0:00:00(upbeat music)
0:00:02Hello and welcome to Connected, episode 343.
0:00:12It's made possible this week by our sponsors,
0:00:14Privacy, Memberful, and Bombas.
0:00:18My name is Stephen Hackett
0:00:19and I'm joined by my friend, Mr. Myke Hurley.
0:00:21- Hello.
0:00:23- Hey bud.
0:00:24- Hi, how are you?
0:00:25- I am, I'm good, how are you?
0:00:27- Excellent.
0:00:29fine and dandy. Fine and dandy? Yeah, both. Well, let's see if Federico Vitticci can
0:00:34top that. Federico, how are you? Buona sera, Steven Aket. How are you?
0:00:38Oh, ciao. Bella. Why do you always say that? Ciao, Bella. It's just they go together, don't they? Well, sure, but there's...
0:00:52This is like one of those... I don't know, like those...
0:00:56I can't think of the wording really, but it's like a...
0:01:01People say it. It's like just one of those phrases, like a pop culture phrase that doesn't really...
0:01:07Well, you...
0:01:08It doesn't really mean anything.
0:01:10Well, for you!
0:01:11Yeah, it doesn't really mean anything for me, you know?
0:01:14Right.
0:01:15It's like, say something a British person would say.
0:01:17Like Tally Ho?
0:01:19Yeah, there you go. No one says that nobody says that I have never heard someone say that unironically
0:01:26Like it doesn't happen. You know
0:01:29There's a chow Bella Italian grill here in the show. I mean why not right around the corner from my house?
0:01:35Yeah, so I'll send you guys the website. Maybe you can pick something out border it online
0:01:40Have delivered job. Ella. I have some
0:01:44Tracking drama to share with you all. Whoo
0:01:49Do you remember Chipolo the burrito company that was making AirTag clones?
0:01:54Mm-hmm and Apple announced them and the dog cow bike on the same day. Yes
0:01:59well
0:02:02Chipolo has come out with an ad for the one spot which is their tracker that works with find my that's supposed to come out
0:02:10I think it's in June and
0:02:12This ad says attaches directly to your keyring no accessory
0:02:17Needed and it's these pictures because this thing has a hole punched in it and it comes with a key ring
0:02:21so you don't have to buy a $29 or
0:02:24$449 luggage tag or something to attach this to your things. I mean, that's fine. I like the spice
0:02:32yeah, I mean well, they've got to do something because
0:02:35They don't really have much of a competitive edge at this point. Do they?
0:02:38No, they don't. I think I said it in our episode covering the event
0:02:43I love that the Apple person who when she was announcing this she's like we're
0:02:48so glad to join the ecosystem of trackers I'm like what ecosystem you
0:02:53announced two things a week ago that aren't shipping yet our ecosystem and
0:02:57don't you forget it that's right it's like the the Obama meme with Obama put
0:03:03in a given himself a medal have you ever seen that it's kind of like that oh yeah
0:03:09like with someone's Photoshop himself. So I'm just, you know, I'm staying on top of these,
0:03:16these other find my device makers because I'm convinced this thing is never going to ship.
0:03:22The Chipolo? Yeah. I mean, it may. I'm on their list to be told when it's available.
0:03:29I'm on Team Chipolo myself. I believe in them. I mean, only, only like in, in spirit. I'm not
0:03:38not gonna buy a Chipolo, but I like to say I'm on Team Chipolo. You're not really on
0:03:42the team then, are you? That's a nice ring to it though. Say I'm on Team Chipolo. I feel
0:03:47like to be on their team you kind of need to buy their product, otherwise you're kind
0:03:51of, I don't know, you're just like an admirer. Sure, I guess I'm a Chipolo admirer. Yes.
0:03:57Whatever floats your boat. iOS 14.5 has come out. That is true. Is it anything we should
0:04:04about in there? Well, there's a bunch of things and to me usually the proof of
0:04:09like the popularity of certain features is how long it takes my quote-unquote
0:04:16"normal friends" to mention them to me. And sure enough today I was able to meet
0:04:23up with a bunch of friends and one of them immediately said "oh by the way I
0:04:27did the software update yesterday because of the the face ID with the mask unlock."
0:04:32I was like, there you go.
0:04:34Of course you like, I had a feeling that this was gonna be
0:04:37like the feature for people and the fact that it took,
0:04:41well, like basically two days for,
0:04:44to hear the first mention,
0:04:45I think it's a pretty good sign
0:04:47that this is gonna be popular.
0:04:48And my friend's assessment of the functionality
0:04:52is pretty much what we've all been saying.
0:04:54Like it's not perfect.
0:04:56Sometimes it gets it wrong and it still asks me
0:04:59for a passcode, but overall,
0:05:01Like this is so much better than before.
0:05:03And yeah, that's essentially what this feature does.
0:05:06- Yeah, that's been my experience
0:05:08'cause I ran the 14.5 beta,
0:05:10but I did not put the beta on my Apple Watch.
0:05:12And so this is the first time I've gotten to use it.
0:05:14It's really pretty great.
0:05:16I agree that on occasion I've had it miss,
0:05:19but I'd say nine times out of 10,
0:05:21it does what it's supposed to do.
0:05:23I shared this on the MPU episode that's coming out Sunday,
0:05:26but Mary had heard about this.
0:05:28Like they were talking about it at work
0:05:30and she's like, "Hey, can you update my phone?"
0:05:34- I mean, this is a legit thing.
0:05:35If you have an Apple Watch and an iPhone,
0:05:38oh my God, like this is awesome, right?
0:05:40- Oh yeah, super cool.
0:05:42- I want to mention, so regarding these other 14.5 feature,
0:05:47app tracking transparency, we've been talking about this,
0:05:51Apple has been talking about it,
0:05:52there's a bunch of interviews that you should watch.
0:05:54I recommend the Craig Federighi one with Joanna Stern
0:05:58at the Wall Street Journal, which is a good one.
0:06:01- Oh, I have that one to watch.
0:06:02- Yeah, it's really good.
0:06:04I have been told by a couple of Mac Stories readers
0:06:08that it appears that quite a few people
0:06:12cannot enable this setting,
0:06:14and there's an entire thread on Reddit,
0:06:17as well as on the Apple support forums,
0:06:19about the fact that a lot of people, it seems,
0:06:23they see this option, but it's grayed out,
0:06:26and they cannot enable this setting.
0:06:28So...
0:06:29What, like the overall one?
0:06:32Is that what we're talking about?
0:06:33The overall, like the overall one,
0:06:36the overall toggle in app tracking transparency.
0:06:40So under the settings privacy screen,
0:06:43it appears that it's grayed out for quite a few people.
0:06:46And yeah, I just wanted to mention,
0:06:49I'm going to try and find the link that I was sent.
0:06:51So if you're...
0:06:52Could it be that like,
0:06:53maybe these people just haven't had any apps
0:06:55of trying to do it? No, because you should still be able to interact with the toggle,
0:07:00and instead it's just grayed out, like if it's not available at all. So I'm going to try and find the
0:07:06discussion thread, so if you've been having this issue, check it out because there's plenty of
0:07:10other people like you. Yeah, Apple actually released a support document yesterday talking
0:07:17about this, and my guess is that it's buggy and it affects more than these people, but Apple says,
0:07:24If you are under the age of 18, so you have like a minor Apple ID account, you can't set
0:07:32it.
0:07:33If your Apple ID is managed by an educational institution or uses certain types of configuration
0:07:39profiles that you may not be able to use it.
0:07:42And if your Apple ID was created in the last three days.
0:07:45Now my guess is that, like I said, it's buggy and there are people who are running into
0:07:49this who don't fall into those buckets.
0:07:52least Apple has said under some circumstances this is expected behavior. So I guess what in those
0:07:59instances either the parent or the educational institution will do it for you or it's off by
0:08:05default? It's off by default so an app can't. So you just can't turn it on? Yeah so it's it's
0:08:11interesting I'd imagine that there'll be a 14.5.1 or something that maybe fixes this for some other
0:08:17people. There's also a new emoji, but I guess we're gonna talk about that later
0:08:22in the show. We're gonna play our usual fun games for this new emoji.
0:08:29And I also wanted to mention, so if you're new to 14.5, I would recommend, we
0:08:38talked about this before, play around with Siri. There's a bunch of new Siri
0:08:42features, but I particularly want to call out the integration with third-party
0:08:47music players. So if you're a Spotify person or if you use Tidal or Amazon Music or any
0:08:52other compatible music streaming service, you can now play your music with Siri using
0:08:58those services. In addition, this integration extends to other kinds of audio apps, so you
0:09:05should also be able to use Siri with third-party podcast clients as well as audiobook players.
0:09:12I was asked by some people on Twitter,
0:09:15why is the Apple Books app showing up
0:09:17in the Siri permission prompt?
0:09:19And that is because books can play audio books as well.
0:09:23So for music, podcasts, and audio books,
0:09:27you can now take advantage of the Siri integration.
0:09:29And lastly, I wanna call out an Apple Music feature,
0:09:33which is the ability to share lyrics,
0:09:35to share real-time lyrics from the music app.
0:09:39This is really nicely done for songs
0:09:42that have real-time lyrics,
0:09:44you can now long press on any line of text,
0:09:47and doing that will bring up this custom version
0:09:51of the share sheet.
0:09:52I say custom because I'm pretty sure Apple
0:09:54is using a private API,
0:09:56where at the bottom you see your usual extensions.
0:09:59But at the top you can scroll your lyrics
0:10:03and select the ones that you wanna share.
0:10:06And once you've selected some lyrics,
0:10:08you can either make a story for the Instagram or Facebook apps,
0:10:13or you can share a little lyrics snippet over iMessage.
