0:00:00[MUSIC PLAYING]
0:00:03From Relay FM, this is Connected.
0:00:10Welcome to episode 390.
0:00:13I am your host-- well, actually, one of your co-hosts,
0:00:15Tom Federico.
0:00:16And it's my pleasure, first of all,
0:00:18to thank our four sponsors this week, Squarespace, Hover,
0:00:22Trade Coffee, and Theragun.
0:00:24You will be able to hear more about them later.
0:00:27But it's also my pleasure to introduce my other co-host from the United States of America,
0:00:32more specifically Memphis, Tennessee, Stephen Hackett.
0:00:35Hey Federico.
0:00:37Hi.
0:00:38Hey.
0:00:39I think I'm getting the hang of these intros.
0:00:42It was good.
0:00:43You hit the "from" really hard.
0:00:44Yes, you gotta do that, right?
0:00:46You gotta do that, because Myke does it, has been doing it forever.
0:00:50I do not do it anymore.
0:00:52No, you do it.
0:00:53Jason used to make fun of me all the time.
0:00:55It's like how Austin dropped the "hey guys, this is Austin".
0:01:00But it's not exactly the same, but yeah, he did stop doing that.
0:01:03But I do still say for him, I just don't put all the energy on it, you know?
0:01:07Yeah.
0:01:08Well, now I do.
0:01:09So I am your...
0:01:10The baton has passed to you.
0:01:14The bassoon has passed to you Federico.
0:01:16And if you want to hear more about bassoons and other flute-like instruments, make sure
0:01:22to sign up for Connected Pro.
0:01:24very serious, very professional, members-only version of Connected that people can get where,
0:01:30Myke? At getconnectedpro.co. Yes. Anyway, we're jumping ahead because Stephen, you are supposed
0:01:36to introduce our third co-host from London, England. Yes, we are joined by Mr. Myke Hurley.
0:01:43Hello. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hey, I missed y'all last week, but I enjoyed listening to the show. I
0:01:50I thought it was a very good episode.
0:01:52- Thank you.
0:01:53- And now I'm back.
0:01:55- Spoke a lot about video games as we all want to do
0:01:58when you're not around, yep.
0:01:59- A friend of mine texted me and was like,
0:02:01I'm listening connected, you're not on it.
0:02:02And I can't tell if I accidentally hit play on remaster.
0:02:05It's like, yeah, they do that.
0:02:06- We do that.
0:02:07- It's fine, it's fine.
0:02:08It's always a good episode.
0:02:09Let's start with some follow up.
0:02:11And this week it is mostly about the studio display,
0:02:16which you all spoke about last episode.
0:02:18- Myke, a little bit.
0:02:19- A little bit, yeah.
0:02:20promised that you would. We really built the anticipation for it, you know, so you got
0:02:26to deliver now. Yeah, I went to a store with Myke, do you have a shipping date on yours
0:02:30yet? Nah man, it's just sometime between the 30th of March and sometime in April. Yeah,
0:02:37that's what my Mac Studio says. Yeah, oh really? Because you built a little, right? I did,
0:02:43yeah, we will get to that, there's lots of Mac Studio stuff later in the episode. But
0:02:48Reviews are out, everything.
0:02:50I caught up, watched them all, read them all.
0:02:52And it's just so interesting to me
0:02:54that this display seems to have some camera issues.
0:02:59I don't think we'll have to go over that.
0:03:00It's been covered a lot.
0:03:01But what's interesting to me is that this thing is,
0:03:03it's not even like basically a computer.
0:03:05It is a computer.
0:03:06Like it is what, an iPhone 11 inside or an old iPad Air.
0:03:11It's got the A13 bionic, lots of storage.
0:03:14It's so interesting to me the way they solved this.
0:03:16- I enjoyed a tweet from Joanna Stern.
0:03:19She was like, "I'm looking forward
0:03:20"to the first tear down of this
0:03:22"where they take the screen off
0:03:23"and an iPad just falls out."
0:03:24- Yeah, yeah.
0:03:25- That was pretty funny.
0:03:27- It looks like a computer inside.
0:03:30It's pretty interesting.
0:03:34And even back in the days of like the Thunderbolt display,
0:03:38they were putting more and more into the monitor, right?
0:03:42to handle all of the I/O and all the display stuff.
0:03:46The Pro Display XDR has lots of fanciness in it.
0:03:50It's, you know, big, thick, chunky thing
0:03:52with lots of spinning parts, fans,
0:03:54and you know, the creepy holes
0:03:56that now I'm touching on either side of my monitor.
0:03:58And this thing just really kind of follows
0:04:00in those footsteps, but it's the first time
0:04:02I think we've seen really Apple basically just picking up
0:04:05like an A series chip and putting it directly into a display.
0:04:09But it makes sense.
0:04:11This is obviously really good for like embedded systems.
0:04:13It can run forever, nice and stable, plenty of horsepower.
0:04:17We'll see if they can solve the camera thing.
0:04:19And hopefully it's not something
0:04:22that the A13 is just underpowered for,
0:04:25but because it runs iOS, they can just update it.
0:04:28And there were some tweets over the last few days
0:04:32of people looking at the updates,
0:04:33looking at the tech details.
0:04:35It's pretty interesting stuff to me.
0:04:37- It's interesting as well that they've,
0:04:39that it's actually got 64 gigabytes of storage, right?
0:04:42Like that just feels so weird.
0:04:45Like I did to put storage in a display.
0:04:47- I mean, you gotta cache the pixels.
0:04:50- Yeah, you gotta cache the pixels.
0:04:53My guess is that the A13 they're using,
0:04:56like that's just the most efficient one they have around,
0:05:00but it seems like a waste.
0:05:02I don't know why.
0:05:03It has to be coming down to economics.
0:05:05I don't know why you would do it otherwise.
0:05:07- I think I heard someone say,
0:05:08I don't remember who now, but like just the idea that they maybe just have these basically
0:05:13packages of things, right? And like an A13 with a 64 gigabyte SSD is just like a thing
0:05:18they already have tons of or can very easily make. So they just put it in there even though
0:05:23they'll maybe never need that amount. Like, but they need some, right? Because it runs
0:05:28iOS, like a version of iOS, which is also hilarious. But yeah, question. I have a question
0:05:36for you. I don't know if anybody knows the answer to this yet. Is it possible to do touch
0:05:42ID on a keyboard with a Mac that doesn't support it if you have that display? Does anybody
0:05:48know the answer to that question? Do you understand what I'm asking?
0:05:52I don't know. My guess would be no, that they're not sending any like secure enclave authentication
0:06:00over Thunderbolt.
0:06:02Because I know that the display enables a Mac to do things that otherwise a Mac couldn't
0:06:07do like spatial audio and stuff like that.
0:06:10And Ahoy telephone will work on Macs that don't support it if they're hooked up to this
0:06:14display but I have not seen anything about Touch ID.
0:06:16I would be surprised if they had enabled that.
0:06:19It'd be cool but...
0:06:20Yeah fair enough.
0:06:21I just wondered how much of the package actually gets included.
0:06:26There was another tweet that I really liked by this guy named Federico who said Apple
0:06:29is making a new consumer display that has the guts of a base model iPad, but the iPad
0:06:35still doesn't really support external displays. That made me laugh.
0:06:38Yeah, well, that guy's an idiot, so of course he makes me laugh.
0:06:41I want to see him know.
0:06:43Well, I mean, it's true, though, right? It is a base model iPad inside. You know, it's
0:06:49even got the 64 gigs of storage. And I just find it—I understand, like, this is a display,
0:06:55a modern display that, you know, you start seeing this convergence of, well, it's not
0:07:00just a monitor, it also powers software features even for Macs that do not have them, so it
0:07:05makes sense to have an A13 inside, but if you think about it, it's kind of ironic that
0:07:11the same hardware, right, of a base model iPad is in a display, and that of course the
0:07:17display does display things, but the iPad still can't. And, you know, it's a funny tweet
0:07:23but the underlying point is true. I would be really surprised. I actually also liked
0:07:30this tweet from Chris Lolly, friend of the show, if anybody can find it. It was in response to this
0:07:37tweet, I think. And Chris said, like, personal theory, you know, I see that the iPad Pro supports
0:07:44the, um, the, what's the Pro Display XDR? Okay, I got it. I had a bit of an epiphany over the weekend.
0:07:52The studio display requires the USB-C 10 gigabit per second.
0:07:56The Pro Display XDR requires Thunderbolt.
0:07:58The iPad Air got that USB spec
0:08:00and the iPad Pro got Thunderbolt.
0:08:02Maybe I'm reading too much into this,
0:08:04but monitor support coming in iOS 16?
0:08:06- So that would be- - This feels like,
0:08:08this to me, no offense to you and Chris,
0:08:12the desperation of an iPad user.
0:08:15- Probably. - Of like,
0:08:16trying- - No, you're right.
0:08:17- Like doing the string, you know,
0:08:18like the always sunny meme.
0:08:21like please give me what I want and I will find a way to get there. Maybe he's right
0:08:25but I don't know. I just feel like, you know, to hurt too many times, that kind of thing.
0:08:30Still I'm gonna be upset if they don't do it in 16 because it's just so obvious at this
0:08:37point that all the pieces for this are ready. They just gotta do it and honestly they have
0:08:42been ready for the past couple of years. That's what stings here, that they have done the
0:08:46pointer and the magic keyboard in 2020 and multitasking was already there. So I guess
0:08:53the only thing that they added was multi-window, but that was also in 2020. So really for the
0:08:57past two years, all the technical pieces have been in place, but they haven't done it. And
0:09:03now that they are, it stings even more because now they are back to making their own consumer
0:09:09display and so all those feelings, they bubble up again. That's why I think iPad users are,
0:09:16know are in the bargaining stage again you know because it's like come on just do it
0:09:21you know come on can't you just do it and I can see that.
0:09:24I want to understand what you're hoping for or looking for here is it just that like you
0:09:29could plug it into a display and you would get a bigger view like or do you want like
0:09:33free moving windows more apps on screen like that kind of stuff.
0:09:38Well I would be fine with I would be fine with just having an extended home screen so
0:09:45that you move beyond the basic mirroring that you have now.
0:09:51And what you can do is you have your iPad that retains its home
0:09:54screen, and you can place other apps and other windows
0:09:58on the external monitor.
0:10:00So it's like extended display mode on the Mac,
0:10:02but on iPad OS.
0:10:04Now, that would be the bare minimum.
0:10:07Like, don't do mirroring.
0:10:08Let me control-- let me place other windows
0:10:11on the other display.
0:10:12But there would be some additional niceties, I think,
0:10:15that would be, well, nice to have.
0:10:17Like, for example, can I put the iPad in clamshell mode
0:10:22and use my existing Bluetooth keyboard
0:10:25and Bluetooth trackpad and do what I would be able to do
0:10:29with a Mac but on an external display?
0:10:31Right now, if you plug in an iPad Pro
0:10:33to an external monitor and you lock the iPad Pro,
0:10:36you don't see anything anymore on the external monitor.
0:10:39It just goes black.
0:10:40- Yeah, that is annoying.
0:10:41But also, I could make an argument in favor of maybe not freely resizable windows, maybe
0:10:49not that, but more sizing options, more layout options.
0:10:54And Apple likes to do this sort of thing, right?
0:10:57They take an existing feature from Mac OS and they remix it, if you will.
0:11:02They convert it to an iPadOS equivalent.
0:11:07Look what they've done with the App Switcher,
0:11:10with Split View, with Slide Over.
0:11:12Like, they take something that you want
0:11:15and they put a new spin on it.
0:11:17So I would be fine with not the macOS system.
0:11:21So you go to the corner of the window
0:11:23and the cursor becomes the two arrows
0:11:26and you can freely resize a window.
0:11:28I could live without that on iPadOS,
0:11:31but I think if they do add support for external monitors,
0:11:35they also need to do multiple sizing options,
0:11:39meaning you can just do external monitor support,
0:11:44but Split View remains limited to two windows
0:11:47at the same time.
0:11:48You gotta support more layout modes
0:11:52than just two apps at the same time.
0:11:54So I compromise, is what I'm looking for, I guess.
0:11:57- If they were to do the true multi-window support,
0:12:02do you see those application windows
0:12:05or whatever the document windows being fully like resizable
0:12:10or do you think that we would get options?
0:12:12- Well, something like windows comes to mind, right?
0:12:15Where you have all those like the corners of the display
0:12:20and the layouts like on windows when you hold down,
0:12:24I don't remember the key,
0:12:25but when you hold down, you get the pop-up
0:12:27and some like Mac OS does this kind of,
0:12:30but it's better on windows
0:12:32and third-party window managers, they do this on macOS,
0:12:34like a list of pre-assembled configurations,
0:12:37like top right or bottom left,
0:12:40or three quarters of the screen.
0:12:44And maybe you could do four apps at the same time.
0:12:47Maybe it would also depend on the size
0:12:50of the external display that you're connecting to.
0:12:52Meaning, if you are connecting
0:12:54to a 15-inch external monitor,
0:12:56like the portable OLED monitor that I have,
0:12:59it's a portable gaming monitor.
0:13:01It's 15.6 inches.
0:13:03On that thing, I could see maybe three apps in Split View,
0:13:07but not any more than that.
0:13:09But if you are connecting to a 27-inch monitor,
0:13:12well, in that case, you can do, I don't know, four or five.
0:13:16Maybe you can do a grid of iPad windows in, quote unquote,
0:13:20"Split View."
