42: Shuttlecraft Wallet

0:00:00[Music]

0:00:08from relay FM this is upgrade episode number 42 today's show is brought to you

0:00:14by our friends over at Casper Squarespace smile with PDF pen pro 7 and mail route

0:00:22my name is Myke Hurley and I am joined as always by mr. Jason Snell so long and

0:00:28thanks for all the fish, Myke.

0:00:30Do you have your towel with you today?

0:00:31I have my towel nearby because you always need to have your towel with you.

0:00:35You do indeed.

0:00:36That's what we learn, things we learn from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

0:00:39Great book.

0:00:42Yeah, yeah, love it. I grew up with the BBC miniseries that they did in the early 80s,

0:00:51which is on one level horribly dated and yet sort of like adorably horribly dated,

0:00:57And I loved that so much and the books.

0:01:02And then I had never heard the radio drama before

0:01:05a few years ago and the radio play is hilarious too.

0:01:08So it's all I love.

0:01:10And you're gonna love Douglas Adams for retelling that story

0:01:13in as many formats as possible.

0:01:15It's like how many different ways could that guy

0:01:17get paid again for telling that story?

0:01:20But that's one of the things I always appreciated

0:01:23about Douglas Adams.

0:01:25My favorite version is the Stephen Fry audiobook.

0:01:28- Oh, so that's interesting.

0:01:31I haven't heard that.

0:01:32I haven't heard that.

0:01:33I've heard that. - Oh, it's so good.

0:01:34- I've only listened to the original audio,

0:01:36the radio plays that they did on the BBC radio.

0:01:41- Oh, it's very good.

0:01:42- All right, I'll add that to my collection of every,

0:01:44'cause I have it in all these formats too.

0:01:47That's the other thing about it.

0:01:48I've seen it or collected it in all those different formats.

0:01:53Oh, trust me, you need this one. It's excellent.

0:01:55And then the subsequent books are told by Martin Freeman.

0:01:59This book by -- they're wrote by Martin Freeman.

0:02:03So, you know, the connection.

0:02:04-Yep. -Because he became...

0:02:07-42. Anyway, Episode 42. We have to talk about it.

0:02:11-Indeed.

0:02:12So we do have some follow-up and follow-out today.

0:02:16Upgrading Solomon wrote in.

0:02:19Because last week, we were talking about,

0:02:21you know, the utility of a larger iPad,

0:02:22and we were talking about being able to have multiple apps on screen and that kind of thing.

0:02:26But obviously there is more, there is even more utility in the idea of having an iPad

0:02:32Pro with an improved digitizer and a stylus made by Apple.

0:02:36We're going to wrap around to this again, which we've spoken about in the past, but

0:02:39I wanted to just bring it up because it seems like all the stars are aligning.

0:02:44If you look at the new Notes app and stuff like that and the tools that are in there.

0:02:48I am very excited about the notion of a large iPad with a pen input.

0:02:53I think that that would be really, really cool.

0:02:55And Salma mentioned, like, with the Surface, I think this is, you know, would be nice,

0:03:00there is a button on the Surface that opens OneNote.

0:03:02You just press the button and it automatically opens OneNote on the Silas.

0:03:05And it'd be pretty cool if you could do that.

0:03:07You press a button, it opens the Notes app or something, and you could just start scribbling

0:03:10away.

0:03:11Well, you know my feelings about pens.

0:03:14I have a difficult relationship with pens.

0:03:17I'm not a great--it's my own fault. I'm not a--I'm terrible at handwriting penmanship.

0:03:23Penmanship is my worst skill. In school I always got marked down for bad penmanship.

0:03:29My handwriting is, you know, it went at its best, at its height it looked terrible, and

0:03:34now with all the years that I've spent not writing with--since I have digital devices,

0:03:39my handwriting now is like caveman scrawl. I would--in college we would copy edit the

0:03:45pages of the newspaper when they would when we were working on the issues and as editor-in-chief

0:03:52especially I would write on the pages like corrections and stuff and that was sort of

0:03:57that became legendary of incomprehensible notes on pages like what does this say something about

0:04:04a toupee um no it's nothing about a toupee but uh yeah so I have a difficult relationship with

0:04:13pens because it's not the input format for me, but I agree one of the real shames of

0:04:18the iPad all along has been that the digitizer is just not very good. It's, I mean, it's

0:04:22perfectly fine for what it is for fingers, but everybody who has tried, if you ask anyone

0:04:29who's built iPad styluses, iPad pens, they will tell you that, you know, it's problematic.

0:04:37The digitizer is not as high resolution as it should be, and it's not pressure sensitive,

0:04:41which is why they end up building these pressure-sensitive Bluetooth pens to sort of read the pressure

0:04:46from the other side. And it would be nice if Apple, you know, even if Apple doesn't

0:04:51come up with its own pen, even if it didn't do that, if it just built into the OS and

0:04:58into an iPad Pro kind of device, you know, a higher resolution digitizer and pressure

0:05:03sensitivity and have it be kind of like, you know, it's there and either there's an Apple

0:05:08pen that you can get or there's a, you know, it's just a third-party opportunity. That

0:05:13would be good because I definitely hear especially from all the artists out there and having

0:05:17worked with Serenity Caldwell for all those years at Macworld, you know, she made me well

0:05:21aware of this as an issue. And this is one of those cases where Microsoft with the Surface

0:05:24was just way ahead. Like, I think they changed digitizers with the Surface 3 and I had heard

0:05:29that it was not as good, but Surface and Surface 2 had really good digitizers and that was

0:05:34a way for them to provide a little more, give them differentiation. And I heard from artists

0:05:40who said, and famously there was the guy from Penny Arcade wrote a bunch of articles about

0:05:43it, about how Surface ended up being a really great sketch tool because it had, you know,

0:05:49it had better support for art stuff than the iPad did. And you know, I always read that

0:05:54and thought if I'm, you know, if I'm at Apple working on the iPad, I'd point to stuff like

0:05:58that and say this is a market we should probably try to cover at some point because we've got,

0:06:03know, we're doing pretty well, but you know, we could lose that. That's that

0:06:07should be our audience, right? That's a creative professional. We, you know, I know

0:06:11I know we are bigger than that now, but still that's part of Apple's heritage

0:06:15and why would we not be the go-to? Look at how many people try to use the iPad

0:06:19for sketches now with these pointing tools that are so limited compared to

0:06:23what we could build in and, you know, maybe the iPad Pro. We've said this

0:06:26before, a lot of our iPad dreams are being invested in the iPad Pro, I think.

0:06:31you know, like having a new product gives them reasons to add features to the iOS,

0:06:37having the iPad sales be flat helps too in the sense that it's like, how do we

0:06:42reinvigorate it? And so, you know, I worry that we've invested a little too much

0:06:47hope, there's a little too much wish casting going into this mythical big

0:06:53iPad, but yeah, it would be great to see.

0:06:58Just going back to something you mentioned a moment ago, I think if Apple put the work

0:07:02in to improve the digitizer and that kind of stuff and the pressure sensitivity, they're

0:07:06gonna make their own stylus.

0:07:09You would think.

0:07:10I think it would be kind of crazy.

0:07:11You would think.

0:07:12You would think.

0:07:13Showing it with the pen and the marketing shots is what sells the device.

0:07:17Because I think that has to be more than just big iPad.

0:07:21Like it has to do something.

0:07:22And if this is the one that works with the stylus, that would make sense to me.

0:07:26It depends on if they think that there's a big enough market for that piece of hardware.

0:07:30They could.

0:07:31They could.

0:07:32They could work with a partner too.

0:07:33I mean, they've done that before.

0:07:35They could have demos on stage where they say, "We've been working with PenMaker X here

0:07:41and AppMaker X here," or even like, "We've been working with paper and look at what we've

0:07:48done with them in the last couple of weeks in the lab using the new APIs and blah, blah,

0:07:53blah."

0:07:54They could do that too.

0:07:55their levels there. I think you're right, they could do their own thing because they're

0:07:59gonna want to demo it and they can sell that in the stores or they bundle it with a device

0:08:02depending on how they want to handle it. But I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility

0:08:08that they could just let it be with partners and highlight it that way. It depends on how

0:08:13important a market that is and whether this is something that they think is integral to

0:08:17this product or whether it's sort of a thing that a small group of people will be really

0:08:21excited about, so it adds to the strength of the product, but not, you know, because

0:08:25if you want to—you don't want that product necessarily tied too closely to the pen, because

0:08:32I don't know if you want that product to be thought of as the one that comes with a pen,

0:08:36or the one that has a pen. So I think it's a line they've got to walk. If you see what

0:08:42I mean there, like, if you go too far down that path, it's like the iPad that comes with

0:08:45a pen, and I'm not sure that's the message they want to send either.

0:08:49I don't know. Maybe for people who love pens, it's more exciting as the iPad that comes

0:08:54with a pen!

0:08:57I think that there are some avenues that you're missing for why it would be a good thing to

0:09:05be, it's the one that comes with the pen, like all of enterprise and all of education.

0:09:13And if they do, you know, if this is where they roll out some undiscovered features of

0:09:17iOS 9, that there's an iOS 9 update that enables, you know, more digital ink kind of things

0:09:25in apps, and you know, maybe there's a bigger story there.

0:09:28I just, I feel like there's a spectrum of possibilities here that goes from it being

0:09:33like a full-on embrace of pen input to a kind of all the way over to the other end, which

0:09:38is it's there and the people who care about it will be excited about it, but the Apple's

0:09:42not going to make a big deal about it and sort of like let that be a third party opportunity.

0:09:46And I think in them, you know, in between there are there are lots of possibilities

0:09:50too. So we'll have to see. I'm not discounting it as as important. I think it's important.

0:09:54I think it's a question of how hard Apple hits it and whether they hit that on stage

0:09:59or whether that's something that just sort of like comes in a press release about oh,

0:10:02you know, or they mention on stage that, oh, well, we've worked with institutions and education

0:10:07and health care and they love it. It just depends on how hard they want to hit it because

0:10:12Do they think the biggest audience for this

0:10:13is people who are gonna be like, "Yeah, pens."

0:10:15Or is the biggest audience gonna be people who are like,

0:10:18"Woo, big screen, it's cool."

0:10:21And that the fear, 'cause I do think there's a fear there

0:10:25that if you overemphasize the pen,

0:10:27you're gonna turn some people off who are like,

0:10:29"Well, but I don't want a pen.

0:10:31"I don't wanna use a pen."

0:10:31So you gotta modulate that.

0:10:33By the way, this is fun to talk about it.

0:10:35This is why it bugs me when people criticize Apple

0:10:40about things that are like implying

0:10:43that Apple hasn't given it thought.

0:10:45And this happens a lot on the internet, right?

0:10:47It's like, I can't believe they didn't think of this.

0:10:49It's like, you know what?

0:10:50They thought of that.

0:10:51'Cause what we're going through now

0:10:53is like a product marketing debate.

0:10:55This is like the kind of thing that happened

0:10:56in Phil Schiller's group all the time, right?

0:10:59And that's a tough job because like this,

0:11:01there's no right answer here.

0:11:03This is complicated.

0:11:05- Yeah, because me and you are both coming at this

0:11:07from different angles and we are both Apple's customers.

0:11:09The advantage we would have is at Apple, we would have lots of research, although, you

0:11:14know, who says the research isn't conflicting too?

0:11:16And the research isn't, they probably don't have research that says, "We asked iPad Pro

0:11:22buyers what they wanted."

0:11:24You know, they could maybe do some of that, but they have to couch it in certain ways

0:11:28that it doesn't give away what they're doing.

0:11:30But they do have some, you know, internal market research that's pretty powerful that

0:11:33they can use for this sort of thing.

0:11:35But it's a question, how do you market?

0:11:39Let's assume the iPad Pro exists.

0:11:41Now that product, and has the features that are already locked in, right?

0:11:46That was decided on based on understanding of the market and what they want to target.

0:11:51And that's complicated.

0:11:53And then explaining what that product is to the public is a challenge.

0:11:58Because even if it's literally the same product, how you market it can completely change how

0:12:03how people view it and you risk, you know, I could make the argument that you risk going

0:12:09kind of off the edge if you make it too much about the pen because a lot of people are

0:12:13going to get turned off and I guess those are people like me, we're like well being

0:12:16a pen whatever but it's not for me so I guess I won't buy that one but you also risk underselling

0:12:22it and losing your most important point if you don't talk about it. It's like fantasy

0:12:26Apple marketing that we're doing here.

0:12:28That's what we're here for.

0:12:32But there's no way to win. Fortunately, there's also no way to lose.

0:12:36So moving on with our follow-up this week. So we do have a mic at the movies later on

0:12:40today. We're going to be talking about Say Anything, another classic 80s movie from Jason's

0:12:45Selection. But I wanted to mention, actually, if we're doing a bit of follow-out, that I

0:12:50did another mic at the movies this week.

0:12:54How is that possible? How is it possible that you could do another mic at the movies? Because

0:12:57we only did one show this week and this is it. How could that be, Myke? How could there

0:13:02be another episode of Upgrade with a Myke at the Movies?

0:13:05- Uh, Casey Liss asked me to do one.

0:13:10- But Casey Liss doesn't host Upgrade on the Great Relay FM Network, so how would that

0:13:14work? I don't need... Is Casey here right now? Is Casey out there right now? I don't

0:13:18understand, Myke.

0:13:19- I'm sorry, Jason.

0:13:21- Do you have other podcasts? Are you on other podcasts with other hosts who aren't me?

0:13:27I am, I'm afraid. I'm sorry to say, I'm sorry this is such a harsh realization for you today.

0:13:35Maybe I should have spaced all this news out a little bit more, but I did do, me and Jason.

0:13:40Oh no!

0:13:41JC, I'll call him JC now. We did...

0:13:46Who sent you shells and cheese, Myke? And who sent you a lovely container of Manchego

0:13:52was dispatched to you by an individual workman. Just, you know, who loves you is what I'm

0:13:58saying.

0:13:59It is peculiar, like, the parallels between you and Casey, in that you both sent me cheese.

0:14:03You both wanted to talk about movies with me.

0:14:06No, I sent you cheese. Casey sent you Velveeta.

0:14:08He sent me processed cheese-like product.

0:14:12Goo in a package. Let's be clear. Mine came from a sheep. His came from, I don't know,

0:14:17an extruder in a factory somewhere.

0:14:20We spoke about "Sneakers."

0:14:22Yeah, this is "Analog 45," is that right?

0:14:26That is correct.

0:14:27All right, "Sneakers," great movie.

