428: Timery (Taylor's Version)

0:00:00Hello there. What you're getting ready to hear was supposed to be the members section

0:00:05of the show this week, but we were really happy with the conversation, so we decided

0:00:10to put it in the main public episode as well. Thanks. So Myke, you are now #NoTwitter. How's

0:00:18that going? What led to this? I mean, what's my--

0:00:22I mean, do you need to ask?

0:00:25Let me rephrase that. There have been a few things going on with Twitter.

0:00:29you... what was the final straw? I've been wanting to leave Twitter for like three

0:00:37years but just haven't been able to do it, right? Because it's kind of like, "Oh, am I

0:00:43missing too much? Will I be able to do it? Or my friends will still..." whatever, you know, like

0:00:50those kinds of things. But it's just like ultimately hasn't been a net positive in

0:00:55my life for a long time. It's just there are good things about it but there is a

0:01:00combination of like lots of people being angry all the time about everything

0:01:05including things that I do care about and things like I really don't care

0:01:09about but now I've taken on the anger you know and also like can be a pretty

0:01:14negative place at times I don't really feel like I can contribute to Twitter

0:01:18the way that I used to you know like you guys go through this. Federico I think

0:01:23embraces it but it's like any tweet that I send like yeah that could be the rest

0:01:29of my day oh yeah and so like and it's literally anything right like anything

0:01:35of any kind of value to anyone well it would just take over my day and like but

0:01:40you know you can I think like for you too it makes more sense than it does for

0:01:46me right so like one of the things that led to me doing this it was Casey

0:01:50Newton's awesome essay in platformer yeah where he was talking about why he

0:01:55is is kind of like stepping back from Twitter except for just like publishing

0:02:00links and one of the things he said which I definitely works for you too I

0:02:05think Federico you do this more is like I can post funny things or interesting

0:02:10observations on Twitter it grows my audience and then I can share the links

0:02:14to my articles and then people read them right that's just not a thing for me

0:02:19Like, I don't believe at this point in my career, like, me posting like, "Hey, check

0:02:25out this podcast!"

0:02:26And like, it's just like enough people are gonna go listen to it.

0:02:28Like, I just don't really think that happens for me anymore.

0:02:32They're like, "Yeah, we got it.

0:02:33Yeah, we got it, Myke.

0:02:34You host some podcasts."

0:02:36Exactly.

0:02:37But the way you said it is funny.

0:02:40I mean, you can, but you can share those links.

0:02:43can post like a link to an article with a screenshot that has an excerpt right?

0:02:49Yes, yes.

0:02:50I wish I could post an excerpt but like I don't really think at this point that I can

0:02:55have much of a meaningful impact on my work by posting tweets anymore right?

0:03:01So all that kind of stuff has been going on with me for years plus it just like not really

0:03:06being a fun place in a bunch of ways and now it's kind of like a combination of a lot of

0:03:12people that I like to follow are leaving Twitter, a lot of people whose opinions I respect are

0:03:19leaving Twitter, and it just keeps bubbling around in my brain. And the service is just

0:03:25going in ways that just doesn't make sense to me, or it's just really annoying to me,

0:03:32or just fundamentally opposed to what I fundamentally believe in, right? And so I'm just like, whatever.

0:03:39Like for me it's not the Elon thing specifically.

0:03:44I understand that people are leaving Twitter because of what he's saying.

0:03:47I think a lot of the things he's saying is just stuff that he's saying to get people

0:03:53to tweet at him.

0:03:54I don't care what he believes, really.

0:03:56It doesn't make a difference to me if he's a Republican or if he's a Democrat.

0:04:02I don't care about that because people could be that stuff secretly and what difference

0:04:06doesn't make, but it's the actions that they portray that bother me most and I

0:04:11think his actions it's really bad and so I just you know that is like but it's

0:04:16not the reason it's just a reason like all of these things together built up to

0:04:22me wanting to leave like I don't really feel like I get as much out of it as I

0:04:25used to I don't really feel like it's much of a benefit to me professionally

0:04:28anymore plus the service is going in a bunch of terrible ways and the owner of

0:04:32of the company I don't think is doing a very good job and isn't really somebody who I want

0:04:40to support by, you know, like so like one of the things that annoys me right like and

0:04:45look this is just me obviously if you're not in my situation maybe this isn't gonna annoy

0:04:49you whatever right we are all people who are verified on Twitter right for whatever reasons

0:04:54we were verified we were verified. Notable or not. Notable or not and like people like

0:05:02to follow us on Twitter we will have pretty large followings right so like in

0:05:05theory we are good for Twitter right because people want to follow us so they

0:05:10go to Twitter to see what people have to say we're verified because and I think

0:05:15that's important in a way to be like I am actually this person which is me

0:05:19right and that's the same for you guys right we all have online businesses I

0:05:24think it's important that if we're on a service like this and we're contributing

0:05:28to it there is an importance in being like yes we're verified and I think that

0:05:31That is a system that should be available to everyone

0:05:34that you can actually verify yourself and whatever.

0:05:38But the new verification system isn't that, right?

0:05:41It's just like, give us some money and have a phone number.

0:05:44They're gonna get rid of our verification

0:05:45and he wants us to give him money to get it back.

0:05:48And I'm not gonna do that.

0:05:50I'm not doing that.

0:05:51Because that's not the deal here, right?

0:05:54Like you're not gonna extort me.

0:05:56And so again, I have like a ton of reasons,

0:05:59But ultimately, like, I don't really like Twitter,

0:06:03and I was kind of just addicted to it.

0:06:05So, it's time to get rid of it.

0:06:07So, I'm gone, I'm done.

0:06:08I've signed out everywhere, I'm done.

0:06:10- Yeah, might as well be the time for me to share

0:06:13that I think I'm doing the same.

0:06:16Like I-

0:06:17- Hell yeah, join the club, baby.

0:06:18Come on, let's do it.

0:06:19- But unlike you, I am going to use Mastodon,

0:06:24which I think is not something you're interested in.

0:06:27And I think it goes back to what you were saying.

0:06:29I think it's really beneficial to the type of work that I do, you know, making text.

0:06:34And I think text lends itself very well to screenshots, just sharing that.

0:06:38So you're not even going to have like a bot if you do this?

0:06:40Like, you know, like a bot that just posts to your account on Twitter?

0:06:44See, the thing for me is, I really don't feel like I want to contribute anything,

0:06:51not even my links to a platform, a service owned by someone who sympathizes with Nazis.

0:07:00I really don't want to see this is where I'm at right now. I've been thinking about this

0:07:03for the past few days. I haven't tweeted for the past few days. I've been talking about

0:07:08it with John because it's obviously like also a decision that affects our business. And

0:07:12we are working on some other things that should be done soon. But the thing is, I don't really

0:07:18want to contribute content for free to this platform anymore. I am sorry if people who

0:07:24disagree with me and are still using Twitter will be missing my tweets and my links and

0:07:29my stuff. I'll be on other places. I have a site, I have a Mastodon account, I guess

0:07:35I'll use Instagram more. There's ways, and we have Discord, right? There's ways for people

0:07:40to get in touch with me and to follow me. But the thing is, I think it's gross to contribute

0:07:44content to Twitter at the moment. And I think if anything, it's becoming a liability. At

0:07:51least for me, you know, I don't want to take, I don't want to give him any more of my content,

0:07:57any more of my typing characters in a text box every day. It's gross. And the tipping

0:08:04point for me was like reinstating a bunch of accounts that I had no reason to be given

0:08:10a platform on the modern web for common decency reasons.

0:08:18Like I saw Kara Swisher saying about this, which is like she kind of turned my thinking

0:08:21on it, of like, it's like he believes what he believes, whatever it is, we actually don't

0:08:26know. But what he's going for is like Fox News. He's trying to turn to Twitter, Fox

0:08:30News. He wants all these people on the platform to do this stuff, to rile everyone up all

0:08:35the time because it's engagement. And like this is the thing that I've felt like Twitter,

0:08:40algorithm has been doing for years, right, which is like, whether purposefully or not,

0:08:45the more angry people are, the better it is for the service. And he knows this, and is

0:08:50now trying to manufacture it as well. And it's like, this is the exact opposite of what

0:08:55I want to be a part of.

0:08:57Yeah, I don't want to be part of that. If anything, in modern years, you know me, we've

0:09:02been talking about this. I've always have been and always will be a fan of the open

0:09:07and web, there are elements of Mastodon that appeal to me, more so about the underlying

0:09:13tech that the Mastodon service itself and the underlying tech activity pub and all that

0:09:18kind of stuff, web push for notifications, like all of that are technologies that we

0:09:23are looking into for the future of Mac stories. But really, I don't want to be part of that

0:09:28platform anymore. And to all the people who are going to say, so what, you hate free speech?

0:09:33Which is a silly question, but you know, let's play that argument out.

0:09:36- You know what I mean?

0:09:37If that's what it takes.

0:09:38- You know, you see what the problem is.

0:09:40Those people, they think that free speech

0:09:42is like a one way street.

0:09:45And the thing is free speech cuts both ways,

0:09:47because yes, you are free and entitled to your opinions,

0:09:50even though they are, you know,

0:09:52there's a fine difference between an opinion

0:09:54and something stupid that you can be, you know,

0:09:57prosecuted for, but that's a different conversation.

0:10:00You are entitled to share those things

0:10:02because of free speech.

0:10:03I am a free speech person.

0:10:05free speech, I am entitled to not listen to you, and that's free speech. Freedom of speech is not

0:10:11freedom of consequences. Yes. If you say something or do something or enact a policy if you're

0:10:18if you're running a social network that has consequences, like that's those are two different

0:10:22things. So anyways, I don't want to get like too like freshman college dorm room philosophical

0:10:28about that, but I do want to talk a little bit about sort of the logistics of it. So what I've

0:10:34What I'm doing right now, I pulled the plug about three weeks ago, is I'm still signed

0:10:40in to-- You did this so long ago I'd forgotten.

0:10:42Oh yeah, that guy.

0:10:45I am still signed in to Tweetbot with my show accounts and the network account so I can

0:10:51check our mentions.

0:10:52I think I will continue to do that for a while because our audience is still there, at least

0:10:57some of them are.

0:10:59Although I opened Tweetbot on my laptop, actually last night for preparation of the show.

