191: The Failure Mode of a Train

0:00:00we didn't talk about this on the show

0:00:01but the most important revelation of

0:00:02cases video him sending me the dollar is

0:00:04just how terrible is in writing is my

0:00:07wow so here's why it's extra awful like

0:00:10my handwriting is like chicken scratch I

0:00:12have terrible handwriting right but

0:00:14yours is terrible but then it has an

0:00:15extra flavor and the extra flavor it's

0:00:17terrible you and you do unconventional

0:00:19things you connect the letters in ways

0:00:23that other people don't so it's not just

0:00:24you let your sloppily drawing the letter

0:00:26shapes you decide that two letters

0:00:28should be connected like in in ways that

0:00:30are not normal so it's it's just hard to

0:00:33parse you're like is this this even

0:00:35English letters I don't even know what

0:00:37your boy that bad handwriting marketing

0:00:42before the show that he was having a

0:00:43little bit of troubles with the

0:00:45livestream and and I don't understand

0:00:47why for a moment until you started

0:00:49explaining to me what's going on and

0:00:50then I realized oh yes i'm having

0:00:52similar problems but manifesting

0:00:54themselves in different ways so why

0:00:56don't you tell the listeners what's

0:00:57going on

0:00:58ok so as you might have noticed the

0:01:00tweet that announce that we are going to

0:01:02be live the the time duration that was

0:01:05in that we normally it's like we'll be

0:01:06live in 45 minutes you know usually at

0:01:09tristar livestream about a half hour or

0:01:12a little more before recording and today

0:01:15the time interval was seven minutes 48

0:01:18minutes i forget which one

0:01:19and the reason it looks longer set up i

0:01:22was here at eight-thirty i was here at

0:01:24the 30-minute mark trying to get going

0:01:26and I realize all afternoon and evening

0:01:29hover has been going through this

0:01:31massive ddos attack that has taken down

0:01:34among other things their dns servers

0:01:36market organs who is hosted by hover

0:01:39registered over and I use their dns

0:01:41market orgs VPS is what hosts the

0:01:44icecast server the powers this live

0:01:47stream is basically spent the last half

0:01:49hour trying to first see if i can get it

0:01:51working just by IP address but that was

0:01:54going to be tricky because of various

0:01:56virtual hosting things and eventually i

0:01:58just created a whole new host name

0:02:00however didn't register dot FM's for a

0:02:02while I actually don't know if they do I

0:02:04think they might now but for a long time

0:02:06they didn't register dot FM's so ATP FM

0:02:09is registered at Gandhi dotnet so I

0:02:11quickly ran over there created a new

0:02:13domain name live by ATP FM hopeful hope

0:02:16that propagated in time you know to be

0:02:19requested by anybody and fortunately it

0:02:21did I created that name like 840 and

0:02:23basically move the whole thing over to

0:02:25that and it's point to the same IP point

0:02:28the same server and basically required

0:02:29only a very quick creation of a new

0:02:31virtual host on the market or server to

0:02:33just recognize that hostname give it a

0:02:35little like tiny little HTML page that

0:02:37basically embed the audio player and

0:02:40that all worked and it was great and

0:02:42there we go so now we are streaming from

0:02:46live by ATP dfm instead of market org

0:02:49colon 8080 or whatever it was and

0:02:53actually appears the the dns is my

0:02:55actually had just ended but oh well

0:02:58people are starting to tweet at me

0:03:00saying oh your sites and sites and sites

0:03:02down and out for a fleeting moment I was

0:03:03like oh did I get fireball that's

0:03:04exciting or something like that then I

0:03:06thought no this was just a link post I

0:03:08wouldn't be fireballs for that and then

0:03:10it occurred to me oh no this is a much

0:03:11greater issue entirely it i think it

0:03:13really says a lot about how little i

0:03:15blog anymore that my site has basically

0:03:18been up and down for the last five or

0:03:21six hours whenever this started

0:03:23mm and I got in total one tweet about it

0:03:27oh I'm so i'm so glad that i haven't had

0:03:30to deal with stuff like that in my

0:03:32various server administration stuff

0:03:34that's got to be held deal with deal

0:03:36with DDoS yeah i can imagine especially

0:03:39if you mean imagine if you hover where

0:03:41your you know your your hosting dns for

0:03:43so many people like that that's good

0:03:45that's your business to some degree and

0:03:47God

0:03:48No thank you I'm glad that's not my

0:03:50problem i'm curious for the people in

0:03:53the chat who are recommending different

0:03:54dns providers i guess i don't know this

0:03:57i probably should know this isn't your

0:03:59registrar like the top authority so like

0:04:02if somebody had a totally empty cache

0:04:03let's suppose my burger star is still

0:04:05hover but suppose I host the dns

0:04:08somewhere else like cloudflare whatever

0:04:09if a new request goes to fetch my dns

0:04:12that has no cash information and any

0:04:14stage it away is at first going to go to

0:04:16my register r2 c2 the nse's and then go

0:04:18to the NS so it basically like wood what

0:04:21I have to check my record store in order

0:04:22to prevent this from being from ever hit

0:04:24me again how would you how would it know

0:04:26you go to your registrar I don't know

0:04:28how does it I don't know how did how

0:04:30does dns actually work at the very low

0:04:31level i have no idea you should read a

0:04:33lot of the o'reilly books on dns and

0:04:36buying something vague recollection and

0:04:39the only way that occurs to me now as I

0:04:41think about it was probably informed by

0:04:43my vague recollection is if you've got

0:04:44no information you can't start by going

0:04:46to the name server for that domain

0:04:48because you don't know what the name

0:04:49server domain is so there's a set of

0:04:51root nameservers that handle requests at

0:04:54you know that you that shouldn't handle

0:04:56requests at all because there was so

0:04:58many layers of cashing in between but if

0:05:00you really started from nothing to set

0:05:02of root nameservers for.com and.net not

0:05:05whatever and I don't know who those root

0:05:07nameservers are and I don't know if

0:05:09there is a more complicated system in

0:05:10place that makes this old information

0:05:11obviously because i read this book in

0:05:13the nineties but that is my recollection

0:05:15yeah and other people chatting to be

0:05:17supporting the fact that basically like

0:05:18if you don't use your registrar's

0:05:21nameservers that your regular is not

0:05:23involved in looking you up for dns van

0:05:24anyway that goes up up through the I can

0:05:27and Aaron maintained master server stuff

0:05:30like that you're saying so it sounds

0:05:32like I can stick with her for the

0:05:34registration and just move the dns

0:05:36somewhere else so that's good i think i

0:05:38might do that just move it somewhere

0:05:39smaller basically it's time for you to

0:05:41run your own dns server hey why don't

0:05:44you write your own dns server it's a

0:05:45sense of thing that people have done

0:05:47before

0:05:48just ask those people they they love it

0:05:50well actually it's funny bring this up

0:05:52and I'm not trying to be funny one thing

0:05:54that that I've wondered i keep meaning

0:05:56to ask Marco but i but i keep forgetting

0:05:58about it and this is a perfect

0:05:59opportunity when you're building tumblr

0:06:02and you are giving people subdomains

0:06:05weren't you well maybe not you

0:06:07personally but I'm saying tumblr was

0:06:08making someone was giving people

0:06:10submarines how did that work exactly it

0:06:13excellent question so the problem as you

0:06:18know but our listeners might not you

0:06:20know basically the idea is if you have

0:06:21some giant web service and you try to

0:06:23have people like hosted remains there so

0:06:25basically pointing their dns to you if

0:06:28they're hosting a sub-domain like

0:06:29www.usps.com they can point that to a

0:06:33cname and a cname could just be like you

0:06:36know host at squarespace.com at or

0:06:38whatever and

0:06:38and then that PostScript that can lead

0:06:42anywhere square face wanted to it could

0:06:43lead to a whole bunch of load balancers

0:06:45can be geographically distributed can be

0:06:47moved around between hosting servers it

0:06:48needs to

0:06:49it's great the problem is that the very

0:06:51root entry so like instead of

0:06:53www.icelebz.com if it's just Casey

0:06:56list.com with no W that can't point to a

0:07:00scene that has to be an a record for it

0:07:02to work in a record he needs to be an IP

0:07:04address so you basically have to have a

0:07:08special kind of IP address that you can

0:07:11route to different servers as needed or

0:07:14you could like if you just have that as

0:07:15a load balancer they sold there are

0:07:17certain very advanced routing things you

0:07:19can do to make that not crazy but

0:07:23they're not easy and they are limited

0:07:25when usually only have when you have the

0:07:27IP instead of instead of like a cname

0:07:29what we did for the first couple years

0:07:33tumblr started a rackspace they started

0:07:35out with one server rack space and

0:07:37eventually grew to three servers

0:07:39Rackspace and then it was like oh Sh

0:07:42rackspace is ridiculously expensive we

0:07:44will never be able to afford to scale

0:07:45here so we very quickly moved over to

0:07:48what was then called the planet which is

0:07:49now today softlayer we had already

0:07:51started telling people to point their

0:07:52their names at this one IP that we had a

0:07:55Rackspace's usual it was are like master

0:07:57server with a load balancer on it we

0:07:59moved to the planet we kept one server

0:08:02at rackspace for a long time I i had to

0:08:06be at least two years into intertemporal

0:08:09like insane growth where if you had

0:08:11looked at our dns help page before

0:08:13assert before like you know six months

0:08:16into into the service you your domain

0:08:18would have been point there which is

0:08:20many of our very large users being

0:08:22proxied through forget whether it was

0:08:25squid or a crap what's that shape Roxy

0:08:29yes it was quitter a proxy running on

0:08:31this one rackspace server for years

0:08:33proxy all this old traffic and

0:08:35eventually shut that down i think but it

0:08:36was years and years into the service and

0:08:39then we're at the planet we basically

0:08:40had like some kind of floating IP that

0:08:42their routers could assign to anything

0:08:44within the data center and that that

0:08:45made that a little bit easier and i'm

0:08:47sure with like geo dns you might have

0:08:50more options i don't know enough about

0:08:51say fortunately about time company to

0:08:53care about stuff like that i was gone it

0:08:55was my job anymore but with it but that

0:08:57was all for like me redirecting my own

0:09:00domains hit to tumblr right so how does

0:09:02like something got tumblr.com work

0:09:04though

0:09:05well that's that's just a wild-card

0:09:07virtualhost that's like like the the web

0:09:10servers just literally had wildcard

0:09:11virtual host and the insulating like the

0:09:14the PHP app that would get the invite

0:09:16request which is look at the host name

0:09:17was and then dispatches from there

0:09:19that's cheating why I don't know I'm

0:09:22just kidding

0:09:23it wasn't much i was expecting this like

0:09:25super long and involved answer and I was

0:09:27super simple and boring i'm disappointed

0:09:29sorry but that's alright I'll forgive

0:09:31you this once all right we should

0:09:33probably get to follow proper i think i

0:09:36have all of the follow up this week

0:09:38which is making not very uncomfortable

0:09:40to be honest but we're gonna roll with

0:09:42it if I'm here Casey and you're here

0:09:45doesn't make it our follow-up the am but

0:09:48I am the one who put all of the three

0:09:50bullets into the into the show notes

0:09:52which is I should first and I'm not

0:09:55feeling too comfortable with this

0:09:56I mean in reality isn't always basically

0:09:58John's follow-up basically but here we

0:10:01are

0:10:01so anyway I'm a friend of the show's

0:10:04dietrich-smith put up Twitter poll don't

0:10:08know week ago maybe a little over a week

0:10:09ago

0:10:10it says listening to the latest HP FM

0:10:12curious did you turn on desktop and

0:10:14documents iCloud sink in mac OS Sierra i

0:10:17did and i'm happy with it now

0:10:19steve is a very prolific iOS developer

0:10:22hacker so you have to consider that when

0:10:25you consider the people sort of person

0:10:28that is likely to follow him and the

0:10:30poll results results as we record

0:10:3230-percent yes and I'm happy with it

0:10:34four percent yes and I regretted it

0:10:37twenty-nine percent know and the winner

0:10:3937-percent hell no I just thought was

0:10:43kind of interesting so yeah so thanks to

0:10:46Steve for putting that up i don't

0:10:48believe in the official twitter client

0:10:50thus I cannot create polls I love seeing

0:10:53that the EMT the empty space where polls

0:10:56should be as eyebrows twitter yet you

0:10:59can sense like this must be a pole but

0:11:01this to it doesn't make sense

0:11:03oh well i'll never see it and I

0:11:04you on my way yeah so this obviously

0:11:07this is not a scientific poll whatever

0:11:08it's just twitter stuff the fact that

0:11:11most people have been scared away from

0:11:13this feature like i said if it's a bunch

0:11:15of nerds following you know I never

0:11:17Twitter account and makes sense that

0:11:18they would be the people who are reading

0:11:20reviews and becoming or listen to our

0:11:22podcast and being scared away from the

0:11:23feature so that's why the vast majority

0:11:24of like no I did not enable this feature

0:11:26and that's why hell no wins because

0:11:27these people are afraid of the future

0:11:28because they read scary things about the

0:11:31other possibility is if you know even if

0:11:33they do the things they read about her

0:11:34and that scary they may be in a

0:11:36situation like me where they know

0:11:37they're now liar that they have a lot of

0:11:40files or they have some very large files

0:11:42and I think you've never works for most

0:11:44people i know i'm at the edge of the

0:11:47envelope here and I probably shouldn't

0:11:48enable it but if you just look at the

0:11:50people who did in a bullet most unhappy

0:11:53with it right so four percent yes and I

0:11:55regretted isn't isn't that big number

0:11:56and of course the people are happy with

0:11:57it maybe they're happy with it now you

0:11:59wait a year to see how happy they are

0:12:01because you know all it takes is one

0:12:02thing that goes awry it you become you

0:12:05know upset about but anyway um yeah it's

0:12:08really difficult to get a read on these

0:12:09things without an actual an actual study

0:12:13controlling for all the variables

0:12:14especially when nerdy people like us ask

0:12:17about it because it's a self-selecting

0:12:19group i wanted to also briefly touch on

0:12:22my headphones

0:12:23last week we had talked about how my

0:12:25beloved but ancient and adorably crappy

0:12:28headphones i had kicked the bucket well

0:12:31sort of

0:12:32they weren't cooperating well with my

0:12:33work laptop with Sierra which is the

0:12:35laptop that they're pretty much always

0:12:36connected to and I'd solicited

0:12:39suggestions for alternatives and

0:12:41promptly ignored every single one of

0:12:42them because guess what headphones

0:12:44spontaneously started working again the

0:12:46old crappy adorable headphones yeah yeah

0:12:49i was very excited about this

0:12:51I did you a PM reset which I didn't have

0:12:53a chance to do before the show

0:12:55of course this was I was shotgunning and

0:12:58just trying everything under the Sun to

0:12:59try to figure out how to make them work

0:13:00again and i'm not entirely clear what it

0:13:02was that did it for sure i think i had

0:13:05rebooted at least once it is that what

0:13:06shotgunning means it's like trying to

0:13:08headphones at once yes I'm like that I

0:13:11don't steal shotguns they spray a bunch

0:13:13of little pellets everywhere at least

0:13:15that's my understanding

0:13:16I don't don't don't even

0:13:17me and now we're here for gun people i

0:13:20know place tonight I'm so sorry god I'm

0:13:23so sorry anyway um so I wanted to

0:13:25quickly cover a handful of options if

0:13:28you're in a similar scenario that i

0:13:30heard a lot of responses from the first

0:13:32one the motorola motorola s305 these

0:13:35links will be in the show notes

0:13:36those are the ones I used prior to the

0:13:38ones that i am currently using and i

0:13:41love them except that the battery went

0:13:43to crap pretty darn quickly and I used

0:13:45to be able to make it through an entire

0:13:46day very fast and by honor maybe six

0:13:50months or a year after getting them i

0:13:51could no longer make an entire day with

0:13:53the s05 there were a lot of suggestions

0:13:56for the plantronics backbeat it which

0:13:59have the behind the neck head bone head

0:14:02bone wow the behind the neck brace if

0:14:06you will that I had been requesting

0:14:07because i'm too prissy to have my hair

0:14:09squashed but those were also kind of

0:14:12sort of earbuds into me if I'm going to

0:14:13go here but sometimes we'll just go air

0:14:15pods and battery potential battery

0:14:17issues be damned

0:14:18but those were very very popular very

0:14:21very popular response i was almost going

0:14:24to buy our next set which is the kidney

0:14:27though Kim evo-devo I don't know

0:14:29quinoa a bth 60v to France SI è qui

0:14:36know was that commercial who's ready for

0:14:38some football but food commercial anyway

0:14:41point being the novella bth 260 and

0:14:44there is another there's an older

0:14:46version i don't recall the model name

0:14:48number whatever that did not support apt

0:14:51x but this pair apparently does and this

0:14:54is what I was about to buy when my plate

0:14:58by old bluetooth headphones came back to

0:14:59life then there are a lot of people

0:15:02suggested various kinds of earbuds but

0:15:06with shoulder neck carniss things those

0:15:10things always look horrible to me like

0:15:12those always look like the worst develop

0:15:14all worlds basically it's like you have

0:15:16this like you have the the discomfort of

0:15:18earbuds and and all the crappy sound

0:15:21that usually goes along with them and

0:15:24but you don't have like the tiny like

0:15:25you know tiny little size or wrap around

0:15:27the phone kind of cable you still have

0:15:29this big block of battery

0:15:30crap you have to deal with and it's just

0:15:32like I don't I don't get why everybody

0:15:34likes those please don't write in yeah

0:15:36and i completely agree with everything

0:15:39you just said they're very very many

0:15:41different flavors of this particular

0:15:42example of putting in the show notes is

0:15:43the LG tone pro HPS 750 and again these

0:15:48will be in the show notes are i

0:15:49completely agree with you at the thought

0:15:50of having this thing resting on my

0:15:51shoulders you also have an earbud seems

0:15:53like the worst of all worlds

0:15:54not for me but but definitely on paper

0:15:58it sounds like it would be good because

0:15:59presumably it has forever long battery

0:16:01life this particular set is also apt x

0:16:04compatible etc etc the final

0:16:06recommendation which i'm actually

0:16:08looking into because they just seem very

0:16:10interesting to me is a bone in bone

0:16:14conduction is that what it's called yes

0:16:15bone conduction headphones and the way

0:16:17these works are you have these things

0:16:20thats it pressing against your cheek

0:16:21bones and they vibrate your cheekbones

0:16:24which vibrates your head in the things

0:16:27inside your head

0:16:28hopefully kind of in a not dangerous way

0:16:30a lot of people wrote in to talk about

0:16:32that and i'm actually looking into that

0:16:33as well so the aftershocks tracks as an

0:16:36example that that'll be in the show

0:16:37notes too so if you're in a similar

0:16:40situation you can look at all those or

0:16:42just try to find an ancient power like I

0:16:44have and do whatever magical incantation

0:16:46/ sacrifices i did in order to get them

0:16:48to work so I'm curious its penis because

0:16:52of my whole like inability to

0:16:54comfortably wear anything any year I

0:16:56don't know the answer that i'm curious

0:16:58for all these looks like really tiny in

0:17:00ear bluetooth things what do they do for

0:17:02remote control commands things like

0:17:04volume and play pause and skip back seat

0:17:06forward do they have buttons somehow for

0:17:08that like how do they do that well and

0:17:10that's why the plantronics backbeat fit

0:17:13are a popular choice i think because

0:17:17they have those bars the rest on your

0:17:19shoulders of those those orbs that rest

0:17:21on your shoulders that that I presume

0:17:23have excuse me I'm sorry I'm getting

0:17:25myself backwards we try that all over

0:17:27again so that's why the top the

0:17:30plantronics backbeat it is popular

0:17:32because their ear buds but with like

0:17:33panels on the outside of the year but if

0:17:36that makes any sense at all and so the

0:17:39buttons are on there and additionally on

0:17:41those shoulder harness see things

0:17:44LG's and i think a few people have

0:17:45recommended Sony's that were similar

0:17:47design those I think have the buttons on

0:17:50those little like shoulder pad things or

0:17:52whatever they are that rest on your

0:17:53shoulder so i guess that works for those

0:17:56but i can't speak for any like true to

0:18:00form earbuds and I did get a lot of

0:18:02recommendations actually I can't recall

0:18:04which one was the most popular but a lot

0:18:06of recommendations for just straight-up

0:18:09earbuds that have the cord behind you

0:18:11but if i'm going to go that route I'd

0:18:13rather have like the the one of the ones

0:18:15i have today that just kind of rest on

0:18:17my ears i'm not a big earbud fan

0:18:21although that being said the more I hear

0:18:22about the air pods the more I think

0:18:24they're going on my holiday list because

0:18:26it sounds like they're the best possible

0:18:28solution in that they have almost enough

0:18:31battery life if I listen all day long

0:18:34oh jay bird x2 is all said in the chat

0:18:37on believe those are the ones that

0:18:38everyone and their mother had

0:18:39recommended anyway so I think the

0:18:43airports are probably the best bet

0:18:44because if i ever get up from my desk

0:18:46for like any reason I can pop them back

0:18:48in a little Tic Tac holder and that will

0:18:50probably give me enough juice to get

0:18:51through the rest of the day so hopefully

0:18:53Santa or the equivalent I guess Hanukkah

0:18:58Harry if you will hope he'll be good to

0:19:01me this year and maybe i'll come up with

0:19:03a set of those moving on last piece

0:19:06follow up on this I think will be a

0:19:07little bit more shared front of the show

0:19:09great könig had written a post earlier

0:19:11today about why your next iphone won't

0:19:14be ceramic and if nothing else it's a

0:19:17great post because it includes a

0:19:19screenshot of one of my favorite movies

0:19:20of all time the hunt for red october but

0:19:22what great goes through in this post is

0:19:25why he thinks and that this is probably

0:19:28not going to be a thing and if you don't

0:19:29know Greg he is uh i think a co-founder

0:19:33one of just a handful of employees of

0:19:35luma labs and they make the loop which

0:19:37is the camera strap i have on my big

0:19:39camera as we speak and that was not

0:19:42compensated by what was a gift but was

0:19:44from families or somebody paid actual

0:19:46money for it it's really great i love

