0:00:25at Lindo.com, Stamps.com, Fracture, and FanJule.
0:00:28My name is Myke Hurley, and I am joined in person
0:00:31to my left by Mr. Jason Snell.
0:00:33- I am leftmost, hello.
0:00:35- Hello, and we have Steven Hackett's back again.
0:00:37- I was told this was clockwise, is this not clockwise?
0:00:40- It's a totally different show.
0:00:42Thank you so much for filling in for me.
0:00:43I enjoy listening to the episode very much.
0:00:46- Good, it was a lot of fun to do it.
0:00:47You were on a plane.
0:00:49- I think I just got off my first flight.
0:00:51I was in Canada at the time.
0:00:54and I saw the little notification that you were going live
0:00:57and it made me very happy and I listened to it back later on
0:01:00and as I watched the Apple event when I arrived in Portland,
0:01:03just sat for a few hours, watched the video.
0:01:06So yeah, I feel like I'm kind of caught up,
0:01:08but we're having a good time here in XOXO.
0:01:10- Yeah.
0:01:11Yeah, this is like a, it's like half upgrade,
0:01:14half connected, it's weird.
0:01:15- Yeah. - Strange.
0:01:15- Mixing it all up.
0:01:17I thought we'd just talk about some of the Apple stuff.
0:01:19I've got some thoughts that I wanna share
0:01:20that obviously I haven't been able to share yet
0:01:21so I'm excited to do those.
0:01:23Myke was right and continues to be right. So we're going to go through that a bit
0:01:28today I think and maybe talk about XOXO a little bit. But first I want to start off
0:01:32with a little story, Jason, about what happens if you have a very, very light computer. Would
0:01:39you like to tell the world what happens if you own an 11-inch MacBook Air?
0:01:43So I'm driving to the airport to come up here on Thursday and I'm listening to the
0:01:52The Accidental Tech Podcast, a podcast about technology you may be familiar with.
0:01:57At one point, Marco says, "You know, I'd rather have an 11-inch MacBook Air than an
0:02:02iPad Pro."
0:02:04And I suddenly go, "Huh?"
0:02:09And have this moment of, "I don't think I brought my laptop with me.
0:02:14I think it's still charging for the flight at home."
0:02:17and I rip open my bag and stick my hand in the little spot where the laptop goes.
0:02:25There's nothing there.
0:02:26And where were you at this point?
0:02:28Oakland.
0:02:29I was halfway to the Oakland airport.
0:02:30I was at the junction of the 880 and 980 freeways in traffic.
0:02:37So I had about two minutes to sit in traffic before I would turn around to decide if I
0:02:41wanted to go to Portland without my laptop.
0:02:44When I have a couple of podcasts I need to edit and I don't have those files with me
0:02:49without the laptop or whether I just want to turn around.
0:02:52And I decided that although there were interesting things to see here, the real big meat of the
0:02:58conference didn't start until Friday.
0:03:00And spending another day at home when I've got a lot of work to do is, you know, I could
0:03:05do that.
0:03:06And so I turned around and I went home because there's no way I could go back home and get
0:03:10the laptop and then come back and make my flight.
0:03:12I left myself time but I didn't leave myself enough time to go to the airport and back
0:03:17twice, which John Seracusa told me is how he lives his life.
0:03:22You got to be able to just expect to turn around at the airport and go back home again,
0:03:27do a lap.
0:03:28You need a pack-in list my friend.
0:03:30You know, I've never done this before and honestly the reason I did it, I did it out
0:03:35of the sequence because I was concerned that I wasn't going to have the files and I was
0:03:38going to forget. So it was actually in a place that it isn't normally, specifically because
0:03:43I was trying to be sure I didn't forget it.
0:03:49It seemed to have worked really well.
0:03:50Yeah, it's a great system.
0:03:51I'm going to go back to my old system now.
0:03:53You've already got a fail-safe system going on there, Jason.
0:03:56I'm going to go back to my old system. But I'm on a winning streak now, because the
0:04:00next day I flew to Portland and I had all my stuff with me.
0:04:03Excellent.
0:04:04Jason was it you years ago when the MacBook Air first came out talking about losing it
0:04:09in a stack of magazines?
0:04:10That was not me.
0:04:11It was someone.
0:04:12That was an article.
0:04:13Was it David Pogue who recycled his MacBook Air?
0:04:15Yeah that's what it was.
0:04:16What?
0:04:17It was David Pogue or maybe it was Steven Levy.
0:04:19It was a guy I think of as a New York guy and they got the Sun in New York Times and
0:04:23they recycled it and they recycled the MacBook Air with it.
0:04:27Which is, that's an awkward call to Apple PR.
0:04:29It is recyclable aluminum.
0:04:31But it's true.
0:04:32Non-BVC.
0:04:33sure that they… yeah that was a great call to Apple PR. I lost… I think I may have
0:04:38put it in with the Sunday Times. So yeah, not good. So I got here a day late and a dollar
0:04:48short.
0:04:49We've got a lovely little Mac.
0:04:50Yeah and I got it. It's here. I actually didn't need to bring it as badly because
0:04:53I did a lot of that podcast editing work on Thursday night when I had nothing else to
0:04:57do.
0:04:58So we're at that time of year, the great time of year where we have an abundance of
0:05:02news. It's even wassa because last week obviously Apple announced everything.
0:05:06Every... all the things. 100% of everything. All the great things. Except for the Mac.
0:05:11Yeah we'll get to that. I want to talk a little bit about the event and further just put a
0:05:17point on why I think I was right about the iPads. Oh yes, tell me more. So obviously
0:05:22the whole thing being I said that I believed that they would put iPads in the iPhone event
0:05:27so they could promote the iPad with the world watching. That was my original thought. After
0:05:33watching the event, I think that Apple really made a point of this because they put the
0:05:39iPhones at the end this time. They were making people wait. That's my theory. They wanted
0:05:45people to see the iPad, they wanted them to see the Apple TV, so they put the iPhones
0:05:49right at the end of the event.
0:05:50I think they always do that.
0:05:51Well, last year the watch event was first.
0:05:55Because of the watch. I think usually the iPhone goes last because it's the big thing,
0:06:00but they wanted the watch to be bigger.
0:06:02I actually think considering the way that Apple works now over the last couple of years,
0:06:08and they are a Q4 company.
0:06:10Oh yeah, so seasonal.
0:06:12I think having just one event, you set up the entire lineup of products for the holiday
0:06:17season and just let it go. I think it's a smart move. For me, it works. I like it. You
0:06:23You just do it all in one go.
0:06:25Everybody knows what's there.
0:06:26You say we've got things coming out in September, October, November, and then just let it run.
0:06:31I can see that.
0:06:33The second event is never going to be as effective as the first event.
0:06:38And just from a logistical, I know we can talk about Apple is so big and they've got
0:06:41so much money, but the fact is it's a distraction to, I talked to, when I talk to like Apple
0:06:47PR people and other people who work at Apple about it, it's like these events are insane.
0:06:52They kind of tore up…
0:06:53It must be all consuming for these people.
0:06:55My understanding is like the seats in the venue and everything were installed by Apple.
0:06:58Like they took that venue in San Francisco for a couple of weeks and built the set essentially
0:07:06for their presentation.
0:07:08You know, yes they could do a second smaller presentation in something like Town Hall on
0:07:13campus but you know they still have to plan it and invite people and do all that stuff
0:07:18and there is a cost to that and it is a distraction.
0:07:23So I can see from that perspective why Apple would maybe want to…
0:07:27Also Apple can call journalists for briefings and can do press releases and can do video
0:07:32releases and things.
0:07:33Apple can release a product without an event if it wants to.
0:07:36So it's not like it has to have an event.
0:07:38If there are new Macs to drop, they don't need an event for that.
0:07:41They can do that and still get publicity for it.
0:07:44Right. You know, talking about going into this venue and spending all this time and
0:07:49money, you know, Campus 2 has a huge underground auditorium planned. And so you can't help
0:07:54but think that a lot of that has to do with this amount of work, where if they have a
0:08:00space that they control completely and it's exactly the way they want it.
0:08:04Right. They'll just invite everybody there.
0:08:05Yeah.
0:08:06Well, and they can have it. They can run practices on it.
0:08:10Yeah.
0:08:11It's like, you know, there's always that game of like websites trying to figure out
0:08:15where Apple is booked in San Francisco.
0:08:17And…
0:08:18Which I love this year because they actually showed that document that went through the
0:08:20San Francisco city government that showed a star or square will be placed here.
0:08:25It's like, "That's an Apple logo."
0:08:27Yeah.
0:08:28So, I mean, I think once Campus 2 is up and running, some of the headache would go away.
0:08:32Yeah.
0:08:33You know, it's going to make a longer trip for you though.
0:08:36Yeah, that's fine.
0:08:37They have…
0:08:38I understand they have plenty of parking down there.
0:08:39Yeah.
0:08:40- It's just one of those things you do at Apple
0:08:44over the years.
0:08:45Their events have gotten bigger and sort of more involved.
0:08:50Of course, they don't do the thing,
0:08:51I love when you watch the old keynotes
0:08:52where like an iMac comes out on a moving podium.
0:08:55It like spins around.
0:08:57- Yeah, they used to do that where someone,
0:08:58there would always be like a podium by the side of the stage
0:09:00and they'd go and just take the little cloth off.
0:09:02But now like Tim seems to,
0:09:04his way is to come from side of the stage
0:09:07with the product over his head.
0:09:08- Well, it used to be heavier.
0:09:09You can't hold an iMac G3 above your head. You'd be crushed to death.
0:09:13But that's Tim's thing. I quite like it. He kind of just like swamps us across the stage
0:09:18with the thing above his head.
0:09:19And smiling because he knows that all the news photographers are taking the pictures
0:09:22and those are the pictures that'll be with all the stories about it.
0:09:24He understands that stuff. Like saying about that, he's gonna be on… whose show is it?
0:09:30Stephen Colbert.
0:09:31Colbert. That's crazy, right?
0:09:32Well, I mean, Stephen Colbert was in an Apple event. In the Apple Watch event.
0:09:36Yeah.
0:09:37Trade-off.
0:09:38So, I think that's one of the things, not to get too deep down in TV stuff, you can
0:09:44listen to my TV Talk Machine podcast for more about that.
0:09:48Plug.
0:09:50Colbert is doing some interesting things in terms of, I mean he's obviously, he likes
0:09:54tech stuff, he likes Apple stuff, but he's trying to get an interesting mix of guests
0:09:58on his show.
0:09:59He doesn't want it to just be like movie actors.
0:10:02And so he's had politicians on and he had Elon Musk on and he's going to have Tim
0:10:07Cook on and I think that's all good. So it'll be interesting to see that and how
0:10:11Apple plays the CEO of Apple on a late night talk show thing.
0:10:15Yeah. This is one of those things where I'm not going to be able to watch that easily.
0:10:18This is a frustrating thing that I always find.
0:10:20Right, because you'll be like geo-blocked from watching.
0:10:22Yeah. It's like, you know, then I have to like wait for the YouTube stuff and then I
0:10:26can maybe try and find it. But it's just one of those examples where it's like, just
0:10:29let me watch it.
0:10:30Yeah.
0:10:31Here's five pounds. I will give you. Just let me watch this one.
0:10:33I don't understand why shows that don't sell, I mean some late night shows from America
0:10:39air in Britain.
0:10:40Yeah.
0:10:41I don't think Colbert does.
0:10:42Yeah, so if you don't, then there should be a worldwide something or other.
0:10:46Just let me give you some money.
0:10:47Yeah.
0:10:48Like I don't know, just here's some money.
0:10:49Yeah.
0:10:50Show me the ads, whatever.
0:10:51Like, just.
0:10:52But hey.
0:10:53For the American products you can't buy.
0:10:55Can we go back to the iPad Pro a little bit?
0:10:57Yeah, yeah.
0:10:58Because obviously I haven't had any way to talk about this yet.