0:10:19And on iMessage, it's nice because it's also an audio player itself,
0:10:23so this special message that you send,
0:10:26it shows you the lyrics that you've selected,
0:10:28but it also comes with a play button.
0:10:30And if you hit play in iMessage,
0:10:32the song plays at the exact spot where you shared the lyrics.
0:10:37It's really nicely done. So, really nice Apple Music feature. It is April, the end
0:10:45of April as we record this, and we are getting ready to start releasing our
0:10:50annual specials for Relay FM members. We used to do this in the fall, but with new
0:10:56iPhones and the Podcast-a-thon for St. Jude and other stuff, we wanted to move
0:11:01these to the spring this year. So these are gonna kick off Thursday, April 29th
0:11:07connected is actually going first just kind of how it worked out the three of
0:11:12us have created something special very special very special very special can
0:11:19you guess what it might be about things you will enjoy it we're always enjoy it
0:11:25the rest of special for you so if you are a relay FM member be sure you
0:11:35subscribed to the crossover feed and in member full. And if you're not a relay
0:11:39FM member and you want to check that out and a whole bunch of other annual
0:11:43specials, a bunch of shows across the network are doing it. Uh, you can join,
0:11:47you can learn more about the membership program, uh, at relay.fm/membership, or
0:11:53you can join connected and you will also get a longer ad free version of this
0:11:58show by going to relay.fm/connected/join. Yeah. And they're going to be
0:12:04throughout the whole month, right?
0:12:05There's going to be a bunch of specials coming out from some of your favorite
0:12:08programs throughout all of may. Uh, and so it's going to be, uh,
0:12:11it's going to be a lot of fun. Let's take a break and then get into some news.
0:12:14How does that sound? All right. Love. Oh, I love news. Yes.
0:12:17News is great. Give me the news. Is this news?
0:12:23Is it? This is supposed to be an ad. Okay. Give me the ad.
0:12:27This episode of connected is brought to you by privacy.com.
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0:14:29Our thanks to privacy for their support of the show and relay FM. Oh boy. Yeah.
0:14:38How do we start this? We're gonna talk about Basecamp. Yeah. I mean it's
0:14:46probably a fair expectation that the majority of our listeners will have
0:14:53heard about this story. I mean it was trending worldwide on Twitter at one point. Basically
0:15:01the founders of Basecamp and Hay, Jason Fried and David Hanomayah Hanson put out a couple
0:15:08of blog posts which affected, I mean the thing that people were really holding onto and talking
0:15:17about, basically talking about changes at the company like Basecamp which includes Basecamp
0:15:21and hey. And the thing that has gotten the most conversation is a heading
0:15:28referring to no more societal and political discussions at Basecamp or and
0:15:35then it had been edited to on our company Basecamp account. Stephen can you
0:15:39help me to talk about this? I'm really struggling to introduce this. We have a
0:15:44lot to say but kind of setting the stage is tricky. It is tricky, due in no small
0:15:49apart because they have changed those two blog posts repeatedly.
0:15:53Uh, I think if you, if you haven't kept up with this, the thing, the one thing I
0:15:58would read first is an article on the verge by Casey Newton called, uh, behind
0:16:04the controversy at base camp.
0:16:05And it really kind of sets the stage for what happened.
0:16:09And he talks to some employees.
0:16:11I mean, Casey Newton does a better job than anybody at talking about
0:16:14what's going on inside companies.
0:16:15And so I would, I would go look at their article first.
0:16:19Basically, the gist of this is, and these posts had other things, but again, this heading is really what's garnered a lot of the attention. Initially, as it was written, they said that these, these conversations about about politics about things going on in the world, we're done with it at base camp, and they they go on a little bit later, kind of come back to that and say we are not a social impact company.
0:16:49Our impact is contained to what we do and how we do it.
0:16:53And the reason this blew up and the reason
0:16:56that we wanna talk about it is not necessarily
0:17:00their decision, although I think it's the wrong one,
0:17:04but what this decision means in terms of people
0:17:09who already feel marginalized in the tech community.
0:17:13So people of color, women, very often are the smallest
0:17:18groups in a room, right? Tech is dominated by people who look like us. And when this
0:17:26sort of thing is shared and said, it takes away what voice or platform those people feel
0:17:35like they have, and they feel like their ability to speak up about things is taken away. And
0:17:42that's why this is such a big deal, because that's what this does. Now, we can get into
0:17:46the weeds and I'm sure we will, but I think that's sort of why this is such a big conversation right
0:17:52now. Yeah, and I feel like I struggle to an extent because I've never worked at a company.
0:18:00I've never actually worked for, you know, no more than one person. I had a job when I was 19 and I
0:18:11I had a boss and that was just him.
0:18:14I've never worked in an office environment.
0:18:16I've never worked at a company.
0:18:18However, I think I've been around people who do long enough
0:18:23and I've been exposed to the sort of Silicon Valley culture
0:18:29long enough that I think I know what's going on.
0:18:33And I think I can identify the problems with this,
0:18:37even though I've never worked at a company myself,
0:18:40even though I think some ideas and some topics
0:18:45are pretty universal, and you don't need to know
0:18:48the details or the specifics of how Basecamp operates.
0:18:53Because in this story, for me, there's some universal
0:18:58concepts that I think deserve an explanation,
0:19:01that I think deserve explaining
0:19:03and helping others understand.
0:19:05And I don't think you need to be an expert
0:19:08in different types of tech companies to relate and to understand and to get upset at some
0:19:16of these decisions.
0:19:17Yeah, I think that's fair. The thing that really drives it home is some of the response
0:19:24from people within Basecamp and their leadership. Mostly DHH has continued to blog about it
0:19:33and talk about some of the things that happen behind the scenes. A lot of it that Casey
0:19:37reported on initially. I do want to go through the rest of some of their statements because
0:19:44I think that while this one is really the heart of it, there are other things that are
0:19:48worth talking about. And I know there are people listening who have already said, like,
0:19:54why does everything have to be political? And that is the world that we live in. It's
0:20:03always been the case that issues of racism and sexism and nationalism, they intersect
0:20:12with politics because in the United States and in countries around the world, those things
0:20:18have been either fought against or embraced by politicians over time.
0:20:26stop right there. I think it's pretty, I don't, I think this is pretty much true.
0:20:33All the time that, like every time I see somebody say, "Why does everything need to be so, so
0:20:39polli-, everything has to be political? Why is everything so complicated these days? Why
0:20:44do I need to pay attention to the words I use, to the phrases I use?" 90% of the, maybe
0:20:50even 95% of the time, the person that says those things
0:20:55is a white male and not part of any minority whatsoever.
0:21:00And so right there, there's the first issue for me,
0:21:03which is the complaining that things are political
0:21:07or that you need to sanitize the way you speak
0:21:12or that you need to pay too much attention.
0:21:15Oh, the good old days when we could say whatever we wanted
0:21:18and everything was so much easier.
0:21:20Usually it comes from a very specific type of person.
0:21:25- These types of things, race, gender, equality,
0:21:28stuff like that, they shouldn't be things
0:21:31that we should have to debate.
0:21:33These are things that everybody should be accepting
0:21:38and we should all be equal, but it is just not the case.
0:21:41It just isn't how it is.
0:21:43People aren't this way.
0:21:45So these issues become political or argued about or debated
0:21:50because these people have to do that
0:21:58to make the change that they want, right?
0:22:02Because they are put into these boxes
0:22:07or tried to be like pushed to the side.
0:22:10So you have to speak up.
0:22:12and people that want to have things
0:22:15remaining exactly the same push back against that
0:22:19because they don't want their lives to change.
0:22:23So then you then have two people with completely different,
0:22:28two sets of people with completely opposing objectives.
0:22:31So then it becomes like politics
0:22:33because it becomes debates, it becomes fights,
0:22:35we get protests and stuff like that.
0:22:37But this is purely because individuals in these
0:22:41either underrepresented communities or of backgrounds that are not considered to be
0:22:51the old way or whatever.
0:22:53Like I can't think of a good phrase for it, but like mostly it's like underrepresented
0:22:56communities, right?
0:22:58They have to speak up.
0:23:01And when you say, "We don't want to have these conversations anymore," what you are saying
0:23:08is those people do not get their voice. Because they have to speak up to change people's minds,
0:23:16right? So if you say you'd prefer them to not happen at work, what you're saying is,
0:23:23we just don't want to deal with your thing. Yeah, you are... and maybe this is too much of a... no,
0:23:29I don't think it's too much of a strong word, actually, I'm gonna say it. I think that is a
0:23:33dehumanizing approach because you are effectively saying to those people, "uh, yeah, sure, but
0:23:41we don't really care." Like, it's like as soon as these people were finding their voice,
0:23:47it's like, "nah, you know, I don't like this. Can you just stop doing that?" Like, "yeah,
0:23:50I don't want to deal with that." It's like, you know, you're not really, you're not fixing
0:23:55the problem, obviously, you're making it much worse. And this is really the core of the
0:24:01issue for me, especially with the DHH blog posts. These posts are meant to be, I guess, they are
0:24:12advertised as these deep thoughts, right? On this, you know, and all these fancy words used in these
0:24:20posts, like this deep, like, "Oh, let me tell you the truth. Let me talk to you about tech company
0:24:28culture where all this post is saying is, "Yeah, I've done some pretty racist things,
0:24:39but I get to decide what should be considered racist, not the person that comes with the
0:24:44complaint to me. So I, the white man, and also your boss, have decided that this is
0:24:50not racist behavior. And also, you're not going to talk about this anymore on company
0:24:55It's like...
0:24:57Like, I can even begin to...
0:25:01It's very frustrating because it's like they're making it worse. On each post that comes out,
0:25:09they're just making it worse.
