0:00:00(upbeat music)
0:00:02- Hello and welcome to Connected episode 217.
0:00:11It's brought to you this week by Squarespace,
0:00:13Simple Contacts, and Luna Display.
0:00:16I'm your host, Steven Hackett,
0:00:17and I'm joined as always by my two co-hosts.
0:00:20I have Federico Vittucci.
0:00:21- Hello, Steven.
0:00:23- Hello, Federico, how are you?
0:00:25- I'm doing great.
0:00:26I'm in front of a 4K display for serious Mac users, but I'm not a serious Mac user, so
0:00:32I don't know what's going on.
0:00:34Something's off here.
0:00:37Something's happened.
0:00:38We'll get to that, I think.
0:00:40And we're also joined by very serious Mac user and gaming PC enthusiast, Myke Hurley.
0:00:46You can't do real gaming on a Macintosh.
0:00:49So I tweeted this a couple of days ago, because we're gonna get into this big iPad stuff,
0:00:54And I was kind of just being a fool, and I tweeted, "You can't do real gaming on a Macintosh,"
0:01:00and it was just really funny to see the replies. Because all I was doing, it's just the opposite
0:01:05of, "You can't do real work on an iPad," right? It's the same argument.
0:01:12Everybody knows that.
0:01:13Although I would actually say that it is more true that you can't do real gaming on a Mac.
0:01:18You're not wrong, but you were just like, you're not just stirring up the beehive, like
0:01:23were just like full out just like I don't know just like jumping in head
0:01:27first to the beehive my analogies got mixed up we should just move on to
0:01:32follow up because that happens at the beginning of the show I would hate to
0:01:35dive in head first into a beehive it would be very soft like one of those
0:01:40some people do that for a living like nobody does that nobody dives head first
0:01:45they do you know that with the with the astronaut suit they don't go head first
0:01:50What would be the point of that?
0:01:52I wouldn't help anything!
0:01:54Maybe because it's fun?
0:01:56I'm coming in! I'm coming in!
0:01:58Your job is to A) look after the bees
0:02:00and B) get the honey
0:02:02You do neither if you go ahead first
0:02:04You can take the plunge if you have protection
0:02:06You know, that's my way of life
0:02:10Follow up! We have some follow up
0:02:12At some point over the last few weeks
0:02:16we were talking about the number of
0:02:18about the number of Mac notebooks you can buy.
0:02:22And I think it was a question from Twitter
0:02:24about if this is the biggest number.
0:02:27And I thought, yes, yes it is.
0:02:28But turns out, no, no it's not.
0:02:31So this comes from Ed Cormany.
0:02:34He is a buddy of mine.
0:02:35He hosts a podcast called Simple Beep.
0:02:37So if you like Apple history stuff,
0:02:39you should go check that out.
0:02:40There'll be a link in the show notes.
0:02:41It's a really fun show.
0:02:43And somehow I'm in their slack for that podcast.
0:02:46There's like the two of them and then me.
0:02:48It's because you are their patronus.
0:02:52I met Ed at the New York Life Show
0:02:54and told him how much you love their show.
0:02:58Yeah, I do love their show very much.
0:03:00So go check it out.
0:03:01Anyways, so Ed pointed out that for a brief moment in 1995,
0:03:06Apple's PowerBook line was bonkers.
0:03:09So I'm just going to read these models.
0:03:10You too are like best friends.
0:03:12It must be.
0:03:12Like, this is just like the most Stephen Hackett follow up.
0:03:16Briefly in 1995.
0:03:19It's like, oh, god.
0:03:20I just want to be correct, because we have listeners
0:03:23who they may be questioned on this at some point
0:03:25in their lives, and I don't want to leave them astray.
0:03:27Just you and Ed, the only two people that one, no, or two
0:03:31care about this.
0:03:33But please, please fill everyone in.
0:03:35All right.
0:03:36PowerBook 145B, the PowerBook 165, the PowerBook 230,
0:03:41the PowerBook 280, and then you get to the color models.
0:03:44The PowerBook 280c, the PowerBook 520c,
0:03:48and the PowerBook 540c.
0:03:51This is from a Wikipedia timeline of Mac models,
0:03:55so I'm assuming that it's correct.
0:03:56I didn't go and verify, but that is a mountain of computers.
0:04:01Yeah, so we talk about transitions in computing,
0:04:05like Intel and ARM.
0:04:07In the mid-90s, we were going from grayscale
0:04:10to color screens.
0:04:11Can you imagine what it must have felt like
0:04:12to get your first color screen on a computer.
0:04:14Like we're all too young to remember that,
0:04:16but it must have been mind blowing.
0:04:18Right now somewhere Dr. Drang is keeling over dead
0:04:21thinking about how young we are.
0:04:22- Federico, which one of those was your favorite?
0:04:24- I mean for sure the 165,
0:04:30I have fond memories of the PowerBook 165, you know,
0:04:35because it could only handle 165 files on the disk.
0:04:39- That's why they wrote the numbers, man.
0:04:41- So you had to do, you know, it was like,
0:04:44like it forced you to be sort of like a Zen,
0:04:47you know, approach to computing.
0:04:48You can only have 165 files.
0:04:50So what you're gonna choose, you know,
0:04:52like all your, your, your Claris works documents,
0:04:56you know, you had to be really picky about those
0:04:59because you, you know, if you saved one,
0:05:01well now it's 164.
0:05:03So, you know, good times, good times.
0:05:06- Oh, the number would go down, like it started.
0:05:08- The number would go down and when it reached zero,
0:05:10you had to return the computer. You're done. It's full up now. So what do you think is
0:05:16going to happen? I can't put any more files in this thing. Please take it back. We also
0:05:23have spoken about the performance of the MacBook Air and I spent some time with one today,
0:05:30not really enough time to like have any deep impressions except that it's a really nice
0:05:33laptop and I think it's, I agree with what Jason said on upgrade this week that I think
0:05:37It's like the default Mac notebook now.
0:05:39MacRumors had put together a bunch of performance stuff
0:05:44on the new machines, and the MacBook Air is solidly
0:05:47in between the MacBook and the MacBook Pro.
0:05:52In some cases, very close to that MacBook Pro
0:05:55with two ports and no touch bar, the escape model.
0:05:59Actually, very close to that in single core performance,
0:06:01which is pretty interesting.
0:06:04And then there's the Mac Mini, which the 6-core i7--
0:06:10this is so sad--
0:06:12I'm quoting-- "closely matches the 2013 Mac Pro models
0:06:16when it comes to multi-core performance
0:06:18and exceeds them when it comes to single-core performance."
0:06:21So rest in peace, 2013 Mac Pro.
0:06:26Can I just say about that Mac Mini?
0:06:28So Marco got a review in it.
0:06:30He did a really great video and written review.
0:06:33And he did a bunch of like, interesting tests.
0:06:36Like they were tests that I could like fathom because the,
0:06:41the Geekbench stuff, like, I don't know what it like, what,
0:06:44what am I supposed to do with those numbers? Like, hooray, I can bench geeks.
0:06:48Like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do with that stuff. But like he did,
0:06:52he did a bunch of like things that are broken down into seconds and minutes and
0:06:56the Mac mini is like surprisingly close to the iMac Pro.
0:07:02Like the 10 core iMac Pro.
0:07:05Like I kind of cannot believe how much power
0:07:10that machine has.
0:07:11Like that, it is pretty astounding I think.
0:07:14- I forget where, I think Marco said it somewhere,
0:07:17maybe Jason did.
0:07:18I have consumed a lot of stuff this week, but--
0:07:21- Yeah, it's been really good.
0:07:23- Yeah, someone smarter than me said,
0:07:25you know, had this really interesting point,
0:07:26like the Mac Mini now defines like the entry level Mac Pro.
0:07:30Like, the Mac Pro will be better than this machine, probably notably.
0:07:34Which makes me excited about the Mac Pro.
0:07:36Isn't that exciting, right?
0:07:37Like, how good is it gonna be?
0:07:39It's gonna be so good!
0:07:40I'm genuinely, like, really excited to see the Mac Pro now.
0:07:45Yeah.
0:07:46Because, like, just how much of a beast is that thing gonna be?
0:07:49That's very exciting.
0:07:50It's gonna be stellar.
0:07:51But what's so interesting is, you know, Apple said, "Well, the Mac Mini is for pros," and
0:07:57They didn't really share this side of it, I think, very well in the keynote.
0:08:01They said how much faster it was than the old one, but that thing was 19 years old.
0:08:07Anything would be faster than that.
0:08:11It's really exciting to see, at least if you spec it up and get an expensive one.
0:08:14This is the i7, this is an expensive Mac Mini.
0:08:16This is faster than the one that is out for delivery at my house right now.
0:08:21If you need something really powerful and small, the Mac Mini is a viable option.
0:08:26And I think that's pretty exciting.
0:08:27And yes, the GPU's not there,
0:08:29but if you need one, you can do Thunderbolt.
0:08:31And if you've thought about the Mac Mini before,
0:08:34you're like, oh yeah, it'd be nice to have one for this,
0:08:36like whatever this is in your life.
0:08:37Like Marco's test is like building overcast in Xcode.
0:08:42Like if you have that sort of job,
0:08:44the Mac Mini seems like an incredible option now.
0:08:47Like you're gonna pay for it,
0:08:48but I'm excited to see that they really did build,
0:08:52at least in custom ordering, a pro version of this thing.
0:08:55I would imagine that there are a lot of people that would have bought a laptop
0:08:59that can now buy a Mac Mini instead.
0:09:01You know, like people that were buying a laptop because it was cheaper and they
0:09:05had a display and they could just plug it in, right, rather than buying, like
0:09:09going all in on like an iMac Pro or something.
0:09:11There could be something there to it, but it's a very impressive computer.
0:09:15And I think probably purposefully Apple didn't really
0:09:20bother to go into this.
0:09:22It's such a niche product that, you know, it's probably the reason they gave it to someone like Marco who can like
0:09:28tell the story as somebody who is the exact target market to the people that
0:09:33would be buying it, right? Like I would expect that a vast majority of people that would buy that Mac Mini have read Marco's review.
0:09:41Like it is or at least would would buy it right now, you know, like getting like mine, but like people are gonna buy it immediately.
0:09:49They're the people that are looking for that kind of content because it is very much a niche computer
0:09:54But I think that it's really exciting that they've given it way more than anybody would have expected
0:10:00Mm-hmm. They're gonna sell the bulk of them this quarter. No doubt
0:10:04You know for me I got one as a home server, but like it I could do my work on a loaded Mac mini
0:10:11I would need it an eGPU
0:10:12But like it's a viable machine for someone even like me like I'm on the base model
0:10:17iMac Pro because according to these these tests like real-world tests like
0:10:20you said that Marco did it's in the ballpark for you know probably
0:10:25significantly less money depending on the display and EGP you buy so do you
0:10:29have it times no it is out for delivery so it'll probably be here this evening
0:10:33okay I did see one in the store today it looks cool in space gray but that's all
0:10:39that's all I just saw it so have I told you guys the the setup that up the that
0:10:45I'm gonna get for the Mac Mini? Nope. But I don't wanna know. Alright, so... you don't
0:10:50wanna know? No, I do! Don't tell me! No, I want to know! Yeah, I thought you said "I
0:10:54don't wanna know", I was like "Wow, that's harsh!" Don't tell me, don't care! Get out
0:10:57of here, Macs, boo! No, I wanna know. So, I'm getting the i76 core, 3.2 GHz, 16 GHz
0:11:08of RAM, internal SSD 256, because I'm also getting an external 1TB SSD from Samsung I
0:11:19think. I was checking out a bunch of reviews and it looked like a good one with support
0:11:23for USB 3.1.
0:11:25Why do you want to go external for that amount?
0:11:28Because the internal storage, I feel like the Apple prices are insane for adding storage
0:11:35you know, with the built-in option. So I don't need to do any serious like, like I'm not
0:11:43dealing with heavy PSD assets in Photoshop. This Mac Mini is mostly going to be used as
0:11:49a home server and for podcasting. And I want this to be my last Macintosh computer that
0:11:55I ever buy because I really don't think that in five years I'm going to be buying a Mac
0:12:01we know it today at least. So the storage is mostly going to be reserved for Plex, so
0:12:11TV shows, movies, that kind of stuff, and backups. So I think with USB-C I can just
0:12:18get an external SSD and leave it plugged in and just use it to store media. Unless that's
0:12:26a bad idea, but I don't think it is.