0:13:21That is more of a grid view.
0:13:23There you go, Apple.
0:13:24Just call it grid view.
0:13:25Do a grid view in iPadOS 16 for external monitor support.
0:13:29That would be excellent.
0:13:30So it's complicated, right?
0:13:32Because you don't want to have the complexity of macOS,
0:13:35and you likely don't want to deal with all that baggage
0:13:39that comes from decades of macOS tradition.
0:13:43And you're like, well, if we do this on iPadOS,
0:13:45we don't want to do the freely resizable window
0:13:47with the dragging indicator for a window.
0:13:50And okay, I understand that.
0:13:52But at the same time, you got to compromise somewhere.
0:13:55And maybe the compromise would be,
0:13:56what if we gave users more pre-built layouts?
0:14:01So it's not freely resizable,
0:14:04but you get more options than you do now.
0:14:07That system would also scale
0:14:10to a future bigger iPad Pro, right?
0:14:14So that would be okay, I think.
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0:16:18- So last week I asked connected listeners,
0:16:21the passionate ones to tell me if they use SharePlay.
0:16:25And I've been getting tweets from connected listeners
0:16:28that use SharePlay.
0:16:29Because I was genuinely intrigued
0:16:32at what one may use SharePlay for.
0:16:35And I could imagine some scenarios,
0:16:38but I got a few that were additional.
0:16:40Will you allow me to read from the listener base?
0:16:44I'll go through this pretty quickly.
0:16:46- Will allow it, yeah.
0:16:47- Okay, so JD, who had a very special story
0:16:50in Connected Pro today, and a friend,
0:16:52used it to watch Disney+ shows together
0:16:55when they're released.
0:16:56Rod uses it to listen to music
0:16:58with his mom, who lives far away.
0:17:00Chris uses it for date night.
0:17:03Chris, who we previously mentioned in the show today.
0:17:05When his partner was traveling,
0:17:07they watched a movie together.
0:17:09Sigmund has used it for big screen bilingual group viewing of TV shows using
0:17:14iOS devices to deliver audio tracks of choice. What does that mean?
0:17:18I don't know, but that's what Sigmund told me. Big screen.
0:17:23So here's what I'm thinking. Sigmund meant of like a bunch of people.
0:17:26Oh yeah. Right. Yeah. Watching an Apple TV show at the same time.
0:17:30I don't know what big screen, I didn't really know what that part meant,
0:17:33but big screen. But like people could choose their own language, right?
0:17:38- Yeah, of course you can.
0:17:39- Yeah, yeah.
0:17:40- And so everyone could watch it at the same time,
0:17:42but they get their audio tracks that they want.
0:17:46Ricky watches movies with their friend
0:17:47who lives across the US from them.
0:17:50Daniel uses it to watch TikTok videos
0:17:52with their sister who just moved away.
0:17:54Alex uses it to watch TV+ shows
0:17:56with their partner who lives in another country.
0:17:58Kent uses it as a way to hack around Fitness Plus
0:18:02so they can do fitness workouts with their partner
0:18:05in the same room and both get the activity for it.
0:18:10Claire uses it to share music with their partner, who
0:18:13lives far away, of course, and really appreciates
0:18:15the shared audio controls, like play and pause,
0:18:18so you can actually sync up properly.
0:18:22They also use it with a group of friends
0:18:23to do working together hangout type situations.
0:18:26So like a bunch of people on a call,
0:18:28someone might put a video on or whatever,
0:18:30but they're all hanging out.
0:18:31Eric uses it for Fitness Plus and working out
0:18:35with their daughter while traveling.
0:18:36And Cade watches TikToks with their partner
0:18:39who lives far away and also have a date night movies.
0:18:41So there's a lot of overlap in these,
0:18:43but that was every single person in our audience
0:18:48that wanted to contact me about how they use SharePlay.
0:18:52I saved all of them and that is them.
0:18:55Most of these I could have imagined
0:18:57as like a thing that people would wanna do.
0:18:59I just didn't know how much of a great experience
0:19:01it would have been,
0:19:02but everybody that contacted me seemed pretty positive about SharePlay as a
0:19:07technology. So it's definitely making people happy, you know,
0:19:11um, but I don't, I still, having read all of that,
0:19:15I just don't think I would go through the aggravation of using it because
0:19:20all of these things, right? So like, let's imagine we're watching a movie,
0:19:24right? I don't need to be on a FaceTime call for the whole time.
0:19:27Like I don't need that.
0:19:30- That's the thing that gets me to like,
0:19:35these use cases are great,
0:19:37and I'm really happy that people send these over.
0:19:40Maybe it's not just for us and that's fine.
0:19:43And I think that was sort of my conclusion
0:19:45from when I covered SharePlay.
0:19:47It's not for me and it's fine.
0:19:49I understand why other people will love it.
0:19:51I just don't wanna watch a whole thing on FaceTime.
0:19:55Again, I would have two years ago, I wouldn't now,
0:19:58But hey, if it works great for you, excellent.
0:20:02We'll see.
0:20:03- I wouldn't have two years ago.
0:20:05It wasn't, you know, this isn't even just a pandemic thing
0:20:07to me.
0:20:08It's like, this is just not a way that I could imagine
0:20:11wanting to consume content.
0:20:13But I like that there are people that are using it.
0:20:16'Cause honestly, my assumption is I was gonna get
0:20:19like one tweet throughout the whole week.
0:20:21And I got a bunch.
0:20:22And so I thought that was pretty great.
0:20:24But it's still just not, I think Steven,
0:20:28you obviously went on last week's episode.
0:20:30Have you ever used SharePlay?
0:20:32- I have not.
0:20:34- No, okay.
0:20:35- Maybe you and I can watch a movie together.
0:20:37- I don't want to.
0:20:38I don't want to do it.
0:20:41I like the idea, right?
0:20:43If you could do all of the stuff
0:20:46without like the needing to be a,
0:20:49like a persistent act of FaceTime call.
0:20:52Like I like the idea of like shared experiences,
0:20:55playing and pausing at the same time
0:20:56and all that kind of stuff.
0:20:58I would be just as happy with an iMessage thread that runs.
0:21:02To me, the idea of me and Steven and Federico
0:21:06were gonna watch a movie,
0:21:08and for the whole time I'm watching a movie,
0:21:10I can see what they're, I can see them?
0:21:13Like that's odd to me.
0:21:15That is weird.
0:21:17I'm happy that people like it.
0:21:19I mean, what it does feel like
0:21:21from most of these situations is it does feel like
0:21:24like an intimate experience, right?
0:21:27that like, you know, like people tend to just use shareplay
0:21:29with a loved one, like or their partner or whatever.
0:21:32And like, that makes sense to me.
0:21:34But even then, like if me and Adina watch a movie,
0:21:36I don't look at her face for the entire movie.
0:21:38You know what I mean?
0:21:39It's just weird to have the face in front of me.
0:21:40- That would be creepy.
0:21:42That would be creepy, yeah.
0:21:44You're watching a movie and just staring at her.
0:21:46- Maybe I'm watching movies, Raul.
0:21:47- Maybe you are.
0:21:49- That is my shareplay.
0:21:50- I wanted to touch on this really weird story
0:21:53that was out at the end of last week,
0:21:55where Porsche, their CEO, Oliver Bloom,
0:21:59has this quote about discussing
0:22:02exciting common projects with Apple.
0:22:05What, what does this mean?
0:22:09What are you talking about?
0:22:10They are quote, "on the same wavelength,
0:22:13and managers in Porsche traveled to the US
0:22:15late last year to discuss joint projects with Apple."
0:22:18Here's another quote.
0:22:19"We already have Apple CarPlay.
0:22:20We will expand on that."
0:22:22- I mean, this feels pretty cut and dry to me.
0:22:24- You think it's like the car keys stuff or whatever?
0:22:26- It's car keys.
0:22:27- Car keys.
0:22:29- Like I think people see this,
0:22:31a bunch of people in the Discord are telling me
0:22:32FaceTime audio and SharePlay works together.
0:22:34Fine, my point still remains.
0:22:36I don't need no current active audio call,
0:22:38let alone a video call.
0:22:39- So now instead of seeing another person's face,
0:22:42you can hear them breathing as you watch a movie.
0:22:44- I don't need it.
0:22:45I just don't need it.
0:22:46Anyway, this is like one of those classic
0:22:48a CEO got overexcited and said a thing,
0:22:51and then everyone's like,
0:22:52"Oh, this must mean Apple and Porsche
0:22:54working on a car together which like I just don't it just doesn't marry up to
0:22:59me when when Apple has an active project that not a lot of car companies are
0:23:06involved in and could get more involved in which is the car keys thing that you
0:23:10mentioned Steven you know like using your phone as your as your car key yeah
0:23:14that's because you know if the expectation is that some point Apple
0:23:20will want to make a car or have some kind of car project.
0:23:24I don't imagine it's going to be with Porsche.
0:23:27It's too high end, right?
0:23:30Like, yes, Apple was a luxury brand or whatever,
0:23:32but they will still want to make a car that people can buy
0:23:36or whatever, you know, if they're ever going to do this.
0:23:40I don't think Porsche is the right place for that.
0:23:42Unless, I mean, I don't know Porsche's corporate structure.
0:23:44I'll look at that in a minute.
0:23:45Maybe they own one of the smaller car brands, but whatever.
0:23:48And also like there are current reports suggesting
0:23:51that the car team has been disbanded
0:23:53currently again anyway.
0:23:55- I think the car project just anytime anything gets close
0:23:59to it, it makes news because it's such a weird story.
0:24:03And that it has been seemingly from what we know
0:24:07on and off again over the years.
0:24:10And I think the most recent thing we heard
0:24:13about its organization is that Kevin Lynch was in charge
0:24:15of it and maybe he's doing another big reset or maybe it's really dead this time and that
0:24:21was kind of his decision.
0:24:23But it's just so unlike other things we hear about the company, I think that it makes the
0:24:30news anytime anything is like remotely in its orbit.
0:24:35Porsche is owned by Volkswagen so it makes even less sense.
0:24:39Like Apple more likely works a Volkswagen than Porsche project to build a car.
0:24:44Plus, Eddy Q's on the board of Ferrari.
0:24:46- So, they're not gonna work with Ferrari
0:24:48to make a car either, I can tell you that.
0:24:50- No, no, but maybe he would be more willing
0:24:53to work with a more normal car brand
0:24:55than another supercar brand.
0:24:56Anyways, I got big news for bootcamp users.
0:25:01- Oh, wow, all those people.
0:25:03- Yeah, Apple updates bootcamp
0:25:05with studio display drivers for Windows users.
0:25:08So, if you have an Apple studio display
0:25:12and you use bootcamp, it apparently will work.
0:25:15There's no center stage or spatial audio.
0:25:17So bootcamp still exists.
0:25:20For now. Okay, well, hold on.
0:25:21What if, what if, what happens?
0:25:25If you try to use a FaceTime video call
0:25:30on Windows via bootcamp on the web,
0:25:36because you can do FaceTime calls on the web.
0:25:38Oh, you can on the web.
0:25:40can on the web so in that case will center stage kick in? I don't think center
0:25:45stage works on the web version of FaceTime. That's too bad. I put this in
0:25:49here mainly because I want to talk about boot camp and how it's super dead it's
0:25:54only on Intel Macs this 9 to 5 Mac article is worth noting that at least
0:25:58for now boot camp remains available only for Macs with Intel processors. I don't
0:26:03see Apple bringing this back even if Windows on ARM was a relevant thing
0:26:08which it's really not at this point. There was also a story where someone was
0:26:15working to get a studio display working on their PC and it required jumping
0:26:23through all these hoops. I don't know who would buy this thing just expecting it
0:26:27to work with their PC but apparently this person did and you have to like
0:26:34jump through a Thunderbolt card and all sorts of stuff it's it's pretty wacky.
0:26:37I could imagine someone wanting to be like, I have two computers, I want one monitor.
0:26:44Will this one be able to suffice? You know what I mean? And so like, I think it would
0:26:49be weird for somebody to buy this to use with their PC. But I could imagine someone who's
0:26:55buying it to use with both their Mac and their PC, you know? So I guess it's good that it
0:27:00it so okay it works well with boot camp right but does it work well with a PC then?
0:27:09It's got to be a PC that supports Thunderbolt with not very many
0:27:18this this Justin the guy here with this post end up using a PCIe Thunderbolt
0:27:24expansion card and basically you run video from your GPU into this card and
0:27:30then back out of this card via Thunderbolt. That worked. They do
0:27:35recommend installing the boot camp drivers to make it work better and it is
0:27:40still kind of broken. I would imagine that if boot camp wasn't a thing like
0:27:46Apple wouldn't even bother with this at all but because boot camp is a
0:27:50thing you can get these drivers and and run it but it's a bit of a mess and his
0:27:55point is like it should be easier I don't but again I don't see why you
0:27:59expected it to be maybe it should be but making it Thunderbolt based already
0:28:04rules out a lot of the Windows world just kind of how it is no no it doesn't
0:28:09make any sense to me like because you it can work you've just got to have
0:28:15Thunderbolt on your motherboard, which is a thing.
0:28:19So you can get PCs with Thunderbolt,
0:28:22it's a thing you can do.
0:28:24So you just don't buy a Thunderbolt display
0:28:28if your PC doesn't have a Thunderbolt connection.
0:28:30Like that doesn't seem like a complicated thing to me.