0:11:01This is essentially our second upgrade in less than a week because we did the episode
0:11:04on Wednesday, you and I, Steven, pointing at Steven. It's good podcasting, nobody
0:11:09can see it. And now we're doing one recording on Sunday. So this is more like if ever there
0:11:16was a week to do this, this is it. We've had a little more time to think about it now.
0:11:19Myke's just been podcasting by himself in his hotel room.
0:11:22It's very sad.
0:11:23He's like talking to the hotel clerk, like, "What do you think about the Apple pencil?"
0:11:27He's holding the hairdryer and talking into it like it's a microphone.
0:11:30What do you like to be known for?
0:11:32So I like the look of the iPad Pro.
0:11:35I think it's an interesting product.
0:11:38I'm still trying to understand a little bit about why it exists.
0:11:42I think Apple did a really good job of bringing the companies that they needed on stage.
0:11:48Because I think, remember, me and you were talking about why, what was it, when we were
0:11:53saying Adobe should be there.
0:11:54I think it was at the last event.
0:11:57Oh yeah, where they did the metal stuff.
0:12:00And they did game demos and they didn't bring up Adobe.
0:12:02And so Adobe were there.
0:12:03They did a great demo.
0:12:05I mean, there was some questionable stuff
0:12:06about some of the content in it.
0:12:08But the applications themselves were very good.
0:12:11Creative professionals working on the iPad
0:12:14was-- everything was right about it except the detail.
0:12:18The example they gave was really awful.
0:12:21Yeah, that was just ridiculous.
0:12:23one of those complete oversights where it's like this seems like a great idea but they
0:12:27just absolutely screwed it up.
0:12:29I thought it was fitting in the sense that just as a brief tangent on what we're talking
0:12:33about is they have this plug-in that makes, they made a woman, a model smile more and
0:12:39that plays into all those sort of like women often are told like even walking down the
0:12:43street you should smile honey and things like that. It's really offensive to a lot of
0:12:47women that this is reinforcing that but I also looked at that and thought well this
0:12:52is Photoshop right? I mean Photoshop is all about unrealistic images of everybody. That's
0:12:58what Photoshop is. But if we get beside the details of it, it was like an old school Mac
0:13:04kind of thing. It was a creative professional like we're going to do a mock-up layout
0:13:08and we're going to edit these images and it's all happening on the iPad. And that
0:13:12was an intentional and I think smart thing to be like, "Hey, remember Adobe and Microsoft?
0:13:18giants of office and creative work on your computer, here they are on the iPad Pro.
0:13:25So one of the things I liked with what they were doing with the apps is it seemed like
0:13:29the guy was editing an image in one app with the split screen on the iPad and he was able
0:13:34to just make it appear in the other app, like it was using some sort of shared file architecture,
0:13:39maybe it's iCloud, maybe it's something else.
0:13:41But I just liked that these two apps were talking to each other whilst next to each
0:13:45other like that.
0:13:46And as I see in stuff like that looked really great.
0:13:48Like when Microsoft was showing off,
0:13:50I think it was Excel and PowerPoint,
0:13:52and they were like taking a table
0:13:54and you move it into the other one.
0:13:55And it really felt like a great way
0:13:58to use these kind of split screen applications.
0:14:00Although it did point out that the drag and drop doesn't
0:14:06exist in iOS 9.
0:14:07Right.
0:14:08Developers have to-- if you're using two Adobe apps,
0:14:10especially Microsoft apps, you are using
0:14:11things that they have built. It's not
0:14:13like the Microsoft demo a couple years ago,
0:14:15where you can bring things and it's context aware and content aware where you can pick
0:14:19an image up and move it over, you still have to jump through iOS's janky file sharing stuff
0:14:26to do it.
0:14:27So what Microsoft did, they didn't even do file sharing, what Microsoft did was say,
0:14:30"Look, you can make a chart in Excel and put it in Word," and they did copy and paste.
0:14:34Which works, but again, it's like, why did you do copy and paste and not drag and drop?
0:14:39The answer is, we don't have drag and drop in iOS.
0:14:41It doesn't, it's like, we just have split screen now.
0:14:43I feel like that's next time.
0:14:46I think you're right.
0:14:47I think this is, a lot of my feelings about the multitasking features in iOS 9 are, you
0:14:51know, it's a first go and that presumably they will keep going with it.
0:14:54I kind of wish they had started down this road two years ago.
0:14:57But, you know, here we are.
0:14:59The understanding is they've been trying to do this for a long time.
0:15:02Because it seems like for the last couple of years this has kept coming up.
0:15:05And you have to have more RAM in your products too.
0:15:07So for them to do this sooner they would have had to put two gigs of RAM in the iPad Air
0:15:13It would have to have made a much bigger jump than what they did in a much, much shorter
0:15:20period of time.
0:15:21So some of this is constrained by the technology and it's not Apple.
0:15:24It's not just Apple kind of not paying attention to productivity and iOS, although I think
0:15:28it is that too, but I think some of it is the devices just weren't powerful enough
0:15:33to do this stuff before.
0:15:36The device itself is interesting to me.
0:15:38The stereo speakers, the accessory port.
0:15:41All of this stuff is like, hey, it feels like a departure from what we know an iOS device
0:15:47to be.
0:15:48There is some stuff in the iPad Pro which is like, this is a definitely in between device
0:15:55now because they're like, they're opening up in different ways.
0:15:57They worked with Logitech in the background and Logitech have made a keyboard as well.
0:16:02It's unclear to me whether that Apple keyboard is actually made by Logitech.
0:16:08- Are they saying that they're using those new keycaps
0:16:10so it feels like an Apple one?
0:16:11- I don't know, or is it a collaboration?
0:16:13I don't know.
0:16:14Maybe, maybe not.
0:16:16We may never know.
0:16:17But the fact that Logitech is their day one
0:16:19with their own bigger--
0:16:21- It's like an actual plastic--
0:16:22- Thicker. - Moving keyboard
0:16:24rather than the semi-membrane keyboard that Apple made.
0:16:27- Fabric, basically, is being used in that.
0:16:30No, I think it's a good question
0:16:32about whether this is an oddball product
0:16:35that it's only on the iPad Pro,
0:16:36or what seems to be, I think, more likely,
0:16:38which is an iPad Air 3 next year--
0:16:43- Will come towards that.
0:16:45- Would have that accessory port and, you know, yeah,
0:16:49it would seem a little bit more,
0:16:51pick up some of these features of the top of the line iPad.
0:16:54- I feel like what we're gonna see now is
0:16:57in the way that the Air trickles down to the Mini,
0:17:00the Pro will trickle down to the Air
0:17:02and then it just goes that way.
0:17:04So the Pro keeps moving forward,
0:17:05and the Air picks up some of those features.
0:17:07- So in nine years, the iPad Mini will get it.
0:17:10- But I think one of the things that we'll see now
0:17:13is that the iPads get revved every two years.
0:17:17- I think that's right.
0:17:18I mean, the Mini is now caught up with the Air 2,
0:17:21but the Air 2 didn't get an update this year.
0:17:23- So it will be next year.
0:17:24- Right, and if you look at,
0:17:25we've all talked about this, right,
0:17:26the iPad upgrade cycle problem
0:17:29where some people buy them every year,
0:17:31but the vast majority of people go two, three, four years,
0:17:34even how many iPad 2s are still running around.
0:17:37And so if you're Apple, why invest
0:17:40and put the R&D, put the engineering in
0:17:44to upgrade every product every year,
0:17:46why not go to a more Mac-like schedule
0:17:48where something like an iMac or a MacBook Air
0:17:50that they sell more of gets upgraded more frequently
0:17:53than a Mac Mini or a Mac Pro?
0:17:54It just makes sense to apply that sort of logic
0:17:56to the iPad at this point.
0:17:57- Right, there will always be new iPads every year,
0:18:01but not all the iPads will be new.
0:18:04Right. And I think that's fine. I mean, I think it's, if we're moving into a world
0:18:09where the iPad is more of a general computing device, it's not something most people are
0:18:15going to upgrade every year. Clearly that's already the case.
0:18:17Yeah, definitely not.
0:18:18And so why not adjust to that?
0:18:22I want to talk about my dream of the iPad Pro. Lay down on the couch over there, Myke,
0:18:29and I'll just think about it.
0:18:30And I'll just think about it. Before, though, I want to talk about lynda.com.
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0:20:37So I'm about a year in now to being full time and using all of my own devices to do
0:20:44all of my own work.
0:20:46Right there with you?
0:20:47Yeah exactly.
0:20:48So I now feel like I am at a point where I know how I use my devices and I'm thinking
0:20:54about making some changes.
0:20:56Like sometimes when I throw my Mac Pro out the window, so I'm thinking about when the
0:21:01iMacs get revved, I may be getting myself one of the new ones, one of the retina guys,
0:21:06because my kind of setup has changed to the point now where I think that makes a little
0:21:10bit more sense for me.
0:21:13So what I have been finding recently is I'm now moving more to using the desktop machine
0:21:19at home.
0:21:20So previously the Mac Pro was just a production machine, but I got a nice new monitor for
0:21:25it.
0:21:26really large monitor now which is why I think the iMac might be a great addition.
0:21:30So now at home when I'm working I'm just using the Mac Pro. I'm using it for all recording,
0:21:36I'm using it for most of my work now. So the MacBook that I have is basically only being
0:21:41used when I'm not at home. So like when I'm here or when I work somewhere. So I'm thinking
0:21:47about what could the iPad Pro bring to this setup. Could it be that I use an iMac and
0:21:54the iMac and an iPad Pro and then the MacBook is something that lives in a cupboard that
0:22:00only comes with me on trips if I need to edit a podcast or something like that. Or maybe
0:22:04there's a world in which someone will actually make a really good audio editor for the iPad.
0:22:10So from what I'm doing most of the time when I take these trips is editing a show. So if
0:22:14that sort of stuff could exist I'm wondering like is this a potential product that could
0:22:19be really good for me. I think, you know, I am a pen guy, I'm a pencil guy, I like to
0:22:24take notes, handwritten notes. I'm really interested to see how the Apple Pencil, not
0:22:29a good name, they should have called it the Apple Pen. I don't know why they thought Pencil
0:22:34was better than pen. It doesn't make sense to me, it's too long, it's too many syllables
0:22:39in my opinion. Apple Pen could have been fine, I don't know why it's an Apple Pencil. I mean
0:22:45it's the shape of a pencil, but pencils and pens look, anyway.
0:22:47#mikewiswrong.
0:22:48Yeah, I don't I don't yeah, but that product is
0:22:51Very interesting to me. I think Apple may have made some interesting decisions like there isn't a way to store it
0:22:58In any way right like that that little case should have something you can just slide it into or a little magnet place that it
0:23:05Yeah, magically clips on to or something
0:23:08I don't know why it's just this thing that will float around and inevitably get lost
0:23:13My other issue with the iPad Pro is the cost of the accessories and the fact that neither of them are included.
0:23:19Yeah.
0:23:19I think that that is a...
0:23:21frustrating thing.
0:23:24Welcome to being an Apple customer.
0:23:25I know, but they're expensive as well.
0:23:27They are, I mean if you, even if you do the base iPad Pro, you're spending, was it $99 with the pencil and
0:23:33$169 for the keyboard?
0:23:35I mean you've laid out another good chunk of change and to be fair the Microsoft Surface keyboard is a hundred and...
0:23:42Yeah, it's similar. And third-party, I just reviewed a bunch of third-party iPad Air keyboards and they're all cost say 60 to 120 dollars.
0:23:51I mean I agree. I mean I know that this is how it always is, but it's like because the iPad Pro is so expensive to begin with,
0:23:59it would be nice to have a keyboard. Right.
0:24:02It's like the cost of a laptop, but you don't have to buy the laptop keyboard extra. Exactly. Like you don't pay for a trackpad.
0:24:08I would love a trackpad. Okay, give us an extra $50 and we'll put a trackpad on your MacBook.
