0:00:00From Relay FM, this is Upgrade episode 33.
0:00:15Upgrade this week is brought to you by three lovely sponsors, Igloo, an internet you'll
0:00:19actually like, MailRoute, a secure, hosted email service for protection from viruses
0:00:24and spam, and GoToMeeting, the best tool to meet from anywhere without travel expenses
0:00:29or hassle of traffic. I'm Jason I'm not Myke. What? Oh my god. What happened to
0:00:35your accent? Myke, Myke you've been in America too long. Four days you've gotten
0:00:38you've gotten a totally different accent. Yeah so I'm Steven. Hi Jason. Hi. So Myke
0:00:45is in, Myke is in America he's not with me but he's also not with you. Yeah that
0:00:50makes me sad. This is very it's a very confusing time in the relay universe. I
0:00:55don't know much about comic books but I think at some point comic books there's
0:00:58multiple universes and that's kind of how relay feels like the last two weeks
0:01:01yeah yeah this is we were what is it the the flophouse and a bunch of other shows
0:01:10that are on that maximum fun network they were talking about how they want to
0:01:13do a they want to do a fun drive thing that is the crossover week where they
0:01:19switch all the hosts around and I figure we just did that by accident on relay
0:01:23All the hosts are on different shows and because Myke was traveling
0:01:26In in he had his vacation and he went to Ireland and now he's in Atlanta
0:01:31And so we've had guest hosts and you've been popping up everywhere you were on with Casey now
0:01:35You're on with me and I know people are feeling like unsettled out there. I think
0:01:40Starting next week. Everything will be back to normal. I think so. This is the I think actually today
0:01:45I think today's the last day cuz Myke flies home
0:01:47Those listeners of clockwise will find that I'm not gonna be on clockwise this week
0:01:52But after that, Dan and I will be back together too.
0:01:54So soon.
0:01:55So soon.
0:01:56I know.
0:01:57I know.
0:01:58I have John Siracusa's yard crew outside my house.
0:02:00Mm-hmm.
0:02:01Outside my neighbor's house.
0:02:02Like a lawnmower, like a blower.
0:02:04Yeah, he's on a leaf blower right now.
0:02:06That is classic hypercritical, by the way.
0:02:09That is a old-school hypercritical, the John Siracusa complaining about the lawn guy.
0:02:14It is.
0:02:15So I have studio space in town that I use.
0:02:16I actually share it with my brother.
0:02:18And I was going to go there today to record,
0:02:21but I drove like eight hours yesterday from Atlanta,
0:02:24and I was like, well, I'm going to sleep late,
0:02:26I'll just wake up, my family, they're all out today.
0:02:29I was like, I'll record at home.
0:02:30What could go on in my neighborhood?
0:02:31I'm never home at 10 o'clock on a Monday, right?
0:02:33I'm at work.
0:02:34What could happen in my neighborhood
0:02:36at 10 o'clock on a Monday?
0:02:37And apparently, all of the yard work.
0:02:39- The yard guy.
0:02:40- The yard guy's here.
0:02:41What can we do?
0:02:42- Yeah, I don't know.
0:02:43I see those people when I'm walking my kids to school,
0:02:46when I'm walking my son to school in the morning.
0:02:48I see the yard guys out because they get out early and do that.
0:02:51That's funny for me because we don't have a yard guy.
0:02:54I'm the yard guy.
0:02:55Yeah, same with me.
0:02:56I'm the only guy on the street who's mowing his own grass still.
0:02:59I should change that.
0:03:01Yeah.
0:03:02Well, it's not going to be a problem for me because all my grass is going to die because
0:03:06we're not going to water anymore.
0:03:07Oh, yeah.
0:03:08You all don't have water anymore in California.
0:03:09That's right.
0:03:10So why?
0:03:11Who needs?
0:03:12That seems bad.
0:03:13I could mail you a jar of Mississippi River water once a week.
0:03:15Did you see that William Shatner wants to do a Kickstarter for like a billion dollars?
0:03:18I think he doesn't know how Kickstarter works. To build a pipeline, a water pipeline to California.
0:03:24Also, on one level I think it's like that's kind of brilliant, right? Because there are
0:03:27other places where there's lots of water, but not here. But for that I think they could
0:03:30just build like desal plants. But does that actually fix the problem? Like,
0:03:34where's the water coming from? Will those people be thirsty? Because you've taken all
0:03:37their water? Well, I mean, that's, look at the Colorado
0:03:38River. There isn't anything left of it because we drained it all. It's like you stick the
0:03:43straw in it, and then you just keep sucking until it's dry.
0:03:45Is that how they do it? It's a giant bindi straw into California. Interesting. You basically
0:03:51live in a foreign country to me. It's very strange.
0:03:53It is. Well, we joke about this because people don't know this. This is the first segment.
0:03:58This is before follow-up. This is random talk. In the relay Slack chat, I've taken upon myself
0:04:05to educate Casey about California facts because it turns out Casey knows nothing about California,
0:04:10literally nothing. I superimposed a map of California on a map of the East Coast once
0:04:15and said, "Casey, this is how big California is." And he was like, "Wow, that's really
0:04:18big!" I'm like, "Yes, it's really big." And he was like, "Where is Yosemite?" Because
0:04:23I'm going to Yosemite today. In relation to the Bay Area, because I don't know, and I
0:04:26did a little, I used napkin, I think, and I drew little circles and arrows. I'm like,
0:04:31"This is LA, this is San Francisco, this is where the cows are in between, and over here
0:04:36is where Yosemite is, which is where I'm from, up in the, where the trees are.
0:04:40Oh, so your sidebar is translucent already.
0:04:43Yeah, I was, it was born translucent.
0:04:46Wow.
0:04:47You should change that setting so your computer looks like a Mac again.
0:04:50I'm not angry about Yosemite.
0:04:51No.
0:04:52We should do some follow-up/out.
0:04:56We should.
0:04:57Follow-up/out.
0:04:58We should.
0:04:59We don't have sound effects on this show.
0:05:01That was a...
0:05:02Yeah, I don't either anymore.
0:05:03That was, yeah, I know.
0:05:04was a particularly prompt related thing. I kind of missed the sound effects, but Myke
0:05:08took them away. Well, he says follow up now and I think follow up. But yeah, he can't
0:05:16not do that. Actually, the follow out is connected. Oh, I wanted to mention episode 35 of connected,
0:05:24which I was on. And so people who like to listen to me talk and to you talk. Yes, but
0:05:31not to Federico because he said very little in that episode because it was about photos
0:05:35for Mac that I talked about, and the Mac does not interest Federico. The Mac is a device
0:05:39used to talk on Skype.
0:05:41- Yes.
0:05:42- And nothing else. But they should check that out if they want to hear me talk about
0:05:47photos a lot. There are a couple things that made me very sad. There are a couple things
0:05:50in there that I said that were wrong. I said that there was no brush tool at all, and there
0:05:53is a little, you know, the spot healing kind of thing is there, but that's it. There's
0:05:58other kind of, you can't brush on adjustments or anything like that. So, you know, people,
0:06:03the Truth Squad was out and bless them for that. But Photos for Mac is fascinating. I
0:06:11keep working on that book and discovering weird things that it does and then lots of
0:06:15things that it just doesn't do. And I think, you know, some of them are baffling, like,
0:06:19not being able to put your photo on a map from within the app. It's like everybody is
0:06:23complaining about that. And I've got all these...
0:06:25Adam: Super annoying.
0:06:26all our pictures and I'm like I know where they were taken and they were taken at the
0:06:28same time that these three phone pictures were taken and I'd like to put them together.
0:06:32Nope. Can't do it. It's frustrating. But anyway, we mentioned that on Connected, episode 35.
0:06:37People should check it out.
0:06:38Steve McLaughlin You should check it out. And we have some listener
0:06:41questions about photos.
0:06:42David Tompa Yeah, I thought I would
0:06:43Steve McLaughlin Insert.
0:06:44David Tompa Collect them here. Yeah, because we've been
0:06:46talking about photos a little bit here. Lister Darren asked, "What's the better photo solution
0:06:52with the new services iCloud or on Dropbox. I know a lot of people are using Dropbox,
0:06:56and especially since if you pay for Dropbox, you've got like a terabyte now. It's a lot
0:07:01of room. I think it depends on what your photo approach is. iCloud is expensive compared
0:07:10to most other cloud services, but you get it integrated in with all of Apple's apps.
0:07:17That's what you're paying for, essentially. The apps are free. You pay for the cloud storage.
0:07:22And I've got about 500 gigabytes of photos and videos now.
0:07:26So, you know, that's what you're paying for.
0:07:30Dropbox, you know, I feel like that's something that you do
0:07:34if you want to take everything into your own hands. I think at that point you should probably be using
0:07:38something that really, truly uses the file system as the management tool.
0:07:42And Photos will let you drag photos in from the file system, but
0:07:46boy, starting to fiddle with things changing in Dropbox underneath the Photos
0:07:50app with reference photos. It sounds pretty scary to me. So I'm using iCloud right now
0:07:55and I'm kind of happy to spend the money because it's super easy and it's automatically on
0:07:59all my devices but you know there's no right answer here. It really depends on what you're
0:08:03willing to pay and what your strategy is and what your family situation is too.
