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0:00:03From Relay FM, this is Upgrade, episode number 19.
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0:00:34My name is Myke Hurley and I'm joined as always by the man about town, Mr. Jason Snell.
0:00:39Hi Myke, I'm the man about town, eh?
0:00:43Uh huh, that's what you want to say.
0:00:46Interesting way to describe somebody who works inside his house.
0:00:49You're a Snell town, you know?
0:00:52Sure.
0:00:53You're the mayor of Snell town.
0:00:54I bring it with me, yeah.
0:00:55I don't know where that came from.
0:00:57It was the first thing that came to my head.
0:01:00I have a little bit of a sore throat today so I might be a little bit husky, Jason.
0:01:05I'm just getting over my cold.
0:01:06My cold is finally abating.
0:01:08I'm almost out of it.
0:01:09I'm almost done with the cold.
0:01:12So I'll probably get the flu.
0:01:13I've been thinking about it recently, right?
0:01:15I have a sore throat because over the weekend I went to a birthday party.
0:01:19My brother was celebrating his 30th birthday.
0:01:22So we celebrated and in celebrating my throat became sore because out in nightclubs and
0:01:29talking to people it's loud.
0:01:31And I think to myself these days I should take more care of my voice so maybe I'll take
0:01:34like an extra sketch or something next time and just won't speak.
0:01:39This is how I always feel with WWDC.
0:01:40I'm not used to spending a lot of time out in loud environments shouting at people in
0:01:48order to be heard.
0:01:49And so whenever I go to WWDC or some other conference,
0:01:54I have this where I shred my voice in very short order.
0:01:57It happens really quickly.
0:01:59- Yep, I can feel it going within like 20 minutes.
0:02:02- Yeah, and where was it?
0:02:04At Singleton, I was doing a podcast with Dan Morin
0:02:07after one of the events in the evening.
0:02:10And Dan and I looked at each other about 10, 20 minutes in
0:02:13and we're like, we need to stop talking
0:02:15or our podcast later is gonna be,
0:02:18"Hello, Dan!"
0:02:19(laughing)
0:02:20You know, it just completely wrecked.
0:02:21So yeah, you're gonna have to watch that.
0:02:23Your voice is your professional tool now.
0:02:28It's your instrument.
0:02:29- If you would like to hear myself,
0:02:32Stephen, Jason, and Dan very hoarse at WWDC,
0:02:37there is an episode of the pre-relay Clockwise.
0:02:41- Oh yes. - Where we did that.
0:02:42And it was quite funny, like we were doing that show
0:02:44and I was like, "I can't talk, guys."
0:02:46I'll put it in the show notes.
0:02:48It's quite funny to hear us.
0:02:49There was lots of drinks around the room
0:02:52to try and keep everybody speaking.
0:02:55- Yeah, yeah.
0:02:56It's not good, you know, yeah.
0:02:58It may be entertaining content,
0:02:59but down quality in terms of voices.
0:03:03You need to be able to be heard to be on a podcast.
0:03:05I think it'd be difficult for somebody
0:03:07who's lost their voice to be on a podcast.
0:03:09- So we have a real barnstormer of a show today.
0:03:12- We do.
0:03:13This is a biplane that is going around from town to town
0:03:16doing tricks aerially. It's that kind of show.
0:03:18- It's that kind of show.
0:03:19So we're gonna kick it off with some epic length followup,
0:03:23but in a good way.
0:03:25So why don't you tell me what we've got?
0:03:27- Yeah, yeah, good followup.
0:03:28We're doing some restructuring of formats and verticals
0:03:32and we've had some notes from the network executives
0:03:36and it's all gonna be good.
0:03:38But we'll start with a little followup
0:03:39because I love the followup.
0:03:41Listener Rob wrote in to say,
0:03:44Thank you, Jason, for motivating me to finally write my thing about all day battery life.
0:03:51So we talked last week about Apple solving for X with batteries and Myke pushed back
0:03:57on some of the theories in my charts, which actually was quite enjoyable.
0:04:00I really enjoyed that you were like, "Well, wait, what about this?"
0:04:03And that was, I love the give and take of that segment.
0:04:05I thought that was really great.
0:04:07Rob wrote a piece that we can put in the show notes where he talks a little bit about battery
0:04:13life and who uses, you know, people are creatures of habit. He said we get used to plugging
0:04:21in our phones, that more people would have their phones run out of battery if they never
0:04:29plugged in their phones, but you get trained to plug them in in order to hoard electricity
0:04:32and then you end up in a place where your phone lasts, but it's been tethered. And he
0:04:38he makes a bunch of other points
0:04:39and it's an interesting piece,
0:04:40but I wanted to use that as a jumping off point
0:04:43to also based on some feedback
0:04:45that isn't in our notes that I got is,
0:04:47just to discuss this,
0:04:50Apple seems to feel like there are,
0:04:54Apple is well aware there are people
0:04:58who want more battery life on their iPhone.
0:05:00They're well aware of that.
0:05:02I think Apple seems to feel that the people
0:05:04who really, really want more battery life
0:05:07are a relatively small group that can just buy
0:05:10an external battery or a battery pack.
0:05:11And I talk to people all the time,
0:05:12there are certain people who never use
0:05:14an external battery pack.
0:05:15And then there are other people who are like,
0:05:16"Oh yeah, I always just buy a Mophie case."
0:05:19Like always, that's always what they do.
0:05:21'Cause that for them, they like to live their life with that.
0:05:24And Apple's approach seems to be that everybody else
0:05:29shouldn't have to take on more thickness and weight
0:05:31in their phone for, in order to fulfill the needs
0:05:35of this smaller group of people who want more battery life
0:05:39than what Apple is willing to give.
0:05:41Now, the question is, where do you make that cutoff?
0:05:44If it's half the people want more battery life
0:05:47or 70% of the people want more battery life.
0:05:50If most iPhones or many, very many iPhones
0:05:53are always on battery packs
0:05:55because the battery is just not good enough
0:05:57to the point where it starts to also hurt sales of iPhones
0:05:59'cause everybody says you can't buy an iPhone,
0:06:01it doesn't have enough battery life.
0:06:04Apple has to make that decision about what is a niche feature and not fulfill it.
0:06:11And I feel like with a battery, I mean, that's definitely, that seems to be what they're
0:06:15doing is saying, look, most people get by just fine.
0:06:18It's not hurting the perception of our product.
0:06:21There are certain people who really, really, really, really want more battery life, but
0:06:24there are third party products for them.
0:06:26we're not going to subject every person who uses this device to extra weight because some
0:06:34people really want more battery life, especially when they're third-party products. So that
0:06:38seems to be where they're coming from.
0:06:40So with my 5S, I had it living in a Mophie case for practically all of its life because
0:06:47I wanted that extra battery, it doubled my battery power. But now with the 6 Plus, if
0:06:52If I wanted a Mophie case, there's no way I could use it.
0:06:55It would be huge.
0:06:56Like, can you imagine?
0:06:57Although, with the 6 Plus, there is one.
0:06:59I know, yeah.
0:07:00But with the 6 Plus, it seems a lot less necessary, because the 6 Plus actually does have the
0:07:04best battery life of any iPhone.
0:07:06Yeah, definitely.
0:07:09I do wonder about battery life being a niche.
0:07:14I don't think it is.
0:07:16There's nobody in my life that I know that doesn't have battery issues.
0:07:23People are plugging their phones in multiple times a day or they're complaining that these
0:07:27phones don't get battery life or whatever.
0:07:29I can't think of anybody that I know that wouldn't be happier to have more battery life.
0:07:40Is that magic more battery life or is that more battery life but their phone is bigger
0:07:44and heavier. That's the trade-off, right? And I want to make it clear too, I got a couple
0:07:50notes about this. When I'm stepping through Apple's thought processes here, that is not
0:07:55an endorsement necessarily. I'm just trying to understand why Apple does what it does
0:07:59in some of this stuff. And I think that it's an interesting question of like, Apple presumably
0:08:05has an internal research department that is polling existing Apple customers and prospective
0:08:13Apple customers and really trying to get a read on people's attitudes toward this stuff.
0:08:18And so Apple probably has a pretty good idea of what at least they think the add-on battery
0:08:25market is versus the people who buy an iPhone and don't buy an add-on battery. And I think
0:08:32it's an interesting question of where do you change your priorities? Where do you make
0:08:35the cutoff? I think we're talking about this because this is closer to being an issue than
0:08:42I mean there are things that are truly like so far out on the edge that you're
0:08:47like you know I'm switching to desktop Linux you're like all right you know
0:08:51you're so far off on the edge of the mass of the people who buy this product
0:08:55that I'm not so worried about you you're going to find a way to make yourself
0:08:58happy
0:08:59I'm not going to take this product and mess it up a little bit just to satisfy
0:09:02these edge cases but this one seems like it's a bigger issue and that there there
0:09:08is more opportunity for Apple to revisit it and say well and which they may have
0:09:11have done by, certainly by making the phones bigger, they've gotten battery life as part
0:09:16of the bargain. And so I think that's interesting. But it's not that I'm necessarily endorsing
0:09:21this line of thought. I'm just trying to understand why Apple does what it does, because I find
0:09:24that can be illuminating in trying to understand what else they might be doing. And I think
0:09:29this is an interesting question for that reason.
0:09:33So I had some follow-up and a little bit of pushback last week about my kind of claims
0:09:41about my battery life and how great I think it is basically.
0:09:45And I remember talking, I believe, with Nick Donnelly
0:09:50on Twitter, Upgrading listener, Nick Donnelly,
0:09:53and he was kind of saying that your battery life is great
0:09:57because of all the non-screen battery life it gets.
0:10:00Like it's not actually that much better was his claim.
0:10:03So I was thinking about this,
0:10:06and I think what he was kind of meaning is like,
0:10:07yes, the audio playback is way longer on the 6 Plus,
0:10:10but standby and using the screen isn't.
0:10:12So I wanted to think about this and kind of,
0:10:14I took stock today of the way that I've used my phone.
0:10:18Now, there is one thing that's really frustrating.
0:10:21I wanted to include one of the usage statistics
0:10:23as like a screenshot,
0:10:24but I had to restart my phone at one point today
0:10:28because I'd lost data coverage.
0:10:29It was weird, blame EE, my carrier.
0:10:32So now I can't get the numbers, the actual numbers,
0:10:36but I have times, so I can give you that.
0:10:38So basically, I looked at it today, and so from 9am to 4pm, I have used my iPhone constantly.
0:10:44I've used it to check and reply to email, I've read the documents for these show notes
0:10:49in Google Drive, I've read all of my Twitter-themed stream for the day, I was playing video, I
0:10:56was watching YouTube videos at one point whilst I was eating some lunch, I've been playing
0:11:00games, I've used maps, and I've been listening to Overcast, so I've been on a two and a half
0:11:05hour round trip today, for example where I was also listening to Overcast and
0:11:09playing games at the same time because I think when I use my phone I'm very
0:11:13rarely have the screen off like even if I'm listening to a
0:11:17show I'm playing games or reading Twitter or something like that. So between
0:11:229 a.m. to 4 p.m. so I've used my phone I think constantly throughout that period
0:11:27maybe like an hour where I wasn't where I was in a meeting I had 15% battery
0:11:31life left on my phone by 4 p.m. So I think, I mean, and people can argue with
0:11:38me, I think that's incredible and it's way more, way more than I got on my 5 and
0:11:44my 5s. Yeah. Like I would have sometimes 15% by like 11 a.m. doing the same kind
0:11:51of stuff. Yeah, I think most of the tests that involve screen on show that the 6+
0:11:56life is crazy. Yeah and like to give, yeah, to give our kind of an idea to show
0:12:02like it is kind of screen on time in like the last 24 hours. I'm looking at
0:12:07the percentage like 17% tweetbot, 16% messages, 15% home and lock screen and
0:12:12then it kind of goes down from there. So I mean I'm looking at it today and
0:12:18coming out like yeah no that I think that's pretty impressive. That's a work
0:12:20day. I've done an entire work day working on my phone for the entire day and it's
0:12:25and it's lusted.
0:12:26- Yeah, yeah, no, it's good.
0:12:29I think the nice thing about the bigger screens
0:12:34is that by doing bigger screens,
0:12:37Apple is also picking up better battery life.
0:12:41Even if it was never on its own enough,
0:12:43I think with the bigger screen,
0:12:44it gives them an opportunity to do better battery life.