0:24:12Like that's not what happens and I feel like considering the amount that Apple seemed to be like these go together
0:24:19We built a whole new port for it. Like come on just throw it in. Yeah, I do wonder
0:24:24And I don't know if we'll ever see this data from Apple or from you know people
0:24:28Who look at this sort of thing?
0:24:31professionally
0:24:32But I do wonder what the adoption rate is gonna be of the pencil and the keyboard or people gonna buy an iPad Pro because
0:24:38is a bigger iPad, are they gonna buy it with the pencil?
0:24:41My guess is that the pencil will be more successful
0:24:46than the keyboard, not only because of price,
0:24:48but sort of what you could do with it, you know?
0:24:50- You can't do what you can do with the pencil
0:24:54with anything else. - Right.
0:24:55- But you can type on an iPad with the virtual keyboard.
0:24:58- Or you can-- - Yes, and it's full-sized.
0:25:01- Yeah, yeah, and it's got Bluetooth,
0:25:02you can do Bluetooth keyboards if you don't like Apple
0:25:04and you can do something else.
0:25:05- Buy the Logitech one, you can do lots of options.
0:25:08I mean I use the Apple aluminum keyboard with my iPad.
0:25:11- Me too. - I have a little stand
0:25:12and I pair it 'cause I'm really fast on that keyboard.
0:25:14- Something else about the pencil,
0:25:16Myke you were talking about,
0:25:17like there's no place to store it and all that.
0:25:20One of the other interesting things that I noticed
0:25:22is that it doesn't have an eraser
0:25:24because instead the top is the cap with the lightning
0:25:29under it, which is also a weird choice.
0:25:30It's a weird choice.
0:25:31Man, my understanding is it doesn't--
0:25:32- So I'm sure in the demo,
0:25:34one of the people used the upper end.
0:25:36- Are you sure?
0:25:37I remember it.
0:25:38- Because that's where the cap is for the...
0:25:40- You could still make that.
0:25:41- All right, maybe.
0:25:43- 'Cause all it needs to do is just recognize
0:25:44it's a different...
0:25:45- It's a different shape.
0:25:47- Yeah, because... - Well, maybe it does then.
0:25:48I don't know that.
0:25:49I know it's weird.
0:25:50My point, larger point was it's interesting
0:25:53that this is a device with a male lightning connector on it
0:25:57because the good thing is it means you can just stick it
0:26:02into the female lightning port on the iPad Pro and it charges.
0:26:08And break it off.
0:26:09This is my problem. I don't think that that is a...
0:26:11I understand that the reason that they're doing that,
0:26:13because you can plug it in and it's always there,
0:26:15but how do you charge it long periods of time?
0:26:18Put your iPad down and then the pencil just sticks out the side?
0:26:20Yeah.
0:26:21That's the mystery that I have is, you know,
0:26:25is there a special charger for it or a special cable for it or something?
0:26:29it or something or you just expected to just lay your iPad down and stick it in.
0:26:33If they had a little stand that had a, you know, a female lightning port and you
0:26:38just sit it down on top of it like when you're done with the workday and it's
0:26:41waiting for you when you get back, but if you're gonna charge it overnight you
0:26:45can't charge the iPad and the pencil at the same time unless Apple makes
0:26:48something else. It just seems like an odd choice and it does seem to your point,
0:26:52Myke, like I would be nervous about breaking that thing off.
0:26:57So many people are going to end up with lightning connectors
0:27:01stuck in-- like snapped off and stuck in.
0:27:04Looking at the site, I don't think it does have an eraser.
0:27:06I think you're right.
0:27:08But this is kind of what I was looking for.
0:27:12Weirdly, it's--
0:27:13Yeah, I need the pen take here, pen users take.
0:27:16Well, I mean, so--
0:27:17I don't have that.
0:27:18The key thing that Apple have done,
0:27:20which is exactly what we know anybody that's used this stuff
0:27:23and we know they needed to do, was
0:27:25to do something about the touch screen, which is exactly what they've done.
0:27:29So it didn't add pressure sensitivity, but they increased the refresh, which means that
0:27:35it's very low latency, and then like all of these other iPad pen manufacturers, they put
0:27:41all the pressure sensitivity in the pen.
0:27:43In the pen itself.
0:27:44Soul, pencil.
0:27:45Because I think Wacom make one like this, where you put a receiver into the iPad currently,
0:27:53it connects with Bluetooth, and it can do exactly what this does. But obviously Apple
0:27:57can build it in and it's much more elegant.
0:28:02So I'm going to take the plunge with the iPad Pro, and my plan is to go all in.
0:28:08All they needed to do was put a pen on it.
0:28:11You've got to put a pen on it, that's what they say in Portland. But I am still unconvinced
0:28:19if I will keep it.
0:28:21That's my, because I don't know if this is the product
0:28:24that I want, but I feel like considering the way that I am
0:28:28and like, you know, especially with the pencil
0:28:31and the digital input like that,
0:28:33I feel like I really want to understand
0:28:37how this product could work for a non-artist.
0:28:41This is so obvious for an artist,
0:28:43but what is the use of this to the average consumer?
0:28:49I'm, I'm, the iPad Pro is a really interesting product because it is heralding something
0:28:55that I don't think currently exists, which is people doing a lot of work on the iPad.
0:29:02There are outliers, we all know one of them.
0:29:04Yes.
0:29:05But it really isn't a device that's built for many people to do their work easily.
0:29:10Federico has got it to the point where he can do his work easily, but it took an incredible
0:29:14amount of work for him to get there.
0:29:17And it's the difference between can you get work done on the iPad and will anybody
0:29:23want to put in the effort to get work done on the iPad or can it be effortless?
0:29:27>> Because his situation was he had no choice, everybody knows the story.
0:29:30So he did it and knowing how I do and how he works, he couldn't do the type of stuff
0:29:36that he does on a Mac now.
0:29:38He couldn't do it in the same way and it would be more difficult for him because this
0:29:40is the product that he uses.
0:29:42So I wonder like I've started to use my iPad Air a lot more these days.
0:29:47And I wonder how much work could I get done on a product like this?
0:29:51Because I've looked at the surface for a long time and thought,
0:29:54that is a form factor that is incredibly interesting to me.
0:29:58This is a tablet, but you can connect some stuff to it.
0:30:02And the great thing about what Microsoft does for their sins at times,
0:30:06you can do everything on it.
0:30:07Yeah.
0:30:09I wrote a piece for my explaining Apple to Windows IT people column
0:30:15that I do on the Windows SuperSite about this.
0:30:20The knock on the surface, and I think it's accurate, is it is a compromised vision because
0:30:26it is both.
0:30:27It's better now than it was with Windows 8, Windows 10 that makes this better, but
0:30:32it's a tablet when it's a tablet and it's a PC when it's not.
0:30:36If you want to bring a keyboard and a mouse, you can make it into a PC.
0:30:43neither, it's both. Apple went the other direction where it's like the Mac is the
0:30:48Mac and the iPad is the iPad which is great. So you can say the Surface is kind of a compromised
0:30:52you know, hybrid product. At the same time, if you need, if you want to take an iPad but
0:30:58there's some things you have to do on a Mac, the compromise there is you have to
0:31:02bring both. That's still a compromise. It's just a different kind of compromise. In the
0:31:07long run I think Apple will be seen to have made the right decision to not retrofit Mac
0:31:12OS for a tablet. But in the short run, what it does is make us notice that iOS is not
0:31:21up to everything that probably it needs to be able to do yet. Because it's a young
0:31:27operating system, but it's still not there yet. And not that it can't be coaxed and
0:31:31not that people like Federico can prove that work can be done there, but it's all a little
0:31:37too hard and Apple hasn't helped. Until this year, Apple hasn't tried to make it
0:31:41any easier. They still did not show first-party software at this event. I was expecting a
0:31:47pro app that they have not given us. Yeah, well it's interesting that they went to,
0:31:53that you know the original iPad was launched with iWork. Yep. And here they brought Microsoft
0:32:00and Adobe on stage. Which was great. I mean that. It's a victory lap at 8 days, right?
0:32:04Which is look who's here, we don't need to even make our own software now for this platform
0:32:07because look who's here.
0:32:08>> Microsoft doing what they're doing with Office, it's like they're putting a nail in
0:32:12their own coffin.
0:32:13But this is new Microsoft, right?
0:32:16Because the Surface is still struggling with Office.
0:32:22My understanding is the Windows 10 Office still isn't out yet, I think.
0:32:25I could be wrong with that.
0:32:26>> It's supposed to be out by the end of the year.
0:32:29>> But these new versions of Office on the iPad will be out in a couple of months.
0:32:34>> Well, and Office on the iPad right now.
0:32:35I wrote a huge chunk of my iOS 9 review on an iPad Air with an external keyboard, the
0:32:42Apple Bluetooth keyboard, in Microsoft Word and it was really good.
0:32:46It is amazing.
0:32:47I mean, recently as well, Google Docs has gotten even better on the iOS.
0:32:55They have added this shortcut bar above the keyboard, which is contextually aware.
0:33:01It's fantastic.
0:33:03But I still believe that Apple need to put their money where their mouth is and signal a change.
0:33:10So there should have been--like they showed iMovie on this thing.
0:33:13Right, but that's not it. That's not the Pro app.
0:33:17It's a watered-down version of the consumer app.
0:33:20The iPad Pro has no Apple Pro app, and I'm a little disappointed that they didn't do anything.
0:33:28Because that was what I was expecting. I think other people were as well.
0:33:32Because the iPad had a real kind of coming-of-age moment with iLife
0:33:37You know GarageBand on the iPad was like people like I understand what this is all about now like this is amazing
0:33:44It was like this big thing, but now we're in this scenario where I really really wish they would have
0:33:50shown something
0:33:52Which showed that why they believe this is a pro product themselves, but they didn't know well
0:33:59Well I mean there may be time for something like that in November. Since this is not shipping,
0:34:04that's the other funny thing about this event. It's not happening. This stuff is
0:34:08way out there. November, way out there. So we may hear more about that. But yeah, I have
0:34:13my doubts that we'll be seeing logic or final cut for iPad Pro. But wouldn't that
0:34:17be something…
0:34:18Great. I mean that would…
0:34:20That's like a big kind of staked…
0:34:23A lot of my functionality problems, like you were talking about pro level editing on audio
0:34:29editing on an iPad.
0:34:31And I have, I think it's OREA, which is actually, you can edit, you can do what we do.
0:34:37The big problem is it's slow because it's all the touch interface.
0:34:43And so with this keyboard, right, which is not guaranteed but it's often there, it
0:34:51makes me wonder if that's one of the solutions is, you know, don't just make an editor
0:34:57got a good touch interface, make an editor that also becomes incredibly fast when you
0:35:02add a keyboard shortcuts.
0:35:04And iOS 9 is so much better at keyboard shortcuts, so there's hope there.
0:35:11It's all seriousness that the idea, the thought of being able to use an audio editing
0:35:16program with a keyboard and the precision of the pencil to select areas, it would be
0:35:22incredible and my hope is someone will make it.
0:35:25Yeah, wouldn't it be nice if that was Apple, but it doesn't have to be Apple.
0:35:28It doesn't have to be, but it would have been nice if they did it.
0:35:31Well, I wonder too if, maybe this isn't Apple's hangout, but looking at third party
0:35:37developers, I mean there is an ongoing concern about the race at the bottom and iPad software
0:35:43in general doesn't sell very well compared to iPhone software, but I wonder as well if
0:35:47you're going to make that podcast editing app and you're out there and you're thinking
0:35:53about doing it and you want to rely on things like the pencil and the keyboard being present,
0:35:59I don't believe that there's…
0:36:00What's your audience on that?
0:36:01Well, past that, I don't even think there's a way to target just the iPad Pro in the App
0:36:05Store.
0:36:06You still have to deal with how do I get this out there and how do I keep somebody with
0:36:10an iPad Mini 2 from buying this thing because Apple has not given developers the tools in
0:36:15the App Store at that layer to even say, to mark an app as this is a Pro app, you're
0:36:20going to need this system requirements like you can on the Mac.