0:14:29I enjoyed it a lot.

0:14:30Did you like it?

0:14:32Spoilers.

0:14:33Okay, just listen.

0:14:35People can listen to "Analog," if they'd like to hear that.

0:14:39All I'll say is, you may feel better about all of this when you listen to how I felt

0:14:45about that movie.

0:14:46Okay.

0:14:47That's all I'll say.

0:14:48All right.

0:14:49If you didn't like it, that's going to make Dan Morin sad. That's one of his favorites,

0:14:52too.

0:14:53Well, Dan will have to listen to it.

0:14:55Dan, okay. All right, that's good follow-up. Good to know. Other podcasts are available

0:14:59that have Micah the Movies, which was invented here. It's okay. I like that that's spreading.

0:15:04Like the #AskUpgrade. I like that it's sort of such a good idea originated here on Upgrade

0:15:09that Upgrade is exerting its influence on other podcasts. I'm going to take it like

0:15:13that.

0:15:14That was actually what Casey said at the start of the show. There are a bunch of things that

0:15:18come from this show, like follow out is one, verticals are another, we have the hashtag

0:15:22feedback system.

0:15:25This show is a trendsetter.

0:15:27We're innovators, Myke.

0:15:28We are innovators.

0:15:29We really are.

0:15:30So this is why people listen, I think.

0:15:33Innovation.

0:15:34Hashtag innovation.

0:15:36Oh, I had some follow out too.

0:15:39Oh yeah?

0:15:40Speaking of Casey List, I wanted to do some follow out about Accidental Tech Podcast,

0:15:46which is a small boutique podcast about technology featuring three people that you've never really

0:15:51heard of and all they do is talk about programming all the time so it's not, you know, not widely

0:15:56listened to because they spend all their time talking about objective-C and Swift and, you

0:16:03know, curly brackets and square brackets and things. Anyway.

0:16:07But Jason, I thought we were talking about Swift today.

0:16:10We are talking about Swift today, a more popular Swift. Anyway, ATP, you may not have heard

0:16:18of it, but they did an episode where, in episode 122, where they were talking about John Syracuse's

0:16:23wallet. And he told this story because he has a huge wallet apparently and keeps it

0:16:28in his backpack. And then they told the story about how he left the backpack at my house,

0:16:32which he did. And that made me laugh that I was listening to them talk about John leaving

0:16:37his backpack at my house, which is totally true. We said goodbye and everybody piled

0:16:41into that little, that, uh, well, not little car, but there were too many people to fit

0:16:44in that car. Um, that was effectively a little car. Yeah. Well, it turned into a little car.

0:16:49We were going to get an Uber and then there was, nah, we can fit. And then it was, well,

0:16:52you can, you theoretically, you can fit in there. Um, and then, you know, we're cleaning

0:16:57up and stuff and then knock, knock, it's John Syracuse has appeared at my door again to

0:17:01get his backpack, which is just laying right there on the floor. He knew exactly where

0:17:04it was. So did he lose it or did he just leave without it? I'll leave that as an

0:17:09exercise for the listener. But I just wanted to ask, do you have a wallet and

0:17:13how big is it and what's in it? I'm curious. I wanted to do some wallet

0:17:18comparison. I know vital stuff, but I'm curious.

0:17:21Wallets are a source of eternal frustration for me. I have one and I

0:17:27hate it and I've never liked any wallet I've ever owned. I keep a few cards in

0:17:35there like a few credit cards and stuff. Well, debit cards, one credit card.

0:17:40I have some ID, I have a pass for my co-working space, I keep my glasses

0:17:47cleaner like a little microfiber cloth in there. I have some Canadian

0:17:53dollars and I have some euros so I have like one bill of each. If you find yourself in Canada you've got money.

0:18:02That is exactly the reason. This doesn't happen to me so much anymore. This sounds like a really weird start to a story.

0:18:08But when I used to fly into the US for cheaper than I do now because these days I tend to get better flights.

0:18:17I would find myself flying through Canada a lot and I would end up in a Canadian airport

0:18:25where I would need to buy food and it would always be a palaver trying to get money to pay at the airport.

0:18:32So it basically just came to the point of I one time went to like an ATM that was in the airport,

0:18:40took out some cash and have kept some in my wallet in case it happens again.

0:18:45I don't even know where to begin. First off, I want to give you extra credit for—you

0:18:52know, we joke about you being hovering over the Atlantic and losing a lot of your Britishisms

0:18:57because you talk to so many Americans on a regular basis, but you just use "Palaver,"

0:19:02and that is as British as it comes, so good for you. I was going to say, "Good on you,

0:19:07mate," but that would be if you were Australian, which you're not. So thumbs up to that.

0:19:13I, again, I'll just say for efficiency's sake,

0:19:16shouldn't you, do you literally keep Canadian money

0:19:19in your wallet because otherwise you may pass

0:19:22through Canada and have forgotten to put it back in there?

0:19:25And so all the rest of the time, for like 99% of the time,

0:19:28you're carrying around Canadian money just because

0:19:31if the moment you take it out of the wallet is the moment

0:19:33that you're going to be passing through the Toronto airport

0:19:35and need to buy some, you know, I don't know,

0:19:38maple syrup on poutine.

0:19:40It's basically like Schrodinger's dollars.

0:19:43- Okay.

0:19:44- You know?

0:19:44But now it's also, I just keep, it's one bill followed up.

0:19:48Usually I have some dollars in there as well,

0:19:50but I have quite a few dollars left over

0:19:53from the San Francisco trip.

0:19:55So they have all been taken out now

0:19:56and they're just waiting on my dresser

0:19:58until I go back in either September or October.

0:20:01- But you've got your emergency Canadian money

0:20:03in there regardless.

0:20:04- Emergency money.

0:20:05- How much is it?

0:20:06It's like five or 10 or?

0:20:07- I think it's a 10 and I have 20 euros in there as well

0:20:10the same reason. That's good. Same reason. Because you may pass through someplace that uses euros if

0:20:14you go through Ireland or you go through anywhere, you know, Germany, something like that, to switch

0:20:19planes. Okay, that's a fascinating detail, that you have Canadian money in there. But I don't

0:20:28like my wallet. It's just not very nice. Is it a bi-fold or a tri-fold? It's a bi-fold. Okay,

0:20:34good. Yeah, only John Saracusa seems to have the trifold. My wallet story is that I have

0:20:41a black leather wallet that I think my wife bought for me, replacing a wallet that she

0:20:47bought for another black leather wallet she bought for me like 15 years ago that had finally

0:20:51fallen apart. I used to wear my—have my wallet in my back pocket, but in my 20s I

0:20:57started to have hip pain, and it turns out that I actually have really slight hip dysplasia

0:21:02that had never been diagnosed and does run in my family.

0:21:06And so I, but the hip pain was bad enough that I started putting it in my front pocket

0:21:10because the back pocket was, it was actually kind of painful to have anything in my back

0:21:13pockets.

0:21:14I did that for a little while and then I decided that, then like John said, I was like, I'm

0:21:19just going to put this in my backpack most of the time and I don't need the wallet most

0:21:24of the time.

0:21:25So the funny thing is though, this is the wallet my wife bought for me.

0:21:27It comes with the little mini wallet, little shuttlecraft.

0:21:32I don't even know.

0:21:33I think you're supposed to put things in it that you...

0:21:36I don't even know the purpose of the little thing,

0:21:37but it's like a little bi-fold thing inside the big wallet

0:21:42that you can put your ID in.

0:21:44I don't even know what's supposed to go in there.

0:21:45Do you know what I'm talking about?

0:21:47- The little window area.

0:21:49- Yeah, well, this one has a...

0:21:50It's like a removable thing.

0:21:51It does have a little window thing,

0:21:52but it's removable. - Oh, yeah, I have one of those.

0:21:54- It's like a little probe spaceship

0:21:57that comes out of the mothership and lands on the planet, right?

0:21:59- You send the small wallet out, right?

0:22:01- Exactly.

0:22:02So the big one stays, big wallet stays in orbit, small one.

0:22:04This is turning into like, I'm turning into Merlin Man

0:22:06right before our eyes here.

0:22:07This is, okay, anyway, anyway.

0:22:09The, that's other follow out that we're not gonna do.

0:22:14So that one, the Shuttlecraft wallet is now my wallet.

0:22:19So I decided as nice as that other wallet was,

0:22:21I took like four things and put it

0:22:24in a little tiny Shuttlecraft wallet.

0:22:26So I've got like a credit card, I think I've got my credit card and my ATM card, my driver's

0:22:32license and like my medical insurance card so that again if they find me bleeding by

0:22:37the side of the road they, you know, will pay for my hospital or whatever.

0:22:43And that's basically it.

0:22:44Sometimes I'll stick a bill in there, although I generally don't even carry cash.

0:22:49And this is what fascinated me about that they're asking Jon about the wallet because

0:22:52I'm on the other extreme. John's got like his library card in there and some like I

0:22:56don't know for all I know.

0:22:57He had like the the my favorite was the business card of the hairdresser.

0:23:05Right you can put that in the you could actually put that in the and it's his barber who retired

0:23:09that was the best part is that not only was it pointless before but now it's extra pointless.

0:23:14So I just went I just kind of divested myself of all that stuff and and every now I've got

0:23:17little stack of cards. I actually had that wallet too. The big wallet is on my armoire

0:23:25in the basket full of like miscellaneous stuff. So if I need to fish out my loyalty card,

0:23:30although every loyalty program just lets you put in your phone number so you don't actually

0:23:34need the card number, but I can dig that stuff out if I need to have it. But I just I was

0:23:39fascinated that this what a time to be alive with a wide range of human experiences. Everything

0:23:45from John Siracusa's giant wallet over here to people who don't have giant wallets on

0:23:50the other end I guess. Anyway, I was fascinated by that and now I know that you have Canadian

0:23:55money in your wallet. That's great. If Guy English ever needs a loan, if Rene Ritchie

0:24:00ever needs a loan, they can come to you.

0:24:02They can call me up.

0:24:03It's got the Queen on it, right? It's got to be practically. Does it have the Queen

0:24:08on it? Or does it have some mysterious Canadian celebrity that nobody's ever heard of?

0:24:13No, and they have more modern pictures of the Queen.

0:24:16Oh, so it's older Queen, not like coronation era Queen.

0:24:19We're saying, "No, no, no, she's still 25."

0:24:22We're going for old Queen. Old Queen or no Queen.

0:24:26I like old Queen, you know.

0:24:27Like Bohemian Rhapsody.

0:24:28Back when Freddie Mercury was still alive, yeah.

0:24:30Hey, hey, hey, hey.

0:24:34Let's take a sponsor break now.

0:24:36Just one last thing.

0:24:37When we were in San Francisco, Ren took a picture of the two of us

0:24:41and said that it was like looking at father and son.

0:24:44And I'm getting really concerned about this.

0:24:47Like our humor is now starting to diverge.

0:24:49- That's 'cause your beard makes you look that much older.

0:24:53That's why she said that.

0:24:54I'm your prematurely gray haired son and you're the...

0:24:57Anyway, yeah, you know, Myke,

0:25:00I have really enjoyed this part of the conversation,

0:25:03which has been extremely bizarre.

0:25:05I can't wait for the email from somebody who says,

0:25:07"Stop having fun on your podcast.

0:25:10I don't listen to it to hear you guys have fun.

0:25:12Get to the serious business.

0:25:14But we'll get to the serious business.

0:25:15Don't send us that angry letter.

0:25:17Because we'll get to the serious business in a moment after this word from our friends

0:25:21at SMILE.

0:25:22Right, Myke?

0:25:23Yes, indeed.

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0:27:28supporting this show and all of Relay FM.

0:27:30- Yay.

0:27:33- So, this, well yesterday, right, as we recorded this.

0:27:38- We had, there's a show, there's an episode

0:27:41that's like upgrade 41.9 that will never exist.

0:27:46- Yeah.

0:27:47- You and I were like rubbing our hands together.

0:27:48We're like, oh yeah, we're in our document.

0:27:50like, we're gonna really give it to Apple.

0:27:52We're gonna back Taylor Swift.

0:27:54We're gonna say why Apple, you know, doing a free trial

0:27:58by not paying anybody for it was a questionable practice.

0:28:03And then the story just totally turned around

0:28:07at the end of the day.

0:28:08Well, probably while you were asleep,

0:28:09although your sleep has been so bad lately,

0:28:11maybe you were awake then.

0:28:12- No, I was asleep.

0:28:13- You were asleep then.

0:28:14Then the whole story turned around.

0:28:15So you went to bed thinking that this show

0:28:17was going to be about one thing.

0:28:19And then it's totally changed overnight

0:28:23while you were sleeping because Eddy Cue appeared on Twitter

0:28:26and reversed things.

0:28:29I guess we should back up.

0:28:31But it's just such a dramatic change.

0:28:34- Yeah, we should kind of give a little bit of a background

0:28:38to understand what's happening

0:28:39for anybody that isn't aware.

0:28:40So when Apple unveiled their music service at WWDC,

0:28:45they said that they were going to be doing three months free.

0:28:48Everybody was going to get it, the first three months of Apple Music were going to be free.

0:28:54In the same event they were talking about being fair to artists and offering paid services

0:28:59and not free services because they feel like people need to get paid and they were talking

0:29:03a lot about independence and stuff like that.

0:29:06Since then there has been some grumbling about the free trial period but it's been mainly

0:29:11ignored.

0:29:13And after just seeing people on Twitter saying that there have been some small indie labels

0:29:18and stuff like that that have been complaining about it. But then out of the blue on Sunday

0:29:22morning, so Sunday the 21st, Taylor Swift writes on her Tumblr blog a very well written

0:29:33open letter to Apple pointing out why she believes that the free period for Apple Music

0:29:41is unacceptable because it is a three month trial where no artists would be paid during

0:29:45that period of time. That's what Apple decided to do.

0:29:50And then so basically you can imagine the internet caught fire. And as the day went

0:29:56along, there was a lot more reports coming out and people were reminding others about

0:30:00the fact that Apple were paying an extra 1.5% or something because of this free period,

0:30:07which is kind of…

0:30:08Well, well, yeah. Well, okay. So I'll stop you there just to say because I heard this

0:30:12from people to. What Apple said is that the agreements they were reaching with labels

0:30:17were for a bigger percentage than what other streaming services do, like, yeah, from 70

0:30:23to 71 point something percent. Somebody did the math and figured out that, you know, it

0:30:29would take a long time to get that money, to have that offset the freebie. But the way

0:30:34Apple described it was so weaselly because it was sort of like, well, we negotiated a

0:30:38a higher rate in part to be in part because we were asking for a longer period. I don't

0:30:46know how linked to those really were or if that was just one of the things thrown in.

