The Accidental Tech Podcast

191: The Failure Mode of a Train


00:00:00   we didn't talk about this on the show [TS]

00:00:01   but the most important revelation of [TS]

00:00:02   cases video him sending me the dollar is [TS]

00:00:04   just how terrible is in writing is my [TS]

00:00:07   wow so here's why it's extra awful like [TS]

00:00:10   my handwriting is like chicken scratch I [TS]

00:00:12   have terrible handwriting right but [TS]

00:00:14   yours is terrible but then it has an [TS]

00:00:15   extra flavor and the extra flavor it's [TS]

00:00:17   terrible you and you do unconventional [TS]

00:00:19   things you connect the letters in ways [TS]

00:00:23   that other people don't so it's not just [TS]

00:00:24   you let your sloppily drawing the letter [TS]

00:00:26   shapes you decide that two letters [TS]

00:00:28   should be connected like in in ways that [TS]

00:00:30   are not normal so it's it's just hard to [TS]

00:00:33   parse you're like is this this even [TS]

00:00:35   English letters I don't even know what [TS]

00:00:37   your boy that bad handwriting marketing [TS]

00:00:42   before the show that he was having a [TS]

00:00:43   little bit of troubles with the [TS]

00:00:45   livestream and and I don't understand [TS]

00:00:47   why for a moment until you started [TS]

00:00:49   explaining to me what's going on and [TS]

00:00:50   then I realized oh yes i'm having [TS]

00:00:52   similar problems but manifesting [TS]

00:00:54   themselves in different ways so why [TS]

00:00:56   don't you tell the listeners what's [TS]

00:00:57   going on [TS]

00:00:58   ok so as you might have noticed the [TS]

00:01:00   tweet that announce that we are going to [TS]

00:01:02   be live the the time duration that was [TS]

00:01:05   in that we normally it's like we'll be [TS]

00:01:06   live in 45 minutes you know usually at [TS]

00:01:09   tristar livestream about a half hour or [TS]

00:01:12   a little more before recording and today [TS]

00:01:15   the time interval was seven minutes 48 [TS]

00:01:18   minutes i forget which one [TS]

00:01:19   and the reason it looks longer set up i [TS]

00:01:22   was here at eight-thirty i was here at [TS]

00:01:24   the 30-minute mark trying to get going [TS]

00:01:26   and I realize all afternoon and evening [TS]

00:01:29   hover has been going through this [TS]

00:01:31   massive ddos attack that has taken down [TS]

00:01:34   among other things their dns servers [TS]

00:01:36   market organs who is hosted by hover [TS]

00:01:39   registered over and I use their dns [TS]

00:01:41   market orgs VPS is what hosts the [TS]

00:01:44   icecast server the powers this live [TS]

00:01:47   stream is basically spent the last half [TS]

00:01:49   hour trying to first see if i can get it [TS]

00:01:51   working just by IP address but that was [TS]

00:01:54   going to be tricky because of various [TS]

00:01:56   virtual hosting things and eventually i [TS]

00:01:58   just created a whole new host name [TS]

00:02:00   however didn't register dot FM's for a [TS]

00:02:02   while I actually don't know if they do I [TS]

00:02:04   think they might now but for a long time [TS]

00:02:06   they didn't register dot FM's so ATP FM [TS]

00:02:09   is registered at Gandhi dotnet so I [TS]

00:02:11   quickly ran over there created a new [TS]

00:02:13   domain name live by ATP FM hopeful hope [TS]

00:02:16   that propagated in time you know to be [TS]

00:02:19   requested by anybody and fortunately it [TS]

00:02:21   did I created that name like 840 and [TS]

00:02:23   basically move the whole thing over to [TS]

00:02:25   that and it's point to the same IP point [TS]

00:02:28   the same server and basically required [TS]

00:02:29   only a very quick creation of a new [TS]

00:02:31   virtual host on the market or server to [TS]

00:02:33   just recognize that hostname give it a [TS]

00:02:35   little like tiny little HTML page that [TS]

00:02:37   basically embed the audio player and [TS]

00:02:40   that all worked and it was great and [TS]

00:02:42   there we go so now we are streaming from [TS]

00:02:46   live by ATP dfm instead of market org [TS]

00:02:49   colon 8080 or whatever it was and [TS]

00:02:53   actually appears the the dns is my [TS]

00:02:55   actually had just ended but oh well [TS]

00:02:58   people are starting to tweet at me [TS]

00:03:00   saying oh your sites and sites and sites [TS]

00:03:02   down and out for a fleeting moment I was [TS]

00:03:03   like oh did I get fireball that's [TS]

00:03:04   exciting or something like that then I [TS]

00:03:06   thought no this was just a link post I [TS]

00:03:08   wouldn't be fireballs for that and then [TS]

00:03:10   it occurred to me oh no this is a much [TS]

00:03:11   greater issue entirely it i think it [TS]

00:03:13   really says a lot about how little i [TS]

00:03:15   blog anymore that my site has basically [TS]

00:03:18   been up and down for the last five or [TS]

00:03:21   six hours whenever this started [TS]

00:03:23   mm and I got in total one tweet about it [TS]

00:03:27   oh I'm so i'm so glad that i haven't had [TS]

00:03:30   to deal with stuff like that in my [TS]

00:03:32   various server administration stuff [TS]

00:03:34   that's got to be held deal with deal [TS]

00:03:36   with DDoS yeah i can imagine especially [TS]

00:03:39   if you mean imagine if you hover where [TS]

00:03:41   your you know your your hosting dns for [TS]

00:03:43   so many people like that that's good [TS]

00:03:45   that's your business to some degree and [TS]

00:03:47   God [TS]

00:03:48   No thank you I'm glad that's not my [TS]

00:03:50   problem i'm curious for the people in [TS]

00:03:53   the chat who are recommending different [TS]

00:03:54   dns providers i guess i don't know this [TS]

00:03:57   i probably should know this isn't your [TS]

00:03:59   registrar like the top authority so like [TS]

00:04:02   if somebody had a totally empty cache [TS]

00:04:03   let's suppose my burger star is still [TS]

00:04:05   hover but suppose I host the dns [TS]

00:04:08   somewhere else like cloudflare whatever [TS]

00:04:09   if a new request goes to fetch my dns [TS]

00:04:12   that has no cash information and any [TS]

00:04:14   stage it away is at first going to go to [TS]

00:04:16   my register r2 c2 the nse's and then go [TS]

00:04:18   to the NS so it basically like wood what [TS]

00:04:21   I have to check my record store in order [TS]

00:04:22   to prevent this from being from ever hit [TS]

00:04:24   me again how would you how would it know [TS]

00:04:26   you go to your registrar I don't know [TS]

00:04:28   how does it I don't know how did how [TS]

00:04:30   does dns actually work at the very low [TS]

00:04:31   level i have no idea you should read a [TS]

00:04:33   lot of the o'reilly books on dns and [TS]

00:04:36   buying something vague recollection and [TS]

00:04:39   the only way that occurs to me now as I [TS]

00:04:41   think about it was probably informed by [TS]

00:04:43   my vague recollection is if you've got [TS]

00:04:44   no information you can't start by going [TS]

00:04:46   to the name server for that domain [TS]

00:04:48   because you don't know what the name [TS]

00:04:49   server domain is so there's a set of [TS]

00:04:51   root nameservers that handle requests at [TS]

00:04:54   you know that you that shouldn't handle [TS]

00:04:56   requests at all because there was so [TS]

00:04:58   many layers of cashing in between but if [TS]

00:05:00   you really started from nothing to set [TS]

00:05:02   of root nameservers for.com and.net not [TS]

00:05:05   whatever and I don't know who those root [TS]

00:05:07   nameservers are and I don't know if [TS]

00:05:09   there is a more complicated system in [TS]

00:05:10   place that makes this old information [TS]

00:05:11   obviously because i read this book in [TS]

00:05:13   the nineties but that is my recollection [TS]

00:05:15   yeah and other people chatting to be [TS]

00:05:17   supporting the fact that basically like [TS]

00:05:18   if you don't use your registrar's [TS]

00:05:21   nameservers that your regular is not [TS]

00:05:23   involved in looking you up for dns van [TS]

00:05:24   anyway that goes up up through the I can [TS]

00:05:27   and Aaron maintained master server stuff [TS]

00:05:30   like that you're saying so it sounds [TS]

00:05:32   like I can stick with her for the [TS]

00:05:34   registration and just move the dns [TS]

00:05:36   somewhere else so that's good i think i [TS]

00:05:38   might do that just move it somewhere [TS]

00:05:39   smaller basically it's time for you to [TS]

00:05:41   run your own dns server hey why don't [TS]

00:05:44   you write your own dns server it's a [TS]

00:05:45   sense of thing that people have done [TS]

00:05:47   before [TS]

00:05:48   just ask those people they they love it [TS]

00:05:50   well actually it's funny bring this up [TS]

00:05:52   and I'm not trying to be funny one thing [TS]

00:05:54   that that I've wondered i keep meaning [TS]

00:05:56   to ask Marco but i but i keep forgetting [TS]

00:05:58   about it and this is a perfect [TS]

00:05:59   opportunity when you're building tumblr [TS]

00:06:02   and you are giving people subdomains [TS]

00:06:05   weren't you well maybe not you [TS]

00:06:07   personally but I'm saying tumblr was [TS]

00:06:08   making someone was giving people [TS]

00:06:10   submarines how did that work exactly it [TS]

00:06:13   excellent question so the problem as you [TS]

00:06:18   know but our listeners might not you [TS]

00:06:20   know basically the idea is if you have [TS]

00:06:21   some giant web service and you try to [TS]

00:06:23   have people like hosted remains there so [TS]

00:06:25   basically pointing their dns to you if [TS]

00:06:28   they're hosting a sub-domain like [TS]

00:06:29   www.usps.com they can point that to a [TS]

00:06:33   cname and a cname could just be like you [TS]

00:06:36   know host at squarespace.com at or [TS]

00:06:38   whatever and [TS]

00:06:38   and then that PostScript that can lead [TS]

00:06:42   anywhere square face wanted to it could [TS]

00:06:43   lead to a whole bunch of load balancers [TS]

00:06:45   can be geographically distributed can be [TS]

00:06:47   moved around between hosting servers it [TS]

00:06:48   needs to [TS]

00:06:49   it's great the problem is that the very [TS]

00:06:51   root entry so like instead of [TS]

00:06:53   www.icelebz.com if it's just Casey [TS]

00:06:56   list.com with no W that can't point to a [TS]

00:07:00   scene that has to be an a record for it [TS]

00:07:02   to work in a record he needs to be an IP [TS]

00:07:04   address so you basically have to have a [TS]

00:07:08   special kind of IP address that you can [TS]

00:07:11   route to different servers as needed or [TS]

00:07:14   you could like if you just have that as [TS]

00:07:15   a load balancer they sold there are [TS]

00:07:17   certain very advanced routing things you [TS]

00:07:19   can do to make that not crazy but [TS]

00:07:23   they're not easy and they are limited [TS]

00:07:25   when usually only have when you have the [TS]

00:07:27   IP instead of instead of like a cname [TS]

00:07:29   what we did for the first couple years [TS]

00:07:33   tumblr started a rackspace they started [TS]

00:07:35   out with one server rack space and [TS]

00:07:37   eventually grew to three servers [TS]

00:07:39   Rackspace and then it was like oh Sh [TS]

00:07:42   rackspace is ridiculously expensive we [TS]

00:07:44   will never be able to afford to scale [TS]

00:07:45   here so we very quickly moved over to [TS]

00:07:48   what was then called the planet which is [TS]

00:07:49   now today softlayer we had already [TS]

00:07:51   started telling people to point their [TS]

00:07:52   their names at this one IP that we had a [TS]

00:07:55   Rackspace's usual it was are like master [TS]

00:07:57   server with a load balancer on it we [TS]

00:07:59   moved to the planet we kept one server [TS]

00:08:02   at rackspace for a long time I i had to [TS]

00:08:06   be at least two years into intertemporal [TS]

00:08:09   like insane growth where if you had [TS]

00:08:11   looked at our dns help page before [TS]

00:08:13   assert before like you know six months [TS]

00:08:16   into into the service you your domain [TS]

00:08:18   would have been point there which is [TS]

00:08:20   many of our very large users being [TS]

00:08:22   proxied through forget whether it was [TS]

00:08:25   squid or a crap what's that shape Roxy [TS]

00:08:29   yes it was quitter a proxy running on [TS]

00:08:31   this one rackspace server for years [TS]

00:08:33   proxy all this old traffic and [TS]

00:08:35   eventually shut that down i think but it [TS]

00:08:36   was years and years into the service and [TS]

00:08:39   then we're at the planet we basically [TS]

00:08:40   had like some kind of floating IP that [TS]

00:08:42   their routers could assign to anything [TS]

00:08:44   within the data center and that that [TS]

00:08:45   made that a little bit easier and i'm [TS]

00:08:47   sure with like geo dns you might have [TS]

00:08:50   more options i don't know enough about [TS]

00:08:51   say fortunately about time company to [TS]

00:08:53   care about stuff like that i was gone it [TS]

00:08:55   was my job anymore but with it but that [TS]

00:08:57   was all for like me redirecting my own [TS]

00:09:00   domains hit to tumblr right so how does [TS]

00:09:02   like something got tumblr.com work [TS]

00:09:04   though [TS]

00:09:05   well that's that's just a wild-card [TS]

00:09:07   virtualhost that's like like the the web [TS]

00:09:10   servers just literally had wildcard [TS]

00:09:11   virtual host and the insulating like the [TS]

00:09:14   the PHP app that would get the invite [TS]

00:09:16   request which is look at the host name [TS]

00:09:17   was and then dispatches from there [TS]

00:09:19   that's cheating why I don't know I'm [TS]

00:09:22   just kidding [TS]

00:09:23   it wasn't much i was expecting this like [TS]

00:09:25   super long and involved answer and I was [TS]

00:09:27   super simple and boring i'm disappointed [TS]

00:09:29   sorry but that's alright I'll forgive [TS]

00:09:31   you this once all right we should [TS]

00:09:33   probably get to follow proper i think i [TS]

00:09:36   have all of the follow up this week [TS]

00:09:38   which is making not very uncomfortable [TS]

00:09:40   to be honest but we're gonna roll with [TS]

00:09:42   it if I'm here Casey and you're here [TS]

00:09:45   doesn't make it our follow-up the am but [TS]

00:09:48   I am the one who put all of the three [TS]

00:09:50   bullets into the into the show notes [TS]

00:09:52   which is I should first and I'm not [TS]

00:09:55   feeling too comfortable with this [TS]

00:09:56   I mean in reality isn't always basically [TS]

00:09:58   John's follow-up basically but here we [TS]

00:10:01   are [TS]

00:10:01   so anyway I'm a friend of the show's [TS]

00:10:04   dietrich-smith put up Twitter poll don't [TS]

00:10:08   know week ago maybe a little over a week [TS]

00:10:09   ago [TS]

00:10:10   it says listening to the latest HP FM [TS]

00:10:12   curious did you turn on desktop and [TS]

00:10:14   documents iCloud sink in mac OS Sierra i [TS]

00:10:17   did and i'm happy with it now [TS]

00:10:19   steve is a very prolific iOS developer [TS]

00:10:22   hacker so you have to consider that when [TS]

00:10:25   you consider the people sort of person [TS]

00:10:28   that is likely to follow him and the [TS]

00:10:30   poll results results as we record [TS]

00:10:32   30-percent yes and I'm happy with it [TS]

00:10:34   four percent yes and I regretted it [TS]

00:10:37   twenty-nine percent know and the winner [TS]

00:10:39   37-percent hell no I just thought was [TS]

00:10:43   kind of interesting so yeah so thanks to [TS]

00:10:46   Steve for putting that up i don't [TS]

00:10:48   believe in the official twitter client [TS]

00:10:50   thus I cannot create polls I love seeing [TS]

00:10:53   that the EMT the empty space where polls [TS]

00:10:56   should be as eyebrows twitter yet you [TS]

00:10:59   can sense like this must be a pole but [TS]

00:11:01   this to it doesn't make sense [TS]

00:11:03   oh well i'll never see it and I [TS]

00:11:04   you on my way yeah so this obviously [TS]

00:11:07   this is not a scientific poll whatever [TS]

00:11:08   it's just twitter stuff the fact that [TS]

00:11:11   most people have been scared away from [TS]

00:11:13   this feature like i said if it's a bunch [TS]

00:11:15   of nerds following you know I never [TS]

00:11:17   Twitter account and makes sense that [TS]

00:11:18   they would be the people who are reading [TS]

00:11:20   reviews and becoming or listen to our [TS]

00:11:22   podcast and being scared away from the [TS]

00:11:23   feature so that's why the vast majority [TS]

00:11:24   of like no I did not enable this feature [TS]

00:11:26   and that's why hell no wins because [TS]

00:11:27   these people are afraid of the future [TS]

00:11:28   because they read scary things about the [TS]

00:11:31   other possibility is if you know even if [TS]

00:11:33   they do the things they read about her [TS]

00:11:34   and that scary they may be in a [TS]

00:11:36   situation like me where they know [TS]

00:11:37   they're now liar that they have a lot of [TS]

00:11:40   files or they have some very large files [TS]

00:11:42   and I think you've never works for most [TS]

00:11:44   people i know i'm at the edge of the [TS]

00:11:47   envelope here and I probably shouldn't [TS]

00:11:48   enable it but if you just look at the [TS]

00:11:50   people who did in a bullet most unhappy [TS]

00:11:53   with it right so four percent yes and I [TS]

00:11:55   regretted isn't isn't that big number [TS]

00:11:56   and of course the people are happy with [TS]

00:11:57   it maybe they're happy with it now you [TS]

00:11:59   wait a year to see how happy they are [TS]

00:12:01   because you know all it takes is one [TS]

00:12:02   thing that goes awry it you become you [TS]

00:12:05   know upset about but anyway um yeah it's [TS]

00:12:08   really difficult to get a read on these [TS]

00:12:09   things without an actual an actual study [TS]

00:12:13   controlling for all the variables [TS]

00:12:14   especially when nerdy people like us ask [TS]

00:12:17   about it because it's a self-selecting [TS]

00:12:19   group i wanted to also briefly touch on [TS]

00:12:22   my headphones [TS]

00:12:23   last week we had talked about how my [TS]

00:12:25   beloved but ancient and adorably crappy [TS]

00:12:28   headphones i had kicked the bucket well [TS]

00:12:31   sort of [TS]

00:12:32   they weren't cooperating well with my [TS]

00:12:33   work laptop with Sierra which is the [TS]

00:12:35   laptop that they're pretty much always [TS]

00:12:36   connected to and I'd solicited [TS]

00:12:39   suggestions for alternatives and [TS]

00:12:41   promptly ignored every single one of [TS]

00:12:42   them because guess what headphones [TS]

00:12:44   spontaneously started working again the [TS]

00:12:46   old crappy adorable headphones yeah yeah [TS]

00:12:49   i was very excited about this [TS]

00:12:51   I did you a PM reset which I didn't have [TS]

00:12:53   a chance to do before the show [TS]

00:12:55   of course this was I was shotgunning and [TS]

00:12:58   just trying everything under the Sun to [TS]

00:12:59   try to figure out how to make them work [TS]

00:13:00   again and i'm not entirely clear what it [TS]

00:13:02   was that did it for sure i think i had [TS]

00:13:05   rebooted at least once it is that what [TS]

00:13:06   shotgunning means it's like trying to [TS]

00:13:08   headphones at once yes I'm like that I [TS]

00:13:11   don't steal shotguns they spray a bunch [TS]

00:13:13   of little pellets everywhere at least [TS]

00:13:15   that's my understanding [TS]

00:13:16   I don't don't don't even [TS]

00:13:17   me and now we're here for gun people i [TS]

00:13:20   know place tonight I'm so sorry god I'm [TS]

00:13:23   so sorry anyway um so I wanted to [TS]

00:13:25   quickly cover a handful of options if [TS]

00:13:28   you're in a similar scenario that i [TS]

00:13:30   heard a lot of responses from the first [TS]

00:13:32   one the motorola motorola s305 these [TS]

00:13:35   links will be in the show notes [TS]

00:13:36   those are the ones I used prior to the [TS]

00:13:38   ones that i am currently using and i [TS]

00:13:41   love them except that the battery went [TS]

00:13:43   to crap pretty darn quickly and I used [TS]

00:13:45   to be able to make it through an entire [TS]

00:13:46   day very fast and by honor maybe six [TS]

00:13:50   months or a year after getting them i [TS]

00:13:51   could no longer make an entire day with [TS]

00:13:53   the s05 there were a lot of suggestions [TS]

00:13:56   for the plantronics backbeat it which [TS]

00:13:59   have the behind the neck head bone head [TS]

00:14:02   bone wow the behind the neck brace if [TS]

00:14:06   you will that I had been requesting [TS]

00:14:07   because i'm too prissy to have my hair [TS]

00:14:09   squashed but those were also kind of [TS]

00:14:12   sort of earbuds into me if I'm going to [TS]

00:14:13   go here but sometimes we'll just go air [TS]

00:14:15   pods and battery potential battery [TS]

00:14:17   issues be damned [TS]

00:14:18   but those were very very popular very [TS]

00:14:21   very popular response i was almost going [TS]

00:14:24   to buy our next set which is the kidney [TS]

00:14:27   though Kim evo-devo I don't know [TS]

00:14:29   quinoa a bth 60v to France SI è qui [TS]

00:14:36   know was that commercial who's ready for [TS]

00:14:38   some football but food commercial anyway [TS]