0:36:23That may happen. That may have to happen.
0:36:25I think it does need to happen, but it's...
0:36:28I think there should be a class... What you said immediately made me think there should
0:36:34be a class of apps that really require an iPad Pro and that cost a lot of money. You
0:36:41say, "What's the market for that?" The answer is it doesn't need to be a big market. If
0:36:45you can get an audience that everybody in that industry knows that this is what you
0:36:50You buy an iPad Pro and a pencil and that keyboard and this software and you have a mobile whatever unit.
0:36:58Audio editing, video editing, whatever.
0:37:00That works on the Mac.
0:37:02Not only Adobe and Microsoft, but companies like Panic who make good OS X software.
0:37:08It's expensive compared to other stuff.
0:37:10They compete with even free apps in places.
0:37:12But if you need those tools, that's who you go to.
0:37:15go to. All those things that we just rattled off, it's a whole list of problems right now
0:37:21for iPad development. It's all throughout the stack. It's the store, it's the audience,
0:37:26it's the tools they are given to build apps. It seems like the hardware is just so far
0:37:31out in front, and the software and the policies, which I think is where Apple lags behind,
0:37:36I think the policies are the slowest to change. This has got to catch up for this to be more
0:37:42successful than it could be without it.
0:37:43I agree.
0:37:44All right, Jason, you mentioned November a moment ago.
0:37:47Yeah, so I want to get your thoughts on that.
0:37:49But before we do, let me just take a moment to thank our
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0:37:54And that is our friends over at Fracture, you know Fracture,
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0:38:57I do. John Saricuse is putting me to shame. He's got his robot or not tractor now and
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0:40:18So November.
0:40:19Yeah haha November.
0:40:20So we have...
0:40:21I hope it rains, I hope it rains, I hope it rains.
0:40:23Remember remember the rains of November.
0:40:25I have no idea what's happening anymore. So usually there's been an event in October
0:40:30overtime, where they would unveil the new Macs, maybe the iPads, some other little bits
0:40:36and bobs. It seems like there will not be an event in October to talk about El Capitan
0:40:43because it's coming out September 30th, which is the weirdest way to announce a product
0:40:48ship date is in an email on a screen but it was funny. I liked it. Good moment. Good way
0:40:54of doing it. But Apple always do the "let's go back over the features" again. But they
0:41:00didn't do that this week. Do you think there's going to be something else? They could do another
0:41:07event where they reassert the iPad Pro before November. They go back over the new Macs.
0:41:13Maybe there's an update or something.
0:41:14My guess is no, but I don't... If I was at Apple, I certainly would bring that up as
0:41:20a "wait, do we want to do a restatement event?" But I feel like they've done their big...
0:41:25There'd be nothing really.
0:41:26Well, it would be like a Mac thing, and I don't think they want a Mac event with iPad
0:41:30Pro is also a shipping kind of thing, restatement thing. They get a lot of stick actually in
0:41:34the press from when they, like the Apple Watch event which was a replay in the spring, a
0:41:38replay of last September's event, right? And people were like, "Oh, we already heard
0:41:43all of this." We said, "Well, yeah, but now they want people to pay attention again
0:41:47because they're shipping it." So yeah, I think we'll see Apple launch some products
0:41:51using media, you know, using review embargoes and using publicity blitzes and interviews
0:41:58with executives and all the stuff that they seem to be doing now as part of their marketing.
0:42:03As opposed to bringing the world's media into a room.
0:42:06Into town hall or something like that to do a quick kind of thing.
0:42:11Because we expect new Macs, right?
0:42:13It's rumored a 21 inch retina.
0:42:16They're absolutely going to be new Mac announcements.
0:42:19And yeah, the rumors are there'll be a smaller retina iMac.
0:42:23And who knows, maybe some other stuff too.
0:42:26But yeah, not tied to El Capitan probably, I guess.
0:42:30I guess really, I mean, you know.
0:42:32Unless it is.
0:42:33El Capitan doesn't have a ton of stuff to show.
0:42:35It's not really a great demo.
0:42:37I mean, because they did a good job of showing off at WVDC, but I don't know if there's
0:42:42a lot really to go over.
0:42:43Whatever, your cursor gets bigger.
0:42:45It's awesome.
0:42:46That's true.
0:42:47It does do that more than I wish it would.
0:42:49But I mean, using El Capitan, I do like it a lot.
0:42:52I like the split screen stuff is really useful for me.
0:42:55I love the notes app.
0:42:56So, you know, but I see, you know, it seems maybe they won't do it.
0:43:00They're just going to push it all out, as you say, maybe get some reviews and stuff
0:43:04like that.
0:43:05Yeah.
0:43:06It really does feel like this is the event now, that's it.
0:43:07Yeah, I think so.
0:43:08All right.
0:43:09So pre-orders.
0:43:10iPhone pre-orders went up a day or so ago.
0:43:13Steven?
0:43:14You got to experience it.
0:43:16You both got to experience Pacific Time Apple ordering where it was actually midnight.
0:43:20Yeah.
0:43:21It's usually 2 a.m. for me.
0:43:22It's usually 8 a.m. for Myke.
0:43:23It's not too bad for you.
0:43:24- It was great, I mean I remember when I would be on my way
0:43:27to work and I would jump off the train at a platform
0:43:30so I could pre-order my iPhone and then get back
0:43:32on the train to go off to work so I didn't go underground.
0:43:35Stephen, did you pre-order?
0:43:37- I did, so I currently am part of the Myke was Right
0:43:41generation and have an iPhone 6 Plus, I ordered--
0:43:44- There's a lot of 6 Plus converts I'm seeing.
0:43:47- Yeah, so I ordered-- - The hashtag is alive
0:43:49on Twitter.
0:43:50- So I ordered the 6S Plus 64 gig gray,
0:43:54same as I have now. I'm excited about it. I'm excited about the 3D touch. Having spent
0:44:01a little time with it, it's pretty nice. And excited about the camera especially. I think
0:44:06that new 12 megapixel shooter is going to be pretty nice. So yeah, I do it almost every
0:44:11year. What about you, Myke?
0:44:12I did. I went 64 gigabyte plus. I got the white one. So...
0:44:16I have many thoughts on this.
0:44:19A little confession.
0:44:20Okay. Real talk.
0:44:21I do want the white one, but I ordered it by accident. I didn't mean to press it, but I did press it.
0:44:26So what's your, what's the back color? Is it...
0:44:29Oh, it's silver. Yeah, I didn't get like the rose gold or anything, luckily.
0:44:33But I, because I wouldn't have wanted that. It's a nice color, but it's not for me.
0:44:37I was intending to get the gray, but I got the silver instead. But I do like doing that.
0:44:43I have done that in the past, and if I maybe wasn't, I was literally falling asleep
0:44:48as I was ordering it, I was very tired.
0:44:52But I've done this in the past and I quite like it.
0:44:54If you have a different color device,
0:44:55it feels like a new device,
0:44:57because obviously there's not a massive amount,
0:44:59they don't look any different, right?
0:45:01So I have a white one,
0:45:02and then it maybe will feel a little bit more new.
0:45:05I have had white iPhones in the past, I think they're fine.
0:45:07But I moved away from them a little while ago.
0:45:09- I used to do what you did this time,
0:45:11alternating the color, so it's a trick for your brain.
0:45:14It's a reward for spending too much money.
0:45:16But I really don't like the white glass around the screen as much as I used to, especially
0:45:22when it's off, it just looks kind of weird.
0:45:24So yeah, so that went great.
0:45:26I'm going to see.
0:45:27It's only going to be a year.
0:45:28I actually did a – I was pleased I could do this – I did it in the app, a reserve
0:45:32for pickup at the app store.
0:45:34I hate waiting at home all day for a device, especially because in the UK so many people
0:45:43buy iPhones on day one because a lot of people upgrade because we have this very
0:45:47different system to you guys and the delivery companies just cannot cope.
0:45:52Like there have been times I've ordered phones and they've come like four days
0:45:55later even though they were on a van to ship on the release day so I'm gonna go
0:45:58to a store like 9 a.m. in the morning and just pick up the phone while I'm there.
0:46:01So I'm happy about that. Jason did you do did you order one? I didn't. Why do you
0:46:07Why are you going to have that for a review?
0:46:11I'm on the non S upgrade cycle for my personal phone.
0:46:17But I also have to write about this stuff.
0:46:18So what I'm hoping is that I will get a review model from Apple that I'll be able
0:46:22to use in order to write about it.
0:46:24And then at some point I will decide about how I want to manage it with my plan and my
0:46:31family and if I want to buy, just buy an unlocked phone or whatever.
0:46:35But I'm hoping to not have to do that on day one that I'll have access to a review
0:46:40unit which lets me, unlike most people, but that lets me kind of delay my thoughts a little
0:46:46bit.
0:46:47So that's my current plan.
0:46:48And the last time, two years ago, that's what I did.
0:46:53Two years ago is I got the 5S and it was gold.
0:46:59I think that was the, was that the first gold phone?
0:47:01It was.
0:47:02The white gold 5S?
0:47:03Goldie.
0:47:04we called it. I've thought about gold a couple of times but I just feel like I can't
0:47:09just go there. I liked it. I think it looks nice. And I used that for a while and then,
0:47:15because that was the Apple review unit and they don't ask for it back like two weeks
0:47:19later they give you some time with it. So I used that for a little while but didn't
0:47:23ever buy a 5S. I just waited and bought the 6 for myself. So we'll see how it goes this
0:47:29time I don't know. I would have…
0:47:3164 gig space grey 6 is S is what you would do if we get there.
0:47:37Gotcha.
0:47:38I would like to be able to do the upgrade program. It's not in the UK yet. They said
0:47:43they will be rolling out so probably next year I will do that because I'm buying off
0:47:46contract.
0:47:47I think I've decided that I'm just going to buy unlocked phones from now on.
0:47:50I'm so fed up of dealing with…
0:47:52But not even… I don't even need the…
0:47:54…cell companies.
0:47:55I don't need the financing. Although the financing is pretty close in price. Somebody
0:48:00did some math and selling your phone and buying a new phone every year unlocked is roughly
0:48:07the same price.
0:48:08For me, I would do it just because it's easy. Like you pay for it and you pay for it every
0:48:16month and you just get a new one every year and then you don't need to go for the other
0:48:19I've got to make sure I get 700 pounds together for this time.
0:48:22Sure.
0:48:23Just so the payment goes and it's just dealt with.
0:48:25And in that year you can drop it twice and break it.
0:48:28Exactly.
0:48:29Because I do buy AppleCare.
0:48:30You put it in reminders like, "Oh, you've got to break your phone."
0:48:32Well, it does cost you $100 or something like that.
0:48:35It does.
0:48:36Yeah.
0:48:37I went through it with the -- before I went to the Plus, my regular 6 fell down a flight
0:48:40of concrete steps on a parking garage.
0:48:42On its own.
0:48:43Like it just jumped over.
0:48:44No, I was using it while --
0:48:45It was pushed.
0:48:46-- navigating the stairs and it was a terrible idea.
0:48:48But you know the payment thing, we're in a transition here in the US, right, where
0:48:53the major carriers are ending the two-year thing and where you buy the phone outright
0:48:57and you are doing this payment plan.
0:48:59I'm going to look strongly at the Apple one next time.
0:49:02I still have about a year and a half on my Verizon contract and I would love to be able
0:49:07to be in a world where I can just pay the whatever it is a month and I have the freedom
0:49:11to switch carry.
0:49:12Right now I want to switch away from Verizon to AT&T for coverage reasons.
0:49:16the ground has sort of shifted where I live as far as who has good coverage and I can't.
0:49:21I mean I can't without paying a huge ETF and buying another phone unlocked. So I bought
0:49:25this phone full price from Apple for Verizon and I think next time my family will move
0:49:32to that upgrade thing. Because the reality is I'm going to buy a new phone every year
0:49:35anyways and so why not do it in a way that's a little bit easier and where I still have
0:49:39the flexibility.