0:12:28No, as long as you're backing up that external drive.
0:12:31Exactly, so down the road I think like maybe you know next month
0:12:35I'm also gonna get like a second one so that I should have like the basically the Mac Mini
0:12:40The external drive and the backup for the drive, so I should be fine also
0:12:46I don't keep a lot of important files on my computer
0:12:49Everything is in Dropbox essentially
0:12:52I already have because I bought it today. I shared a picture on Twitter. I already have the ultra fine 4k display
0:13:00from LG that I bought at the Apple store with the new iPad Pro. And it's a very
0:13:07beautiful display. I don't love the design, I don't like the bezels, I don't
0:13:11like the LG logo staring at me. The stand is okay, I think I'm gonna put the Mac
0:13:17Mini down there. Right now there's a Triforce toy that I bought a few months
0:13:22ago. It's fine, I love the display, I don't love everything around it.
0:13:30if that makes sense. I so wish that Apple would make a new display, like a 5K display
0:13:39from Apple that is not an iMac, so just the display. But, you know. I also didn't want
0:13:44to get the 5K LG because that was too big for my desk and also it felt like it was going
0:13:51to be too compromising with the iPad Pro and the Mac Mini because the 4K uses standard
0:13:57USB-C to output from a Mac and from an iPad now to the 4K display.
0:14:05The 5K uses Thunderbolt 3, but for some reason the iPad Pro does not support Thunderbolt
0:14:093, just USB-C. So I thought, you know, it's a combination of the 4K is cheaper and it's
0:14:14smaller so it fits my new desk better and it also works with the Mac Mini and the iPad
0:14:19Pro, so it's gonna be like an interchangeable setup.
0:14:22And also I'm trying to think ahead, like, I'm convinced that the iPad Pro will eventually
0:14:27get trackpad support and mouse support and better integration with external keyboards.
0:14:33So I'm preparing for a feature where I can just have a monitor and a single cable and
0:14:38then I can choose to use either a Mac OS computer or an iPad computer.
0:14:43So I'm preparing for that.
0:14:45And right now I'm staring at the new 4K display, but it's connected to Sylvia's MacBook Pro,
0:14:50she has a 2017 MacBook Pro.
0:14:52My Mac Mini I think should be here next week, depends on when I put the order in and how
0:14:57long the wait is gonna be.
0:15:00This is all very exciting.
0:15:01Federico buying a Mac.
0:15:05My last Mac.
0:15:07I think what might be better to say is it's probably your last Intel Mac.
0:15:13Right?
0:15:14If and when they move to ARM, they might make something that again becomes interesting to
0:15:20you know maybe we'll see but yeah Mac Mini is still not here but the display is
0:15:28and it's it's very nice the display itself the plastic sucks yeah it's uh
0:15:34they should do something you know that it's funny there's a like some tweets
0:15:37floating around like in the Mac Mini booklet there's like a picture of a
0:15:40display kind of like there's a picture of air power in the XS Max so that team
0:15:44is the same team working on both of those products but uh just make that one
0:15:49That one looks really good.
0:15:51But I guess we'll see next year with the Mac Pro.
0:15:54I assume that's when we'll-- that'll all be one thing.
0:15:57All right.
0:15:58Today's episode is brought to you by our friends
0:16:00over at Squarespace.
0:16:01You can make your next move with Squarespace.
0:16:03They will let you easily create a website for your next idea
0:16:06or project.
0:16:07Squarespace give you the ability to grab a unique domain name,
0:16:10take advantage of and customize award-winning templates,
0:16:13integrate store functionality on your website
0:16:15if you want to sell something.
0:16:17But also they have every type of tool available for you to create the website you want to make.
0:16:22Squarespace is an all in one platform.
0:16:25There is nothing to install or patch or upgrade.
0:16:28They have got it all covered for you.
0:16:29Squarespace have plans that start at just $12 a month and they all come with award winning 24/7 customer support.
0:16:37So if you need any help, they will be there to help you out.
0:16:40Squarespace is super customizable.
0:16:42Everything is drag and drop.
0:16:43And they think about all of the little things that you don't have to.
0:16:46They integrate with a bunch of awesome services.
0:16:49You can integrate other services that you use elsewhere.
0:16:52So for example, if you want to collect information
0:16:55from a questionnaire on your website,
0:16:58you can integrate it with Google Sheets.
0:16:59So people can fill it all out on the web page,
0:17:02and everything's kind of native there.
0:17:04They press Submit, and it will go into Google Sheets for you.
0:17:06All of these things can be very easily done.
0:17:08If you want to have an email list sign up,
0:17:10you can integrate with a bunch of different email providers,
0:17:13like Mailchimp and companies like that.
0:17:15It's really, really awesome.
0:17:16So go try it out today.
0:17:18Go to squarespace.com/connected
0:17:20and you can start a trial.
0:17:21There's no credit card required.
0:17:23You can just sign up and try it out.
0:17:24Then when you decide to sign up for a plan,
0:17:26use the offer code connected at checkout
0:17:28and you'll get 10% off your first purchase
0:17:30of a website or domain
0:17:31and you'll be showing your support for this show.
0:17:34Once again, that's squarespace.com/connected
0:17:37and the code connected to get 10% off your first purchase.
0:17:40Our thanks to Squarespace for their support of this show
0:17:43and Relay FM Squarespace.
0:17:45Make your next move, make your next website.
0:17:48- All right, so the new iPad Pros are here.
0:17:50They're shipping today, they're in stores today,
0:17:54and I believe that all three of us have our hands on them.
0:17:57This is not a full review, we need some time to think,
0:18:00but I thought we could talk about at least
0:18:02our first impressions of maybe, especially the hardware,
0:18:05because the iPad has been kinda the same recipe
0:18:09really since the iPad mini with sort of the rounded edges,
0:18:12and they've been in that design language for a long time,
0:18:15and this one is a pretty drastic difference,
0:18:18and I'm excited to hear what you guys think.
0:18:19So Myke, you have both of them,
0:18:22so maybe let's start with like the size comparison
0:18:24between the two compared to the old ones?
0:18:26- There is definitely a difference still
0:18:31that I can very clearly see.
0:18:35I think the impression that at least I had,
0:18:38and I think has kind of been the general consensus
0:18:40about these devices leading up to this is that like,
0:18:44with the 12.9 getting smaller and then the 11 inch screen,
0:18:48you know, now the 10 and a half is an 11 inch,
0:18:50that they would be closer together.
0:18:54But the 12.9 inch screen is still way more screen
0:18:58than I want in certain circumstances.
0:19:01Like, if I'm reading in bed at night or whatever,
0:19:05I don't need a 13 inch screen to do that
0:19:08and nor do I really want that.
0:19:11And the smaller screen is definitely better for that.
0:19:16And it's the same for when I travel.
0:19:19Like I still...
0:19:20OK, so this, the bigger iPad Pro is significantly smaller than the previous one,
0:19:25but it's still noticeably bigger than the smaller one.
0:19:28And I feel like for me, I was wondering, like I was like, I've been thinking like,
0:19:34did I make a mistake because I got cellular on the smaller one but Wi-Fi only on the bigger one
0:19:40because that's how I've done it in the past because the bigger one never leaves home
0:19:45and I'm like oh man if I made a mistake like am I gonna actually want
0:19:48cellular on the big one because I'm just gonna use that one and maybe return the smaller one
0:19:52I don't think it's gonna happen there is still enough of a difference to me which
0:20:00kind of they still fit the purposes that I had for them.
0:20:03So so that's kind of the screen size differences.
0:20:06It's still there.
0:20:07And it is it is exactly pretty much exactly now like a 13 inch
0:20:12MacBook Pro to a 15 inch MacBook Pro like
0:20:15those differences on very noticeable like you put those two machines,
0:20:20you put like two sizes of laptop next to each other and you're like, OK,
0:20:23this is much bigger and it's heavier, you know, and all that kind of stuff.
0:20:27So I think that still exists between these two iPads.
0:20:30So I assume that I will be living the multi-pad lifestyle for the foreseeable future.
0:20:37This is, you know, the 12.9.
0:20:41Like, this is the iPad Pro for most people now, I believe.
0:20:47I think the 10.5 was before, but I now think that most people would benefit from the 12.9.
0:20:55I cannot believe the screen to body ratio on it.
0:21:01It really is wild.
0:21:04It is wild.
0:21:06Yeah, the fact that it's so much smaller than before, the 12.9, it really does make a difference.
0:21:13And I was comparing the...
0:21:16Like I put the new iPad Pro on top of my old one today, and there's like at least one centimeter
0:21:22of difference on the bottom side because the forehead and the chin have drastically been
0:21:29reduced. So I feel like if you're looking for, if you never, I think it's interesting
0:21:36to ask this question, if you never owned an iPad Pro, so if you still have an iPad Air
0:21:412 or something, which one is the best for you? And so while I personally got a 12.9
0:21:49cellular because this is going to be my main computer that I'm gonna work on both at home
0:21:56and when I'm around. I think it's interesting to consider whether most people should do
0:22:03what you did and get cellular on the 11". My main problem is that the 11" still doesn't
0:22:11show you two apps in the regular size class. When you do split view it only shows you the
0:22:18compact size class. So if that's a deal-breaker for you, you're gonna want to do 12.9, I think.
0:22:26But also there's a question of, do you want to use this iPad when you're done working,
0:22:31do you want to use it to read in bed or something, or to watch movies for example? And I do think
0:22:37that in spite of the size reduction, I think it's still a little uncomfortable to read
0:22:42with the 12.9", even in portrait mode for example.
0:22:47So for me the big problem of the limited split view on the 11", that single problem convinced
0:22:56me that I was going to stick with the 12.9".
0:22:58If multitasking is not a big deal for you, I would recommend starting from the 11", because
0:23:03I think it's more portable than the 12.9".
0:23:06Even though as a computer, the 12.9 I think is the better deal.
0:23:12I don't know if this makes sense, but basically portability is still an issue for you.
0:23:16If it's really important for you to have a portable iPad, go for the 11 inch.
0:23:21If you want to have a computer replacement and you don't mind the extra size basically,
0:23:30I love the 12.9.
0:23:34That thought process is exactly why there's a 12.9 on my desk.
0:23:38I had the 12.9 initially, and then I went to the 10 5 Pro, and I'm telling y'all, going
0:23:45back to the smaller size, the iPad mostly became consumption device for me because I
0:23:50really like the two full-size apps side by side.
0:23:55When the 11 didn't get that, I knew that I was destined for the bigger one.
0:23:59Even though that does mean giving it up in some situations,
0:24:03I think that for me at least,
0:24:06like wanting to make a better run at doing more work on it,
0:24:10that the size is a big deal.
0:24:13And you know, it's funny,
0:24:16one of the stores, I've seen both of them,
0:24:19and they definitely still,
0:24:21they feel more different than I thought they would.
0:24:24I thought they would feel like,
0:24:26you know, kind of, I don't know,
0:24:27like the the the max and the iPhone 10 or 10 are like these are all really
0:24:31close they do still feel distinctly different but with the weight reduction
0:24:35like I picked up the the 11 is like holy cow this is light and and I feel the
0:24:41same way about the 12 - now it's been a long time since I've owned a 12 but it
0:24:45just seems like they've shaved some weight off of it and that that does make
0:24:48it more portable in its own way like you could walk around and hold this much
0:24:52easier I think than the old one and that's a positive for some people not in
0:24:56a bad way, but how weird the flat edges feel.
0:24:59It's very weird.
0:25:01I like it. Feel no, but it's weird because it's very unlike any
0:25:05other like iOS device that I've had in a very long time.
0:25:10It's like abnormal.
0:25:12I like it a lot.
0:25:13I like the look of it and it's interesting.
0:25:15But like, yeah, it does feel kind of like nostalgic even.
0:25:20It's it's kind of it's kind of interesting.
0:25:22It's a throwback.
0:25:23Does feel like that. Yeah.
0:25:24I kind of wish that Apple would go this route across their devices.
0:25:29Like, I like the squared off sides.
0:25:32I think it looks really modern in a way that I wasn't expecting.
0:25:37I don't love the antenna lines.
0:25:38I went with the silver primarily because the antenna lines are lighter than the aluminum.