0:28:34- It's just not as, you know,
0:28:36if they'd use DisplayPort or something,
0:28:38we wouldn't be having this conversation,
0:28:39but that's not how Apple rolls.
0:28:41- But why would they?
0:28:42- Yeah, I mean, Thunderbolt is better
0:28:44because it can do all of these things,
0:28:46even if the trade-off is a lot of people don't have it.
0:28:50- It would make no sense for me to Apple to be like,
0:28:52we need to make sure that this display
0:28:54is useful to the wider market.
0:28:57Like, no, you can just go and buy like any display
0:28:59from any company and use that one instead.
0:29:03Like, I think this is one of those just like arguments
0:29:06for the sake of having it,
0:29:08as opposed to actually there being any logic to it.
0:29:10- Yeah, I can get down with that.
0:29:13Do you guys ever try bootcamp?
0:29:15Yeah, I have some bootcamp memories from 10, 11 years ago,
0:29:2120, like, 2010 or 2011.
0:29:23Basically, I remember playing some--
0:29:26don't ask me why--
0:29:28but some Fallout 3 on my old MacBook Pro via bootcamp.
0:29:34And I remember that it ran horribly.
0:29:37And at the time, I couldn't figure out
0:29:39how to connect a gaming controller to my Mac.
0:29:42And so I think I was playing with the Magic Mouse and keyboard, probably.
0:29:46Like a true gamer.
0:29:47Or the Magic Track.
0:29:48[laughter]
0:29:49Like a true gamer.
0:29:50Like a true PC gamer.
0:29:53But that was horrible.
0:29:54So that was my bootcamp memory.
0:29:56And I guess another bootcamp memory is getting it set up for friends who got a Mac,
0:30:03but also needed to have like a Windows fallback for things like programs that they were using at the university at the time
0:30:10that didn't have a Mac OS equivalent.
0:30:12And again, in 2010, 2011, web apps like we have today
0:30:17just were not a thing.
0:30:18So if school or your job will give you a Windows application
0:30:26that you could only use on Windows,
0:30:28and if you didn't have a Windows machine,
0:30:29you would be out of luck.
0:30:31And so I remember setting up a boot camp on my friends' Mac
0:30:34books.
0:30:36But that was that.
0:30:38I used it for like two days with Fallout 3 and I remember that it was just terrible,
0:30:45terrible performance.
0:30:47I never did it. I know I looked into it and I think just the complicated nature of it
0:30:53all just I didn't bother with it because I had no real need for it. It was more like
0:30:58a curiosity than anything else. I'm sure you did, Steven. I'm just like, "Gee, even just
0:31:03for the fun of it, right?"
0:31:04Yeah, I mean I did it back like a long time ago when I was consulting full-time because I would need Windows
0:31:10For some things and it was easier to carry one laptop than two
0:31:14But I also did the trick where you could use I think Parallels and Fusion both have this
0:31:19I forget which one I was using at the time
0:31:21Where it could boot your boot camp partition as a virtual machine
0:31:26So you could run it as a VM or fully boot it into boot camp
0:31:31But like I forgot that that's that's cool. That's cool that it could do that. This was like Windows Vista
0:31:37Windows I don't think it was Windows 7 yet. This was a long time ago
0:31:41But and you know, I know people use it for games and stuff
0:31:44but I would imagine the percentage of Mac users who ever used boot camp has to be pretty small or
0:31:50Used it for more than a week because it is kind of annoying that it's fully separate and
0:31:57Having yeah something in a VM where like you can still use your Mac app side by side like that's pretty nice
0:32:02I think I stopped at the part where it's like you have to make a partition and I just don't think that I had enough
0:32:08storage space to like
0:32:10Because I know that I know I would have done all of this on my first iMac
0:32:13Right because that was when I was most like tinkery because I was like learning it all and stuff
0:32:18and I
0:32:21Just know that like I would have got the base one, right?
0:32:24So it would have had whatever the base storage was and the idea of like
0:32:28Partitioning the hard drive for something. I wasn't sure if was actually gonna be a thing that I cared about for more than a week
0:32:34I think that was where I ended up bailing out on it. Yeah, I remember in the early days there were people
0:32:40Like trying to get windows running on those Intel Macs because boot camp wasn't there on day one
0:32:48Like I remember reading these blog posts of people like figuring out how to run out those like white plastic
0:32:52iMacs like you had you know doing all this wild firmware stuff and then
0:32:56eventually Apple just had a solution for people. Did they say they would or did it
0:33:04just appear one day? Like I don't remember when they announced the Intel
0:33:07iMac did they say that there was boot camp like a thing that they announced? I
0:33:12don't think it was but I could be wrong. Can I ask you a semi-unrelated question?
0:33:20Have you been on Twitter these past few days?
0:33:23A little bit.
0:33:25That's not a question.
0:33:26But I wanted to check, because like, have you seen, you mentioned VMs.
0:33:29Have you seen what Steve Transmith has been tweeting about VMware and macOS?
0:33:34Can you tell me what that is about?
0:33:37Is he running them all on a Raspberry Pi or some other machine or something?
0:33:40I think so.
0:33:42I don't know.
0:33:44So but what is that anyway?
0:33:45So you can virtualize the latest version of macOS now?
0:33:49I guess so.
0:33:50- Interesting.
0:33:51- Yeah, oh, no, he's running it on the Intel NUC.
0:33:54- Okay, huh.
0:33:56- I'll put a link in the show notes
0:34:01and in Discord of his thread, so you can see that.
0:34:05- Yeah, it's ESXC, what's the name?
0:34:09ESXi, ES.
0:34:12- Yes, that's it.
0:34:13(laughs)
0:34:16- That one, so that one.
0:34:17So you can virtualize my,
0:34:18Why would you virtualize Mac OS?
0:34:20Well, I guess why would you virtualize Mac OS?
0:34:22- 'Cause you wanna run Tiger.
0:34:23- To try Mac OS things?
0:34:25- 'Cause you wanna have a cool tweet thread.
0:34:28- Steven, why don't you also do this
0:34:30and like virtualize all the versions of Mac OS?
0:34:32- I have a bunch of them set up.
0:34:35What happens to them when I switch
0:34:37to an Apple Silicon machine?
0:34:38I'm not sure.
0:34:39- I don't know, it kind of feels to me like
0:34:41there is a project in here for you
0:34:44to do like one specific thing
0:34:46on all the versions of macOS that you have around,
0:34:50whether they're running on, like, I don't know,
0:34:52maybe this sounds silly, but like the same text document
0:34:56as seen on all the possible versions of macOS.
0:35:00- Well, you've done that.
0:35:00That's the screenshot library, right?
0:35:02- That's the sort of, yeah, but it would be cool
0:35:05to see it in action on like an actual machine or a VM.
0:35:09- Oh. - You know?
0:35:10Not just a screenshot, but like the whole, yeah.
0:35:14You know the screenshot library was all taken on real hardware.
0:35:18None of that was virtualized.
0:35:19Nice.
0:35:20It took forever.
0:35:21Such a hipster, man.
0:35:23I like my bits running on authentic G4s.
0:35:27I need a pixel accurate resolution.
0:35:30Pixel perfect untouched screenshot
0:35:35as the engineers intended.
0:35:38Steven wanted to wait the amount of time
0:35:40it would take to load everything,
0:35:41not have it load more quickly
0:35:42because it was on modern hardware.
0:35:44Yeah.
0:35:44Uh, my lion screenshots were originally not retina.
0:35:48And I didn't have a retina machine that would run lion for a long time.
0:35:52And then I did, and I remade those and re uploaded them because lion was the, the,
0:35:58oh, the first iOS that shipped like with that 2012 Mac, but pro that first run
0:36:05on machine back to the Mac, that was, that was the event before that.
0:36:09but in that era.
0:36:11- With Craig Federighi's hands shaking as he's-
0:36:14- He was demoing line then yes.
0:36:16The MacBook Pro I think had been announced before that,
0:36:18but yeah, he was nervous.
0:36:19They gave him good stuff now.
0:36:21- No, no, no, no.
0:36:24You can't just say something like that
0:36:26and then we will move on from it.
0:36:27- Hey, maybe it's like a ginger tea or something, you know?
0:36:31- Yeah, he's just having a little tea.
0:36:33What I imagine it is,
0:36:34is he's had lots and lots of coaching on presentations
0:36:37and he's way better than he used to be.
0:36:39Yes, if you really if you really want to have like a good time go watch the
0:36:44introduction of the X serve because a very young Tim Cook comes out to talk about enterprise customer support and
0:36:51It is the driest thing you've ever seen. It's so bad
0:36:54This is new to me - can I just search for YouTube?
0:36:59X serve
0:37:02introduction. It was like 2001 or 2002 or something. 2002.
0:37:07Steve Jobs introduces Xserve 2002. Is this one of those things where like Tim
0:37:13and Johnny and Steve were all sitting together on stalls and talking? Is it like one of those
0:37:17kinds of presentations? It looks like one of those.
0:37:20Yeah, it's Phil and Steve and Tim at the end. They're answering press questions.
0:37:26Because I know Tim was there for the iPhone 4 thing as well, I think.
0:37:29Yeah. If memory serves. Like another one of these
0:37:31kinds of things used to show up in these. But if you scrub around like find a Tim Cook section
0:37:36and it's pretty unexciting. Wow it's very young also. His hair's like really brown here I've just
0:37:44never really considered him as having hair color. I feel like it's kind of gray on top maybe, maybe
0:37:49it's just the lighting. He looks so young here wow! Yeah. Wow he's not wearing glasses yet,
0:37:56He likes to wear a watch though, we know that much.
0:37:58- He's a young man.
0:37:59- Wow, that's amazing.
0:38:01- Famous people age too, you know?
0:38:06Like I don't think, yeah I think about these things.
0:38:09Like famous people, like celebrities,
0:38:11they also do normal things.
0:38:12- And now Tim Cook's jacked.
0:38:14He wasn't jacked on this video.
0:38:15- No, I just unmuted a section and got to like
0:38:18a little Tim Cook comedy routine part.
0:38:21You call the software company, and what do they say?
0:38:24Go to the hardware company.
0:38:25the hardware company what do they say and it's like all right i'm done with tim cooke's comedy here
0:38:29i'm fine thank you yeah to explain to me what customer support is like tim this is before
0:38:34maybe this is like that's like he's that's his origin story for customer satisfaction
0:38:39it's like none of these customers are satisfied and i'm not happy about it that's right change
0:38:42it today maybe he'll bring back the x-serve i thought federico was going to ask stephen
0:38:46a different question and i actually do want both of your opinions on this okay it seems to be that
0:38:52everyone's really upset that you can't remove the power cable from the back of
0:38:59the studio display. An interesting thing to be upset about for sure. Everyone's
0:39:04really upset about this. I'm upset about it. Okay tell me why. I want to know why
0:39:09you're upset about it because I don't know why I... I know okay I know why
0:39:14realistically people would say that you could be upset about it. Yeah. But me Myke
0:39:19Hurley has never run into a situation where this has been a problem for me so
0:39:22So I would like you to explain what I haven't either like I've never damaged a power cable on anything
0:39:27I don't think but in a 1600 our display
0:39:31the power cables should be
0:39:34Removable if it's damaged or if you need a longer one or a shorter one if it's like a if it's a standard power connector
0:39:40So there's like the repairability angle, but it isn't a standard power connector, right? Like that's the point
0:39:45Well, I don't know because it's stuck in there point. That's a good point though. Like if people have removed it
0:39:51You can yank it out. I saw a gif of Linus doing it, but yeah
0:39:55It's also from the company that made a magnetic charger for the iMac.
0:40:00Yeah, that's weird. It's weird that they didn't bring it over to here
0:40:02I guess it's a cost thing
0:40:04But like that is the part where I'm like
0:40:05I don't know why they spent all that time and effort on the iMac one if
0:40:10They're only gonna use it on this one machine. I don't know but at the same time
0:40:14It's like this is just one of those things where I think it's being blown out of proportion a little bit
0:40:20For like the actual care that people have over it, you know
0:40:23I have no doubt that I'm gonna now hear from everyone who cares about this, but like I just say like
0:40:29If I do something and break the kid like the cables broken
0:40:33I'll just take it to the Apple Store and pay for a new one
0:40:35I don't know
0:40:36You know what?
0:40:36I mean like I but all I know is I've never had to do this ever in my whole life and I'm sure the power cable
0:40:42will be under the
0:40:44You know any accidental damage clause or Apple care or whatever?
0:40:47And I'm sure if it's not they'll have just a because it is removable
0:40:50They have a special tool to do it like go look at the 9 to 5 Mac link in the show notes
0:40:54It's hilarious the tool that they're using to like pull the cable out. What is that?
0:40:59It just it just gives more more force so you can pop it right out
0:41:03It's just it's just like something that makes it needlessly complicated. Like if we're just a standard power cable
0:41:10It's just simpler for everybody. I agree with Apple doesn't have to go around fixing them. It's picking off cables and stuff
0:41:17What happened to the self-repair store that they announced months ago?
0:41:23I think I asked someone about this recently, like, similar to you. I don't remember where it was.
0:41:28I think we talked about an upgrade when I was on, maybe?
0:41:31Maybe, yeah. And basically, the thought that I ended up coming to is, they announced it, so they did it before the right to repair legislation.
0:41:40And it's like, it will happen. It was supposed to be early 2020.
0:41:44We didn't say when.
0:41:46I think they said early next year. I think early has passed at this point, but nothing has happened.
0:41:53Yeah, not yet.