0:49:40Right. Embrace it.
0:49:41Right.
0:49:42up now. My two-year plan is up with EE, the company that I'm with. And at the moment,
0:49:49about pretty much every day, every two days, they're calling me to try and get me to
0:49:54call on a new plan.
0:49:54Yeah, but Myke, we'd like you back. Please come back.
0:49:56I have my phone on do not disturb constantly so all I ever see is these missed calls. And
0:50:00then I just block the numbers, you know? I just don't want to do with it. And so soon,
0:50:05I'm going to start shopping around again because really, I just want data plan. I just
0:50:10on, "Give me a data plan." That's what I want, and I'm going to start looking around
0:50:13again to try and find a better deal in the UK, because I pay way too much money for what
0:50:16I use these days. But I'm kind of, I'm just at the point where I just don't want
0:50:23to be locked into deals with these companies anymore.
0:50:25Tim Weiss The Apple thing is such a, I mean, okay, I
0:50:28think it's a brilliant move.
0:50:29Rob Baillie It's brilliant because we've been talking
0:50:31for a few weeks about what are they going to do, and everyone's been like, "It's
0:50:34going to be the end of Apple's…"
0:50:36Well, the perception that these phones are expensive, right? Which they are expensive,
0:50:43but they aren't perceived as that when it's just hidden in your phone bill. And the fact
0:50:48is that the carriers know that too, which is why they're not going from a subsidy
0:50:52to a "you buy it out right." They're going from a subsidy to a two-year installment
0:50:56plan. It's an accounting change more than anything else. But Apple, so then Apple can
0:51:04do that too and now they are. And I find that fascinating because that's, you know, who's
0:51:09your brand loyalty to if you're an iPhone user? It's to Apple and not to your carrier.
0:51:13So Apple is basically taking over yet another part of the carrier relationship and making
0:51:17an Apple relationship and now your phone is unlocked and you're a free agent and it makes
0:51:22the carriers even more of a dumb pipe.
0:51:24Steve
0:51:31by Ben Evans, maybe we'll put that in the show notes, I linked to it on Six Colors,
0:51:36where he said, this is actually probably why Apple squashed the MVNO rumors, is you're
0:51:43already kind of digging into one part of your carrier partner's business. You might want
0:51:48to say, "Not that other part. We're not doing that." No, no, no. Because I will
0:51:54be fascinated to see how carriers respond to this because you know the carriers could
0:51:57respond to this and in a way that is good for consumers. The carriers could say, "Oh,
0:52:03well we're going to make an even sweeter deal for you to use us for your subsidy instead
0:52:08of Apple and we'll give you a discount." And if that happens, then that's good too
0:52:15because then you can choose between Apple's deal or a deal with a carrier that's even
0:52:19sweeter. But right now the way it looks is that Apple's deal is as good as the carrier's
0:52:23deal at which point why would you not give yourself the flexibility. That phone you get
0:52:28from Apple is unlocked too so if you travel internationally you can pop a sim card in
0:52:32it. You don't have any of this locking stuff that forces you into these expensive roaming
0:52:37charges when you go international.
0:52:39Steve: There are a lot of benefits to it.
0:52:41Chris I did have a theory about the MVNO thing which
0:52:45is this will Apple start its own network and my theory was maybe that's for non-phone
0:52:53devices and I don't know enough about the phone industry to know and I want to ask somebody
0:52:57about this at some point because that was my thought there is that maybe Apple would
0:53:03want if they put cellular into a laptop or an iPad pro let's say or iPads in general
0:53:10would they want to take that off the board like we're just going to provide the data
0:53:15and we're not going to like what Amazon did with the Kindle I mean they were reselling
0:53:20behind the scenes. I think it wasn't an MVNO technically, but they were doing it behind
0:53:25the scenes. That strikes me as more plausible that Apple's got a sort of like weird plan
0:53:30for making data available for its devices than replacing your carrier relationship entirely.
0:53:35But who knows? This is, it's fascinating. This is, it's just, I wasn't expecting
0:53:41it and yet it makes perfect sense.
0:53:44It was exactly what they needed to do, but I don't think anybody expected it.
0:53:48We did see that announcement that AT&T installment plans weren't going to be sold in Apple
0:53:53stores anymore. That came out a few months ago and it's like, "Wow, what's that
0:53:57going to mean?" And the answer is, it's going to mean nothing.
0:53:59The reason it's not being done anymore is because they only want to do it themselves.
0:54:02Yeah, which is as Apple as it gets. It's an unexpected and fascinating story and people
0:54:09are doing the math about what's a good deal and I'm sure some of the carriers will respond
0:54:13and that will be interesting too. So yeah, I think it's a good time. It sounds like
0:54:19there has never been a better time to embrace the idea of buying a new phone every year
0:54:23which, you know, so many of us are on the every two year thing and people have been
0:54:29like, "Oh no, the every two year thing is going to be disrupted." But these new methods
0:54:33make it a one year thing. I mean, it's actually better than it was before because you used
0:54:38to have to take a huge hit in the alternate year and you don't have to do that with
0:54:43these plans.
0:54:44That's great.
0:54:45Can we talk about Apple TV games for a little bit?
0:54:47Yeah.
0:54:48Because my complete interest in the Apple TV would only be for gaming, right?
0:54:57So I just, as we spoke about before, the entertainment stuff is just not a big thing.
0:55:03I think Apple did exactly what I expected, which was not the right stuff.
0:55:08There's no good controller.
0:55:11seems like that the input methods are very weird. I'm interested to see how some of the
0:55:16games that are touted to be coming to the Apple TV are going to work. There's a lot
0:55:21of stuff with like, oh you can play on the iPhone or on the iPad and you can come to
0:55:27the TV and it will sync your plays. But I go back to the fact that the touch screen
0:55:32devices in the Apple TV have a vastly different interaction method.
0:55:37Yes.
0:55:38can't see how many games would be able to make that seamlessly work with the controller
0:55:44Apple's provided.
0:55:45So I'm interested to see how this sort of stuff happens.
0:55:48But there's a lot of talk about something in regards to the 200 megabyte limit for apps.
0:55:55So apps have a limit of how much space they can have on the Apple TV for reasons nobody
0:55:59can really understand.
0:56:01And what Apple is saying, and there's been a couple of articles about this, Serenity
0:56:05Caldwell wrote a great one about it on iMore saying about how, and like this is Apple's
0:56:12line on this and it's the one that people are reporting on because it's what they're
0:56:16saying about how people, developers will be able to and they're being pushed to by Apple
0:56:22to download levels and elements and assets as the game progresses. So like on demand
0:56:29or something like that. I understand that this is what is being said is the thing that
0:56:35Apple are saying and why the 200 megabyte limit doesn't matter, right, is what people
0:56:41are saying with this. But this doesn't make sense to me as a way to have a game work.
0:56:46Because if you are on an okay internet connection, you are going to hit a scenario where you
0:56:52are trying to progress to the next level and it won't be there.
0:56:56Well I think what they, the way they want to do this is that, and Serenity's article
0:57:03actually talks about how it would work. It's not supposed to work that when you get to
0:57:07level five and it has a loaded level five and you sit there and you wait for it to load
0:57:11level five. The idea is that it loads the first ten levels and when you get to level
0:57:15six it dumps the first four and loads eleven through fifteen.
0:57:20I understand how that works.
0:57:22And so that you should have a huge buffer. The problem is if there's, what if there's
0:57:27a shortcut to another level or what if you want to jump back to a level and play it again.
0:57:31Those are times you will absolutely hit this.
0:57:32This is one of the fundamental things that shows Apple's misunderstanding of video
0:57:35games.
0:57:37Not all video games are levels.
0:57:38Well, that's true.
0:57:40Like what about a game like Grand Theft Auto, an open world simulation game?
0:57:44That one's a lot harder.
0:57:45You're going to load in parts of the city?
0:57:48It doesn't work.
0:57:49Right.
0:57:50Like these games, some of these games struggle on the consoles to try and load that data
0:57:53from the disks.
0:57:54So you see like the world building itself in the background.
0:57:59And this is reading from IO.
0:58:01It's part of the console.
0:58:03- Yeah.
0:58:04- Like this is just another step for me
0:58:05where I see a fundamental misunderstanding
0:58:07of how video games work.
0:58:09- And I don't disagree with you,
0:58:10but I also don't think the Apple TV is made
0:58:12for console games.
0:58:13- Giant open level. - Like great at the data.
0:58:14I mean, I think they want,
0:58:16I think this is sort of two sides of a coin
0:58:20where the Apple TV control scheme and the hardware
0:58:23is designed with casual, super casual games in mind.
0:58:28- And this is another part of that.
0:58:30I'm not saying that it's the right way to go.
0:58:33I mean, I think if you're buying a console,
0:58:35you're not looking at the Apple TV.
0:58:36Like, it's a different category.
0:58:38The question for me is, can this category even exist
0:58:41and be a good-sized business?
0:58:43Because so far, there really has never been
0:58:46a sort of a casual console, you know,
0:58:48or something that plugs into your TV
0:58:50and you can play casual games on easily.
0:58:52So I view it as sort of a new thing
0:58:54and not Apple trying to chase a console.
0:58:57I think that if that is how they are approaching this, that makes sense. But they do talk about
0:59:03their processes being like console standard.
0:59:07Yeah, and I think maybe that's just part of flexing.
0:59:10Yeah, that's it.
0:59:11Because a casual game doesn't have to look bad, right?
0:59:15No.
0:59:16A casual game can look and should look good. I mean, look at some of our favourites over
0:59:19the years, like Monument Valley, which is like I could just put posters of Monument
0:59:23Valley around my room and I'd be happy. So I agree with you it's a little mixed messaging
0:59:29from Apple but I don't think they are gunning for the Xbox and the PlayStation with this
0:59:34thing.
0:59:35Tim Weiss (01.11.00)
0:59:36No, in fact I, if, I mean the difference between Apple and Nintendo is Nintendo has all that
0:59:45intellectual property but if you think about just the sort of like what was a cool thing
0:59:48about the Wii, it was the accessible casual games. And that's something that maybe could
0:59:57be tapped into. They showed something, they showed that game, that rhythm based game from
1:00:01Harmonix that looked very much like a Wii game. Where you've got a controller, it's
1:00:06got an accelerometer and a gyroscope, you're waving it around in order to play the game.
1:00:12And that is a class of game. It's weird though because they had a demo of this racing
1:00:18game. Asphalt? Yeah, it was the one where you're going along like a Tron kind of world.
1:00:25Oh yeah. So it was not like a race track game. Gotcha. But the demo in the demo room was
1:00:33track pad based or touch pad, whatever that thing is on the remote. So you like have to
1:00:37touch on the left to turn left and touch on the right to turn right. And I thought, "Guys,
1:00:42there's a gyroscope in there. You should just be tilting it to drive. Why did you do it
1:00:47that way and maybe the answer is it's not out yet and they had two days.
1:00:51Right, or two days. I mean a lot of iOS racing games have an option of like buttons or I
1:00:55can turn my device. I mean there's no telling.
1:00:57Yeah, but so it'll be interesting to see what they do with it but I like that they
1:01:02have you know it comes with a remote that has some of that motion sensing stuff plus
1:01:07the trackpad because I think it will be versatile enough UI for some casual gaming.
1:01:13Sure.
1:01:14But there will be a limit to it.
1:01:16Yup, that's definitely and I think like harmonics making that game exclusively for
1:01:21the Apple TV is a really weird thing. Like I can't imagine it's going to really be
1:01:27a matter of how big it's going to be.
1:01:29My feeling there is that this is the equivalent of first party games.
1:01:33Is that Apple's not going to make their own games for this which we talked about the
1:01:38poker iPad game and all of that right that has like Phil Schiller in it. This is the
1:01:46alternative to that which is Apple's got money, Apple goes to partners and says make
1:01:50us an exclusive for the Apple TV and that's instead of having first party games they have
1:01:54some exclusive titles that they have funded essentially. I think that's what's happening.