0:25:43I felt like on the Space Gray it was not the best looking, to my eye at least.
0:25:48But I kind of dig it.
0:25:51It's got a presence to it that I sort of find interesting.
0:25:56Yeah, antenna lines are so friggin weird on the Selena model.
0:26:01They're like, "Okay, not only does it go across the edge, also kind of on the top."
0:26:05Like it's like, what is going on with these things?
0:26:08I like, I actually kind of, I think it looks pretty cool.
0:26:12Like I like that it's not being specifically trying to be hidden.
0:26:16I think it can look worse when they try and hide it.
0:26:18you kind of like call it out and make it look more like a design element.
0:26:21But they are freaky on the on the cellular like on the on the Wi-Fi they don't have that
0:26:28little line that sticks out.
0:26:30It's just it just goes across but it doesn't you know you got like weirdly not in the middle
0:26:36on either of them.
0:26:38You've got like the two little notches that go from the line around the top of the screen
0:26:42that doesn't exist.
0:26:44It's a strange they're strange looking.
0:26:47You know, there was a render or something of an iPhone 7
0:26:50like years ago that is basically this design.
0:26:53Do you remember that?
0:26:54Like it had the antenna lines like this.
0:26:55- Yeah, the iPhone Pro.
0:26:57- That's right.
0:26:58- The iPhone Pro, yeah.
0:27:00- You know, so they haven't really blended it in as nicely,
0:27:02but I like the silver, I especially like the silver
0:27:07with the contrast with the keyboard folio.
0:27:10I think that's sort of a nice look, but--
0:27:13- Can we talk about that?
0:27:14Can we talk about that keyboard?
0:27:16Oh my god, yeah, okay, so I don't like it.
0:27:20I never liked the smart keyboard, or I should say I--
0:27:24- You grew to dislike it, I think,
0:27:26'cause you found other things that you like more.
0:27:28- I grew to dislike the smart keyboard,
0:27:31and so after having used a bridge keyboard
0:27:34for almost a year now, it's very difficult for me
0:27:37to go back to the keyboard folio.
0:27:40And it's not, the features that are new
0:27:43to the keyboard folio, I kinda like.
0:27:45So I like that I was wrong at the hands-on area.
0:27:49It's very easy to put it into the case.
0:27:53It didn't seem easy.
0:27:56Maybe the demo person wasn't just familiar with it enough.
0:27:59I think it's fine.
0:28:00I like the laptop viewing angle.
0:28:08I think the desk mode angle is a lie.
0:28:10That is a steep angle.
0:28:12That is not made for desks.
0:28:13I think Myke made an argument today in our iMessage conversation that this feels more
0:28:19like a movie mode. It's a media mode.
0:28:22Yeah, they're just calling it desk mode because you can't get rid of the keyboard anymore,
0:28:28like you used to be able to. I will say that I have used it in that angle on a desk and
0:28:33it works, but it's...
0:28:35Yeah, you're gonna have some neck pain.
0:28:37You've got it far away from you, right? Like if it's not right in front of you... Funny
0:28:41Again, this is super strange to me, but I guess it's just because of the law of physics.
0:28:47The angles are different on each model.
0:28:50Oh, interesting.
0:28:51They're both steeper on the 11 than they are on the 12.
0:28:57Interesting.
0:28:58OK.
0:28:59So, what is new to the keyboard folio?
0:29:02I don't hate.
0:29:04My main problem remains the keyboard.
0:29:08It's not a backlit keyboard.
0:29:11The keys are too small for me compared to the Brydge keyboard, which uses like an old
0:29:16style MacBook keyboard type of setup.
0:29:22The keyboard itself is very small and it feels like my hands are constantly cramped into
0:29:28this keyboard.
0:29:30And also it doesn't have any special media key or any special function key.
0:29:37So there's no Siri key, for example, which I get on the Bridge keyboard.
0:29:41There are no media controls, which you used to get on MacBook Pro keyboards before the
0:29:46Touch Bar.
0:29:47You know, stuff to play and pause and change the volume and control the brightness of the
0:29:53display and the brightness of the keyboard.
0:29:55The Smart Keyboard Folio lacks all of these features.
0:29:59And so, I'm gonna use this for now, because it's my only option.
0:30:03But as soon as somebody, or Bridge itself, make a version of the keyboard that I want,
0:30:09an aluminum keyboard that I want for the iPad Pro, I'm gonna get it right away.
0:30:14Because I can accept the Smart Keyboard Folio for now, it's an expensive thing to accept,
0:30:21but it's my only option.
0:30:23I should probably try again the Kanopy by StudioNeat, I think it sort of works with
0:30:28the new iPad Pro, but I want an integrated setup, I want to have something that I can
0:30:32attached to my iPad and carry around. I don't want to have like a separate thing.
0:30:35So unfortunately I don't like it because I know where my preference is and it's
0:30:42not this. I was surprised at the texture of the outside. It's smoother than
0:30:53the previous one and it's different to the texture on the keyboard and the
0:30:57keyboard's texture is how the whole thing used to be.
0:31:00Yes.
0:31:02I have nothing to say about it.
0:31:04It's just, I was surprised by it.
0:31:06I think it's perfect for stickers.
0:31:09I think this thing is screaming for stickers.
0:31:12I thought that exact thing, and yes it is, because it is the most boring-looking thing in the world.
0:31:15It's just boring.
0:31:16It doesn't even have an Apple logo on it, which I was super surprised about.
0:31:19No, nothing.
0:31:20Nothing.
0:31:21And I was gonna say something.
0:31:23Oh, and it doesn't, I was surprised.
0:31:25I didn't ask about this.
0:31:27But the microfiber cloth inside, to keep the iPad screen clean, is gone.
0:31:36So I wonder what's going to happen in a few months with the keys that have been sitting
0:31:41on top of the display for a while.
0:31:44Probably nothing, because Apple thought about this.
0:31:46But I thought it was interesting that that is gone, because it wraps around, so of course
0:31:50there's no microfiber anymore.
0:31:52I didn't think it's harder to get it out.
0:31:55and I wanted to see it a second ago
0:31:57and look at the antenna lines.
0:31:58Like you sort of have to like hold it
0:32:00and it'll take some practice I think.
0:32:02But the immediate thing I don't like is
0:32:05if you're on your finger on the left side
0:32:07to hit the sleep wake button,
0:32:08the edge of the folio stands out a little bit
0:32:13from the edge of the iPad.
0:32:14And so like it's hard,
0:32:15like it's easy to basically push against the folio
0:32:18and not the button.
0:32:19Like it's just something about that
0:32:21feels a little sloppy to me.
0:32:22But you know, other than that,
0:32:24I think it looks nicer than the old Smart Cover.
0:32:28I think it's like more of a product in a way,
0:32:31like sort of more luxurious in a way
0:32:33that it's covered back and front.
0:32:35It's like a little iPad sandwich.
0:32:37But I don't have the problems with the keyboard you do.
0:32:40I am going to like returning to the wider one,
0:32:43going down to the 10-5.
0:32:45Keyboard is a little cramped for me.
0:32:46And this is basically the width of the keyboard
0:32:48I use at my desk.
0:32:50So I'm hoping that there'll be very little
0:32:52adjustment period for me.
0:32:53But I understand why you don't like it,
0:32:55and I agree with you.
0:32:56There should be more options from Apple on this.
0:32:57It's silly that there's just this one.
0:33:00- Or in general, there's none this time.
0:33:02Like, at least with the previous iPad Pros,
0:33:05Logitech have launched on launch day with products,
0:33:09and it doesn't seem like that's the case.
0:33:12Yeah, like the Create and the Slim,
0:33:15like they were both available day one.
0:33:18Or at least Logitech had information on day one
0:33:22About products which they do not this time. I haven't seen it today
0:33:27I'm going to their website again to see if I am since been wrong
0:33:30I wonder if that's about I wonder if that's about the new smart connector
0:33:33If there's something there, they've got a yeah, but you would assume
0:33:37That if Logitech would I don't know we're interested or if Apple were interested they would have just done the same deal
0:33:44They've done in the past like if you remember like
0:33:47Logitech had the create out before the iPad Pro ever,
0:33:52like they had that thing ready for day one of the iPad Pro.
0:33:56So the product had never been seen by anyone.
0:33:59They did a special deal with Apple, right?
0:34:01To get advanced information, right?
0:34:04To be able to build those cases.
0:34:06- And fun fact, this was three years ago,
0:34:10at my briefing for the first iPad Pro,
0:34:12Apple PR was giving out the smart keyboard
0:34:14and the Logitech create keyboard.
0:34:16And if you remember, there were no smart keyboards for a very, very long time from that period.
0:34:21Do you remember that? And like none in other languages?
0:34:24Oh yeah, it was only in one language. Yeah, I remember that.
0:34:27But like they were just back ordered badly. Yeah. The original Logitech Create was terrible
0:34:33because it was an ugly piece of plastic with cheap buttons and stickers on top of buttons.
0:34:39The only good Create was the 9.7 inch Create. It's the only good Logitech Key.
0:34:45And they also, they redid it for last year's iPad Pro maybe, and it was good again, but
0:34:51the first one was bad, really bad.
0:34:53Yep.
0:34:54It was a bad keyboard.
0:34:55They did the one with the like keyboard that could detect, it was just a nightmare.
0:34:58It was very bad.
0:35:00The Apple Pencil is amazing.
0:35:03I love it.
0:35:05They gave me everything I wanted by and large, like at least all the important stuff.
0:35:09The texture is nice to hold, it feels warm to touch now rather than kind of like slippery
0:35:14and cold. It has a flat side so it doesn't roll away. I've seen people saying, like,
0:35:21there was like, "Oh, it's actually a touch sensitive area." It's not touch. It's not
0:35:25a touch sensitive area. It's an accelerometer because you can touch anywhere on the pencil
0:35:30and it will change tools. You know what I'm talking about?
0:35:34When you double tap. Yeah, when you double tap on the pencil to
0:35:36change tools. I think I read somewhere...
0:35:40I read somewhere that somebody said it was touch sensitive, but that means the entire pencil is touch sensitive?
0:35:44No, no, no. I think maybe Panzarin on TechCrunch, maybe.
0:35:48There's a there's a special sensor toward the lower end of the pencil that basically receives double tapping.
0:35:59I don't know. I don't think it's touch.
0:36:01I don't know if it's just an accelerometer, though.
0:36:04I'm going to find it and I'm going to I'm going to follow up on this.
0:36:09Yeah, you know what, actually, it's like a band.
0:36:12It's like a band. I'm trying it out and like, it seems like it's it's
0:36:16it is just down the bottom.
0:36:18So there's something going on in the bottom, but it's not like
0:36:20at least it doesn't seem in the way that I'd read it.
0:36:23Like it's not like the flat side is a touch sensitive strip.
0:36:26Like there is no necessarily like touch sensitiveness about it
0:36:30other than like something's going on.
0:36:31But you have to double tap it and you can tap it anywhere.
0:36:34That's probably a better way of putting it.
0:36:36But I am very pleased with this new Apple pencil.
0:36:40I'm very excited about it.
0:36:42I love that it's always charging.
0:36:45I love that it's always there.
0:36:46I have noticed that like it is possible to attach it incorrectly.
0:36:51So because it's a magnet, right, you can kind of attach it
0:36:55to the left or to the right and it will stick on to the top of the iPad.
0:36:59But it is not secure.
0:37:01So you kind of have to make sure you get it direct.
0:37:04not you have to make sure it's in the middle because otherwise it won't charge and it won't
0:37:07be a secure hold. Oh yeah you're right. So you can put it to the left you can put it to the right so
0:37:12like it's more kind of towards the edge but then it's not secure. I don't think that's a problem
0:37:18but like it's just something to be aware of and I've already found myself using my apple pencil
0:37:24more again because it's more convenient to grab and it's always charged which my apple pencil
0:37:30never is because I would keep it attached to my iPad so the battery would drain away.
0:37:35So something that I noticed, I agree with you completely, I'm already using it more,
0:37:39something that I noticed though is that I kind of wish it was possible to also attach
0:37:45it to the shorter side of the iPad because if I want to use the iPad Pro in portrait
0:37:52and hold it with my hands, it gets in the way of the pencil and so the pencil detaches.
0:37:58And so I kinda wish that Apple made it so that you could attach it to the top side or
0:38:03the bottom side.