0:25:11And on the other side of this, you have
0:25:16all... you have, you know, people who feel
0:25:23represented in the tech community, people who are part of a minority group, you know,
0:25:29in respect to where they work at Basecamp, and they just wanted to voice
0:25:37their concerns on past behaviors. You can get more details on this in the
0:25:42Verge article, but basically we're talking about the fact that at Basecamp,
0:25:46about a decade ago, some employees of the company, they started keeping a
0:25:52list of "funny names" of customers of Basecamp that, according to those employees, had funny-sounding,
0:26:02I guess, foreign names, right? And it was one of those things that seemed to start relatively
0:26:09innocuous. It was like Simpsons characters, like, you know, like superhe- and then over time
0:26:15started to morph into these names sound funny
0:26:20and what is funny about them
0:26:21is they are not Anglo-Saxon names.
0:26:24- Yes, so the first,
0:26:26like that right there is the first problem.
0:26:28Like anything that doesn't sound like English to you
0:26:33is considered funny
0:26:34and you're keeping a running list of those names.
0:26:36Like there's a privacy angle there also,
0:26:39but set aside the privacy concern
0:26:42that you're keeping a list of random customers and passing it around the office. Okay. Pretty
0:26:49sure that's a privacy violation, but still set aside that there's also the human aspect
0:26:54of this. Like it's not cool just that, you know, to keep a list of people with like,
0:27:02am I because I'm Italian, is my name funny sounding to you? Like are you making fun of
0:27:06me because I'm not American and this applies also obviously to to to you know all kinds of non
0:27:13background all kinds of backgrounds and like look look we've all changed yes right yes maybe
0:27:22over the last 10 years thankfully people were changing fully and thankfully in the right
0:27:27directions so to you know to have a thing that was started a long time ago that is wrong by today's
0:27:34standards. That's one situation and we can look at it and be like we were wrong
0:27:38for doing that and we apologize but the way that the reporting comes through
0:27:43from The Verge seems to suggest that instead of just apologizing there was a
0:27:48lot of fighting and being like you can't complain about it you did it too from
0:27:52the founders of the company and it's like yeah you're not setting an
0:27:56environment where people like one you should be learning and growing and two
0:28:01you need to set the example that other people can too.
0:28:05Like, you can't just be like,
0:28:07"Oh, how can you complain about it or say it's wrong?
0:28:09I have proof that you added to the list."
0:28:11And it's like, what kind, like, what are you, a child?
0:28:14- And that is so wrong, right?
0:28:15Also like shaming somebody in the company message board,
0:28:20like in front of everybody.
0:28:22Like, first of all, like, what kind of,
0:28:25do you think that's what a good boss would do?
0:28:29- Yeah, and the weird thing is,
0:28:31for all intents and purposes,
0:28:33it seems like it was this conversation
0:28:36that created this decree.
0:28:39It's like, why did you jump from that to this?
0:28:42That's such an overreaction.
0:28:44And so this is why people look at this,
0:28:46and I don't know this is the case,
0:28:49but you can't help but look at it and be like,
0:28:51you've just been waiting.
0:28:53- Yeah, or there's like,
0:28:55and there's gotta be way more behind the scenes.
0:28:57And it seems like another aspect of this story that sort of caused this kind of reaction
0:29:06was how a bunch of people at Basecamp started sharing this image that I was familiar with
0:29:13before and now I've actually been reading some more about it.
0:29:20It's a pyramid, it's this illustration made by the Anti-Defamation League and it shows
0:29:25how, this illustration of a pyramid, and it shows how at the very basic level there's
0:29:33things like microaggressions, right? And the idea is that hate and racism starts from the
0:29:41bottom and eventually, layer by layer, you get to genocide, basically. And yes, we thank
0:29:52you Ian for sharing that photo in the discord. And the idea is that it starts so simple,
0:29:59right? With some insensitive remarks, with some stereotypes, again microaggressions,
0:30:07having your language be non-inclusive, and eventually as you get higher and higher in
0:30:11the pyramid, the violence escalates, right? And this image is meant to show how it's important
0:30:19to understand the concept of inclusivity and your biases, because we're all, especially
0:30:28people like the three of us, we all have our biases and we've been growing up, we had to
0:30:35fight those biases and we had to understand our privilege and trying to use it for good,
0:30:44I hope.
0:30:45Yeah, and none of us claim to be perfect.
0:30:47No, not at all.
0:30:49at all. And I still, you know, again, it's the small things and I think it's important
0:30:54to understand that. Sometimes I get the pronoun of somebody wrong, but I don't get upset if
0:31:01somebody corrects me, right? That's the point, right, of improving. You shut up, you listen,
0:31:07you apologize, and you do better. And this is the virtual cycle. Yeah, it's like, another
0:31:13example of this is when, you know, a number of years ago, I don't remember, when people
0:31:18would start using, would start putting their pronouns into Twitter bios and in public forums.
0:31:26And I used to think, why do I need to do that? Everyone knows I'm a guy, like I don't need
0:31:30to do that. And like, and I would see people do it and it was like, and I was just like,
0:31:34I don't know why you're doing this. Like everybody knows that you're a guy. Why are you putting
0:31:40like, he/him pronouns in your bio? Like I don't understand what's the point of that.
0:31:46And then as time has gone on, I've understood, "Oh, this is normalising by me doing it, by
0:31:52all of us doing this stuff."
0:31:55And again, it's like in having this kind of conversation today, what we are doing is playing
0:32:02our part to show to everyone that this is normal.
0:32:07So then the people that are doing it don't have to feel like they have this spotlight
0:32:12on them.
0:32:13as like the only people that would do this are people that need you to know.
0:32:18Like, no, that's like the exact wrong thing to do.
0:32:21So it's like, you know, but like these are the things where that seems like such a small thing to me
0:32:26to like, "Ah, I don't need to do this."
0:32:28But by doing it, by just once making a change to my Twitter bio,
0:32:33I might make things a little bit easier for other people.
0:32:36And like, that's not hard, is it?
0:32:38- No, no, it's not.
0:32:39It's one of those little things that means everything
0:32:44to so many people.
0:32:47And the part about listening and learning
0:32:50and stepping back from your upbringing or past beliefs,
0:32:55what we've learned about what's going on at base camp
0:33:00over the last two or three days
0:33:03kind of reinforces the thought that we have
0:33:05that's not something that these guys are willing to do.
0:33:09Part of the initial blog post was about abandoning
0:33:14the idea of committees, and they mentioned one of managers
0:33:18and like whatever, meetings are lame
0:33:20according to some companies, but there was also a committee
0:33:25that was based on, or working on I should say,
0:33:30issues of DEI, which is diversity, equity, and inclusion.
0:33:35and it was a huge committee with a large number
0:33:39of employees on it, and there was a Twitter thread
0:33:43going around last night of someone who had been
0:33:45on that committee, and that was disbanded,
0:33:49and all of that work is now going to their HR person,
0:33:54and not getting the input of employees
0:33:59from all these different backgrounds.
0:34:01And I don't know the makeup of that committee.
0:34:03I have some guesses, but not only are you saying,
0:34:08okay, you can't talk about these things at work
0:34:11with your coworkers, and then they later edit it
0:34:14and say, well, you could do it,
0:34:15just don't do it in official channels.
0:34:18Do it in Signal or on Twitter or iMessage,
0:34:20but don't do it in work, you know,
0:34:22with your work accounts or whatever.
0:34:24But then saying, hey, I know there's this group of people
0:34:28of employees who are looking and wrestling
0:34:31with these issues and want to push the company
0:34:33forward in these in these areas and then saying that committee no longer is is
0:34:39valid and we're just going to take over that as the company that's the wrong
0:34:44move because in the you know I can say this I mean Myke and I own and run a
0:34:51company together as two white guys and we need and seek out and encourage
0:34:56feedback from all sorts of all sorts of hosts that we work with because our we
0:35:02have historically not done the best job at this. We haven't and we're growing
0:35:06and learning yeah and hopefully doing a better job of it today than we did
0:35:09yesterday and then the day before but that input is so valuable because our
0:35:16experience as two white guys is is limited in scope and we don't I mean it
0:35:26goes back to the top of this work why do things have to be political well these
0:35:30things aren't necessarily political for us things like you know how police are
0:35:36trained to deal with people that they encounter in their work ways that we
0:35:44have fundamental racism and bias built into societal systems as a white guy I
0:35:50don't encounter that stuff I don't I never had the conversation with my
0:35:54parents of what to do if you get pulled over but in communities with people of
0:35:59color that is a conversation that happens again and again and and I need
0:36:04to hear that because I need to know what my fellow human beings and people I work
0:36:10with and my friends I need to know what their experiences are like so we can all
0:36:14move forward together and shutting that down telling that committee your work
0:36:20isn't welcome here is it's disgusting and what's even more disgusting in my
0:36:25opinion is how in this second blog post by DHH, they're basically saying if you disagree
0:36:35with this new company policy, you're welcome to leave. And we're offering everyone a severance
0:36:40package. And the way that they make it sound like they're so magnanimous and they're offering
0:36:47this great deal, while effectively they're saying, I mean, I'm paraphrasing here, but
0:36:52The idea is, if you're not OK with us, again, two white men who happen to be your bosses,
0:37:00deciding that certain behaviors and things we said are not racist, yeah, you should leave.
0:37:07Honestly, I know that these folks have written business books, and they were and they are
0:37:17idolized by a lot of folks in the tech community.
0:37:21I know for sure in my Twitter timeline, I see a bunch of people thankfully upset.
0:37:25Um, but really I don't think they are that business savvy because this is only
0:37:34going to hurt their business.
0:37:36Like this is not well set aside the human aspect.