0:19:48that thing and so Greg manufacturers

0:19:50stuff for living that's what he does and

0:19:52his point which he had a very long essay

0:19:55and it's worth reading every bit of it

0:19:57but if i were to

0:19:57quickly distill it down he said apples a

0:20:00hardware company and machined aluminum

0:20:01is their primary platform at peak

0:20:03production apples manufacturing roughly

0:20:05a million iphones a day so for Apple to

0:20:08bring a whole new long cycle time

0:20:10process online the sort of thing that

0:20:11would that ceramic would require they

0:20:14would need warehouses with tens of

0:20:16thousands exchanging thousands of

0:20:17machines already squared away and ready

0:20:20to rock with thousands more machines

0:20:22being built the machines that are

0:20:23building the iphones they would need to

0:20:25be thousands of those will probably need

0:20:27to be those machines would be needing to

0:20:30be built to to add to the collection

0:20:32it's already ready to rock

0:20:34so in his perspective there's no

0:20:37freaking way that's gonna happen anytime

0:20:38soon and it's really worth reading all

0:20:40because I'm Way over simplifying it but

0:20:43you should check it out we'll put it in

0:20:44the show notes one just have also it's

0:20:46like in order to to get the machines and

0:20:49tooling and everything set up to produce

0:20:51ceramic iphone cases at the scale need

0:20:54to to to you know to produce enough

0:20:56iphone instrument to meet demand they

0:20:58could theoretically do it but not only

0:21:00would it be like way way way more

0:21:02machines and space and money and people

0:21:04than what they have now but the gist of

0:21:07it was like if they were even preparing

0:21:09for that you couldn't hide that amount

0:21:11of investment and effort like that would

0:21:13take years to build up if they were

0:21:15going to do it and it would you know you

0:21:17would you would see that you would see

0:21:18people talking about noticing it and

0:21:20expenditures you see sources in the

0:21:22supply chain talking about it and

0:21:23leaking information and apple acquiring

0:21:25companies are staffing up you know in

0:21:27certain ways basically it's like it

0:21:28would be such a massive undertaking and

0:21:31just like stuff money and people that

0:21:33they really couldn't hide it by

0:21:35disguising it as a car development

0:21:37program you're always billion dollars

0:21:40will make a car who would believe that

0:21:42anyway some for the past i think the

0:21:44past now for a long time now i think

0:21:46apple has to have been internally

0:21:49looking for their next material after

0:21:52machined aluminum because

0:21:53machine-to-machine little mage began

0:21:55with the the macbook air the aluminum

0:21:57age began something before that once

0:21:59they settle the machined aluminum they

0:22:01had nice that my situation where so many

0:22:04things they made started the block of

0:22:06aluminum and these computer-controlled

0:22:08milling machine

0:22:09James you know would carve out what they

0:22:11wanted and they do that for so many

0:22:13products and that's good because then

0:22:15you've got sort of a solid thing to

0:22:17invest in things to become good at they

0:22:19buy all these machines the machines get

0:22:21faster so on and so forth the part of

0:22:23the the thing that Greg was talking

0:22:25about in the post is exactly how long

0:22:26does it take to go from raw material to

0:22:29apart and ceramic takes longer than

0:22:31machining aluminum because you gotta do

0:22:32the whole baking process or molding and

0:22:35also its first seven and I am I looking

0:22:38for the next material that's a lot of

0:22:40research and I like oh you had mentioned

0:22:42last show from carbon fibre some kind of

0:22:45surround make a different things with

0:22:46plastics I don't think they've found

0:22:49what their next thing is going to be but

0:22:51surely they are looking for it because

0:22:53they're looking for something that is

0:22:56like a net win over luminous pretty

0:22:58great

0:22:59it has something that somebody's going

0:23:01to remove the way he does easy to

0:23:03machine 22 high tolerances that you know

0:23:05that it's a sort of a known quantity

0:23:07they can mess with the formulation of

0:23:08the aluminum has a great points out and

0:23:11not have to replace the machines right

0:23:12because they can all still not going to

0:23:14change from 6,000 6000 7000 series

0:23:16aluminum they can still use all the same

0:23:18machines but it's got downsides to its

0:23:21not radio transparent it bends scratch

0:23:25ability if you're going to have a high

0:23:26gloss finish they haven't sorted out or

0:23:28whatever so anyway feel like during all

0:23:30this time and where in this aluminum and

0:23:32glass a chapel has to be looking for the

0:23:34next thing is eventually presumably

0:23:35they'll find it and when they do find it

0:23:38there is going to be you know a long

0:23:41ramp up into switching over i don't

0:23:44think you know this thing points out of

0:23:46it what are you saying about the time

0:23:47required to manufactured I i don't think

0:23:50they can use ceramic unless they solve

0:23:51that problem exists time is one of the

0:23:53problems they can't really fix right so

0:23:55if they decided some kind of ceramic

0:23:58combined with some other material like

0:24:00ceramic he says the N ceramic at the

0:24:02outside and or something else instead

0:24:03they decided this was the thing because

0:24:05it has more desirable qualities they

0:24:07have to get it down to the point where

0:24:09they can manufacture it as quickly and

0:24:11easily as aluminum or within that

0:24:13ballpark because they're not going to go

0:24:14backwards by like a 2x4 10x

0:24:16manufacturing time they just can't

0:24:18sustain that I think is right that if

0:24:21they

0:24:21made that decision there's going to be

0:24:22such a long lead time that be a wall

0:24:24know about it but as discussed last week

0:24:27like the next one's gonna be glass

0:24:28glasses i think they already know about

0:24:29their aid with the four in the forest

0:24:31this glass in the current phones that

0:24:32you know whatever

0:24:33that's the rumor it's not a big change

0:24:35they've done it before

0:24:36it's a existing material if they were

0:24:39going to do anything with ceramic and

0:24:41the watch was a trial run

0:24:42don't even think about it until like

0:24:44after you have two rounds of this glass

0:24:46down the the whatever and whatever asks

0:24:48are you know actually I'm right now pick

0:24:50up the phone the same and realize this

0:24:53is not an S generation is actually the

0:24:56seven even though it looks the same

0:24:57success anyway we're all confused now

0:24:58but yeah i still think that somewhere

0:25:01out there in our future is apple's next

0:25:04material i remember the liquid metal

0:25:06rumors he mentions that as well they

0:25:07bought that little better company and

0:25:08they had known if they made the sim I

0:25:10think they made the the same extractor

0:25:11to live liquid metal not really a big

0:25:14return on investment for that company

0:25:16but I was another possibility can we can

0:25:18we make can be like injection mold metal

0:25:21and come out with a part that it has all

0:25:23the fine details already on it because

0:25:24it's liquid metal and it flows and it's

0:25:26like plastic but you get me anyway none

0:25:29of those things have one yet

0:25:31I think the ceramic watch tells us that

0:25:33of all the possible future materials

0:25:36maybe ceramic had enough promise to say

0:25:38well even if we've eliminated as a

0:25:41possibility for our phone we can make a

0:25:43cool watch out because this marker point

0:25:44out that's not an unknown material on

0:25:46the watch world and you know they can

0:25:48give it a try but it the requirements

0:25:52for a successor to aluminum on the phone

0:25:54are pretty stringent and it could be

0:25:59that we have to work we have to go

0:26:00through a whole series of generations of

0:26:03this glass phone before we even look at

0:26:05you know carbon fiber or plastic that

0:26:08doesn't look like plastic / l house

0:26:10they're going to do so speaking of

0:26:11phones have you made it to the apple

0:26:13store it will recall i still have not

0:26:15i'm so parenting again so like I just

0:26:19haven't had time to be running around

0:26:21going to stores i still not actually

0:26:22made me up so i think i'm going to

0:26:24eventually because my wife is finally

0:26:27starting to look at like watches and

0:26:28bands and stuff and complaining about

0:26:30the combinations that she would like to

0:26:32exist that don't complain about the

0:26:33sport man colors that seemed not to

0:26:35just anymore and so on anyway that

0:26:37probably means I'm going to have an

0:26:39apple store at some point with her

0:26:41looking at watches and that's that was

0:26:43probably will get me there to mess with

0:26:45the phone

0:26:46fair enough i'm curious to hear what you

0:26:48think after you go and do it so my

0:26:51coworker jamie has a jet-black i have a

0:26:54matte black

0:26:55every time I look at my map black i am

0:26:57convinced that it is i think in my

0:27:00personal estimation my favorite iphone

0:27:03ever i just think it looks amazing and i

0:27:06love it to death and then for some

0:27:08reason or another all i'll grab Jamie's

0:27:11phone and then I wish so badly that it

0:27:13was even a half as tacky as sticky as

0:27:16cheese filling because man that jet

0:27:19black is so nice to hold I I i still

0:27:21prefer the aesthetics of the mat but

0:27:23gosh that jet black is so nice to hold

0:27:25have you considered pine tar MIT the

0:27:27pics right I'll tell you what you like

0:27:29so you know now that another world few

0:27:31weeks and like my jet black one you have

0:27:33any time to look at the back

0:27:350i look this morning just like it was

0:27:37like it was upside down on the bed i was

0:27:39doing was getting dressed and i know

0:27:41some like you know how does how does the

0:27:43back look now after a few weeks of views

0:27:45and I look and it's like there's like

0:27:46three fingerprints on it but it's not

0:27:48that bad and like I had and I hadn't

0:27:50just been offering this is like like

0:27:51organic discovery of the back of this

0:27:53phone in the wild and like there was

0:27:56there a few fingerprints on it and it's

0:27:58fine and there's a few small scratches

0:27:59that you can see in certain light and

0:28:01they're fine too

0:28:02it doesn't matter at all but every

0:28:04single time I pick it up and hold it

0:28:05which is constantly during the day I am

0:28:07so glad it feels good as it does yeah

0:28:10yeah I can understand that I don't know

0:28:12it's it's a tough call I think to be

0:28:13honest

0:28:14jet black or or matte black it's kind of

0:28:17a win-win

0:28:17you mean because i think the jet-black

0:28:19absolutely wins on uncomfort I think the

0:28:21matte black wins on aesthetics

0:28:24personally although it's a close call

0:28:25so it's a win win no matter how you

0:28:27slice it yeah i agree with that before

0:28:29we move on from the material that your

0:28:31phone is made of assuming the glass

0:28:33rumors are true and they do the glass

0:28:34thing what do you guys think is the most

0:28:37likely successor material to aluminum

0:28:39and glass kali like after that

0:28:43yeah i got there after whatever this

0:28:44next one is however long like the glass

0:28:46error last assuming the rumors true like

0:28:48it was because i have to think that

0:28:50apple continues to look for the next

0:28:52material and they will find it

0:28:54eventually it's not going to be aluminum

0:28:56and glass forever and ever

0:28:57I don't think we can say for sure i'm

0:29:00gonna times you but I don't think we can

0:29:01say for sure that they necessarily have

0:29:04to replace aluminum I mean there are

0:29:06certain things in the world that just

0:29:08ended up being made of certain materials

0:29:10for a very very long time because that

0:29:12makes sense for physical physical

0:29:14characteristics or for manufacturing

0:29:16ease or four cost or availability or

0:29:18scale or whatever else but there are

0:29:20certain things that always into being

0:29:21made of that material like airplanes are

0:29:23made of aluminum because there's lots of

0:29:25reasons for that and like that's like

0:29:27there's nothing saying that they're

0:29:28gonna be good replacement for airplanes

0:29:30unless there is pleased airplane Eric

0:29:31don't tell me I just let me believe one

0:29:34thing but there is like a very rare

0:29:36plant example is a good one because for

0:29:38a long time out brains were made of

0:29:40metal until people started working

0:29:42carbon fiber into airplanes into actual

0:29:44airplanes that you know like a sold-out

0:29:46it's not like they're all made of carbon

0:29:48fiber now but that became a viable

0:29:50material for important parts of

0:29:51airplanes whereas it you know in the

0:29:53beginning of our parents lives that

0:29:54atmosphere than existing wasn't using

0:29:56airplanes at all and aviation is really

0:29:58slow to adopt new materials but slowly

0:30:01but surely basically over the course of

0:30:02our entire life suddenly carbon fiber is

0:30:05part of the formula of making a plane I

0:30:08think phones or less conservative in

0:30:10airplanes and especially since you know

0:30:14airplanes have the constraint that they

0:30:16have to like transport something

0:30:19otherwise why they even exist whether

0:30:20it's people are cargo right but phones

0:30:22that the form factor of a phone i mean

0:30:26in some respects until it is sending

0:30:28images you know into it directly into

0:30:29our brain has to have something that we

0:30:31can look at you know assuming we don't

0:30:33go to classes or something but

0:30:34everything else about it it's kind of up

0:30:36for grabs like aluminum it you know if

0:30:40if the electronics for a phone fit into

0:30:43something the thickness of a credit card

0:30:46aluminum is not the material for you

0:30:47because once you have to think of a

0:30:49credit card

0:30:50you can't make that out of aluminum

0:30:51anymore because it will Bend and stay

0:30:53bet and so it's a non-starter period you

0:30:55cannot do it out of a woman right so

0:30:58if we get to that in our lifetime which

0:30:59i think is reasonable will be old men

0:31:02but you can keep making these things

0:31:03that are in smaller than our in smaller

0:31:05and lighter weight and new screen

0:31:07technology and so on and so forth we can

0:31:09get pretty thin and once they get to a

0:31:11certain thickness you can't use aluminum

0:31:13anymore so I and then you probably don't

0:31:16want to use glass because it's just too

0:31:18fragile so you have to go to a material

0:31:20that's been denounced back and you

0:31:23probably want to also go to something

0:31:24that's lighter so I don't you know he

0:31:27you but it's reasonable to say though

0:31:28you could say in the next 20 years it's

0:31:30a little glass that's it or just glass

0:31:32and whatever a sandwich between it is

0:31:35that what you're saying you can envision

0:31:36anything in the next like 20 years or so

0:31:38that's not aluminum glass or some

0:31:40combination i mean i don't really know

0:31:41enough about materials and the science

0:31:43behind them and then the status of

0:31:45current technologies like carbon fiber

0:31:47is a great example we know that might be

0:31:48it i don't know I I no carbon fiber is

0:31:51right now it's it's not used in mass

0:31:54quantities and a lot of places because

0:31:56of various like newness and cost issues

0:31:58and things like that but I don't know

0:32:00about to know whether that's likely to

0:32:03be overcome and in the next few years I

0:32:04really don't know

0:32:05carbon fiber I think would have many of

0:32:07the same advantages of ceramic in that

0:32:10way i assume its radio transparent i

0:32:13assume it can be very thin and light and

0:32:15strong based on the little I know about

0:32:17it so it seems like it could be really

0:32:19cool but I don't know if they can make

0:32:21enough of it i mean if you think about

0:32:22like where you might see it first

0:32:25certainly the iphone is a very high

0:32:28profit very high-profile prestigious

0:32:31device but it wouldn't surprise me if

0:32:34you saw carbon fiber first appearance

0:32:35something lower volume that could maybe

0:32:37sell for even more maybe a macbook pro

0:32:39you know maybe you see a macbook pro you

0:32:42know lid casing or bottom casing or

0:32:44maybe even the entire case made of

0:32:46carbon fiber I have no idea but that

0:32:49would be a place where like you could

0:32:50actually really use more of a weight

0:32:52savings and you could charge more and

0:32:54have more of a profit margin to kind of

0:32:55cover the cost of it and you would need

0:32:57to make as many of them as you would

0:32:59make with the iphone so I I think

0:33:01they're going to use something like

0:33:02carbon fiber probably gonna see it first

0:33:04somewhere else not then the phone but I

0:33:08really have no idea

0:33:09now

0:33:10I was going to say carbon fiber as well

0:33:11but I i'm not i am not confident in that

0:33:14idea because I thought that carbon fiber

0:33:17is just a nightmare to work with and

0:33:19doesn't like splinter really badly if

0:33:21you kinda or maybe I guess that's

0:33:23fiberglass which I'm not recommending

0:33:24I'm just saying I just thought it was a

0:33:26nightmare to work with

0:33:27I think carbon fiber does shatter the

0:33:29lights and that one of the problems at

0:33:31home maybe that's it

0:33:32yeah did I mean it's an interesting

0:33:34thought exercise for sure but i think

0:33:35this is 3 blind men leading themselves

0:33:38around in a circle

0:33:40you know I I don't that like Marcus I

0:33:42don't know anything about materials

0:33:44really so i'm not sure what's even

0:33:45reasonable what would you say John I

0:33:47basically agree with all the things that

0:33:49you touched on like everything exact

0:33:51same thing is Margo in terms of like

0:33:53that this was getting up with the credit

0:33:55card type thing aluminum is great right

0:33:57up to the point where you start reaching

0:33:58a certain minimum thickness and then you

0:34:01have the bending problem right because

0:34:03aluminum is not all about springing back

0:34:05and it its we have a good analogy in the

0:34:09car industry where for many many years

0:34:12cars were made of steel and then more

0:34:14exotic cars incorporated aluminum parts

0:34:16but you're weird and harder to

0:34:17manufacture don't remember when we were

0:34:19kids like I already had a little cars

0:34:20and was like oh but those are a

0:34:21nightmare to do bodywork on because

0:34:23everyone knows how to do steel and

0:34:25aluminum is harder to work with all

0:34:26sorts of reasons that like making you

0:34:29know mechanics and body repair people

0:34:30will tell you that aluminum cars are

0:34:31paying the but fast forward to today

0:34:34aluminum is everywhere it is trickling

0:34:35down the carline it's not just on exotic

0:34:38supercars anymore

0:34:40what's on exotic supercars these days

0:34:41ago super-hard is essentially entirely

0:34:43made out of carbon fiber like that the

0:34:44Koenigsegg one has carbon rubber wheels

0:34:46for crying out loud like and it's okay

0:34:49let's find for carbon fiber for exotic

0:34:51cars but carbon fiber just like aluminum

0:34:52before I feel like will be trickling

0:34:54down and like seven on cars very often

0:34:57especially a very expensive fancy cars

0:34:59it'll be aluminum and steel but on the

0:35:02lightweight model they will replace

0:35:04certain parts with carbon fiber very

0:35:07often the roof the hood things that are

0:35:09thin not really load-bearing but very

0:35:11large like marketing with the back of

0:35:13macro and I mean cars you're not

0:35:17supposed to touch anything so they

0:35:18should be bending but macbooks if they

0:35:21make them really thin like think of the

0:35:22current mac

0:35:23that's starting to push the limits of

0:35:25been doing this if you want to go much

0:35:27thinner and you probably will be able to

0:35:28considering like that the iphone is

0:35:30probably faster than the current macbook

0:35:31and the iphone is a really small that a

0:35:3310 is really small

0:35:34if you want to go much thinner and you

0:35:37want to make a more lightweight version

0:35:39of that that's more resilient making the

0:35:41top case of a macbook pro active carbon

0:35:43fiber starts to make sense and because

0:35:44carbon fiber i think is inevitably going

0:35:46to trickle down the automotive ladder in

0:35:49our lifetime

0:35:49it's just the way the industry goes

0:35:51there will be an ever-increasing

0:35:53expertise in dealing with and

0:35:55manufacturing carbon fiber so that's

0:35:58that's my number one pick for the

0:35:59successor because things will get

0:36:01thinner it has the advantage of radio

0:36:03transparency is really light is really

0:36:05strong the difficulty is that you can't

0:36:06like machine fine details into it it's

0:36:08more of a pain to deal with like hoping

0:36:12that the rest of the manufacturing

0:36:14industries starting with aviation

0:36:15supercars and coming down to regular

0:36:17cars or ever will will start to work out

0:36:19the details of a carbon fiber

0:36:20manufacturing process that makes it

0:36:22viable in a way that it is not now that

0:36:24makes it viable for manufacturing phones

0:36:28all the charms carbon fiber is not ready

0:36:29transparent so I don't know that's good

0:36:31that maybe another thing that they can

0:36:33tackle they could always just have

0:36:35antennae lines smoothly etched into the

0:36:37carbon fiber like they do with the

0:36:39aluminum today anyway there we go

0:36:41ceramic antenna lines that a

0:36:42carbon-fiber plate

0:36:43ya know ya know sometimes erratic is

0:36:46ceramic the reason we're even talking

0:36:47about that is because apple introduced

0:36:49this really shiny phone the scratches

0:36:51really easily i'm like oh well it would

0:36:52be nice if it could be smooth but also

0:36:54not scratchy and then that's how we get

0:36:56the whole carbon fiber thing o carbon

0:36:57fiber shatters and chips and so on and

0:36:59so forth all these all these different

0:37:03properties i feel like within the realm

0:37:05of metals and ceramics and even plastic

0:37:07that's my second pic by the way carbon

0:37:09fiber is my exciting pick my boring pic

0:37:11is as you get really really thin you

0:37:13know what for something the size of a

0:37:15phone not necessarily the size of a

0:37:17laptop or something the size of a phone

0:37:18maybe not the big phone plastic that has

0:37:22a lot has a lot of desirable qualities

0:37:24plastic we know all that plastic it

0:37:27scratches more easily than the hard

0:37:28metals it will shatter eventually but it

0:37:31bends in springs back and can take a

0:37:33beating

0:37:34and you still got the problem of the

0:37:35screen floating out there we haven't

0:37:36even talked about mostly just talked

0:37:37about the back of the thing i don't see

0:37:39any anything other than glass for the

0:37:40front of the thing until the whole thing

0:37:41is Benny piece of plastic and then you

0:37:43can have it be glass at all because the

0:37:45whole thing is like a row you can roll

0:37:47it up or whatever and you can't make

0:37:48that out of class and then we just have

0:37:49to accept that it's plastic and they're

0:37:52so cheap that if you get scratched up

0:37:53you just go to the apple store and they

0:37:56give you a new one for 50 bucks or

0:37:57something but will be dead then so don't

0:38:00worry about it responds this week by

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0:39:19there's been a brouhaha there's been a