0:30:51So I feel like they didn't say, "Well, this is why." It was more like, "Well, that's one

0:30:55of the reasons why," and I kind of, you know, I think that's Weasley. I think that's not—I

0:31:01don't think there's a direct clear linkage, so we shouldn't assume that that's the reason

0:31:05that they're paying a higher percentage. It may also be for other things that they negotiated,

0:31:10it may be because labels are—and record companies are—well, labels are record companies—labels

0:31:16are wary of dealing with Apple, and so Apple needed to give them more in order to make—to

0:31:23grease the skids. There are lots of reasons why they negotiated that rate. So anyway,

0:31:29I just wanted to throw that in there, that it's not necessarily a trade-off of like,

0:31:35give us three months free and we'll give you" and even the Apple statement says

0:31:38you know it's one of the reasons not like the reason. So then basically as you

0:31:43can imagine the day went on with people taking sites. Yes. For and against

0:31:49Apple's decision on this. I don't understand how anybody could take a for

0:31:54position but I guess we'll get to that in a minute. And then very late in the

0:31:59evening what time was it in San Francisco? 830 and it was you know I

0:32:04I think it was around 8 or 8.30, so 11, 11.30 Eastern Time.

0:32:08Eddy Cue tweets a selection of tweets, basically saying,

0:32:12"We love indie artists and they will be paid.

0:32:15Don't worry, during that three-month period, Apple will pay."

0:32:19And, you know, basically, "We hear you, Taylor Swift,

0:32:21and indie artists love Apple," mimicking Taylor's big thing.

0:32:24And then Eddy Cue made a selection of phone calls

0:32:27to a bunch of journalists.

0:32:29Yeah, talked to Bill Boyd.

0:32:30Talked to Re/Code, I think.

0:32:32Yep, Re/Code was one of them. Basically just kind of saying a few other little tidbits about all of this.

0:32:38Basically just making sure that everybody had heard Apple on this and saying that...

0:32:42Basically it's kind of a bit unclear how much people are being paid. I think you can kind of

0:32:48read between the lines to say that Apple will pay the industry average for streaming during this period of time.

0:32:54Yeah, and that's, you know, it's a little bit of damage control. I think it's interesting...

0:33:02indie labels and artists were balking at this all along.

0:33:06I mean there's so much here and it's so complicated that it's hard to,

0:33:10if you're not inside in the industry, it's hard to

0:33:13know all the details. It's so many different moving parts.

0:33:16Yeah there's a lot of it that we can't understand being on the outside.

0:33:19Exactly, exactly. My impression is that Apple made the announcement of Apple

0:33:23Music without even having deals with most of the labels, which is

0:33:27quite a game of chicken because they're basically saying, "Well we're launching it,

0:33:29So are you in or are you out? And trying to shift it back and like put pressure on the labels

0:33:34but the labels don't sign then Apple launches with some labels missing and

0:33:37That's not good for I think that's worse for Apple than it is for the labels not being there

0:33:43Yep, because people don't say all ex label. They just be like

0:33:47App-wise this music not here. Yeah. Yeah, so

0:33:52You know, there's so there's that whole aspect of it

0:33:55The thing that got me

0:33:59I mean, the Taylor Swift did this. I mean, she said, "Look, I'm fine, but I think this

0:34:04is a problem for new musicians and independent artists because this is a bad deal." And she's

0:34:09been really outspoken about this in withholding her album from Spotify. We've talked about

0:34:13it in the past, this idea that we may end up with a situation where music streaming

0:34:20services are more like Netflix than they are now in the sense that Netflix doesn't have

0:34:25new releases. They age a little bit and then they show up on Netflix and that's because

0:34:30the new releases they want you to pay to buy them or rent them. And that, you know, Taylor

0:34:35Swift has done that to great success with her album 1989 that, you know, it's sold incredibly

0:34:43well because you have to buy it. I mean, you can pirate it, but you can't stream it. You

0:34:47have to buy it. And I think maybe that that's where this is going to go where big name releases

0:34:53from big artists may not be streamable because--and that's a little more Netflix-y. But Taylor

0:34:59Swift knows that she's not the best example here and that she wants artists to be compensated.

0:35:08I think she's really smart and I think she's principled and she has a voice that can carry--obviously

0:35:18happened. Carrie, further than an independent artist or label or even kind of a grousing

0:35:25record label, can do some different things.

0:35:30And she used her--

0:35:31She's incredibly powerful, just fundamentally.

0:35:34Yeah, she used her pulpit, she used her power to broadcast this message about Apple being

0:35:39unfair. And what's funny is, I heard about this, what, a week or two ago, and when they

0:35:45announced the Apple Music thing, I assumed that Apple was essentially paying for those

0:35:49three months using their cash because they wanted to establish themselves and they got

0:35:53to catch up with their competitors in streaming. When I heard that Apple was just going to

0:36:00the labels and saying, "You're going to eat the three months," I thought that that was

0:36:05ridiculous, right? But Taylor Swift is the one who made everybody know that, "Did you

0:36:10You know that this is what's happening, that the most profitable company in the world is

0:36:15asking the record labels and artists to forego their money for three months so that this

0:36:22company can launch its service and catch up with its rivals?

0:36:26The argument is that it's better for everybody if Apple comes in and succeeds with this because

0:36:32Apple's not going to have a free tier like Spotify.

0:36:36And I can see that argument, but I think it's a better argument to say, you know, you're

0:36:41a giant company that has a lot of cash, and you're behind in an area that you want to

0:36:45catch up.

0:36:47Pay the money.

0:36:48Like, pay the money.

0:36:49Get behind.

0:36:50If you want to launch this, you're not doing this because you want to save the music industry,

0:36:53and you're not doing this because you want to give money to artists.

0:36:55You're doing this because it's an important strategic business decision for Apple.

0:37:00So you know what?

0:37:01Pay the money.

0:37:02I admit, if they can get—Eddie Q didn't get where he is by being a pushover, right?

0:37:09He has a reputation for being a tough negotiator on this stuff. And so you could make the business

0:37:18argument that if they can get away with this and play hardball and make everybody pay—the

0:37:24whole music industry pays for Apple to launch its own service—then you could do that. But I would

0:37:29say it looks bad, and I look at that and think, you know, why are you even bothering going

0:37:36down this path? This is your business. You're the one who needs to catch up. You are not

0:37:43an underdog in general. You've got the resources to do it. Just make it happen. Spend the money.

0:37:48Make your service come out of the gate looking good rather than spending your two weeks before

0:37:54trying to get every last dime out of these record company execs that you're dealing with.

0:38:01It's like, you know, it's so it's complicated and I see both sides of it but in the end

0:38:06what feels right to me is that Apple is trying to build a business in a new area where they're

0:38:12behind and they're trying to make a name for themselves by giving away this free three

0:38:18months trial which is very smart I think on their part but it seems wrong for them to

0:38:24to make it seem like Apple's largess is the thing that's getting people to try this, when

0:38:28in fact Apple's not actually giving anything away, they've just asked all the providers

0:38:33to give it away for them in order for them to build the business. That just seems wrong

0:38:36to me.

0:38:38So you know, as you are, I'm a little bit frustrated that we didn't get to have this

0:38:42conversation before Apple reversed the decision on it.

0:38:48I think what's interesting about us having it afterward is that instead the conversation

0:38:55is like, "Okay, well, obviously Apple either felt like they were losing face or people

0:39:04inside Apple who've been saying all along this was the wrong approach have gotten got

0:39:09that moment where they're like, "See? See?" But regardless, it is interesting that the

0:39:14way Eddy Cue framed it was very much like, "You're right, we, you know, we respect artists.

0:39:20We'll pay. We'll pay for it." And that, I think that's really interesting. I don't think

0:39:25anybody's out there standing up and cheering like, "Yay, record companies get more money."

0:39:29And it is true that record companies famously kind of screw over their artists and the artists

0:39:34don't get a lot of money out of it. So it's not like it's necessarily like a victory for

0:39:39the good guys or something like that, but it does feel, it does feel right and I think

0:39:44what Apple was reacting to, is being seen as somebody, you know, Apple is a huge

0:39:49company, they're not seen as an underdog who's trying to save music, and they

0:39:54didn't want to be seen as trying to basically take money out of the hands of

0:39:59artists, even though yes they're also taking money out of the hands of big

0:40:02corporations that are record publishers.

0:40:04Like, because if anything, Apple in

0:40:07In regards to music, in 2015, Apple is closer to Walmart was in 2001 than Apple is to themselves.

0:40:20Does that make sense?

0:40:21They are close to the old dog than they are to actually what they were then.

0:40:27Apple has great strength in so many different areas, but streaming music isn't one, so they

0:40:30need to establish themselves.

0:40:34Swift is interesting because she's got—her take on streaming in general is, like I said

0:40:41before, it's interesting because she's looking at a bigger picture here about streaming

0:40:45being problematic. People don't make a lot—artists don't make a lot of money from streaming

0:40:48either. And that's part of the story here too. So I think there is some hope that Apple,

0:40:56you know—is Apple going to change that? Maybe, maybe not. The more—the additional

0:41:01percentage that they're paying is slight. It's not like Apple is gonna finally make

0:41:07all the musical artists fine with streaming and the streaming economics.

0:41:13I think there's a difference though in the way that it's happening because Apple is all

0:41:17revenue and it's not advertised. I think there is more money to be made.

0:41:21Yes, I agree. The person, you know, people who did the calculations would say that the

0:41:27percentage that they're giving versus the three-month trial that the map, that map doesn't

0:41:34really add up for a long time. It's, it's, that's not going to offset the three-month

0:41:37free trial. But the idea that they're going to, Apple's going to push people to think

0:41:43of streaming as something that is paid for, and that there isn't a free tier, and I'm

0:41:50sure the music industry would really love it if the concept of something beyond something

0:41:54like Pandora, if something like Spotify, where you can pick what you listen to, offers something

0:42:00for free, I think the music industry would love for that to go away, and this be perceived

0:42:05as a premium product. You get access to everything by paying, and then there would be more money,

0:42:10I think they feel like there'd be more money in the pot.

0:42:13I mean, I still have, I still want to say my piece on this, though, as to why I thought

0:42:18that they were wrong, even though now, you know, it's been reversed, so they're packing

0:42:22everybody's good books again I suppose but fundamentally my main problem with

0:42:28this is and and I don't know why anybody can't see this is work for free for three

0:42:35months just do that because that's what Apple were asking well I asked I got a

0:42:42rise out of people on Twitter and I was being fully tongue-in-cheek but I said

0:42:47you know, when HBO gives away the season premiere of all their shows twice a year

0:42:53on a free preview weekend in order to get people to get excited, they pay, you

0:43:00know, they're still paying for those shows. They don't ask everybody on those

0:43:04shows to work the first show for free and then pay. And yes, that's not a

0:43:08perfect concept, but think about that for a minute. Just because the distributor

0:43:12wants to market their product doesn't mean the people who made the work that's

0:43:17being distributed forego a salary. And that's essentially what Apple was doing here, is

0:43:22that. The other example I would give, and I realize that I have a maybe unique perspective

0:43:29in this, is I get my hackles up a little bit about Apple posing as the benefactor, when

0:43:37in fact what they're doing is they're just taking the product of somebody else and acting

0:43:42like they're the ones who are giving it to you. Because that's actually what happened

0:43:46with Macworld for years is that when you bought a Mac,

0:43:49you got a deal for like six free issues of Macworld.

0:43:52And the way it was phrased was always

0:43:54a gift from Apple to you.

0:43:55Apple didn't pay for those issues.

0:44:00That was entirely eaten by Macworld,

0:44:04but Apple wanted it to seem like it was Apple's largess.

0:44:08But behind the scenes, they just made us give it to them.

0:44:10It was like, you wanna be in the box, you give free issues.

0:44:13And that was a good deal, we agreed to it.

0:44:16The thing that always bugged me was Apple wanted to seem like the good guy who was,

0:44:22and leave the impression that it was Apple's...

0:44:24- Apple paid for all of them.

0:44:26- Apple took money out of its own pocket in order to make this ability, make this available

0:44:30to you, and I got that exact same vibe from this, where it felt like, you know, Apple's

0:44:35being generous with their trial period, but the generosity is not actually Apple's.

0:44:40Somebody else behind the scenes that Apple's not gonna even let you know about, that's

0:44:43the actual person who's doing this and giving it away and Apple's just basking in the benefits

0:44:48of it. That set me off a little bit too.

0:44:52I also have no time for the arguments of "Taylor Swift is greedy". Like, I have no time for

0:44:59that argument because she doesn't need this money. She has proven streaming is not important

0:45:06to her business succeeding, right? She made that decision. I genuinely believe she did

0:45:11this because it is something she feels strongly about. And she has made a difference for other

0:45:17people because this is not important to her. By all accounts, it is still not even known

0:45:24if 1989 will be on Apple Music. As Kyle's the Grey and the Jackman pointed out, it wasn't on Beats

0:45:32and Beats was fully paid. I think at this point though, I wouldn't be surprised if part of Eddie's

0:45:37conversation with Taylor when he caught up, as you've caused us a lot of problems today,

0:45:41we would really appreciate it if you would do us a solid here and we'll pretend this never happened.

0:45:47I feel like there might be a little checkmate here of like, you know, you can't play the card of,

0:45:54"Well, 1989 won't be on Apple and here's why," and then Apple changed their mind. Don't you kind of

0:45:59have to give it to them? And wouldn't that be a coup for Apple to say, "First time on streaming,

0:46:031989, here it is." Yeah, and I think that that will happen now.

0:46:06I think it has to, even if it's not as good a deal for Taylor Swift, but maybe that's, you know,

0:46:12maybe that's part of her calculation too, is if they'll do this right then I'll help, you know,

0:46:18I'll pitch in and be a part of this launch and give them a little more credibility because

0:46:24they're asking for people to pay after the three months are over. I was just finding myself getting

0:46:29so angry about this yesterday, because I was putting myself in the position of, and this is,

0:46:34There are a lot of holes in this argument, so you're just going to have to bear with me metaphorically.

0:46:38Let's say that Apple decide that they're going to do a new podcasting service,

0:46:42and it's going to be awesome, it's going to be great, it's going to be everything we've ever wanted.

0:46:47And they contact us and they say, "We want you to be a part of it, but you can't have your ads for three months."