0:37:41Really, this is not a great business decision.
0:37:44There's a whole section of that blog post about, you know, we've taken too long to
0:37:48make decisions and we're not going to look back and we're not going to consider
0:37:50previous mistakes. It's like, guys, like you, I mean,
0:37:55I haven't been in a business as long as they have,
0:37:57but I know that if we make a mistake as business owners,
0:38:00I want to learn from that.
0:38:02I want to consider what happened and then factor that into future decisions.
0:38:07Like in life in general,
0:38:08you're meant to learn from your mistakes and remember them so that you can
0:38:13avoid them. Like that,
0:38:14that is a basic way of life in a functioning adult,
0:38:19like responsible adult usually. The thing that upsets me also is this whole culture of "Oh,
0:38:28you know, we're a bunch of tech bros and we don't care about the rules, we make the rules,
0:38:34and like we don't care about past mistakes, it's all about moving forward." Like,
0:38:39do you read yourself? Like, do you understand that there's people out there at your company
0:38:48who are hurting and who just want to be heard and just want to, you know, point out that
0:38:54some things you said or did are considered racist and are just not right. And if your
0:39:03quote-unquote solution is to shut them down and say "No, we don't care, we don't talk
0:39:11about these things anymore, and also we don't dwell on the past. Is that really, like, a
0:39:18good... do you, like, do they honestly think this is a good solution? And what's even more
0:39:24concerning is, and I see this, unfortunately, on some blogs, and I see this in my Twitter,
0:39:31I see it in my mentions. There's a lot of people who are upset at me for tweeting about
0:39:36these things these past few days. What's even worse is the the cheering that I see for Basecamp.
0:39:45This is wrong on so many levels and it's dehumanizing, it's sad, it's upsetting,
0:39:53and it's unfortunately a good example of a male-dominated culture applied to software that
0:40:04that we are familiar with.
0:40:07And this hit me really hard because I've been like--
0:40:10I haven't done the best job in the past
0:40:14at really reading about certain topics
0:40:18or educating myself about certain things.
0:40:22And this, for a bunch of reasons,
0:40:25also because I'm in a much better place right now,
0:40:28mentally speaking, than, say, six months ago.
0:40:32I don't know, it just hit very close this time.
0:40:37And it was, I don't know, it just felt like I'm really upset
0:40:42and I wish that we could do something.
0:40:45I know that, you know, maybe just even talking about it
0:40:48and discussing it is something, right?
0:40:51And I wish I had the right, I don't know,
0:40:56I wish I had the right words.
0:40:57I wish I, you know, I could explain,
0:41:01I wish that I could explain to these people, like, don't you see that at a human level?
0:41:08Like, you are wrong.
0:41:12That you should listen, you should shut up and just listen to people different from you.
0:41:18But they seem to be pretty upset in their ways, so it's too bad.
0:41:23I have a couple of things I want to say to, like, just try and make sure I tie some bows
0:41:28that I want to tie on this.
0:41:29So, you know, you might be asking yourself,
0:41:32what's wrong with them saying, don't talk about it at work,
0:41:35but you can talk about it anywhere else you want.
0:41:38By saying you can't talk about it at work,
0:41:40you are communicating that you don't want your employees
0:41:43to be political with their coworkers, right?
0:41:46And so you can say, have these conversations
0:41:48in other places, but if you're an employee of this company,
0:41:51you're gonna be aware of the fact
0:41:53that if these conversations bleed over into work again,
0:41:56you're in trouble.
0:41:57If your existence alone is considered political,
0:42:02then it means that you're not welcome
0:42:05as a person at that company.
0:42:06- Correct, that's a beautiful way of putting it, right?
0:42:09And would you, if you've got a performance review coming up,
0:42:14you're maybe not gonna send that tweet, right?
0:42:16In case you're gonna get in trouble about,
0:42:19they're gonna look down on you
0:42:20because now you kind of have an idea
0:42:22that your employer doesn't want you
0:42:23to be a political individual.
0:42:26There are ways to deal with whatever this problem is
0:42:29that they are having vastly better
0:42:31than what they're doing, right?
0:42:33You could look into new HR initiatives.
0:42:35You could look into conflict resolution.
0:42:37You can sequester these conversations
0:42:39to certain places of inside your tools, right?
0:42:41You can say like, look, we don't want to get
0:42:43into this argument in the general channel.
0:42:45We have another channel here.
0:42:46If you like, please go and talk about it.
0:42:48This is a very normal way of moderating discussions, right?
0:42:53You can ask for civility amongst your people, right?
0:42:55so like let's not get into flame wars.
0:42:57Like you can't raise your voice at people at work.
0:43:00And that also includes in the way that you talk to people
0:43:02in digital tools.
0:43:03You could listen when people talk,
0:43:04you take actions where needed.
0:43:06Like I personally believe that discussions on topics
0:43:10are fair, like that for the people involved,
0:43:14discussions that it's not just one side on a topic
0:43:17and you can come to it and believe what's right
0:43:20and what's wrong.
0:43:21And I try not to deal in absolutes
0:43:23because the person on the other side of your debate
0:43:26also believes in right and wrong,
0:43:29but it's in the opposite, right?
0:43:30So the best way to try and deal with that is to discuss it.
0:43:34Because if you crush people down and say like,
0:43:36your opinion is stupid and not valid,
0:43:38on any side of it, no one can learn, right?
0:43:41So you've gotta be able to have conversations
0:43:44'cause otherwise everyone just gets entrenched.
0:43:46And to Basecamp, to Jason Fried and David Hanomayah Hanson,
0:43:52you own your business.
0:43:53You can choose to run it however you want.
0:43:56If you're happy with the decisions that you make,
0:44:00and you're happy with the people that you push away,
0:44:03and you say to people if they don't like it, you can leave,
0:44:06totally fine.
0:44:08But it's going to change the perception
0:44:09that people have of you.
0:44:11You need to accept that.
0:44:13People will say you're wrong, people will say you're right,
0:44:15but you have to look at who is saying that
0:44:18and decide if that's the kind of company you want to keep.
0:44:22Do you want all the employees that you've got left
0:44:24and the companies, and like the employees that you attract?
0:44:27Do you want to hear people saying,
0:44:29like when you hear people praising you,
0:44:31we're hearing people say that you're wrong.
0:44:34Do you like the makeup of who those people are, if they are?
0:44:37Fine, you do you, man.
0:44:38But I believe that you're doing this wrong
0:44:41and you're doubling down.
0:44:43And so that's on you.
0:44:45If you don't like me or don't like what I have to say,
0:44:48totally fine, like it's a big world.
0:44:51but look at who's saying that you're right.
0:44:53Like I saw somebody post today,
0:44:55it's like this made it to Breitbart.
0:44:57- Yeah, oh, great company.
0:44:59- Right?
0:45:00What company you keep in now?
0:45:01You happy with that?
0:45:02Because they agree with you.
0:45:03So if you don't agree with them,
0:45:06maybe you haven't explained yourself properly.
0:45:09- Yeah.
0:45:10- I don't know. - Yeah.
0:45:11- No, I think that's all right.
0:45:14And I think that it says so much
0:45:16that they're telling people,
0:45:17hey, if you wanna go, you know, that's fine.
0:45:20right like you don't like this that's the door yeah yeah and they can you know
0:45:27base campy stuff of hey we'll give you a bunch of money to you know but the thing
0:45:34that kills me about it and I mean there's so much of it that is so
0:45:38hurtful it's that you know I think for a long time people thought that these guys
0:45:44and that this company was like kind of on the right track you know like I've
0:45:49I've read some of their books over the years.
0:45:52And even though DHH has gone on like a Twitter rampage
0:45:56the last little while, you know, I thought of them as like,
0:46:00yeah, these guys have this cool business
0:46:01and they, you know, they make these products.
0:46:03And as a company that makes products,
0:46:06like kind of looked up to their success and that's hard too.
0:46:09And I saw a lot of tweets as this was breaking from people
0:46:13who kind of said similar things.
0:46:16There was one tweet and I tried finding it for the show
0:46:18and I couldn't find it, so I apologize.
0:46:21But it was from a woman who had a startup,
0:46:24and she was like, "I really looked up the way
0:46:26"they ran their business, and I feel heartbroken over it."
0:46:28And I was like, "Yeah, that's true,
0:46:31"because even though you don't think people look up to you,
0:46:35"people do, and when you espouse these sorts of ideas,
0:46:40"you are putting your weight behind them.
0:46:42"You're saying that it's okay to treat people this way,
0:46:44"and it's okay to shut down these types of conversations."
0:46:48And that's part of the hurt too.
0:46:50You know, it's part of the hurt that I feel.
0:46:52I mean, I feel empathy for the best that I can
0:46:56for people who are inside this company
0:46:58who've had their voices silenced
0:47:00and been attacked by their bosses.
0:47:03But I also feel pain for our community,
0:47:06that our tech community isn't better than this
0:47:09in so many days.
0:47:10And that there are people who are in our community
0:47:13and who are leaders in our community
0:47:15who have this way of thinking that they think is okay.
0:47:20And it grieves me for our little community on the internet.
0:47:25And you know, we want to be better
0:47:28and there's lots of people and I truly believe
0:47:31that there are more people who want to be better
0:47:32than people who don't.
0:47:34But it just feels so dark and so heavy at the same time.
0:47:37- Can I just say one last thing?
0:47:39- Sure. - Yes, please.
0:47:41- David Hannah Meyer Hansen and Jason Fried
0:47:44turned their company into a literal political tool.
0:47:47- Yeah.
0:47:48- They are using their company as examples in Congress,
0:47:53like the home of politics, right?
0:47:57So politics are okay when there's money.