0:12:49And I liked, I mean, we had feedback
0:12:52based on our discussion from people talking about
0:12:54this idea that Apple's power isn't solving the issues,
0:12:59they're not solving for X so much as they're a prisoner
0:13:05to the way that the technology grows and changes
0:13:09and all of that.
0:13:09And I don't really buy that because I think in the end,
0:13:12they could always make it bigger or heavier
0:13:14or keep it the same.
0:13:15And they often choose not to do that.
0:13:18And that shows where their priorities are.
0:13:20Yes, they are a prisoner in the sense that
0:13:22this is a math problem.
0:13:23why I say it's solving for X. This is algebra, you know, you change one variable and the
0:13:27other variable has to change, and you're trying to get the right balance. And the way I figure
0:13:33it, there's a number below which they won't go. And it varies some, but that number is
0:13:40lower than I think some people, mystery number of people, would put the minimum battery life.
0:13:47I think a lot of people would put it higher. But the good news is with the 6 line at least,
0:13:53that number has come up perhaps as a side effect
0:13:57of having more area inside the device,
0:14:01so more places for battery to go,
0:14:03just because you increase those screen dimensions
0:14:06and even though it's not very thick,
0:14:08that's still, you're adding a lot of area,
0:14:10a lot of volume inside the device.
0:14:12Anyway, I think it's an interesting topic
0:14:17and I'm glad we got some feedback about that.
0:14:22uh...
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0:16:13more follow-up. Something related it seems to last week when I admitted that I don't
0:16:18use full screen mode very much, not even when editing, not even when editing using Logic
0:16:2210 on an 11-inch MacBook Air, which I admit is kind of crazy.
0:16:27You can't really use Logic in full screen though, because when you're trying to move
0:16:31around the interface, it kind of sometimes requires you to drag outside of the app to
0:16:35move quickly enough. So even though I am a full screen person, I don't use Logic in full
0:16:41green because it slows me down. I will sometimes use it once I'm finished
0:16:47dragging everything in and I'm just kind of motoring away with with editing for a
0:16:52while but it's not it doesn't save me that much space either honestly it saves
0:17:00me very small amount of space. Anyway, related to podcast editing I'm
0:17:06gonna write something about this on six colors this week but I should pass on
0:17:11I made a video. I made two videos this week, actually. I posted two videos this
0:17:19week. One of them we'll put in the show notes. Well, we'll probably end up with
0:17:23both of them in the show notes, won't we? But I'll put one in for you right now,
0:17:28Myke. I did a time-lapse of me editing the incomparable this weekend, and I'm
0:17:34gonna write about how I edit podcasts and embed that video, but it's up now,
0:17:39so we can put that in the show notes. I saw CGP Grey did this with an episode of Hello
0:17:45Internet I believe, and I thought that was an interesting idea, and when I write about
0:17:50editing people ask me how I do my editing, and I occasionally post a screenshot and people
0:17:54try to understand what the heck they're seeing, and I realized it might be useful sometime
0:17:58to do a time lapse. So there's a video up at, I think it's like 200x of me editing an
0:18:06episode of the incomparable, a fairly straightforward episode of the incomparable that you can go
0:18:10see, speaking of editing things.
0:18:13The difference between yours and Grey's video is Grey's video is 65 minutes long, because
0:18:18he didn't respeed as much as you did, so depending on your tolerance.
0:18:22Yeah, I took the maximum speed of Final Cut Pro, you know, the 200x mode, and I just said
0:18:30do that, and so it's about 10 minutes long, which should be enough.
0:18:34You can pause it, you can move around in it and see stuff if you want to.
0:18:39And it's a 1080, it's a full HD, so the resolution is pretty good if you want to see it at that
0:18:43level.
0:18:44And, and, you know, you can set speed on YouTube, so you could watch it at a quarter speed if
0:18:49you wanted to.
0:18:50Exactly.
0:18:51There you go, brilliant.
0:18:52So plenty of options there, and I will write something up about that hopefully this week.
0:18:57That is a top tip from me, by the way, the speed on YouTube.
0:19:01Like if I'm watching a video, like a keynote video for something, like I'm doing some research,
0:19:05I tend to watch it at like 1.5 and it helps me get through things a lot quicker.
0:19:11People who listen to podcasts at elevated speeds will appreciate this tip.
0:19:14They will.
0:19:15Uh, listener Connor, uh, wrote in related to this saying, "Establishing habits, Apple
0:19:21releases a new feature that allows greater productivity.
0:19:23How does JSON implement it?"
0:19:25Um, I have two answers to this.
0:19:28One is, I tend to try all the new things because I usually am reviewing this stuff, so I have
0:19:33to use the new features.
0:19:35And so I do.
0:19:36And sometimes those new features will stick, and I'll use them.
0:19:41And other times they won't, and they'll fall by the wayside.
0:19:44And there are many, many, many OS X features, for example, that I have used during the development
0:19:50phase of the operating system, and then the moment that I'm done with my article, I never
0:19:56use them again.
0:19:58happens a lot. Why is this Jason? Why do you think this is? Are you so ingrained that you
0:20:04don't, things don't catch on? My second point was I've been a Mac user for 25 years, right?
0:20:09And it's not just habit, but it's efficiency. And this is something that I think, the key
0:20:17moment to adopting a new workflow, I think, we should talk about this with David and Katie
0:20:23time. Mac power users, vertical. The key moment is when you realize that your super optimized
0:20:31thing that you've built up over time, because I think that's what most of us do as users
0:20:34is we build up these super optimized workflows that may not even make sense, but they built
0:20:40up step by step. Each step made sense. I think that happens a lot in life where you create
0:20:44this crazy percolage of things and you would never go that way by choice, but each step
0:20:53seemed to make sense. And so you end up with this thing that is efficient for you and really
0:21:00idiosyncratic, but it works and it works for you. And a lot of computer users have that.
0:21:06They're like, "Well, I do it this way." Well, I don't. Why do you do that? Like my editing
0:21:10video, right? It's like, why do you edit it that way? Somebody who's a professional audio
0:21:13editor commented on the video on Twitter and he said, "This is both I don't watch and must
0:21:22watch" because there are probably things in there that will make me go "Why?" and other
0:21:25things that will make me go "Oh!" right? So my point is we do this and we build these
0:21:30things up and this is how we do our jobs on computers. The trick is when something new
0:21:38happens to, if you're lucky, you look at it and you realize that if you do this new thing,
0:21:46even if it's slightly more work in the beginning, you can see that it will be less work in the
0:21:52end once you are comfortable with it. And that's a hard thing to do because there's
0:21:56a learning curve there and it's unfamiliar and you have to have the kind of vision of
0:22:03like, "Oh, that might be a better way to do this. Maybe I'll try that." And that's hard.
0:22:07And sometimes people just, I mean, most of the time, probably people just don't do it.
0:22:09They just don't bother.
0:22:10They're like, look, I've got, I've got it the way I want it.
0:22:13I'm really efficient with this.
0:22:14Like, like Chris Breen tried to get me to edit podcasts and audition because he thought
0:22:18audition was superior to logic.
0:22:22And I, I just, one is I just learned how to do logic, but the other thing was I had constructed
0:22:28what I think is a very good logic editing workflow for the kinds of shows that I do
0:22:34and what I'm trying to solve for, back to algebra, which is I want a good quality show
0:22:40but I also want it done as fast as possible and I can do it really quickly with my approach.
0:22:46And I think Chris's approach is more careful in some ways, but takes longer. And it's one
0:22:56of those things that I could probably learn Audition and it might pay off, it might not.
0:23:03And I decided, you know what? I just started doing logic. I'm pretty happy with it. I'm
0:23:06going to stick with it. But I think we all have that with new features of any operating
0:23:10system. You know, any, any upgrade to software upgrade. Okay. So ding, the show's paid for
0:23:16itself. Um, and it's a challenge. It's a challenge for all users. Cause I think actually the
0:23:21more efficient you are, the more a power user you are, where you're getting, doing these
0:23:25weird things in order, putting different apps together, using utilities like, like text
0:23:30Expander or Keyboard Maestro or things like that, the more of that you build on, the more
0:23:36efficient you get, but the harder it is to unravel that and go back to something and
0:23:39try something new. So that is, I have the assorted cruft of 25 years of being a Mac
0:23:45user and although OS X kind of broke a lot of that stuff, I've still had, you know, whatever
0:23:5011 or 14 years, 13 years of OS X hardcore use to do the same thing. So yeah, it's a
0:23:58a challenge. So I try because I have to write the reviews. At least I have to try this stuff.
0:24:03Although one of the challenges with writing the reviews is if you're writing on like a
0:24:07separate boot partition, you know, you're not really using it. You're like, "Doot-doo-doo,
0:24:13here I am in this new beta of OS X Monterey Bay, and I'm using doot-doo-doo. Okay, now
0:24:19I need to do work, restart, and then you do your work." Well, until you're really using
0:24:25it on your real work and I know that's dangerous but until you're doing that you're not really
0:24:28using it. You're just kind of tooling around in it and clicking on things and that's not
0:24:33the same. So it's a challenge but I feel like I'm actually having an advantage in that my
0:24:38job requires me to try it at least but even for that, even when you have that, like you
0:24:42have to try it, it's hard to adopt that stuff.
0:24:45Yeah I think it's, you know you say you kind of hinge on that point by saying it's your
0:24:52history like your long history with the Mac but I think everyone's the same like
0:24:56we all have our kind of our entrenched workflows like and it's
0:25:02very difficult to break them like I was editing in GarageBand for way longer
0:25:06than I needed to because it was what I knew I just knew how to use it and I
0:25:11had logic I had logic yeah and I was just like ah but but I only want to
0:25:17spend three hours editing this show and if I go to the new program whatever day
0:25:22I do that it's gonna be ten hours. I had seven, never used it. I bought seven and
0:25:28never used it because I was convinced that I needed to learn it. I mean seven
0:25:33the UI was just like a it was like a toxic health stew basically and and
0:25:40like ten when they brought ten out I was like right I can go in and do this now
0:25:44because or X I actually don't it's called X right did I call it X or they
0:25:49call it 10. They call this one X, don't they? They could go back and forth.
0:25:53No, I think it's 10.
0:25:54Oh, so confusing. But it's 7 to 10. And then when that came out, I was like, "I can understand
0:26:00this and it's new so I can kind of jump in," and I did that. But that took me a long time
0:26:05to then learn it, you know? And I'm still learning it. It's this thing like I use logic
0:26:09every single day and there are so many features I don't fully understand how to use yet. But
0:26:14I know what I know and I know what I need to know.
0:26:17And that's kind of a very kind of a simple thing
0:26:20for everybody.
0:26:21Do you know what's hilarious?
0:26:22Right now, I've just been told on my Mac
0:26:24to learn what's new in OS X Yosemite.
0:26:26It's like they can hear us.
0:26:28You know, come on over guys, let me show you how to use it.
0:26:30- No, the dialogue box should be like accept or deny.
0:26:35Just no, I don't want to know.
0:26:37Do not tell me anything that's new.
0:26:40I think Connor's question is good.
0:26:42I'm kind of serious.
0:26:43I feel like we should come back to this at some point.
0:26:47I think this is something that, interesting podcast
0:26:51that I listen to touch on this sometimes,
0:26:54but I feel like maybe this is the,
0:26:55a lot of times it's the unsaid thing.
0:26:59Maybe Upgrade is the right place,
0:27:00since that's really what the name of this podcast is,
0:27:04to talk about something you hear on Mac Power Users
0:27:06or something Merlin talks about on Back to Work.
0:27:10He does that sometimes too.
0:27:11And there's this, I'm fascinated by that idea
0:27:15that software companies work very hard
0:27:17to create things that are new, new tools,
0:27:19things to improve your workflow
0:27:21and users tend to fight against it,
0:27:23which is an interesting push and pull.
0:27:24Like, you know, we need to give you,
0:27:26instead of it being users with pitchforks and torches
0:27:29demanding new features,
0:27:31the way it seems to work in the software world
0:27:34is all the users are like, no, don't change it.
0:27:37And the software company is like,
0:27:39guys, we gotta stay in business.
0:27:40You gotta buy new features.
0:27:41Here are some new features for you.
0:27:43You like 'em, try 'em, come on.