0:11:04The night before the show, I go through our mentions

0:11:06and see if there's any follow-up or feedback I wanna grab.

0:11:08And that was still assigned into my personal account.

0:11:11It's the first time I've seen my timeline in a while,

0:11:14and I was shocked at how quiet it was.

0:11:16There were big gaps in time that used to never be there.

0:11:19I don't even follow that many people.

0:11:21It's about 500 people compared to some

0:11:24who follow thousands.

0:11:25And it was sort of surprising to see how quiet it was.

0:11:30But I'm curious, you guys leaving,

0:11:33it is still partially like a business thing.

0:11:36I mean, Federico, you said you may not even

0:11:38put your links there anymore.

0:11:39Like what are y'all's plans?

0:11:41And I reserve the right, obviously,

0:11:43we all do that this could change,

0:11:45but how are you thinking about that right now

0:11:47in terms of balancing personal use

0:11:49and like what the shows need?

0:11:51- I think for now,

0:11:53I'm pulling the plug on everything on my account.

0:11:56And I think we're still deciding what we wanna do

0:11:59in terms of the bot that automatically pushes

0:12:02our new posts from MacStories.net to the Twitter account for MacStories.

0:12:10We're still deciding what to do there, but otherwise we are going all in on Mastodon

0:12:14for now, and we're setting up a few things to...

0:12:18You know me, I like to control my stuff, and it's not ready yet, but you'll see.

0:12:23But yes, we are going all in on that.

0:12:25In the meantime, just because I fundamentally believe in the format, I think it's useful

0:12:29for us to have this type of platform, right,

0:12:33where you can post status updates and people can reply

0:12:37and can bookmark them and can click links.

0:12:39I think it's useful for us.

0:12:41And otherwise, nothing else really.

0:12:45We're gonna use, we have RSS, we have Discord,

0:12:47we're gonna use Mastodon.

0:12:49We're getting great engagement there.

0:12:50Like this is why I started this experiment a few weeks back

0:12:53and I have noticed, especially in the past couple of weeks,

0:12:57that I'm getting a lot more just conversations going

0:13:00and interactions on Mastodon than on Twitter.

0:13:03And that's because our community, I think,

0:13:05has progressively moved from Twitter

0:13:07to other instances on Mastodon.

0:13:10I don't know if it's necessarily the future.

0:13:14Maybe for what we do,

0:13:15definitely not for the public at large.

0:13:18I think we're gonna get a,

0:13:21it's gonna be weird for a couple of years

0:13:23in terms of like what's the next Twitter,

0:13:26Assuming that things continue to evolve down this path for Twitter, it's too soon to tell

0:13:33at the moment.

0:13:34Like, will we ever come back to Twitter if, say, Twitter changes hands?

0:13:38Let's say that Automattic acquires Twitter because Elon gets bored and he's like, "Well,

0:13:42I don't know.

0:13:43I want to sell it now."

0:13:44And a really reputable company acquires Twitter and is committed to making Twitter healthy

0:13:50again.

0:13:51I don't know what can happen.

0:13:53I cannot make predictions, which is why I'm not deleting my account.

0:13:57But yeah, in the meantime, you will not find us there.

0:14:01And if you want to find us someplace else, subscribe to RSS or find us on Mastodon.

0:14:06That's the strategy.

0:14:09I would prefer to just not look at all.

0:14:12I'm going to, for the time being, check some stuff, maybe for, like you say,

0:14:17a check show accounts or whatever.

0:14:19But it's easy to get sucked in.

0:14:21I, we're hopefully, we're trying also to work on something to collect short follow-up in a new way

0:14:29and I think maybe the only account that I will post anything from is the Cortex account like when

0:14:34there's new episodes. I don't know if I might just set up a bot to do that. I'm gonna, all my show

0:14:40accounts that have like bots that post them and just gonna keep those going. I think Jason will

0:14:45probably keep tweeting from the upgrade account because he's been doing that now since he took

0:14:49took over the posting of the show.

0:14:52So, I don't have a big plan there.

0:14:56To be honest, I hadn't even really thought about

0:14:58checking for follow-up on Twitter.

0:15:00I guess I probably might wanna do that.

0:15:03To be honest, we get a lot of it in the Discord now,

0:15:05which is great, and we're working on ways

0:15:07to try and make more free and open, easy ways

0:15:11to send us short stuff.

0:15:13'Cause what I don't want is 100 emails a week now

0:15:16from a follow-up.

0:15:18I don't want that.

0:15:18That'd be a much, that'd be a terrible impact on my life.

0:15:23- Yeah, yeah, we're looking at some ways on the website

0:15:25to make basically private comments on,

0:15:28that you can tie to an episode.

0:15:30So you hit a button, fill out a little form, we get it,

0:15:32and then can deal with it as regular feedback.

0:15:35So for me, like my shows, "5/12," "Relay,"

0:15:40they're all still basically auto-tweeting.

0:15:42I also set up "Relay" and "5/12" on Mastodon

0:15:46through Zapier, there's not a lot of great integrations

0:15:49into Macedon currently.

0:15:51You can use webhooks, so I just wrote a little thing,

0:15:53like look at the RSS feed

0:15:54and then post the title and the link.

0:15:56I've got a personal Macedon account

0:15:59and I've poked at it a couple of times

0:16:01and I don't think I'm gonna be using it very much.

0:16:05I could see it using for like

0:16:07a couple of big announcements a year,

0:16:08like, hey, I have a Kickstarter

0:16:10or the St. Jude fundraiser is starting,

0:16:13but in terms of day to day,

0:16:15Like the only things I'm signed into in the ivory beta are 512 and relay again

0:16:20Just so I can check the mentions and see if you know

0:16:23We have a typo or there's some sort of problem or or that sort of thing. I do not plan on bringing my shows

0:16:29Over to have like individual Mastodon accounts. I think that day is this not not going that only that's gonna happen

0:16:36I don't think it makes much sense. But

0:16:38my overall feeling is that

0:16:42my days on like social media are basically over like I've

0:16:46Done this with Twitter. I still have my account for the same reason Federico does like I'm not gonna close it down

0:16:51But it's just gonna be there

0:16:54I deleted all the tweets and just have two tweets explaining that why I'm not there, you know that I'm not there anymore and then

0:16:59that's that's about it and

0:17:02The last few weeks without it have been both a lot harder than I expected

0:17:07But also a lot better

0:17:10I don't, the first couple of days were really weird.

0:17:13I, like a lot of people, use Twitter

0:17:15to fill in the little gaps, you know, in my days.

0:17:20And without it, it feels a bit weird,

0:17:22but now a few weeks into it,

0:17:23I'm really at a point where I honestly don't miss it.

0:17:27- Yeah, yeah.

0:17:28I think we are, I think in conclusion,

0:17:30we can say that we are fortunate enough

0:17:33to be able to say that if you are part of the audience,

0:17:36you can find us where we work.

0:17:40Like the work is where you can find us.

0:17:43- I was pretty proud of my tweet, by the way.

0:17:45The main reason I did it yesterday is I had like the tweet,

0:17:48they end up the tweet with me,

0:17:49like just saying like, I'm gone now is,

0:17:51you can find me wherever you find your podcasts, like,

0:17:54which is that line that's used forever.

0:17:55And that's true, but like that is part of it for me, right?

0:17:58- Yeah.

0:17:59- 'Cause I noticed this for a long time.

0:18:00If I say, hey, I've got this thing,

0:18:02come check it out and put it on Twitter

0:18:04and I get a response, you know,

0:18:05but if I talk about it on a show, it's much larger,

0:18:08because this is where my audience is.

0:18:10They listen to my shows.

0:18:12So why do I, I don't wanna keep wasting my time anymore

0:18:17on something that I don't enjoy,

0:18:20and that I don't even think I can give people

0:18:23a benefit for anymore.

0:18:25There isn't any benefit to following me on Twitter.

0:18:26You don't get anything from me.

0:18:29So just listen to my shows instead,

0:18:31and that's the best you're gonna get.

0:18:33- Yeah, and we're way past the point

0:18:35in sort of our collective careers,

0:18:37because I mean, our careers are all

0:18:40intimately linked with each other.

0:18:41We're at a point now where like those early relationships,

0:18:45like those early things that honestly we've benefited

0:18:49from being kind of the right time at the right place,

0:18:51like that's completely gone from Twitter.

0:18:54And it's actually been gone for a long time,

0:18:56but now it's very evident and visible that it's gone.

0:19:01I think I'll just speak for me.

0:19:03I think I've been in denial about this day of Twitter,

0:19:05probably for years, probably since 2016 or so.

0:19:09And it's been just the avalanche of disasters

0:19:14that have struck it since Elon bought it

0:19:18that sort of sealed it for me.

0:19:19But I think if I was really honest,

0:19:22this has been something that I've needed to do

0:19:24for a long time.

0:19:26And I get it, like, it's not,

0:19:29everyone's different on this, right?

0:19:30Like we talked about it on an MPU that comes out on Sunday,

0:19:33And like, we all have different emotions

0:19:35about these websites and that's fine.

0:19:38Like if you're, if you wanna stay,

0:19:40like I'm not here to pass judgment on you,

0:19:42hopefully you're not passing judgment on us for leaving.

0:19:44Like I know for a lot of people,

0:19:46Twitter is to them what it used to be to us.

0:19:50Like it's a place to have your work discovered

0:19:52and hear diverse voices and have your voice be heard.

0:19:56Like I get all that and all that stuff is good and important

0:19:59but just for where I think we are as individuals,

0:20:02it doesn't make sense anymore.

0:20:03And I would just hope for some like grace and all of that

0:20:06is 'cause we all have to figure this out

0:20:08because it's been a big part of our lives

0:20:10all for a long time.

0:20:11- I mean, you know, like one of the things

0:20:13that's complicated for me emotionally

0:20:15is I genuinely owe my entire career to Twitter.

0:20:18Like the people that I met, like you guys

0:20:21and being able to kind of get my work out back in the day

0:20:24when like tech podcasting was new

0:20:26and people would pay attention and that kind of stuff, right?

0:20:29Like that like all this new podcasts

0:20:30such and such persons on this show, and it helped me build up the network that I have now.

0:20:35And so it's like a really weird thing to let go of it, but it just isn't for me the same anymore.

0:20:42And you may be out there having the exact same experience, but it's just different for me.