0:41:54Because I still got that screen I want to replace, you know?
0:41:57Well, how early is... early, you know? Isn't that the title of the of us mates album also?
0:42:07No, that's how soon is now.
0:42:08I saw your phone screen when you hear Myke, it's real bad.
0:42:11It's terrible. Not cracked though, you know?
0:42:15It is cracked. It is 100% cracked.
0:42:16No, Apple says not cracked, so no.
0:42:19So you've seen it in person, Steven.
0:42:21Yeah, I ran my finger over it and was sad.
0:42:25Did you cut yourself in doing that?
0:42:26Is it that bad?
0:42:28Almost.
0:42:29It's not that bad.
0:42:29You can feel the deep scratches, not cracks.
0:42:33You can feel the glass?
0:42:35Oh, God, okay.
0:42:37No, it's fine though.
0:42:38Definitely not accidental damage replacement worthy.
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0:44:07Mac studio time
0:44:10You go in no, no going yet. Not yet. Not yet, but I'm excited about it soon soon, but not yet
0:44:19I'm sure people have seen MK Beach's video. We'll have a link in the notes
0:44:24his takeaways the m1 ultra is
0:44:28Not as fast as his 28 core Intel Mac Pro and absolutely everything and some things it totally is or even faster
0:44:34But also that machine is like tens of thousands of dollars and is the highest in Intel Mac ever made
0:44:40So against my 12 core Mac Pro it's going the m1 max is gonna beat it and almost everything
0:44:45I think I'm worried about is the fan and so
0:44:49In his video it's mentioned and Jason talked about it someone upgrade and I think in his review
0:44:56that you can hear the
0:44:59Mac studio all the time and I had kind of assumed that
0:45:04Because I was getting the m1 max and not the ultra like one reason I did that was
0:45:09It should be silent because the chassis built for both and yes, the heatsink is different between the two
0:45:14but I expected not to hear any fan noise and
0:45:18It seems like that may not be the case now
0:45:22Now Jason says it's not a big deal and it may not be, but I'm just curious about how
0:45:26that's going to play out for me.
0:45:28I don't understand why there is a persistent fanspin, it doesn't make sense to me, in the
0:45:36Macs version.
0:45:39Because my MacBook Pro doesn't do it.
0:45:43Yeah that's the thing that's really the most interesting, this is the same chip and a laptop
0:45:49will be silent until it's really under load. And I expect like any machine I've had, except
0:45:54for my Mac Pro, if I put it under load, I'm going to hear it right. I could hear the iMac
0:45:59Pro on occasion. I've never heard the Mac Pro ever. And now it's basically like level
0:46:05with my head where it sits at the end of my desk. But at idle, I really expected this
0:46:11thing to be completely silent. And maybe there'll be maybe it's not a big deal. I don't expect
0:46:18to be loud enough that like my microphone would hear it.
0:46:20But if I'm in here and it's quiet and I hear it,
0:46:24that may be annoying.
0:46:25'Cause this thing is going to sit on the desk,
0:46:27it'll be behind my display.
0:46:29Pretty close, right?
0:46:30And in a machine that's clearly the expectation,
0:46:34like in all of Apple's press stuff in the Apple Store,
0:46:37so I went to go see this in the Apple Store the other day,
0:46:39it's just right there, like next,
0:46:41like right under the display,
0:46:42kind of above where your mouse or track pad would be.
0:46:45And to have something that close to you
0:46:47and it make noise all the time,
0:46:49like that could be frustrating
0:46:50if you're sensitive to that sort of thing.
0:46:53I don't know.
0:46:54- So a couple of questions.
0:46:55One is from Zack.
0:46:56Does your Mac Pro not make noise all the time?
0:46:59- I cannot, the fans always spin.
0:47:01They are inaudible at their resting rate.
0:47:04- So I guess they're big, right?
0:47:05They're so big that I guess they can spin
0:47:08and they can spin more quietly and move the air through.
0:47:10- They're not spinning real fast.
0:47:11- Okay, my second question.
0:47:14You don't have to have it that close though, right?
0:47:16Like you could put that where you have your current Mac Pro
0:47:19if you just got a cable long enough, right?
0:47:21- Yeah, and I have a long Thunderbolt cable
0:47:23that the studio display or the Mac studio
0:47:27and the pro display will be plugged into each other.
0:47:29So I could have it further away if it's an issue.
0:47:32We'll see, as I get into it,
0:47:34I'm gonna talk about kind of my setup situation in a minute.
0:47:37I have a lot of other stuff to contend with on my desk now
0:47:40and it's not all quite dialed in where it's gonna go.
0:47:44But I just found it interesting
0:47:45that Apple clearly designed this for better or for worse
0:47:48to be out in the open on the desk.
0:47:50And like in the Apple store, could not hear it,
0:47:53but you know, people are milling about,
0:47:54there's like background music and stuff.
0:47:56So I'd imagine that if you're in an office environment
0:48:00or like a studio with other people, it may be different.
0:48:03But if you're like me and you work in a building
0:48:05by yourself all day, every day,
0:48:07maybe it'd be a little noticeable.
0:48:09I'm definitely gonna follow up on that.
0:48:11- Maybe it's like you can hear it,
0:48:13but you don't notice it if that makes sense, right?
0:48:15'Cause there's something wrong.
0:48:16It's just intriguing to me, right?
0:48:18'Cause obviously they built it this way
0:48:19because of the ultra and it needing, I guess,
0:48:24more constant airflow 'cause of the amount of power
0:48:28it's drawing and stuff.
0:48:29But it's just intriguing to me that like,
0:48:32it works exactly the same with a chip that doesn't need it.
0:48:36- Yeah, like I would expect the firmware on the two
0:48:39to act differently with the fans.
0:48:41- And like, and the reason I say this, right?
0:48:42because I set it on upgrade 2 right it's just just a reiteration I have a MacBook Pro and it has an
0:48:47M1 Max in it and I don't hear the fan like there is no consistent fan noise from my laptop like all
0:48:56the time this is not a thing so this chip doesn't need it same as like there are some M1 Max that
0:49:02have fans in them and some that don't but they still have the same amount of performance but
0:49:06for whatever reason I guess it's like so they can run at high speed longer I guess.
0:49:11There are fans in my MacBook Pro they'll come on when it's needed.
0:49:15Just the idea of there being like if you just open Safari and got two tabs open the fans go
0:49:22and it's like I don't know if you need to do this. It's an intriguing thing where it's like
0:49:26clearly the system works that way because they have put so many fans in it to deal with the
0:49:32really heavy chip and again it's like they're building these machines now the
0:49:37chassis for like they're gonna be around for like five years yeah ten years right
0:49:41so like they know their roadmap over the next few years and they know we need
0:49:45headroom right this is where they've gotten themselves stuck in the past
0:49:49right like headroom is something they need yeah there's no thermal corner
0:49:52here hopefully so they know that like they're gonna have a chip in a few years
0:49:55it's three times more powerful for let's just say just pick a number out of the
0:49:59than the current M1 Ultra. So you've got to have the headroom on it. But it is still intriguing
0:50:05to me of like, why does the fan need to move constantly? I just, it's an intriguing decision.
0:50:14It wouldn't turn me off it by the way. Like if I had ordered one of these things, because
0:50:18I don't care about this kind of stuff. Like, there are always noises like in my studio,
0:50:24right? Like I can always hear a noise of some description. Like I have a fridge in the studio,
0:50:28a small one but that always makes a sound right because it's a fridge it doesn't bother
0:50:32me at all like I'm not one of these types of nerds are you one of these types of nerds
0:50:38Stephen like this is no criticism to you but like are you a like can't deal with a fan
0:50:43kind of nerd?
0:50:44I don't know I mean like like right now the heat is in my running in my office it's extremely
0:50:52quiet I can hear it if I think about it right so we'll see I'm not worried about it I can't
0:50:58I'm just curious to how it plays out.
0:51:01Anyways, there was also a lot of ink spilled
0:51:05about the SSD modules.
0:51:08- This has been like four separate news cycles.
0:51:12- I know.
0:51:13So there was a YouTube video
0:51:16and then a bunch of articles about it.
0:51:18Someone took a part of Mac Studio and said,
0:51:20"Oh my gosh, there's additional slots in here
0:51:23"for SSD modules.
0:51:24"The way the storage works on this machine
0:51:26is like it works in my Mac Pro, where there are slots and you have the modules that clip
0:51:32into them. Now all of the controllers and all like the brains are on package like on
0:51:40the system on the chip or in my Mac Pro in the T2, where the SSDs are really just storage
0:51:45pools, right? The modules aren't. They're not like an SSD you may buy from Samsung and
0:51:51like put in a case, right?
0:51:54It's just a component.
0:51:55Apple says there's nothing user upgradeable
0:51:58inside the Mac Studio.
0:51:59If you watch this video, you have to take the thing
0:52:01pretty far apart before you even get to these.
0:52:04Some people thought, oh, hey, this is great.
0:52:06I could buy one and add additional storage later.
0:52:09Maybe someone like Mac sales or other companies
0:52:12would make modules that would fit into this.
0:52:15Or maybe it'll be like what Apple does
0:52:18with the iMac Pro RAM upgrade programs.
0:52:21Some people have probably forgotten about this.
0:52:22I had until I was putting this together
0:52:24where if you have an iMac Pro
0:52:26and you want more RAM, put it in it, that RAM is slotted.
0:52:28You can just put more RAM in it,
0:52:30but it's inside the machine
0:52:32and you can take it to Apple and they'll charge you
0:52:36and they take it apart and put more memory in it for you.
0:52:39So lots of questions about what this means,
0:52:41what these slots could do, why they are there.
0:52:45And this ended up breaking in the news
0:52:49like a few days later.
0:52:49I was on vacation, so I wrote a little bit about it,
0:52:52but over the weekend, I was talking to some people,
0:52:55we all kind of came to the agreement that our guess is
0:52:58that all Mac CDOs have the number of slots required
0:53:02for the eight terabyte model,
0:53:05and maybe the four terabyte model as well,
0:53:07where they need additional slots
0:53:09because the form factor of module
0:53:12that Apple is using is small.
0:53:15There was a YouTube video where someone tried taking
0:53:18a Mac Pro SSD module and putting in the Mac Studio
0:53:22and it won't fit.
0:53:23It's like physically a smaller component.
0:53:26And so they need these additional slots populated
0:53:31for the higher end SKUs
0:53:33and they don't wanna build two versions of the logic board.
0:53:35So some Mac studios just come with these empty slots, right?
0:53:40It makes sense, right?
0:53:43It's an efficient way of doing this
0:53:45from Apple's perspective
0:53:46of building a bunch of these things.
0:53:48But then someone took apart two Mac studios
0:53:50and put the modules from both of them into one machine.
0:53:55- I'll show you.
0:53:56- You won't let me upgrade.
0:54:00I'll just buy a second computer
0:54:02and steal the storage out of it.
0:54:03What an efficient and economical way of doing this.
0:54:08That machine refused to boot, freaked out.
0:54:10Because just like on the T2, like in my Mac Pro,
0:54:15that I'm looking at now, lovingly,
0:54:17or like the last 27-inch iMac and some other machines,
0:54:22the SSDs are tied to the system
0:54:28and they're encrypted by that T2 chip.
0:54:31And in the Apple Silicon world,
0:54:33a very similar process takes place
0:54:35where the storage seems to be married to the logic board.
0:54:42In fact, when I upgraded the SSDs in my Mac Pro,
0:54:47I think I had it with, I forget what I ordered it with,
0:54:49maybe two terabytes of internal storage
0:54:51and upgraded to eight with Apple's parts.
0:54:54I had to put the machine in DFU mode
0:54:57and hook it up to another Mac and use Apple Configurator
0:55:00to like re-blast the drives.
0:55:02And let me tell y'all,
0:55:04is maybe the scariest thing I've ever done with a computer.
0:55:07This is like, if this doesn't work,
0:55:09or if the power goes out or anything goes wrong,
0:55:12My Mac Pro is in trouble and is gonna need to repair.
0:55:15Now, it's not saying Apple couldn't change this
0:55:17in the future, maybe in the future they'll have a program,
0:55:19maybe in the future Apple can figure it'd be updated
0:55:21to support this, but sort of the excitement people had
0:55:25of oh my gosh, there's slots in here,
0:55:26I can just add more storage, that's just not the way this is.
0:55:30And in the Apple Silicon era, it's really unclear
0:55:34what this will look like because so far,
0:55:36we've not had any Apple Silicon machines
0:55:38where this is possible, right?
0:55:39on all the M1 machines and the MacBook Pros,
0:55:44the storage isn't slotted like this, right?
0:55:47This is the first time we've seen this
0:55:49and so it's a little bit of an unknown,
0:55:52but definitely like very interesting to follow this
0:55:54as people were kind of working on it
0:55:55and discovering things over the week.
0:55:58- I think it's pretty fair to say
0:56:00that this is still not a device
0:56:02that Apple I believe will ever intend to be user serviceable.
0:56:06Like maybe you'll be able to take it
0:56:08to an Apple store one day
0:56:09and get more SSD put in it?
0:56:12- I think at best that's what this is.
0:56:14I don't think it would ever be something
0:56:17that you would like crack open
0:56:18and put drives in that you bought yourself.
0:56:21- It's like in the same way that it has been said
0:56:24that you can take a studio display
0:56:26and have them change your mounting mechanism.
0:56:27Like, you know, it's like, you can't do it,
0:56:30but Apple can do it.
