The Accidental Tech Podcast

183: I Filed a Radar

 

  it is so hot in this room and so he mad [TS]

  the humidity has been brutal here it's [TS]

  only 77 degrees and i'm dying in this [TS]

  room because it's so humid and of course [TS]

  the product 90 degrees in his room [TS]

  I feel great air-conditioning's on I [TS]

  haven't put my slippers on mid-show [TS]

  cause my feet were getting a little bit [TS]

  cold [TS]

  we should probably actually get started [TS]

  huh [TS]

  no that's making on the show none of it [TS]

  not come on no yeah so here you know how [TS]

  I'm gonna make you put some of that in [TS]

  the show [TS]

  watch this hey speaking of cars we [TS]

  should probably do some follow-up [TS]

  starting with more reasons for qnx akc [TS]

  do we have any follow-up he just said [TS]

  that so Casey do we have any follow-up [TS]

  who he should probably start with the [TS]

  follow-up Marco that your you make an [TS]

  excellent point and we had an individual [TS]

  right in with more reasons for using qnx [TS]

  and these actually were the to my ears [TS]

  and eyes the best reasons I've heard yet [TS]

  and what if we basically boiled down to [TS]

  was incredibly fast boot times were in [TS]

  poor generally important for cars [TS]

  because you don't want to say have to [TS]

  wait until you're five minutes down the [TS]

  road before your air conditioning or [TS]

  radio turns on or something like that [TS]

  and the other reason that this [TS]

  individual gave was you know if you [TS]

  think about it the instrument clusters [TS]

  on a lot of cars are often driven by [TS]

  some sort of display or perhaps driven [TS]

  by signal that's coming off some [TS]

  connects derived computer and those need [TS]

  to be real time I mean that data needs [TS]

  to show you exactly how fast you're [TS]

  going right freaking now and so having a [TS]

  real time I was like you index makes [TS]

  that sort of thing a lot easier by [TS]

  Tesla's system is not based in qns i'm [TS]

  pretty sure it's just some kind of linux [TS]

  and you can tell like you can tell you [TS]

  did because like you know something like [TS]

  again like that last one like most of [TS]

  the time it works fine but sometimes [TS]

  like we were of state and and I heard we [TS]

  were driving around found out directions [TS]

  and the map is getting a little bit [TS]

  wonky like it was starting to like flick [TS]

  out and slow down a little bit and like [TS]

  not update quickly enough and that's [TS]

  that's great to like you know when [TS]

  you're following a map to enter my turn [TS]

  and just doesn't update so you're [TS]

  looking at like the last turn from 30 [TS]

  seconds ago instead that's fun and then [TS]

  there's one point where it made the turn [TS]

  signal clicking sound when the turntable [TS]

  wasn't on a what there was in one of the [TS]

  like I described last episode that I've [TS]

  had to reboot it three times so far over [TS]

  the three or four months whatever it is [TS]

  one of the times that i had to reboot it [TS]

  immediately before hand the turn signal [TS]

  was not clicking like it would turn on [TS]

  and the light with the indicator blinks [TS]

  in the dash but you wouldn't have a [TS]

  click noise so obviously the clicking [TS]

  noise is made by the center console [TS]

  computer like that it's adding it to the [TS]

  sound system and all likelihood anyway [TS]

  so so the sims one of the symptoms I [TS]

  knew something was wacky this time was [TS]

  the turn signal noise started clicking [TS]

  when a certain terms of was not on i was [TS]

  driving straight down a road ahead and [TS]

  text it like that was it [TS]

  it's so that i rebooted again DX [TS]

  goodness so yes I i would apprehend [TS]

  anyone it's not booted the turn signal [TS]

  does not like one is rebooting you can [TS]

  turn and ended the indicator on the on [TS]

  the dashboard did blink when it was when [TS]

  it when the computer is booting like it [TS]

  was still blinking and so I assumed this [TS]

  signal is still on i hope the light was [TS]

  still blinking outside the car but [TS]

  there's no sound again it's like one of [TS]

  those things where like when you tie [TS]

  these things to software that you know [TS]

  II you are at the whim of the software's [TS]

  stability responsiveness up time you [TS]

  know it's similar to like one of the [TS]

  things that that I didn't like so much [TS]

  for the Apple watch is so many at so [TS]

  many interactions are tied to force [TS]

  touch and when you when you push really [TS]

  hard on the watch face too [TS]

  and you expect that button click even [TS]

  though it's not really a button even [TS]

  though it's all fake and simulated you [TS]

  know you expect that better click back [TS]

  immediately as if it were a button and [TS]

  the same thing with all the force touch [TS]

  trackpad like they have the same the [TS]

  same requirement like it has to respond [TS]

  like the physical object that it is [TS]

  mimicking right has to be quick it has [TS]

  to be immediate [TS]

  there can't be any delay on the watch [TS]

  you know the watch is very slow hardware [TS]

  wise and sometimes that sometimes the [TS]

  software gets coming up a little bit and [TS]

  so you push and sometimes delay before [TS]

  actually clicks back at you and it [TS]

  totally breaks the illusion that makes [TS]

  it feel broken or cheap or wrong or you [TS]

  know [TS]

  whatever the case may be and that's [TS]

  actually one concern I have with the [TS]

  force touch home button that is rumored [TS]

  to be in the next iphone that like you [TS]

  know if you get if if you push that home [TS]

  button and the iphone software is like a [TS]

  little bit you know a little bit [TS]

  overwhelmed or buggy or whatever if you [TS]

  push that and you don't get a click feel [TS]

  back first few seconds or at all like [TS]

  that's gonna feel really broken really [TS]

  quickly so anyway [TS]

  similar thing with like this car stuff [TS]

  like you know back to this follow-up [TS]

  saying the QX is really good for boot [TS]

  time and response times of interactions [TS]

  like I totally get that and I totally [TS]

  respect that because when you're tying [TS]

  things to controls of physical object [TS]

  that makes a big difference my complaint [TS]

  about the ancient iphone 6 that I'm [TS]

  using is that I have a physical home [TS]

  button and I press it and it always you [TS]

  know goes in just like you said I feel [TS]

  that physical feedback immediately but [TS]

  you know it doesn't happen immediately [TS]

  springboard doesn't appear immediately [TS]

  that's what does it by clicking and then [TS]

  look at my phone like what are you what [TS]

  are you doing well I push the button [TS]

  I'm know i know i push it because it [TS]

  went in and then i went out and then [TS]

  I'll ok now the animation starting i'm [TS]

  getting picking my old age I don't know [TS]

  getting picky [TS]

  what you should really do to make it [TS]

  seem like your phone is even older [TS]

  instead of saying my old iphone 6 you [TS]

  should say my first iphone which i'm [TS]

  still using that's true yeah I don't [TS]

  think my cell phone sex is getting [TS]

  slower but i'm just getting less and [TS]

  less patient for like when it doesn't [TS]

  respond i mean and i know it's not just [TS]

  being slowly my ipad pro then I points7 [TS]

  driver was pretty darn fast i still feel [TS]

  like when i hit the home button on that [TS]

  sometimes I have to wait I want them to [TS]

  be instant just wait for the new touch [TS]

  ID sensor it's pretty damn fast [TS]

  yeah I know I that use my wife so I know [TS]

  that the touch ID sensor scans I'm just [TS]

  saying like I didn't feel like sometimes [TS]

  it's not responding to me as immediately [TS]

  as it has I feel like it should [TS]

  who knows anyway the other thing this [TS]

  person to say about you know why why do [TS]

  cars have crappy hardware we read some [TS]

  other feedback from someone who works on [TS]

  these systems talking about the how the [TS]

  car manufacturers want to save money and [TS]

  pinch pennies and I said that was silly [TS]

  couple of the factors that were also [TS]

  mentioned many other people are really [TS]

  very best [TS]

  person is that this a long lead time on [TS]

  hardware that goes into cars that [TS]

  development cycles are really long so [TS]

  they have to pick hardware that's [TS]

  available like three years before the [TS]

  carbon comes out and you know maybe it's [TS]

  even longer so maybe like four or five [TS]

  years but I'm coming over to pick [TS]

  something that is currently like 3 45 [TS]

  years old by the time the ships in the [TS]

  car and finally stuff in cars has to [TS]

  operate extremes of temperature if you [TS]

  ever left your phone on the dashboard or [TS]

  even in a sealed cubby inside your car [TS]

  like not in the Sun but just tried [TS]

  taking your phone and putting it in the [TS]

  glove box or in the little console thing [TS]

  anywhere inside your car on a hot day [TS]

  when you come back [TS]

  chances are good after being away for [TS]

  several hours in the middle of the day [TS]

  your device will refuse to function [TS]

  because the temperature is too high and [TS]

  the the chips in the car obviously can't [TS]

  do that they have to continue working [TS]

  even when they're like 250 degrees or [TS]

  whatever and they have to continue [TS]

  working on its negative 40 these are all [TS]

  real temperatures not crazy Celsius [TS]

  yeah haha similar like like if you ever [TS]

  heard of like how slow the computers are [TS]

  on satellites or the space shuttle [TS]

  because like you know like you your [TS]

  stories you know about like how they're [TS]

  still running something that's about as [TS]

  fast as like a 486 or something like [TS]

  that and like the reason one of the [TS]

  reasons why they have to use such slow [TS]

  types of hardware is that they have to [TS]

  operate in extreme conditions that would [TS]

  just kill any you know like the chip [TS]

  than an iphone and so it's similar but [TS]

  less severe in a car [TS]

  yeah that's their excuse but like still [TS]

  it's a little ridiculous that you know [TS]

  that the value is the washing machine [TS]

  ships they're using like they're slower [TS]

  than the ones in space probes the space [TS]

  probes have powerpc 60 ones that are [TS]

  like rad hardened in them and they're [TS]

  using chips that are like from a gameboy [TS]

  advance so it's see moresee that are [TS]

  made a gameboy advance fast and that [TS]

  anyway bottom line we have the [TS]

  technology we can make the hardware in [TS]

  cars better and i think we probably want [TS]

  to shorten up the the cycle time on that [TS]

  too i know it sort of all developed as [TS]

  it as one big unit but you just can't [TS]

  afford to do that if we have if a [TS]

  manufacturer can show you in just a year [TS]

  off of the cycle time and they can have [TS]

  a year newer electronics that can make a [TS]

  big difference i think especially like [TS]

  that as the as the infotainment systems [TS]

  and even the instrument clusters and all [TS]

  that stuff becomes a more important [TS]

  differentiator for cars as a software [TS]

  becomes like all of the products [TS]

  software becomes more [TS]

  important part of the whole the whole [TS]

  product mixture the company that can [TS]

  figure that software out is gonna have a [TS]

  big advantage [TS]

  alright tell us about audio sync in [TS]

  quartz crystals which we've gotten a lot [TS]

  of feedback about market you want to [TS]

  cover this [TS]

  yeah sure so basically so you know the [TS]

  last couple of days we discussed a while [TS]

  back i discuss my my podcast tool to [TS]

  automatically sync up tracks that were [TS]

  recorded locally for each person [TS]

  multi-person recording and then you know [TS]

  sync it up to the master track because [TS]

  if you try to import those tracks [TS]

  manually you think it up the difference [TS]

  in the in like the sense of time that [TS]

  each person's audio interface had it [TS]

  caused the problem called drift where if [TS]

  you sink of our recordings like right up [TS]

  front the beginning of the show an hour [TS]

  in we might be out of sync by like half [TS]

  a second or a second my microphone [TS]

  interface the little you know converter [TS]

  in it that samples the audio at 44100 [TS]

  times per second has a very very very [TS]

  slightly different interpretation of [TS]

  what that means like have of how long a [TS]

  second is or how how many times it has [TS]

  to be then the one in cases of John's [TS]

  computers and over time that very very [TS]

  tiny error can add up to quite a lot and [TS]

  so this caused the problem of drift [TS]

  we've gotten lots of feedback about why [TS]

  this happens last episode I speculated [TS]

  that you're making these these [TS]

  components physical components and any [TS]

  little tiny bit of imprecision and [TS]

  making them when you when you are taking [TS]