0:48:02- Or when it's in the, really what it is, I think,
0:48:05they're okay with politics as long as it's their politics,
0:48:08it's the politics that are in their hands,
0:48:09they don't want to give that power to their employees.
0:48:11Politics is fine when it's within your worldview.
0:48:14Then it just becomes a nuisance.
0:48:17Then we're off to the races.
0:48:18And I'm pretty sure I saw something where they still want
0:48:22people to talk about the political issues of base camp.
0:48:25Yeah.
0:48:26Like, because like David Hennemeyer Hanson
0:48:28gets to stand up in front of Congress
0:48:30and make his big speeches.
0:48:31Yep.
0:48:34And it goes back to what we said, right?
0:48:36That so many things,
0:48:41things that so many people face in everyday lives due to racism, sexism, oppression, those
0:48:48things have to be political to move forward. And if you don't feel those things, you don't
0:48:52think they're political, right? I mean, the whole the whole the whole worldview is so
0:48:55broken. But you're right. I mean, I mean, it's it's hypocrisy to say that to say, Oh,
0:49:02well, we're going to use our entire company as this weapon against Apple. And like, I
0:49:05don't even care if it's against Apple. In fact, I think, like, it's going to be very
0:49:09interesting to see how this plays out and but when the other side of the coin
0:49:15is well you know we're not gonna talk about these other things we're not gonna
0:49:19allow conversations about other societal issues it's just it's being a hypocrite
0:49:25at best. I do believe people are possible of making mistakes I really hope they
0:49:31change their tune on it. Me too. From my perspective if they do and they they say
0:49:36like you know we were wrong about this and this is what we're doing to move
0:49:39forward, I will accept that myself. I mean, it's on to everybody else to accept it.
0:49:43I believe that people are capable of screwing up and it's how they deal with it. And you
0:49:48can screw up and it's very normal to dig your heels in like they're doing right now. Because
0:49:53when the whole world is turned against you, it's very easy to take that initial view of
0:49:59like, "Oh no, you're just not understanding." And I've been in these situations before where
0:50:05people tell me I'm wrong about something or like I'm doing something and it's not what I mean and
0:50:10I just try and like explain and explain and explain when I'm like just pushing and pushing and it's
0:50:16not the right thing and ultimately you've just got to back off take a beat and realize where you're
0:50:21messing up and if they're if they do that you know I'll be like all right like now let's try and turn
0:50:29back the clock and see where we move from there huh but I don't think that's going to happen but
0:50:34I want it to. Yeah, and it would be if that were to happen, if they were to come out and say,
0:50:41"Hey, we have royally screwed this up. These are things we're going to do to fix it."
0:50:44That could be turned into such a good example for people to say, "Yeah, change is possible
0:50:51in these areas." And I just don't know. Let's take a break. Is that all right? Yes. Okay.
0:51:03We'll do that and then we'll talk about email and then we'll talk about emoji. It's a weird week this
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0:52:44- So for no particular reason,
0:52:46Federico's back on Apple, man.
0:52:49Yeah. As soon as we saw what was going on at Basecamp, we knew, John and I, we knew
0:52:55right away that we wanted and like we needed to do it quickly to move away from "Hey,
0:53:02that's not the kind of service that I want to support, that I want to align my company with."
0:53:09It's, you know, something that we decided very quickly that we wanted to do.
0:53:14- I just want to say on that, like, you know, companies are bigger than people.
0:53:19And I agree with what you're doing. I mean, I'm going to also move the account
0:53:26that I was using away from Hey, but like frankly, I wasn't enjoying it anyway.
0:53:30- Yeah. - You know, hey, listen, it wasn't very difficult for me. I know you loved it, right?
0:53:35But like, it was not easy for me. Like, it's not difficult for me, I should say, because I kind of
0:53:38had a real issue with it anyway, as listeners to this show have been doing. And by the way,
0:53:43one of the reasons we wanted to talk about this whole thing this week is because over
0:53:47the last few months we have spoken about, hey, so much that it kind of felt like we've
0:53:52given them a lot of free press. So it seems only fair to balance it out. I mean, let alone
0:53:58all of the other reasons, right? But that was definitely one of them. But, you know,
0:54:02because it's like, well, you're going to go to Google. Like Google has its own set of
0:54:05problems. Like you have to make your trade offs and decisions. Companies are bigger than
0:54:09just the people. There's also the people that are employed by them. And you know, like all
0:54:13these people, if everybody leaves, hey, they're all gonna lose their jobs, right?
0:54:17So, you know, I think this is the thing that people need to make their own
0:54:20decisions on one way or another and it's basically just like, you know, we're not
0:54:27advocating that literally everybody should close their accounts down now, but
0:54:31if you want to, go for it. I mean, you know what I'm saying? I don't want to make it
0:54:35like this big, like, "Burn them and the steak!" kind of thing, right? And we will...
0:54:40know let me just add to that that some of us didn't like hey before it was
0:54:44cool so you loved it you were in on it big time I got a lot of you made it a
0:54:49part of your personal brand that's not much you loved it just for the joke yeah
0:54:53yeah well not for the service if they know if they apologize or if they
0:54:58change leadership we can reconsider I guess but for now we are not supporting
0:55:03that kind of business ourselves.
0:55:05And so for now, I just wanna explain this.
0:55:10For now, we went back to the system
0:55:13that we were using before.
0:55:14So for over a decade, we've been part of
0:55:18what used to be called Google Apps,
0:55:20and then it became G Suite,
0:55:22and now it's Google Workspace, I guess.
0:55:25Yeah, the business.
0:55:26So confusing.
0:55:27Yes, it's very confusing.
0:55:28We were, many years ago,
0:55:30we were grandfathered into a free plan because we were using Google Apps for domains many,
0:55:37many years ago. And so this is something that we just kept around for free. When I moved
0:55:42to Hey, I kept all of the old users in the Google admin console. So we literally just
0:55:50had to switch back our DNS records and go back to Google. And for now we're doing that.
0:55:58are not happy with it. We just needed to move away from Hey and to have a working email
0:56:03because we also have a business to run and we need our...
0:56:06Yeah, and if you're going to go somewhere, you go to the number one email provider, right?
0:56:12If you just need to something to tide you over if you want to...
0:56:15But I can tell you like all the things I said months ago before switching to Hey still apply
0:56:22today. I'm not happy to be back on Gmail. I'm not happy that I'm using Google. I'm not
0:56:27happy with my system.
0:56:28I know that Jon is already yelling at his inbox.
0:56:31There's different ways that I'm trying
0:56:37to cope with this right now.
0:56:39So personally, I guess--
0:56:42wait, before that, for context, we
0:56:44haven't found any collaborative service yet.
0:56:49One of the features that we loved about Hey
0:56:51was the collaboration, the ability
0:56:53to share threads, to leave comments, and to build collections of different email messages
0:56:59that belong to the same topic or area of interest. We haven't found a good replacement for that.
0:57:07Or by good, I mean something that is not wildly expensive or that, you know...
0:57:15Gotta come over to Spark. Come on.
0:57:18I kinda...
0:57:19Come on.
0:57:20I kinda don't wanna do that.
0:57:21Come on.
0:57:22I kinda don't want to.
0:57:23So we're looking at different systems. I don't know. So right now I'm using Apple
0:57:31Mail again. I'll tell you that my one pitch for Spark for you is the sharing features
0:57:40are agnostic of the email service. I know, I know, I know. Like we used it before. It's
0:57:44just I don't really like Spark's design and like custom menus. I know. But you can get,
0:57:51I mean, like, look, you can get over it, you know?
0:57:53Like, it makes sense.
0:57:56Hey, was a dumpster fire of design.
0:57:59Wait, did you just shut down his email committee?
0:58:00That's not cool.
0:58:02Oh, come on now.
0:58:03I'll fire you.
0:58:05Can't fire me.
0:58:06No more Stephen talking at work.
0:58:08I'm taking the big go.
0:58:09I agree with that.
0:58:09I agree with that.
0:58:10You should have a fancy blog post about it.
0:58:14So right now I'm using Apple Mail.
0:58:19The way that I'm coping with it is, I guess it's been a sponsor of the show before, it's
0:58:24just a service that I really like, SaneBox.
0:58:27Like I went back and reactivated my SaneBox account, and so I have my old and trusted,
0:58:33I guess, triaging system made of SaneLater, SaneNews, and SaneBlackHole.
0:58:40And so I've been aggressively dropping messages into the SaneBlackHole.
0:58:46is the way that I'm trying to deal with this right now. I don't love any of this. I don't
0:58:52love Apple Mail. Like actually here's a funny tech-related thing that I wanted to mention.
0:58:59It's about time. Bring the technology back to connected.
0:59:02Yes, this is a tech show. Well, I mean, this is also a tech show. I think it's more of
0:59:07a human show at this point.
0:59:10What is it? It is connected. That's what it is.
0:59:13So thankfully, from Hey, you can download your data.
0:59:18You can export all of your data,
0:59:20both your messages and your contacts.
0:59:23Your messages, you will get a .mbox file on your computer.
0:59:28And in Apple Mail, what you can do is you can select
0:59:33an account and then say File, Import Mailbox,
0:59:36and you select the .mbox file type,
0:59:40and you let it run through all your messages,
0:59:42and you end up with a mailbox that says imported from whatever the name of the folder is,
0:59:49local mailbox in Apple Mail.
0:59:52So on the Mac, so I was using my Mac yesterday for this,
0:59:56what's really nice about Apple Mail on the Mac,
0:59:59and it's so very surprising that this feature is not on iOS or iPadOS yet,
1:00:05I wanted to automatically file those imported messages into some different subfolders, especially
1:00:14for our billing email address.
1:00:19And I needed to have some receipts go into a folder and some other receipts go into another.