1:02:00Some of the big stuff that I'm trying to, I want to get the full details on this but
1:02:04but like games like Disney infinity.
1:02:07So what I've heard is,
1:02:08'cause currently you plug this reader into a console
1:02:11and you put the action figures down
1:02:13and they appear in the game.
1:02:14But I've heard that there's gonna be an update
1:02:16to Disney infinity where there is a Bluetooth enabled reader.
1:02:20And so stuff like that, that could be huge.
1:02:23These types of games, these games for younger kids
1:02:28with all of this stuff like Lego
1:02:29is about to do one called dimensions.
1:02:31If Apple can convince these companies
1:02:33to put these games on here, like the new Guitar Hero.
1:02:36I mean, I don't know what they're gonna do with Guitar Hero.
1:02:39I can't imagine a guitar peripheral for the Apple TV.
1:02:42So I'm not, they have, this is like Guitar Hero's come in.
1:02:45I haven't seen yet, like what do you use the little remote
1:02:48for Guitar Hero, 'cause that's not fun.
1:02:50So if they can bring these sort of games in,
1:02:53make some sort of versions with them,
1:02:55it could be interesting.
1:02:57But this again, it like mixes the message for me,
1:03:00because these are traditional console games.
1:03:03but they want them on the Apple TV.
1:03:04But then they don't make controls on them.
1:03:06- There is a class of casual game on iOS
1:03:08that does work with this control scheme.
1:03:10And they're actually--
1:03:12- They show CrossFit Road and it's perfect.
1:03:13- Yeah, and those are actually the ones
1:03:14that have the worst control schemes on the touch screen
1:03:17because they really want you to have a left, right, up, down.
1:03:19Like Pac-Man 256.
1:03:22- Does the button click?
1:03:24- It does, it physically clicks.
1:03:26- It's an actual physical click?
1:03:27- I think it is.
1:03:27- It's not one of these fake ones?
1:03:28- No, I think it's a real one.
1:03:30- Because I couldn't tell if it clicked.
1:03:32the fact that it clicks is good because that is an interesting way to make it work. But
1:03:36yeah, it's just this mixed message thing that I just find so confusing. But I can see
1:03:44why they're doing it. They want to be in the gaming world, but I think Apple still has
1:03:48a ways to go to maybe prove a little bit more legitimacy.
1:03:51All right, should we take a break? Jason, would you like to talk about Stamps.com?
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1:05:26It's delightful.
1:05:28So whilst I'm here, a great company that we do some sponsorship with on the pen addict
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1:06:25So Jason, we were leaving dinner yesterday and you showed me an iMessage that you received
1:06:31from your daughter. Could you explain to the listeners what's happened here?
1:06:35JASON: It was a text that said, "What do I do?"
1:06:39MATT: It's not a good way to start really.
1:06:43JASON I can hear her saying it too because this is her default. I don't know what…
1:06:49Even when she's very proud about being able to navigate the world, when she was younger
1:06:52she said this a lot more than she does now that she's 13, almost 14. But she gets to
1:06:59that moment and she goes, "What do I do?" And she texted me, "What do I do?" And
1:07:04I thought, "Uh oh." And then an image came through and it was a screenshot of her
1:07:09iPhone with the alert saying, "You don't have enough space to back up your iPhone."
1:07:15And I told her, "Don't worry about it. I'll take care of it when I get home."
1:07:18But I had just been talking about this because David Smith wrote a piece on his blog about
1:07:25the bad user experience that comes with 16GB iPhones because they run out of space.
1:07:32He actually has some scary stats about people who use his apps and how much space that they've
1:07:36got available and it's not good.
1:07:39The 16GB models, it's not good.
1:07:41It's super tight.
1:07:42And you get these alerts that you're running out of space and it makes people uncomfortable
1:07:46and maybe it would be better if that phone didn't exist because it makes the users
1:07:49not have a good experience. And my response was to say, you know the other thing that
1:07:54makes users have a bad experience is the fact that there's the 5 gigabyte iCloud thing
1:07:58and these days almost any iPhone will hit that limit and tell you what my daughter got,
1:08:07the "I can't back up alert, danger, I can't back up your phone, action is required, take
1:08:12action!" And you know, I complained about it and it was just funny. I was talking about
1:08:19it and then it happened to my daughter and it's frustrating because I've got a 500
1:08:23gig plan which soon, if I keep it the way it is, soon will be a terabyte plan.
1:08:27Ben: I have no idea what mine is.
1:08:28Chris: $9.99, the $9.99 a month. I got it because I wrote that book about photos so
1:08:32I saved my entire photos library and I like having the whole photos library there. But
1:08:39my family sharing plan members don't have access to it,
1:08:42which is insane.
1:08:44- If you have a terabyte as an individual,
1:08:47you should be able to split that up amongst people.
1:08:50That's a lot of space.
1:08:51- That's a lot of space.
1:08:52- I mean, we were talking about this earlier,
1:08:54but family sharing is sort of half done.
1:08:57Like it works in certain circumstances,
1:08:59but with this seems like such an obvious addition to that,
1:09:03where they just haven't gotten around,
1:09:04like the guy in charge of it hasn't gotten around to it.
1:09:06I don't know.
1:09:08it's and you know I talk to people about it I understand you know storage cloud
1:09:13storage isn't free but this five free is five free for an apple account so if you
1:09:20have a phone and an iPad you immediately run into the five free unless you like
1:09:24create a dummy iCloud account name which strikes me first off perhaps every
1:09:31linked device to a particular Apple ID should get five gigs first off it should
1:09:37probably be 10 gigs. And second, there should probably be an additional amount that you
1:09:42get for every additional device you link to that ID. Because you're buying the hardware,
1:09:47you're giving Apple cash for the hardware. So it's like, "Oh, you had an iPad, your
1:09:5010 is now 15." Or whatever. I feel like they did everything, they did a good job,
1:09:58not everything right, but they did a good job in lowering the iCloud fees in general.
1:10:01I'm disappointed I'm on that 500 gig plan, it's gone now. If you want more than 200,
1:10:05which I do because of all the photos I've got, you have to go up to the terabyte now.
1:10:09So it doesn't actually save me any money right now.
1:10:11>> There's no middle ground.
1:10:12>> You can still get the 500.
1:10:13>> Can you?
1:10:14>> Yeah, for the time being at least.
1:10:16I'm looking at it right now.
1:10:17>> Well, yeah, but those are the old rates.
1:10:18>> Yeah, that will go away.
1:10:19>> It'll go--it'll be--
1:10:20>> I think it's--my guess is it'll be on the 16th of the iOS update.
1:10:23They usually kind of pair iCloud stuff with that.
1:10:25>> Right.
1:10:26So they'll get rid of the 500.
1:10:27They'll keep the terabyte at the cost of what is now the 500.
1:10:30The 200 gets cheaper.
1:10:32That's great.
1:10:33It just feels to me like I don't want to say that Apple shouldn't try to make money
1:10:40on cloud services because I know they have a cost. However, below a certain point, what
1:10:45you're talking about is how are your customers experiencing your products, the hardware that
1:10:50they buy. That's not a cloud services. That shouldn't be the job or the decision of
1:10:56the cloud services division of like, "Well, we got to make money." That's the people
1:11:00make an iPhone. Like Jonathan Ive actually should care that people who buy a 16GB iPhone
1:11:06are going to run out of space and that's a user experience problem. And they should
1:11:09care that 5GB of backup is probably not suitable and that the goal here is not to create something
1:11:17that is such a limited freebie that it's essentially useless in order to upsell people
1:11:24on storage. Ultimately people need a lot of storage they should pay for it but I feel
1:11:28like there's the line that you can draw where it's a reasonable amount and if you
1:11:34want to use more you should pay. And then there's a line you can draw that it's
1:11:37an unreasonable amount and it's really just kind of a sleazy way to get more money out
1:11:42of somebody. And for Apple's products, they need to be on the right line there. They need
1:11:49to not be perceived as constantly hitting you up for more money. And the 5 gig backup
1:11:56they're not on the right side of the line.
1:12:00- I've taken a look at mine, 'cause I have no idea,
1:12:02and I am on some weird legacy plan
1:12:04where I get 25 gigabytes for 7.99 a year.
1:12:07- Oh my God.
1:12:09- Maybe it was .Mac, 'cause I've stuck around
1:12:12with the same account since then.
1:12:13- You've made a horrible mistake.
1:12:15- So I have a 25 gigabyte, 7.99 a year.
1:12:18- So you're gonna be able to go up to 99 cents a year,
1:12:22or 99 cents a month.
1:12:23Oh, you're in--
1:12:24- I have not--
1:12:24- You're 7.99 a year?
1:12:26year. So I basically it says here if you change this you're losing what you've got. But I
1:12:33never have this problem. I never have an issue where I'm out of space. Because I don't put
1:12:39all my photos in there yet. I don't plan on doing it. I use my iCloud storage purely for
1:12:45my backups even though currently nothing is backing up which is horrifying and that will
1:12:50be fixed within the next couple of days. But it's funny, I assume this is probably .Mac,
1:12:57that I'm on here, but I've just looked at it now because I always hear people talk,
1:13:00I'm like, "I don't think I pay every month for storage," and that's why because
1:13:04I pay a minuscule 8 pounds a year for my 25 gigabytes.
1:13:08That is amazing.
1:13:09I'm going to try and keep this for as long as possible.
1:13:11You're in some weird grandfather scheme that they don't even know how it works.
1:13:15That's like the great grandfather plan now.
1:13:17literally says once you upgrade you will not have the option to return to your legacy plan.
1:13:23Look at me, look at that.
1:13:25Look at that. The backup, I mean, and I think that's what I'm really talking about here.
1:13:28Bad user experience is Apple has created a system level backup. It's good. People should
1:13:33probably backup their stuff and you can't like install a backup program on your iPhone.
1:13:37So it's a base part of the system. People who are not doing unreasonable things should
1:13:43be able to just know that their phones are getting backed up without worrying about it.
1:13:47by having the level where it is, you know, what ends up happening is people get frustrated
1:13:53because the UI for it is terrible. It's there. You can specify what to delete from
1:13:57the backup and what not to backup, but it's not very good. And so people like my daughter,
1:14:03I think, will just say, unless they've got me to say what do I do, they just are like
1:14:09whatever. And then the phone is not backed up anymore.
1:14:11I remember Adina had this issue and she was like I'll stop backing up my photos. I was like but
1:14:15No, no, because it was the old because she was running out of space
1:14:19It was the only thing she could do because it kept telling her every day
1:14:22It's like you've got to do something you got to do something. Yeah, which is you know
1:14:25My feeling with this is Apple doesn't have to offer backup. They don't have to do it
1:14:31But because they do yes, they need to go all in. Yes. I agree
1:14:35If you're gonna give anything free, it's got to be enough to help the person out
1:14:39You don't have to do it at all.
1:14:40Right.
1:14:41For a reasonable person to back up their devices that they bought without, again, at a reasonable
1:14:46level and then if you're somebody who's backing up crazy stuff, sure, but you've got to draw
1:14:50that line in the right place.
1:14:52They drew the line at five gigs free like what, three years ago, four years ago?
1:14:57And the line has moved.
1:14:58They need to move.
1:15:00They need to raise that number.
1:15:01I don't know if, I mean people talk about it and I don't know if they need to do the
1:15:04thing where they offer you the same amount of storage for the device that you have.
1:15:07that's an ideal. I don't know if that's necessarily the best business move for monetary reasons,
1:15:13but it needs to be more than 5GB is what I'm saying.
1:15:15Well, and the way the backups work, if you have a 64GB phone and you have 30GB of music,
1:15:19Apple's not backing up that music.
1:15:20Exactly.
1:15:20I mean, they're backing up some core stuff, they're backing up your settings, they're backing up...
1:15:23Really, it shouldn't be an amount, right?
1:15:26Oh yeah.
1:15:26You should just say, "Your device is backed up. If you want to add photos on, you pay for it."