  44,000 samples per second over two hours [TS]

  a very small variance in the clock [TS]

  performance of two different physical [TS]

  devices will cause them to to disagree [TS]

  into drift over time like this [TS]

  so my speculation was basically like [TS]

  it's not really possible to make [TS]

  something that is that is cheap and a [TS]

  computer like this that that is more [TS]

  accurate than that and we have to deal [TS]

  with it and we had lots of people right [TS]

  in from the pro audio world and from [TS]

  some people in from like the scientific [TS]

  equipment world which is pretty cool [TS]

  have pretty cool listeners also [TS]

  confirming what I said last episode that [TS]

  that pro audio gear actually people are [TS]

  going to say also pro filmed here does [TS]

  similar things rather than trying to [TS]

  like sync up a bunch of different audio [TS]

  tracks afterwards and software from [TS]

  different audio recording sources that [TS]

  might be on a film set or a recording [TS]

  studio they use the concept of a master [TS]

  clock and they have like one device [TS]

  whether it's a clock generator or just a [TS]

  device that content has an internal [TS]

  clock and progear has usually clock in [TS]

  and clock out ports on the back of it [TS]

  and so you'd like to actually physically [TS]

  wire all to each other and they like [TS]

  coordinate the clock based on one master [TS]

  source rather than each device keeping [TS]

  its own clock and therefore reducing [TS]

  this drift was a lot of people wrote in [TS]

  saying that was true and then the best [TS]

  feedback we got I I very casually [TS]

  mentioned last episode that i had just [TS]

  anecdotally found that laptops are [TS]

  generally generally have more drift then [TS]

  like a mac pro or a desktop or like an [TS]

  imac and it turns out there's a basis [TS]

  for this the quartz crystals that [TS]

  vibrate at particular frequencies that [TS]

  create these clocks these devices that [TS]

  have to be so accurate they are very [TS]

  dependent on stable temperature and if [TS]

  you if they don't have a stable [TS]

  temperature that are operating or even [TS]

  if it's just two different operating two [TS]

  different temperatures that can cause [TS]

  these these very very slight differences [TS]

  and laptops usually their internal [TS]

  components usually operate hotter than [TS]

  desktops and also fluctuate more and you [TS]

  know desktops have much bigger heatsink [TS]

  mechanisms they have usually larger fans [TS]

  are spinning faster and pushing more air [TS]

  of them so desktop to be cooled better [TS]

  and so I think that alone might explain [TS]

  that little thing that yes this is this [TS]

  is a this is worse on laptops or when [TS]

  you have like one desktop on one end and [TS]

  the other person other end is using a [TS]

  laptop that might have more drift [TS]

  between them then if both people reason [TS]

  desktops or able people using laptops [TS]

  and this is related to what I the the [TS]

  reason i was i put the original feedback [TS]

  and follow-up from like this seems weird [TS]

  to me tell me we can make quartz [TS]

  crystals that I can because I remember [TS]

  him you know of [TS]

  world of watches which i'm not that [TS]

  involved in but they do you know the [TS]

  fancy mechanical Rogers obviously are [TS]

  terrible keeping time because i have a [TS]

  bunch of gears and stuff but like you [TS]

  know and Tencent quartz watch keeps [TS]

  amazing time for you know for an entire [TS]

  year maybe we'll lose a second it's like [TS]

  so how do you make a stupid plastic [TS]

  quartz watch that keeps amazing time is [TS]

  very accurate over the course of an [TS]

  entire year but we can make a quartz [TS]

  crystal for our computer that is equally [TS]

  accurate and there are a bunch of [TS]

  factors that have to go into that having [TS]

  to do with the specifics of the quality [TS]

  of the crystals or even for tents and [TS]

  watch or whatever but one of our readers [TS]

  a reader's whatever is road and tell us [TS]

  that the advantage of watch has is that [TS]

  is essentially kept at an even [TS]

  temperature by being next to your skin [TS]

  so you are essentially temperature [TS]

  regulating the watch the entire time [TS]

  you're wearing it and that's the best [TS]

  thing for a quartz crystal actually in [TS]

  scenarios where they really want them to [TS]

  be stable they put them in a little [TS]

  every what they called it but they put [TS]

  him in a little device that keeps it a [TS]

  stable temperature so having a watch and [TS]

  wearing it all the time keeps it [TS]

  accurate much more elaborate than you [TS]

  know a laptop that you're the [TS]

  temperatures are going up and down and [TS]

  you're putting it to sleep and you're [TS]

  playing a game and it's just it's all [TS]

  over the map so this is all very [TS]

  explicable and now we should feel every [TS]

  time you learn anything about the actual [TS]

  analog physical world of components [TS]

  inside your computer makes you feel [TS]

  scared and so now you can know that uh [TS]

  thing the regulating the clocks or [TS]

  pieces of crap to and change all the [TS]

  time you do it [TS]

  yeah like whenever you learn about the [TS]

  analog component world lucky you start [TS]

  like we we live in like this digital [TS]

  world where we think everything is just [TS]

  like you know one is just on 20 is just [TS]

  off and of course when you get into the [TS]

  analog level of like the physical [TS]

  implementation of these chips and these [TS]

  components it isn't that simple and [TS]

  everything is kind of like tolerances [TS]

  and variances an approximation and [TS]

  tricks and like it's kind of amazing all [TS]

  the stuff we have works at all as [TS]

  consistently as it does [TS]

  yep i'm even just a clock like you learn [TS]

  from like CPU design and even is [TS]

  propagating the clock signal around the [TS]

  died of a large cpu is kind of it's kind [TS]

  of sketchy at best of all sorts of [TS]

  phase-locked loops and other things to [TS]

  make sure that that actually propagates [TS]

  everywhere and it's the same everywhere [TS]

  and you have delays and yeah so anyway I [TS]

  think we are now all completely [TS]

  satisfied [TS]

  that we understand why Marcus tool is [TS]

  necessary in life [TS]

  yep and speaking of in your quest to [TS]

  avoid doing actual work you actually [TS]

  filed radar [TS]

  yes I did I'm very proud of you yeah do [TS]

  you want to tell us about this okay so [TS]

  last episode in the after-show I got my [TS]

  time in the Sun or whatever the metaphor [TS]

  is and but whatever floats your bubble [TS]

  and so I got I got to finally explain [TS]

  the details of the mp3 file format and [TS]

  the the efforts i was trying to do with [TS]

  variable bit rate or vbr encoding and [TS]

  why podcasts couldn't practically use [TS]

  vbr encoding which basically boils down [TS]

  to the method to seek a vbr file that [TS]

  you don't have also like if you if you [TS]

  are playing a stream and and the user [TS]

  jumps ahead to a timestamp its way for [TS]

  the stream you haven't downloaded like [TS]

  the part of the file between those two [TS]

  points [TS]

  you can't really know exactly what bite [TS]

  position to jump to to get to know [TS]

  timestamp one hour 30 without using [TS]

  these look-up tables at the beginning of [TS]

  the VBR file that just don't have very [TS]

  much precision in mode in the current [TS]

  standards are in the old standard [TS]

  they're very precise and so over the [TS]

  course of it to our podcast you only [TS]

  have in in the most common jump table [TS]

  for i only have a hundred entries so you [TS]

  have you know minute precision at best [TS]

  you know it might even be less than a [TS]

  precision I've learned a lot since then [TS]

  I did a lot of experimentation I talked [TS]

  to a bunch of people and I learned a lot [TS]

  about this so I was recommending the use [TS]

  of this there's a 93 tag its abbreviated [TS]

  MLT 4mp location lookup table and this [TS]

  is basically a 93 tag version of the VBR [TS]

  offset jumped able to tell you you know [TS]

  which bites map to which time stamp so [TS]

  you can jump between the file easily [TS]

  without having to have down the whole [TS]

  thing just you know skander manually the [TS]

  benefit of the id3 tag is that it can be [TS]

  any size like the the VBR jump table [TS]

  thing is restricted to the size of like [TS]

  the one mp3 frame that they shoved it [TS]

  into for compatibility reasons so it has [TS]

  to be like basically below kilobyte or [TS]

  so the id3 tag [TS]

  can be anything you want to be so the [TS]

  id3 tag version this would be great [TS]

  because you can you can basically have [TS]

  arbitrary precision as much space as [TS]

  you're willing to devote to this and [TS]

  like for me like i was able to encode [TS]

  one second precision of the time stamps [TS]

  with something like 16 kilobytes of a [TS]

  total jump table so for like a 45-minute [TS]

  by podcast 16k for some table is fine [TS]

  and by having vbr you're saving like 20 [TS]

  megs on the file size in a case of it's [TS]

  totally worth the savings to embezzle [TS]

  table so I also heard from Devon govorit [TS]

  after recording last episode i [TS]

  discovered a github open source project [TS]

  called audio cogs and and there's a [TS]

  group people who make JavaScript [TS]

  implementations of decoders for mp3 AAC [TS]

  a couple of the audio formats and a [TS]

  whole audio player all written in [TS]

  JavaScript that can act like decode and [TS]

  play these audio formats entirely in [TS]

  JavaScript and that support MLT tag [TS]

  these property BR seek methods and [TS]

  everything it's it's and if they didn't [TS]

  it's an easy way for me to add support [TS]

  to this like that i could then have my [TS]

  sites web player switch to this and then [TS]

  i would i would eliminate his problem [TS]

  anyway so I heard from one of the [TS]

  authors of this devin govett we went [TS]

  back and forth a few times [TS]

  Devon informed me that the front offer [TS]

  vbr I tag which is an alternative [TS]

  version of the that stupid 100 entry [TS]

  jump table is basically more precise [TS]

  version that it still has to fit within [TS]

  1 mp3 frame but instead of being a [TS]

  hundred bites it can be like 1.3 [TS]

  kilobytes so that's like that's better [TS]

  you know that's you have more space more [TS]

  precision medicine experimentation with [TS]

  that couple problems came up though [TS]

  first discovered in the experimentation [TS]

  going back and forth Devon that not only [TS]

  does apples decoder not support the MLT [TS]

  or the this VRI tag that has the more [TS]

  precise version even that that stupid [TS]

  little hundred bite version in the in [TS]

  the King tag that we talked about last [TS]

  episode [TS]

  apple doesn't use it there decoder [TS]

  completely ignores it [TS]

  it does read these tags to get the [TS]

  duration of the files so it's it's [TS]

  parsing them because the duration is [TS]

  also one of the fields in these tags so [TS]

  it reads them for the duration and if [TS]

  you add them in a hex editor and you put [TS]

  in duration you want their will show up [TS]

  like a quick look at everything as a [TS]

  duration so we know it's reading them [TS]

  but it completely ignores any of the [TS]

  entries that are in these seek tables [TS]

  that tell it which bite maps two weeks [TS]

  time stamp in any of these forms that [TS]

  ignores all of them [TS]

  this is bad so I basically wrote up a [TS]

  bug report and I i emailed some people [TS]

  inside Apple to say like you know like [TS]

  hey here's here's the problem having and [TS]

  you know if if you guys would support [TS]

  really any of these formats it except [TS]

  for maybe that maybe the stupid hundred [TS]

  white one but if if you support the [TS]

  front for bri frame or the awesome MLT [TS]

  id3 tag either of those would provide [TS]

  useful precision for to our podcast to [TS]

  be able to seek reliably within within 1 [TS]

  to 10 seconds of the desired point as [TS]

  opposed to the stupid hundred white one [TS]

  which is like a minute off and their [TS]

  their estimation which is which could be [TS]

  any amount off really and is frequently [TS]

  like 32 34 36 seconds off anyways female [TS]

  this around and I made a blog post [TS]

  basically make as much noise as possible [TS]

  about this issue because i've i've [TS]

  realized I'm sorry for the massive [TS]

  diversion here I i like talking about [TS]

  like Randy apple stuff on a podcast [TS]

  where doesn't get me in trouble and [TS]

  where you guys can take me a little bit [TS]

  and rebut me it's better for me to [TS]

  reserve my blog for issues of maybe [TS]

  greater importance or more boring topics [TS]

  or whatever else [TS]

  my blog is a great way to spread a [TS]

  message to people who don't always [TS]

  follow me and that is often the problem [TS]

  like when i get myself into hot water [TS]

  it's often because a whole bunch people [TS]

  who don't follow me and don't really get [TS]

  my context are reading something that I [TS]

  didn't write very well and where I [TS]

  assume people would get my contacts and [TS]

  understand me and they'd be the ones [TS]

  reading it and that gets me into trouble [TS]

  but something like this like we're [TS]

  requesting you know that Apple implement [TS]

  an esoteric standard of the mp3 file [TS]

  format that's 20 years old that is [TS]

  really boring and doesn't spread into [TS]

  business insider or CNBC and there's not [TS]

  much embedded really controversial [TS]

  although hacker news found some things [TS]