1:00:25And on Apple Mail on the Mac, this is all very easy to do with smart mailboxes, because
1:00:30I was able to put together a smart mailbox that said, "Show me all the messages from,
1:00:37say, PayPal, from this local mailbox."
1:00:41And so that was a filter that I put together in like 20 seconds, and then I just needed
1:00:45to select a smart mailbox, Command-A to select all the messages, and drag and drop into the
1:00:51appropriate folder in my email account.
1:00:54And like it took me what, 10 minutes to download all of my like the all the messages from my
1:01:02main personal address, categorize them with smart mailboxes, drag and drop, reimport everything
1:01:09into my Gmail account. And that was done. Why are rules and smart mailboxes not available
1:01:15on iOS and iPadOS? I don't get it. It's been 10 years. It's been no.
1:01:21get real email done on iOS?
1:01:25It doesn't really make sense.
1:01:26Do they sync?
1:01:28No.
1:01:29Like if you set them up on the Mac, you don't even see them?
1:01:31Oh, that's junk.
1:01:32No.
1:01:33Not at all.
1:01:34Spayed.
1:01:35Mail is old.
1:01:37Yes.
1:01:39It's strange because it was rumored last year.
1:01:42I remember Mark Gurman had a report
1:01:45saying that Apple was looking into more modern features
1:01:48for Apple Mail, things like snoozing, I think.
1:01:51or dealing with...
1:01:52- Oh yeah.
1:01:53- But that never actually happened.
1:01:56- Well, it hasn't happened yet.
1:01:58- I mean, sure.
1:01:59- Right?
1:02:01For all we know that they were working on that
1:02:03and maybe, fingers crossed, wish, wish, wishing,
1:02:06it got bumped to this year.
1:02:08- So yeah, we are right now in email limbo, I guess.
1:02:12Where-- - Again.
1:02:14- Again, we're not really happy with it,
1:02:16but I also think we did the right,
1:02:19We made the right call in switching from Hey, which honestly sucks because as a product,
1:02:26I really liked it.
1:02:27However, the way I'm built as a person and as a business owner, I cannot separate the
1:02:35company and the people.
1:02:37And also, we all make our choices and this is a choice that I wanted to make.
1:02:41This is not the kind of policy that I can get behind.
1:02:44And if you disagree with me, you can tell me on Twitter, I'm just going to mute you
1:02:47because I don't care.
1:02:49And also if you're that kind of person who wants to correct me and wants to, you know,
1:02:54I've seen that kind of, Stephen recently taught me a word that I've been searching for for
1:03:02a while.
1:03:03What about ism?
1:03:04Right?
1:03:05I think it really, it's a really useful word because it describes a lot of people on Twitter.
1:03:10And it describes a lot of people that try to find a fallacy in your argument by trying
1:03:15to bring forth another problem that is totally unrelated to what you're just talking about.
1:03:21And so I got a bunch of people saying, "Oh, so imagine like, 'Hey, it's a problem, but
1:03:28what about totally unrelated issue? Like, what are you trying to accomplish with that
1:03:35kind of reply?'" And yeah, I've been muting aggressively. I don't block anymore because
1:03:40Because I have discovered that blocking only reinforces the cycle of negativity. Instead,
1:03:48I'm just muting people. So they will never know.
1:03:51Muting's better because they never know. And they're just like, they're sending you stuff
1:03:54and you don't even see it. They're just talking at you and they don't even know. It's like,
1:03:59hahaha.
1:04:00It's beautiful.
1:04:01Haha, I win.
1:04:02It's beautiful. They just go into this secret box that nobody really wants to open. And
1:04:07It's fantastic. So yeah.
1:04:09Yeah. And, and as a, when a company has something like this, I mean,
1:04:14some people would say, well,
1:04:16you're just trying to make a statement by saying you're, you're leaving them.
1:04:20But when it's a business and business owners,
1:04:23like that's how you communicate with them. You communicate with your dollars.
1:04:27Some person tried to tell me today that I was looking for attention,
1:04:31like body. I don't need the attention. Like I am the attention. So I just,
1:04:36I don't need to do these things for attention.
1:04:39- I am the one who attentions.
1:04:41- Yes, whatever that means.
1:04:42So.
1:04:44- I just watched Breaking Bad.
1:04:45- Yeah.
1:04:46(laughing)
1:04:47Let's not go too far down that road.
1:04:49- Well, good luck on your email journey.
1:04:53I'm not looking forward to moving away from Hey Again.
1:04:56'Cause like, I know it's gonna be a pain now
1:04:58'cause I set up like an account for another person
1:05:02and like, now I gotta get them to move
1:05:04and I don't know how to move that account.
1:05:06I haven't looked into it yet, but Federico, basically I'm going to ask you for your help
1:05:11at some point.
1:05:12Okay, I will help you.
1:05:14Don't worry.
1:05:15I got you.
1:05:16I should never have done it.
1:05:17Why did I let you talk me into it now?
1:05:20Look where I am.
1:05:22Well, look, I don't regret it.
1:05:26It's like after a...
1:05:27You learn a lot about how you like email, you know?
1:05:30You got that much.
1:05:31Yes.
1:05:32and again if they apologize but like for real and they completely change their
1:05:38policy or you know if they if they propose actual solutions in good faith
1:05:44or if leadership resigns I'm up for switching back but in this situation not
1:05:53at all I'm sorry mm-hmm okay it's good it's time to play the
1:06:00Jeremy's but we're gonna take another break before we do gotta get ready and
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1:08:12It is time for the Jeremy's.
1:08:14Unexpected Jeremy's.
1:08:17What is this?
1:08:18spring. This isn't a big one today, unfortunately everybody. There's kind of only really like
1:08:24five new emoji and then a bunch of like additions. This was a very very small list this year.
1:08:38Hopefully next year's list will be a lot more full but I think of the ones that we've got
1:08:45I think we've got some some real classics up there. So we're gonna be looking at
1:08:49There are five new emoji, four kind of updated emoji and two where Apple have changed the artwork on them
1:08:57And these are what we're gonna be talking about today. We'll put some links in the show notes
1:09:02I think we'll probably have if you have an app that supports chapter artwork
1:09:07You'll see the imagery because Steven's very good at that. So I'm sure he's gonna make one too, right?
1:09:12Yes, absolutely. You got to be able to see we have a list here Federico's looking at the M
1:09:17You got the image in the in the show notes that very yes. I'm looking at it. I'm looking at it
1:09:22so the way that we're gonna do this is
1:09:24Federico's gonna state say what he thinks the emoji is I have the official
1:09:31Wording and that's what he needs to get to and Stephen will be rating Stephen
1:09:38I am going to, because I realize I haven't done this, send a text message to you with the actual
1:09:43names of all of these things in the order that I made them in. So there we go. So Federico.
1:09:50Yes. What is emoji number one? So this is a heart with a fire. Well, this is my, like,
1:10:01this is passion, right? This is the image of passion. This is like, when I talk about passion,
1:10:06I picture this. It's like a heart set ablaze, really.
1:10:11It's the Ricky emoji.
1:10:12Yes. So as for the official naming of this, I think they're doing a variation.
1:10:20It's going to be "Heart Something." So I'm going to say...
1:10:23I'm going to get this wrong, I'm sure.
1:10:28"Burning Heart"?
1:10:31That is incorrect.
1:10:33Why?
1:10:36You were so close, you were really circling this one.
1:10:39You're like, "It's always heart something. There's a fire."
1:10:42This emoji is called "Heart on Fire."
1:10:45Oh my god.
1:10:47Sure. On fire.
1:10:50I really thought you were going to get this one.
1:10:52I was like, "Great, we're going to be one for one."
1:10:54I think it's the easiest one.
1:10:56One of the easiest ones.
1:10:57It is the easiest one. Yep.
1:10:59Beautiful.
1:11:00Emoji number two.
1:11:03Okay, so this is, um...
1:11:05There's...
1:11:07How do you call those in English?
1:11:10I can't help you.
1:11:12Yeah, sorry. You're on your own today.
1:11:14You have to describe what you're seeing.
1:11:17Say what you see.
1:11:19Okay, so this is not my official call on the name.
1:11:23I'm seeing up like a broken heart.
1:11:25However, we already have the broken heart emoji.
1:11:30So how do you say when you're like not curing something?
1:11:37You're mending something maybe?
1:11:41Is that a word? Oh my god, I don't know. I don't know my English
1:11:45Yeah, whatever I'm just gonna go for it mmm ended heart
1:11:57The actual name is Mending Heart, but like come on we're not monsters around here.
1:12:02Okay, thank you.
1:12:03Yeah, they are bandages Federico. I think that's the word you may have been looking for.
1:12:06Bandages. Yes. Thank you.
1:12:08The two heart rate monitors.
1:12:10So, I got nice. I am not a hundred percent sure what you would use this emoji for.
1:12:17Maybe is it is it the response to your heart no longer being broken? Is that the thing?
1:12:22Yeah, like I know you broke my heart, but now
1:12:26Like this is the emoji that you attach to a selfie that you send to your ex when you're with somebody else. It's like hey
1:12:34Broke my heart, but I could imagine using this like like say Steven said something real mean to me
1:12:41And I you know I sent in the broken heart emoji, and he's like sorry buddy, and I could send in this one
1:12:46You know be like how you fixed it. Yeah, it's like hey things are good now, okay, all right
1:12:50So we have we have one right and one wrong emoji number three
1:12:55Okay, so this is the face I make after I mute somebody on Twitter.
1:12:59This is the "woo!" type of emotion.
1:13:04Is that the official name?
1:13:07Yeah, well, I guess this is the sound that I associate with that.
1:13:10I make that face when, I don't know, when you feel really accomplished.