0:08:10Yeah, yeah. So I used Dropbox for a long time using, you know, just using the file system
0:08:16had it structured into folders. And I liked it because it was it was super fast to sort
0:08:20through things and I had hazel rules naming images by the date and time. And it was nice
0:08:26but what for me moving to photos what it's given me is that that visual way to scan through
0:08:32images now yes and finder you could use you know the thumbnail view or whatever make it
0:08:35bigger but and photos that's just it's a very visual way to store things and I've I've come
0:08:41to appreciate that approach again. And even though I'm not so like we talked about connected
0:08:46and not sold about all the iCloud stuff quite yet.
0:08:48It is nice to be back in a more sort of visual way.
0:08:53I can just thumb through a bunch of photos
0:08:55really quickly and find the one I'm looking for,
0:08:57as opposed to clicking through in Finder
0:08:59and waiting for Finder to do its thing.
0:09:01But we'll see where I land long term.
0:09:04I don't promise that I'll stay in photos, but we'll see.
0:09:07That's why follow-up exists, Jason.
0:09:09We can come back when we change our minds.
0:09:11Exactly.
0:09:12I think-- yeah, I'm really enjoying the fact
0:09:15that suddenly for the first time in a while all 55,000 photos that I've got in my assorted
0:09:21iPhoto libraries are all in one Photos library. And Photos has now slowed down a little from
0:09:26what it was when there were only 10,000 photos in there, but it's all still really navigable.
0:09:31And it's not nearly as slow as iPhoto was with even 10,000 photos in it. It moves pretty
0:09:37well. And I was just discovering the other day, like, these pictures that I know that
0:09:43we took of my kids when they were really little. And I know the one picture and I'm looking
0:09:47and I'm like, "Oh, we took 15 pictures then." And I'm looking through and it's like, you
0:09:51know, it's almost like supplementary, like bonus material from my life. It's like, you
0:09:57only know the one picture, but there were actually all these other pictures too. That
0:10:00was pretty awesome. So I'm enjoying having access to all that. And the videos too, since
0:10:04the videos are in the cloud as well and there's a videos view and photos. I'm seeing all these
0:10:09videos of my kids that I took on like a phone when they were little and I've not even seen
0:10:15them in years and they're all in the videos view now which is pretty cool too.
0:10:19Yeah, it's I like some of that. I mean they're not smart albums but you know kind of like
0:10:24I can see all my time-lapse stuff in one place which most of mine are my kids like running
0:10:27around and dancing like in the yard. I just love all of those and I can just see them
0:10:32all in one little place and there's not many of them but it's really an enjoyable little
0:10:35corner of the photos universe. So a couple other quick bits of photos related
0:10:41follow-up. A listener Mark asked, "When it's full, does it stop working?
0:10:47Does it purge old files or does it auto-upgrade size?" The answer is, once your
0:10:53iCloud photo library reaches your maximum amount of storage, a dialogue
0:10:57comes up from Apple and says, "Would you like to buy more storage?"
0:11:01but insert another quarter to keep playing.
0:11:03And in fact, if you try to add a large library to a library larger than your size will fit,
0:11:11Apple stops you and says, "You can't really do this unless you pay more." And so, yes,
0:11:15insert quarter, which is when I went up to a terabyte, which I'm now only using half
0:11:19of, so I've got to figure out whether I want to remove some things from the cloud, like
0:11:23the videos, and go back to half a terabyte, or if I just want to embrace the fact that
0:11:28and I'm putting everything in iCloud. But it tells you. I mean, Apple does. And it's
0:11:35doing some de-duping too. It looks like it is doing like a checksum or something on every
0:11:39piece of media and then asking the server, "Do you have this already?" And if it says
0:11:44yes then it de-dups. That doesn't always work. I got a bunch of things. My first digital
0:11:51camera was a Canon Powershot. I got like S110 or something and it didn't have. That was
0:11:55when that was my first digital camera. It was a point and shoot and it was back when
0:12:00the accelerometer was not a standard feature on digital cameras. So you had to when you
0:12:06shot something in portrait you had to import it and rotate it because it didn't know that
0:12:10the camera was being held in that orientation. So I found a bunch of pictures of my parents
0:12:19holding my daughter right after she was born in the hospital where there are two of everything.
0:12:24with them rotated and one not. And apparently I just had the originals and I don't know
0:12:28what happened there, but that was an example where it couldn't dedupe them because they
0:12:31look different, because one of them is a portrait and one of them is a landscape. But if they
0:12:35are the same photo exactly, or the same video, it does a good job. It looks up online and
0:12:41says, "Oh, I don't need to do anything with this. This is just a dupe," and it drops it.
0:12:44So it tries to be efficient at it, but it will warn you if your library is too big to
0:12:51go up to iCloud based on what you've purchased, and then you just buy more space. That's how
0:12:54that works. Or you don't do it. You turn it off. Those are your choices at that point.
0:12:59And Lister Jim asked, "In the Photos app, is there a way to sort the pics within the
0:13:03new Albums view in both ascending and descending order?" You can reorder an Album view. I'm
0:13:08not sure you can do an actual sort. Photos really wants it to be old on top and new on
0:13:15bottom. Really. Like, really, really? I imagine that that might be something that they'll
0:13:19change at some point so you can reverse the view, but that's what they want. But in albums,
0:13:24you can drag things around. You can order an album any way you want. So you could do
0:13:29that, but I don't think there's an auto-sort way. I haven't noticed that to sort it the
0:13:33other direction. I think basically you can free-form it, you know, just freestyle, or
0:13:39you can say sort by date. And those are your choices.
0:13:42That's all I've seen. So if you do it manually, is that order reflected on your other devices?
0:13:46Oh, that's a good question. I should check that out. It should be.
0:13:49be, but I don't know if it is. There are some weird things. Some things don't translate
0:13:53to iOS. It's very much one of those not very Apple-like things where there's things that
0:13:58just don't come over, like to a second Mac, the faces don't come over. The face tagging
0:14:04comes over. So if one Mac has said, "This is Jason Snell," the other Mac will have that
0:14:09tag, but the face identification stuff doesn't come over, and smart albums don't come over.
0:14:16So it's possible to iOS or Mac actually, so they just don't sing on iCloud at all.
0:14:22So it's possible that they don't, but I would think that you would think that they would.
0:14:26I just haven't tested that.
0:14:27That's a great question.
0:14:28You stumped the band.
0:14:29Congratulations.
0:14:30For only there was some sort of book I could buy.
0:14:31Indeed.
0:14:32Well, there was only some book that I could finish writing so that it could be published.
0:14:35There it is.
0:14:36I'm getting close.
0:14:37I'm getting close.
0:14:38Yeah.
0:14:39And so listener Matt wrote in, "I have some feedback on the Magic Mouse."
0:14:42Yeah.
0:14:43Yeah.
0:14:44that two blind men trying to figure out if it's an elephant kind of situation
0:14:48where it's people who don't use the magic mouse comment on the magic mouse
0:14:52do you use the magic mouse no I use the same mouse Myke uses the Logitech
0:14:58revolution MX well listener Matt has because he uses the magic mouse has told
0:15:05us there's an app that you can get at magic prefs calm that lets you set up
0:15:08taps to work as clicks on the magic mouse he says it's great and that it
0:15:12doesn't physically click, there's a small speaker that makes the sound of because
0:15:17a silent mouse was freaking out the original testers. So that's one of those
0:15:20those fake, like the MacBook when you click on it, it actually makes a sound
0:15:25because the the surface vibrates, but apparently the Magic Mouse provides
0:15:32audio feedback. This is what listener Matt says, "Regardless, we don't use it, so we
0:15:36We don't know.
0:15:38But sure, a Force Touch Magic Mouse would be great.
0:15:41We think.
0:15:42Yeah, maybe.
0:15:43I mean, I don't know.
0:15:45I haven't used Force Touch, except in the Apple Store.
0:15:52And I could see how, once you get used to it, right, like if you're like me, I've
0:15:57got a MacBook Pro, right now I'm using it by itself, just plugged into a bunch of stuff
0:16:01at my desk at home, but at work it's on a stand with a display and keyboard and mouse,
0:16:05and I could see once you get used to force touch somewhere,
0:16:08you would want it everywhere.
0:16:10So for me, it's the gestures and the trackpad.
0:16:12Then I go to the Logitech mouse, and I have no gestures.
0:16:15And I've gotten used to that.
0:16:17I've mapped.
0:16:17It was nice with Logitech, you can map thumb down
0:16:20to various things.
0:16:21And you can kind of fake it a little bit.
0:16:23But I could see once you're-- you
0:16:26want your setup to be the same as much as possible.
0:16:29So at some point, I think it'll show up other places.
0:16:32I don't know how it would work at a mouse.
0:16:34are those modules you know the magnets and everything small enough can you power them
0:16:38on AA batteries I mean there's lots of questions there but one day I think they could show up
0:16:43everywhere yeah I don't know I don't know my knowledge of Magic Mouse is so is zero but
0:16:50but thanks to Matt for the for the report back well I think we move on to regular topics but first
0:16:57it would be great since you're being Myke today it would be great to for you to tell us about a
0:17:03a friend of the show if you could.