  but most people would not find this [TS]

  controversial [TS]

  so this is i think is a very good use of [TS]

  my blog and kind of its helping inform [TS]

  me like how i should use my various [TS]

  outlets looking for anyway I found a [TS]

  giant bug report with example files an [TS]

  example of why why their way of just [TS]

  ignoring you seek tables for long BRB [TS]

  threes was bad what you know what's bad [TS]

  how you can fix it that's it that's [TS]

  there's nothing has happened yet on this [TS]

  front however i have gotten rumblings [TS]

  here and there that this that this bug [TS]

  report has traveled inside of Apple but [TS]

  that's all I know and I don't know [TS]

  anything else that's going on with it [TS]

  it is probably too late even if Apple [TS]

  decided I was right and they want to do [TS]

  this it is almost certainly too late to [TS]

  get into iOS 10 or mac OS Sierra but I [TS]

  would just love for this to happen [TS]

  sometime soon and the main reason why I [TS]

  can't do the audio cogs and the average [TS]

  is like that the JavaScript version that [TS]

  is only about a minute ago the html5 [TS]

  audio element can fetch a file from [TS]

  basically anywhere but for javascript [TS]

  file you were into all these cores [TS]

  issues and you also you can't cross from [TS]

  https to http and all this is like all [TS]

  these restrictions of like you know for [TS]

  various web security purposes all these [TS]

  restrictions on what [TS]

  javascript is allowed to fetch from and [TS]

  for me to be able to play podcast from [TS]

  arbitrary podcast hosts i basically can [TS]

  use this thing I could run a proxy but [TS]

  if i do that then the podcasters don't [TS]

  get unique hit information really so [TS]

  that's no good [TS]

  so it's there's a whole bunch of crappy [TS]

  reasons why I'd in practice I can't use [TS]

  the JavaScript approach just decoded the [TS]

  whole file in java script and basically [TS]

  wearing been working on decoders so I [TS]

  i'm relying on Apple I have to if if if [TS]

  podcast vbr ever going to happen [TS]

  Apple has built in 30 coders that's it [TS]

  well but hold on so a couple of [TS]

  questions here first of all let's assume [TS]

  you did desired proxy it because this [TS]

  was that important you for the web [TS]

  client [TS]

  why couldn't you proxy each request [TS]

  individually I mean it's a it's a [TS]

  credible bandwidth but is there any [TS]

  other reason why you couldn't do that so [TS]

  at least they're all of these hits our [TS]

  unique just [TS]

  coming from you and not the actual [TS]

  person that's asking for him [TS]

  the main problem with with that is that [TS]

  even if you are connected the proxy such [TS]

  that every inbound request equal one [TS]

  back and outbound request which would be [TS]

  silly in general but in this case may [TS]

  make sense right so even if you did that [TS]

  the requested still appear to be all [TS]

  coming from one IP address [TS]

  sure so and most know it's kind of a [TS]

  hotly debated topic and the podcast of [TS]

  like what counts as a download and you [TS]

  know because there's it's as as with [TS]

  most things it's complicated ahead so [TS]

  you can't just say oh well let me hit [TS]

  you get noticed work that way because [TS]

  that's it [TS]

  yeah it doesn't matter listen [TS]

  necessarily so anyway most podcast host [TS]

  have their own idea of what what damage [TS]

  account as and most of them involve the [TS]

  IP address of the source in some way so [TS]

  it might be like you know a unique [TS]

  downloads like one IP like the IP has to [TS]

  be unique within a certain time interval [TS]

  for it to count as unique download or [TS]

  something like that like their there's [TS]

  all these different tricks that people [TS]

  do but basically if all the request came [TS]

  from my single IP that was running the [TS]

  proxy it would not get people's statute [TS]

  under count that being said i actually [TS]

  already wrote and run one such proxy i [TS]

  already have this and I designed exactly [TS]

  this way and that has exactly this [TS]

  problem and the only reason that I that [TS]

  it's not really a problem that hasn't [TS]

  got me into any hot water with anybody [TS]

  is because it's hardly ever used and I [TS]

  designed it because overcast has a [TS]

  twitter card on any share link i have [TS]

  twitter cards and so that it so if you [TS]

  view that with overcast link on twitter [TS]

  website or in any other client support [TS]

  the cards which is very few of them in [TS]

  practice i show a whole little overcast [TS]

  embedded player and it works it's great [TS]

  so you know you can stream into [TS]

  timestamps it works perfectly like the [TS]

  website but tiny twigs cars require that [TS]

  all assets loaded through them must be [TS]

  served over https so i actually have [TS]

  kind of like a little little function [TS]

  like a mapping that many big podcast [TS]

  host including libsyn our hosts many of [TS]

  them have like just like a simple like [TS]

  way to you can transform their they're [TS]

  not they're insecure urls in to https [TS]

  urls like [TS]

  simple string replacement on certain [TS]

  things and everything so like some hosts [TS]

  i can just redirect with I could just [TS]

  redirect that's fine but not all hosts [TS]

  and so that so I actually run this proxy [TS]

  that does this that follows redirects [TS]

  and when it you know when it went to [TS]

  host it knows about it can just keep it [TS]

  continued along when it's not it does [TS]

  that proxy of one-to-one connection [TS]

  mapping exactly the way you think and [TS]

  the only reason it isn't a problem for [TS]

  either my bandwidth costs or people in [TS]

  anatomy is that the cards get pretty low [TS]

  usage relatively speaking i mean that [TS]

  not a lot of people play podcast that [TS]

  way as far as i know so that's the only [TS]

  reason that works and to answer glasses [TS]

  underscore in the chat room who said [TS]

  send them something like the [TS]

  x-forwarded-for header that I do send [TS]

  x-forwarded-for that is a header that [TS]

  that proxy is used to tell what they're [TS]

  fetching from the the IP of the person [TS]

  fetching it from them so it's kind of a [TS]

  way to look forward [TS]

  they're the source IP problem is you [TS]

  can't trust that so if you have a [TS]

  podcast metrics thing that is trying to [TS]

  measure like unique IPS in an honest [TS]

  fashion you can't really trust if [TS]

  somebody sends you next 44 header and [TS]

  you get a whole bunch of you get a whole [TS]

  bunch of requests from one real IP but [TS]

  that IP so i'm actually 40 these [TS]

  requests from these other 10,000 ip's [TS]

  you really can't trust that for purposes [TS]

  of stats that you tell sponsors our [TS]

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  ah so you had said before [TS]

  well if Apple just implements this then [TS]

  then you can start using it on the web [TS]

  because the html5 audio tag along [TS]

  Google's supported at cetera but what [TS]

  about your beloved windows users or you [TS]

  know next year is going to be the year [TS]

  of linux on the desktop so what about [TS]

  them [TS]

  first of all we don't have that many of [TS]

  them honestly like not a lot of people [TS]

  video use windows and and use my app or [TS]

  follow my sharing generated by my app or [TS]

  anything else and i would love to change [TS]

  that because there are other users out [TS]

  there i would love for more windows [TS]

  people to see the share links from [TS]

  overcast because that would mean that [TS]

  the share links are being spread far and [TS]

  wide and that's the whole point of the [TS]

  share links but reality is different [TS]

  reality is that they they really don't [TS]

  get much windows you look at all so [TS]

  that's that's problem number one or [TS]

  rather dodge number one where i can [TS]

  dodge this issue but same reason why I [TS]

  never test my websites in IE because I'm [TS]

  my audience my customer bases tend to [TS]

  have such incredibly low IE or whatever [TS]

  is called now what does it call now reg [TS]

  reg reg anyway the the main reason why i [TS]

  don't really need to care that much [TS]

  about this problem for other browsers [TS]

  other than like things that use apples [TS]

  built-in decoders and my own app is [TS]

  because it's only a problem for seeking [TS]

  to time stamps that haven't been [TS]

  downloaded that's it in it in all other [TS]

  ways vbr mp3 to work great already [TS]

  mentioned the same problem even if i [TS]

  added support for it that it doesn't [TS]

  matter because you have to wait for [TS]

  everyone to upgrade to an operating [TS]

  system that includes that support that [TS]

  the apple just added in practice yes but [TS]

  the amount of time i have to wait isn't [TS]

  that much especially for podcast [TS]

  listeners to a tech show like that [TS]

  that's a pretty it's a pretty upgrad [TS]

  group like the it's I we don't have to [TS]

  wait that long [TS]

  it even on the mac like I is probably [TS]

  like their upgrade curves pretty good [TS]

  but the mac upgrade girls has not been [TS]

  great like you're a year and be like [TS]

  fifty percent adoption which is better [TS]

  than windows but still [TS]

  for people who would see it again like I [TS]

  don't have to worry about using my app I [TS]

  control my app I can update my app I [TS]

  have to worry about people who are going [TS]

  to see the share links you know right [TS]

  now the showings don't have big [TS]

  audiences that they they get you some [TS]

  and some people see them and that's [TS]

  great i want to make them bigger because [TS]

  I think podcast sharing could use help [TS]

  and you know I mean everybody in [TS]

  podcasting things pocket sharing can use [TS]

  help but like I Here I am I actually [TS]

  like I actually have something that does [TS]

  help and I want I want to get bigger and [TS]

  better but the reality is even if you [TS]

  know if Apple had support suppose it [TS]

  makes it into the next major versions of [TS]

  OS x and iOS whatever you know not the [TS]

  ones coming out in a few weeks whatever [TS]

  but you know next year or in the spring [TS]

  or whatever else it will probably be [TS]

  about a year after that before i can [TS]

  reliably use it because at that point [TS]

  you know it's gonna be way more than [TS]

  half because first of all like the [TS]

  people who are seeing share links from [TS]

  social media are going to be way more [TS]

  likely be on mobile than on a desktop so [TS]

  the slower adoption curve on Mac OS is [TS]

  not going to be as big of a problem is [TS]

  going to be offset by the large [TS]

  proportion of those viewers who are [TS]

  going to be on ir on iOS and and you [TS]

  know android if if anybody can tolerate [TS]

  me who's using android which is big a [TS]

  big ask [TS]

  so you know I think iOS is I was we [TS]

  updated faster especially as Apple has [TS]

  figured out how to make people upgrade [TS]

  by adding emoji and messages tricks so [TS]

  again like I think give it a year after [TS]

  they add support and i think almost [TS]

  anybody can responsibly do this and it [TS]

  would be fine podcast listening if [TS]

  anybody doesn't know Rob walks the CEO [TS]

  of libsyn look listen as a massive [TS]

  podcast host that they've been around [TS]

  forever and they host a ton of podcast [TS]

  including this one and if you listen to [TS]

  this [TS]

  they probably host a lot of other [TS]

  podcast you listen to i'm pretty sure [TS]

  all the really FM shows are hosted their [TS]

  it so it's a very big podcast host and [TS]

  they do a podcast forget what it's [TS]

  called [TS]

  I'll put in the show notes they do a [TS]

  podcast where it's like tips for [TS]

  podcasters and then something like once [TS]

  a month the CEO of listen goes on there [TS]

  and give stats of like podcast user [TS]

  agents like what clients what platforms [TS]

  are downloading podcasts and listen is a [TS]

  pretty good source of this because they [TS]

  host so many podcasts across so many [TS]

  markets that isn't just like technically [TS]

  any sense i can give you on like how [TS]

  people use overcast is like how Apple [TS]

  nerds who know who I am mostly use [TS]

  overcast like the top podcast and [TS]

  overcast are mostly text shows they're [TS]

  not dead but if you look at the top [TS]

  podcast in the world is mostly not text [TS]

  shows so obviously overcast you so just [TS]

  not representative of all podcasters out [TS]

  there but listen stats are really close [TS]

  I think I i would say listen stats are [TS]

  probably the best representation we have [TS]

  outside of apple and there are talking [TS]

  of like you know how podcasters behave [TS]

  in mass what the overall market looks [TS]

  like and the stats they give I listen [TS]

  and take notes every month and so he'll [TS]

  make a split up here so the most recent [TS]

  ones except for june seventy-seven [TS]

  percent of listens on mobile devices and [TS]

  every month that number increases so [TS]

  already very mobile heavy iOS to Android [TS]

  is a little little over three two one [TS]

  and that that reaches going down and [TS]

  read is becoming more popular now [TS]

  because people are finally building in [TS]

  like android vendors like Samsung [TS]

  finally building in podcast clients that [TS]

  they weren't for a long time and so [TS]

  that's that's adding a lot to the [TS]