0:56:32But this is all leading up to the inevitable of,
0:56:35well, what about the Mac?
0:56:36like will the Mac Pro be able to do the things the current one can do?
0:56:41Like this is the question, right?
0:56:43Because it's, as you say, not an easy process, what you did,
0:56:47but you are allowed to do it.
0:56:49Right.
0:56:49You, Steven Hackett, can go to Apple's website and buy some parts
0:56:53and open it up and check a bunch of boxes and say, yes, yes, yes,
0:56:58I definitely know what I'm doing and Apple's not going to take any--
0:57:02like I'm breaking my warranty or whatever it is you're saying.
0:57:06you know, by doing this, but you are allowed to do it.
0:57:09And that's going to be the question, right?
0:57:11Will that still be the case with 2022 Mac Pro
0:57:14or whatever it's going to be?
0:57:16- Yeah, who knows, right?
0:57:17We just don't know.
0:57:19Also the M1 Ultra chip is humongous.
0:57:21If you watch this video, the thing is huge.
0:57:25- It looks like a Threadripper.
0:57:26- It does.
0:57:27That's exactly what I thought.
0:57:28It looks like a Threadripper.
0:57:29Federico, are you excited about the possibility
0:57:32of Mac Studio SSD upgrades?
0:57:34- Well, I was thinking, I was thinking about this
0:57:36just a few minutes ago.
0:57:37And no, I'm not.
0:57:40- I'm happy to report, don't care.
0:57:42- Yeah, yeah, I mean,
0:57:45I, look, seriously, I understand why,
0:57:52especially because they presented it as a modular computer,
0:57:57a modular machine, but that's not sort of the modularity
0:58:00that they had in mind.
0:58:02- Well, so here's the thing,
0:58:03I put this on a Slack the other day.
0:58:05Modular equals outside, expandable equals inside.
0:58:10So I think when Apple says modular,
0:58:12they mean you can hook any display up to it.
0:58:15- So you know, when you say that, I know what you're saying.
0:58:18To me, those words should be reversed though,
0:58:20to make more sense, like to way that my brain works.
0:58:24- I don't actually disagree with you all.
0:58:26I just, I'm saying that's what a how Apple views it,
0:58:27I think.
0:58:28- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
0:58:29I know you mean like that's,
0:58:30you're kind of reading what you think they're saying.
0:58:33- Yeah.
0:58:34But my brain says it should be the other way around,
0:58:37but I hope that Apple at least do consider
0:58:39those two things to be different,
0:58:41and then that's how they explain it.
0:58:43- So yeah, I understand why people are, you know,
0:58:46annoyed that this is not possible.
0:58:49I still think, I don't know, maybe eventually,
0:58:52and if it's controlled in software,
0:58:54and if there's enough demand for it,
0:58:57I wouldn't be shocking if they open it up eventually.
0:59:00But also, I understand what Apple is saying,
0:59:03Like, yeah, you get this box, very powerful.
0:59:05Then if you wanna expand it,
0:59:08you buy more external SSDs or whatever,
0:59:11and you use Thunderbolt and it's fast enough.
0:59:13So I get it, but maybe it's time to move on
0:59:17from the idea of expandable anything.
0:59:20So you pick the RAM, you pick the storage, that's it.
0:59:24And enjoy this powerful and pricey computer.
0:59:27- So I wanna walk y'all through
0:59:29what my setup situation is gonna be.
0:59:33- Oh, okay.
0:59:34- So currently have a Mac Pro 12 core
0:59:39with eight terabyte boot drive.
0:59:43I have, you know what?
0:59:46You've already made fun of me for the amount of storage
0:59:48I have, I will not hear it again.
0:59:50- I wasn't gonna say anything, I just think it laughing.
0:59:53- I mean, you know.
0:59:55- I didn't say anything.
0:59:55- You're preserving human knowledge over there, so yeah.
1:00:00- That's right.
1:00:01It has a internal drive that I clone to every night.
1:00:06And then also has--
1:00:09How big is that one?
1:00:10Eight terabytes.
1:00:11So it's just the, it's gotta be the same, right?
1:00:16Gotta be able to boot from it.
1:00:17And then I have 16 terabytes for Time Machine.
1:00:22(laughing)
1:00:24How many?
1:00:25Why do you need 16 terabytes of Time Machine?
1:00:28Did you say 16?
1:00:3016.
1:00:31- 16. - I said 60.
1:00:33- 16. - You know?
1:00:34- I mean, you're not a 16. - What do you need 16 terabytes
1:00:36of time machine for, seriously?
1:00:38- Well, because it's double. - It's double.
1:00:39- It's double. - Oh, really?
1:00:40Is that the thing? - And it's, well, really,
1:00:42it's because the way it's put together,
1:00:43those are two eight terabyte drives that are striped.
1:00:47- Myke, that's what RAID 0 and RAID 1 mean, right?
1:00:52It's the all-- - Yeah.
1:00:54- Is that RAID 0? - I don't know.
1:00:56It's whatever, wherever it adds the capacity.
1:01:01- Is it RAID 1?
1:01:01- I always get it wrong.
1:01:02- I don't know.
1:01:03- And those drives are on a card, an internal PCI card.
1:01:07- On a card or on a cart?
1:01:09- I mean, it's on a card on a cart, right?
1:01:13- Yeah.
1:01:14If you think about it, everything is ultimately movable.
1:01:18We're on the spinning planet.
1:01:21Do you ever think about the permanence of objects?
1:01:26- Honestly, all the time.
1:01:28Like if the planet is spinning, is anything standing still?
1:01:31Like that is honestly like a genuinely interesting
1:01:36philosophical problem to have.
1:01:38Like if our reality is always in motion,
1:01:41is anything ever standing still?
1:01:43Hence why we can go back to, yeah,
1:01:45well, it's a long conversation.
1:01:47- I just had this the other day, so I was on vacation.
1:01:49I was out of town for a week and I came back into my office
1:01:52and there was a water bottle that I had left open.
1:01:55Like I left the top off of it.
1:01:57- Mm-hmm.
1:01:58- Like on the little coaster on my desk,
1:02:00I was like, man, that top stayed off a whole week.
1:02:03It was very strange, like a very like-
1:02:05- Why?
1:02:06Why is that weird?
1:02:07- I don't know, it's just like, it struck me.
1:02:08It's like, yeah, this has been in this same place
1:02:10while I've been gone and now I'm back
1:02:12and it's untouched, it hasn't moved.
1:02:14- But has it really been in the same place?
1:02:17That's the question.
1:02:18- Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
1:02:19I have a question for you.
1:02:20There's a lot of things in your studio.
1:02:24Why is that the only one that made you feel that way?
1:02:27I think because I've realized I left the cap off the bottle
1:02:30and it just like, it already had my attention.
1:02:32And then, you know, it was like one of those
1:02:34freshman dorm room when you're stoned kind of moments.
1:02:37Like, whoa, do things move, man?
1:02:40I thought you were gonna say something
1:02:41like the water had evaporated
1:02:43and that was what made you feel weird, you know?
1:02:45Okay.
1:02:46It's not that hot here yet.
1:02:47Anyways, keeping.
1:02:50But also like more broadly speaking,
1:02:52like you could even postulate to that.
1:02:55Like, if there's no control-- and I'm going to get deep here,
1:02:58Steven, but I think you will appreciate it.
1:03:00My point--
1:03:01Honestly, at the point you said postulate, I'm like,
1:03:03I'm done.
1:03:03I'm going to wait until they're finished.
1:03:05OK, but so like, if there's no control group
1:03:09to double check on our reality, what is reality even?
1:03:13Like, if reality is all that you see,
1:03:15but there's no other entity that evaluates the thing you see,
1:03:18reality might as well just be something
1:03:20that you've completely made up.
1:03:21I mean, how do I even know y'all are real,
1:03:23and I'm just not hallucinating the whole episode.
1:03:25- How do you know that the color green that I see
1:03:30is the same color green that you see, am I right?
1:03:33You know? - Precisely.
1:03:34Yeah, that's the problem.
1:03:36I'm surprised, Myke, you do not appreciate this.
1:03:38- Anyway.
1:03:39- I just...
1:03:41- Have you been traumatized by these questions before?
1:03:44- No, I was bullied by my family over questions like this.
1:03:47So, no, it's not, it's no problem.
1:03:50I did, I did a like a philosophy.
1:03:55Would this be philosophy?
1:03:58No.
1:03:59Yeah?
1:03:59- I mean, if you say it is.
1:04:00- Well, okay.
1:04:01I did like a philosophy, like,
1:04:04I guess we'll call it a minor kind of thing.
1:04:08And I went home and asked the questions to my family
1:04:11of the thing, or told them like, what they are,
1:04:13like, what did you do?
1:04:14And I told them the thing and they also made fun of me.
1:04:16- Oh, that's stupid.
1:04:17I'm sorry.
1:04:18That sucks.
1:04:19- It just is what it is.
1:04:20like it doesn't bother me we make fun of each other the three of us all the time
1:04:23it's just the way it goes but like I think that kind of beat it out of me of
1:04:27like stop sharing these sorts of people no no no you can't share with us you
1:04:32can I know but also I think sometimes I don't want to think about them all
1:04:38speaking of permanence of objects the produce black star is gonna stay
1:04:41obviously it's amazing and I love it if there's one thing that's not it's um
1:04:46It's that that thing is not moving. Okay. No, I'm using this display for another 20 years
1:04:52You know ten thousand dollars will make something permanent
1:04:56Cost no, that's how much the Mac Pro costs, right? I don't want to talk about that
1:05:01I mean yours is come on. I mean you got 164 terabytes of storage in it. It's like
1:05:05You know way over it now if I had an LG 5k still I'd be buying a studio display
1:05:12or maybe two of them, but Pro Display is awesome.
1:05:16- You have a better monitor, right?
1:05:17- Yeah, yeah, I'm not even remotely tempted by it.
1:05:20- You would be downgraded.
1:05:22- I have a Touch ID keyboard now,
1:05:24so I can use Touch ID with my fancy Apple Silicon Mac.
1:05:26'Cause my keyboard has an eject key where that should be,
1:05:30which is hilarious.
1:05:32- That's when all the SSDs pop out the side.
1:05:35- Yeah, oh no.
1:05:38So I ordered the eight terabyte model
1:05:40for my internal drive, so that'll stay the same size.
1:05:44And then I have to move the other storage external,
1:05:48which I am not thrilled about, but it is what it is.
1:05:51So I have a couple of drive enclosures,
1:05:56well, they're here now,
1:05:58one for the eight terabyte, the nightly clone.
1:06:02And it's just a, it's from OWC, it's a USB 3.2,
1:06:08So the 10 gigabit per second, bus powered,
1:06:11so no power adapter to contend with.
1:06:13Just little metal fanless enclosure to put that SSD in.
1:06:17I've used these in the past and had good luck with them.
1:06:20So ordered one for this.
1:06:23And then for the time machine one
1:06:26was a little more complicated 'cause that's two drives
1:06:29and they need to be put together into one larger volume.
1:06:34And it turns out OWC sells basically
1:06:36a two drive version of this.
1:06:39So it uses USB 3.1 Gen 2.
1:06:42So again, it's 10 gigabits per second,
1:06:45bus powered, it's aluminum.
1:06:48These designs of these cases don't match,
1:06:50which really irks me.
1:06:52I don't know why they've changed their design language,
1:06:54but they have.
1:06:55And I could put these two drives in there side by side.
1:06:59I looked at a couple of different options.
1:07:00- Wait. - Yeah.
1:07:01- Why can't you just put all,
1:07:03- 'Cause one is eight and one is two times eight.
1:07:05- Yeah.
1:07:06- Okay, I was gonna say why don't you just buy two
1:07:07of the same thing, but it's 'cause one has two of them.
1:07:09- Yeah, 'cause you can't buy a 16 terabyte SSD.
1:07:13- I have a way for you to get around this.
1:07:15Buy another eight terabyte SSD.
1:07:18Then you've got 16 terabyte,
1:07:21you got a whole other eight terabytes
1:07:22to do whatever you want with,
1:07:23and then just get two of those things.
1:07:24- That's true.
1:07:25- Stack 'em on top of each other.
1:07:26- Those eight terabyte SSDs are expensive.
1:07:28- Imagine what you could do with another eight terabytes.
1:07:31- It's true, I suppose.
1:07:33I looked at a couple of different things
1:07:34for the time machine and like, yes,
1:07:35I could just get like a spinning USB hard drive,
1:07:37but already have these SSDs.
1:07:39I want to use them, they're silent.
1:07:40- Not that that matters anymore with your loud computer.
1:07:43- Hush.
1:07:43(laughing)
1:07:45OWC does, and other companies,
1:07:47I'm just, I've looked at their website.
1:07:49They sell something called the MiniStack STX.
1:07:53And it is the size of Mac mini footprint,
1:07:59which is the same size as the Mac Studio footprint.
1:08:01So it goes underneath the machine or on top,
1:08:04and it has the ability to go up to 18 terabytes of storage.
1:08:09You have a NVMe M.2 SSD,
1:08:14and then a SATA slot,
1:08:16or a place to put a SATA drive in,
1:08:19and you can ray them together.
1:08:21The issue with this is a couple of things come up.
1:08:25One, I already have the drives,
1:08:26so just finding an enclosure for them
1:08:28makes more sense to me than buying more drives.
1:08:31It also has an external power supply,
1:08:34which I really don't wanna deal with.