0:17:05- I would, I would love to tell you about Igloo,
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0:17:11So Jason, why invest, Jason,
0:17:15why invest in the latest, sleekest devices
0:17:17if you're gonna use them to stare at an internet website
0:17:19that was built in the '90s?
0:17:21- Woo, '90s, party, woo!
0:17:23- I've used these things,
0:17:24a lot of corporate internets are really terrible
0:17:27and that's where Igloo comes in.
0:17:29Not only can Igloo be customized
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0:17:37if you're in the 6 Plus Club, like Myke and I and all
0:17:40the cool kids.
0:17:41You can use your favorite Apple devices,
0:17:43because igloo just lets you do your best work.
0:17:46Share files, coordinate calendars,
0:17:48provide status updates, and manage projects.
0:17:51Igloo is not just for traditional internet stuff
0:17:54like HR policies and expense forms.
0:17:56It gives you the tools to work better together with your team.
0:18:00Igloo's latest upgrade, Viking, revolves around documents
0:18:03and how you interact with them.
0:18:04You can gather feedback and make changes.
0:18:07And there's an ability to track who
0:18:08has read critical information.
0:18:10So if you send out training and you really
0:18:11need Jason to read it, and Jason's a slacker,
0:18:13you can see that Jason hasn't read it.
0:18:14Yeah, true.
0:18:15You can deal with it.
0:18:16It's like read email receipts, but way better.
0:18:19If your company has a legacy internet that
0:18:21looks like it was built in the '90s,
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0:18:39Thank you so much to those guys.
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0:18:42and all of Relay FM.
0:18:44- Yeah.
0:18:45Our pals, our friends.
0:18:46- Our friends.
0:18:47- So our first topic is the mic vertical.
0:18:51Or the podcasting vertical,
0:18:53but I wanted to just really quickly say,
0:18:55so you saw Myke this weekend in Atlanta.
0:18:57You did the Panatic Live.
0:18:58and I had some text messages because you set up the equipment, you did live audio stream,
0:19:06you did videos. Tell me a little bit about what, I assume that you'll talk about this
0:19:10on other shows too, but I get you first. So give me some of the lowdown from Atlanta.
0:19:15- Yeah, so if people might not be familiar, the Pen Addict is a show here on relay, fountain
0:19:22pens, fancy writing utensils, notebooks, paper, that sort of thing.
0:19:25Yeah, my wife's feedback, by the way, she said that every time I say "pen addict,"
0:19:29she assumes, I say it's about pens, she assumes that that's a tech acronym, like PEN,
0:19:33it's like Personal Electronic Notebook or something like that.
0:19:36I said, "No, it's The Things You Write With."
0:19:37She's like, "Really?
0:19:38A podcast about that?"
0:19:39Yep.
0:19:40Yeah, it's very real.
0:19:41So the listeners in that show funded a Kickstarter, which is super great, to bring Myke to Atlanta,
0:19:49Georgia for the Atlanta Pen Show.
0:19:52So it's like a hotel conference center and there's a couple of rooms and there's vendors.
0:19:57Brad Dowdy, who's a host on the network, also owns a company called Knock where they make
0:20:01pen cases.
0:20:02And so Kickstarter was very successful and we flew Myke over.
0:20:08I came down, drove down from Memphis with my brother who is in the nonprofit sector
0:20:13but his nonprofit does a lot of video work.
0:20:16And so they came down and we've basically filmed the entire weekend.
0:20:23And we did a live audio podcast.
0:20:28So we bought some XLR mics, bought some short betas, and we bought a little USB XLR interface
0:20:34to put all those together, live streamed it.
0:20:38And all of it's a video that the Kickstarter backers will get.
0:20:41They'll get that next month after it's all edited and put together and everything.
0:20:45So it was a heck of a three day thing.
0:20:48I'm really tired.
0:20:49- Yeah, I bet.
0:20:50- But it was a lot of fun.
0:20:51- I bet, you know, I listened to the show live.
0:20:54It was episode 150 of The Pen Addicts,
0:20:56so it was perfectly timed, too.
0:20:58- Which is, it's a bunch of episodes.
0:21:02- That's a lot of pens.
0:21:03- It's a lot of pens, it's a lot of pens.
0:21:04- Love ink, love ink spilled.
0:21:06I was fascinated listening to it
0:21:09because I felt like this is how people
0:21:11who aren't into tech stuff think we talk,
0:21:13which is you throw out acronyms and technical terms.
0:21:17And they were talking about like,
0:21:19I was writing on sandpaper so that the nibs
0:21:22with the widgets are bibbly and the,
0:21:25I'm just making things up now,
0:21:26but it was like, I have no idea what they're talking about.
0:21:29For me, the pen has got the little part
0:21:33that you can attach to something,
0:21:35and then you've got the little clicky part,
0:21:37and the part you write, the end you write with.
0:21:40And that's my pen knowledge,
0:21:41is just that you point it at the paper and it writes. But they were just going deep down
0:21:46and super enthusiastic. And I love that. I love how enthusiastic they were about it.
0:21:51Because it's like those documentaries like The King of Kong or some things like that.
0:21:55But I love documentaries about people who are super excited about anything, even if
0:22:00I don't understand it. And the pen stuff I totally don't understand. But it was fun to
0:22:03listen to them be excited about being together and talking about pens.
0:22:07Yeah, you know, it's one of those worlds where it's very much in parallel to the nerd world
0:22:13that you and I run in, of the sort of Apple-centric stuff.
0:22:16And you also, with The Incomparable, have sort of the pop culture sci-fi nerd kingdom
0:22:22as well that I have kind of half a foot in, you know, don't really spend a lot of time
0:22:27in that world, not as much as you do.
0:22:28But what's great is that passion.
0:22:30I think that's really what defines being a nerd is being passionate about something really
0:22:36specific. And for all these people who showed up to Atlanta, people flew in. Myke wasn't
0:22:41the only one who got on an airplane to come to this. We're at this party at Knox workshop
0:22:48and there's a field note swap going on. There's pictures of it that'll be in the video of
0:22:54these guys with these huge boxes of field notebooks, which I use and I'm interested
0:22:58in. But these guys, they keep them in order of the various issues and have complete clarity.
0:23:06collections and everything and it's just great like the enthusiasm the excitement
0:23:11the the passion for these things is is really what is the common thread between
0:23:16the various like types of nerd I think and so it's it was a lot of fun to see
0:23:20that and and to be a part of it for a weekend and you know I've known Brad for
0:23:24a long time I've been on I've been on their show a couple times about various
0:23:27things but um yeah I had that thought run through my mind if like this is what
0:23:31people like look at all of us at WWDC and like huh those guys are kind of like
0:23:36like passionate about things that I'm not.
0:23:38And it's just the same thing, right?
0:23:40Like, it's the same type of passion.
0:23:43- Yeah, that's exactly it.
0:23:45I recognize the passion, even if I don't recognize
0:23:49what they're talking about.
0:23:50I can appreciate the passion, and I love to see that.
0:23:52I just love it when people are excited about stuff,
0:23:55and they love stuff.
0:23:56That's much more interesting to me than people
0:23:58who hate stuff, and are bored, and the un-wee,
0:24:00and oh God, why am I even here?
0:24:02That's not so fun.
0:24:03the enthusiasm, even if I don't understand it or share it, it's just kind of contagious
0:24:08to be around people like that. So that was a cool little view into another world. And
0:24:13I think it's really cool that the listeners pitched in to get Myke to fly out.
0:24:20Oh yeah. And they made the video possible. And I'm looking right now at the Kickstarter
0:24:24page, 479 backers. And a bunch of those people were at the party, which was a lot of fun
0:24:31just to meet some people, you know, a lot of people like, Oh,
0:24:33I can know your voice from shows. And we gave away some
0:24:37stickers and t shirts and stuff. And, you know, it's one of those
0:24:40things where like, this project, we're doing the super meta
0:24:44podcast thing, but we'll stop in a second. Yeah. Like, this is
0:24:47why we made relay a thing like Myke and I from day one, like we
0:24:52want to try things, we want to do things that are beyond just
0:24:55putting out an hour of audio a week. And this is really one of
0:24:57the first like, big things we've done. And there's another one
0:25:01and actually following on it's another kind of weird,
0:25:03exciting thing we're going to do announced later this week.
0:25:06But it's very much like this is why
0:25:09we did this because we can just go out and do stuff
0:25:11and see if it works.
0:25:12And the Kickstarter was very successful.
0:25:14And we fully plan to do more of this type of stuff
0:25:16with various different shows.
0:25:19With all the great shows.
0:25:20All the great shows, really.
0:25:23So yeah, it was a lot of fun.
0:25:24So thank you to everyone who came out and said hi
0:25:26and backed us on Kickstarter.
0:25:27And it'll be fun to get that video out into the world.
0:25:31It's-- I mean, some of the stuff is just like--
0:25:34we have this shot of this box of Retro 51s, which
0:25:36is a brand of pen.
0:25:37I bought one.
0:25:38And it's like every color in the rainbow,
0:25:41plus like every pattern you can think of all laid out.
0:25:44I mean, just beautiful stuff of made with care, sold with care.
0:25:48People who use them care about it.