  Android side but so basically but you [TS]

  still have liked more than three times [TS]

  as many people listening iOS and Android [TS]

  and and only like twenty two percent of [TS]

  listeners listening on computers so this [TS]

  is a very mobile heavy market and a very [TS]

  iOS heavy market so that's why I think [TS]

  it's fairly responsible for a lot of [TS]

  podcasters especially if you are in like [TS]

  the apple tech world like we are we are [TS]

  audience is going to be even more skewed [TS]

  towards recent apple platforms i think [TS]

  one year after that support to this it's [TS]

  totally safe to do and I might even do [TS]

  it sooner that you feel optimistic about [TS]

  them actually adding support or do you [TS]

  feel like it's going to be two years [TS]

  before this bug is closed as behaves [TS]

  correctly [TS]

  when I filed this bug in my bug reporter [TS]

  it was next to two other bugs that have [TS]

  been open forever my i'm lucky if i get [TS]

  a response that I don't find that many [TS]

  bugs with apple because the the the [TS]

  effort on my side to feedback and [TS]

  potential benefit i will get from that [TS]

  ratio is so terrible like that you know [TS]

  this took the better part of two days to [TS]

  do things to do research properly to [TS]

  like figure out that Apple didn't even [TS]

  support these tags at all you know I [TS]

  thought they were supporting least the [TS]

  crappy one they supported none of them [TS]

  to anyone to to modify my these test [TS]

  files to like you know right these tags [TS]

  properly everything took a lot of work [TS]

  to write a big turtle bug report it give [TS]

  proper test coverage and everything it [TS]

  takes a lot of time a lot of work and [TS]

  usually I file bugs and they go nowhere [TS]

  if i'm lucky they might be closed as a [TS]

  duplicate and when they're closed a [TS]

  duplicate I believe I then lose any [TS]

  visibility on that I forget what the [TS]

  Destiny change the reason anyway so the [TS]

  feedback loop is terrible for filing [TS]

  bugs for Apple I you know people who [TS]

  people who do it are good people they [TS]

  probably floss you know that they're [TS]

  probably very good people [TS]

  I i have a hard time doing it most of [TS]

  the time because again like I i see what [TS]

  happens with the few but i do file and [TS]

  they just they sit around forever and [TS]

  they don't even get close [TS]

  it's not it and and the few that do that [TS]

  closed are often closed in a way that i [TS]

  consider invalid like you know that [TS]

  those they'll be still do something like [TS]

  wearing clothes unless you tell us you [TS]

  know really soon that this is still [TS]

  happening on the news built of iOS four [TS]

  a bug that I filed like you know six [TS]

  months ago that is easily testable like [TS]

  that they they clearly have a wide [TS]

  variety of quality of people who go [TS]

  through the bug reports and many of them [TS]

  clearly just want to close as many as [TS]

  possible that actually do any work like [TS]

  the incentives are wrong there are you [TS]

  saying you don't floss [TS]

  so anyway uh I using file bugs because [TS]

  I've had a very I've had a poor history [TS]

  of of any response from apple on bugs [TS]

  but this time i find it because i [TS]

  figured basically nothing else I can do [TS]

  I can't work around this like I i [TS]

  mentioned the JavaScript and I tried [TS]

  doing the javascript thing but you know [TS]

  cause of all the cores restrictions it [TS]

  and it makes it pretty much impossible [TS]

  to use for an arbitrary set of hosts [TS]

  that you don't control most of which [TS]

  don't send course permission headers [TS]

  already so that's a non-starter [TS]

  you know i could write my own decoder in [TS]

  my app that can calculate these offsets [TS]

  but that's only one app and so for [TS]

  something to make something like even [TS]

  even our podcast that you would think [TS]

  you know what percentage of people who [TS]

  download our podcast you can listen and [TS]

  overcast and a lot of people would [TS]

  probably guess it's a pretty high ratio [TS]

  and it is compared to overcast global [TS]

  ratio I haven't looked recently but i [TS]

  think it's something like sixty percent [TS]

  that's still forty percent of our [TS]

  listeners who don't listen overcast who [TS]

  wouldn't have who would need [TS]

  compatibility in this way you know for [TS]

  for seeking and streams i basically the [TS]

  reason find this bug is that it's my [TS]

  last hope to get BTR mp3's to be a thing [TS]

  I think that'd be great if they were [TS]

  thing I think it's ridiculous that they [TS]

  aren't of thing yet but if there's any [TS]

  hope of them being a thing it's [TS]

  basically on Apple to do because if [TS]

  apple doesn't do it nobody else can and [TS]

  nobody else will [TS]

  did you make a strong recommendation of [TS]

  implement a specific one of these [TS]

  because I if you just said oh here all [TS]

  these things you don't support i can [TS]

  imagine i'm supporting like that [TS]

  terrible one that only it gives you a [TS]

  hundred points and then being like done [TS]

  closed fixed [TS]

  yeah you know that my report actually [TS]

  reads a lot like the blog post i wrote [TS]

  the book report first and edit to be a [TS]

  blog post but basically it's it's a you [TS]

  know similar format and I I recommended [TS]

  you know I i gave three options and I [TS]

  said you know you don't post any of [TS]

  these right now this old one is not is [TS]

  not precise enough don't use this time I [TS]

  and so I said basically the MLT tag will [TS]

  be the ideal one to do because it can be [TS]

  arbitrary length arbitrary-precision so [TS]

  that's the ideal one if you only pick [TS]

  one pick that one [TS]

  the farm for bri tag that's like 1.3 [TS]

  kilobytes worth of stuff like that's a [TS]

  good second choice like if you if you do [TS]

  that i'll be happy but the best one to [TS]

  do will be the MLT tag [TS]

  I wonder if they don't support it not [TS]

  out of laziness because like you said [TS]

  they are actually parsing the durations [TS]

  out of them but for kind of for the same [TS]

  reason related to something else set [TS]

  another why why webhost can't trust [TS]

  x-forwarded-for maybe they're afraid is [TS]

  going to people with garbage data and [TS]

  then they're afraid all I can expose [TS]

  you know exploits in there like a buffer [TS]

  of lower something because they put [TS]

  crazy offsets in there and then trigger [TS]

  but who knows i don't know that type of [TS]

  thing where it is or they just don't [TS]

  trust the the encoders to put good data [TS]

  in there they don't want to try to read [TS]

  garbage data these are solvable problems [TS]

  like you know make your your thing not [TS]

  have silly buffer overflows and sanity [TS]

  check the the offsets in the map and [TS]

  make sure they seem reasonable before [TS]

  blindly following may be disregarded it [TS]

  looks like line noise but I do wonder if [TS]

  someone did have to write the code pull [TS]

  these durations out of there [TS]

  why do they do that and like while I'm [TS]

  in there why don't just actually parse [TS]

  this whole format and just implemented [TS]

  you know so I mean your concerns are [TS]

  that are totally valid and I can I can I [TS]

  can completely understand how like it [TS]

  wouldn't surprise me at all if if there [TS]

  was an engineering meeting at Apple some [TS]

  ridiculous amount of time ago like [TS]

  somebody was like yeah you know what we [TS]

  we could parse these things out but the [TS]

  data might be wrong and if we just do [TS]

  this like you know percentage of time to [TS]

  byte offset thing that we kind of like [TS]

  an approximation like that'll be close [TS]

  enough and it will be consistent and so [TS]

  if there is you know there's a school of [TS]

  thought that says like you should know [TS]

  you you should override the the stupid [TS]

  mp3 encoder because who knows what [TS]

  garbage and you're gonna get there and [TS]

  you could just do your thing but and and [TS]

  you know just make it so that it works [TS]

  it works its kind of clothes for short [TS]

  songs and then it doesn't matter anymore [TS]

  that's good enough for scrubber work [TS]

  like that they want the scrubber like [TS]

  when you're removing scar around anyway [TS]

  it's probably like an inch on some [TS]

  webpages you can't tell if it's like [TS]

  what pixels on forever but for your [TS]

  specific use case which is no no I'm not [TS]

  had someone's not dragging the scrubber [TS]

  here i'm putting it off set in the URL [TS]

  down to the second i want that precision [TS]

  out of it [TS]

  hey YouTube does it you should do it too [TS]

  exactly yeah like so you know that there [TS]

  is an argument to be made there but you [TS]

  know a they're already reading the [TS]

  duration of these tax even if they have [TS]

  the whole file they still read the [TS]

  duration from that header and so if you [TS]

  put garbage generation as it did during [TS]

  testing it says alright yeah sure this [TS]

  file isn't you know nine minutes long as [TS]

  that of an hour like it's happy to use [TS]

  that value so it's already trusting it [TS]

  on some level also like mp3 encoder [TS]

  don't change that much like they it's [TS]

  there's very few that are actually in [TS]

  active use today and they all right good [TS]

  data like this isn't nice [TS]

  b7 anymore like we we have solved the [TS]

  mp3 encoder problem mp3 encoder is work [TS]

  and they work well and there are next no [TS]

  one else besides me is going on with a [TS]

  hex editor messing with these values [TS]

  like that here I can't like total [TS]

  garbage on a regular basis so I i think [TS]

  what's what's more likely to have [TS]

  happened is that maybe these decoders [TS]

  were written a very long time ago maybe [TS]

  around that time frame when the world of [TS]

  mp3 was still very much in flux and you [TS]

  had crappy encoders in like the late [TS]

  nineties and maybe they just haven't [TS]

  revisited since then because there [TS]

  wasn't a reason to that is the move that [TS]

  is the way more likely explanation for [TS]

  this is like this is very old code that [TS]

  no one had any justification of touch [TS]

  for a long time it works it well enough [TS]

  so fine and that's why I think [TS]

  ultimately it probably won't get done [TS]

  because I would be surprised if anybody [TS]

  was really motivated to devote you know [TS]

  a limited people have limited time so [TS]

  who's going to devote time to this out [TS]

  of there like engineering time budget [TS]

  inside Apple when they might have more [TS]

  pressing things to worry about with like [TS]

  supporting the new bluetooth headphones [TS]

  the next iphone you know I think that if [TS]

  anything else baby somebody working on [TS]

  is probably more important than this to [TS]

  apples overall corporate goals and SP [TS]

  just supposed to be an AAC anyway it's [TS]

  the future just use a different standard [TS]

  format and those uh the the offset [TS]

  things that can be all the front of the [TS]

  file [TS]

  yeah I love that magnetars thread that [TS]

  just use a different format does not [TS]

  solve all your problems that you know is [TS]

  the best yeah all things you think you [TS]

  can for example doesn't get your own [TS]

  doesn't solve all your problems and then [TS]

  I guess make every encoder on the planet [TS]

  understand your new container format [TS]

  will be fine [TS]

  yeah this has been a lot of time on this [TS]

  topic I'm sorry to everybody who doesn't [TS]

  care [TS]

  you probably not long ago but we [TS]

  actually got a decent response on other [TS]

  people actually enjoy hearing hearing [TS]

  about all this crap I'm very surprised [TS]

  by that actually but i guess our [TS]

  listeners are are both cooler and [TS]

  geekier than I then I would have assumed [TS]

  they were definitely cooler here i'm not [TS]

  sure we also sponsor this week by [TS]

  tracker tracker makes losing things a [TS]

  thing of the past go to the tracker com [TS]

  right now that the tracker com enter [TS]

  promo code ATP for thirty percent off [TS]

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  packers a coin-sized device that locates [TS]

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  anything you want it's a little thing [TS]

  you attached to anything in seconds use [TS]

  pear tracker to your phone and you [TS]

  attach anything I communicate over [TS]

  bluetooth and you can find precise [TS]

  location with a tap of a button so [TS]

  here's how this works [TS]

  the tractor itself is quite shipping it [TS]

  is it has on it a button and so when you [TS]

  push that button you can locate your [TS]

  phone so it works that direction [TS]

  you can also launch the app on your [TS]

  phone to locate whatever you have [TS]

  attached the tracker too so it's great [TS]

  for anything you lose your keys it's [TS]

  your keys or a big one obviously you [TS]

  know your backpack maybe like your purse [TS]

  bags computers whatever else things you [TS]

  have to find an object you have to find [TS]

  in in your home or are around around the [TS]

  workplace whatever else attached tracker [TS]

  to it you can find it very very easily [TS]

  with your phone you can also have said [TS]

  use a tracker in Reverse push the button [TS]

  trackr and your phone makes a beep sound [TS]

  even if the speaker is switched to [TS]

  silent mode so pretty great with over [TS]