0:27:44And the user's like, "No, no, I don't want anything new."
0:27:48Not all users, but that happens a lot.
0:27:49That happens a lot with people who really rely
0:27:52on certain pieces of software to do their jobs,
0:27:54because they don't like change.
0:27:55They've got these super-optimized workflows,
0:27:57and it's a challenge,
0:27:58'cause it's hard to move things ahead.
0:28:01I think this is why Apple,
0:28:03I mean, this is exactly why everybody freaked out
0:28:05when Apple did Final Cut X.
0:28:07And I'm not saying, again,
0:28:08I'm not saying Final Cut X was a good idea.
0:28:11All right, let's see.
0:28:12I am.
0:28:13I think it was a good idea in general to say,
0:28:15we're going to, we want to do something
0:28:17that's very different.
0:28:18The problem was the way they communicated it
0:28:20and the way they put it out there,
0:28:22it was everybody perceived it as being,
0:28:24oh, you should upgrade.
0:28:25And it wasn't, it didn't have the features
0:28:28that anybody who was using the previous version
0:28:30of Final Cut could, you know,
0:28:33so many of them couldn't upgrade to it
0:28:34because it wasn't really an upgrade.
0:28:36They should probably have called it, you know,
0:28:38something new, new cut, second cut, I don't know what.
0:28:42- It should have been just labeled as a beta,
0:28:44like initially, and just put out that way.
0:28:45- I kind of feel like it should have been,
0:28:47I kind of feel like it should have been a new name.
0:28:49A new name, maybe hearkening back to the old name 1.0,
0:28:51because that's what it was, right?
0:28:53But I understand why Apple wanted to do that,
0:28:56and I totally understand why the users rebelled against it,
0:28:58because again, you make your livelihood in Final Cut Pro,
0:29:01and Apple gives you this thing, and you're like,
0:29:02"Whoa, this is nothing like what I used."
0:29:04And there, again, optimized workflows,
0:29:07I've got everything where I want it.
0:29:08Now you're completely messing this up.
0:29:10And even if in the end, after a lot of work
0:29:13and a bunch of updates, it is a better approach.
0:29:16That's a lot of work that people may not want to do
0:29:20ever or right now.
0:29:21And just like you and me with logic, same thing.
0:29:24It was clearly going to be in the end.
0:29:27And that's why I finally jumped,
0:29:29is I realized my frustrations with GarageBand
0:29:32reached the point where I knew
0:29:34that I needed to put in the time.
0:29:36This is actually very similar to our feedback last week about scripting, an automator and
0:29:42things like that.
0:29:44At some point you realize, "Oh my God, if I put in five hours right now, I'm going to
0:29:47save 100 hours in the next year."
0:29:51That's what drives that change, I think, is that final realization that what you've got
0:29:55now, although you optimized it, is just not good enough.
0:29:59There's something out there that probably is better, and then you take the plunge.
0:30:03And also Apple ripping out some of the podcast templates and features in GarageBand was like,
0:30:08"Okay, time to go to Logic."
0:30:10Like, Apple making their decision made on this, "You can still use the old GarageBand,
0:30:15but at some point..."
0:30:16It was like with Final Cut, right?
0:30:17It's like, "At some point, you're not going to use it anymore, so you've got to kind of
0:30:21learn the new thing."
0:30:22So I decided instead of trying to learn the workarounds, which there are workarounds,
0:30:27to get in GarageBand to still output as a podcast like you'd want.
0:30:30I figured it's just time to move to Logic.
0:30:32This topic, this idea, like you mentioned a moment ago about the company deciding that
0:30:38they need new features, that users need new features and users rebelling, ties in really
0:30:45interestingly to the software turnaround that we've been talking about recently.
0:30:51Like who then, who is actually pushing the need for a yearly release cycle?
0:30:57Is it the company, Apple, thinking that if they don't do this they're going to be irrelevant
0:31:01or is it users really wanting it,
0:31:02and maybe users don't want it.
0:31:04I just think it's an interesting thing
0:31:05that actually ties back to something
0:31:06that we've been talking about for the last couple of weeks.
0:31:09- Yeah, I mean, where is the drive?
0:31:11I think there's some features that users,
0:31:14I mean, the fact is, it's that famous thing
0:31:16about the faster horse that I guess,
0:31:18maybe somebody actually said,
0:31:20if you ask people what they wanted,
0:31:22a carriage horse and buggy users,
0:31:24they'd say a faster horse, they wouldn't say a car.
0:31:26Users don't always know what they want,
0:31:27and that's sort of Steve Jobs famously has said that,
0:31:30that they don't do a lot of focus group testing at Apple, right? Because people don't know
0:31:33what they actually, what they need until Apple comes up with it and presents it to them.
0:31:39And there's some truth to that. There are features that you're like, "Oh my God, this
0:31:42is so great." But there are also things that it's that march of progress. It's like, "Oh,
0:31:46well, you need to change how you do things, but in the end it'll be great." And people
0:31:50are going to be much more resistant to that than if it's like a totally new thing, I think,
0:31:54that comes out of left field. Yeah, this is really interesting. We've gone beyond follow-up
0:32:00now. I feel bad because we had short follow-up and now that hasn't happened, but this is
0:32:04really a topic. So thank you, Upgrading and Connor, for driving us into this topic, which
0:32:10is I think one of the core questions of being a technology user and I think one of the core
0:32:14things that we have been and should continue to talk about on this show, which is essentially
0:32:18upgrade or not, right? And upgrades aren't always upgrades, right? Upgrades aren't always
0:32:26what the people want. It's really interesting. Sometimes subscription stuff for companies
0:32:33like Adobe, and Microsoft is doing this too, you could argue that that's a part of this
0:32:38too, that in some ways potentially having a subscription service for your software could
0:32:43allow you to escape from the "we're going to shove an upgrade at you every year or two
0:32:49because we need the money" to this other model which is "look, just pay to use our software,
0:32:54we'll keep updating it, you keep using it.
0:32:57There's nice things about that.
0:32:59There are also bad things like,
0:33:01they just push you a new version.
0:33:03You're like, whoa, wait, what happened to my old version?
0:33:06And there's nothing you can do about it.
0:33:08That can happen with some of that stuff,
0:33:10especially web apps that happens like Google docs,
0:33:12we've got a new version, but I liked your old version,
0:33:14too bad it's gone.
0:33:15Fascinating stuff.
0:33:17- Let's go back to follow up.
0:33:19- Yeah, a couple more quick follow up items
0:33:21and then we'll jump into some of the other big topics
0:33:23we've got. Listener Diane asked if anyone was considering that Apple could be
0:33:27planning a magnetic charger like the Apple Watch is supposed to have,
0:33:31and I think people, I've heard people talk about that, you know MagSafe is that,
0:33:36though. MagSafe is the magnetic charger. It's smaller, I believe, than the one
0:33:41that's on the Apple Watch. I don't know what's gonna happen, you know, I think
0:33:48it's unlikely that there would be an induction-based charger on the MacBook
0:33:52air I suppose it's possible but there are then you need to have a pad or
0:33:56something to put it on I I don't feel like that's gonna be what what they're
0:34:02gonna do so that's my quick answer I think what people are wondering with
0:34:06that question is are they going to bypass that single USB for power
0:34:10completely yeah I think that's the question right I don't think so no
0:34:13neither do I because it one German probably would have found that out and
0:34:18two I don't know where you put it like other people said what about on the
0:34:21- The Apple logo, that would be a disaster.
0:34:24That would just be a disaster.
0:34:25Like there's no good would come of charging through
0:34:28that little Apple logo there.
0:34:30I can't see it working very well.
0:34:31- No.
0:34:32Let's see, Upgrading Zach wrote in,
0:34:36identified himself as an Upgrading,
0:34:38so definitely an Upgrading. - Good man, good man.
0:34:40- And Diane, of course, is the one who suggested Upgrading
0:34:42to us in the beginning, so she's an Upgrading, Diane.
0:34:45Upgrading Zach says, "Do you guys think Apple would dump
0:34:49"the 11-inch and 13-inch MacBook Air
0:34:51and replace them with both with the 12 inch.
0:34:53My take on this is eventually,
0:34:57I think that's probably what would happen,
0:34:59but I don't think it would happen right away,
0:35:01only because Apple seems to have had a lot of success
0:35:04keeping old models around,
0:35:05that you see the old iPhone models around.
0:35:07And the way that works is every year
0:35:09that a chip set is out there,
0:35:10every year all those components are out there being used,
0:35:13they've already, so they've set up the factory to build them.
0:35:16So that's no cost, it's already there,
0:35:18you just have to keep the lines running.
0:35:20and the parts get cheaper over time.
0:35:23So a product with a small product margin to begin with
0:35:28can have a very large product margin later on in its life.
0:35:31This is Ben Thompson just had a two-part interview
0:35:35for Stratechery members about,
0:35:39where he was talking to Hugo Barra,
0:35:40who used to be working on Android
0:35:42and now is at Xiaomi in China,
0:35:46and he's the international VP or something.
0:35:48But he was talking about this very phenomenon
0:35:53that one of the ways that they are profitable
0:35:55on their hardware is that they'll keep models around
0:35:57for four or five years in different markets.
0:36:00And after the first year, they get really profitable.
0:36:03And Apple has done that with the iPhone.
0:36:06The non Retina 13-inch MacBook Pro
0:36:08is still being sold by Apple even now.
0:36:11So my gut feeling is that the 11 and 13 Airs
0:36:14will keep on for a while.
0:36:16And that's why my gut feeling
0:36:18is that the new 12 will be more expensive than the old Airs because it'll be retina
0:36:24and they're not, and they'll be old tech so they'll be cheaper because they can cut the
0:36:29prices and still keep their margins really high. So that's my gut feeling, is that they
0:36:35will eventually fade away, but it will be a fade and not just a "they're gone." If I
0:36:41had to guess, that would be my guess because that seems to make economic sense and it seems
0:36:46to be a strategy that Apple really likes because that's their phone and iPad strategy too.
0:36:51It didn't used to be this way but look at the current iPad line, it's the same thing,
0:36:55right? They're all three versions of the iPad mini are still being sold. It's crazy.
0:37:02Crazy!
0:37:03I would like to give my punditry based on not as much knowledge as you have on these
0:37:09I actually think that the 11 and 13 won't be called the Air anymore.
0:37:16I foresee the 11 and 13 Air going away and the 11 and 13 as they are currently just become
0:37:22the MacBooks and 12 takes the Air.
0:37:25I like your way of thinking.
0:37:26Because I don't see, if it is as thin as it is, they're not the same line anymore and
0:37:31I think Apple are then showing that that 12-inch line is the future of a new product line like
0:37:36they did with the Air in the first place and moved the Macbooks, you know, when they changed
0:37:40all the names around over time, haven't they?
0:37:43Like what's become MacBook has become MacBook Pro and that kind of thing.
0:37:46So I foresee another shift in the naming again, so they end up with the Air line, the MacBook
0:37:51line and the MacBook Pro line.
0:37:53It's possible.
0:37:54There's some confusion there, but if they intend, I would say I am on board with that
0:37:58way of thinking if they intend to keep those products around in some form.
0:38:01Yeah.
0:38:02- 11 and 13 would stay until then they can improve,
0:38:05they can like stabilize the new air model,
0:38:08make other iterations of that in different sizes
0:38:11and then bump the 11 and 13 out again,
0:38:13like they've done in the past.
0:38:15Like we had the air, the MacBook and the MacBook Pro, right?
0:38:18And then the MacBook doesn't exist anymore.
0:38:20So I think it'd be a similar kind of thing.
0:38:22So they'll bump them up and then when they can get rid
0:38:24of those, they'll remove them.
0:38:25- We'll see.
0:38:26I'm intrigued.
0:38:28That's a nice bit of punditry.
0:38:30Well done.
0:38:31- Thank you.
0:38:32Unfortunately, we're not keeping score.
0:38:36One last bit of feedback, which was listener Joe, who said, "If I'm Mac and iOS only, is
0:38:45there any reason to use 1Password over just using iCloud Keychain?"
0:38:50Really good one.
0:38:52Without going into too much detail, because that could be a whole other topic, I think
0:38:56iCloud Keychain is good, and I think it's better than nothing.
0:39:01I've already invested in 1Password, so I feel like I want to keep going with that, but the
0:39:05reasons are it is more flexible.