0:20:47As Steven said, we're all different people and we've come from different places.

0:20:50And that's what I, it's a really great way of like, my thing about Mastodon, right?

0:20:55Like I understand that people are having a great time on Mastodon right now,

0:20:59I see like the spectrum and what you two are doing right where Steven you are gonna use it

0:21:03Every now and again and Federico you want to go home on it like and I recommend people do whatever they want for me

0:21:09Personally, like I just want to try to live a life where this kind of social media is completely 100% gone

0:21:16Yeah, and see what that's like. So I have no intention of joining any service. Mm-hmm

0:21:21I may in the future hell I might even come back to Twitter in a year. Like I don't know

0:21:26I just know where I am right now, which is like, I don't want, I want to, I have lived since

0:21:322014 or whatever, right? Like earlier than that, what, 2000, when did we join Twitter?

0:21:38I joined in '07. So I joined in '07.

0:21:41In '09 over here.

0:21:42And I know I took it some time away. So let's say like the last 12 years

0:21:46this has been a part of my life every single day and I want to try

0:21:52Not that I see what that's about, you know

0:21:55One I think element to that that's that's important is like is leaving the door open to the future

0:22:02but the other thing that I think of it, I'm not trying to like

0:22:05randomly bodies Mastodon parade here, but

0:22:08Mastodon has the same inherent risks that

0:22:13Twitter does the assets federated. So if like a server full of Nazis comes along you can just

0:22:19de-federate them and they're gone.

0:22:21But ultimately every single social media platform ends in this conversation we're having now. Because of the

0:22:29business incentives of these companies,

0:22:32they promote and craft their apps for engagement. And what that really means is

0:22:39argument. I mean it is the reason none of us are on Facebook, right? Like

0:22:45Facebook did this and you know, maybe potentially damaged democracy forever and

0:22:50Twitter is

0:22:53Has this alignment as well now?

0:22:55With mastodon, you know, yeah, like you can be a patreon like back the server and stuff

0:23:00But ultimately if it reaches a critical mass, which I would argue it has not

0:23:04Then it is going to eventually have these issues and maybe it's not because it's ad-driven

0:23:11maybe it's just because you have so many people there and

0:23:15It's inevitable when you have that many people in a room that things will happen. I just I've been on the internet too long

0:23:22to be super hopeful that Macedon can be like the one savior of social media and

0:23:28Again, I'm not trying to anybody's parade. I'm just not very optimistic about it that it's going to be something that really

0:23:35Takes off in a way and then doesn't lead to this down the road because it always leads to this down the road

0:23:43Yeah, I feel like the technological aspect is interesting in that, like, as long as it's all open source,

0:23:52it's like basically a different spin on RSS, which is why I think we are looking into it.

0:23:58Not just in terms of like, oh, we really need to have a Twitter replacement, but because

0:24:03the foundation behind it we can use in a bunch of different ways in the future.

0:24:08I feel like it's fun to be on Mastodon itself right now because it's very reminiscent of early Twitter.

0:24:16You know, when you have basically tech people be early adopters and it's fun to see like the

0:24:23conversations right now about, you know, you join Mastodon and part of the conversation is about

0:24:29Mastodon itself, which is really reminiscent of early days Twitter when everybody was talking

0:24:34about, you know, I remember, for example, when Twitter launched native retweets, like

0:24:40they didn't used to be a feature. And now, exactly. And now everybody like a bunch, not

0:24:47everybody, but a lot of people that I follow on Mastodon are talking about whether or not

0:24:52Mastodon should have quote posts, like you can quote tweet on Twitter. And there's like

0:24:58this whole thing, this whole conversation about should we replicate the behavior and

0:25:02the design of Twitter for quoting a post by somebody else

0:25:06or not.

0:25:07The entire scene is very reminiscent of that era

0:25:10of 2010 Twitter.

0:25:12Otherwise, I just feel like I want

0:25:16to keep having this sort of avenue in terms of I

0:25:20can have a stream of short posts where I can share quick things

0:25:26about my work or a picture of something I'm listening to

0:25:30or a photo of my dog or a stupid thing I just thought of.

0:25:34I think for me, it's a fun thing to have in my life.

0:25:39But given the kind of person I've become

0:25:43and given my line of work,

0:25:45I think it's actually preferable

0:25:46if I use something like Mastodon where I own my content

0:25:49and I can spin up my own server

0:25:51and I fully control the thing with the technology

0:25:54that in the future I can reuse to my advantage

0:25:57in a future version of Mac Stories.

0:25:59Essentially, and I mean, we've been talking about this

0:26:02in the open, it's no secret.

0:26:04I think one of the things we are considering

0:26:06for the future of Max Stories is having the ability

0:26:11to more quickly and easily share

0:26:16a work-related short posts, you know?

0:26:20That can be on my website,

0:26:23but that can also be shared to other channels.

0:26:26And right now, the design of Max Stories

0:26:28doesn't really lend itself well to that type of status update.

0:26:32I mean, I could write a post that it's like 50 words

0:26:37and be like, iOS 17 beta 2 is out,

0:26:41but it will look stupid on the front page.

0:26:43Yeah, I've got the same problem.

0:26:44Well, you and I have talked about this.

0:26:46Like, 512's design also doesn't work for that.

0:26:49We talked about this.

0:26:50So what we're saying is the Verge was right.

0:26:52Yes, actually.

0:26:53I think their redesign is super smart.

0:26:55I love their website so much.

0:26:57and they would, they, I don't know how they did it,

0:27:00but they hit on that short post thing.

0:27:03Just like that story stream that they have.

0:27:05- I disagree with the fact that they have comments on there.

0:27:10- Yeah, but they're way bigger than we are.

0:27:11- But good call, but good call on the short posts.

0:27:15Like that's, you got to hand it to them.

0:27:19It was a great idea.

0:27:20Especially given how things have gone with Twitter.

0:27:24So, and I think Nilay is also gone from Twitter, by the way.

0:27:28- Yeah, he was one of the, it was like,

0:27:30Nilay and Casey Newton both leave in on the same day.

0:27:34It like really put something in my brain.

0:27:36And I was just like, these are two people

0:27:38who I really look up to and really respect.

0:27:41And, you know, I've been following both

0:27:43of their thought processes, like on the Vergecast

0:27:46and in Platformer, and it was just like,

0:27:49I kind of couldn't, I couldn't argue,

0:27:52I cannot argue with any of the things that they're saying.

0:27:55And so it's just like, if I can't make an argument,

0:27:57then why am I still here?

0:28:00I'm looking for cool RSS feeds.

0:28:03If people have cool RSS feeds, send them to me.

0:28:06How are you gonna send them to me?

0:28:07Well, that's for you to work out.

0:28:09You know what I mean?

0:28:09- Very early 2000s energy from Myke over here.

0:28:14- Yeah.

0:28:15- Looking for cool blogs.

0:28:16- I really am looking for the cool blogs.

0:28:19It's kind of funny really because a couple of episodes ago on Cortex,

0:28:24Gray said this and I made fun of him.

0:28:26You were making fun of Gray. You were making fun of him.

0:28:29And now I now want the cool blogs.

0:28:33I mean, because if you think about it really, Gray was ahead of all of us, right?

0:28:36Well, he tends to be.

0:28:37He embraced this a long time ago.

0:28:40I want some cool blogs.

0:28:41So if you can send me the cool blogs, because really it's like,

0:28:44I need to make sure that I'm keeping up to date with tech news and Apple news and opinions

0:28:53on it. The news part, following the news part, no problem, right? Mac stories, Mac rumors,

0:28:599 to 5 Mac, I'm all good. I've got it covered. But what I'm not getting there or what I worry

0:29:04I won't get there is the little interesting things that people say on Twitter. You know

0:29:08what I mean? So I don't know if it's an issue for me to miss it. I don't know if I'm going

0:29:14miss it, I'll find out. But, you know, if you've got the cool blogs, give me the cool blogs.

0:29:19I should just export my things from Feedbin and just give it to you. I've been working on this.

0:29:25Yes, both of you. If you could just maybe screenshot or just give me your OPML files,

0:29:32that will be good.

0:29:33I'm sending it to you right now because, incidentally, I just migrated from

0:29:37Inoreader to Feedbin again last night, and I have my opml file right here.

0:29:44Give me the opml files, although I'm worried that I'm accidentally going to add them in

0:29:48to my feeds, but I can just deal with that.

0:29:50I'm sending it here.

0:29:52And then I can do whatever I want.

0:29:53Okay, here you go.

0:29:54Thank you.

0:29:55Inoreader feeds there.

0:29:57It's an XML file, but it's structured for what you need.

0:30:02Thank you.

0:30:03[MUSIC]

0:30:11>> Oh, sorry, it was me.

0:30:12[LAUGHTER]

0:30:13>> Every time.

0:30:14>> I'm never ready for this.

0:30:16It happens like once every three weeks,

0:30:18and I was away for a long time.

0:30:19I don't know. All right.

0:30:20From Relay FM, this is Connected Episode 428.

0:30:24Today's show is brought to you by Trade Coffee,

0:30:26Capital One, and Bombas.

0:30:28My name is Myke Hurley,

0:30:29and I'm joined by Federico Vittucci.

0:30:31>> Hello, Myke. I can't, I know it's

0:30:32really you if you're not on Twitter anymore.

0:30:35It's a very good point.

0:30:36It's a very good point.

0:30:37Do I have to like, what is that thing?

0:30:39Like that secret key thing?

0:30:42How do you verify yourself on a podcast?

0:30:45Because I think you can.

0:30:46The AI's coming for us.

0:30:48They're going to pretend to be me,

0:30:49and then no one's ever going to know.

0:30:51But you remember that thing?

0:30:52People would be like, they post like a code in their bio,

0:30:56and then that somehow verified them?

0:30:58I need to do one of those.

0:31:00Basically, at the start of every episode,

0:31:01I'm going to give you half of an encryption key.

0:31:04Yeah.

0:31:05#CodeInBio.

0:31:06You haven't been introduced yet.

0:31:07Hold on, Steven.

0:31:08You didn't.

0:31:09Yeah, you got to wait.

0:31:10So yeah, that's what I'm going to do now.

0:31:11I'm going to give, at the beginning of every episode, I will start with a series of 16 numbers.