1:08:36I like that this can be bus power so it's cleaner
1:08:39and I've got less things to plug in.
1:08:42But this thing has a fan in it.
1:08:44I guess because of the NVMe drive,
1:08:46it needs some air moving over it, didn't want that.
1:08:50So I've gone with the fanless cases across the board.
1:08:56And this stuff will be like stacked up, I guess,
1:08:59maybe under the Mac studio behind the screen.
1:09:02We don't really see it,
1:09:03but it makes me miss internal storage already.
1:09:05'Cause it's really nice to have all of that
1:09:07inside the computer.
1:09:08- How is it all gonna be connected?
1:09:10Is it all Thunderbolt?
1:09:12- These two enclosures are USB,
1:09:14the 10 gigabit per second USB.
1:09:17- USB-C.
1:09:18- Yeah, but these are backup drives.
1:09:19So the nightly one, I don't care how long it takes
1:09:22'cause it runs at night and the time machine one,
1:09:24it's still gonna be way faster than a time machine drive
1:09:28that's like a USB spinning hard drive.
1:09:32And so these will be plenty fast for what I need them for
1:09:37because it's not my primary.
1:09:38- You could put those somewhere else though,
1:09:39they don't need to be on the desk.
1:09:40- Yeah, I could even run long cables
1:09:42and like mount them under the desk
1:09:44or on a shelf or something.
1:09:45So that's the plan,
1:09:48it's gonna be a stack of external drives.
1:09:51Just a little disappointing.
1:09:53But I am very excited about making the jump tap with silicon.
1:09:56And--
1:09:57- Why don't you just keep the Mac Pro
1:10:00and put the Mac Studio inside of it?
1:10:02And then everything will still be internal.
1:10:06It'll be more internal, really, if you think about it.
1:10:10- I mean, you're not wrong, but you're also not right at all.
1:10:13- I mean, I'm right in my own way.
1:10:16There's so many holes in that case,
1:10:17you could thread some cables through there, you know?
1:10:20It'd be fine.
1:10:21As Myke says in the Discord, expandable.
1:10:23- Expandable, no! - It's expandable.
1:10:25(laughing)
1:10:27- So yeah, the MacStudio's still a couple weeks out.
1:10:30My plan is to sell the Mac Pro.
1:10:32I've already had a couple of people
1:10:34ask me about parts of the Mac Pro.
1:10:37So I don't know, I may take some of the,
1:10:40like that RAID card or,
1:10:43I was gonna sell the, 'cause I upgraded the GPU,
1:10:47I was gonna sell it separately
1:10:49and then like put the stock GPU back in it
1:10:51to sell the machine, but I sold the stock GPU,
1:10:54apparently like a year ago.
1:10:55I was looking through what I have on hand,
1:10:58I was like, oh, I definitely got rid of that already.
1:11:00So I'm not quite sure how it's gonna get sold off.
1:11:02I know Myke, you think I should keep it, but--
1:11:04- I think you should keep it.
1:11:05Videri, could you agree with me?
1:11:06I think you should keep the Mac Pro.
1:11:08- Hmm.
1:11:09- Yeah, see? - Yeah, keep it.
1:11:11But there's something silly with it.
1:11:15- Eric has the most Steven question,
1:11:18which is in the discord.
1:11:21Why not wait and see what the new Mac Pro will be?
1:11:24Let me tell you, Eric, he's doing that.
1:11:26He is waiting, but whilst waiting,
1:11:28he's changing his computer.
1:11:30- Yeah, this doesn't preclude me from moving again.
1:11:34- No, it doesn't.
1:11:35Flip flop, you know, there's a reason.
1:11:37That's the other thing, which is why I've said
1:11:40that he should not sell the Mac Pro immediately.
1:11:43I think you need to hang on to it for a while.
1:11:45- Yeah, I'm not selling it immediately,
1:11:46Because I want to make sure that this works for me and the noise isn't a problem.
1:11:51Because we found two asterisks so far.
1:11:54Mm-hmm.
1:11:55Noise and you're really upset about having to put the SSDs outside.
1:12:01Yeah.
1:12:02And so, you know, we've got two like chinks in the armor here for this computer.
1:12:08And so I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't get rid of the Mac Pro yet because you might not like it.
1:12:16Yeah, it'll stick around for a bit.
1:12:17Mm-hmm.
1:12:19And then maybe John Sirquiussa will buy
1:12:21a Rayam out of it or something, who knows?
1:12:23Mm-hmm.
1:12:24Be like a car boot sale,
1:12:27but just people just buying parts out of a Mac Pro.
1:12:31I was thinking more like organ donation, right?
1:12:33Like someone gets your liver, someone gets your heart,
1:12:35someone gets your retinas.
1:12:37Yeah.
1:12:38Et cetera.
1:12:39I can't imagine anyone's gonna put like the SSD
1:12:40on like a bike and like get it across town though, on ice.
1:12:44Stat, we gotta move this.
1:12:46We got 20 minutes on this GPU.
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1:15:07Five years ago, we got some shocking news
1:15:11that Apple was going to be acquiring workflow.
1:15:16I remember this very well.
1:15:19I was shocked that it's been five years,
1:15:22but Federico, I'd love to talk to you about this news
1:15:25and how you felt at the time
1:15:27and how you think Apple's handled this
1:15:29in the half decade since.
1:15:32I love your worst case, best case sort of approach
1:15:37to your article.
1:15:39So we have this article called the future of workflow
1:15:42in the show notes, where you outlined sort of
1:15:46what you viewed as the worst outcome.
1:15:48So maybe let's start with that.
1:15:49Like what were you afraid of, you know,
1:15:52that could have happened when Apple purchased workflow?
1:15:55Like what was that worst case scenario in your mind?
1:15:58- Right, right.
1:15:59So the worst case scenario was sort of following the typical playbook of most startup acquisitions,
1:16:06right?
1:16:07That it was going to be an acqui hire so that the workflow team was going to join Apple,
1:16:11but they would stop working on the workflow app and the workflow app would eventually
1:16:16get discontinued as those folks had been hired by Apple and they started working on other
1:16:21things.
1:16:22And I feel like the concern was justified because in the acquisition news, a detail
1:16:27that maybe some people do not remember is that Matthew Panzareno, when he broke the
1:16:31news on TechCrunch, he mentioned specifically that the workflow team was going to be joining
1:16:37the Siri and proactive intelligence teams at Apple. And that seems like, okay, why would
1:16:46you want to work there on those teams? You know, especially Siri of five years ago. I
1:16:51mean, Siri is not great now. Imagine five years ago. So there was some skepticism.
1:16:57skepticism surrounding this acquisition and what would it mean. Also,
1:17:02there was also, like, there was that constant underlying sense of, oh, this
1:17:11entire app has been built on, you know, on a very risky foundation. It's a house
1:17:18of cards based on a bunch of workarounds and, sure, native APIs, but are we sure
1:17:24that Apple really likes what these young kids have been doing? And the answer is
1:17:31that yeah, they were actually in love with it and the the worst case scenario
1:17:36did not come true. Actually the the absolute best case scenario come true
1:17:41and perhaps even more than I imagined. Yeah, you have in your article some
1:17:48things that you hoped to see if Apple took the better path. So things like a better action
1:17:54extension, new privileges, deeper integration. You talk about what you called workflow kit,
1:18:03which would... Right, which eventually would be SiriKit. But that was... So my assumption was
1:18:10all those things were... And I'm really, you know, patting myself on the back over here. I'm really
1:18:15glad that I made those predictions because that was exactly what Apple ended up doing. So my idea was
1:18:22Workflow has built this ecosystem of third-party apps that are compatible. I guess it's been five
1:18:30years so maybe we can share these details now. We knew, some of us knew at the time that something
1:18:36was happening because some of those applications that had that had workflow compatibility at
1:18:46the time, they were suddenly asked by the workflow team to sign some additional paperwork
1:18:54to grant them permission to use their URL schemes. Yeah, and I think we thought that
1:19:00they were in legal trouble or were getting like someone is trying to sue them or something.
1:19:05we knew/we thought that something was going on. And a few months later, the news of this
1:19:13acquisition broke. So obviously, they were getting their affairs in order to prepare
1:19:18to be acquired by Apple. But the idea was, well, they have this third-party ecosystem,
1:19:24but it's all based on URL schemes and X-callback URL stuff. There has to be a better way to
1:19:31to do this, right? And this is where Apple, you know, being, you know, Apple is Apple
1:19:36because they have really smart people working on this stuff that can have a vision to turn
1:19:42an existing product into something that you don't know you need, but that once you see
1:19:47it, you're like, "Oh yeah, I guess that makes perfect sense." And the idea was, what if
1:19:52we take this idea of having a system that allows apps to exchange data in the background,
1:20:03or you know, things like to create notes, to start directions to a location, to retrieve
1:20:11documents, whatever. What if that actually became part of the framework that we have
1:20:18for Siri? And what if all these shortcuts that you created as the user could also be
1:20:25triggered as a custom phrase in Siri? So that was the idea, blending together the world
1:20:32of Siri and Workflow, then rename shortcuts, in a way that used the existing foundation.
1:20:40That's where Apple was really smart. They didn't have to create a separate shortcuts
1:20:45kit or whatever. They built on top of SiriKit, with wildly different results, right? Because
1:20:52in Siri, the voice assistant continues to be largely inefficient, let's say, at dealing
1:21:01with third-party app integrations. But in shortcuts, there are some really, really excellent
1:21:07examples of SiriKit-based actions from third-party apps that let you do all kinds of stuff.
1:21:14Especially because over the years Apple has raised the memory limit for these actions,
1:21:20they have allowed even complex actions to run for longer in the background,
1:21:25and now you can do things like Pixelmator Pro Super ML Resolution as a shortcuts action on the Mac.
1:21:33So wildly different outcomes for the same technology, and I find that fascinating.
1:21:40And obviously, the thing that I could not possibly expect at the time was shortcuts for Mac.
1:21:44So Apple just coming right out last year and saying, "We believe shortcuts is the future
1:21:50of automation on Apple platforms." Well, okay. So that's a big commitment. That's a big statement.
1:21:56And so honestly, looking back at five years ago, all the things that I wanted came true.
1:22:03But obviously, with time and with the relaunch of shortcuts in iOS 12,
1:22:08and all the updates for iPad later, and most recently with Monterey, there are always new
1:22:16things, right? There are always new problems that come up and always new wishes that you come up
1:22:21with. And I feel like it's not all positive, right? There are still some lingering issues,
1:22:29I would say, for example, the fact that shortcuts, almost on an annual basis, has undergone a
1:22:37redesign in the editor, in the library, and last year, by switching to SwiftUI, they have
1:22:45introduced dozens, hundreds maybe, of bugs and visual glitches on all platforms. Many
1:22:53of them still haven't been fixed. Apple has been very proactive in reaching out to the
1:22:59community and now they have full-on detailed release notes for shortcuts on apple.com,
1:23:06which is incredible. All the individual bug fixes are mentioned in the release notes,
1:23:12so that's great. They're making progress. But I said this last year and I'm going to
1:23:17say it again, at some point the annual redesigns need to stop. And so hopefully now that they
1:23:23have SwiftUI, that's done. And more broadly speaking, the other thing I would mention is
1:23:29there's still work to be done in terms of consistency. Shortcuts at the moment is everywhere,
1:23:37but it doesn't behave the same on all platforms, and you have these very different
1:23:43possibilities. Whether you use shortcuts on the Mac or use it on the iPad or use it on the iPhone,
1:23:51It's almost like they were made by separate teams. On the Mac you can fully control multitasking,
1:23:57and you can resize and place windows anywhere. You can run JavaScript, you can run JavaScript,
1:24:04you can run AppleScript, you have system-wide integration with the keyboard, so you can have
1:24:11custom triggers. In Monterey version 12.3 they added this new option to shortcuts for Mac that I
1:24:19found out about a couple of days ago, called Provide Output.
1:24:23This is like a hidden toggle in the Details screen,
1:24:28in the configuration screen for a shortcut.
1:24:31And if you enable it, you can basically put together
1:24:34shortcuts that automatically replace things
1:24:39in the app that you're using.
1:24:40Like for example, you're using TextEdit,
1:24:43you select all the text in a document, the shortcut runs,
1:24:47and if you have Provide Output enabled,
1:24:49it replaces the selected text in the--
1:24:52- I could make a markdown--
1:24:54- Convert to Rich Text stuff.
1:24:56Yes, I already made one.
1:24:58And you know, it's one action.
1:25:01To do that sort of stuff now, it's one action.
1:25:03Because all you do is convert markdown to Rich Text,
1:25:07one action, you go to the configuration screen,
1:25:09you click on Provide Output, and that does it.
1:25:13- And I could do that by keyboard shortcut too, right?
1:25:16Yes, you select text, you run the keyboard.
1:25:19So you see this, like on the Mac now,
1:25:21you can do these incredible things with shortcuts.
1:25:24And I get it, maybe on the iPhone,
1:25:26you shouldn't be able to do them,
1:25:28but on the iPad with the keyboard
1:25:31and a very similar system, why not?
1:25:34So enough with the redesigns, more stability,
1:25:37performance improvements,
1:25:39and I think the next big thing for shortcuts,
1:25:42and maybe then we can go into some more specific wishes,
1:25:45but the next big thing needs to be consistency.
1:25:50Make the app behave as much as possible in a similar way.
1:25:55- I mean, it is a necessity because the shortcuts sync.