0:25:50Like, it's just that--
0:25:51again, that passion, that excitement
0:25:53is just really contagious when you come across it.
0:25:56Yeah.
0:25:57I should mention that it's funny that you said I recognize your voice.
0:26:00This is a story speaking of excitement and passion.
0:26:03This weekend Dan Morin was at the Star Wars Celebration which is the big Star Wars convention
0:26:09and it was in Anaheim and he said he was standing there and heard a familiar voice from behind
0:26:17him and turned around and it was David Sparks from MacPowerUsers who was also at the Star
0:26:22Wars.
0:26:23of them I'll put in the show notes but it was that was kind of funny and I've had that
0:26:28too where it's the voice thing where you realize oh somebody I know from a podcast is standing
0:26:32behind me because I hear their voice. One other short topic before we talk about our
0:26:37next our next friend which is I wrote this thing on six colors last week about buying
0:26:43beer yeah I saw that which people are like well that's that's different that's not your
0:26:48usual, that's not your usual subject. Well, one of the things that Six Colors affords
0:26:53me is the ability to write about whatever the heck I want to write about if I think
0:26:57that it's sort of relevant. And I thought this was sort of relevant because I was standing
0:27:01in Whole Foods because the Whole Foods is right next to my house essentially and it's
0:27:07easy to walk over there and we were getting something else. And whenever I'm in there
0:27:10I like to look at what beer they have because they, you know, and then your brain is doing
0:27:14the processing like you're just looking down a row and then you look down the next row
0:27:17and you're trying to read the labels but not study each of them because there's a whole
0:27:20bunch of them. And it struck me that this is exactly how I used to shop for books, for
0:27:26CDs, back in the day when there were record stores, and all sorts of other things that
0:27:33back when things were scarce. And with beer, there is not, at least in the US, it's not
0:27:38like there's an Amazon for beer where you can literally get anything that's available
0:27:42and see what's not available. It's old school. There's not a whole lot to this other than
0:27:48to say that it struck me that this is old shopping style, but it still remains for a
0:27:54few categories, and in other categories it's been completely blown away. Because I remember
0:27:58looking for that particular Peter Gabriel album in cassette or CD form for several years,
0:28:07like two, three years before I found it in a record store in Ashland, Oregon when I was
0:28:13on a school trip. And I remember that moment of like, "Hooray!" And I have people say to
0:28:18me, nostalgically, like, "Wasn't that a great moment when you finally found it, and wasn't
0:28:21it fun to hunt for it?" And I say, "Well, I don't know if it was fun to hunt for it,
0:28:25but it was something I could hunt for, something I could do in a record store." And now I walk
0:28:28into a bookstore and I'm like, "Eh, I have nothing to look for here. I mean, I can look
0:28:31at the shelves, but I'm not going to buy anything. I probably already got it on a Kindle and
0:28:34whatever. But you know what would have been better than finding it in the record store
0:28:40in Ashland, Oregon would have been having it two years before when I discovered that
0:28:44this album existed. That would have been better. And I know that's not very nostalgic to
0:28:48say, "No, the thrill of the hunt for the thing that's missing and all that," but
0:28:51I would rather just have it.
0:28:53Jared: Yeah, I'm the same way. Like, I'm why those stores don't exist anymore. Also,
0:28:59I was one year old when you bought that cassette tape.
0:29:03I was 17, I think, when I found that, or 16. But yeah, I was a senior in high school when
0:29:11you were a little tiny baby looking for a tape. And I did find that on tape. That was
0:29:16an era where not everything was on CD yet. And that was an obscure solo album from 1978.
0:29:25And it was available on cassette, and I found a cassette. And that was a great score. But,
0:29:30you know. I would have rather just had it. It just struck me that with beer, there's
0:29:36a beer that I found that I really liked and it's hard to find now. It was a limited edition,
0:29:40so it's probably just not being made, and that's fine. I realized there's no way to
0:29:43know. Some places might have it in stock, some might not. It's just a crapshoot. That's
0:29:49fine. It is kind of an adventure, although if I find something I really like and then
0:29:52I can't get it, I just kind of want to have it and I can't get it. That frustrates me.
0:29:58it was just the bigger picture of, "This is how shopping used to be." And, you know, we
0:30:02can look at it through nostalgia, but I was like, "That kind of sucked. I really like
0:30:05that if there's a book that exists, I can get it." Like, Infinite Loop. We were talking
0:30:10with John on this show, and he said that's the one to read that's about Apple and about
0:30:15how Apple kind of loses its way when in the Scully era and after. And it seems to be out
0:30:22of print, but I got one in -- I went on Amazon and I got a used copy in like two days.
0:30:27I did the exact same thing listening to that episode. It's sitting on my nightstand.
0:30:31Yeah, it's right behind me here. And that's kind of awesome. And yeah, I could have darkened
0:30:35the doors of every used bookstore ever and not found it because I didn't go to the right
0:30:40one, but there was a used copy at this other bookstore that was a little further away.
0:30:44Or I could just press a button and say, "Okay, now I've got that book that I want to read."
0:30:49I prefer, call me not appropriately nostalgic, but I prefer to just get the things I want
0:30:57instead of spending years hunting for them.
0:31:00- Yeah, I'm the same way.
0:31:02I think it depends a little bit,
0:31:04like going back to the Field Notes guys this weekend,
0:31:06or like if I'm looking for,
0:31:08there's some things that you have to hunt down, right?
0:31:11Like if I'm looking for a particular Mac
0:31:13or something to add to the collection,
0:31:14I need to do my homework on that.
0:31:16But for instance, like all the audio gear
0:31:19we bought for Atlanta, you know,
0:31:21the nice thing about shopping online
0:31:25is that I can do all this research, right?
0:31:28I knew exactly what I was buying.
0:31:29I knew exactly what I was getting into with it.
0:31:32And it was all mapped out and planned out.
0:31:33So when I set it up, I had no doubt
0:31:35that it would all work the way I expected.
0:31:37And that's the huge upside for me as someone who,
0:31:41I'm not a, usually not an impulse buyer,
0:31:44especially when it comes to like,
0:31:46stuff like audio equipment or big ticket items.
0:31:48I'm going to do my research and do my homework.
0:31:50And I know that when I hit purchase,
0:31:53that I'm not planning on using Amazon's very generous return
0:31:57policy.
0:31:58And so that's the huge upside, right?
0:32:00Like 15 years ago, I would have had a go--
0:32:02and there were several local audio AV music stores in town.
0:32:05I could have bought those microphones and cables
0:32:07and stands from any of them.
0:32:10But you're talking to the sales guy,
0:32:11and maybe the sales guy is not super knowledgeable
0:32:13about vocal mics.
0:32:14Maybe he's a guitar guy, and he's just
0:32:16in the mic section for some reason,
0:32:17and you catch him, right?
0:32:19There's all those variables that just don't really
0:32:22exist anymore.
0:32:23yes, there are people who review things that don't know what they're talking about, but
0:32:26you can read such a wide cross-section of reviews and articles and comparisons that
0:32:33you can make a really informed buying decision.
0:32:35And that, as someone who cares about that sort of stuff, is great for me.
0:32:40When I bought my USB interface from my microphone, I bought two of different ones, and I tried
0:32:45one out and tried the other out and then sent one back.
0:32:47That was great.
0:32:49That was really great.
0:32:50and because I couldn't decide. You could do that before, but you'd have to go to an audio
0:32:57store and hope they had it in stock, both of them or one of them, and see what their
0:33:01return policy is. Anyway, my story was not really about beer so much as how I think our
0:33:07expectations for shopping have changed and how shopping for beer feels very 20th century.
0:33:14There are reasons for that. There's the 18 restriction. There's the weight of the cost
0:33:18of shipping. It's seriouspets.com kind of stuff where it's like, "Why do we want to
0:33:22ship this? It's really heavy." In the U.S., there's lots of interstate transport of alcohol
0:33:30kind of laws. It's totally understandable why this is not a thing that has been revolutionized
0:33:35like some other areas. It's sort of quaint in that way and I suppose nostalgic. I'm happy
0:33:42with the 21st century way of shopping. Yeah.
0:33:45Yeah. Yeah, totally agree. All right, it's time for another sponsor break. I guess this
0:33:51is my job now because I always read this one. So you get to take, like Myke, you get to
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0:37:04Relay FM.
0:37:09John Siracusa retired from writing reviews.
0:37:14He did.
0:37:15I saw that.
0:37:16I was at an NBA game.
0:37:19And I was at a baseball game.
0:37:21We posted pictures of sports things in the relay chat while we were doing sports things.
0:37:25all over the place. We were sporting, yeah.
0:37:28And yeah, so I, you know, pick up my phone for a second and it's like someone had texted
0:37:33me, "Did you see the news about John Syracuse?" I was like, "What is that?"
0:37:37Is he okay? Yeah, yeah, that was actually my first thought.
0:37:39I was like, "Oh my God." And so yeah, so there's, he's been doing this, what, 15 years? It's
0:37:45crazy. Yeah, yeah, since the 20th century.
0:37:50Wow. Actually.
0:37:52Yeah, it's been a while. I had that moment where I looked at the first bylined OS X review that I wrote was X1. So that's October 2001.