  1.5 million devices tracker has the [TS]

  largest crowd gps network in the world [TS]

  you're lost item actually shows up on a [TS]

  map even miles away [TS]

  never lose anything again with trackir [TS]

  listeners of our show getting special [TS]

  just kind of thirty percent off their [TS]

  entire order go to the that's th e [TS]

  tracker dot com the tracker com enter [TS]

  promo code ATP the hardest thing you'll [TS]

  ever find is the website then you'll be [TS]

  done the tracker com / ATP for thirty [TS]

  percent off your entire order thanks a [TS]

  lot to track for sponsoring our show [TS]

  so John if the cell signal at your house [TS]

  is so crappy why not and why not enable [TS]

  Wi-Fi calling and solve all your [TS]

  problems [TS]

  the first reason I didn't enable this is [TS]

  I didn't think my carrier supported it [TS]

  but I was just looking at the wrong [TS]

  place in settings for some reason I had [TS]

  in my head that just ended only a tease [TS]

  apart this is not verizon but not [TS]

  verizon sports too [TS]

  of course I've never gotten where the [TS]

  setting is but anyway it's in there [TS]

  somewhere you can find it but the second [TS]

  thing is when I turned it on and like [TS]

  okay alternate wanna give it a try it [TS]

  makes you enter your physical address [TS]

  because once you're on Wi-Fi calling if [TS]

  you call 911 911 can immediately tell [TS]

  where you are because you're you're [TS]

  coming from the internet [TS]

  essentially they can get a location for [TS]

  you which is kinda weird because you can [TS]

  get locations from Wi-Fi base station [TS]

  and everything a lot of things use a and [TS]

  use those that big map of base station [TS]

  mac addresses physical locations and [TS]

  stuff to help a location awareness but [TS]

  anyway does what iOS says please enter a [TS]

  physical location so when you call 911 [TS]

  if you can't if you're too injured to [TS]

  speak into the phone or whatever [TS]

  don't worry about that will come to this [TS]

  address but of course that means that if [TS]

  you go someplace else and you're on [TS]

  Wi-Fi so you're working your own Wi-Fi [TS]

  and you call 911 and don't get a chance [TS]

  to tell them where you are they gonna go [TS]

  to your house [TS]

  that's my understanding anyway of what [TS]

  this message telling me after this [TS]

  address here if you call 911 this is [TS]

  where people go to but I didn't enable [TS]

  it because I'm like well then i have to [TS]

  remember to turn off Wi-Fi calling when [TS]

  i leave my house because then if i call [TS]

  911 people go to my house instead of [TS]

  where I am so that's one reason why i [TS]

  didn't believe in on the second reason [TS]

  is this is the stupidest reason that the [TS]

  reason i think is only vaguely so I but [TS]

  this reason is really done but [TS]

  nevertheless is a reason everyone has [TS]

  their reasons this is mine [TS]

  it changes the thing that appears in the [TS]

  status bar to make some ugly thing that [TS]

  says like VZW whatever it doesn't say [TS]

  like the horizon [TS]

  fit Wi-Fi fan symbol it says different [TS]

  words like in all caps and looks away i [TS]

  don't like it that's a reason like I can [TS]

  understand even though i think it's a [TS]

  little ridiculous the whole address [TS]

  thing fine whatever but because you [TS]

  don't want to look at VZW in your status [TS]

  bar that's your reason you you try to [TS]

  turn it on and see what it does to your [TS]

  status bar i use AT&T like a gentleman [TS]

  and so it says AT&T Wi-Fi but it gets [TS]

  rid of the fan thing isn't it or maybe [TS]

  know anyway it changes what's the status [TS]

  bar I didn't like it [TS]

  location 1 is that is the larger reason [TS]

  but I was kind of glad that I had a [TS]

  legit reason why did it look at that I [TS]

  could status bar anymore [TS]

  it would be nice if like I was intense [TS]

  movie would be and is enhancing would be [TS]

  only used Wi-Fi calling when connected [TS]

  to this base station i would like that [TS]

  setting don't mean because then I could [TS]

  say use Wi-Fi calling when connected to [TS]

  my home base station but never anyplace [TS]

  else and they don't have to worry about [TS]

  this then i get my home address to my [TS]

  home base station but no and anyway [TS]

  after I made the decision I made a [TS]

  couple of successful voice coil calls [TS]

  from my house where people could [TS]

  actually hear my voice so maybe a [TS]

  verizon loves me for coming back to them [TS]

  and not using this filthy Internet [TS]

  calling ok alright well I don't even [TS]

  know what to make of that that he asked [TS]

  that's moving on Graham Spencer's as [TS]

  indicated that Google and Facebook and [TS]

  others also do a charity match on bug [TS]

  bounties so just FYI and did it before [TS]

  Apple like it [TS]

  most people didn't write into a to gloat [TS]

  about how all these other companies that [TS]

  have been horrible but they totally did [TS]

  anybody actually topics tonight or is [TS]

  this all follow-up we're getting there [TS]

  that there's topics down there believe [TS]

  me don't worry we gotta bring another [TS]

  podcast like two days I don't know that [TS]

  that's true to its somebody had to go [TS]

  all deep on the mp3 stuff but actually [TS]

  it's very entertaining and I enjoyed it [TS]

  so I shouldn't give you a hard time any [TS]

  imagine how much dead space we have and [TS]

  it like the topic and everything this [TS]

  week if I didn't do it [TS]

  it's fair you don't know what's lurking [TS]

  down there and topics there's all sorts [TS]

  of stuff is there more about evil [TS]

  yes there is actually really yes I'm so [TS]

  excited [TS]

  alright well hopefully will run long [TS]

  enough that we won't get there I mean [TS]

  anyway let me tell you about my imac [TS]

  yeah it has it it has been rebooted I [TS]

  did it on purpose [TS]

  it ran 21 days on the stock ram without [TS]

  a UPS and without a GPS I've gotten in [TS]

  contact with max lwo dude [TS]

  owc whatever they call themselves and [TS]

  have requested and i'm told that I'm [TS]

  receiving a RMA return merchandise [TS]

  authorization so I think that stands for [TS]

  you i think what they're doing is [TS]

  sending me a box to send the ran back in [TS]

  and they said they will replace it [TS]

  posthaste [TS]

  I have plugged into the UPS i have [TS]

  pulled the UPS power and seen the imax [TS]

  day on for at least long enough to make [TS]

  me feel better about myself i did not [TS]

  leave it disconnected long enough to see [TS]

  whether or not the technology would be [TS]

  smart enough to shut itself down but i [TS]

  believe i have those settings squared [TS]

  away in this technology so it should [TS]

  shut itself down gracefully the imac [TS]

  won't but you know I'm used to that this [TS]

  point anyway hail so anyway I i am [TS]

  running still on the eight gigs of stock [TS]

  ram until I receive my new new batch of [TS]

  owc ram i will try that if that doesn't [TS]

  work then i will probably very politely [TS]

  but very sternly ask for my money back [TS]

  and get crucial ram which the entire [TS]

  Internet has written to tell me is the [TS]

  only ram i should ever really buy and so [TS]

  I think crucial buyers any different ram [TS]

  the notary set forget someone at one [TS]

  point sent me a long email telling me [TS]

  about the different bins of who buys the [TS]

  good chips versus the cheaper chips and [TS]

  I think Chris was in the same thing with [TS]

  that bc but anyway I've bought OBC ran [TS]

  for years and like i said i think the [TS]

  last time i had owc thing go bad [TS]

  the chip because my computer is ancient [TS]

  the chip the the the ram the dam was [TS]

  like four years old five years old maybe [TS]

  was six years old like whatever it is I [TS]

  just I just assume like well it's so old [TS]

  whatever warranty or whatever they had [TS]

  it must be completely gone by now but i [TS]

  just called not acceptable son you know [TS]

  that's it [TS]

  like I don't know if they have like a [TS]

  forever lifetime of this Ram everyone's [TS]

  bad they'll just replace it forever and [TS]

  ever and I know it's a hassle to return [TS]

  if you have to keep returning it's a [TS]

  pain but I've had them last for years [TS]

  and years and then go bad years later [TS]

  and then [TS]

  send me a new one it's things like [TS]

  miraculously like try doing that with [TS]

  the hard drive for example him a hard [TS]

  drive died after six years can I get a [TS]

  new one haha nothing like almost all ram [TS]

  has a lifetime guarantee like almost all [TS]

  around that you would buy separately [TS]

  from computer like yourself [TS]

  they almost all have lifetime guarantees [TS]

  but it's you know it's up to the [TS]

  retailer or the manufacturer to make [TS]

  that a good or bad experience if you [TS]

  actually have to clean it and I too have [TS]

  had only good experiences with obviously [TS]

  rama i don't use anymore now I just by [TS]

  my computer with my friend from apple [TS]

  because I'd rather not deal with anymore [TS]

  and the odbc ram when i was using it [TS]

  because up until like two years ago was [TS]

  always great i had to I had to return it [TS]

  one time and that was you know one time [TS]

  in something like eight years of using [TS]

  it i think it's pretty good yeah and I [TS]

  mean they've been really good about it [TS]

  so far I didn't expressly reach out to [TS]

  them they reached out to me at twitter [TS]

  i'm not entirely clear how they caught [TS]

  wind of the fact that I was having [TS]

  issues but they just basically said hey [TS]

  can you send us an email and we'll talk [TS]

  about it and I said hey here's the [TS]

  situation and I spelled it out and said [TS]

  you know it did it had been rebooting [TS]

  every week look at this it's now running [TS]

  for 20-some days at this point I feel [TS]

  like it's the ram so they said yeah [TS]

  you're probably right i will get you in [TS]

  RNA and we will replace it immediately [TS]

  I don't know how they heard about this I [TS]

  just I just told 80,000 people about it [TS]

  for a month and somebody told them well [TS]

  but what I mean is I don't recall having [TS]

  seen anyone like mention me and them on [TS]

  Twitter maybe that did happen i just [TS]

  missed it but it seemed like they came [TS]

  out of the woodwork as opposed to [TS]

  somebody tagging them to to kind of wave [TS]

  the flag in their face and say hey [TS]

  should pay attention over here so i'm [TS]

  not sure how that came to be but you [TS]

  know hey I'm happy that they reached out [TS]

  i'm happy that they seem to be more than [TS]

  happy to replace the ram because I mean [TS]

  like you were saying earlier i bought [TS]

  this room in january i looked up my [TS]

  order number and i forget when I was in [TS]

  January but it's still january i mean [TS]

  that was somewhat long ago and I guess [TS]

  you know most things have a year [TS]

  warranty but I don't know it it it's [TS]

  nice of them to not fight me on it [TS]

  because I'm used to most retailers being [TS]

  like well are you sure it's the rain [TS]

  manish take it to apple for stats etc [TS]

  and they were like no no send it back [TS]

  we'll get your ram so I said you didn't [TS]

  have to wait for someone to hear it into [TS]

  it you could have just called them on [TS]

  the phone all you gotta do is tell them [TS]

  you have bad ram and just like last time [TS]

  I call from like I said it was years [TS]

  after i bought it i said i've got a bad [TS]

  dream it's okay read the serial number [TS]

  ok we'll send you a box like that was it [TS]

  there was not even give them a reason it [TS]

  was dead [TS]

  yeah and i truly hand on heart was [TS]

  planning on calling sometime this week [TS]

  and then right as i decided no it's been [TS]

  long enough i'm happy while not happy [TS]

  that i am satisfied with my my [TS]

  scientific experiment that around that [TS]

  time when I'd finally concluded that was [TS]

  the case that's when they reached out [TS]

  were like hey what's happening so that [TS]

  was my plan [TS]