0:39:22kerfuffle there's been i'm out of

0:39:25adjectives so there's been a thing and

0:39:27apple and an independent developer are

0:39:31kind-of sort-of duking it out and that's

0:39:33not usually happy for anyone involved

0:39:37and particularly for those watching from

0:39:38the sidelines because oftentimes this

0:39:41has pretty big implications on on your

0:39:44own business so i'm trying to think that

0:39:48there's so many angles to this story and

0:39:50i'm i'm trying to figure out the best

0:39:52way to summarize and we'll put links in

0:39:54the show notes to MJ sighs summary post

0:39:57there's two of them and they're really

0:39:59good

0:39:59Michael sighs but the super super quick

0:40:03version and then we'll add details in a

0:40:05moment is that this gentleman bog dan

0:40:10and I don't have a blessing funny but

0:40:12anyway uh pesco he had released many

0:40:14apps may be but certainly in disputed

0:40:17Lee was the author of an app called dash

0:40:19which I actually haven't used which is

0:40:21probably criminal because from

0:40:22everything mr. now its from everything

0:40:24i've ever heard it is phenomenal and I

0:40:26don't say that sarcastically but to use

0:40:28the built-in exco documentation like an

0:40:30animal

0:40:30no safari usually because I don't trust

0:40:33the built-in stuff search abilities but

0:40:35anyway I identical sucks but yeah so I i

0:40:39will be the first to admit I'm missing

0:40:40out on this and in again I'm not trying

0:40:43to be sarcastic genuinely from

0:40:44everything i've ever heard from anyone

0:40:46who has ever touched dash it is

0:40:47phenomenal

0:40:48well all of a sudden his developer

0:40:51account got shut down

0:40:52maybe that's a little bit up for debate

0:40:54but all of a sudden get shut down he

0:40:56kind of tries to talk to apple doesn't

0:40:58get a lot of information out of them

0:41:00eventually starts posting about it's now

0:41:02at people other independent developers

0:41:05like Marco for example starting to say

0:41:06hey this doesn't feel right what's going

0:41:08on here

0:41:09eventually he gets in contact with Apple

0:41:11things seem to be making forward

0:41:14progress then Apple goes to the press

0:41:17and says well he's getting booted from

0:41:19the app store because he's done some

0:41:21really nice various stuff

0:41:23meanwhile bogdan is thinking well I

0:41:26thought we were still in the midst of a

0:41:27dialogue what's going on here so then he

0:41:29escalates

0:41:31writes his own post again links will be

0:41:33in the show notes I've writes his own

0:41:35post that includes among other things a

0:41:37roughly 10 minute phone call recording

0:41:39of a 10-minute phone call between him

0:41:41and an apple representative which i'm

0:41:45not sure that was the most morally sound

0:41:48choice but i can understand why I did it

0:41:50and then since all this happened the

0:41:54armchair archaeologists have been

0:41:57digging into what's going on and whether

0:42:00or not things are awry because it seems

0:42:04to be that the disconnect is there were

0:42:07two accounts that were linked in some

0:42:09way shape or form the the method of that

0:42:12Lincoln how end and how tenuous that

0:42:15link was is up for debate but it seems

0:42:17clear that there's absolutely a link

0:42:19between two different developer accounts

0:42:21and one of the accounts it seems like

0:42:25everyone involved isn't debating that it

0:42:28was involved in some kind of shady

0:42:30practices trying to buy good reviews for

0:42:33their own apps trying to put bad reviews

0:42:35for competitors apps and just generally

0:42:38being shady now bogdan's perspective is

0:42:41hey I open that account for a relative

0:42:43of mine i did it using my credit card

0:42:46because in other countries having a

0:42:48credit card isn't necessarily a given

0:42:50like it's sort of is in America and

0:42:53after that I walked away

0:42:55they're the ones that are doing all this

0:42:56nefarious terrible things i'm not i'm

0:42:59getting i'm just collateral damage here

0:43:01and that's not fair

0:43:02so there was some back and forth like I

0:43:05said between Apple and he Apple

0:43:07apparently wanted him to write a blog

0:43:09post saying basically hey apple just got

0:43:15confused but we've straightened it out

0:43:17it's all good now and then he allegedly

0:43:19would have been allowed to get back in

0:43:22the app store this is before he

0:43:23escalated with the phone call and I

0:43:25believe before Apple escalated by going

0:43:27to the press

0:43:28so there's a lot of other avenues here

0:43:31the armchair archaeologists seem to have

0:43:33found a lot of different ways that point

0:43:36to all the shady apps actually having

0:43:38been him as well and not some other

0:43:39relative and we can go into that if need

0:43:42be but this is one of those that you

0:43:45nations where everyone seems wrong

0:43:47everyone seems right and nobody's clear

0:43:49what what the real story is which makes

0:43:52it very interesting and many people

0:43:54joked that maybe cereal season 3 will be

0:43:57of help that but but but it's hard to

0:44:00make heads or tails of it and and i'm

0:44:03not sure if i had to choose sides who I

0:44:07side with and I think the reality of the

0:44:09situation is i kinda side with both

0:44:11inside with neither all at once which i

0:44:13know is kind of a cop-out but that's

0:44:14really how I feel so let's start by

0:44:18asking before we get into our opinions

0:44:19about this is that a relatively ok

0:44:21summary did I miss any really important

0:44:23points

0:44:24I think you got it i mean i think your

0:44:27characterization of what Apple wanted

0:44:28him to do in that blog post is is not

0:44:31quite there but close enough

0:44:33alright John any other thoughts going to

0:44:35say that uh some of the it's it's not

0:44:39clear

0:44:41uh we have the rough timeline of events

0:44:43from the outside but because Apple is so

0:44:46tight-lipped about everything I i still

0:44:50feel like we don't really have their

0:44:52side of the story they're never going to

0:44:53give it to us right so we it's kind of

0:44:55like we have the black hole that is

0:44:56apple and then we have a leak of their

0:44:59private communications with this

0:45:00recording and then we have the

0:45:03discussion for the developer but apples

0:45:04never apples not going to for instance

0:45:06like it would you characterize your like

0:45:07oh then Apple went to the press with

0:45:09this thing that said this thing like we

0:45:11have no idea if that statement was

0:45:14written and distributed through the

0:45:16bureaucracy before that call even took

0:45:18place and apples not going to clarify

0:45:19they're not going to go by the way you

0:45:21may think you've heard this but really

0:45:22actually this is that when I can't tell

0:45:23if it's like not our business what goes

0:45:25on inside their company and also i feel

0:45:27like the the communication I the public

0:45:31communications all the different sites

0:45:32if you look at it

0:45:34my recollection is that basically it

0:45:37doesn't tell you the details to let you

0:45:38know all the nuances that the developers

0:45:41blog post went into but it also doesn't

0:45:45say anything that is false from the

0:45:46perspective of apple with their

0:45:48terminology which will be sure we'll get

0:45:50into later like from Apple's perspective

0:45:52this is the real system this is these

0:45:53are the set of rules they matched on

0:45:55this particular set of behavior they

0:45:56took this action

0:45:58and that's what they're distributing an

0:46:00apple is basically putting that out in

0:46:02response to the original careful about

0:46:0510 developers getting squished again and

0:46:08so I would say that like it's difficult

0:46:10to know is a difficult to know Apple

0:46:12side of the story like we get the

0:46:13developer side is a developer not only

0:46:15is free to say whatever he wants to the

0:46:18public but seems very willing to say and

0:46:20do whatever feels like the public which

0:46:22is fine but Apple is totally unwilling

0:46:24to do that so I still feel like we are

0:46:26all at a disadvantage on the outside in

0:46:28terms of knowing what the real deal is

0:46:30yeah i mean i-i think trying to figure

0:46:33out all the details of what happened is

0:46:35not productive for any of us possibly

0:46:38even them because you know we weren't

0:46:41there

0:46:41these are private communications for the

0:46:43most part we have seen very little of

0:46:45them we don't really know this developer

0:46:48well you know we use app but you know

0:46:50none of us know him to know like for

0:46:53sure you know how complete he's probably

0:46:55being who knows you know it and we also

0:46:57don't know if Apple's being complete and

0:46:59truthful in their statements we have no

0:47:01way to evaluate these these really you

0:47:03know so all we can really do is is try

0:47:05to judge this or first week we can just

0:47:07ignore it which is one valid option I i

0:47:11think are the the communities initial

0:47:13reaction of hey this looks like a

0:47:15mistake because this app you know before

0:47:17we knew about the second account with

0:47:19all the other crazy apps like this app

0:47:21is really good and has lots of

0:47:23legitimate five star reviews what need

0:47:26would this person have to buy fake

0:47:28reviews or to get suspended like it

0:47:30seemed ridiculous and so we were all

0:47:32yelling last week on Twitter

0:47:33hey this doesn't look right can somebody

0:47:35apple-like look into this again or

0:47:37explain this like that was the main just

0:47:39everyone's demand last week when it blew

0:47:40up

0:47:41well the the reason he was talking about

0:47:42it all is because he made an initial

0:47:44blog post read you might be wondering

0:47:46what happened to the dash

0:47:48here's the deal I'm not sure what's

0:47:49going on but they said my account is

0:47:51pulled and it's and I can appeal the

0:47:52process like so that's how that's why we

0:47:54knew about it at all because he went to

0:47:56the public and said to explain why his

0:47:58apps are certainly not available because

0:48:00people use apples popular and that's it

0:48:04I think the main thing I think we can

0:48:06take away from this entire thing is how

0:48:08the apple developer community

0:48:11reacts to it like because reaction

0:48:14doesn't happen in a vacuum so the

0:48:15context of all the past history so when

0:48:17we all collectively saw this story from

0:48:20a developer and there was any other

0:48:21reason we saw because we all do you know

0:48:22where in the traveling developer circles

0:48:24online and developer blogs and you know

0:48:26anyway when we saw that because of the

0:48:29past history of App Store rule

0:48:34enforcement and policies that you know

0:48:37that don't seem right to developers but

0:48:40you know the history of conflict the

0:48:41history of arbitrary decisions that

0:48:44don't make any sense or that our

0:48:46community of developers in ways that

0:48:48shouldn't be or you know honest mistakes

0:48:50or whatever that context is why we have

0:48:53this reaction because it's not this this

0:48:55event is not a thing this event just

0:48:57highlights hey how does the apple

0:48:59developer community feel about Apple and

0:49:01the app store at this moment in time are

0:49:03they inherently suspicious

0:49:05do they give Apple the benefit of the

0:49:06doubt that they give developers but i

0:49:08like it so clearly showed that the

0:49:10current context despite positive changes

0:49:12is that we will all readily believe that

0:49:17the giant faceless bureaucracy that is

0:49:20the apple app store i can and does do

0:49:24things that are you know it

0:49:26best-case mistakes or worst case like

0:49:28just wrongheaded decisions right so

0:49:30that's that I feel like was at it you

0:49:32know part of a tumor marker right is

0:49:33that like this is a good app and we kind

0:49:35of like you know do virtual transfer

0:49:38like application good

0:49:39therefore developer good which is not

0:49:40valid transfer but you're like it just

0:49:43didn't seem like if you've got a quality

0:49:45of the people like that that you're

0:49:47known for what reason do you have like

0:49:49she'd interviews or anything before we

0:49:50do that but like it just seemed like all

0:49:52right and and but I really think the

0:49:54most important thing is that the tablet

0:49:56takeaway from this is that people's

0:49:58developers still don't trust that we are

0:50:01going to do the right thing and that

0:50:04when they see anything that even looks

0:50:05like one of those past situations where

0:50:08we've been in the wrong or done

0:50:09something that was not productive

0:50:10they will immediately believe it so that

0:50:13you know they'll know they have made

0:50:15progress when a similar event happens

0:50:17and the reaction from the developer

0:50:19community is not immediate suspicion

0:50:21that Apple has screwed a small developer

0:50:23again

0:50:24yeah and and i think at you know an

0:50:26apples-to-apples credit though this

0:50:29ability to totally terminate somebody's

0:50:31developer account is probably used

0:50:34everyday for lots of different

0:50:36fraudulent accounts that are trying

0:50:38their you know conducting fraud or spam

0:50:40or scams or something that they probably

0:50:43turn it turn a developer account every

0:50:45day and I can't think I mean maybe I'm

0:50:47wrong please let me know if i'm wrong i

0:50:50can't remember a single previous

0:50:52instance in the eight years of the app

0:50:53store where it seemed like someone's

0:50:55developer account was terminated wrongly

0:50:57has that ever happened that we that we

0:50:58learned about well I mean the equivalent

0:51:01is like we're rejecting your update even

0:51:03though you've gotta crash here for some

0:51:04unknown reason the other didn't

0:51:06terminate your developer account but but

0:51:07effectively effectively it's the same

0:51:09thing and noe i mean this is more severe

0:51:11and this is what this is much more

0:51:13severe it is but like see the reason the

0:51:15reason I think you don't see people

0:51:16complain about termination is because I

0:51:18I think you're right the termination

0:51:19happens all the time but it happens to

0:51:21known bad actors and it's part of the

0:51:23cost of doing business in on bad actress

0:51:24bad actors get their countermand all

0:51:26time there's open a new one like that's

0:51:28their business is open up a new account

0:51:29do something against the rules if as

0:51:32long as you can when your account gets

0:51:33closed open up another one like that's

0:51:35that's their entire mo like that their

0:51:37life's the life cycle of the fraudster

0:51:39coming up star is right and so of course

0:51:41they're not going to complain about it

0:51:42why would think that's just like how the

0:51:44system works from their perspective so I

0:51:47think this is just a you know that all

0:51:49the the legitimate developers have the

0:51:51review problems or whatever they'll get

0:51:53shut down this looks like a cross over

0:51:55those two worlds the rolled over there

0:51:57were no one ever complains but everyone

0:51:58knows you're going to shut down like a

0:51:59week or two but sometimes it's slow bad

0:52:01you can make a lot of money in the

0:52:02meantime and then this world over here

0:52:04where it's like historically sometimes

0:52:07apple rejected legitimate application

0:52:08and be frustrating or whatever but

0:52:09eventually you'll get through it except

0:52:12for the people who are like you know

0:52:13after this type are no longer allowed

0:52:15period they just have to stop

0:52:16development that's also very similar in

0:52:18terms like oh we don't want to make

0:52:19launch wraps for a couple years or but I

0:52:21don't know that's a good example that

0:52:22that where Apple categorically decides

0:52:24that this type of application is allowed

0:52:26anymore even though we have previously

0:52:27allowed it but this is like crossing

0:52:29over of and because and it's not that

0:52:32much of a crossover because there is

0:52:33like you said everyone agrees there's

0:52:34some kind of fraudulent activity on

0:52:36account

0:52:37where the argument is whether that

0:52:40fraudulent activity should meet this

0:52:41other account gets closed right so this

0:52:43is the meeting of those worlds

0:52:45the only question is is that meeting you

0:52:49know is it legitimate to do collective

0:52:51punishment because the accounts use the

0:52:53same test devices in the same credit

0:52:54card number which from a perspective is

0:52:56the only way they have to tell they

0:52:57can't see what's inside the computer

0:52:58right so that you can get that all they

0:53:00have this data and their data says same

0:53:02test devices same credit card number

0:53:04same legal entity and you know from a

0:53:07legal perspective like not from a

0:53:09practical perspective from a legal

0:53:11perspective like that's how the Apple ID

0:53:13system works that's how developer thing

0:53:15works there they want information about

0:53:17you to connect to it is essentially to

0:53:19connect to entity that they can sue or

0:53:21that is legally represented writing so

0:53:23if you if you use all the same

0:53:26information they used to establish what

0:53:29the entity is for multiple accounts it's

0:53:31all the same entity like that's the

0:53:32whole point of you doing this like Marco

0:53:34has multiple attention multiple things

0:53:36for your various yeah like right and but

0:53:40that's like it if they were all come you

0:53:42know separate or combined like that's

0:53:45how things work in the business world we

0:53:47don't care what physical person is

0:53:49sitting for another thing they just care

0:53:50what the legal entity is and where the

0:53:51liability lives right now the more human

0:53:54side of it is what if you do live in a

0:53:56country where it's not easy credit cards

0:53:58and you do a favor for somebody and you

0:54:00you're not a lawyer and not thinking

0:54:02about the fact that now you essentially

0:54:03are legally vouching for the activities

0:54:05of this other account right i think

0:54:07apple would be entirely in the right

0:54:08then probably totally in there legally

0:54:09somewhere that says hey if you use all

0:54:12the same legal and contact information

0:54:14from multiple accounts you are legally

0:54:17responsible like you know that's you

0:54:20essentially absorb the liability for the

0:54:22other person is if you started a company

0:54:24and then you know your friend came in

0:54:27and wrote all the code but then you

0:54:28published it as the legal entity you're

0:54:30legally responsible your friends like

0:54:31all I didn't write all the code he did

0:54:33like doesn't matter that's not how the

0:54:34law works right for the most part of my

0:54:36wire that and so in this situation Apple

0:54:40probably could have just said these are

0:54:43the rules

0:54:44this is the data is irrefutable you

0:54:46don't argue it

0:54:47you know we all agree on the facts here

0:54:49and so therefore your account is closed

0:54:51but it's not what Apple did what Apple

0:54:54did instead is tried to communicate with

0:54:57this developer to work things out

0:54:59because there and that is the next

0:55:01question

0:55:01alright so the app works with developers

0:55:03I work things out

0:55:05does do all of us here in the peanut

0:55:06gallery and apple developer community do

0:55:09we immediately suspect that the only

0:55:11reason they were working out is because

0:55:12this person made a blog post that this

0:55:15happened beforehand so here's well

0:55:16here's what happened and this is I i

0:55:19think if i can look at this whole

0:55:20situation if I can point to 22 things

0:55:23that i would say we're like bad moves i

0:55:26think one it was apple bad move and one

0:55:29was the developers bad move the apples

0:55:31bad move was when they first started

0:55:33detecting all of this fraud on the other

0:55:35account they did consider the fraud

0:55:38account and the dash account to be

0:55:40logically link because they both were

0:55:42made by the same credit card and they

0:55:44both they both use some of the same test

0:55:45devices so they considered that enough

0:55:47of a correlation to consider them

0:55:49logically linked and and I think that

0:55:51that alone right there considering

0:55:53account an account logically link for

0:55:54the purpose of fraud detection based on

0:55:56the same credit card being used and the

0:55:57same device being used i think that's a

0:55:59reasonable assumption i think Apple was

0:56:01totally fine to do that the error that

0:56:03Apple made that i would say was probably

0:56:05the the one big big mistake that is

0:56:08apple's fault in the way this was

0:56:10handled is that when Apple detected the

0:56:13fraud on the other account they only

0:56:16contacted that account email address to

0:56:20talk about and try to fix the fraud

0:56:22issue and only they said when they were

0:56:24like issuing the warnings basically the

0:56:25only contacted the fraud one not the

0:56:28other one that was logically link to it

0:56:30but why do you think that's a mistake

0:56:31like you think it's a mistake because it

0:56:33seems like unfair or whatever but I

0:56:34think like from you know policy-wise i

0:56:38think it is a reasonable policy to have

0:56:39that you know the the like who was

0:56:44responsible for the actions of the

0:56:45account well the responsibility of

0:56:47accidents account ties back to whatever

0:56:49legal entity you know as we define it as

0:56:52the information you enter when you make

0:56:53your Apple ID right if that's their

0:56:55policy and then they see fraudulent

0:56:58activity and then they also policy that

0:57:00says that this fraudulent Act

0:57:01any uh all of the accounts that are tied

0:57:04to that same legal entity gets shut down

0:57:06i don't see anywhere where there's any

0:57:08specific need to carefully communicate