0:31:16All the listeners will have the other 16 numbers and if they match, then it's me.

0:31:20This is like when you send an email with that fancy system, like the PGP key.

0:31:24What's it called?

0:31:25Oh, PGP key.

0:31:26Yeah.

0:31:27It's like, yeah.

0:31:28It's also my pleasure to introduce our other co-host, Mr. Steven Hackett.

0:31:32Hello, Steven.

0:31:33Hello, boys.

0:31:34Yes.

0:31:35Hi.

0:31:36How are you?

0:31:37I am good.

0:31:38It's pouring down rain outside, which is... would be more fun, but it's rained every day

0:31:41for the last, like, 10 days, and I'm kind of over it.

0:31:45We have some real-time... is it follow-up?

0:31:50How can we have real-time follow-up if we've just started the show?

0:31:54What are we following up to?

0:31:56Well, it's pre-follow-up in the sense that before we talk about the topic one that we

0:32:03have in the document, which is about iOS 16.2. So this is like I am having a sort of a topic

0:32:11preamble, essentially iOS 16.3 beta one is coming today.

0:32:16Oh my God.

0:32:18Yeah.

0:32:19What?

0:32:20Wow. 10 days before Christmas, Apple has no chill.

0:32:25How could it have in it that it needs to be a whole new point release?

0:32:28Stage Manager changes, baby!

0:32:30No, I don't know.

0:32:31I don't know.

0:32:32Like, why can't it be 16.2.1?

0:32:34Apple Music Classical!

0:32:36Come on.

0:32:37Oh, I guess it could.

0:32:38I mean, it could.

0:32:39I mean, it could.

0:32:40Man, they just got to...

0:32:42They're just doing so much over there.

0:32:44So let's talk about 16.2, which is a huge release, right?

0:32:49Like so much stuff in iOS 16.2.

0:32:52I read your article, Federico, on Stage Manager.

0:32:56Thank you.

0:32:57It kind of feels like what I took away from it, high level,

0:33:00is the concept of Stage Manager, good.

0:33:03Implementation, still bad.

0:33:05Yes, that's the takeaway from the story.

0:33:09Yes, it's that.

0:33:11I mean, Windows on an external display, great.

0:33:15I'm using them right now.

0:33:16I'm looking at them right now.

0:33:18Great idea.

0:33:19makes your iPad feel like a proper computer that you can now plug into a display and have

0:33:25additional windows on the display. Implementation is still bad, and it's especially silly.

0:33:29We were talking about the problems of Stage Manager before on the iPad's display,

0:33:36and how Stage Manager sort of forces you to have these preset sizes and it rearranges windows for

0:33:42you, and let me tell you, those choices are even more apparent when you plug it into a 5K display.

0:33:49and you end up, like you have two windows on screen

0:33:53and you want to place them for whatever reason,

0:33:56because maybe you just like them

0:33:57and you want to place one on the left

0:33:59and one all the way to the right

0:34:00and the stage manager doesn't let you,

0:34:03well, that just feels silly

0:34:05when you're using an external display.

0:34:07- Because you have the space, right?

0:34:09Like there's so much space,

0:34:10you don't need the system to arrange it for you.

0:34:13- Exactly, exactly.

0:34:14And then there's also the performance issues,

0:34:19Like, I have been using this setup for the past two weeks and I really love it ever since

0:34:23I went all in with the Mac Mini and Universal Control.

0:34:28I really love this system, but I've got to be honest, Stage Manager crashes at least

0:34:32once a day on my iPad.

0:34:34Like I'm doing something and at least once a day I see the black screen with the spinner

0:34:38in the middle and everything resets.

0:34:41Like, that still happens.

0:34:43It appears that iOS 16.3 beta 1 is out, as I am talking right now.

0:34:50But yeah, we'll see what Apple has in store for Stage Manager.

0:34:55When it comes to external display integration, it's what we got this summer before it was

0:35:02pulled, but now thankfully it's in much better shape than before.

0:35:08crashing once a day or so for me. Earlier this year it used to crash like every 10 minutes

0:35:16or so. So it's much better than that. If you tried it months ago and never tried it again,

0:35:22do it. But otherwise, you know, don't expect major changes from Stage Manager yet.

0:35:32Something that I took away from your article which really boggled my mind and like I think

0:35:37I think I've understood it correctly from how you put it in the piece, is that there

0:35:43is like a fundamental difference between the way it handles multiple screens to how a Mac

0:35:48handles multiple screens.

0:35:50So like, if you have the Notes app on the iPad screen and you have like Safari on the

0:35:58external display and you go down to the dock and tap the Notes app icon, it puts the Notes

0:36:04app on the external display, right?

0:36:07Which like on the Mac if you have that it just makes the app active on the screen that it's on.

0:36:14That is wild to me that it does that.

0:36:17Here it moves it.

0:36:18Yeah I find that wild because it's like what's the point in having the iPad?

0:36:23Like why even have... why did they make it that you have to have the iPad screen open to use this

0:36:30if they don't treat the iPad screen as a like the main screen?

0:36:35It's like weird to me. It's very weird to me.

0:36:37Yeah, well, they made this decision of the act of clicking an icon means making sure

0:36:46that you see the app.

0:36:50It's this very conscious decision that they made because it also works the same way for

0:36:54Spotlight.

0:36:55So if you open Spotlight on an external display and you select Notes, and Notes is actually

0:37:00on the iPad, you're not going to activate it on the iPad, you're going to activate it

0:37:05and move it to the external display. So like, I think the underlying design decision is

0:37:12on iPadOS when you click an icon you need to see the app for it. It's different from

0:37:18the Mac.

0:37:19And they've chosen the external display as the primary display, right?

0:37:25No, not always. What do you mean, primary?

0:37:27Well like, if you click an icon, is it always going to move it to the external display?

0:37:32No, it's always gonna move to the most recently act display you're on.

0:37:38That's weird to me. That's very weird to me.

0:37:40Display where the pointer is.

0:37:43Sure, I see that, right? Like I see why you made that decision.

0:37:48But I also don't know why, if the decision had already been made on the Mac,

0:37:53like if this never existed, right?

0:37:56Like if the Mac didn't exist, I would understand why you made this decision.

0:38:01But it's weird to me that you make that decision knowing how the other system works and is fine.

0:38:08Yeah, interesting. It's just an interesting thing.

0:38:10I was like, "Oh, I don't think I would like that."

0:38:13Because moving from the Mac and moving to the iPad and Mac frequently,

0:38:19if I used it this way, I would break my brain a bit, I think.

0:38:23I wanted to echo your disappointment for there being no changes to the app strip.

0:38:29Because there's no changes on the Mac either.

0:38:32They would add more functionality to it, right?

0:38:34That you could actually say, as I said before, click the icons and just bring them to the

0:38:40space, right?

0:38:41But no, none of that kind of stuff.

0:38:44But at least it's working mostly and better and they've released all of the things that

0:38:48they said they were going to release and now we can just hope that they will do more of

0:38:53it.

0:38:54Let's see with this beta.

0:38:55I'm optimistic.

0:38:56I choose to be optimistic.

0:38:57is the energy I'm bringing into this beta. I'm optimistic about it.

0:39:01Are we gonna find out before the end of this episode, do you think?

0:39:04No, he's recording on his Mac through his iPad. He can't get his iPad anymore live.

0:39:10Exactly. So, well, technically I can. I can update this iPad.

0:39:17You just can't see anything for a while.

0:39:18I just can't see anything for a while, but I can also just take this Thunderbolt cable,

0:39:23get into the Mac Mini and that's done, you know, so I probably will.

0:39:29Yeah, although my internet is slow.

0:39:32It says about an hour remaining.

0:39:34I don't think it'll do it in time.

0:39:3716.2 and Mac OS 13.1 also brings with it Freeform, which Jon had an article about, Jason had

0:39:45an article about.

0:39:46I'm deep in it for a future MPU episode.

0:39:50And even though these sort of infinite canvas, like sketch, draw, image type apps, they don't

0:39:57really jive with the way that I work normally.

0:40:00Freeform seems really well done and pretty robust for a 1.0.

0:40:07I really like what they've done here.

0:40:10I think it's interesting that they are combining, like you can see there's the DNA of Notes,

0:40:15the DNA of iWork apps in free form. You can see all these different influences in the app.

0:40:22It's going to be interesting to see how people use it, how people react to it. I think Apple,

0:40:30when they announced it, they showed off all the collaborative use cases, where I actually think

0:40:38there's plenty of sort of single user use cases as well. You can just use it for yourself if you

0:40:45you want to have like a richer take on a mind map, basically, that supports multiple types

0:40:51of input and data.

0:40:54It's still odd, I think Jason wrote about this on Six Colors, it's still odd in that

0:40:58sometimes the gestures, they do one thing and other times they do something else, like

0:41:03sometimes you want to drag and drop an object and sometimes it works and other times you're

0:41:08duplicating the object.

0:41:09John took this deep dive because of course he did. He tried all the file types he could think of

0:41:16and tried to drop all these embedded files into a board on Freeform and most of them,

0:41:23impressively, most of them they worked with inline previews, others they did not, and so maybe Apple

0:41:29has some work to do there. I think it's very fun though. I'd be curious to see how this evolves

0:41:37alongside Notes in the future, because we have gotten used to Notes getting these annual updates,

0:41:45especially in recent years. You can see Notes reminders really on track for these annual updates.

0:41:51What's going to happen to Freeform? Is it going to be like a one-off? Is it the new clips?

0:41:55Are we going to get updates every so often? Or is Apple behind Freeform as much as they are

0:42:03with notes and reminders, I don't know. Do they need to? Probably not.

0:42:07Freeform is one of those apps where I feel like I wish I had a reason to use it but I'm not sure

0:42:13that I have a reason to use it. Like I have a couple of things I think I could do with it

0:42:17but like I don't know if I will. Like one of them was, you know, in John's piece he had a freeform

0:42:23canvas board, whatever they're called, where he was planning out some home automation stuff and

0:42:28And this was the thing that I used my Apple Pencil for in the Notes app to draw out some

0:42:33diagrams when I was buying some stuff for the house.

0:42:36And I would have used Freeform for this if it was available.

0:42:39And similarly for product design kind of stuff, I could imagine using it.

0:42:43You could put some images that you've drawn, some things you're bringing in, and create

0:42:46almost like a mood board kind of thing.