00:14:41   point being the novella bth 260 and [TS]

00:14:44   there is another there's an older [TS]

00:14:46   version i don't recall the model name [TS]

00:14:48   number whatever that did not support apt [TS]

00:14:51   x but this pair apparently does and this [TS]

00:14:54   is what I was about to buy when my plate [TS]

00:14:58   by old bluetooth headphones came back to [TS]

00:14:59   life then there are a lot of people [TS]

00:15:02   suggested various kinds of earbuds but [TS]

00:15:06   with shoulder neck carniss things those [TS]

00:15:10   things always look horrible to me like [TS]

00:15:12   those always look like the worst develop [TS]

00:15:14   all worlds basically it's like you have [TS]

00:15:16   this like you have the the discomfort of [TS]

00:15:18   earbuds and and all the crappy sound [TS]

00:15:21   that usually goes along with them and [TS]

00:15:24   but you don't have like the tiny like [TS]

00:15:25   you know tiny little size or wrap around [TS]

00:15:27   the phone kind of cable you still have [TS]

00:15:29   this big block of battery [TS]

00:15:30   crap you have to deal with and it's just [TS]

00:15:32   like I don't I don't get why everybody [TS]

00:15:34   likes those please don't write in yeah [TS]

00:15:36   and i completely agree with everything [TS]

00:15:39   you just said they're very very many [TS]

00:15:41   different flavors of this particular [TS]

00:15:42   example of putting in the show notes is [TS]

00:15:43   the LG tone pro HPS 750 and again these [TS]

00:15:48   will be in the show notes are i [TS]

00:15:49   completely agree with you at the thought [TS]

00:15:50   of having this thing resting on my [TS]

00:15:51   shoulders you also have an earbud seems [TS]

00:15:53   like the worst of all worlds [TS]

00:15:54   not for me but but definitely on paper [TS]

00:15:58   it sounds like it would be good because [TS]

00:15:59   presumably it has forever long battery [TS]

00:16:01   life this particular set is also apt x [TS]

00:16:04   compatible etc etc the final [TS]

00:16:06   recommendation which i'm actually [TS]

00:16:08   looking into because they just seem very [TS]

00:16:10   interesting to me is a bone in bone [TS]

00:16:14   conduction is that what it's called yes [TS]

00:16:15   bone conduction headphones and the way [TS]

00:16:17   these works are you have these things [TS]

00:16:20   thats it pressing against your cheek [TS]

00:16:21   bones and they vibrate your cheekbones [TS]

00:16:24   which vibrates your head in the things [TS]

00:16:27   inside your head [TS]

00:16:28   hopefully kind of in a not dangerous way [TS]

00:16:30   a lot of people wrote in to talk about [TS]

00:16:32   that and i'm actually looking into that [TS]

00:16:33   as well so the aftershocks tracks as an [TS]

00:16:36   example that that'll be in the show [TS]

00:16:37   notes too so if you're in a similar [TS]

00:16:40   situation you can look at all those or [TS]

00:16:42   just try to find an ancient power like I [TS]

00:16:44   have and do whatever magical incantation [TS]

00:16:46   / sacrifices i did in order to get them [TS]

00:16:48   to work so I'm curious its penis because [TS]

00:16:52   of my whole like inability to [TS]

00:16:54   comfortably wear anything any year I [TS]

00:16:56   don't know the answer that i'm curious [TS]

00:16:58   for all these looks like really tiny in [TS]

00:17:00   ear bluetooth things what do they do for [TS]

00:17:02   remote control commands things like [TS]

00:17:04   volume and play pause and skip back seat [TS]

00:17:06   forward do they have buttons somehow for [TS]

00:17:08   that like how do they do that well and [TS]

00:17:10   that's why the plantronics backbeat fit [TS]

00:17:13   are a popular choice i think because [TS]

00:17:17   they have those bars the rest on your [TS]

00:17:19   shoulders of those those orbs that rest [TS]

00:17:21   on your shoulders that that I presume [TS]

00:17:23   have excuse me I'm sorry I'm getting [TS]

00:17:25   myself backwards we try that all over [TS]

00:17:27   again so that's why the top the [TS]

00:17:30   plantronics backbeat it is popular [TS]

00:17:32   because their ear buds but with like [TS]

00:17:33   panels on the outside of the year but if [TS]

00:17:36   that makes any sense at all and so the [TS]

00:17:39   buttons are on there and additionally on [TS]

00:17:41   those shoulder harness see things [TS]

00:17:44   LG's and i think a few people have [TS]

00:17:45   recommended Sony's that were similar [TS]

00:17:47   design those I think have the buttons on [TS]

00:17:50   those little like shoulder pad things or [TS]

00:17:52   whatever they are that rest on your [TS]

00:17:53   shoulder so i guess that works for those [TS]

00:17:56   but i can't speak for any like true to [TS]

00:18:00   form earbuds and I did get a lot of [TS]

00:18:02   recommendations actually I can't recall [TS]

00:18:04   which one was the most popular but a lot [TS]

00:18:06   of recommendations for just straight-up [TS]

00:18:09   earbuds that have the cord behind you [TS]

00:18:11   but if i'm going to go that route I'd [TS]

00:18:13   rather have like the the one of the ones [TS]

00:18:15   i have today that just kind of rest on [TS]

00:18:17   my ears i'm not a big earbud fan [TS]

00:18:21   although that being said the more I hear [TS]

00:18:22   about the air pods the more I think [TS]

00:18:24   they're going on my holiday list because [TS]

00:18:26   it sounds like they're the best possible [TS]

00:18:28   solution in that they have almost enough [TS]

00:18:31   battery life if I listen all day long [TS]

00:18:34   oh jay bird x2 is all said in the chat [TS]

00:18:37   on believe those are the ones that [TS]

00:18:38   everyone and their mother had [TS]

00:18:39   recommended anyway so I think the [TS]

00:18:43   airports are probably the best bet [TS]

00:18:44   because if i ever get up from my desk [TS]

00:18:46   for like any reason I can pop them back [TS]

00:18:48   in a little Tic Tac holder and that will [TS]

00:18:50   probably give me enough juice to get [TS]

00:18:51   through the rest of the day so hopefully [TS]

00:18:53   Santa or the equivalent I guess Hanukkah [TS]

00:18:58   Harry if you will hope he'll be good to [TS]

00:19:01   me this year and maybe i'll come up with [TS]

00:19:03   a set of those moving on last piece [TS]

00:19:06   follow up on this I think will be a [TS]

00:19:07   little bit more shared front of the show [TS]

00:19:09   great könig had written a post earlier [TS]

00:19:11   today about why your next iphone won't [TS]

00:19:14   be ceramic and if nothing else it's a [TS]

00:19:17   great post because it includes a [TS]

00:19:19   screenshot of one of my favorite movies [TS]

00:19:20   of all time the hunt for red october but [TS]

00:19:22   what great goes through in this post is [TS]

00:19:25   why he thinks and that this is probably [TS]

00:19:28   not going to be a thing and if you don't [TS]

00:19:29   know Greg he is uh i think a co-founder [TS]

00:19:33   one of just a handful of employees of [TS]

00:19:35   luma labs and they make the loop which [TS]

00:19:37   is the camera strap i have on my big [TS]

00:19:39   camera as we speak and that was not [TS]

00:19:42   compensated by what was a gift but was [TS]

00:19:44   from families or somebody paid actual [TS]

00:19:46   money for it it's really great i love [TS]

00:19:48   that thing and so Greg manufacturers [TS]

00:19:50   stuff for living that's what he does and [TS]

00:19:52   his point which he had a very long essay [TS]

00:19:55   and it's worth reading every bit of it [TS]

00:19:57   but if i were to [TS]

00:19:57   quickly distill it down he said apples a [TS]

00:20:00   hardware company and machined aluminum [TS]

00:20:01   is their primary platform at peak [TS]

00:20:03   production apples manufacturing roughly [TS]

00:20:05   a million iphones a day so for Apple to [TS]

00:20:08   bring a whole new long cycle time [TS]

00:20:10   process online the sort of thing that [TS]

00:20:11   would that ceramic would require they [TS]

00:20:14   would need warehouses with tens of [TS]

00:20:16   thousands exchanging thousands of [TS]

00:20:17   machines already squared away and ready [TS]

00:20:20   to rock with thousands more machines [TS]

00:20:22   being built the machines that are [TS]

00:20:23   building the iphones they would need to [TS]

00:20:25   be thousands of those will probably need [TS]

00:20:27   to be those machines would be needing to [TS]

00:20:30   be built to to add to the collection [TS]

00:20:32   it's already ready to rock [TS]

00:20:34   so in his perspective there's no [TS]

00:20:37   freaking way that's gonna happen anytime [TS]

00:20:38   soon and it's really worth reading all [TS]

00:20:40   because I'm Way over simplifying it but [TS]

00:20:43   you should check it out we'll put it in [TS]

00:20:44   the show notes one just have also it's [TS]

00:20:46   like in order to to get the machines and [TS]

00:20:49   tooling and everything set up to produce [TS]

00:20:51   ceramic iphone cases at the scale need [TS]

00:20:54   to to to you know to produce enough [TS]

00:20:56   iphone instrument to meet demand they [TS]

00:20:58   could theoretically do it but not only [TS]

00:21:00   would it be like way way way more [TS]

00:21:02   machines and space and money and people [TS]

00:21:04   than what they have now but the gist of [TS]

00:21:07   it was like if they were even preparing [TS]

00:21:09   for that you couldn't hide that amount [TS]

00:21:11   of investment and effort like that would [TS]

00:21:13   take years to build up if they were [TS]

00:21:15   going to do it and it would you know you [TS]

00:21:17   would you would see that you would see [TS]

00:21:18   people talking about noticing it and [TS]

00:21:20   expenditures you see sources in the [TS]

00:21:22   supply chain talking about it and [TS]

00:21:23   leaking information and apple acquiring [TS]

00:21:25   companies are staffing up you know in [TS]

00:21:27   certain ways basically it's like it [TS]

00:21:28   would be such a massive undertaking and [TS]

00:21:31   just like stuff money and people that [TS]

00:21:33   they really couldn't hide it by [TS]

00:21:35   disguising it as a car development [TS]

00:21:37   program you're always billion dollars [TS]

00:21:40   will make a car who would believe that [TS]

00:21:42   anyway some for the past i think the [TS]

00:21:44   past now for a long time now i think [TS]

00:21:46   apple has to have been internally [TS]

00:21:49   looking for their next material after [TS]

00:21:52   machined aluminum because [TS]

00:21:53   machine-to-machine little mage began [TS]

00:21:55   with the the macbook air the aluminum [TS]

00:21:57   age began something before that once [TS]

00:21:59   they settle the machined aluminum they [TS]

00:22:01   had nice that my situation where so many [TS]

00:22:04   things they made started the block of [TS]

00:22:06   aluminum and these computer-controlled [TS]

00:22:08   milling machine [TS]

00:22:09   James you know would carve out what they [TS]

00:22:11   wanted and they do that for so many [TS]

00:22:13   products and that's good because then [TS]

00:22:15   you've got sort of a solid thing to [TS]

00:22:17   invest in things to become good at they [TS]

00:22:19   buy all these machines the machines get [TS]

00:22:21   faster so on and so forth the part of [TS]

00:22:23   the the thing that Greg was talking [TS]

00:22:25   about in the post is exactly how long [TS]

00:22:26   does it take to go from raw material to [TS]

00:22:29   apart and ceramic takes longer than [TS]

00:22:31   machining aluminum because you gotta do [TS]

00:22:32   the whole baking process or molding and [TS]

00:22:35   also its first seven and I am I looking [TS]

00:22:38   for the next material that's a lot of [TS]

00:22:40   research and I like oh you had mentioned [TS]

00:22:42   last show from carbon fibre some kind of [TS]

00:22:45   surround make a different things with [TS]

00:22:46   plastics I don't think they've found [TS]

00:22:49   what their next thing is going to be but [TS]

00:22:51   surely they are looking for it because [TS]

00:22:53   they're looking for something that is [TS]

00:22:56   like a net win over luminous pretty [TS]

00:22:58   great [TS]

00:22:59   it has something that somebody's going [TS]

00:23:01   to remove the way he does easy to [TS]

00:23:03   machine 22 high tolerances that you know [TS]

00:23:05   that it's a sort of a known quantity [TS]

00:23:07   they can mess with the formulation of [TS]

00:23:08   the aluminum has a great points out and [TS]

00:23:11   not have to replace the machines right [TS]

00:23:12   because they can all still not going to [TS]

00:23:14   change from 6,000 6000 7000 series [TS]

00:23:16   aluminum they can still use all the same [TS]

00:23:18   machines but it's got downsides to its [TS]

00:23:21   not radio transparent it bends scratch [TS]

00:23:25   ability if you're going to have a high [TS]

00:23:26   gloss finish they haven't sorted out or [TS]

00:23:28   whatever so anyway feel like during all [TS]

00:23:30   this time and where in this aluminum and [TS]

00:23:32   glass a chapel has to be looking for the [TS]

00:23:34   next thing is eventually presumably [TS]

00:23:35   they'll find it and when they do find it [TS]

00:23:38   there is going to be you know a long [TS]

00:23:41   ramp up into switching over i don't [TS]

00:23:44   think you know this thing points out of [TS]

00:23:46   it what are you saying about the time [TS]

00:23:47   required to manufactured I i don't think [TS]

00:23:50   they can use ceramic unless they solve [TS]

00:23:51   that problem exists time is one of the [TS]

00:23:53   problems they can't really fix right so [TS]

00:23:55   if they decided some kind of ceramic [TS]

00:23:58   combined with some other material like [TS]

00:24:00   ceramic he says the N ceramic at the [TS]

00:24:02   outside and or something else instead [TS]

00:24:03   they decided this was the thing because [TS]

00:24:05   it has more desirable qualities they [TS]

00:24:07   have to get it down to the point where [TS]

00:24:09   they can manufacture it as quickly and [TS]

00:24:11   easily as aluminum or within that [TS]

00:24:13   ballpark because they're not going to go [TS]

00:24:14   backwards by like a 2x4 10x [TS]

00:24:16   manufacturing time they just can't [TS]

00:24:18   sustain that I think is right that if [TS]

00:24:21   they [TS]

00:24:21   made that decision there's going to be [TS]

00:24:22   such a long lead time that be a wall [TS]

00:24:24   know about it but as discussed last week [TS]

00:24:27   like the next one's gonna be glass [TS]

00:24:28   glasses i think they already know about [TS]

00:24:29   their aid with the four in the forest [TS]

00:24:31   this glass in the current phones that [TS]

00:24:32   you know whatever [TS]

00:24:33   that's the rumor it's not a big change [TS]

00:24:35   they've done it before [TS]

00:24:36   it's a existing material if they were [TS]

00:24:39   going to do anything with ceramic and [TS]

00:24:41   the watch was a trial run [TS]

00:24:42   don't even think about it until like [TS]

00:24:44   after you have two rounds of this glass [TS]

00:24:46   down the the whatever and whatever asks [TS]

00:24:48   are you know actually I'm right now pick [TS]

00:24:50   up the phone the same and realize this [TS]

00:24:53   is not an S generation is actually the [TS]

00:24:56   seven even though it looks the same [TS]

00:24:57   success anyway we're all confused now [TS]

00:24:58   but yeah i still think that somewhere [TS]

00:25:01   out there in our future is apple's next [TS]

00:25:04   material i remember the liquid metal [TS]

00:25:06   rumors he mentions that as well they [TS]

00:25:07   bought that little better company and [TS]

00:25:08   they had known if they made the sim I [TS]

00:25:10   think they made the the same extractor [TS]

00:25:11   to live liquid metal not really a big [TS]

00:25:14   return on investment for that company [TS]

00:25:16   but I was another possibility can we can [TS]

00:25:18   we make can be like injection mold metal [TS]

00:25:21   and come out with a part that it has all [TS]

00:25:23   the fine details already on it because [TS]

00:25:24   it's liquid metal and it flows and it's [TS]

00:25:26   like plastic but you get me anyway none [TS]

00:25:29   of those things have one yet [TS]

00:25:31   I think the ceramic watch tells us that [TS]

00:25:33   of all the possible future materials [TS]

00:25:36   maybe ceramic had enough promise to say [TS]

00:25:38   well even if we've eliminated as a [TS]

00:25:41   possibility for our phone we can make a [TS]

00:25:43   cool watch out because this marker point [TS]

00:25:44   out that's not an unknown material on [TS]

00:25:46   the watch world and you know they can [TS]

00:25:48   give it a try but it the requirements [TS]

00:25:52   for a successor to aluminum on the phone [TS]

00:25:54   are pretty stringent and it could be [TS]

00:25:59   that we have to work we have to go [TS]

00:26:00   through a whole series of generations of [TS]

00:26:03   this glass phone before we even look at [TS]

00:26:05   you know carbon fiber or plastic that [TS]

00:26:08   doesn't look like plastic / l house [TS]

00:26:10   they're going to do so speaking of [TS]

00:26:11   phones have you made it to the apple [TS]

00:26:13   store it will recall i still have not [TS]

00:26:15   i'm so parenting again so like I just [TS]

00:26:19   haven't had time to be running around [TS]

00:26:21   going to stores i still not actually [TS]

00:26:22   made me up so i think i'm going to [TS]

00:26:24   eventually because my wife is finally [TS]

00:26:27   starting to look at like watches and [TS]

00:26:28   bands and stuff and complaining about [TS]

00:26:30   the combinations that she would like to [TS]

00:26:32   exist that don't complain about the [TS]

00:26:33   sport man colors that seemed not to [TS]

00:26:35   just anymore and so on anyway that [TS]

00:26:37   probably means I'm going to have an [TS]

00:26:39   apple store at some point with her [TS]

00:26:41   looking at watches and that's that was [TS]

00:26:43   probably will get me there to mess with [TS]

00:26:45   the phone [TS]

00:26:46   fair enough i'm curious to hear what you [TS]

00:26:48   think after you go and do it so my [TS]

00:26:51   coworker jamie has a jet-black i have a [TS]

00:26:54   matte black [TS]

00:26:55   every time I look at my map black i am [TS]

00:26:57   convinced that it is i think in my [TS]

00:27:00   personal estimation my favorite iphone [TS]

00:27:03   ever i just think it looks amazing and i [TS]

00:27:06   love it to death and then for some [TS]

00:27:08   reason or another all i'll grab Jamie's [TS]

00:27:11   phone and then I wish so badly that it [TS]

00:27:13   was even a half as tacky as sticky as [TS]

00:27:16   cheese filling because man that jet [TS]

00:27:19   black is so nice to hold I I i still [TS]

00:27:21   prefer the aesthetics of the mat but [TS]

00:27:23   gosh that jet black is so nice to hold [TS]

00:27:25   have you considered pine tar MIT the [TS]

00:27:27   pics right I'll tell you what you like [TS]

00:27:29   so you know now that another world few [TS]

00:27:31   weeks and like my jet black one you have [TS]

00:27:33   any time to look at the back [TS]

00:27:35   0i look this morning just like it was [TS]

00:27:37   like it was upside down on the bed i was [TS]

00:27:39   doing was getting dressed and i know [TS]

00:27:41   some like you know how does how does the [TS]

00:27:43   back look now after a few weeks of views [TS]

00:27:45   and I look and it's like there's like [TS]

00:27:46   three fingerprints on it but it's not [TS]

00:27:48   that bad and like I had and I hadn't [TS]

00:27:50   just been offering this is like like [TS]

00:27:51   organic discovery of the back of this [TS]

00:27:53   phone in the wild and like there was [TS]

00:27:56   there a few fingerprints on it and it's [TS]

00:27:58   fine and there's a few small scratches [TS]

00:27:59   that you can see in certain light and [TS]

00:28:01   they're fine too [TS]

00:28:02   it doesn't matter at all but every [TS]

00:28:04   single time I pick it up and hold it [TS]

00:28:05   which is constantly during the day I am [TS]

00:28:07   so glad it feels good as it does yeah [TS]

00:28:10   yeah I can understand that I don't know [TS]

00:28:12   it's it's a tough call I think to be [TS]

00:28:13   honest [TS]

00:28:14   jet black or or matte black it's kind of [TS]

00:28:17   a win-win [TS]

00:28:17   you mean because i think the jet-black [TS]

00:28:19   absolutely wins on uncomfort I think the [TS]

00:28:21   matte black wins on aesthetics [TS]

00:28:24   personally although it's a close call [TS]

00:28:25   so it's a win win no matter how you [TS]

00:28:27   slice it yeah i agree with that before [TS]

00:28:29   we move on from the material that your [TS]

00:28:31   phone is made of assuming the glass [TS]

00:28:33   rumors are true and they do the glass [TS]

00:28:34   thing what do you guys think is the most [TS]

00:28:37   likely successor material to aluminum [TS]

00:28:39   and glass kali like after that [TS]

00:28:43   yeah i got there after whatever this [TS]

00:28:44   next one is however long like the glass [TS]

00:28:46   error last assuming the rumors true like [TS]

00:28:48   it was because i have to think that [TS]

00:28:50   apple continues to look for the next [TS]

00:28:52   material and they will find it [TS]

00:28:54   eventually it's not going to be aluminum [TS]

00:28:56   and glass forever and ever [TS]

00:28:57   I don't think we can say for sure i'm [TS]

00:29:00   gonna times you but I don't think we can [TS]

00:29:01   say for sure that they necessarily have [TS]

00:29:04   to replace aluminum I mean there are [TS]

00:29:06   certain things in the world that just [TS]

00:29:08   ended up being made of certain materials [TS]

00:29:10   for a very very long time because that [TS]