0:39:09I believe iCloud Keychain only works on Safari on the Mac, is that right, Myke?
0:39:15Yeah, it doesn't work in Chrome on the iPhone, for example.
0:39:17Well yeah, but on the Mac, does it work?
0:39:21Or just in Safari?
0:39:22I'm not 100% sure about that.
0:39:24I'm going to say it does, actually.
0:39:25I'm going to say it does.
0:39:26Oh, okay.
0:39:27Alright, okay.
0:39:28I've made that up.
0:39:29I'll find out.
0:39:30browsers on iOS it doesn't work and it has a great feature where if you
0:39:36sync your 1Password on Dropbox you can actually access inside the
0:39:451Password bundle is an HTML file that you can open in a web browser and you can
0:39:51put in your password and you can use 1Password with just access to the file
0:39:55and no software at all, which is awesome. It supports for multiple accounts on sites.
0:40:01Apple's iCloud keychain is kind of brain dead. It's really really good for one
0:40:07login but if you have more than one login it's not so good. It's also if it
0:40:12doesn't work on a particular site you're just out of luck whereas with one
0:40:15password you can actually go in and edit which fields you want to have it be
0:40:18saved and then it'll work. It's an extra layer of security because when you
0:40:24unlock your phone and are using Safari,
0:40:26iCloud Keychain will work.
0:40:28Whereas with 1Password, you have to enter in another password
0:40:31in order to get it.
0:40:31I'd say iCloud Keychain is really great to have around
0:40:34and I use it for some things.
0:40:35I've got something saved in iCloud Keychain
0:40:37and I just don't even have to bring up 1Password
0:40:39in those instances.
0:40:40I can be like, yeah, iCloud Keychain, great.
0:40:43But it's a typical story of Apple doing a feature
0:40:46that is really nice and friendly and broad.
0:40:49And if you're using the very base set of features,
0:40:52it's good enough.
0:40:53and if you want to go beyond that then that's where the third parties are strong.
0:40:58I found a Chrome support document
0:41:00that says on a Mac Google Chrome uses the keychain access to store your login
0:41:05information.
0:41:06I don't know if it's pulling from it but at least it stores there.
0:41:09I think for me with with one password the other thing is I feel like I have more
0:41:12visibility of what's actually in there.
0:41:14I find the iCloud keychain to be a little bit
0:41:19more hazy and it doesn't really have an update.
0:41:21UI, you've got the keychain assistant,
0:41:25keychain access and all that.
0:41:26And yeah, I mean, it's again,
0:41:28Apple is trying to keep it simple and faceless
0:41:30and when it works, it's fine.
0:41:32As long as you're always on iOS or Mac.
0:41:35- Keychain shouldn't do any more than it already does.
0:41:38It does everything it should be doing in my opinion.
0:41:40And then if you want more, you go one password.
0:41:42Same as like reading list,
0:41:43like it does the bare minimum.
0:41:45And then if you want more.
0:41:47There was one thing I wanted to mention, Jason,
0:41:49it's not really a follow up, but I saw it today
0:41:51and I thought it might interest you, Mac user in the UK
0:41:54is closing its doors, the magazine.
0:41:55- Indeed, yeah.
0:41:57- Now I know that Mac user in the US,
0:41:59is Mac user in the US affected, do you know?
0:42:01- Mac user in the US doesn't exist.
0:42:03Mac user in the UK was the only Mac user remaining.
0:42:05I started my career in Mac user.
0:42:07What happened is Ziff Davis licensed the name
0:42:10outside of the UK from Dennis Publishing in the UK.
0:42:14And so all the other Mac users around the world
0:42:18were Ziff Davis.
0:42:19when Ziff Davis and IDG got together and merged MacUser into MacWorld, all the MacUsers went
0:42:24away except for MacUserUK.
0:42:28So MacUserUK, it's actually the reason why MacWorld in the UK gives stars instead of
0:42:35mice.
0:42:36It's because the mouse rating originated with MacUser.
0:42:39Whereas MacWorld in the US, when it took over MacUser, decided to keep the mice around instead
0:42:45of the stars just because it was a little more distinctive and there were enough of
0:42:48us who are from MacUser who are like, "Come on, use the mouse, use the mouse!" Mouse and
0:42:52the Eddie Awards stuck around even though those were originally from MacUser.
0:42:55That must be a little bit sad then, to see MacUser completely shut its doors now.
0:43:01It is, it's the last thing with that name. And so that is sad. It's a very similar story
0:43:08to the one that I told about IDG, which is, like IDG, Dennis Publishing was run by an
0:43:14iconoclastic billionaire who did what he wanted and who passed away. I mean,
0:43:19Felix Dennis, quite more, uh, uh, of a character,
0:43:25an outsized character than Pat McGovern. Um, but, uh,
0:43:29same story, which is he passed away and, uh,
0:43:32and they're running the business differently and whether that directly impacted
0:43:35the shutting down of Mac user. My gut feeling is that like Pat McGovern,
0:43:39it was more difficult to get rid of some of the long-standing products with the founder
0:43:45around than when the founder was gone. But it is sad some great people worked there and
0:43:50some great people came out of there over the last 20 years. I first got to know Ian Betteridge
0:43:55when he was doing MacUser and it's a shame. MacWorld UK, as far as I know, is still going
0:44:01strong which is great and I hope to be over there in March and actually visit with those
0:44:08guys.
0:44:08But not you? No. Well maybe you.
0:44:12Well if I'm not seeing you at Ool
0:44:17in Ireland then I will try to see you in London.
0:44:20One of those things will happen. Maybe we'll do an upgrade, live upgrade.
0:44:24Wouldn't that be something, an in-person version of upgrade? We haven't done that yet.
0:44:27We haven't done that yet. Jason would you like to thank a friend before we get into some topics
0:44:32an hour in?
0:44:33Is that your way of saying that I am thanking the friend personally?
0:44:36Yeah. Okay, well then in that case it must be mail route.
0:44:40You bet it is. I'm happy to thank my friends at mail route.
0:44:43I like to thank them frequently because
0:44:47when I open my mail and there's not spam in it, one of the big reasons why is
0:44:51because I use mail route.
0:44:53If you can imagine this crazy world that I live in, there's no spam, no viruses, no
0:44:58bounced email messages. I open my mail
0:45:00and I only see legitimate mail, the stuff that I want to see
0:45:03and that's because of mail route.
0:45:05Mail route isn't hardware, it isn't software,
0:45:08it is a cloud service.
0:45:09So it sits between your mail and the big bad internet
0:45:13and it takes the mail in, it uses its intelligent filters
0:45:16to figure out what spam and what's virus and what's bounces,
0:45:20it filters that stuff out and then it passes
0:45:21all the other mail along to your mail server.
0:45:24So for a while I was running my own mail server
0:45:27in my house over my own internet line
0:45:30and every spam message that came in
0:45:32was slowing down my internet line
0:45:34and mail route stopped that, which was awesome.
0:45:37And I still use to this day,
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0:46:48And a good friend.
0:46:50So Jason, you did something really interesting this past week.
0:46:55Uh-oh.
0:46:56You went into full-on video production mode at Six Colors HQ. Multiple cameras and everything.
0:47:02Tell me about why you wanted to do this and what the article is about.
0:47:07I think my children would dispute the idea that I'm a YouTuber, but I did post... I got some work
0:47:14to do to be a YouTuber. But I did post a video... This isn't new for me. I have actually done multi-camera
0:47:20video stuff all by myself before for the various Macworld how-to videos that we did over the years
0:47:27and actually for a lot of the stuff that I did under NDA, you know, new Apple products,
0:47:32they would say, you'd sign this NDA that said, we talked about this in episode one, in fact,
0:47:36they signed these NDA saying nobody but your, you know, you can show it to your family, but they
0:47:41they are also under the NDA and you can't show it to anybody else. It's just you. At your whole
0:47:46editorial organization, it's just you, which is kind of ridiculous because you got to have editors
0:47:50and you know there's planning and all of that but that was what the NDA was and
0:47:54so I would sometimes do these videos where I was setting up two cameras and I
0:47:57was editing it myself and I was doing all the technical stuff and shooting it
0:48:01and editing it and then I post it and and simultaneous with me posting this
0:48:04completely homemade video about the iPhone 4 or something there'd be on on
0:48:09the D site at the time also all things digital there would be a Walt
0:48:14Mossberg video where he was like clearly in the studio with a bunch of cameras
0:48:19and that there was obviously a whole technical staff who put this together
0:48:22because I'm telling you Walt didn't edit that himself and I was like God Walt
0:48:25Mossberg it was like he was he was uh he was going a little bit beyond this the
0:48:31the letter of the NDA but at the same time I was happy to do it because I do
0:48:36know how to edit a video if I have to so so I've done that in the past and I want
0:48:42to do more of that I would like to do regular videos on six colors if I can
0:48:46find reasons to do them, I will do them. So I did one about CarPlay. I followed Marco
0:48:52Armentz's lead and he bought a CarPlay unit for testing overcast because he wanted to
0:48:59do overcast on CarPlay. And the way he did it was he bought a unit on Amazon, I think,
0:49:05and bought a couple of adapters so that he could just run it on his desk and not put
0:49:10it in a car. And so that's what I did. I bought a Pioneer CarPlay doubled in head unit on
0:49:19Amazon and I bought a couple of those same adapters that Margot recommended and plugged
0:49:25it in and got to use CarPlay and then decided I would do a video because there are not that
0:49:30many, there are some, but there are not that many CarPlay videos and most of them date
0:49:34back to the fall and I wanted to give my readers a view of what CarPlay looks like today, because
0:49:44I think it's still a little mysterious. And I figured not enough people are writing about
0:49:48or talking about CarPlay and by having a CarPlay unit in my house I can stay up on it if I
0:49:55need to. And if this becomes a thing at all I will be able to write about new stuff that
0:50:00happens with CarPlay, so I figured it was worth the 500 bucks or something I had
0:50:03to pay to buy the hardware. So I made a video which required me to...
0:50:09that was a challenge. I ended up with a camera shooting me on a tripod, that
0:50:15was fine, but to get a camera in position to shoot the screen with the CarPlay
0:50:20interface on it was tricky. I ended up with an iPhone on a tripod and had
0:50:30that like on my keyboard tray pointing at the at the screen of the of the CarPlay
0:50:34thing. CarPlay looks like a disaster. I don't recommend it to anyone. No it looks
0:50:43like a total mess. Yeah. Like so what if you haven't already go and watch the
0:50:49video I loved it as a video by the way because I am more I like to see that
0:50:54kind of thing and rather than just read it. So good. Six minutes of a guy pushing
0:50:59buttons on a touch screen.
0:51:01Woo!
0:51:02Yep.
0:51:03- So just, you can go over to our show notes,
0:51:05relay.fm/upgrade/19, you'll see it in there.
0:51:07You can go watch the video.
0:51:08- And that's where I am right now.
0:51:09That is Six Colors World Headquarters, I'm not kidding.
0:51:11That is the corner of my office with the microphone
0:51:13I'm talking into right now and everything.
0:51:15So if you want to completely ruin your vision
0:51:18of how I do this show, watch that video.
0:51:21- Perfect.
0:51:22It seems like the only app on the entire system
0:51:28that looks and kinda works the way you'd want it to
0:51:31is probably maps.
0:51:32- Is maps, yeah.
0:51:33- Everything else, it looked buggy.
0:51:36Like even like the phone, like Siri just didn't work,
0:51:39it seemed like for some of it.
0:51:40Like you were trying to call your wife, right?
0:51:43And I noticed that you cut the video
0:51:46because it looked like Siri was just not understanding.
0:51:49It was like, what number would you like?
0:51:50And it'd be like, oh, and it'd be like,
0:51:52I don't know what the phone is.
0:51:53- I think in the video I just tapped the screen,
0:51:55I'm like, forget it.
0:51:56- You're just like, just go away.
0:51:58Well, there's a timing issue with Siri a lot of the time where it beeps maybe a little
0:52:04late and you're trying to say it and so it missed it and then by the time you say it
0:52:08again it's given up and so you end up in this really... if you get the timing wrong with
0:52:13Siri it can get really frustrating.
0:52:16And you mentioned you show the messages and you're dictating a message.
0:52:19Why can I not just use the audio feature?
0:52:21Like, just record an audio and send that?