0:57:11with each one of them to give each one

0:57:12of the the connected legal entities a

0:57:14chance to explain or something that is a

0:57:16nice thing to do and we all think they

0:57:18should do it in this case but

0:57:19policy-wise like you know as many people

0:57:23pointed out if you get shut down my like

0:57:25people paypal or ebay or anything like

0:57:27that like no one's going to give you a

0:57:29nice phone call ask you to like explain

0:57:30yourself to them or whatever to make

0:57:32sure everyone gets a separate

0:57:33communication in case they're separate

0:57:34people and so like it's it's asking

0:57:37Apple to foresee the situation as

0:57:40described by the developer that actually

0:57:42was two different people and we were

0:57:43sharing credit card and I had no idea

0:57:44what was going on this count for years

0:57:45and so on and so forth are like I think

0:57:48it is a reasonable policy for a business

0:57:50to say this is just how the rules work

0:57:52if you don't like it you you developer

0:57:54have made a mistake by legally vouching

0:57:56for a someone again you have no idea

0:57:58what they're doing their they're

0:57:59committing fraud over years you have no

0:58:01idea about it that's your bad that's not

0:58:02our bed we can just shut them all down

0:58:03right now and i was getting back to what

0:58:06we thought about this when we heard

0:58:08about it is like why why is someone on

0:58:10the phone because we heard the phone

0:58:11call that you know that he put my why

0:58:13someone on the phone trying to work it

0:58:15out with this person is it because

0:58:16mostly because you know it like do we

0:58:19think it's because this is a popular

0:58:20developer and it's a developer was

0:58:23popular with other developers because

0:58:24they make a developer tool right

0:58:26is that why someone from apple is

0:58:28bending over backwards because you know

0:58:32what makes this one different verses if

0:58:34this had just been one of those you know

0:58:37fraud developers who got their account

0:58:39close to everything apple and all those

0:58:40cases for fraud is on the phone with

0:58:42each one of them saying oh let me hear

0:58:43what you say about all will try to get

0:58:45your account back I don't think that's

0:58:46happening and the reason we think that

0:58:48is part of the anger of like the old app

0:58:50review guidelines that were like never

0:58:52run to the press that doesn't help you

0:58:53know remember that old one that I think

0:58:54they removed and yeah it's gone

0:58:56the guidelines that was Steve Jobs style

0:58:58snarky we don't like it when you

0:59:00badmouth us in public type of thing

0:59:02that's where the root of all this is

0:59:04coming from the risk of like when we see

0:59:06this at least me specifically when i see

0:59:08this i think apple is bending over

0:59:11backwards a because they're trying to be

0:59:12nice

0:59:13would be a little bit because this

0:59:16person made a blog post and presented

0:59:18their side of the story and apple feels

0:59:20like this is you know they don't like

0:59:22looking bad they don't look like they

0:59:24don't want to be the bad guy but in

0:59:26cases where they do something like close

0:59:28an account and they just never hear

0:59:29anything about it nobody blogs Apple you

0:59:31know feel okay about like I guess we

0:59:33weren't the bag i feel like the removing

0:59:35of don't run to the press is removed

0:59:36partly because it recognizes that like

0:59:38that's the only way Apple has to tell

0:59:40whether something they've done might've

0:59:44been inadvertently meaner than they

0:59:46would want to be right

0:59:48the only way they can tell is if there's

0:59:49public outcry you know because they're

0:59:51not they don't know every single

0:59:52developer whatever like he can't ask the

0:59:54entire infrastructure an apple to know

0:59:57every single happen to know what

0:59:57every single happen to know what

1:00:00dashes and how popular it is and this is

1:00:01a good person I can't do that forever is

1:00:03too much right and so I think this

1:00:05signal the public outcry and complaining

1:00:08on Twitter and other developers looking

1:00:10at a scan something maybe something

1:00:12reader is actually an important feature

1:00:14of the system as it currently exists

1:00:16quote-unquote working and I'm glad that

1:00:18guideline was removed by saying don't

1:00:20want to the press because i think it's

1:00:21essential part of the process at this

1:00:22point

1:00:23yeah unfortunately it is but anyway so

1:00:26so bad back to what happened here

1:00:29I honestly don't spend a whole lot of

1:00:30time on this because i think it's not

1:00:31very productive so I i think we can

1:00:34summarize basically you know I think

1:00:36Apple I disagree with you on on like on

1:00:39them notifying multiple accounts and I

1:00:42think if they're going to shut down an

1:00:43account which is a severe action they

1:00:45should notify it beforehand and so that

1:00:48after determination and the first round

1:00:51blog post somebody from Apple called the

1:00:54developer and developer recorded this

1:00:56which in California is illegal

1:00:58the developers in Romania where it's

1:00:59legal the gist of it was that the the

1:01:03apple guy was trying very hard to work

1:01:05this out you can tell that they wanted

1:01:06to work this out you know Apple want to

1:01:08make sure that that the correct story in

1:01:11their opinion was told they suggested

1:01:14maybe he could write a blog post and

1:01:16they they basically wanted two key facts

1:01:20to be in the blog post these accounts

1:01:22are linked so Apple was not mistaken to

1:01:24suspend it there was fraudulent account

1:01:26and he was working with Apple to unlink

1:01:29the accounts and get back on the app

1:01:31store and they went over this back and

1:01:33forth a few times and it sounded like

1:01:34the developer was not very happy about

1:01:37the the freezing of this about the part

1:01:39that Apple didn't make a mistake and

1:01:41then he says he submitted this this

1:01:43draft post which later poster's website

1:01:44he said he submitted that to them you

1:01:47could tell on the call though that again

1:01:49they were he was there was definitely

1:01:50friction he definitely did not seem

1:01:52happy about what he what he was being

1:01:55asked to to agree to and then a few days

1:01:57later Apple tells the press this was

1:02:00indeed justified there was lots of fun

1:02:02this account we tried to work it out

1:02:04with the developer but couldn't reach a

1:02:05resolution and that's it

1:02:07and so I think if you can if you kind of

1:02:10try to like connect the dots between

1:02:12those two

1:02:13things it seems like he had apple

1:02:16couldn't agree on what almost what he

1:02:18was going to how he was going to prevent

1:02:20these these facts of the case or how is

1:02:22going to work things it seems like Apple

1:02:24most likely got whatever he submitted to

1:02:27them decided this was not going to be

1:02:30resolvable or was not basically decided

1:02:32negotiations were over and this was not

1:02:35going to work out and then the statement

1:02:36to the press is basically they're

1:02:37shutting the door you know we're only

1:02:39hearing part of a phone call

1:02:41we're not hearing was before or after

1:02:42this part of the call were not part of

1:02:45we don't know anything communication

1:02:46happens separately from this call so

1:02:48things could have been more tense and

1:02:50hostile than what's shown here and

1:02:53what's shown there is slightly tense and

1:02:55hospital from the developer so I don't

1:02:58know if Apple was in the right or wrong

1:03:00to close the door on this when they did

1:03:03but that certainly seems like that is

1:03:06what happened and based on the the two

1:03:09conflicting attitudes in the phone call

1:03:11I think that's very likely the case that

1:03:15that you know they just decided this was

1:03:16not going to resolved that you know they

1:03:18were they were not gonna reach agreement

1:03:19and and they were gonna eat because from

1:03:22a point of view they want to make sure

1:03:24that they control the narrative here

1:03:25it's very it was very clear from from

1:03:27that recorder call from the apple rep on

1:03:28that call like Apple wanted to make very

1:03:31sure that everyone knew that they didn't

1:03:32just like slip-up and suspend an

1:03:35innocent account that there was fraud

1:03:37that was linked to this account and so

1:03:40they wanted to make very clear that was

1:03:43the story that got out that the facts

1:03:45are very clear

1:03:46Apple did not just mess up because that

1:03:48would be really bad if they just messed

1:03:51up and suspended an account that had no

1:03:53connection any problems whatsoever and

1:03:54like because that is a very severe

1:03:56action and clearly running the app store

1:03:58in eight years and this is the first

1:03:59time we're hearing of a bad developer

1:04:01account suspension clearly they do a

1:04:03pretty good job and they're pretty

1:04:04careful most of time with when taking

1:04:06that action so they clearly wanted to

1:04:08make sure that fact was out there that

1:04:10that there was indeed real fraud

1:04:13it was indeed linked to this account and

1:04:15that basically that they were going to

1:04:17unlink the accounts and not this

1:04:19development forward so I think they were

1:04:22actually being very reasonable there and

1:04:24through whatever reason whether it was

1:04:27education or attitudes or whatever it

1:04:29was they couldn't work it out and and

1:04:31that sux and there was a good post today

1:04:33on their neighbors here I think I'm or

1:04:36that was basically like how do we move

1:04:38forward from here and the gist of it was

1:04:42basically like look we all know the

1:04:43facts now like let's just like Apple

1:04:46should just reactivate hit you know the

1:04:48good account just reactivate that

1:04:49account like that's how we move forward

1:04:50is like everyone basically suck it up

1:04:53talking about just reactivate the

1:04:54account because that's best for

1:04:55everybody because like the other side of

1:04:56this is like you know this is a great

1:04:58app at a store for this reason that

1:05:00probably shouldn't have happened

1:05:02you know it or at least like like this

1:05:04app in this account probably didn't

1:05:06deserve it assuming the developer tell

1:05:08the truth in this was some relative and

1:05:09not just like him with a different

1:05:11account you know

1:05:12and secondly this really sucks for the

1:05:14customers of this app because if you

1:05:15bought this app like i did in the mac

1:05:16app store you can even redownloaded like

1:05:19when the developer account suspended the

1:05:21app is gone it doesn't show up in your

1:05:23purchases tab it doesn't show up in

1:05:25searches it is gone you can't redownload

1:05:27it and that sucks if you bought it so it

1:05:31does kind of suck the way the way things

1:05:32are left now even though I can look back

1:05:35at at what Apple did and I think Apple

1:05:38was in the right based on just the

1:05:41little bit that we can that we can know

1:05:43and and the little bits and pieces that

1:05:45you can pick up i think Apple did pretty

1:05:47much the right thing the whole way

1:05:48through here with the exception of like

1:05:50not only not notifying all the accounts

1:05:52for termination but besides that I think

1:05:54apples in the right and they seem to

1:05:55handle it very well and they seem to put

1:05:57in way more effort i mean like the kind

1:06:00of was saying that Phil Schiller was

1:06:01personally involved in trying to get

1:06:03this sub like and I believe that like

1:06:04knowing the way these things work i

1:06:05believe that and select the fact that

1:06:08you could have some Lakes like phil

1:06:09schiller trying to get this fixed and

1:06:11apple dividing this way that they can

1:06:13resolve this get back in the store and

1:06:15presenting it to the developer that that

1:06:16sounded very reasonable

1:06:18it really did seem like Apple was going

1:06:20above and beyond try to fix this and

1:06:22they really didn't need to this like

1:06:24it's nice that they did and i hope that

1:06:26if I ever on the wrong end of this I

1:06:27hope that I hope that the same thing for

1:06:28me but it's really really above and

1:06:31beyond they didn't have to do this they

1:06:32didn't have to get this guy away back in

1:06:34they didn't have to call him and and

1:06:36offer the this kind of you know this

1:06:38kind of like olive branch there look

1:06:40if we if you can just agree these few

1:06:41statements then we can get back in the

1:06:43day they didn't do any of that and they

1:06:45did it all they really obviously wanted

1:06:47to solve this in a in a decent way and

1:06:50again through whatever reason they could

1:06:52not reach agreement with the developer

1:06:54on something that I think honestly the

1:06:58developer made a huge mistake and the

1:06:59way that he handled that I think he

1:07:01should have just said they wanted to say

1:07:02because it wasn't it wasn't bad or

1:07:05incorrect so from outside of this again

1:07:07looking like when we all heard the story

1:07:09what do we all think of what does that

1:07:10say about how we view apple now sort of

1:07:13at the conclusion of this I i think

1:07:16apple kind of got a positive results

1:07:22here like because in the beginning were

1:07:23all I go apples doing something bad in

1:07:26the app store again and we've seen that

1:07:27story so many times and were immediately

1:07:28suspicious right by the end of it

1:07:30especially for any developer who is

1:07:33paying enough attention to like read all

1:07:34the details that we just discussed and

1:07:35read the blog post by the end of it I

1:07:37think most legitimate developers come

1:07:40away thinking if this happens to me it

1:07:44seems like Apple will give me a

1:07:47legitimate chance because I first of all

1:07:49I think most developers understand uh I

1:07:53that the developer made a mistake here

1:07:56like not a mistake like that essentially

1:07:58by by by tying himself legally to the

1:08:01other account he is he is essentially

1:08:03responsible for right and I'm hoping

1:08:06that most developers would understand

1:08:07that like that if you use your credit

1:08:10card number and your test device maybe

1:08:11that's not obvious to anybody but after

1:08:13the story i guess it is so maybe before

1:08:14the story you could say no but now

1:08:15understanding like you know you see that

1:08:18they were tied to that and you despite

1:08:19that Apple made an effort to to try to

1:08:24make things right and i think that whole

1:08:27thing is comforting to developers should

1:08:29feel like you know developer the gym

1:08:31developers who would never do anything

1:08:32wrong like that they're like if i find

1:08:34myself in a situation where I have you

1:08:37know unintentionally got myself in

1:08:38Tangled away their idea either i didn't

1:08:40understand or trusted somebody that

1:08:42you've never trusted but you know this

1:08:43happens to everybody right

1:08:44will I just be sol or will i be able to

1:08:49will Apple be reasonable with

1:08:51and the only with the exception of the

1:08:53fact that it's not clear that apple

1:08:55would have been engaged at all if he

1:08:57hadn't court run to the press which

1:08:59really just means put a post on his own

1:09:01personal blog and have a popular app

1:09:02like with the exception of that well I

1:09:04still think it's a concern like hey what

1:09:05about my scrap nobody loves my up like

1:09:07they love dash my post on my blog no one

1:09:09will even notice

1:09:10maybe i would still be sol right but

1:09:13with the exception of that caveat I

1:09:14think apples actions are essentially

1:09:16reassuring legitimate developers that

1:09:19apple will try to be reasonable

1:09:22yeah Marco says like if if the gold this

1:09:26developer was to be able to continue his

1:09:29business his business of selling

1:09:31software as popular application he made

1:09:33bad choices you can imagine you can

1:09:36decide do you do you want to be right

1:09:37and be like righteous and be like I

1:09:39refuse to admit to even any kind of

1:09:42wrongdoing or being linked or you know

1:09:43apples beyond for or do you just want

1:09:45your account back because they weren't

1:09:46asking him to say anything that's not

1:09:48true they weren't asking him to take

1:09:49blame for anything he doesn't blame for

1:09:51they were a hundred percent believing a

1:09:53story taking it at face value sign okay

1:09:55great you gave an account somebody else

1:09:57or whatever we're going to get your

1:09:59account back all you all we want you to

1:10:01do is to make it clear like Marco said

1:10:02that the facts of the situation where

1:10:05would they were there was a reason for

1:10:07Apple to do what it did and that

1:10:09everyone involved like not to make it

1:10:11seem like album made a terrible mistake

1:10:12but we all work it out and then have

1:10:14apple come out of there isn't much I can

1:10:15think is totally reasonable and he just

1:10:17he made bad choices of his goal was to

1:10:19get this business back he he could have

1:10:21gotten it back doing things that are

1:10:23reasonable telling the truth

1:10:25they're allowing him to write whatever

1:10:27he wanted as long as he hit those two

1:10:28key points which everybody involved in

1:10:30the conversation agree on and he didn't

1:10:31do it did not do it because he was just

1:10:33too proud or stubborn or thought it was

1:10:36he would end up you know coming out of

1:10:38it looking bad or whatever

1:10:40who knows but like if his goal was to

1:10:41get this business back he blew it but i

1:10:43still think like outside of this that

1:10:46most development maybe you know Marco

1:10:47can answer is obviously the only you

1:10:49know one with a application on the app

1:10:51store of any significance

1:10:52that's specifically tied to him and has

1:10:54a lot of experience do you feel

1:10:55reassured by the outcome of this that

1:10:58apple would be reasonable if you found

1:11:01yourself and in this situation or is a

1:11:03neutral or do you feel worse that like

1:11:05it that you know that you didn't realize

1:11:06this could happen but now you think it

1:11:08could happen to you can be screwed

1:11:09I mean I think you nailed it like the

1:11:11reason Apple cared so much about this

1:11:14was because they know how bad it would

1:11:17be if it appear that they were like

1:11:20capriciously suspending developer

1:11:21account for no reason like that would be

1:11:23terrible for the reputation among

1:11:26developers that they knew how important

1:11:28it was to make sure that the official

1:11:30story here which was true was that Apple

1:11:32did not make a mistake in detecting this

1:11:35fraud and suspended this account like

1:11:36that was not a mistake on their part

1:11:38they did not mess up they did not they

1:11:40were not being capricious they actually

1:11:42detected real fraud and on a linked

1:11:44account that was really linkedin in a

1:11:46way that is substantial and so like they

1:11:48want that story to be true that like

1:11:50this was not just them being wrong and

1:11:53and again the way they handle is I i

1:11:55think we handled it very well better

1:11:57than they had to and so because of those

1:11:59two things

1:12:00yes I feel good about this like you know

1:12:03if you can say as a developer working on

1:12:06the app store there's always a certain

1:12:07kind of minimum level of App Store BS

1:12:10that everyone has to put up with most

1:12:11mostly around like the review the policy

1:12:13and everything else but it really in the

1:12:16grand scheme of things that BS tends to

1:12:19be most of the time consistent and and

1:12:22easy to work with in for most developers

1:12:25and and it's a known quantity it's not

1:12:28usually capricious or like dangerous

1:12:31about to kill your business at any

1:12:32moment unless you're doing things really

1:12:34close to the edge of the rules which you

1:12:36know most people aren't and don't need

1:12:38to for the most part the the Apple as a

1:12:42gatekeeper does pretty well as

1:12:44gatekeepers go the whole concept of a

1:12:46gatekeeper to begin with is problematic

1:12:49sorry Merlin it is you know that it is

1:12:51challenging to get that right and is

1:12:53always going to be dysfunction and

1:12:54problems by having any gatekeeper but if

1:12:57you're going to have a gatekeeper I

1:12:58think Apple does a pretty good job of it

1:13:00and possibly even a very good job of it

1:13:03and as a developer on these platforms I

1:13:07am reassured by this story that Apple

1:13:09really does care to get things right and

1:13:12to make sure that they're doing right

1:13:13for the community as much as they can so

1:13:15I consider this a positive thing as a

1:13:17developer i consider it a bit of a pain

1:13:19in the butt as a customer of dash but

1:13:22purple lights

1:13:23I consider it a positive thing as a

1:13:25developer but that's why you should

1:13:26never buy your your mac apps in the mac

1:13:28app store once again we like available

1:13:31outside the mac app store by it outside

1:13:33the mac app store you'll just be happier

1:13:34which which is a problem for apples like

1:13:36ironic that like this is exposing like

1:13:38you you know that like this is something

1:13:39they can fix Apple internal ago when we

1:13:41spend a developer account

1:13:42shouldn't we still allow the apps to

1:13:44download they can fix that internally

1:13:45that seems like something you know if

1:13:47they care about the mac app store all

1:13:48that they would fix but yeah it's kind

1:13:51of sad that it's there

1:13:52they're kind of highlighting the the

1:13:53problems with the mac app store by doing

1:13:56the right thing and detecting and fraud

1:13:58in canceling announced we were supposed

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1:16:37dropbox is making questionable choices