0:46:52And it'd be like, "Okay, it would be really great to be on your service, but now I can't eat."

0:47:00Because the problem is, and I think that maybe some people haven't considered this,

0:47:05when you have a three month period, a quarter of the year,

0:47:10a quarter of the year, if you think about it that way, you can kind of maybe put in perspective as

0:47:14to how long that is, people are going to cancel their Spotify subscriptions. Beats no longer

0:47:20exists. It's actually negative money for artists in this scenario, because not only are they not

0:47:26getting paid by Apple, they're not getting their revenues from other services as well.

0:47:30No one's gonna buy their music during this period who has an iPhone because they can

0:47:34listen to it for free.

0:47:36The knock-on effect of a three-month free trial would have been way larger than just

0:47:42people listening to our music on Apple's music service and we're not getting the money for

0:47:45it.

0:47:46They would also be losing money on music downloads and streams from Apple avenues as well because

0:47:52people would be using Apple Music instead.

0:47:55There were so many problems with this and I'm very pleased that they have decided to

0:47:59make this decision. It just annoys me that they had to go through all of this before

0:48:03they did that. And it also frustrates me in the thought that I love Apple as a company,

0:48:09and I do not like the thought that they are going into these negotiations and being like,

0:48:14"You can't touch us."

0:48:16I'm not sure that there is anything slimier than a music industry negotiation.

0:48:22Oh, of course.

0:48:23And I feel like everybody who comes out of there needs to get hosed down, and that includes

0:48:28and I think that maybe is, like I said earlier, you know, Eddy Cue, I think one of the reasons

0:48:33that Eddy Cue has been successful, from what I hear, is that he's good at that, you know,

0:48:37and now they've got Jimmy Iovine in there too, right? So they've got these people making

0:48:43these negotiations, but the whole thing is slimy, and, you know, and yes, the labels

0:48:48are screwing the artists out of money, and I mean, there's so many things that are messed

0:48:53up about the music industry. But, um, and so I guess what I'm saying is I agree with

0:48:59you, and yet I also kind of have to accept that for Apple to play this game, they have

0:49:04to play this game. And the Apple, there's Apple like in industries where Apple can make

0:49:12their own way, and that's with technology stuff. But once you get into entertainment,

0:49:18harder because there are entrenched players and there is a whole different kind of politics

0:49:26and Apple isn't, I think, able to play by the same playbook that it uses when it's doing

0:49:34products and, you know, doing hardware and software. And this is, I think, a really great

0:49:39example of it, the fact that the Apple TV hasn't come out and that they're still negotiating

0:49:44on the service stuff, the story behind the original iTunes Music Store launch, I mean,

0:49:49these are all weird, probably kind of gross, negotiations going on behind the scenes to

0:49:56make this stuff happen. And, you know, this is, in one way, this is a little like, you

0:50:01know, seeing how the sausage is made by having this come out in public. It may be that all

0:50:05sorts of terrible deals are made behind the scenes. In fact, it's almost certain that

0:50:09terrible deals are made behind the scenes. But this one was either beyond the pale a

0:50:13a little bit or for whatever reason in the big,

0:50:18musicians are really upset about streaming in general

0:50:20'cause streaming doesn't pay very well.

0:50:22So if streaming is the future,

0:50:26I don't think anything here has resolved the issue of,

0:50:29can musicians make any money?

0:50:31Like people would hit songs and hit albums

0:50:34don't make money from streaming.

0:50:36So make chump change.

0:50:39So that issue is still there.

0:50:40So there's all, it's just, it's complicated.

0:50:42And I think that at some point if you're Apple,

0:50:44you're like, we think we can make the world

0:50:45a little bit better,

0:50:47but we can't make it much more than that at this point

0:50:49because of who we're dealing with.

0:50:51I do think that's a part of this.

0:50:53I wanted to say, somebody mentioned the theory,

0:50:56and this is kind of a conspiracy theory,

0:50:57but I think it's interesting.

0:50:58The idea that once Apple is up and running with all of this,

0:51:01then stage two is Apple starts providing more access to,

0:51:06basically what the conspiracy theory was,

0:51:08then Apple can become its own record label

0:51:10and cut direct deals with musicians and change the terms.

0:51:15And that would be an interesting thing that maybe could change the economics of the music

0:51:19industry.

0:51:20I'm skeptical of that, which is why I label it as a conspiracy theory, but you never know.

0:51:24Yeah, I don't know how I feel about that.

0:51:27I feel like you don't want to do a publicity stunt for super bad publicity.

0:51:32That seems crazy.

0:51:33Oh, I certainly agree with that.

0:51:34I don't think this was a publicity stunt at all.

0:51:38I think there's damage control.

0:51:40I think Apple was hoping that they would just make these deals and they'd be able to play

0:51:45hardball and get everybody to agree to the three months free because they want a counterbalance

0:51:50to Spotify and somebody who is on their side in the sense of not offering a free tier and

0:51:55that they figured in the end it would all--everybody would play ball.

0:51:59And it turns out that they were pushing a little too hard and that Taylor Swift was

0:52:03the voice that elevated it to the point--got it out in the open and then they felt like,

0:52:08Well, now that it's out in the open, it's not really defensible, so we're just gonna

0:52:10have to back off and do some damage control.

0:52:12I think that's -- ultimately, I think that's what happened here.

0:52:15Okay, Jason, I'm getting too sad, so let's move on and we can talk about something maybe

0:52:22a little bit more fun.

0:52:23Yeah, now I got bad blood.

0:52:27I could be -- I could drop Taylor Swift references all day, but we should --

0:52:30Oh, yeah?

0:52:31Yeah.

0:52:32Are you a fan?

0:52:33I'm from the 80s, and 1989 is a great combination of sort of like love of 1980s music and modern

0:52:41pop stuff. I love modern pop music. Yeah, no, I like Taylor Swift. My daughter introduced

0:52:46me to Taylor Swift. That is a thing that lots of dads say.

0:52:50I keep meaning to listen to that album, though, so maybe I'll wait to see if it comes up on

0:52:55Apple Music.

0:52:56See if it comes up. It's good. I like it a lot. And it's got an Image and Heap song on

0:52:59at the end. It's like literally all the instruments are played by Image and Heap and then it's

0:53:05just co-written by Taylor Swift and Image and Heap. It's pretty cool and she's one of

0:53:09my favorites so that was kind of a fun discovery that they collaborated on a track on that

0:53:15album.

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0:56:02Video games!

0:56:03>> I mentioned this briefly. I ordered an Xbox One last week when Microsoft announced

0:56:08they were going to bring Xbox 360 compatibility by the end of the year. That was sort of enough

0:56:13to push me over the edge and with it with kids graduations coming I thought

0:56:17that it might make a good surprise gift so I can run I want to report back on

0:56:23that which is I ordered it from Amazon it's a refurbished Xbox one I ordered

0:56:28with gift wrapping got a nice box with blue gift wrapping on it kids got to

0:56:36got to that gift and tore open the wrapping paper and both of them like

0:56:41freaked out. I was really expecting it to be like, "Oh, it's a console," whatever, that

0:56:45they were both like, "Oh, I can't believe it!" They were both super excited, which was

0:56:48great. And my wife and I were thinking of getting them an additional, like, promise

0:56:51of an additional present. And we looked at each other and we're like, "Yeah, we don't

0:56:54need to do that now." It was like, "This one hit. This is a hit. We're just gonna leave

0:56:59it here." So I've got that set up. I actually haven't bought any games for it yet. I'm open

0:57:07into suggestions, you know, we have Destiny on the Xbox 360.

0:57:11I might at some point just buy it for the one,

0:57:14just for the upgraded graphics,

0:57:16but I am looking for some good games to buy,

0:57:20you know, ideally games that, you know,

0:57:22a 10, 11 year old and a 13, 14 year old would play,

0:57:26although cool, you know, indie-ish games like Journey,

0:57:29those kind of atmospheric games for grownups to play,

0:57:34I'd be interested in too.

0:57:36So if people have feedback or if you have feedback,

0:57:38I would love to hear that.

0:57:40They haven't played it though,

0:57:42because we also bought them a bunch of Wii U games,

0:57:43because we have a Wii U and we got them,

0:57:46my son wanted Lego Batman 3 and he and my wife

0:57:49were playing that actually the last couple of days.

0:57:51We got Mario Party 10, which is a huge amount of fun.

0:57:54And we played that some.

0:57:56And then we got Splatoon, which is spectacularly good.

0:58:00And has been-

0:58:01- Splatoon is one of my favorite games of the year so far.

0:58:05- It's so good. - I love that game so much.

0:58:08So much.

0:58:09- So remind me, so what consoles do you have?

0:58:12- All of them.

0:58:13- You have all the consoles, okay.

0:58:14All the great consoles.

0:58:15- All the great consoles.

0:58:16- Okay, Splatoon, well we should play sometime.

0:58:19It's great.

0:58:21It is so, I mean my son went from level one

0:58:24to level like 14 in a day.

0:58:27'Cause he's just like, I gotta keep playing,

0:58:29I gotta keep playing.

0:58:30But it is super fun.

0:58:31And when we did our incomparable podcast

0:58:34about, I keep wanting to say Halo, about Portal.

0:58:39I kept talking about how I really enjoyed

0:58:43just making a mess with the goo

0:58:44that comes out of the various Portal things

0:58:46and just like painting the walls of the levels in Portal 2

0:58:51with all the different kind of goo

0:58:54that come out of little goo dispensers.

0:58:56And so then I see Splatoon and I'm like, oh yeah.

0:58:59It's just, that's what you do is paint,

0:59:02cover things with paint, cover things with ink.

0:59:05And the game mechanic is really good,

0:59:06the multiplayer stuff is good.

0:59:08My son's really enjoying the single player as well.

0:59:11It's just a really great game.

0:59:12And I love that it's,

0:59:14you know, it's the stuff that I love the most

0:59:17about multiplayer stuff, which is it's quick.

0:59:20They auto match everything,

0:59:21unless you've got a bunch of friends

0:59:22that you wanna play with.

0:59:23They're just auto matching levels.

0:59:25You play for three minutes.

0:59:27There's a winner and a loser.

0:59:28It's based entirely on how much of the map

0:59:31is covered with your color ink at the end,

0:59:34which is a great simple way of understanding it.

0:59:37And it uses the Wii U game pad to effect.

0:59:41I always get sad when there are these Wii U games

0:59:43that just mirror what's on the screen,

0:59:46on the TV screen on the game pad,

0:59:47because if you're gonna build a console

0:59:51where the controller has its own screen in it,

0:59:53you should take advantage of it.

0:59:54And Splatoon does that too.

0:59:57So it checked all the boxes for me.

0:59:58I think it's really great.

1:00:01Yeah, it is just a fantastic game.

1:00:03I really, really like it a lot.

1:00:05I've been playing it a ton.

1:00:06It has kind of everything a Nintendo game should have in it.

1:00:13It's fun and it's colorful.

1:00:14The music is just superb.

1:00:16- I know. - And they make a big point

1:00:18of the music in that game.

1:00:20They're adding tons of content,

1:00:22new maps and new weapons over the last few weeks.

1:00:25This is, I think I read this,

1:00:28and I think I got the numbers right.

1:00:29This is the first new brand new Nintendo IP in 10 years?

1:00:34- Yeah, I mean, they have the, the squid thing, right?

1:00:37So it's sort of attached to some character

1:00:40that you've seen before, but--

1:00:42- Uh, not really.

1:00:44- I know where you're going with that.

1:00:45- Well, I mean, I feel like,

1:00:46I feel like that is their tenuous connection

1:00:48to the Nintendo IP is like,

1:00:50hey, you've seen those squids, like, you know,

1:00:53it's the squid from Mario Kart, right?

1:00:56But really it is completely original

1:00:58from all that I can tell.

1:01:00It's not like you're, you know, I'll be Yoshi.

1:01:04You know, you're all just these people

1:01:06and they turn into squids when they're in the ink.

1:01:08And it's brilliant.

1:01:09I mean, it really is brilliant.

1:01:10This is one of those things.

1:01:11This is why, like when I listen to Isometric,

1:01:13I hear this a lot.

1:01:14The, you know, there's the talk about the Wii U.

1:01:16It's like, the Wii U is great.

1:01:18It is not, it is a shame that it's not doing better.

1:01:22Although I understand why it's not doing better.

1:01:24But if once you come to accept that what the Wii U is gonna do is give you great first-party games,

1:01:30and not a lot else, it's great at the first-party games. The first-party games are like,

1:01:38I'm happy we have a Wii U. I don't feel bad. Not only does it play all the old Wii games,

1:01:42some of which we still play, but the new Mario Kart is great, Mario Party 10 is great,

1:01:46Splatoon is fantastic, the Mario 3D World is good, you know, and actually this port

1:01:53that my son got of the LEGO Batman 3 is one of those examples where

1:01:57it's actually been built to take advantage of that gamepad where one

1:02:02player can play on the gamepad and another player can play on the screen so

1:02:05instead of having to do a zoom out or a split screen

1:02:08two people can just play and they're in the same world but they both have their

1:02:11perspectives which is a really nice thing that I kind of assumed wouldn't be

1:02:14there because that's a Wii U specific

1:02:16feature but it's there which is great so so I like that I really like the Wii U I

1:02:20I totally get that if you're committed to, you know, major game releases, it's gonna

1:02:24be a disappointment because it's not gonna get them.

1:02:28But something like Splatoon is the flip side of that, I feel like, where it's like, that

1:02:31is why Nintendo is good at what they do.

1:02:34So something like, in regards to that, me and Federico, we just wrapped up our E3 coverage,

1:02:41and one of our episodes is about Nintendo and what they had to show at E3, and it is

1:02:46not good.

1:02:47do not have a lot coming between now and the end of the year that is really that

1:02:52great I mean they're big they have kind of two games that are on slate between

1:02:56now and the end of the year which is Yoshi's Woolly World which looks like the

1:02:59cutest video game ever made it looks amazing well the Kirby's Epic Yarn was a

1:03:04favorite of both Lauren and Julian they both love that game. Then they are going to love Yoshi's Woolly World.