0:52:24That one completely baffles me, is that they put in this audio messages thing in iOS 8
0:52:31and CarPlay doesn't support it, which would seem to be the best way to communicate in
0:52:36the car, is that you could send an audio message to somebody and then if they wanted to send
0:52:40text back to you, at least as an option, I don't know how the interface works to say
0:52:44I prefer, you know, maybe Siri says you want to send this person an audio message because
0:52:48I think Siri knows whether it's compatible or not.
0:52:53But it would be, yeah, I don't understand why.
0:52:56'Cause that would be much easier for me to just say,
0:52:59"Hey, Myke, I'm headed over, I'll be there in 20 minutes,"
0:53:04and have it just send my audio of me saying that.
0:53:07And then if you want to reply,
0:53:08it would just, I'd just hear your voice.
0:53:09And it's not, it doesn't do that.
0:53:11It's all text to speech, speech to text.
0:53:14Just that's, yeah, it feels like it's old Siri.
0:53:18It actually, Gruber was writing about how he feels like Siri's gotten a lot better lately,
0:53:22and I agree.
0:53:24When I use CarPlay, I feel like, "Oh, this is how Siri used to be."
0:53:28It feels like old Siri.
0:53:29It doesn't feel like better Siri.
0:53:31It feels like it feels more laggy, and maybe that's just because it's going through the
0:53:37CarPlay interface.
0:53:38I had some people ask me also, "Could it just be that the Pioneer unit is lousy, not the
0:53:42CarPlay is lousy?"
0:53:43And my understanding is that what's happening is the iPhone is projecting CarPlay onto the
0:53:48the Pioneer unit. So the Pioneer head unit is responsible for perhaps the scrolling being
0:53:55laggy and certainly for the touchscreen not being great and sometimes mistaking scrolls
0:54:01for taps and things like that. But I think everything else is the fault of iOS. Everything
0:54:07else I think is coming from the phone. I had a couple people say to me, "Oh, I found it
0:54:12works a lot better. Third party apps work a lot better when you turn off the phone and
0:54:16then turn it back on. I'm like, okay, one, that's terrible.
0:54:19- As a thing to help, like in the car,
0:54:22while you're driving, it's the worst possible thing.
0:54:25- And two, I tried it and it didn't help.
0:54:27I think it made the iHeartRadio app menu come up
0:54:30the first time, but then it still crashed.
0:54:32And in the video, you get to hear me crash Overcast.
0:54:36I believe while playing ATP, that's extra funny,
0:54:40but certainly it crashes Overcast while I'm using it.
0:54:44and it just sort of sputters to a stop
0:54:46and then goes back to the main screen.
0:54:48- It started to sound all like distorted
0:54:50and then Overcast just like exploded.
0:54:52- Yeah, the third party apps are,
0:54:54I, if it only happened on one of them,
0:54:57I would say, okay, this, you know,
0:54:58Marco or the iHeartRadio people didn't do a very good job
0:55:01with their first iteration of it,
0:55:03but they're both really buggy.
0:55:04So as far as I can tell,
0:55:05the third party apps thing is still a mess.
0:55:07Apple's website lists all of these third party apps
0:55:10that are supported by CarPlay.
0:55:11And I could only find like two or three
0:55:13that actually work on CarPlay.
0:55:15They've got like Beats music.
0:55:16It's on CarPlay.
0:55:17Nope, nope, it's not.
0:55:19It's not.
0:55:20And it makes me think,
0:55:22it makes me think that this is a problem
0:55:24and there's not a lot of scrutiny
0:55:25being put on CarPlay right now
0:55:27so they can get away with it.
0:55:28But it's just not fully baked.
0:55:30I think the third party stuff is a mess.
0:55:31I've asked Marco a couple of times.
0:55:33I sent him some emails saying,
0:55:35"I'm seeing lots of problems with CarPlay
0:55:37and I haven't gotten a response from him.
0:55:38I wonder if that's one of those,
0:55:40you know, can't say something nice,
0:55:42don't say anything at all, but I don't blame him
0:55:45or the iHeartRadio developers.
0:55:46I feel like the third-party stuff is really half-baked
0:55:51like from CarPlay as far as I can tell, it's all unstable.
0:55:55And then the main CarPlay stuff isn't great.
0:55:57Maps is the best one.
0:55:58I do feel like this is a little bit,
0:56:03oh, I should say I didn't wire in the parking brake,
0:56:06which I need to do because the interface
0:56:08is slightly different.
0:56:09That was the while driving interface.
0:56:11there is a more full interface,
0:56:14like a keyboard will come up and stuff if you're parked.
0:56:17But that's wired into the parking brake
0:56:21and you can actually buy something on Amazon
0:56:23that overrides that and that's for people
0:56:24who wanna watch videos while they're driving, I guess,
0:56:26which is very dangerous and don't do that,
0:56:27but you can do that.
0:56:29So I may buy one of those and wire it in
0:56:31just to do what I need to do to test this stuff.
0:56:35But the larger point is that, yeah,
0:56:37the Maps app feels exactly like what I want it to be,
0:56:40which is, oh, this is maps in a dashboard context.
0:56:45That's actually kind of great.
0:56:46I like that a lot.
0:56:47The rest of it, not so much.
0:56:49Like the music app even,
0:56:50it seems like there are no concessions to long lists.
0:56:54You've got this little tiny screen
0:56:56and you can't do the ABCD down the side.
0:57:00You just have a list that you have to scroll through.
0:57:02And like on my Honda Odyssey minivan that we have,
0:57:06that's about four years old,
0:57:08it's got an iPod interface
0:57:09and it's just got a click wheel basically
0:57:12to connect to the iPod,
0:57:14but it's got on its little crappy slow interface,
0:57:16it has this A to Z mode where you,
0:57:18if you have a list of 500 artists
0:57:22'cause you have a device
0:57:24with lots of storage capacity attached,
0:57:26you can go A to Z
0:57:28and basically you can scroll through the letters
0:57:30till you get to the letter where your artist is.
0:57:32And then you click and then it shows you all the artists
0:57:35starting with that letter.
0:57:36And it's a way to jump down in the list
0:57:38even though you don't have the interface for it
0:57:41because you could never scroll through that.
0:57:43There are very few, if any, concessions
0:57:46to that kind of thing in this interface.
0:57:48It just seems really rudimentary.
0:57:50And yeah, I would, I haven't put it in my car
0:57:56and I'm not going to.
0:57:56I've got a Sony Bluetooth stereo in there
0:58:00that I bought a few years ago.
0:58:02And I can, you know, my phone is paired with it
0:58:04and I can pause and press the back button
0:58:07and press the forward button and move around in podcasts,
0:58:09and it's fine.
0:58:11And it will not show me anything
0:58:14'cause it doesn't have a video screen on it,
0:58:16but it will play the audio of my turn-by-turn navigation,
0:58:19and it's good enough.
0:58:20And CarPlay for these expensive units, it's just not ready.
0:58:24I think it's actually good for all concerned
0:58:26that there are only a few devices that support this,
0:58:29and there are very few cars currently that have it,
0:58:31because it doesn't feel like it's a finished product.
0:58:35CarPlay's one thing, the one thing that it is intended to do is to stop distracting you.
0:58:43The idea of it existing is to provide an interface that doesn't distract and allows you to focus
0:58:49and concentrate on driving.
0:58:51So stability and ease of usability needs to be at the fore.
0:58:57And your video shows that that's actually gonna be firm from the truth.
0:59:01Because some of the things that you would want to do, like using the voice memo stuff
0:59:07to send messages, is less distracting than dictating and listening and having it fail.
0:59:14And stability kind of needs to be key.
0:59:16Maybe there shouldn't be third-party apps at all on CarPlay, if this is the case right
0:59:22now.
0:59:23Especially if they're allowing them in one at a time.
0:59:25They should be really scrutinized.
0:59:29What you want is, I mean there definitely need to be third party apps because the Apple
0:59:35apps don't, you want access to different music services and you want access to different
0:59:40audio stuff and you maybe want access to different information like different driving things,
0:59:47right?
0:59:48Like I could see them allowing Waze and Google Maps on and I could see them allowing Beats
0:59:53and Pandora and Rhapsody and all the music services on there like iHeartRadio and podcast
1:00:00players like Overcast. That kind of makes sense. As an Overcast user, I don't want to
1:00:07have to use the podcast app for my podcasts because I don't. And I'm not going to go back
1:00:12to the podcast app just so I can play different podcasts in my car than the ones I'm playing
1:00:17when I'm not in my car using Overcast and I'm not going to abandon Overcast. So having
1:00:21the third-party stuff in there could be good. Major League Baseball is supposed to be one
1:00:25of the partners. Again, it's not actually, at least they're not in the season now, so
1:00:28they have an excuse. But that's one of those things that I've wanted. I've wanted a Major
1:00:32League Baseball display in my car for a long time. I keep thinking that would be a great
1:00:36use because they could have like a scoreboard and you could tap on a game and it would play
1:00:41the audio and maybe put up a little like simplified status of like here's what the score is and
1:00:46here's who's batting, something that is not super distracting
1:00:49but adds some information.
1:00:51And those are good uses of it.
1:00:53But right now, it's interesting too
1:00:55because I have not used Android Auto,
1:00:57but it's fascinating to see that with Android Auto,
1:01:00Google is trying to, it looks like make a more
1:01:05dense set of interface elements
1:01:10than what Apple is using, which is super simplified.
1:01:12and as a user, I like the idea that Google is going in
1:01:17where it's a little more refined.
1:01:21I understand as somebody who wants to not get
1:01:24in a car crash, maybe Apple's approach is better.
1:01:28But it's problematic, let's just say that.
1:01:31I find it funny that this is supposed to be the solution
1:01:33to bad UI from car entertainment infotainment manufacturers
1:01:42and yet here's Apple with something that's kinda bad.
1:01:45That's fascinating to me.
1:01:47I guess the car is a harder problem
1:01:49than maybe they thought it was.
1:01:51- Basically, I think my kind of view on this
1:01:57is Google is better placed than Apple
1:02:00to understand how to develop for hardware
1:02:02they don't control.
1:02:03- Well, I mean, the way Apple is doing it is they are,
1:02:09I mean, they're mandating,
1:02:10Like the CarPlay window is always the same size
1:02:12and there are two approaches,
1:02:14which is touchscreen approach or button-based approach
1:02:17that you can use.
1:02:18And it's gotta have a microphone input
1:02:20and it's gotta have audio output.
1:02:21And so they, it is, I don't think that's the problem.
1:02:25Again, I don't love the touchscreen on this Pioneer unit.
1:02:29It's poor.
1:02:30And using an Apple created interface on a touchscreen
1:02:34that reacts the way it does is a weird experience.
1:02:36And that is something that they're gonna have to learn.
1:02:39and that it may reflect poorly on them.
1:02:42But all the other issues that I'm having seem to stem back to,
1:02:47they stem from Apple's own software
1:02:53and their own decisions about this.
1:02:55And like I said, this is like a stealth product in a way.
1:02:58I think people aren't even talking about it.
1:03:00In fact, probably whoever is working on CarPlay at Apple
1:03:02saw my thing and it's like,
1:03:03"Oh, why are they writing about CarPlay now?
1:03:05Stop, someone's written about CarPlay."
1:03:08(laughing)
1:03:09- There's like an alarm went off somewhere.
1:03:11- 'Cause it's just, you know, it's below the radar.
1:03:13But, you know, I was really excited when Marco talked
1:03:17about how he was building a third party app.
1:03:18It's like, well, that's really interesting.
1:03:19I should get on this.
1:03:20And now I've seen the third party apps.
1:03:21I'm like, oh my God, it's not good.
1:03:23It's not good.
1:03:24So it was fun to do it.
1:03:26I put it off.
1:03:27I got that CarPlay unit in December
1:03:29and I just, I put it off for a while
1:03:31because I was traveling.
1:03:32And also just because the first time I used it,
1:03:34I was like, oh my God, this is awful.
1:03:36And I had to think about it for a while.
1:03:37and I wanted to get some other third party apps
1:03:39and finally I had to do it.
1:03:40So if nothing else, the video will give you an idea
1:03:44of what this thing is without having
1:03:46to actually see it in person.
1:03:47And that's why I did a video,
1:03:49because I feel like even taking pictures of the screen
1:03:52would not do it justice,
1:03:53that you really needed to sort of see
1:03:54how the interactions worked.