0:38:07So I am considered older than dirt by a lot of people because I've been writing about Apple since '94.
0:38:16before, but John was out there with his OS X reviews before I was. I like to think that
0:38:23I basically have written a review of everything since 10.0, but the fact is the first few
0:38:29articles that Macworld did on it, I was the features editor, so I was editing them, and
0:38:33I did a lot of rewriting some of those articles because we ended up having really technical
0:38:36people write them, and then the job of the editor was to shape them into an article that
0:38:43was less technical and understandable by other people, it was a funny era because we were
0:38:48all kind of bogging down in the Unix stuff and all of that. So I've got my 10.1 review
0:38:55and it's still online and that one is very much like the "it's safe to go in the water
0:38:58now" review. But to think that John, I mean that's just one of those things, like John
0:39:04was there from the very start writing that stuff.
0:39:07Yeah, the early ones are before Aqua. So when it still looked like the classic Mac OS, it's
0:39:15really a wild time to flip through those.
0:39:19Yeah, it's amazing. James Thompson, at his presentation, talked about how Syracuse criticized
0:39:26his version of the dock that was in one of the developer previews. It's just amazing.
0:39:32People forget that Jon doesn't do this for a living. I do this for a living. Even now,
0:39:37My job has changed quite a bit, but this is what I do.
0:39:39This is what my job is.
0:39:40John's job is a web developer.
0:39:44That's his job.
0:39:45Everything we know him for, everything that--
0:39:47unless you are one of the clients of John's company,
0:39:51you know John for his side projects.
0:39:54That's just the facts.
0:39:55And we think he's a fabulous, famous star.
0:39:57And he is in our world, as Andy Anacko often
0:40:01likes to say, world famous in Poland.
0:40:03He's got that narrow fame.
0:40:05And he does fantastic work.
0:40:07ATP is my go-to tech podcast. Those reviews are spectacular, but it's important to keep
0:40:13in mind that he's got a family and he's got a day job. And I thought I really liked in
0:40:18his story how he said it's not just about feeling like he's done this job and that it's
0:40:24time to move on, but also having the prospect of a summer where he's not catching every
0:40:30spare moment when he's at home to write chapters of a book about OS X, essentially, is something
0:40:39he's looking forward to. That's a huge amount of work, and that's work on top of his work.
0:40:44And then going to WWDC, that's a week's vacation he takes to go there. It's a big thing. And
0:40:52yeah, we could talk about, like, could Jon quit his job and be Mac Pundit full-time?
0:40:57I think he could, probably, but I think he would be uncomfortable doing it, and I think
0:41:02he takes a great pride in his profession, in what he does as his profession. And I don't
0:41:08think he wants to give up being a professional developer to be an Apple-themed pundit, as
0:41:14good as he is at it. So I totally, I'm glad he wrote it the way he did about the, you
0:41:20know, recapturing some of his time for his family, for other projects he wants to do,
0:41:26it's not like he's going away. When he started, this was his entire outlet, and the fact is,
0:41:30ATP is a great weekly creative outlet for him, and he's on a lot of incomparable episodes
0:41:34too, and that's a great outlet for him. The podcasting has made it so that this is not
0:41:40his only way of expressing his interest in these subjects, and since he's got RSI, so
0:41:47he was dictating this stuff all along, podcasting's better, right? There's very little typing
0:41:51when you're podcasting.
0:41:52Right. No, it makes sense. You know on this week's
0:41:55ATP or last week's I don't know what day it is anymore
0:42:00When he announced it, you know Marco was like, you know from like the reader perspective
0:42:05I'm sad
0:42:05But as someone who knows you personally like I'm I'm not surprised and I'm almost relieved that you're you're making this this change
0:42:12And it is you know, I made a joke on Twitter that you should read these to your children because they're made these
0:42:20Reviews are part of our subculture
0:42:22But at the same time like clearly if you listen to John a podcaster, you know read his site clearly
0:42:28These are taking a toll and it's like yeah, that's just not worth it and and clearly, you know
0:42:32He came to the point where you know this this thing it's time for you know
0:42:37This to end and any of us who have side projects now
0:42:39I'm in the same boat John's in where podcasting writing is not my full-time job and I'm you know carving out of
0:42:46You know family time and time that I could have if I had any hobbies, you know that weren't this
0:42:51So I definitely understand it and there have been things that I've done
0:42:55You know
0:42:56I used to do this monthly like magazine for members of my site in iBooks and it took up so much time
0:43:02I was like, you know, this is great. I really enjoyed doing it
0:43:04I just can't do it anymore, you know, and maybe one day that'll come back
0:43:07but it was a you know, the time in and the value out that equation was just off or
0:43:14Sometimes you just know it's time time to move on from something. So
0:43:17And that's really hard to do. It's really hard to
0:43:21Step away from something that you care about and so my my my hats off to him for not only for writing them
0:43:27But knowing when it was time to stop so well and anybody who who knows John and anybody really who listens to John knows John
0:43:34I mean, that's John John John. That's John
0:43:37He's not gonna half-ass it that's the other thing it's like if he's gonna do it
0:43:42he's going to do it. And I think that's part of it, too, is like, you know, could
0:43:47John -- because I was thinking about this -- who wants to follow John Syracuse doing
0:43:53those reviews at ours? Like, I thought about it because I'm a free agent now, and I don't
0:43:59want to follow that act, but more than that -- so that's interesting. Like, who wants
0:44:04to follow that? I mean, I'm going to cover the next version of OS X, and I'll do it
0:44:08my own way on my own terms, but following that act, not only that, John has to follow
0:44:14that act. John has to live up to his track record. And if his interest is flagging, you
0:44:19know, he doesn't want, I think, to do a 2,000-word review for ours, which he could do, of OS
0:44:2710, because that would not be the John Syracuse review. It needs to be 20,000 words long.
0:44:31And so for him, it's like you got to be all in or all out, and he's all out. And I think
0:44:36that's I think that's good for him it's sad for us that we won't have that
0:44:40definitive piece but it's not like we're losing his voice so you know that's
0:44:45that's I'm happy for him because that is I mean literally you imagine taking up
0:44:51all of your spare time for the entire summer with this project that's he's
0:44:57been doing that for it you know 15 years now right which I mean it really is I'm
0:45:02I'm sure if you add that up, and I'm sure he has,
0:45:04it's really crazy.
0:45:06Yeah, and the annual pace now.
0:45:07It didn't used to be an annual pace,
0:45:08but now that it's an annual pace, it is every summer.
0:45:11Yeah.
0:45:12Yeah, I mean, back Tiger was out,
0:45:14Leopard was out for multiple years.
0:45:16And I agree with you.
0:45:18I didn't really consider it, because I
0:45:21know that gig is beyond what I could do, probably
0:45:24both professionally and time-wise.
0:45:26But I've reviewed Mountain Lion, Mavericks, and Yosemite
0:45:29on my site.
0:45:30And they're not 2,000 words, they're longer than that,
0:45:33but they're definitely not Saracusean in length or in detail.
0:45:37In fact, my Yosemite one is really just a design review.
0:45:41I didn't really get into the features of Yosemite,
0:45:43it's mostly what's new visually.
0:45:46- Right, I remember that.
0:45:49That was a nice angle.
0:45:49See, that's one thing you can do if you're not following,
0:45:52if you're not John, having to do what John does.
0:45:55You can say, "What if I just looked at the design?"
0:45:58Right.
0:45:59And so that's, I think, how I will continue to do that, is find-- Mountain Lion and Mavericks
0:46:03were feature by feature, what's new, screenshots, that sort of thing.
0:46:07But Yosemite was easy because the visual overchange was so massive.
0:46:14And I'll continue to do that sort of thing.
0:46:15It is enjoyable, but I know that just these smaller ones that I'm doing, how much time
0:46:21they're taking, especially the Mavericks one, took a long time.
0:46:26Yosemite was shorter because it was mostly visual and I waited until you know, we were pretty far along
0:46:31In the the betas because the first dark mode didn't even ship with the first couple betas
0:46:37I think so I was like well, you know, I can outline but I can't write or
0:46:40Really talk about it till I can use it
0:46:43but it's um
0:46:45You know, it's one of those things that
0:46:47John's content is not going away. He's gonna be talking about it on ATP and on Twitter and everything and so
0:46:54I will miss reading them, but there's still a lot of ways to experience new versions of OS X
0:47:01before installing yourself. A lot of people are still going to be doing this.
0:47:04Well, it's a much richer environment for that than it used to be, too.
0:47:08That's also true, that there was a time when there were not that many people reviewing OS X.
0:47:12You know, it was--I feel like--and maybe I'm wrong at this--but I feel like there was a time when
0:47:16when I would write a review of, like, 10.2 or something,
0:47:19there were very few others that I could even look to and compare my Mac world feature story
0:47:25to and John was one. There were not often a lot of others and now there are a million
0:47:30of them and different angles and it's just a much richer world than it was when he was
0:47:34doing this, you know, even ten, five years ago.
0:47:37Yeah, it's definitely true, you know, it's, I mean, 15 years is a long time, you know,
0:47:44My site's going to be seven this fall, and that's really, I mean, I've been doing OS
0:47:5010 reviews for three, so it's, you're definitely right, the space has just grown, has grown
0:47:57so much, and that's great, because it is richer, but it is, it's hard to find that definitive
0:48:04review now, you know.