00:29:12   makes sense for physical physical [TS]

00:29:14   characteristics or for manufacturing [TS]

00:29:16   ease or four cost or availability or [TS]

00:29:18   scale or whatever else but there are [TS]

00:29:20   certain things that always into being [TS]

00:29:21   made of that material like airplanes are [TS]

00:29:23   made of aluminum because there's lots of [TS]

00:29:25   reasons for that and like that's like [TS]

00:29:27   there's nothing saying that they're [TS]

00:29:28   gonna be good replacement for airplanes [TS]

00:29:30   unless there is pleased airplane Eric [TS]

00:29:31   don't tell me I just let me believe one [TS]

00:29:34   thing but there is like a very rare [TS]

00:29:36   plant example is a good one because for [TS]

00:29:38   a long time out brains were made of [TS]

00:29:40   metal until people started working [TS]

00:29:42   carbon fiber into airplanes into actual [TS]

00:29:44   airplanes that you know like a sold-out [TS]

00:29:46   it's not like they're all made of carbon [TS]

00:29:48   fiber now but that became a viable [TS]

00:29:50   material for important parts of [TS]

00:29:51   airplanes whereas it you know in the [TS]

00:29:53   beginning of our parents lives that [TS]

00:29:54   atmosphere than existing wasn't using [TS]

00:29:56   airplanes at all and aviation is really [TS]

00:29:58   slow to adopt new materials but slowly [TS]

00:30:01   but surely basically over the course of [TS]

00:30:02   our entire life suddenly carbon fiber is [TS]

00:30:05   part of the formula of making a plane I [TS]

00:30:08   think phones or less conservative in [TS]

00:30:10   airplanes and especially since you know [TS]

00:30:14   airplanes have the constraint that they [TS]

00:30:16   have to like transport something [TS]

00:30:19   otherwise why they even exist whether [TS]

00:30:20   it's people are cargo right but phones [TS]

00:30:22   that the form factor of a phone i mean [TS]

00:30:26   in some respects until it is sending [TS]

00:30:28   images you know into it directly into [TS]

00:30:29   our brain has to have something that we [TS]

00:30:31   can look at you know assuming we don't [TS]

00:30:33   go to classes or something but [TS]

00:30:34   everything else about it it's kind of up [TS]

00:30:36   for grabs like aluminum it you know if [TS]

00:30:40   if the electronics for a phone fit into [TS]

00:30:43   something the thickness of a credit card [TS]

00:30:46   aluminum is not the material for you [TS]

00:30:47   because once you have to think of a [TS]

00:30:49   credit card [TS]

00:30:50   you can't make that out of aluminum [TS]

00:30:51   anymore because it will Bend and stay [TS]

00:30:53   bet and so it's a non-starter period you [TS]

00:30:55   cannot do it out of a woman right so [TS]

00:30:58   if we get to that in our lifetime which [TS]

00:30:59   i think is reasonable will be old men [TS]

00:31:02   but you can keep making these things [TS]

00:31:03   that are in smaller than our in smaller [TS]

00:31:05   and lighter weight and new screen [TS]

00:31:07   technology and so on and so forth we can [TS]

00:31:09   get pretty thin and once they get to a [TS]

00:31:11   certain thickness you can't use aluminum [TS]

00:31:13   anymore so I and then you probably don't [TS]

00:31:16   want to use glass because it's just too [TS]

00:31:18   fragile so you have to go to a material [TS]

00:31:20   that's been denounced back and you [TS]

00:31:23   probably want to also go to something [TS]

00:31:24   that's lighter so I don't you know he [TS]

00:31:27   you but it's reasonable to say though [TS]

00:31:28   you could say in the next 20 years it's [TS]

00:31:30   a little glass that's it or just glass [TS]

00:31:32   and whatever a sandwich between it is [TS]

00:31:35   that what you're saying you can envision [TS]

00:31:36   anything in the next like 20 years or so [TS]

00:31:38   that's not aluminum glass or some [TS]

00:31:40   combination i mean i don't really know [TS]

00:31:41   enough about materials and the science [TS]

00:31:43   behind them and then the status of [TS]

00:31:45   current technologies like carbon fiber [TS]

00:31:47   is a great example we know that might be [TS]

00:31:48   it i don't know I I no carbon fiber is [TS]

00:31:51   right now it's it's not used in mass [TS]

00:31:54   quantities and a lot of places because [TS]

00:31:56   of various like newness and cost issues [TS]

00:31:58   and things like that but I don't know [TS]

00:32:00   about to know whether that's likely to [TS]

00:32:03   be overcome and in the next few years I [TS]

00:32:04   really don't know [TS]

00:32:05   carbon fiber I think would have many of [TS]

00:32:07   the same advantages of ceramic in that [TS]

00:32:10   way i assume its radio transparent i [TS]

00:32:13   assume it can be very thin and light and [TS]

00:32:15   strong based on the little I know about [TS]

00:32:17   it so it seems like it could be really [TS]

00:32:19   cool but I don't know if they can make [TS]

00:32:21   enough of it i mean if you think about [TS]

00:32:22   like where you might see it first [TS]

00:32:25   certainly the iphone is a very high [TS]

00:32:28   profit very high-profile prestigious [TS]

00:32:31   device but it wouldn't surprise me if [TS]

00:32:34   you saw carbon fiber first appearance [TS]

00:32:35   something lower volume that could maybe [TS]

00:32:37   sell for even more maybe a macbook pro [TS]

00:32:39   you know maybe you see a macbook pro you [TS]

00:32:42   know lid casing or bottom casing or [TS]

00:32:44   maybe even the entire case made of [TS]

00:32:46   carbon fiber I have no idea but that [TS]

00:32:49   would be a place where like you could [TS]

00:32:50   actually really use more of a weight [TS]

00:32:52   savings and you could charge more and [TS]

00:32:54   have more of a profit margin to kind of [TS]

00:32:55   cover the cost of it and you would need [TS]

00:32:57   to make as many of them as you would [TS]

00:32:59   make with the iphone so I I think [TS]

00:33:01   they're going to use something like [TS]

00:33:02   carbon fiber probably gonna see it first [TS]

00:33:04   somewhere else not then the phone but I [TS]

00:33:08   really have no idea [TS]

00:33:09   now [TS]

00:33:10   I was going to say carbon fiber as well [TS]

00:33:11   but I i'm not i am not confident in that [TS]

00:33:14   idea because I thought that carbon fiber [TS]

00:33:17   is just a nightmare to work with and [TS]

00:33:19   doesn't like splinter really badly if [TS]

00:33:21   you kinda or maybe I guess that's [TS]

00:33:23   fiberglass which I'm not recommending [TS]

00:33:24   I'm just saying I just thought it was a [TS]

00:33:26   nightmare to work with [TS]

00:33:27   I think carbon fiber does shatter the [TS]

00:33:29   lights and that one of the problems at [TS]

00:33:31   home maybe that's it [TS]

00:33:32   yeah did I mean it's an interesting [TS]

00:33:34   thought exercise for sure but i think [TS]

00:33:35   this is 3 blind men leading themselves [TS]

00:33:38   around in a circle [TS]

00:33:40   you know I I don't that like Marcus I [TS]

00:33:42   don't know anything about materials [TS]

00:33:44   really so i'm not sure what's even [TS]

00:33:45   reasonable what would you say John I [TS]

00:33:47   basically agree with all the things that [TS]

00:33:49   you touched on like everything exact [TS]

00:33:51   same thing is Margo in terms of like [TS]

00:33:53   that this was getting up with the credit [TS]

00:33:55   card type thing aluminum is great right [TS]

00:33:57   up to the point where you start reaching [TS]

00:33:58   a certain minimum thickness and then you [TS]

00:34:01   have the bending problem right because [TS]

00:34:03   aluminum is not all about springing back [TS]

00:34:05   and it its we have a good analogy in the [TS]

00:34:09   car industry where for many many years [TS]

00:34:12   cars were made of steel and then more [TS]

00:34:14   exotic cars incorporated aluminum parts [TS]

00:34:16   but you're weird and harder to [TS]

00:34:17   manufacture don't remember when we were [TS]

00:34:19   kids like I already had a little cars [TS]

00:34:20   and was like oh but those are a [TS]

00:34:21   nightmare to do bodywork on because [TS]

00:34:23   everyone knows how to do steel and [TS]

00:34:25   aluminum is harder to work with all [TS]

00:34:26   sorts of reasons that like making you [TS]

00:34:29   know mechanics and body repair people [TS]

00:34:30   will tell you that aluminum cars are [TS]

00:34:31   paying the but fast forward to today [TS]

00:34:34   aluminum is everywhere it is trickling [TS]

00:34:35   down the carline it's not just on exotic [TS]

00:34:38   supercars anymore [TS]

00:34:40   what's on exotic supercars these days [TS]

00:34:41   ago super-hard is essentially entirely [TS]

00:34:43   made out of carbon fiber like that the [TS]

00:34:44   Koenigsegg one has carbon rubber wheels [TS]

00:34:46   for crying out loud like and it's okay [TS]

00:34:49   let's find for carbon fiber for exotic [TS]

00:34:51   cars but carbon fiber just like aluminum [TS]

00:34:52   before I feel like will be trickling [TS]

00:34:54   down and like seven on cars very often [TS]

00:34:57   especially a very expensive fancy cars [TS]

00:34:59   it'll be aluminum and steel but on the [TS]

00:35:02   lightweight model they will replace [TS]

00:35:04   certain parts with carbon fiber very [TS]

00:35:07   often the roof the hood things that are [TS]

00:35:09   thin not really load-bearing but very [TS]

00:35:11   large like marketing with the back of [TS]

00:35:13   macro and I mean cars you're not [TS]

00:35:17   supposed to touch anything so they [TS]

00:35:18   should be bending but macbooks if they [TS]

00:35:21   make them really thin like think of the [TS]

00:35:22   current mac [TS]

00:35:23   that's starting to push the limits of [TS]

00:35:25   been doing this if you want to go much [TS]

00:35:27   thinner and you probably will be able to [TS]

00:35:28   considering like that the iphone is [TS]

00:35:30   probably faster than the current macbook [TS]

00:35:31   and the iphone is a really small that a [TS]

00:35:33   10 is really small [TS]

00:35:34   if you want to go much thinner and you [TS]

00:35:37   want to make a more lightweight version [TS]

00:35:39   of that that's more resilient making the [TS]

00:35:41   top case of a macbook pro active carbon [TS]

00:35:43   fiber starts to make sense and because [TS]

00:35:44   carbon fiber i think is inevitably going [TS]

00:35:46   to trickle down the automotive ladder in [TS]

00:35:49   our lifetime [TS]

00:35:49   it's just the way the industry goes [TS]

00:35:51   there will be an ever-increasing [TS]

00:35:53   expertise in dealing with and [TS]

00:35:55   manufacturing carbon fiber so that's [TS]

00:35:58   that's my number one pick for the [TS]

00:35:59   successor because things will get [TS]

00:36:01   thinner it has the advantage of radio [TS]

00:36:03   transparency is really light is really [TS]

00:36:05   strong the difficulty is that you can't [TS]

00:36:06   like machine fine details into it it's [TS]

00:36:08   more of a pain to deal with like hoping [TS]

00:36:12   that the rest of the manufacturing [TS]

00:36:14   industries starting with aviation [TS]

00:36:15   supercars and coming down to regular [TS]

00:36:17   cars or ever will will start to work out [TS]

00:36:19   the details of a carbon fiber [TS]

00:36:20   manufacturing process that makes it [TS]

00:36:22   viable in a way that it is not now that [TS]

00:36:24   makes it viable for manufacturing phones [TS]

00:36:28   all the charms carbon fiber is not ready [TS]

00:36:29   transparent so I don't know that's good [TS]

00:36:31   that maybe another thing that they can [TS]

00:36:33   tackle they could always just have [TS]

00:36:35   antennae lines smoothly etched into the [TS]

00:36:37   carbon fiber like they do with the [TS]

00:36:39   aluminum today anyway there we go [TS]

00:36:41   ceramic antenna lines that a [TS]

00:36:42   carbon-fiber plate [TS]

00:36:43   ya know ya know sometimes erratic is [TS]

00:36:46   ceramic the reason we're even talking [TS]

00:36:47   about that is because apple introduced [TS]

00:36:49   this really shiny phone the scratches [TS]

00:36:51   really easily i'm like oh well it would [TS]

00:36:52   be nice if it could be smooth but also [TS]

00:36:54   not scratchy and then that's how we get [TS]

00:36:56   the whole carbon fiber thing o carbon [TS]

00:36:57   fiber shatters and chips and so on and [TS]

00:36:59   so forth all these all these different [TS]

00:37:03   properties i feel like within the realm [TS]

00:37:05   of metals and ceramics and even plastic [TS]

00:37:07   that's my second pic by the way carbon [TS]

00:37:09   fiber is my exciting pick my boring pic [TS]

00:37:11   is as you get really really thin you [TS]

00:37:13   know what for something the size of a [TS]

00:37:15   phone not necessarily the size of a [TS]

00:37:17   laptop or something the size of a phone [TS]

00:37:18   maybe not the big phone plastic that has [TS]

00:37:22   a lot has a lot of desirable qualities [TS]

00:37:24   plastic we know all that plastic it [TS]

00:37:27   scratches more easily than the hard [TS]

00:37:28   metals it will shatter eventually but it [TS]

00:37:31   bends in springs back and can take a [TS]

00:37:33   beating [TS]

00:37:34   and you still got the problem of the [TS]

00:37:35   screen floating out there we haven't [TS]

00:37:36   even talked about mostly just talked [TS]

00:37:37   about the back of the thing i don't see [TS]

00:37:39   any anything other than glass for the [TS]

00:37:40   front of the thing until the whole thing [TS]

00:37:41   is Benny piece of plastic and then you [TS]

00:37:43   can have it be glass at all because the [TS]

00:37:45   whole thing is like a row you can roll [TS]

00:37:47   it up or whatever and you can't make [TS]

00:37:48   that out of class and then we just have [TS]

00:37:49   to accept that it's plastic and they're [TS]

00:37:52   so cheap that if you get scratched up [TS]

00:37:53   you just go to the apple store and they [TS]

00:37:56   give you a new one for 50 bucks or [TS]

00:37:57   something but will be dead then so don't [TS]

00:38:00   worry about it responds this week by [TS]

00:38:03   betterment investing made better go to [TS]

00:38:05   better mint.com / ATP to learn more [TS]

00:38:08   betterment has changed the investing [TS]

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00:38:19   advisors use with clients who have [TS]

00:38:21   millions of dollars and now to bring [TS]

00:38:23   that to you you might be hearing [TS]

00:38:25   betterment in the press such as the wall [TS]

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00:38:28   have covered them recently betterment is [TS]

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00:38:59   automatically rebalanced as needed [TS]

00:39:02   investing involves risk right now you [TS]

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00:39:07   learn more visit betterment calm / ATP [TS]

00:39:10   that's a better mint.com / ATP [TS]

00:39:13   betterment investing made better [TS]

00:39:19   there's been a brouhaha there's been a [TS]

00:39:22   kerfuffle there's been i'm out of [TS]

00:39:25   adjectives so there's been a thing and [TS]

00:39:27   apple and an independent developer are [TS]

00:39:31   kind-of sort-of duking it out and that's [TS]

00:39:33   not usually happy for anyone involved [TS]

00:39:37   and particularly for those watching from [TS]

00:39:38   the sidelines because oftentimes this [TS]

00:39:41   has pretty big implications on on your [TS]

00:39:44   own business so i'm trying to think that [TS]

00:39:48   there's so many angles to this story and [TS]

00:39:50   i'm i'm trying to figure out the best [TS]

00:39:52   way to summarize and we'll put links in [TS]

00:39:54   the show notes to MJ sighs summary post [TS]

00:39:57   there's two of them and they're really [TS]

00:39:59   good [TS]

00:39:59   Michael sighs but the super super quick [TS]

00:40:03   version and then we'll add details in a [TS]

00:40:05   moment is that this gentleman bog dan [TS]

00:40:10   and I don't have a blessing funny but [TS]

00:40:12   anyway uh pesco he had released many [TS]

00:40:14   apps may be but certainly in disputed [TS]

00:40:17   Lee was the author of an app called dash [TS]

00:40:19   which I actually haven't used which is [TS]

00:40:21   probably criminal because from [TS]

00:40:22   everything mr. now its from everything [TS]

00:40:24   i've ever heard it is phenomenal and I [TS]

00:40:26   don't say that sarcastically but to use [TS]

00:40:28   the built-in exco documentation like an [TS]

00:40:30   animal [TS]

00:40:30   no safari usually because I don't trust [TS]

00:40:33   the built-in stuff search abilities but [TS]

00:40:35   anyway I identical sucks but yeah so I i [TS]

00:40:39   will be the first to admit I'm missing [TS]

00:40:40   out on this and in again I'm not trying [TS]

00:40:43   to be sarcastic genuinely from [TS]

00:40:44   everything i've ever heard from anyone [TS]

00:40:46   who has ever touched dash it is [TS]

00:40:47   phenomenal [TS]

00:40:48   well all of a sudden his developer [TS]

00:40:51   account got shut down [TS]

00:40:52   maybe that's a little bit up for debate [TS]

00:40:54   but all of a sudden get shut down he [TS]

00:40:56   kind of tries to talk to apple doesn't [TS]

00:40:58   get a lot of information out of them [TS]

00:41:00   eventually starts posting about it's now [TS]

00:41:02   at people other independent developers [TS]

00:41:05   like Marco for example starting to say [TS]

00:41:06   hey this doesn't feel right what's going [TS]

00:41:08   on here [TS]

00:41:09   eventually he gets in contact with Apple [TS]

00:41:11   things seem to be making forward [TS]

00:41:14   progress then Apple goes to the press [TS]

00:41:17   and says well he's getting booted from [TS]

00:41:19   the app store because he's done some [TS]

00:41:21   really nice various stuff [TS]

00:41:23   meanwhile bogdan is thinking well I [TS]

00:41:26   thought we were still in the midst of a [TS]

00:41:27   dialogue what's going on here so then he [TS]

00:41:29   escalates [TS]

00:41:31   writes his own post again links will be [TS]

00:41:33   in the show notes I've writes his own [TS]

00:41:35   post that includes among other things a [TS]

00:41:37   roughly 10 minute phone call recording [TS]

00:41:39   of a 10-minute phone call between him [TS]

00:41:41   and an apple representative which i'm [TS]

00:41:45   not sure that was the most morally sound [TS]

00:41:48   choice but i can understand why I did it [TS]

00:41:50   and then since all this happened the [TS]

00:41:54   armchair archaeologists have been [TS]

00:41:57   digging into what's going on and whether [TS]

00:42:00   or not things are awry because it seems [TS]

00:42:04   to be that the disconnect is there were [TS]

00:42:07   two accounts that were linked in some [TS]

00:42:09   way shape or form the the method of that [TS]

00:42:12   Lincoln how end and how tenuous that [TS]

00:42:15   link was is up for debate but it seems [TS]

00:42:17   clear that there's absolutely a link [TS]

00:42:19   between two different developer accounts [TS]

00:42:21   and one of the accounts it seems like [TS]

00:42:25   everyone involved isn't debating that it [TS]

00:42:28   was involved in some kind of shady [TS]

00:42:30   practices trying to buy good reviews for [TS]

00:42:33   their own apps trying to put bad reviews [TS]

00:42:35   for competitors apps and just generally [TS]

00:42:38   being shady now bogdan's perspective is [TS]

00:42:41   hey I open that account for a relative [TS]

00:42:43   of mine i did it using my credit card [TS]

00:42:46   because in other countries having a [TS]

00:42:48   credit card isn't necessarily a given [TS]

00:42:50   like it's sort of is in America and [TS]

00:42:53   after that I walked away [TS]

00:42:55   they're the ones that are doing all this [TS]

00:42:56   nefarious terrible things i'm not i'm [TS]

00:42:59   getting i'm just collateral damage here [TS]

00:43:01   and that's not fair [TS]

00:43:02   so there was some back and forth like I [TS]

00:43:05   said between Apple and he Apple [TS]

00:43:07   apparently wanted him to write a blog [TS]

00:43:09   post saying basically hey apple just got [TS]

00:43:15   confused but we've straightened it out [TS]

00:43:17   it's all good now and then he allegedly [TS]

00:43:19   would have been allowed to get back in [TS]

00:43:22   the app store this is before he [TS]

00:43:23   escalated with the phone call and I [TS]

00:43:25   believe before Apple escalated by going [TS]

00:43:27   to the press [TS]

00:43:28   so there's a lot of other avenues here [TS]

00:43:31   the armchair archaeologists seem to have [TS]

00:43:33   found a lot of different ways that point [TS]

00:43:36   to all the shady apps actually having [TS]

00:43:38   been him as well and not some other [TS]

00:43:39   relative and we can go into that if need [TS]

00:43:42   be but this is one of those that you [TS]

00:43:45   nations where everyone seems wrong [TS]

00:43:47   everyone seems right and nobody's clear [TS]

00:43:49   what what the real story is which makes [TS]

00:43:52   it very interesting and many people [TS]

00:43:54   joked that maybe cereal season 3 will be [TS]

00:43:57   of help that but but but it's hard to [TS]

00:44:00   make heads or tails of it and and i'm [TS]

00:44:03   not sure if i had to choose sides who I [TS]

00:44:07   side with and I think the reality of the [TS]

00:44:09   situation is i kinda side with both [TS]

00:44:11   inside with neither all at once which i [TS]

00:44:13   know is kind of a cop-out but that's [TS]

00:44:14   really how I feel so let's start by [TS]