1:26:00You can't keep making them different from each other
1:26:04when they sync cross-platform,
1:26:07because then you end up with a bunch of problems,
1:26:09like to the point that they had to introduce,
1:26:12like detect device for this reason, right?
1:26:15- As an action. - Exactly.
1:26:16That's a symptom.
1:26:18I get it, it's a nice option,
1:26:20but that is also a symptom of a problem,
1:26:22which is you gotta have conditions
1:26:24to check the platform you're using.
1:26:27That's not ideal.
1:26:28Imagine if like reminders at a sub-menu that said,
1:26:30"Mac only," but no, it doesn't have it.
1:26:34- It's nice.
1:26:35It's nice that they have it
1:26:36because there are times where you might just want it
1:26:39to be completely different as a shortcut.
1:26:42I like that they embrace things that are Mac-ish,
1:26:46like the menu bar or whatever, like that's great.
1:26:50But you're right, like there are certain things like,
1:26:52like the way that Safari actions would not work the same
1:26:54or the way that, as you mentioned,
1:26:57the multitasking actions just not doing the same thing
1:27:00or not working at all.
1:27:01It's like this stuff, we can't go like this forever.
1:27:06I mean, it does make me actually like,
1:27:08we're talking about like how much has changed in five years
1:27:11and like how much farther ahead it is.
1:27:14But there is still this point in my back of my mind,
1:27:16which is reminds me of the iPad discussion
1:27:18that we had last week Federico of like,
1:27:20it's been five years and there are still these things
1:27:22that are, that have not changed.
1:27:25And like, and I, at this point don't understand why,
1:27:27like, like keyboard shortcut triggering of shortcuts, right?
1:27:32Especially now Apple has a second global modifier key.
1:27:39- Yeah.
1:27:40- Right? On the iPad that the Mac doesn't even have.
1:27:44And you still can't do it, you know?
1:27:47- Well, new Macs do, but it's not rolled out completely.
1:27:50- New Macs do, but yeah.
1:27:51Yeah.
1:27:52- Yeah, because command, option, control, and shift
1:27:54were not enough.
1:27:55We needed a fifth one.
1:27:56Going to five shortcuts.
1:27:58- We're doing five blades.
1:28:00We're doing five blades.
1:28:01But, so looking ahead at the next five years, maybe,
1:28:05I guess, performance improvements is the next big thing.
1:28:08Like, you need to really polish this thing now.
1:28:12And consistency, obviously.
1:28:14But I think in the next five years, I would say,
1:28:17let's keep an eye out for these features.
1:28:20Third-party triggers for automations.
1:28:25I think Apple should expand the list of potential triggers
1:28:28for automations to include specific events
1:28:31from third-party apps.
1:28:33So go beyond schedule, like it's 7 p.m. on a Thursday,
1:28:37or go beyond, you know, I'm connected to Wi-Fi.
1:28:39Imagine if things like,
1:28:41I received a new message in Tweetbot,
1:28:44or in Slack from this person, could be a trigger.
1:28:48So third-party triggers as events from apps.
1:28:53That's something that I would love Apple to work on.
1:28:55The Provide Output option that I just mentioned
1:28:59is part of a bigger thing that I believe Apple
1:29:03consider, which is more direct control for app UI. And I'm not talking necessarily about UI scripting,
1:29:14which is notoriously a very bad thing to do, but I would love to have more options in shortcuts to
1:29:22really control and speed up things that I do inside apps. Like, I don't know, open this
1:29:29this document, switch to editing mode, share this document with this specific person, like
1:29:35those kinds of actions that control features and the interface of third-party apps, that's
1:29:42something that I would love to see in shortcuts, especially if more pro apps are coming to
1:29:48iPad and iPhone, you know, five years from now.
1:29:50Is that an Apple thing or a developer thing or both?
1:29:54Well, I think it needs to be both, especially when--
1:29:58I really see this as going in combination
1:30:00with multitasking better, multitasking actions,
1:30:04especially on iPad, to have fine-grained controls for,
1:30:09let me create a specific workspace in shortcuts,
1:30:13down to the specific window of the same app
1:30:16and to the sizing of the window.
1:30:18Like, I have three Safari windows open.
1:30:20I want to pick this specific one,
1:30:22and I wanna put it on the bottom left corner.
1:30:25And then I want like reassembling an exact replica
1:30:29of a workspace from Shortcuts
1:30:31to basically have like a saved workspace, right?
1:30:33That sort of integration, I think,
1:30:35it needs to come from Apple.
1:30:37And then, and this is the real sort of big picture stuff,
1:30:42I really feel like there is a potential for Shortcuts
1:30:47to be used as a sort of like as this recipe
1:30:51building tool to create, it's called maybe presets for potential headsets or glasses
1:31:01down the road. Because I imagine like having those kinds of devices on your face,
1:31:06you will want to save as much time as possible while performing common actions. And so I feel
1:31:11like there's a place for shortcuts to be like, you know, you say a phrase and a shortcut
1:31:18presents you, cuts a bunch of steps from whatever you want to do. Like maybe you want to,
1:31:23you know, you're wearing glasses in 2027 or something and you're like, okay, I'm heading home,
1:31:29but I also want to text my partner and tell them I'm coming home. Like that sort of thing that you
1:31:34can do now with the Apple Watch and the iPhone, but imagine becoming super quick and super invisible.
1:31:40Because there's even less UI that you can tap, it's harder to do that. That's interesting.
1:31:46What if someone made an app for sending fast texts?
1:31:50How would that be like?
1:31:52If it doesn't have feet, there's no point.
1:31:54What would you call it? Quick, quick, quick, what do you call it? Quick type?
1:31:57No, that's another thing.
1:31:59Instant message?
1:32:01Quick SMS?
1:32:04Considering we're making fun of Casey again for no reason,
1:32:08I would just like to take a moment to promote Casey's app called Masquerade.
1:32:11It's very good.
1:32:12lovely app that allows you to add emoji to images with face detection.
1:32:18That's great. Gotta be nice at least one out of 20 times, you know?
1:32:21Yeah, I mean, I think looking back over the last five years, there's so much in your article,
1:32:26Federico, that came true. I think it's clear now that Apple bought shortcuts, maybe not
1:32:34with exactly where we are in mind, but with the vision of this being their complete automation
1:32:41story. I mean, we got that line from them last year to see that shortcuts is the
1:32:46future of automation on the Mac. Automator will be eventually
1:32:50sunsetted and they are bringing in those actions into the Mac and the Mac
1:32:55version has scripting support and all sorts of wild stuff that I just I did
1:32:59not expect to see but I'm so glad it's there and for me at least yeah there are
1:33:05issues and there are bugs and they're all silly limitations especially on iOS
1:33:09and iPadOS, but the vision I think is a good one.
1:33:14And I'm encouraged that they seem to be taking it
1:33:17really seriously because they should, right?
1:33:19Like if pro users need something solid
1:33:24to build their workflows on,
1:33:26maybe shortcuts isn't quite there yet,
1:33:28especially on the Mac, but I think with time it will be.
1:33:32And that's exciting.
1:33:33I'm glad that Apple cares about this
1:33:35because I think that's important to a lot of their users.
1:33:39And also to build on what you were saying to Stan Steven,
1:33:41like that they consider it important enough
1:33:45that it is a building block in the things
1:33:50that they continue to push forward to, right?
1:33:53With the potential of doing the kind of stuff
1:33:55that Federica was talking about, you know?
1:33:57That it's like it's there.
1:33:58And it does feel like that they keep doing that.
1:34:00Like they add new stuff and then shortcuts
1:34:03takes advantage of it in a new way, right?
1:34:05- Yeah. - There's always been
1:34:06this system, the NS activity system or whatever, and they say well now we build shortcuts on
1:34:11top of all of that, so it's like really baked into everything.
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1:36:46the show and Relay FM I need to call a special connected Congress to order
1:36:53What does that mean?
1:36:55So there is a Google Doc link in the show notes I would like you to each open.
1:36:58I'm opening it.
1:36:59I spent some time in the mountains, and like a certain someone in the Old Testament, have
1:37:05come down with a new set of rules.
1:37:08Wow, someone came back with a self-inflated sense of themselves, I think is what they
1:37:15actually came back with.
1:37:16Oh yeah, like Noah.
1:37:18Not Noah.
1:37:20Bruce Banner.
1:37:22Bruce Banner coming down from like Darth Vader Darth Vader had to go fight the
1:37:30Power Rangers okay so yeah this I need to be really clear about what this is
1:37:35and what this isn't this is a new document for the Ricky's it is a
1:37:40suggested revision to the Bill of Ricky no this is a new constitution that
1:37:45you're just I'm merely suggesting it this is I'm underlying this not an
1:37:51an attempt to somehow introduce annual chairman powers
1:37:56to affect change.
1:37:58You know me, man.
1:38:00You knew I was gonna say that.
1:38:01I was just about to say, here we go, he's done it.
1:38:04Yeah, I know.
1:38:06This needs to be peer reviewed.
1:38:08Well, that's what we're gonna do.
1:38:09We cannot just, well, who are our peers?
1:38:13We are the peers of him.
1:38:15No, there needs to be an external committee.
1:38:17No, there's not.
1:38:18This is how you give them power and they take over.
1:38:21- Ah.
1:38:22- So I know Myke wants this like annual chairmanship
1:38:25to come with power.
1:38:26I don't agree with that.
1:38:27This is not a move in that direction.
1:38:29I've wanted to clean up.
1:38:30- You don't agree with it, but as annual chairman,
1:38:33you've decided you're gonna rewrite
1:38:34the entire bill of Rickeys. - No, no.
1:38:35As reader of the rules every time,
1:38:37as someone who has to stumble through them,
1:38:40they're too long and too wordy.
1:38:41And so what I've done is simply cleaned them up
1:38:44in this proposed bill of Rickeys.
1:38:48So my suggestion is that I read these
1:38:52and then I'll read a section and then we can talk about it.
1:38:55How does that sound?
1:38:56Okay, I mean, are you gonna tell us how you've changed it?
1:38:59Is that gonna be a medium?
1:39:00Yes, I have two notes prepared.
1:39:02Okay.
1:39:02So the first thing is something
1:39:04that we've been meaning to do for a while
1:39:06and we just haven't done it,
1:39:07is some sort of preamble to explain
1:39:10what the heck these episodes are.
1:39:12Yeah, that's been a thing we've wanted to do for a bit,
1:39:14but we've been pushed for time, so.
1:39:16The other thing, the other kind of meta-structural thing
1:39:19I've done is over time, the rules for the Ricky's
1:39:24and the Flexys have been both together and apart.
1:39:27I have truly separated them now.
1:39:30They each have their own preamble
1:39:31and their own set of rules.
1:39:33And so I think as someone listens to these episodes,
1:39:36especially if someone's new to the show, welcome.
1:39:38- What a terrible episode to be new to,
1:39:40like my word, Ricky's episodes.
1:39:44- I'm sorry.
1:39:45Yeah. We want to make that a better experience.
1:39:47As you go through this, if me or Federico have something we want to say,
1:39:53can we jump in or should we wait?
1:39:55Let me read the whole,
1:39:56so let me read like the Ricky's preamble and we'll talk about that and then I'll
1:39:59read the Ricky's rules and we'll talk about that. How does that sound?
1:40:01I'm fine with that.
1:40:03Okay. Cause I may explain something later, you know, as we go. Okay.
1:40:06So this is my proposed new Ricky's preamble. Okay.
1:40:11The Ricky's is a game connected host play before Apple events.
1:40:15It is made up of three rounds. Each host makes two regular picks followed by a risky pick.
1:40:21Okay.
1:40:21There are two types of rookies, annual rookies and keynote rookies. The winner of the annual
1:40:26rookies is named annual chairman and retains the rights to the corresponding Twitter account
1:40:30for the full year. This position is awarded every January. The keynote rookies winner
1:40:35is named the keynote chairman and retains the rights to the corresponding Twitter account
1:40:39until the next keynote is held. After the rookies, the hosts play a game called the
1:40:43The Flexis, these two games have separate but related rules.
1:40:47Please stand for the reading of the rules for the Ricky's.
1:40:50So that's the preamble.
1:40:51- I have three issues.
1:40:53Three issues.
1:40:56- I have one that I noticed when I was reading it.
1:41:00The first sentence needs tweaking,
1:41:01'cause we don't always play it before an Apple event.
1:41:04We do have an annual version.
1:41:05- There you go.
1:41:06That was one of mine.
1:41:08- We maybe need a different explanation.
1:41:10So the Ricky's is a game connected to host play,
1:41:13- Something, we need a better sentence there.
1:41:15- Yeah, multiple times a year.
1:41:18- Before Apple events or at the beginning of a new year.
1:41:23- I'm gonna say and beginning of a new year.
1:41:26- My next question is event/keynote because
1:41:31- Oh, wait like.
1:41:34- Just in general like.
1:41:36- Well, it is keynote chairman.
1:41:38- Yup.
1:41:40- So it probably should be before Apple keynotes.
1:41:42- Keynotes.