0:48:05Right.
0:48:06So, let's see.
0:48:08All right, I think we can move on to Ask Upgrade, which has a sponsor this week.
0:48:15Can you tell us about our friends who are sponsoring #AskUpgrade?
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0:49:43#AskUpgradeTime. I'm excited to do this.
0:49:50Well, you should hand them off to me. Let me...
0:49:54Well, before we start, there's one more of a #TellUpgrade. Our friend,
0:49:58And the anonymous Apple Store person, who is the same person as before, what we've talked
0:50:04about before, had another tidbit that this person wanted to share, which is, Myke described
0:50:10these, the terminals at the Apple Store, the ETA terminals, they're called, this person
0:50:17says, Isaacs now?
0:50:18Yes, I've heard that as well.
0:50:20And they were upgraded to iPhone 5s last year, at least in the US, and this person says,
0:50:26I'm glad you both enjoyed your Tryon appointments. We trained for weeks on all things Apple Watch.
0:50:33So, you did a Tryon? Did you do one?
0:50:37I did. I did do a Tryon. I did it the first day. So I was up at 3 a.m. ordering and then
0:50:41at the Apple Store at 5 p.m. to try it on. And it was really great. You know, it's like
0:50:46everyone says, it's really personal, it's really helpful. You know, I still know, even
0:50:51though I've been gone for, you know, seven years, I still know quite a few people at
0:50:55the Apple store. And so, you know, one of the majors came over and was like talking
0:50:59me through it, you know, there was a trained employee actually doing the try on with me,
0:51:04but a manager came over and we were talking and the the level it's a very high touch experience.
0:51:09And I think it's something that the Apple store used to be known for before they got
0:51:13so busy. And it's nice to see that return to form of really nice, rich one to one interactions.
0:51:21And I think it's great.
0:51:22I think the whole thing is very well done, very high class.
0:51:26It feels like you're not in a computer store.
0:51:28It feels nicer than that.
0:51:30And so I think it's a great little program.
0:51:32And I would say even if you're not going to buy an Apple Watch, if you're remotely interested
0:51:36in it, you should go just to have the experience of taking 15, 20 minutes to try some on and
0:51:41ask questions and use it because it really is an interesting product and a pretty nice
0:51:46program from Apple retail.
0:51:48Yeah, something that I mentioned last week is the idea that Apple stores with this kind
0:51:54of chaotic, like there's no line, there's no register, you've got to flag somebody down.
0:52:00That's very, you know, it's the future of retail and yet it's also really frustrating
0:52:04when you just want to get something done and you, you know, there's no, it seems chaotic
0:52:08and I like, I think that's a challenge for the Apple retail experience. What I like about
0:52:13the try-on stuff is that it feels, again, like they're introducing some structure and
0:52:19something that feels like really good customer service into the Apple retail store experience
0:52:23because it's frankly it's been a while since I felt something quite that different from
0:52:29the Apple store. Now it's sort of, you know, like I said, it's a little frustrating to
0:52:34flag somebody down. It's not like it's bad service, but this felt like a cut above and
0:52:38I yeah, I think it's worth doing if you're curious about this stuff even if you're not
0:52:41gonna buy. There's no hard sell here. It's just, you know, they're well trained to, you
0:52:46know, they've got their little little rag and their two watches at a time rule and all
0:52:49that and they'll make it they'll make it happen.
0:52:52Yeah, so um, so listener Chris writes in to say, "On Google Plus, the Verge is commonly
0:53:00known as iVerge due to Apple bias. Do you think that's fair?"
0:53:06This comment made me laugh.
0:53:07This is a little inside baseball.
0:53:09Yeah, but basically what I would say is anybody who covers Apple is accused of Apple bias.
0:53:19Anybody who covers Android is accused of Android bias. If you're not a site that is catering
0:53:23to a particular audience, like, you know, I'm writing to people who like Apple stuff,
0:53:29and I write about it in that context. I'm not interested in or qualified in doing a
0:53:34a shootout between iOS and Android. I'm just not interested in it. I tried that for a little
0:53:40while at TechHive, and I decided I'd rather not do that, and that's not what I'm trying
0:53:45to do. But if you're The Verge, you've got to do that. And yeah, anybody who says anything
0:53:49positive about vendor A is going to make the people who are fans of vendor B angry. Do
0:53:54I think The Verge is biased toward Apple? Is it iverge? Well, I don't know. As somebody
0:54:01who knows a lot about Apple stuff, I look at a lot of The Verge's coverage about Android
0:54:07stuff and roll my eyes. So, you know, I think it's all in the eye of the beholder. I think
0:54:11The Verge has a difficult job, as all of these multi-platform sites do, because first off,
0:54:20they have to cover all of this stuff, and that's hard, and second, you know, it depends
0:54:24on each individual reader and their needs. So, you know, if you're somebody who can't
0:54:32decide, then that's a very different story than somebody who's invested into one platform
0:54:37or the other. And if you're somebody who's just looking at stories about the other side
0:54:40as fodder for your, you know, long twilight struggle with the enemy, then sure, you'll
0:54:47be disappointed if an article doesn't provide you with that material because it says something
0:54:51positive about something. So also let's be clear about watch coverage. Nobody is deciding
0:54:56between an Android Wear watch and an Apple Watch because they're both extensions of the
0:55:01platforms. Nobody is saying which one should you get a Moto 360 or an Apple Watch because
0:55:06nobody, and now I've said nobody, somebody's gonna say, "Well, actually, I'm buying a new
0:55:10phone soon and I'm on the fence about Apple or Android." Okay, essentially nobody, how
0:55:14about we say it that way, is going to use the watch right now as the differentiator.
0:55:19that'll happen someday, but I feel like if you've got an Android phone, you're looking
0:55:22at the Android watches. If you've got an iPhone, you're looking at the Apple Watch. There's
0:55:25really no other game other than the Pebble. Hi, Pebble.
0:55:29Steve McLaughlin Hi. Those guys.
0:55:31Chris Smith But, so I think, you know, I don't think it's
0:55:34fair. I think it's a tough job, and I think there are a lot of people who are always out.
0:55:39The people who are calling the Verge iVerge are people who want the Verge to bash Apple
0:55:43and are disappointed that they say nice things about Apple from time to time, in addition
0:55:47to saying not nice things about them. But those people aren't interested in in by in
0:55:51unbiased coverage. They're interested in their bias.
0:55:53Yeah, you know, I'm putting the link in now there's some roommates I think so good such
0:56:02a guy to a fight in a parking lot. A guy hit another guy with a beer bottle over iPhone
0:56:11versus Android. Yeah, I mean, that might be taking it a little far. I mean, I don't want
0:56:16tell anyone how to live their life, Jason. But I feel like if you have assaulted another
0:56:20human being over their phone choice, maybe you should think about things.
0:56:23Reconsider your life. Although I will say that story says alcohol is said to have fueled
0:56:28the escalation.
0:56:29Yeah. Oh, shockingly so.
0:56:31Less than smartphone dispute. Yeah. Yeah. I'm shocked that that might be the case.
0:56:37It's crazy.
0:56:38You don't say that is taking it a little bit far.
0:56:39And you want people to buy beer on the internet. Come on.
0:56:42Well, yeah, I don't want the internet vending the beer directly to them.
0:56:46I just, you know.
0:56:47There you go.
0:56:48So, listener Jimmy, our friend Jimmy, Upgradient Jimmy perhaps.
0:56:53Perhaps.
0:56:54I don't think I'm equipped to bless somebody as an Upgradient.
0:56:57People can be an Upgradient if they want.
0:56:59I have to make something up if they don't identify themselves as an Upgradient or a listener.
0:57:04Yeah.
0:57:05So, he asks, "Would it make sense for Apple to make an all-inclusive subscription?
0:57:10unlimited iCloud storage, beat streaming, iTunes match, etc. So right now, you buy
0:57:16iCloud space that can take care of your photos. But if you buy iTunes match, it's
0:57:20a separate charge. iTunes matches what 20, 30 bucks a year. Beat streaming at some
0:57:26point is going to be, you know, more into the Apple fold. Right now it's a separate
0:57:31separate thing. So Jimmy's asking, does it make sense to just have, "Hey, I want to
0:57:36pay for just Apple cloud services, checks and boxes, I get what I want, I get one bill.
0:57:42Sounds great.
0:57:43Yeah, it's a nice idea.
0:57:44This is like Amazon Prime, like Apple Prime.
0:57:47I think it's a great idea.
0:57:48I do get frustrated by the fact that I've got an iCloud subscription that renews at
0:57:52a different time than the iTunes in the cloud subscription, iTunes match subscription, and
0:57:56the Beats subscription.
0:57:57I have all of those.
0:57:59They all renew separately.