00:44:18   asking before we get into our opinions [TS]

00:44:19   about this is that a relatively ok [TS]

00:44:21   summary did I miss any really important [TS]

00:44:23   points [TS]

00:44:24   I think you got it i mean i think your [TS]

00:44:27   characterization of what Apple wanted [TS]

00:44:28   him to do in that blog post is is not [TS]

00:44:31   quite there but close enough [TS]

00:44:33   alright John any other thoughts going to [TS]

00:44:35   say that uh some of the it's it's not [TS]

00:44:39   clear [TS]

00:44:41   uh we have the rough timeline of events [TS]

00:44:43   from the outside but because Apple is so [TS]

00:44:46   tight-lipped about everything I i still [TS]

00:44:50   feel like we don't really have their [TS]

00:44:52   side of the story they're never going to [TS]

00:44:53   give it to us right so we it's kind of [TS]

00:44:55   like we have the black hole that is [TS]

00:44:56   apple and then we have a leak of their [TS]

00:44:59   private communications with this [TS]

00:45:00   recording and then we have the [TS]

00:45:03   discussion for the developer but apples [TS]

00:45:04   never apples not going to for instance [TS]

00:45:06   like it would you characterize your like [TS]

00:45:07   oh then Apple went to the press with [TS]

00:45:09   this thing that said this thing like we [TS]

00:45:11   have no idea if that statement was [TS]

00:45:14   written and distributed through the [TS]

00:45:16   bureaucracy before that call even took [TS]

00:45:18   place and apples not going to clarify [TS]

00:45:19   they're not going to go by the way you [TS]

00:45:21   may think you've heard this but really [TS]

00:45:22   actually this is that when I can't tell [TS]

00:45:23   if it's like not our business what goes [TS]

00:45:25   on inside their company and also i feel [TS]

00:45:27   like the the communication I the public [TS]

00:45:31   communications all the different sites [TS]

00:45:32   if you look at it [TS]

00:45:34   my recollection is that basically it [TS]

00:45:37   doesn't tell you the details to let you [TS]

00:45:38   know all the nuances that the developers [TS]

00:45:41   blog post went into but it also doesn't [TS]

00:45:45   say anything that is false from the [TS]

00:45:46   perspective of apple with their [TS]

00:45:48   terminology which will be sure we'll get [TS]

00:45:50   into later like from Apple's perspective [TS]

00:45:52   this is the real system this is these [TS]

00:45:53   are the set of rules they matched on [TS]

00:45:55   this particular set of behavior they [TS]

00:45:56   took this action [TS]

00:45:58   and that's what they're distributing an [TS]

00:46:00   apple is basically putting that out in [TS]

00:46:02   response to the original careful about [TS]

00:46:05   10 developers getting squished again and [TS]

00:46:08   so I would say that like it's difficult [TS]

00:46:10   to know is a difficult to know Apple [TS]

00:46:12   side of the story like we get the [TS]

00:46:13   developer side is a developer not only [TS]

00:46:15   is free to say whatever he wants to the [TS]

00:46:18   public but seems very willing to say and [TS]

00:46:20   do whatever feels like the public which [TS]

00:46:22   is fine but Apple is totally unwilling [TS]

00:46:24   to do that so I still feel like we are [TS]

00:46:26   all at a disadvantage on the outside in [TS]

00:46:28   terms of knowing what the real deal is [TS]

00:46:30   yeah i mean i-i think trying to figure [TS]

00:46:33   out all the details of what happened is [TS]

00:46:35   not productive for any of us possibly [TS]

00:46:38   even them because you know we weren't [TS]

00:46:41   there [TS]

00:46:41   these are private communications for the [TS]

00:46:43   most part we have seen very little of [TS]

00:46:45   them we don't really know this developer [TS]

00:46:48   well you know we use app but you know [TS]

00:46:50   none of us know him to know like for [TS]

00:46:53   sure you know how complete he's probably [TS]

00:46:55   being who knows you know it and we also [TS]

00:46:57   don't know if Apple's being complete and [TS]

00:46:59   truthful in their statements we have no [TS]

00:47:01   way to evaluate these these really you [TS]

00:47:03   know so all we can really do is is try [TS]

00:47:05   to judge this or first week we can just [TS]

00:47:07   ignore it which is one valid option I i [TS]

00:47:11   think are the the communities initial [TS]

00:47:13   reaction of hey this looks like a [TS]

00:47:15   mistake because this app you know before [TS]

00:47:17   we knew about the second account with [TS]

00:47:19   all the other crazy apps like this app [TS]

00:47:21   is really good and has lots of [TS]

00:47:23   legitimate five star reviews what need [TS]

00:47:26   would this person have to buy fake [TS]

00:47:28   reviews or to get suspended like it [TS]

00:47:30   seemed ridiculous and so we were all [TS]

00:47:32   yelling last week on Twitter [TS]

00:47:33   hey this doesn't look right can somebody [TS]

00:47:35   apple-like look into this again or [TS]

00:47:37   explain this like that was the main just [TS]

00:47:39   everyone's demand last week when it blew [TS]

00:47:40   up [TS]

00:47:41   well the the reason he was talking about [TS]

00:47:42   it all is because he made an initial [TS]

00:47:44   blog post read you might be wondering [TS]

00:47:46   what happened to the dash [TS]

00:47:48   here's the deal I'm not sure what's [TS]

00:47:49   going on but they said my account is [TS]

00:47:51   pulled and it's and I can appeal the [TS]

00:47:52   process like so that's how that's why we [TS]

00:47:54   knew about it at all because he went to [TS]

00:47:56   the public and said to explain why his [TS]

00:47:58   apps are certainly not available because [TS]

00:48:00   people use apples popular and that's it [TS]

00:48:04   I think the main thing I think we can [TS]

00:48:06   take away from this entire thing is how [TS]

00:48:08   the apple developer community [TS]

00:48:11   reacts to it like because reaction [TS]

00:48:14   doesn't happen in a vacuum so the [TS]

00:48:15   context of all the past history so when [TS]

00:48:17   we all collectively saw this story from [TS]

00:48:20   a developer and there was any other [TS]

00:48:21   reason we saw because we all do you know [TS]

00:48:22   where in the traveling developer circles [TS]

00:48:24   online and developer blogs and you know [TS]

00:48:26   anyway when we saw that because of the [TS]

00:48:29   past history of App Store rule [TS]

00:48:34   enforcement and policies that you know [TS]

00:48:37   that don't seem right to developers but [TS]

00:48:40   you know the history of conflict the [TS]

00:48:41   history of arbitrary decisions that [TS]

00:48:44   don't make any sense or that our [TS]

00:48:46   community of developers in ways that [TS]

00:48:48   shouldn't be or you know honest mistakes [TS]

00:48:50   or whatever that context is why we have [TS]

00:48:53   this reaction because it's not this this [TS]

00:48:55   event is not a thing this event just [TS]

00:48:57   highlights hey how does the apple [TS]

00:48:59   developer community feel about Apple and [TS]

00:49:01   the app store at this moment in time are [TS]

00:49:03   they inherently suspicious [TS]

00:49:05   do they give Apple the benefit of the [TS]

00:49:06   doubt that they give developers but i [TS]

00:49:08   like it so clearly showed that the [TS]

00:49:10   current context despite positive changes [TS]

00:49:12   is that we will all readily believe that [TS]

00:49:17   the giant faceless bureaucracy that is [TS]

00:49:20   the apple app store i can and does do [TS]

00:49:24   things that are you know it [TS]

00:49:26   best-case mistakes or worst case like [TS]

00:49:28   just wrongheaded decisions right so [TS]

00:49:30   that's that I feel like was at it you [TS]

00:49:32   know part of a tumor marker right is [TS]

00:49:33   that like this is a good app and we kind [TS]

00:49:35   of like you know do virtual transfer [TS]

00:49:38   like application good [TS]

00:49:39   therefore developer good which is not [TS]

00:49:40   valid transfer but you're like it just [TS]

00:49:43   didn't seem like if you've got a quality [TS]

00:49:45   of the people like that that you're [TS]

00:49:47   known for what reason do you have like [TS]

00:49:49   she'd interviews or anything before we [TS]

00:49:50   do that but like it just seemed like all [TS]

00:49:52   right and and but I really think the [TS]

00:49:54   most important thing is that the tablet [TS]

00:49:56   takeaway from this is that people's [TS]

00:49:58   developers still don't trust that we are [TS]

00:50:01   going to do the right thing and that [TS]

00:50:04   when they see anything that even looks [TS]

00:50:05   like one of those past situations where [TS]

00:50:08   we've been in the wrong or done [TS]

00:50:09   something that was not productive [TS]

00:50:10   they will immediately believe it so that [TS]

00:50:13   you know they'll know they have made [TS]

00:50:15   progress when a similar event happens [TS]

00:50:17   and the reaction from the developer [TS]

00:50:19   community is not immediate suspicion [TS]

00:50:21   that Apple has screwed a small developer [TS]

00:50:23   again [TS]

00:50:24   yeah and and i think at you know an [TS]

00:50:26   apples-to-apples credit though this [TS]

00:50:29   ability to totally terminate somebody's [TS]

00:50:31   developer account is probably used [TS]

00:50:34   everyday for lots of different [TS]

00:50:36   fraudulent accounts that are trying [TS]

00:50:38   their you know conducting fraud or spam [TS]

00:50:40   or scams or something that they probably [TS]

00:50:43   turn it turn a developer account every [TS]

00:50:45   day and I can't think I mean maybe I'm [TS]

00:50:47   wrong please let me know if i'm wrong i [TS]

00:50:50   can't remember a single previous [TS]

00:50:52   instance in the eight years of the app [TS]

00:50:53   store where it seemed like someone's [TS]

00:50:55   developer account was terminated wrongly [TS]

00:50:57   has that ever happened that we that we [TS]

00:50:58   learned about well I mean the equivalent [TS]

00:51:01   is like we're rejecting your update even [TS]

00:51:03   though you've gotta crash here for some [TS]

00:51:04   unknown reason the other didn't [TS]

00:51:06   terminate your developer account but but [TS]

00:51:07   effectively effectively it's the same [TS]

00:51:09   thing and noe i mean this is more severe [TS]

00:51:11   and this is what this is much more [TS]

00:51:13   severe it is but like see the reason the [TS]

00:51:15   reason I think you don't see people [TS]

00:51:16   complain about termination is because I [TS]

00:51:18   I think you're right the termination [TS]

00:51:19   happens all the time but it happens to [TS]

00:51:21   known bad actors and it's part of the [TS]

00:51:23   cost of doing business in on bad actress [TS]

00:51:24   bad actors get their countermand all [TS]

00:51:26   time there's open a new one like that's [TS]

00:51:28   their business is open up a new account [TS]

00:51:29   do something against the rules if as [TS]

00:51:32   long as you can when your account gets [TS]

00:51:33   closed open up another one like that's [TS]

00:51:35   that's their entire mo like that their [TS]

00:51:37   life's the life cycle of the fraudster [TS]

00:51:39   coming up star is right and so of course [TS]

00:51:41   they're not going to complain about it [TS]

00:51:42   why would think that's just like how the [TS]

00:51:44   system works from their perspective so I [TS]

00:51:47   think this is just a you know that all [TS]

00:51:49   the the legitimate developers have the [TS]

00:51:51   review problems or whatever they'll get [TS]

00:51:53   shut down this looks like a cross over [TS]

00:51:55   those two worlds the rolled over there [TS]

00:51:57   were no one ever complains but everyone [TS]

00:51:58   knows you're going to shut down like a [TS]

00:51:59   week or two but sometimes it's slow bad [TS]

00:52:01   you can make a lot of money in the [TS]

00:52:02   meantime and then this world over here [TS]

00:52:04   where it's like historically sometimes [TS]

00:52:07   apple rejected legitimate application [TS]

00:52:08   and be frustrating or whatever but [TS]

00:52:09   eventually you'll get through it except [TS]

00:52:12   for the people who are like you know [TS]

00:52:13   after this type are no longer allowed [TS]

00:52:15   period they just have to stop [TS]

00:52:16   development that's also very similar in [TS]

00:52:18   terms like oh we don't want to make [TS]

00:52:19   launch wraps for a couple years or but I [TS]

00:52:21   don't know that's a good example that [TS]

00:52:22   that where Apple categorically decides [TS]

00:52:24   that this type of application is allowed [TS]

00:52:26   anymore even though we have previously [TS]

00:52:27   allowed it but this is like crossing [TS]

00:52:29   over of and because and it's not that [TS]

00:52:32   much of a crossover because there is [TS]

00:52:33   like you said everyone agrees there's [TS]

00:52:34   some kind of fraudulent activity on [TS]

00:52:36   account [TS]

00:52:37   where the argument is whether that [TS]

00:52:40   fraudulent activity should meet this [TS]

00:52:41   other account gets closed right so this [TS]

00:52:43   is the meeting of those worlds [TS]

00:52:45   the only question is is that meeting you [TS]

00:52:49   know is it legitimate to do collective [TS]

00:52:51   punishment because the accounts use the [TS]

00:52:53   same test devices in the same credit [TS]

00:52:54   card number which from a perspective is [TS]

00:52:56   the only way they have to tell they [TS]

00:52:57   can't see what's inside the computer [TS]

00:52:58   right so that you can get that all they [TS]

00:53:00   have this data and their data says same [TS]

00:53:02   test devices same credit card number [TS]

00:53:04   same legal entity and you know from a [TS]

00:53:07   legal perspective like not from a [TS]

00:53:09   practical perspective from a legal [TS]

00:53:11   perspective like that's how the Apple ID [TS]

00:53:13   system works that's how developer thing [TS]

00:53:15   works there they want information about [TS]

00:53:17   you to connect to it is essentially to [TS]

00:53:19   connect to entity that they can sue or [TS]

00:53:21   that is legally represented writing so [TS]

00:53:23   if you if you use all the same [TS]

00:53:26   information they used to establish what [TS]

00:53:29   the entity is for multiple accounts it's [TS]

00:53:31   all the same entity like that's the [TS]

00:53:32   whole point of you doing this like Marco [TS]

00:53:34   has multiple attention multiple things [TS]

00:53:36   for your various yeah like right and but [TS]

00:53:40   that's like it if they were all come you [TS]

00:53:42   know separate or combined like that's [TS]

00:53:45   how things work in the business world we [TS]

00:53:47   don't care what physical person is [TS]

00:53:49   sitting for another thing they just care [TS]

00:53:50   what the legal entity is and where the [TS]

00:53:51   liability lives right now the more human [TS]

00:53:54   side of it is what if you do live in a [TS]

00:53:56   country where it's not easy credit cards [TS]

00:53:58   and you do a favor for somebody and you [TS]

00:54:00   you're not a lawyer and not thinking [TS]

00:54:02   about the fact that now you essentially [TS]

00:54:03   are legally vouching for the activities [TS]

00:54:05   of this other account right i think [TS]

00:54:07   apple would be entirely in the right [TS]

00:54:08   then probably totally in there legally [TS]

00:54:09   somewhere that says hey if you use all [TS]

00:54:12   the same legal and contact information [TS]

00:54:14   from multiple accounts you are legally [TS]

00:54:17   responsible like you know that's you [TS]

00:54:20   essentially absorb the liability for the [TS]

00:54:22   other person is if you started a company [TS]

00:54:24   and then you know your friend came in [TS]

00:54:27   and wrote all the code but then you [TS]

00:54:28   published it as the legal entity you're [TS]

00:54:30   legally responsible your friends like [TS]

00:54:31   all I didn't write all the code he did [TS]

00:54:33   like doesn't matter that's not how the [TS]

00:54:34   law works right for the most part of my [TS]

00:54:36   wire that and so in this situation Apple [TS]

00:54:40   probably could have just said these are [TS]

00:54:43   the rules [TS]

00:54:44   this is the data is irrefutable you [TS]

00:54:46   don't argue it [TS]

00:54:47   you know we all agree on the facts here [TS]

00:54:49   and so therefore your account is closed [TS]

00:54:51   but it's not what Apple did what Apple [TS]

00:54:54   did instead is tried to communicate with [TS]

00:54:57   this developer to work things out [TS]

00:54:59   because there and that is the next [TS]

00:55:01   question [TS]

00:55:01   alright so the app works with developers [TS]

00:55:03   I work things out [TS]

00:55:05   does do all of us here in the peanut [TS]

00:55:06   gallery and apple developer community do [TS]

00:55:09   we immediately suspect that the only [TS]

00:55:11   reason they were working out is because [TS]

00:55:12   this person made a blog post that this [TS]

00:55:15   happened beforehand so here's well [TS]

00:55:16   here's what happened and this is I i [TS]

00:55:19   think if i can look at this whole [TS]

00:55:20   situation if I can point to 22 things [TS]

00:55:23   that i would say we're like bad moves i [TS]

00:55:26   think one it was apple bad move and one [TS]

00:55:29   was the developers bad move the apples [TS]

00:55:31   bad move was when they first started [TS]

00:55:33   detecting all of this fraud on the other [TS]

00:55:35   account they did consider the fraud [TS]

00:55:38   account and the dash account to be [TS]

00:55:40   logically link because they both were [TS]

00:55:42   made by the same credit card and they [TS]

00:55:44   both they both use some of the same test [TS]

00:55:45   devices so they considered that enough [TS]

00:55:47   of a correlation to consider them [TS]

00:55:49   logically linked and and I think that [TS]

00:55:51   that alone right there considering [TS]

00:55:53   account an account logically link for [TS]

00:55:54   the purpose of fraud detection based on [TS]

00:55:56   the same credit card being used and the [TS]

00:55:57   same device being used i think that's a [TS]

00:55:59   reasonable assumption i think Apple was [TS]

00:56:01   totally fine to do that the error that [TS]

00:56:03   Apple made that i would say was probably [TS]

00:56:05   the the one big big mistake that is [TS]

00:56:08   apple's fault in the way this was [TS]

00:56:10   handled is that when Apple detected the [TS]

00:56:13   fraud on the other account they only [TS]

00:56:16   contacted that account email address to [TS]

00:56:20   talk about and try to fix the fraud [TS]

00:56:22   issue and only they said when they were [TS]

00:56:24   like issuing the warnings basically the [TS]

00:56:25   only contacted the fraud one not the [TS]

00:56:28   other one that was logically link to it [TS]

00:56:30   but why do you think that's a mistake [TS]

00:56:31   like you think it's a mistake because it [TS]

00:56:33   seems like unfair or whatever but I [TS]

00:56:34   think like from you know policy-wise i [TS]

00:56:38   think it is a reasonable policy to have [TS]

00:56:39   that you know the the like who was [TS]

00:56:44   responsible for the actions of the [TS]

00:56:45   account well the responsibility of [TS]

00:56:47   accidents account ties back to whatever [TS]

00:56:49   legal entity you know as we define it as [TS]

00:56:52   the information you enter when you make [TS]

00:56:53   your Apple ID right if that's their [TS]

00:56:55   policy and then they see fraudulent [TS]

00:56:58   activity and then they also policy that [TS]

00:57:00   says that this fraudulent Act [TS]

00:57:01   any uh all of the accounts that are tied [TS]

00:57:04   to that same legal entity gets shut down [TS]

00:57:06   i don't see anywhere where there's any [TS]

00:57:08   specific need to carefully communicate [TS]

00:57:11   with each one of them to give each one [TS]

00:57:12   of the the connected legal entities a [TS]

00:57:14   chance to explain or something that is a [TS]

00:57:16   nice thing to do and we all think they [TS]

00:57:18   should do it in this case but [TS]

00:57:19   policy-wise like you know as many people [TS]

00:57:23   pointed out if you get shut down my like [TS]

00:57:25   people paypal or ebay or anything like [TS]

00:57:27   that like no one's going to give you a [TS]

00:57:29   nice phone call ask you to like explain [TS]

00:57:30   yourself to them or whatever to make [TS]

00:57:32   sure everyone gets a separate [TS]

00:57:33   communication in case they're separate [TS]

00:57:34   people and so like it's it's asking [TS]

00:57:37   Apple to foresee the situation as [TS]

00:57:40   described by the developer that actually [TS]

00:57:42   was two different people and we were [TS]

00:57:43   sharing credit card and I had no idea [TS]

00:57:44   what was going on this count for years [TS]

00:57:45   and so on and so forth are like I think [TS]

00:57:48   it is a reasonable policy for a business [TS]

00:57:50   to say this is just how the rules work [TS]

00:57:52   if you don't like it you you developer [TS]

00:57:54   have made a mistake by legally vouching [TS]

00:57:56   for a someone again you have no idea [TS]

00:57:58   what they're doing their they're [TS]

00:57:59   committing fraud over years you have no [TS]

00:58:01   idea about it that's your bad that's not [TS]

00:58:02   our bed we can just shut them all down [TS]

00:58:03   right now and i was getting back to what [TS]

00:58:06   we thought about this when we heard [TS]

00:58:08   about it is like why why is someone on [TS]

00:58:10   the phone because we heard the phone [TS]

00:58:11   call that you know that he put my why [TS]

00:58:13   someone on the phone trying to work it [TS]

00:58:15   out with this person is it because [TS]

00:58:16   mostly because you know it like do we [TS]

00:58:19   think it's because this is a popular [TS]

00:58:20   developer and it's a developer was [TS]

00:58:23   popular with other developers because [TS]

00:58:24   they make a developer tool right [TS]

00:58:26   is that why someone from apple is [TS]

00:58:28   bending over backwards because you know [TS]

00:58:32   what makes this one different verses if [TS]

00:58:34   this had just been one of those you know [TS]

00:58:37   fraud developers who got their account [TS]