0:42:49So maybe I could imagine myself using it for that, but I haven't yet, and I don't know

0:42:53if I will.

0:42:54It's a cool application, but just my...

0:42:57I wonder who is gonna use this a lot.

0:43:00That's what I'm wondering about.

0:43:02Or is it just one of those things

0:43:03that it demos really well

0:43:04and you can have a fun time in it when you're in it?

0:43:06But will you rely on it the same way

0:43:08you rely on notes and reminders?

0:43:10That I just, I'm not sure about.

0:43:13- Maybe it's gonna be more like an iWork app

0:43:16that's gonna get a bunch of features every so often

0:43:18with updates, but not like-- - But that makes sense too.

0:43:20I don't use pages and numbers every day,

0:43:22but when I do, I use them and I love them for that.

0:43:24And so maybe you're right, free form's just part of that for me.

0:43:27Where like I've played with it and it's fine,

0:43:29but I haven't had a real thing to do in it yet.

0:43:32So I don't think I've understood its kind of power,

0:43:35but I'm going to keep it in my mind.

0:43:38Apple tried to really make it obvious to me

0:43:41by putting it on my home screen of my iPhone,

0:43:44moving all of my apps and widgets to other pages.

0:43:47Appreciate that.

0:43:48That was great.

0:43:49Thank you.

0:43:49Do you like the icon?

0:43:51I kind of love it.

0:43:52Love the icon.

0:43:53Love the icon.

0:43:54It's that kind of like 80s style.

0:43:57It reminds me of like that jazz.

0:43:59Is it called jazz?

0:44:01- Okay.

0:44:02- Purple and yeah.

0:44:03It's like the cups.

0:44:04It's called jazz design.

0:44:06So you'll know it when you see it.

0:44:08- Also in these new releases is doing air quotes,

0:44:12real time collaboration where you can share a note

0:44:17with another person or a group of people.

0:44:19And you've been able to do that for a long time,

0:44:21but it was not real time.

0:44:24like a chunk of text would come in at once or an image would suddenly show up

0:44:27or you would type on top of each other and then your sentences would just get

0:44:31melded somehow. We have played with this. What are y'all's impressions so far of

0:44:36the updated notes collaboration? I feel like it's embarrassed me. It's made a

0:44:42fool out of me. Because, so here's things you can do, right? If you open a note on

0:44:47two devices and type, it's like immediately updates. It's incredible. It's

0:44:52like as fast as Google Docs. Today I was, you know, you know, we all must all have

0:44:58this, but like, you know, I'm going to hand to my wife like, "Can you please install

0:45:01this version of the operating system on your device?" All the time. Like this has been

0:45:06particularly bad right now for reasons we'll get into later on. We're like,

0:45:09everyone needs to be on the same version, which is not normal, but it's happening.

0:45:13And so like when we were in a note together and writing and it was like

0:45:16immediate, she was typing, I could see it and then I said, "Oh guys, we're gonna try

0:45:20us out. Steven created a note for the four of us and it was a disaster. Yeah.

0:45:23And it didn't work at all. It was just like how it used to be where these big

0:45:27chunks. Now I reckon someone, one of the four of us is on the wrong version of an

0:45:31operating system. That's my theory. That someone's on the wrong version somewhere.

0:45:35So I, but like maybe there's something going wrong somewhere. Although. There he goes.

0:45:41That may have been me. Yeah, there you go. See I knew it. So to answer Kate's question, yes the

0:45:47fourth person is OTJ. The Mac Mini. I didn't update the Mac Mini. But

0:45:52Notes was not open on the Mac Mini. Does it still matter? I don't know. I

0:45:57don't know. But maybe it's better with two people than four people but like

0:46:02even me and Steven were trying it out and it wasn't working so maybe Steven's

0:46:05the problem. But I don't know. I've seen great results and so I think jury's

0:46:09still out on this one. I think I think that's fair. It's not it's not fully done

0:46:14but I like that they're doing stuff with this also was this I mean was this

0:46:20talked about in advance like I think it just showed up I don't think it was I

0:46:25think they did it nobody knew about it because no one looked and now some

0:46:29developers are talking about it I would like it to be a reasonable replacement

0:46:35for something like Google Docs I really like using Google Docs for the shows and

0:46:38I honestly don't want to use notes, but for other things, I think it'd be it'd be great if it were better because

0:46:46It was so frustrating to use before right where you would have those collisions and like delays and you know

0:46:53You get the sidebar and you kind of see what people are doing and there's actually a really nice

0:46:57Feature in I think the notes is better than Google Docs like right now in our Google Docs that we all have our own color

0:47:03Cursor right you can kind of see them in the document like there's a purple one appear

0:47:08There's a pink one down here and notes recreates that but it also has the little face of the

0:47:14person over it.

0:47:16And if you mouse over it on the Mac at least it expands out to their full name.

0:47:20So if you had a note shared with you know more than just one person you could see where

0:47:24everybody is and what they're doing.

0:47:25And I think their implementation of it's a little bit better polished than Google Docs.

0:47:30But I think they still have some work to do here.

0:47:33But hopefully it continues to get better.

0:47:35So me and Federico are in a note right now and it seems to be working much better.

0:47:41So I think Steven's the problem.

0:47:42No, I'm on 13.1.

0:47:45Everything's up to date.

0:47:46I have advanced data protection on.

0:47:47Me and you were trying to do it earlier and it wasn't working.

0:47:50And yeah, maybe you're just too encrypted.

0:47:52But like I can see Federico, he's like moving things up and down and it's happening what

0:47:56in what looks like real time to me.

0:47:59So Steven's the problem.

0:48:00We've worked that out.

0:48:02Yeah.

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0:49:55thanks to Trade Coffee for their support of the show and Relay FM. So you're too encrypted is the problem?

0:50:00I'm totes encrypted baby. So I set up the advanced data protection

0:50:05last night on my devices. You have to have everything up to date with

0:50:0916.2 or Mac OS 13.1, watch OS 9.2

0:50:15So when you go to do this

0:50:19It's in the main iCloud settings screen and settings on the Mac and everywhere else not in the password security

0:50:25Subsection of iCloud where you think it would be in fact

0:50:29I thought I didn't have access to it for some reason until I looked up a k-base article telling me how to do it

0:50:33So it will tell you what devices are logged in with your Apple ID that are not up to date

0:50:40So mine I had to wait on like one of my two HomePod minis in my office

0:50:44Like it just took a long time for one of them to come back after the update

0:50:48But eventually was able to do it

0:50:50You might also find a hilarious number of old devices signed into your Apple ID account

0:50:56I think John and I both had that experience yesterday

0:50:58You two are very like the type of person that would have that you especially I don't know what that means

0:51:06What does that mean that you have lots of old devices around are you not that kind of person?

0:51:10I was signed into a performer with my iCloud account

0:51:13Dealt with all that got everything up to date enabled it on my account. So I did I did a few things

0:51:19I made sure that my legacy contacts

0:51:22So if I kick it other people can get into my iCloud account

0:51:26I made sure that was all set up the way I wanted and it was I set up a couple people as my

0:51:31Regular recovery contacts if I'm locked out, you know, they can go to

0:51:35I'm not gonna say who but a couple of people and get get access I can get access that way

0:51:40I then enabled the fancy 28 digit recovery key

0:51:45The way that that works I'd added all this on the Mac, but from reading through Apple's documentation

0:51:51It's the same process everywhere you say okay. I want to create this you authenticate it then shows you

0:51:58the

0:52:0028-digit key you have an option to print it

0:52:04So I printed it and it's in a safe place

0:52:08Where is it? Tell me where is it?

0:52:10It's in a safe place.

0:52:11Come on, tell us where it is. Is it in one part?

0:52:13Tell us where it is.

0:52:14Is it physical?

0:52:15Come on, come on.

0:52:16It's under Federico's mattress right now.

0:52:18Did you go physical or digital? Just answer that.

0:52:20Both.

0:52:21Oooh.

0:52:22Oh!

0:52:23Federico, you know he's got like a safe inside of one of those Macs or something, you know?

0:52:28Yeah, he's got a safe thing going. Yeah.

0:52:32how how sometimes you like in a movie they go into a library and like one of

0:52:38the books is hollowed out there's a gun in it oh my god it's like that but

0:52:41computers and pass keys you've got a gun in there's no guns no guns I do not own

0:52:46a gun you said it was an example so did all that you then type in the recovery

0:52:51key you can't paste into the window I tried because I'm lazy typed it in and

0:52:57then I was able to turn on advanced data protection it walks you through that

0:53:02it makes really sure that you know what you're doing. Wait, wait, wait, I want to go

0:53:06back a couple of steps there so I'm gonna make sure I understand. So you get the recovery key, they

0:53:09make you type it back? Yes. That is incredibly good design. It is good. Right,

0:53:15because it means you have to have written it down. Yes. Or printed it off,

0:53:19or put it so you have to have done that? Yeah. Because you can't just be like, "I'll

0:53:23copy paste," like, whatever. I think that's very smart. I had the same thought

0:53:27process, like, this is well thought through. Yeah, that's really good. So did all that,

0:53:31and then was able to turn on advanced data protection.

0:53:35Using all my stuff last night and today,

0:53:38I cannot tell a difference.

0:53:39Like everything works just the way it did.

0:53:42Photo syncs just as fast as it always did.

0:53:45Maybe that's why notes are slow, I don't know.

0:53:47- Can you imagine?

0:53:48- So I did all this.

0:53:49- Oh, it is?

0:53:50- That'd be incredible.

0:53:51So I did all of this, it was great.

0:53:52I thought, okay, I'm gonna do Mary's as well.

0:53:54So I went through the same process,

0:53:57her legacy contacts, her recovery contacts,

0:53:59everything was good.

0:54:00When I went to generate the 28 digit recovery key

0:54:05and then re-enter it, her Mac told me repeatedly

0:54:09that the key was incorrect and it would not let me

0:54:12move forward in actually setting the key.

0:54:14So it doesn't turn the key on, for lack of a better phrase,

0:54:18until you manually say this is what the key is,

0:54:22which again, smart design.

0:54:24Tried a couple different times, didn't work.

0:54:26I then, I'm like, well, you know,

0:54:28I don't know what's going on.