0:38:04I understand why they're not doing it, because the bottom side has the USB-C connector and
0:38:08the top side has the... they call it the top button, actually, in settings.
0:38:13And also there's the speakers on those sides.
0:38:17Still, I kinda wish that it was possible, because I wanna hold my iPad in portrait and
0:38:22have the pencil attached at the top.
0:38:25I don't think that's a wild idea.
0:38:26I think most people would expect that, but it's only one side with the magnetic connector.
0:38:31So fourth generation iPad Pro, please make it possible to attach the pencil on any side
0:38:37of the iPad.
0:38:38Thank you.
0:38:39You can stick it on the back if you don't have the keyboard cover on.
0:38:44Would you trust that?
0:38:45Yeah.
0:38:46I feel like I want to look at it.
0:38:49I want to make sure that I see it.
0:38:52I want it to be at the top.
0:38:53I'm going to stick it to the back, actually.
0:38:55I didn't think about that.
0:38:56I have the keyboard cover on, it sticks to the back pretty well.
0:39:00I should do that, but also I want it to be at the top so I can look at it.
0:39:04I just want to make sure it's there.
0:39:06Myke, let me ask you this.
0:39:09Did you get the pencil engraved for you?
0:39:13No.
0:39:14I wish I did.
0:39:16I wanted to, but I was concerned that having it engraved meant that I wouldn't get it on
0:39:22the first day.
0:39:23Alright, time to get a second one.
0:39:25Well, I already have two.
0:39:27Multi-pencil life.
0:39:29Oh, come on, have three.
0:39:32Two is one anyway, and three is two.
0:39:34So--
0:39:34Yeah, that's how it works.
0:39:36At some point, yes.
0:39:37And I will-- if I do, I will get Michael's right on it,
0:39:39because that just seems like fun.
0:39:41That's Marco's idea.
0:39:42But look, I have so many other thoughts about this,
0:39:47but it's too much for today.
0:39:49But like, Face ID is brilliant.
0:39:51It's super fast.
0:39:52I've barely tested USB-C. Like, there
0:39:55There's so much stuff like...
0:39:58So much more that we need to discuss.
0:40:00You don't put your finger on the home button anymore, but oh boy does it still love your
0:40:03fingerprint this thing.
0:40:04Oh boy, oh boy, still a fingerprint magnet, I'm hoping they would have fixed that.
0:40:10But I guess it's something, my assumption is it's something to do with the Apple pencil,
0:40:14which just means that it picks up, like that coating that they put on it.
0:40:17Yeah.
0:40:18But like, oh my god, this is the best, this is just like the best hardware.
0:40:22So what we're gonna do is we're gonna keep testing this of course, we're gonna talk about
0:40:27it next week more in depth.
0:40:29Personally speaking, I don't think I will do a full review on Mac stories because I
0:40:35don't want to keep people waiting for like two weeks, so my approach is probably going
0:40:40to be split it up in a series of articles, each about a different topic.
0:40:46So if you have questions about the iPad Pro, please send them to us, or if you have questions
0:40:51specifically for me, please send them to me, I'm going to be testing a bunch of USB-C accessories
0:40:57because thankfully I've been spending a lot of money in the past year preparing for the
0:41:02USB-C revolution, so I have a bunch of things that I can already plug into the iPad Pro,
0:41:06so I'm gonna test that and we're gonna follow up here on connected and we'll try and put
0:41:12together a series of posts on Mac stories, starting this week with the first one I think.
0:41:18So different approach this year, you know, different setup, different approach should
0:41:23be fun.
0:41:24All right, let's take a break.
0:41:25This episode is brought to you by Simple Contacts.
0:41:28I'm sure that you have a bunch of things that demand your time every day because you live
0:41:32in the modern world.
0:41:33You have work to do.
0:41:34You have side projects to get done with.
0:41:36You maybe have a video game you've been trying to get to.
0:41:38But luckily you don't have to worry about spending a bunch of time when it comes to
0:41:42renewing or ordering your contact lenses.
0:41:45Simple Contacts lets you renew your prescription and re-order your contacts online so you can
0:41:49do it from anywhere in minutes.
0:41:51They have a self-guided vision test that takes just 5 minutes to complete which is so much
0:41:55faster than taking off time to go and wait in a doctor's waiting room.
0:42:00A licensed doctor reviews every single test that is taken so you can skip the office visit
0:42:04but not the care.
0:42:06I do want to let you know this is not a replacement for your periodic full eye health exam.
0:42:11Simple Contacts is checking that your current prescription still helps you see 20/20 and
0:42:15will renew your lenses based on that prescription. They don't write new
0:42:18prescriptions or examine eye health but then every time that you need to get it
0:42:22renewed it takes so much time out of the process. Stephen I know that you've used
0:42:26simple contacts in the past too right? I have yeah and if like you said if all
0:42:29you need is contacts open the app and walk your way through it and then
0:42:33they're at your door and you know if you're like me and don't necessarily
0:42:37like going places talking to people it's great and they and I was impressed they
0:42:44had the lenses I wear which are a little bit of an unusual setup but they had them
0:42:48and they showed up and it was great. So I want you to go right now and find out
0:42:53more about this because Simple Contacts have all the brands and lens types that
0:42:57you're familiar with. Their vision tests cost just $20, the price of their contact
0:43:01lenses are unbeatable and their standard shipping is free. Plus on top of all of
0:43:05that I have a special offer for you. You can join the other 5,000 people who have
0:43:10rated Simple Contacts five stars in the App Store because their app's super great
0:43:13and get $20 off your contacts by going to simplecontacts.com/connected20
0:43:19and using the code connected20 at checkout. That is simplecontacts.com/connected20
0:43:25and the code connected20. That's 20. Connected20 and you will get $20 off.
0:43:31Thanks to Simple Contacts for their support of this show and Relay FM.
0:43:35All right, more topics. This list just never ends.
0:43:40- It does, it will eventually it'll end, but not now.
0:43:43- 22 pages down in Google Docs.
0:43:46So just because we are new to the iPad Pro
0:43:49doesn't mean everyone else is.
0:43:51There have been quite a few reviews out there.
0:43:54We've got some in the show notes
0:43:58and we're gonna talk a little bit about
0:44:01some of the themes I think we've seen in this.
0:44:03I think there are a couple of pretty clear ideas
0:44:06that a lot of people have had around this
0:44:10and I think a lot of it comes down to the conversation
0:44:12of hardware versus software.
0:44:15We talked about this last time,
0:44:16that this iPad Pro is ridiculous from a hardware perspective
0:44:21but a lot of people seem to feel the way that I feel,
0:44:23at least, is that I'm not hamstrung by the hardware,
0:44:27it's iOS that I find limiting in some things
0:44:30that I want to do.
0:44:32So I thought we could talk about that
0:44:34and I figured there's no better people on the whole planet
0:44:38argue with us, to argue with me about this than the two of you, since you guys are iPad
0:44:44first.
0:44:45I would like to make an opening statement on behalf of me and Federico, because I know
0:44:50he's going to agree with me. But I feel like we need to just say it. We don't disagree
0:44:55with that premise. The idea that iOS 12 isn't where it should be. We talk about this all
0:45:01the time, about what we would like to see in the next version of iOS. We spoke about
0:45:06it before iOS 12 came out. We've been speaking about it since iOS 11 came into the world,
0:45:11right? So there are definitely things that iOS is lacking. There are definitely things
0:45:17we believe and hope that iOS 13 will add. Like 100% that is the case, right? Like we
0:45:22agree with this premise. There is a problem though, in about some of the ways that these
0:45:29arguments get framed and get twisted that is then for some reason thrown back at me
0:45:35and Federico, and then we're just like, have to deal with being not professionals and that
0:45:43we have to jump through hoops all the time.
0:45:45These are the opinions that people have of what it's like to work on the iPad.
0:45:49So straight up, we agree with that sentiment, but there's a lot of nuance that is missed
0:45:55by people that don't use these devices to get their work done every single day.
0:45:59I have an opening statement to bounce off of yours.
0:46:02we're all in agreement with this, that at the end of the day,
0:46:06if it bothers you how someone else gets their work done,
0:46:09then maybe you need to go for a walk, right?
0:46:12This is not about, I think any three of us
0:46:16approach this as the iPad is gonna come in
0:46:21and take my Mac off my desk and I'm gonna show up
0:46:24and Tim Cook will be midway plugging in
0:46:26a USB-C cable to an iPad,
0:46:28with my iMac Pro in pieces on the floor.
0:46:30People get defensive about this.
0:46:32Mac users get defensive about this,
0:46:34I think in a way that is a little unbecoming
0:46:38and frankly, like rooted in fear
0:46:41that their precious Mac is going to go away.
0:46:44And I don't believe that.
0:46:46Like in the long term, maybe, but anytime soon,
0:46:49anytime of timeframe that makes sense to talk about,
0:46:54the Mac is not going anywhere.
0:46:57Apple wouldn't be making the investments they are now
0:46:59into it if that was the plan.
0:47:01Now long term, maybe that's a different topic, but we can argue about things that are going
0:47:06to happen 10, 15, 20 years from now, or we can talk about where we are today.
0:47:10I think that's what we want to do.
0:47:12The iPad isn't killing the Mac.
0:47:14If anything, it's the iPhone, because it's iOS.
0:47:17And iOS is led by the iPhone.
0:47:19Like the strategic advantages of iOS, Apple fills them in the iPhone primarily.
0:47:25If there is a big change coming, it is because the iPhone is so successful, not because the
0:47:30iPad is so successful. That's why they're that's what if they're gonna make any
0:47:34change that's why they're gonna make it. It's got nothing to do with iPad versus
0:47:38Mac. It's the impact that the iPhone has had on Apple has changed them as a
0:47:44company and that's kind of why we're where we are or where we could end up
0:47:48being. Yeah and so again like I think in this conversation it is about how we how
0:47:56y'all get our work done. It's that that is not that is not a broader statement.
0:48:03It doesn't necessarily have to be a broader statement on the way the whole
0:48:07world works or the whole the way the whole world should work but people get
0:48:11excited on Twitter and get get upset and I think that's just I think that's silly
0:48:17we can have a conversation about this without getting into that side of things
0:48:21which I think is what the three of us want.
0:48:23-Mm-hmm. So, you guys had opening statements.
0:48:28I just have statements.
0:48:31Or I just want to have a discussion about --
0:48:35No, I just want to get serious for, like, five minutes,
0:48:38if you'll let me, and have a discussion about the idea
0:48:41of iOS being limited.
0:48:45Because I think it's fascinating to observe
0:48:49of how this discussion is sort of generated in this corner of the media industry and how
0:48:56it sort of relates to my experience, my personal experience, but also to the experiences of
0:49:02people that I've talked to and also use iPads. And I think, like, the more I read these reviews
0:49:09and the more I see these conversations on Twitter on what makes a computer or not or
0:49:14the problems of iOS, I think it's pretty clear to me that iOS has limitations when it's compared
0:49:21to Mac OS. I think that's obvious. I also think, though, that there's this sort of odd
0:49:27tension between people who have grown up with iOS. So if you bought an original iPad and
0:49:36you were 10, you probably use your iPad for games or, you know, simple stuff. Now you're
0:49:4318, you're basically a young adult, and you're off to college probably. So you've sort of,
0:49:50you've grown up with iOS and you're familiar with iOS. Or maybe you're someone like me
0:49:55who grew up with a traditional Windows computer that moved to a Mac, that moved to an iPad.
0:50:01And so over the past almost a decade, eight to nine years, next April, you are familiar
0:50:10with iOS at this point, and you are familiar with the limitations of iOS.
0:50:14And there's that tension between these types of people and people who are still using computers,
0:50:21are still using laptops and desktops, and they want iOS to work like their existing
0:50:30Most of the day they use a laptop, they use a MacBook, they use a PC, and then when they
0:50:37try an iPad, maybe because they have a review unit or maybe because they're just curious,
0:50:42they get upset. And I get that. And I understand why. But if we follow this argument, imagine
0:50:51me for example, I could make the same argument for macOS after so many years spent using
0:50:58the iPad. When I use my Mac, and take that from somebody who's buying a new Mac Mini,
0:51:06an expensive one, because I need it, but when I use my Mac, I'm annoyed by the fact that
0:51:11I cannot touch the screen, I'm annoyed by the fact that it doesn't have the apps I want,
0:51:16it doesn't have, you know, the same quality iOS apps that I'm used to on my iPad, it doesn't
0:51:22have shortcuts, for example, it's got an automator which is so much worse, it doesn't, I'm not
0:51:28I'm sorry, just an opinion.