1:03:11Oh no we'll be getting that on day one. You've got to pre-order that with the Yarn Amiibo

1:03:17that's what you need to do. Huh. We haven't done the amiibo thing. They have

1:03:21made a amiibo out of a yarn Yoshi. It's actually made of yarn. It's the best. I

1:03:29have one on pre-order already. And they also have Super Mario Maker. Oh yeah, I've

1:03:38read about that. Where you make your own, you get to make your own levels. Yep. That

1:03:42is their big game for the rest of the year which is not that is not enough it

1:03:48really isn't enough for the only basically Mario maker kind of looks like

1:03:57a mini game in essence just a game creation game it's not there's not

1:04:04really a lot to it and I think that they're gonna they're gonna struggle the

1:04:08end of this year with the offering that they've got they were supposed to have

1:04:12Oh, they also got Star Fox, but Star Fox I'm not that interested in. They were supposed to have an incredible looking New Zelda game

1:04:17But it's delayed. I'm excited about the Star Fox thing because I like I like those kind of games. I like the the spaceship

1:04:23flying kind of game that yeah, I would have been excited about it and then they showed it. Oh

1:04:30Yeah, that's the problem

1:04:33In theory it's gonna be great because

1:04:37everyone's been waiting for this game for a long time, it looks like it was made for the GameCube.

1:04:43That is sad.

1:04:44Yeah, it's not... it's not good. This is their problem right now.

1:04:49They are... they seem to be not in a very good state with their game... gaming offerings, which is a shame.

1:04:55Well Splatoon, which came out this year, is a winner. That is a legitimately fantastic game.

1:05:02And if somebody, you know, if you have access to a Wii U or somebody who's got it,

1:05:06I cannot recommend it highly enough. It's, yeah, it's just, you could, and you can play

1:05:11it endlessly, endlessly if you want to, because of the different maps and the way that they

1:05:18match up the multiplayer stuff, and it's just, it's just incredibly well done. And as somebody

1:05:22who, you know, spent a lot of time trying to do multiplayer stuff on the original Xbox

1:05:27and deal with just jerks on the internet who are playing games, that's the other nice thing

1:05:31about the way it works is that it's a good online playing experience from Nintendo, which

1:05:36is not—didn't used to be a thing that you could say about anything, ever. But it's good.

1:05:43It's well matched, and you don't have jerks who are, you know, who are messing up your

1:05:48game and, you know, using questionable names and questionable icons. It's all kind of safe

1:05:55and fun, and everybody's having a good time, and I appreciate that a lot.

1:06:00- Yeah, I mean, the more I've played it,

1:06:03the more I'm starting to see the traditional

1:06:06Call of Duty tactics.

1:06:08- Sure.

1:06:09- Jumping a lot and stuff like that,

1:06:11but that's gonna happen.

1:06:12- Yeah, sure.

1:06:13- But one of the great things about it is you can hide.

1:06:18- Yes, you can.

1:06:21You can hide in the ink.

1:06:22- And you can just do your own thing.

1:06:23I mean, you can run around and just paint the environment.

1:06:26You don't have to run into the fray.

1:06:28- Right, well, and you could actually argue that

1:06:30- One of the nice things about it is that I'm not sure strategically if all you're

1:06:36doing is shooting other people. I'm not sure that that's the best strategy in

1:06:40that game. - Right? Because you need to have paint coverage everywhere and if

1:06:44you're busy just kind of like going after the other players you will, you

1:06:47know, paint as you do that but if your whole team is just doing that you're

1:06:51gonna lose because that's not enough. You've got a... because they're gonna go

1:06:55behind you and they're gonna paint more area than you are and, you know, if you're

1:06:59hanging out in the middle you're not gonna get that I like that I mean

1:07:02there's a limit to that you're right it is first-person shooter tactics after a

1:07:05while but you know it's all with paint which I also like it's just you know

1:07:10it's added a little quirkiness and gentleness to it I think it's good what

1:07:15should I what should I look for on the Xbox one since you've got all the

1:07:17consoles there has not been a lot really I mean just in general there have not

1:07:23been a lot of exciting games I'm looking at Ori and the Blind Forest

1:07:27for a journey-like experience, people recommend that.

1:07:30- I've not played that.

1:07:31- Yeah.

1:07:32- But I've heard good things about that game.

1:07:34I mean, this is, depending on how serious you wanna get,

1:07:40the new Batman game, Arkham Knight.

1:07:43- Oh yeah, I've heard about that.

1:07:45- Comes out tomorrow, and Polygon,

1:07:48my website of choice for these things,

1:07:50gave it a 10 out of 10.

1:07:52- Wow.

1:07:52- I have it arriving tomorrow.

1:07:55I am unfortunately then going away for a few days,

1:07:57But I look forward to playing it because that 10 out of 10 is a good score.

1:08:04And that is as good as you can get.

1:08:06And there are not a lot of games that get that and Polygon are very tight with their

1:08:11perfect game scores.

1:08:12So I am excited about playing that game definitely.

1:08:16So I'll let you know that.

1:08:17Arkham Knight could be the first really really big good game of this console generation.

1:08:25towards the end of this year there's going to be a lot more. E3 had a lot of really interesting

1:08:30and exciting things and there's going to be some cool stuff for Xbox. There is a game that you would

1:08:36love... what is it called? I think something... Cup? What is the name? Cuphead.

1:08:47It is hand drawn animation in the style of Steamboat Willie.

1:08:53Wow.

1:08:55It looks just superb.

1:08:58Oh I see, I see.

1:08:59Every frame or every like every animation is hand drawn and they've shown this off at two E3s now

1:09:08and it looks just incredible and apparently is a really really fun game to play as well.

1:09:16Okay. Well I may turn to you in the future for more advice about this because we're gonna start

1:09:22getting into the Xbox One now that it's uh now that we've got that we've got one more console

1:09:26than I'd like but you know the we'll start investing in Xbox One games um not in Xbox 360

1:09:32games anymore and then hopefully the Xbox 360 games that we still want to play will end up

1:09:38cranking through Microsoft's thing that they're doing eventually and we'll at some point be able

1:09:44to kiss the Xbox 360 goodbye and just play on the Xbox One because that's

1:09:49that's always the hurdle for me is you know I don't want to I don't want to add

1:09:53consoles I would prefer to swap in a new console for an old console and I just

1:09:57added one which I'm not thrilled about and I still don't have a ps4 but you

1:10:01know what you're gonna do they'll do that HD remake of journey and then I'll

1:10:05feel the pull of the ps4 yep you right it's gonna happen all right should we

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1:13:02- So our first Ask Upgrade question this week

1:13:06comes from @marcintosh on Twitter, very clever.

1:13:09iOS 9 moves search back to the swipe right

1:13:12on the first home screen versus the iOS 8 swipe down

1:13:14on any home screen.

1:13:16Thoughts?

1:13:17It's both.

1:13:18- Yeah.

1:13:19- Is the answer, which is kind of interesting.

1:13:21I don't know why it's both, but it is both.

1:13:24You can do the search by swiping across to the right

1:13:28or down from the top?

1:13:30- Well, so at least in the iOS 9 beta,

1:13:35which, you know, it's just a first beta at this point,

1:13:39maybe there'll be a second soon,

1:13:40and everything can change.

1:13:43But it looks now like the difference is,

1:13:45if you swipe down, what you get is a search box

1:13:48with your cursor already, you know, insertion point blinking

1:13:51and your keyboard comes up and you can quickly type

1:13:53a search.

1:13:54Whereas if you're moving to that page, that earlier page,

1:13:57What you're getting is the Apple equivalent of Google Now,

1:14:00you're getting the smart, you know,

1:14:02like here's what's going on right now,

1:14:03here are people that you care about,

1:14:05and news that's happening,

1:14:07and you know, context relevant suggestions,

1:14:10and there's a search box and you can start typing.

1:14:12So I think that's,

1:14:14I think that's the reason they have it in two places is,

1:14:17are you just quickly searching for something,

1:14:18or do you wanna see this page

1:14:21that is providing you with information

1:14:23so you never need to type anything?

1:14:25I like it.

1:14:27I think it's a nice idea.

1:14:29I don't mind having that on page zero of the home screen.

1:14:33I think that's probably the best place to put it.

1:14:35So I'm okay that they brought it back

1:14:37given that what's on there is content now

1:14:40and not just a search box.

1:14:43I think the search box,

1:14:44having a search box as page zero

1:14:46is a little bit stranger to me

1:14:47than having a page of stuff

1:14:50that Apple thinks you might wanna see as page zero.

1:14:54- I'm happy with it.

1:14:56actually found a new... sorry, a couple of pieces of news that were... I wanted to

1:15:03know randomly just by going to that page to search for things. See? It's working

1:15:08already. Seriously, like there was... I was going to Foo Fighters concert but it got

1:15:15cancelled because Dave Grohl fell off a stage and broke his leg. Yeah! He kept on

1:15:20playing rock and roll. Exactly, I found out that my concert was cancelled via

1:15:25that service. So sad news for me because I was very very excited about it

1:15:30but you know it gave me the information that I needed to know. At 747 captain

1:15:36asked me what airline did I fly from SFO that had onboard Wi-Fi and it was

1:15:41United. They're on to us Myke. The 747 captains are on to us. United. But it wasn't

1:15:48were you and you were direct going back so yes that's that United I've been on

1:15:52that flight the SFO to Heathrow direct on United mm-hmm yeah and I was very

1:15:58happy about it interesting interesting very happy and now you know what else so

1:16:06we have another question here from Jimmy and Jimmy has asked if we have tried the

1:16:11knock watch app this is knock is an app that allows you to unlock your Mac

1:16:16previously by tapping on your phone screen but now it has a watch app as

1:16:21well to unlock. Have you used this? I have. I think it's a great idea

1:16:27and I think adding the watch app makes it that much greater of an idea. Although,

1:16:33you know, you have to launch the app and wait. But it's a good idea made probably

1:16:38better by native version of it coming with watchOS 2. However, I no longer

1:16:46live... I no longer work in a place where I feel the need to lock my stuff. When I

1:16:52when I was at IDG and I had like budgets and lists of people who we were laying

1:16:57off and stuff like that, I had it locked. You know, I had my computer locked and

1:17:02you know you had to enter in a password every time to get into it. I don't do

1:17:07that here because I'm at home and I'm not concerned about it anymore. If I were

1:17:11still at work I would absolutely get this and use it because I like the

1:17:16convenience of it that it's a you know it's a it's not quite unlocking because

1:17:20it knows that it's you but it's pretty close and I think that's a good idea and

1:17:23I think this is one of those areas where we're gonna see more I feel like I don't

1:17:27know what the details are but I feel like we're gonna see more of this from

1:17:29Apple that this is gonna be one of those areas where Apple pushes this forward is

1:17:33you know more biometric stuff to make things more secure without making them

1:17:39more complicated because that it seems to be to be exactly what Apple is all

1:17:44about. And then we have Kevin do your watches feel warm in the morning after

1:17:52charging overnight? Yes mine does it does feel warm. It always freaks me out a

1:17:56little bit. I haven't noticed that at all. So I don't know maybe maybe my room is

1:18:04cooler than yours and I honestly I don't know. It's always warm when I put it on in the

1:18:10morning. So it doubles the charger doubles as a watch warmer. Or a fire

1:18:16starter depending on how that ends up going. I bought that dock by the way. I

1:18:20think I bought it during the show last week. The elevation dock thing? No the the

1:18:25the one that's on its side that comes on it's side. Yeah that's from Elevation Labs. Oh is that Elevation Lab? Yeah.

1:18:31Yeah the nightstand I did buy that. I haven't gotten it yet but I bought it.

1:18:36Isn't that like the story of Elevation Doc's history?

1:18:40Just I haven't gotten it yet.

1:18:42Yeah, I paid for it, but you know,

1:18:44they said they shipped it, I think.

1:18:45So I guess we'll see.

1:18:48I can track my shipment, but I did,

1:18:52because I like that idea.

1:18:53I don't, my watch is like sliding around.

1:18:55I could have just taped down the charger or something,

1:18:58but I kind of like the idea.

1:19:00It's that, that fits on my little nightstand that I've got.

1:19:02I think having a place to park the watch

1:19:05at the end of the day is a good thing.

1:19:06so I'm looking forward to using that.

1:19:09It's my, it is expected to be delivered today, I'm told.

1:19:15- Oh wow, look at that.

1:19:16Maybe it could arrive during the show, imagine.

1:19:19- Imagine the possibilities, like that iPad Air 2

1:19:22that I bought that arrived during the show last week.

1:19:26- Could have a live audio unboxing.

1:19:28- Yeah, that would be nothing more exciting

1:19:29than opening a box in audio form.

1:19:31Wrestling of cardboard.

1:19:35Kyle's the Gray would like to know,

1:19:36have you ordered a new Kindle yet?

1:19:38(laughing)

1:19:40- So the story here for Kyle Seth Gray,

1:19:43and that's how you say that name,

1:19:44but you're never gonna do it.

1:19:45Kyle's the Gray.

1:19:47- Kyle's the Gray.

1:19:48- Nope, so Kyle asks this because there's a new version

1:19:50of the Paperwhite, which is coming out

1:19:53toward the end of the month.

1:19:54I don't think it's out yet.

1:19:56And it's, so the Paperwhite is not the one

1:19:59that came out last year, the Voyage.

1:20:01They kept the Paperwhite around

1:20:02and they seem to have updated it this time.

1:20:03It's got a higher resolution screen.

1:20:05It's more like the Kindle Voyage screen,

1:20:08although my understanding is the Kindle Voyage screen

1:20:11is still better in some ways,

1:20:13but the two are closer together than they were before.

1:20:16The Voyage is smaller and lighter than the Paperwhite

1:20:20and has these little page turning buttons on the side

1:20:24that you can kind of squeeze and it turns,

1:20:25it vibrates a little and turns the page.

1:20:28And that's, the Voyage is more expensive than the Paperwhite.

1:20:31I haven't ordered it because I have a voyage and a paperweight, and I like them both, and

1:20:36I think my wife basically has received the paperweight from me, and I'm happy to use

1:20:41the Kindle Voyage.

1:20:43If they—I would be intrigued by a new upgrade to their line that added, you know, physical

1:20:50turn buttons instead of the sort of squeeze turn buttons that they've got now, and you

1:20:53can refer to our whole episode that we did with Scott McNulty about the Kindle back in

1:20:57episode—what was it, like eight or something?

1:21:00time ago. But I haven't ordered this because it's just a Paperwhite upgrade and I've already

1:21:05got the Voyage which is better than it. However, I will say this. If you're looking for an

1:21:10e-book reader, if you're looking for a dedicated e-ink reader, which I love because they're

1:21:14great for reading text, they're not distracting because they don't have apps that'll let you

1:21:19flip over and check your email and Twitter and stuff like that, they're simple, they're

1:21:23light, the battery lasts a long time, they're great for reading outside and in, they light

1:21:27themselves now, they've got their own backlighting so you don't have to like

1:21:30strap a book light to them. If you're in the market for something like that,

1:21:35I don't recommend the Voyage because I think it's too expensive for what it is,

1:21:38and especially now, I was already saying you should buy the Paperwhite, but now

1:21:41you should really. I think the Paperwhite is the one to buy.

