up, and five, it's not a lot, very short distance,

1:53:36it's in the Sonora area, and they built all that, the Old West set up, it burned down

1:53:40like 15 years ago or something like that, but they built that Old West set out there

1:53:43because there's a little portion of the grasslands out there where the train runs by and it's

1:53:50not really visible from the highway and there are no, there are basically no structures

1:53:54visible so it's a really good double for the Old West. So they shot it.

1:53:58>>Oh, interesting.

1:53:59>>They shot it there and the whole cast and crew were in town for a couple weeks and then

1:54:02they shot a bunch of other like Westerns on it until it burned down. They, it was used

1:54:06again and again as a, as an Old West set because they had it.

1:54:10>>So I want to sum up and say that I continue to love this movie. Still one of my favorites.

1:54:16time I see it I just continue to love it. This would be my favorite if it wasn't for

1:54:23that, if the alternate 1985 wasn't so dystopian. That is something that really ruins it for

1:54:30me because it puts too much stress in a fun movie. And it wasn't, I didn't realize this

1:54:37until I watched it recently with Idina, it was her first time seeing it and she said

1:54:41she just didn't like the movie at all because of that because it really brought her down

1:54:47and I hadn't seen it from that perspective before and it might be why when I was younger

1:54:53I always forgot that that scene was in the movie maybe I was like blanking it out or

1:54:56something but yeah other than that I think other than that I actually do consider this

1:55:02to be a perfect movie there is so much about it that I love and what I love about movies

1:55:07I just think it does such a great job and I'm really happy that we covered it today.

1:55:12And I encourage everyone to if they have listened to this obviously I would expect a massive

1:55:18amount of people that are listening to this have seen this movie go watch it again it's

1:55:22the right time to do it.

1:55:23Yeah it is and what I would just say is I think half of this movie is is incredibly

1:55:27good and half of it I could really live without and fortunately it's right down the middle.

1:55:33So watch the first part because it's got some amusing things to say about what 30 years

1:55:37ago thought 30 years from then would be since we're living in it. The middle part is really

1:55:42dark and unpleasant and then the last part is fantastic. And we should also say if you're

1:55:46listening to this on upgrade you should also look if you enjoy us talking about movies

1:55:51you should go to the incomparable.com/mike for the Myke at the Movies feed where you'll

1:55:57find edited together just the movies parts of various relay podcasts where Casey and

1:56:03I watch movies with Myke.

1:56:04Yep, so you can and then you can listen to them in the future and this will appear in

1:56:07that feed in about a month.

1:56:09Yeah.

1:56:10Which it feels about right.

1:56:11So if you want to catch links for that and everything else we've spoken about in this

1:56:15week's episode head on over to relay.fm/upgrades/59.

1:56:19If you want to find Jason online he's at sixcolors.com and @jsnell on Twitter.

1:56:23I am @imike.

1:56:24I M Y K E. Thank you so much to Smile, GoToMeeting, stamps.com and Linda for supporting this episode

1:56:31And most importantly, thank you for listening.

1:56:34Watch out for the hoverboards. It is that time.

1:56:37Bye bye, everybody.

1:56:38Great Scott!

1:56:40I cannot love you more than I love you right now.

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