0:51:30- Sick Ben and Carian.
0:51:32- It doesn't, my MacBook doesn't have a cellular connection.
0:51:36I cannot hold the computer in my hands
0:51:38and walk around to read the book or read an article.
0:51:41And these are just some of the differences.
0:51:43So I think it's important to consider that
0:51:45those problems presented by the people
0:51:50who are trying to switch from Mac to iOS are valid,
0:51:55but also the opposite perspective is valid.
0:51:57that I'm used to iOS and when I try something else, I'm annoyed because it doesn't behave like the touch OS that I'm used to.
0:52:05And so I think it's interesting to have this discussion, but in a slightly different way.
0:52:09So rather than just saying "Is iOS too simple?" or "Is iOS too limiting?"
0:52:14which I think it's a generic statement that really doesn't nail the problem.
0:52:21I think it would be more useful to have this different question.
0:52:24Is the iPad a limited computer for switchers, for people who want to switch from a traditional
0:52:33computer environment to iOS, to an iPad, to an iPad Pro?
0:52:38And in this case, if we follow this slightly more nuanced question, I can see the problems,
0:52:44right?
0:52:45I can see the problems that iOS is facing, that the iPad is facing compared to a computer.
0:52:50It's a bunch of small things and it's a bunch of big things.
0:52:53things like, I don't know, easily renaming a file before sharing it, which you can only
0:52:58do in the Files app or in a third-party app, which is insane.
0:53:01Or like, even more than just that, like I have a file in Slack and I want to email it.
0:53:07Well first, I have to save it to a cloud service.
0:53:09Yeah.
0:53:10Right?
0:53:11Yeah.
0:53:12It's insane that you still cannot natively create zip archives on iOS.
0:53:18You need to use a third-party app for that.
0:53:22shortcuts that are inconsistent, but these are small things, there's also
0:53:25bigger problems, like the Files app is a very limited file manager
0:53:30compared to the Finder, or there's no concept of windowing and opening
0:53:35multiple tabs for the same app, there's no trackpad support, so you can
0:53:41use an iPad with a third-party keyboard but you cannot use it with a third-party
0:53:44mouse or trackpad, which I think is pretty problematic at this point,
0:53:49And of course Mobile Safari still doesn't work well with a bunch of websites or
0:53:54You know, you cannot watch 4k content on YouTube because Apple doesn't want to adopt VP9
0:54:00And of course, there's despite the iPad having a USB C connector now
0:54:05You cannot use a USB drive and browse your files in the app called files made by Apple
0:54:12so I
0:54:15think it's interesting to
0:54:18to imagine whether Apple is facing this very problem of being unable to choose if they
0:54:31want to please the iOS generation more, so the people who grew up with multi-touch, who
0:54:37are used to multi-touch and don't want to have any extra complications, like they don't
0:54:42want their iPads to be as complicated as a PC? Or do they want to please the people who
0:54:48are using a PC and want to switch to iPads? This fork in the road for Apple, I think,
0:54:56is what's going to be interesting to consider. Next year, with Marzipan, for example, and
0:55:02the path of the Mac and the path of the iPad, this collision of these two generations of
0:55:08people I think will be interesting. And then there's a second question, if you give me
0:55:14five more minutes, that I want to touch upon. So after the question of "Is iOS too limiting?"
0:55:21the question of "Can no professionals use iPads?" And that is even more interesting
0:55:28for me because I am... what is a professional? I saw this tweet from Nilay Patel of The Verge,
0:55:36who wrote an excellent review of the iPad Pro from the perspective of someone who doesn't
0:55:41really use an iPad Pro on a daily basis, this is not sarcasm, I totally get Nilay's criticism
0:55:49and we need more of these type of reviews. He said that the Verge review of the iPad
0:55:55Pro couldn't have been made on an iPad Pro because of photographers, video editors, and
0:56:02you know, a bunch of issues that the Verge team ran into when trying to get the work
0:56:07done on iPad Pro. And I think that's totally valid, but also it captures perfectly the
0:56:14current state of our discussion about computers and iPad Pros and iOS. On one hand, you got
0:56:22the media, you have journalists, you have bloggers, you have video editors writing for
0:56:27writing for blogs, for big publications, and they have workflows that have been
0:56:34built over the years, they have CMSs that have been designed on desktop computers,
0:56:39they require a PC. And those are, again, totally fine arguments, totally real
0:56:47problems. But on the other, you have professionals who actually use iPads, who
0:56:54actually use the iPad Pro. In the past year, since I started talking to people
0:57:00who, in a section of our Club Maxories newsletter called "iPads around the world",
0:57:07I set out to discover the ways that people use iPads. And I heard from
0:57:12doctors. I heard from a doctor who operates in the Australian Outback and
0:57:19and runs her business on an iPad Pro.
0:57:22I heard from engineers, I heard from illustrators,
0:57:26I heard from pastors and church groups,
0:57:29I heard from scientists who use the iPad Pro for lab reports and 3D graphics,
0:57:34I heard from pilots who use an iPad Pro for, what's it called, the flight maps.
0:57:40Used to be this thick books, you know, very heavy book,
0:57:44and now it's on an iPad Pro.
0:57:46I heard from someone who oversees the marketing for Broadway productions, such as Hamilton.
0:57:57It's wild the way that these different people from different parts of the world,
0:58:04from, you know, with different jobs, real professionals are actually using the iPad Pro.
0:58:10These people don't work in the media. You don't hear from these people.
0:58:14These are the silent iPad audience, the silent iPad users that actually do get the work done,
0:58:20really important work done, and you don't hear from them.
0:58:23So this is the state of our discussion, is that what makes the iPad Pro a professional
0:58:32tool?
0:58:33This question, this problem, is being raised by professionals who work in media and often
0:58:40don't have the kind of perspective of a doctor or an engineer or a pilot. And while I'm not
0:58:47asking, I'm not saying that Eli Patel should know all of these people right, that's impossible
0:58:52because I didn't know them either. I think it's important though to keep an open mind
0:58:55when saying the iPad Pro is not a computer or the iPad Pro is not a professional tool.
0:59:00I think it's important to keep an open mind and say well maybe there's someone who's actually
0:59:04using it as such. So that's how I feel like I would like these publications to be more
0:59:12open to that idea. And finally, I think that we can all agree on the fact that there are
0:59:20objective problems, objective issues that Apple should fix. We mentioned them many times
0:59:25on the show. Most importantly, I think Apple should incentivize developers to actually
0:59:31make Pro apps to make not just the iPad companions but actually real versions of desktop apps
0:59:40on the iPad. There's a whole list of things, right, like Apple should make their own Pro
0:59:44apps, they should open up USB drive access, they should offer third-party backup APIs
0:59:52to make actual stuff like backplays, for example, on an iPad Pro. There's a whole list of things.
0:59:58But most importantly, I think this whole discussion, while there are objective problems, there
1:00:06are also people who are actually using the iPad Pro as a professional tool.
1:00:10We don't hear from them, so all we can do, I think, is try to keep an open mind, recognize
1:00:18the problems, point out the problems, offer criticism because that's important, but also
1:00:25Try and not discount the iPad as a toy because you wouldn't, you know, people who work in
1:00:30Broadway, doctors and pilots, I don't think they see it as a toy.
1:00:35That's my series of statements.
1:00:38Thank you.
1:00:39So I think one of the things that is interesting and important to add as a point to that, where
1:00:44you're like, you know, like, we don't see these people so we shouldn't write it off.
1:00:48I can understand how things could be written off if this was a completely absurd idea,
1:00:53right?
1:00:54Like, I'm sure there are professionals that use Palm pilots today.
1:00:58Right. I was in the airport a couple of days ago and they were using a dot matrix
1:01:02printer to print something. Right.
1:01:04Like there are professionals still doing stuff, but that is absurd.
1:01:08Right. That dot matrix printers are still being used in nearly 2020 is where we're at.
1:01:14Right. But so like there are there are professionals everywhere that use all types of
1:01:19weird edge case technology.
1:01:20But I think that we shouldn't, I just don't think that anybody,
1:01:24especially who works in and around technology should be of the assumption
1:01:29that somebody could not get their work done on a powerful device like this.
1:01:33Like, yes, there are issues, but like how many people's work,
1:01:37a significant portion of their work is dealing with email.
1:01:41Like you think you can't deal with all of your email and it's like general
1:01:46communication amongst coworkers on an iPad.
1:01:48Like, and that is a perfectly valid thing to use this device for.
1:01:53And depending on the type of job that you're in, it may take up a massive part
1:01:57of your time. Like, over 50% of my responsibilities, like individual
1:02:03responsibilities, way over 50% of those are conducted on iOS.
1:02:06When it comes to actually time spent at computing devices, I probably spend more
1:02:10time in front of a Mac because the uninterrupted time of recording and
1:02:16editing podcasts is longer time, but individual jobs, roles and responsibilities, I do more
1:02:22of those in front of my iPad, as well as all of my just socialising time, right? Browsing
1:02:29Twitter and all that kind of stuff. So it ends up being that I spend more time in front
1:02:33of my iPad, but it's not all work is what I'm trying to say, right? So, you know, like,
1:02:38and that's because the type of work that I'm doing is like communications work is kind
1:02:43of been how I've been thinking about it or research and this device is perfect for that
1:02:48in some cases it's better because the app support is better and they're more new and
1:02:53it's more modern right and so this is just the thing it's like it's not an absurd thing
1:02:58to assume that people were doing this which just surprises me that people get so you know
1:03:05I got to see these tweets that are so like fixed in statement where it's like professionals
1:03:11professionals can't use the iPad. Like, alright, maybe you can't in your job and that's totally
1:03:17fine, right? But that's fine, but let's not be so presumptuous, especially when, if you
1:03:27listen to podcasts, you know that there are people that do it, because you hear us. Like,
1:03:34if you listen to the show, you can't say no professionals are using iPads, because...
1:03:40I think you must have paid attention before.
1:03:42I think some people honestly still believe that folks like you and I, we use the iPad to prove a point.
1:03:53And if you think that...
1:03:55What's the point that we're trying to prove?
1:03:58I think there's some people that seriously still believe that.
1:04:02Yeah. Like we made a decision and now we can't get out of it kind of thing.
1:04:07Nobody's forcing me to use an iPad
1:04:09Again, I'm buying a Mac Mini so
1:04:12For important parts of our jobs, right? Also if I wanted to prove a point
1:04:19I'm pretty sure the five years I would have proven my point
1:04:23Hobble my entire workflow just to own some some jerk on Twitter like
1:04:30Also, I
1:04:34I'm not sure how I feel about this sentence that I've seen in many reviews. It's still an iPad
1:04:41Okay, what if that's exactly what I want like for some people
1:04:47The iPad still being an iPad is an important factor
1:04:52There's people who if the iPad were to turn into a MacBook that would be a problem
1:04:58so I
1:05:00understand why
1:05:02that
1:05:04expression was used in many many reviews for these iPad pros.
1:05:08I think it's important, again, keep an open mind. I try to consider the different perspective of someone saying,
1:05:15"I want it to still be an iPad and not turn into a PC." Like,
1:05:20"I want it to be a screen that I can attach and detach from a keyboard."
1:05:24"I want it to, you know, have a SIM and cellular and all of these things."
1:05:27"I don't want it to have a desktop OS on it. I want it to run iOS." So,
1:05:34I would have liked to see more reviews from...
1:05:39and I'm not saying this because I didn't have a review.
1:05:42All right, let me say it then. Let me say it then because I tweeted it.
1:05:45I tweeted it because I felt like I just had to say it because you weren't saying it.
1:05:49I don't know why Apple think that their best PR strategy
1:05:56is to not put this device in the hands of people that admittedly use them every single day.
1:06:03Because if you do not use an iPad to get your work done every day, of course, if you use
1:06:11it for four days, you are not going to find it a satisfactory experience.
1:06:17Right?
1:06:18No, not at all.
1:06:19If you use a Mac to do whatever, if you have like a CMS, which does not play well with
1:06:25iOS, like you are not going to be happy.