  Marco I am deeply sorry but I have to [TS]

  ask john tell me about tivo lifetime [TS]

  service please respond to this week by [TS]

  automatic the small adapter that turns [TS]

  your clunker into a smarter connected [TS]

  car go to automatic calm / ATP for more [TS]

  info [TS]

  automatic has just launched the [TS]

  automatic pro their new unlimited 3g car [TS]

  adapter with no monthly fees and no [TS]

  subscription no service charges you just [TS]

  pay once up front for the automatic pro [TS]

  and you don't pay anything per month to [TS]

  use their services and their abilities [TS]

  now the automatic pro includes always [TS]

  their 3g connectivity to let you know [TS]

  where your vehicle is parked at any time [TS]

  and let you track your vehicle in case [TS]

  of theft and of course is build on what [TS]

  automatic has been doing for years [TS]

  it works with if this then that for [TS]

  endless customization taking your car [TS]

  the rest of your life you can do things [TS]

  like automatically turn on your nest [TS]

  thermostats when you're nearing your [TS]

  home and of course tons of other [TS]

  abilities that you can do using it this [TS]

  than that and the automatic API in [TS]

  addition of course automatic provides [TS]

  the built-in functions they always have [TS]

  things like gas mileage tracking [TS]

  reaching your goals 484 fuel economy [TS]

  tracking your expenses for businesses so [TS]

  think it image of apps such as [TS]

  concurrent Expensify to be able to track [TS]

  costs associated with your driving there [TS]

  are so much you can do with automatic [TS]

  and of course now with automatic pro it [TS]

  has always on 3g connectivity which [TS]

  makes so many of these things even [TS]

  better and possible automatic can also [TS]

  call for help in case of a crash it [TS]

  detects severe accidents and if you [TS]

  aren't able to respond [TS]

  a train responder will call for help [TS]

  because you can't no automatic is [TS]

  normally a hundred and twenty nine [TS]

  ninety five foot and use our exclusive [TS]

  offer code ATP you'll save twenty bucks [TS]

  so it makes it about a hundred and ten [TS]

  dollars great deal [TS]

  no monthly fees after that you again you [TS]

  buy it up front and that's it you don't [TS]

  pay per month to use these services to [TS]

  go to automatic calm / ATP for more [TS]

  information and use offer code ATP to [TS]

  save twenty dollars off the regular [TS]

  purchase price thanks a lot to automatic [TS]

  the smart car adapter for sponsoring our [TS]

  show once again [TS]

  ah John go ahead and tell us about 20 [TS]

  your saved by real-time follow-up [TS]

  someone just tweeted at me that from the [TS]

  verizon Wi-Fi calling fact when using [TS]

  Wi-Fi calling 911 calls will always try [TS]

  cellular service in the local market [TS]

  first even when the device is an [TS]

  airplane mode or cellular services off [TS]

  so I don't know [TS]

  now i'm back to just the status bar I [TS]

  suppose which is a silly reason I'll [TS]

  think about it i'll think about it i [TS]

  don't like getting phone calls at home [TS]

  anyway and i have lined up to take a [TS]

  screenshot of that status bar we can [TS]

  mark against which the show are to its [TS]

  you can just see what a horrid actually [TS]

  is alright tivo the news today about [TS]

  tivo not really that big news but uh [TS]

  apparently tivo is discontinuing a [TS]

  service for the tivo series 10 series [TS]

  one that was one introduced in 1999 and [TS]

  what their what they mean by [TS]

  discontinuing is it will no longer get [TS]

  any guide updates or anything so you can [TS]

  it'll you know you can still watch shows [TS]

  that are recorded on it but you can't [TS]

  recording new ones because I don't know [TS]

  anything is on and it doesn't work like [TS]

  a VCR we can do manually anyway and it's [TS]

  because they're changing the format of [TS]

  the guy data probably modernizing and in [TS]

  some way that we would be horrified to [TS]

  learn about if we knew exactly what they [TS]

  were feeding because of these teams [TS]

  here's one here's one was an analog [TS]

  device that could have recorded video [TS]

  from analog sources it didn't it was the [TS]

  pre-digital and of course standard def [TS]

  is all analog I didn't know that you [TS]

  could still use achieve a serious one I [TS]

  thought they were already non-functional [TS]

  entirely [TS]

  apparently can't get like semaphore [TS]

  flags like how does that even work [TS]

  if you have a TV series 1 and your [TS]

  sixteen-year-old hard drive or maybe a [TS]

  hard drive you replace it because you [TS]

  into third party hard drive replacement [TS]

  or whatever we're still using it to [TS]

  recall to add to record an expander does [TS]

  TV there terminating your service this [TS]

  is even if you bought quote-unquote [TS]

  lifetime service that's what the story [TS]

  about this the trees like oh I want [TS]

  lifetime service but now you know I'm [TS]

  still alive and the box is still alive [TS]

  but somehow the services ending so the [TS]

  tweet was 20 series one lifetime and [TS]

  scare quotes service last about 16 years [TS]

  and for this inconvenience tivo is [TS]

  offering your $75 prepaid Visa card so [TS]

  you get 75 box of you if you held on and [TS]

  kept using your turbo series 1 for this [TS]

  long and I say there are 3500 of the [TS]

  series one stone use which is a small [TS]

  number but you know anyway I can't [TS]

  believe that there wasn't some fine [TS]

  print written to the lifetime service [TS]

  that says after 16 years we reserve the [TS]

  right to turn off the service maybe you [TS]

  should buy a new DVR but I salute the [TS]

  people are out there still using it [TS]

  I never expected lifetime survive life [TS]

  controls an almighty boxes but I [TS]

  replaced the boxes long before i get to [TS]

  the lifetime service thing we used to be [TS]

  better i letting you transferred [TS]

  lifetime service from some nominal fee [TS]

  or free to another device to encourage [TS]

  you to upgrade or whatever but those [TS]

  days are mostly gone the deal something [TS]

  getting worse [TS]

  anyway I just thought this was funny [TS]

  that they're actually while they're [TS]

  still using it a series 1 DVR I don't [TS]

  think I have any piece of electronics in [TS]

  my house that is 16 years old and still [TS]

  working including smoke detectors [TS]

  telephones microwave maybe I think my as [TS]

  discussed generation reconcile with [TS]

  oversized microwave maybe more than 16 [TS]

  years old but I should look at the date [TS]

  on the back of I should see exactly how [TS]

  old that it's better than that no DVR so [TS]

  that's for sure [TS]

  fair enough we had spoken a few episodes [TS]

  ago [TS]

  ago [TS]

  though about Twitter verification [TS]

  because all three of us and verified and [TS]

  a friend of the show brand-new has been [TS]

  verified now in the last week or so and [TS]

  apparently it's made everything in men [TS]

  sleep better [TS]

  Brianna tweeted a couple days ago to [TS]

  record this fact i have not seen a [TS]

  single death threat or rape threats [TS]

  since being verified and getting the [TS]

  quote quality filter quote everyone [TS]

  should have this funny how that works [TS]

  yeah that's exactly what I mean like [TS]

  like we we talked last time like I joked [TS]

  like we have computers now like the any [TS]

  could be any computational overhead of [TS]

  offering this to everybody like the idea [TS]

  that's totally worth it and we sense [TS]

  heard a little bit more discussion from [TS]

  various other places about it it seems [TS]

  like the the gist of the problem here is [TS]

  not that turn this on one be [TS]

  computationally expensive for everybody [TS]

  it's it's that Twitter it fundamentally [TS]

  twitter is very very tied to the idea [TS]

  internally politically that this should [TS]

  be this kind of open platform and that [TS]

  there should be no filters by default [TS]

  and that's a really nice Theory so is [TS]

  communism but in practice these things [TS]

  don't look quite that well you know like [TS]

  it is really ideal and that would be [TS]

  nice and it worked that way for awhile [TS]

  and that's cool but you know the reality [TS]

  is the harassment problem is very big [TS]

  and very real and that wonderful world [TS]

  where anybody could be anybody in it and [TS]

  they would see it by default i think [TS]

  that's a nice idea like blog comments [TS]

  like that's a nice idea but you know in [TS]

  practice it doesn't work in practice [TS]

  lots of problems with that so I maintain [TS]

  that this should know that the the [TS]

  quality filter feature that is available [TS]

  to verify Twitter accounts not only [TS]

  should be available to everybody but i'd [TS]

  even say it should be on by default we [TS]

  have not agree with that yeah I don't [TS]

  know why you wouldn't have it on by [TS]

  default i guess the idea that maybe the [TS]

  filter is bad and things will [TS]

  accidentally get filtered out but like [TS]

  it's not like you [TS]

  it's like gmail has spam filtering off [TS]

  by default of course right yeah [TS]

  sometimes things end up in your spam [TS]

  folder when they shouldn't be in there [TS]

  but like no one would say the correct [TS]

  default is off [TS]

  yeah I don't get it finally in follow-up [TS]

  and over an hour in a few people have [TS]

  taken to task for saying in the last [TS]

  episode of me was one reason episodes [TS]

  that I was not satisfied with apples [TS]

  diversity numbers particularly with [TS]

  ethnicities and and how many white [TS]

  employees apple has as opposed to other [TS]

  races and what I said was you know hey [TS]

  this is really unfortunate or in and it [TS]

  looks like as I look at these numbers [TS]

  again fifty-six percent of apples white [TS]

  as a self-report today and a lot of [TS]

  people said in various degrees of [TS]

  obnoxiousness what's the appropriate [TS]

  amount of diversity because the country [TS]

  is I don't have those numbers in front [TS]

  of me but something like sixty or [TS]

  seventy percent white so if they're less [TS]

  white than America then what's the [TS]

  problem and I don't have any simple [TS]

  answer for that it's it's something I [TS]

  hadn't considered and it is a fair point [TS]

  but i would i would point out that not [TS]

  all of apple's in America and so that [TS]

  probably should be factored in as well [TS]

  but i think the the biggest thing to me [TS]

  was that Apple seems to have made not a [TS]

  lot of change from just a couple of [TS]

  years ago when they started reporting [TS]

  this which I admire they didn't make [TS]

  that much change yet it seems like the [TS]

  thing that was completely unacceptable [TS]

  couple a couple years ago is now look at [TS]

  us and how wonderful we are and that [TS]

  just seems kind of weird to me i don't [TS]

  know if you guys had any thoughts on [TS]

  this but that that's basically the thing [TS]

  that I still stand by which is it hasn't [TS]

  gotten that much better why are we [TS]

  really celebrating it like it's [TS]

  completely turned around so before we [TS]

  let John tell us the truth and why this [TS]

  is you know before the John basically [TS]

  like rock this and and do everything [TS]

  correctly i will just kind of speak for [TS]

  for myself and for i think a lot of [TS]

  people who listen to this kind of stuff [TS]

  and you see these kind of things I know [TS]

  that be having been just in the in the [TS]

  area of people discussing this for a [TS]

  while now I know now that it is like it [TS]

  is [TS]

  never that simple and so it like when [TS]

  you when you throw a stat like well you [TS]

  know America's x percent white and so [TS]

  that's fine like it is usually not that [TS]

  simple and so I know to keep my mouth [TS]

  shut with things like that because I [TS]

  know like I hear someone that I'd be [TS]

  like yeah that might make logical sense [TS]

  when you read it like 140 characters but [TS]

  I bet there's more to the issue than [TS]

  that and so it's important when you are [TS]

  responding to people not UKC but youyou [TS]

  the public and I'm talking myself to [TS]

  like don't jump to a conclusion that [TS]

  because chances are the issue is way [TS]

  more complicated than that [TS]

  so John tell us why I was gonna start [TS]

  getting anything but i'm i'm basically [TS]

  on what you just said that's a that's [TS]

  something I always notice on Twitter [TS]

  when we all notice that to some degree [TS]

  or another whether we're doing it [TS]

  ourselves we see other people doing it [TS]

  where people will start from the premise [TS]

  and then start throwing out facts and [TS]

  support of that and it's fine right [TS]

  because why wouldn't you you know you [TS]

  this is what you think and so you will [TS]

  find facts that support what you think [TS]

  of when you will list those facts but so [TS]

  is important to kind of ask yourself why [TS]

  like why am i seeking out the fact that [TS]

  i can find that align with this thing [TS]

  that I already think like am I actually [TS]

  thinking about the situation where I [TS]

  merely just trying to find something [TS]

  that was formerly so that maybe I mean [TS]

  it's you know it's like university but [TS]

  perhaps someone who was telling Casey [TS]

  hey you you said this percentage is bad [TS]

  but it's about the ratio of the you know [TS]

  the people united states its you have to [TS]

  go look up the ratio of the people [TS]