0:58:00I think it would be great if Apple offered something like Amazon Prime where there was
0:58:04an all-in Apple thing. And this is Apple we're talking about. Apple wants people in their
0:58:08ecosystem. It seems to make sense to me to offer people a fully commit to Apple services
0:58:15kind of thing, and offer a la carte, too. So I think it's a good idea. I imagine that
0:58:21Eddie Q. and company have talked about this, but it makes sense to me. I would much rather
0:58:26just write them one check, put one auto renew on my credit card, and walk away and not worry
0:58:31about it instead of the whole like how much and adjusting their storage options offering
0:58:37an unlimited tier or a very very high storage tier I think would be great too as a part
0:58:42of that because that's one of those places and we talked about Apple retail customer
0:58:47experience that's one of the places where I feel kind of nickeled and dimed by Apple
0:58:50is in the storage like they have all these little tiers and they're way more expensive
0:58:54than their competitors and it just feels very un-Apple to do that and I'm not saying Apple
0:58:59shouldn't charge people. I'm just saying the way they do it where it's like, well, you
0:59:02get five for free and then you can upgrade to 10 or 20. It seems very bureaucratic. It
0:59:06seems very Microsoft-y. It does not seem like... and the way their competitors are going is
0:59:12very simple. Like Dropbox literally now has you get it for free or you pay. And that's
0:59:16it. There are two tiers. There's a terabyte or there's the free tier. That's it. That's
0:59:21the whole thing. So, yeah, that's a great idea, Jimmy. Million, million. As I like to
0:59:27that's a million dollar idea.
0:59:29(laughs)
0:59:30- He's gonna get a--
0:59:31- It's gonna cost a million dollars, unfortunately.
0:59:33Sorry about that.
0:59:34- Well, listener Jimmy can maybe get some sort of percentage
0:59:37right off the top from Apple.
0:59:39I think that's only fair.
0:59:40- Yeah, it's like an affiliate revenue thing for the idea.
0:59:42- Exactly.
0:59:43- Yeah, all future Apple Prime accounts
0:59:45will be an affiliate deal for Jimmy.
0:59:48- Yeah, I do agree that the Nook-Lund diming
0:59:50definitely feels real.
0:59:51And what's nice in Yosemite, I think in Mavericks as well,
0:59:55In the iCloud preference pane, you
0:59:58can adjust your billing right there.
1:00:00But for anything iTunes, you have to go into iTunes,
1:00:02go into your account, you have to authenticate like three
1:00:05times.
1:00:06And your app subscriptions, like if you have Evernote Premium
1:00:09or something that comes out once a year every month
1:00:11or something, that's all in there too.
1:00:14I would like just sort of a dashboard of my accounts
1:00:17and have it all in one place.
1:00:21I think there's room for improvement there.
1:00:23I think they'll get there.
1:00:24Apple, surely someone at Apple knows that that's sort of a janky experience and Apple
1:00:28doesn't really like janky experiences, so I think they'll come around.
1:00:32- Yeah, I hope so. I think some of it too is that it's different parts of the company.
1:00:37And Beats obviously was completely not part of the company, but I think there's different
1:00:40parts and they're out of sync and somebody needs to come in and say, "Okay, here's our
1:00:44plan." You know, presumably there's somebody in charge, like a revenue person who's in
1:00:48charge of all of this saying, "We need to do a better job of marketing our offerings
1:00:53and put something together that would be better.
1:00:55That's a good kind of marketing, by the way,
1:00:57is when they're like, how do we bring things to market
1:00:59in a way that people will understand you need those people?
1:01:03Anyway, Lister Kevin had a comment, a really good question.
1:01:08- He did, so Lister Kevin says,
1:01:11and I'm gonna use his pronunciation.
1:01:13- Okay.
1:01:14- So Kevin asks, will we ever see an OSXi
1:01:19or is OS X the permanent/final Mac OS?
1:01:23- So I would probably think they would never pronounce
1:01:26it O-S-X-I because they don't pronounce it O-S-X
1:01:29except if you're listening to the audiobook
1:01:30of "Becoming Steve Jobs," in which case they do.
1:01:33(laughing)
1:01:35But this is the constant OS 11 question,
1:01:37which is, is OS X the final,
1:01:39are we gonna truly have OS X?
1:01:41We already have 10.10, right?
1:01:43Is there gonna be 10.11, do they change it?
1:01:45And what I would say is,
1:01:47it's easy to get hung up on the numbering thing
1:01:48'cause it came from nine to 10,
1:01:50but it was always a marketing term.
1:01:52It was always the Roman numeral, like, and the big X.
1:01:55It was always marketing and not, the number didn't matter,
1:01:58which is why it's 10.10 now.
1:02:00So I don't think, I don't think, personally,
1:02:03there will ever be an OS 11.
1:02:05I don't think that's gonna happen.
1:02:06Also, keep in mind, iOS, in a couple of years,
1:02:09is gonna be iOS 10, which is also gonna be weird.
1:02:12So here's my theory.
1:02:15I'm gonna throw out a theory here.
1:02:17I think OS X, first off, could just stay as the Mac OS name forever until there's no Mac
1:02:23anymore, until they do a huge operating system shift in 10 years.
1:02:30Somebody who's not John Saracusa will have to write "Copeland 2040."
1:02:36But so here's my theory.
1:02:37I think OS X is an old name.
1:02:41It doesn't have the resonance that it used to, and we're about to have a collision with
1:02:45iOS.
1:02:46I'm just going to throw it out there, just a wacky idea. I think at some point soon in
1:02:51the next couple of years, Apple is going to start referring to OS X as Mac OS again, and
1:02:57we'll have Mac OS and iOS. And at that point you might have Mac OS version 11.0, Mavericks,
1:03:05or whatever, you know, Big Sur, Arcadia.
1:03:07Yeah, so a couple things come to mind. A, OS 9 wasn't going to be a thing. If you go
1:03:14go back, like, they were gonna do a bunch of releases of OS 8, and they were gonna go
1:03:18to OS 10, OS 9, and I was like, "Oh, we need a thing," which is really my favorite part
1:03:22of that.
1:03:23- OS 8 wasn't even gonna be a thing.
1:03:24OS 8 was just gonna be 7.7 or something until Steve Jobs figured out that's how he could
1:03:28get the clones out, was to say, "Oh, your license is only for system 7.
1:03:32This is OS 8.
1:03:33Goodbye."
1:03:34- I'm just gonna change the number.
1:03:35- Yeah, and then 9, 9 came actually after 10, which is the other funny thing, is that
1:03:39was already out and they did 9 as the bridge release for 10 and 10 ran 9 in
1:03:44classic and uh yeah so it's all weird. It's weird so there's that and
1:03:48really that was my favorite part of Apple people mocking Windows from going
1:03:51Windows from Windows 8 to Windows 10 because Apple did basically the same
1:03:55thing but but also too if you look at the way Apple markets them starting with
1:04:01really starting with line and mountain line but especially now you don't see
1:04:06Mac OS X 10.10 written out or referenced very much by Apple.
1:04:10The marketing label is Mac OS X Yosemite.
1:04:15- It's not even Mac, it's OS X Yosemite.
1:04:16- OS X Yosemite, and so they've already
1:04:19adjusted course a little bit.
1:04:21Back in Jaguar, Panther, Tiger, it was very heavy.
1:04:24This is Mac OS X 10.3.
1:04:26That's what it was called, that's what Apple called it.
1:04:29- And then you got into the 10-point whatever name
1:04:33where they kind of mixed them together.
1:04:35they've pushed toward the Yosemite Mavericks kind of thing, which is why one thing they
1:04:41could do is continue to call it seriously. They could consider calling it OS X and rev
1:04:47it to version 11 and nobody would care, except nerds who would be like, "Well, actually,
1:04:5310.10 is not a possibility because it's a decimal system and those people are already
1:04:57dead because Yosemite is 10.10."
1:05:00- Yeah, so I do think they're gonna have to do something.
1:05:04- I think iOS 10 is a problem.
1:05:08I think you don't want iOS 10.
1:05:09So that's when things get weird.
1:05:12So I would, for me that would be,
1:05:15I don't see how the 10 is important branding anymore.
1:05:18You know, you've got Mac, everything is Mac now.
1:05:21There's Mac and there's iPhone and iPad.
1:05:24So iOS probably sticks around
1:05:26'cause iPhone and iPad are products.
1:05:28They all have the I in front of them,
1:05:29No apples moving away from the eye, they all have them.
1:05:32So OS X, could it just be Mac OS?
1:05:35So then you've got Mac OS 11 and iOS 9, maybe?
1:05:40- It's hard to say.
1:05:41- I don't know.
1:05:42- It's, I'm sure there are people who this keeps up
1:05:46in Cupertino, realizing they're in some sort of
1:05:48weird collision course with names.
1:05:50- Yeah, yeah, I mean this is just like when they
1:05:52introduced the new iPad that one time
1:05:54and they didn't want to give it a number
1:05:55because they were like making arguments
1:05:57that we should just always call it the iPad
1:05:58realized yeah that's not gonna. Also they keep old versions around now so they
1:06:03need to have the numbers so that they can explain no no this is the iPad Air 2.
1:06:06iPad Air also available iPad Air 2. Faster. So we'll see we'll see but I I am
1:06:14coming around to the crazy theory posited here that maybe OS X as a brand
1:06:20will get transmogrified into something more like Mac OS again like in the old
1:06:24days because you know OS X was intended as a reassuring transition from previous
1:06:29Mac OS generations and an exciting step into the future but that was a long, we
1:06:34talked about John's reviews, that was 15 years ago man, that was a long time ago.