1:21:44Even though I don't love the fact that you have to tap on the touch screen to

1:21:47turn the pages, the fact that it is a really nice e-ink

1:21:51screen and it's got its own lighting built

1:21:54into it. That's the one that I would recommend because the Amazon's library is fantastic.

1:21:59Apparently there's a—I want to say there's a Nook reader. Is it the Nook reader? There's

1:22:04a—there's a—maybe not—there's another reader out there that actually sounds like

1:22:09it's better than the Kindle in terms of the hardware, but, you know, Amazon's ecosystem

1:22:13is so good at this point that it's very hard for me to recommend another ebook reader other

1:22:18than a Kindle, but there are other readers out there that are—that are good, but I

1:22:24I would recommend the Paperwhite if you're looking for a Kindle, not the Voyage.

1:22:27New Paperwhite looks good in that way.

1:22:30Last question from Nathan.

1:22:32To get Google Now-like functionality, would you be willing to give Apple your data if

1:22:36they didn't sell it to advertisers?

1:22:42Interesting question.

1:22:43I mean, if there's a privacy policy and they say, you know, we're not...

1:22:49I would probably not have a problem, but then I use Google and you use Google.

1:22:53I don't know if you would not have a problem. Is the issue selling it to

1:22:56advertisers? Is it the issue that since it's going to be decrypted on Apple

1:22:59servers it's accessible to the government? I think there are lots of

1:23:03different issues. I'm not not having my information aggregated and sold to

1:23:08advertisers is maybe not my top issue with having the servers be able to scan

1:23:15my data. I would do it. You would do it? Yeah for the same reasons that I give

1:23:22Google my data, like, I would do it. I'd be happy to do it. If it meant I got you

1:23:27genuine utility out of it, then I would be willing to do it, yeah.

1:23:30Yeah, I think I agree. And the issue here is, as Nathan said, what if there's

1:23:38a privacy policy? And Apple says, "Look, we're gonna use this data

1:23:42only to match it up and send it to your devices and all that." That said, I

1:23:45don't think—I think Apple's going to avoid this as much as they can and try to

1:23:48to do as much on their devices as they can and then sync data across the devices, because

1:23:53the devices are in your possession, they have their encryption keys on them, they talk to

1:23:57each other, Apple doesn't see the data other than as encrypted blobs, and I think Apple

1:24:02is trying very hard to build your little personal cloud of devices who can crunch the numbers

1:24:10and associate things together and go out over the internet and talk to each other securely,

1:24:16rather than having that all happen up in the cloud, which is what Google does.

1:24:20And I think they're pretty committed to that concept, the idea that, you know, everything

1:24:23like face recognition for photos right now only happens on photos for Mac, but it does

1:24:27happen there, and the face name matches sync to iCloud.

1:24:32So the Mac does the facial recognition work, but all the devices can do a search for a

1:24:37person's face and see those photos.

1:24:39I think Apple really wants that to be the model here.

1:24:42know at some point they're gonna need to add that facial recognition to iOS too

1:24:46but you know they'll get there I think so I think Apple really doesn't want to

1:24:51have unencrypted or unencrypted data that it can access up in the cloud for

1:24:55lots of different reasons.

1:24:57Okay Jason so before we take a look at our movie for this episode

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1:27:57So today's movie is Say Anything. When was this movie released? Obviously sometime in the 80s.

1:28:04It's 1989, so right at the end of the 80s, directed by Cameron Crowe, who I think became

1:28:15well known first for writing Fast Times at Ridgemont High. He went on to, I think his most

1:28:22famous movie is Jerry Maguire which was nominated for a bazillion Oscars and he

1:28:27also made Singles which was really great and he also made what's it called Almost

1:28:35Famous which is actually a great film too so he's made a bunch of good stuff

1:28:39over the years but this is this is probably my favorite of his films.

1:28:44So why did you pick this movie? Is it a favorite of yours or do you just like it?

1:28:47I don't know it as well as some of the others that I picked but I do love it

1:28:51it's--I wanted to stay with the 80s theme. I had a whole bunch of John Cusack

1:28:55movies on my list of things to recommend to you which I thought was funny. I was

1:28:58looking at it thinking, "Wait a second, I've got a lot of John Cusack on here." I

1:29:02decided not to make you watch High Fidelity because I made Joe and Dan on

1:29:07the Defocused podcast watch High Fidelity recently, also not from the

1:29:1280s but starring John Cusack. I thought about Gross Point Blank, also not from

1:29:16the 80s but starring John Cusack, but I decided to say anything fits with your

1:29:2080s theme. It is a movie from this period that I really like. I think it does some things

1:29:25that are very different from other movies of this genre and type. I think that it's

1:29:30got, I think it's smart and funny and sweet and it does have not only an incredibly famous

1:29:37scene and image in it, but also a memorable quote involving a pen.

1:29:43So, ticking all my boxes basically.

1:29:47Pretty much.

1:29:48So I mentioned before I knew the boombox moment.

1:29:51Yeah.

1:29:52That was one thing.

1:29:53And this is the first time that...

1:29:55You couldn't identify the song though.

1:29:57You couldn't identify the song when you said, "He's holding a boombox and there's probably

1:30:00something playing."

1:30:01Yeah, I know the song now though.

1:30:04Yeah.

1:30:05Though I couldn't tell you the name, but I know it.

1:30:06It's in your eyes, Peter Gabriel.

1:30:08There you go.

1:30:09Love that song.

1:30:10Love that song.

1:30:11used to great effect in his movie.

1:30:13Yes.

1:30:14This was the first movie out of all of the ones that we've done

1:30:17on Myke at the Movies that was available on Netflix.

1:30:20Oh nice.

1:30:21The only one I didn't have to buy.

1:30:23Alright.

1:30:24Or rent.

1:30:25So I'm looking out for you there.

1:30:26I don't think it's on, look on US Netflix, it's not on US Netflix.

1:30:29It's actually not on UK iTunes.

1:30:32That was where I went first.

1:30:33Interesting.

1:30:34It's just not there.

1:30:35But it didn't matter because it's on UK Netflix.

1:30:38Exactly, that was all I needed.

1:30:39Beautiful.

1:30:40So, the movie starts off and it's kind of like you overhear a conversation between some

1:30:47kids, I say kids, like how old are they?

1:30:51They're graduating from high school, so they're all 18, 17, 18, 19.

1:30:55They're all about to graduate from high school in Seattle, Washington.

1:30:58And you hear the words graduation and yearbook.

1:31:01So like the scene is set, you know where you are, you know how old your characters are,

1:31:05you know what time of their life it is, it's that transition period.

1:31:09- I actually think an unusual time to set a high school,

1:31:12you know, this is listed in like Entertainment Weekly

1:31:14did their list of the best high school movies,

1:31:15but it is a funny place to set a movie

1:31:18because it is set in the summer

1:31:20between high school and college.

1:31:22- High school's over.

1:31:23- They are graduating and they have a party

1:31:25and high school is over.

1:31:26Yeah, exactly.

1:31:27That's how the movie starts.

1:31:29- And then there's basically a conversation

1:31:35between John Cusack's character Lloyd

1:31:38and his friends Corey and...

1:31:44what's the other girl's name in the movie?

1:31:47DC? Is that her? Or is it somebody else? I don't know.

1:31:50No. Rebecca? No.

1:31:53This is tough. Maybe. It could be Rebecca.

1:31:55I forget who the other one is. Lily Taylor though is the important,

1:31:59I would say, important character in that.

1:32:01Yeah, she's Corey.

1:32:05basically they're having a conversation and Lloyd is talking about a girl that

1:32:10he likes, Diane, who's played by Help Me. How do you say this first name?

1:32:15Oh, Ione Skye. Ione, Ione, there you go. Ione Skye. So she basically,

1:32:23Junkyu says character Lloyd is in, basically really likes her and wants to

1:32:27ask her out but is worried that Diane doesn't know him and you know his

1:32:33friends Cory and we're saying for now Rebecca or we'll say it's Rebecca saying

1:32:39basically you know you you probably have no chance of her she doesn't know who

1:32:42you are like you know we'd and then they say to him I love this line we don't

1:32:46want to see you get her and he says I want to get her I just really like that

1:32:52and then basically we know that they're then three of them who friends about to

1:32:58head off to their graduation and then we kind of cut to a car scene with John

1:33:04Mahoney the dad didn't know he's in this movie love that guy love that guy

1:33:09because of Fraser yeah yeah yeah just yeah yeah he's yeah it's the dad from

1:33:15Frasier is is a is Diane's dad I only Skye's dad in this and they're basically

1:33:21running through the valedictorian speech that Diane is gonna be giving right and

1:33:28And it's clear that he just, he thinks the world of his daughter and thinks she's gonna

1:33:33go on to do great things and everything.

1:33:35She can do no wrong to him.

1:33:37Yep.

1:33:38And she tells this little joke about going back, like, to college or to high school or

1:33:45whatever.

1:33:46Basically then there's this scene where this obvious jock who everybody loves is singing

1:33:50a song terribly singing "The Greatest Love of All".

1:33:52"The Greatest Love of All", which includes the line "They can't take away my dignity",

1:33:57Which is hilarious because he is, it is the least dignified thing somebody could ever

1:34:02do is sing that song the way he sings it on that stage.

1:34:05It's hilarious.

1:34:06And then Diane gives her speech, which goes down okay, basically.

1:34:10Yeah, it's not a super hit.

1:34:12The line that her father generously laughed at is sort of confusing to people just as,

1:34:17you know, you could have guessed from hearing it.

1:34:19Like that's kind of strange and not, people aren't going to get it and they kind of don't

1:34:24get it.

1:34:25She's a valedictorian. She's not widely beloved and the stuff she does isn't widely praised.

1:34:31It's just not—that's not the slot that she's in.

1:34:35Can I admit at this point that Ione Skye is the person I identify with in this film?

1:34:42Being—because I was second in my class and gave a speech at graduation and always felt—

1:34:48I mean, her isolation from the people in her school,

1:34:51that feels really familiar to me.

1:34:55So I think that's, I always identify with her

1:34:59when I'm watching this.

1:35:00I feel for her.

1:35:01- And when they're in the crowd,

1:35:04like they go to a crowd scene

1:35:05and there's all these whirring video cameras,

1:35:08it's like another thing that I really like

1:35:10because before that, they're talking about dating.

1:35:12At the beginning of dating is calling someone up

1:35:15to get things started, you just call them on the telephone.

1:35:17There's like a scene where Lloyd, his cassette player,

1:35:21is chewing up a tape and I don't know,

1:35:23there was just something about that it was really fun.

1:35:25- Yeah, he's like hitting it 'cause it's distorting the music

1:35:28and you have to hit the tape in the car cassette player, yeah.

1:35:33- And so like this coupled with some other tropes

1:35:36of '80s movies that are happening,

1:35:38like there's lots of musical interstitials,

1:35:41lots of non-diegetic music that's just there.

1:35:43- That's also a Cameron Crowe thing

1:35:46'cause he is an obsessed music nut

1:35:49and actually married one of the lead singers

1:35:52in the band Heart, other than they got divorced later.

1:35:54But he is a, and Singles is like,

1:35:58his movie that he made after this, I think,

1:36:00is basically like, it's practically,

1:36:03the Seattle grunge music scene is as important a character

1:36:08as anyone who's in that film.

1:36:10So he's, music is,

1:36:11Cameron Crowe's really about the music.

1:36:13And so not only is this an 80s movie with lots of music,

1:36:16but it's also kind of Cameron Crowe being really fussy about like the music.

1:36:20It's like he's making a mixtape here in the soundtrack.

1:36:24And it's this sort of stuff that makes me, I really love eighties movies.

1:36:28And I'm happy that we're doing this.

1:36:31I'm realizing how much I love eighties movies going through this,

1:36:35this series with you. There were just things about them,

1:36:38the way they look like the color and like the way that they're shot. I just really,

1:36:43really love this style of filmmaking that was happening at that time.

1:36:46I just really like it. They make me happy for some reason. The next kind of big scene we go to, we start to learn a bit about the father-daughter relationship between Diane and Mr. Court.

1:37:01Yeah.

1:37:02It's James Court, but he's basically Mr. Court.

1:37:05He is. Or Sir, as Lloyd often will call him.

1:37:09Yeah, and he clearly would do anything for his daughter.

1:37:14It's like he gives her a car, he gives her a ring.

1:37:17But it is also in this scene where I realize how beautiful Ione Sky is.

1:37:23Yeah, that is the one thing here that, I mean, she's supposed to be this somewhat dowdy--

1:37:32Although, I don't know, I think you could argue that maybe she was--

1:37:35if you if I think the argument is not like the classic 80s argument that she'd just be beautiful

1:37:41if she put on you know took off her glasses and put on some makeup or something like that she's

1:37:45beautiful she is she is absolutely beautiful in this movie I think the argument is that she's

1:37:50just socially isolated that she's completely over-mothered you know over-parented by her father

1:37:55and she's kind of aloof from everybody she's the brain even you know Lloyd's friends try to talk

1:38:01him out of even talking to her because she's super scary because she's the brain. And we see it from

1:38:06Diane's perspective and she's like totally isolated and sort of okay with it and then

1:38:12ultimately sort of not. But it is funny to have that moment of like, I'm not sure even if she was

1:38:20the brain and had all these other issues and was kind of aloof from everybody socially, I'm not

1:38:25sure I buy that that could have been maintained throughout high school given how attractive I only

1:38:31sky is in this but let's you know it seems less ridiculous than in some other

1:38:36movies where it's an obviously beautiful woman but she's got glasses on and then

1:38:40she takes them off and everybody goes oh my god we didn't notice because that's

1:38:43ridiculous. I see where you're going with that but I think that the party scene

1:38:48which we'll get to in a bit more detail in a minute shows that everybody thinks

1:38:53she's beautiful because everyone wants to talk to her. Well that's true and and

1:38:56it's like she she's never gone to a party she's never been available she's

1:39:00never come off the mountaintop to talk to them and the first thing that happens

1:39:03when they walk in is that is that you know a blonde girl just comes over it's

1:39:08like it's so great I'm so happy you're here let me go introduce you to a lot of

1:39:11cute guys while Lloyd is being accosted and loses track of her for a while so

1:39:16yeah it's true but that that is I was right every time I watch this movie I'm

1:39:20like oh my god I only sky in 1989 all right I don't like to do this stuff too

1:39:27much but she's so beautiful absolutely absolutely one this is one of the things

1:39:37that I really like so this scene it's like this really nice calm move this

1:39:41soft piano music is playing throughout like that is the way that she is being

1:39:45built and then like jump cut to Lloyd kickboxing with heavy metal like this is

1:39:53really like yeah these are very different people mm-hmm and then he's

1:39:57basically he's doing this kickboxing routine to build up the courage to call

1:40:03yes so then he he grabs the phone and he calls the house and gets and he gets on

1:40:11the phone with with Diane's father and basically talking and he's like I'll

1:40:16take a number from you that's how this usually works yeah cuz he's trying to

1:40:20explain and maybe like ask his dad to ask ask her dad to ask her out for him

1:40:25or something and he doesn't know where he's going he's completely at sea here

1:40:29and he's like yeah I'll just give me your number that's how I think giving

1:40:32the impression that this happens a lot because he's like are you the one with

1:40:35the Mustang are you the one with this like right that son like he keeps asking

1:40:39and it's like this is how this usually works yeah yeah that's true also you

1:40:44left out the we see Lloyd's life Lloyd's parents Lord's dad's in the army his

1:40:49parents are absent. They're in Germany and he's living with his sister, played

1:40:54by John Cusack's sister, Joan Cusack, and her son. And so she's her son's

1:41:02father has has run off and she yells at him at one point for being his playmate,

1:41:07the son's playmate, instead of his uncle, which seems kind of mean to me and to

1:41:12Lloyd too. And then he goes into the bathroom with the phone and calls to

1:41:17try to set up this date with Diane, who essentially never met him.