  United States you could do is this a bad [TS]

  example because they're probably [TS]

  completely intellectually honest but a [TS]

  lot of times it's easy to see an issue [TS]

  come up and people immediately go [TS]

  looking for something making throughout [TS]

  that supports their thing never really [TS]

  asking why am I so desperate to find [TS]

  things to that support this rather than [TS]

  you know looking at the looking at the [TS]

  issue from first principles are [TS]

  understanding that the wider context [TS]

  because they'll always be things [TS]

  especially you know statistics that can [TS]

  help support one side of the other but [TS]

  if you're only ever looking for and [TS]

  saying repeatedly to anyone who mentions [TS]

  anything about the topic [TS]

  the few facts you have in your back [TS]

  pocket that support the one thing that [TS]

  you care about you probably are missing [TS]

  the larger issue and what you really [TS]

  missing more is why is it so important [TS]

  to you that your current view of this [TS]

  exactly correct [TS]

  so anyway as for the specific stats i [TS]

  don't know i thought the stats were just [TS]

  us only so i think their percentages for [TS]

  you know the white employees that are [TS]

  actually accurate to the United States [TS]

  the United States has that percentage of [TS]

  the population and that's their you know [TS]

  so i thought that was an apt comparison [TS]

  but like Marco said it's never quite [TS]

  that simple because you know especially [TS]

  with statistics you can [TS]

  they're taking like all their employees [TS]

  right and all us employees Apple employs [TS]

  a lot of people and are not all those [TS]

  jobs are the same if you start looking [TS]

  at different sections of employees the [TS]

  percentages I think they do this don't [TS]

  break it down the page and the the [TS]

  percentages will change you know pretty [TS]

  dramatically by five to ten percent [TS]

  maybe even more if you look at like the [TS]

  top level of the org chart [TS]

  director-level c-level executives they [TS]

  are not 56% white right so and then all [TS]

  the way down to look at engineering vs [TS]

  QA vs retail versus you know all the [TS]

  different any other different [TS]

  categorizations if you want them all [TS]

  together it's nice to get a nice a great [TS]

  but you don't know what the pieces are [TS]

  right and so that that's not apples not [TS]

  trying to mislead anybody there they're [TS]

  not going to break down there they're [TS]

  hiring in their employees by individual [TS]

  job level and location and and what what [TS]

  is the population in the state of [TS]

  Maryland and one of the retail boys in [TS]

  the state of Maryland and what about you [TS]

  like it's just they're not going to do [TS]

  that right but that is Apple's job [TS]

  internally to work on this problem [TS]

  because if their overall numbers [TS]

  happened to work out to the same [TS]

  percentage of the United States but it's [TS]

  only because like all the leaders of the [TS]

  company or white men and all the rest of [TS]

  the company or not that's not that you [TS]

  not achieving your goal of diversity [TS]

  write your goal is not to make a bunch [TS]

  of numbers match a bunch of the numbers [TS]

  you can always pick numbers to make it [TS]

  look better or worse and some degree [TS]

  apple may be doing that in the [TS]

  high-level numbers that are up there but [TS]

  that's not the goal of the thing you [TS]

  you're not Apple is not an amorphous [TS]

  blob of people are combined into one [TS]

  google person they're a bunch of [TS]

  individual people and you want to know [TS]

  if you know if I get a job at out [TS]

  what are my chances of you know being in [TS]

  charge of all software an apple [TS]

  what are my chances of raising a rising [TS]

  to the level of the org chart where I'm [TS]

  taking meetings with the with tim cook [TS]

  and stuff what you know what are my odds [TS]

  of becoming a an engineering manager or [TS]

  leading whatever and if you look around [TS]

  you an apple and it's like gee everybody [TS]

  who's engineering manager is a white [TS]

  dude and everyone in the board meetings [TS]

  as a white dude and everybody was [TS]

  onstage WBC's a white dude as as you [TS]

  know to a first approximation that was [TS]

  the case [TS]

  not too many years ago and you know like [TS]

  that even now that file the company like [TS]

  that maybe you feel like oh sure I can [TS]

  get a job at an apple store they're good [TS]

  at it but like can I you know it [TS]

  do I feel like this company is a is [TS]

  giving equal opportunity to everybody [TS]

  and that's what Apple is working towards [TS]

  and I don't think they have yet achieved [TS]

  it was about to be putting out these [TS]

  numbers so that case he said it were if [TS]

  these numbers were given these big [TS]

  aggregates and they haven't changed that [TS]

  much from from year to year two shows [TS]

  they're making slow progress right and [TS]

  so it's not phenomenal progress but it [TS]

  certainly doesn't mean because you can [TS]

  say fifty six percent less than sixty [TS]

  percent therefore there done that [TS]

  absolutely doesn't mean that because it [TS]

  doesn't take much thinking to realize [TS]

  well that's just a bigger your number [TS]

  and it's not that's not the goal the [TS]

  goal is not to simply people are asking [TS]

  that i can honestly asking like what is [TS]

  the goal what numbers you supposed to [TS]

  see here to let you know that Apple has [TS]

  achieved its goal of diversity and the [TS]

  answer is those numbers are never going [TS]

  to tell you that right otherwise you [TS]

  know they wouldn't they wouldn't be [TS]

  continuing along this path they were [TS]

  just say when we're done we've [TS]

  accomplished our goal is not great right [TS]

  and that's before you even get into the [TS]

  office of like percentage of US [TS]

  population versus percentage of US [TS]

  population of working-age like not [TS]

  babies not children not retired people [TS]

  you know so it's numbers are complicated [TS]

  but I anyway I'm i am confident that [TS]

  Apple understands the problem before [TS]

  them and is working towards it just just [TS]

  as I am not particularly tied to the [TS]

  specific numbers that throughout on [TS]

  these pages are basically looking for is [TS]

  our little grass they put up going in an [TS]

  upward direction [TS]

  do they have enough of them every year [TS]

  so they show their making progress and [TS]

  how fast that progress one of the slopes [TS]

  look like yeah that's about it [TS]

  alright well we are out of follow-up [TS]

  thanks a lot 43 sponsors this week [TS]

  betterment tracker and automatic and we [TS]

  will see you next week [TS]

  now the show is over they didn't even [TS]

  mean to be in as it was accidental death [TS]

  was accidental [TS]

  John didn't research Marco and Casey [TS]

  would let me [TS]

  because it was accidental was accidental [TS]

  and you can find the show know today p [TS]

  dot and it for twitter follow them [TS]

  yes byl ISS so that's Casey list and a [TS]

  co-pay rm20 Marco Arment and our AC [TS]

  syracuse it [TS]

  don't want to talk about the Intel fan [TS]

  thing that's topic can we make that [TS]

  quick [TS]

  mmm yeah exactly [TS]

  maybe I don't do it let's take down what [TS]

  we have here is where we have an [TS]

  after-show then we can do Instagram [TS]

  stories and stories good ideas that's [TS]

  fluffy [TS]

  yeah it's it's this thing that appear on [TS]

  top of Instagram recently that's [TS]

  confusing all the old people like me [TS]

  you're not that old [TS]

  your wife's face is always up there she [TS]

  figured out very quickly because she is [TS]

  young at heart and also biologically [TS]

  then I am I am 2014 13 pounds i think [TS]

  like six about sex yet so I i am too old [TS]

  to understand snapchat so instagram has [TS]

  basically cloned a a major part of [TS]

  snapchat into the Instagram interface [TS]

  which has just confused [TS]

  instagram for me and now I have this row [TS]

  of heads on top of instagram i tap them [TS]

  and weird things happen and I don't [TS]

  really know what I'm supposed to be [TS]

  doing with this can you explain to me [TS]

  so John a year i don't think i've seen [TS]

  any post from you yet so you're not [TS]

  producing using this although i presume [TS]

  you're at least consuming it is that [TS]

  fair [TS]

  yeah I don't see myself wearing one of [TS]

  these videos but they're up there on the [TS]

  top of the faces [TS]

  ok so the idea here from what I can [TS]

  understand someone who's never used [TS]

  snapchat and didn't really have any [TS]

  interest in snapchat is with instagram [TS]

  stories you can take a photo or a video [TS]

  that is semi ephemeral so I believe it's [TS]

  after a day they will self-destruct and [TS]

  your phone explodes it's very [TS]

  inconvenient now they will self-destruct [TS]

  and then they won't be available anymore [TS]

  not to you not to anyone else and so the [TS]

  idea is if your Instagram profile in the [TS]

  photos that you post on Instagram proper [TS]

  is the like super stage super deliberate [TS]

  super-serious version of you [TS]

  instagram stories which is this [TS]

  ephemeral thing is more of the candied [TS]

  fun-loving like a here's here's me [TS]

  here's the real me [TS]

  take it or leave it sort of thing and I [TS]

  actually wanted to call out the latest [TS]

  episode of connected which is episode 13 [TS]

  the hosted a really incredible job of of [TS]

  talking about kind of what the [TS]

  motivations are behind Instagram stories [TS]

  and how it's different than than regular [TS]

  Instagram but regardless I've really [TS]

  been enjoying it a lot more than I [TS]

  thought I would as someone who had not [TS]

  even the slightest interest in snapchat [TS]

  and one of the common complaints about [TS]

  snapchat that I've understood is that [TS]

  anyone who is over the age of about [TS]

  eighteen finds the interface completely [TS]

  inscrutable and everything's [TS]

  gesture-based and as much as we all hate [TS]

  tutorials as you install an app for the [TS]

  first time there this is one of those [TS]

  instances where a tutorial or [TS]

  walkthrough or onboarding would have [TS]

  perhaps been useful in snapchat because [TS]

  everything's gesture-based nothing [TS]

  obvious everything's weird Instagram [TS]

  there's a little bit of that Instagram [TS]

  stories but it's not nearly as bad and i [TS]

  was able to figure it out pretty quickly [TS]

  and I'd classify myself as an old man [TS]

  just as much as you two are and I've [TS]

  been enjoying both consuming and [TS]

  creating one of the things I've wondered [TS]

  as I consider whether or not to post a [TS]

  new entry in my Instagram story which [TS]

  sounds super cheesy but anyway one of [TS]

  these have been considering is why would [TS]

  anyone else give a crap about this so [TS]

  like as an example i was going to take a [TS]

  picture my setup at work and you know [TS]

  after having obscured that the sensitive [TS]

  parts of what was on my computer screen [TS]

  and then it occurred to me i don't think [TS]

  anyone really gives crap and so while i [TS]

  was at the beach you know it i'm on [TS]

  vacation we that's exciting and kinda [TS]

  cool or whatever I i posted a handful of [TS]

  times then but now that I'm back in my [TS]

  normal grind well it's not my normal [TS]

  high roller [TS]

  you know look at me I'm so awesome life [TS]

  it's my normal grind so I don't know if [TS]

  I'll be producing that much for posting [TS]

  that often of from now until the next [TS]

  time I do something interesting but i [TS]

  really liked the idea and I echo what [TS]

  Mike it said on unconnected with a nice [TS]

  talk about it and he and I both talked [TS]

  about this on analog as well that [TS]

  Instagram is kind of my happy social [TS]

  network i get a lot out of out of [TS]

  Twitter and I enjoy twitter but Twitter [TS]

  is nevertheless kind of a dumpster fire [TS]

  where I cannot remember a time that [TS]

  instagram has made me anything but happy [TS]

  and even with stories it makes me happy [TS]

  in a different way because it's kind of [TS]

  the fun ephemeral you know hey it's not [TS]

  gonna be perfect and that's okay because [TS]

  life isn't perfect and and it's brought [TS]

  and this is a super sleazy business [TS]

  eater but it's brought my engagement [TS]

  with instagram up even more and I check [TS]

  Instagram a handful times a day because [TS]

  I enjoyed so much but now I found myself [TS]

  checking it more often wondering which [TS]

  one of my friends because I tend to [TS]

  follow mostly friends on Instagram which [TS]

  one of my friends posted something new [TS]

  and something worth looking at and so I [TS]

  have really been enjoying it two thumbs [TS]

  up from me [TS]

  I think it's super super interesting and [TS]

  it seems to have traction so far don't [TS]

  think it's a flash-in-the-pan this isn't [TS]

  the next peach i don't think but remind [TS]

  me that in six months is physically yeah [TS]

  i mean like this i have i've been using [TS]

  Instagram or more recently been using [TS]

  the Explorer view a little search thing [TS]

  at the bottom which to pinterest me too [TS]

  and I didn't even realize that's what [TS]

  that was there I thought it was [TS]

  literally a search and I never wanted to [TS]

  search for anything so I never visited [TS]

  that tab and it turns out it's more like [TS]

  a browser Explorer view and you kinda [TS]

  let you know you like you pick topics so [TS]

  mine's like full of watches and puppies [TS]

  now which is awesome and I didn't know [TS]

  that either actually it is really nice [TS]

  to me i'm using Instagram Milano and I [TS]

  have the same things as you like [TS]

  Instagram is is just feel good place it [TS]

  is both to browse and to post it is a [TS]

  just nice place to be [TS]

  people aren't universally terrible on my [TS]