1:16:41in in recent times there was a thing a

1:16:45couple weeks back where dropbox was

1:16:48basically discovered to be hacking the

1:16:50mac accessibility APIs database

1:16:52this is actually i believe it's fixed in

1:16:54Sierra but basically Mac os10 has a

1:16:58certain separate security level for

1:17:01accessibility related apps and this

1:17:03allows apps to to see way more system

1:17:06events things like capture and keyboard

1:17:08input and stuff like that you basically

1:17:10if you are an accessibility app you can

1:17:11basically see and and intercept and

1:17:15track everything happening on the system

1:17:17things that are considered secure you

1:17:19can you can still do you have access to

1:17:21them whereas most apps would not be able

1:17:23to do things like log every keystroke

1:17:24and that's you know everytime dinners

1:17:26things like that right and so drop box

1:17:30in order to to achieve certain features

1:17:33or something

1:17:33dropbox was forcefully injecting itself

1:17:37into the list of of apps using a prompt

1:17:42the prompt you for your password that

1:17:43looked like the system password box and

1:17:46how it was the system password box

1:17:48that's why i put this thing is you know

1:17:49it was yeah okay so like that you this

1:17:53is this i have this to before Marco

1:17:55started crying about dropbox I had an

1:17:57item in the notice that actually still

1:17:58blow their about dropboxes accessibility

1:18:01quote-unquote hack because the first

1:18:03stories about this were like so this

1:18:05observed this is the observed behavior

1:18:06which everyone agrees with crappy

1:18:08observed behavior is dropbox it wants

1:18:12you to turn on accessibility but if you

1:18:14say no I people you know and take and

1:18:19take it out the next time it comes up

1:18:20we'll just try to put itself back like

1:18:22if you go to the system preferences and

1:18:23remove it right and then you just reboot

1:18:25like it'll be back again and so that is

1:18:27the user hostile behavior because the

1:18:29user disabled it and then unbeknownst to

1:18:31them maybe just launched it again and

1:18:33put itself back and so the question was

1:18:34among the people who first saw this

1:18:36behavior who were probably not

1:18:39programmers or particular technical was

1:18:41like it must be saving my admin password

1:18:44because i entered my men password to

1:18:46allow it to do this stuff with them i

1:18:47want to system preferences and turn it

1:18:49off the only way they could be possibly

1:18:51turning it back on automatically which

1:18:53is this user hostile behavior that they

1:18:54observed is that it must have saved my

1:18:57men password which would indeed be

1:18:59horrible but anybody who knows anything

1:19:01about you know Mac os10 or whatever the

1:19:05hell is called now and you still never

1:19:06knows like they would never save your

1:19:10password that is the stupidest possible

1:19:12way to get the thing they want because

1:19:14once you enter your admin password they

1:19:17don't need your name and password

1:19:18anymore right and so yeah so they don't

1:19:21save your name and password which would

1:19:22be an end and you can't totally discount

1:19:24because we all hear about these websites

1:19:25saving people's passwords in plain tex

1:19:27so never never overestimate the security

1:19:30intelligence of people writing code but

1:19:32dropbox is a big company and its really

1:19:34hard for me to believe they'd recently

1:19:35had done they don't honestly I would

1:19:37have believed that I i hit by the time i

1:19:39read the story it was already discovered

1:19:41they weren't actually saving the

1:19:42password but I would not rule out that

1:19:44they would try but whatever they

1:19:46wouldn't notice it's a matter of

1:19:47confidence because dropbox has a lot of

1:19:49money and they have smart developers

1:19:50right and the reason I think it's not a

1:19:52matter of competence it's a matter of

1:19:54respect

1:19:55no no it's not

1:19:56it's not it's a matter of confidence

1:19:57because to do the thing they want to do

1:19:59which we all agree is hostile they don't

1:20:01need your password more than once once

1:20:03they enter it like what they actually

1:20:05did

1:20:05there's makes that uid executable like

1:20:07everybody knows that anyone's done any

1:20:08units hacking like as soon as you've got

1:20:10root access the first thing you do is

1:20:11make set uid executables second uid

1:20:13shell so you can get back like it's just

1:20:15like you given them heard men password

1:20:18they're like not to Dokdo chance check

1:20:21the set uid bit on these seat Joe now I

1:20:23have reset uid route executables done

1:20:26and done they don't need your password

1:20:27anymore right

1:20:28and so that that is you know and that is

1:20:30that what they use and it doesn't like

1:20:32every time you give it happen in

1:20:34password you are essentially saying by

1:20:36giving you this admin password you now

1:20:38have free reign of the whole system not

1:20:40just momentarily but because once i give

1:20:41it to you you can immediately makes that

1:20:43uid executable as whatever and just like

1:20:46that you know it's alright the the

1:20:48system integrity protection protects

1:20:50against that because it's like Oh even

1:20:51with root access you can modify these

1:20:53files or whatever but anyway that

1:20:55there's that so that was his competence

1:20:58like the best way to do this user

1:21:00hostile behavior is not to store their

1:21:01passwords you like they're smart they're

1:21:03not going to do that and they're gonna

1:21:05do it the smarter way to do this user

1:21:07also be hit right

1:21:08the second aspect of the part that's a

1:21:09hack part is like once you have that

1:21:12access it still doesn't mean you have to

1:21:14go directly to the sequel like databases

1:21:16start mucking with it's like using

1:21:17private guys it's like Apple like you

1:21:19don't know what the structure our

1:21:20databases just because you look in there

1:21:21and see a bunch of tables and columns

1:21:22and think you know how to hack it

1:21:24that's not that's not a public API it's

1:21:26not guaranteed since the same reason I

1:21:28want to use in private api's you're not

1:21:30supposed to even be looking at stuff we

1:21:31reserve the right to change that anytime

1:21:32so that is the quote unquote hack part

1:21:35of it is that don't directly access our

1:21:37databases behind-the-scenes we provide

1:21:39api's you have to use those you can't

1:21:41just go sneakily find what the

1:21:43underlying storage isn't and directly

1:21:44mess with it so that is I don't know why

1:21:47they were doing it that way maybe it's

1:21:48the easiest way to secretly do it behind

1:21:50the scenes but it's terrible and they

1:21:52were signing themselves up for a

1:21:53maintenance headache because it's like

1:21:54once you use a private api like that

1:21:56whether you know it or not you're now on

1:21:57the hook to track every little change

1:21:59Apple does to their internals instead of

1:22:01just tracking their api discs because at

1:22:03any moment at any point release they

1:22:05could totally change the structure of

1:22:06that database and your Apple blow up and

1:22:08it's totally your fault because you

1:22:09screw things up so that I would say is

1:22:11the best example of them doing something

1:22:13that's not a good developer practice but

1:22:16the the initial story about them

1:22:19changing your password is totally a

1:22:20misunderstanding of of the the fact they

1:22:25just they don't need your password like

1:22:27they're they would never do that because

1:22:28dumpy they have everything they need and

1:22:30more right all right so anyway

1:22:33however they were doing it dropbox was

1:22:35really inappropriately hacking the TCC

1:22:39database the accessibility database to

1:22:41to inject themselves forcefully even if

1:22:44you remove them so that to me is like

1:22:46offense number one for you know this

1:22:49this is not good and this is there they

1:22:52are eroding trust that i have in them

1:22:54and the ability and the willingness I

1:22:56have to run their software on my

1:22:57computer and give them access to

1:22:59literally everything on my computer and

1:23:01then up

1:23:02hello before a firm that I their

1:23:04defensive this as LinkedIn i think

1:23:06probably have the hackers news link

1:23:07developer talks about their defense is

1:23:10actually plausible as a mean you still

1:23:13just you still say like this is not

1:23:14socially acceptable behavior especially

1:23:16among tech savvy users but I can see

1:23:19where company like Dropbox can get into

1:23:21a situation where it thinks this is the

1:23:23right thing to do and it's basically

1:23:24that when you install an application if

1:23:26they have these one-time prompts that

1:23:28you answer coral growth the wrong way

1:23:30like you didn't understand what the hell

1:23:31was you just hit cancel or whatever and

1:23:33now you don't have like some kind of

1:23:34find your integration that you expected

1:23:36from dropbox right it can be a

1:23:38legitimate support issue that enough

1:23:40people click the wrong box and at one

1:23:42time setup thing and they're like

1:23:44Dropbox doesn't work when i see my

1:23:46friends computer there is little Badgers

1:23:48of these little whatever like whatever

1:23:49features accessibility providing is not

1:23:51working dropbox is broken and i can

1:23:53imagine that being a popular support

1:23:55request and then they have to walk

1:23:57people through all I go to the thing go

1:23:59to accessibility click the lock icon and

1:24:01go like to basically re-enable it and

1:24:03then the the sort of cutting the Gordian

1:24:06knot solution becomes you know what

1:24:08users can't handle this is too

1:24:11complicated they don't understand what

1:24:12we mean by accessibility they don't want

1:24:13to type in their main password they're

1:24:15scared by why don't we just like if they

1:24:17ever enter their main password put a

1:24:19little insurance but this berry sunset

1:24:21uid route executables

1:24:22our bundle and soon as the admin

1:24:24password put them there and you know

1:24:26what it actually is definitely gets

1:24:27turned off by a point release or an OS

1:24:29update or whatever so we won't hear from

1:24:31people saying hey drop box is broken

1:24:33again why don't we just turn it on like

1:24:35it's paternalistic it's like they won't

1:24:37even know we do it we'll do it behind

1:24:39the scenes they won't see any you i will

1:24:41cut down on our support request that I

1:24:43think is the headspace that they get

1:24:44into it's not particularly nefarious

1:24:46they're just trying to solve a support

1:24:48problem but they eventually that they

1:24:50wrap themselves up in knots to where

1:24:52they think they're actually doing people

1:24:53a favor by doing this

1:24:55whereas we all realize you've gone too

1:24:58far in the hopes of like let's make it a

1:25:00smooth experience for most users at the

1:25:02expensive being sneaky and it's the

1:25:04wrong thing to do but i think it is not

1:25:07done because they are malicious or bad

1:25:09developers think it's actually because

1:25:11they're trying to make make the

1:25:14experience better for everybody like why

1:25:15don't we just solve this why are we

1:25:17bothering users with this crap why don't

1:25:18we just make drop people just like

1:25:19Dropbox to work like Dropbox we have a

1:25:21technology we can just make it work and

1:25:24that's I think where they went wrong in

1:25:25that that feature and the thing is like

1:25:27if you're going to you know basically

1:25:30it's the attitude that a lot of

1:25:32developers of and platform owners have

1:25:35of like we know better than our users so

1:25:38we're just going to do it for you

1:25:39we're gonna do things the way we think

1:25:41are right for you and you just have to

1:25:43go along for the ride because that's

1:25:45going to be best for you and you know it

1:25:48and there's there's a place for that and

1:25:49there's lots of places where that is the

1:25:50the most pragmatic or the correct

1:25:52solution or or position to take but as a

1:25:57user I want to make sure that whatever

1:25:59software i am granting that level of

1:26:02control too i want to make sure that I

1:26:05agree with their judgment in general and

1:26:08and their their technical abilities and

1:26:10their way of doing things and if i start

1:26:13doubting somebody's judgment or

1:26:16integrity or or skill then I don't want

1:26:20them making decisions for me and doing

1:26:22things behind my back and and and having

1:26:25access that I don't believe that they

1:26:27need and things like that that becomes a

1:26:29trust issue of insecurity issue and and

1:26:32lots of other potential problems so my

1:26:35problem with dropbox here

1:26:36or is that accessibility hack I think

1:26:39shows poor judgment and I think that is

1:26:42irresponsible the way they did that so

1:26:44did Apple which is why Apple made it

1:26:45impossible putting the accessibility

1:26:46stuff into system integrity protection

1:26:48in Sierra and apple is one such as you

1:26:52know Apple is one of these companies to

1:26:53or apple in many ways Apple apples

1:26:56implied position is basically we know

1:26:58best we're gonna do this for you and

1:27:00you're not gonna have control and and if

1:27:01you're an apple customer or user you

1:27:03have to basically decide like do i do I

1:27:08trust apple with this control and do i

1:27:10generally agree with their judgment or

1:27:13you know in order to have to give this

1:27:14control happily without problems right

1:27:16and a lot of people who don't like Apple

1:27:18product you don't use a product the

1:27:20reason they don't use apple products

1:27:21because they don't want to get that

1:27:22control they don't agree with a

1:27:23positions in those areas and they are

1:27:25they don't trust Apple to have that

1:27:26level of ability and that's fine right

1:27:29and my issue here with dropbox is that

1:27:31they make decisions like this they also

1:27:33like the it in their beta channel which

1:27:35is still in beta granted but in their

1:27:37beta channel they recently quote tested

1:27:40a toolbar that was like injected into

1:27:42Finder windows just make sure this giant

1:27:44like to wear which it looks like malware

1:27:47like was detected in the bottom of the

1:27:48window and it's like no that's that's

1:27:51not okay like that

1:27:52why who thought that was a good idea but

1:27:55that's just a bad feature being rolled

1:27:57as a baby and everyone you know the try

1:27:59it on ebay user all users go that's

1:28:01awful right but like the this physics of

1:28:03injecting that you will eventually get

1:28:04to this I think later but like the

1:28:06origin of dropbox is that it was

1:28:08basically accion the finder you do all

1:28:10the little badges in the icons like that

1:28:12is that is the product we all fell in

1:28:13love with his boys that one didn't like

1:28:15literally inject itself into the finder

1:28:17process to do this to look like the

1:28:19worst kind of hack the worst kind of

1:28:21totally unsupportable unsupported hack

1:28:23and I think a lot of the reason I mean

1:28:26that's the Apple came to to to start

1:28:29using and we liked it and we like the

1:28:31badges we like you know they gave you

1:28:32some reassurance raincheck Markets Inc

1:28:34little blue thing it's not like right

1:28:35that's that's dropbox they didn't have

1:28:37that feature it would have been a lesser

1:28:39product and because the people who did

1:28:43it were clever enough to get it done in

1:28:45a way that didn't some late cause the

1:28:47finder to be crashing left and right

1:28:49and we're able to chase Apple as they

1:28:51updated the finder and keep it working

1:28:53and so on so forth to the point where

1:28:55Apple eventually said dropbox is so

1:28:58popular and badging things is the thing

1:29:00that people actually want to do we're

1:29:01going to add an official AP office they

1:29:03finally did the taxis pass on the grass

1:29:05thing that been talking about all these

1:29:07years ago was like look at what people

1:29:08are using if you don't want them to use

1:29:11the disgusting hack to use this feature

1:29:13making officially supported API and I'm

1:29:15pretty sure I'm some i'm sure people

1:29:17will send an email from wrong it's been

1:29:18a pretty sure the dropbox did eventually

1:29:21adopt that official API rather than

1:29:23continuing the hackers that we drop

1:29:24boxes and when i do that hack they would

1:29:26love to have a support ABI presumably if

1:29:29the support API does everything the

1:29:30dropbox needed to do this of course they

1:29:33would adopt it and I think they have in

1:29:34the later versions that's not really the

1:29:37system working like but during all that

1:29:40time we were all like yeah badges and

1:29:42rock icons is great

1:29:44alright so it's not so much that they

1:29:45added a hack for this is that you could

1:29:47say the fact that someone thought this

1:29:49was a statically pleasing inappropriate

1:29:52you I issues for judgment which I'm I'm

1:29:55on board with you there right it looks

1:29:57like i'm thinking like those internet

1:29:58explorer toolbars you know that yeah I

1:30:01you just look like that shows poor

1:30:03judgment but the fact that it's not a

1:30:05the fact that is injected like well you

1:30:08know origin dropbox was founded on on

1:30:11ill-advised code injection which is

1:30:13probably not on the wall in their

1:30:14headquarters but might not

1:30:16yeah fair enough anyway so drop box in

1:30:18my opinion has shown poor judgment

1:30:21recently and and questionable technical

1:30:23decisions but also in it there's some

1:30:25performance issues like Dropbox appears

1:30:28to monitor all file system activity in

1:30:31some way like not just in their folder

1:30:33but in the whole system so i have some

1:30:35things to say about that as well

1:30:36okay we're going about this they've been

1:30:39doing that for freaking ever from the

1:30:41very beginning dbfs venti has been there

1:30:43slurping from the fs events fire hose

1:30:45and being Justin functions always been

1:30:47this is not a new thing like whether its

1:30:49ill-advised or not it's like maybe not

1:30:51from the very very beginning but for

1:30:53many many years and if you have to look

1:30:55at top and cdfs events the grinding up

1:30:58your things especially if you had a slow

1:30:59spinning disk and especially if you have

1:31:01a small number of

1:31:02where's that is not a new development

1:31:04now you can say a preponderance of

1:31:07things have been bothering me about

1:31:08dropbox and also i know i noticed that

1:31:11it's eating up my cpu cycles and they

1:31:13shouldn't be drinking from the fs events

1:31:15firehouse and they should be using the

1:31:16officially supported estimates API and

1:31:19doing the dips themselves and so on and

1:31:21so forth that is a legit complaint but

1:31:23its not New so I think for you

1:31:25personally you to think about while

1:31:27you're at your end of your rope about

1:31:28dropbox that could be a contributing

1:31:31factor but just because you may have

1:31:32become aware of it recently doesn't mean

1:31:34it's not something that has been a

1:31:35constant for many years

1:31:36that's fair totally fair but anyway so

1:31:39with these problems that are finding

1:31:42with dropbox I started thinking could i

1:31:46remove dropbox from my life could i

1:31:48switch to something else for the for the

1:31:50roles that I use dropbox for and and how

1:31:53difficult would that make my life in

1:31:55working with other people basically that

1:31:57and this is an interesting exercise I

1:32:00started realizing that like at a lot of

1:32:03of the way I work and the software i use

1:32:05is tied very closely to dropbox right

1:32:09now and and I don't even use it as much

1:32:11as a lot of people and like a lot of

1:32:13geeks are no don't they put like all

1:32:15their photos and dropbox all they're

1:32:17like text everything like it like I

1:32:19actually use dropbox pretty lightly

1:32:21compared to many people i know but even

1:32:24then like something like how do i how

1:32:26would I move off of dropbox of things

1:32:28finally pushed me over the edge I

1:32:30decided because i'm not there like I'm

1:32:32not saying right now i'm leaving dropbox

1:32:34period

1:32:34i I don't know that I don't know what

1:32:36I'm going to be doing that yet but I

1:32:38start thinking like what what is dropbox

1:32:40continues going down a path i disagree

1:32:42with and and I decide that I want to

1:32:44leave like what does that look like hell

1:32:46wouldn't you what do I go to first of

1:32:48all right well before before you explain

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1:34:54so I've been trying to figure out if