1:15:31Yeah.
1:15:32But the data except like some media, it shouldn't be like you have 16 gigabytes, you have 7
1:15:38gigabytes, it's just taken care of.
1:15:39You could argue that if you're going to spend $100 for more storage on your phone,
1:15:45that that's one of the things you're spending for is some more, you know, your backup of
1:15:49that device too.
1:15:50So it's like why is it $100 more to get a 128 over a 64 and the answer is well, it's
1:15:56not just the memory chips, it's also more cloud storage that we're giving you.
1:15:59But they're not doing that now.
1:16:00It's gross and I agree with your assessment.
1:16:03It's the wrong side of the line.
1:16:04If you tie it into family sharing,
1:16:06that would help because some people are on the family
1:16:08sharing stuff.
1:16:09And that would be a way to do it.
1:16:11Because that's the other problem is
1:16:12if a husband and a wife have different Apple IDs
1:16:14and they both need some storage, right now they
1:16:17have to do two monthly plans with Apple,
1:16:19which is also stupid.
1:16:20And there should be one plan that covers the whole family.
1:16:22Agreed.
1:16:23Oh well.
1:16:24Let's do some Ask Upgrade.
1:16:25Jason, can you tell our lovely listeners about Foundual?
1:16:28I can.
1:16:28And so as we record this in fact, it is day one. There are football games, American football
1:16:34games Myke, because we're in America.
1:16:35Myke: American football?
1:16:36JE.S.T. American football is being played right now. This is the first week of the football
1:16:41season. As you hear this, it will all be over except for a couple of Monday night games.
1:16:47So anyway, how did your fantasy team do? Did you do well? Did you not do well? I don't
1:16:52because my fantasy team is still playing. But it's a fun pastime that a lot of people
1:16:59do where they get sometimes it's more engaged in the sport as they're watching it because
1:17:05they are more interested in games that they wouldn't otherwise be interested in because
1:17:08they have players on those teams that they care about. It's a lot of fun. I've been
1:17:12playing fantasy sports for a very long time. The difference with something like FanDuel
1:17:16is that they play one week fantasy football. So for example, now that week one has passed,
1:17:19You'd say, "Darn it, I never got into a fantasy league this year.
1:17:23I guess it's too late for me."
1:17:24And you don't have to do that with FanDuel because every week it's a new week, a clean
1:17:29slate.
1:17:30You play again.
1:17:31You don't get behind and you're like, "My team is terrible this year.
1:17:32I'm done."
1:17:33And you don't say, "I didn't pay attention to the football schedule until week three,
1:17:37so I'm done."
1:17:38You can jump in at any point.
1:17:41There are more winners and payouts than any other site on FanDuel.
1:17:44They're going to have more than $75 million a week during the football season.
1:17:48completely insane. Building a team is pretty easy. You get a salary cap and the players,
1:17:53based on how big of a star they are, have a value. And so you can pick some stars and
1:17:57some nobodies. You can pick a bunch of people that are kind of in the middle that you think
1:18:01are going to do well. It's an interesting exercise in trying to balance out and make
1:18:06the perfect roster. And then you sit back and watch for the week and see what happens.
1:18:11And you pay an entry fee to get into a league and that's the money that comes back to
1:18:14the winners. They start at $1. It is a game of skill. You are using your knowledge and
1:18:20maybe your guts about football players in order to try and find what the ideal assemblage
1:18:26of a football roster is. It can be a lot of fun. Last year, a FanDuel player named Joe
1:18:32Watson from New York turned his $50 deposit into more than $30,000 in two weeks playing
1:18:37fantasy football. He is a really good fantasy player, much better than me. Anyway, go to
1:18:42fanduel.com. Click the microphone in the upper right hand corner, use the code "upgrade"
1:18:48and sign up now. New users also get access to a special offer. For every dollar you deposit,
1:18:54Fanduel will match it up to $200. It gets earned as you play. So use code "upgrade".
1:19:00Fanduel.com, F-A-N-D-U-E-L.com and then use the code "upgrade". Every day is a new season
1:19:06at Fanduel. I would say play ball here but that's baseball so that's a mixed metaphor.
1:19:11I have been seeing a ton of FanDuel ads on American TV whilst I've been here.
1:19:16It's a really big deal.
1:19:17It's a huge thing.
1:19:19Well, fantasy football is huge.
1:19:21And then somebody discovered at some point that, first off, fantasy used to be you'd
1:19:26like get the paper on Monday and you'd write down the statistics.
1:19:30I did this.
1:19:31My first fantasy league was when I was in high school.
1:19:32And you'd write down the statistics and you'd put like you know who people's players
1:19:37were.
1:19:38and maybe you had a spreadsheet on your computer, but maybe you just did it by hand, but you
1:19:42got it out of the newspaper. And then over time, the computers got better and then all
1:19:47the stats were on the internet and suddenly you could have websites that would calculate
1:19:51that data. And so that was the next step and they used the old style kind of year-long
1:19:55leagues. The new innovation is this week-by-week thing where you can drop in and drop out.
1:20:01It's true because it so often happens that people are like really, maybe they're into
1:20:05baseball and then the World Series ends and they go "oh yeah I never did fantasy football"
1:20:10and with these kind of games you jump, you can jump in, you focus once and then you're
1:20:14playing the game and you're not making a commitment to 18 weeks and you're not making
1:20:19a, you know, it's a clever idea so this is the new thing.
1:20:23Anywho, Oscar grade. So Rajeev asked "Will the next version of the iPad have 3D touch?"
1:20:30I was surprised that they didn't put it in.
1:20:34I mean I think that it's one of those things like a touch ID where it's going to start
1:20:39with the phone and then migrate around.
1:20:42I do expect it to be everywhere.
1:20:44It seems to be really useful.
1:20:49The iPhone is the flagship product.
1:20:51It's the product that makes Apple the most money, they sell the most of them.
1:20:56I think it will come but I think it's fine that it's not there now.
1:20:59So I've played a bit a little bit because there's some people here that have the devices.
1:21:03fine. You don't have to press as hard as you do on the watch.
1:21:06Oh no, I think they did a really great job. I think it feels much nicer.
1:21:10The software, the sensors, whatever they're doing, they perfectly are measuring your intent.
1:21:15I never felt like, "Oh no, I didn't mean to do that." It's like it knows when I
1:21:18want to peak and pop. I have my own theory about these. I don't
1:21:25think it should be called peak and pop. You guys are talking about it because it always
1:21:28pops I think it should be called pop and snap but Dan Provost the studio needs
1:21:33have a pop and lock he came up he said what about pop unlock because I think
1:21:37you know I think that's more fun but I like that I like that interaction I'm
1:21:40interested to see how it will work because I wonder what the actual real
1:21:45utility will be in that some of that stuff like the idea of peeking at the
1:21:49message like you might as well just tap the message and open the message but
1:21:52looking at like you know when we send URLs to each other just looking like the
1:21:56image without leaving the messages app, that seems really useful.
1:22:00So they did it with a great bit.ly URL.
1:22:02Perfect.
1:22:03Someone sends you a bit.ly URL, what is this?
1:22:05You click it, you see what someone is sending you, great.
1:22:08And then you can either be like, I'll go get it later or you can push through and then
1:22:12you get, then you're there.
1:22:15It's like, okay, I'll buy into that.
1:22:16I think it's a really good metaphor.
1:22:20And then out on the home screen, I think they did a very good job.
1:22:24I think you can get really used to the pushing on an app and then keeping your finger on
1:22:28the screen and sliding down to the action you want and letting go and having it quick
1:22:32link you in.
1:22:33I think that's really nice.
1:22:34It's like a really weird URL scheme thing.
1:22:37That's what it is.
1:22:38It's like Launch Center Pro.
1:22:40So I think imagine an app workflow where you can just trigger an action by holding on the
1:22:45icon.
1:22:46This is, if you remember a few weeks ago, I was talking about Action Launcher.
1:22:49It's basically exactly that.
1:22:51the idea of you being able to trigger certain actions just by touching the icons. I think
1:22:56it's pretty cool.
1:22:57So I do think all the iPads are going to get this feature. I wonder, I do wonder technically
1:23:02if it's more difficult, I'm sure it's more difficult, I wonder how much more difficult
1:23:06it is to sense pressure across a large screen, a large sheet of glass.
1:23:12Yeah, I mean it seems to be, looking at their videos and how they explain it, that it's
1:23:16a layer under the screen and you know, there's a ton of, surely.
1:23:19Yeah, it's like in the background.
1:23:20think they would do it on the iPhone if they didn't think they could have it on the iPad
1:23:22next year.
1:23:23Right.
1:23:24But it might…
1:23:25Yes, because right now, I mean, this is a new metaphor and you want it to be everywhere
1:23:29and it just makes sense that it would be on the iPad eventually.
1:23:32So I would assume so.
1:23:34In fact, I would say this feels far more cohesive as a metaphor.
1:23:39I know there's two models.
1:23:40There's the kind of right-click model in the home screen and then there's this peak
1:23:45can pop everywhere else but that peak and pop metaphor is good. It's consistent and
1:23:55that's not something that I've seen with the force touch on the Mac.
1:24:01Or on the watch.
1:24:04Or on the watch. Well at least the watch when you force touch it usually it brings up a
1:24:08layer with a menu. It's almost like a right click. But on the Mac it's this three finger
1:24:13look up something kind of thing. So I look at this and think next OS X version or Mac
1:24:20OS perhaps. I wonder, nope, I wonder if, it feels like it needs a unifying metaphor for
1:24:32what a force touch does and this has it.
1:24:34Well I mean it's easy to unify the name.
1:24:37Well yeah, maybe OS 11 will have 3D touch and it will be peak and pop and it will all
1:24:42much more sense. Well my thought on that too is that on the watch Force Touch is
1:24:47just one thing right it is it is measuring sensitivity but there's only
1:24:51one action behind it where on the on the phone there are now two and so it's
1:24:56almost like 3d touch is a step further than Force Touch it's yeah so I agree
1:25:00the naming is messy and I like that they have two names and neither of them are good.
1:25:04Yeah yeah they're both terrible names yeah but I do think that 3d touch is
1:25:09sort of a step further down that road and I would I can see a world in which
1:25:13the future version of the watch has another layer of depth to it yeah yeah
1:25:19yeah sure we'll see we'll see where you can use force touch on it on a certain
1:25:23element right well the watch recognizes elements well doesn't recognize it with
1:25:28the full stuff well the the technology that they're using to sense touch on the
1:25:31watch is very different very different but what I'm saying is you you touch you
1:25:36you touch a little hard for something and you touch harder for something else. Like
1:25:40on the phone it very much feels like it's a depth thing. Like this MacBook Pro that's
1:25:44sitting right here has the four-touch trackpad. It's that trick of I'm pushing into it
1:25:48but I'm not really pushing into it. And the phone seems more precise in that and
1:25:53the watch does. The watch I'm kind of like just slamming, you know, the bloodied end
1:25:56of my hand into my wrist but the phone feels a little more precise.
1:25:59I'm still worried about all of our nerve endings but we'll address that in a few
1:26:03years time.
1:26:04I think if you haven't tried it
1:26:06It takes less pressure than the watch it is it is not more comfortable all the worries that we had about like oh
1:26:13You know you're gonna be pressing really hard on this thing
1:26:15It doesn't feel you know you don't press hard
1:26:17But you just press enough that it registers it knows that you're trying to do you do you know if that because obviously I have to
1:26:24Tap to catch it in there. Yes that replace the vibrate motor is there a vibrant matter
1:26:28I have read that it does
1:26:29but I don't know. All I can tell you is that the vibration motor feels pretty
1:26:34much the same to me so I imagine that it is the vibration motor too but it's
1:26:39Or the haptic motor is just making a vibration. Well that's it is that it's
1:26:44the old crummy vibrator is not there. The implication at the event was that this
1:26:49is just a better vibration engine because it can do smaller increments.
1:26:54Yeah because they were talking about how many revolutions it needs but I think you
1:26:57get up to one vibration.