1:41:43though they're technically not that anymore we're just gonna be old-school
1:41:46that's the language that we choose to use the last thing is like I know I just
1:41:51have to say it because it just makes more sense to me and I know everyone's
1:41:54gonna disagree with me like the Rickies is to me it's the Rickies are singular
1:42:00game but this is the difference between like America and the UK yeah well I just
1:42:07need for like I need to get this okay and I think Federico needs to make the
1:42:11deciding decision I'm sure he's gonna go with you but so I just think about this
1:42:15and the reason I went singular is because I'm the one reading them and I
1:42:21think now it makes more sense singular to me as well but also there are two
1:42:26different types of Ricky's yeah but it's a game like it's a single game yeah and
1:42:31the rules are the same between the different types are they what about the
1:42:35365 rule is that still the same well we'll get to that we haven't read the
1:42:38rules yet. I still, the Ricky's are is in my mind the right way to do it. If you
1:42:43two both go with is that's fine but I need to get my like protestation out
1:42:48into the world. And there's nothing saying that you can't say that I just
1:42:51think the document it should be singular. Yeah I mean I will I there's no way I
1:42:54can say it I just will it will break in my brain. Yeah because we also do Apple
1:42:58is versus Apple are which it's the same thing kind of. Well I don't I say Apple
1:43:04Apple are. Apple are sounds no it sounds wrong every single time. Apple is.
1:43:09Apple is not a singular organism it is made up of a group of people. It's a
1:43:14company. No it's a company. Made up of people. It's a company like no it doesn't
1:43:21matter. It matters in English. We wouldn't say Apple is. We would always say
1:43:27Apple are. How do you know about language anyway? I mean I speak the language that
1:43:31that the two of you wish you owned.
1:43:33- Wow.
1:43:34(laughing)
1:43:36- Yeah.
1:43:38- Did you hear that still?
1:43:39- Yeah.
1:43:40- No, I did and we're moving on.
1:43:41- He speaks the language that the two of us wish we could.
1:43:44- Yeah, no, I'm aware of his feelings.
1:43:47Read the preamble.
1:43:48Please stand for the reading of the rules of the rookies.
1:43:51I don't think--
1:43:52- No, this is not an official--
1:43:53- Yeah, well, I was gonna say,
1:43:54y'all don't have to stand for this
1:43:55'cause these aren't the rules yet, right?
1:43:57This is a suggestion.
1:43:59So here are the rules for the rookies.
1:44:02Correct regular picks are awarded with one point.
1:44:05Everything written down in the prediction document
1:44:08must come true to earn any points
1:44:10and no partial points may be awarded.
1:44:12Correct risky picks are worth two points,
1:44:15but wrong ones will cause a point to be deducted
1:44:18from that host total.
1:44:20Picks must have been approved as risky
1:44:22by the two other hosts before the start of the game.
1:44:26Scoring is done during recording
1:44:28and cannot be modified once an episode is complete.
1:44:31In the event of a tie, dice by Peacock
1:44:34must be used in relay FM mode to pick a winner.
1:44:37Jason Snell has a lifetime ban on flipping any coins
1:44:40on connected or adjacent podcasts or events.
1:44:43- I like that you've kept this.
1:44:44I'm happy this stayed in, it's very important.
1:44:47- And I needed the adjacent podcast and event
1:44:49so he doesn't like sneak in a live show with a coin.
1:44:52Like running on stage with a coin.
1:44:54- I do feel like it's, actually I will say
1:44:56It's kind of on-- oh, sorry.
1:44:57I'll come back to this.
1:44:58Yeah, the adjacent podcast is tricky.
1:45:00We can talk about that.
1:45:01The order of picks is set by previous performance.
1:45:04For annual rookies, the winner of the previous year's game
1:45:07goes first.
1:45:08In the case of keynote rookies, the winner
1:45:10of the previous game goes first.
1:45:12In both cases, the loser goes last.
1:45:15For keynote rookies, the scoring window
1:45:16starts when the event begins and closes
1:45:19when the picks are scored.
1:45:20Any information in scoring must be publicly verifiable
1:45:24at the time of scoring.
1:45:26And then I have the, this is boilerplate,
1:45:29but I'll read it now.
1:45:30As a reminder, Steven is the current annual chairman
1:45:32and Federico is the current keynote chairman.
1:45:35A Twitter handle is on the line.
1:45:36Past results can be seen at rookies.co and rookies.net.
1:45:40The former also has a page about how to manage
1:45:42your own scorekeeping at home.
1:45:44So I've been working with our friend Lex at rookies.co.
1:45:49Whether we use it or not, or it's in the rules or not,
1:45:51I still wanted this on the page for people
1:45:54to know how the tricky, the version of the trophies we have,
1:45:59and the mag tricky, how to keep those correct.
1:46:01So with images and stuff, I sent him some pictures,
1:46:03so we're working on that.
1:46:04- Okay.
1:46:05- So that's the rules.
1:46:06- All right.
1:46:07- Thoughts?
1:46:08- I have two.
1:46:08- Okay.
1:46:09- The, where is it, scoring, what is it?
1:46:13No, it's in the top part.
1:46:15Everything written down in the prediction document
1:46:17must come true to earn any points.
1:46:19I think agreed upon is better than written down,
1:46:22because technically we write a lot of stuff in
1:46:25to the document that is not counted in the scoring.
1:46:29It is just context, it is flavor as they say.
1:46:31So I just think like everything agreed upon
1:46:34during the picking process, because we agree now, right?
1:46:37Like I feel like we have naturally come to that
1:46:39where we agree on what the pick is.
1:46:42- And then there's the surrounding context.
1:46:44- And then we give some extra bits.
1:46:47Yeah, and it's not what's written down.
1:46:49It's like we write that stuff in italics,
1:46:51but that can't be in the rules.
1:46:53- Well, maybe we don't need that phrase
1:46:55and maybe it's just correct regular picks awarded one point,
1:46:59no partial points can be awarded.
1:47:01- There's a good reason we need something like this
1:47:03because one of us will try and wriggle out of it
1:47:05at some point, but it's just like.
1:47:08- So what about like,
1:47:10I'm just gonna make a new paragraph so we can compare.
1:47:11- There's like, there is this idea
1:47:13of it being agreed upon, I think is the--
1:47:16- Is the language used for regular picks.
1:47:21must be finalized and agreed upon during recording.
1:47:26- There you go, that's perfect for me.
1:47:28- And no partial points may be awarded.
1:47:30That feel good?
1:47:31- I think that works, yeah.
1:47:32- Okay.
1:47:33- I have a problem with saying Jason can't flip coins
1:47:36on adjacent podcasts.
1:47:37I just don't think we have the jurisdiction
1:47:39to say he can't flip a coin on the incomparable, for example.
1:47:42- Okay, so--
1:47:43- Maybe Jason doesn't want to,
1:47:44but I think that should be Jason's thing.
1:47:46- So I meant for that to really be like,
1:47:48I don't know what Jason like rage flipping on upgrade
1:47:52because we banned him here.
1:47:54But I guess we can't really say that.
1:47:56We can't stop him from doing that, you know?
1:47:59OK, so we'll just say he has any--
1:48:01he's a lifetime ban on flipping any coins on connected.
1:48:05What if Jason Snyder has a lifetime ban on flipping
1:48:08any coins on connected, semicolon, other coin
1:48:11flips by Jason on a Jason podcast are frowned upon?
1:48:15Yeah.
1:48:17So, Simico and coin.
1:48:20- Or similarly, we judge anybody that allows Jason
1:48:24to flip a coin on their behalf.
1:48:26- Let's say coins.
1:48:28I kinda like-
1:48:29- I like the frowned upon though.
1:48:29- Yeah, coins flipped by Jason on other-
1:48:33- And I do agree with the suggestion that Jason is making
1:48:36in the Discord right now,
1:48:38not about connected, but about for the Ricky's.
1:48:42Right?
1:48:44we do the Rickies not on connected. Like a live really FM show. Yeah, there will be a loophole for Jason.
1:48:52We're doing some kind of like 10th anniversary show and we're grading some Rickies and he runs
1:48:58on and starts flipping coins left right and center. So his lifetime ban of flipping any coins in
1:49:03relation to the Rickies? Yeah. Simecolon coins flipped by Jason to other podcasts are allowed
1:49:10but frowned upon love it. What I will say as well like this. This is not for
1:49:15the rules, but just as like a thing for us to talk about Jason never flips coins.
1:49:19He throws them. That's the problem. If he could flip a coin, it would be fun if I
1:49:24do flips and quotes in the rules coin flips. I love it. Yeah coin flips by
1:49:30Jason on other podcasts are allowed, but are found and every time you say it, you
1:49:34have to do the like yeah you know flips he wishes the other thing that I came
1:49:44across that was a little weird as I was reading it was the last paragraph
1:49:47cuz I didn't read these out loud when I wrote them yeah yeah the scoring window
1:49:51starts when the event begins and closes when the pics are scored any information
1:49:55used in scoring must be publicly verifiable at the time of scoring I want
1:49:59to change that last one just like time of recording I think yeah recording is
1:50:03- That's perfect.
1:50:03- Not to repeat it?
1:50:04- Yes.
1:50:05- So, some things I removed.
1:50:07I removed the rule about not being able to reuse picks.
1:50:12That's my suggestion, that we banish that rule.
1:50:15The other thing I got rid of was closing ceremonies
1:50:20because we've never actually done it.
1:50:21And I think that pointing people to rickys.co--
1:50:23- We'll come back to the reusing.
1:50:25I think we should still say it as a closing ceremonies.
1:50:28The reason why I reckon we should have it
1:50:30is because it is a future merchandising opportunity.
1:50:33Right?
1:50:36So I think there is benefit to keeping it in the rules.
1:50:39I mean, one day we'll do it.
1:50:43- So what if I say in both cases the loser goes last,
1:50:48winners will be recognized.
1:50:51- During the closing ceremonies.
1:50:52- During the closing ceremonies.
1:50:55And if we just never, if we always keep forgetting it,
1:50:57then it's like a running gag.
1:50:59I mean, at this point it is accidentally won.
1:51:01And maybe the winner's just never recognized.
1:51:04We'll be contested winners.
1:51:07That's the problem.
1:51:09Is there an ability to contest the winner
1:51:11if we never recognize the winner
1:51:12because we keep forgetting?
1:51:14What about winners will be celebrated?
1:51:15- No, because scoring is done during recording.
1:51:18Scoring is completed during recording.
1:51:19- I would prefer winners will be celebrated
1:51:20during the closing ceremonies.
1:51:22- Maybe.
1:51:23- I think that might be better than recognized.
1:51:25- Anything else with the Ricky's?
1:51:29- Not that part, no, I'm good with it.
1:51:30- Okay.
1:51:31- Yeah, this all looks good so far.
1:51:34- Well, I tell you what,
1:51:36I feel like we've done a lot of legislation today.
1:51:38Let's deal with the flexies next week.
1:51:41How's that sound?
1:51:42- Considering you ambushed us today with this,
1:51:46I actually would like some time to sit on this.
1:51:50- Exactly.
1:51:51- Yeah, 'cause we actually haven't settled the 365
1:51:54reusing pics things.
1:51:56- Yeah, I need to think about that one actually,
1:51:58Because I think that there is a benefit in--
1:52:02Because, yeah, it did add like a fun mechanic to the--
1:52:08There is the idea of I'll just get it next time, which
1:52:11that doesn't sit well with me.
1:52:12I think we need to come up with some kind of reusing perk.
1:52:16Yeah, I think Jason had a suggestion of reuse--
1:52:20not being able to reuse them the next round.
1:52:23So like, if I--
1:52:24How does that count for the annuals?
1:52:26Right, we'll talk about this next week.
1:52:27We'll talk about this next week.
1:52:28- Okay, so we will come back to this.
1:52:30I have a little to-do list now at the top of the document.
1:52:33In the meantime, if you wanna find links
1:52:35to stuff we spoke about, head on over to our website,
1:52:37relay.fm/connected/390.
1:52:41While you're there, you can leave feedback or follow up.
1:52:45There's an email link there.
1:52:47Or you can do it on Twitter.
1:52:47You can find Myke on Twitter as I-M-Y-K-E.
1:52:52Myke, tell people about your new show.
1:52:54- If you are a fan of Formula One racing,
1:52:56which you should be.
1:52:57If you're not, you should watch Drive to Survive on Netflix and you can make those noises.
1:53:01I don't know who it was that did that, is it Steven or Federico, but maybe it was just
1:53:05a real Formula One car, I don't know.
1:53:07You can check out, I've got a new show on relay FM and streaming live on YouTube.
1:53:10It's called the Backmarkers and we're at backmarkers.fm for the audio, backmarkers.live for the video.
1:53:18It's Austin Evans and I and we stream live after every race of the Formula One season.
1:53:24It's a different thing for me doing a video podcast, like it's a video podcast as well
1:53:29as an audio podcast, which has been a fun experience.
1:53:34I reckon people go, I would recommend people check it out if they have any interest in
1:53:38Formula One, we're building this for new fans.
1:53:41That's the whole idea, so please check it out.
1:53:43You can find Federico on Twitter @Vittici, V I T I C C I, and he is the editor and chief
1:53:49of MacStories.net.
1:53:52You can find me on Twitter as ismh and my writing at 512 pixels.net.
1:53:56I'd like to thank our sponsors Squarespace, Hover, Trade Coffee, and Theragun.
1:54:01I'd also like to thank our members if you're interested in Connected Pro, which is a longer
1:54:06ad-free version of the show each and every week.
1:54:09You can join there at the Relay.fm/Connected webpage.
1:54:11There are a couple buttons there right at the top.
1:54:14You can join monthly or annually, get access to Discord, the Relay newsletter, a bunch
1:54:19membership extras, shows, wallpapers, a lot of good stuff there. Until next time guys, say goodbye.
1:54:25Adios adios. Cheerio. Bye y'all.