0:54:29So I grabbed my laptop, I'm gonna do some Googling,

0:54:31and I have like three emails from people saying,

0:54:33"Hey, are you seeing this error?

0:54:35"I'm getting this error when trying to do this."

0:54:38So I don't know if iCloud or something,

0:54:42like too many people were trying to do it,

0:54:44or what the deal is, I have not tried again on her account.

0:54:47But if you are seeing where you re-enter

0:54:50the 28 digit recovery key and you know that it's correct,

0:54:55I mean, I like painfully like out loud was like,

0:54:57capital P, capital P, you know, one, one, you know,

0:55:02spelled it all out.

0:55:03- Is that your key?

0:55:04Is that how it starts?

0:55:05- It's PP11.

0:55:06(laughing)

0:55:09- It was weird, mine was actually, was just, yeah,

0:55:11it's just three, just repeated over and over.

0:55:14- PP11.

0:55:15- So I don't know what the deal is with that.

0:55:17I'm gonna try hers again probably this weekend.

0:55:19Everything's up to date on her account.

0:55:20It's just that this fails and I'm not able to move forward

0:55:24from that, so seems a little weird.

0:55:27definitely scared me a little bit. I was like, for a second, I was like, oh, no,

0:55:32like I just set a recovery key on her account that I don't know. Like,

0:55:35Oh, wow. That's, that's when, uh, my ears get hot.

0:55:40I do those kinds of things and like, then my ears get warm.

0:55:44You're like, oh no, I've done something that cannot be undone, but it doesn't,

0:55:47it doesn't set the key.

0:55:48I've said something should happen.

0:55:50But it doesn't set the key until you manually reenter it.

0:55:53So I don't know what the deal is. Um, so yeah,

0:55:56I've got turned on and I think if you're in the US or in a country where this rolls out in the future

0:56:02It's definitely worth looking at I wanted the additional security. I'm

0:56:05Capable of managing the recovery key and you know having my legacy contacts and everything all done

0:56:10so you got to jump through some hoops with it, but I think it's well worth it and

0:56:14So far so good at least on my account and I'll follow up with Mary's like I said, I'm gonna try hers again this weekend

0:56:20I think talking about updating every device the new home architecture

0:56:25So the new home app, it has a new architecture.

0:56:29What does it do?

0:56:30Unclear exactly.

0:56:32- Yeah.

0:56:33- Performance improvements.

0:56:34I was like, I was thinking to myself,

0:56:35hmm, my home feels snappier, right?

0:56:37It was just what I was imagining.

0:56:39(laughing)

0:56:40And it has more support for Matter,

0:56:43but it also kind of did, it's like what that exactly means.

0:56:47It's not entirely clear, but it's like you want it, right?

0:56:52Like, but they make it complicated.

0:56:55Like every device has to be updated

0:56:58and everyone's, not just yours,

0:57:00everybody's devices and across multiple homes.

0:57:03So like I have HomeKit stuff at the studio

0:57:05and HomeKit stuff at home.

0:57:06- Do you have two homes set up in HomeKit then?

0:57:09- If I wanted to update my home,

0:57:11it's like, oh, you've also got to do stuff at the studio

0:57:14because otherwise none of that's gonna work anymore.

0:57:16It's basically what it tells me.

0:57:17And it's like, okay.

0:57:19So like it's doing something on your phone.

0:57:21I think the matter stuff is making the phone the matter controller.

0:57:25So a lot of things need to be done and I'm wondering if I should wait a bit because I've

0:57:28still got devices that I haven't plugged in after moving.

0:57:32We've not plugged in our home pods yet.

0:57:35So I figure I should probably do that and update them before I do this.

0:57:38Now I'm sure I could just turn them on and update them to 16.2 and it will work but it's

0:57:43also a bit like, ooh, I don't know if I want to do that.

0:57:46Because today I finished updating all of my devices.

0:57:49of my devices done because it gives you a little list it tells you like this Mac

0:57:52and this watch you've got to do them so I did them and then like oh by the way

0:57:56these people so I could just did in it all of their stuffs gonna be done or

0:58:00it's not gonna work for them either it's like whoa geez okay so it's pretty

0:58:04extensive which I think is at the moment why it's quite hard to find in the home

0:58:10app where to do this because I think they don't want yeah it's buried yeah

0:58:16You have to go into the settings inside of the home app and go software update

0:58:19I figured out open the home app and get one of those splash screens like hey

0:58:23New architecture hit this button. But yeah, it's it's a bit buried. I did it. It took about 30 seconds again

0:58:30I can tell no difference. I did have the ear warming

0:58:33I really like that as a phrase the ear warming moment where I hit the button on my phone and I was like

0:58:40Oh, no, I run home bridge. My home bridge stuff is fine. Like it still all works. Okay now no

0:58:45it's fine sometimes it's like once every nine months you have to rebuild your

0:58:49home bridge from scratch I don't see what the big problem is windows users do

0:58:52it you know see I've done it at Apple is very unclear about what it does or you

0:59:00know anything like that but uh but yeah I'm upgraded so I'm I'm on that new home

0:59:05architecture whatever that means I'm sure it'll be helpful in the future it

0:59:09will be helpful in the future I think that they're gonna wait for a while

0:59:12before pushing that screen because I saw that screen in a beta like I opened the

0:59:17home app during a beta and showed me that screen yeah but okay and it's the screen

0:59:21that you get when you go into the software update thing so but I think now

0:59:26they're like well this is really complicated so they're just not going to

0:59:30show it to people for a while maybe they'll wait until like the majority of

0:59:33your devices are already done and then it will tell you hey you want to do this

0:59:37rather than like making people jump through all these hoops just to make

0:59:41this update. Yeah I still gotta do it. I'm staring at the screen now it says

0:59:46upgrade all homes because I also have the multi home home kit setup thing

0:59:52going. Multi home lifestyle. Yeah you know just switch between them whenever I

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1:01:15Capital One, what's in your wallet?

1:01:18- Was there anything of use that you can find?

1:01:21- I don't know guys, I don't know, I don't see it.

1:01:23(laughing)

1:01:25- There's nothing in there.

1:01:26This is the problem of not being on Twitter

1:01:28'cause usually I would just have Twitter open right now

1:01:31and we'll be waiting to see like,

1:01:33oh, I found this thing, right?

1:01:35I saw on the discord there's no release notes for the beta yet.

1:01:38Yeah, there's no release notes.

1:01:40I searched for Apple Music classical or just classic gold, but like there's

1:01:45nothing. I opened the music app and there's nothing special about it.

1:01:50Uh, you know, besides Apple Music Sing having a splash screen.

1:01:55Uh, I didn't see anything in shortcuts.

1:01:58I don't know.

1:01:59Did you find the Epic Games Store?

1:02:02Uh, no, I don't think it's in this version.

1:02:05Maybe I gotta look better.

1:02:07- Maybe next year.

1:02:09- Maybe next year.

1:02:11- Mark Gorman at Bloomberg is reporting

1:02:12that teams at Apple, various employees,

1:02:15lots of people have been tasked with opening up

1:02:18big portions of iOS in anticipation of European Union rules

1:02:23that would kind of make this unavoidable.

1:02:25There are a few things here.

1:02:26I'll list what they are

1:02:27and then we can talk about some of this stuff.

1:02:28So some of these things are private APIs.

1:02:31So camera controls, NFC functionality,

1:02:34find my access.

1:02:36Basically, I looked at this as like

1:02:38the things that people make, like

1:02:40hardware that people makes the Apple

1:02:41also makes that Apple is able to get

1:02:43benefit from. Right.

1:02:44So let's change that.

1:02:45Scrapping the browser engine

1:02:48requirements. Currently, every

1:02:50browser on iOS runs the WebKit

1:02:52engine, even if they would

1:02:54even Firefox.

1:02:55Yeah.

1:02:56Or even if you're Chrome.

1:02:57And this wasn't the case before.

1:02:59And then Apple changed that.

1:03:01Wait, it was it?

1:03:02No, I think it's always been.

1:03:04No, it hasn't always been the case.

1:03:05Federico, can you adjudicate?

1:03:08- No, never, never.

1:03:09- No, never, no, never.

1:03:11Okay, there you go, that's two to one.

1:03:13So that idea would change.

1:03:14There is talk about the possibility

1:03:17of iMessage compatibility with other platforms,

1:03:21but Mark Gurman is saying that Apple

1:03:23is gonna fight this one, two for now, which is interesting,

1:03:26because one of the ones that they seem to be preparing for

1:03:28is the possibility of third-party app stores.

1:03:30This could be an iOS 17 feature.

1:03:32"The company is reportedly dedicating a significant amount of resources to this company-wide endeavor.

1:03:38Apple is considering the idea of mandating certain security requirements, even if the

1:03:43software is distributed outside of its store, and these apps could require verification

1:03:48by Apple, a process that could carry a fee for developers."

1:03:52So this is European Union, right?

1:03:55And Mark Gurman right now is saying that he believes that, or is under the understanding

1:04:01that Apple is currently planning for this to go into effect only in the places that

1:04:05they need it. I wanted to see what you two thought about that because I think that if

1:04:09they just start this, I would expect they're just going to go all in.

1:04:13Well, that's the hope. I think it's such a massive technical undertaking that you might

1:04:20as well do the work and do it everywhere, you know? I think this is obviously it's going

1:04:27to be the story in our community for the next few months probably and into next year.

1:04:32We've been talking about it for years anyway.

1:04:34We've been talking about it for years. I just feel like at this time we need to be careful

1:04:40what we wish for is sort of the angle that I've taken on this because there's multiple

1:04:45ways in which this could go in unexpected directions. I just wanted to go through a

1:04:53few scenarios with you guys. The first and obvious one, I mean, Gurman reported this.

1:04:59Apple might as well say, "Fine, we will do site loading. We will now allow competing

1:05:04app stores to exist. We will now let you download apps from trusted sources." But what if part

1:05:10of that deal is, "Well, we are bringing our Gatekeeper technology to iOS and iPadOS."

1:05:17And I, you know, I suppose they're doing it on both platforms. We're bringing Gatekeeper,

1:05:22But now, if you want to have your app be verified via Gatekeeper, now you've got to give us

1:05:29an annual fee that is like this massive verification fee. And you know that there could be ways

1:05:36in which Apple could tell you, "Well, yeah, you can do it, but you've got to give us 20%

1:05:41of your revenue every year."