1:34:57there's any alternatives to dropbox I

1:34:59could switch to and then and how that

1:35:00would look how that would work what you

1:35:03know what I would have to move or change

1:35:04about my work flows are set up to to

1:35:06really achieve that and like I I you so

1:35:08much for dropping that like I have my my

1:35:10one password sync is there i have a

1:35:12couple of like text a person to it my

1:35:14entire blog engine is based on dropbox

1:35:16sinking and editable text files are in

1:35:18dropbox folder and the way edit my blog

1:35:21on my phone is by using dropboxing text

1:35:23editors so it it would be non-trivial to

1:35:27switch off at once mentioned one of the

1:35:29biggest thing about dropbox shared

1:35:30folders like you know we the three of us

1:35:33on the show we have a shared folder like

1:35:35that's how John in case you get their

1:35:36audio files to me after each show that's

1:35:39how we that's where we put like any kind

1:35:40of shared files things like artwork and

1:35:42sound effects and there's so many like

1:35:44so many people like when you're working

1:35:46with small group of people especially if

1:35:48they're nerds like us you will almost

1:35:50always have like Dropbox shared folders

1:35:52or Dropbox share links involved in that

1:35:54in that work group in some way so it

1:35:57really is not trivial to switch away and

1:36:00there aren't a whole lot of solutions on

1:36:03how to switch away like assuming you

1:36:04want the same kind of thing there's I

1:36:07don't like five or six different things

1:36:09you could do that there's not a ton the

1:36:11ones i got the most recommendations for

1:36:13our uh what used to be called BitTorrent

1:36:17sync and is now called resilient and

1:36:20then there's also see file and SE a file

1:36:23there's not a lot about it out there but

1:36:26people who use it tend to love it

1:36:28apparently like I is it is not a lot

1:36:31like that the not a lot know in the way

1:36:33of like apps for like iOS and stuff or

1:36:35anything like that but people seem to

1:36:37love see file so i might try that as

1:36:41well I didn't really get a noticeable

1:36:43amount of recommendations for any other

1:36:45solution i'm curious have you guys ever

1:36:49tried any of these other things that can

1:36:50that can do dropbox like functions

1:36:52no but what about the synology cloud

1:36:55station whatever they call it

1:36:56oh yeah I i do want to try that as well

1:36:59I'm a little guy I worry about like you

1:37:02know because it is probably a fairly

1:37:03small audience thing I worry again with

1:37:06that I worry about things like

1:37:08app support that's why if you're going

1:37:09to try one if it in a world without

1:37:12without like mobile devices are just

1:37:14thinking between two computers i would

1:37:15probably try see file because that seems

1:37:17like it is that it is the best regarded

1:37:19in that way but because we're in this

1:37:21world of like mobile and you need things

1:37:22like apps and stuff I think BitTorrent

1:37:24sync extremely resilient is probably the

1:37:26one to use that seems like the most

1:37:28popular alternative that is roughly what

1:37:30I'm looking for I go with the bigger

1:37:32names like I've used like box fault for

1:37:35ya voluntarily a multi-use box it work

1:37:38did not like but it is very dropbox like

1:37:40just imagine dropbox but worse

1:37:42that's great that's what I'm looking for

1:37:44yeah Google Drive obviously widely

1:37:49supported is available on mobile it

1:37:51works more or less like Dropbox i do use

1:37:53that voluntarily both at work and at

1:37:56home and if I feel like if i if i was

1:37:59going off dropbox for whatever reason

1:38:01that's probably where I would go because

1:38:03it is very widely supported i already

1:38:05know i'm in to the Google ecosystem

1:38:07pretty well yeah so but i haven't had

1:38:12any problems with it i can't save

1:38:14exercise as much as Dropbox basically I

1:38:15don't run google drive unless i needed i

1:38:17launched it i use the web UI line and if

1:38:20i wanted to be on my mac i launched it

1:38:22do whatever I need to do and then quit

1:38:24so obviously i'm not giving the same

1:38:25workout the dropbox does but that seems

1:38:28to me the most obvious well-supported

1:38:30reasonable alternative i have no idea

1:38:32how it behaves in terms of nice into

1:38:35your system

1:38:35I know lots of Google stuff annoys me by

1:38:38when you give it your root password at

1:38:41some of your admin password at some

1:38:42point and it gets admin privileges it

1:38:45installs all sorts of little Watchers to

1:38:47make sure that all the google apps are

1:38:48kept up to date which is kind of nice

1:38:50but also kind of creepy when like this

1:38:52dialog pops up asking it updated google

1:38:54app that you haven't launched in like a

1:38:55year and a half and you're like what is

1:38:57that has been that been running on my

1:38:58system trying to make sure google earth

1:39:00is up-to-date that I haven't launched in

1:39:01forever like go away whatever their

1:39:03Keystone process like I don't like that

1:39:05but you know maybe that's what's keeping

1:39:09me away from those in and on dropbox

1:39:11what I feel like Dropbox is more

1:39:12understandable I kind of know what it's

1:39:14doing

1:39:15and you know the it in finer detail but

1:39:17anyway that seems like the most obvious

1:39:19alternatives you might want to give that

1:39:21a try depends on what your main

1:39:22objection to drop boxes is it like ugly

1:39:24why is it installing weird crap in your

1:39:26system is it performance like but i

1:39:30would say that you know that doesn't

1:39:32help you with the social aspects of the

1:39:33sort of network effect of like hey we're

1:39:35all using dropbox and you're over there

1:39:36and google drive but google drive is

1:39:38pretty well supported on all mobile

1:39:40platforms has a really nice web UI and

1:39:42and does the job I mean and there is

1:39:45there is one little saving grace with

1:39:46with dropbox like with with having to

1:39:48use dropbox if you don't want it

1:39:50software running is that they do have a

1:39:51pretty robust web interface so you

1:39:53couldn't you can if you if you're forced

1:39:56to work with dropbox people and you

1:39:57don't want to wonder about yourself you

1:39:58can actually get a lot of it done with

1:39:59that web interface not all of it but you

1:40:01can you can do a lot there i think also

1:40:03with with with both Google Drive and

1:40:06Dropbox which as compared to iCloud

1:40:08Drive which is apparently not in the

1:40:10running here

1:40:10yeah i was gonna mention and yeah that

1:40:13the glorious thing about this is that no

1:40:15matter what we think about dropbox and

1:40:16google drive this maybe not true but i

1:40:20think we also have the feeling that if I

1:40:22quit dropbox it's out of the picture

1:40:25until I relaunch it right but you can

1:40:27quit is a third-party application you

1:40:29can put it on your mac and then like so

1:40:31if you were to quit you feel like all

1:40:33right well dropbox is not in the picture

1:40:34anymore right

1:40:35whatever evil it was doing before

1:40:37whatever annoyance I was having and for

1:40:41the most part both of them respect the

1:40:43thing of like launch one dialogue and

1:40:44yes no they don't automatically turn

1:40:46that one back on and so you can turn off

1:40:48dropbox and have some confidence that

1:40:51it's not messing you anymore as opposed

1:40:54to iCloud Drive which is always the

1:40:56suspicion that you know some part of the

1:40:58system is doing stuff behind the scenes

1:41:00and you can't just quit if you wanted

1:41:01out of the picture like but you haven't

1:41:03brought this up forever like the idea of

1:41:04a expanding xcode with its thousands and

1:41:06thousands of files and you don't want my

1:41:08BBFS NT grinding up on your record from

1:41:12dropbox observing every single facet

1:41:13event you can quit dropbox and then

1:41:16you'll like that won't happen anymore if

1:41:17I could drive was doing the same thing

1:41:19which hopefully it isn't you don't have

1:41:22that option except for maybe uncheck the

1:41:24checkbox and it's saying you sure you

1:41:25want to remove all these you know having

1:41:27all your documents onto desktop

1:41:28disappear or some other weird thing when

1:41:30you could drop box and you can quit and

1:41:32being nothing happens to your Dropbox

1:41:33folder like it stays however it was when

1:41:35you quit which is I think reassuring

1:41:38yeah I mean I cloud drive is a few

1:41:40people also recommended that and it

1:41:42seems like while most people have issues

1:41:45with other iCloud things the especially

1:41:48things like the Sierra you know document

1:41:49and stop saying stuff it seems like

1:41:51iCloud drive is pretty good for most

1:41:54people that most of the reports that we

1:41:56got from it

1:41:57we're very positive and a lot of people

1:41:58said that they stopped using dropbox and

1:42:01just use iCloud Drive now so I i might

1:42:03consider that iCloud Drive still kind of

1:42:05bothers me though in the way that it's

1:42:07not just a folder like it looks like a

1:42:09folder and find her but isn't it kind of

1:42:11knot isn't kind of weirdly all over the

1:42:12place it's like library mobile document

1:42:14so i would just caution again are fine

1:42:16but just don't use it with pages or any

1:42:18of our complications because apparently

1:42:19makes it so you can opener saving your

1:42:21files right

1:42:22yes that's been kind of like what what

1:42:25is great about dropbox is that it the

1:42:28weights and what it is is so

1:42:29conceptually simple it's like this II

1:42:31there's a special folder on your hard

1:42:33drive you can see where it is the

1:42:35regular folder full of regular files but

1:42:37there's this thing in the background

1:42:38that runs that keeps it in sync with

1:42:39that same folder on your other computers

1:42:41like that is great and and I I compared

1:42:44the past one of them they like about

1:42:46that is that it kind of has the failure

1:42:48mode of a train when the failure mode of

1:42:50an airplane was like like if an airplane

1:42:52fails it crashes and you die if a train

1:42:56fails it's just not moving everything is

1:42:58still there you just kind of stopped

1:42:59moving and like that's kind of how I

1:43:02feel with drop like the way dropbox like

1:43:04Dropbox service has any kind of issue

1:43:07which it does it is not perfect i've

1:43:09seen issues many times as somebody who's

1:43:11a blog engine based on dropbox you know

1:43:14if dropbox fails all my files are just

1:43:17still sitting there on my drive if

1:43:18dropbox has some kind of catastrophic

1:43:20error and like wipes out all my files it

1:43:23like i'm gonna choose sync problem and

1:43:25delete all my files those files in the

1:43:28directory has got a time machine or my

1:43:29backups and I can just get the file off

1:43:31the backups so like it the the ways in

1:43:35which you can fail our are pretty like

1:43:38low-key safe things that i can easily

1:43:41recover from as a responsible computer

1:43:43user who has backups whereas with a lot

1:43:45of solutions there like a little too

1:43:48smart a little too abstracted I don't

1:43:50have that kind of luxury some of them do

1:43:51work that way but many of them don't

1:43:53and so that's why that's why i was

1:43:55thinking like BitTorrent sync again

1:43:56knowing very little about it because it

1:43:58seems like that was probably going to be

1:44:00more like what I wanted but in reality

1:44:02I'm probably just gonna stick with

1:44:04dropbox for a while but kinda taking a

1:44:07few steps out the door like keeping one

1:44:09foot out the door hit in a way looks

1:44:11because however prefer do most things

1:44:12with like service and I commit myself to

1:44:14so you know I i'm going to at some point

1:44:17start moving things off the dropbox like

1:44:20i'm gonna move one password sync out of

1:44:21that i'm going to stop adding anything

1:44:24new to dropbox that would never do

1:44:26require its integration start you know

1:44:29sending around links to people because

1:44:31download files instead of you know

1:44:33having dropbox shared folders

1:44:34necessarily you know don't invest into

1:44:36into photos there things like that like

1:44:38just kind of like kinda putting dropbox

1:44:41at a bit of a distance and starting to

1:44:43move out of it slowly because i think i

1:44:46think they're in there showing enough

1:44:48bad judgment over time here that I think

1:44:50the time will come that I will want to

1:44:52move off of it and i kinda wanna be

1:44:54ready for that and that's easier said

1:44:55than done and I definitely take issue

1:44:58with some of the shady things that have

1:45:01been going on but I do think that it's

1:45:06especially if you take the hacker news

1:45:08comments as actually coming from an

1:45:10engineer and an engineer that is to some

1:45:12degree obviously unofficially speaking

1:45:15for the company

1:45:15it doesn't seem like any of this was

1:45:17really malicious it was just either

1:45:19ill-advised or or perhaps you know they

1:45:23weren't as smart as we hope they were or

1:45:25whatever the case may be but I don't

1:45:27know I feel like Dropbox is fairly

1:45:30essential to me getting my my life done

1:45:34i was going to say work because my life

1:45:36so it would take quite a lot for me to

1:45:39want to walk away from it and i am not

1:45:41at that point yet and I think I'm

1:45:43further away from that point and you are

1:45:45and that's not a bad thing that's that's

1:45:46not a good thing is just the thing but

1:45:48it's certainly worth keeping an eye on

1:45:50and certainly you know we were talking

1:45:52earlier about you know what is everyones

1:45:53person

1:45:54option of Apple after this whole

1:45:55kerfuffle with dash and what is

1:45:58everyone's perception of dropbox after

1:45:59this came at came to light and I feel

1:46:03like Dropbox which used to be kind of

1:46:06like panic level can do no wrong in my

1:46:10mind anyway can do no wrong generally

1:46:13speaking is really good code that seems

1:46:14to always work etc it it doesn't seem

1:46:19quite so cut-and-dry to me anymore and

1:46:21that's too bad but you know even the

1:46:23mighty can fall

1:46:24alright thanks a lot two or three

1:46:26sponsor this week betterment kingdom and

1:46:28indochino we will see you next week

1:46:32now the show is over they didn't even

1:46:36mean to begin as it was accidental

1:46:39accidental Johnson

1:46:45research Marco in kc wouldn't let down

1:46:48because it was accidental was accidental

1:46:53and you can find the show know today p

1:46:57dot and if your twitter follow them

1:47:04yes byl ISS so that's Casey list and a

1:47:10co-pay rm20 Marco Arment are see that

1:47:18Syracuse

1:47:26what

1:47:31what are you doing the post-show you

1:47:34want to talk about your camera's yeah we

1:47:36got more marker waffling there should be

1:47:38a new we should put the capital W on

1:47:41that Marco waffling here we come

1:47:43waffling yeah the category things where

1:47:46Margo decides on a direction for his

1:47:51life like an example would be I like BMW

1:47:54cars and then that the this determined

1:47:56after that is I like electric cars right

1:47:58then we assume there will be some point

1:47:59in the future perhaps distant future of

1:48:01Marco starts walking electric cars so

1:48:03this one is that that's how we define

1:48:06this this category of thing I don't want

1:48:09Marco often doesn't have a good ring to

1:48:10it we got it we got a workshop that name

1:48:12gonna come anyway the current round of

1:48:15Marco waffling which by the way it

1:48:16sounds like it's a bad name but just

1:48:17joking really what it is is Marco being

1:48:21willing to revisit decisions he's made

1:48:23in the past when the conditions change

1:48:24they're going which is an admirable

1:48:26thing but it's much more fun to make fun

1:48:27of him about it and use the word waffle

1:48:29because it's funny

1:48:30so anyway the current one is his cameras

1:48:33you know for years I used SL ours they

1:48:37gradually fell out of out of favor as I

1:48:40just didn't want to carry them anywhere

1:48:41and then I i got this little tiny sony

1:48:44rx1 because it could basically see in

1:48:47the dark the center was so good and I

1:48:49had an amazing little prime lens on it

1:48:51the limitations of that camera with both

1:48:54you know things like autofocus speed

1:48:55this is the old argument is that there's

1:48:57a new ones better but there's the first

1:48:58one auto focus speed sucked the battery

1:49:01life sucked and I want a little more

1:49:03versatility in the land selection and

1:49:06just you know just a little bit better

1:49:07performance and it wasn't small enough

1:49:10that i was actually carrying in many