1:06:39It's just the Mac now. What differentiates OS X is not the 10, it's the Mac.
1:06:42This is the operating system that the Mac runs, so call it that.
1:06:45Yeah, so we'll see. We'll follow up in three to six years.
1:06:51Yeah, I'll check back right here. Yeah, this is the beauty of making really
1:06:53long-term predictions is no one remembers them so if you're wrong it's
1:06:56fine yeah so check back that'll be on upgrade number 190 we'll check back then
1:07:04yeah check listen to mark writes in says regarding Apple watch accessibility
1:07:08could a blind person use one and have the tactic engine tap out the time it's
1:07:14a it's interesting there's a there's an accessibility page up that that is this
1:07:17just came up this weekend or pretty recently last week yeah yeah it's a
1:07:21recent edition about accessibility. Apple's talking about accessibility on
1:07:24Apple Watch now. Which is great and before we dive into it, I definitely
1:07:30love that this is such a big point of concern for Apple where so many
1:07:35companies just don't do anything about it. So it always makes me happy to
1:07:40discuss and see what Apple's up to in this area. And the watch, you know,
1:07:44it's little, right? Like, I would imagine a hard accessibility thing
1:07:50to solve, but looking at this webpage, I don't see this particular suggestion listed, but
1:07:56there's a lot of stuff on here that should make this easier to use for people with both
1:08:00vision and hearing issues going on.
1:08:05Yeah, I mean, we've talked about the idea that the walking instructions being able to
1:08:11tell you to turn left and right and things like that.
1:08:13I imagine this is going to be early days.
1:08:15It's great that they've got an accessibility story now.
1:08:17I think the idea of tapping the time and things like that is a really great idea too.
1:08:21I think this will get better.
1:08:23I think between voiceover, because even if you're blind, the watch is a speaker on your
1:08:29wrist attached to iPhone apps so it can talk to you and you have a touch surface that you
1:08:36can use to navigate a little bit.
1:08:39There are going to be some really great applications for that down the line.
1:08:42It's probably going to be rudimentary to start, but I do think there's a lot of potential
1:08:49here, and Apple does care about this.
1:08:50Apple knows that this is one of those areas where it can actually lead, and it fits, as
1:08:54we've talked about on Upgrade before, it fits with how Apple sees itself, which is as a
1:08:59force for good, and that's not just marketing.
1:09:01I think that's one of their things that they ask themselves is, "How can we make this product
1:09:07that we're doing, how can our presence be a force for good and change in the world?"
1:09:11So I think there'll be more there, but it's a start, and the fact that there's a page
1:09:16about it I think is encouraging too.
1:09:19Apple's not going to even know.
1:09:20I think as with so much with the watch, it's going to get out in the market, and then everybody,
1:09:25including Apple, is going to learn a whole lot about what to do.
1:09:28I would not be surprised if the Apple Watch software changes dramatically over the first
1:09:32year just because, in the same hardware, just because they're going to be learning things
1:09:37and realize, "Oh, nobody uses this," and, "Oh, what a great idea that we didn't implement."
1:09:41It would just not surprise me if they change a lot in that first year, because they're
1:09:44going to learn so much.
1:09:45Yeah, I mean, the iPhone OS definitely did that.
1:09:48And what's nice, you know, now iOS, those accessibility tools are really rich.
1:09:52And as well on the Mac, you know, there's a lot of stuff and, you know, the things like
1:09:58reducing transparency, like not just for accessibility purpose, but I use that because I don't like,
1:10:03I don't care for the transparency and it makes, you know, it makes weird little edge cases
1:10:07happen.
1:10:08It's not just for people who necessarily need it, which is nice.
1:10:12It gives you some other options if you don't care for something.
1:10:14But yeah, I totally agree.
1:10:16I think watchOS is going to have some pretty significant iteration.
1:10:19So you know, they did it on the iPhone, right?
1:10:22The original iPhone did very few things and the App Store was out the next year on the
1:10:26same hardware and all of a sudden your phone could do a billion things.
1:10:29And even though this is launching with watch kit and native apps are coming at some point,
1:10:35You know, if you look back at those original, you know, 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 iPhone OS releases,
1:10:42some pretty significant changes, I think this will just follow in those footsteps.
1:10:46I agree.
1:10:47We have one last bit of listener feedback.
1:10:51Now, again, there is an Ask Upgrade element to this, which is listener Eric sent us a
1:10:56tweet from astronaut Sam Cristoforetti on Twitter.
1:11:01She posted from the International Space Station a tweet pointing at the Dragon capsule which
1:11:06was coming to load up the station.
1:11:09And there's coffee in that nebula, I mean that Dragon.
1:11:12So Italian, and as Lister Eric points out, the Dragon spacecraft was carrying an espresso
1:11:18machine designed for zero gravity, which is kind of amazing, and I can see why an Italian
1:11:23astronaut would want that.
1:11:25But Lister Eric's question is, is this the first Star Trek uniform in space?
1:11:28'cause she appears to be wearing, she is wearing,
1:11:30essentially a Star Trek Voyager uniform,
1:11:33which I noticed and I thought, that is one of them,
1:11:35and it's got a pin that's not like a,
1:11:37it's not the Star Trek Comm badge,
1:11:39but it's something in that spot,
1:11:40and it just made me laugh, because that's awesome,
1:11:44that there is somebody wearing a Star Trek uniform
1:11:46in outer space, that is really funny.
1:11:47And you know what, she wants her coffee, dammit.
1:11:50- Yeah, I mean, I would think, you know,
1:11:52I've read, I'm a NASA nerd, I've read a lot about, like,
1:11:55life on the space station, and coffee seems like
1:11:58pretty central part of it. So I know, you know, our, our Italian co host on connected
1:12:05is would be very happy to see that this is now on now we can send Federico into space.
1:12:11Now there's zero gravity espresso. This was the only thing holding it back really this
1:12:15is it get get to get to the Cosmodrome. Yeah, iPads work iPads work on the space station.
1:12:20So that's right. You can have espresso he can do his thing. I think he could he could
1:12:25that is the most mobile workstation ever. He could just bring his iPad, he could do
1:12:29Max Stories from space. All he needs is an iPad, an internet connection, which they sort
1:12:34of have, and Espresso. I think this is a new, exciting direction for Max Stories. I suspect
1:12:41that Federico won't be wearing a Star Trek uniform, though. Unfortunately. Probably not.
1:12:47But thank you, listener Eric. I don't know if that's the first Star Trek uniform in space,
1:12:50but that was a pretty great tweet on so many different levels, so I'm glad that you
1:12:55you send it in. Well, Steven, I think we're at the end. I think we did it. I think we
1:13:02managed to do a show without Myke.
1:13:04Steven: I think so. I think we're both still here.
1:13:06Steve McLaughlin Yeah, it seems so. Nobody died. That's my
1:13:09number one thing with podcasts. Did anybody die during the podcast? No.
1:13:12Steven: Do many people die on podcasts with you?
1:13:14Steve McLaughlin I don't like to talk about it. It's just
1:13:17my baseline. It hasn't happened. Okay, it hasn't happened yet that people have died.
1:13:22But I figure if nobody dies, then it's probably a pretty good show.
1:13:25Yeah, I've listened to some of your Star Wars episodes.
1:13:27It's amazing no one has just blown a blood vessel.
1:13:29Oh, that's true.
1:13:30I think that's the closest we've come is, you know, "John, John, are you out there?"
1:13:34You know?
1:13:35Yeah, just gurgling on the floor.
1:13:37He's on the floor.
1:13:38He's like, "I just need to gather myself for a moment."
1:13:40Yeah, exactly.
1:13:41Well, this was a lot of fun.
1:13:43We should-- we've got-- Dan Morin is really jealous.
1:13:46He's like, "When do I get to guest host Upgrade?"
1:13:48and it's like I do talk to him every week on on on another show on clockwise
1:13:52but but it's fun to have it's fun to have special guest stars so I'm glad you
1:13:57could do it while Myke is busy schlepping around pens in Atlanta yeah
1:14:01well thanks for having me a lot of fun and we should we should not only thank
1:14:05each other we should thank our three sponsors before we go we should sure
1:14:10igloo mail route and go to meeting go check them out there's links in the show
1:14:13notes all of the links we have spoken about today you can find in your
1:14:17podcast app of choice or in any web browser you might find yourself sitting in front of
1:14:22at relay.fm/upgrade/33.
1:14:26Very nice. You podcast app of choice. You got it in there. It's like you listen to the
1:14:29show. That's nice.
1:14:30It's true. I do every week.
1:14:32Have you seen this as Spinal Tap?
1:14:35A long time ago and only once.
1:14:37That's fine. That's that's...
1:14:39It was a thousand percent time more than Myke.
1:14:42So that's right.
1:14:44Now you guys are equal.
1:14:45He just reached you last week.
1:14:46So all right.
1:14:47Well, this was great.
1:14:48Thanks to everybody out there for listening to Upgrade.
1:14:51And Myke will be back next week.
1:14:52Steven, thanks for being the guest host.
1:14:54And we'll see you next week, everybody.
1:14:57Adios.
1:14:58(upbeat music)
1:15:00[Music]