1:06:28why when we make changes to our CMS at Relay FM, one of the top points is it has to work
1:06:33on iOS because I need to use it, right? Like we have like drag and drop stuff on our CMS.
1:06:42We have like the links that you see, they're added by this cool book, Marklet. I can drag
1:06:46and drop them in a web browser because we need that because otherwise I would be very
1:06:52upset.
1:06:53So like...
1:06:54Add them in the order you want.
1:06:56No errors.
1:06:57Yeah.
1:06:58So, you know, so I understand, but it seems very perplexing to me that there are people
1:07:05that have relationships with PR and Apple, like Federico, like Jason Snell, who admittedly
1:07:12use iPads every single day, but neither Federico or Jason Snell got embargoed review units
1:07:19to write a review on day one when the reviews came out.
1:07:22And that is really weird to me because it puts the perception out into the world because
1:07:28every review, except for John Gruber's that I read, read the same and they all made that
1:07:33point, which again, very valid point.
1:07:36But that's not a mix.
1:07:37You know, like I really enjoyed John Gruber's review because he just didn't talk about this.
1:07:41All right.
1:07:42And my assumption would be because he knows, he knows how he feels.
1:07:45He knows that everybody that reads his site knows how he feels.
1:07:49He doesn't use iOS for work.
1:07:50He might write on it, but he uses a Mac.
1:07:53He is a Mac lover.
1:07:54But he spoke about, and I loved his angle of just like, this machine is obsessively
1:08:00powerful, like way more than it needs, way more than it's going to need.
1:08:05But it just is because this is Apple kind of proving a point and showing what they can
1:08:09do when they make the silicon and comparing that back to the all the Macs that were released.
1:08:15Really interesting.
1:08:16refreshing because it was different because the rest of them all focused heavily and all
1:08:21the headlines were written. Like all of the headlines just were some variation of "yeah
1:08:28but it's still not good enough" right? Like because I can't make Google Chrome my default
1:08:32web browser. Like you know like I would love Google Chrome to be my default web browser
1:08:36but it's not my residing point about what using iOS is like. So...
1:08:42And the idea that I've seen some people on Twitter say well they haven't given... this
1:08:46is a ridiculous argument. They haven't given iPad Pros to iPad enthusiasts. I always see
1:08:54like some shade of like of sark of irony in that word enthusiast, but let's just use it
1:09:01in the...
1:09:02That's because you're an enthusiast, vlogger, right? That's your problem. You just can't...
1:09:04That word is it brings up bad memories for Federico Vittucci.
1:09:06I'm constantly cheering and clapping my head. What happened? I don't do that. I don't do
1:09:12do that. This argument that Apple hasn't given review units to enthusiasts because those
1:09:21people would have bought an iPad Pro anyway and instead Apple wanted fair criticism from
1:09:29people who don't use iPads. But then you wouldn't give Jason Snow a Mac Mini for review either,
1:09:33you under that logic.
1:09:35This would be like if you were like a Hollywood company giving advanced screenings of your
1:09:45new movie to people who are going to hate your new movie and are going to review the
1:09:49movie and give it like one star. It doesn't make any sense.
1:09:53That is a fundamental misunderstanding of what a PR strategy is, right? Like a PR strategy
1:09:57is to get the best thing said about your product. And it's like Rick Allen said in the chat
1:10:03the exact same thing. They gave Marco the Mac mini, right? Because they knew that this
1:10:07thing they knew they had made a machine that he would like, right? Like, and they were
1:10:12right. He likes that machine very much. You may know they did not give him a MacBook Air.
1:10:16Yeah, but you know, Apple PR works in mysterious ways sometimes and it's totally fine. Like
1:10:21I get it. Sometimes you get advanced access, sometimes you don't and it's okay. Because
1:10:28ultimately I work for my readers. I don't work for Apple PR. So I got an iPad Pro.
1:10:35I would actually say that for you it kind of doesn't matter in the sense of the traffic
1:10:40to your website. Because whenever you write an article about this iPad, it's going to
1:10:43get as much attention whether it was then or now. I genuinely believe that. Because
1:10:48people want to know what you have to say because it's always going to be different. I personally
1:10:52feel as well I prefer to read the non embargoed Federico Vittucci articles because you have
1:10:57the amount of time that you want to think through everything rather than just writing
1:11:01what a lot of what other people can write, which is like, here is what this device is
1:11:06like, here are the specifications because there's only so much you can do in three days.
1:11:10I was reminded of how the original Macintosh was reviewed. So I found this like roundup
1:11:15post on fortune. How would you remember that? I was reminded how how were you reminded?
1:11:24I have come across them before, I was not around.
1:11:27- Okay, sure.
1:11:28- And I remember the one because Dvorak
1:11:32like made fun of the mouse,
1:11:33and it looks like a big goofball in hindsight,
1:11:36but if you read through these,
1:11:38and granted this is like clipped
1:11:39to like find the most egregious things,
1:11:43there were complaints that Apple didn't understand
1:11:46what people wanted,
1:11:47or that Apple was forcing a vision on people
1:11:50and they wouldn't be able to do real work on it.
1:11:51I mean the Mac was considered a toy
1:11:54by large numbers of people in the computing community
1:11:58in the '80s because it had a mouse and a user interface.
1:12:03Whereas the command line, this is not a real computer.
1:12:05And we see how eventually everything became like the Mac.
1:12:10Microsoft moved from MS-DOS to Windows,
1:12:14and the world now, for a long time,
1:12:18has run on computers with user interfaces.
1:12:20I think there are strong parallels to the iPad.
1:12:23people who, yes, like to your point,
1:12:26there are people that the iPad is not for,
1:12:28because the iPad hasn't reached certain milestones
1:12:31that they need, right?
1:12:32Look at something like app development.
1:12:34If you're an iOS developer, you can't do that sort of work
1:12:37on your iPad, maybe one day that'll change.
1:12:39That was actually true of the Mac as well.
1:12:41To write Mac software, you had to have a Lisa.
1:12:43I was like, not a great look.
1:12:46But the point is that we are still,
1:12:48even though we're eight years in,
1:12:50We are still in the first era,
1:12:54maybe starting to see the second era
1:12:56with like iOS 10, 11, and the multitasking stuff,
1:13:00but we are in the beginning days of this platform still.
1:13:04And that means that there are people that it works for
1:13:08and there are people that it doesn't work for yet.
1:13:11And as time moves forward, the number of people,
1:13:16the types of things these devices can do will only expand.
1:13:19Now we can have a conversation about the rate of expansion.
1:13:22I think the three of us agree that Apple needs to move
1:13:24more aggressively here, especially when the hardware
1:13:27is so far ahead of the software.
1:13:29This is just how products evolve.
1:13:32You know, nothing, nothing, nothing in the world technology
1:13:37is birthed fully formed, right?
1:13:39Like the iPhone, the original iPhone was a joke
1:13:43compared to what the iPhone, even what the iPhone 4
1:13:45could do, and again, that was hardware and software.
1:13:48and the iPad is on that same track,
1:13:51again, moving probably too slowly,
1:13:53but you are, in saying that you can't do your work
1:13:57on an iPad, that may be totally true and legitimate
1:13:59in someone else's life, but by saying that no one can do it,
1:14:03you are projecting your situation onto other people.
1:14:08And the truth is, there are people who could do their work
1:14:10on a Macintosh in 1985, right?
1:14:13And it actually started with people doing the types
1:14:17the things that the two of you do on your iPad every day.
1:14:19Yes, you weren't doing development.
1:14:21Yes, you weren't doing crazy video production
1:14:24like The Verge needs for their reviews.
1:14:26But like, sort of lower hanging fruit tasks,
1:14:28like the iPad was really good at in the beginning,
1:14:30and then you slowly work up that chain
1:14:33to more and more complex things.
1:14:35And people just want to compare the Mac platform,
1:14:38which is 34 years old, to the iPad platform that's eight.
1:14:42That's an unfair comparison,
1:14:43and anytime you draw that line that way,
1:14:46The iPad will always come up short because it hasn't had the time to mature.
1:14:51I think that historic context is important when talking about platforms.
1:14:56It's one thing to talk about, "Oh, it has a USB-C port or it has Lightning.
1:14:59What does that mean?"
1:15:00But when we're talking about platforms, we're talking about what this thing is in the world,
1:15:05you have to have that context because the iPad does not exist in a vacuum.
1:15:09It exists in a world with PCs and Macs and iPhones and all these other things.
1:15:13And as it finds its ground, you have to remember that that takes time and pouring cold water
1:15:20on it too early, you're just you're doing yourself a disservice.
1:15:23You're going to look like Dvorak saying that the mouse was a joke.
1:15:26And we all know that how that turned out.
1:15:28That's very good.
1:15:29Thank you for that.
1:15:30Because like that that historical context is refreshing and like consoling to me.
1:15:35Honestly, it's like soothing my soul like that, that there are other people that have
1:15:40been through this before me in the Apple ecosystem.
1:15:43I wanted to share one last thing which I found very interesting.
1:15:47I as I mentioned, I shared a thought on Twitter that like I agreed
1:15:51with the criticism, but felt like Apple had done a disservice to the product,
1:15:56basically by not giving these devices to people that use them every day
1:15:59to to review them.
1:16:01And I and I had there was lots of lots of replies.
1:16:05I got to this and there were lots of different
1:16:08opinions, but there were a couple of things that were caught
1:16:12that I could I was seeing were happening an awful lot,
1:16:15which I just found really interesting.
1:16:18So like as well as the usual arguments, right, of iPads not being for professionals,
1:16:22the people that like want to take the iPad hostage and be like,
1:16:26I will not do anything until
1:16:29I like I want to buy one, but I refuse to buy one until Apple updates iOS.
1:16:36Right. Like this.
1:16:38OK, like I agree with that, but like it's fine.
1:16:41we don't all need to know but like whatever. But there was a there was a common argument which was
1:16:47being levied at me. People were demanding of me to tell them why this iPad Pro was a meaningful
1:16:55update. They wanted to know what features were new, they demanded to know what could be done on
1:17:00this iPad that couldn't be done on previous iPads and that I had to basically prove this is the only
1:17:06reason for why anyone would want to buy this device.
1:17:10And I found this really interesting because this is not an argument that I ever see for
1:17:16any other product.
1:17:18When I talk about the iPhone, I do not have people saying to me, "What can you do on this
1:17:24iPhone that you couldn't do on any other iPhone?
1:17:28It is only worth it if there is something new that you can do."
1:17:32And I find that so interesting. And I wonder where it's coming from. I wonder why it's
1:17:37happening. There's always requirements for people that they want to try and justify a
1:17:41purchase. I get that. But I never see this type of thing. Like, for example, the MacBook
1:17:47Air. Or the Mac Mini. You can't do anything new on those devices. You can do some things
1:17:55faster. You can do some things more efficiently. But the Mac Mini doesn't do anything that
1:18:00old Mac Mini couldn't also do. But we're not saying that you must justify what is new that
1:18:08can be accomplished via this Mac Mini for it to be a worthy purchase. And I found that
1:18:15kind of fascinating that this was like you can you can go to the tweet and you can look
1:18:20through the replies like I'm not blowing this out of proportion. This was a lot of people
1:18:24for asking me this question or a version of this question. I will put it in our show notes
1:18:30for you so you can see it. But it was kind of, it was very interesting to me because
1:18:37I was wondering, I've never seen something like this before and I couldn't really work
1:18:40out where this idea was coming from. I wonder if it's a combination of two things, the price
1:18:50increase, which we talked about last week, but also the issue of iPad hardware advancing
1:18:57at a different pace than software. So you get the beautiful new hardware, but the software
1:19:01is the old one. And maybe that creates this annoyance in people of, "Well, I'm spending
1:19:10more money on a thing that runs old software," if that makes sense.
1:19:15Yep, I agree with that.
1:19:16But again, like I feel like that there are like so all of the Macs
1:19:19that have been that have been released are in this exact same boat.
1:19:23They're all more expensive.
1:19:24Yeah. And they all have the same version of Mac OS.
1:19:27Mojave has been out for a bit.
1:19:29You know, like the iPhones are the same because iOS, the version of iOS is out.
1:19:34You know, like on.
1:19:35So like, what do you want me to tell you? What?
1:19:36Memoji? Like that's a thing, right?
1:19:38Like, what do you want from me?