1:05:43Yep.

1:05:44Can they do it? Will they do it?

1:05:46They've done it with the third party payment stuff.

1:05:51Do you remember that?

1:05:53It was like in South Korea and it's in other places now,

1:05:55I think it's in the Netherlands too,

1:05:56where you have to do an audit for Apple

1:06:00and give it to them and then they'll take--

1:06:02- But the app was still distributed via the app store.

1:06:04- But still they may just say, if it's on our platform,

1:06:07you owe us 28%.

1:06:10- They could say that.

1:06:11And for as ridiculous as it could be,

1:06:14will be like, "Hey, yes, we're happy. We cannot distribute apps outside of the App Store,

1:06:19but we cannot avoid Apple's fee." And it's like a ridiculous... Like they could just

1:06:24say it's 29% just out of spite to make it even more ironic, but they could do it. They

1:06:31could do it.

1:06:33The other scenario that I was imagining, like what you just mentioned, Myke, will this be

1:06:37EU only or will it also extend to the US? If it stays EU only, I could see a problem

1:06:44I mean, which some companies may say, well,

1:06:47do we care about distributing apps when most of our users,

1:06:51most of our audience is in the United States anyway?

1:06:54Do we care about this particular change for Europe?

1:06:57Now, Europe is a bigger market for a ton of companies

1:07:00than say just South Korea, right?

1:07:03It's a much bigger audience, but still.

1:07:06- Or just the Netherlands, right?

1:07:08- Or just the Netherlands. - Where they've been making

1:07:09these particular changes, but Europe is here.

1:07:12I mean, look, here's my thinking.

1:07:14I don't think they're just gonna do USB-C on the iPhone

1:07:17in only Europe.

1:07:18(laughing)

1:07:19And so I think it would be a similar thing here.

1:07:22And also, it's like you may as well get ahead of this

1:07:27before the, 'cause if this passes in the EU,

1:07:30it's probably inevitably gonna pass,

1:07:31depending on the government in America,

1:07:33at least in some form,

1:07:35because this kind of stuff's been bubbling around

1:07:37in the States for a long time anyway, right?

1:07:39The monopoly stuff.

1:07:40- It has.

1:07:41And so it feels an inevitability.

1:07:44By the way, it's just like, how funny in hindsight is the name Gatekeeper?

1:07:47Yeah, it's perfect.

1:07:50If you think about it.

1:07:51Because they're called Gatekeepers now.

1:07:54Like all of this EU stuff, they refer to the companies as Gatekeepers.

1:07:59It's perfect.

1:08:00It's perfect.

1:08:01I have a proposal.

1:08:02Say that we're stuck with Lightning in the US and they switch ports in Europe.

1:08:09That phone could be the iPhone E USB-C?

1:08:13It's good.

1:08:14EU.

1:08:15It's good.

1:08:16I feel like you could make a big Apple buddy in that situation going the other way too.

1:08:20It's a reverse Apple buddy.

1:08:21It's sending stuff to America.

1:08:23Making bank out of the USB-C iPhone.

1:08:28The other, I think the other scenario in which we, I think this is the one that's going to

1:08:33happen and we gotta prepare ourselves. And it's fine, but just it will entail a change of habits.

1:08:40And how we think of our phones. You know that if Apple opens up the platform to compete in

1:08:47App Stores, you know that we're gonna end up in a situation where you have the meta store, and the

1:08:54epic game store, and the Microsoft store. And you know that all these companies are gonna say, "Well,

1:09:00We're taking these apps off the App Store and we're doing our own store.

1:09:05You want Instagram? Go to the Meta store.

1:09:08You want Fortnite? Go to the Epic store and so forth.

1:09:11Now, this has been... This fragmentation of stores, of marketplaces,

1:09:16has been mostly fine on computers and video game consoles.

1:09:20We are used to that now.

1:09:22I would say that this is a maybe, right?

1:09:24Because Meta don't have their own Android store.

1:09:26No, they don't, but, you know...

1:09:30I could see this as a possibility, but I don't think... I hear a lot of people talk about this as an inevitability.

1:09:35But if the majority of users are still using the App Store, which they will,

1:09:42you want to be where the majority of users are. You don't want to make it 20 steps to download Instagram.

1:09:47I don't think it's inevitable, but I think it's likely that more and more are going to happen.

1:09:52Definitely. And the Epic Games Store is a perfect example, right?

1:09:55And Microsoft talked about doing its own Xbox store for mobile games and cloud gaming.

1:10:01But like, I think for gaming, this is fine because it already exists as a thing everywhere, right?

1:10:07So gamers get it.

1:10:08But realistically, you could also see a scenario in which companies like Setup could do,

1:10:13"Well, now we have a store and you pay a subscription through us and you get a bunch of apps."

1:10:18It also remains to be seen whether the same app can be distributed through multiple stores.

1:10:24Can you be in a situation in a future iPhone where you have the same app on your phone

1:10:29from multiple stores?

1:10:31Like is that a potential thing that could happen?

1:10:35I don't know.

1:10:36I mean, if we model it on the Mac, yes.

1:10:38Yes.

1:10:39If you model it on the Mac, yes.

1:10:43But if you think about it on your phone, it's kind of weird, right?

1:10:46Timery.

1:10:47Taylor's version.

1:10:48You know what I mean?

1:10:49Like that's what we get.

1:10:51Yeah, it's exactly that.

1:10:52So I think all of this is going to happen, and it will require a change of mindset in

1:10:57how we think of our iPhone.

1:10:59It's going to be more like a computer, more like a Mac than a phone, which is ironic because

1:11:04iOS was based on my Quest 10, but still, you know, it's very different from what it is

1:11:08right now.

1:11:09And let me say, by the way, I am super happy that this is happening.

1:11:14I am here for this chaos going into 2033.

1:11:17I think it's about time that Apple, you know, opens up the...

1:11:21Like I don't care.

1:11:22pride open, you know, let it in, like I don't care, give me all the apps, give me all the apps, give me

1:11:28software using private APIs, it's about time, you know, and it's unfortunate that a government agency

1:11:37had to force Apple's hands here, but I continue to believe that it's absurd at this point that on

1:11:45on Mac OS you can have Gatekeeper and on iOS and iPad OS you cannot.

1:11:50What is it the optimal scenario that the EU had to force Apple to make it happen?

1:11:55No, but the outcome, I kind of like it.

1:11:59I want it.

1:12:00Yeah.

1:12:01I want this.

1:12:02I want all of this.

1:12:03I do too.

1:12:04Because we all make it work with the Mac, right?

1:12:06Like we just make it work and it's fine and you don't have to do any of it and you won't

1:12:11have to do any of it.

1:12:12Like imagine if the Mac App Store was really good and had everything in it, right?

1:12:17It would make everybody's lives easier.

1:12:19And so this would be like that, where like all of the apps you want, they're going to

1:12:22be in the App Store and you never have to do anything weird.

1:12:26But if you're like us, you can go and download the blank store and you can go and sideload

1:12:32this weird app that like adds a bunch of hacks to shortcuts.

1:12:37You can just do that because you want to and you're going to have a great time.

1:12:41So I want this, I'm into it.

1:12:45And do you know what?

1:12:45I really hope that like,

1:12:47again, in the piece from Mark Gurman,

1:12:50I thought it was really interesting saying like,

1:12:51there are a bunch of Apple employees that are like

1:12:53really mad that they're having to work on this

1:12:55'cause they feel like it's a distraction.

1:12:57You know, I kind of understand that to a point

1:12:59of like you're working on a thing and then like,

1:13:00oh, this is legislation and da, da, da.

1:13:03But I really hope that people can like take a step back

1:13:06and realize that this needs to happen.

1:13:09Like this has to happen

1:13:10because the monopoly is way too strong.

1:13:13Of things like, if you don't hear that idea

1:13:18of Apple demanding audits of people's transactions

1:13:21so they can make sure they get,

1:13:22none of this stuff should be happening.

1:13:24It's all gone too far.

1:13:26I hope that we get over this hump of them doing it

1:13:28and then Apple embrace this and use this as a way

1:13:31to continue making the platform even better.

1:13:34That the competition is good for them and/or they make it

1:13:38so it's really easy for people that care

1:13:39to do fun stuff like they allow on the Mac

1:13:42and they continue to make tools that people can use

1:13:46whether they distribute inside or outside the app store

1:13:49or maybe they're different

1:13:50and that they really use this as a way

1:13:52to further this platform.

1:13:54Just I hope that there will be enough people

1:13:57inside of the company that take this as an opportunity

1:14:00to pick up a ball and run with it

1:14:02rather than just feel like their heels

1:14:04are being dragged through.

1:14:05- Yeah, if they do it, they should own it

1:14:07and they should make it real high quality.

1:14:10You know, they should make the polished,

1:14:13Apple-like iPhone version of what the concept

1:14:18of installing apps from different sources is.

1:14:20Like, don't make, basically what I think

1:14:23we are asking for here is don't make us feel bad

1:14:26for enabling this.

1:14:28What if they bring over the DMG,

1:14:31like mount it on the desktop and drag the app over

1:14:34from the Mac? You have to drag and drop it.

1:14:35(laughing)

1:14:36and then eject it every time you're done.

1:14:39It's like, we fixed this.

1:14:40- To be fair, we thought,

1:14:43go back a couple of years ago,

1:14:45and we thought, oh, Apple is never gonna let you set

1:14:47a default web browser, like a different default browser.

1:14:50And they did it, and it's pretty elegant.

1:14:52I mean, sure, you gotta go into settings,

1:14:54but hey, you have a proper settings screen,

1:14:56and every link redirects to the different browser,

1:14:59and there's a menu that shows you

1:15:01all the options that you have.

1:15:02It's fine.

1:15:04It's pretty nicely presented.

1:15:06So it's not like you gotta open a JSON configuration file

1:15:11and hack something yourself.

1:15:13No, it's got a UI, it's nice, it's pretty easy to do.

1:15:17I hope the same will be true for installing apps

1:15:20from different sources, and maybe there'll be a menu

1:15:22that shows you, here's the sources you have apps from.

1:15:26Like, it can be done nicely.

1:15:29And by German's report, it sounds like

1:15:31this is a company-wide effort.