1:03:56And I'll do a follow up at some point
1:03:57with if I can find a way to enable the features
1:04:02that you have to have the parking brake on,
1:04:05stopped, you know, when stopped features. If I can figure out how to enable that,
1:04:09and there's something substantial there, I'll try to do an update.
1:04:13I don't want to install it in my car and I also, when GPS apps started to
1:04:19come out for the iPhone, I did a video that I shot in my car driving around and
1:04:23it was so painful to do that that I don't want to make videos in my car
1:04:29if I can help it. So I'd rather have it be sitting on my desk.
1:04:32Podcast is in cars, testing carplay.
1:04:36Exactly. Especially if I had camera people it would be different but
1:04:41you know like I said I shoot most of these videos by myself and so I was
1:04:45trying to figure out how you could lock down a camera somewhere and actually get
1:04:48a picture of the phone doing the thing when you're going over bumps and the
1:04:55cameras are jostling or falling off where you had them tied up and it was
1:04:59yeah it was it was I don't want to do that plus I don't really you know I was
1:05:03really in love with it I would put it in my car because I would think oh it's so
1:05:06cool and I don't want it in my car I just don't I don't want carplay in my
1:05:10car I won't call our desk play okay keep it at that yeah yeah Jason would you
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1:07:34So you'll receive something from the great,
1:07:35incomparable, incorporated empire at a future time.
1:07:39- Wow, I am excited.
1:07:41- Yeah, I know.
1:07:42- So there's been an interesting,
1:07:46I don't know, trend, I don't know about trend,
1:07:50but there's a couple of articles this week about app sales.
1:07:54So the guys at US2Games released a really interesting
1:07:58infographic about what's happened with Monument Valley
1:08:03kind of sales-wise and revenue-wise.
1:08:06And then Marco posted a fantastic piece on his blog
1:08:09about how Overcast has fared in 2014.
1:08:15So I was interested, Jason,
1:08:17'cause I know that you linked to Marco's piece.
1:08:19there may be more to say about Marco's piece in our world than the Monument
1:08:24Valley. However, if you haven't seen the Monument Valley infographic you should
1:08:27because the numbers are staggering to see, sort of download-wise and revenue-wise
1:08:32and also the piracy, which is really interesting and maybe is a topic for
1:08:37another day. But I wonder kind of, Jason, what do you, one, like what do you
1:08:41think about developers releasing this information? Do you think it's helpful?
1:08:44Who is it helpful to? And kind of what is your take on it? I think it's really
1:08:48helpful because it's very hard it's very easy to get the the the dream of being
1:08:55an app developer and just making the guess that oh it's the luxurious life of
1:08:59an app developer and and boy these app developers they really got it made and I
1:09:04think it's good to get these data points and we've seen other indie developers
1:09:07release information too because I think it gives everybody a better sense of
1:09:12if you're going to become an app developer what are you getting yourself
1:09:16yourself into and what are the success stories and what do they look like and
1:09:19what are the hits and what do they look like and what are the
1:09:23misses and what do they look like. I think it's good to have that
1:09:26information out there. I also feel like nobody should feel they
1:09:33need to do it but I'm very happy for the people who decide, like Marco said,
1:09:39nobody wants to talk about money but I'm appreciative that Marco was willing to
1:09:44talk about money because people if nobody talks about it then nobody really
1:09:47has an idea of what's going on and the more disclosure you get the better the
1:09:51clearer a picture you get a lot of the comments I saw about Marcos thing were
1:09:55about the fact that he totaled up how much money Apple has made on overcast
1:09:59and you know we all know that Apple takes 30% right but I saw a lot of
1:10:07of comments that basically said, "Wow, 30% is a lot!"
1:10:14$70,343. Yeah, it's a third of the total. I mean,
1:10:20you think 30%, you're like, "Ah, 30%, whatever." And then you realize that Marco made $164,000
1:10:26on Overcast, and Apple made $70,000. So Overcast made a lot more. Overcast made $240,000. But
1:10:36But Mark only made 160 of that, and Apple made 70 of that, because that's what 30% is.
1:10:42And so that even that, which is this basic thing that we all know, to see it laid out
1:10:46like that was really interesting.
1:10:48But in general, I thought it was also fascinating because I view having you and you and I see
1:10:54some podcast numbers, and we see some statistics about podcast clients.
1:10:59And by all accounts from all the podcasters in our sphere, at least, Overcast has been
1:11:04a big hit.
1:11:05It went rapidly from being non-existent to being the number one or number two podcast
1:11:12client in my feeds.
1:11:14It's number one for everything, really.
1:11:16Yeah.
1:11:17Yeah.
1:11:18It's, it's...
1:11:19With a bullet as well in some instances.
1:11:20I think iTunes, iTunes may be bigger on some of my feeds, but mostly it's Overcast.
1:11:24And you could actually see the other clients go down as Overcast went up.
1:11:28So it was a huge hit.
1:11:30And so by within our little realm, which is a tiny, tiny realm within this larger world
1:11:36of iOS app store.
1:11:37So what it's fascinating to see is that Overcast, which by all accounts is a huge hit in its
1:11:42chosen market, is not throwing off millions and millions of dollars.
1:11:47It's throwing off something that looks like a maybe sustainable business for Marco.
1:11:53As he put it, something that he can do while he's not working for someone else on something
1:12:00I don't care about," is what he said. He can work in his home office, drink his fussy coffee,
1:12:04take a nap after lunch if he wants to, and be around for his family. And that's successful
1:12:09by his definition. And that resonated for me because I'm in a very similar position
1:12:14where I'm not looking to create a media empire where I'm going to build a business and get
1:12:20investment and grow and get millions and millions of dollars. I'm looking to create a sustainable
1:12:27that will allow me to live my life and support my family.
1:12:31And that is, so on one level, I'm really encouraged
1:12:34by Marco's post because he's saying he can do that.
1:12:36On another level though, I look at it and think,
1:12:39this is what dominating your, granted niche product category
1:12:44but still he's dominating that category.
1:12:48And this is what he's making, which suggests to me
1:12:50that iOS podcast apps is a category
1:12:54that only has a couple hundred thousand dollars in it.
1:12:57And that makes me think secondarily,
1:13:00ouch, that's not sustainable
1:13:04for at least an ecosystem of apps, right?
1:13:07It's all those apps that Marco used to link to in Overcast.
1:13:10They can't all be making this.
1:13:11If he's number one and this is what he's making,
1:13:14then none of the others are probably throwing off on iOS
1:13:18something close to that now.
1:13:19And that's, so I'm happy that it's sustainable for Marco,
1:13:24but his app was also a real success.
1:13:26and we see it continuing to be a success.
1:13:29So that, yeah, that gives me some pause
1:13:32because what it says is that if you're not dominating
1:13:35like Marco is, you're not, your app is not going
1:13:39to provide a comfortable living on its own.
1:13:41Maybe you've got other apps and you cobble them together.
1:13:43Maybe you've got some freelance work.
1:13:45However you do it, I think that's the other side of it
1:13:47is that, you know, he's, it's not just,
1:13:51hey, Overcast did okay, yay.
1:13:53I agree that's true.
1:13:55but then I also think, "Hey, on my charts, Overcast dominates."
1:13:59So what we're seeing here is,
1:14:01"It's all okay," is what happens with domination in that category.
1:14:05That's a little bit troublesome to me.
1:14:07But that's what it is.
1:14:08- So, I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree.
1:14:12Which is interesting that we keep going down this route.
1:14:14- All right, let's fight, Myke.
1:14:16- So... - When I see you in London...
1:14:18- Fisticuffs. - Yeah.
1:14:21Overcast is dominant for us because it's the audience that we roll in.
1:14:29And interestingly enough, Upgrade has the lowest percentage of Overcast for us.
1:14:37Interesting.
1:14:38Of all of the shows.
1:14:39Oh, Upgrading and you yourselves are all so iconoclastic.
1:14:44We love you.
1:14:45It is still the majority holder, but it's less.
1:14:47And Apple and iTunes has a bigger cut for this show than any other show that we do.
1:14:53I genuinely think the audience is different and I hope that as we start to move into different
1:14:58areas, we see different things happen.
1:15:02Like the pan addict as well is a lower figure because it's a different world.
1:15:08I don't see this as only a couple hundred thousand dollar industry because if you take
1:15:17a look at what happened at the end of the year, at the end of 2014, there was an uptick
1:15:23for Marco and he calls it the serial bump.
1:15:27So what that tells me is there are people in the world that found out about podcasts
1:15:33and download it overcast, but it also tells me that there is room to grow.
1:15:39Because I expect that whilst Marco is a dominant player for us, in the wider market that is
1:15:47not the case and that Apple is the dominant force.
1:15:53It's interesting as to why that's happening, but if you think, for example, so if cereal
1:16:01Marco has had a million listeners, right, which was that number have been bounded about
1:16:07a lot, but let's just say that that's possible, that they had a million people listen.
1:16:13And Marco is potentially around 200,000 active users.
1:16:18He doesn't really go into too much detail, but he says 200,000 people launched the app
1:16:22and got far enough to create an account.
1:16:23So we'll say that's the say, best case scenario, that's 200,000 people.
1:16:28numbers, do you see what I mean? They're very different. So that says to me that Marco has
1:16:34like 800,000 potential more people to go just for one show and then when you open it up
1:16:38to what the wider audience can be. So it's all just me kind of just thinking as I'm going
1:16:43but like what this tells me is there is a market for Marco to be successful. There is
1:16:48a market for us to be successful as well as what we do in podcasting as a whole and I
1:16:53I see these two things as positives,
1:16:55they're positive trends.
1:16:57And the fact that Marco is continuing to make,
1:17:01on average, like what is it, like $15,000 a month?
1:17:05And there's--
1:17:06- No, that's huge, 'cause my concern was going to be
1:17:08he was going to sell all of his in-app purchases
1:17:11and then no one would ever give him any more money ever.
1:17:13- Yeah, I figured that, I think everybody had that fear
1:17:17for Overcast, was that it was gonna have
1:17:19a barnstormer of a star, and then that was it.
1:17:23but it definitely seems like that's not the case.
1:17:26I mean, and I saw a lot of independent app developers
1:17:28were like, this is good news to see.
1:17:32Can I get your opinion on something?
1:17:35'Cause I see people complain,
1:17:36or not complain, but I see people make this claim,
1:17:40and I wonder what you think about it.
1:17:42Marco's successful, so of course.
1:17:46He's famous, so of course.
1:17:49- Right, that's fine for Marco.
1:17:51- Yeah.
1:17:51Let's see, look everybody's different, Marco has some unique things about who he is.
1:18:00Marco's notoriety and the fact that he's got this wildly successful podcast helps him launch a product.
1:18:11So the numbers at the beginning are those attributable in large part to his notoriety?
1:18:20Sure, it's great marketing platform for him the fact that he talked about the travails of developing overcast on ATP for weeks and weeks
1:18:27It helps it made me it made me want to see it that much more
1:18:32and
1:18:35so
1:18:36That's that that is true and that you know marketing is marketing and Marco's got Marco marketing Marco marketing Marco ting
1:18:43He he's got his own way of doing and he's got his own fan base and and that's good
1:18:49that'll only get you so far. So I think that that trend at the very end of the
1:18:57of the the stats where he's still selling things that's that's the
1:19:02encouraging thing like you said that people who know Marco have got Overcast
1:19:08if they're gonna get it and now it's people who are finding Overcast and yes
1:19:14his initial success helps drive the visibility of that app which helps other
1:19:19people find it. That's true. I think there are things to be learned from Marco and
1:19:26his numbers despite that, despite the fact that he is in some ways unique as a
1:19:33developer. Yeah, so I guess that's my take on it. It's hard for me to listen to
1:19:39"that's fine for Marco" statements without feeling a little bit like it's kind of
1:19:43like sour grapes that somehow he doesn't deserve it or that he, you know, that just keeps coming
1:19:53back to that. It's like, well, he's not one of us, he's famous and he's got this podcast
1:19:58and all that. It's like, well, you know what? He was just a guy when he did build and analyze.