1:41:21Is it before this point or after this point that Diane finds out about the Reed Fellowship?

1:41:32I think it's after, because I think that happens after that she's at the nursing home and her

1:41:39dad comes to tell her that she's won a fellowship and she's going to be going to England. What

1:41:45an exotic place, England. Yeah, obviously. Because he then says before,

1:41:53because basically there's a telephone call after Lloyd puts down the phone and it's to

1:41:57tell you that she's got this refile, she's going to England. But there's this one other

1:42:00line that I really love where as the conversation is wrapping up between Lloyd and Mr. Cault,

1:42:06he says, Lloyd says, "She's pretty great, isn't she?" And then Mr. Cault says, "Yes,

1:42:12is. Good luck, kid." I liked it because it was kind of just like, "She is great. You

1:42:18sound like a nice guy. Good luck." I kind of liked that. That was how I took it anyway.

1:42:23I think it's a cool dynamic, too, that we've seen that John Mahoney thinks the world of

1:42:27her, and we know that Lloyd thinks the world of her. And this is kind of what one of the

1:42:32main conflicts in the movie is about, is these two guys who think the world of Diane. And

1:42:40kind of in opposition because the father has his issues and doesn't want to let her go and has

1:42:44judgment about Lloyd, but this is the one thing that they can absolutely agree on is she's pretty

1:42:49great. And it's a funny moment where if you're the proud parent of this girl and a boy calls to ask

1:42:55her out and tells you she's great, what are you going to say? It's like, yeah, she is. I agree.

1:43:01- Like at this point in the movie and so much later, they are not in opposition.

1:43:05- Yeah, that's right.

1:43:07They're very much like on par with each other and have respect for each other.

1:43:13That's true, that's true. They ultimately end up, it ends up being problematic, but

1:43:17it's true. They admire Diane and Lloyd proves his trustworthiness, I would say. And he truly,

1:43:27you know, truly, he's not lying when he says she's pretty great. He really is taking care

1:43:32of her and that he'll take care of her and she'll be back safely and all that from the

1:43:35the all-night graduation party. He's absolutely proven trustworthy about that.

1:43:39So then they find out that she's won the Reed fellowship. I like where he's saying

1:43:45to like you know where Mr. Kort's saying to Diane, "You need to admit your special.

1:43:52Tell me your special." And he says about the pyramid, "Everyone starts down the

1:43:56bottom and you've reached right to the top." I just liked all of that kind of

1:44:00stuff and you because it's more like laying the groundwork of how much he

1:44:03loves her. Then later Diane returns Lloyd's call and he's basically

1:44:12trying to convince her to go on a date with him. Like she's like "I'm very busy"

1:44:16and he's like "Are you busy this day?" She immediately says "I'm busy" like

1:44:20forever "I'm busy" and he will not take no for an answer. It's kind of adorable.

1:44:25"Are you monumentally busy?" I like that. And then she ends up agreeing to go to the

1:44:34party with him after she says that she's going to England. And he says, "Oh, I went to England

1:44:39for three months." I think this is what probably intrigues her. And he's like, "I could give

1:44:42you tips, many tips, English tips, or no tips of any kind."

1:44:46That's right. And then he kind of oversells it where she sort of agrees and he's still

1:44:50trying to sell it and then he's like, "All right, okay. All right." Yeah, it's adorable.

1:44:57This is vintage John Cusack. Lloyd is so committed here and so genuine.

1:45:05So then he goes to pick her up and there's a nice exchange. He's very kind and respectful

1:45:13to Mr. Caulk, calling him "sir" and saying that he'll have a home away and saying I could

1:45:17do kickboxing so I can take care of her and really lay it on. And then they take

1:45:22it they go to the party and that's where like you know everybody goes up to

1:45:26Diane and everyone's really surprised that she's there with Lloyd. Then Lloyd

1:45:30gets given the opportunity of that sorry the opportunity the job of keymaster

1:45:35where he effectively will not drink for the evening and must decide who can take

1:45:39their keys at the end of the night so they can drive. This is a very

1:45:4280s phenomenon. This is the mothers against drunk drivers, take people's keys, designated

1:45:49driver thing. This was really emerging in, I believe at one point they show a, there's

1:45:54an 88 written on the toilet seat. So I think this is supposed to essentially be my high

1:45:58school class that I'm watching here. And this definitely was part of the culture was whether

1:46:04this really happened a lot, I think is arguable, but this was very, a very 80s thing of like,

1:46:10we're gonna have somebody watching.

1:46:13After my high school graduation,

1:46:14there was a big overnight party at somebody's house

1:46:16and the whole idea was that you went out there

1:46:18and you stayed there all night and they took your keys away

1:46:22and that absolutely did happen.

1:46:25So it's funny to see that here.

1:46:27That is a real thing, very '80s.

1:46:30- Something that I do not understand,

1:46:32the career counselor arrives at the party,

1:46:35(laughing)

1:46:37tells Lloyd that he needs to kind of sort his life out and needs to go to

1:46:41junior college pick something decide what he wants to

1:46:44do with his life but then she joins the party she gives him her keys and goes to

1:46:48the party and i don't understand how old is she meant to be

1:46:51well BB Newworth is playing that part more

1:46:54more members of the Frasier extended family right that she was Frasier's

1:46:59ex-wife um and um and said in Seattle too man it's

1:47:05It's all connected to Frasier, isn't it?

1:47:06So she, I feel like, you know,

1:47:11I always read that as just being that she was,

1:47:12she was one of those high school teachers/counselors

1:47:17who was perhaps overly friendly with the students.

1:47:19That's really what I got.

1:47:20Like- - Oh, she hits him as well.

1:47:22- Yeah, inappropriately friendly with the students

1:47:26and maybe trying to relive her own high school years

1:47:30when she should not be.

1:47:31And that's just sort of how I read that is,

1:47:33That's, you know, she's in,

1:47:35Mrs. Evans is a bit inappropriate.

1:47:38- Yep.

1:47:39So the first day is done.

1:47:40They're basically, they spend the time together.

1:47:44He's being very nice looking out for her.

1:47:46Then they drive this kid off.

1:47:48- They drop a guy off who doesn't know where he lives.

1:47:50- Nope, and they're driving all morning

1:47:51and they're very, very nice.

1:47:54He's very gentlemanly.

1:47:56They're walking around, they're talking and it's good.

1:47:58And at this point, like I realized

1:48:00how happy this movie is making me.

1:48:03I'm watching it and I just feel really good. I love these type of love stories.

1:48:08These very simple, like, young love love stories.

1:48:12Um...

1:48:13And...

1:48:14This part actually reminds me a little bit of, um, of, uh, Before Sunrise.

1:48:18Have you seen that?

1:48:19I have not seen that.

1:48:20Oh, Myke. Okay, anyway, we'll move on then.

1:48:22When was that? When was that released?

1:48:26Uh, Before Sunrise 1995.

1:48:27Uh, too late. Too late.

1:48:29That's... It's too late for the 80s, it doesn't count.

1:48:31that's Ethan Hawke, Julie Delpy, it's good.

1:48:34But I know something's gonna happen and and I assume at this point that

1:48:41her father will get upset. There has to be a complication right?

1:48:45Otherwise what's the drama here? It's just a nice pleasant

1:48:48like a warm blanket.

1:48:51And then I don't actually have a lot of notes between here and

1:48:55way later in the movie which shows how much I was enjoying this

1:48:59because sometimes when I have no notes it's because nothing's happening but I was just like

1:49:03et up in the movie so basically some of this because I this is a really long time I've just

1:49:08looked the next note I have is sad breakup so it's when they break up and she gives in the pen

1:49:13oh so I've got I've got a long time here so there's stuff some stuff that happens that I

1:49:18can remember they have a family meal which is when it all starts to unravel a little bit

1:49:23yep because um Mr Court asks Lloyd when what's to do for a living and he says he wants to be

1:49:28be a kickboxer and that's the kind of...

1:49:31Kickboxing, sport of the future.

1:49:32Yeah, so at that point he's like, "No, this isn't good."

1:49:35And then the IRS show up and they're investigating Mr. Kort.

1:49:39Yes, I think this is one of the things that I love about this movie is it is such a strange

1:49:45and surprising turn for a movie like this.

1:49:48The complication in the romantic comedy is that one of the partners in the romance, her

1:49:55father is being investigated by the FBI or by the IRS. How strange is that? Suddenly

1:50:01like criminal investigation to ratchet up the familial tension? It's just, it's just

1:50:06odd. It comes kind of out of left field and you're like, oh, you know, interesting and

1:50:10puts him in a whole different light. And not in a way like he isn't truly devoted to his

1:50:16daughter and not in a way, it doesn't undermine like, I feel like a modern movie might undermine

1:50:20this in a totally different way where there's a, you know, he doesn't really love her or

1:50:24whatever, and it's like, that's not true. It's just that other parts of his life are

1:50:28kind of shady and questionable and it introduces doubt in their relationship, which is kind

1:50:36of interesting, but it's totally out of left field. It's like, what? The IRS is knocking

1:50:40on the door?

1:50:41Yeah. And then, you know, things continue to go along. They're having great dates. They're

1:50:45really getting to know each other very well. They're becoming very close. She kind of,

1:50:51Like Diane kind of goes back and forth a little bit and try and not want it to get too heavy

1:50:54because she has quite a—she feels the fact that she's—her and her dad are very close,

1:51:00like friends.

1:51:01They are friends.

1:51:02Mm-hmm.

1:51:03They are.

1:51:04Well, they're all each other has.

1:51:05That's been up to now.

1:51:06The mother divorced the father and moved away and made Diane choose, and Diane chose her

1:51:11dad.

1:51:12And since then, they are—and we know how removed she's been from high school society.

1:51:16So essentially, they are each other's world.

1:51:20And that is the way that Lloyd is threatening that,

1:51:24by coming in here.

1:51:25But it's huge.

1:51:27They are their best pals.

1:51:30- Yep.

1:51:31And then things kind of move along and she's--

1:51:36- Teaches her to drive a stick shift.

1:51:39- Yep, which is when things kind of turn up for the better.

1:51:42'Cause she's like, "Can we just be friends?"

1:51:44like she's worried that she's leaving and she's not gonna see her dad and that

1:51:48concerns her as well.

1:51:49I like that her dad has a job I mean it turns out that that's

1:51:53ultimately important to the plot but we see we see him and her and even Lloyd at

1:51:58the at the nursing home a lot.

1:52:01Yep.

1:52:01Which you know in so many of these films if the

1:52:03present if the parents are present it's also unclear if the parents even have

1:52:06jobs because they're always like they're around for things and here it seems

1:52:09nursing home right it seems realistic right that they would be they would

1:52:13spend time around the nursing home he shows her how to drive in the big circle

1:52:15in front of the nursing home because it's part of her life that's you know

1:52:19that's all part of part of their lives. So then they go out one evening they

1:52:28sleep together where they she points out a song to him because he's kind of like

1:52:34it's a nice it's a nice moment where like Lloyd is like shivering and she's

1:52:39like what's the matter you called is like I'm just happy and then she points

1:52:42out in your eyes it's on the radio she's like just listen to the song I like this

1:52:46song and then the one of the reasons is this movie it well the reason this movie

1:52:52is called say anything is because that is a agreement between Diane and her

1:52:57father they can say anything to each other and so she tells him that they

1:53:01slept together and he takes it pretty well like it doesn't go crazy like you

1:53:06see many of these movies like you think maybe that's gonna be the turning point

1:53:09but it isn't. He's not happy that she's out all night.

1:53:12Yes, that he did like. As no parent would be, right? Because they seem to have this agreement of

1:53:17"I don't mind as long as you call" and she didn't call.

1:53:20Right. So that, you know. This is funny, I, without giving too much detail, my,

1:53:25I will say, I have a family member who had this agreement with their parent,

1:53:35an extended family member and it went about as well as it does in this movie. Well, I think it

1:53:42didn't go quite as well as in this movie, but it's the same thing. It's like you can say anything to

1:53:45me, we'll talk about it, and then you know the first time that this person said, "Oh well, you

1:53:51know, I had sex at 15 or whatever." It was sort of like, okay, the parent can't do that anymore.

1:54:00Anything but that.

1:54:02Yeah, it's just like it's great that you're a cool parent who can be the confidant, but at some point, you know

1:54:08You may need to be a parent and so it's hard don't promise not to be a parent because you may need to be a parent

1:54:13At some point you may not be able to help yourself

1:54:15but

1:54:16Yeah, it's it's a fascinating relationship that they have those two characters

1:54:20but mr. Court starts to get jealous at this point because he's not seeing any of Diane and

1:54:26She's leaving and that he doesn't like that. So he starts to

1:54:30to he starts to drive a wedge in, but he admits to knowing why he's doing like he has this

1:54:37like conflict of he wants her to be happy and he says he realizes he's being jealous

1:54:41but he still wants to see her and he's concerned about the IRS thing all that sort of stuff.