  Twitter well i'm in general like I'm [TS]

  saying even including all services that [TS]

  we have people in general are not [TS]

  terrible [TS]

  the design of a social thing online and [TS]

  social constructs social service like [TS]

  the whole design of it the structure [TS]

  what's allowed what's possible how [TS]

  things work who sees what that all [TS]

  effects how you how horrible people are [TS]

  are enabled to be and how and what kind [TS]

  of impact [TS]

  they're horribleness can have so the [TS]

  same like the same group of people can [TS]

  use two different services and act very [TS]

  differently on them and get very [TS]

  different things out of them because [TS]

  because of differences in their design [TS]

  and so even if the exact same even if [TS]

  Twitter's entire user base is also [TS]

  facebook is also instagrams exactly is [TS]

  your base you have better results on [TS]

  instagram because just the form and the [TS]

  structure and like the way everything [TS]

  works in a set of expectations of of it [TS]

  and the format and everything just [TS]

  encourage better behavior and limit the [TS]

  places people can be horrible to you [TS]

  so that's good what worries me about [TS]

  this and you know and I want to [TS]

  interview snapchat was you know the end [TS]

  again yet that conversation connected [TS]

  was awesome and willing to it one of the [TS]

  reasons i never had to get into it was [TS]

  because no one that I know really uses [TS]

  it like all the people i would be [TS]

  interacting with our on twitter and [TS]

  instagram so I don't need to use first [TS]

  of all don't use facebook which is great [TS]

  because i want to use facebook and i [TS]

  also and yes i know they own it and it [TS]

  doesn't matter and i also never had to [TS]

  use snapchat because just you know my [TS]

  people aren't there really so to bring [TS]

  that to Instagram to basically bring [TS]

  like a major feature of snapchat to [TS]

  Instagram is kind of okay [TS]

  on one level because it's like well I [TS]

  was gonna use snapchat anyway because my [TS]

  friends weren't there but on the other [TS]

  hand it really shows what you know [TS]

  Facebook has always been a very [TS]

  tasteless company [TS]

  facebook is pragmatic and ruthless and [TS]

  tasteless just like Microsoft was in the [TS]

  eighties and nineties really facebook [TS]

  now is this this conglomerate really [TS]

  they have tons of properties that are [TS]

  major on the internet they have they [TS]

  have Facebook itself which is probably [TS]

  the biggest web property in the world [TS]

  and probably will stay that way for [TS]

  quite some time [TS]

  anything that gets really big that they [TS]

  think might threaten that they just buy [TS]

  it they have enough money to keep doing [TS]

  that indefinitely and they are clearly [TS]

  totally okay with like well if you won't [TS]

  let us buy you were just gonna rip you [TS]

  off and we'll just kill you that way and [TS]

  that strategy doesn't always work it [TS]

  with you know Microsoft the same thing [TS]

  you know it [TS]

  Apple has done things that like on a [TS]

  smaller scale sure locking things but [TS]

  they don't usually do a huge scale job [TS]

  of it stuff like this google does it [TS]

  sometimes and that strategy tends to [TS]

  work like in general when companies when [TS]

  like the big powerful companies that [TS]

  already have all the users and all the [TS]

  usage and all the attention going to [TS]

  them and all this time spent on their [TS]

  services if they clone some smaller [TS]

  service there clone often wins and if [TS]

  they can't clone it they can buy it and [TS]

  this just kinda it's a bit of a warning [TS]

  sign of the power that Facebook has and [TS]

  i'm not saying snapchat will be killed [TS]

  by this in all likelihood snapchat is [TS]

  too big now and they'll probably be [TS]

  totally fine because that's really big i [TS]

  think they're bigger than Twitter [TS]

  they're really big but it does kind of [TS]

  scare me a little bit that facebook is [TS]

  willing to so so cavalierly just like [TS]

  completely rip off the stories feature [TS]

  called the same thing do the same things [TS]

  use the same gestures like completely [TS]

  rip it off it's so closely and so [TS]

  shamelessly and they just couldn't [TS]

  possibly care less because they are just [TS]

  that ruthless and we we live in an age [TS]

  now where these these these handful of [TS]

  big internet companies have a lot of [TS]

  control over us a lot of resources and [TS]

  like the centralization of power here is [TS]

  just getting more and more severe and [TS]

  that kind of worries me for the future [TS]

  of like internet things general things [TS]

  we do online that that use the internet [TS]

  that involve the internet or are the [TS]

  internet it is a little concerning thing [TS]

  that struck me about using this and [TS]

  having new snapchat a little bit is the [TS]

  one you often hear and you guys said [TS]

  before i go well you know I don't [TS]

  understand that put on the kids [TS]

  understand it or whatever I did yeah [TS]

  there is the demographic thing about [TS]

  what age groups use which application [TS]

  that's definitely true and more older [TS]

  people use Instagram or whatever but [TS]

  snapchat and also the extreme stories [TS]

  have bad interfaces they have bad user [TS]

  interfaces like there is no sensible [TS]

  structure to to the interface they don't [TS]

  use OS conventions that's for sure [TS]

  right so the normal affordances and sort [TS]

  of the things you're used to in [TS]

  generic uikit you know I don't know [TS]

  about another problem just talked about [TS]

  in iOS but like it doesn't look like iOS [TS]

  that's for sure [TS]

  right so it's kind of its own thing and [TS]

  within its own thing they don't really [TS]

  define any particular spatial metaphor [TS]

  or something to hang your hat on where [TS]

  you can say oh I see all of swipes to [TS]

  this i mean like basically if you you [TS]

  know if someone's like oh snap just only [TS]

  sensible what you'd basically be doing [TS]

  is listing this does that this does that [TS]

  this doesn't just like that there now [TS]

  and parts that's not a system that is [TS]

  just a list of actions and the resulting [TS]

  you know what you're looking for a [TS]

  system is like because I understand the [TS]

  system before you tell me the list of [TS]

  all things i can do i can predict oh [TS]

  then obviously the way to do X is going [TS]

  to be why that's when you know you have [TS]

  a system snapchat doesn't have a system [TS]

  or not a very good system it's a lot of [TS]

  arbitrary crap and they're not using [TS]

  native controls not using serve [TS]

  unprecedented right sort of setting [TS]

  their own standard and why does does [TS]

  that mean is that is that why young [TS]

  people get snapped and people don't know [TS]

  like there are other factors there in [TS]

  terms of what's advertised towards into [TS]

  the first users were and you know [TS]

  critical mass and social networks and [TS]

  look where my friends are all things [TS]

  that all factors that as well but I [TS]

  think there is something to the idea [TS]

  that young people will be full to do [TS]

  something there's a bunch of their [TS]

  friends are doing it they'll just figure [TS]

  it out [TS]

  they have a high tolerance for learning [TS]

  RG arbitrary stupid crap i think about [TS]

  all the arbitrary stupid crap that I [TS]

  learned which basically is the entire [TS]

  early years of computing where [TS]

  everything was terrible and nothing made [TS]

  sense and the mac was the only one had [TS]

  kind of an understandable system [TS]

  think of all the things that i memorize [TS]

  things i learned how to do in video [TS]

  games there was no system is arbitrary [TS]

  and kids have a lot of time and you're [TS]

  good memories and they'll just plug away [TS]

  until it becomes second nature to them [TS]

  so the kids snapchat makes perfect sense [TS]

  because they memorize all the the stupid [TS]

  gestures and commands even those [TS]

  gestures and commands are almost [TS]

  entirely arbitrary countered everything [TS]

  that every other UI paradigm the device [TS]

  they're holding has taught them and are [TS]

  just plain bad right [TS]

  they're just bad this is the bad you iso [TS]

  Instagram stories didn't use all the [TS]

  same things that snapped up but it's a [TS]

  similar thing we're Instagram was a very [TS]

  sensible straight up the middle iOS [TS]

  application with the reasonable UI using [TS]

  metaphors and controls and [TS]

  the interfaces that we understood so you [TS]

  can predict what would happen when you [TS]

  did thanks for the most part is always [TS]

  the weird edge cases and custom controls [TS]

  and stuff but then related stories it's [TS]

  in la-la land again where nothing makes [TS]

  sense and you can't you have no you have [TS]

  no nothing to hang your hat on except [TS]

  for like maybe it will behave like [TS]

  snapchat which again maybe that's [TS]

  establishing a standard maybe you're [TS]

  familiar with snapchat that might be a [TS]

  good way to go if you're trying to do [TS]

  like what marco said like oh we want to [TS]

  do a snapchat like then just copy [TS]

  snapshots gestures because all the kids [TS]

  who snapchat it makes perfect sense of [TS]

  them and they go do your thing and [TS]

  Swiper drag or tap and it doesn't do [TS]

  what they expect from using snapchat [TS]

  they think your thing is broken but [TS]

  again it's not a good you I just because [TS]

  they make it like snapchat for like or [TS]

  you know making similar snap try to get [TS]

  a little bar they've got on the top with [TS]

  a little segment and timers and what [TS]

  happens when you swipe in different [TS]

  directions and the little rotating [TS]

  effect versus the sliding vs up and down [TS]

  and tapping and it's just these are bad [TS]

  interfaces and so I maintained as the [TS]

  old cranky person but not only the [TS]

  actual reason like old people don't [TS]

  understand snapchat because they made a [TS]

  bad UI and because older people have [TS]

  less tolerance for figuring out a bad [TS]

  you want it doesn't look like the other [TS]

  ones doing it and I don't just think [TS]

  it's like it i think it's bad on many [TS]

  many levels and again this doesn't [TS]

  explain why old people don't use that [TS]

  there's so many other reasons but this [TS]

  is a factor I'm saying this is this is a [TS]

  factor in that giant students not the [TS]

  biggest factor is not you know even [TS]

  maybe a major factor but it's there and [TS]

  that annoys me because I feel like [TS]

  snapchat could have been successful with [TS]

  a clever innovative you i think a lot of [TS]

  games do this like you wanted to use no [TS]

  native controls totally custom doesn't [TS]

  use anything you like it is the same on [TS]

  Android and iOS but is delightful and [TS]

  understandable and fun to use and [TS]

  someone can pick up and learn you again [TS]

  at this is my hobby horse but it's [TS]

  really true if you make some kind of [TS]

  physical world based metaphor like I [TS]

  have stacks of cards and we can slide [TS]

  them side to side and up and down and [TS]

  bring them together and collapse them or [TS]

  i can crunch them up or like if you make [TS]

  some sort of thing like these aren't [TS]

  physical things but in some ways they [TS]

  behave and physical things are the is [TS]

  like a larger map that you can't see of [TS]

  this application once you learn the [TS]

  layout of that Matthew know how to move [TS]

  around it and you know how to make [TS]

  things happen and you know what a button [TS]

  looks like and you understand like any [TS]

  kind of metaphor like that even if he [TS]

  uses totally underrated non-native [TS]

  controls can become understandable when [TS]

  people start using it [TS]

  learn one or two things that all i see [TS]

  how this works and they can figure out [TS]

  how to do the other things without being [TS]

  told explicitly whereas snapchat like [TS]

  all mystery meat navigation a bunch of [TS]

  inscrutable icons and no real sense of [TS]

  where you are what you're doing where [TS]

  you going to just memorize how it works [TS]

  because you're young and you have a lot [TS]

  of time or use the application a lot and [TS]

  that becomes second nature you just [TS]

  think that's normal [TS]

  so if you ask any kid snapchat [TS]

  easy-to-use they like everyone knows how [TS]

  to use snapchats like i like i know how [TS]

  to write my name and I put one foot in [TS]

  front of the other walk and you snapped [TS]

  as the most intuitive interface on my [TS]

  entire phone [TS]

  no just use it a lot that's what that [TS]

  means that doesn't mean it's a good UI [TS]

  and the reason they like using it is [TS]

  because it makes people like us that [TS]

  angry not but that's not why where I'm [TS]

  about like I'm just saying it's a bad [TS]

  you I you angry about it because it's [TS]

  like you're making silly videos of [TS]

  yourself and send your friends and like [TS]

  all these kids these days shouldn't be [TS]

  taking video I don't care about that [TS]

  whatever take videos you live in the [TS]

  same thing when we take videos and our [TS]

  things and send our friends that's fine [TS]

  like whatever that I have no I have no [TS]

  anger towards people use snapchat I [TS]

  hangers the developers of snapchat for [TS]

  making a bad you I that users thumbs-up [TS]

  snapchat developers thumbs down [TS]