1:20:02He was just some guy. I mean, he is responsible for having a following. So you can't just
1:20:09"Oh well, it doesn't count because Marco's got a following." It's like, yeah, okay, you
1:20:13know what? That's one way to market your stuff is to become a known person. And not everybody
1:20:18is going to be able to do that, not everybody is willing to put themselves out there like
1:20:22that. But Marco has, and he's gotten benefit of it, not just from ATP, but from his visibility
1:20:32leading to people being interested in his other projects. This is the 21st century,
1:20:35kind of stuff that's how that's how it works now. Being an anonymous developer
1:20:40who throws penny into a fountain and hopes that it becomes a hit app is not
1:20:45does not have a great chance of success but if you're somebody who builds not to
1:20:51give back to Kevin Kelly's thousand true fans kind of thing but this is how it
1:20:55works this is this is absolutely a model for how this stuff works and yes even
1:21:00even now Marco's success with Overcast probably has something to do with the
1:21:04kick-start it got from his audience and you know I don't I don't know I don't
1:21:10think that's necessarily a bad thing I do I do think there's a an element of
1:21:13sour grapes I also see the oh well he's got all of that tumblr money so he
1:21:17doesn't even need this money to live and things like that and you know save it
1:21:21for the rest of us I see I see some of that too there's a lot of stuff out
1:21:23there but Marco is you know he's he's well known he's a polarizing figure
1:21:28sometimes he brings it on himself a lot of times he totally doesn't deserve it
1:21:31it, and he gets it anyway. You know, it's complicated, but I would say there are lots
1:21:36of ways that you can market your products, and one of them is by being visible in the
1:21:45world and having people who are interested in what you're doing. And Marko's got that,
1:21:49but that doesn't mean other people couldn't do that too. I mean, Daniel Jalkud has a following.
1:21:54not nearly as big as Marco's, but Daniel and Manton doing their podcasts, that brings,
1:22:02you know, that you're part of the circle. You're a little bit more than a face in the
1:22:08crowd at that point. And I think that is part of, even if it's not intended to be marketing,
1:22:13this will sell me some apps being visible on a podcast. I think that it's still part
1:22:17of the whole, again, this little world we live in, but it's part of that. It's part
1:22:24of the marketing cycle. It makes you more visible to get covered on websites where the
1:22:29people who write the websites know you, but maybe the people who read the websites don't.
1:22:35And yeah, and it goes from there. So it's just, this is how it works today. So I've
1:22:40gotten off on a little bit of a rant here, but I do think it's unfair. I know that, sure,
1:22:44is Marco and not every developer is Marco but at the same time I don't really like the
1:22:48implication there that because Marco is Marco we have nothing to learn from him because I think
1:22:55that's um I think that's bogus. Nobody gives you fame. No. You have to work at that and and if
1:23:04if it helped him to get a bump in the first week well that's that's what he gets for working hard
1:23:09and if he has tumblr money that's what he gets for working hard. Yeah. Like he worked hard and
1:23:14and he made good things.
1:23:15And I'm not saying that other people aren't working hard
1:23:17and making good things,
1:23:18but sometimes you have to work for a long time.
1:23:21- Well, and you can't say he's got a podcast
1:23:23so it's not fair.
1:23:24It's like, well, do you have a podcast?
1:23:26Well, no, I don't like to talk and all that.
1:23:27Do you have other things that you do?
1:23:28Well, no, I don't.
1:23:29I'm not saying everybody who complains about it is like that,
1:23:31but it's like, those all go together.
1:23:33They aren't separate.
1:23:34It's not like this is an Olympic event in programming
1:23:39where only programming is allowed
1:23:40and all other things are not.
1:23:41That's not how it works.
1:23:42That's not how the world works.
1:23:43this is marketing, this is a store,
1:23:45you want to have visibility,
1:23:47you want people to be talking about what you're doing.
1:23:49And you know, as John Siracusa would say,
1:23:52it's necessary but not sufficient.
1:23:54It is, you still have to have a good product,
1:23:56people still have to want it.
1:23:58But it is part of the way you get people
1:24:00to be aware that your product exists,
1:24:02and that's just how it is.
1:24:03And it's not invalidating the work that gets done.
1:24:06- I just look at all this and I see it as positive.
1:24:09No matter where he came from or what he did,
1:24:11like this is positive stuff.
1:24:12Same for Monument Valley as well, I think the market thing is maybe more interesting
1:24:18to this discussion, but they made a lot of money.
1:24:22Yeah, $5.8, $5.9 million in revenue.
1:24:26But they pumped like a million and a half nearly into building it, but it's still an
1:24:32incredible – I mean, it's relative, right?
1:24:35Because – Games do really well on the App Store, folks.
1:24:38Yeah, exactly.
1:24:39But it's all relative, right?
1:24:41That's a huge increase in profit.
1:24:43Like if you put 10 grand into it and you made like 100 grand, you know, it's all relative.
1:24:48So they put a lot of money in, they got a lot of money out.
1:24:51So that's interesting.
1:24:53But I think that you look at stuff like what Marco's doing and I think that sharing this
1:24:59is positive for everyone.
1:25:01It's proving you can do it.
1:25:03And for me, what it proves more than anything else is you need to think about your business
1:25:07model.
1:25:08Marco had a different business model.
1:25:10He had a free app with an in-app purchase and everyone says you shouldn't do it, or
1:25:14everyone said it's gross and it's disgusting.
1:25:16Not about Overcast, but about doing a business model that's like, "Oh, you should respect
1:25:22us and pay up front."
1:25:23And I understand all of that, but what Marco shows is you sometimes need to think about
1:25:27doing things a little bit differently, because I think these graphs and charts would look
1:25:31very different if Overcast was a $5 to entry.
1:25:34Oh, totally.
1:25:35So I think that this is a key to thinking differently.
1:25:36He wouldn't get sampled.
1:25:39He wouldn't get sampled by those people who bought it over Christmas and then paid for
1:25:43it.
1:25:44Or in that chart, because they wouldn't have bought it.
1:25:47They would have just stuck with the free thing.
1:25:48For sure.
1:25:49So you've got to think about these things, and I think that that is a demonstration of
1:25:53that.
1:25:54I say congratulations to him, to be honest, and I think he's done a great job.
1:25:59So shall we round off today's episode with some Ask Upgrade?
1:26:03I think we shall.
1:26:05We actually have a sponsor for our Ask Upgrade segment this week, and that is our friends
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1:27:54Thank you so much.
1:27:55Yay!
1:27:56yay
1:27:58so what do we have in Ask Upgrade this week Mr. Jason? I feel like we're reaching
1:28:02into the mailbag, you know I love mailbaging. Yes it is. And this is like our mailbag.
1:28:06Yes.
1:28:08Yep, there you go. It is, this is our mailbag.
1:28:11Um... it's the smile mailbag.
1:28:13The smile mailbag.
1:28:14Just a mailbag with a really big smile logo on it this week. Yep, that's it. That's exactly it.
1:28:19Uh... listener Javi wrote in
1:28:22to say,
1:28:23this is a good one,
1:28:24wondering why JSNL has me blocked on Twitter?
1:28:30We're approaching Alcott County, guys.
1:28:35The answer is I used Twitter's powerful search feature
1:28:38to find all mentions of listener Javi mentioning me on Twitter and I found no
1:28:42examples of him
1:28:43saying anything that would offend me at all. It doesn't mean he didn't say
1:28:47something and then delete it later.
1:28:48I block lots of people because life's too short and they
1:28:51they get in my timeline saying strange things
1:28:54or they won't leave me alone,
1:28:55or they're telling me, stick to technology
1:28:58or I don't follow you to listen to you tweet about sports.
1:29:01So stop writing about that and stuff like that.
1:29:02And I just have a life's too short to deal with those people.
1:29:06I just block them.
1:29:07Now, listener Havi, I had no idea why I did the searches.
1:29:12I can't find anything.
1:29:13I found over the years that the people
1:29:15who most deserve to be blocked
1:29:17are not asking to be unblocked.
1:29:20I've had a few people like say,
1:29:22"Hey, can you tell Jason to not block me
1:29:24"because he can't see my tweets anymore?"
1:29:26And those people have never been a problem again.
1:29:29I've never had a problem with that.
1:29:31So, listen to Javi, you were unblocked.
1:29:35I don't know why you were blocked.
1:29:36And again, these days they have mute.
1:29:41And so if somebody is not abusive,
1:29:43but is just like saying things that bug me,
1:29:46I can mute them on Twitter
1:29:48and then they can continue to see me,
1:29:49but I just don't see them and I think that's a nice feature.
1:29:51But back in the old days, you know,
1:29:54the block was much more aggressive and I'll block jerks,
1:29:57you know, I'll block awful, awful people.
1:30:00But if I just don't want to see you
1:30:01because you're saying crazy stuff or whatever,
1:30:04or I just saying stuff that I don't want to see
1:30:06because I've got a, you know, I've got other priorities,
1:30:09then maybe I'll mute you instead and then you won't see it.
1:30:12- Takes a lot of me to block someone, but I will do it.
1:30:15I block if people are being, if they insult me,
1:30:19like personally, I've had people that have made
1:30:23really weird jokes that I don't like
1:30:26and if you do that I will block you
1:30:27'cause that's the only way that I,
1:30:30I know this sounds weird,
1:30:31we're going into analog territory now,
1:30:33but it's the only way that I feel like
1:30:34I can get anything back.
1:30:36'Cause I'm not gonna, if you insult me personally,
1:30:37if you insult, 'cause I had somebody insult my appearance
1:30:41once in a picture and I was like, you're going,
1:30:45like you don't, and this sounds so terrible
1:30:48and I apologize already for how big headed
1:30:50this makes me sound,
1:30:51but you don't deserve any entertainment from me.
1:30:54If I could reach in and delete your podcast app,
1:30:56I would do that as well.
1:30:57Because at this point, I don't know why you're here.
1:31:00Like, why are you doing this to me?
1:31:02Like, even if you think that's a funny joke,
1:31:03we are not friends.
1:31:05Like, I don't know you.
1:31:07I mean, even if my, I don't wanna say what you said,
1:31:10but even if my friends said what he said to me,
1:31:13I would be really upset about it.
1:31:15So it's like, it's the only one that I can think
1:31:17that I've blocked for that reason.
1:31:18Otherwise, I report a lot of people for spam.
1:31:22- Sure.
1:31:24- If I see people being aggressive towards someone,
1:31:29I report them for spam.
1:31:30I do that quite a lot.
1:31:32'Cause that blocks as well.
1:31:33But I see why you do it,
1:31:36because I've seen scenarios
1:31:39where people talk to you in a really weird way.
1:31:42And if I had that kind of response,
1:31:44I think I would take that view as well.
1:31:46It's basically just like, you know, this isn't so much just me and Jason because we're so super popular.
1:31:52If people are aggressive to you or upset you, you don't have to see that.
1:31:56And the easiest way to do it is just to get rid of them and block them out of your life.
1:32:00Life's too short and the social networks of the world are not a place where you should feel harassed.
1:32:06And Twitter need to do...
1:32:09This is a whole long thing we could talk hours about.
1:32:12There is so much more that Twitter needs to do and all of their promises have just been
1:32:17ridiculous so far and they are not doing what they need to be doing and the government in
1:32:21this country is trying to push them into doing that.
1:32:25I had a nice conversation with Brianna Wu about this that was not on a podcast but it's
1:32:30the idea that there's no precinct, police precinct for Twitter.
1:32:36Twitter is nobody's beat, Facebook is nobody's beat.
1:32:38So the police are almost incapable of focusing on this kind of thing, which is why we need
1:32:46to rethink attacks and harassment and things like that on the internet.
1:32:52And if there are illegal acts happening, then there needs to be somebody who's patrolling
1:32:57it.
1:32:58And we don't have that concept yet because our structures are decades behind that kind
1:33:02of concept.
1:33:03I have had on our list since episode one, a Twitter episode.
1:33:07we'll get there eventually or maybe it will be the grand crossover between
1:33:11upgrade and analog, I don't know, but there's so much that I use Twitter
1:33:15for and so much I like about it and so much terrible stuff on it too. I mean
1:33:19let's be honest and I block, I'm much quicker to block only because I've got a
1:33:23lot of followers and I attract some people who say things that are
1:33:30that are unfortunate and I, you know, I have no patience for that.