1:15:33It also sounds like some engineers don't wanna do it,

1:15:36and they think it's a waste of time,

1:15:38which it's fun to get that perspective.

1:15:42Like, why do you think it's a waste of time?

1:15:44But you gotta believe that there are some people

1:15:47inside Apple who are like, no,

1:15:48our users should always install apps from us

1:15:53and not anybody else, which I understand, but still,

1:15:57it's, you know, this is the world we live in now.

1:16:00Competition is good, it turns out.

1:16:02- And that idea of embracing it fully

1:16:04is why I hope that they do just do the whole do the damn thing, right?

1:16:08So like it's the big WWDC feature, because if they do that, they're not just

1:16:13going to make it Europe only, right?

1:16:14If they're going to make it like a big part of WWDC and like, this is

1:16:17what I'm hoping they're going to do.

1:16:18If they'll do it, I don't know, but I'm trying to put that energy out there.

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1:18:29Show and relay FM. All right. So speaking about owning things

1:18:33Mm-hmm. We should own the weirdness of this episode. Okay

1:18:37the two things are happening today one Federico had a

1:18:41Hard out time which we have now surpassed that time. Yes, so Federico has run away forever

1:18:49Goodbye, Federica.

1:18:50Forever.

1:18:51I didn't mean that.

1:18:52He's just gone for this episode.

1:18:54He'll be back next time, probably.

1:18:56Who knows?

1:18:57Maybe there'll be snakes in the internet.

1:18:58Who knows?

1:18:59But maybe he'll be back.

1:19:00Yeah, he should be back.

1:19:01I've taken this down a weirder route than it was meant to.

1:19:05He's just gone now, alright?

1:19:07He's just gone.

1:19:08Don't worry about it.

1:19:09He had to leave.

1:19:10The pro show today was way longer than we thought it was going to be, and we liked it,

1:19:14and we were talking about something that's probably important, and we should probably

1:19:17address it right which is our stance on Twitter as you've heard so we decided

1:19:20that the pro show is available for everyone but we're gonna do the pre-show

1:19:25of the pro show but we're gonna do a pro post show as well if you enjoyed the vibe

1:19:31of the pro show they're like that a lot it's like more relaxed it's it can be a

1:19:36different kind of topic you should sign up for connected pro and this is the

1:19:39final call you've got just what how many more days is it three days when this is

1:19:44So on the 19th, right, so up until the 19th of December...

1:19:4817th, today's the 14th. You have done such a bad job of this.

1:19:52Why don't you take over then, Mr. Goodjob?

1:19:54Federico had to leave.

1:19:56The pro-show, what we thought was going to be the pro-show, we put in the main show for everybody.

1:20:02So there's going to be a post-show for members this week.

1:20:04If you like that, go to GiveRelay.com between now and December 17th.

1:20:09Three days from now, you can get 20% off an annual membership.

1:20:13But it's also going to be a post show, which you'll only get if you do that.

1:20:16If you remember.

1:20:17So should we do follow up now?

1:20:20iPhone Emergency SOS is now available in more countries,

1:20:24United Kingdom, France, Germany and Ireland.

1:20:28Michael, will you be testing this by crashing a car?

1:20:31Wait, why have I got to crash a car for?

1:20:33I don't know.

1:20:34Just you can't fake an emergency.

1:20:36It's got to be a real emergency.

1:20:37I don't want to test car crash detection as well as.

1:20:40Oh, yes. Right.

1:20:41Those are two different things. Yeah.

1:20:42- So you're gonna-- - Oh, great job, Steven.

1:20:44- Are you gonna test it by wandering off into the woods?

1:20:47- No, I just did the test thing.

1:20:49- Did you, how was it?

1:20:50Cool, huh?

1:20:51- I did it when I was in the studio

1:20:52and I couldn't find a satellite.

1:20:53- You gotta be outside.

1:20:55- But I at least got the UI, like whatever.

1:20:58Like the moving around, it's like,

1:20:59"Hey, we found the satellite."

1:21:01And they're like, "I'll go outside."

1:21:02And I'm like, "I don't wanna go outside."

1:21:03So I didn't go outside, so I only tested half of it.

1:21:05But I feel like I got enough, right,

1:21:07to like, I just wanted to see what the UI looked like

1:21:09for detecting the satellite.

1:21:11and I got that far.

1:21:13And so it was pretty cool.

1:21:14Like I thought it was really interesting.

1:21:17I'm happy that it's there.

1:21:19This is not a thing that I will subscribe to

1:21:21when I need to subscribe to it, right?

1:21:23I think it just, it's not a thing for me,

1:21:25but it's a cool feature that exists.

1:21:27- There was a story a couple of weeks ago.

1:21:29I don't remember if we talked about it or not,

1:21:31but it was like the first example of someone being saved

1:21:34by iPhone emergency SOS.

1:21:36- Yeah.

1:21:37I mean, it was gonna happen, right?

1:21:38Like we already unfortunately

1:21:41had the people who, they're like people who died, but the car crash detection

1:21:45thing went off for them, which was really sad. And so this was inevitable that it was going to

1:21:49happen at some point. So it happened in Alaska, which that makes sense.

1:21:54Yeah. Yeah, you get lost in the great white north, then maybe Canada. Actually, now that I think about it.

1:22:01Also in follow-up, you have continued to use Spark. You spoke a while back about

1:22:07some of the changes to it and how you felt about those.

1:22:09How is it going a month or two later?

1:22:13- Well, okay, so a couple of things have happened.

1:22:15I've gotten more used to it and they've made improvements.

1:22:17So really the only big work that's, well not really,

1:22:22most of the work that has been needed

1:22:24to make Spark work better has been on their Mac app.

1:22:27I mentioned they made changes to their iPhone app

1:22:30and there are still a bunch of things I don't like about it

1:22:32but mostly it's just like the approach and language stuff.

1:22:35Like I still have not used to done phrase instead of archive,

1:22:39like it still annoys me.

1:22:41But overall, some of the new features

1:22:43are working for me pretty well.

1:22:44So they've added in on the Mac app

1:22:46a dark mode, printing support, and a sidebar.

1:22:49Very happy for that.

1:22:50Still want a column view.

1:22:52Then they say that they're working on it.

1:22:56The two features that they added that I'm enjoying

1:23:00is their sender blocking and the automatic sorting of email.

1:23:04So the sender blocking feature is like someone pops into my inbox, I can block them and never

1:23:08hear from them again. I like this and the email sorting is also good. And what I like about it is

1:23:13it's working across all of my email accounts no matter what service they are or service they're

1:23:20not. So I like that it's doing this and it just it's you know it is a true unified inbox in that

1:23:25sense. So that is pretty cool like and all of that stuff is is working pretty well for me.

1:23:31I remain pretty intrigued to see if or how the iPhone app will change.

1:23:37The Mac app has a very different design now and is built on different web technologies.

1:23:43It's built on Electron.

1:23:45They haven't done any of this to the iPhone app.

1:23:48They've just made some changes to make the new features work and I assume at some point

1:23:53that they're going to randomly drop a Spark 3 for the iPhone like they did for the Mac.

1:23:57It just appears one day.

1:24:00I'm intrigued to see what that will look like.

1:24:03But, you know, basically where I am now is things,

1:24:07the same things that annoyed me about the app

1:24:09when I spoke about it first still do,

1:24:12but I have come to value the features that they've added.

1:24:16I just -- So, really, I stick by my initial things.

1:24:19I wish they could have just added these features

1:24:22without needing to get all high and mighty

1:24:24about how to do your e-mail, right?

1:24:27And also, I wished that they would have waited

1:24:29until the Mac app was ready before they did all of this stuff because I mean it's still not ready

1:24:36like it crashes on me a lot so it's very good that it saves drafts pretty well you know it crashes on

1:24:43me a lot but they're adding in the features that I want but again they're features that should have

1:24:50always been there yeah yeah the the mismatch of those versions really blows my mind yeah it's

1:24:57very strange. It is very, very strange. I mean, you want your life coaching in your

1:25:02email app on all your devices, you know? That's true. That's true. Give me give me

1:25:06those inspirational quotes. The last bit of follow-up I have broke as we were

1:25:11recording in the Discord for Relay FM members. So Jamie Bloomberg is working on

1:25:18a project called the Passionate App and you can go check it out on GitHub and it

1:25:25It is built in Swift Playgrounds using the Rickies.net API, which we talked about a few

1:25:31weeks ago that Jason's been working on.

1:25:34And you'll be able to get all of your Rickies and annual picks and everything all in an

1:25:42app, hopefully in the future.

1:25:43So I'm going to check this out after the show.

1:25:44I didn't want to download it when we're recording, but I'm very excited about this.

1:25:48So that's coming up soon, right?

1:25:50The Annies?

1:25:51well so the annies are the annual review oh yeah the annies is the is the review

1:26:00of the year that is also coming up though that is coming up and then also

1:26:04the annual picks are coming up right yes both things okay it's a busy time

1:26:09between now and the end of the year mm-hmm but this is gonna be cool so I'm

1:26:14gonna be keeping down this and excited to see where it goes mm-hmm so I think

1:26:18I think that does it for the regular episode this week.

1:26:22Again, we hope you enjoyed what was going to be the pro show.

1:26:26We put that in first for everybody.

1:26:29So if you want to hear more about that

1:26:31or that type of thing, giverelay.com,

1:26:34that sale runs through the end of the week.

1:26:35- You did do a good job there.

1:26:37That was a bad job.

1:26:38- I mean, do you want to do it this time?

1:26:40- You brought this energy.

1:26:41You brought this energy.

1:26:42You know what I mean?

1:26:43I was just trying my best

1:26:45and then you started criticizing me in front of everyone.

1:26:48You know?

1:26:49So now I'm doing it back.

1:26:51This is where we are.

1:26:52Yes.

1:26:53If you are a member though, we're going to do a post-show just for you.

1:26:56In the meantime, if you want to find links to stuff we spoke about, head on over to the

1:26:59website at relay.fm/connected/428.

1:27:04While you're there, you can send us feedback via email.

1:27:07And again, you can become a member, giverelay.com between now and the 17th.

1:27:12The annual plan is 20% off.

1:27:15I'd like our sponsors this week.

1:27:17They are Trade Coffee, Capital One, and Bombas.

1:27:21And until next time, Myke, say goodbye.

1:27:24- Cheerio.