1:19:40Like people, people get work worked up about the
1:19:45the iPad. Always have, and probably always will be.
1:19:48They always will, yep. And I think we know the reasons for that, right? Like, there are
1:19:52people that just think it's stupid, there are people that think that it's killing what
1:19:55they love, it's like this war of ideology, and it comes out in many different ways.
1:20:01Being through these waves of iPad excitement and iPad criticism since 2012, that's when
1:20:10I started seriously considering the iPad and in 2013 I switched. And it's probably, I think,
1:20:16a couple years more than you, Myke. And I've seen it all. On each iPad announcement there's
1:20:24the excitement of folks who really like the iPad, followed by a couple of weeks of this
1:20:29type of criticism, and then it quiets down and works on the iPad, keeps working on the
1:20:34iPad and every few months the argument reappears that the iPad is not a computer because somebody
1:20:41writes a blog post and everybody starts to pile on. You know how it works in the Apple
1:20:45community, right? Somebody writes something and suddenly it becomes a thing to discuss.
1:20:51So this will be over again in a couple of weeks and I want to see what Apple does to
1:20:59iOS 12.2 and 12.3, I do believe that some features like USB drive access shouldn't wait until iOS 13.
1:21:08That's... it totally can be an iOS... a point update. And it should be a point update. Just make it a
1:21:14destination in files. That's all people want, and it's something that Apple can do at a system level,
1:21:19they don't need to work with developers, it can happen. So I want to see what happens in terms of
1:21:24updates. But we've been through this before, it'll be over soon, it'll spark up again soon also,
1:21:31but ultimately we just gotta have an honest conversation about what Apple needs to do on iOS.
1:21:37Keep an open mind that some folks like working on a Mac, some folks like working on an iPad,
1:21:43and we'll be fine. So that's my guiding light, if it helps. I've seen it before, it'll happen again,
1:21:51But don't worry, it's going to be OK.
1:21:53I want to talk about something now that bridges the Mac and the iPad,
1:21:59and that is Luna Display, one of our final sponsor for this week's episode.
1:22:04If you have a Mac and you have an iPad,
1:22:06there is something missing in your setup, and that is Luna Display.
1:22:09This is something that could change the way that you interact with your devices,
1:22:11something that you'll be so excited to have in your life.
1:22:15That is Luna Display.
1:22:16Luna have given us maybe a little taste of the future
1:22:19because they give you the ability to use your iPad as a wireless display for your
1:22:23Mac that can also be interacted with touch.
1:22:26You heard me right, the iPad and the Mac that you already own working harmoniously
1:22:30together. Isn't that wonderful? Isn't that useful?
1:22:34You can connect over Wi-Fi or USB. Boom. More screen real estate.
1:22:38Just plug in a little piece of hardware into your Mac and you are good to go.
1:22:41And that is what Luna Display is all about. It's wonderful.
1:22:43This means you can have multiple screens even when you travel.
1:22:47you so you've got your laptop right but you can have your iPad with you as well that's two screens
1:22:51you don't have to lug around an extra monitor i mean that's like why would you who would want to
1:22:55like take a like an extra monitor and like a backpack you know go i got my laptop i'm on the
1:23:00train let's get the monitor out no we don't want to do that but you can use your macbook you can
1:23:04use your ipad together perfectly and don't just take my word from it like there lunar has been
1:23:10reviewed greatly everywhere tech crunch described the visual fidelity as frankly stunning apple
1:23:15insider said it is the first time a wireless solution like this has impressed them. I know
1:23:19that you're going to want to go and check these things out so go to lunardisplay.com that is
1:23:23l-u-n-a-d-i-s-p-l-a-y dot com lunardisplay.com once you're there use the promo code connected
1:23:30at checkout and you'll get 10% off that is lunardisplay.com and the promo code connected
1:23:36at checkout our thanks to lunar display for their support of this show and relay fm.
1:23:41So Steven, can we just like talk about CarPlay or something? Can we just do that now?
1:23:47I do talk about CarPlay. Thank you.
1:23:48Because I had a lot of questions about this. So I recently bought a pickup truck,
1:23:54which I just want to gloss over with the two of you.
1:23:55That's all we need to say about that. And it's a Toyota and it had Toyota's
1:24:02like entertainment center screen in it. They call it Intune, I believe. And to call it a dumpster
1:24:10fire is being generous to actual dumpsters that are on fire.
1:24:14It's just really bad.
1:24:16It has this fun thing where if you would use Siri
1:24:20or if you got a phone call and music was playing,
1:24:22sometimes it would just reboot.
1:24:24Like it was like, "Oh no, too many things are going on, ah!"
1:24:26And then it's like, your head unit would just restart
1:24:29while you're driving down the road,
1:24:30which is very concerning.
1:24:32And I just wasn't happy with it.
1:24:34And so I did a little research and this particular truck,
1:24:37It's got a standard double-din head unit,
1:24:42which means you can basically slot in another head unit
1:24:45with a little bit of work.
1:24:47So I did some homework, and I ended up with the,
1:24:49we'll put a link to this in the show notes,
1:24:51but I ended up with the Sony XAV-AX100,
1:24:56which is just rolls--
1:24:58- Oh, I know that one so well.
1:25:00- Rolls right off the--
1:25:02- Yeah, that's the best one.
1:25:03- It's my favorite one, really.
1:25:05It probably is actually.
1:25:08- Why can't Sony name their products?
1:25:11Why do they have such a problem with naming products?
1:25:14- You tell me, I bought the headphones.
1:25:17I don't know how to name these headphones.
1:25:20I don't know how to describe them to my friends.
1:25:23I just say, I got the latest Sony USB-C headphones
1:25:27because their name is something ridiculous
1:25:29like MX-AC something 3000.
1:25:32I don't know.
1:25:33It's just a bunch of numbers and letters.
1:25:35- It's ridiculous.
1:25:37I will say, this is not a plug,
1:25:39it's just the site that I went to.
1:25:41Crutchfield, like if you're interested
1:25:42in doing this sort of stuff,
1:25:43you can plug in what car you have
1:25:46and what you wanna do and they like,
1:25:47this is the head unit, this is all the wiring you need.
1:25:49It was really easy, I just ordered everything from them.
1:25:52Actually the head unit I got as an open box return
1:25:56at Best Buy 'cause it was a bunch of money off,
1:25:58which was cool.
1:25:59But, so I went with the Sony.
1:26:01It is a wired CarPlay unit.
1:26:03So CarPlay will work with wired and there are a couple of options for wireless CarPlay.
1:26:10If you're doing this aftermarket like I did, you're going to pay twice as much for the
1:26:15wireless CarPlay.
1:26:17The reviews I read for the couple that were compatible with my vehicle, the reviews were
1:26:22pretty hit or miss for something you're going to spend $700 or $800 on.
1:26:25Yeah, wired and wireless is like plugging the iPhone into a cable that goes into the
1:26:30car somewhere, right?
1:26:31Yes.
1:26:32Yeah, yeah.
1:26:33I have mine just right by the gear shift.
1:26:35And it's totally fine because I'm going to plug my phone in any way
1:26:39to charge it.
1:26:40So wired car plate is totally fine.
1:26:43I didn't see the need to spend twice as much and then plug in my phone
1:26:48anyways to charge it.
1:26:49So yeah, so I have a USB cable.
1:26:52And here's a top tip.
1:26:55If you use a lightning cable in your car, the Apple ones, for whatever reason,
1:26:59I've always had them really fall apart in the car,
1:27:01I think because of the heat.
1:27:03And so I switched to the Amazon Basics one,
1:27:06has like a cloth wrapped lightning cable,
1:27:09and I've never had one of those fail in a car.
1:27:11They're great.
1:27:12- Because it wouldn't melt, right?
1:27:13- Mm-hmm.
1:27:15They got several colors, I got a gray one,
1:27:16whatever, it's fine.
1:27:17So I gotta plug the phone in, and then carplay happens.
1:27:20The other thing that I got,
1:27:22I heard a little bit about this unit,
1:27:23is that it is a resistive touchscreen,
1:27:26so it's not capacitive.
1:27:28- Oh no.
1:27:28(laughing)
1:27:29No, bad, bad screen.
1:27:31(laughing)
1:27:32Get out, get out.
1:27:34- One, what was in the truck was resistive,
1:27:37and two, it is by far, this particular head unit
1:27:41that I put in, by far the most responsive
1:27:45resistive touchscreen I've used.
1:27:46Again, you can find them with better screens,
1:27:49but again, you're gonna pay a lot more.
1:27:51- Let me ask you, let me ask you real quick,
1:27:52I wanna try and put this in context, right?
1:27:55The most, what is the most responsive resistive touchscreen
1:27:59actually like, though? - I mean, that's a low bar,
1:28:02But it's, like, so, CarPlay, and then like the OS that's on the unit itself, there are
1:28:08several places like you could scroll and not just tap buttons, and like it's perfectly
1:28:14responsive.
1:28:15It's fine.
1:28:16And like, whatever, it's in a car.
1:28:17- Would you say it's better than a Nintendo DS?
1:28:20- I don't know if I have enough experience with a Nintendo DS to say.
1:28:24- Your kids have 'em.
1:28:25- No, no they don't, they're iPads.
1:28:27- They, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they,
1:28:28they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they,
1:28:29they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they,
1:28:30kids today they don't understand gaming consoles. I think you once sent us a picture of your
1:28:35kids playing with a 3DS. Not my kids. We have a Wii, but then no 3DS. Oh, you have a...
1:28:43well isn't the Wii resistive? No, we have the original Wii. Oh, not the Wii, you didn't
1:28:49have the Wii U. No one should have the Wii U. Hey-o! Some people do. Some people do.
1:28:58do real work on a Wii U. So it's fine. But the big reason I went with this unit...
1:29:02You can't do really anything on the Wii U. Never could. Junk. Sorry.
1:29:07Poor Wii U. Federico and Myke have a game podcast called
1:29:13"Remaster" you should go listen to for more Nintendo hot takes.
1:29:15We don't dunk on the Wii U as much as we used to. We used to a lot. Like a lot before the
1:29:20Switch. Kickin' a man when he's down, right? It was very bad. We developed this whole theory
1:29:25about how bad Nintendo's marketing team was. It was like a whole scene.
1:29:28So the reason I went with this is because the Sony XAVAX100 has a physical volume button
1:29:37and 9 out of 10 aftermarket carplay head units do not come with a volume button. They have
1:29:44like a little slider or you have to go into a menu and I wanted just a physical volume
1:29:50I know that seems wild, but this one had it and it had good reviews and it was in the
1:29:55budget, so I went with it.
1:29:58I like having a physical volume button.
1:30:01So do you not have volume controls in your steering wheel?
1:30:05I do.
1:30:06And so part of this is if you do one of these aftermarket you have to be really careful.
1:30:10That's why I recommend going to someplace like Crutchfield.
1:30:13Because they can walk you through, you need to do this wiring if you want your steering
1:30:17wheel controls to work.
1:30:19And in my Tacoma, the volume buttons on the steering wheel do work with the very elaborate
1:30:28wiring I had to do.
1:30:30But it's nice to be able to just reach up and turn it down.
1:30:34But if your car doesn't have volume buttons, then this is your, you're stuck with.
1:30:40And so I did install it myself.
1:30:41There are a couple Instagram pictures that I'm pretty proud of because it looks like
1:30:45the inside of my truck just sort of vomited all of its innards out, but it all works.
1:30:50I like getting my hands dirty, and it's expensive to have this work done. I figured I got a
1:30:54couple hours on a Sunday afternoon, and now I'll listen to a podcast and do a bunch of
1:30:59wiring in my driveway. So it all worked.
1:31:03That first photo is a little scary looking if you get nervous around wires. Don't look
1:31:10at that first image.
1:31:12warning for wires. It is very bad. It's just the insides of a car.
1:31:18It's a lot of stuff. But it all works. It all buttoned up pretty nicely. And this is
1:31:24my first experience with CarPlay. The only other time I've even ever seen it is I think
1:31:29last year John Voorhees picked me up at the airport in Chicago and his car has CarPlay.