00:58:39   close to everything apple and all those [TS]

00:58:40   cases for fraud is on the phone with [TS]

00:58:42   each one of them saying oh let me hear [TS]

00:58:43   what you say about all will try to get [TS]

00:58:45   your account back I don't think that's [TS]

00:58:46   happening and the reason we think that [TS]

00:58:48   is part of the anger of like the old app [TS]

00:58:50   review guidelines that were like never [TS]

00:58:52   run to the press that doesn't help you [TS]

00:58:53   know remember that old one that I think [TS]

00:58:54   they removed and yeah it's gone [TS]

00:58:56   the guidelines that was Steve Jobs style [TS]

00:58:58   snarky we don't like it when you [TS]

00:59:00   badmouth us in public type of thing [TS]

00:59:02   that's where the root of all this is [TS]

00:59:04   coming from the risk of like when we see [TS]

00:59:06   this at least me specifically when i see [TS]

00:59:08   this i think apple is bending over [TS]

00:59:11   backwards a because they're trying to be [TS]

00:59:12   nice [TS]

00:59:13   would be a little bit because this [TS]

00:59:16   person made a blog post and presented [TS]

00:59:18   their side of the story and apple feels [TS]

00:59:20   like this is you know they don't like [TS]

00:59:22   looking bad they don't look like they [TS]

00:59:24   don't want to be the bad guy but in [TS]

00:59:26   cases where they do something like close [TS]

00:59:28   an account and they just never hear [TS]

00:59:29   anything about it nobody blogs Apple you [TS]

00:59:31   know feel okay about like I guess we [TS]

00:59:33   weren't the bag i feel like the removing [TS]

00:59:35   of don't run to the press is removed [TS]

00:59:36   partly because it recognizes that like [TS]

00:59:38   that's the only way Apple has to tell [TS]

00:59:40   whether something they've done might've [TS]

00:59:44   been inadvertently meaner than they [TS]

00:59:46   would want to be right [TS]

00:59:48   the only way they can tell is if there's [TS]

00:59:49   public outcry you know because they're [TS]

00:59:51   not they don't know every single [TS]

00:59:52   developer whatever like he can't ask the [TS]

00:59:54   entire infrastructure an apple to know [TS]

00:59:57   every single happen to know what [TS]

00:59:57   every single happen to know what [TS]

01:00:00   dashes and how popular it is and this is [TS]

01:00:01   a good person I can't do that forever is [TS]

01:00:03   too much right and so I think this [TS]

01:00:05   signal the public outcry and complaining [TS]

01:00:08   on Twitter and other developers looking [TS]

01:00:10   at a scan something maybe something [TS]

01:00:12   reader is actually an important feature [TS]

01:00:14   of the system as it currently exists [TS]

01:00:16   quote-unquote working and I'm glad that [TS]

01:00:18   guideline was removed by saying don't [TS]

01:00:20   want to the press because i think it's [TS]

01:00:21   essential part of the process at this [TS]

01:00:22   point [TS]

01:00:23   yeah unfortunately it is but anyway so [TS]

01:00:26   so bad back to what happened here [TS]

01:00:29   I honestly don't spend a whole lot of [TS]

01:00:30   time on this because i think it's not [TS]

01:00:31   very productive so I i think we can [TS]

01:00:34   summarize basically you know I think [TS]

01:00:36   Apple I disagree with you on on like on [TS]

01:00:39   them notifying multiple accounts and I [TS]

01:00:42   think if they're going to shut down an [TS]

01:00:43   account which is a severe action they [TS]

01:00:45   should notify it beforehand and so that [TS]

01:00:48   after determination and the first round [TS]

01:00:51   blog post somebody from Apple called the [TS]

01:00:54   developer and developer recorded this [TS]

01:00:56   which in California is illegal [TS]

01:00:58   the developers in Romania where it's [TS]

01:00:59   legal the gist of it was that the the [TS]

01:01:03   apple guy was trying very hard to work [TS]

01:01:05   this out you can tell that they wanted [TS]

01:01:06   to work this out you know Apple want to [TS]

01:01:08   make sure that that the correct story in [TS]

01:01:11   their opinion was told they suggested [TS]

01:01:14   maybe he could write a blog post and [TS]

01:01:16   they they basically wanted two key facts [TS]

01:01:20   to be in the blog post these accounts [TS]

01:01:22   are linked so Apple was not mistaken to [TS]

01:01:24   suspend it there was fraudulent account [TS]

01:01:26   and he was working with Apple to unlink [TS]

01:01:29   the accounts and get back on the app [TS]

01:01:31   store and they went over this back and [TS]

01:01:33   forth a few times and it sounded like [TS]

01:01:34   the developer was not very happy about [TS]

01:01:37   the the freezing of this about the part [TS]

01:01:39   that Apple didn't make a mistake and [TS]

01:01:41   then he says he submitted this this [TS]

01:01:43   draft post which later poster's website [TS]

01:01:44   he said he submitted that to them you [TS]

01:01:47   could tell on the call though that again [TS]

01:01:49   they were he was there was definitely [TS]

01:01:50   friction he definitely did not seem [TS]

01:01:52   happy about what he what he was being [TS]

01:01:55   asked to to agree to and then a few days [TS]

01:01:57   later Apple tells the press this was [TS]

01:02:00   indeed justified there was lots of fun [TS]

01:02:02   this account we tried to work it out [TS]

01:02:04   with the developer but couldn't reach a [TS]

01:02:05   resolution and that's it [TS]

01:02:07   and so I think if you can if you kind of [TS]

01:02:10   try to like connect the dots between [TS]

01:02:12   those two [TS]

01:02:13   things it seems like he had apple [TS]

01:02:16   couldn't agree on what almost what he [TS]

01:02:18   was going to how he was going to prevent [TS]

01:02:20   these these facts of the case or how is [TS]

01:02:22   going to work things it seems like Apple [TS]

01:02:24   most likely got whatever he submitted to [TS]

01:02:27   them decided this was not going to be [TS]

01:02:30   resolvable or was not basically decided [TS]

01:02:32   negotiations were over and this was not [TS]

01:02:35   going to work out and then the statement [TS]

01:02:36   to the press is basically they're [TS]

01:02:37   shutting the door you know we're only [TS]

01:02:39   hearing part of a phone call [TS]

01:02:41   we're not hearing was before or after [TS]

01:02:42   this part of the call were not part of [TS]

01:02:45   we don't know anything communication [TS]

01:02:46   happens separately from this call so [TS]

01:02:48   things could have been more tense and [TS]

01:02:50   hostile than what's shown here and [TS]

01:02:53   what's shown there is slightly tense and [TS]

01:02:55   hospital from the developer so I don't [TS]

01:02:58   know if Apple was in the right or wrong [TS]

01:03:00   to close the door on this when they did [TS]

01:03:03   but that certainly seems like that is [TS]

01:03:06   what happened and based on the the two [TS]

01:03:09   conflicting attitudes in the phone call [TS]

01:03:11   I think that's very likely the case that [TS]

01:03:15   that you know they just decided this was [TS]

01:03:16   not going to resolved that you know they [TS]

01:03:18   were they were not gonna reach agreement [TS]

01:03:19   and and they were gonna eat because from [TS]

01:03:22   a point of view they want to make sure [TS]

01:03:24   that they control the narrative here [TS]

01:03:25   it's very it was very clear from from [TS]

01:03:27   that recorder call from the apple rep on [TS]

01:03:28   that call like Apple wanted to make very [TS]

01:03:31   sure that everyone knew that they didn't [TS]

01:03:32   just like slip-up and suspend an [TS]

01:03:35   innocent account that there was fraud [TS]

01:03:37   that was linked to this account and so [TS]

01:03:40   they wanted to make very clear that was [TS]

01:03:43   the story that got out that the facts [TS]

01:03:45   are very clear [TS]

01:03:46   Apple did not just mess up because that [TS]

01:03:48   would be really bad if they just messed [TS]

01:03:51   up and suspended an account that had no [TS]

01:03:53   connection any problems whatsoever and [TS]

01:03:54   like because that is a very severe [TS]

01:03:56   action and clearly running the app store [TS]

01:03:58   in eight years and this is the first [TS]

01:03:59   time we're hearing of a bad developer [TS]

01:04:01   account suspension clearly they do a [TS]

01:04:03   pretty good job and they're pretty [TS]

01:04:04   careful most of time with when taking [TS]

01:04:06   that action so they clearly wanted to [TS]

01:04:08   make sure that fact was out there that [TS]

01:04:10   that there was indeed real fraud [TS]

01:04:13   it was indeed linked to this account and [TS]

01:04:15   that basically that they were going to [TS]

01:04:17   unlink the accounts and not this [TS]

01:04:19   development forward so I think they were [TS]

01:04:22   actually being very reasonable there and [TS]

01:04:24   through whatever reason whether it was [TS]

01:04:27   education or attitudes or whatever it [TS]

01:04:29   was they couldn't work it out and and [TS]

01:04:31   that sux and there was a good post today [TS]

01:04:33   on their neighbors here I think I'm or [TS]

01:04:36   that was basically like how do we move [TS]

01:04:38   forward from here and the gist of it was [TS]

01:04:42   basically like look we all know the [TS]

01:04:43   facts now like let's just like Apple [TS]

01:04:46   should just reactivate hit you know the [TS]

01:04:48   good account just reactivate that [TS]

01:04:49   account like that's how we move forward [TS]

01:04:50   is like everyone basically suck it up [TS]

01:04:53   talking about just reactivate the [TS]

01:04:54   account because that's best for [TS]

01:04:55   everybody because like the other side of [TS]

01:04:56   this is like you know this is a great [TS]

01:04:58   app at a store for this reason that [TS]

01:05:00   probably shouldn't have happened [TS]

01:05:02   you know it or at least like like this [TS]

01:05:04   app in this account probably didn't [TS]

01:05:06   deserve it assuming the developer tell [TS]

01:05:08   the truth in this was some relative and [TS]

01:05:09   not just like him with a different [TS]

01:05:11   account you know [TS]

01:05:12   and secondly this really sucks for the [TS]

01:05:14   customers of this app because if you [TS]

01:05:15   bought this app like i did in the mac [TS]

01:05:16   app store you can even redownloaded like [TS]

01:05:19   when the developer account suspended the [TS]

01:05:21   app is gone it doesn't show up in your [TS]

01:05:23   purchases tab it doesn't show up in [TS]

01:05:25   searches it is gone you can't redownload [TS]

01:05:27   it and that sucks if you bought it so it [TS]

01:05:31   does kind of suck the way the way things [TS]

01:05:32   are left now even though I can look back [TS]

01:05:35   at at what Apple did and I think Apple [TS]

01:05:38   was in the right based on just the [TS]

01:05:41   little bit that we can that we can know [TS]

01:05:43   and and the little bits and pieces that [TS]

01:05:45   you can pick up i think Apple did pretty [TS]

01:05:47   much the right thing the whole way [TS]

01:05:48   through here with the exception of like [TS]

01:05:50   not only not notifying all the accounts [TS]

01:05:52   for termination but besides that I think [TS]

01:05:54   apples in the right and they seem to [TS]

01:05:55   handle it very well and they seem to put [TS]

01:05:57   in way more effort i mean like the kind [TS]

01:06:00   of was saying that Phil Schiller was [TS]

01:06:01   personally involved in trying to get [TS]

01:06:03   this sub like and I believe that like [TS]

01:06:04   knowing the way these things work i [TS]

01:06:05   believe that and select the fact that [TS]

01:06:08   you could have some Lakes like phil [TS]

01:06:09   schiller trying to get this fixed and [TS]

01:06:11   apple dividing this way that they can [TS]

01:06:13   resolve this get back in the store and [TS]

01:06:15   presenting it to the developer that that [TS]

01:06:16   sounded very reasonable [TS]

01:06:18   it really did seem like Apple was going [TS]

01:06:20   above and beyond try to fix this and [TS]

01:06:22   they really didn't need to this like [TS]

01:06:24   it's nice that they did and i hope that [TS]

01:06:26   if I ever on the wrong end of this I [TS]

01:06:27   hope that I hope that the same thing for [TS]

01:06:28   me but it's really really above and [TS]

01:06:31   beyond they didn't have to do this they [TS]

01:06:32   didn't have to get this guy away back in [TS]

01:06:34   they didn't have to call him and and [TS]

01:06:36   offer the this kind of you know this [TS]

01:06:38   kind of like olive branch there look [TS]

01:06:40   if we if you can just agree these few [TS]

01:06:41   statements then we can get back in the [TS]

01:06:43   day they didn't do any of that and they [TS]

01:06:45   did it all they really obviously wanted [TS]

01:06:47   to solve this in a in a decent way and [TS]

01:06:50   again through whatever reason they could [TS]

01:06:52   not reach agreement with the developer [TS]

01:06:54   on something that I think honestly the [TS]

01:06:58   developer made a huge mistake and the [TS]

01:06:59   way that he handled that I think he [TS]

01:07:01   should have just said they wanted to say [TS]

01:07:02   because it wasn't it wasn't bad or [TS]

01:07:05   incorrect so from outside of this again [TS]

01:07:07   looking like when we all heard the story [TS]

01:07:09   what do we all think of what does that [TS]

01:07:10   say about how we view apple now sort of [TS]

01:07:13   at the conclusion of this I i think [TS]

01:07:16   apple kind of got a positive results [TS]

01:07:22   here like because in the beginning were [TS]

01:07:23   all I go apples doing something bad in [TS]

01:07:26   the app store again and we've seen that [TS]

01:07:27   story so many times and were immediately [TS]

01:07:28   suspicious right by the end of it [TS]

01:07:30   especially for any developer who is [TS]

01:07:33   paying enough attention to like read all [TS]

01:07:34   the details that we just discussed and [TS]

01:07:35   read the blog post by the end of it I [TS]

01:07:37   think most legitimate developers come [TS]

01:07:40   away thinking if this happens to me it [TS]

01:07:44   seems like Apple will give me a [TS]

01:07:47   legitimate chance because I first of all [TS]

01:07:49   I think most developers understand uh I [TS]

01:07:53   that the developer made a mistake here [TS]

01:07:56   like not a mistake like that essentially [TS]

01:07:58   by by by tying himself legally to the [TS]

01:08:01   other account he is he is essentially [TS]

01:08:03   responsible for right and I'm hoping [TS]

01:08:06   that most developers would understand [TS]

01:08:07   that like that if you use your credit [TS]

01:08:10   card number and your test device maybe [TS]

01:08:11   that's not obvious to anybody but after [TS]

01:08:13   the story i guess it is so maybe before [TS]

01:08:14   the story you could say no but now [TS]

01:08:15   understanding like you know you see that [TS]

01:08:18   they were tied to that and you despite [TS]

01:08:19   that Apple made an effort to to try to [TS]

01:08:24   make things right and i think that whole [TS]

01:08:27   thing is comforting to developers should [TS]

01:08:29   feel like you know developer the gym [TS]

01:08:31   developers who would never do anything [TS]

01:08:32   wrong like that they're like if i find [TS]

01:08:34   myself in a situation where I have you [TS]

01:08:37   know unintentionally got myself in [TS]

01:08:38   Tangled away their idea either i didn't [TS]

01:08:40   understand or trusted somebody that [TS]

01:08:42   you've never trusted but you know this [TS]

01:08:43   happens to everybody right [TS]

01:08:44   will I just be sol or will i be able to [TS]

01:08:49   will Apple be reasonable with [TS]

01:08:51   and the only with the exception of the [TS]

01:08:53   fact that it's not clear that apple [TS]

01:08:55   would have been engaged at all if he [TS]

01:08:57   hadn't court run to the press which [TS]

01:08:59   really just means put a post on his own [TS]

01:09:01   personal blog and have a popular app [TS]

01:09:02   like with the exception of that well I [TS]

01:09:04   still think it's a concern like hey what [TS]

01:09:05   about my scrap nobody loves my up like [TS]

01:09:07   they love dash my post on my blog no one [TS]

01:09:09   will even notice [TS]

01:09:10   maybe i would still be sol right but [TS]

01:09:13   with the exception of that caveat I [TS]

01:09:14   think apples actions are essentially [TS]

01:09:16   reassuring legitimate developers that [TS]

01:09:19   apple will try to be reasonable [TS]

01:09:22   yeah Marco says like if if the gold this [TS]

01:09:26   developer was to be able to continue his [TS]

01:09:29   business his business of selling [TS]

01:09:31   software as popular application he made [TS]

01:09:33   bad choices you can imagine you can [TS]

01:09:36   decide do you do you want to be right [TS]

01:09:37   and be like righteous and be like I [TS]

01:09:39   refuse to admit to even any kind of [TS]

01:09:42   wrongdoing or being linked or you know [TS]

01:09:43   apples beyond for or do you just want [TS]

01:09:45   your account back because they weren't [TS]

01:09:46   asking him to say anything that's not [TS]

01:09:48   true they weren't asking him to take [TS]

01:09:49   blame for anything he doesn't blame for [TS]

01:09:51   they were a hundred percent believing a [TS]

01:09:53   story taking it at face value sign okay [TS]

01:09:55   great you gave an account somebody else [TS]

01:09:57   or whatever we're going to get your [TS]

01:09:59   account back all you all we want you to [TS]

01:10:01   do is to make it clear like Marco said [TS]

01:10:02   that the facts of the situation where [TS]

01:10:05   would they were there was a reason for [TS]

01:10:07   Apple to do what it did and that [TS]

01:10:09   everyone involved like not to make it [TS]

01:10:11   seem like album made a terrible mistake [TS]

01:10:12   but we all work it out and then have [TS]

01:10:14   apple come out of there isn't much I can [TS]

01:10:15   think is totally reasonable and he just [TS]

01:10:17   he made bad choices of his goal was to [TS]

01:10:19   get this business back he he could have [TS]

01:10:21   gotten it back doing things that are [TS]

01:10:23   reasonable telling the truth [TS]

01:10:25   they're allowing him to write whatever [TS]

01:10:27   he wanted as long as he hit those two [TS]

01:10:28   key points which everybody involved in [TS]

01:10:30   the conversation agree on and he didn't [TS]

01:10:31   do it did not do it because he was just [TS]

01:10:33   too proud or stubborn or thought it was [TS]

01:10:36   he would end up you know coming out of [TS]

01:10:38   it looking bad or whatever [TS]

01:10:40   who knows but like if his goal was to [TS]

01:10:41   get this business back he blew it but i [TS]

01:10:43   still think like outside of this that [TS]

01:10:46   most development maybe you know Marco [TS]

01:10:47   can answer is obviously the only you [TS]

01:10:49   know one with a application on the app [TS]

01:10:51   store of any significance [TS]

01:10:52   that's specifically tied to him and has [TS]

01:10:54   a lot of experience do you feel [TS]

01:10:55   reassured by the outcome of this that [TS]

01:10:58   apple would be reasonable if you found [TS]

01:11:01   yourself and in this situation or is a [TS]

01:11:03   neutral or do you feel worse that like [TS]

01:11:05   it that you know that you didn't realize [TS]

01:11:06   this could happen but now you think it [TS]

01:11:08   could happen to you can be screwed [TS]

01:11:09   I mean I think you nailed it like the [TS]

01:11:11   reason Apple cared so much about this [TS]

01:11:14   was because they know how bad it would [TS]

01:11:17   be if it appear that they were like [TS]

01:11:20   capriciously suspending developer [TS]

01:11:21   account for no reason like that would be [TS]

01:11:23   terrible for the reputation among [TS]

01:11:26   developers that they knew how important [TS]

01:11:28   it was to make sure that the official [TS]

01:11:30   story here which was true was that Apple [TS]

01:11:32   did not make a mistake in detecting this [TS]

01:11:35   fraud and suspended this account like [TS]

01:11:36   that was not a mistake on their part [TS]

01:11:38   they did not mess up they did not they [TS]

01:11:40   were not being capricious they actually [TS]

01:11:42   detected real fraud and on a linked [TS]

01:11:44   account that was really linkedin in a [TS]

01:11:46   way that is substantial and so like they [TS]

01:11:48   want that story to be true that like [TS]

01:11:50   this was not just them being wrong and [TS]

01:11:53   and again the way they handle is I i [TS]

01:11:55   think we handled it very well better [TS]

01:11:57   than they had to and so because of those [TS]

01:11:59   two things [TS]

01:12:00   yes I feel good about this like you know [TS]

01:12:03   if you can say as a developer working on [TS]

01:12:06   the app store there's always a certain [TS]

01:12:07   kind of minimum level of App Store BS [TS]

01:12:10   that everyone has to put up with most [TS]

01:12:11   mostly around like the review the policy [TS]

01:12:13   and everything else but it really in the [TS]

01:12:16   grand scheme of things that BS tends to [TS]

01:12:19   be most of the time consistent and and [TS]

01:12:22   easy to work with in for most developers [TS]

01:12:25   and and it's a known quantity it's not [TS]

01:12:28   usually capricious or like dangerous [TS]

01:12:31   about to kill your business at any [TS]

01:12:32   moment unless you're doing things really [TS]

01:12:34   close to the edge of the rules which you [TS]

01:12:36   know most people aren't and don't need [TS]

01:12:38   to for the most part the the Apple as a [TS]

01:12:42   gatekeeper does pretty well as [TS]

01:12:44   gatekeepers go the whole concept of a [TS]

01:12:46   gatekeeper to begin with is problematic [TS]

01:12:49   sorry Merlin it is you know that it is [TS]

01:12:51   challenging to get that right and is [TS]

01:12:53   always going to be dysfunction and [TS]

01:12:54   problems by having any gatekeeper but if [TS]