1:54:47So it leads to there being a breakup and for some reason like he said like Diane Diane

1:54:53like her dad gives her a pen to give him give Lloyd this pen. I don't even understand what

1:55:00what that was meant to signify but um I think it's just it's the cluelessness of of the dad

1:55:07that yeah he's just you know he he doesn't understand how this stuff works and he's living

1:55:12in a totally different world and he you know yeah it's bizarre it's really bizarre so then there is

1:55:19a very very sad breakup lots of tears and lots of driving walking in the rain uh Seattle you know

1:55:27And then Lloyd says, "I gave her my heart and she gave me a pen."

1:55:31Yep. Which is probably the line you were referring to. Yes, indeed.

1:55:34"I gave her my heart, she gave me a pen." And there's, you know, I really like that

1:55:40this movie revels in the teen anguish and like

1:55:45really like amps up the melodrama because that is how these things

1:55:49are when you're that age. Yes, yeah, it feels like the end of the world.

1:55:53And it's displayed as that in the-- and it's very--

1:55:56I think it's very nicely done because it's a lot of like, crying in the rain is a very cliche thing,

1:56:03but it works if you do it and you're aware of why you're doing it. I felt that, I quite liked that,

1:56:08it worked well for me. Then Lloyd is like driving around talking into a cassette tape, like a cassette

1:56:15recorder, and it seems like he is recording these for Corey? You never really understand that, but

1:56:22understanding is like they're best friends one of the things that they do

1:56:26is record tapes to each other instead of writing to each other and he says about how he thinks

1:56:33maybe you should hang out with some guys and he tries to do that like hang out

1:56:36with these group of guys and they're all just ridiculous and yeah including Joe

1:56:40who Corey has broken up with a million times and was the guy who was singing

1:56:44the song and she's on her and exactly Joe lies Joe lies yep and basically like

1:56:51you know they're all saying "oh we can get you girls" that kind of thing and he

1:56:54says "if you guys know so much about women why are you here at the gas and sip

1:56:59with no women anywhere?"

1:57:01Yeah this feels like this is practically what all of High

1:57:05Fidelity is. Is this. This is like a scene that is replayed as the entire film High

1:57:11Fidelity 15 years later. 10, 11 years later something like that.

1:57:16And he realizes that it was a mistake for him to even try and do that.

1:57:19Yeah. Damn, this has been a terrible mistake.

1:57:23Oh, Jeremy Piven in that scene too.

1:57:25Young Jeremy Piven is his pal at the party

1:57:29and then he comes back here and they've worked together

1:57:32in A Million Things too. They're both from Chicago.

1:57:34So, a little trivia.

1:57:36It's the guy from Nontaraj, right?

1:57:38Yep.

1:57:39Okay.

1:57:41So then it's kind of like a lot of scenes

1:57:44of Lloyd trying to forget,

1:57:47And he says at one point, I draw the line at 700 and return phone calls.

1:57:52And like, Corey's telling him to give it another go.

1:57:55And then I like this line that she says to him.

1:57:58You know, he's like, you know, maybe I just need to be a guy about this, you know,

1:58:00just like forget about it and find someone else.

1:58:02And she's like, you're not a guy, be a man.

1:58:04>> Mm.

1:58:06>> Then you kind of start to see things, like, you start to realize at this point

1:58:14that things are falling apart for Mr. Court.

1:58:16yeah he tries to buy something with a credit card and it's rejected and they

1:58:20have to like take it away. He hides in the bathtub. Yep and at that point you

1:58:26realize something is going on here but you at this point it's the IRS stuff is

1:58:31very much in the background from when it happens to like he just briefly mentions

1:58:36it that's all but it is apparent that he either has no money which is what I

1:58:44thought they'd gone bankrupt or that he you know they're shutting him down which

1:58:49is actually what's happening then we had the boom box scene so in an attempt to

1:58:53try and woo it's his gesture Lloyd's gesture he is standing outside of his

1:58:58car with a boom box above his head playing in your eyes the song from

1:59:02earlier in the movie but nothing happens Diane does not react to it then next

1:59:08scene, Diane is going to visit an IRS officer who explains to Diane after some prodding

1:59:15that it turns out that Mr. Court has been stealing money from dead people.

1:59:18Yeah. He's been taking inheritances and claiming

1:59:21people are still alive and that kind of thing. Then she starts to doubt her dad, searches

1:59:26the house, and finds a chest of cash. I like, um, so Philip Baker Hall is the IRS

1:59:32guy here. I think this is a cool performance because he's like, he understands the implications.

1:59:38of this, right? That this is this young person who's very, by all accounts, very talented, and

1:59:44she loves her father, and they've all that they've got, and he's trying to break it to her.

1:59:48You know, he's doing his job, but he's kind of breaking it to her gently. Like,

1:59:51I think it's an interesting scene where he's trying to explain to her, you know,

1:59:57really this has happened. And I know you think the world of your father, but really.

2:00:01And she doesn't want to believe it, but he's trying to, like, I don't know, he's trying to

2:00:04to give it to her straight. It's an interesting scene where he's trying to explain, "What

2:00:10do you think is going to happen?" She's going to be mad at him and all that, but he's trying

2:00:12to explain it to her. It's very interesting. And then she has to go and see it for herself.

2:00:16I also think this twist is interesting in that, you know, you could argue that what

2:00:20he did was honorable in the sense that he's like, you know, they didn't have anybody and,

2:00:25you know, what was I going to do with the money? But it's, you know, it's totally justifiable

2:00:31by him but totally not acceptable in any way. And I think that's interesting too. I think

2:00:35that's how a lot of these crimes get committed is somebody convinces themselves that what

2:00:39they're doing is actually not bad and then they get caught. And so she finds the money.

2:00:45He's got that expensive jukebox that they've had in the house all this time. Suspicion.

2:00:51And the ring and oh, the suspicion.

2:00:53David: And then she finds the box of cash and she goes to confront him. She makes him

2:00:57swear to God and he does but then she's like I found the money you lied to me

2:01:01yeah and then she runs away she runs to Lloyd who's doing some kickboxing

2:01:07training some sparring she walks in and then he gets kicked in the face and his

2:01:11nose is all bloody that kind of thing yeah and basically it starts basically

2:01:19it transpires that she says that she needs him and they're together and then

2:01:23Mr. Court gets put in prison for nine months and fined $125,000 and it goes to

2:01:32the scene kind of this is the final scene in the movie where it shows Lloyd's

2:01:36car outside the prison and Diane's in the car and Lloyd is in the is in the

2:01:42prison talking to Mr. Court and explains you know saying that she doesn't want to

2:01:48see you that kind of thing and then then Mr. Court goes crazy calls yeah says

2:01:52like why is she championing mediocrity because he says he's going to England

2:01:56with her and Mr. Court doesn't like this because he's gonna be a distraction.

2:02:01But Lloyd, to his credit, tries to remain to be nice to her like gives a letter and

2:02:06says there's a version of the letter that I've seen which is not the one that

2:02:09he's got which where Diane says something along the lines of "I can't help but love

2:02:13you" or something like that and so he's trying to be nice still to Mr. Court

2:02:18even though Mr. Court is being very mean to Lloyd.

2:02:23And then Diane arrives just as visiting time is ending

2:02:26and kind of hugs her father and that kind of thing

2:02:29and then gives him a pen.

2:02:31-Yeah. -And says, like, you know, to write.

2:02:34-Yeah, the guards are gonna totally take that pen away.

2:02:37-Yep. Of course.

2:02:38Just stab someone with it, but, you know, symbolism.

2:02:41I don't know how she even got it in.

2:02:42-I don't know. It's low security.

2:02:44It's the IRS prison. It's low, low, low security.

2:02:48They're on a plane together.

2:02:49And Diane is at Riviera and the movie is scared of flying

2:02:52and they have this really nice scene

2:02:53where Lloyd's trying to calm her down

2:02:56and saying as soon as the smoking light comes on, hilarious.

2:02:59- Yeah.

2:03:00- We'll be, you know, everything's fine

2:03:02because 90% of all problems happen

2:03:04within the first five minutes

2:03:05and it's going along, going along, going along.

2:03:07They're looking up, looking up.

2:03:08It goes bing and the credits roll.

2:03:10- Yep.

2:03:12- Jason Snow, I love this movie so much.

2:03:14I love this movie so so much. It's easily my favorite of all of the movies that we have seen.

2:03:21Wow. Wow.

2:03:23This movie is so much about what I love in movies.

2:03:28Like it is a ride that does not send you through many hoops.

2:03:34The love interests, they don't do anything bad to each other.

2:03:40That is a real thing that I don't like in romantic comedies

2:03:44or movies with love interests,

2:03:46that there is the point where one of them does something

2:03:48and upsets the other.

2:03:49That doesn't happen in this movie.

2:03:51They are true to each other.

2:03:52And that's one of the things that I really love about it

2:03:56because their love is, you know, it's meaningful.

2:04:00- Well, even when she breaks up with him,

2:04:02she's not breaking up with him

2:04:05because she doesn't care about him.

2:04:06She's got all these sort of external forces

2:04:08and she feels like this is what she needs to do.

2:04:10And she clearly regrets it immediately.

2:04:14Yeah, she's listening to his messages

2:04:16and she so wants to pick up the phone and answer,

2:04:19but she feels like she can't.

2:04:21- So I don't have a bad thing to say about this movie.

2:04:24- Wow, it's a good movie.

2:04:28You should check out,

2:04:30well, you should check out "Single" sometime.

2:04:32It's from the 90s, so it can't be for Myke watches

2:04:33the movies, but I like that movie.

2:04:36That's a, like I said, it's also sort of the story of,

2:04:40it is shot in Seattle in the early '90s.

2:04:44It is as, it's practically a documentary about grunge

2:04:47happening in the background

2:04:49(laughs)

2:04:50while the movie is happening in the foreground.

2:04:52But Cameron Crowe, very music-oriented.

2:04:55This is, yeah, I love, I do, I love this movie.

2:04:57This is a great example of a, you know,

2:05:02'80s romantic comedy.

2:05:05The characters are so memorable.

2:05:09They're not like off of the assembly line at all.

2:05:12They've got their own quirks,

2:05:13but they don't come across as being kind of like

2:05:15showy quirky, they're quirky, they are,

2:05:17but they feel lived in.

2:05:20And like I said, I love the idea

2:05:24of being between high school and college

2:05:26and just sort of like dangling

2:05:28and not knowing where you're going in your life.

2:05:30And that's a very interesting point

2:05:32when she's going off to this fellowship,

2:05:34He doesn't know what he's going to do,

2:05:36if he's going to join the army or whatever.

2:05:38And they've got this summer together

2:05:40where all of these things happen.

2:05:42And you know, I don't think you see a lot of films

2:05:45set in that period either.

2:05:46And it's a really ripe period for that.

2:05:48- So there's a movie that this reminds me of

2:05:51that I really love called Nick and Laura's Infinite Playlist.

2:05:55- Oh, I've heard about that. I haven't seen it.

2:05:56- It's one of my favorite movies.

2:05:58It is very music-focused.

2:06:00It has John...

2:06:04No, Sarah, Michael Cera, that's it.

2:06:07- Michael Cera, right.

2:06:09- And Kat Dennings.

2:06:11- Yeah, yeah.

2:06:13- It's a great movie, it's set over one night,

2:06:15it's very, very focused on music,

2:06:17and it is just this love story

2:06:18that blossoms over one evening.

2:06:21It's really fantastic, but yeah, I love this movie.

2:06:24I really love this movie.

2:06:26- If that is one of your favorite movies,

2:06:28you really do need to watch Before Sunrise.

2:06:31- Okay.

2:06:32that's that is also what happens is Ethan Hawke and who's American and Julie

2:06:37Delpy whose French meet in Vienna and they've got an overnight before they're

2:06:40they have to get their trains in the morning and they spend the night walking

2:06:44around the city and basically fall in love in that night and he's got to go

2:06:47off and back to his life and his girlfriend or whatever and it's but it's

2:06:51and it's just what happens in that night and it's a that's a classic - yeah that

2:06:56sounds like my kind of movie that's that's your that's up your alley but I'm

2:06:58glad you like this this is um yeah this is uh I really like John Cusack he's

2:07:05been in any number of movies that I that I love and like I said I think Cameron

2:07:11Crowe is really interesting and has made a bunch of really interesting movies and

2:07:14I'm surprised Ione Skye didn't become a bigger star every time I watch this I

2:07:19think she should have been a huge star and she wasn't you know she wasn't so

2:07:25beautiful Jason yeah it's true it's true I had that I had that moment in oh what

2:07:30was it I can't remember now I saw I saw some other movie from the 80s not too

2:07:36long ago and I and I thought I think it was one of ours because I remember you

2:07:39having this similar reaction about somebody else yeah and just feeling like

2:07:43this feels this feels inappropriate and yet you know but this and it's the other

2:07:47thing that's interesting but Diane is Diane is not at any point played as you

2:07:53know super sexy that's not the point and I kind of I kind of really like that

2:07:58that they don't put her in they don't put her in in you know scant scantily

2:08:02she's not scantily clad at any point she's but she's beautiful and she's

2:08:07dressed like a normal person and she wears her party dress at that one point

2:08:11and she's you know absolutely glowing at that point but yeah it's a you can see

2:08:16why you know this is why we go to the movies we see two interesting attractive

2:08:20people and they're in love and what's gonna happen and I mean that's all in

2:08:24Say Anything. Plus yes we get the the pen scene and we get that the boombox scene

2:08:29which has gone down in history as a classic scene and it's funny the way you

2:08:34people remember it is not necessarily how it actually works in the in the

2:08:38movie because he's he does that and she she sort of wakes up but doesn't react.

2:08:42He calls her from the payphone in the rain you know but it's it's not it

2:08:48It doesn't go the way I think people think that it goes.

2:08:53So that's it.

2:08:54Thank you for another great movie.

2:08:55That is it for this week's episode.

2:08:56If you want to find our show notes, they're over at relay.fm/upgrade/42.

2:09:03And we have just a moment to thank our friends again over at Smile, Casper, MailRoute, and

2:09:08Squarespace for helping us out with this week's episode.

2:09:11If you want to catch us online, you can find Jason's work over at sixcolors.com and he

2:09:15is @jsnell and I am @imyke and we'll be back next time. Until then, say goodbye Mr. Snell.

2:09:26Goodbye Imyke.

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