1:26:59- But I think it can still do the full on
1:27:01(imitates
1:27:25And I don't know, I assume that is a side effect of the anodization process.
1:27:30I don't know if they're also like spraying on something to make it, yes, some stick 'em.
1:27:37That rhino line where people spray on trucks.
1:27:39And I'm unclear about whether it means they, whether it'll wear off or whether it's
1:27:48going to stay but it is, it feels much more tacky and less slippery than the 6. So I think
1:27:57there was at least an attempt made to make it less slippery.
1:28:01So Dave would like to know how the rose gold iPhone actually looks because in some of the
1:28:07photos it looks copper colored. I mean my feeling, I've seen them, I've seen one
1:28:11of the watches as well, it's pink.
1:28:14Alright please, yes, thank you for answering that question because although I…
1:28:18Although I can see many colors, light pink casts on things I can't detect. My girlfriend
1:28:25in college had a pair of pink socks that I said, "Why don't you throw those socks
1:28:28away? They're so gray and faded." And she said, "No, they're pink." So yeah,
1:28:35when I saw the rose gold iPhone and the Apple Watch version that's rose gold too, it looked
1:28:41gold to me. I can't see it at all. So thank you for providing some expert commentary on
1:28:45it.
1:28:45It's pink.
1:28:45It's pink.
1:28:46They, they, I think.
1:28:48- You could give it, you could give me one
1:28:49and I would never know.
1:28:50I was thinking I've got this old iPhone.
1:28:51- I think the idea here was they wanted
1:28:52to make a pink iPhone but not call it a pink iPhone.
1:28:55- Yeah.
1:28:55- All right, I think they wanted to give it a fancier name.
1:28:57- Well, Christina Warren has been referring to it
1:28:59as rose gold.
1:29:00- Yeah, which is a brilliant way of putting it
1:29:02because that's the color.
1:29:03It's like that, sorry, like the red-y pinkish color
1:29:07of rose is what this looks like.
1:29:09'Cause rose gold looks very different to that.
1:29:12Like if you wanna see what rose gold looks like,
1:29:13go look at the edition.
1:29:14That's rose gold.
1:29:15Okay, so Josh would like to know...
1:29:18If you want to see what Space Gray looks like, go to space.
1:29:20Exactly.
1:29:21It's not gray, I can tell you.
1:29:23Josh would like to know, "With 3D touch, is the gesture for deleting apps still the same?
1:29:27Seems like there would be some gesture collision."
1:29:29I can say yes, that definitely happens, because when Adina tried to do it, she couldn't get it to work,
1:29:35and the icon started jiggling, and we couldn't see it in the sun, so she's pressing it,
1:29:38nothing's happening because she was holding for too long.
1:29:40long. This is the exact issue that we were talking about weeks ago that I think will
1:29:45happen to people. The phone will now do another thing which is unexpected by some.
1:29:50My guess is that over time long press will go away. I don't know what they replace
1:29:57that with to remove the app. Maybe every app in the right-click menu gets a remove or maybe
1:30:01there's some other element to do it. But I agree. If you think that you are 3D touching,
1:30:09It's a terrible verb. And you're not actually pushing hard enough, you are just actually
1:30:13long pressing because your thumb is just resting on the screen. And so I agree that right now
1:30:18it's a little messy and maybe they can do more software over time to detect the difference
1:30:22better. But I also think too that once you get used to it, you won't make that mistake.
1:30:27No, I agree completely with that. That once you get used to what a force or 3D press,
1:30:33I've been saying push. I kind of like when you push an icon instead of tap. No, just
1:30:37push. Push mic over. Yeah, do that. When you push on a mic on, you get that menu. When
1:30:44you just lay your finger on it, you tap it and hold, you're not exerting pressure into
1:30:50it, you're just tapping on it and then it starts to dance. But I think in the long run,
1:30:53yeah, it's just that thing. I think you get used to it, but I always just go back to the
1:30:57people that don't pay attention to it, who just don't care because it's not what they
1:31:01follow. Or you do it while you're walking down the street, not paying full attention
1:31:04even and then you nuke overcast instead of trying to play a new episode of upgrade.
1:31:10I think you'd almost want to put it ultimately in the force press 3D push whatever menu as
1:31:20an option or yeah and then it brings up a thing that says are you sure you want to delete
1:31:25this?
1:31:26Right, that gets my vote.
1:31:27And a final question today from Rajeev, do you think that Apple will eventually make
1:31:31Siri operable without an internet connection? I feel like they definitely should.
1:31:37So much of Siri is, I mean, I think Apple is redefining Siri as being internet-based
1:31:41data sources, though. I mean, you can do text-to-speech without an internet connection.
1:31:45It can still give information that it knows about you, like its intelligent assistant.
1:31:50Yeah, I agree. For things like, what's my next calendar item, and if you're in airplane
1:31:54mode, it still knows what your next calendar item is, right? So your phone should be able
1:31:58to tell you that.
1:32:00The problem is, and I think what this question gets to, is that the voice recognition takes
1:32:04place on the cloud.
1:32:05So on the Mac it doesn't have to.
1:32:08Well, the Mac doesn't have Siri.
1:32:09That's dictation.
1:32:10On the Mac it downloads the dictation dictionary and it matches it.
1:32:14But if you...
1:32:15The phone should be able to pause some of it.
1:32:17Speech to text is not Siri though.
1:32:19Speech to text is speech to text.
1:32:20And you can do that offline.
1:32:22Right.
1:32:23But the question about, is Siri going to be operable without the internet connection,
1:32:25they would have to offload some sort of Siri logic
1:32:30to the devices.
1:32:31- Yes, that's harder.
1:32:33- That's harder and my guess is it's a pretty big data set
1:32:35and they're always evolving it right.
1:32:37I mean Siri is sort of a growing learning system
1:32:41where they tweak it over time.
1:32:42It's a robot or maybe it's not, but it is learning.
1:32:46And so I don't know, I agree with you
1:32:49that for stuff on device, even if it's a limited set
1:32:52of commands, it would be nice,
1:32:54but I think that there's a lot of weirdness in there
1:32:56that I just want to avoid of, well, this works one time,
1:32:59it's not working another time, or something like that.
1:33:02- We'll see.
1:33:02It's something I would like to see them
1:33:04do a little bit more with.
1:33:05I still think Siri is underpowered.
1:33:08- I think Apple is redefining Siri
1:33:10as being an internet-based, it's basically a search engine.
1:33:15And under that definition,
1:33:17my answer to Rajiv's question would be no.
1:33:19Although I would like them to be able to do the Siri
1:33:23take it home version of Siri where it's offline, it can do some basic stuff like back in the
1:33:28day when you used to be able to tell your voice control.
1:33:31Steve McLaughlin Tell me a joke. Knock, knock.
1:33:33John Dickerson No, but it would be like play music by whatever
1:33:37and it would do it, right? So something rudimentary like that where it was going to say, "Look,
1:33:41I can't tell you that unless I'm on the internet," but some basic set of features like your calendar
1:33:46or…
1:33:47Steve McLaughlin Or even fall back to that. That system was
1:33:48very short lived. It was only the 3GS and the 4. I mean even fall back to something
1:33:52like that where I can dial a phone number by voice.
1:33:56I think, or play music.
1:33:57I'm going to throw an ask upgrade at you guys.
1:34:01Live ask upgrade!
1:34:02Never.
1:34:03So, why has Siri not made it to the Mac?
1:34:10Good radio right here.
1:34:11The sound of crickets.
1:34:12I don't think that there's a reason that makes any logical sense.
1:34:15I'm going to give you a better answer.
1:34:18Than mic.
1:34:20- Um, it is there because the assistant stuff
1:34:25that they're adding, I feel like Siri is coming to the Mac
1:34:32in a different direction.
1:34:33Like there are all those data sources
1:34:35that they're adding to Spotlight.
1:34:37- Right.
1:34:38- Those are the Siri data sources.
1:34:39The only thing that's not coming to the Mac
1:34:41is the text-driven interaction with the Spotlight window.
1:34:46Maybe they'll add that at some point,
1:34:49but I feel like they could call it Siri even if they don't add that because at some point
1:34:52Siri is the search. It's spotlight, spotlight may just go away and it may be Siri in a Mac
1:34:58OS 11.
1:34:59>> I agree with that if they bring the voice commands to it because I think so many people
1:35:04think of Siri as the thing I interact with with my voice.
1:35:06>> I agree. And it's already got speech and text, right? And it's already got the text.
1:35:09All the parts are there and I'm a little surprised it hasn't happened but if you look at the
1:35:13new data sources that they're adding in El Capitan, it's a lot of the same stuff that
1:35:18that they put into Siri.
1:35:19So it's basically the same.
1:35:20- Right, and with Applebot being web-based,
1:35:22I mean they can pull from that information,
1:35:24they can search within the app store,
1:35:26they can do all these things.
1:35:27- Yeah.
1:35:28- Really from any platform.
1:35:29I mean some of that's agnostic.
1:35:30So I agree with you that it's,
1:35:31they're getting there and they're doing it
1:35:34in a very sort of behind the scenes way
1:35:36where Spotlight keeps getting better and better,
1:35:38more powerful, more flexible.
1:35:40But I do think for them to call it Siri
1:35:42with big air quotes that you can't see,
1:35:44podcast listener. - You still need to have
1:35:45a little voice that you can talk to.
1:35:46got out it's got it's got to have the sassiness.
1:35:50yeah the yeah I the other thing that we think is out there for siri in the
1:35:55future is across device integration where if I've got an apple TV and iPad
1:36:00and iPhone and a Mac all on my home network not to mention perhaps some home
1:36:05you know smart home stuff I would like to be able to do things from one device
1:36:10to another right and I know that that's you know their security issues and
1:36:13things but if it's all in my network and it's with my Apple ID you know I would
1:36:17really be able to like to use my Apple TV remote or my phone to tell my Mac to
1:36:22play some music on iTunes. Right or I'm in the kitchen all I have is my phone I
1:36:26can tell my Apple TV start you know start playing this movie or start
1:36:30playing this album. Right. You know HomeKit sort of lays the foundation for
1:36:34that in a way again we talk I think you and I just spoke about it last week
1:36:38Jason that HomeKit is sort of like undead. It's still it's still there.
1:36:42It's still there.
1:36:43They just didn't talk about it, but it's still there.
1:36:45It seemed, at least publicly, sort of not the push right now.
1:36:49Which is funny because now you've got a Siri remote that you can talk to, so you can tell
1:36:53it to turn on the lights, and I think it will work.
1:36:55I think the new Apple TV is definitely a push in that direction.
1:36:58They just didn't put it on stage.
1:37:00Right.
1:37:01So, yeah, I agree with you.
1:37:02I think it would be really great to have Siri take on some Jarvis-like control.
1:37:06control, where it's, "Hey, I know about all these things," right? Like you said, my iCloud
1:37:12account ties them all together. I want them to do more with that in the future. I think
1:37:17they'll get there, but we'll see.
1:37:19Of course, I think that wraps it up for this week. Stephen, thank you so much for joining
1:37:23us.
1:37:24Thank you for having me.
1:37:25It's a pleasure. Always a pleasure. Jason, always lovely to record in person. That's
1:37:28right. This is our third. Is it our third?
1:37:30I think.
1:37:31I like it when we do this. But thank you so much for listening, and also thanks to our
1:37:34sponsors again for this week. Linda.com, Fracture, Stamps.com and FanDuel. They help support
1:37:41the show if you help support them. That's really nice for us. If you want to find Jason
1:37:45online then you can go over to SixColors.com and he is @JasonL. On Twitter, Steven is @ismh
1:37:51and he writes over at 512pixels.net and I am @imyke. We have some show notes this week
1:37:58week, which you can find over at relay.fm/upgrade/54. But until then, we'll be back next time.
1:38:05Bye bye.
1:38:06Thus ends year one of Upgrade.
1:38:10Woooo!
1:38:11Hooray! We did it!
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