1:31:35And that's the only time I've ever seen it. Like, John, I poked at his dashboard for a
1:31:39a minute and then he got annoyed that I was doing it and maybe stop but it's
1:31:43it's interesting so the Sony and all these aftermarket ones they have their
1:31:47own I'm gonna call it an operating system we're like it can do phone calls
1:31:51and Bluetooth and the backup camera it has all that sort of to itself and car
1:31:58play is like a mode that the unit goes into so if you plug your phone in and a
1:32:02carplay button shows up on the screen and you tap that and then you're in car
1:32:06play. does that make sense? yeah it does. my favorite actually is because I'm
1:32:10adding your photos to our show notes, I really find it funny that the finished
1:32:14picture is not actually in the CarPlay interface. I find that so funny like why
1:32:19didn't you open the CarPlay interface? yeah I don't know. Why did you do that? I don't understand.
1:32:24Because I've been putting tiny wires together for like six hours. I do have... yeah so we'll get to the
1:32:32CarPlay interface itself, but I really kind of like that image because it shows
1:32:37what I'm talking about. The CarPlay is just an app on this thing. Yeah, yeah, it's
1:32:40there. So I plug the phone in. iOS has a setting where you can change, if you can
1:32:45say does my phone need to be unlocked or not. So my wife drove it the other night
1:32:48and her iPhone 8, like it wouldn't work and so she had to unlock her phone first.
1:32:52So I turned that off on my XS Max. I could sort of plug it in to be done. There's
1:32:56hardly any settings for CarPlay itself. Basically the only thing you get is what
1:33:00apps appear in what order. So there's a screenshot of this in the show notes
1:33:04where, you know, CarPlay is really interesting to me like from a platform
1:33:08perspective because Apple like you have to be allowed to write a CarPlay app
1:33:13right like you can't just just do it and you have to have all these special
1:33:19permissions and so for me on my phone just you know with what I have to sell
1:33:23to my phone because I own a podcast company I have a lot of podcast clients
1:33:27I was like, you can install six different podcast apps.
1:33:30But you can control what goes on the home screen
1:33:34and what order it's in.
1:33:36And so you can see how I have mine set up there
1:33:39with the only third party apps are Google Maps and Overcast.
1:33:42And CarPlay is like, it's weird.
1:33:46It is an extension of what's on the phone.
1:33:50So like the closest analogy I could think of,
1:33:53and it's not a good one so forgive me,
1:33:54but if you think about your running Keynote
1:33:56and you have your slides on your iPad or Mac screen,
1:33:59and then you have what's going on in the projector, right?
1:34:02And the Mac or iPad screen is controlling
1:34:05what's on the projector, right?
1:34:06I think that makes sense.
1:34:08CarPlay is kind of like that,
1:34:10so if I am using CarPlay to listen to Overcast,
1:34:15so I have connected and this episode up on the screen,
1:34:19and I pull into my driveway, I put the truck in park,
1:34:22everyone's safe, and I pick up my phone to open Slack,
1:34:25Overcast will disappear from the CarPlay screen
1:34:29and it will go back to the springboard.
1:34:30It'll just go back to that grid of icons.
1:34:33But if I went into Messages on my phone,
1:34:35the Messages UI would show up on CarPlay.
1:34:37So they're linked in a weird way.
1:34:41And in a way, I kind of like that
1:34:43because it's like if I pick up my phone
1:34:46when I shouldn't in my car, it's like a reminder
1:34:49because the app that I was listening to music
1:34:51or the navigation goes away.
1:34:52And so it's linked in a way,
1:34:54it kind of feels fragile at times,
1:34:56but it's an interesting relationship
1:34:58that I just wasn't aware of,
1:34:59'cause again, I had only really used this one time
1:35:01for like 10 minutes, so.
1:35:03The phone and CarPlay are linked in a way
1:35:06that takes a little getting used to.
1:35:09But what's really nice about this
1:35:11is that your car suddenly becomes aware
1:35:15of what's happening on your phone.
1:35:16So you get an iMessage,
1:35:17you get a little banner on the CarPlay display,
1:35:19and if you tap it, you do not see the text.
1:35:24CarPlay will not ever show you what's being sent to you
1:35:28in iMessage, nor will it show you a keyboard to respond.
1:35:30It will read the message to you,
1:35:33it will ask you if you want to reply,
1:35:34and then you can reply.
1:35:35It's all done by voice.
1:35:38So I had to run a microphone so it would hear me,
1:35:42because the built-in system, like that microphone,
1:35:46doesn't work with anything else,
1:35:47so you have to run your own mic.
1:35:49And I can just, Siri can just read me my messages,
1:35:52And if I'm on the home screen,
1:35:55the messages icon gets a badge
1:35:57so I can see how many iMessages are there waiting for me,
1:36:01which is a nice touch.
1:36:03And it's actually pretty seamless to deal with iMessage.
1:36:06In fact, there have been a couple times talking to y'all
1:36:09where I've just had conversations with you
1:36:12when I'm stuck in traffic via Siri.
1:36:14And unless Siri just butchers what I say,
1:36:17you would probably never know.
1:36:19And I think that's a pretty nice feature,
1:36:21one that I've never had in a car before because before this I said like a
1:36:24Bluetooth connection to stream audio so it's nice to have that stuff but it's
1:36:29really done in a way that's not distracting like if you don't deal with
1:36:31that banner it just goes away on its own and you know there's there waiting for
1:36:36you when you want to deal with them it's never super invasive into your driving
1:36:39experience which is good. So how do you find yourself like interacting with it
1:36:47all the time. Do you have to dictate everything to Siri? Like, you know, you doing that or
1:36:53are you kind of just like, you'll get typically would you just get a message and leave it
1:36:58or like are you finding yourself talking to Siri and then when you do that, is it through
1:37:03the car or is it through the phone? Like how does that work?
1:37:06Yeah, I do. I am finding myself talking to Siri a lot more than I thought it would. And
1:37:10again, this is new. I've only had this in a couple weeks. So you know, maybe I'm still
1:37:13in the honeymoon phase. But if I get a message from somebody, so like the other
1:37:17day my dad and I were going back and forth and I had to go run an errand, like
1:37:20we just kept the conversation going when it was, you know, convenient for me to do
1:37:25so. And, you know, for like maps and other stuff you can you can use your voice to
1:37:31say, "Hey, I want to go here." But messages is by far the most interactive thing. You
1:37:36past that, I'm using Siri to play music. Most of the time, even like with
1:37:44Overcast, I'm just doing it on the screen. One thing that's really annoying and I
1:37:48don't know if this is CarPlay or if it's Overcast or if it's iOS 12 point
1:37:53whatever beta I'm on, but say that I've been playing Overcast just on my phone
1:37:58speakers in my kitchen. I walk out to my driveway and get in my truck, turn the
1:38:01key, plug the phone in, music will take over. Overcast will not resume
1:38:05automatically like it does over a Bluetooth connection which I find
1:38:09infuriating because most of the time I just want to pick up the podcast I was
1:38:12just listening to so then I'm going into overcast and finding it but Siri is
1:38:17definitely like the main interaction for me at least because there's there's
1:38:22actually kind of no other way to do it right there's no there's no way to you
1:38:28can go through the menus of music and stuff but if you want to deal with
1:38:30messages it's it's all Siri and again that's through the microphone that I
1:38:33installed it's up like on the a pillar by the windshield and it hears me great
1:38:38if I had some some some phone calls with it and like it sounds great and so the
1:38:43phone like the whole time the phone is just you know in the console off you
1:38:49know the screens off it's not doing anything unless I pick it up it is just
1:38:53acting as the brains of the whole operation I mean are you surprised about
1:39:00about any of this or is it kind of working
1:39:02as you would expect it to work or like require it to work?
1:39:06Like are you finding yourself being like,
1:39:08oh, that's really nice or is it kind of just like,
1:39:10yep, that's what it should?
1:39:12- Yeah, I think it does what it should.
1:39:14I think it seems really solid.
1:39:16It does some clever things where like in music,
1:39:20you know, on the iOS, you would like,
1:39:22you get the scrubber down the right hand side
1:39:24to like skip down to S for, you know,
1:39:26a band that starts with S or, you know,
1:39:27or like whatever letter you want
1:39:29without just scrolling and scrolling and scrolling.
1:39:31So that doesn't necessarily translate well
1:39:33to these type of touch screens.
1:39:35And so on CarPlay, if you do that,
1:39:38it pulls up a grid and you just tap the letter you want.
1:39:40So they've adapted the UI in places where it makes sense.
1:39:44In fact, there's a virtual home button on the screen
1:39:47to go back to the home screen,
1:39:48which is sort of funny because no new devices
1:39:51have home buttons.
1:39:52It's like this visual virtual representation
1:39:55of a thing that isn't really a thing anymore.
1:39:58But I would say it's pretty solid.
1:40:01It's weird that if you go to the home screen on your phone,
1:40:04CarPlay goes to its home screen,
1:40:05I wish there was some division of labor there,
1:40:07but other than that, I've been really happy with it
1:40:11and I think it's definitely way safer
1:40:16if I wanna deal with messaging when I'm driving
1:40:19than obviously than picking up the phone,
1:40:21which is like a terrible, dangerous thing
1:40:23that you shouldn't do, but most of us are guilty of it.
1:40:26And this has definitely basically cut that out.
1:40:29Like I don't, like even at stoplights,
1:40:32I have not like picked up my phone.
1:40:33Again, I know I shouldn't,
1:40:34please don't badger me about that.
1:40:36But I know that people just do that and--
1:40:40- There is also an argument
1:40:41that you shouldn't even be dictating messages, right?
1:40:44Like that is an argument. - Probably.
1:40:45- 'Cause it's like attention and stuff.
1:40:46I don't know. - Yeah.
1:40:48- I don't know what I think about that.
1:40:49I'm sure there's a lot of interesting studies,
1:40:51but like, but yeah.
1:40:52I've really got a point to that.
1:40:55And I can use Google Maps everywhere, which is great.
1:40:58- I'm jealous, I really wanna have car play in my car
1:41:00and just listening to you, it made me more jealous, so.
1:41:04- Well you know what you have to do.
1:41:05- There's nothing I can do.
1:41:06- Go to Crutchfield or whatever that is.
1:41:08- Nope, nope, I'm not gonna have car vomit in my car.
1:41:11- Oh man, I tell you what, when your Mac Mini gets in.
1:41:15- Not doing it.
1:41:16- Bring me out and I'll set up your desk,
1:41:20feel nice and neat, and I'll do your car.
1:41:22What is have like a day of wires together?
1:41:24you're like you're like the wire man should be your new title
1:41:29Steven Hackett is the wire man you know how they do like yeah he gets pretty bad
1:41:34in season four
1:41:37I started like cable manage appliances or like things that shouldn't be cable
1:41:44managed yeah it all goes wrong all of your characters get get like just messed
1:41:49stuff at that point. I will say connected audience I will be 100%
1:41:55disappointed if by next week's episode there's not a poster of this.
1:42:00The Wire Man seems like a movie poster that someone
1:42:04someone should make so slide into my DMS anytime. Is that it? Yeah I think so.
1:42:12Are we done? A bunch of stuff this week it was fun we talked about Max from 1995
1:42:18And we talked about carplay and then I sort of blacked out in the middle so it's a good show
1:42:23If you want to find links to the stuff we talked about head over to relay.fm slash connected slash
1:42:29217 while you're there you can get in touch with us via email or
1:42:34You can do it you can find us on what are we going to be found this week? We found on Instagram again?
1:42:39Yeah, I'm published. I put a link to this in the show notes
1:42:43I was putting loads of stuff on my Instagram stories about me unboxing my two iPads
1:42:47and I saved a story highlight of it so you can go and watch it. It's fun I think.
1:42:52I also want to be discovered on Instagram with my real username not John Borjes. I'm
1:42:58actually BTT on Instagram too. I forgot that you did that. So it's still V-I-T-I-C-C-I
1:43:05there as well. I am not John Borjes. He's a different person. So you can find Myke on
1:43:10on Instagram as I am YKE and you can find me there as Steven M Hackett for
1:43:16reasons. Do not look up Steven's... No it's better now. I don't know they blocked me so I don't know.
1:43:24So yeah find us on Instagram and you can find the show notes and I think our
1:43:29sponsors Squarespace, Simple Contacts and Luna Display for making this week's show
1:43:33possible and I'm gonna be out next week but the two of you will be back so until
1:43:39Until then, say goodbye gentlemen.
1:43:41- Adios, El Chirio.
1:43:42- Cheerio.