01:12:57   you're going to have a gatekeeper I [TS]

01:12:58   think Apple does a pretty good job of it [TS]

01:13:00   and possibly even a very good job of it [TS]

01:13:03   and as a developer on these platforms I [TS]

01:13:07   am reassured by this story that Apple [TS]

01:13:09   really does care to get things right and [TS]

01:13:12   to make sure that they're doing right [TS]

01:13:13   for the community as much as they can so [TS]

01:13:15   I consider this a positive thing as a [TS]

01:13:17   developer i consider it a bit of a pain [TS]

01:13:19   in the butt as a customer of dash but [TS]

01:13:22   purple lights [TS]

01:13:23   I consider it a positive thing as a [TS]

01:13:25   developer but that's why you should [TS]

01:13:26   never buy your your mac apps in the mac [TS]

01:13:28   app store once again we like available [TS]

01:13:31   outside the mac app store by it outside [TS]

01:13:33   the mac app store you'll just be happier [TS]

01:13:34   which which is a problem for apples like [TS]

01:13:36   ironic that like this is exposing like [TS]

01:13:38   you you know that like this is something [TS]

01:13:39   they can fix Apple internal ago when we [TS]

01:13:41   spend a developer account [TS]

01:13:42   shouldn't we still allow the apps to [TS]

01:13:44   download they can fix that internally [TS]

01:13:45   that seems like something you know if [TS]

01:13:47   they care about the mac app store all [TS]

01:13:48   that they would fix but yeah it's kind [TS]

01:13:51   of sad that it's there [TS]

01:13:52   they're kind of highlighting the the [TS]

01:13:53   problems with the mac app store by doing [TS]

01:13:56   the right thing and detecting and fraud [TS]

01:13:58   in canceling announced we were supposed [TS]

01:14:01   to tonight by pingdom go to pingdom calm [TS]

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01:14:18   run whatever the offering powerful [TS]

01:14:20   easy-to-use monitoring tools and [TS]

01:14:21   services for anybody with a website [TS]

01:14:23   kingdom can for example monitor [TS]

01:14:26   availability and performance of your [TS]

01:14:27   server your database or your website for [TS]

01:14:30   more than 70 global test servers they [TS]

01:14:33   can emulate this to your site to check [TS]

01:14:34   availability as often as every minute [TS]

01:14:36   and you can do things like have query [TS]

01:14:38   parameters have cookies you can have it [TS]

01:14:40   check for certain strings on the site to [TS]

01:14:42   make sure certain things are passing are [TS]

01:14:43   working properly [TS]

01:14:45   it's incredibly flexible and incredibly [TS]

01:14:46   powerful now developers know that [TS]

01:14:49   websites are becoming more and more [TS]

01:14:51   sophisticated and are often made up of [TS]

01:14:52   several different components and when [TS]

01:14:54   any one of them encounters an outage it [TS]

01:14:56   can affect the whole site so if kingdom [TS]

01:14:58   you can monitor the availability and [TS]

01:15:00   performance of key interactions you can [TS]

01:15:02   have it submit contact forms you have it [TS]

01:15:04   check out of an e-commerce site you have [TS]

01:15:06   a login to perform searches and a whole [TS]

01:15:08   lot more and stuff breaking the internet [TS]

01:15:11   all the time every month can be text [TS]

01:15:13   more than 13 million averages more than [TS]

01:15:15   400,000 outages a day so whether your [TS]

01:15:17   web presence is a small website or [TS]

01:15:19   complete infrastructure you should [TS]

01:15:20   really monitor its availability and [TS]

01:15:21   performance i used kingdom I've used it [TS]

01:15:23   since og's 2008 or something of very [TS]

01:15:26   very long time ago doesn't seven [TS]

01:15:27   something like that i use it back in the [TS]

01:15:29   for days now use it for all my stuff now [TS]

01:15:31   it is great i used kingdom all the time [TS]

01:15:34   and I hope to never hear from them but [TS]

01:15:35   when i do is when you hear from them [TS]

01:15:37   some things down but when I do hear from [TS]

01:15:39   them i'm really glad that they're there [TS]

01:15:40   right the message saying hey this thing [TS]

01:15:41   is down go check it it is very very nice [TS]

01:15:43   can alert you via text message at push [TS]

01:15:45   notification email any combination of [TS]

01:15:48   those things is very customizable and [TS]

01:15:50   just awesome i've used them again for a [TS]

01:15:51   very long time [TS]

01:15:53   all you do is give it give kingdom a URL [TS]

01:15:55   to monitor and optional conditions to [TS]

01:15:57   check for or you can just check to see [TS]

01:15:59   if it up and they take advantage they [TS]

01:16:01   tell you immediately so you can fix the [TS]

01:16:03   problem before becomes a much bigger and [TS]

01:16:05   more costly problem for you you should [TS]

01:16:07   not be learning that your site is down [TS]

01:16:09   from people on Twitter you should be the [TS]

01:16:11   first to know [TS]

01:16:12   and you can be with pingdom and you can [TS]

01:16:14   fix it before too many your customers [TS]

01:16:16   see it [TS]

01:16:16   check it out today go to pingdom calm / [TS]

01:16:19   ATP for a 14-day free trial and got [TS]

01:16:22   twenty percent off your first invoice [TS]

01:16:23   with offer code ATP thanks to kingdom [TS]

01:16:26   for sponsoring ah so Marco tell us about [TS]

01:16:31   dropbox and here's the thing [TS]

01:16:37   dropbox is making questionable choices [TS]

01:16:41   in in recent times there was a thing a [TS]

01:16:45   couple weeks back where dropbox was [TS]

01:16:48   basically discovered to be hacking the [TS]

01:16:50   mac accessibility APIs database [TS]

01:16:52   this is actually i believe it's fixed in [TS]

01:16:54   Sierra but basically Mac os10 has a [TS]

01:16:58   certain separate security level for [TS]

01:17:01   accessibility related apps and this [TS]

01:17:03   allows apps to to see way more system [TS]

01:17:06   events things like capture and keyboard [TS]

01:17:08   input and stuff like that you basically [TS]

01:17:10   if you are an accessibility app you can [TS]

01:17:11   basically see and and intercept and [TS]

01:17:15   track everything happening on the system [TS]

01:17:17   things that are considered secure you [TS]

01:17:19   can you can still do you have access to [TS]

01:17:21   them whereas most apps would not be able [TS]

01:17:23   to do things like log every keystroke [TS]

01:17:24   and that's you know everytime dinners [TS]

01:17:26   things like that right and so drop box [TS]

01:17:30   in order to to achieve certain features [TS]

01:17:33   or something [TS]

01:17:33   dropbox was forcefully injecting itself [TS]

01:17:37   into the list of of apps using a prompt [TS]

01:17:42   the prompt you for your password that [TS]

01:17:43   looked like the system password box and [TS]

01:17:46   how it was the system password box [TS]

01:17:48   that's why i put this thing is you know [TS]

01:17:49   it was yeah okay so like that you this [TS]

01:17:53   is this i have this to before Marco [TS]

01:17:55   started crying about dropbox I had an [TS]

01:17:57   item in the notice that actually still [TS]

01:17:58   blow their about dropboxes accessibility [TS]

01:18:01   quote-unquote hack because the first [TS]

01:18:03   stories about this were like so this [TS]

01:18:05   observed this is the observed behavior [TS]

01:18:06   which everyone agrees with crappy [TS]

01:18:08   observed behavior is dropbox it wants [TS]

01:18:12   you to turn on accessibility but if you [TS]

01:18:14   say no I people you know and take and [TS]

01:18:19   take it out the next time it comes up [TS]

01:18:20   we'll just try to put itself back like [TS]

01:18:22   if you go to the system preferences and [TS]

01:18:23   remove it right and then you just reboot [TS]

01:18:25   like it'll be back again and so that is [TS]

01:18:27   the user hostile behavior because the [TS]

01:18:29   user disabled it and then unbeknownst to [TS]

01:18:31   them maybe just launched it again and [TS]

01:18:33   put itself back and so the question was [TS]

01:18:34   among the people who first saw this [TS]

01:18:36   behavior who were probably not [TS]

01:18:39   programmers or particular technical was [TS]

01:18:41   like it must be saving my admin password [TS]

01:18:44   because i entered my men password to [TS]

01:18:46   allow it to do this stuff with them i [TS]

01:18:47   want to system preferences and turn it [TS]

01:18:49   off the only way they could be possibly [TS]

01:18:51   turning it back on automatically which [TS]

01:18:53   is this user hostile behavior that they [TS]

01:18:54   observed is that it must have saved my [TS]

01:18:57   men password which would indeed be [TS]

01:18:59   horrible but anybody who knows anything [TS]

01:19:01   about you know Mac os10 or whatever the [TS]

01:19:05   hell is called now and you still never [TS]

01:19:06   knows like they would never save your [TS]

01:19:10   password that is the stupidest possible [TS]

01:19:12   way to get the thing they want because [TS]

01:19:14   once you enter your admin password they [TS]

01:19:17   don't need your name and password [TS]

01:19:18   anymore right and so yeah so they don't [TS]

01:19:21   save your name and password which would [TS]

01:19:22   be an end and you can't totally discount [TS]

01:19:24   because we all hear about these websites [TS]

01:19:25   saving people's passwords in plain tex [TS]

01:19:27   so never never overestimate the security [TS]

01:19:30   intelligence of people writing code but [TS]

01:19:32   dropbox is a big company and its really [TS]

01:19:34   hard for me to believe they'd recently [TS]

01:19:35   had done they don't honestly I would [TS]

01:19:37   have believed that I i hit by the time i [TS]

01:19:39   read the story it was already discovered [TS]

01:19:41   they weren't actually saving the [TS]

01:19:42   password but I would not rule out that [TS]

01:19:44   they would try but whatever they [TS]

01:19:46   wouldn't notice it's a matter of [TS]

01:19:47   confidence because dropbox has a lot of [TS]

01:19:49   money and they have smart developers [TS]

01:19:50   right and the reason I think it's not a [TS]

01:19:52   matter of competence it's a matter of [TS]

01:19:54   respect [TS]

01:19:55   no no it's not [TS]

01:19:56   it's not it's a matter of confidence [TS]

01:19:57   because to do the thing they want to do [TS]

01:19:59   which we all agree is hostile they don't [TS]

01:20:01   need your password more than once once [TS]

01:20:03   they enter it like what they actually [TS]

01:20:05   did [TS]

01:20:05   there's makes that uid executable like [TS]

01:20:07   everybody knows that anyone's done any [TS]

01:20:08   units hacking like as soon as you've got [TS]

01:20:10   root access the first thing you do is [TS]

01:20:11   make set uid executables second uid [TS]

01:20:13   shell so you can get back like it's just [TS]

01:20:15   like you given them heard men password [TS]

01:20:18   they're like not to Dokdo chance check [TS]

01:20:21   the set uid bit on these seat Joe now I [TS]

01:20:23   have reset uid route executables done [TS]

01:20:26   and done they don't need your password [TS]

01:20:27   anymore right [TS]

01:20:28   and so that that is you know and that is [TS]

01:20:30   that what they use and it doesn't like [TS]

01:20:32   every time you give it happen in [TS]

01:20:34   password you are essentially saying by [TS]

01:20:36   giving you this admin password you now [TS]

01:20:38   have free reign of the whole system not [TS]

01:20:40   just momentarily but because once i give [TS]

01:20:41   it to you you can immediately makes that [TS]

01:20:43   uid executable as whatever and just like [TS]

01:20:46   that you know it's alright the the [TS]

01:20:48   system integrity protection protects [TS]

01:20:50   against that because it's like Oh even [TS]

01:20:51   with root access you can modify these [TS]

01:20:53   files or whatever but anyway that [TS]

01:20:55   there's that so that was his competence [TS]

01:20:58   like the best way to do this user [TS]

01:21:00   hostile behavior is not to store their [TS]

01:21:01   passwords you like they're smart they're [TS]

01:21:03   not going to do that and they're gonna [TS]

01:21:05   do it the smarter way to do this user [TS]

01:21:07   also be hit right [TS]

01:21:08   the second aspect of the part that's a [TS]

01:21:09   hack part is like once you have that [TS]

01:21:12   access it still doesn't mean you have to [TS]

01:21:14   go directly to the sequel like databases [TS]

01:21:16   start mucking with it's like using [TS]

01:21:17   private guys it's like Apple like you [TS]

01:21:19   don't know what the structure our [TS]

01:21:20   databases just because you look in there [TS]

01:21:21   and see a bunch of tables and columns [TS]

01:21:22   and think you know how to hack it [TS]

01:21:24   that's not that's not a public API it's [TS]

01:21:26   not guaranteed since the same reason I [TS]

01:21:28   want to use in private api's you're not [TS]

01:21:30   supposed to even be looking at stuff we [TS]

01:21:31   reserve the right to change that anytime [TS]

01:21:32   so that is the quote unquote hack part [TS]

01:21:35   of it is that don't directly access our [TS]

01:21:37   databases behind-the-scenes we provide [TS]

01:21:39   api's you have to use those you can't [TS]

01:21:41   just go sneakily find what the [TS]

01:21:43   underlying storage isn't and directly [TS]

01:21:44   mess with it so that is I don't know why [TS]

01:21:47   they were doing it that way maybe it's [TS]

01:21:48   the easiest way to secretly do it behind [TS]

01:21:50   the scenes but it's terrible and they [TS]

01:21:52   were signing themselves up for a [TS]

01:21:53   maintenance headache because it's like [TS]

01:21:54   once you use a private api like that [TS]

01:21:56   whether you know it or not you're now on [TS]

01:21:57   the hook to track every little change [TS]

01:21:59   Apple does to their internals instead of [TS]

01:22:01   just tracking their api discs because at [TS]

01:22:03   any moment at any point release they [TS]

01:22:05   could totally change the structure of [TS]

01:22:06   that database and your Apple blow up and [TS]

01:22:08   it's totally your fault because you [TS]

01:22:09   screw things up so that I would say is [TS]

01:22:11   the best example of them doing something [TS]

01:22:13   that's not a good developer practice but [TS]

01:22:16   the the initial story about them [TS]

01:22:19   changing your password is totally a [TS]

01:22:20   misunderstanding of of the the fact they [TS]

01:22:25   just they don't need your password like [TS]

01:22:27   they're they would never do that because [TS]

01:22:28   dumpy they have everything they need and [TS]

01:22:30   more right all right so anyway [TS]

01:22:33   however they were doing it dropbox was [TS]

01:22:35   really inappropriately hacking the TCC [TS]

01:22:39   database the accessibility database to [TS]

01:22:41   to inject themselves forcefully even if [TS]

01:22:44   you remove them so that to me is like [TS]

01:22:46   offense number one for you know this [TS]

01:22:49   this is not good and this is there they [TS]

01:22:52   are eroding trust that i have in them [TS]

01:22:54   and the ability and the willingness I [TS]

01:22:56   have to run their software on my [TS]

01:22:57   computer and give them access to [TS]

01:22:59   literally everything on my computer and [TS]

01:23:01   then up [TS]

01:23:02   hello before a firm that I their [TS]

01:23:04   defensive this as LinkedIn i think [TS]

01:23:06   probably have the hackers news link [TS]

01:23:07   developer talks about their defense is [TS]

01:23:10   actually plausible as a mean you still [TS]

01:23:13   just you still say like this is not [TS]

01:23:14   socially acceptable behavior especially [TS]

01:23:16   among tech savvy users but I can see [TS]

01:23:19   where company like Dropbox can get into [TS]

01:23:21   a situation where it thinks this is the [TS]

01:23:23   right thing to do and it's basically [TS]

01:23:24   that when you install an application if [TS]

01:23:26   they have these one-time prompts that [TS]

01:23:28   you answer coral growth the wrong way [TS]

01:23:30   like you didn't understand what the hell [TS]

01:23:31   was you just hit cancel or whatever and [TS]

01:23:33   now you don't have like some kind of [TS]

01:23:34   find your integration that you expected [TS]

01:23:36   from dropbox right it can be a [TS]

01:23:38   legitimate support issue that enough [TS]

01:23:40   people click the wrong box and at one [TS]

01:23:42   time setup thing and they're like [TS]

01:23:44   Dropbox doesn't work when i see my [TS]

01:23:46   friends computer there is little Badgers [TS]

01:23:48   of these little whatever like whatever [TS]

01:23:49   features accessibility providing is not [TS]

01:23:51   working dropbox is broken and i can [TS]

01:23:53   imagine that being a popular support [TS]

01:23:55   request and then they have to walk [TS]

01:23:57   people through all I go to the thing go [TS]

01:23:59   to accessibility click the lock icon and [TS]

01:24:01   go like to basically re-enable it and [TS]

01:24:03   then the the sort of cutting the Gordian [TS]

01:24:06   knot solution becomes you know what [TS]

01:24:08   users can't handle this is too [TS]

01:24:11   complicated they don't understand what [TS]

01:24:12   we mean by accessibility they don't want [TS]

01:24:13   to type in their main password they're [TS]

01:24:15   scared by why don't we just like if they [TS]

01:24:17   ever enter their main password put a [TS]

01:24:19   little insurance but this berry sunset [TS]

01:24:21   uid route executables [TS]

01:24:22   our bundle and soon as the admin [TS]

01:24:24   password put them there and you know [TS]

01:24:26   what it actually is definitely gets [TS]

01:24:27   turned off by a point release or an OS [TS]

01:24:29   update or whatever so we won't hear from [TS]

01:24:31   people saying hey drop box is broken [TS]

01:24:33   again why don't we just turn it on like [TS]

01:24:35   it's paternalistic it's like they won't [TS]

01:24:37   even know we do it we'll do it behind [TS]

01:24:39   the scenes they won't see any you i will [TS]

01:24:41   cut down on our support request that I [TS]

01:24:43   think is the headspace that they get [TS]

01:24:44   into it's not particularly nefarious [TS]

01:24:46   they're just trying to solve a support [TS]

01:24:48   problem but they eventually that they [TS]

01:24:50   wrap themselves up in knots to where [TS]

01:24:52   they think they're actually doing people [TS]

01:24:53   a favor by doing this [TS]

01:24:55   whereas we all realize you've gone too [TS]

01:24:58   far in the hopes of like let's make it a [TS]

01:25:00   smooth experience for most users at the [TS]

01:25:02   expensive being sneaky and it's the [TS]

01:25:04   wrong thing to do but i think it is not [TS]

01:25:07   done because they are malicious or bad [TS]

01:25:09   developers think it's actually because [TS]

01:25:11   they're trying to make make the [TS]

01:25:14   experience better for everybody like why [TS]

01:25:15   don't we just solve this why are we [TS]

01:25:17   bothering users with this crap why don't [TS]

01:25:18   we just make drop people just like [TS]

01:25:19   Dropbox to work like Dropbox we have a [TS]

01:25:21   technology we can just make it work and [TS]

01:25:24   that's I think where they went wrong in [TS]

01:25:25   that that feature and the thing is like [TS]

01:25:27   if you're going to you know basically [TS]

01:25:30   it's the attitude that a lot of [TS]

01:25:32   developers of and platform owners have [TS]

01:25:35   of like we know better than our users so [TS]

01:25:38   we're just going to do it for you [TS]

01:25:39   we're gonna do things the way we think [TS]

01:25:41   are right for you and you just have to [TS]

01:25:43   go along for the ride because that's [TS]

01:25:45   going to be best for you and you know it [TS]

01:25:48   and there's there's a place for that and [TS]

01:25:49   there's lots of places where that is the [TS]

01:25:50   the most pragmatic or the correct [TS]

01:25:52   solution or or position to take but as a [TS]

01:25:57   user I want to make sure that whatever [TS]

01:25:59   software i am granting that level of [TS]

01:26:02   control too i want to make sure that I [TS]

01:26:05   agree with their judgment in general and [TS]

01:26:08   and their their technical abilities and [TS]

01:26:10   their way of doing things and if i start [TS]

01:26:13   doubting somebody's judgment or [TS]

01:26:16   integrity or or skill then I don't want [TS]

01:26:20   them making decisions for me and doing [TS]

01:26:22   things behind my back and and and having [TS]

01:26:25   access that I don't believe that they [TS]

01:26:27   need and things like that that becomes a [TS]

01:26:29   trust issue of insecurity issue and and [TS]

01:26:32   lots of other potential problems so my [TS]

01:26:35   problem with dropbox here [TS]

01:26:36   or is that accessibility hack I think [TS]

01:26:39   shows poor judgment and I think that is [TS]

01:26:42   irresponsible the way they did that so [TS]

01:26:44   did Apple which is why Apple made it [TS]

01:26:45   impossible putting the accessibility [TS]

01:26:46   stuff into system integrity protection [TS]

01:26:48   in Sierra and apple is one such as you [TS]

01:26:52   know Apple is one of these companies to [TS]

01:26:53   or apple in many ways Apple apples [TS]

01:26:56   implied position is basically we know [TS]

01:26:58   best we're gonna do this for you and [TS]

01:27:00   you're not gonna have control and and if [TS]

01:27:01   you're an apple customer or user you [TS]

01:27:03   have to basically decide like do i do I [TS]

01:27:08   trust apple with this control and do i [TS]

01:27:10   generally agree with their judgment or [TS]

01:27:13   you know in order to have to give this [TS]

01:27:14   control happily without problems right [TS]

01:27:16   and a lot of people who don't like Apple [TS]

01:27:18   product you don't use a product the [TS]

01:27:20   reason they don't use apple products [TS]

01:27:21   because they don't want to get that [TS]

01:27:22   control they don't agree with a [TS]

01:27:23   positions in those areas and they are [TS]