1:49:12places because it was still a camera

1:49:14that couldn't fit in my pocket so about

1:49:17a year ago I i switch to the the new

1:49:20sony a7r too because it's so it's this

1:49:23is my first mirrorless like but it's

1:49:26still interchangeable lens camera it's

1:49:28an amazing camera in many many ways the

1:49:31a7r to is if in many ways the best

1:49:34camera in the world right now however it

1:49:37is not perfect and it's not perverted in

1:49:40some fairly large ways and over the last

1:49:43year

1:49:44I have thought I can get by this and I

1:49:47can get used to this and i'll get out

1:49:49faster so the main reasons the sony a7r

1:49:52to is not perfect

1:49:54our number one and this is a huge one

1:49:57which I'll describe why later battery

1:49:59life and ever since the beginning I mean

1:50:01I made fun of the fact that the camera

1:50:02is the battery life is so bad that it

1:50:05ships with two batteries in the box is

1:50:07the first time i ever bought any

1:50:09electronic device that includes two of

1:50:12its own battery because everyone who

1:50:15uses it will need more than one I wish

1:50:17mine came with two batteries like 50

1:50:19bucks for a little turkey battery I know

1:50:20and I've lost two of them so anyway so

1:50:25it the battery life is terrible

1:50:28you know you're lucky to get through a

1:50:30day using it and and you can you can

1:50:32only do you can only get through a whole

1:50:34day if you are very very careful and you

1:50:38kind of baby the battery the second

1:50:40problem with it is that it is it is

1:50:42pretty slow turn it on you know it takes

1:50:45a few seconds to kind of boot up and get

1:50:47it self-oriented shot to shot time if

1:50:50you want to review the pictures that

1:50:52you're taking with it it is very very

1:50:54slow takes a few seconds after it has

1:50:56shot before you can really review them

1:50:57if you if you want to review a picture

1:51:00and zoom in to check to make sure like

1:51:02you that you that you focused correctly

1:51:04or the right thing wasn't focusing you

1:51:05want to like zoom in and check that

1:51:07takes a long time like a few seconds

1:51:09delay riding the pictures to the card

1:51:12takes a long time which is partly

1:51:14because they're so large but also

1:51:16probably because you think the image

1:51:17processor just slow just to provide some

1:51:19context here by the way over you i'm

1:51:20sure you'll get to the context

1:51:21eventually but my sony which I'm sure is

1:51:25well not sure actually is it is actually

1:51:27slower and all those things you describe

1:51:28yours because mine is actually newer

1:51:29yours is yours is almost a year newer

1:51:32and also shoots much smaller photos so

1:51:34it's you I bet yours is probably faster

1:51:36well i was going to say I totally

1:51:38believe that this is slower than the

1:51:40thing you're actually comparing it to

1:51:41which we'll get to in a moment but it's

1:51:42the best camera of everyone so they

1:51:44could the world when you go from the

1:51:46world of like three digit price cameras

1:51:48to the world four-digit price cameras i

1:51:50was amazed at how fast this thing turns

1:51:52on how fast it boots up how fast does

1:51:54everything

1:51:55so everything's relative but anyway

1:51:57contain the results of this camera it

1:51:59has the most amazing sensor I've ever

1:52:02seen I think it might even be one of the

1:52:04best testing for intentions in the world

1:52:06bye-bye like testing metrics like pho

1:52:08market everything it is an incredibly

1:52:10awesome sensor I can basically see in

1:52:12the dark with very little noise dynamic

1:52:14range is ridiculous

1:52:15it has an incredibly advanced auto focus

1:52:18system the main problem is just that

1:52:20it's so slow and that the battery life

1:52:23is so bad and the battery life manifest

1:52:25itself in interesting ways that I

1:52:27thought I hadn't necessarily foreseen

1:52:28foresaw when when i when i bought it in

1:52:31first and even when i bought a new

1:52:33battery life was gonna be great but but

1:52:36there are certain ways this is a problem

1:52:38so for instance it has Wi-Fi but I've

1:52:41never used it because energy in order

1:52:43for it to be convenient to use you have

1:52:45to leave the Wi-Fi enabled in some way

1:52:47and then you'll eventually launch

1:52:48everything and to get reasonable better

1:52:51if I this camera you have to do things

1:52:52like keep it in airplane mode so i just

1:52:54never use the flat because it's just

1:52:58like I have I have a call these settings

1:52:59like maximize the power consumption also

1:53:01like as you're shooting throughout the

1:53:03day because mirrorless if the camera is

1:53:06on if it's ready to go

1:53:08one of the two screens is always on

1:53:10either the ones in the electronic

1:53:11viewfinder or the one in the back screen

1:53:14is always on if the camera is ready to

1:53:16shoot

1:53:16unlike SLR is really at slrs if you have

1:53:19the back screen on this one thing but in

1:53:21normal with us are you shooting through

1:53:22the optical viewfinder there's no screen

1:53:25on in that process there might be the

1:53:26metering sensor might be active

1:53:28depending on the moats and whether it's

1:53:29certain things you're sleeping but

1:53:30basically there's no screens around so a

1:53:33DSLR that is just ready to shoot but not

1:53:35actually shooting a picture uses very

1:53:37little power and it's one of the reasons

1:53:38why dslrs get so much better battery

1:53:41life then these large full frame but

1:53:43still mirrorless cameras that have lots

1:53:45of processing demands but very small

1:53:46batteries so for the sony in order to

1:53:49save battery life i often need to flip

1:53:52it off when im using it just it just you

1:53:54know if I'm not gonna be shooting for

1:53:56the next couple of minutes I'll just

1:53:58flip it off because if you don't look as

1:54:00you like move around and the camera like

1:54:02you know bounces off your chest off your

1:54:04sides are walking around like it'll will

1:54:07detect it will think your eyes

1:54:08against a soldier on the eps screen or

1:54:10then it will think you're not against

1:54:11this will turn the back screen so it's

1:54:13basically there's always a screen being

1:54:16on and the sensor being you know

1:54:18capturing the data and showing it to the

1:54:20screen so the power draw these things is

1:54:22incredibly high in just like walking

1:54:24around mixed shooting use and so you

1:54:27basically have to keep them switched off

1:54:28when you're not shooting to save the

1:54:30battery so that means that every time

1:54:32you want to take a shot if it was off

1:54:34you got to turn it on you get away from

1:54:35the boot up again so that's like a few

1:54:37seconds lost their and and because of

1:54:39that i have often missed shots because

1:54:42like as my kids getting older

1:54:44he's getting faster at this is the thing

1:54:47that happens i guess i'm learning this

1:54:49but that's the most dangerous game

1:54:51covers exactly exactly so basically it

1:54:56is causing me to miss a lot of shots and

1:54:58it's causing me to not use certain

1:55:00features very well and if these aren't

1:55:01the only examples but basically like

1:55:03ensure it i'm not able to use the camera

1:55:06its full potential because i need to

1:55:08baby the battery so much it is a lot

1:55:11more inconvenient than i expected to

1:55:13have a battery life that this bad

1:55:15compared to slrs which i use for you

1:55:17beforehand you know SLR like you can

1:55:19leave it on all day and it won't be a

1:55:22problem at all like it'll be in like a

1:55:23certain low-power mode and if you like

1:55:26if you lift it up and have press the

1:55:27shutter button its it is on like a

1:55:29half-second ready to go

1:55:30like it's so fast for SLR to to exit the

1:55:33on but idle state bandits right there

1:55:36like it's so fast so and you can and

1:55:38when it's when it's in that on I'll say

1:55:40to use so little power you can literally

1:55:41leave it there for like all day or even

1:55:43days and yet the battery won't die it's

1:55:45incredible like how big is our batteries

1:55:47hard how long they last relative to

1:55:49America's camera like those so maybe a

1:55:53month after i got the so-named I I'd

1:55:55picked up our old 5d Mark still uses the

1:55:575d mark two most of the time so about a

1:55:59month after the sony i was already

1:56:00getting used to and I picked up the 5d

1:56:02mark two I thought this is the largest

1:56:04heaviest dinosaur I've ever felt this is

1:56:06crazy i'm so glad i moved to Maryland

1:56:09etc now a year and a couple of months in

1:56:12now that i am more custom to the

1:56:15limitations and annoyingness of this

1:56:18particular mirrorless camera and of into

1:56:20some degree of merrells cameras in

1:56:21general

1:56:21all this past weekend i picked up tips

1:56:24camera to take a few shots she had my

1:56:26favorite lens mounted on the the 1 35

1:56:28millimeter cannon f2 we want a quick

1:56:31shot outside i picked up this camera and

1:56:33took a few shots with the 135 of my kid

1:56:37being cute and a pumpkin patch

1:56:39I just flew on it it was like night and

1:56:42day and I thought having been out of

1:56:45practice with with that camera control

1:56:47scheme for a year and it being an

1:56:50eight-year-old camera compared to my

1:56:52like awesome high-end new sony I thought

1:56:54this would be slower i wouldn't be able

1:56:56to get things in focus because the focus

1:56:59system is so primitive in the old 5d

1:57:01mark two compared to what we have today

1:57:03and I i thought the picture looked as

1:57:05good as there's so much lower resolution

1:57:06sensor is so old and crappy and the

1:57:08reality is not only did I fly on the

1:57:11controls but I nailed tons of shots very

1:57:14quickly because it like just shooting

1:57:16with an SLR especially a good SLR like

1:57:18the 5d series is so much faster than a

1:57:22full-frame mirrorless and I know there

1:57:24are smaller non full-frame mirrorless

1:57:26cameras there's lots that are in the

1:57:28aps-c sensor size range of the micro

1:57:30four-thirds size range and because these

1:57:32these process smaller sensors with a lot

1:57:35fewer pixels they often are a lot faster

1:57:37and it is also possible i know to make a

1:57:40full frame camera that is very very fast

1:57:42because at XOXO i was able to to briefly

1:57:45use a friends like a is that the q1 to

1:57:49fix 28 millimeter lens whatever it was

1:57:51it was one of the one of the like are

1:57:54like five-thousand-dollar mirrorless

1:57:56things and it was amazing how incredibly

1:57:58fast and responsibility that's what i

1:58:00noticed immediately about that camera

1:58:01and honest I don't love the idea of a

1:58:03fixed 20 millimeter lens being the only

1:58:04ones in a camera even know that

1:58:06typically with the iphone is that but

1:58:08anyway so because it's like a queue is

1:58:12not probably for me but Wow was it nice

1:58:15to you fast camera again so i use that

1:58:17XOXO about a month ago over this weekend

1:58:19i use tips XLR tips SLR excellent after

1:58:23the audio will too much i basically

1:58:25realize that oh my god i really love a

1:58:28fast pro handling camera like as i was

1:58:31talking a couple of weeks ago about the

1:58:34difference between like four

1:58:35no hardware and non-pro hardware want

1:58:37one of those described about pro stuff

1:58:39and in the comfort of cameras like pro

1:58:41stuff is not only like durable and had

1:58:45made to tolerate extreme conditions

1:58:47better and usually has better service

1:58:49but also pro stuff just handles faster

1:58:52and it has more control and it doesn't

1:58:54always necessarily have to be the

1:58:56smallest it doesn't always necessarily

1:58:57have to be technically the best buy

1:58:59certain measures but it has to be like

1:59:01reliable and fast and hat and have easy

1:59:05simple controls you can like use without

1:59:07looking at stuff like that that's what

1:59:08progear is and i just realized that I

1:59:10just love pro cameras and at the sony in

1:59:14in some ways isn't a pro camera in the

1:59:17ways that i am considering here

1:59:19not always of course and certainly

1:59:21technically it is shockingly good like

1:59:24in in the picture quality that you get

1:59:26out of it and the optical quality that

1:59:27you get from the amazing sony fe lenses

1:59:30is also fantastic but i think i might

1:59:33switch back to slrs because here's what

1:59:36happened in the meantime cannon released

1:59:37the 5d Mark four and the 5d Mark so that

1:59:40the main problems I have with canon

1:59:42before that one of the one of the

1:59:43reasons of them what they wanted to jump

1:59:44to sewing to be in the in the first

1:59:46place

1:59:46cannon was falling way behind on their

1:59:49sensor technology their sensors were

1:59:51really not competitive with the amount

1:59:54of noise at high iso levels in low light

1:59:57and they were really not competitive in

1:59:58dynamic range

1:59:58dynamic range

2:00:00and like things like the amount of

2:00:01detail that you can recover in shadows

2:00:03of a picture

2:00:04basically what happened with the 5d mark

2:00:06for they didn't become class-leading in

2:00:09those areas but they got very close

2:00:12sony and and therefore nikon cameras are

2:00:15also used sony sensors they are still

2:00:17ahead in high iso noise levels and

2:00:20dynamic range and resolution in some

2:00:22levels but the the new canon 5d mark for

2:00:26came very close to these levels and in

2:00:30my opinion in most in most ways probably

2:00:32close enough it also has a fast

2:00:34autofocus system it hasn't same battery

2:00:36life it has pro controls pro durability

2:00:38it is giant heavy but i want one so tips

2:00:42getting one

2:00:43it arrived about a half hour before the

2:00:45show started I i haven't had a chance to

2:00:47unbox it yet and try yet

2:00:48ask me again next week but basically tip

2:00:52is getting one and i'm going to play

2:00:53with it and if i end up liking it I

2:00:57might get one as well and then sells

2:00:59only here but we will see i did not see

2:01:03this coming

2:01:03neither did I until it was really like

2:01:06you know after that it really required

2:01:08me to have the sony for long enough to

2:01:11get to know its flaws and then to to

2:01:14have the canon again in my hands and to

2:01:17see just how incredibly awesome a

2:01:19program SLR is when you haven't used one

2:01:22for a while and in the ways that the

2:01:24sony annoys me and it is giant I mean no

2:01:28quit is still huge and it is heavy and

2:01:30the lenses are bigger and heavier but it

2:01:33is really compelling dancer expect

2:01:36especially in the chat asking basically

2:01:39asking what about nikon SLR the and I i

2:01:42rented a d750 about a year-and-a-half

2:01:45ago before decided to get this sony I

2:01:47was kind of figure like we know which of

2:01:49the various sony sensor cameras do I

2:01:51want

2:01:52and of course the d750 and d810 were on

2:01:54that list to try and the main reason why

2:01:57they chose against the nikon 1 was that

2:02:01the cannon controls just gonna get along

2:02:03with me a little bit better and if it's

2:02:05the same thing she also prefers the

2:02:07cannon control you know standard layout

2:02:09maybe it's just what we used to who

2:02:10knows probably right but

2:02:12but you know something there and

2:02:14secondarily that nikon had some some

2:02:17holes in the lens lineup that we liked

2:02:20and and cannon is doing really well with

2:02:24their legs i have recently like the day

2:02:26for a while they their lenses were you

2:02:27know that they've always been great and

2:02:30great pretty good right but they were

2:02:32getting a little bit long in the tooth

2:02:34and in certain ones and the last couple

2:02:36years they have released a handful of

2:02:38incredible new lenses one of which i

2:02:41ordered with this 52 mph or try the the

2:02:43new 35-millimeter f2 is and I mean if I

2:02:47ever want to go with the zoom again the

2:02:49new 24 72.8 is shockingly good if i want

2:02:52to go faster on 35 eventually you know

2:02:54it's a giant heavy the 35 1.4 is

2:02:57shockingly good there there's a whole

2:03:00bunch of new pc modern cameras that are

2:03:02amazing the the cannon 40-millimeter

2:03:04pancake is incredibly small and light

2:03:07and short and incredibly good and

2:03:10costume was nothing I mean there's a lot

2:03:12here so nikon definitely has the the

2:03:16best sensors that are available in SL

2:03:18ours because there are so many sensors

2:03:19but I think cannon wins me over for

2:03:23lenses and control layout and because

2:03:27the cannon sensor is now closed in the

2:03:30qualities that the matter to me that

2:03:32that's kind of what's keeping me here

2:03:34so tell me again why you're not really

2:03:37considering micro four thirds and i'm