1:13:19It's like, "Yes!"
1:13:20It's like, "Woo!"
1:13:21Oh, that was a close one?
1:13:25Yeah. So what is this face doing? There's a cloud of air coming out of the face's mouth.
1:13:39That's an elaborate name.
1:13:41So like when you breathe, so breathe in, breathe out. I don't think Apple is gonna call it like
1:13:52breathing out face because they like to go for like simpler combined names how do you say it
1:14:03breathing yeah i got it exhaling face
1:14:10wow nice the official name is face exhaler okay don't forget that it is typically face
1:14:19fast for the naming conventions here.
1:14:22I like, you know what I like?
1:14:24I like that you didn't do that because if you would have done that, it could be suggested
1:14:28that you were, you know, cheating a little bit beforehand.
1:14:30Like you were, you were like boning up on old emoji names or whatever, right?
1:14:34To try and give you inspiration.
1:14:35I haven't looked at the names and for context, I haven't looked at the names.
1:14:38I trust you.
1:14:39And also in my overview for iOS 14.5, there's actually like a footnote about this.
1:14:45I had John write that section and it's in the story.
1:14:49He sent me the section and the screenshot.
1:14:51I didn't proof it.
1:14:53I didn't read it.
1:14:55And also it's like there's a footnote that says like, "Hey everyone, John here, in the
1:15:01spirit of not breaking the Jeremy's, Federico asked me to put together this section for
1:15:06the story."
1:15:07Well, this all came from a conversation that the four of us were having, right?
1:15:11Yes.
1:15:12It's like all three of us gave a completely different answer of like someone should write
1:15:17it, I should write it, he should write it and then John took it.
1:15:20Then John took it.
1:15:21That was kind of how it went.
1:15:22Emoji number four.
1:15:23This next, I have no idea, honestly.
1:15:27So there's, this is a face with like a sort of a squiggly line as a, as a mouth and two
1:15:37Dreamcast logos instead of eyes.
1:15:42We're switching cast logos. Ring the bell!
1:15:45Ding!
1:15:45This is the Dreamcast logo.
1:15:48There's also a snack in Italy that is shaped like that.
1:15:53Face of Italian snack.
1:15:56Dreamcast face.
1:15:58No, I don't know.
1:15:59What is this supposed to convey as a, like, "Oh, I'm so confused."
1:16:05I have already used this emoji today.
1:16:07Really?
1:16:08Really.
1:16:09Yeah.
1:16:09Like, "Ah, I'm all over the place."
1:16:11So what is the, I'm trying to, I'm trying to approach. I can't, I know, I know.
1:16:14I can't tell you. I know. I know.
1:16:16I'm trying to approach the Jeremy's this time, like as a,
1:16:18as a test for the actual Jeremy's in the fall. Like I'm trying to think,
1:16:23what is the emotion that these emoji is meant to convey? Because I mean,
1:16:27I got to do better at this game.
1:16:29What is the emotion that is supposed to be conveyed here? So this is a, um,
1:16:34when you are stressed out or when you are confused or,
1:16:40I actually have a fun little story that I can tell while Federico is thinking.
1:16:46So I was looking back through my messages today to see what it was that I sent so I
1:16:50could give context to why I used it.
1:16:52And if you remember the zwidge, remember our conversation about zwidges where they combine
1:16:58emoji together to create a current emoji?
1:17:03And so on my Mac that I'm talking to you right now, I haven't installed 11.3 yet.
1:17:09And the two emojis that I combined to make this one are the face with the crossed eyes
1:17:16and a shooting star.
1:17:17What?
1:17:18Because I looked at it and I was like "Why did I send that?
1:17:20The shooting star emoji?"
1:17:21It's like "Oh, because it was this one."
1:17:23The shooting star?
1:17:25Yeah, I will tell you right now Federico, it is not going to help you in understanding
1:17:29what this is called.
1:17:30I just want you to know that.
1:17:32I'm just going to say "confused face".
1:17:35Incorrect.
1:17:36This is face with spiral eyes.
1:17:38Oh my god, it's literally what I said at the beginning.
1:17:41I view it as dizziness.
1:17:43Right.
1:17:44Or like being seasick maybe.
1:17:46That's a good one.
1:17:48So I'll tell you how I used it today.
1:17:49So I was looking into the possibility of whether we would get a, this is not as big a topic
1:17:57as it sounds like, a different office space.
1:18:00Which is a ticket for the future.
1:18:03Office spaces are available now, do we want to think about moving, like release will be
1:18:08up. Elise is up already. The mega office? Oh no we've got a year, sorry, got a year, yeah we've got a year
1:18:14left on mega studio. We've already passed a year of our two year lease. So we're just thinking like,
1:18:19I know it's bananas, think about it now right like you know just let's just understand what the
1:18:24market looks like and then we can maybe make a decision. And she found this place where it's
1:18:29like for artists, like creative people, and their whole thing is no doors.
1:18:35What?
1:18:37And I sent back the grimacing emoji and the face for spiral eyes emoji to be
1:18:42like, "Ah!" and I couldn't believe this, like my head would be spinning.
1:18:45Imagine a place with no doors and how terrible that would be for me.
1:18:48Mm-hmm. People just wander in and take your things?
1:18:51It was just, I can't even imagine working in an environment like that.
1:18:55Not that everybody needs offices, but just like your whole thing is there are no
1:18:59doors in this place. It's like, okay. Yeah, it's weird. So, they're spiraling eyes. Dreamcast eyes.
1:19:04Emoji number five, Federico. I will just save for context. Steven texted me today and said,
1:19:12"Can't wait to hear what he says about this one." So, yeah, he got that going for you.
1:19:17This is what you see when you're... Vaping? No. This is the steam room face. This is like,
1:19:26you're in a steam room you open your eyes there's a creepy dude looking at
1:19:32you and you see those eyes among the steam right it's like hey buddy any
1:19:40whispers to you I bet people are always naked in Italian steam rooms oh yeah so
1:19:48So this face, why is it a patch of faces? I never get the names of the faces right.
1:20:00Face with steam. It's not that.
1:20:05Incorrect. This is inexplicably facing clouds.
1:20:09In clouds? Clouds of what?
1:20:12How big is this face? Is this face as big as the sun?
1:20:16I don't understand. What is this? Why? In clouds? What kind of clouds? Clouds. Okay.
1:20:26Facing clouds, really. How, okay, so how are we going to use this emoji? Like, what's the
1:20:31purpose of it? If it's, uh, I like it if you're going to sneak up on somebody or if you don't
1:20:38want, oh, I know it. If someone asks you a question and you don't want to answer, you
1:20:41know that gif where you sink back into the bushes? The Homer Simpson. It's, yeah, so Homer
1:20:46Simpson. This is the emoji version of that. Like you're hiding. I like it for that. Okay, yeah.
1:20:50Okay. I like it for that. It's good. That is good. Alright. Okay, so we've now moved away from kind
1:20:57of like, these are the additions, the brand new emoji this year, and we're moving into more,
1:21:02Whilst these are new, they are variations on existing emoji now.
1:21:07So emoji number six.
1:21:10Ah, okay.
1:21:11So the number six and the number seven are, I guess, related.
1:21:16My assumption here is that up until today, the beard emoji was only reserved for the
1:21:30man character.
1:21:32And so I am going to say that number 6 and number 7 are person...
1:21:38So number 6 is person with beard and number 7 is woman with beard.
1:21:45Oh nice.
1:21:47Interesting facts for you boys.
1:21:49So previously there was an emoji called person beard and it's the bearded man emoji that
1:21:56we've known forever.
1:21:58So Apple have actually switched out the art.
1:22:00So any time that you would have seen now like a the old bearded guy emoji, it's now the
1:22:08person.
1:22:09So I, this is really hard to explain.
1:22:11Here's what I just did to test this.
1:22:13I was on my phone with 14.5 on it and I selected the person with beard emoji and I sent it
1:22:22to you guys by text message and on my Mac it is showing the old emoji that is now man
1:22:28with beard.
1:22:29Hmm.
1:22:30Does that make sense?
1:22:31I think so.
1:22:32So they've kind of created man with beard and woman with beard and then person with
1:22:37beard is now the gender neutral version but they've changed the artwork out between those
1:22:43two.
1:22:44It's very weird.
1:22:45It's hard to see why they do it but that stuff always gets a little bit confusing.
1:22:49Interesting.
1:22:50Okay.
1:22:51So there you go.
1:22:52Emoji number eight.
1:22:56emoji and then the next emoji is why all the articles say there is 270 emojis
1:23:02because these next two have like various variations of gender and race that have
1:23:08been added to them yeah I and I don't know like how they called these so no so
1:23:18this we're looking at number eight okay so it's a couple right I'm assuming like
1:23:30they gave a different name to the different combinations of genders and
1:23:37races there's only one name for the emoji and then you can just choose
1:23:43between them all in the same way that like I'll tell you one of the people
1:23:47emoji. There's one name, right? Because all of the people emoji, they have one name,
1:23:51but you can choose between races between them, right? So the emoji has just one
1:23:56name. What is difficult for me here is that number eight and number nine,
1:24:05they both show a couple. However, the... on the number eight, there's a...
1:24:18there's a... what's the difference between these two? Are you sure these are not
1:24:23like the same emoji just with difference? No, these are two different emoji, Federico.
1:24:26Oh! If there's one thing I know how to do, it's prepare the genres. Number nine, they are
1:24:33are sort of kissing.
1:24:34And number eight, okay, number eight is couple.
1:24:39Oh no.
1:24:40- That is incorrect.
1:24:41- And number nine is couple kissing.
1:24:43- That is incorrect.
1:24:44- Oh no.
1:24:45- You completely ruined it for yourself.