1:33:36I am... and they'll always say like, "Oh, you're gonna block him because you don't
1:33:41agree with him and he's debating you." It's like, no, I don't block people because
1:33:45they're debating me. I block people because they're crazy. I block people
1:33:48because they're rude. I block people because they're not really interested in
1:33:53having a conversation, they just want to, they just want to bug me and just keep
1:34:01needling me and they're not actually having a conversation. It's stuff like
1:34:04that. It's just life's too short. Again, if somebody, this is, there's a guy,
1:34:08Derek Pawazek on Twitter who has this, who I have blocked in the past and
1:34:13unblocked later, and his whole thing is if somebody is, you see on
1:34:18Twitter is is like making you you know making you angry or making you feel bad
1:34:25about yourself or anything that is unpleasant that is making you not want
1:34:29to even use Twitter because it's so unpleasant just block them and move on
1:34:32with your life or mute them I suppose you could do now but just just it likes
1:34:35to again like I said life's too short just move on nobody you don't owe that
1:34:40to anybody like that and I love Twitter and I love interacting with people on
1:34:44Twitter and I do it a lot but there every now and then there's somebody who
1:34:47is acting like really entitled, like why won't you answer my question or is
1:34:51telling me I don't want to hear you, you know, don't write about that, I want you
1:34:56to write about this other thing. It's like I'm not here for your amusement, I'm
1:34:58here for my own amusement and I like having conversations with people here
1:35:02but the point is not that I'm dancing for you, you know, I'm dance monkey dance
1:35:05is not, I'm not gonna do that. So yeah, anyway, it's a funny, it's a funny thing
1:35:12but I do actually like, the one thing that Twitter has done that I like is
1:35:16is this mute feature, which is back on the Macworld forums
1:35:20we used to talk about, there was a feature
1:35:22that some forum packages had that was called
1:35:25Tacky Goes to Coventry.
1:35:26And basically it's the global mute.
1:35:30'Cause if you ban a troll, they get really angry at you
1:35:34and then they come back with a new sock puppet account
1:35:37and they just keep on trolling you.
1:35:38But if you send them to Coventry,
1:35:41if you send them to the cornfield,
1:35:43they continue to rage as long as they want
1:35:46and nobody sees them. It's a global mute. They just, nobody sees their posts. They're
1:35:50there, they see them, they think they're participating, and they're not. And, you know, that Twitter
1:35:56mute is like that a little bit, which is like, that person can just go on and on and on to
1:35:59me all they like, I'm just never gonna see it. And they can follow me, and if they get
1:36:03something out of following me, that's great, but they're not gonna interact with me anymore.
1:36:07And I like that because it, the block is like, you can't see me anymore, which is also bogus
1:36:12because they can just log out and they can see you.
1:36:15Anyway, we'll do a whole Twitter episode.
1:36:17- Yeah.
1:36:18What else do we have?
1:36:21- Listener Gary says, "Why is it that the only apps
1:36:24that crashed on my Mac are Microsoft apps?"
1:36:27#AskUprate.
1:36:31You're not using enough other third-party apps?
1:36:34- And maybe too many Microsoft apps.
1:36:35- And maybe too many Microsoft apps.
1:36:38I have no serious answer here.
1:36:40I have lots of apps that crash and I have Microsoft apps that don't crash.
1:36:44So I really don't see many crashes on OS X.
1:36:48No, I really see more of that on iOS. Yes, yeah, absolutely. Every now and then
1:36:54I'll get one. I've had one with transmit lately that's been crashing that I sent
1:36:59panic an email about and I said why is this crashing?
1:37:02But it's pretty rare that that happens. Twitter app, the
1:37:08official Twitter app on that crashes all the time I should say that one crashes
1:37:13all the time you should block too much yeah that must be it yeah I'm overusing
1:37:18it I've worn it out you're blocking it I retired oh yeah it's true
1:37:22listener Brooks wrote in and said I just filed a feature request with Apple to
1:37:28add a hoi telephone as a trigger fit phrase for Siri Brooks why do you have
1:37:36to ruin everything. Why, you're gonna make us do a new catchphrase. Oh, and then Amazon
1:37:45Echo has some programmable ones and...
1:37:49Alexa.
1:37:50Yeah, I don't... Let's just... Let's keep a Hoy telephone pure, okay? Let's not ruin
1:37:57it by making it a trigger phrase. If that day comes when you can set your own trigger
1:38:03phrase for Siri, then I do expect that many upgradians will do Ahoy telephone.
1:38:09That seems like a next feature to be honest, because there are
1:38:14other, like Amazon does it, and Google does it, you know, it makes sense
1:38:20that Apple will go that way next. Unless they really really believe in the Siri
1:38:25brand, so it's like, sorry, the "mijim
1:38:25brand so it's like sorry the management brand yeah and they really just want
1:38:32people to be saying that and that wouldn't surprise me either to be honest
1:38:35you can say Siri you just can't say ahoy telephone yeah well I think I just said
1:38:41something that will probably trigger Siri sorry about that I wasn't saying it
1:38:45you're running around in a circle we also have @twistofmatt I'm gonna
1:38:55to go over Upgrading and Matt.
1:38:57One thing people don't talk about too much on the shows
1:39:00that I like is jailbreaking.
1:39:02What are your thoughts?
1:39:03- I had a nice conversation with Matt,
1:39:08Upgrading and Matt on Twitter about this last night.
1:39:10And he was not, turns out not really advocating
1:39:12for jailbreaking so much as was curious about it.
1:39:15I'm opposed, there have been times
1:39:17when I think jailbreaking has been very important.
1:39:19In the early days of the iPhone, it was important.
1:39:21That's how all the original third party iPhone apps happened
1:39:24is that developers jail broke their phones
1:39:26and like figured out how to put apps on it,
1:39:29which is totally crazy, but they did it.
1:39:31And then there was a time when the iPad was out
1:39:35for the first year or so you couldn't do video out
1:39:38on the iPad.
1:39:40And we jail broke a bunch of iPads for Mac World Expo
1:39:44so that we could demo iPad things on screen
1:39:48without a camera.
1:39:49I guess maybe it was the second year the iPad was out.
1:39:52there was a jailbreak that let you do video out
1:39:54over the dock connector.
1:39:55And that was huge because up until that point,
1:39:57we were using those little overhead cameras
1:39:59to try to show a picture of what we were,
1:40:02it was terrible to demo things on the iPad.
1:40:05But mostly I don't,
1:40:07I think the platform is robust enough now
1:40:11that I don't think there's any really great reason.
1:40:14I think it adds a lot of instability.
1:40:16I think a lot of the software you can download
1:40:19that are hacks, it's just so tweaky and hacky
1:40:21that most people are not going to get a good experience
1:40:25using it, so I feel like I don't wanna talk about it.
1:40:28If you wanna bring it on yourself,
1:40:29then go ahead and bring it on yourself,
1:40:30but I don't think most people,
1:40:32I don't wanna encourage people to do it,
1:40:33'cause I don't think most people would find much value in it.
1:40:35It causes lots of problems for upgrading to new versions
1:40:39for the benefit of having like crazy,
1:40:42weird, tweaky kind of stuff.
1:40:44And then also, we don't like to talk about it,
1:40:48but the number one reason for jailbreaking
1:40:50is to pirate apps and I don't support that.
1:40:53So, I, you know, if you wanna jailbreak your phone
1:40:56and you got a reason for it, that's great,
1:40:57but I'm not gonna talk about it.
1:40:59- Yep, I agree, I agree.
1:41:02It can become a bit of a mess
1:41:03and it's a whole different world.
1:41:05It's like a whole different thing.
1:41:07It's not even the iOS anymore.
1:41:09- If there was a feature, like tethering,
1:41:12there was a time when you could do something weird
1:41:13and you could get tethering.
1:41:14And there was that time when you could do video
1:41:16out on the iPad.
1:41:17There are moments in the life of iOS
1:41:19where it feels like there's a reason to jailbreak
1:41:21because there's something that Apple hasn't implemented yet
1:41:24that you know the hardware can do,
1:41:26why haven't they implemented it
1:41:27and there's a jailbreak implementation for it.
1:41:29And those come along every now and then,
1:41:31but that's the only reason I've ever jailbroken
1:41:34because the super tweakiness of it,
1:41:37actually listener Matt mentioned this,
1:41:40is that he's seen some of his friends with Android phones
1:41:43tweak their settings to the point of unusability.
1:41:46And I think that happens.
1:41:47I've seen jailbroken iOS devices that are very similar,
1:41:50that are just, you know,
1:41:51I've got all this crazy stuff going on.
1:41:53It's like, well, that's great,
1:41:54but you know, I think most people don't wanna see that.
1:41:57They don't wanna do that.
1:41:58They wanna keep it simple, so.
1:42:01- I mean, another reason people have jailbroken in the past
1:42:03is so they can use the phone in their country as well.
1:42:06And you know, if that's still a thing,
1:42:07then that makes sense to do.
1:42:09- Yeah, unlocking your phone.
1:42:10You've got an old phone
1:42:11and your carrier is not cooperating to unlock it.
1:42:14Totally makes sense.
1:42:15Even if you are, you know, so you're still on a plan,
1:42:18but you're gonna travel overseas
1:42:19and you find a way to unlock your phone
1:42:21so that you can go overseas
1:42:22and not use your carrier's card when you're roaming.
1:42:26I'm totally cool with that.
1:42:28I think there are some good reasons to use it,
1:42:29but they're very specific.
1:42:31And then, you know, again, I feel like when we're talking,
1:42:34the audience we're talking to,
1:42:35even if it's a very technical audience,
1:42:37I feel like even for them, 98% of them, 90,
1:42:41you know, maybe for our audience, it's 95% of them
1:42:44should really not ever jailbreak their device, and for the mass of iOS users, it's 99.9%.
1:42:52So our last Ask upgrade today, Johnny wanted to know if we use the Ahoy! telephone feature
1:43:01on a regular basis. You can say Siri.
1:43:04Okay, I'll say Siri. You just can't say...
1:43:07The other thing. Yeah, say "hey," the "say hey kid."
1:43:11You can't say like bail, you know, what is a bail made of, Siri?
1:43:16Right.
1:43:17On a regular basis, do we use it how, looking for use cases, I think we both use the exact
1:43:22same feature and the only time I ever use Siri, do this on three, two, one.
1:43:29Set a timer for five minutes.
1:43:30Yes, that's all I do.
1:43:32When I'm cooking, I use Siri for timers.
1:43:34It's great.
1:43:35That is it.
1:43:36Yep, me too.
1:43:37Me too.
1:43:39It's great for that because that is a perfect example of something that a voice interface
1:43:44does better than the touch interface because you don't have to open the clock app and go
1:43:47to timer and set the time and all of that and you've got stuff on your hands because
1:43:51you're cooking or whatever.
1:43:52You just say set a timer for five minutes.
1:43:53It's great.
1:43:54I love it.
1:43:56And that is about all I use it for.
1:43:59Yeah.
1:44:00Mr. Snow, I think we did it.
1:44:01I think we didn't kill anybody.
1:44:05We learned a little.
1:44:07We grew a little.
1:44:08it a bit. Yep. Last. And left some topics for the next show which is always good. Yep.
1:44:15I really enjoyed this episode, again, thank you very much as always. Thank you. I think
1:44:19we're on a bit of a, you know, I think we talk about ourselves now, nobody's listening.
1:44:22I think we're on a bit of a roll at the moment. I think we're on a bit of a roll. I'm really,
1:44:27I'm enjoying the show more and more and more every week and I hope that everybody else
1:44:30is too. If you want to find the show notes for this week's episode, point your web browser
1:44:34Relay.fm/upgrade/19. We'd love to get your feedback about the show and topic
1:44:41suggestions and questions and of course all you need to do for that is tweet
1:44:44with the hashtag #AskUpgrade and they're gonna pop up in our lovely little
1:44:48Google document and then maybe you will be a part of the Ask Upgrade section of
1:44:52next week's show. If you want to find us online you can find Jason Ease @JSnell
1:44:57on Twitter @JSNELL and he writes the fantastic six colors .com and I am
1:45:03I'm Myke @imike on Twitter. I am YKE and I am the host of many shows at the glorious Relay FM
1:45:09Of which this show has a lovely home. We'll be back next time with another episode of
1:45:15Upgrade thanks again to our sponsors for this week mail route stamps calm Linda and smile with PDF pen
1:45:232 for iPad and iPhone
1:45:25Until then say goodbye Myke. Oh, goodbye Jason
1:45:28The tables are turned
1:45:32HA HA!
1:45:33[Music]