2:03:40not saying that it's the best option but

2:03:41it seems to me as a novice photographer

2:03:46that only kind of understands it it's

2:03:50smaller than a fallen SLR my battery

2:03:54life I have the problem of oh crap i

2:03:57haven't charged this thing and forever

2:03:58and now I really need it and it's nearly

2:04:00dead because I've used my camera time

2:04:03and the battery lasts forever and I just

2:04:05don't think about it right you know it's

2:04:06like your cell phone back when you would

2:04:07go a week between charging it he would

2:04:09be that day they'd be like crap i

2:04:12completely forgot to do this last night

2:04:13anyways battery life it lasts a long

2:04:15time it starts up pretty darn quickly it

2:04:18does have the problem of one of the two

2:04:20screens always being on if not both

2:04:21which is a little frustrating but again

2:04:25the battery life is great

2:04:26the Wi-Fi is super easy to turn on and

2:04:29off the app that olympus has for your

2:04:33phone does a perfectly sufficient job

2:04:36tracking your whereabouts if you tell it

2:04:39to it doesn't do it automatically but

2:04:40you go into the app you tell it hey

2:04:42start tracking where I am and then when

2:04:44you're done you you get on the Wi-Fi

2:04:46which again is very easy and you have

2:04:48the apps and that geo data to the to the

2:04:50camera and it'll geotag all your photos

2:04:53i mean in many ways it seems like it

2:04:56would be a good fit so what wouldn't

2:04:58gives you pause just haven't tried it in

2:04:59you and you're familiar with the cannon

2:05:01well and so first of all the the 5d mark

2:05:03for also has GPS built in

2:05:05oh that's super nice some of these are

2:05:08saying like you can leave it there's

2:05:10like two modes one of them is like kind

2:05:11of a more continuous one of them is kind

2:05:13of like a lighter or lower power one

2:05:15that's kind of less periodically updates

2:05:17the gps and that is apparently pretty

2:05:19nice in the battery and so not only can

2:05:21geotag yourself built in but it also

2:05:23automatically sets clock which is

2:05:25awesome because one of the one of the

2:05:26long-standing annoyances anybody who

2:05:28tries to use a separate camera that's

2:05:30not their phone and then mix those

2:05:31photos into their libraries is if your

2:05:33if your camera's clock is off by a

2:05:35little bit or buy a few hours if you

2:05:36travel that sucks and messes up all your

2:05:39stuff right so anyway so built-in GPS

2:05:41and Wi-Fi and in a battery that can

2:05:44probably handle it because it's a large

2:05:47camera with a large battery so that can

2:05:49probably handle it

2:05:50there is perfectly valid reasons to go

2:05:54with smaller cameras there they're great

2:05:57reasons why most people small cameras

2:05:59most people also should entrust their

2:06:01own coffee

2:06:02most people shouldn't be shouldn't be

2:06:03waiting for mac pros and most people

2:06:06should not have the 15-inch macbook pro

2:06:08know people she had a smaller macbook

2:06:09pro than 15 inches

2:06:11I however am a picky apple i have

2:06:14learned about myself as everyone else

2:06:16did long before i did but basically

2:06:18because i am a picky Apple I know myself

2:06:23now well enough to know that if I get

2:06:26anything that is not the biggest best

2:06:30most pro option for something I am

2:06:33likely to be frustrated by its

2:06:35limitations but that's not always true

2:06:38you don't have a

2:06:39p85 db9 TD you have a 90-day right so

2:06:43there are cases where and by the way I

2:06:45still stand by that decision i love my

2:06:47car is plenty fast enough and i love the

2:06:50amount of range it has and i love i

2:06:52didn't spend 20 grand more for it

2:06:53that's about all those things are great

2:06:56so this isn't true and everything that i

2:06:58that i buy or use but in certain areas

2:07:01that I care strongly about things like

2:07:03the computer i use the camera i use i

2:07:06have learned basically that like like it

2:07:10you know in four cameras there is the

2:07:12iphone which handles a lot of my

2:07:15photography needs because it's always my

2:07:16pocket so there's the iphone it's

2:07:19amazing for a lot of things its camera

2:07:22is very good considering its a phone

2:07:24camera that being said it is not as good

2:07:27as a regular camera

2:07:28my thinking is if i'm going to carry a

2:07:31regular camera at all and this is part

2:07:33of the reason let me to the sown in the

2:07:34first place being being like the largest

2:07:37mirrorless camera that's about her if

2:07:41I'm going to carry a camera at all i

2:07:43don't worry about carrying a camera that

2:07:44can fit in my pocket anymore because

2:07:46cameras that can fit in my pocket are

2:07:48usually not only better than the iphone

2:07:49and the iphone solve that role for me

2:07:52what I want is either the iphone or a

2:07:57camera that will carry separately in

2:07:58which case i wanted to be the best

2:07:59camera icon that it can possibly be a

2:08:01long time ago when we first butter 5d

2:08:04mark two in 2008 i first tried a

2:08:07full-frame camera and that ruin me

2:08:10forever and now if I'm going to carry a

2:08:13camera that is not my iphone i want to

2:08:16be full frame and while there while the

2:08:18smaller sensors have made tremendous

2:08:20progress in recent years and there are

2:08:24lots of amazing cameras that have micro

2:08:27four thirds or aps-c sized sensors full

2:08:30frame is still a step above in in areas

2:08:33i care about in noise in quality in

2:08:36optics full frame cameras havin a lot of

2:08:40advantage because that look much larger

2:08:42sensor size that the smaller cameras

2:08:44just won't match and there are downsides

2:08:45to it there are major downsides

2:08:47obviously cost is a big one size is a

2:08:49big one and as mentioned earlier speed

2:08:51is a big one because now you have like

2:08:53these giant sensors that take more

2:08:55battery life to power and then they have

2:08:57to have more electrons behind them to

2:08:58like you know convertible the pixel data

2:08:59and they have the image processor

2:09:01dealing with way more image data because

2:09:02it's way more megapixels and stuff like

2:09:04that so there are downsides to full

2:09:06frame but generally if i'm going to be

2:09:09shooting with anything that was not my

2:09:10iphone i want to be the opposite extreme

2:09:12want to be the best it can possibly be

2:09:14and for me that's a full-frame SLR yeah

2:09:17that makes sense i mean to kind of come

2:09:20to your defense for a moment and in

2:09:21arguing with myself

2:09:22the micro four-thirds that I have I

2:09:24don't have any pancake lenses for it i

2:09:27have a thing for 25 millimeter if i

2:09:30remember right that is that I use most

2:09:32often but we just picked up as we talked

2:09:34about on and off this 35 to 100

2:09:36millimeters zoom which I know zooms is

2:09:38not for everyone as you were talking

2:09:39about earlier but I i happen to like

2:09:42having the option and I tell you what

2:09:44with that zoom lens on this camera is

2:09:46not small

2:09:47I mean it's already not small with the

2:09:49prime but it is really not small with

2:09:52the zoom and so i'm not sure that I'm

2:09:54really saving that much over a full-on

2:09:58DSLR I mean it's certainly smaller but

2:10:00it it's not night and day by any stretch

2:10:03of the imagination and the sony has the

2:10:05same in the same issue where there are a

2:10:07few hey there's a small number of small

2:10:10prime lenses for the for the sony fe

2:10:12mount that are great and the 1i keep on

2:10:14the camera the vast majority of the time

2:10:15is a 35-millimeter f 2.8 sony prime it's

2:10:19great if you want like more light intake

2:10:22or if you want to zoom that is not

2:10:24horrible

2:10:25it does get very big and heavy very

2:10:27quickly because that's just what it

2:10:28takes like if you have if you have a

2:10:30full-frame sensor ready and you need a

2:10:32lot of a lot of light to hit that way

2:10:34that doesn't suck and if you want to

2:10:36have a zoom lens to have like the

2:10:37versatility of that you're gonna have

2:10:39this giant heavy piece of glass on there

2:10:41so the size benefit for for mirrorless

2:10:45cameras i think mostly only holds if

2:10:48either you're willing to give up a lot

2:10:49of quality and have a really crappy zoom

2:10:51in which case you can make them smaller

2:10:52or if you're using primes and not even

2:10:55very fast primes so that that does

2:10:58represent a lot of my you certainly i

2:11:00mean the the 35 prime is what i have on

2:11:02there is that most of the time and so

2:11:03that combo is quite small and I was

2:11:05thinking I i actually like

2:11:06if i'm going to switch back to slrs I

2:11:09still might keep the sony and just keep

2:11:1135-millimeter prime and have that be

2:11:12like my my small setup if i ever need

2:11:14that but it was like really once you

2:11:18have large glass on their the size of

2:11:20the body matters less and actually

2:11:22becomes sometimes harder to use like if

2:11:25you have a big big imbalance between

2:11:27like a giant he lands on this tiny

2:11:29little hairless body that it actually

2:11:30can be harder to handle

2:11:32so anyway I'm ruined forever

2:11:36I don't even know what you're talking

2:11:37about at this point I mean you are you

2:11:41are probably one nice set of in your

2:11:44monitors away from just going completely

2:11:46off the deep end and a good thing isn't

2:11:49happy I've already like my my audio deep

2:11:52end I already did that years ago I i got

2:11:54my crazy headphones

2:11:55I'm set there I even my Christian phones

2:11:58aren't even as crazy as as they could be

2:12:00or they were like the one the headphone

2:12:02end up with were not the biggest

2:12:04heaviest most expensive pair that I that

2:12:06I ever owned or tried and I hand and the

2:12:09headphones i have they have since been

2:12:11succeeded by by multiple new models that

2:12:14replace them and I i have not even had

2:12:16the desire trying to like to have fun so

2:12:18much I haven't even tried them the

2:12:19replacements so like this is just how I

2:12:21am with things like I you know i'll go

2:12:23crazy or something for a while but I

2:12:24kind of get settled for a long time like

2:12:26once I find something really nice that I

2:12:29like John are you still liking your

2:12:31camera

2:12:31yeah i know i'm watching the the

2:12:34upgraded model that has been announced

2:12:37yeah that's right i made it i don't know

2:12:39it sucks because they have what I also

2:12:41found out that it's actually bigger I'm

2:12:42like all right well how much bigger it's

2:12:44two millimeters bigger is a bigger in a

2:12:46way that will notice so I that's the

2:12:48only wild card there but if it if it is

2:12:50not that much bigger and that the

2:12:52reviews say that it's basically my

2:12:54camera but better in these such ways

2:12:56i'll probably sell us want to get that

2:12:58one

2:12:58yeah because baby got bigger because it

2:13:01added in in body image stabilization and

2:13:03that so it's it was a similar size

2:13:06increase as when they went as when the a

2:13:087-series went from the regular a77 to

2:13:11line so i expect the size difference to

2:13:13be substantial and I expect you're not

2:13:15going to like it

2:13:16however you might want to anyway because

2:13:18of the stabilization being pretty cool

2:13:20that being said center stabilization is

2:13:22not as good as having the lenses but if

2:13:25but when you have a lens that doesn't

2:13:27have it it's nice to have I was thinking

2:13:29of stuff well first of all I think all

2:13:30my lenses have it at this point are put

2:13:33on them

2:13:33let's say I just got that I know my

2:13:35portrait one does does this one maybe it

2:13:41doesn't make me a pancake one doesn't

2:13:42but the other thing is it has

2:13:45touchscreen and so that could be good

2:13:48and they like it's kind of weird that

2:13:50this camera doesn't have one or it could

2:13:51be bad and the touchscreen your I could

2:13:53be even worse than using the little

2:13:54happening so I'm gonna have to like the

2:13:56iphone i think that Susan person and

2:13:58hold it and see what it's like

2:13:59and the only reason i'm considering

2:14:01creating up is like I can reuse my

2:14:04lenses i'm gonna i'm gonna buy that lens

2:14:06that my wife complications all have will

2:14:08have three lenses and then just swapping

2:14:10out the body something the body is the

2:14:11least expensive part of my camera setup

2:14:13shockingly for someone who this is my

2:14:17first camera that even has lenses now I

2:14:19know I'm in the lens ecosystem and so i

2:14:21can swap out the bodies and hopefully

2:14:23someone will be willing to buy 6300 of

2:14:25that if the time comes but yeah i'll

2:14:27check it out

2:14:28I mean in all fairness like having more

2:14:31money being spent on the glass but the

2:14:32body is generally the right thing to do

2:14:34like the if you if you have to allocate

2:14:36funds it somewhere between those two use

2:14:40the lens of the better use of the money

2:14:41because not only can they last between

2:14:43multiple bodies but they like I'd rather

2:14:46have a great lens on a crappy camera

2:14:48then the opposite

2:14:50yeah I don't know yeah like a if you

2:14:53look at the performance differences is

2:14:55not i don't expect that any other

2:14:57aspects of it are going to be

2:14:58phenomenally better i think the price

2:15:00actually is has gone up a surprising

2:15:02amount so it's not a slam dunk that i'm

2:15:05going to end up thinking that this is

2:15:06better enough to justify that we have

2:15:08like 500 bucks or something so i don't

2:15:10know i might still went out and just

2:15:12keep this camera goals a i do want to

2:15:14quickly talk about video and now there's

2:15:16a couple in chat talking my video the

2:15:19sony is way better video no question and

2:15:22and this kind of like ever since the 5d

2:15:24mark two that that kind of introduced

2:15:27high-end video capabilities to what were

2:15:30you previously photo only SLR categories

2:15:33where's have basically been focusing a

2:15:35lot on video features because that's

2:15:37what the market is demanding and so you

2:15:40you basically have video abilities

2:15:42creeping into and in some ways

2:15:43dominating the development of cameras

2:15:46the features are going to them the

2:15:47reviews whatever you say about them how

2:15:49they sell things at that if I would if I

2:15:51mainly shot video on my camera I would

2:15:53stick with the sony line because i think

2:15:55those have been those improve themselves

2:15:56to be the best regular cameras that also

2:16:00shoot video for video purpose however I

2:16:04i learned in the program the course of

2:16:06owning this camera that i hardly ever

2:16:08shoot video on my camera because my

2:16:10iphone a better job of it

2:16:11yeah i know this is not this is not true

2:16:13for pros if you're like actually like a

2:16:15professional video shoot fine use a good

2:16:18camera is a good everything that's not

2:16:20what we're doing here what I'm doing is

2:16:22shooting video of my kids running around

2:16:24and for that purpose the iphone is

2:16:26better not only because it's always in

2:16:27my pocket but also the iphone is way

2:16:30better at auto exposure autofocus the

2:16:32built-in microphone is way better

2:16:34cutting out noise and crap so the video

2:16:38i get out of my iphone is substantially

2:16:41nicer in general to watch even though it

2:16:43is less technically good as the video i

2:16:46get out of my fancy cameras so therefore

2:16:49my camera use is only for photos and

2:16:54videos are shot on the phone i'm the

2:16:56same way I know it's not exactly the

2:16:58same thing because my camera shoots 1080

2:17:01and and the iphone will shoot 4k but

2:17:05especially with the seven and the

2:17:07optical image stabilization that's in

2:17:09there i will was stupefied and how good

2:17:13the OIS is we went pumpkin picking this

2:17:16past weekend and the particular place we

2:17:18do that you get on a trailer that's

2:17:21total hind like a John Deere tractor and

2:17:23they tote you know that you ride out to

2:17:25where the pumpkins are then you

2:17:27eventually get a ride back and as you

2:17:29can imagine in a dirt field you know

2:17:31it's bumpy is crap and i took a couple

2:17:34of short videos on on this trailer on

2:17:38the back of this tractor in a field in

2:17:41Virginia and it certainly looks like

2:17:44things are bumpy but i can assure

2:17:47you that it looks way way less bumpy on

2:17:51this video then the reality of the

2:17:53situation was as I'm like going all over

2:17:55this trailer behind this this tractor i

2:17:58mean i-i I could not believe my eyes and

2:18:00how good this image stabilization was it

2:18:03was truly tremendous