01:27:25   they don't trust Apple to have that [TS]

01:27:26   level of ability and that's fine right [TS]

01:27:29   and my issue here with dropbox is that [TS]

01:27:31   they make decisions like this they also [TS]

01:27:33   like the it in their beta channel which [TS]

01:27:35   is still in beta granted but in their [TS]

01:27:37   beta channel they recently quote tested [TS]

01:27:40   a toolbar that was like injected into [TS]

01:27:42   Finder windows just make sure this giant [TS]

01:27:44   like to wear which it looks like malware [TS]

01:27:47   like was detected in the bottom of the [TS]

01:27:48   window and it's like no that's that's [TS]

01:27:51   not okay like that [TS]

01:27:52   why who thought that was a good idea but [TS]

01:27:55   that's just a bad feature being rolled [TS]

01:27:57   as a baby and everyone you know the try [TS]

01:27:59   it on ebay user all users go that's [TS]

01:28:01   awful right but like the this physics of [TS]

01:28:03   injecting that you will eventually get [TS]

01:28:04   to this I think later but like the [TS]

01:28:06   origin of dropbox is that it was [TS]

01:28:08   basically accion the finder you do all [TS]

01:28:10   the little badges in the icons like that [TS]

01:28:12   is that is the product we all fell in [TS]

01:28:13   love with his boys that one didn't like [TS]

01:28:15   literally inject itself into the finder [TS]

01:28:17   process to do this to look like the [TS]

01:28:19   worst kind of hack the worst kind of [TS]

01:28:21   totally unsupportable unsupported hack [TS]

01:28:23   and I think a lot of the reason I mean [TS]

01:28:26   that's the Apple came to to to start [TS]

01:28:29   using and we liked it and we like the [TS]

01:28:31   badges we like you know they gave you [TS]

01:28:32   some reassurance raincheck Markets Inc [TS]

01:28:34   little blue thing it's not like right [TS]

01:28:35   that's that's dropbox they didn't have [TS]

01:28:37   that feature it would have been a lesser [TS]

01:28:39   product and because the people who did [TS]

01:28:43   it were clever enough to get it done in [TS]

01:28:45   a way that didn't some late cause the [TS]

01:28:47   finder to be crashing left and right [TS]

01:28:49   and we're able to chase Apple as they [TS]

01:28:51   updated the finder and keep it working [TS]

01:28:53   and so on so forth to the point where [TS]

01:28:55   Apple eventually said dropbox is so [TS]

01:28:58   popular and badging things is the thing [TS]

01:29:00   that people actually want to do we're [TS]

01:29:01   going to add an official AP office they [TS]

01:29:03   finally did the taxis pass on the grass [TS]

01:29:05   thing that been talking about all these [TS]

01:29:07   years ago was like look at what people [TS]

01:29:08   are using if you don't want them to use [TS]

01:29:11   the disgusting hack to use this feature [TS]

01:29:13   making officially supported API and I'm [TS]

01:29:15   pretty sure I'm some i'm sure people [TS]

01:29:17   will send an email from wrong it's been [TS]

01:29:18   a pretty sure the dropbox did eventually [TS]

01:29:21   adopt that official API rather than [TS]

01:29:23   continuing the hackers that we drop [TS]

01:29:24   boxes and when i do that hack they would [TS]

01:29:26   love to have a support ABI presumably if [TS]

01:29:29   the support API does everything the [TS]

01:29:30   dropbox needed to do this of course they [TS]

01:29:33   would adopt it and I think they have in [TS]

01:29:34   the later versions that's not really the [TS]

01:29:37   system working like but during all that [TS]

01:29:40   time we were all like yeah badges and [TS]

01:29:42   rock icons is great [TS]

01:29:44   alright so it's not so much that they [TS]

01:29:45   added a hack for this is that you could [TS]

01:29:47   say the fact that someone thought this [TS]

01:29:49   was a statically pleasing inappropriate [TS]

01:29:52   you I issues for judgment which I'm I'm [TS]

01:29:55   on board with you there right it looks [TS]

01:29:57   like i'm thinking like those internet [TS]

01:29:58   explorer toolbars you know that yeah I [TS]

01:30:01   you just look like that shows poor [TS]

01:30:03   judgment but the fact that it's not a [TS]

01:30:05   the fact that is injected like well you [TS]

01:30:08   know origin dropbox was founded on on [TS]

01:30:11   ill-advised code injection which is [TS]

01:30:13   probably not on the wall in their [TS]

01:30:14   headquarters but might not [TS]

01:30:16   yeah fair enough anyway so drop box in [TS]

01:30:18   my opinion has shown poor judgment [TS]

01:30:21   recently and and questionable technical [TS]

01:30:23   decisions but also in it there's some [TS]

01:30:25   performance issues like Dropbox appears [TS]

01:30:28   to monitor all file system activity in [TS]

01:30:31   some way like not just in their folder [TS]

01:30:33   but in the whole system so i have some [TS]

01:30:35   things to say about that as well [TS]

01:30:36   okay we're going about this they've been [TS]

01:30:39   doing that for freaking ever from the [TS]

01:30:41   very beginning dbfs venti has been there [TS]

01:30:43   slurping from the fs events fire hose [TS]

01:30:45   and being Justin functions always been [TS]

01:30:47   this is not a new thing like whether its [TS]

01:30:49   ill-advised or not it's like maybe not [TS]

01:30:51   from the very very beginning but for [TS]

01:30:53   many many years and if you have to look [TS]

01:30:55   at top and cdfs events the grinding up [TS]

01:30:58   your things especially if you had a slow [TS]

01:30:59   spinning disk and especially if you have [TS]

01:31:01   a small number of [TS]

01:31:02   where's that is not a new development [TS]

01:31:04   now you can say a preponderance of [TS]

01:31:07   things have been bothering me about [TS]

01:31:08   dropbox and also i know i noticed that [TS]

01:31:11   it's eating up my cpu cycles and they [TS]

01:31:13   shouldn't be drinking from the fs events [TS]

01:31:15   firehouse and they should be using the [TS]

01:31:16   officially supported estimates API and [TS]

01:31:19   doing the dips themselves and so on and [TS]

01:31:21   so forth that is a legit complaint but [TS]

01:31:23   its not New so I think for you [TS]

01:31:25   personally you to think about while [TS]

01:31:27   you're at your end of your rope about [TS]

01:31:28   dropbox that could be a contributing [TS]

01:31:31   factor but just because you may have [TS]

01:31:32   become aware of it recently doesn't mean [TS]

01:31:34   it's not something that has been a [TS]

01:31:35   constant for many years [TS]

01:31:36   that's fair totally fair but anyway so [TS]

01:31:39   with these problems that are finding [TS]

01:31:42   with dropbox I started thinking could i [TS]

01:31:46   remove dropbox from my life could i [TS]

01:31:48   switch to something else for the for the [TS]

01:31:50   roles that I use dropbox for and and how [TS]

01:31:53   difficult would that make my life in [TS]

01:31:55   working with other people basically that [TS]

01:31:57   and this is an interesting exercise I [TS]

01:32:00   started realizing that like at a lot of [TS]

01:32:03   of the way I work and the software i use [TS]

01:32:05   is tied very closely to dropbox right [TS]

01:32:09   now and and I don't even use it as much [TS]

01:32:11   as a lot of people and like a lot of [TS]

01:32:13   geeks are no don't they put like all [TS]

01:32:15   their photos and dropbox all they're [TS]

01:32:17   like text everything like it like I [TS]

01:32:19   actually use dropbox pretty lightly [TS]

01:32:21   compared to many people i know but even [TS]

01:32:24   then like something like how do i how [TS]

01:32:26   would I move off of dropbox of things [TS]

01:32:28   finally pushed me over the edge I [TS]

01:32:30   decided because i'm not there like I'm [TS]

01:32:32   not saying right now i'm leaving dropbox [TS]

01:32:34   period [TS]

01:32:34   i I don't know that I don't know what [TS]

01:32:36   I'm going to be doing that yet but I [TS]

01:32:38   start thinking like what what is dropbox [TS]

01:32:40   continues going down a path i disagree [TS]

01:32:42   with and and I decide that I want to [TS]

01:32:44   leave like what does that look like hell [TS]

01:32:46   wouldn't you what do I go to first of [TS]

01:32:48   all right well before before you explain [TS]

01:32:50   your conclusions why don't we talk about [TS]

01:32:52   something that's definitely [TS]

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01:33:45   monograms and whether i was very [TS]

01:33:47   surprised how much was customizable here [TS]

01:33:48   they basically you take 14 unique [TS]

01:33:51   measurements even is awesome tutorial [TS]

01:33:53   videos on exactly how to measure [TS]

01:33:54   yourself will even send you a little [TS]

01:33:56   cloth measuring tape if you need it and [TS]

01:33:58   then go see you into these amazing [TS]

01:34:00   measurement to submit your measurements [TS]

01:34:01   and in some cases even ask you for [TS]

01:34:03   pictures just to kind of verify certain [TS]

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01:34:38   in a suit classic from the premium [TS]

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01:34:50   look your way [TS]

01:34:54   so I've been trying to figure out if [TS]

01:34:57   there's any alternatives to dropbox I [TS]

01:34:59   could switch to and then and how that [TS]

01:35:00   would look how that would work what you [TS]

01:35:03   know what I would have to move or change [TS]

01:35:04   about my work flows are set up to to [TS]

01:35:06   really achieve that and like I I you so [TS]

01:35:08   much for dropping that like I have my my [TS]

01:35:10   one password sync is there i have a [TS]

01:35:12   couple of like text a person to it my [TS]

01:35:14   entire blog engine is based on dropbox [TS]

01:35:16   sinking and editable text files are in [TS]

01:35:18   dropbox folder and the way edit my blog [TS]

01:35:21   on my phone is by using dropboxing text [TS]

01:35:23   editors so it it would be non-trivial to [TS]

01:35:27   switch off at once mentioned one of the [TS]

01:35:29   biggest thing about dropbox shared [TS]

01:35:30   folders like you know we the three of us [TS]

01:35:33   on the show we have a shared folder like [TS]

01:35:35   that's how John in case you get their [TS]

01:35:36   audio files to me after each show that's [TS]

01:35:39   how we that's where we put like any kind [TS]

01:35:40   of shared files things like artwork and [TS]

01:35:42   sound effects and there's so many like [TS]

01:35:44   so many people like when you're working [TS]

01:35:46   with small group of people especially if [TS]

01:35:48   they're nerds like us you will almost [TS]

01:35:50   always have like Dropbox shared folders [TS]

01:35:52   or Dropbox share links involved in that [TS]

01:35:54   in that work group in some way so it [TS]

01:35:57   really is not trivial to switch away and [TS]

01:36:00   there aren't a whole lot of solutions on [TS]

01:36:03   how to switch away like assuming you [TS]

01:36:04   want the same kind of thing there's I [TS]

01:36:07   don't like five or six different things [TS]

01:36:09   you could do that there's not a ton the [TS]

01:36:11   ones i got the most recommendations for [TS]

01:36:13   our uh what used to be called BitTorrent [TS]

01:36:17   sync and is now called resilient and [TS]

01:36:20   then there's also see file and SE a file [TS]

01:36:23   there's not a lot about it out there but [TS]

01:36:26   people who use it tend to love it [TS]

01:36:28   apparently like I is it is not a lot [TS]

01:36:31   like that the not a lot know in the way [TS]

01:36:33   of like apps for like iOS and stuff or [TS]

01:36:35   anything like that but people seem to [TS]

01:36:37   love see file so i might try that as [TS]

01:36:41   well I didn't really get a noticeable [TS]

01:36:43   amount of recommendations for any other [TS]

01:36:45   solution i'm curious have you guys ever [TS]

01:36:49   tried any of these other things that can [TS]

01:36:50   that can do dropbox like functions [TS]

01:36:52   no but what about the synology cloud [TS]

01:36:55   station whatever they call it [TS]

01:36:56   oh yeah I i do want to try that as well [TS]

01:36:59   I'm a little guy I worry about like you [TS]

01:37:02   know because it is probably a fairly [TS]

01:37:03   small audience thing I worry again with [TS]

01:37:06   that I worry about things like [TS]

01:37:08   app support that's why if you're going [TS]

01:37:09   to try one if it in a world without [TS]

01:37:12   without like mobile devices are just [TS]

01:37:14   thinking between two computers i would [TS]

01:37:15   probably try see file because that seems [TS]

01:37:17   like it is that it is the best regarded [TS]

01:37:19   in that way but because we're in this [TS]

01:37:21   world of like mobile and you need things [TS]

01:37:22   like apps and stuff I think BitTorrent [TS]

01:37:24   sync extremely resilient is probably the [TS]

01:37:26   one to use that seems like the most [TS]

01:37:28   popular alternative that is roughly what [TS]

01:37:30   I'm looking for I go with the bigger [TS]

01:37:32   names like I've used like box fault for [TS]

01:37:35   ya voluntarily a multi-use box it work [TS]

01:37:38   did not like but it is very dropbox like [TS]

01:37:40   just imagine dropbox but worse [TS]

01:37:42   that's great that's what I'm looking for [TS]

01:37:44   yeah Google Drive obviously widely [TS]

01:37:49   supported is available on mobile it [TS]

01:37:51   works more or less like Dropbox i do use [TS]

01:37:53   that voluntarily both at work and at [TS]

01:37:56   home and if I feel like if i if i was [TS]

01:37:59   going off dropbox for whatever reason [TS]

01:38:01   that's probably where I would go because [TS]

01:38:03   it is very widely supported i already [TS]

01:38:05   know i'm in to the Google ecosystem [TS]

01:38:07   pretty well yeah so but i haven't had [TS]

01:38:12   any problems with it i can't save [TS]

01:38:14   exercise as much as Dropbox basically I [TS]

01:38:15   don't run google drive unless i needed i [TS]

01:38:17   launched it i use the web UI line and if [TS]

01:38:20   i wanted to be on my mac i launched it [TS]

01:38:22   do whatever I need to do and then quit [TS]

01:38:24   so obviously i'm not giving the same [TS]

01:38:25   workout the dropbox does but that seems [TS]

01:38:28   to me the most obvious well-supported [TS]

01:38:30   reasonable alternative i have no idea [TS]

01:38:32   how it behaves in terms of nice into [TS]

01:38:35   your system [TS]

01:38:35   I know lots of Google stuff annoys me by [TS]

01:38:38   when you give it your root password at [TS]

01:38:41   some of your admin password at some [TS]

01:38:42   point and it gets admin privileges it [TS]

01:38:45   installs all sorts of little Watchers to [TS]

01:38:47   make sure that all the google apps are [TS]

01:38:48   kept up to date which is kind of nice [TS]

01:38:50   but also kind of creepy when like this [TS]

01:38:52   dialog pops up asking it updated google [TS]

01:38:54   app that you haven't launched in like a [TS]

01:38:55   year and a half and you're like what is [TS]

01:38:57   that has been that been running on my [TS]

01:38:58   system trying to make sure google earth [TS]

01:39:00   is up-to-date that I haven't launched in [TS]

01:39:01   forever like go away whatever their [TS]

01:39:03   Keystone process like I don't like that [TS]

01:39:05   but you know maybe that's what's keeping [TS]

01:39:09   me away from those in and on dropbox [TS]

01:39:11   what I feel like Dropbox is more [TS]

01:39:12   understandable I kind of know what it's [TS]

01:39:14   doing [TS]

01:39:15   and you know the it in finer detail but [TS]

01:39:17   anyway that seems like the most obvious [TS]

01:39:19   alternatives you might want to give that [TS]

01:39:21   a try depends on what your main [TS]

01:39:22   objection to drop boxes is it like ugly [TS]

01:39:24   why is it installing weird crap in your [TS]

01:39:26   system is it performance like but i [TS]

01:39:30   would say that you know that doesn't [TS]

01:39:32   help you with the social aspects of the [TS]

01:39:33   sort of network effect of like hey we're [TS]

01:39:35   all using dropbox and you're over there [TS]

01:39:36   and google drive but google drive is [TS]

01:39:38   pretty well supported on all mobile [TS]

01:39:40   platforms has a really nice web UI and [TS]

01:39:42   and does the job I mean and there is [TS]

01:39:45   there is one little saving grace with [TS]

01:39:46   with dropbox like with with having to [TS]

01:39:48   use dropbox if you don't want it [TS]

01:39:50   software running is that they do have a [TS]

01:39:51   pretty robust web interface so you [TS]

01:39:53   couldn't you can if you if you're forced [TS]

01:39:56   to work with dropbox people and you [TS]

01:39:57   don't want to wonder about yourself you [TS]

01:39:58   can actually get a lot of it done with [TS]

01:39:59   that web interface not all of it but you [TS]

01:40:01   can you can do a lot there i think also [TS]

01:40:03   with with with both Google Drive and [TS]

01:40:06   Dropbox which as compared to iCloud [TS]

01:40:08   Drive which is apparently not in the [TS]

01:40:10   running here [TS]

01:40:10   yeah i was gonna mention and yeah that [TS]

01:40:13   the glorious thing about this is that no [TS]

01:40:15   matter what we think about dropbox and [TS]

01:40:16   google drive this maybe not true but i [TS]

01:40:20   think we also have the feeling that if I [TS]

01:40:22   quit dropbox it's out of the picture [TS]

01:40:25   until I relaunch it right but you can [TS]

01:40:27   quit is a third-party application you [TS]

01:40:29   can put it on your mac and then like so [TS]

01:40:31   if you were to quit you feel like all [TS]

01:40:33   right well dropbox is not in the picture [TS]

01:40:34   anymore right [TS]

01:40:35   whatever evil it was doing before [TS]

01:40:37   whatever annoyance I was having and for [TS]

01:40:41   the most part both of them respect the [TS]

01:40:43   thing of like launch one dialogue and [TS]

01:40:44   yes no they don't automatically turn [TS]

01:40:46   that one back on and so you can turn off [TS]

01:40:48   dropbox and have some confidence that [TS]

01:40:51   it's not messing you anymore as opposed [TS]

01:40:54   to iCloud Drive which is always the [TS]

01:40:56   suspicion that you know some part of the [TS]

01:40:58   system is doing stuff behind the scenes [TS]

01:41:00   and you can't just quit if you wanted [TS]

01:41:01   out of the picture like but you haven't [TS]

01:41:03   brought this up forever like the idea of [TS]

01:41:04   a expanding xcode with its thousands and [TS]

01:41:06   thousands of files and you don't want my [TS]

01:41:08   BBFS NT grinding up on your record from [TS]

01:41:12   dropbox observing every single facet [TS]

01:41:13   event you can quit dropbox and then [TS]

01:41:16   you'll like that won't happen anymore if [TS]

01:41:17   I could drive was doing the same thing [TS]

01:41:19   which hopefully it isn't you don't have [TS]

01:41:22   that option except for maybe uncheck the [TS]

01:41:24   checkbox and it's saying you sure you [TS]

01:41:25   want to remove all these you know having [TS]

01:41:27   all your documents onto desktop [TS]

01:41:28   disappear or some other weird thing when [TS]

01:41:30   you could drop box and you can quit and [TS]

01:41:32   being nothing happens to your Dropbox [TS]

01:41:33   folder like it stays however it was when [TS]

01:41:35   you quit which is I think reassuring [TS]

01:41:38   yeah I mean I cloud drive is a few [TS]

01:41:40   people also recommended that and it [TS]

01:41:42   seems like while most people have issues [TS]

01:41:45   with other iCloud things the especially [TS]

01:41:48   things like the Sierra you know document [TS]

01:41:49   and stop saying stuff it seems like [TS]

01:41:51   iCloud drive is pretty good for most [TS]

01:41:54   people that most of the reports that we [TS]

01:41:56   got from it [TS]

01:41:57   we're very positive and a lot of people [TS]

01:41:58   said that they stopped using dropbox and [TS]

01:42:01   just use iCloud Drive now so I i might [TS]

01:42:03   consider that iCloud Drive still kind of [TS]

01:42:05   bothers me though in the way that it's [TS]

01:42:07   not just a folder like it looks like a [TS]

01:42:09   folder and find her but isn't it kind of [TS]

01:42:11   knot isn't kind of weirdly all over the [TS]

01:42:12   place it's like library mobile document [TS]

01:42:14   so i would just caution again are fine [TS]

01:42:16   but just don't use it with pages or any [TS]

01:42:18   of our complications because apparently [TS]

01:42:19   makes it so you can opener saving your [TS]

01:42:21   files right [TS]

01:42:22   yes that's been kind of like what what [TS]

01:42:25   is great about dropbox is that it the [TS]

01:42:28   weights and what it is is so [TS]

01:42:29   conceptually simple it's like this II [TS]

01:42:31   there's a special folder on your hard [TS]

01:42:33   drive you can see where it is the [TS]

01:42:35   regular folder full of regular files but [TS]

01:42:37   there's this thing in the background [TS]

01:42:38   that runs that keeps it in sync with [TS]

01:42:39   that same folder on your other computers [TS]

01:42:41   like that is great and and I I compared [TS]

01:42:44   the past one of them they like about [TS]

01:42:46   that is that it kind of has the failure [TS]

01:42:48   mode of a train when the failure mode of [TS]

01:42:50   an airplane was like like if an airplane [TS]

01:42:52   fails it crashes and you die if a train [TS]

01:42:56   fails it's just not moving everything is [TS]

01:42:58   still there you just kind of stopped [TS]

01:42:59   moving and like that's kind of how I [TS]

01:43:02   feel with drop like the way dropbox like [TS]

01:43:04   Dropbox service has any kind of issue [TS]

01:43:07   which it does it is not perfect i've [TS]