1:24:47It's the other way around.
1:24:48Couple with heart and kiss.
1:24:52- But this is not fair because even the couple kissing
1:24:55has a heart in the middle.
1:24:57- I can't help you.
1:24:58- The names are bad.
1:24:59- I'm sorry.
1:25:00The names are what they are.
1:25:01you know, I don't control the names.
1:25:03But you can still win.
1:25:06You have four right and five wrong.
1:25:08OK, OK.
1:25:09You can still pull this out.
1:25:11This is going to be a close one.
1:25:12And these last two, they should be easy ones for you because they're existing emoji.
1:25:17So, OK, so this the number, what's it, number 10?
1:25:21So they gave the AirPods Max design, just like they did with the iPhone and the Apple
1:25:28watch before to an existing emoji called headphones. I know because the headphone emoji
1:25:35we talked about it a few years ago. This one, this is an existing emoji. I've seen it before
1:25:45on twitter for but there was blood in it and I'm gonna guess that the update like this
1:25:56this emoji is here because Apple updated it and I guess that this new version
1:26:01doesn't have blood but has some generic liquid in it. Still it's pretty easy for
1:26:08me because it's the same name in Italy this is a syringe. Correct! This is
1:26:17obviously now the vaccination emoji. Right. Which is why they removed what was
1:26:21previously like a blood test yes you know final score please the final score
1:26:29correct six incorrect five congratulations thanks I kind of wanted
1:26:36to do better squeak 10 on this one Federico I'm not gonna lie I need to
1:26:40have more points I yeah yeah but what the one thing I'll say to you is wasn't
1:26:45really a lot of room for error this time around so I was very happy that we had
1:26:49have these two extra ones to give you that little boost. Thank you. Thank you
1:26:53so I won, so I'm on a winning streak between the apple event and the emoji.
1:26:59There's nothing a champion of Ricky's and Jeremy's right. There's nothing I
1:27:03cannot win these days. All right, yes, all right. I'm very happy. We got one
1:27:11last thing we need to do. Okay,
1:27:13I need to share something with you all just real quick, just on any other way
1:27:19know this all it says in the document is Stevens extra topic me and Federico have
1:27:24absolutely no idea what this is yeah what's going on so I don't know I've
1:27:27kept it from you and I just need to share this with you about something I'm
1:27:32gonna walk out of the room so something well in a way it's a purchase I guess
1:27:40god I swear I'm gonna hang my headphones here I'm gonna I'm gonna send you all an
1:27:46image of something. Oh hang on a minute. An image. Oh my god he did it. Oh yeah. Well no this I totally accept.
1:27:55Oh my god. So. Well. I need to tell a little bit of a story now because it's happening again. Oh my god. I can't believe people keep doing this to me.
1:28:03Myke have you looked in the middle of it? Yes.
1:28:11so people keep doing this to me so yesterday Stephen booked himself in for
1:28:16a tattoo and he was getting his sleeve filled in and because Stephen has a
1:28:25sleeve and he sent us a picture and before the call today I said to Stephen
1:28:30you didn't show us the rest of it and he's like oh yeah I'll send you an image
1:28:35and as soon as it changed it said Stephen's extra topic in a document it
1:28:39started dawning on me but he never sent me the image so Steven now has added a
1:28:46line art version of the weird fish emoji to his do you have both have it in the
1:28:52same place yes it's in the lane by step it's in the same spot yeah well mine's
1:28:57on my right arm but yeah Myke
1:29:05Well, Stephen, how did you explain the thing to your tattoo person?
1:29:11Yeah, yeah. So I had to, uh, I had to do some explaining. So the sleeve is like space motif.
1:29:19So I added like the Hubble telescope and a black hole and some other planets. And then
1:29:23I came up with a line art version of the weird fish emoji and my tattoo artist was like,
1:29:28well, that's not really like a space thing. Um, is that, is that COVID? I said, well,
1:29:34Yeah, that's the problem with getting it today, huh?
1:29:36I appreciate the guts that you had in trying to have to explain that to someone.
1:29:40Yep.
1:29:41So I had to explain, "Well, I'm on a podcast with this guy from Italy,
1:29:45and we have this game."
1:29:47Oh, God.
1:29:49Can you come up with something else?
1:29:51So, yeah. So, there it is.
1:29:53Bravo to you.
1:29:55Bravo to you.
1:29:57I hate you for this.
1:29:59Yeah, you're next. He's incredible.
1:30:00Because you've now put this on me.
1:30:02The thing is, the two of you have tattoos in that area of your body.
1:30:07Yeah, I do now.
1:30:08So if I have to get it in the same place, it would be literally the only thing on my
1:30:11arm.
1:30:12Beautiful.
1:30:13Perfect.
1:30:14Oh my god.
1:30:16Do I have to get it in the same place?
1:30:18Oh yeah.
1:30:19I mean, yes.
1:30:20Clearly.
1:30:21My god, Steven, this is...
1:30:22Alright, I need to start thinking about this.
1:30:24And I also need to talk to my wife about this.
1:30:26This is a conversation I need to have at home before I'm talking to you about it.
1:30:31Oh my god.
1:30:32I just thought that you were going to share the photo of the final design and
1:30:37then I opened the photo with quick look and it got bigger and I saw it right
1:30:42there in the middle it's I had the thought and then as soon as I all I saw
1:30:46was his arm and I just knew it was somewhere and I had to wait and find it
1:30:51Bravo Stephen Hackett Bravo to you Bravo to you you know and I wanted to do it in
1:30:56my own way because you know none of my sleeve or anything has any color sure
1:31:00And so I was like, well, just do an outliney version.
1:31:03Yeah, and my arm is full color.
1:31:05So obviously also the emojis is green and everything.
1:31:09And so Myke needs to come up with his own version.
1:31:13I'll do it my own way.
1:31:14The invisible tattoo way.
1:31:16Nope, nope.
1:31:17That's my way.
1:31:19My way is the invisible tattoo way.
1:31:22I already have it.
1:31:23Did I not tell you?
1:31:24That's not how it works.
1:31:26Steven, this is beautiful.
1:31:27Thank you.
1:31:28I was not expecting this. How long ago did you have this done? Was it like two
1:31:32years ago? Yeah, last episode we did together twenty nineteen.
1:31:37Okay, so I have two years then, but to work out how to do this sure it's fine
1:31:43sure yeah. I did mine last night, so that picture is kind of kind of gross and
1:31:48swollen, but it gets the point across your swell. What can we say? Well, I
1:31:52think that does it. I definitely does what an episode this is one for the
1:31:57ages huh we got range for sure like if there's one thing we got like I've made
1:32:07up for not having a Federico photo album we have matching tattoos yes I will
1:32:11you have matching tattoos for both of us that's true Federico me and you need
1:32:16nothing to get a matching tattoo just for the two of us okay okay this is it
1:32:22we have to decide now do we want the three of us to have a matching tattoo
1:32:25like or do we just want to do it in twos yeah because me and Steven both have the
1:32:31relay fifth artwork right there's literally the same tattoo though which
1:32:35is a little bit different but and now the two of you have a matching tattoo
1:32:39so to me and you need to get matching tattoos or do I need to get one and
1:32:43join the two of you. It's up to you Myke you can either get your hand tattooed or you can
1:32:48get a full sleeve or you can get a giant lion on your leg. So your
1:32:53whole thing is if for us to have a matching tattoo I have to get like all
1:32:56of it I can't just get a little bit you have to replicate his entire sleeve oh
1:33:00no you gotta get the whole thing oh boy sure yeah no we'll think about it if you
1:33:09want to find links to stuff we spoke about head on over to our website it's
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1:33:29and as a reminder starting on April 29th that is tomorrow as I'm speaking
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1:33:41our members connected is going first so go go check those out going fast yes
1:33:47we're leading the way imperceptible Federico just imperceptible I don't know
1:34:00what it was but I'm tingling I don't know where it was membership yeah oh yes
1:34:05if you want to find us online I got distracted by the whispering if you want
1:34:09to find us online we're around you can find Myke on Twitter as I am y ke Myke
1:34:13Myke is the host of a bunch of shows here on Relay FM.
1:34:18Myke is there anything you want to share this week?
1:34:21- This is completely off the beaten track of shows,
1:34:26but people may know that I created a journal product
1:34:29called The Theme System Journal, along with CGP Grey,
1:34:32and it's like a notebook.
1:34:33Well, we have just created a blank dot grid notebook
1:34:37based on the same design.
1:34:38So if you haven't had a journal or you enjoy your journal,
1:34:43products called the subtle notebook you can get it at cortex much calm cool they
1:34:47look really good I love the the cover color a lot thank you thank you you can
1:34:52find Federico online he is Vitici on Twitter vit ICCI and he is the editor and
1:34:58chief of max stories net and the champion of the Jeremy's April 2021
1:35:05congratulations again mm-hmm thank you send you a heart on fire emoji just a
1:35:10second appreciate yep true passion you can find me on Twitter as is mh I also
1:35:16host a bunch of shows here on relay FM and I write over at 512 pixels dotnet
1:35:22now if you do like podcasts and you probably do because you're listening to
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1:35:43or search for material wherever you get your podcasts. Google IO is just a couple
1:35:48of weeks away did you know that? I know very soon. May, May, May. They didn't do it
1:35:53last year so it's I kind of it fell off my radar a little bit. Mm-hmm. I'd like to
1:35:58thank our sponsors this week Privacy, Memberful and Bombas and until next week
1:36:03gentlemen say goodbye.
1:36:05Arrivederci.
1:36:06Cheerio!
1:36:07Oh, there's a lot of delay again.
1:36:13Bye y'all.
1:36:14Oh wow, it got really bad in the end.