01:43:09   seen issues many times as somebody who's [TS]

01:43:11   a blog engine based on dropbox you know [TS]

01:43:14   if dropbox fails all my files are just [TS]

01:43:17   still sitting there on my drive if [TS]

01:43:18   dropbox has some kind of catastrophic [TS]

01:43:20   error and like wipes out all my files it [TS]

01:43:23   like i'm gonna choose sync problem and [TS]

01:43:25   delete all my files those files in the [TS]

01:43:28   directory has got a time machine or my [TS]

01:43:29   backups and I can just get the file off [TS]

01:43:31   the backups so like it the the ways in [TS]

01:43:35   which you can fail our are pretty like [TS]

01:43:38   low-key safe things that i can easily [TS]

01:43:41   recover from as a responsible computer [TS]

01:43:43   user who has backups whereas with a lot [TS]

01:43:45   of solutions there like a little too [TS]

01:43:48   smart a little too abstracted I don't [TS]

01:43:50   have that kind of luxury some of them do [TS]

01:43:51   work that way but many of them don't [TS]

01:43:53   and so that's why that's why i was [TS]

01:43:55   thinking like BitTorrent sync again [TS]

01:43:56   knowing very little about it because it [TS]

01:43:58   seems like that was probably going to be [TS]

01:44:00   more like what I wanted but in reality [TS]

01:44:02   I'm probably just gonna stick with [TS]

01:44:04   dropbox for a while but kinda taking a [TS]

01:44:07   few steps out the door like keeping one [TS]

01:44:09   foot out the door hit in a way looks [TS]

01:44:11   because however prefer do most things [TS]

01:44:12   with like service and I commit myself to [TS]

01:44:14   so you know I i'm going to at some point [TS]

01:44:17   start moving things off the dropbox like [TS]

01:44:20   i'm gonna move one password sync out of [TS]

01:44:21   that i'm going to stop adding anything [TS]

01:44:24   new to dropbox that would never do [TS]

01:44:26   require its integration start you know [TS]

01:44:29   sending around links to people because [TS]

01:44:31   download files instead of you know [TS]

01:44:33   having dropbox shared folders [TS]

01:44:34   necessarily you know don't invest into [TS]

01:44:36   into photos there things like that like [TS]

01:44:38   just kind of like kinda putting dropbox [TS]

01:44:41   at a bit of a distance and starting to [TS]

01:44:43   move out of it slowly because i think i [TS]

01:44:46   think they're in there showing enough [TS]

01:44:48   bad judgment over time here that I think [TS]

01:44:50   the time will come that I will want to [TS]

01:44:52   move off of it and i kinda wanna be [TS]

01:44:54   ready for that and that's easier said [TS]

01:44:55   than done and I definitely take issue [TS]

01:44:58   with some of the shady things that have [TS]

01:45:01   been going on but I do think that it's [TS]

01:45:06   especially if you take the hacker news [TS]

01:45:08   comments as actually coming from an [TS]

01:45:10   engineer and an engineer that is to some [TS]

01:45:12   degree obviously unofficially speaking [TS]

01:45:15   for the company [TS]

01:45:15   it doesn't seem like any of this was [TS]

01:45:17   really malicious it was just either [TS]

01:45:19   ill-advised or or perhaps you know they [TS]

01:45:23   weren't as smart as we hope they were or [TS]

01:45:25   whatever the case may be but I don't [TS]

01:45:27   know I feel like Dropbox is fairly [TS]

01:45:30   essential to me getting my my life done [TS]

01:45:34   i was going to say work because my life [TS]

01:45:36   so it would take quite a lot for me to [TS]

01:45:39   want to walk away from it and i am not [TS]

01:45:41   at that point yet and I think I'm [TS]

01:45:43   further away from that point and you are [TS]

01:45:45   and that's not a bad thing that's that's [TS]

01:45:46   not a good thing is just the thing but [TS]

01:45:48   it's certainly worth keeping an eye on [TS]

01:45:50   and certainly you know we were talking [TS]

01:45:52   earlier about you know what is everyones [TS]

01:45:53   person [TS]

01:45:54   option of Apple after this whole [TS]

01:45:55   kerfuffle with dash and what is [TS]

01:45:58   everyone's perception of dropbox after [TS]

01:45:59   this came at came to light and I feel [TS]

01:46:03   like Dropbox which used to be kind of [TS]

01:46:06   like panic level can do no wrong in my [TS]

01:46:10   mind anyway can do no wrong generally [TS]

01:46:13   speaking is really good code that seems [TS]

01:46:14   to always work etc it it doesn't seem [TS]

01:46:19   quite so cut-and-dry to me anymore and [TS]

01:46:21   that's too bad but you know even the [TS]

01:46:23   mighty can fall [TS]

01:46:24   alright thanks a lot two or three [TS]

01:46:26   sponsor this week betterment kingdom and [TS]

01:46:28   indochino we will see you next week [TS]

01:46:32   now the show is over they didn't even [TS]

01:46:36   mean to begin as it was accidental [TS]

01:46:39   accidental Johnson [TS]

01:46:45   research Marco in kc wouldn't let down [TS]

01:46:48   because it was accidental was accidental [TS]

01:46:53   and you can find the show know today p [TS]

01:46:57   dot and if your twitter follow them [TS]

01:47:04   yes byl ISS so that's Casey list and a [TS]

01:47:10   co-pay rm20 Marco Arment are see that [TS]

01:47:18   Syracuse [TS]

01:47:26   what [TS]

01:47:31   what are you doing the post-show you [TS]

01:47:34   want to talk about your camera's yeah we [TS]

01:47:36   got more marker waffling there should be [TS]

01:47:38   a new we should put the capital W on [TS]

01:47:41   that Marco waffling here we come [TS]

01:47:43   waffling yeah the category things where [TS]

01:47:46   Margo decides on a direction for his [TS]

01:47:51   life like an example would be I like BMW [TS]

01:47:54   cars and then that the this determined [TS]

01:47:56   after that is I like electric cars right [TS]

01:47:58   then we assume there will be some point [TS]

01:47:59   in the future perhaps distant future of [TS]

01:48:01   Marco starts walking electric cars so [TS]

01:48:03   this one is that that's how we define [TS]

01:48:06   this this category of thing I don't want [TS]

01:48:09   Marco often doesn't have a good ring to [TS]

01:48:10   it we got it we got a workshop that name [TS]

01:48:12   gonna come anyway the current round of [TS]

01:48:15   Marco waffling which by the way it [TS]

01:48:16   sounds like it's a bad name but just [TS]

01:48:17   joking really what it is is Marco being [TS]

01:48:21   willing to revisit decisions he's made [TS]

01:48:23   in the past when the conditions change [TS]

01:48:24   they're going which is an admirable [TS]

01:48:26   thing but it's much more fun to make fun [TS]

01:48:27   of him about it and use the word waffle [TS]

01:48:29   because it's funny [TS]

01:48:30   so anyway the current one is his cameras [TS]

01:48:33   you know for years I used SL ours they [TS]

01:48:37   gradually fell out of out of favor as I [TS]

01:48:40   just didn't want to carry them anywhere [TS]

01:48:41   and then I i got this little tiny sony [TS]

01:48:44   rx1 because it could basically see in [TS]

01:48:47   the dark the center was so good and I [TS]

01:48:49   had an amazing little prime lens on it [TS]

01:48:51   the limitations of that camera with both [TS]

01:48:54   you know things like autofocus speed [TS]

01:48:55   this is the old argument is that there's [TS]

01:48:57   a new ones better but there's the first [TS]

01:48:58   one auto focus speed sucked the battery [TS]

01:49:01   life sucked and I want a little more [TS]

01:49:03   versatility in the land selection and [TS]

01:49:06   just you know just a little bit better [TS]

01:49:07   performance and it wasn't small enough [TS]

01:49:10   that i was actually carrying in many [TS]

01:49:12   places because it was still a camera [TS]

01:49:14   that couldn't fit in my pocket so about [TS]

01:49:17   a year ago I i switch to the the new [TS]

01:49:20   sony a7r too because it's so it's this [TS]

01:49:23   is my first mirrorless like but it's [TS]

01:49:26   still interchangeable lens camera it's [TS]

01:49:28   an amazing camera in many many ways the [TS]

01:49:31   a7r to is if in many ways the best [TS]

01:49:34   camera in the world right now however it [TS]

01:49:37   is not perfect and it's not perverted in [TS]

01:49:40   some fairly large ways and over the last [TS]

01:49:43   year [TS]

01:49:44   I have thought I can get by this and I [TS]

01:49:47   can get used to this and i'll get out [TS]

01:49:49   faster so the main reasons the sony a7r [TS]

01:49:52   to is not perfect [TS]

01:49:54   our number one and this is a huge one [TS]

01:49:57   which I'll describe why later battery [TS]

01:49:59   life and ever since the beginning I mean [TS]

01:50:01   I made fun of the fact that the camera [TS]

01:50:02   is the battery life is so bad that it [TS]

01:50:05   ships with two batteries in the box is [TS]

01:50:07   the first time i ever bought any [TS]

01:50:09   electronic device that includes two of [TS]

01:50:12   its own battery because everyone who [TS]

01:50:15   uses it will need more than one I wish [TS]

01:50:17   mine came with two batteries like 50 [TS]

01:50:19   bucks for a little turkey battery I know [TS]

01:50:20   and I've lost two of them so anyway so [TS]

01:50:25   it the battery life is terrible [TS]

01:50:28   you know you're lucky to get through a [TS]

01:50:30   day using it and and you can you can [TS]

01:50:32   only do you can only get through a whole [TS]

01:50:34   day if you are very very careful and you [TS]

01:50:38   kind of baby the battery the second [TS]

01:50:40   problem with it is that it is it is [TS]

01:50:42   pretty slow turn it on you know it takes [TS]

01:50:45   a few seconds to kind of boot up and get [TS]

01:50:47   it self-oriented shot to shot time if [TS]

01:50:50   you want to review the pictures that [TS]

01:50:52   you're taking with it it is very very [TS]

01:50:54   slow takes a few seconds after it has [TS]

01:50:56   shot before you can really review them [TS]

01:50:57   if you if you want to review a picture [TS]

01:51:00   and zoom in to check to make sure like [TS]

01:51:02   you that you that you focused correctly [TS]

01:51:04   or the right thing wasn't focusing you [TS]

01:51:05   want to like zoom in and check that [TS]

01:51:07   takes a long time like a few seconds [TS]

01:51:09   delay riding the pictures to the card [TS]

01:51:12   takes a long time which is partly [TS]

01:51:14   because they're so large but also [TS]

01:51:16   probably because you think the image [TS]

01:51:17   processor just slow just to provide some [TS]

01:51:19   context here by the way over you i'm [TS]

01:51:20   sure you'll get to the context [TS]

01:51:21   eventually but my sony which I'm sure is [TS]

01:51:25   well not sure actually is it is actually [TS]

01:51:27   slower and all those things you describe [TS]

01:51:28   yours because mine is actually newer [TS]

01:51:29   yours is yours is almost a year newer [TS]

01:51:32   and also shoots much smaller photos so [TS]

01:51:34   it's you I bet yours is probably faster [TS]

01:51:36   well i was going to say I totally [TS]

01:51:38   believe that this is slower than the [TS]

01:51:40   thing you're actually comparing it to [TS]

01:51:41   which we'll get to in a moment but it's [TS]

01:51:42   the best camera of everyone so they [TS]

01:51:44   could the world when you go from the [TS]

01:51:46   world of like three digit price cameras [TS]

01:51:48   to the world four-digit price cameras i [TS]

01:51:50   was amazed at how fast this thing turns [TS]

01:51:52   on how fast it boots up how fast does [TS]

01:51:54   everything [TS]

01:51:55   so everything's relative but anyway [TS]

01:51:57   contain the results of this camera it [TS]

01:51:59   has the most amazing sensor I've ever [TS]

01:52:02   seen I think it might even be one of the [TS]

01:52:04   best testing for intentions in the world [TS]

01:52:06   bye-bye like testing metrics like pho [TS]

01:52:08   market everything it is an incredibly [TS]

01:52:10   awesome sensor I can basically see in [TS]

01:52:12   the dark with very little noise dynamic [TS]

01:52:14   range is ridiculous [TS]

01:52:15   it has an incredibly advanced auto focus [TS]

01:52:18   system the main problem is just that [TS]

01:52:20   it's so slow and that the battery life [TS]

01:52:23   is so bad and the battery life manifest [TS]

01:52:25   itself in interesting ways that I [TS]

01:52:27   thought I hadn't necessarily foreseen [TS]

01:52:28   foresaw when when i when i bought it in [TS]

01:52:31   first and even when i bought a new [TS]

01:52:33   battery life was gonna be great but but [TS]

01:52:36   there are certain ways this is a problem [TS]

01:52:38   so for instance it has Wi-Fi but I've [TS]

01:52:41   never used it because energy in order [TS]

01:52:43   for it to be convenient to use you have [TS]

01:52:45   to leave the Wi-Fi enabled in some way [TS]

01:52:47   and then you'll eventually launch [TS]

01:52:48   everything and to get reasonable better [TS]

01:52:51   if I this camera you have to do things [TS]

01:52:52   like keep it in airplane mode so i just [TS]

01:52:54   never use the flat because it's just [TS]

01:52:58   like I have I have a call these settings [TS]

01:52:59   like maximize the power consumption also [TS]

01:53:01   like as you're shooting throughout the [TS]

01:53:03   day because mirrorless if the camera is [TS]

01:53:06   on if it's ready to go [TS]

01:53:08   one of the two screens is always on [TS]

01:53:10   either the ones in the electronic [TS]

01:53:11   viewfinder or the one in the back screen [TS]

01:53:14   is always on if the camera is ready to [TS]

01:53:16   shoot [TS]

01:53:16   unlike SLR is really at slrs if you have [TS]

01:53:19   the back screen on this one thing but in [TS]

01:53:21   normal with us are you shooting through [TS]

01:53:22   the optical viewfinder there's no screen [TS]

01:53:25   on in that process there might be the [TS]

01:53:26   metering sensor might be active [TS]

01:53:28   depending on the moats and whether it's [TS]

01:53:29   certain things you're sleeping but [TS]

01:53:30   basically there's no screens around so a [TS]

01:53:33   DSLR that is just ready to shoot but not [TS]

01:53:35   actually shooting a picture uses very [TS]

01:53:37   little power and it's one of the reasons [TS]

01:53:38   why dslrs get so much better battery [TS]

01:53:41   life then these large full frame but [TS]

01:53:43   still mirrorless cameras that have lots [TS]

01:53:45   of processing demands but very small [TS]

01:53:46   batteries so for the sony in order to [TS]

01:53:49   save battery life i often need to flip [TS]

01:53:52   it off when im using it just it just you [TS]

01:53:54   know if I'm not gonna be shooting for [TS]

01:53:56   the next couple of minutes I'll just [TS]

01:53:58   flip it off because if you don't look as [TS]

01:54:00   you like move around and the camera like [TS]

01:54:02   you know bounces off your chest off your [TS]

01:54:04   sides are walking around like it'll will [TS]

01:54:07   detect it will think your eyes [TS]

01:54:08   against a soldier on the eps screen or [TS]

01:54:10   then it will think you're not against [TS]

01:54:11   this will turn the back screen so it's [TS]

01:54:13   basically there's always a screen being [TS]

01:54:16   on and the sensor being you know [TS]

01:54:18   capturing the data and showing it to the [TS]

01:54:20   screen so the power draw these things is [TS]

01:54:22   incredibly high in just like walking [TS]

01:54:24   around mixed shooting use and so you [TS]

01:54:27   basically have to keep them switched off [TS]

01:54:28   when you're not shooting to save the [TS]

01:54:30   battery so that means that every time [TS]

01:54:32   you want to take a shot if it was off [TS]

01:54:34   you got to turn it on you get away from [TS]

01:54:35   the boot up again so that's like a few [TS]

01:54:37   seconds lost their and and because of [TS]

01:54:39   that i have often missed shots because [TS]

01:54:42   like as my kids getting older [TS]

01:54:44   he's getting faster at this is the thing [TS]

01:54:47   that happens i guess i'm learning this [TS]

01:54:49   but that's the most dangerous game [TS]

01:54:51   covers exactly exactly so basically it [TS]

01:54:56   is causing me to miss a lot of shots and [TS]

01:54:58   it's causing me to not use certain [TS]

01:55:00   features very well and if these aren't [TS]

01:55:01   the only examples but basically like [TS]

01:55:03   ensure it i'm not able to use the camera [TS]

01:55:06   its full potential because i need to [TS]

01:55:08   baby the battery so much it is a lot [TS]

01:55:11   more inconvenient than i expected to [TS]

01:55:13   have a battery life that this bad [TS]

01:55:15   compared to slrs which i use for you [TS]

01:55:17   beforehand you know SLR like you can [TS]

01:55:19   leave it on all day and it won't be a [TS]

01:55:22   problem at all like it'll be in like a [TS]

01:55:23   certain low-power mode and if you like [TS]

01:55:26   if you lift it up and have press the [TS]

01:55:27   shutter button its it is on like a [TS]

01:55:29   half-second ready to go [TS]

01:55:30   like it's so fast for SLR to to exit the [TS]

01:55:33   on but idle state bandits right there [TS]

01:55:36   like it's so fast so and you can and [TS]

01:55:38   when it's when it's in that on I'll say [TS]

01:55:40   to use so little power you can literally [TS]

01:55:41   leave it there for like all day or even [TS]

01:55:43   days and yet the battery won't die it's [TS]

01:55:45   incredible like how big is our batteries [TS]

01:55:47   hard how long they last relative to [TS]

01:55:49   America's camera like those so maybe a [TS]

01:55:53   month after i got the so-named I I'd [TS]

01:55:55   picked up our old 5d Mark still uses the [TS]

01:55:57   5d mark two most of the time so about a [TS]

01:55:59   month after the sony i was already [TS]

01:56:00   getting used to and I picked up the 5d [TS]

01:56:02   mark two I thought this is the largest [TS]

01:56:04   heaviest dinosaur I've ever felt this is [TS]

01:56:06   crazy i'm so glad i moved to Maryland [TS]

01:56:09   etc now a year and a couple of months in [TS]

01:56:12   now that i am more custom to the [TS]

01:56:15   limitations and annoyingness of this [TS]

01:56:18   particular mirrorless camera and of into [TS]

01:56:20   some degree of merrells cameras in [TS]

01:56:21   general [TS]

01:56:21   all this past weekend i picked up tips [TS]

01:56:24   camera to take a few shots she had my [TS]

01:56:26   favorite lens mounted on the the 1 35 [TS]

01:56:28   millimeter cannon f2 we want a quick [TS]

01:56:31   shot outside i picked up this camera and [TS]

01:56:33   took a few shots with the 135 of my kid [TS]

01:56:37   being cute and a pumpkin patch [TS]

01:56:39   I just flew on it it was like night and [TS]

01:56:42   day and I thought having been out of [TS]

01:56:45   practice with with that camera control [TS]

01:56:47   scheme for a year and it being an [TS]

01:56:50   eight-year-old camera compared to my [TS]

01:56:52   like awesome high-end new sony I thought [TS]

01:56:54   this would be slower i wouldn't be able [TS]

01:56:56   to get things in focus because the focus [TS]

01:56:59   system is so primitive in the old 5d [TS]

01:57:01   mark two compared to what we have today [TS]

01:57:03   and I i thought the picture looked as [TS]

01:57:05   good as there's so much lower resolution [TS]

01:57:06   sensor is so old and crappy and the [TS]

01:57:08   reality is not only did I fly on the [TS]

01:57:11   controls but I nailed tons of shots very [TS]

01:57:14   quickly because it like just shooting [TS]

01:57:16   with an SLR especially a good SLR like [TS]

01:57:18   the 5d series is so much faster than a [TS]

01:57:22   full-frame mirrorless and I know there [TS]

01:57:24   are smaller non full-frame mirrorless [TS]

01:57:26   cameras there's lots that are in the [TS]

01:57:28   aps-c sensor size range of the micro [TS]

01:57:30   four-thirds size range and because these [TS]

01:57:32   these process smaller sensors with a lot [TS]

01:57:35   fewer pixels they often are a lot faster [TS]

01:57:37   and it is also possible i know to make a [TS]

01:57:40   full frame camera that is very very fast [TS]

01:57:42   because at XOXO i was able to to briefly [TS]

01:57:45   use a friends like a is that the q1 to [TS]

01:57:49   fix 28 millimeter lens whatever it was [TS]

01:57:51   it was one of the one of the like are [TS]

01:57:54   like five-thousand-dollar mirrorless [TS]

01:57:56   things and it was amazing how incredibly [TS]

01:57:58   fast and responsibility that's what i [TS]

01:58:00   noticed immediately about that camera [TS]

01:58:01   and honest I don't love the idea of a [TS]

01:58:03   fixed 20 millimeter lens being the only [TS]

01:58:04   ones in a camera even know that [TS]

01:58:06   typically with the iphone is that but [TS]

01:58:08   anyway so because it's like a queue is [TS]

01:58:12   not probably for me but Wow was it nice [TS]

01:58:15   to you fast camera again so i use that [TS]

01:58:17   XOXO about a month ago over this weekend [TS]

01:58:19   i use tips XLR tips SLR excellent after [TS]

01:58:23   the audio will too much i basically [TS]

01:58:25   realize that oh my god i really love a [TS]

01:58:28   fast pro handling camera like as i was [TS]

01:58:31   talking a couple of weeks ago about the [TS]

01:58:34   difference between like four [TS]

01:58:35   no hardware and non-pro hardware want [TS]